From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 14 11:30:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A4C37BE34 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 11:30:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e4EISwH09595; Sun, 14 May 2000 14:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:28:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: James Howard , "Robert A. Bruce" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Magazine ads In-Reply-To: <20000508234314.C4694@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The banner system here at Andover....sure... I can give the name of the person to contact here to get that done. Andover is quite hot on BSD right now... as well as Linux still. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Mon, 8 May 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * James Howard [000508 20:41] wrote: > > On Mon, 8 May 2000, Robert A. Bruce wrote: > > > > > We are thinking of expanding the number of magazines > > > that we advertise FreeBSD in. Right now we are doing > > > SysAdmin, DrDobbs, LinuxJournal, and LinuxMagazine. > > > > > > What other magazines are likely to be read by a lot of > > > prospective FreeBSD users? What tech magazines do you > > > read? > > > > You don't want the magazines we read, you have already hooked us. :) > > > > Try some more mainstream magazines like PCMagazine if it is > > affordable. Scientific American and stuff like that would be cool too. > > That's an excellent idea. I really can't think of any magazines, > but I really can't recall seeing a FreeBSD advert as a banner > anywhere. > > It would probably be a good idea to try to get into the service > that does Slashdot's banners and perhaps some other techie websites > (http://www.userfriendly.org, http://www.sluggy.com, http://www.dilbert.com > (yes I'm a online comic reader)) > > Tom's hardware? > > I'd like to see a cute/crafty animated BSD banner up someplace > soon. > > Maybe I just have bad luck with which banners they choose to show > me? > > -- > -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] > "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 15 17:45:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hydrant.intranova.net (hydrant.intranova.net [209.201.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA8A37B71A for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 17:45:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oogali@intranova.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hydrant.intranova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F128E10BC for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 20:46:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:46:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Omachonu Ogali To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Vulnerability Database (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG SecurityFocus released information regarding vulnerabilities against certain operating systems, FreeBSD had 18 vulnerabilities in the year of 1999. I dropped Elias an e-mail asking if ports were included, and his response is below. But after looking at statistcics for this year (2000), I saw FreeBSD had 6, so far this year, they have been mainly ports advisories, so I assume Elias's answer is a yes. So far so good for FreeBSD and security. :) The page is at: http://www.securityfocus.com/frames/?vdb=vdb&content=/vdb/stats.html -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Omachonu Ogali oogali@intranova.net | | Intranova Networking Group http://tribune.intranova.net | | PGP Key ID: 0xBFE60839 | | PGP Fingerprint: C8 51 14 FD 2A 87 53 D1 E3 AA 12 12 01 93 BD 34 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:27:59 -0700 From: aleph1@securityfocus.com To: Omachonu Ogali Subject: Re: Vulnerability Database * Omachonu Ogali (oogali@intranova.net) [000515 16:20]: > In these statistics, is SecurityFocus counting the base FreeBSD 3.4 system > or the advisories released for the FreeBSD 3.4 ports? We count vulnerabilities associated with FreeBSD 3.4 or packages shipped as part of FreeBSD 3.4. > -- > +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Omachonu Ogali oogali@intranova.net | > | Intranova Networking Group http://tribune.intranova.net | > | PGP Key ID: 0xBFE60839 | > | PGP Fingerprint: C8 51 14 FD 2A 87 53 D1 E3 AA 12 12 01 93 BD 34 | > +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > -- Elias Levy SecurityFocus.com http://www.securityfocus.com/ Si vis pacem, para bellum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 15 20:53:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from karma.wheres.com (wheres.com [208.206.254.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 175F237BA05; Mon, 15 May 2000 20:52:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dws@gonif.com) Received: from localhost (dws@localhost) by karma.wheres.