From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 30 18:34: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28A9537BDF1 for ; Sun, 30 Apr 2000 18:34:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([216.226.229.167]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA4DD4 for ; Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:32:49 -0400 Message-ID: <390CDDFE.7731235@asme.org> Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:29:34 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Interest in commercial compilers ?? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As you all know, Borland announced their C port for Linux some time ago and AFAIK they didn't mention a BSD port at all. Well...when a big fish moves the smaller fish have to do something about it. Thinking that it would be a good time for us to press for a port of KAI or Comeau C++ I visited their websites. Surprise! the C compiler market is moving, but not towards FreeBSD. KAI (http://www.kai.com/) will be bought by Intel RSN. Comeau computing (http://www.comeaucomputing.com/) has released a NetBSD/i386 port. I'm not too sure if I understand how advocacy works (who does...), but if someone would be eventually interested in buying these products, it would be a good time to drop in some email to those sites. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 1 18:20:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wat-border.sentex.ca (waterloo-hespler.sentex.ca [199.212.135.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF5DC37B982 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 18:20:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from granite.sentex.net (granite-atm.sentex.ca [209.112.4.1]) by wat-border.sentex.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA94386 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 21:20:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from chimp (ospf-mdt.sentex.net [205.211.164.81]) by granite.sentex.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA15456 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 21:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000501211615.045b7990@mail.sentex.net> X-Sender: mdtancsa@mail.sentex.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 21:16:54 -0400 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Mike Tancsa Subject: in the news... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG A short article at http://webserver.expert.com/news/5.5/n5.shtml about FreeBSD/BSDi. ---Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 1 18:37: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lunatic.oneinsane.net (lunatic.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2413F37B9F7 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 18:36:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net) Received: by lunatic.oneinsane.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A2A0B5DAA; Mon, 1 May 2000 18:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 18:36:44 -0700 From: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Reply-To: Ron Rosson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD lunatic.oneinsane.net 4.0-STABLE X-Moon: The Moon is Waning Crescent (6% of Full) X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net X-PGP-KEY: http://www.oneinsane.net/~insane/insane2-pgp5i.txt X-Uptime: 6:22PM up 3 days, 22:03, 2 users, load averages: 0.14, 0.04, 0.01 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just wanna share a little incident that happened today. My normal routine is to hang out on IRC and gleen information from the ones that what to give it on #FreeBSD and to share what I can to give it back. Today started out like any other day. people asked how to get there mouse to work while in thier console, some other guy asked how can he get his shell to work when he presses the up arrow key to get the previous command, etc. The two items were fielded by the channel in a helpful manner with a lot of poking about rtfm and using man pages. (This is one of the reasons why I enjoy the FreeBSD community) After awhile the channel got a little busier. A guy greeted and asked if anyone had heard if such and such a hardware was supported. One of the operators asked if he had checked the website. the gentlemen responded with a yes and that he also checked the /usr/src/sys/conf/i386/LINT file as well. The operator responded with a smart-ass remark and some vulgarity. and then banned the gentlemen. Now I know IRC is not an official place to get help for FreeBSD. But it going thru its moments where people are helpful and not. But the thing is it is easy to get to and it has some interaction in semi-real time. It is a public forum just as much as HTTP and NNTP. With that in mind there could be a little hint of advocacy in the channel instead of some people with arrogance and the power of the '@'. Just something to think about. Back to IRC I go entering #FreeBSD -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (Ducking the spray of saliva as you raspberry the screen) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 1 22:16:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wcug.wwu.edu (sloth.wcug.wwu.edu [140.160.164.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F3B4637BA3A for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 22:16:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tcole@wcug.wwu.edu) Received: (qmail 20741 invoked by uid 1085); 2 May 2000 05:16:54 -0000 Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 22:16:54 -0700 From: Travis Cole To: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net>; from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net on Mon, May 01, 2000 at 06:36:44PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I happen to share an office at work with the guy who got flamed and then kick banned on #FreeBSD. Yet another reason why I don't go to #FreeBSD any more. Its often times distressing how people can instantly turn against you there. :( On Mon, May 01, 2000 at 06:36:44PM -0700, Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson wrote: > Just wanna share a little incident that happened today. > > > > My normal routine is to hang out on IRC and gleen information from the > ones that what to give it on #FreeBSD and to share what I can to give it > back. > > Today started out like any other day. people asked how to get there > mouse to work while in thier console, some other guy asked how can he > get his shell to work when he presses the up arrow key to get the > previous command, etc. The two items were fielded by the channel in a > helpful manner with a lot of poking about rtfm and using man pages. > > (This is one of the reasons why I enjoy the FreeBSD community) > > > > After awhile the channel got a little busier. A guy greeted and asked if > anyone had heard if such and such a hardware was supported. One of the > operators asked if he had checked the website. the gentlemen responded > with a yes and that he also checked the /usr/src/sys/conf/i386/LINT file > as well. The operator responded with a smart-ass remark and some > vulgarity. and then banned the gentlemen. > > Now I know IRC is not an official place to get help for FreeBSD. But it > going thru its moments where people are helpful and not. But the thing > is it is easy to get to and it has some interaction in semi-real time. > It is a public forum just as much as HTTP and NNTP. With that in mind > there could be a little hint of advocacy in the channel instead of some > people with arrogance and the power of the '@'. > > Just something to think about. > > > > Back to IRC I go entering #FreeBSD > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... > The InSaNe One rm -rf * > insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > (Ducking the spray of saliva as you raspberry the screen) > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- --Travis "Linux is something for Windows haters, BSD is something for Unix lovers" (Heike S., Febr. 98) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 1 22:39:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29DCA37B865 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 22:39:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000502053943.LZMJ13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Mon, 1 May 2000 22:39:43 -0700 Message-ID: <000901bfb3f8$c6d6f220$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Ron Rosson" , References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 22:39:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >After awhile the channel got a little busier. A guy greeted and asked if > anyone had heard if such and such a hardware was supported. One of the > operators asked if he had checked the website. the gentlemen responded > with a yes and that he also checked the /usr/src/sys/conf/i386/LINT file > as well. The operator responded with a smart-ass remark and some > vulgarity. and then banned the gentlemen. > > Now I know IRC is not an official place to get help for FreeBSD. But it > going thru its moments where people are helpful and not. But the thing > is it is easy to get to and it has some interaction in semi-real time. > It is a public forum just as much as HTTP and NNTP. With that in mind > there could be a little hint of advocacy in the channel instead of some > people with arrogance and the power of the '@'. > > Just something to think about. No, just something to think about would be this. There IS a help channel for FreeBSD on EfNet in which it IS safe to ask questions. It's called #freebsdhelp. The people asking for help in #freebsd are violating the channel rules and are defeating the whole purpose of having #freebsdhelp. Next time you see people asking for help in #freebsd, refer them to #freebsdhelp before they get banned. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 1 22:43:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32D2C37B89C for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 22:43:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000502054356.MCHY13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Mon, 1 May 2000 22:43:56 -0700 Message-ID: <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Travis Cole" , "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" Cc: References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 22:43:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I happen to share an office at work with the guy who got flamed and > then kick banned on #FreeBSD. > > Yet another reason why I don't go to #FreeBSD any more. Its often > times distressing how people can instantly turn against you there. > > :( Once again, let me spell it out for you guys. #freebsdhelp Did you get that number ? Lemme share it again. #freebsdhelp. Just because people are in a freebsd chat channel does not mean they should have to endure massive amounts of repetitive questions. That's why there's a help channel. Get a clue or stop complaining. There's also www.defcon1.org, www.freebsd-howto.org, and www.freebsd.org/handbook There's plenty of help out there without abusing the knowlegable people on IRC, who want to come on IRC and talk to other knowlegable people without being plagued by beginners. Those who CHOOSE to share their knowlege and information with people are in #freebsdhelp. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 1 22:49:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from area51.slashnet.org (area51.slashnet.org [208.222.214.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BE6237B9E4 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 22:49:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smkelly@zombie.org) Received: from edgemaster.zombie.org (cx497943-c.omhaw1.ne.home.com [24.7.36.238]) by area51.slashnet.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B66214D554; Tue, 2 May 2000 01:49:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by edgemaster.zombie.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2E984AE6D3; Tue, 2 May 2000 00:50:33 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 00:50:33 -0500 From: Sean Kelly To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: Ron Rosson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000502005033.A68966@edgemaster.zombie.org> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <000901bfb3f8$c6d6f220$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <000901bfb3f8$c6d6f220$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com>; from jgowdy@home.com on Mon, May 01, 2000 at 10:39:25PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, May 01, 2000 at 10:39:25PM -0700, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > No, just something to think about would be this. There IS a help channel > for FreeBSD on EfNet in which it IS safe to ask questions. It's called > #freebsdhelp. The people asking for help in #freebsd are violating the > channel rules and are defeating the whole purpose of having #freebsdhelp. > Next time you see people asking for help in #freebsd, refer them to > #freebsdhelp before they get banned. Just thinking aloud here, but when the #FreeBSD channel was made, the founders should have known that people who needed help would randomly try to join a #freebsd channel and ask for help. Wouldn't a more logical naming scheme would be to have the help channel be #FreeBSD and the convo channel be #FreeBSD-Talk? You have to understand that it's not the users' fault that the names are so undescriptive and generic. If it really bothers you that much, make some sort of bot that sends a notice to people when they join that warns them that they will be banned and refers them to #FreeBSDHelp. -- Sean Kelly or PGP KeyID: 77042C7B ICQ UIN: 27955995 EFAX: (603) 372-1638 IRC: drdink@SlashNET To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 1 22:52:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B935537B865 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 22:52:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 565311C4D; Tue, 2 May 2000 01:52:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 01:52:51 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000502015251.S86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net>; from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net on Mon, May 01, 2000 at 06:36:44PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, May 01, 2000 at 06:36:44PM -0700, Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson wrote: > The operator responded with a smart-ass remark and some vulgarity. and then > banned the gentlemen. http://www.freebsd.org/FAQ/preface.html#AEN210 I have a patch to mention #FreeBSDhelp in the FAQ but haven't committed it for time constraints. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect Computer Horizons Corp - CVM e-mail: billf@chc-chimes.com / billf@FreeBSD.org Office: 800-252-2421 x128 / Cell: 248-761-7272 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 1 22:55: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05E737BAB2 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 22:55:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D30F31C4D; Tue, 2 May 2000 01:55:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 01:55:01 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Sean Kelly Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Ron Rosson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000502015501.T86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <000901bfb3f8$c6d6f220$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502005033.A68966@edgemaster.zombie.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000502005033.A68966@edgemaster.zombie.org>; from smkelly@slashnet.org on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 12:50:33AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 02, 2000 at 12:50:33AM -0500, Sean Kelly wrote: > You have to understand that it's not the users' fault that the names are so > undescriptive and generic. If it really bothers you that much, make some sort > of bot that sends a notice to people when they join that warns them that they > will be banned and refers them to #FreeBSDHelp. The topic 90% of the time is a wiseass remark about how #freebsdhelp cares and we (#freebsd) don't. It could be named #freebsdnewbiehelp and we could still kick people who ask questions. That's the neat thing about IRC. Anarchy with rules. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect Computer Horizons Corp - CVM e-mail: billf@chc-chimes.com / billf@FreeBSD.org Office: 800-252-2421 x128 / Cell: 248-761-7272 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 1 23: 0:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDEFB37BC73 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 23:00:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000502060011.MOHY13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Mon, 1 May 2000 23:00:11 -0700 Message-ID: <002d01bfb3fb$a2e5de00$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Sean Kelly" Cc: "Ron Rosson" , References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <000901bfb3f8$c6d6f220$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502005033.A68966@edgemaster.zombie.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 22:59:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Just thinking aloud here, but when the #FreeBSD channel was made, the founders > should have known that people who needed help would randomly try to join a > #freebsd channel and ask for help. Wouldn't a more logical naming scheme would > be to have the help channel be #FreeBSD and the convo channel be #FreeBSD-Talk? > > You have to understand that it's not the users' fault that the names are so > undescriptive and generic. If it really bothers you that much, make some sort > of bot that sends a notice to people when they join that warns them that they > will be banned and refers them to #FreeBSDHelp. Ignorance kills. They don't accept stupid questions in #linux, or #eggdrop either. They all have associated help channels. Get a clue. IRC is not for the weak. If you can't take an occational kick/ban go back to AOL or DalNet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 1 23:22:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lunatic.oneinsane.net (lunatic.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7734037BAB7 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 23:22:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net) Received: by lunatic.oneinsane.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E22CD5DA4; Mon, 1 May 2000 23:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 23:22:01 -0700 From: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000501232201.B79190@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Reply-To: Ron Rosson References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com>; from jgowdy@home.com on Mon, May 01, 2000 at 10:43:38PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD lunatic.oneinsane.net 4.0-STABLE X-Moon: The Moon is Waning Crescent (5% of Full) X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net X-PGP-KEY: http://www.oneinsane.net/~insane/insane2-pgp5i.txt X-Uptime: 11:14PM up 4 days, 2:55, 2 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 01 May 2000, Jeremiah Gowdy was heard blurting out: > > I happen to share an office at work with the guy who got flamed and > > then kick banned on #FreeBSD. > > > > Yet another reason why I don't go to #FreeBSD any more. Its often > > times distressing how people can instantly turn against you there. > > > > :( > > Once again, let me spell it out for you guys. #freebsdhelp > Did you get that number ? Lemme share it again. #freebsdhelp. Just > because people are in a freebsd chat channel does not mean they should have > to endure massive amounts of repetitive questions. That's why there's a > help channel. Get a clue or stop complaining. There's also > www.defcon1.org, www.freebsd-howto.org, and www.freebsd.org/handbook > There's plenty of help out there without abusing the knowlegable people on > IRC, who want to come on IRC and talk to other knowlegable people without > being plagued by beginners. Those who CHOOSE to share their knowlege and > information with people are in #freebsdhelp. Let me spell it out to you. I have nothing against #freebsdhelp or anyone for that matter on #freebsd. The issue I was trying to make is that it is a public forum and that by it being that can tur a newbie off quicker than anything. Shoot look in at this thread that I started, some people have answered politely and civil where others haven't. For christ sakes this will be in the search database and probably propagated to other search engines. I guess what I am getting it is there is a civil way and the wrong way. I want people to come to FreeBSD from those other OS's but not be turned away because someone wants to be a smart ass to someone who was misinformed or just plain new. Now back to #FreeBSD I go ;-) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks to MS Word, viruses are more portable than ever! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 0: 3:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wcug.wwu.edu (sloth.wcug.wwu.edu [140.160.164.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D1CE437B917 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 00:03:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tcole@wcug.wwu.edu) Received: (qmail 25505 invoked by uid 1085); 2 May 2000 07:03:17 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 00:03:17 -0700 From: Travis Cole To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0i In-Reply-To: <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com>; from jgowdy@home.com on Mon, May 01, 2000 at 10:43:38PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, May 01, 2000 at 10:43:38PM -0700, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > I happen to share an office at work with the guy who got flamed and > > then kick banned on #FreeBSD. > > > > Yet another reason why I don't go to #FreeBSD any more. Its often > > times distressing how people can instantly turn against you there. > > > > :( > > Once again, let me spell it out for you guys. #freebsdhelp > Did you get that number ? Lemme share it again. #freebsdhelp. Just > because people are in a freebsd chat channel does not mean they should have > to endure massive amounts of repetitive questions. That's why there's a > help channel. Get a clue or stop complaining. There's also > www.defcon1.org, www.freebsd-howto.org, and www.freebsd.org/handbook > There's plenty of help out there without abusing the knowlegable people on > IRC, who want to come on IRC and talk to other knowlegable people without > being plagued by beginners. Those who CHOOSE to share their knowlege and > information with people are in #freebsdhelp. Well, the thing is neither I nor my coworker are FreeBSD or Unix newbies by any means. We are professional Sysadmins for a rather large internet company and are responsible for several hundred unix hosts, including many (more than 30) FreeBSD web servers. My point being we are not clueless newbies asking lame questions which are plainly documented in the FAQ or handbook. The answer to my coworkers questions were not documented in the FAQ, Handbook, LINT or any other remotely obvious place. Unfortunately the FreeBSD project is a bit slow on documenting what hardware is supported (yeah, I know I should quit bitching and help). So the only other way to answer such a question (is hardware product X supported) is to search the commit logs, which may or may not come up with your answer, grep the source which is also imperfect, or ask someone who may know because they are a member of the project (yes, also imperfect). #FreeBSD seems like a natural place to ask such a question since many project members spend time there. But that assumption is apparently quite wrong. Sorry, I won't make the mistake of asking questions on #FreeBSD no matter how intelligent or stupid they may be. Just a bit annoyed how people seem to assume one is a total Unix of FreeBSD newbie moron if they ask questions. Not just dumb questions, questions, any questions at all. -- --Travis "Linux is something for Windows haters, BSD is something for Unix lovers" (Heike S., Febr. 98) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 1:15:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.Surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B851B37BA5C for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 01:15:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (p3E9C1148.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.156.17.72]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA31414; Tue, 2 May 2000 08:39:34 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01FF6AC2C; Tue, 2 May 2000 09:45:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA03316; Tue, 2 May 2000 09:40:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:40:46 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Travis Cole Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000502094046.B2489@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu>; from tcole@wcug.wwu.edu on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 12:03:17AM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake Travis Cole (tcole@wcug.wwu.edu): > #FreeBSD seems like a natural place to ask such a question since > many project members spend time there. You are right. @-abuse is common on Unix-channels. That has something to do with the broken social life of these guys. Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 3:24:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA92637B5D7 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 03:24:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e42ANaK28233; Tue, 2 May 2000 06:23:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 06:23:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC In-Reply-To: <20000501232201.B79190@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG these are precisely the reasons I left #freebsd months ago. too much ego, not enough advocacy. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Mon, 1 May 2000, Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson wrote: > On Mon, 01 May 2000, Jeremiah Gowdy was heard blurting out: > > > > I happen to share an office at work with the guy who got flamed and > > > then kick banned on #FreeBSD. > > > > > > Yet another reason why I don't go to #FreeBSD any more. Its often > > > times distressing how people can instantly turn against you there. > > > > > > :( > > > > Once again, let me spell it out for you guys. #freebsdhelp > > Did you get that number ? Lemme share it again. #freebsdhelp. Just > > because people are in a freebsd chat channel does not mean they should have > > to endure massive amounts of repetitive questions. That's why there's a > > help channel. Get a clue or stop complaining. There's also > > www.defcon1.org, www.freebsd-howto.org, and www.freebsd.org/handbook > > There's plenty of help out there without abusing the knowlegable people on > > IRC, who want to come on IRC and talk to other knowlegable people without > > being plagued by beginners. Those who CHOOSE to share their knowlege and > > information with people are in #freebsdhelp. > > Let me spell it out to you. I have nothing against #freebsdhelp or > anyone for that matter on #freebsd. The issue I was trying to make is > that it is a public forum and that by it being that can tur a newbie off > quicker than anything. > > Shoot look in at this thread that I started, some people have answered > politely and civil where others haven't. For christ sakes this will be > in the search database and probably propagated to other search engines. > > I guess what I am getting it is there is a civil way and the wrong way. > I want people to come to FreeBSD from those other OS's but not be turned > away because someone wants to be a smart ass to someone who was > misinformed or just plain new. > > Now back to #FreeBSD I go ;-) > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... > The InSaNe One rm -rf * > insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Thanks to MS Word, viruses are more portable than ever! > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 6:40: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from red-tide.andover.net (red-tide.andover.net [209.192.217.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0157637B711 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 06:39:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pat@andover.net) Received: from localhost (pat@localhost) by red-tide.andover.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA11268 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 09:39:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from pat@andover.net) X-Authentication-Warning: red-tide.andover.net: pat owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:39:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: The 'Open' release (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG this just crossed the wires this morning, notice Andover's mention of FreeBSD (see, I told you they wouldn;t get to me, and I'd eventually get to them ;)) -Pat -- Pat Lynch=09=09=09=09=09pat@andover.net Senior Systems Administrator=09=09=09 Andover.net Andover.Net Launches Print Magazine To Cover Open Source Revolution=20 Internet's Leading Open Source and Linux Destination Goes to Press with =91= Open=92 ACTON, Mass.