From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 11 14:10:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from beast.daemontech.com (beast.daemontech.com [208.138.46.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EE42B37B440 for ; Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 43096 invoked by uid 200); 11 Sep 2000 21:10:29 -0000 Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (208.138.46.10) by beast.daemontech.com with SMTP; 11 Sep 2000 21:10:29 -0000 Content-Length: 1035 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Daemon Technologies From: Nicole To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: BAFUG / BABUG Meeting This Thursday In FosterCity Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Our next meeting will be held: at IBM/Whistle on Thursday, Sept 14th. at 7:30pm. Our Topic: Installing FreeBSD By Nicole Harrington & FreeBSD NetBoot Install by Alfred Perlstein. This will be a walk thru demonstration on a live machine overviewing the install choices, file system layouts for different types of machines, swap size needs, code base and package installs choices and reasoning. ( I will also present my list of Nicole'isms or how "I" like machines setup and solcit alternatives. ) Alfred will be performing a walk thru demonstration of his new NetBoot install program that makes installing FreeBSD almost too easy. This should be a great time for someone new to FreeBSD to attend, and for those old hats to come and share your views. Express your reasons for how you perform your installs and more! An FTP mirror will be available for those who wish to bring a machine along if you are having trouble. Please see our website for more information: http://www.babug.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Sep 11 14:36:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9D2737B424; Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e8BLamQ01830; Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:36:48 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Nicole Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BAFUG / BABUG Meeting This Thursday In FosterCity Message-ID: <20000911143647.V12231@fw.wintelcom.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from nicole@babug.org on Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 02:10:29PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Nicole [000911 14:10] wrote: > > Our next meeting will be held: > at IBM/Whistle on Thursday, Sept 14th. at 7:30pm. > > Our Topic: > Installing FreeBSD By Nicole Harrington & FreeBSD NetBoot Install by Alfred > Perlstein. > > This will be a walk thru demonstration on a live machine overviewing the > install choices, file system layouts for different types of machines, swap size > needs, code base and package installs choices and reasoning. ( I will also > present my list of Nicole'isms or how "I" like machines setup and solcit > alternatives. ) > > Alfred will be performing a walk thru demonstration of his > new NetBoot install program that makes installing FreeBSD almost too easy. > > This should be a great time for someone new to FreeBSD to > attend, and for those old hats to come and share your views. Express your > reasons for how you perform your installs and more! > > An FTP mirror will be available for those who wish to bring a machine along if > you are having trouble. I would also like to discuss the recent my and Bosko Milekic's recent start on making the network stack MPsafe, so any smp gurus showing up would be most appreciated. I'd also like to thank Mike Smith in advance for his recent work on the PXE->NFS_ROOT stuff, if I have time I'll try to adapt my tutorial to use it. I'd also like to point out that although I've done PXE setups for two companies now, the majority of the actual code was done by Paul Saab, Peter Wemm at Yahoo! and Johnathan Baldwin at BSDi. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 12 12:59:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wally.eecs.harvard.edu (wally.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A61437B422; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 12:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (stein@localhost) by wally.eecs.harvard.edu (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e8CJxCm16550; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:59:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:59:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Stein X-Sender: stein@wally To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: looking for roommate for BSDCon 2000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, I will be attending BSDCon 2000 and am looking for someone to share a room at the Hyatt with. I am a 27-year old male grad student. My estimated stay period is 10/16 - 10/20. If you are also looking for a roommate please get in touch. -Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 12 17:20: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83D4937B424 for ; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA83078; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:20:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 32767) id 93F3137B42C; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <20000913001649.93F3137B42C@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:16:49 -0700 (PDT) From: stan@craigslist.org To: freebsd-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org X-Send-Pr-Version: www-1.0 Subject: advocacy/21238: poor performance; missed opportunities Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Number: 21238 >Category: advocacy >Synopsis: poor performance; missed opportunities >Confidential: no >Severity: critical >Priority: high >Responsible: freebsd-advocacy >State: open >Quarter: >Keywords: >Date-Required: >Class: sw-bug >Submitter-Id: current-users >Arrival-Date: Tue Sep 12 17:20:01 PDT 2000 >Closed-Date: >Last-Modified: >Originator: Stan Osborne >Release: 4.0 >Organization: Craigslist >Environment: no longer available >Description: After an outside consultant advocated we "upgrade" from Linux to FreeBSD our sysadmin staff invested much time and effort into evaluating FreeBSD. A new production server was built using FreeBSD 4.0 and comparted with Linux, all on the same hardware. The result was a comparison of the two OSs on the same hardware running the exact same application tests. This type of testing is as fair as it gets. The reasons for staying with Linux follow. o) Linux (2.2.16 kernel) benchmarked far better in terms of our search code (3x faster on the same box), and slightly better for Apache performance. o) The final straw was that the GDBM libraries for FreeBSD were very slow. If performance of these two important tests was close to the same, we would have switched to FreeBSD. Instead, for now the idea of switching to FreeBSD has been dropped and not likley to be re-examined anytime soon. Until fairly unsophisticated applications perform as well on FreeBSD, these rare opportunities to convert a predominately Linux shop to FreeBSD are a waste of time. >How-To-Repeat: Properly benchmark GDBM and Apache based applications using the same hardware. Compare results between FreeBSD and Linux. >Fix: Regretably the fix is to use Linux. >Release-Note: >Audit-Trail: >Unformatted: To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 12 18:19:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD30137B43C; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from billf@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA91063; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:19:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@FreeBSD.org) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:19:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Message-Id: <200009130119.SAA91063@freefall.freebsd.org> To: stan@craigslist.org, billf@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: advocacy/21238: poor performance; missed opportunities Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Synopsis: poor performance; missed opportunities State-Changed-From-To: open->closed State-Changed-By: billf State-Changed-When: Tue Sep 12 18:18:48 PDT 2000 State-Changed-Why: User fails to provide benchmarks, specifics, details, or anything that would prove that he is not either clueless or a troll. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=21238 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 12 19:34:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from craigslist.net (www.craigslist.org [216.38.134.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 299DC37B424 for ; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10007 invoked by uid 1010); 13 Sep 2000 02:34:34 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 13 Sep 2000 02:34:34 -0000 Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:34:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Stan Osborne X-Sender: stan@cnewmark.craigslist.net To: billf@FreeBSD.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: advocacy/21238: poor performance; missed opportunities In-Reply-To: <200009130119.SAA91063@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ok take it that way. Go ahead and close the PR without ever consulting the person who submitted it in the first place. Your tone/attitude may explain why FreeBSD is not keeping up with the Linux hord. Me, I'm trying to let the FreeBSD developer community know what is happening in the real world. I'm the internal advocate for FreeBSD and one of the reasons we went to the effort to evealuate FreeBSD. I am very dissapointed that after trying to justify switching to FreeBSD we could not. I can't provide our application software, but I will see if we can come up with in terms of our ad hoc GDBM tests. Most of what we do is serve HTML from Apache. Check out our web site http://www.craigslist.org/ to see what were were running for the tests. Our analysis was that simple HTML from Apache was nearly the same on FreeBSD. Our homemade search uses DBM/GDBM. We were using whatever came with 4.0. Since it did not work well much effort was made researching the support sites, searching the web, etc. We tried everything we could find to make this work better, but were not sucessfull. This effort included hiring a consultant with much FreeBSD experience. And collectively we could not get GDBM tests to perform as well as they did on Linux. As for your claim that I did not provide specifices, do you need more information than my statement that we used FreeBSD 4.0? Stan On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 billf@FreeBSD.org wrote: > Synopsis: poor performance; missed opportunities > > State-Changed-From-To: open->closed > State-Changed-By: billf > State-Changed-When: Tue Sep 12 18:18:48 PDT 2000 > State-Changed-Why: > User fails to provide benchmarks, specifics, details, or > anything that would prove that he is not either clueless or a troll. > > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=21238 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 12 19:52:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91FA237B424; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from confusion.net (user-2ivebd3.