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA03102; Mon, 15 May 2000 23:52:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:52:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dennis S." X-Sender: dws@karma.wheres.com To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: jkh@freebsd.org Subject: kudos on network install Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've been a fan of FreeBSD since a fellow named Eugene Pisman introduced me to it several years ago. I chose it as my OS for many new workstations (overwriting Windows 95/98/2000) needed for work, and when I put my own co-located server up, I chose FreeBSD 2.2.8. One thing I love about FreeBSD is you just pop in the root/boot (or now, mfsroot/kernel) disks, choose network install and the next day I'd have a new UNIX server up, with basic sendmail and so forth already installed, and many other functions just a make install away in the ports directory. In fact, thinking back to the early days of Slackware, I liked FreeBSD a LOT more than Linux. My home machine runs Windows 98, and I just got another Intel machine at home, so instantly I decided to put a free UNIX OS on it. Unfortunately, I felt pressured to put Red Hat on it, because that's what everything is pushing nowadays and because my co-lo'd machine was FreeBSD already this would add some variation. For a long time there was no (anywhere near) easy installation of Linux. I remember well the days of Slackware disks - A1, A2, A3, A4...or the X's! X1, X2, what did it go up to, X24? X44? But now Red Hat has a network install disk, I don't know how long it's been around, not that long. They certainly don't even document it's existence that well. And of course it's an entirely seperate install disk from a "normal" install. If a network install for Red Hat was simple, why buy their CD-ROM's at $100 a pop? Well I put it in, and it didn't recognize my crappy NE2000 ethernet card, something even Windows 95 did. I have a small, cheap network at home, two machines, a small hub, and a 56K modem, so even this install was going to be a pain, I'd probably have to ftp the Red Hat distribution to my Windows 98, install an FTP server on it and ethernet it off that. But Red Hat would just not recognize my ethernet card. After some frustration, I decided to give FreeBSD a try. Well once again, FreeBSD's easy, especially network, install came to the rescue. I noticed I could install over a modem in the install! There's no way this will work I thought, but I'll give it a try. Well, lo and behold, after several tries the system started downloading as normal, albeit at my 5 Kilobytes/sec. I dozed off, woke up this morning, saw my modem connection hung up, turned the monitor on, it looked good, rebooted, and my system was fully installed. I'm amazed. Kudos to the people who worked so hard on the install programs, the ppp programs, all the related programs and on all of FreeBSD. I did a make install in the ports directory of bash, less, ssh and some of my other favorite programs and am now ssh'ing into my machines on the net and doing my business. Tonight I'm going to push my luck and install an X-Windows interface. Thanks, Dennis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 15 21:37:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from genesis.setjmp.net (genesis.setjmp.net [208.13.245.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5502837B662 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 21:37:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Received: from Ra (ra.cfpower.com [10.0.0.194]) by genesis.setjmp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA15810 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 00:38:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from eric@cfpower.com) Message-ID: <000801bfbef0$dfb9fdc0$6a0ffea9@cfpower.com> From: "Eric A. Griff" To: References: Subject: Re: kudos on network install Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:40:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Dennis, Well here's my story. After quite a while offline, I got a packard bell BL210 60Mhz Pentium, with 8M ram, and Win3.1 for workgroups, and quickly a prodigy account (as soon as cash permitted).. Had a few bad years, and it bumped me from computers let alone The internet (IE circa 1995 at this point).. Originally at that point I wanted to setup a localhost webserver.. I tried one which was a port of NCSA for 3.1, and it kept ticking me off. Even if the webserver was local, it insisted on dialing up an ISP, and even tryed routing localhost thru them, lOL... Well, with some searching, I first found Linux (who knows what dist, or whatever it was).. Though they probably had the best marketing look then even,. hehe.. Well after some extensive digging, I saw mention that the files could be downloaded from the internet, but, no followup on that... Somewhere I found a link to www.freebsd.org, and at this point I was so frustrated, that I went directly to the FTP, and found a readme.. The readme covered a lot. Including how to download the tarballs, and where to put them on floppies to install, and fips to make space, hehe.. It was 2.1.5 Release.. And old SysV thoughts came back to me... Well, it took about 8 hours to download all the floppies on my 14.4k modem, that was actually only doing 9600 (nobody supports 14.4, hehe).. The next day I ran fips, and got the install to work after 2-3 trys.. Well, I dropped Prodigy for a regular ISP quick, since they only supported Windows, and well, the years go on, and new solutions are made, and crap happens, etc, and well.. The crap was NT, LOL. I still used that P60 even as a email server, and some routing/firewall stuff... I've been thru this extensively for over 4 years now, and well, I still see no reason to change to other OSs, and with some remote experience w/linux, still see that the install capabilities of FreeBSD isn't aren't in linux (redhat or otherwise). Nor the stability. And over the last couple of years, I've got called in emergency "unown" situations, and guess what? Never a FreeBSD.. Always Redhat. hehe. Most of these are now FreeBSD, without situation since then.. One has about 150 days uptime now. I need to update that a bit =( Though it would seriously benefit from 3.4-STABLE at this time, though I will need to rewrite a driver a slight bit (Sangoma Wanpipe) before