--May 2, 2000--Andover.Net (NASDAQ: ANDN), the leading Internet= =20 destination for Linux and Open Source computing, today announced the launch= =20 of Open magazine, which will premiere in August. Editorial content in the= =20 new monthly will feature benchmarked product reviews, technology briefings= =20 and detailed case studies that reveal the dramatic changes Open Source is= =20 making on information technology. =93Andover.Net created a powerful vertical portal for a community building= =20 enterprise computing strategies on Open Source software,=94 says Bill Dwyer= ,=20 Andover.Net=92s Vice President of Publishing. Dwyer notes: =93Our leading L= inux=20 and Open Source sites, Slashdot.org and Freshmeat.net, already recognize=20 the =91three C=92s of successful web publishing: Community, Content and=20 Commerce. But the market is adding a fourth =91C=92=85Change. For some time= , the=20 only operating system to gain on Microsoft in market share has been Linux.= =20 NextApache, also Open Source, became the number one web server. Now the=20 hottest niche in the storage market, Network Attached Storage, is being=20 enabled by Open Source operating systems like Linux and FreeBSD. That=20 leaves a lot of decision makers, who must align business goals with=20 technology strategies, struggling to stay on top of the change. We=92ll be= =20 there in print as well as on the Web to help them work through the confusio= n.=94 =93The magazine=92s mission is to bridge technology and business issues for= =20 technologists building IT strategies upon Open Source products,=94 says Dr.= =20 Jack Fegreus, Editorial Director of Open. A key component of the editorial= =20 package will be OpenBench Labs, which will not only review products but=20 will also assess the business benefits of IT technologies, providing better= =20 context for key technology planners. According to Dr. Fegreus, all of the= =20 benchmarks utilized by OpenBench Labs will be Open Source software=20 projects. =93This will enable all of our readers to go far beyond simply=20 replicating everything we do. Now they will have the opportunity to=20 actively participate in designing the logic and methodology of all of our= =20 testing.=94 Michael Lamattina, publisher of Open, says Andover.Net=92s first magazine= =20 challenges traditional publishing strategy in that it inverts the=20 traditional relationship between print and Web-based media. According to=20 Lamattina, =93Traditional magazine publishers focus their energies on print= =20 media and relegate the Internet to supplementing print material and=20 archiving past issues. At Andover.Net, we start on the Web with two-way=20 flow of information and then follow that up with the print magazine. This= =20 gives us a truly comprehensive information system.=94 Commenting on the launch, Lamattina notes, =93We can deliver breaking news = in=20 the blink of an eye and provide our readers with electronic forums and=20 peer-to-peer communication via the Web. Now with the magazine, we can=20 fulfill their most detailed information needs. What=92s more, in the true= =20 spirit of the Open Movement, we can utilize the Web to enable Open=92s=20 readers--many of whom are key decision makers--to engage in an open=20 dialogue for guiding content. This complements Andover.Net=92s new Corporat= e=20 Services program in identifying and communicating with key decision makers= =20 adopting Open Source development methods.=94 Open will be free of charge for qualified IT professionals. Subscriptions= =20 are available on www.openmagazine.net. The new site also maintains=20 information for advertising and PR agencies. About Andover.Net Andover.Net (NASDAQ: ANDN) is the leading Linux destination on the=20 Internet. Serving 60 million page impressions to over 3 million users each= =20 month, Andover.Net (andover.net) includes the largest news/community site,= =20 Slashdot (slashdot.org); the largest site for programmer resources,=20 Freshmeat.net (www.freshmeat.net); QuestionExchange=20 (www.questionexchange.com), providing online Linux support; and the popular= =20 developer e-commerce site, ThinkGeek (www.thinkgeek.com). With these sites= =20 and our other Linux sites such as FreeCode (www.freecode.com) and=20 LinuxDaveCentral (linux.davecentral.com), Andover.Net accounts for over 50%= =20 of the visits to Linux destinations on the Internet. Andover.Net also=20 includes cross-platform sites such as MediaBuilder (www.mediabuilder.com)= =20 that provide programmer and developer resources for users of many popular= =20 operating systems in addition to Linux such as Windows, UNIX and Macintosh. ### Except for the historical information contained herein, the matters=20 discussed in this news release are forward-looking statements involving=20 risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ=20 materially from those in such forward-looking statements. Potential risks= =20 and uncertainties include, but are not limited to, Andover.Net's limited=20 operating history, expectation that Andover will incur substantial losses= =20 in the future; Andover's reliance on Linux/Open Source community; Andover's= =20 heavy reliance on advertising revenues; intense competition and other risks= =20 listedin Andover.Net's S-1 registration statement. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 7:47:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wondermutt.net (host75-157.student.udel.edu [128.175.75.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1312C37B55B for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 07:47:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@jpepconsulting.com) Received: from morgaine.jpepconsulting.com (morgaine.wondermutt.net [192.168.1.2]) by wondermutt.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16059; Tue, 2 May 2000 10:48:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john@jpepconsulting.com) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000502103522.00ab5320@mail.udel.edu> X-Sender: john@mail.jpepconsulting.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 10:43:06 -0400 To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" , "Sean Kelly" From: John Papalia Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Cc: "Ron Rosson" , In-Reply-To: <002d01bfb3fb$a2e5de00$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <000901bfb3f8$c6d6f220$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502005033.A68966@edgemaster.zombie.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Just thinking aloud here, but when the #FreeBSD channel was made, the >founders > > should have known that people who needed help would randomly try to join a > > #freebsd channel and ask for help. Wouldn't a more logical naming scheme >would > > be to have the help channel be #FreeBSD and the convo channel be >#FreeBSD-Talk? > > > > You have to understand that it's not the users' fault that the names are >so > > undescriptive and generic. If it really bothers you that much, make some >sort > > of bot that sends a notice to people when they join that warns them that >they > > will be banned and refers them to #FreeBSDHelp. > >Ignorance kills. They don't accept stupid questions in #linux, or #eggdrop >either. They all have associated help channels. Get a clue. IRC is not >for the weak. If you can't take an occational kick/ban go back to AOL or >DalNet What's with the "get a clue" campaign? The FAQ on freebsd.org says that #freebsd is NOT a tech support channel, however it makes NO mention that there is a channel called #freebsdhelp. Also, every visit of mine to #FreeBSD yields people who simply don't even want to say hello, let along direct you to the right place. Top that off with a channel topic that, as I've seen every time to date, also makes no mention of #freebsdhelp. So, don't you think it would be more HELPFUL to provide the information, instead of just demanding clue-acquistion? You'd be amazed at how many people stop bugging you with questions you don't want to hear then. Just my two cents. --john To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 8:20:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 836AC37B8FE for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 08:20:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000502152014.WLIU13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Tue, 2 May 2000 08:20:14 -0700 Message-ID: <001701bfb449$e103d400$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Travis Cole" Cc: "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" , References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 08:19:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Well, the thing is neither I nor my coworker are FreeBSD or Unix > newbies by any means. We are professional Sysadmins for a rather > large internet company and are responsible for several hundred > unix hosts, including many (more than 30) FreeBSD web servers. Well, if you're so experienced in FreeBSD, and you've been in #freebsd before, you know #freebsd is not a help channel. > #FreeBSD seems like a natural place to ask such a question since > many project members spend time there. #FreeBSD is not the natural place to ask any question. Are we making that somewhat clear ? Those same project members are also in #freebsdhelp. #FreeBSD is an IRC channel and owned by the operators. If they decide that there is no talking allowed in the channel, that's their perogitive. If they decide only their good friends can come in the channel, same thing. Bitching about it on the advocacy list isn't going to change how they handle their channel. I must have said it 50 times, but lemme say it again, #freebsdhelp. > But that assumption is apparently quite wrong. > > Sorry, I won't make the mistake of asking questions on #FreeBSD no > matter how intelligent or stupid they may be. Now you're getting the idea. > Just a bit annoyed how people seem to assume one is a total Unix > of FreeBSD newbie moron if they ask questions. Not just dumb > questions, questions, any questions at all. It's more a matter of asking questions in the wrong place. You may not be a FreeBSD newbie, but I would say your IRC experience is very weak. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 8:25:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5332137BB31 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 08:25:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000502152519.WOGF13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Tue, 2 May 2000 08:25:19 -0700 Message-ID: <002801bfb44a$9744a0a0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Alexander Langer" , "Travis Cole" Cc: "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" , References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> <20000502094046.B2489@cichlids.cichlids.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 08:25:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > You are right. @-abuse is common on Unix-channels. > That has something to do with the broken social life of these guys. I think it has more to do with a massive influx of morons who ask the same questions over and over. I too ask questions, but I quickly discovered that when I asked them in #freebsd, I often got an answer followed by a kick ban. Soon I learned that there was another channel, #freebsdhelp, where I could go for my questions. Then I learned of the mailing list, with questions@freebsd.org and so on. Then the massive web pages on FreeBSD topics and questions. www.defcon1.org, www.freebsd-howto.com, www.freebsd.org/handbook ! The content is huge. All of these simple questions are answered. One can find out the information they are seeking without annoying the rest of the BSD population. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 8:31:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DC1D37BB2F for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 08:31:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000502153106.WSIF13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Tue, 2 May 2000 08:31:06 -0700 Message-ID: <002901bfb44b$658c3ea0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Sean Kelly" , "John Papalia" Cc: "Ron Rosson" , References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <000901bfb3f8$c6d6f220$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502005033.A68966@edgemaster.zombie.org> <4.3.1.2.20000502103522.00ab5320@mail.udel.edu> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 08:30:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > What's with the "get a clue" campaign? The FAQ on freebsd.org says that > #freebsd is NOT a tech support channel, however it makes NO mention that > there is a channel called #freebsdhelp. Oh, so that makes it ok to go into #freebsd ANYWAY and ask a bunch of questions, even though the freebsd.org FAQ states that it is not a help channel. > So, don't you think it would be more HELPFUL to provide the information, > instead of just demanding clue-acquistion? You'd be amazed at how many > people stop bugging you with questions you don't want to hear then. Half the time the topic in the channel is "THIS IS NOT A HELP CHANNEL. TRY #FREEBSDHELP". And yet people will still ask their question and get banned. It's just kinda like natural selection. If you can take the time to learn what's what before you go in busting out questions, you're not going to get banned. And the bans aren't even perm anyway, so what's everyone crying about ? The point is, people aren't going to bow down and change the rules because some dorks asking a question in the wrong place are getting a little disgruntled. That's the whole idea. Maybe if they get a little pissed off they'll pull their heads out of their asses and try to figure out WHY they got banned, and what's the proper way to go about getting some help. If they refuse to learn, and simply go to one of the email lists acting all Promethian, beating their breast over how they were wronged, then they will continue to float in the river of ignorance. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 8:33:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.Surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6D2F37B8FE for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 08:33:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (p3E9C114C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.156.17.76]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18043; Tue, 2 May 2000 16:32:08 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92F6EAC2C; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:37:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA06072; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:33:15 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:33:15 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: Travis Cole , "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000502173315.A6023@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> <20000502094046.B2489@cichlids.cichlids.com> <002801bfb44a$9744a0a0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <002801bfb44a$9744a0a0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com>; from jgowdy@home.com on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 08:25:03AM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake Jeremiah Gowdy (jgowdy@home.com): > questions are answered. One can find out the information they are seeking > without annoying the rest of the BSD population. Yes, but someone has to point them to this resources, and kicking is not the correct way. If they don't want to listen to you and still ask again, it might be the time to kick them, but only then. Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 8:44:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7E29B37BEF2 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 08:41:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 2201 invoked by uid 211); 2 May 2000 15:41:44 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 21:11:44 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: Travis Cole , Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000502211143.C1682@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> <001701bfb449$e103d400$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <001701bfb449$e103d400$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com>; from jgowdy@home.com on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 08:19:58AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've restrained myself from saying anything because I don't use IRC, but this is getting ridiculous. If #freebsdhelp is the help channel, advertise it somewhere. In fact, advertise it prominently on the web page, in the handbook, and in other relevant places. If newbies wander in to #freebsd, point them to #freebsdhelp. I'm sure they'll go by themselves once they know about it. Don't expect them to know the correct channel intuitively. OK you've now said #freebsdhelp 51 times on this list, so do you think they're all subscribed to -advocacy? With that attitude, don't even begin to think about freebsd "advocacy". It's a great system, the FreeBSD gurus know all about it, so keep it to yourself and enjoy it, but don't expect others to come in from outside and somehow know everything without being told. R. Jeremiah Gowdy said on May 2, 2000 at 08:19:58: > > Well, the thing is neither I nor my coworker are FreeBSD or Unix > > newbies by any means. We are professional Sysadmins for a rather > > large internet company and are responsible for several hundred > > unix hosts, including many (more than 30) FreeBSD web servers. > > Well, if you're so experienced in FreeBSD, and you've been in #freebsd > before, you know #freebsd is not a help channel. > > > #FreeBSD seems like a natural place to ask such a question since > > many project members spend time there. > > #FreeBSD is not the natural place to ask any question. Are we making that > somewhat clear ? Those same project members are also in #freebsdhelp. > #FreeBSD is an IRC channel and owned by the operators. If they decide that > there is no talking allowed in the channel, that's their perogitive. If > they decide only their good friends can come in the channel, same thing. > Bitching about it on the advocacy list isn't going to change how they handle > their channel. I must have said it 50 times, but lemme say it again, > #freebsdhelp. > > > But that assumption is apparently quite wrong. > > > > Sorry, I won't make the mistake of asking questions on #FreeBSD no > > matter how intelligent or stupid they may be. > > Now you're getting the idea. > > > Just a bit annoyed how people seem to assume one is a total Unix > > of FreeBSD newbie moron if they ask questions. Not just dumb > > questions, questions, any questions at all. > > It's more a matter of asking questions in the wrong place. You may not be a > FreeBSD newbie, but I would say your IRC experience is very weak. > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 9:33:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1873237B555 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 09:33:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5E2851C4D; Tue, 2 May 2000 12:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 12:33:51 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Alexander Langer Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Travis Cole , Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000502123351.V86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> <20000502094046.B2489@cichlids.cichlids.com> <002801bfb44a$9744a0a0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502173315.A6023@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000502173315.A6023@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from alex@big.endian.de on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 05:33:15PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 02, 2000 at 05:33:15PM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > Yes, but someone has to point them to this resources, and kicking is > not the correct way. > > If they don't want to listen to you and still ask again, it might be > the time to kick them, but only then. (1) They expect that it is their God-given right to get help in #freebsd. (1a) Denying them that right gives them other rights including, but not limited to: evading bans by coming back under different hostnames, /msg flooding the ops/flooding the channel, Using DoS attacks on the ops, getting their friends to troll the channel. (2) I try to put #freebsdhelp and or the handbook/FAQ in my kick reason. (3) I often kick with the answer to the question/URL for more information. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect Computer Horizons Corp - CVM e-mail: billf@chc-chimes.com / billf@FreeBSD.org Office: 800-252-2421 x128 / Cell: 248-761-7272 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 9:46:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pike.cdrom.com (pike.cdrom.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB7C637B709 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 09:46:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rab@pike.cdrom.com) Received: from pike.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by pike.cdrom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA06206; Tue, 2 May 2000 09:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200005021646.JAA06206@pike.cdrom.com> To: advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: rab@pike.cdrom.com Subject: Are you willing to talk to the Press about FreeBSD? Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 09:46:41 -0700 From: "Robert A. Bruce" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Howdy, I have several requests from press people to talk to "real users" of FreeBSD. So if you are a real user, and you are willing to talk to press people and say positive things about FreeBSD, please let me know. -bob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 9:49:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B827C37B727 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 09:49:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 595F71C4D; Tue, 2 May 2000 12:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 12:49:25 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Alexander Langer Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Travis Cole , Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000502124925.W86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> <20000502094046.B2489@cichlids.cichlids.com> <002801bfb44a$9744a0a0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502173315.A6023@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000502173315.A6023@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from alex@big.endian.de on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 05:33:15PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 02, 2000 at 05:33:15PM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > Yes, but someone has to point them to this resources, and kicking is > not the correct way. I've removed the names/hostnames of the people changing, but.. here's is an example of some of the topics in the past 7 or so days. Granted, I could also paste the other 50% that were non-#freebsdhelp related or I could try = and extrapolate the percentage of time that topics with the word #freebsdhelp was up (sometimes the goofy topics get changed to #freebsdhelp topics really quickly), in any event... [01:03] Topic changed on #freebsd: I'm naked. This is not a help channel. = Go to #freebsdhelp [23:23] Topic changed on #freebsd: Route all questions to #freebsdhelp [08:31] [#FreeBSD] channel topic: Questions? STFU, RTFM, then #= freebsdhelp. NOT HERE. [10:57] Topic changed on #freebsd: This is not a help channel. #FreeBSDhelp= is a help channel. Away with you! [15:48] Topic changed on #freebsd: =02#FREEBSDHELP IF YOU NEED HELP=02 [22:17] Topic changed on #freebsd: We've warned you to go to #freebsdhelp f= or help. Now prepare for insults. [22:44] Topic changed on #freebsd: This is not a help channel. Go to #FREEB= SDHELP for help. [00:52] Topic changed on #freebsd: No bold/FAQs/helpdesk questions. Trudge= your ass over to #FreeBSDHelp. [18:11] Topic changed on #freebsd: #freebsdhelp is a help channel, but this= is not. [23:03] Topic changed on #freebsd: Cash in your cluepons at #freebsdhelp. (= THIS IS NOT A HELP CHANNEL) [16:01] Topic changed on #freebsd: This Is Not A Help Channel! Go To #freeb= sdhelp If You Need Help! [10:22] Topic changed on #freebsd: RTFM or #freebsdhelp you dumb motherfuck= ers --=20 Bill Fumerola - Network Architect Computer Horizons Corp - CVM e-mail: billf@chc-chimes.com / billf@FreeBSD.org Office: 800-252-2421 x128 / Cell: 248-761-7272 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 10: 2:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.Surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A21F537B71D for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 10:02:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (p3E9C114C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.156.17.76]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10368; Tue, 2 May 2000 18:00:25 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 596E6AC2C; Tue, 2 May 2000 19:06:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA07542; Tue, 2 May 2000 19:01:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:01:32 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Travis Cole , "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000502190132.A7377@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> <20000502094046.B2489@cichlids.cichlids.com> <002801bfb44a$9744a0a0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502173315.A6023@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000502123351.V86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000502123351.V86725@jade.chc-chimes.com>; from billf@chc-chimes.com on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 12:33:51PM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake Bill Fumerola (billf@chc-chimes.com): > (1) They expect that it is their God-given right to get help in #freebsd. That is not true. When I was a lamer^Wnewbie, I went to the next IRC-Channel and asked something (how to extract a .tar.gz, actually). They told me, that there are manpages that explain most commands, and that there are many other docs on the internet at that-and-that place. Well done, after I had _this_ info I could find out myself and I did. But one had to point me to this things. People just don't imagine that there is a command like "man" which explains things. > evading bans by coming back under different hostnames, > /msg flooding the ops/flooding the channel, > Using DoS attacks on the ops, > getting their friends to troll the channel. Eh, Bill :-) This are of course reasons to ki{ck,ll} [1] people, but I'm not talking about these guys. I talk about newbies. > (2) I try to put #freebsdhelp and or the handbook/FAQ in my kick reason. That's what I meant. Why is "/k newbie check #freebsdhelp" shorter for you than "please ask in #freebsdhelp". > (3) I often kick with the answer to the question/URL for more information. Same as above. Alex [1] IRC-Operator-Kill -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 10:21:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.Surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2925437B550 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 10:21:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (p3E9C114C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.156.17.76]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15977; Tue, 2 May 2000 18:19:41 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F89AC2F; Tue, 2 May 2000 19:25:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA08023; Tue, 2 May 2000 19:20:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:20:49 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: John Papalia Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Sean Kelly , Ron Rosson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000502192049.A7980@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <000901bfb3f8$c6d6f220$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502005033.A68966@edgemaster.zombie.org> <002d01bfb3fb$a2e5de00$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <4.3.1.2.20000502103522.00ab5320@mail.udel.