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.45.163]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA07753; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:52:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <39BEEBED.84311DC7@confusion.net> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:52:29 -0400 From: Laurence Berland X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stan Osborne Cc: billf@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy/21238: poor performance; missed opportunities References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stan Osborne wrote: > > > > As for your claim that I did not provide specifices, do you need > more information than my statement that we used FreeBSD 4.0? > Yes, the developers need more than that. You cannot simply say "freebsd version x is slow, please make it faster." To many people freebsd is as fast or faster, so to figure out why your setup is slow is impossible just by knowing you are using freebsd 4.0. I understand you cannot divulge your application, but if you could disclose some sort of statistics on the sort of system calls it makes, how it stores data, and the frequency of said calls in an expected run, it would probably help many people. Also, the output of uname -a couldn't hurt; your kernel config would be downright useful to some. Please remember this is a volunteer effort and you cant expect people to try ten billion combinations until they happen to hit yours. While I understand all these sort of details might not be the sort of thing you'd like to post in a PR, you should phrase the post in a less flame-oriented manner, and possibly offer this information to anyone who is willing to work on the issue. There are plenty of trolls and zealots who will file PRs in hostile tones with no content. If you don't want to be labeled as one by a group of people with lots of work and little time, you might want to try and be more positive and helpful in your emails, reports, etc. I'm about to start my first year of college, and one of my goals is to start going through and writing patches that will (hopefully) close PRs. If I have to wander through post after post of useless flameage, I just might get discouraged. I'm not saying you're a troll, I'm just saying you need to act a little more professional, and maybe a bit more friendly. And if you are just another troll, stop wasting everyone's time. Laurence Berland Intern, Flooz.com Northwestern '04 stuyman@confusion.net > Stan > > On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 billf@FreeBSD.org wrote: > > > Synopsis: poor performance; missed opportunities > > > > State-Changed-From-To: open->closed > > State-Changed-By: billf > > State-Changed-When: Tue Sep 12 18:18:48 PDT 2000 > > State-Changed-Why: > > User fails to provide benchmarks, specifics, details, or > > anything that would prove that he is not either clueless or a troll. > > > > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=21238 > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 12 20: 8:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from craigslist.net (www.craigslist.org [216.38.134.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B912C37B43E for ; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 20:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 23227 invoked by uid 1010); 13 Sep 2000 03:08:09 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 13 Sep 2000 03:08:09 -0000 Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 20:08:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Stan Osborne X-Sender: stan@cnewmark.craigslist.net To: Laurence Berland Cc: billf@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy/21238: poor performance; missed opportunities In-Reply-To: <39BEEBED.84311DC7@confusion.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Laurence, Thanks. I posted the problem to advocacy because it still is not clear to me if there is a bug or a user problem. The very first response I got was the pr was "closed". There was not attempt at an interaction to see how deep I could get into describing/documenting the problem. The exact installation and server are now running a Linux build that is about to go into production. I'm not sure what has happened to the FreeBSD installation and the test programs, but I will look into it. Stan On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Laurence Berland wrote: > > > Stan Osborne wrote: > > > > > > > > As for your claim that I did not provide specifices, do you need > > more information than my statement that we used FreeBSD 4.0? > > > > Yes, the developers need more than that. You cannot simply say "freebsd > version x is slow, please make it faster." To many people freebsd is as > fast or faster, so to figure out why your setup is slow is impossible > just by knowing you are using freebsd 4.0. > > I understand you cannot divulge your application, but if you could > disclose some sort of statistics on the sort of system calls it makes, > how it stores data, and the frequency of said calls in an expected run, > it would probably help many people. Also, the output of uname -a > couldn't hurt; your kernel config would be downright useful to some. > Please remember this is a volunteer effort and you cant expect people to > try ten billion combinations until they happen to hit yours. > > While I understand all these sort of details might not be the sort of > thing you'd like to post in a PR, you should phrase the post in a less > flame-oriented manner, and possibly offer this > information to anyone who is willing to work on the issue. > > There are plenty of trolls and zealots who will file PRs in hostile > tones with no content. If you don't want to be labeled as one by a > group of people with lots of work and little time, you might want to try > and be more positive and helpful in your emails, reports, etc. I'm > about to start my first year of college, and one of my goals is to start > going through and writing patches that will (hopefully) close PRs. If I > have to wander through post after post of useless flameage, I just might > get discouraged. I'm not saying you're a troll, I'm just saying you > need to act a little more professional, and maybe a bit more friendly. > And if you are just another troll, stop wasting everyone's time. > > Laurence Berland > Intern, Flooz.com > Northwestern '04 > stuyman@confusion.net > > > Stan > > > > On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 billf@FreeBSD.org wrote: > > > > > Synopsis: poor performance; missed opportunities > > > > > > State-Changed-From-To: open->closed > > > State-Changed-By: billf > > > State-Changed-When: Tue Sep 12 18:18:48 PDT 2000 > > > State-Changed-Why: > > > User fails to provide benchmarks, specifics, details, or > > > anything that would prove that he is not either clueless or a troll. > > > > > > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=21238 > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 12 21:18:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD7237B423; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA113046; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:18:43 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:20:59 -0400 To: Stan Osborne , billf@FreeBSD.ORG From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: advocacy/21238: poor performance; missed opportunities Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 7:34 PM -0700 9/12/00, Stan Osborne wrote: >Your tone/attitude may explain why FreeBSD is not keeping up with >the Linux hord. Me, I'm trying to let the FreeBSD developer >community know what is happening in the real world. I'm the >internal advocate for FreeBSD and one of the reasons we went to >the effort to evealuate FreeBSD. I am very dissapointed that >after trying to justify switching to FreeBSD we could not. The text in your initial PR was such that it was very easy to assume it was a troll. Very very easy. >As for your claim that I did not provide specifices, do you need >more information than my statement that we used FreeBSD 4.0? I will believe that you are a sincere advocate of freebsd in your environment, and that your wording was merely a result of genuine disappointment. That said, you really did give close to zero useful information for anyone who might look into why your results were so poor. You said that your search code was three times faster under linux. Okay, so what can anyone do about that? Nothing. Why? Because we don't have a clue what your special search code does. Maybe some autoconfigure script in YOUR (unnamed) package just picked a bad choice for running under freebsd, and IF we knew what was going on, someone could fix that choice and get "your search code" (which is never identified) to run much faster. What hardware are you running? Maybe it's a bad driver for some particular piece of hardware. Now it would be nice if freebsd beat linux on every kind of hardware, but realistically that just ain't going to happen any time soon (not for EVERY kind of hardware). It might be that by spending $40 for a alternate PCI card, freebsd would have done much much better, and compare favorably to linux on the same hardware (ie, linux would also have the same alternate card). But, well, we can't possibly consider that, because you didn't mention a single thing about your hardware. Perhaps it is a problem with SMP ... but you don't say if you have a multi-processor box. If it IS a multi-processor box, then there have been a lot of developments since 4.0 which would make a big difference. Especially in the 5.0-current branch, where there has been a MASSIVE amount of SMP-related work in the past few months. Perhaps someone is ALREADY addressing the very problem you ran into, but you don't say anything that might give us that clue. You then said that the gdbm libraries were very slow. How slow? You don't say. Slow at doing WHAT? You don't say. Reading? Writing? You don't say. How big a database were they slow with? You don't say. One big database, or many small databases open at the same time? You don't say. Maybe you just made a poor choice in the kernel you built for freebsd. Did you include softupdates? Now maybe you are very expert, and are insulted that I would even ask such a dumb question. However, I don't know you from any of the other 50,000 people who post here, and IN YOUR PR you do not give any useful configuration information. If you are using 4.0, then maybe you didn't add in softupdates, and maybe adding that in would have made a big difference. Unfortunately, we do not know, because you did not say anything. There are people using freebsd who are very interested in real world benchmarks, because their livelyhood depends on fast and reliable results from their OS. These people, in fact, are some of the main driving forces behind freebsd development. However, any analysis requires information. I haven't even scratched the surface of issues which MIGHT have effected you, and MIGHT have been easily addressed once they were known. Were we all supposed to engage in a game of 20,000 questions, just because you were disappointed? I am quite willing to believe that you honestly would have liked freebsd to have compared better to linux in your testing, but the fact still is that you did not provide much useful information. You did not even offer to provide information if anyone were to contact you. In fact, you explicitly stated that the "environment" was "no longer available". That implies you have no way of getting useful information, even if someone were interested in some details. The "fix" you explicitly offered was to "use linux", which is another statement that just slams a door on the idea of any discussion. In short, all your PR did was complain. I realize this message is not very helpful, but all I am trying to do is explain why your original PR did certainly seem like a "troll" for some flame war. There are so many details you COULD have said, and did not say, that it was pretty hard to take the PR seriously. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 12 21:41:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C53A537B422; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA32671; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:31:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200009130431.AAA32671@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "billf@FreeBSD.ORG" , "Stan Osborne" Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:01:03 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: advocacy/21238: poor performance; missed opportunities Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:34:34 -0700 (PDT), Stan Osborne wrote: >Ok take it that way. Go ahead and close the PR without ever >consulting the person who submitted it in the first place. I am very sad to report that I had a simmilar experience in terms of a PR in the not so distant past. It is as if there is a quota of how many PRs need to be handled or as if they want to keep the number of open PRs to a certain level. My PR was closed and I was basically told to write to the questions list and provide more info. I had written to the questions list prior to opening the PR. Moreover, I provided what info I thought was necessary/needed. I was not even given the opportunity to expand. This is the exact type of behavior that will totally discourage new users to use FreeBSD. I would almost rather not have PRs than to have this type of behaviour. francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 12 21:45:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC3037B423; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e8D4ipU11383; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:44:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: "Francisco Reyes" Cc: "billf@FreeBSD.ORG" , "Stan Osborne" , "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: advocacy/21238: poor performance; missed opportunities In-Reply-To: Message from "Francisco Reyes" of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:01:03 EDT." <200009130431.AAA32671@sanson.reyes.somos.net> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:44:51 -0700 Message-ID: <11379.968820291@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > My PR was closed and I was basically told to write to the > questions list and provide more info. > I had written to the questions list prior to opening the PR. > Moreover, I provided what info I thought was necessary/needed. Actually, should you dispute the closing of any PR it's also possible for you to get it opened again and to also post follow-ups to it (regardless of whether it's open or closed) by sending email to freebsd-gnats-submit@freebsd.org and quoting the PR# in the subject line of your message. GNATs will do the rest. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 12 21:51:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C6F37B424; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA32719; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:41:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200009130441.AAA32719@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Jordan Hubbard" Cc: "billf@FreeBSD.ORG" , "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" , "Stan Osborne" Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:10:41 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: <11379.968820291@winston.osd.bsdi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: advocacy/21238: poor performance; missed opportunities Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:44:51 -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote: >Actually, should you dispute the closing of any PR it's also possible >for you to get it opened again and to also post follow-ups to it Thanks for the info. I think that many times one doesn't write all the needed data, but to simply have the PR closed instead of asking for more info is very frustrating to the end user. francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 12 21:55:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6AC437B423; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e8D4tR224989; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:55:27 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Stan Osborne , billf@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: advocacy/21238: poor performance; missed opportunities Message-ID: <20000912215527.S12231@fw.wintelcom.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from drosih@rpi.edu on Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 12:20:59AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Garance A Drosihn [000912 21:18] wrote: > At 7:34 PM -0700 9/12/00, Stan Osborne wrote: > >Your tone/attitude may explain why FreeBSD is not keeping up with > >the Linux hord. Me, I'm trying to let the FreeBSD developer > >community know what is happening in the real world. I'm the > >internal advocate for FreeBSD and one of the reasons we went to > >the effort to evealuate FreeBSD. I am very dissapointed that > >after trying to justify switching to FreeBSD we could not. > > The text in your initial PR was such that it was very easy to > assume it was a troll. Very very easy. I'm also astonished that they brought in a consultant which probably means a somewhat high fee of at least 75$/hr (more likely 120-150 in the bay area) and didn't bother to pick up a boxed set so that they could contact BSDi for support? If this consultant was worth his salt he'd be able to diagnose at least one problem down to a specific issue that you could have used to provide a meaningful bug report instead of posting something out of fustration that makes you look foolish. I'm aware that FreeBSD may not be optimal for every situation but you shouldn't go off at us (the developers) when you've been blindly following someone who seems as blind as yourself. I mean seriously, you're back to using Linux, (woohoo!) what's the point of harrassing us when you have no useful information to help us address these alleged shortcomings? -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 12 21:59:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4FB037B424; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA22047; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:59:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:59:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Francisco Reyes Cc: "billf@FreeBSD.ORG" , Stan Osborne , "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: advocacy/21238: poor performance; missed opportunities In-Reply-To: <200009130431.AAA32671@sanson.reyes.somos.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:34:34 -0700 (PDT), Stan Osborne wrote: > > >Ok take it that way. Go ahead and close the PR without ever > >consulting the person who submitted it in the first place. > > I am very sad to report that I had a simmilar experience in > terms of a PR in the not so distant past. > It is as if there is a quota of how many PRs need to be handled > or as if they want to keep the number of open PRs to a certain > level. No, but it is a true statement that there are more PRs than the few FreeBSD users willing to investigate and follow up on them have time to handle, despite the best efforts of several people to keep the database in check. Moreover, checking PR 20939, to which I assume you refer, I think sheldon was justified in closing it, because there's nothing which anyone can realistically do based on the information you provided there ("it doesnt boot"). Basically, that PR looks like one of any number of others which only say "I tried to install FreeBSD on my machine and it didnt work" with the solution usually being "hardware problem" or "user error". Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 12 22:10:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A910337B423; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA32808; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:01:02 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200009130501.BAA32808@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Kris Kennaway" Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:29:35 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Handling of PRs Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:59:36 -0700 (PDT), Kris Kennaway wrote: >Moreover, checking PR 20939, to which I assume you refer, I think sheldon >was justified in closing it, because there's nothing which anyone can >realistically do based on the information you provided there ("it doesnt >boot"). I really wish someone could tell me what else I could have given so I can do better next time. The solution to my problem cost me $259. I had to buy a CDrom (ok so I could have bought a cheap one, but opted for a CD-RW). FreeBSD simply would not boot of the floppy. All I can think that can be given in a situation like this is: -Brand of floppy drive -OS version -Whether the machine boots of some other OS -Did the FreeBSD boot floppies boot on a different machine When a PR is closed by saying "you didn't give enough info" this doesn't teach the user what info he/she should have sent and more importantly does NOTHING to help the user. If we help/teach our users how to send better PRs we all benefit. We could even write a standard request for info sheet or put it somewhere on the FAQ/Handbook so people know what they need to provide. francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Sep 12 22:33:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6555437B422; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA32865; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:33:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:33:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Francisco Reyes Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Handling of PRs In-Reply-To: <200009130501.BAA32808@sanson.reyes.somos.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:59:36 -0700 (PDT), Kris Kennaway wrote: > > >Moreover, checking PR 20939, to which I assume you refer, I think sheldon > >was justified in closing it, because there's nothing which anyone can > >realistically do based on the information you provided there ("it doesnt > >boot"). > > I really wish someone could tell me what else I could have given > so I can do better next time. > The solution to my problem cost me $259. I had to buy a CDrom > (ok so I could have bought a cheap one, but opted for a CD-RW). > > FreeBSD simply would not boot of the floppy. All I can think > that can be given in a situation like this is: > -Brand of floppy drive > -OS version > -Whether the machine boots of some other OS Floppy drives suck. In this case the most likely explanation seems to me to be "hardware problem, buy a new floppy drive". > -Did the FreeBSD boot floppies boot on a different machine You didn't even include this fact - for all the PR said they could have been bad floppies. I don't want to speak for Sheldon or the few other guys who are basically maintaining the PR database on their own, but if it was me the effort involved in trying to extract real details from this near-empty PR which was probably (statistically speaking) just another one of the truly content free PRs about installation failures would be outweighed by working on one which has a higher chance of actually being true. > When a PR is closed by saying "you didn't give enough info" this > doesn't teach the user what info he/she should have sent and > more importantly does NOTHING to help the user. Well, that wasn't what was said: Audit-Trail State-Changed-From-To: open->closed State-Changed-By: sheldonh State-Changed-When: Wed Aug 30 03:44:53 PDT 2000 State-Changed-Why: This doesn't describe a problem with FreeBSD. It also doesn't provide any information that anyone wanting to help might be able to use. Consider providing a much more detailed description (including the details of what you actually see) in an e-mail message to . Take the lesson and realise your PR gave the developers nothing to work on, move on, and think harder about what you include in the next one so that someone has a chance of solving it (or don't mind if it's closed as undecidable). > If we help/teach our users how to send better PRs we all > benefit. We could even write a standard request for info sheet > or put it somewhere on the FAQ/Handbook so people know what they > need to provide. I guess "we" could, but it's not going to appear out of thin air.. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 4: 0:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0872737B43F for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 04:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id EAA34022; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 04:00:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 04:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200009131100.EAA34022@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: From: Mark Blackman Subject: Re: advocacy/21238: poor performance; missed opportunities Reply-To: Mark Blackman Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The following reply was made to PR advocacy/21238; it has been noted by GNATS. From: Mark Blackman To: stan@craigslist.org Cc: freebsd-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: advocacy/21238: poor performance; missed opportunities Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:51:17 +0100 The problem seen seems like it might be related to a point raised by Richard Wendland (of Netcraft) on the freebsd-current mailing list on March 22, 2000. (http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=575728+585714+/usr/local/www/db/text/2000/freebsd-current/20000326.freebsd-current) It boiled down to the async vs. sync nature of the default file system mounting. These DB files tend to have lots of random I/O and "This issue appears to be related to the traditional BSD behaviour of immediately scheduling full disc block writes" according to Richard. Set your FreeBSD file-system to async and see what that does for your performance. Linux systems (dangerously) mount by default async. FreeBSD does not take such risks with filesystems content. Alternately, set your Linux filesystem to synchronous and see what happens to your Linux performance. Finally, a more helpful procedure might have been a) post to freebsd-questions. "why is there such a performance differrence between FreeBSD and Linux for application X?" b) failing that, freebsd-advocacy and/or freebsd-hackers. I'm not sure this is the same problem but its a good starting point. Didn't you ask your consultant why there was such a difference? - Mark On Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 05:16:49PM -0700, stan@craigslist.org wrote: > > >Number: 21238 > >Category: advocacy > >Synopsis: poor performance; missed opportunities > >Confidential: no > >Severity: critical > >Priority: high > >Responsible: freebsd-advocacy > >State: open > >Quarter: > >Keywords: > >Date-Required: > >Class: sw-bug > >Submitter-Id: current-users > >Arrival-Date: Tue Sep 12 17:20:01 PDT 2000 > >Closed-Date: > >Last-Modified: > >Originator: Stan Osborne > >Release: 4.0 > >Organization: > Craigslist > >Environment: > no longer available > >Description: > After an outside consultant advocated we "upgrade" from Linux to FreeBSD > our sysadmin staff invested much time and effort into evaluating FreeBSD. > A new production server was built using FreeBSD 4.0 and comparted with > Linux, all on the same hardware. The result was a comparison of the > two OSs on the same hardware running the exact same application tests. > This type of testing is as fair as it gets. > > The reasons for staying with Linux follow. > > o) Linux (2.2.16 kernel) benchmarked far better in terms of our search > code (3x faster on the same box), and slightly better for Apache > performance. > > o) The final straw was that the GDBM libraries for FreeBSD were very > slow. > > If performance of these two important tests was close to the same, > we would have switched to FreeBSD. Instead, for now the idea > of switching to FreeBSD has been dropped and not likley to be > re-examined anytime soon. > > Until fairly unsophisticated applications perform as well on > FreeBSD, these rare opportunities to convert a predominately > Linux shop to FreeBSD are a waste of time. > >How-To-Repeat: > Properly benchmark GDBM and Apache based applications > using the same hardware. Compare results between FreeBSD > and Linux. > >Fix: > Regretably the fix is to use Linux. > > >Release-Note: > >Audit-Trail: > >Unformatted: > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 5: 4:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from slkcpop2.slkc.uswest.net (slkcpop2.slkc.uswest.net [206.81.128.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D8E8237B423 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 05:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 70483 invoked by alias); 13 Sep 2000 12:04:31 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 70473 invoked by uid 0); 13 Sep 2000 12:04:30 -0000 Received: from badialup96.slkc.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (63.225.236.96) by slkcpop2.slkc.uswest.net with SMTP; 13 Sep 2000 12:04:30 -0000 Message-ID: <39BF6C5A.991F196B@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 06:00:26 -0600 From: Joe Warner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd newbies , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: BSD Magazine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, Does anyone know if there are plans to produce a BSD focused magazine in a hard copy edition? All of the online publications are great but I'm the kind of guy who likes to hold a publication in my hands when I read it. It would be great if I could go to a local magazine stand and find the equivalent of Linux Magazine for the BSD OS. I would certainly subscribe. Just wondering. Thanks Joe -- FreeBSD = The Power to Serve ..Simply put = FreeBSD Rocks! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 5:15:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5F5037B422; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 05:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA69512; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:15:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:15:31 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Joe Warner Cc: freebsd newbies , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine Message-ID: <20000913081530.A69493@blackhelicopters.org> References: <39BF6C5A.991F196B@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <39BF6C5A.991F196B@uswest.net>; from jswarner@uswest.net on Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 06:00:26AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 06:00:26AM -0600, Joe Warner wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone know if there are plans to produce a BSD focused magazine > in a hard copy edition? Not that I know of. And believe me, I'm asking publishers. :) ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 7:28:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1563237B42C; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA69903; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:28:05 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:28:05 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Ignacio Cristerna Cc: freebsd newbies , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine Message-ID: <20000913102805.A69843@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20000913081530.A69493@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from ignacioc@avantel.net on Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 08:59:34AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I actually have some experience in publishing, and working with publishers. There's two ways we could make this a reality. 1) Do it ourselves. This is a pain, and less "legit" looking. We could put a plan together and try to get some fancy corporate backing (i.e., BSDi), but then we need to assemble distributors, handle record-keeping, etc. It's not a small job. Doing it single-handedly is a really, *really* sucky and thankless job. (I used to work for AGIS; believe me, I know "sucky".) With corporate backing it would be a full-time job. 2) Convince a media conglomerate to do it. Media companies will publish anything that there is a market for. They need print runs of a good 5,000-10,000 magazines to make it even vaguely worthwhile. The editors need to know that they can sell that many copies of a magazine. This boils down to, people need to ask for the magazine. Just like in software support. Polite grassroots efforts, and so on. The editors also need to see articles on the same topic in other magazines, for cross-pollination. My summation: if you want to see a BSD magazine, make a two-pronged effort: a) contact editors and ask for it. Politely. b) sell BSD articles to print magazines c) Involve the other BSDs in a) and b). This is a case where numbers matter big-time, just like counting page views. I'm giving a talk on b) at BSDCon, and will hopefully make a revised paper available after the conference. ==ml On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 08:59:34AM -0500, Ignacio Cristerna wrote: > After seeing all this Linux frenzy, I keep wondering and thinking about the > same thing. There are currently 2 Linux magazines that I know of. Is it too > much to ask to have a BSD magazine. I think that we should aim for a more > streamlined format, maybe a PDF or PS file that everyone could print out or > a magazine with a few pages. I believe the point would be to create a sense > of community and let the rest of the world that we are here, that we are > have a good "product" to offer. > Just my 2 centavos. > > Greetings to the FreeBSD community (with or without magazine) from > Monterrey, Mexico. -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 7:44:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.smed.com (smtp.smed.com [12.20.51.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD4737B42C; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpgate.shrmed.com (keymaster.smed.com [12.20.51.2]) by smtp.smed.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3468161AC; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:44:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iesa14.shrmed.com (iesa14.shrmed.com [10.1.99.114]) by smtpgate.shrmed.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29951; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:44:37 -0400 From: Joe.Warner@smed.com Received: from Deimos.smed.com (unverified) by iesa14.shrmed.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with SMTP id ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:44:33 -0400 Received: by Deimos.smed.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id 85256959.0050D45E ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:42:52 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SMS To: Michael Lucas Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd newbies , Ignacio Cristerna Message-Id: <85256959.0050691C.00@Deimos.smed.com> Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:40:48 -0600 Subject: Re: BSD Magazine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG a) contact editors and ask for it. Politely. Which editors? Could you give some examples of some editors/publishers of sound reputation that would be good to start with? Thanks Joe |--------+------------------------------> | | Michael Lucas | | | | | | | | | 09/13/00 08:28 AM | | | | |--------+------------------------------> >---------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: Ignacio Cristerna | | cc: freebsd newbies | | , | | freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, (bcc: Joe | | Warner/SMS) | | Subject: Re: BSD Magazine | >---------------------------------------------------------| I actually have some experience in publishing, and working with publishers. There's two ways we could make this a reality. 