I do that.. It's a router/V.35 connection to the internet for a Decent sized ecommerce company... They have never had complaints.. It's also there proxy, and email server. And actually handles 2 intranets (server, and workstation).. It kicks but. Too bad I need to totally update it.. It would be nice to have it hit 365 DAYS.. The old Pentium 60 is now up to 104M ram, and does things real well. Though it's about to be replaced w/a 400Mhz Pentium II, and 256M ram.. Hehe on the NE2000. Yah, they can be painful though even on Win95, LOL. As long as JKH, POUL, DAVID, etc... Keep kicking, I'll keep ranting =) Those guys made my piece of mind only shattered by Microsoft's OS's, and linux, hehe. And were tryin to convert those along the way, hehe. Peace Eric A. Griff setjmp 181 Genesee Street Suite 504 Utica, NY 13501 (315) 734-1668x205 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis S." To: Cc: Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 11:52 PM Subject: kudos on network install > > I've been a fan of FreeBSD since a fellow named Eugene Pisman introduced > me to it several years ago. I chose it as my OS for many new workstations > (overwriting Windows 95/98/2000) needed for work, and when I put my own > co-located server up, I chose FreeBSD 2.2.8. One thing I love about > FreeBSD is you just pop in the root/boot (or now, mfsroot/kernel) disks, > choose network install and the next day I'd have a new UNIX server up, > with basic sendmail and so forth already installed, and many other > functions just a make install away in the ports directory. In fact, > thinking back to the early days of Slackware, I liked FreeBSD a LOT more > than Linux. > > My home machine runs Windows 98, and I just got another Intel machine at > home, so instantly I decided to put a free UNIX OS on it. Unfortunately, > I felt pressured to put Red Hat on it, because that's what everything is > pushing nowadays and because my co-lo'd machine was FreeBSD already this > would add some variation. > > For a long time there was no (anywhere near) easy installation of Linux. > I remember well the days of Slackware disks - A1, A2, A3, A4...or the X's! > X1, X2, what did it go up to, X24? X44? But now Red Hat has a network > install disk, I don't know how long it's been around, not that long. They > certainly don't even document it's existence that well. And of course > it's an entirely seperate install disk from a "normal" install. If a > network install for Red Hat was simple, why buy their CD-ROM's at $100 a > pop? > > Well I put it in, and it didn't recognize my crappy NE2000 ethernet card, > something even Windows 95 did. I have a small, cheap network at home, two > machines, a small hub, and a 56K modem, so even this install was going to > be a pain, I'd probably have to ftp the Red Hat distribution to my Windows > 98, install an FTP server on it and ethernet it off that. But Red Hat > would just not recognize my ethernet card. After some frustration, I > decided to give FreeBSD a try. > > Well once again, FreeBSD's easy, especially network, install came to the > rescue. I noticed I could install over a modem in the install! There's > no way this will work I thought, but I'll give it a try. > > Well, lo and behold, after several tries the system started downloading as > normal, albeit at my 5 Kilobytes/sec. I dozed off, woke up this morning, > saw my modem connection hung up, turned the monitor on, it looked good, > rebooted, and my system was fully installed. I'm amazed. > > Kudos to the people who worked so hard on the install programs, the ppp > programs, all the related programs and on all of FreeBSD. I did a make > install in the ports directory of bash, less, ssh and some of my other > favorite programs and am now ssh'ing into my machines on the net and doing > my business. Tonight I'm going to push my luck and install an X-Windows > interface. > > Thanks, > Dennis > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 17 0: 9:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144EE37B789; Wed, 17 May 2000 00:09:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id QAA24577; Wed, 17 May 2000 16:39:42 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:39:42 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon Message-ID: <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, 16 May 2000 at 21:24:40 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > This one's worth a read, Indeed, I think it's one of the best I've seen in a while. > though it's somewhat depressing in that it takes the stance that the > BSDs have irrevocably "lost" to Linux. I didn't see anything irrevocable there. > See > http://www.salon.com/tech/fsp/2000/05/16/chapter_2_part_one/index.html Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 17 0:36: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1387B37BBDA; Wed, 17 May 2000 00:36:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA12322; Wed, 17 May 2000 01:35:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 01:38:01 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon References: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Tuesday, 16 May 2000 at 21:24:40 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > This one's worth a read, > > Indeed, I think it's one of the best I've seen in a while. > > > though it's somewhat depressing in that it takes the stance that the > > BSDs have irrevocably "lost" to Linux. > > I didn't see anything irrevocable there. In fact, there seems to be much discussion on whether Linux isbetter in any way, or even usable for that matter. > > See > > http://www.salon.com/tech/fsp/2000/05/16/chapter_2_part_one/index.html Good reading. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 17 11:10:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1180F37BBC7; Wed, 17 May 2000 11:10:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17066; Wed, 17 May 2000 12:09:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:09:36 -0600 To: Wes Peters , Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list In-Reply-To: <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:38 AM 5/17/2000, Wes Peters wrote: >Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, 16 May 2000 at 21:24:40 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > > This one's worth a read, > > > > Indeed, I think it's one of the best I've seen in a while. > > > > > though it's somewhat depressing in that it takes the stance that the > > > BSDs have irrevocably "lost" to Linux. > > > > I didn't see anything irrevocable there. > >In fact, there seems to be much discussion on whether Linux is better in >any way, or even usable for that matter. Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not evangelize, promote, or market. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 17 13:39:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BF29E37B511 for ; Wed, 17 May 2000 13:39:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 84343 invoked from network); 17 May 2000 20:39:01 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 17 May 2000 20:39:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 16544 invoked by uid 211); 17 May 2000 20:38:59 -0000 Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 02:08:59 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon Message-ID: <20000518020859.B16497@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Wes Peters , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list References: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, May 17, 2000 at 12:09:36PM -0600 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >In fact, there seems to be much discussion on whether Linux is better in > >any way, or even usable for that matter. > > Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has > a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who > could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not > evangelize, promote, or market. Which may even be true. But he is in no way unfair to the BSD's, and he is widely read among linux people and I think this is an excellent "awareness" article for that audience. If more people get interested, more people start using it. I don't see what you're complaining about. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 17 15:54:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D645037BBD6; Wed, 17 May 2000 15:54:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id IAA30823; Thu, 18 May 2000 08:25:00 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 08:25:00 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon Message-ID: <20000518082500.E30627@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> <20000518020859.B16497@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday, 17 May 2000 at 12:09:36 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:38 AM 5/17/2000, Wes Peters wrote: > >> Greg Lehey wrote: >>> >>> On Tuesday, 16 May 2000 at 21:24:40 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >>>> This one's worth a read, >>> >>> Indeed, I think it's one of the best I've seen in a while. >>> >>>> though it's somewhat depressing in that it takes the stance that the >>>> BSDs have irrevocably "lost" to Linux. >>> >>> I didn't see anything irrevocable there. >> >> In fact, there seems to be much discussion on whether Linux is better in >> any way, or even usable for that matter. > > Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has > a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who > could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not > evangelize, promote, or market. Ah. I only read the 5 chapters directly linked together, and I saw no pro-Linux bias there. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 17 17:28:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D56337BA83; Wed, 17 May 2000 17:28:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21398; Wed, 17 May 2000 18:28:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000517182639.00bd1be0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:28:26 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon In-Reply-To: <20000518082500.E30627@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> <20000518020859.B16497@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:55 PM 5/17/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: >> Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has > > a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who > > could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not > > evangelize, promote, or market. > >Ah. I only read the 5 chapters directly linked together, and I saw no >pro-Linux bias there. There is a very strong pro-Linux bias in his writings. He states in some places, and implies in others, that the BSDs are doomed to relative obscurity compared to Linux. What's more, he believes Stallman's propaganda instead of looking beyond it and recognizing RMS's true intentions. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 17 18: 1:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA8937BAAC; Wed, 17 May 2000 18:01:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA31819; Thu, 18 May 2000 10:31:30 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:31:30 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon Message-ID: <20000518103130.D31123@freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> <20000518020859.B16497@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> <20000518082500.E30627@freebie.lemis.