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000502103522.00ab5320@mail.udel.edu>; from john@jpepconsulting.com on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 10:43:06AM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake John Papalia (john@jpepconsulting.com): > What's with the "get a clue" campaign? The FAQ on freebsd.org says that You mean http://get.a.clue.de/ :-) Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 10:32:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.Surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9441E37BAA0 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 10:32:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (p3E9C114C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.156.17.76]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA19515; Tue, 2 May 2000 18:30:55 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18962AC2C; Tue, 2 May 2000 19:08:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA07599; Tue, 2 May 2000 19:04:15 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:04:15 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Travis Cole , "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000502190415.B7377@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> <20000502094046.B2489@cichlids.cichlids.com> <002801bfb44a$9744a0a0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502173315.A6023@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000502124925.W86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000502124925.W86725@jade.chc-chimes.com>; from billf@chc-chimes.com on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 12:49:25PM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake Bill Fumerola (billf@chc-chimes.com): > [10:22] Topic changed on #freebsd: RTFM or #freebsdhelp you dumb motherfuckers ^^^^^^^^^^^^ In fact, good advocacy :-) Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 10:36:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B24237BB0A for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 10:36:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 25AE71C4D; Tue, 2 May 2000 13:36:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 13:36:32 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Alexander Langer Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Travis Cole , Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000502133632.Z86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> <20000502094046.B2489@cichlids.cichlids.com> <002801bfb44a$9744a0a0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502173315.A6023@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000502123351.V86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> <20000502190132.A7377@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000502190132.A7377@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from alex@big.endian.de on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 07:01:32PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 02, 2000 at 07:01:32PM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > > (2) I try to put #freebsdhelp and or the handbook/FAQ in my kick reason. > > That's what I meant. > Why is "/k newbie check #freebsdhelp" shorter for you than > "please ask in #freebsdhelp". But why can't you just help me here? The {FAQ,Handbook} is too long, I didn't see a search option. I already asked there, and they weren't helpful. questions@freebsd.org takes too long, I need answers now! You guys know the answer, why can't you just help. [...] > > (3) I often kick with the answer to the question/URL for more information. > > Same as above. Ditto. Except when I foolishly help you can also add: C'mon, you helped me last time with X I looked at the man page on line 140 word 4 but I _still_ don't understand what I'm doing wrong. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect Computer Horizons Corp - CVM e-mail: billf@chc-chimes.com / billf@FreeBSD.org Office: 800-252-2421 x128 / Cell: 248-761-7272 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 10:37:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from darjeeling.carrel.org (darjeeling.carrel.org [216.173.212.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0FA3937BB27 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 10:37:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cysgod@mail.carrel.org) Received: (qmail 72368 invoked by uid 1000); 2 May 2000 17:36:56 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 10:36:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "William A. Carrel" To: advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: tcole@wcug.wwu.edu, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was that that hapless victim on IRC. While my question was somewhat inane, and was answered on my own digging through kernel source code. I frankly did not anticipate the rudeness with which my question was recieved, particularly when I bothered to research ahead of time. As a regular member of #FreeBSD, I remember how annoying some questions were, but treatment like this sours me not only to the channel but to the whole project. This is the kind of treatment I'd expect from Theo back in the day, not from FreeBSD now. I did cursory research, I didn't find an answer. I guess I should grep -R /usr/src before asking my next question. I realize that there is a #FreeBSDHelp for newbie questions, but I would presume for more technical questions, or commentary on new documentation to be included (to answer the question) would be acceptable. Sure, the channel ops can do whatever the hell they want, I don't deny that. However I find it appalling that people would post to 'advocacy' about how it is acceptable to kick-ban users rather than politely redirecting them. And not with topics or bots, rather by saying, "Someone can answer your question if you join #freebsdhelp". This cavalier attitude towards beginning (and apparently advanced) users turns people off the FreeBSD, the BSDs as a whole, and certainly makes me think twice about contributing to the effort. (Yes, a PR with code: kern/16318) Now I'm sure that Mr. Gowdy and others can flame me for being an ignorant jerk that asked a question in the wrong place, and that I should've known better, etc. etc.. But just to entertain me, name an organization where if you dial the wrong extension you get sworn at and hung up on, rather than transferred to the right number. -- William Carrel -- Cysgod/EFnet+OpenProjects -- william.a@carrel.org On Mon, May 01, 2000 at 10:13:27PM -0700, Travis Cole wrote: > > Check this out. > > ----- Forwarded message from Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson ----- > > Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 18:36:44 -0700 > From: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson > To: advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: FreeBSD and IRC > X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i > > Just wanna share a little incident that happened today. > > > > My normal routine is to hang out on IRC and gleen information from the > ones that what to give it on #FreeBSD and to share what I can to give it > back. > > Today started out like any other day. people asked how to get there > mouse to work while in thier console, some other guy asked how can he > get his shell to work when he presses the up arrow key to get the > previous command, etc. The two items were fielded by the channel in a > helpful manner with a lot of poking about rtfm and using man pages. > > (This is one of the reasons why I enjoy the FreeBSD community) > > > > After awhile the channel got a little busier. A guy greeted and asked if > anyone had heard if such and such a hardware was supported. One of the > operators asked if he had checked the website. the gentlemen responded > with a yes and that he also checked the /usr/src/sys/conf/i386/LINT file > as well. The operator responded with a smart-ass remark and some > vulgarity. and then banned the gentlemen. > > Now I know IRC is not an official place to get help for FreeBSD. But it > going thru its moments where people are helpful and not. But the thing > is it is easy to get to and it has some interaction in semi-real time. > It is a public forum just as much as HTTP and NNTP. With that in mind > there could be a little hint of advocacy in the channel instead of some > people with arrogance and the power of the '@'. > > Just something to think about. > > > > Back to IRC I go entering #FreeBSD > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... > The InSaNe One rm -rf * > insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > (Ducking the spray of saliva as you raspberry the screen) > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > -- > --Travis > > "Linux is something for Windows haters, BSD is something for Unix lovers" > (Heike S., Febr. 98) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 10:39:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.Surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA45637B64D for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 10:39:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (p3E9C114C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.156.17.76]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22007; Tue, 2 May 2000 18:38:10 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCCFDAC2C; Tue, 2 May 2000 19:43:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA08455; Tue, 2 May 2000 19:39:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:39:18 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Travis Cole , "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000502193918.A8410@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> <20000502094046.B2489@cichlids.cichlids.com> <002801bfb44a$9744a0a0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502173315.A6023@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000502123351.V86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> <20000502190132.A7377@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000502133632.Z86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000502133632.Z86725@jade.chc-chimes.com>; from billf@chc-chimes.com on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 01:36:32PM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake Bill Fumerola (billf@chc-chimes.com): > The {FAQ,Handbook} is too long, I didn't see a search option. > I already asked there, and they weren't helpful. > questions@freebsd.org takes too long, I need answers now! > You guys know the answer, why can't you just help. This guy is special. I kick those guys myself. In my experience, newbies aren't of that kind :-) Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 10:53: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9113937BB9C for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 10:52:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13073; Tue, 2 May 2000 13:52:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200005021752.NAA13073@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 13:52:19 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: "William A. Carrel" Subject: RE: Cc: insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, tcole@wcug.wwu.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Actually, the problem seems to be that regardless of the desires of anyone on #freebsd, #freebsd serves as a representative of the FreeBSD project because of its name. The op's and other people can insist that "no, it isn't", but their opinion doesn't count. :) The opinion that counts in this is the opinion of the public. If we are to maintain a professional attitude on the project, then we should probably rename #freebsd to #freebsdchat and #freebsdhelp to #freebsd. Again, I say that for all the people on #freebsd, the public perception of the project and its name is not something you control. Get over it and stop being so arrogant. Look at #freebsd on UnderNet. You can ask questions there and get civil answers or at least civil redirects. In fact, by helping answering a question there, I helped promote advocacy here at my university since I ended up helping some freshman CS major and I eventually heard back from the TA for the class that it had made a good impression. Now really, grow up guys. If you want FreeBSD to go nowhere and be your private playtoy, fine, but I'm not satisfied with that. I think this project has great potential in the marketplace, but it needs to act professionally in all matters, and whether you like it or not, that includes #freebsd. To summarize: to the #freebsd people: Your opinion doesn't matter! John aka BigKnife on #freebsd, #freebsdhelp, and occasionally on #freebsd on Undernet. P.S. Sometimes a newbie will ask a question, and will be kicked before I can type up a simple answer. Very annoying. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 10:58: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F17137BBB8 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 10:58:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A89D41C4D; Tue, 2 May 2000 13:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 13:58:00 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Alexander Langer Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Travis Cole , Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000502135800.B86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> <20000502094046.B2489@cichlids.cichlids.com> <002801bfb44a$9744a0a0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502173315.A6023@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000502123351.V86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> <20000502190132.A7377@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000502133632.Z86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> <20000502193918.A8410@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000502193918.A8410@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from alex@big.endian.de on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 07:39:18PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 02, 2000 at 07:39:18PM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > > The {FAQ,Handbook} is too long, I didn't see a search option. > > I already asked there, and they weren't helpful. > > questions@freebsd.org takes too long, I need answers now! > > You guys know the answer, why can't you just help. > > This guy is special. I kick those guys myself. > In my experience, newbies aren't of that kind :-) "This guy" is 90% of the non-regulars who enter #freebsd. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect Computer Horizons Corp - CVM e-mail: billf@chc-chimes.com / billf@FreeBSD.org Office: 800-252-2421 x128 / Cell: 248-761-7272 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 11:58:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E91A537B965 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 11:58:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA07510; Tue, 2 May 2000 11:58:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAD9aaFo; Tue May 2 11:57:59 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA22752; Tue, 2 May 2000 11:58:07 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005021858.LAA22752@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC To: alex@big.endian.de (Alexander Langer) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 18:58:07 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jgowdy@home.com (Jeremiah Gowdy), tcole@wcug.wwu.edu (Travis Cole), insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net (Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson), advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000502173315.A6023@cichlids.cichlids.com> from "Alexander Langer" at May 02, 2000 05:33:15 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > questions are answered. One can find out the information they are seeking > > without annoying the rest of the BSD population. > > Yes, but someone has to point them to this resources, and kicking is > not the correct way. > > If they don't want to listen to you and still ask again, it might be > the time to kick them, but only then. IRC is badly designed. If it weren't, there would be a way to force someone to another channel, and tell them to reask the question there, as opposed to "kick" (I assume: force them out of the channel) and ignore. Like automatically following a referral in a browser. IRC is simply not well designed for the use (technical support) to which people appear to be attempting to put it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 12:20:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wcug.wwu.edu (sloth.wcug.wwu.edu [140.160.164.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 89E3437BDE0 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 12:20:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tcole@wcug.wwu.edu) Received: (qmail 13016 invoked by uid 1085); 2 May 2000 19:20:28 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 12:20:28 -0700 From: Travis Cole To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: Sean Kelly , John Papalia , Ron Rosson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000502122028.A12847@wcug.wwu.edu> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <000901bfb3f8$c6d6f220$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502005033.A68966@edgemaster.zombie.org> <4.3.1.2.20000502103522.00ab5320@mail.udel.edu> <002901bfb44b$658c3ea0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0i In-Reply-To: <002901bfb44b$658c3ea0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com>; from jgowdy@home.com on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 08:30:48AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 02, 2000 at 08:30:48AM -0700, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > Half the time the topic in the channel is "THIS IS NOT A HELP CHANNEL. TRY > #FREEBSDHELP". And yet people will still ask their question and get banned. > It's just kinda like natural selection. If you can take the time to learn > what's what before you go in busting out questions, you're not going to get > banned. And the bans aren't even perm anyway, so what's everyone crying > about ? So what is acceptable conversation on #FreeBSD? > > The point is, people aren't going to bow down and change the rules because > some dorks asking a question in the wrong place are getting a little > disgruntled. That's the whole idea. Maybe if they get a little pissed off > they'll pull their heads out of their asses and try to figure out WHY they > got banned, and what's the proper way to go about getting some help. If > they refuse to learn, and simply go to one of the email lists acting all > Promethian, beating their breast over how they were wronged, then they will > continue to float in the river of ignorance. -- --Travis "Linux is something for Windows haters, BSD is something for Unix lovers" (Heike S., Febr. 98) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 14:55:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E54E37BAFD for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 14:55:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000502215502.HHJT13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Tue, 2 May 2000 14:55:02 -0700 Message-ID: <001801bfb481$08e88420$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Alexander Langer" Cc: "Travis Cole" , "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" , References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> <20000502094046.B2489@cichlids.cichlids.com> <002801bfb44a$9744a0a0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502173315.A6023@cichlids.cichlids.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:54:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Yes, but someone has to point them to this resources, and kicking is > not the correct way. > > If they don't want to listen to you and still ask again, it might be > the time to kick them, but only then. If you don't know how to get to freebsd.org and read the FAQ, you are quite lost beyond any repair. And as I said before, the channel owners can run the channel as they see fit. Period. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 14:57:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71ABC37C011 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 14:57:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000502215725.HJAU13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Tue, 2 May 2000 14:57:25 -0700 Message-ID: <001c01bfb481$5e30caa0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Travis Cole" , "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" , References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> <001701bfb449$e103d400$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502211143.C1682@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:57:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > page, in the handbook, and in other relevant places. If newbies > wander in to #freebsd, point them to #freebsdhelp. I'm sure they'll > go by themselves once they know about it. Don't expect them to know > the correct channel intuitively. OK you've now said #freebsdhelp 51 > times on this list, so do you think they're all subscribed to > -advocacy? With that attitude, don't even begin to think about > freebsd "advocacy". It's a great system, the FreeBSD gurus know all > about it, so keep it to yourself and enjoy it, but don't expect > others to come in from outside and somehow know everything without > being told. It's not my policy, and I've violated it several times and been banned for it. All I'm truely arguing is that the channel ops and owners can run the channel as they see fit. It's not a matter of "abusing the @". If you come to my house and don't follow my rules, and I kick you out, I'm not abusing the fact that I'm big enough to throw you out, I'm enforcing the rules of my house. See the difference ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 14:59: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from foobar.franken.de (foobar.franken.de [194.94.249.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 638BB37B8B2 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 14:58:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from logix@foobar.franken.de) Received: (from logix@localhost) by foobar.franken.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id XAA01749; Tue, 2 May 2000 23:59:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <20000502235905.B1578@foobar.franken.de> Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 23:59:05 +0200 From: Harold Gutch To: Jeremiah Gowdy , Travis Cole Cc: "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> <001701bfb449$e103d400$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <001701bfb449$e103d400$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com>; from Jeremiah Gowdy on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 08:19:58AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 02, 2000 at 08:19:58AM -0700, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > #FreeBSD is an IRC channel and owned by the operators. If they decide that Channels are not owned. They might be somewhat owned on IRC-networks running chanserv, but EFNet isn't one of them. > It's more a matter of asking questions in the wrong place. You may not be a > FreeBSD newbie, but I would say your IRC experience is very weak. I'll let that stand for itself together with my reply above :). bye, Harold -- Someone should do a study to find out how many human life spans have been lost waiting for NT to reboot. Ken Deboy on Dec 24 1999 in comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 14:59:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CBEF37BF18 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 14:59:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000502215904.HKGE13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Tue, 2 May 2000 14:59:04 -0700 Message-ID: <002201bfb481$992ff0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: , Cc: , , References: <802568D3.0056C057.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:58:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Here Here. If this guy is so massively "busy" in enjoying high-level > enlightenment with the other experts and has no time to answer newbie questions, > how come he has the time to hold a protracted and repetitive flame war > denouncing stuff on a list that is supposedly for discussing how best to promote > FreeBSD?! Excuse me ? I never claimed to be one of the experts, nor am I always welcome in the channel. As to how I manage my time, that's none of your goddamn business. I am simply saying this: The channel belongs to the people with the ops. If you don't like it, make your own channel or go somewhere else. But don't sit here and cry about it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 15: 1:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from foobar.franken.de (foobar.franken.de [194.94.249.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1552537BFBB for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 15:01:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from logix@foobar.franken.de) Received: (from logix@localhost) by foobar.franken.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id AAA01787; Wed, 3 May 2000 00:02:08 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <20000503000208.C1578@foobar.franken.de> Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 00:02:08 +0200 From: Harold Gutch To: Bill Fumerola , Alexander Langer Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Travis Cole , "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC References: <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> <20000502094046.B2489@cichlids.cichlids.com> <002801bfb44a$9744a0a0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502173315. <20000502193918.A8410@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000502135800.B86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <20000502135800.B86725@jade.chc-chimes.com>; from Bill Fumerola on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 01:58:00PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 02, 2000 at 01:58:00PM -0400, Bill Fumerola wrote: > On Tue, May 02, 2000 at 07:39:18PM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > > > > The {FAQ,Handbook} is too long, I didn't see a search option. > > > I already asked there, and they weren't helpful. > > > questions@freebsd.org takes too long, I need answers now! > > > You guys know the answer, why can't you just help. > > > > This guy is special. I kick those guys myself. > > In my experience, newbies aren't of that kind :-) > > "This guy" is 90% of the non-regulars who enter #freebsd. How can you tell before he/they actually behaves/behave that way? Kicking somebody who behaves like "newbie" above is OK, but how should people know _where_ to ask if you don't tell them at all (like at least in the kick-reason, or in the topic - as you already said in your other mails). bye, Harold -- Someone should do a study to find out how many human life spans have been lost waiting for NT to reboot. Ken Deboy on Dec 24 1999 in comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 15: 4:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AA4A37BF81 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 15:04:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000502220406.HOCJ13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Tue, 2 May 2000 15:04:06 -0700 Message-ID: <004201bfb482$4d2e6ea0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Alexander Langer" , "Bill Fumerola" Cc: "Travis Cole" , "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" , References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> <20000502094046.B2489@cichlids.cichlids.com> <002801bfb44a$9744a0a0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502173315.A6023@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000502124925.W86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> <20000502190415.B7377@cichlids.cichlids.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 15:03:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > [10:22] Topic changed on #freebsd: RTFM or #freebsdhelp you dumb motherfuckers > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > In fact, good advocacy :-) That's my favorite topic personally :) And yes, I was once one of the dumb motherfuckers, so I'm not trying to act like I'm better than anyone. It's simply when I'm repremanded for being foolish, I don't get all indignant and demand that people respect my ignorance. When you're wrong or ignorant, and you get called on it, just admit it and move on. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 15:12:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC33A37C004 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 15:12:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000502221237.HVLG13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Tue, 2 May 2000 15:12:37 -0700 Message-ID: <005301bfb483$7dd834e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "William A. Carrel" , Cc: , References: Subject: Re: Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 15:12:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I was that that hapless victim on IRC. While my question was > somewhat inane, and was answered on my own digging through kernel > source code. I frankly did not anticipate the rudeness with which > my question was recieved, particularly when I bothered to research > ahead of time. It's not considered rude when people repremand you for breaking the rules. Period. > As a regular member of #FreeBSD, I remember how annoying some > questions were, but treatment like this sours me not only to the > channel but to the whole project. lol. I'll mail you a RedHat CD. > Sure, the channel ops can do whatever the hell they want, I don't > deny that. However I find it appalling that people would post to > 'advocacy' about how it is acceptable to kick-ban users rather than > politely redirecting them. The original complaint (whining, bitching, crying) was posted to advocacy. > Now I'm sure that Mr. Gowdy and others can flame me for being an ignorant > jerk that asked a question in the wrong place, and that I should've known > better, etc. etc.. But just to entertain me, name an organization > where if you dial the wrong extension you get sworn at and hung up > on, rather than transferred to the right number. Sure, if you can name an organization that uses an IRC channel for a helpline. Welcome to EfNet. Wake up. People are rude, stupid, and outright mean sometimes. If you can't handle it, go to DalNet. On DalNet if you say someone is ugly, you're likely to be K-Lined, because they try to respect people's feelings or some such shit. It just amazes me that anyone would write an email about how they got abused on EfNet. It totally blows my mind. > > -- William Carrel -- Cysgod/EFnet+OpenProjects -- william.a@carrel.org > > On Mon, May 01, 2000 at 10:13:27PM -0700, Travis Cole wrote: > > > > Check this out. > > > > ----- Forwarded message from Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson ----- > > > > Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 18:36:44 -0700 > > From: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson > > To: advocacy@freebsd.org > > Subject: FreeBSD and IRC > > X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i > > > > Just wanna share a little incident that happened today. > > > > > > > > My normal routine is to hang out on IRC and gleen information from the > > ones that what to give it on #FreeBSD and to share what I can to give it > > back. > > > > Today started out like any other day. people asked how to get there > > mouse to work while in thier console, some other guy asked how can he > > get his shell to work when he presses the up arrow key to get the > > previous command, etc. The two items were fielded by the channel in a > > helpful manner with a lot of poking about rtfm and using man pages. > > > > (This is one of the reasons why I enjoy the FreeBSD community) > > > > > > > > After awhile the channel got a little busier. A guy greeted and asked if > > anyone had heard if such and such a hardware was supported. One of the > > operators asked if he had checked the website. the gentlemen responded > > with a yes and that he also checked the /usr/src/sys/conf/i386/LINT file > > as well. The operator responded with a smart-ass remark and some > > vulgarity. and then banned the gentlemen. > > > > Now I know IRC is not an official place to get help for FreeBSD. But it > > going thru its moments where people are helpful and not. But the thing > > is it is easy to get to and it has some interaction in semi-real time. > > It is a public forum just as much as HTTP and NNTP. With that in mind > > there could be a little hint of advocacy in the channel instead of some > > people with arrogance and the power of the '@'. > > > > Just something to think about. > > > > > > > > Back to IRC I go entering #FreeBSD > > -- > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... > > The InSaNe One rm -rf * > > insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > (Ducking the spray of saliva as you raspberry the screen) > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > > > -- > > --Travis > > > > "Linux is something for Windows haters, BSD is something for Unix lovers" > > (Heike S., Febr. 98) > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 15:18:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2657937C054; Tue, 2 May 2000 15:18:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000502221843.HZZD13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Tue, 2 May 2000 15:18:43 -0700 Message-ID: <005b01bfb484$57ae80c0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "John Baldwin" , "William A. Carrel" Cc: , , References: <200005021752.NAA13073@server.baldwin.cx> Subject: Re: RE: Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 15:18:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Actually, the problem seems to be that regardless of the desires > of anyone on #freebsd, #freebsd serves as a representative of > the FreeBSD project because of its name. The op's and other people > can insist that "no, it isn't", but their opinion doesn't count. :) > The opinion that counts in this is the opinion of the public. I don't think so. I think the opinion that counts in this is the opinion of the people with ops. If I owned #windows on EfNet and Microsoft or Windows users came in and told me they didn't like my channel rules, I'd tell them to lodge their complains firmly up their anus. Now, I know the people in #freebsd are alot better people than that, but you can't expect that they're going to bow to everyone's whim. > grow up guys. If you want FreeBSD to go nowhere and be your private > playtoy, fine, but I'm not satisfied with that. I think this project > has great potential in the marketplace, but it needs to act > professionally in all matters, and whether you like it or not, that > includes #freebsd. You honestly think that having a polite IRC channel is that big of a factor in having FreeBSD grow ? You have to be kidding me. > To summarize: to the #freebsd people: Your opinion doesn't matter! To summarize to you and anyone else who mistakenly thinks otherwise. If you don't have ops, your opinion does not matter. #freebsd is not yours simply because you run FreeBSD. Apparently you don't understand how IRC works. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 15:33:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wondermutt.net (host75-157.student.udel.edu [128.175.75.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F32A037C0EB for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 15:33:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@jpepconsulting.com) Received: from morgaine.jpepconsulting.com (morgaine.wondermutt.net [192.168.1.2]) by wondermutt.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17620; Tue, 2 May 2000 18:35:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john@jpepconsulting.com) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000502181715.00ab1de0@mail.jpepconsulting.com> X-Sender: john@mail.jpepconsulting.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 18:29:17 -0400 To: jgowdy@home.com From: John Papalia Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Cc: smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <002901bfb44b$658c3ea0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <000901bfb3f8$c6d6f220$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502005033.A68966@edgemaster.zombie.org> <4.3.1.2.20000502103522.00ab5320@mail.udel.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > What's with the "get a clue" campaign? The FAQ on freebsd.org says that > > #freebsd is NOT a tech support channel, however it makes NO mention that > > there is a channel called #freebsdhelp. > >Oh, so that makes it ok to go into #freebsd ANYWAY and ask a bunch of >questions, even though the freebsd.org FAQ states that it is not a help >channel. Simply put, yes. It states it's not a tech support channel, however it doesn't say that tech questions are forbidden. This can be CLEARLY illustrated by the fact that on several of m "channel ownership" comes into play, you set yourself up for the "inconvenience" of "stupid newbie questions" as you've put it. If the ChanOps can have technical discussions, expect the non-chan-ops to expect to be allowed to as well. And yes, I CAN understand the irritation of answering the same "stupid questions" over and over again - I've been doing it on my own irc channels for 9 years now. Perhaps you should institute what we did - a simple greeting bot that checks the "userlist", and if you're not on the userlist, you get the greeting with a brief 2 line explanation. Everyone's problems will be toned down then. I think what stewed my britches and caused me to write in on this issue is the fact that all the responses generating from some parties on this issue have been extremely hostile and take the tone of the typical "it's my channel, so do what I say or screw off" chan-op mentality. The way I view it is simple - the channel "belongs" to the chan-ops for as long as they (can) hold it. However, in this case the name of the channel is also the name of the product. The name doesn't belong to the chan-ops (unless someone actually associated with the project wants to correct me here? please?). So, if you're going to run a channel with a name of a product that apparently you support (otherwise why would you be on the advocacy mailing list to begin with?), they just think about the fact that your actions reflect on the product. Find a better way to "cure your problems" (see above). Once upon a time, IRC was actually fun. It would be nice if people remembered that whenever they used it.... --John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 15:50:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sintec.sintec.ro (sintec.sintec.ro [193.226.125.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E35A37B663; Tue, 2 May 2000 15:50:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from KoronkaS@interscope.ro) Received: from uranus.interscope.ro (b_telemach.sintec.ro [193.226.125.34]) by sintec.sintec.ro (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA19466; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:56:10 +0300 Received: by URANUS with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:49:00 +0300 Message-ID: From: Stefan KORONKA To: "'Jeremiah Gowdy'" , John Baldwin , "William A. Carrel" Cc: insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, tcole@wcug.wwu.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: RE: Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 01:48:55 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG . to lodge their complains firmly up their anus. Now, I know . the people in . #freebsd are alot better people than that, but you can't as far as i can saw today, some of them aren't ;( . You honestly think that having a polite IRC channel is that . big of a factor . in having FreeBSD grow ? You have to be kidding me. maybe not, but having an IMpolite one, sure is .. stefan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 15:56:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EAAA37B83D for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 15:56:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA13525; Tue, 2 May 2000 18:55:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200005022255.SAA13525@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <005b01bfb484$57ae80c0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 18:55:43 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Jeremiah Gowdy Subject: Re: RE: Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org, tcole@wcug.wwu.edu, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, "William A. Carrel" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 02-May-00 Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: >> Actually, the problem seems to be that regardless of the desires >> of anyone on #freebsd, #freebsd serves as a representative of >> the FreeBSD project because of its name. The op's and other people >> can insist that "no, it isn't", but their opinion doesn't count. :) >> The opinion that counts in this is the opinion of the public. > > I don't think so. I think the opinion that counts in this is the opinion of > the people with ops. If I owned #windows on EfNet and Microsoft or Windows > users came in and told me they didn't like my channel rules, I'd tell them > to lodge their complains firmly up their anus. Now, I know the people in >#freebsd are alot better people than that, but you can't expect that they're > going to bow to everyone's whim. You are missing the point. This isn't about you, this is about what's best for the project. Just because you can make a total jerk of yourself doesn't mean that doing so is in the best interest of the project. Please, if you want to use that logic, then go jump off a cliff and do us all a favor. Really, the point is that if we want to put on a professional face for the project and further it, we have to act like it. That can mean that #freebsd will behave differently than other IRC channels. Just because everyone else does something, we don't have to sink to the same level. >> grow up guys. If you want FreeBSD to go nowhere and be your private >> playtoy, fine, but I'm not satisfied with that. I think this project >> has great potential in the marketplace, but it needs to act >> professionally in all matters, and whether you like it or not, that >> includes #freebsd. > > You honestly think that having a polite IRC channel is that big of a factor > in having FreeBSD grow ? You have to be kidding me. It counts for something. I actually get out and see people day to day that haven't decided yet if they are going to go with FreeBSD or something else. Did you completely miss my story above that you snipped about how my helping out on an IRC channel actually encouraged some guy to go with FreeBSD? How many people have you kicked and told to f*** off and had them come back and say "oh thanks, now I really want to use FreeBSD". >> To summarize: to the #freebsd people: Your opinion doesn't matter! > > To summarize to you and anyone else who mistakenly thinks otherwise. If you > don't have ops, your opinion does not matter. #freebsd is not yours simply > because you run FreeBSD. Apparently you don't understand how IRC works. [18:43][@BigKnife(+i) [Mail: 1] [#freebsd(+nst)] As you can see, I am an op on #freebsd. But really, that is not the main point. The main point is about changing an attitude to do what's best for the project when we are bearing the project's name, whether we like it or not. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 15:59:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0EAEE37B83D for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 15:59:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 2029 invoked from network); 2 May 2000 22:59:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 2 May 2000 22:59:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 7070 invoked by uid 211); 2 May 2000 22:58:59 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 04:28:58 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Stefan KORONKA Cc: 'Jeremiah Gowdy' , John Baldwin , "William A. Carrel" , insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, tcole@wcug.wwu.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RE: Message-ID: <20000503042858.D6997@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from KoronkaS@interscope.ro on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 01:48:55AM +0300 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stefan KORONKA said on May 3, 2000 at 01:48:55: > . You honestly think that having a polite IRC channel is that > . big of a factor > . in having FreeBSD grow ? You have to be kidding me. > > maybe not, but having an IMpolite one, sure is .. And I don't know about IRC, but I don't think this thread will improve the image of FreeBSD among new subscribers... besides, as someone pointed out, it's all publicly archived and anyone searching for some keywords could chance upon it. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 16:17:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hydrant.intranova.net (msb-ts-slip13.UMDNJ.EDU [130.219.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9CF4037B9C3 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 16:17:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oogali@intranova.net) Received: (qmail 9119 invoked from network); 2 May 2000 23:17:34 -0000 Received: from localhost.abuselabs.com (HELO localhost) (missnglnk@127.0.0.1) by localhost.abuselabs.com with SMTP; 2 May 2000 23:17:34 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:17:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Omachonu Ogali To: Sean Kelly Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Ron Rosson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC In-Reply-To: <20000502005033.A68966@edgemaster.zombie.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG We set topics and we tell them verbally that it isn't a help channel but in turn we're either insulted or ignored, resulting in smart-ass remarks and/or bans. On Tue, 2 May 2000, Sean Kelly wrote: > On Mon, May 01, 2000 at 10:39:25PM -0700, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > No, just something to think about would be this. There IS a help channel > > for FreeBSD on EfNet in which it IS safe to ask questions. It's called > > #freebsdhelp. The people asking for help in #freebsd are violating the > > channel rules and are defeating the whole purpose of having #freebsdhelp. > > Next time you see people asking for help in #freebsd, refer them to > > #freebsdhelp before they get banned. > > Just thinking aloud here, but when the #FreeBSD channel was made, the founders > should have known that people who needed help would randomly try to join a > #freebsd channel and ask for help. Wouldn't a more logical naming scheme would > be to have the help channel be #FreeBSD and the convo channel be #FreeBSD-Talk? > > You have to understand that it's not the users' fault that the names are so > undescriptive and generic. If it really bothers you that much, make some sort > of bot that sends a notice to people when they join that warns them that they > will be banned and refers them to #FreeBSDHelp. > > -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Omachonu Ogali oogali@intranova.net | | Intranova Networking Group http://tribune.intranova.net | | PGP Key ID: 0xBFE60839 | | PGP Fingerprint: C8 51 14 FD 2A 87 53 D1 E3 AA 12 12 01 93 BD 34 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 16:20:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hydrant.intranova.net (msb-ts-slip13.UMDNJ.EDU [130.219.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4AC2B37BAEE for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 16:20:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oogali@intranova.net) Received: (qmail 9836 invoked from network); 2 May 2000 23:20:43 -0000 Received: from localhost.abuselabs.com (HELO localhost) (missnglnk@127.0.0.1) by localhost.abuselabs.com with SMTP; 2 May 2000 23:20:43 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:20:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Omachonu Ogali To: Travis Cole Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC In-Reply-To: <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The point is that it isn't a help channel and we emphasize that every 3-5 minutes and everytime a question is asked. On Tue, 2 May 2000, Travis Cole wrote: > On Mon, May 01, 2000 at 10:43:38PM -0700, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > > I happen to share an office at work with the guy who got flamed and > > > then kick banned on #FreeBSD. > > > > > > Yet another reason why I don't go to #FreeBSD any more. Its often > > > times distressing how people can instantly turn against you there. > > > > > > :( > > > > Once again, let me spell it out for you guys. #freebsdhelp > > Did you get that number ? Lemme share it again. #freebsdhelp. Just > > because people are in a freebsd chat channel does not mean they should have > > to endure massive amounts of repetitive questions. That's why there's a > > help channel. Get a clue or stop complaining. There's also > > www.defcon1.org, www.freebsd-howto.org, and www.freebsd.org/handbook > > There's plenty of help out there without abusing the knowlegable people on > > IRC, who want to come on IRC and talk to other knowlegable people without > > being plagued by beginners. Those who CHOOSE to share their knowlege and > > information with people are in #freebsdhelp. > > Well, the thing is neither I nor my coworker are FreeBSD or Unix > newbies by any means. We are professional Sysadmins for a rather > large internet company and are responsible for several hundred > unix hosts, including many (more than 30) FreeBSD web servers. > > My point being we are not clueless newbies asking lame questions which > are plainly documented in the FAQ or handbook. The answer to my > coworkers questions were not documented in the FAQ, Handbook, LINT > or any other remotely obvious place. Unfortunately the FreeBSD project > is a bit slow on documenting what hardware is supported (yeah, > I know I should quit bitching and help). So the only other way to answer > such a question (is hardware product X supported) is to search the commit > logs, which may or may not come up with your answer, grep the > source which is also imperfect, or ask someone who may know because > they are a member of the project (yes, also imperfect). > > #FreeBSD seems like a natural place to ask such a question since > many project members spend time there. > > But that assumption is apparently quite wrong. > > Sorry, I won't make the mistake of asking questions on #FreeBSD no > matter how intelligent or stupid they may be. > > Just a bit annoyed how people seem to assume one is a total Unix > of FreeBSD newbie moron if they ask questions. Not just dumb > questions, questions, any questions at all. > > -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Omachonu Ogali oogali@intranova.net | | Intranova Networking Group http://tribune.intranova.net | | PGP Key ID: 0xBFE60839 | | PGP Fingerprint: C8 51 14 FD 2A 87 53 D1 E3 AA 12 12 01 93 BD 34 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 16:25:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hydrant.intranova.net (msb-ts-slip13.UMDNJ.EDU [130.219.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8961637BB09 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 16:25:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oogali@intranova.net) Received: (qmail 9872 invoked from network); 2 May 2000 23:25:52 -0000 Received: from localhost.abuselabs.com (HELO localhost) (missnglnk@127.0.0.1) by localhost.abuselabs.com with SMTP; 2 May 2000 23:25:52 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:25:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Omachonu Ogali To: Alexander Langer Cc: Bill Fumerola , Jeremiah Gowdy , Travis Cole , Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC In-Reply-To: <20000502190132.A7377@cichlids.cichlids.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 2 May 2000, Alexander Langer wrote: > Thus spake Bill Fumerola (billf@chc-chimes.com): > > > (1) They expect that it is their God-given right to get help in #freebsd. > > That is not true. When I was a lamer^Wnewbie, I went to the next > IRC-Channel and asked something (how to extract a .tar.gz, actually). > They told me, that there are manpages that explain most commands, and > that there are many other docs on the internet at that-and-that place. > > Well done, after I had _this_ info I could find out myself and I did. > But one had to point me to this things. > > People just don't imagine that there is a command like "man" which > explains things. One channel that helps you doesn't give you a privilege is every other channel on IRC. > > evading bans by coming back under different hostnames, > > /msg flooding the ops/flooding the channel, > > Using DoS attacks on the ops, > > getting their friends to troll the channel. > > Eh, Bill :-) > This are of course reasons to ki{ck,ll} [1] people, but I'm not > talking about these guys. I talk about newbies. > > > (2) I try to put #freebsdhelp and or the handbook/FAQ in my kick reason. > > That's what I meant. > Why is "/k newbie check #freebsdhelp" shorter for you than > "please ask in #freebsdhelp". Because it's said in the channel and no one listens. > > (3) I often kick with the answer to the question/URL for more information. > > Same as above. Same as above. > Alex > > [1] IRC-Operator-Kill > > -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Omachonu Ogali oogali@intranova.net | | Intranova Networking Group http://tribune.intranova.net | | PGP Key ID: 0xBFE60839 | | PGP Fingerprint: C8 51 14 FD 2A 87 53 D1 E3 AA 12 12 01 93 BD 34 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 16:48:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0124C37BBC3 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 16:48:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000502234853.KUTJ13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Tue, 2 May 2000 16:48:53 -0700 Message-ID: <000b01bfb490$f08e2140$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "John Papalia" Cc: , , References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <000901bfb3f8$c6d6f220$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502005033.A68966@edgemaster.zombie.org> <4.3.1.2.20000502103522.00ab5320@mail.udel.edu> <4.3.1.2.20000502181715.00ab1de0@mail.jpepconsulting.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 16:48:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > "it's my channel, so do what I say or screw off" chan-op mentality." > > The way I view it is simple - the channel "belongs" to the chan-ops for as > long as they (can) hold it. You contradict yourself right there. If they can hold the channel, and they certainly can, then it's theirs to maintain as they see fit. Period. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 17: 4:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wondermutt.net (host75-157.student.udel.edu [128.175.75.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B90F37B832 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:04:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@jpepconsulting.com) Received: from morgaine.jpepconsulting.com (morgaine.wondermutt.net [192.168.1.2]) by wondermutt.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17960; Tue, 2 May 2000 20:07:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john@jpepconsulting.com) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000502195211.00aa9100@mail.jpepconsulting.com> X-Sender: john@mail.jpepconsulting.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 20:00:57 -0400 To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" From: John Papalia Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Cc: , , In-Reply-To: <000b01bfb490$f08e2140$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <000901bfb3f8$c6d6f220$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502005033.A68966@edgemaster.zombie.org> <4.3.1.2.20000502103522.00ab5320@mail.udel.edu> <4.3.1.2.20000502181715.00ab1de0@mail.jpepconsulting.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > "it's my channel, so do what I say or screw off" chan-op mentality." > > > > The way I view it is simple - the channel "belongs" to the chan-ops for as > > long as they (can) hold it. > >You contradict yourself right there. If they can hold the channel, and they >certainly can, then it's theirs to maintain as they see fit. Period. You have got to have THE most frustrating case of selective reading and quoting that exists. Perhaps your a politician. Do NOT misquote me. What I said was: " The way I view it is simple - the channel "belongs" to the chan-ops for as long as they (can) hold it. However, in this case the name of the channel is also the name of the product. The name doesn't belong to the chan-ops (unless someone actually associated with the project wants to correct me here? please?). So, if you're going to run a channel with a name of a product that apparently you support (otherwise why would you be on the advocacy mailing list to begin with?), they just think about the fact that your actions reflect on the product. Find a better way to "cure your problems" (see above). " There was, is, and shall be a "however" in my statement. Your cavalier "I'm right, you're wrong, get outta my face or I'll curse some more at you even though this is a family show" attitude makes the project look bad. Period. Quit being selective in your hearing. From some of the postings, your attitude and mantra are NOT held by all the ops on #freebsd - just some. And given that the FAQ states it's a "FreeBSD Forum", NOT a "Jeremiah Gowdy" forum, you should look past the end of your nose and what you think is best for YOU and instead what is best for the PROJECT. If the channel is NOT associated with the Project, get the FAQ changed. THAT is what I said. Period. --John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 17: 7:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from darjeeling.carrel.org (darjeeling.carrel.org [216.173.212.