1) Do it ourselves. This is a pain, and less "legit" looking. We could put a plan together and try to get some fancy corporate backing (i.e., BSDi), but then we need to assemble distributors, handle record-keeping, etc. It's not a small job. Doing it single-handedly is a really, *really* sucky and thankless job. (I used to work for AGIS; believe me, I know "sucky".) With corporate backing it would be a full-time job. 2) Convince a media conglomerate to do it. Media companies will publish anything that there is a market for. They need print runs of a good 5,000-10,000 magazines to make it even vaguely worthwhile. The editors need to know that they can sell that many copies of a magazine. This boils down to, people need to ask for the magazine. Just like in software support. Polite grassroots efforts, and so on. The editors also need to see articles on the same topic in other magazines, for cross-pollination. My summation: if you want to see a BSD magazine, make a two-pronged effort: a) contact editors and ask for it. Politely. b) sell BSD articles to print magazines c) Involve the other BSDs in a) and b). This is a case where numbers matter big-time, just like counting page views. I'm giving a talk on b) at BSDCon, and will hopefully make a revised paper available after the conference. ==ml On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 08:59:34AM -0500, Ignacio Cristerna wrote: > After seeing all this Linux frenzy, I keep wondering and thinking about the > same thing. There are currently 2 Linux magazines that I know of. Is it too > much to ask to have a BSD magazine. I think that we should aim for a more > streamlined format, maybe a PDF or PS file that everyone could print out or > a magazine with a few pages. I believe the point would be to create a sense > of community and let the rest of the world that we are here, that we are > have a good "product" to offer. > Just my 2 centavos. > > Greetings to the FreeBSD community (with or without magazine) from > Monterrey, Mexico. -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 7:45:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4BA837B423; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 00FF010; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:45:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA15C49A14; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:45:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:45:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Coleman To: Michael Lucas Cc: Ignacio Cristerna , freebsd newbies , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: <20000913102805.A69843@blackhelicopters.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Daemon News has always been interested in having a print version. But we would need some pretty good sponsorship to get it to happen. All of us still have day jobs. It would definately be a full time job for a small staff of dedicated people. We would love to be a part of it if anyone makes any progress. However, we have too many other things going on to work on it ourselves at this point. We did approach someone last year, but they said the market wasn't ready yet. I don't know if it will be now or not. Chris Coleman Daemon News http://www.daemonnews.org Bringing BSD together On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Michael Lucas wrote: > I actually have some experience in publishing, and working with > publishers. There's two ways we could make this a reality. > > 1) Do it ourselves. > > This is a pain, and less "legit" looking. We could put a plan > together and try to get some fancy corporate backing (i.e., BSDi), but > then we need to assemble distributors, handle record-keeping, etc. > It's not a small job. Doing it single-handedly is a really, *really* > sucky and thankless job. (I used to work for AGIS; believe me, I know > "sucky".) With corporate backing it would be a full-time job. > > 2) Convince a media conglomerate to do it. > > Media companies will publish anything that there is a market for. > They need print runs of a good 5,000-10,000 magazines to make it even > vaguely worthwhile. The editors need to know that they can sell that > many copies of a magazine. > > This boils down to, people need to ask for the magazine. Just like in > software support. Polite grassroots efforts, and so on. > > The editors also need to see articles on the same topic in other > magazines, for cross-pollination. > > My summation: if you want to see a BSD magazine, make a two-pronged > effort: > > a) contact editors and ask for it. Politely. > > b) sell BSD articles to print magazines > > c) Involve the other BSDs in a) and b). This is a case where numbers > matter big-time, just like counting page views. > > I'm giving a talk on b) at BSDCon, and will hopefully make a revised > paper available after the conference. > > ==ml > > On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 08:59:34AM -0500, Ignacio Cristerna wrote: > > After seeing all this Linux frenzy, I keep wondering and thinking about the > > same thing. There are currently 2 Linux magazines that I know of. Is it too > > much to ask to have a BSD magazine. I think that we should aim for a more > > streamlined format, maybe a PDF or PS file that everyone could print out or > > a magazine with a few pages. I believe the point would be to create a sense > > of community and let the rest of the world that we are here, that we are > > have a good "product" to offer. > > Just my 2 centavos. > > > > Greetings to the FreeBSD community (with or without magazine) from > > Monterrey, Mexico. > > -- > Michael Lucas > mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org > http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ > Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 7:49:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B087437B424; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA70046; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:49:52 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:49:52 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Joe.Warner@smed.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd newbies , Ignacio Cristerna Subject: Re: BSD Magazine Message-ID: <20000913104952.A70024@blackhelicopters.org> References: <85256959.0050691C.00@Deimos.smed.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <85256959.0050691C.00@Deimos.smed.com>; from Joe.Warner@smed.com on Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 08:40:48AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 08:40:48AM -0600, Joe.Warner@smed.com wrote: > > > a) contact editors and ask for it. Politely. > > Which editors? Could you give some examples > of some editors/publishers of sound reputation > that would be good to start with? Sound reputation? You haven't worked in publishing, have you? :) Seriously, I've meant to assemble a list for some time, but haven't had the chance. I've worked well with CMP; they do what they say, but their pay is low and they take all rights forever (yike!). I'd check the publishers of the Linux rags and approach them first. Check magazines you read and enjoy, and approach them. ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 7:54:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 744D937B423; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA70069; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:54:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:54:25 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Chris Coleman Cc: Ignacio Cristerna , freebsd newbies , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine Message-ID: <20000913105425.B70024@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20000913102805.A69843@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from chrisc@vmunix.com on Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:45:21AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:45:21AM -0400, Chris Coleman wrote: > We did approach someone last year, but they said the market wasn't ready > yet. I don't know if it will be now or not. I doubt it is, sadly. The "real world" (i.e., everything not on the Web) doesn't see much in print about BSD. This needs to change before we see a BSD mag. Remember, publishing houses half dismiss the Web, and half quake in their boots over it. While DN publishes some very high-quality pieces, it (from real-world POV) doesn't count nearly as much as the same number of articles in print would. Moral of the story: do things the hard way, submit BSD articles to print magazines. They're not nearly as nice to work with as the web ones, but that's what we *need*. Also, if anyone does start a print magazine, I want a column. :) ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 8:51: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.smed.com (smtp.smed.com [12.20.51.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C7B37B424; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpgate.shrmed.com (keymaster.smed.com [12.20.51.2]) by smtp.smed.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C543416171; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:50:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iesa14.shrmed.com (iesa14.shrmed.com [10.1.99.114]) by smtpgate.shrmed.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08115; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:50:53 -0400 From: Joe.Warner@smed.com Received: from Deimos.smed.com (unverified) by iesa14.shrmed.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with SMTP id ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:50:46 -0400 Received: by Deimos.smed.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id 85256959.0056E5B1 ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:49:08 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SMS To: "Jake Ludington (E-mail)" Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-Id: <85256959.0056E4CE.00@Deimos.smed.com> Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:51:35 -0600 Subject: RE: BSD Magazine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Why is everyone concerned with the traditional publishing model? I wouldn't say everyone but speaking for myself, I like something that has great content, illustrations and something I can hold in my hands and read. The same goes for books and reference manuals. I don't know if it's because it's just what I'm used to and I don't know if I would have the same preference if I learned to read online and had never picked up a hard copy publication. Joe |--------+--------------------------------> | | "Ludington, Jacob" | | | | | | | | | 09/13/00 09:06 AM | | | Please respond to | | | "Jake Ludington | | | (E-mail)" | | | | |--------+--------------------------------> >---------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: "'Michael Lucas'" | | | | cc: "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" | | , (bcc: Joe | | Warner/SMS) | | Subject: RE: BSD Magazine | >---------------------------------------------------------| Why is everyone concerned with the traditional publishing model? Wouldn't it make just as much sense to establish an BSD Email newsletter that provided poeople with useful articles delivered straight to their inbox? The authors of the articles could still get paid for their content, the newsletter could be supported by selling targeted advertising (the same thing that magazines do offline) and the content is already in an archivable format that could be referenced from the web anytime. This would eliminate printing costs meaning that the newsletter could be provided to subscribers for free. If anyone is interested in pursuing this model, feel free to contact me. I don't have the time or expertise to write the content, but I would be more than willing to head up the launch and marketing of the newsletter. Jake Ludington jake@ediblehype.com On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:45:21AM -0400, Chris Coleman wrote: >> We did approach someone last year, but they said the market wasn't ready >> yet. I don't know if it will be now or not. >I doubt it is, sadly. >The "real world" (i.e., everything not on the Web) doesn't see much in >print about BSD. This needs to change before we see a BSD mag. >Remember, publishing houses half dismiss the Web, and half quake in >their boots over it. While DN publishes some very high-quality >pieces, it (from real-world POV) doesn't count nearly as much as the >same number of articles in print would. >Moral of the story: do things the hard way, submit BSD articles to >print magazines. They're not nearly as nice to work with as the web >ones, but that's what we *need*. >Also, if anyone does start a print magazine, I want a column. :) ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 8:59:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9CB37B423; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA70521; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:59:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) From: Michael Lucas Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:59:31 -0400 To: "Ludington, Jacob" Cc: "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine Message-ID: <20000913115931.A70485@blackhelicopters.