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517182639.00bd1be0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000517182639.00bd1be0@localhost> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday, 17 May 2000 at 18:28:26 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:55 PM 5/17/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has >>> a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who >>> could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not >>> evangelize, promote, or market. >> >> Ah. I only read the 5 chapters directly linked together, and I saw no >> pro-Linux bias there. > > There is a very strong pro-Linux bias in his writings. He states in some > places, and implies in others, that the BSDs are doomed to relative > obscurity compared to Linux. What's more, he believes Stallman's > propaganda instead of looking beyond it and recognizing RMS's true > intentions. What can I say? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 17 22:38:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24D1C37BAB5; Wed, 17 May 2000 22:38:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14937; Wed, 17 May 2000 23:36:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <392381F4.B39DE5CB@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:39:00 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon References: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> <20000518020859.B16497@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > >In fact, there seems to be much discussion on whether Linux is better in > > >any way, or even usable for that matter. > > > > Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has > > a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who > > could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not > > evangelize, promote, or market. > > Which may even be true. But he is in no way unfair to the BSD's, and > he is widely read among linux people and I think this is an excellent > "awareness" article for that audience. If more people get interested, > more people start using it. I don't see what you're complaining about. Uh, yeah. I'd say that pretty much sums it up. The Linuxers seem to think of that as an advantage, where we think of it as being pure marketing bull- shit, the same thing they accuse Microsoft of. It's a funny philosophy; you suck if you're better at something than us (code for BSD, marketing for Microsoft) and yet conversely you suck if you're worse at something than us (code for Microsoft, marketing for BSD). I guess the philosophy is just that you suck if you're not Linux, and reasons and justifications don't matter. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 18 2: 6: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 526E237B77A for ; Thu, 18 May 2000 02:05:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 91158 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 09:05:39 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 18 May 2000 09:05:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 5312 invoked by uid 211); 18 May 2000 09:05:37 -0000 Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:35:36 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Wes Peters Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon Message-ID: <20000518143536.A5288@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Wes Peters , Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list References: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> <20000518020859.B16497@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <392381F4.B39DE5CB@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <392381F4.B39DE5CB@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Wed, May 17, 2000 at 11:39:00PM -0600 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters said on May 17, 2000 at 23:39:00: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > > >In fact, there seems to be much discussion on whether Linux is better in > > > >any way, or even usable for that matter. > > > > > > Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has > > > a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who > > > could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not > > > evangelize, promote, or market. > > > > Which may even be true. But he is in no way unfair to the BSD's, and > > he is widely read among linux people and I think this is an excellent > > "awareness" article for that audience. If more people get interested, > > more people start using it. I don't see what you're complaining about. > > Uh, yeah. I'd say that pretty much sums it up. The Linuxers seem to think > of that as an advantage, where we think of it as being pure marketing bull- > shit, the same thing they accuse Microsoft of. It's a funny philosophy; > you suck if you're better at something than us (code for BSD, marketing > for Microsoft) and yet conversely you suck if you're worse at something > than us (code for Microsoft, marketing for BSD). I guess the philosophy > is just that you suck if you're not Linux, and reasons and justifications > don't matter. Well, I don't think that article justifies that sort of outburst (it nowhere says or implies that BSD sucks, quite the contrary in fact) and I see a lot of BSD coverage on the linux websites these days, nearly all of it positive. Besides your best chance of converting linux users is to say "here's another free OS, with various