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 55D5D37B693 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:07:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cysgod@mail.carrel.org) Received: (qmail 73933 invoked by uid 1000); 3 May 2000 00:07:06 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:07:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "William A. Carrel" To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, tcole@wcug.wwu.edu, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net Subject: Re: In-Reply-To: <005301bfb483$7dd834e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 2 May 2000, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > I was that that hapless victim on IRC. While my question was > > somewhat inane, and was answered on my own digging through kernel > > source code. I frankly did not anticipate the rudeness with which > > my question was recieved, particularly when I bothered to research > > ahead of time. > > It's not considered rude when people repremand you for breaking the rules. > Period. It is rude to call someone a 'dumbfuck' when they ask a question and demonstrate a moderate amount of technical knowledge. Shame on me for not being polite in the face of insults. > > As a regular member of #FreeBSD, I remember how annoying some > > questions were, but treatment like this sours me not only to the > > channel but to the whole project. > > lol. I'll mail you a RedHat CD. And this sort of attitude really helps FreeBSD. I'm sure BSDI will be sending you a nice award to thank you for your wonderful efforts in fostering a positive relationship with the userbase. I'm sure this make great publicity for the project that encourages novice users to pick up the system. > > Sure, the channel ops can do whatever the hell they want, I don't > > deny that. However I find it appalling that people would post to > > 'advocacy' about how it is acceptable to kick-ban users rather than > > politely redirecting them. > > The original complaint (whining, bitching, crying) was posted to advocacy. I didn't write the original complaint. It was someone else observing what a bunch of assholes some of the IRC ops on #FreeBSD/EFNet are. And after all the bitching and moaning done by the ops. Ops who should be able to do whatever the hell they want because they don't see how it affects the project, I thought I'd post and agree with the original message. You can go ahead and be a pack of flaming jerks, there is nothing wrong with this, it is perfectly your right. However it reflects poorly on the project, it alienates users, and it makes enemies out of project leaders, committers and contributers. Please take this into account before committing any rash actions in the future. Of course this post will get me kickbanned again. -- William Carrel -- Cysgod/EFnet+OpenProjects -- william.a@carrel.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 17:27: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C7DC37B56A for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:27:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19131; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:28:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: John Papalia Cc: "Jeremiah Gowdy" , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 May 2000 20:00:57 EDT." <4.3.1.2.20000502195211.00aa9100@mail.jpepconsulting.com> Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 17:28:54 -0700 Message-ID: <19128.957313734@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If the channel is NOT associated with the Project, get the FAQ changed. Actually, what the FAQ states is pretty clear though I'll repeat it here since I think people have, nonetheless, lost the thread: From http://www.freebsd.org/FAQ/preface.html#AEN210: Q: Are there FreeBSD IRC (Internet Relay Chat) channels? A: Yes, most major IRC networks host a FreeBSD chat channel: Channel #FreeBSD on EFNet is a FreeBSD forum, but don't go there for tech support or to try and get folks there to help you avoid the pain of reading man pages or doing your own research. It is a chat channel, first and foremost, and topics there are just as likely to involve sex, sports or nuclear weapons as they are FreeBSD. You Have Been Warned! Available at server irc.chat.org. Channel #FreeBSD on DALNET is available at irc.dal.net in the US and irc.eu.dal.net in Europe. Channel #FreeBSD on UNDERNET is available at us.undernet.org in the US and eu.undernet.org in Europe. Since it is a help channel, be prepared to read the documents you are referred to. Each of these channels are distinct and are not connected to each other. Their chat styles also differ, so you may need to try each to find one suited to your chat style. As with *all* types of IRC traffic, if you're easily offended or can't deal with lots of young people (and more than a few older ones) doing the verbal equivalent of jello wrestling, don't even bother with it. ---- All of the above text goes well out of its way to state several times that IRC is not a tech support medium and that if you're easily offended and/or can't deal with abuse, you shouldn't be in IRC in the first place. This whole thread started as a result of someone complaining about the treatment he got when he attempted to use it as such, after all, and I really don't know how we could possibly have made the FreeBSD project's position on IRC or our total lack of responsibility for it any clearer. It's in the FAQ, for chrissake. More to the point, I REALLY don't understand why the user in question took this question up on the freebsd-advocacy mailing list at all. It's like going into the local police station to demand that they force your sister to share her candy with you at home. The officers in question might get a good chuckle out of it the first time, but after 2 or 3 repetitions the whole act would get pretty old and they'd phone your mother to request that you not be allowed out by yourself again in public. The analogy is apt given that we get somebody whining about IRC in this or other freebsd mailing lists about once every 3 months or so, often enough that we went to the trouble to write that FAQ entry about it. If their mother's phone numbers were available, we might go that route too. To put it another way, do not expect the readers of this list to be somehow able to social-engineer EFNET's #freebsd channel into being kinder, gentler or more socially responsible FreeBSD advocates. It's an unachievable and thankless task and a frankly foolish thing to ask of the FreeBSD project. One might just as well ask the readers of this list to capture a Somali warlord or bring a permanant and lasting peace in Northern Ireland while they're wishing for impossible things from inappropriate groups of people. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 17:28:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC51737BBF8 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:28:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19158; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:30:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "William A. Carrel" Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, tcole@wcug.wwu.edu, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net Subject: Re: In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 May 2000 17:07:06 PDT." Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 17:30:24 -0700 Message-ID: <19155.957313824@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I didn't write the original complaint. It was someone else observing what > a bunch of assholes some of the IRC ops on #FreeBSD/EFNet are. And after > all the bitching and moaning done by the ops. Ops who should be able to > do whatever the hell they want because they don't see how it affects the > project, I thought I'd post and agree with the original message. Which brings about what positive results? This is a time-wasting exercise all around and you would have done just as much good to refrain from posting at all. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 17:46:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E460037BD2C for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:46:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000503004631.MLJY13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:46:31 -0700 Message-ID: <001101bfb498$fd5b21e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "John Papalia" Cc: , , References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <000901bfb3f8$c6d6f220$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502005033.A68966@edgemaster.zombie.org> <4.3.1.2.20000502103522.00ab5320@mail.udel.edu> <4.3.1.2.20000502181715.00ab1de0@mail.jpepconsulting.com> <4.3.1.2.20000502195211.00aa9100@mail.jpepconsulting.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:46:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The way I view it is simple - the channel "belongs" to the chan-ops for as > long as they (can) hold it. However, in this case the name of the channel > is also the name of the product. The name doesn't belong to the chan-ops > (unless someone actually associated with the project wants to correct me > here? please?). So, if you're going to run a channel with a name of a > product that apparently you support (otherwise why would you be on the > advocacy mailing list to begin with?), they just think about the fact that > your actions reflect on the product. Find a better way to "cure your > problems" (see above). > " > > There was, is, and shall be a "however" in my statement. > > Your cavalier "I'm right, you're wrong, get outta my face or I'll curse > some more at you even though this is a family show" attitude makes the > project look bad. Period. Quit being selective in your hearing. The reason I ignored the rest of your statement is that it was irrelavent. If you believe a channel belongs to the owners of the channel for as long as they can hold it, than any other conditions you put on that statement are irrelavent. > From some of the postings, your attitude and mantra are NOT held by all > the ops on #freebsd - just some. And given that the FAQ states it's a > "FreeBSD Forum", NOT a "Jeremiah Gowdy" forum, you should look past the end > of your nose and what you think is best for YOU and instead what is best > for the PROJECT. It's not even my channel, so why the hell is it what's best for me ? You're on crack. I was expressing my opinion, and that opinion is this, *If they have ops it's their channel, they can do as they see fit*. I never made this personal. You did. You're taking a simple debate about IRC Channel ownership and turning it into a personal flame war, and I won't have any part of it. If you don't like my opinion fine. But me expressing my opinion doesn't mean I'm trying to take over the forum or some such stupidity. What the hell are you talking about ? Jesus. Calm down, take a few deep breaths and go take a walk out side. It's only computers, it's not the Holy Jihad. I love FreeBSD too, and I'm all for promoting it, but the fact that we love FreeBSD doesn't mean the rules and standards of EfNet IRC are going to change for us. > If the channel is NOT associated with the Project, get the FAQ changed. > > THAT is what I said. Period. Someone already said they were doing that. Maybe if you weren't so busy ranting, you'd have noticed that. Period. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 17:51:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C242A37BCDF for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:51:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000503005139.MPEB13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:51:39 -0700 Message-ID: <001901bfb499$b4d95080$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "William A. Carrel" Cc: , , References: Subject: Re: Re: Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:51:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > It is rude to call someone a 'dumbfuck' when they ask a question and > demonstrate a moderate amount of technical knowledge. Shame on me for not > being polite in the face of insults. Ok, this is getting childish. If you can't handle someone calling you a name, you're going to have a hard time in this life. What, if someone calls you a dumbfuck on the street, are you going to write a letter to the Mayor saying how upset you are and how someone should do something to make people be more polite ? Gimmie a break. Grow up. > I didn't write the original complaint. It was someone else observing what > a bunch of assholes some of the IRC ops on #FreeBSD/EFNet are. And after > all the bitching and moaning done by the ops. Ops who should be able to > do whatever the hell they want because they don't see how it affects the > project, I thought I'd post and agree with the original message. Hey, I got this really great idea. You ready for it ? If you don't like the ops on #FreeBSD/EFNet........DON'T GO ON #FreeBSD/EFNet !!! lol ! The extreme mental processing it takes to discover such a concept cannot be expressed in words alone. > You can go ahead and be a pack of flaming jerks, there is nothing wrong > with this, it is perfectly your right. However it reflects poorly on the > project, it alienates users, and it makes enemies out of project leaders, > committers and contributers. Please take this into account before > committing any rash actions in the future. When kick banning someone is considered a "rash action" you've been logged on to IRC for too many hours. I recommend a 2-4 day break from IRC just to let a little reality mix back in with all those silly channel modes. Haven't you guys ever heard "Remember: It's only IRC" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 17:53:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from darjeeling.carrel.org (darjeeling.carrel.org [216.173.212.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8F76B37BCDF for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:53:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cysgod@mail.carrel.org) Received: (qmail 74130 invoked by uid 1000); 3 May 2000 00:53:16 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:53:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "William A. Carrel" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, tcole@wcug.wwu.edu, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net Subject: Re: In-Reply-To: <19155.957313824@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 2 May 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I didn't write the original complaint. It was someone else observing what > > a bunch of assholes some of the IRC ops on #FreeBSD/EFNet are. And after > > all the bitching and moaning done by the ops. Ops who should be able to > > do whatever the hell they want because they don't see how it affects the > > project, I thought I'd post and agree with the original message. > > Which brings about what positive results? This is a time-wasting > exercise all around and you would have done just as much good to > refrain from posting at all. Well I hoped if enough people expressed disgust with conduct on the channel that someone might vaguely consider being more polite. I apologize for wasting everyone's time, as obviously the reverse effect is true. In the future, maybe I'll be able to change things in a more pro-active way by deflecting people to Undernet and #freebsdhelp before they suffer the same fate I did. Maybe it'll catch on, maybe not, such is life. Sorry to waste your time, and I'll do my part to kill this thread by not replying further. -- William Carrel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 17:54:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (f99.law8.hotmail.com [216.33.241.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C5C4537BD25 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:54:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmd526@hotmail.com) Received: (qmail 53038 invoked by uid 0); 3 May 2000 00:54:38 -0000 Message-ID: <20000503005438.53037.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.220.228.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 02 May 2000 17:54:38 PDT X-Originating-IP: [209.220.228.2] From: "John Daniels" To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Fwd: GET OUT THE VOTE! Please support Java port to *BSD Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 20:54:38 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi: Since last week when the message below and other messages began to circulate, approximately 230 votes have been cast for the java port to *BSD. This has raised our total count to 3182, an increase of 7.75%. Additionally, it is heartening to read the comments left by those who have voted which clearly demonstrate the depth of loyalty that *BSD users have for their platform of choice. Greg Lewis, who heads the FreeBSD-java porting effort has released the first "alpha" patchset for FreeBSD, the seventh in a series of patchsets representing months of work by many *BSD-ers. These volunteers have made a tremendous effort that is sure to enhance the *BSD plaform whether Sun comes around to an "official" port or not. The best way to say "Thanks" is to 1) help with testing, 2) VOTE! FYI: I am not a part of the java porting team, just a user who would like to use a native port and support the *BSD platform. John Last week, John Daniels wrote: >Hi: > >In November 1999 a request for enhancement (RFE) was opened at Sun's >Java Developer's Connection titled: Port jdk 1.2.x to FreeBSD (bug >id: 4288745). > >Members of the Java Developer's Connection help prioritize bug fixes >and RFE's by voting for the one's that they believe are needed most. >The FreeBSD port RFE currently is the #1 request by far with 2953 >votes vs. 819 for the #2 request. > >Even with this wide lead, Sun has no obligation to make an official >port of Java to FreeBSD or *BSD, or to be helpful to the *BSD efforts >to port Java (see www.freebsd.org/java). The larger the number of >votes for our RFE, however, the more difficult it is for Sun to >ignore. And the more that we can widen the lead between our #1 RFE >and #2, the more dramatic a statement we (collectively) make. > >An official Java JDK port to FreeBSD would likely mean that all BSD'swould >benefit either by being able to use the FreeBSD port or by >being much closer to a port of their own. In fact, many who have >voted for the RFE have left comments supporting a port to *BSD, not >just FreeBSD. > >As you may know, Sun recently teamed with Inprise to create an >official port of Java to Linux (building on the work of Blackdown). >The *BSD's, with a large and loyal base of developers, also deserve >an official native version of Java. > >Please support the Java on *BSD effort by voting for the RFE at: >http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4288745.html If you >are not already a member of Sun's Java Developers Connection, >you will need to register before voting (membership is free). > >Your support is greatly appreciated. Thank you. > >John > >PS Please forward this message to any person, list, or organization >that may want to support this effort. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 17:56:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52CFE37BD0B for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:56:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000503005633.MSNM13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:56:33 -0700 Message-ID: <003901bfb49a$644267a0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "John Papalia" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: , , References: <19128.957313734@localhost> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:56:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Q: Are there FreeBSD IRC (Internet Relay Chat) channels? > > A: Yes, most major IRC networks host a FreeBSD chat channel: > > Channel #FreeBSD on EFNet is a FreeBSD forum, but don't go there > for tech support or to try and get folks there to help you avoid > the pain of reading man pages or doing your own research. It is a > chat channel, first and foremost, and topics there are just as likely > to involve sex, sports or nuclear weapons as they are > FreeBSD. You Have Been Warned! Available at server irc.chat.org. Freaking AMEN. Jesus there it is. In plain and simple text. How the hell can you possibly bitch when it says "YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED". God, get a life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 17:57:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8513337BCDF for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:57:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000503005716.MSZG13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Tue, 2 May 2000 17:57:16 -0700 Message-ID: <003f01bfb49a$7de535c0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "William A. Carrel" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: , , References: Subject: Re: Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:57:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Sorry to waste your time That's ok. lol. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 18: 2:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wondermutt.net (host75-157.student.udel.edu [128.175.75.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 533E537BD9A for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 18:02:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@jpepconsulting.com) Received: from morgaine.jpepconsulting.com (morgaine.wondermutt.net [192.168.1.2]) by wondermutt.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18186; Tue, 2 May 2000 21:05:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john@jpepconsulting.com) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000502204817.00b38d90@mail.jpepconsulting.com> X-Sender: john@mail.jpepconsulting.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 20:58:57 -0400 To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" From: John Papalia Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Cc: , , In-Reply-To: <001101bfb498$fd5b21e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <000901bfb3f8$c6d6f220$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502005033.A68966@edgemaster.zombie.org> <4.3.1.2.20000502103522.00ab5320@mail.udel.edu> <4.3.1.2.20000502181715.00ab1de0@mail.jpepconsulting.com> <4.3.1.2.20000502195211.00aa9100@mail.jpepconsulting.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I find it amazing that you (Jeremiah) spent dozens of emails calling people names and cursing at them, and as soon as someone puts an argument in front of you, you tell them to relax and go outside for a walk. I have had NO intention of turning this discussion into a personal flame war. Our views differ, and that's that. If you take personal offence, oh well. And as for changing the FAQ, I did, in fact, notice earlier today someone mentioned that they would ADD IN info about #freebsdhelp. To address the problem and completely clarify the FAQ, it should not say "#FreeBSD is a FreeBSD forum". It should instead say "there's this channel on IRC which we're not directly related to". It's called covering your butt. And yes, in the end run, it's all true - you can't change what people think or do on IRC. And yes, there are trigger happy people without patience abounding. I also never said that you're "trying to take over the forum". If you interpreted that from what I wrote, oh well. In the end run, there's no way to gauge if trigger-happy ops on a channel bearing the project name does or does not affect the expansion of the project. As I write this, I see that Jordon's spoken up on the topic... time to go read that, and, my guess is, let it end there. --John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 18:44:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5982037B891 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 18:44:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 17A381C5C; Tue, 2 May 2000 21:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 21:44:46 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Harold Gutch Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Travis Cole , Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000502214446.E86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> <001701bfb449$e103d400$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502235905.B1578@foobar.franken.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000502235905.B1578@foobar.franken.de>; from logix@foobar.franken.de on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 11:59:05PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 02, 2000 at 11:59:05PM +0200, Harold Gutch wrote: > > #FreeBSD is an IRC channel and owned by the operators. If they decide that > > Channels are not owned. They might be somewhat owned on > IRC-networks running chanserv, but EFNet isn't one of them. Exactly. They're owned by the people who have ops at the time. Play by the unfair, stupid, pigheaded, BOFHish rules. No alternatives. > > It's more a matter of asking questions in the wrong place. You may not be a > > FreeBSD newbie, but I would say your IRC experience is very weak. > > I'll let that stand for itself together with my reply above :). He said "owned by the [current] operators" which is true. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect Computer Horizons Corp - CVM e-mail: billf@chc-chimes.com / billf@FreeBSD.org Office: 800-252-2421 x128 / Cell: 248-761-7272 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 22:21:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DFCC37B7EB for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 22:21:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marisombra@mindspring.com) Received: from gaea.mindspring.com (user-2ive50r.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.20.27]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA28896; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:21:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.20000503011749.00ca7100@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: marisombra@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 01:21:26 -0400 To: Omachonu Ogali From: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG No you don't. I've been there plenty of times, and have spoken to very polite people who helped me a great deal. Should I call you a liar with the same rush to judgment as you call a person that asks a question in the channel a newbie, or cluebie? At 05/02/2000 07:20 PM Tuesday, you wrote: >The point is that it isn't a help channel and we emphasize that every 3-5 >minutes and everytime a question is asked. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 2 22:34:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7429A37B507 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 22:34:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marisombra@mindspring.com) Received: from gaea.mindspring.com (user-2ive50r.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.20.27]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA08230; Wed, 3 May 2000 01:34:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.20000503012424.00d214e0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: marisombra@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 01:34:43 -0400 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , John Papalia From: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Cc: "Jeremiah Gowdy" , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19128.957313734@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 05/02/2000 08:28 PM Tuesday, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > If the channel is NOT associated with the Project, get the FAQ changed. > >Actually, what the FAQ states is pretty clear though I'll repeat it >here since I think people have, nonetheless, lost the thread: > > From http://www.freebsd.org/FAQ/preface.html#AEN210: > >Q: Are there FreeBSD IRC (Internet Relay Chat) channels? > >A: Yes, most major IRC networks host a FreeBSD chat channel: > > Channel #FreeBSD on EFNet is a FreeBSD forum, but don't go there >for tech support or to try and get folks there to help you avoid > the pain of reading man pages or doing your own research. It is a >chat channel, first and foremost, and topics there are just as likely > to involve sex, sports or nuclear weapons as they are >FreeBSD. You Have Been Warned! Available at server irc.chat.org. This reads that "if you've tried man pages, web site, etc. etc. then maybe you'll find what you're looking for in #freebsd. All it says is that it isn't tech support, it isn't a first choice resource. That wording is in fact, NOT clear. >All of the above text goes well out of its way to state several times >that IRC is not a tech support medium and that if you're easily >offended and/or can't deal with abuse, you shouldn't be in IRC in the >first place. This whole thread started as a result of someone >complaining about the treatment he got when he attempted to use it as >such, after all, and I really don't know how we could possibly have >made the FreeBSD project's position on IRC or our total lack of >responsibility for it any clearer. It's in the FAQ, for chrissake. ( Correction, the thread started with someone voicing concern about FreeBSD advocacy due to the treatment of someone else, it was not complaining. ) I quote: " Channel #FreeBSD on EFNet is a FreeBSD forum" A FreeBSD forum, now what exactly is that supposed to mean to a new person, you tell me? Again, it's not clear, and the FAQ does not state what you claim. I can't believe JKH of all people doesn't see the impact even IRC has on public perception of the project. Regardless of what you want to think, JKH, you're not the one that decides what people new or old to freebsd think or feel as a result of mal-treatment in #freebsd. >More to the point, I REALLY don't understand why the user in question >took this question up on the freebsd-advocacy mailing list at all. >It's like going into the local police station to demand that they >force your sister to share her candy with you at home. See above, the original post has something to do directly with FreeBSD advocacy. The original post was polite and clear, unlike responses from supposed freebsd "advocates." I could paste the entire original post in its entirety, but then again, we all have access to the archives, don't we. >To put it another way, do not expect the readers of this list to be >somehow able to social-engineer EFNET's #freebsd channel into being >kinder, gentler or more socially responsible FreeBSD advocates. It's >an unachievable and thankless task and a frankly foolish thing to ask >of the FreeBSD project. Nobody ever asked for this to happen. >One might just as well ask the readers of >this list to capture a Somali warlord or bring a permanant and lasting >peace in Northern Ireland while they're wishing for impossible things >from inappropriate groups of people. Again, a perfectly on topic discussion blown off by none other than: >- Jordan >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 2:20:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6C5637B654 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 02:20:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA20557; Wed, 3 May 2000 02:21:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , John Papalia , "Jeremiah Gowdy" , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 May 2000 01:34:43 EDT." <4.3.2.20000503012424.00d214e0@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 02:21:41 -0700 Message-ID: <20554.957345701@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Channel #FreeBSD on EFNet is a FreeBSD forum, but don't go there > >for tech support or to try and get folks there to help you avoid > This reads that "if you've tried man pages, web site, etc. etc. then maybe > you'll find what you're looking for in #freebsd. All it says is that it No, if your first language is english then it most definitely does not say any such thing. "don't go there for tech support" means exactly that, it doesn't mean "maybe you'll find what you're looking for in #freebsd" as you've somehow tried to creatively interpret it. I also don't see how any part of this conversation has been "on topic" - that's a major stretch! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 3:18:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hydrant.intranova.net (msb-ts-slip01.UMDNJ.EDU [130.219.28.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1CC2337B9E7 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 03:18:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oogali@intranova.net) Received: (qmail 15670 invoked from network); 3 May 2000 10:18:02 -0000 Received: from localhost.abuselabs.com (HELO localhost) (missnglnk@127.0.0.1) by localhost.abuselabs.com with SMTP; 3 May 2000 10:18:02 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 06:18:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Omachonu Ogali To: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20000503011749.00ca7100@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Almost everything that ends with a '?' gets a reply someway, somehow about #freebsdhelp. It's not a matter of being a newbie or cluebie. Yes, some people help, but the majority of the time, they don't. It's emphasized via /topic's, /kick's, and channel messages, but people to continue to ban-evade, DoS operators, flood the channel, and throw insults back. Ask John Baldwin about his experience yesterday, someone came in for help, he said to go to either #freebsdhelp or questions@freebsd.org and they responded with an insult, one of the persons involved in this thread was logged saying 'fuck you too' after a channel operator *helped* him. The more abuse that pops up results in more kicking and banning (or op abuse as people like to refer to it). Take a look at the logs and you'll see the responses we get after we tell them it's not a help channel. Examples: "I don't wanna read the FAQ, it's too long." "Can't you just tell me here?" "That man page doesn't exist." Furthermore, this thread should die, the FAQ explains that #FreeBSD on EFnet isn't a help channel, there may be some occasional help, but that doesn't give you the God-given right to expect it at all times. Like the FAQ says, "YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED." On Wed, 3 May 2000, Daniel J. Zaccariello wrote: > No you don't. I've been there plenty of times, and have spoken to very > polite people who helped me a great deal. Should I call you a liar with > the same rush to judgment as you call a person that asks a question in the > channel a newbie, or cluebie? > > At 05/02/2000 07:20 PM Tuesday, you wrote: > >The point is that it isn't a help channel and we emphasize that every 3-5 > >minutes and everytime a question is asked. > > -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Omachonu Ogali oogali@intranova.net | | Intranova Networking Group http://tribune.intranova.net | | PGP Key ID: 0xBFE60839 | | PGP Fingerprint: C8 51 14 FD 2A 87 53 D1 E3 AA 12 12 01 93 BD 34 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 3:27:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 315F637B7C5 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 03:27:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 2884 invoked from network); 3 May 2000 10:27:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (144.16.71.128) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 3 May 2000 10:27:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 797 invoked by uid 211); 3 May 2000 10:27:12 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 15:57:11 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" , John Papalia , Jeremiah Gowdy , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Attitudes towards newbies (was Re: FreeBSD and IRC) Message-ID: <20000503155711.A754@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.20000503012424.00d214e0@pop.mindspring.com> <20554.957345701@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20554.957345701@localhost>; from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 02:21:41AM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.32 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard said on May 3, 2000 at 02:21:41: > > > Channel #FreeBSD on EFNet is a FreeBSD forum, but don't go there > > >for tech support or to try and get folks there to help you avoid > > > This reads that "if you've tried man pages, web site, etc. etc. then maybe > > you'll find what you're looking for in #freebsd. All it says is that it > > No, if your first language is english then it most definitely does not > say any such thing. "don't go there for tech support" means exactly > that, it doesn't mean "maybe you'll find what you're looking for in > #freebsd" as you've somehow tried to creatively interpret it. > > I also don't see how any part of this conversation has been "on > topic" - that's a major stretch! Since JKH hath spoken, does that mean this is the official statement on this subject? This is most definitely on topic: it concerns early experiences of many new users in support, which will affect whether they choose to start using the system or not, and whether they will in turn advocate it to others. More than that, this whole thread speaks of the attitudes of the senior members of the project: if newbies make mistakes, it's ok to walk all over them and it's all their fault. If you're serious about keeping newbies away from #freebsd, make it totally unambiguous. Why put in such vague wording that only suggests that you may not get the help you want and may end up discussing sex instead? If you don't want them to ask questions, **tell them plainly not to ask questions**. When you say the talk may include anything from sex to nukes, surely most normal people won't imagine that asking freebsd questions on a #freebsd channel is sufficiently offtopic to lead to kicking. And why is it buried in the FAQ? Put it on http://www.freebsd.org/support.html where it belongs. Where do you think someone who learns about #freebsd and wants to know about it will look first? Why make that "first language" statement? Apart from sounding condescending, are you suggesting that only English speakers should use the system? I could go on and on, but since you claim this is not "on-topic", I'll say exactly why it's on-topic for me. We're planning to get a few new systems. The default choice would be linux, but I was pushing for FreeBSD on at least one or two systems. Others argue that nobody knows much about FreeBSD locally and I won't be here for very long, so linux would be a safer choice. I didn't give much importance to that argument (anyone can learn...) but after reading this thread, and especially your contributions, JKH (considering your position), I'm having a serious rethink. If I still haven't made it clear: I'm not arguing that tech support questions should be allowed on #freebsd -- I neither know nor care about that, I don't use IRC. But it's a clear that a problem exists, and I'm shocked that you want to deny the problem rather than suggest solutions, and your attitude towards newbies sucks. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 3:49:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 521C937BBAE for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 03:49:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA20804; Wed, 3 May 2000 03:49:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Daniel J. Zaccariello" , John Papalia , Jeremiah Gowdy , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Attitudes towards newbies (was Re: FreeBSD and IRC) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 May 2000 15:57:11 +0530." <20000503155711.A754@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 03:49:53 -0700 Message-ID: <20801.957350993@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > This is most definitely on topic: it concerns early experiences of > many new users in support, which will affect whether they choose > to start using the system or not, and whether they will in turn > advocate it to others. I hardly see what IRC, a medium which the FreeBSD project does not control or endorse in any way, has to do with the question of "providing support for newbies." > More than that, this whole thread speaks of the attitudes of the > senior members of the project: if newbies make mistakes, it's ok to > walk all over them and it's all their fault. No, the senior members of the project (those which actually care, anyway) simply feel that getting your advice from the equivalent of the street corner is not likely to be a winning prospect. We have mailing lists for this and enforce our own rules of etiquette on them. Anything else is entirely at your own risk and not really a topic for advocacy@freebsd.org unless you want to share details of a particularly successful method for advocating FreeBSD. > And why is it buried in the FAQ? Nobody has bothered to write any wording for the support section. > Why make that "first language" statement? Apart from sounding > condescending, are you suggesting that only English speakers should > use the system? No, I was making the point that only someone who clearly did not understand english could possibly interpret a statement of "don't go here for tech support" as "you can sometimes go here for tech support." > I could go on and on, but since you claim this is not "on-topic", I'll > say exactly why it's on-topic for me. We're planning to get a few new > systems. That's fine. But if you attempt to get your support on IRC, you'll still have problems. That's the only point I've *EVER* tried to make here and if you're somehow reading into this a hatred of newbies in general then you're hallucinating wildly. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 4:24:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6881337BE01 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 04:24:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 3028 invoked by uid 211); 3 May 2000 11:24:22 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 16:54:22 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" , John Papalia , Jeremiah Gowdy , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Attitudes towards newbies (was Re: FreeBSD and IRC) Message-ID: <20000503165421.A2972@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000503155711.A754@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20801.957350993@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20801.957350993@localhost>; from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 03:49:53AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard said on May 3, 2000 at 03:49:53: > > This is most definitely on topic: it concerns early experiences of > > many new users in support, which will affect whether they choose > > to start using the system or not, and whether they will in turn > > advocate it to others. > > I hardly see what IRC, a medium which the FreeBSD project does not > control or endorse in any way, has to do with the question of > "providing support for newbies." I can't figure out whether you're pretending not to understand the issue, or really not understanding it despite the last paragraph of my earlier mail. The issue is not whether IRC should provide support. It is not whether the FreeBSD project should endorse the medium. The issue is that users seem to be having bad experiences there, and you have yourself said it's nothing new, so the project should more clearly dissociate itself from it -- and make it much clearer that it is not advisable to go there -- rather than merely say afterwards "it's none of our business." You have yourself said that this is not a new problem and it keeps happening. Moreover, the *responsible* FreeBSD team members on that channel (and it is clear that there are several) should take care to see that they don't unnecessarily turn people off. Redirect them elsewhere, but do it nicely; kick them only if they refuse to go away on their own. To repeat: many people may think, without intending harm, that #freebsd is a suitable place for tech questions. Many free software projects in fact do seem to have IRC channels for this. So make it clear, on the web page, that this is not the place. "It is a FreeBSD forum...Don't go there for tech support... it is a chat channel first and foremost" only suggests that it may not be helpful, not that it is actively forbidden. And even that statement, weak as it is, would belong better on the support page. But anything leading to bad user experiences, or to negative associations in people's minds with FreeBSD, should be of concern to -advocacy. Sorry for being repetitive but I'm amazed this is not getting across. > Anything else is entirely at your own risk and not really a topic for > advocacy@freebsd.org unless you want to share details of a > particularly successful method for advocating FreeBSD. Want to know the most successful method? Being nice to people. Everything else, even the merits of the system, comes afterwards: nobody enjoys rudeness. > > And why is it buried in the FAQ? > > Nobody has bothered to write any wording for the support section. OK here it is: IRC: While #freebsd channels exist, the FreeBSD project does not control them and does not endorse IRC as a support medium. You may be ignored, insulted or kicked out if you ask questions there. Since these channels are not official, we are not listing them here. If you still want to try them, it is at your own risk. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 4:43:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E8D537BA8E for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 04:43:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA21008; Wed, 3 May 2000 04:44:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Daniel J. Zaccariello" , John Papalia , Jeremiah Gowdy , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Attitudes towards newbies (was Re: FreeBSD and IRC) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 May 2000 16:54:22 +0530." <20000503165421.A2972@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 04:44:15 -0700 Message-ID: <21005.957354255@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I can't figure out whether you're pretending not to understand the > issue, or really not understanding it despite the last paragraph of > my earlier mail. The issue is not whether IRC should provide support. That's the only issue I see here. Talking about this being our business when it's clearly not is simply a non-sequitur as far as I'm concerned. > OK here it is: > > IRC: While #freebsd channels exist, the FreeBSD project does not Excellent. Committed with just a few tweaks, so it now says: While #freebsd channels exist on various IRC networks, the FreeBSD project does not control them or endorse IRC as a support medium. You may be ignored, insulted or kicked out if you ask questions on any channel in IRC, though you may have slightly better luck in channels named #freebsdhelp where such exist. If you want to try these or any other channels on IRC, it is nonetheless at your own risk and any complaints about conduct on those channels should not be directed to the FreeBSD project. See also the FAQ entry for more information. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 4:53:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.Surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11C4D37B639 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 04:53:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (p3E9C1168.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.156.17.104]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29929; Wed, 3 May 2000 12:52:18 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFFD2AC2C; Wed, 3 May 2000 13:57:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA04079; Wed, 3 May 2000 13:53:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 13:53:27 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: Travis Cole , "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000503135327.C2725@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <20000501221654.A20589@wcug.wwu.edu> <000f01bfb3f9$5db2f0e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502000316.A24887@wcug.wwu.edu> <20000502094046.B2489@cichlids.cichlids.com> <002801bfb44a$9744a0a0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502173315.A6023@cichlids.cichlids.com> <001801bfb481$08e88420$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <001801bfb481$08e88420$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com>; from jgowdy@home.com on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 02:54:38PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake Jeremiah Gowdy (jgowdy@home.com): > lost beyond any repair. And as I said before, the channel owners can run > the channel as they see fit. Period. They can. That was not the intention behind the posting that started this thread. The question was, if it's good advocacy for FreeBSD, if the owners do. Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 6:26:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from oxygen.che.ilstu.edu (oxygen.che.ilstu.edu [138.87.101.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A889737BC1C for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 06:25:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jamie@bishopston.net) Received: from bishopston.net ([24.68.200.91]) by oxygen.che.ilstu.edu (MX V4.2 VAX) with SMTP; Wed, 03 May 2000 14:26:59 BST Received: (from jamie@localhost) by bishopston.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA09641; Wed, 3 May 2000 14:20:37 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from ) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 14:20:37 +0100 (BST) From: Jamie Jones Message-ID: <200005031320.OAA09641@bishopston.net> To: cysgod@carrel.org, jgowdy@home.com Subject: Re: Re: Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, tcole@wcug.wwu.edu In-Reply-To: <001901bfb499$b4d95080$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jeremiah Gowdy" wrote: > Haven't you guys ever heard "Remember: It's only IRC" Very apt from the person in this thread posting the most passionately on the subject! As pointed out earlier, however clear things are mentioned in FAQ's, you'll always get some newbie who strays in, and in my experience, a FreeBSD newbie is generally a potential Linux user. Sure, the Linux IRC groups may be just as rude, and sure, no-one can tell you what to do with your IRC channel, but the name IS going to mislead some, whatever the FAQ says. Ignorant user ? Maybe. Should we care? It's only IRC. It's only a channel name. If you cared about FreeBSD advocacy, you'd rename your channel to something less misleading. No doubt, your reply will be "Why should we?". That's your perogative. However, in the scheme of things, it's simply not all that important, and this thread has just turned into a pointless (from an advocacy point of view) flamefest. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 6:52:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F64D37BC97 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 06:52:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000503135216.BKQW13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Wed, 3 May 2000 06:52:16 -0700 Message-ID: <001001bfb506$c3d7e340$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" Cc: References: <20000501183644.A75942@lunatic.oneinsane.net> <000901bfb3f8$c6d6f220$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> <20000502005033.A68966@edgemaster.zombie.org> <4.3.1.2.20000502103522.00ab5320@mail.udel.edu> <4.3.2.20000503010212.00a9dca0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 06:52:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 10:02 PM Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC > asshole > > This is exactly why these people are kick banned. After all the B.S. clears, they're still full of flames. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 7: 1:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788BF37B76C for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 07:01:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000503140113.BPIT13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Wed, 3 May 2000 07:01:13 -0700 Message-ID: <001601bfb508$03a9f8e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "John Papalia" , "Daniel J. Zaccariello" Cc: , , References: <4.3.2.20000503012424.00d214e0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:01:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >A: Yes, most major IRC networks host a FreeBSD chat channel: > > > > Channel #FreeBSD on EFNet is a FreeBSD forum, but don't go there > >for tech support or to try and get folks there to help you avoid > > the pain of reading man pages or doing your own research. It is a > >chat channel, first and foremost, and topics there are just as likely > > to involve sex, sports or nuclear weapons as they are > >FreeBSD. You Have Been Warned! Available at server irc.chat.org. > > > This reads that "if you've tried man pages, web site, etc. etc. then maybe > you'll find what you're looking for in #freebsd. All it says is that it > isn't tech support, it isn't a first choice resource. That wording is in > fact, NOT clear. lol. If that's the way you choose to interpret the paragraph, then no wonder you're confused. It says: "don't go there for": (a) "tech support" (b) "to try and get folks there to help you avoid the pain of reading man pages" (c) "or doing your own research" So that means that even if your question was NOT in a man page, you are still responsible for "doing your own research". And 99% of the people's questions are in a man page. It doesn't matter how you try to twist the words to your satisfaction because it says plain and simple, "You Have Been Warned!" > I quote: " Channel #FreeBSD on EFNet is a FreeBSD forum" That is a fragment of a quote because it fails to notice the condition attached to the statement. "Channel #FreeBSD on EFNet is a FreeBSD forum, BUT but don't go there for tech support or to try and get folks there to help you avoid the pain of reading man pages or doing your own research" Period. If this supposed new person cannot read the entire paragraph, or even the end of this sentence, that is their problem. > >To put it another way, do not expect the readers of this list to be > >somehow able to social-engineer EFNET's #freebsd channel into being > >kinder, gentler or more socially responsible FreeBSD advocates. It's > >an unachievable and thankless task and a frankly foolish thing to ask > >of the FreeBSD project. > > Nobody ever asked for this to happen. Then explain the point of bitching about it on the mailing list. > >One might just as well ask the readers of > >this list to capture a Somali warlord or bring a permanant and lasting > >peace in Northern Ireland while they're wishing for impossible things > >from inappropriate groups of people. > > Again, a perfectly on topic discussion blown off by none other than: > >- Jordan Again, another flame let loose by Daniel, not to mention the private email he sent me, calling me an asshole. Quite on-topic there my friend. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 7: 6:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD0AE37BC5A for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 07:06:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000503140635.BSJB13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Wed, 3 May 2000 07:06:35 -0700 Message-ID: <003201bfb508$c3bd6b80$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" , "John Papalia" , , , References: <20000503155711.A754@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20801.957350993@localhost> <20000503165421.A2972@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: Attitudes towards newbies (was Re: FreeBSD and IRC) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:06:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > IRC: While #freebsd channels exist, the FreeBSD project does not > control them and does not endorse IRC as a support medium. You may be > ignored, insulted or kicked out if you ask questions there. Since > these channels are not official, we are not listing them here. If you > still want to try them, it is at your own risk. Plain, simple, and to the point. I like it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 7: 7:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86E6D37B679 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 07:07:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000503140738.BSWX13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Wed, 3 May 2000 07:07:38 -0700 Message-ID: <003e01bfb508$e9308460$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Daniel J. Zaccariello" , "John Papalia" , , , References: <21005.957354255@localhost> Subject: Re: IRC Support Statement (was Re: FreeBSD and IRC) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:07:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > While #freebsd channels exist on various IRC networks, the FreeBSD > project does not control them or endorse IRC as a support medium. > You may be ignored, insulted or kicked out if you ask questions on > any channel in IRC, though you may have slightly better luck > in channels named #freebsdhelp where such exist. If you want > to try these or any other channels on IRC, it is nonetheless > at your own risk and any complaints about conduct on those channels > should not be directed to the FreeBSD project. See also > the FAQ entry for > more information. > > - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 7:19:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F0F37BC23 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 07:19:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000503141952.CACT13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Wed, 3 May 2000 07:19:52 -0700 Message-ID: <004a01bfb50a$9ee56f40$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Jamie Jones" , Cc: , , References: <200005031320.OAA09641@bishopston.net> Subject: Re: Re: Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:19:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Sure, the Linux IRC groups may be just as rude, and sure, no-one can > tell you what to do with your IRC channel, but the name IS going to > mislead some, whatever the FAQ says. Ignorant user ? Maybe. Should we care? > > It's only IRC. It's only a channel name. If you cared about FreeBSD > advocacy, you'd rename your channel to something less misleading. > No doubt, your reply will be "Why should we?". That's your perogative. > > However, in the scheme of things, it's simply not all that important, > and this thread has just turned into a pointless (from an advocacy point > of view) flamefest. Ok, at least you can make some acceptable points to reply to. I like that. (a) "If you cared about FreeBSD advocacy, you'd rename your channel to something less misleading" This statement is obviously directed at the owners of the channel. So, why exactly was this thread started on advocacy@freebsd.org if the message was directed to the channel owners ? I don't think that was the case. I think the who wrote the original document was trying to get in here and see how many other unhappy new guys he could get behind him and somehow try to force the owners hands' in changing the channel rules. If it was directed at the owners of the channel, it was not the right place to send such a message, because most of them new nothing of the message, until I notified them and forwarded the message. No matter how much the original poster and his disgruntled buddy claim otherwise, this was their entire purpose, to try to somehow tie their ignorance with freebsd advocacy, and put pressure on the channel owners. (b) If they "renamed" the channel, who would take over the old one ? Would they be able to hold it ? Or would it get taken by some lame DoS group and set +i ? (c) > However, in the scheme of things, it's simply not all that important, > and this thread has just turned into a pointless (from an advocacy point > of view) flamefest. Exactly. I still can't figure out how these people are twisting their point of view into knots trying to make this appear an issue of FreeBSD advocacy. If the original poster wants to be a FreeBSD advocate, and feels that #freebsd/EfNet is to FreeBSD as the Anti-Christ is to God-himself, then the original poster should take the channel over and make it a happy channel where all the newbies can come and play. Of course he would have a hard time taking over the channel but he could get some of the other disgruntled buddies to help him. It'd be a sort of revenge of the nerds type thing. All in the name of freebsd advocacy and making the world a safer place for people who don't like to read FAQs and manpages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 7:28:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lunatic.oneinsane.net (lunatic.