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i yFrom: 'Michael Lucas' In-Reply-To: ; from Jacob.Ludington@ed.state.ia.us on Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:42:09AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think you may be discounting the ability of email newsletters reaching the > masses. Quite possibly. BTW, Big Scary Daemons isn't a newsletter, it's just a column. It's part of the BSD DevCenter. (Just a column... never mind that when I was asked to write a regular column for the company I consider the Dean of Technical Publishers I yelped loudly enough that my wife thought I had stepped on a nail again. :) > My guess would be there are many > others who didn't know it existed either. You would be right. > O'Reilly doesn't make it obvious if its even possible to subscribe to > Big Scary Daemons.(Where's the subscription form?) It's not, you have to go there. But it could certainly be better advertised. (Then again, it's new, give Chris some time. :) The same could be said for any BSD resources. > As for e-books, there aren't exactly any conveniently(price and ease of use) > designed readers on the market that I'm aware of. I'm not suggesting that > email newsletters will ever completely replace print media, although the > main reason I look at print publications anymore is solely for the > advertising. Another whole argument. I don't think e-readers will ever replace books. Now let's drop that before the whole conversation gets completely derailed. :) So, an email newsletter would be a possibility. We have the official FreeBSD Real-Quick news, but that comes out irregularly. Perhaps a different sort of freebsd-announce, basically an email version of daily daemonnews? You might even be able to pool resources with the daemonnews people somehow. (I am in no way tied to DN, so don't take this as any sort of offer.) ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 9:22:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.jigaboos.com (cx432478-a.cnbfs1.ia.home.com [24.17.99.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C371E37B424; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (phire@localhost.cnbfs1.ia.home.com [127.0.0.1]) by ns1.jigaboos.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e8DGLLb05701; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:21:21 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:21:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Joshua Barker To: Joe.Warner@smed.com Cc: "Jake Ludington (E-mail)" , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: <85256959.0056E4CE.00@Deimos.smed.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've been reading online for almost 11 years now, and I still prefer the hard copy version :) On Wed, 13 Sep 2000 Joe.Warner@smed.com wrote: > > > > Why is everyone concerned with the traditional publishing model? > > I wouldn't say everyone but speaking for myself, I like something > that has great content, illustrations and something I can hold > in my hands and read. The same goes for books and reference > manuals. I don't know if it's because it's just what I'm used > to and I don't know if I would have the same preference if I > learned to read online and had never picked up a hard copy > publication. > > Joe > > > > |--------+--------------------------------> > | | "Ludington, Jacob" | > | | | | ate.ia.us> | > | | | > | | 09/13/00 09:06 AM | > | | Please respond to | > | | "Jake Ludington | > | | (E-mail)" | > | | | > |--------+--------------------------------> > >---------------------------------------------------------| > | | > | To: "'Michael Lucas'" | > | | > | cc: "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" | > | , (bcc: Joe | > | Warner/SMS) | > | Subject: RE: BSD Magazine | > >---------------------------------------------------------| > > > > > > Why is everyone concerned with the traditional publishing model? Wouldn't > it make just as much sense to establish an BSD Email newsletter that > provided poeople with useful articles delivered straight to their inbox? > The > authors of the articles could still get paid for their content, the > newsletter could be supported by selling targeted advertising (the same > thing that magazines do offline) and the content is already in an > archivable > format that could be referenced from the web anytime. This would eliminate > printing costs meaning that the newsletter could be provided to subscribers > for free. > > If anyone is interested in pursuing this model, feel free to contact me. I > don't have the time or expertise to write the content, but I would be more > than willing to head up the launch and marketing of the newsletter. > > Jake Ludington > > jake@ediblehype.com > > > > > On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:45:21AM -0400, Chris Coleman wrote: > >> We did approach someone last year, but they said the market wasn't ready > >> yet. I don't know if it will be now or not. > > >I doubt it is, sadly. > > >The "real world" (i.e., everything not on the Web) doesn't see much in > >print about BSD. This needs to change before we see a BSD mag. > > >Remember, publishing houses half dismiss the Web, and half quake in > >their boots over it. While DN publishes some very high-quality > >pieces, it (from real-world POV) doesn't count nearly as much as the > >same number of articles in print would. > > >Moral of the story: do things the hard way, submit BSD articles to > >print magazines. They're not nearly as nice to work with as the web > >ones, but that's what we *need*. > > >Also, if anyone does start a print magazine, I want a column. :) > > ==ml > > -- > Michael Lucas > mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org > http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ > Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 9:54:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E48B237B424; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scottj@localhost) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA79600; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:54:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:54:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Scott X-Sender: scottj@pebkac.owp.csus.edu To: Michael Lucas Cc: "Ludington, Jacob" , "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: <20000913115931.A70485@blackhelicopters.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Michael Lucas wrote: > Perhaps a different sort of freebsd-announce, basically an email > version of daily daemonnews? You might even be able to pool resources > with the daemonnews people somehow. (I am in no way tied to DN, so > don't take this as any sort of offer.) Um, *cough*, you can already subscribe to get email'ed the news that shows up on the Daily Daemon News. Under the box on the right hand side that says :"Daemon News in your e-mail" It gets sent out every x number of stories, where I believe is x is 10 if I recall correctly. --- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu The Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 10: 9:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sword.cisco.com (sword.cisco.com [161.44.208.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFBB537B424 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sjt-u10.cisco.com (sjt-u10.cisco.com [161.44.208.184]) by sword.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id NAA00538 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:02:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve Tremblett Received: (sjt@localhost) by sjt-u10.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/CISCO.WS.1.2) id NAA04451 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200009131709.NAA04451@sjt-u10.cisco.com> Subject: Re: BSD Magazine To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:09:53 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <85256959.0056E4CE.00@Deimos.smed.com> from "Joe.Warner@smed.com" at Sep 13, 2000 09:51:35 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG +--- Joe.Warner@smed.com wrote: | | Why is everyone concerned with the traditional publishing model? | | I wouldn't say everyone but speaking for myself, I like something | that has great content, illustrations and something I can hold | in my hands and read. The same goes for books and reference | manuals. I don't know if it's because it's just what I'm used | to and I don't know if I would have the same preference if I | learned to read online and had never picked up a hard copy | publication. | How about the best of both worlds? A proposal could be made to Daemonnews or some other online publication to generate printable versions of their publications. Of course that would move the focus from the reader discussion solely onto the articles, which could be a factor. Not to say that the articles aren't significant, but these sites often take on a community-life of their own. These slashdot-style sites all have automated architectures - I doubt it would be a big deal to run an article set through some formatting templates and generate a printable newsletter to co-incide with the online version. It doesn't put it on a newsstand in front of Joe Average's face, but it is a start. Maybe computer stores with a BSD affinity could print a bunch and stack them with other free computer papers. Just a thought... -- Steve Tremblett Cisco Systems To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 10:11:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C73537B422; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA71024; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:11:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:11:39 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Joseph Scott Cc: "Ludington, Jacob" , "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine Message-ID: <20000913131139.A70961@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20000913115931.A70485@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu on Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 09:54:52AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joseph Scott wrote: > Um, *cough*, you can already subscribe to get email'ed the news > that shows up on the Daily Daemon News. Under the box on the right hand > side that says :"Daemon News in your e-mail" Hmmm, this foot is yummy. Would you like a bite, or shall I finish it myself? Okay, back on topic: BSD magazine, means either corporate sponsorship or more exposure. Generate exposure, and you'll get your magazine one way or another. Specific methods for exposing BSD are your regular -advocacy fare. Speaking of which, the second SeMIBUG meeting is tonight. Those of you in Southeast Michigan, check out www.semibug.mi.org and show up! ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 10:31:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBCD137B423; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02785; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:31:13 -0600 Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:31:13 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt To: Michael Lucas Cc: Joseph Scott , "Ludington, Jacob" , "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: <20000913131139.A70961@blackhelicopters.