similarities and differences from linux, and it has these cool features, so you may want to try it out" -- which is pretty much what Leonard's article does. You can't convert anyone by saying "ooh, linux is so crummy, how can Mr Leonard even think of saying something nice about it, he's obviously heavily biased and a Stallman stooge..." R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 18 8:39:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 117AC37BC24; Thu, 18 May 2000 08:39:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA16075; Thu, 18 May 2000 09:35:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39240E3C.2BB55534@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:37:32 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon References: <4.3.1.2.20000516212344.0461bab0@localhost> <20000517163941.J22008@freebie.lemis.com> <39224C59.AE4BD2F1@softweyr.com> <4.3.1.2.20000517120734.045f0770@localhost> <20000518020859.B16497@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <392381F4.B39DE5CB@softweyr.com> <20000518143536.A5288@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Wes Peters said on May 17, 2000 at 23:39:00: > > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > > > > >In fact, there seems to be much discussion on whether Linux is better in > > > > >any way, or even usable for that matter. > > > > > > > > Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has > > > > a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who > > > > could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not > > > > evangelize, promote, or market. > > > > > > Which may even be true. But he is in no way unfair to the BSD's, and > > > he is widely read among linux people and I think this is an excellent > > > "awareness" article for that audience. If more people get interested, > > > more people start using it. I don't see what you're complaining about. > > > > Uh, yeah. I'd say that pretty much sums it up. The Linuxers seem to think > > of that as an advantage, where we think of it as being pure marketing bull- > > shit, the same thing they accuse Microsoft of. It's a funny philosophy; > > you suck if you're better at something than us (code for BSD, marketing > > for Microsoft) and yet conversely you suck if you're worse at something > > than us (code for Microsoft, marketing for BSD). I guess the philosophy > > is just that you suck if you're not Linux, and reasons and justifications > > don't matter. > > Well, I don't think that article justifies that sort of outburst (it > nowhere says or implies that BSD sucks, quite the contrary in fact) > and I see a lot of BSD coverage on the linux websites these days, > nearly all of it positive. No, the article was much better written than that. I'm speaking more of the average drooling Slashdot anonymous loser. > Besides your best chance of converting > linux users is to say "here's another free OS, with various > similarities and differences from linux, and it has these cool > features, so you may want to try it out" -- which is pretty much what > Leonard's article does. You can't convert anyone by saying "ooh, > linux is so crummy, how can Mr Leonard even think of saying something > nice about it, he's obviously heavily biased and a Stallman stooge..." I found the chapter on Salon delightful, and plan to buy the book when it is published. It might do more than anything so far to increase the (small) flood of Linux users moving to BSD. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 18 13:37: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp09.phx.gblx.net (smtp09.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2068537B92E; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:36:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp09.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA64614; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:36:46 -0700 Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp09.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdPhySqa; Thu May 18 13:36:41 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA21308; Thu, 18 May 2000 13:36:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200005182036.NAA21308@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Book chapter on BSD published in Salon To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:36:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters), grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD advocacy list) In-Reply-To: <20000518020859.B16497@physics.iisc.ernet.in> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at May 18, 2000 02:08:59 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Actually, some of the other chapters get into that more. The author has > > a strong pro-Linux bias, and characterizes the BSDers as academics who > > could develop software and coordinate their own projects but could not > > evangelize, promote, or market. > > Which may even be true. But he is in no way unfair to the BSD's, and > he is widely read among linux people and I think this is an excellent > "awareness" article for that audience. If more people get interested, > more people start using it. I don't see what you're complaining about. His history is not 100% correct, and it's going to potentially hurt BSD in the long run to have lots of people believing it because it's now "common knowledge". The Linus commentary is really unfair to Linus (c.v. the discussion about source code control, also in this thread). Unfortunately, correcting this could be even more injurious to BSD, so I'm going to let sleeping dogs lie... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message