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B641F37BF41 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 07:28:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net) Received: by lunatic.oneinsane.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7C3925DA9; Wed, 3 May 2000 07:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:28:17 -0700 From: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000503072817.A5381@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Reply-To: Ron Rosson References: <4.3.2.20000503012424.00d214e0@pop.mindspring.com> <001601bfb508$03a9f8e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <001601bfb508$03a9f8e0$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com>; from jgowdy@home.com on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 07:01:01AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD lunatic.oneinsane.net 4.0-STABLE X-Moon: The Moon is New X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net X-PGP-KEY: http://www.oneinsane.net/~insane/insane2-pgp5i.txt X-Uptime: 7:16AM up 5 days, 10:57, 1 user, load averages: 0.58, 0.18, 0.06 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well I started this thread, so I thought I would comment a little: First all the post was not about IRC it was just to get people to discuss and made aware that IRC could be used as a good marketing tool or just an easy way to bring new users in to the fold. I do not know about you but in the my last 5 years of using FreeBSD I have watched things change. There is now more effort on making FreeBSD a marketable product to the public than in the past. Take a look at the date on the CD's. You can tell things have been stepped up a bit. Dont get my wrong I have nothing against linux opening doors and spearheading the way into the corporate market. It just makes it that much easier for us. But what happens when their spearheading is no longer there or if it shifts to FreeBSD opening new doors. Well I am ouuta here. I will either be on #FreeBSD or #FreeBSDHelp TIA -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A single fact can ruin a good argument. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 7:44:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wondermutt.net (host75-157.student.udel.edu [128.175.75.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1EC337BBB9 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 07:44:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@jpepconsulting.com) Received: from morgaine.jpepconsulting.com (morgaine.wondermutt.net [192.168.1.2]) by wondermutt.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25842; Wed, 3 May 2000 10:45:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john@jpepconsulting.com) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000503103733.00b3db70@mail.udel.edu> X-Sender: john@mail.jpepconsulting.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 10:39:03 -0400 To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" , "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: John Papalia Subject: Re: Attitudes towards newbies (was Re: FreeBSD and IRC) Cc: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" , "John Papalia" , , , In-Reply-To: <003201bfb508$c3bd6b80$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> References: <20000503155711.A754@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20801.957350993@localhost> <20000503165421.A2972@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > IRC: While #freebsd channels exist, the FreeBSD project does not > > control them and does not endorse IRC as a support medium. You may be > > ignored, insulted or kicked out if you ask questions there. Since > > these channels are not official, we are not listing them here. If you > > still want to try them, it is at your own risk. > >Plain, simple, and to the point. I like it. Amazing... why amazing? That's all that I was trying to say/explain all along..... and you like it..... Oh well? --John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 7:45:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C7837BB36 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 07:45:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000503144554.CRBA13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Wed, 3 May 2000 07:45:54 -0700 Message-ID: <00cf01bfb50e$42197f00$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "John Papalia" Cc: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" , "John Papalia" , , , References: <20000503155711.A754@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20801.957350993@localhost> <20000503165421.A2972@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000503103733.00b3db70@mail.udel.edu> Subject: Re: Attitudes towards newbies (was Re: FreeBSD and IRC) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:45:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.1800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.1800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >Plain, simple, and to the point. I like it. > > Amazing... why amazing? That's all that I was trying to say/explain all > along..... and you like it..... > > Oh well? An understanding is better late than never. And it's usually one of the two, late or never. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 8:52:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 600BC37BBA0 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 08:52:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 669BE1C5C; Wed, 3 May 2000 11:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 11:52:02 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , John Papalia , Jeremiah Gowdy , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000503115202.G86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <19128.957313734@localhost> <4.3.2.20000503012424.00d214e0@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20000503012424.00d214e0@pop.mindspring.com>; from marisombra@mindspring.com on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 01:34:43AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 01:34:43AM -0400, Daniel J. Zaccariello wrote: > This reads that "if you've tried man pages, web site, etc. etc. then maybe > you'll find what you're looking for in #freebsd. All it says is that it > isn't tech support, it isn't a first choice resource. That wording is in > fact, NOT clear. Your lack of comprehension is astounding. Even if the FAQ said "#FreeBSD will help you with any questions and give you service with a smile", that would really mean shit. It's IRC. > Again, a perfectly on topic discussion blown off by none other than: > >- Jordan EFNet is not a resource that FreeBSD (the organization, not the operating system) controls, therefore, it's off-topic. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect Computer Horizons Corp - CVM e-mail: billf@chc-chimes.com / billf@FreeBSD.org Office: 800-252-2421 x128 / Cell: 248-761-7272 PS. Die. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 8:52:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAEF237BC94 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 08:52:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marisombra@mindspring.com) Received: from gaea.mindspring.com (user-2ive495.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.17.37]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA25595; Wed, 3 May 2000 11:51:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.20000503114015.00c0abd0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: marisombra@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 11:52:17 -0400 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , John Papalia , "Jeremiah Gowdy" , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20554.957345701@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Who is guilty of selective reading now, JKH? Here is the part of the FAQ you left out: "...for tech support or to try and get folks there to help you avoid the pain of reading man pages or doing your own research. It is a chat channel, first and foremost, and topics there are just as likely to involve sex, sports or nuclear weapons as they are FreeBSD. " Don't insult me. This isn't about my mastery of the English language (which is beyond yours, without a doubt). It is about how someone looking for help will interpret that FAQ entry. The original poster had stated that the person being maltreated had already searched through all available resources, then tried to ask in #FreeBSD. As much as Omachonu wants to protest, the fact is that it is not always clear that the ops in #FreeBSD so detest the question mark. I have two religions, FreeBSD, and my work. I must say my faith is being tested by all of this. What is causing your myopia? What is so difficult to understand that a channel bearing the project's name has an impact on public perception of the project? That is, after all, part of advocacy, is it not? The type of behavior you're condoning is one of the most compelling reasons I will not use Linux or recommend Linux to new users I meet (save for Debian, I've found the people on #debian on irc.debian.org to be very friendly). At 05/03/2000 05:21 AM Wednesday, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Channel #FreeBSD on EFNet is a FreeBSD forum, but don't go there > > >for tech support or to try and get folks there to help you avoid > > > This reads that "if you've tried man pages, web site, etc. etc. then maybe > > you'll find what you're looking for in #freebsd. All it says is that it > >No, if your first language is english then it most definitely does not >say any such thing. "don't go there for tech support" means exactly >that, it doesn't mean "maybe you'll find what you're looking for in >#freebsd" as you've somehow tried to creatively interpret it. > >I also don't see how any part of this conversation has been "on >topic" - that's a major stretch! > >- Jordan > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 9: 9: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB8F337BC0B for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 09:08:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marisombra@mindspring.com) Received: from gaea.mindspring.com (user-2ive495.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.17.37]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00107; Wed, 3 May 2000 12:08:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.20000503120218.0454aab0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: marisombra@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 12:09:17 -0400 To: Bill Fumerola From: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000503115202.G86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <4.3.2.20000503012424.00d214e0@pop.mindspring.com> <19128.957313734@localhost> <4.3.2.20000503012424.00d214e0@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This doesn't show lack of comprehension by anyone but yourself. Your attempt is laughable At 05/03/2000 11:52 AM Wednesday, Bill Fumerola wrote: >On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 01:34:43AM -0400, Daniel J. Zaccariello wrote: > > > This reads that "if you've tried man pages, web site, etc. etc. then maybe > > you'll find what you're looking for in #freebsd. All it says is that it > > isn't tech support, it isn't a first choice resource. That wording is in > > fact, NOT clear. > >Your lack of comprehension is astounding. > >Even if the FAQ said "#FreeBSD will help you with any questions and give >you service with a smile", that would really mean shit. It's IRC. > > > Again, a perfectly on topic discussion blown off by none other than: > > >- Jordan > >EFNet is not a resource that FreeBSD (the organization, not the operating >system) controls, therefore, it's off-topic. You can't separate the two. Besides, JKH is an op there, as are other "heavy hitters" in the project. Yours, and JKH's attitude towards this whole thing is deplorable, "IRC will be IRC, so let's ignore it." That's exactly how to not have a useful conversation. You would have been better off trying to make valid points rather than selectively read and quote from both posts to this list and the FAQ. >-- >Bill Fumerola - Network Architect >Computer Horizons Corp - CVM >e-mail: billf@chc-chimes.com / billf@FreeBSD.org >Office: 800-252-2421 x128 / Cell: 248-761-7272 > > >PS. Die. You first. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 9:17:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F55237B923 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 09:17:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 98F7A1C5C; Wed, 3 May 2000 12:17:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 12:17:17 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000503121717.I86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <4.3.2.20000503012424.00d214e0@pop.mindspring.com> <19128.957313734@localhost> <4.3.2.20000503012424.00d214e0@pop.mindspring.com> <20000503115202.G86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> <4.3.2.20000503120218.0454aab0@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20000503120218.0454aab0@pop.mindspring.com>; from marisombra@mindspring.com on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 12:09:17PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 12:09:17PM -0400, Daniel J. Zaccariello wrote: > This doesn't show lack of comprehension by anyone but yourself. Your > attempt is laughable Darn. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect Computer Horizons Corp - CVM e-mail: billf@chc-chimes.com / billf@FreeBSD.org Office: 800-252-2421 x128 / Cell: 248-761-7272 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 9:41:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BFB3037B7C2 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 09:41:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 889 invoked from network); 3 May 2000 16:40:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (144.16.71.128) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 3 May 2000 16:40:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 555 invoked by uid 211); 3 May 2000 16:40:43 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 22:10:43 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , John Papalia , Jeremiah Gowdy , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000503221042.A550@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20554.957345701@localhost> <4.3.2.20000503114015.00c0abd0@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20000503114015.00c0abd0@pop.mindspring.com>; from marisombra@mindspring.com on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 11:52:17AM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.32 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I have two religions, FreeBSD, and my work. I must say my faith is being > tested by all of this. What is causing your myopia? What is so difficult > to understand that a channel bearing the project's name has an impact on > public perception of the project? That is, after all, part of advocacy, is > it not? The type of behavior you're condoning is one of the most > compelling reasons I will not use Linux or recommend Linux to new users I > meet (save for Debian, I've found the people on #debian on irc.debian.org > to be very friendly). FWIW: I've never seen this sort of attitude in the linux world. Sure, there are the flamers on Slashdot and so on, but they are mostly kids who have no clue and have never actually contributed to linux in the first place. And even they don't often flame "clueless newbies", only windows lovers and people like that. The big difference here is that some of the most obnoxious-sounding people on this thread are listed as core members, developers and so on. Hearing such opinions from JKH is like hearing them from Linus Torvalds or Alan Cox, not from some anonymous troller. The knowledgeable Linux people never try to alienate the user community in this way. Which is exactly why the whole topic *does* belong on advocacy. Much of the linux users' loyalty to their system is because of the pleasant experience they get from the "community". Whereas a lurker on this list reading this thread would come away with a very bad impression. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 10: 3:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B84737BC95 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 10:03:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e43HXdu16101; Wed, 3 May 2000 10:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:33:38 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" Cc: Bill Fumerola , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000503103338.C13668@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <4.3.2.20000503012424.00d214e0@pop.mindspring.com> <19128.957313734@localhost> <4.3.2.20000503012424.00d214e0@pop.mindspring.com> <20000503115202.G86725@jade.chc-chimes.com> <4.3.2.20000503120218.0454aab0@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20000503120218.0454aab0@pop.mindspring.com>; from marisombra@mindspring.com on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 12:09:17PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Daniel J. Zaccariello [000503 09:40] wrote: > This doesn't show lack of comprehension by anyone but yourself. Your > attempt is laughable > > At 05/03/2000 11:52 AM Wednesday, Bill Fumerola wrote: > >On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 01:34:43AM -0400, Daniel J. Zaccariello wrote: > > > > > This reads that "if you've tried man pages, web site, etc. etc. then maybe > > > you'll find what you're looking for in #freebsd. All it says is that it > > > isn't tech support, it isn't a first choice resource. That wording is in > > > fact, NOT clear. > > > >Your lack of comprehension is astounding. > > > >Even if the FAQ said "#FreeBSD will help you with any questions and give > >you service with a smile", that would really mean shit. It's IRC. > > > > > Again, a perfectly on topic discussion blown off by none other than: > > > >- Jordan > > > >EFNet is not a resource that FreeBSD (the organization, not the operating > >system) controls, therefore, it's off-topic. > > > You can't separate the two. Besides, JKH is an op there, as are other > "heavy hitters" in the project. Yours, and JKH's attitude towards this > whole thing is deplorable, "IRC will be IRC, so let's ignore it." That's > exactly how to not have a useful conversation. You would have been better > off trying to make valid points rather than selectively read and quote from > both posts to this list and the FAQ. And you would hold slashdot responsible to the Linux community for the posters there? I also think Jordan has a lot more important stuff on his plate than policing a group of misfits whos average age is probably in the teens. I do agree that being a bit nicer would help, or perhaps even a migration allowing the more helpful people in #freebsdhelp to gain control of the channel. Although it wouldn't be as much fun. :) I sort of expected #freebsdhelp to be this empty channel with just a few people in there not being helped, I was suprised to find out that there's a lot of people in there helping each other out, in fact several #freebsd ops are also in #freebsdhelp and behave in a totally different way, there's really not much to complain about. If a user joins and asks questions and is directed to #freebsdhelp and ignores that advice they're only missing out on a good group of helpful users. And can we just end this discussion? thanks, -Alfred (one of those misfits) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 10: 5:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 759B137BC34 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 10:05:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 1001 invoked from network); 3 May 2000 17:05:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (144.16.71.128) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 3 May 2000 17:05:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 674 invoked by uid 211); 3 May 2000 17:05:28 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 22:35:28 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , John Papalia , Jeremiah Gowdy , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000503223528.A654@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20554.957345701@localhost> <4.3.2.20000503114015.00c0abd0@pop.mindspring.com> <20000503221042.A550@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000503221042.A550@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 10:10:43PM +0530 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.32 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Clarification: I wrote: > FWIW: I've never seen this sort of attitude in the linux world. Sure, > there are the flamers on Slashdot and so on, but they are mostly kids > who have no clue and have never actually contributed to linux in the > first place. And even they don't often flame "clueless newbies", only > windows lovers and people like that. The big difference here is that > some of the most obnoxious-sounding people on this thread are listed > as core members, developers and so on. Hearing such opinions from JKH I didn't mean to suggest that these people flame clueless newbies. Merely that they don't seem to think it's important, either from an advocacy point of view or purely as a social nicety, whether newbies tend to be flamed in IRC: "it's none of our business". Whereas the linux community actively makes efforts to encourage good behaviour among linux users, rather than just saying "Slashdot is none of our business" or whatever. Eg http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/mini/Advocacy.html R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 10:12:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9919737BC1F for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 10:12:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e43Hfmp16375; Wed, 3 May 2000 10:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:41:48 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , John Papalia , Jeremiah Gowdy , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000503104148.D13668@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20554.957345701@localhost> <4.3.2.20000503114015.00c0abd0@pop.mindspring.com> <20000503221042.A550@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000503221042.A550@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 10:10:43PM +0530 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Rahul Siddharthan [000503 10:12] wrote: > > I have two religions, FreeBSD, and my work. I must say my faith is being > > tested by all of this. What is causing your myopia? What is so difficult > > to understand that a channel bearing the project's name has an impact on > > public perception of the project? That is, after all, part of advocacy, is > > it not? The type of behavior you're condoning is one of the most > > compelling reasons I will not use Linux or recommend Linux to new users I > > meet (save for Debian, I've found the people on #debian on irc.debian.org > > to be very friendly). > > FWIW: I've never seen this sort of attitude in the linux world. Sure, > there are the flamers on Slashdot and so on, but they are mostly kids > who have no clue and have never actually contributed to linux in the > first place. And even they don't often flame "clueless newbies", only > windows lovers and people like that. The big difference here is that > some of the most obnoxious-sounding people on this thread are listed > as core members, developers and so on. Hearing such opinions from JKH > is like hearing them from Linus Torvalds or Alan Cox, not from some > anonymous troller. The knowledgeable Linux people never try to > alienate the user community in this way. > > Which is exactly why the whole topic *does* belong on advocacy. Much > of the linux users' loyalty to their system is because of the pleasant > experience they get from the "community". Whereas a lurker on this > list reading this thread would come away with a very bad impression. Afaik you'll never see Linux's Alan Cox or Linus on efnet-#linux, they have thier own private server where it's generally understood that it's a tech-kern and chat channel, not some newbie hand-holding resource. I think it's great that jkh is on IRC, I'm pretty sure it's one of things that attracted me to FreeBSD was the casual nature of mingling with "the masses" and occasionally ban-kicking them when they got too uppty. Had #freebsd and the ops been up for handholding I don't think I would have had the need to explore so much on my own which really still is a positive experiance. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 10:41:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B7E737B97D for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 10:41:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12n364-0002p0-00; Wed, 03 May 2000 19:38:04 +0200 Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 19:38:04 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , John Papalia , Jeremiah Gowdy , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000503193804.A10568@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20554.957345701@localhost> <4.3.2.20000503114015.00c0abd0@pop.mindspring.com> <20000503221042.A550@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000503221042.A550@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 10:10:43PM +0530 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed 2000-05-03 (22:10), Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > FWIW: I've never seen this sort of attitude in the linux world. You don't IRC, do you? You aren't on any linux mailing lists, are you? You don't see me complaining on linux lists that the #linux people wouldn't let me on because I IRC from a machine named "ns1.*", do you? You don't see me complaining on linux lists that I used to get kicked off any number of Linux channels for simply _mentioning_ FreeBSD, or that Linux users are occasionally very nasty to me. > Hearing such opinions from JKH is like hearing them from Linus > Torvalds or Alan Cox, not from some anonymous troller. The > knowledgeable Linux people never try to alienate the user community in > this way. I don't know. One ever hears non-technical opinions from the abovementioned? We can't really do anything about it. We can't force EFnet to give us the channel. We can't force the ops to give us the channel. There is no way to rename a channel. IRC wasn't designed for trademark disputes. > Which is exactly why the whole topic *does* belong on advocacy. Much > of the linux users' loyalty to their system is because of the pleasant > experience they get from the "community". Whereas a lurker on this > list reading this thread would come away with a very bad impression. My loyalty to FreeBSD has a lot to do with the community. Well, the community that doesn't bitch about stuff we can't fix. Look, it's a problem, I'll admit that. You see me hanging out on EFnet #FreeBSD trying to help out, and bitching to the ops who kick people without reason. It hasn't changed anything. Can I do any more? Wait a few weeks/months until I get ops, and take over? And when I go away, or ping timeout, then what? And if one of the former ops gets ops, and they take over, and I never get ops back? Look, it's just not like we can do anything besides say to them - "Look, it'll be nice if you didn't act that way on a channel with our operating system as a name, and could you please maybe move elsewhere if you want to behave like that." Ok, now it's done. Now what are _you_ doing about it to the problem element? This reminds me of someone complaining that freebsd.something.com had lots of anti-Linux propoganda. Now, what the hell is FreeBSD supposed to do about it? What _can_ we do about it? Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Hacker In Chief, Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 11:22:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1363637B7D6 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 11:22:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgowdy@home.com) Received: from cx443070a ([24.4.93.90]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <20000503182211.ITKL13130.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@cx443070a>; Wed, 3 May 2000 11:22:11 -0700 Message-ID: <002001bfb52c$79789f80$5a5d0418@vista1.sdca.home.com> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Daniel J. Zaccariello" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "John Papalia" , , , References: <20554.957345701@localhost> <4.3.2.20000503114015.00c0abd0@pop.mindspring.com> <20000503221042.A550@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000503223528.A654@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 11:21:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4132.2100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4132.2100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Whereas the linux community actively makes efforts to encourage > good behaviour among linux users, rather than just saying > "Slashdot is none of our business" or whatever. > Eg http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/mini/Advocacy.html Case in point. Slashdot is NOT IRC. People in #linux acted the same way towards me when I first tried to learn Linux. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 11:43:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D2FC37BD82 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 11:43:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22398; Wed, 3 May 2000 11:45:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , John Papalia , "Jeremiah Gowdy" , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 May 2000 11:52:17 EDT." <4.3.2.20000503114015.00c0abd0@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 11:45:00 -0700 Message-ID: <22395.957379500@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Who is guilty of selective reading now, JKH? Here is the part of the FAQ > you left out: You're not making any sense. I don't see anything in the quoted text which supports your position. > Don't insult me. This isn't about my mastery of the English language > (which is beyond yours, without a doubt). It is about how someone looking I think you're now letting your emotions get in the way of whatever command of logic you may possess. As they say over in USENET: *Plonk*. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 11:56: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22C1737BDA6 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 11:56:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22491; Wed, 3 May 2000 11:57:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , John Papalia , Jeremiah Gowdy , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 May 2000 22:10:43 +0530." <20000503221042.A550@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 11:57:24 -0700 Message-ID: <22488.957380244@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It may be that only the "heavy hitters" in this thread see it for the senseless waste of time that it is, I don't know. I do know that discussing IRC on the freebsd-advocacy list is never going to change the behavior of anyone on IRC or make *ANY* substantive difference so why keep on beating this dead horse? It's dead, Jim! You got your amended FAQ entry but evidently this wasn't enough to keep you and Mr. Zaccariello from harping on about it. You want the channel renamed? Fine, figure out how to force channel renaming on IRC. You want everyone involved on such channels to be kinder, gentler, thousand points of light George Bush fans? Fine, figure out how to engineer the IRC people with neurolinguistic programming techniques or something - perhaps you could write a set of 'bots which spit special mind-altering phrases like "gosh, I feeling helpful" or "Get out and vote for George W Bush!" into the channel every 15 minutes. Knock yourselves out, but for goddsake stop whining about it here in -advocacy and stop trying to widen it into some sort of "Why FreeBSD-core hates newbies" polemic. This isn't about newbies or the project's attitute towards them and it never will be for as long as the topic of discussion involves IRC. If you genuinely want to talk about THAT then let's discuss how to make the freebsd-questions list a better place or how to improve the web pages. Stop trying to drag everyone here into the EFNET brush wars under the pretense of somehow trying to advance the cause of advocacy! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 11:58:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gradwell.com (mail.gradwell.com [194.205.225.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 01D3637BD9D for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 11:58:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from webmaster@onsea.com) Received: (qmail 32654 invoked by uid 527); 3 May 2000 18:50:47 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 19:50:47 +0100 From: Cliff Rowley To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD and IRC Message-ID: <20000503195047.A32007@onsea.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Organisation: Onsea Software Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Right. I have bitten my tongue up until now in the hope that this pathetic thread would have died by now. This is an ADVOCACY mailing list. What do you think people are going to see when they search the ADVOCACY mailing list archives? They certainly wont be enlightened by the various tidbits of information and hints passed between individuals working toward advocating the operating system they love. Here you all are, ranting on about how a particular IRC channel chooses to behave. Is THIS any way to behave? I suggest that the people involved take this topic onto IRC, where it belongs. Posts like these are going to do far more damage than some poxy IRC channel. That's all. Cliff Rowley To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 12: 7:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6B2F37BDA6 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 12:07:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22540; Wed, 3 May 2000 12:08:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , John Papalia , Jeremiah Gowdy , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 May 2000 22:35:28 +0530." <20000503223528.A654@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 12:08:32 -0700 Message-ID: <22537.957380912@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Merely that they don't seem to think it's important, either from > an advocacy point of view or purely as a social nicety, whether > newbies tend to be flamed in IRC: "it's none of our business". You're absolutely right, what goes on in IRC is none of our business. Thank you for encapsulating the argument in a nutshell. It's none of our business because we don't have any control over the medium and anyone who tries to control it quickly becomes enmeshed in an escallating arms race of channel-holding bots and scripts to kick offenders who then retaliate by packet flood attacks and/or coming back under a variety of nicks from a variety of places. Do you HONESTLY think that the FreeBSD project has nothing better to do than play the equivalent of the UN in Mogadishu? That's just crazy. It's also pointless to talk about what "the linux community" is doing since we're not the linux community in either size or operating style and such comparisons are effectively meaningless. If you want to self-appoint yourself as an IRC emergency response team for dealing with these problems, just as various Linux folks have self-appointed themselves, then by all means go ahead - knock yourself out. That's how things work in both communities. If you want to write to Linus Torvalds and demand that he do something about a guy who insulted you in #linuxos then you'll also probably find that this works the same in both communities as well - you'll be dismissed with great contempt for bringing the wrong issue to the wrong person(s) and then you can flame "the Linux folks" for not taking your issues seriously for a change. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 14:26:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 047FD37BE89 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 14:26:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from Pfpawlak.execpc.com (narn-2-95.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.134.223]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.1) id QAA26136; Wed, 3 May 2000 16:25:46 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000503161756.00a70100@mail.execpc.com> X-Sender: fpawlak@mail.execpc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 16:22:01 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Rahul Siddharthan From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <22488.957380244@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan is correct. Will you folks please give this issue a rest. It is far from relevant to advocacy. BTW. Jordan, you are much too intelligent or busy to engage in this. Or at least you should be. Although I do know how much you enjoy a good fight. Regards, Frank At 11:57 AM 5/3/2000 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >It may be that only the "heavy hitters" in this thread see it for the >senseless waste of time that it is, I don't know. I do know that >discussing IRC on the freebsd-advocacy list is never going to change >the behavior of anyone on IRC or make *ANY* substantive difference so >why keep on beating this dead horse? It's dead, Jim! > >You got your amended FAQ entry but evidently this wasn't enough to >keep you and Mr. Zaccariello from harping on about it. You want the >channel renamed? Fine, figure out how to force channel renaming on >IRC. You want everyone involved on such channels to be kinder, >gentler, thousand points of light George Bush fans? Fine, figure out >how to engineer the IRC people with neurolinguistic programming >techniques or something - perhaps you could write a set of 'bots which >spit special mind-altering phrases like "gosh, I feeling helpful" or >"Get out and vote for George W Bush!" into the channel every 15 >minutes. Knock yourselves out, but for goddsake stop whining about it >here in -advocacy and stop trying to widen it into some sort of "Why >FreeBSD-core hates newbies" polemic. > >This isn't about newbies or the project's attitute towards them and it >never will be for as long as the topic of discussion involves IRC. If >you genuinely want to talk about THAT then let's discuss how to make >the freebsd-questions list a better place or how to improve the web >pages. Stop trying to drag everyone here into the EFNET brush wars >under the pretense of somehow trying to advance the cause of advocacy! > >- Jordan > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 16:22:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.jorsm.com (mercury.jorsm.com [207.112.128.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B736237BE06 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 16:22:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jer@jorsm.com) Received: by mercury.jorsm.com (Postfix, from userid 1850) id 3D490E4A0F; Wed, 3 May 2000 18:22:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.jorsm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F1FE0C03; Wed, 3 May 2000 18:22:22 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 18:22:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremy Shaffner To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD and IRC In-Reply-To: <20000503221042.A550@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 3 May 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > FWIW: I've never seen this sort of attitude in the linux world. Sure, Then you haven't looked very hard. It's not about Linux vs FreeBSD, and it's not about communties. People are People. Good and Bad people use computers, and yes, some of them use Linux and FreeBSD. > there are the flamers on Slashdot and so on, but they are mostly kids > who have no clue and have never actually contributed to linux in the > first place. And even they don't often flame "clueless newbies", only > windows lovers and people like that. The big difference here is that > some of the most obnoxious-sounding people on this thread are listed > as core members, developers and so on. Hearing such opinions from JKH > is like hearing them from Linus Torvalds or Alan Cox, not from some > anonymous troller. The knowledgeable Linux people never try to > alienate the user community in this way. > > Which is exactly why the whole topic *does* belong on advocacy. Much > of the linux users' loyalty to their system is because of the pleasant > experience they get from the "community". Whereas a lurker on this > list reading this thread would come away with a very bad impression. I don't use FreeBSD because it makes me feel pretty. It does what it does very well, and a few assholes on IRC doesn't change that for me. Aside from that..I have a respect for the ways of IRC. Channel content and rules are decided by those who operate it, and in turn, by the server operators. "Op Abuse" is hard to prove. If it's normal (for that channel) to kickban people at the slightest provocation, then it's not abuse. Any complaints regarding IRC should be taken up with the channel manager (if it's registered with that network's channel service) or with an IRC Operator, who will behave much the same way...because they can. So it's a little much to expect the Project to police IRC. It's better to ask people to police themselves. And that's what it comes down to. I believe it's up to individual users to be advocates, not so much the project. It's also unfair to hold Jordan or any other prominant Project member responsible for the same reason. That's what he tried to point out. The Project is in no way responsible for IRC. I suggest getting Dan Langille's (FreeBSDDiary, JunkMale on Undernet) presentation from FreeBSDCon '99 titled "Advocacy: How one person can make a difference." (The bad thing about that title is it works both ways.) And Read Jim Mock's March FreeBSDZine Editorial at http://www.freebsdzine.org/200003/advocacy.php3. -Lazarus, Undernet #FreeBSD ps. Everyone's invited to Undernet btw...though I've been called an asshole before..I prefer to think of it as Tough Love. --- Jeremy Shaffner System Administrator JORSM Internet jer@jorsm.com http://www.jorsm.com/~jer/pgp.key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 16:58:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B79BC37BEED for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 16:58:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA03874; Thu, 4 May 2000 00:40:07 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 00:40:07 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Daniel J. Zaccariello" , John Papalia , Jeremiah Gowdy , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Attitudes towards newbies (was Re: FreeBSD and IRC) Message-ID: <20000504004006.A3269@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.3.2.20000503012424.00d214e0@pop.mindspring.com> <20554.957345701@localhost> <20000503155711.A754@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000503155711.A754@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 03:57:11PM +0530 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, May 03, 2000 at 03:57:11PM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Since JKH hath spoken, does that mean this is the official statement > on this subject? No. But this is about to be: + +

IRC

+ +

There is no official FreeBSD support IRC channel. + There are, however, a number of IRC channels that have ``freebsd'' in the + channel name. The FreeBSD Project is not involved with, nor does it + endorse, any of these channels. Do not interpret ``freebsd'' in a + channel name as meaning that the channel has anything to do with + FreeBSD, as anyone can create an IRC channel and call it anything they + want.

Now, would all you IRC weenies please devote your energies to going through the PR database instead? You'll be much more appreciated if you do. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 3 22:16:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 555B137BA92 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 22:16:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 2268 invoked by uid 211); 4 May 2000 05:15:52 -0000 Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 10:45:52 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Advocacy how-to? Message-ID: <20000504104551.A2231@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The point I, at least, was trying to make on the recent IRC thread was that rude behaviour by FreeBSD users (whether on an officially supported medium or not) will turn off potential users and there should be some effort made to control it. That seemed to be the concern of many people. Dissociating oneself from IRC on the web page is fine. But rude behaviour doesn't happen on IRC alone. As many people pointed out, the problem is not unique to FreeBSD. Nobody said it was. But I do think what is unique to FreeBSD is the attitude that "we can't control it so it's not our problem." There's a linux advocacy-howto which I cited earlier, and the section on "canons of conduct" is particularly good reading; this document is frequently cited on slashdot, lwn and elsewhere. http://linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/mini/Advocacy-6.html Sure, not everyone is going to follow it, but at least there is an effort to educate people, and there is a place to point them to when they act inappropriately. The OpenBSD FAQ also has a small bit on how not to advocate: "It's also worth mentioning one of the most important ways you should not try to "help" The OpenBSD project: do not waste your time engaging in operating system flame wars on Usenet newsgroups. It does not help the project to find new users and can cause substantial harm to important relationships that developers have with other developers." http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq1.html Is there any such document for FreeBSD? Does anyone agree that there should be? I certainly think it's important, given the reputation for arrogance which the project had and still has even today. It may even be possible to modify the linux document to FreeBSD's needs, with the author's permission. I'm willing to do this if anyone thinks it's useful. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 4 15: 1:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rock.ghis.net (rock.ghis.net [209.222.164.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E7F37B7E5; Thu, 4 May 2000 15:01:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from argon.blackdawn.com (04-103.dial.008.popsite.net [209.69.197.103]) by rock.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA92428; Thu, 4 May 2000 15:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by argon.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1EB331A1B; Thu, 4 May 2000 18:00:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 18:00:13 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: Nik Clayton Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Daniel J. Zaccariello" , John Papalia , Jeremiah Gowdy , smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Attitudes towards newbies (was Re: FreeBSD and IRC) Message-ID: <20000504180013.B1642@argon.blackdawn.com> References: <4.3.2.20000503012424.00d214e0@pop.mindspring.com> <20554.957345701@localhost> <20000503155711.A754@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000504004006.A3269@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000504004006.A3269@catkin.nothing-going-on.org>; from nik@FreeBSD.ORG on Thu, May 04, 2000 at 12:40:07AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 12:40:07AM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > Now, would all you IRC weenies please devote your energies to going > through the PR database instead? You'll be much more appreciated if you > do. I resent this. In the ports team at least (aside from steve and a few others), it seems the major PR-closers chat on IRC. And we're often there to quickly resolve problems. There's no substitute for instant reply (which you will rarely get with email). -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 4 15:34:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rock.ghis.net (rock.ghis.net [209.222.164.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5383A37B5D5 for ; Thu, 4 May 2000 15:34:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from argon.blackdawn.com (04-103.dial.008.popsite.net [209.69.197.103]) by rock.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA93105; Thu, 4 May 2000 15:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by argon.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AD8C81A03; Wed, 3 May 2000 07:55:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:55:37 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: "Robert A. Bruce" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are you willing to talk to the Press about FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20000503075537.B367@argon.blackdawn.com> References: <200005021646.JAA06206@pike.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200005021646.JAA06206@pike.cdrom.com>; from rab@pike.cdrom.com on Tue, May 02, 2000 at 09:46:41AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 02, 2000 at 09:46:41AM -0700, Robert A. Bruce wrote: > I have several requests from press people to talk to "real > users" of FreeBSD. So if you are a real user, and you are > willing to talk to press people and say positive things > about FreeBSD, please let me know. Does this include users-turned-developers like myself? :-) -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 5 3:37:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F8F737B6BA; Fri, 5 May 2000 03:37:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12nfTX-0001Fy-00; Fri, 05 May 2000 12:36:51 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 12:36:51 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Will Andrews Cc: Nik Clayton , John Papalia , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Attitudes towards newbies (was Re: FreeBSD and IRC) Message-ID: <20000505123651.C4300@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <4.3.2.20000503012424.00d214e0@pop.mindspring.com> <20554.957345701@localhost> <20000503155711.A754@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20000504004006.A3269@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <20000504180013.B1642@argon.blackdawn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000504180013.B1642@argon.blackdawn.com>; from andrews@technologist.com on Thu, May 04, 2000 at 06:00:13PM -0400 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu 2000-05-04 (18:00), Will Andrews wrote: > On Thu, May 04, 2000 at 12:40:07AM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > > Now, would all you IRC weenies please devote your energies to going > > through the PR database instead? You'll be much more appreciated if you > > do. > > I resent this. In the ports team at least (aside from steve and a few > others), it seems the major PR-closers chat on IRC. And we're often there > to quickly resolve problems. There's no substitute for instant reply (which > you will rarely get with email). I think he means: "All you weenies complaining about IRC, and trying to reform it, or causing lots of work by nit-picking wording about it". I doubt he means: "Everyone on IRC is a weenie, and there's no point in hanging out on IRC to help your fellow developers". Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Joker In Chief, Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 5 9:35:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CECA437BB7C for ; Fri, 5 May 2000 09:35:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (ip52.salt-lake-city6.ut.pub-ip.psi.net [38.27.95.52]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA08194; Fri, 5 May 2000 10:33:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3912F7EC.3FE17BF5@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 10:33:48 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Will Andrews Cc: "Robert A. Bruce" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are you willing to talk to the Press about FreeBSD? References: <200005021646.JAA06206@pike.cdrom.com> <20000503075537.B367@argon.blackdawn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Will Andrews wrote: > > On Tue, May 02, 2000 at 09:46:41AM -0700, Robert A. Bruce wrote: > > I have several requests from press people to talk to "real > > users" of FreeBSD. So if you are a real user, and you are > > willing to talk to press people and say positive things > > about FreeBSD, please let me know. > > Does this include users-turned-developers like myself? :-) I can provide at least one operational success story. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 5 11:40:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4331337BBB2 for ; Fri, 5 May 2000 11:40:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (pool0288.cvx8-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.171.33]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00120 for ; Fri, 5 May 2000 11:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <391315EE.38124987@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 11:41:50 -0700 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: [Fwd: DDoS attacks] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------630EB1A3BE27EB408227FFC5" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------630EB1A3BE27EB408227FFC5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just sent this to InfoWorld's Security Watch commentators. I think what I've said would be the jist of an ideal BSDi press release. We should make hay of this as a real plus for BSD!!! Don --------------630EB1A3BE27EB408227FFC5 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <3913151F.D5C80BF5@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 11:38:23 -0700 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: security_watch@infoworld.com Subject: DDoS attacks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a commercial user of FreeBSD, I recently started examining the new 4.0-Release package. I note in the prepackaged ports section that there are 3 new tools (on the CDs!) there for finding and blocking DDoS attack servers and also determining whether your own server has been suborned. Although BSD does not get the mention that your commercial advertiser friends do, I believe it's a great choice for a server OS platform and deserves more press as a viable and higher-performance alternative to either Linux or payware like Solaris. FreeBSD has some of the most active security audit teams around, and Theo deRaadt of OpenBSD is well known as a security hawk. Yahoo's site was not compromised and they were back on the air quickly because of the robustness of FreeBSD and because of these tools. Insiders know that some of the other sites were actually trashed because of DDoS overloads on their server buffers. Certain other OSen are known to die horribly under load instead of slowing to a saturation halt, and this is a fact that should be made known because transaction or data compromise is as bad or worse than unavailbility from a bottom-line point of view. In your column you speak of 'open disclosure' of attack incidents. I submit that there is no better 'full disclosure' than total release of the source code, the vulnerabilities and the bugfix codes that follow. No OS has a better or easier method for maintaining the best level of security possible than FreeBSD with its ongoing audit process, security notification lists, and CVSup source-level upgrade process. Commercial vendors rely on stealth to hide their vulnerabilities, but FreeBSD source code is available for all to see and to attempt to crack. My point is that if there is more to crack, it'd be happening. With proper server discipline, FreeBSD servers are not cracked. The audit teams are sifting through all the contributed ports to assess their vulnerabilities, because the operating system itself has been examined by worldwide experts. Can Microsoft say the same of their OS? Can Sun? Would either stand the same source code scrutiny? I think not. Sincerely, Don Wilde President Silver Lynx Don@Silver-Lynx.com 505-771-0709 --------------630EB1A3BE27EB408227FFC5-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 5 15:17:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A155437B52E for ; Fri, 5 May 2000 15:17:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA06072 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 5 May 2000 18:17:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) From: Michael Lucas Message-Id: <200005052217.SAA06072@blackhelicopters.org> Subject: new article To: advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:17:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Folks, Sys Admin just published my "FreeBSD Firewall Tools & Techniques" article. It's only available on paper, though. Thanks again to everyone who reviewed this! ==ml To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 6 21: 4:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 649E237B6BC; Sat, 6 May 2000 21:04:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA30071; Sat, 6 May 2000 21:04:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 21:04:21 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Good Article about FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000506210421.A30037@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG CNN.com, by way of Computerworld, has a good article about Open Source OSs being used in business. http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/05/05/open.source.smugglers.idg/index.html Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message