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Has anybody lobbied CMP or Ziff-Davis? I'm kind of thinking that ZD would publish a magazine on CP/M if enough people lobbied them, and CMP owns the carcass of Byte, which used to be the most respectable computer mag in existence at one time... On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Michael Lucas wrote: > Joseph Scott wrote: > > Um, *cough*, you can already subscribe to get email'ed the news > > that shows up on the Daily Daemon News. Under the box on the right hand > > side that says :"Daemon News in your e-mail" > > Hmmm, this foot is yummy. Would you like a bite, or shall I finish it > myself? > > Okay, back on topic: BSD magazine, means either corporate sponsorship > or more exposure. Generate exposure, and you'll get your magazine one > way or another. Specific methods for exposing BSD are your regular > -advocacy fare. > > Speaking of which, the second SeMIBUG meeting is tonight. Those of > you in Southeast Michigan, check out www.semibug.mi.org and show up! > > ==ml > > -- Customer: "I'm running Windows '98" Tech: "Yes." Customer: "My computer isn't working now." Tech: "Yes, you said that." Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 10:49:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from edmail.ed.state.ia.us (edmail.ed.state.ia.us [165.206.167.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150BE37B422; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by edmail.ed.state.ia.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:50:13 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Ludington, Jacob" To: 'Michael Lucas' Cc: "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: BSD Magazine Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:50:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >BTW, Big Scary Daemons isn't a newsletter, it's just a column. It's >part of the BSD DevCenter. (Just a column... never mind that when I >was asked to write a regular column for the company I consider the >Dean of Technical Publishers I yelped loudly enough that my wife >thought I had stepped on a nail again. :) >> O'Reilly doesn't make it obvious if its even possible to subscribe to >> Big Scary Daemons.(Where's the subscription form?) >It's not, you have to go there. But it could certainly be better >advertised. (Then again, it's new, give Chris some time. :) The same >could be said for any BSD resources. This would be where companies like O'Reilly are doing their customers and columnists a huge disservice. While I am sure it is thrilling to write for O'Reilly's website, it would be even better for you to know that people are reading what you write. It's well known in the IT industry that O'Reilly publishes some of the best books out there, think of the added value they could be providing by delivering your column to readers inboxes on a regular basis. I don't know about you, but personally I don't have time to check for new content at every website I visit. However, I do check my email several times a day and I read almost every issue of every newletter I subscribe to. If your column was sent to my inbox, assuming there was a place for me to sign up for it, I would read it every time it came out. As it stands now, I don't know for certain when it comes out. Feel free to pass this info on to Chris at O'Reilly, I would love to visit with him about the possibilities this could create.(If for no other reason than I could get expert opinions like yours delivered straight to my machine on a regular basis.) Jake Ludington jake@ediblehype.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 10:50:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rly-ip02.mx.aol.com (rly-ip02.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.160]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 601C537B423; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tot-wi.proxy.aol.com (tot-wi.proxy.aol.com [205.188.197.1]) by rly-ip02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id NAA21588; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oemcomputer (AC8C1DD4.ipt.aol.com [172.140.29.212]) by tot-wi.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id e8DHo1Z14690; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <003201c01daa$e5e7e680$8eca86ce@oemcomputer> From: "John M" To: "Michael Lucas" , "Ignacio Cristerna" Cc: "freebsd newbies" , References: <20000913081530.A69493@blackhelicopters.org> <20000913102805.A69843@blackhelicopters.org> Subject: Re: BSD Magazine Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:48:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Apparently-From: Long1driver@aol.com Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I would like to be in charge of Art Direction; the Linux magazines are such a mess visually. Can't there be a magazine with visuals that are organized and easy to read? I think so. John M. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Lucas" To: "Ignacio Cristerna" Cc: "freebsd newbies" ; Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 7:28 AM Subject: Re: BSD Magazine > I actually have some experience in publishing, and working with > publishers. There's two ways we could make this a reality. > > 1) Do it ourselves. > > This is a pain, and less "legit" looking. We could put a plan > together and try to get some fancy corporate backing (i.e., BSDi), but > then we need to assemble distributors, handle record-keeping, etc. > It's not a small job. Doing it single-handedly is a really, *really* > sucky and thankless job. (I used to work for AGIS; believe me, I know > "sucky".) With corporate backing it would be a full-time job. > > 2) Convince a media conglomerate to do it. > > Media companies will publish anything that there is a market for. > They need print runs of a good 5,000-10,000 magazines to make it even > vaguely worthwhile. The editors need to know that they can sell that > many copies of a magazine. > > This boils down to, people need to ask for the magazine. Just like in > software support. Polite grassroots efforts, and so on. > > The editors also need to see articles on the same topic in other > magazines, for cross-pollination. > > My summation: if you want to see a BSD magazine, make a two-pronged > effort: > > a) contact editors and ask for it. Politely. > > b) sell BSD articles to print magazines > > c) Involve the other BSDs in a) and b). This is a case where numbers > matter big-time, just like counting page views. > > I'm giving a talk on b) at BSDCon, and will hopefully make a revised > paper available after the conference. > > ==ml > > On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 08:59:34AM -0500, Ignacio Cristerna wrote: > > After seeing all this Linux frenzy, I keep wondering and thinking about the > > same thing. There are currently 2 Linux magazines that I know of. Is it too > > much to ask to have a BSD magazine. I think that we should aim for a more > > streamlined format, maybe a PDF or PS file that everyone could print out or > > a magazine with a few pages. I believe the point would be to create a sense > > of community and let the rest of the world that we are here, that we are > > have a good "product" to offer. > > Just my 2 centavos. > > > > Greetings to the FreeBSD community (with or without magazine) from > > Monterrey, Mexico. > > -- > Michael Lucas > mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org > http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ > Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 10:55:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 652D837B424; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA71427; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:55:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:55:39 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: John M Cc: Ignacio Cristerna , freebsd newbies , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine Message-ID: <20000913135539.B71365@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20000913081530.A69493@blackhelicopters.org> <20000913102805.A69843@blackhelicopters.org> <003201c01daa$e5e7e680$8eca86ce@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <003201c01daa$e5e7e680$8eca86ce@oemcomputer>; from John1mick@cs.com on Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:48:39AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:48:39AM -0700, John M wrote: > I would like to be in charge of Art Direction; the Linux magazines are such > a mess visually. Can't there be a magazine with visuals that are organized > and easy to read? I think so. Great! We can get Chris to edit, and I'll write furiously. All we need now is a publisher. >;) (And, while I'm dreaming, I'd like a pony.) Seriously, yes, the Linux mag visuals are "trendy". Blech. ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 11: 0:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (sub24-23.member.dsl-only.net [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAC4637B423; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 27C933286; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:24:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14D403285; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:24:14 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:24:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Rick Hamell To: "Ludington, Jacob" Cc: 'Michael Lucas' , "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > place for me to sign up for it, I would read it every time it came out. As > it stands now, I don't know for certain when it comes out. Feel free to > pass this info on to Chris at O'Reilly, I would love to visit with him about > the possibilities this could create.(If for no other reason than I could get > expert opinions like yours delivered straight to my machine on a regular > basis.) You're not the only person... I didn't even know about it until I found a link from daemonnews (I believe...) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 11: 4:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (host76-243.iwbc.net [216.228.76.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D81A37B423 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 13ZGt6-0000Dx-00; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:04:00 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:04:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: <200009131709.NAA04451@sjt-u10.cisco.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Steve Tremblett wrote: > How about the best of both worlds? A proposal could be made to > Daemonnews or some other online publication to generate printable > versions of their publications. Of course that would move the focus Some online publications have writing contracts and purchase the articles. This may be difficult to change because the parent companies may not want to pay more or support other media. > These slashdot-style sites all have automated architectures - I doubt > it would be a big deal to run an article set through some formatting > templates and generate a printable newsletter to co-incide with the > online version. Yes, I agree this is easily possible. But as a reader, it would be nice to have different, unique content in the print publication compared to online. (And then maybe the online and print publication -- and readers -- could benefit if there was additional and related information at a website.) > It doesn't put it on a newsstand in front of Joe Average's face, but > it is a start. Maybe computer stores with a BSD affinity could print > a bunch and stack them with other free computer papers. Sounds like a good and easy way to start. From personal experience[1], publishing print newsletters is a lot easier than publishing magazines and is a good way to start. I am interested in helping with a print publication (but I am not sure how much since I have a conflict of interest -- I already edit a BSD-related online publication owned by a company that sold its print interests a couple years ago). One problem I see is finding good writers who also KNOW BSD. (Or in other words, BSD gurus that know how to cleanly write and share their knowledge.) As we know, publishing online is a hundred times cheaper and easier. Nevertheless, the basic editorial work (finding and working with freelancers and other departments) is the same. Can anyone quickly set up a mailing list for discussing the "BSD magazine"? Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ 1) For a few years, I published several (maybe 15) print newsletters ranging from four pages to 16 pages covering high school basketball recruiting. I researched and wrote about 95% of the content -- this took me well over 25 hours per issue. At first, I designed the newsletter with MS Word and then later when I started working on my journalism degree I used Quark Express. The layout of each newsletter took anywhere from four hours to 30 hours. For printing, I basically printed the originals with a laser printer on 11x17 inch paper. Then used a normal copier service to make copies on both sides of 11x17 sheets. I folded them, addressed them and stamped them. (Some newsletters I also printed on 8.5x11 and I faxed them.) Printing (copying) and mailing newsletters took less than two hours per issue. The newsletters were very cheap to publish and profitable. Then I decided to publish a print magazine (same topic). For several months, I searched for freelancers. I spent at least 100 hours researching for my own content. I spent about 100 hours editing freelanced articles and laying out content (Quark Express). Then I printed on 11x17 inch sheets with a laser printer, and took the pages to Kinkos who photocopied all the sheets. Kinkos also used some special photocopier to copy on gloss cover stock for the magazine cover and they binded and trimmed the magazine. (This took a couple days.) Publishing the magazine (less than 50 copies) was definitely a money loser. Of course, I don't mention the hundreds of hours I spent in marketing! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 12: 3: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42E7737B423; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e8DJ2XU15113; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:02:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: Chris Coleman Cc: Michael Lucas , Ignacio Cristerna , freebsd newbies , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: Message from Chris Coleman of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:45:21 EDT." Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:02:33 -0700 Message-ID: <15108.968871753@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Daemon News has always been interested in having a print version. But we > would need some pretty good sponsorship to get it to happen. All of us > still have day jobs. Someone in Japan needs to talk with the publishers of BSD Magazine there again, I think. Last time I discussed this with them, which was back in April I think, they expressed a keen interest in doing an english language version of their BSD-oriented magazine and wanted to know more about the market demographics and size of the subscriber base. Unfortunately, I can only make numbers up when it comes to the potential subscriber base and it would require someone who's been "publishing" for awhile to come up with the hard numbers for page views, click-throughs, whatever, that they require in making this decision. That's not me. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 12:30:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E47C37B424; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e8DJUKU15367; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:30:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: Paul.Newman@pgen.com Cc: chrisc@vmunix.com, mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org, ignacioc@avantel.net, freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: Message from Paul.Newman@pgen.com of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 20:01:18 BST." <80256959.0068EC0D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:30:20 -0700 Message-ID: <15363.968873420@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > One good proxy for a number of likely magazine subscribers might be the > subscribers to FREEBSD CDs multiplied by 1.x Already tried that, they didn't see it that way. They want the actual number of people who will be interested in buying a magazine, not installation media. They would also like to know the number of potential advertisers. Aside from one ("BSDi"), I don't know of any companies which would "for sure" advertise in a BSD magazine and that's kind of another big problem. Most magazines make the bulk of their operating revenue on selling adverts, not on subscription fees and, unlike the Linux world, the BSD world isn't exactly exploding with hundreds of companies all trying to cash in on the gold rush. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 13: 2: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.jigaboos.com (cx432478-a.cnbfs1.ia.home.com [24.17.99.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3FD37B423; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (phire@localhost.cnbfs1.ia.home.com [127.0.0.1]) by ns1.jigaboos.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e8DK0ub06245; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:00:56 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:00:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Joshua Barker To: "Ludington, Jacob" Cc: "'Michael Lucas'" , "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jake, you're uhhh... missing the whole point here, the point is we offered to pay for a hard copy newsletter that would arrive in our MAILBOX like, paper and stuff? you know? maybe not, but you keep rambling about how INBOX is better for us since it's free, and blah blah blah when we said we'd PAY for a hard copy that we could hold in our hands and read.. Are you still missing the point? On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Ludington, Jacob wrote: > > > >BTW, Big Scary Daemons isn't a newsletter, it's just a column. It's > >part of the BSD DevCenter. (Just a column... never mind that when I > >was asked to write a regular column for the company I consider the > >Dean of Technical Publishers I yelped loudly enough that my wife > >thought I had stepped on a nail again. :) > > > >> O'Reilly doesn't make it obvious if its even possible to subscribe to > >> Big Scary Daemons.(Where's the subscription form?) > > >It's not, you have to go there. But it could certainly be better > >advertised. (Then again, it's new, give Chris some time. :) The same > >could be said for any BSD resources. > > This would be where companies like O'Reilly are doing their customers and > columnists a huge disservice. While I am sure it is thrilling to write for > O'Reilly's website, it would be even better for you to know that people are > reading what you write. It's well known in the IT industry that O'Reilly > publishes some of the best books out there, think of the added value they > could be providing by delivering your column to readers inboxes on a regular > basis. I don't know about you, but personally I don't have time to check > for new content at every website I visit. However, I do check my email > several times a day and I read almost every issue of every newletter I > subscribe to. If your column was sent to my inbox, assuming there was a > place for me to sign up for it, I would read it every time it came out. As > it stands now, I don't know for certain when it comes out. Feel free to > pass this info on to Chris at O'Reilly, I would love to visit with him about > the possibilities this could create.(If for no other reason than I could get > expert opinions like yours delivered straight to my machine on a regular > basis.) > > Jake Ludington > jake@ediblehype.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 13: 8:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34CE337B424; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e8DK8WU15732; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:08:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: Joshua Barker Cc: "Ludington, Jacob" , "'Michael Lucas'" , "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: Message from Joshua Barker of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:00:56 CDT." Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:08:32 -0700 Message-ID: <15727.968875712@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > we'd PAY for a hard copy that we could hold in our hands and read.. Are Great, could you guys just quietly count yourselves up and send the total to BSD Magazine, care of ASCII publishing in Tokyo, Japan? :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 13: 9:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.jigaboos.com (cx432478-a.cnbfs1.ia.home.com [24.17.99.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0478337B422; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (phire@localhost.cnbfs1.ia.home.com [127.0.0.1]) by ns1.jigaboos.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e8DK8ib06294; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:08:44 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:08:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Joshua Barker To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: "Ludington, Jacob" , "'Michael Lucas'" , "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: <15727.968875712@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Heh what I was getting at is, if some company decided to publish a BSD magazine, I'd rather subscribe to that than something in e-mail. On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > we'd PAY for a hard copy that we could hold in our hands and read.. Are > > Great, could you guys just quietly count yourselves up and send the > total to BSD Magazine, care of ASCII publishing in Tokyo, Japan? :-) > > - Jordan > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 13:13:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C29037B424; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e8DKDXU15827; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:13:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: Joshua Barker Cc: "Ludington, Jacob" , "'Michael Lucas'" , "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: Message from Joshua Barker of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:08:44 CDT." Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:13:33 -0700 Message-ID: <15823.968876013@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Heh what I was getting at is, if some company decided to publish a BSD > magazine, I'd rather subscribe to that than something in e-mail. And what I was getting at was, unless you can somehow communicate those exact desires back to a prospective publisher, no company will simply "decide to publish a BSD magazine" because they don't know how successful it will be and your desires are never fulfilled. It seems a lot of people are failing to get the point around here. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 13:15:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.jigaboos.com (cx432478-a.cnbfs1.ia.home.com [24.17.99.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36FF37B423; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (phire@localhost.cnbfs1.ia.home.com [127.0.0.1]) by ns1.jigaboos.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id e8DKEGb06330; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:14:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:14:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Joshua Barker To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: "Ludington, Jacob" , "'Michael Lucas'" , "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: <15823.968876013@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG what you were saying was that why not just go with inbox because you'd rather have inbox, because it's faster and free.. but not all of us would rather have it in our inbox, but yet our mailbox:) On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > Heh what I was getting at is, if some company decided to publish a BSD > > magazine, I'd rather subscribe to that than something in e-mail. > > And what I was getting at was, unless you can somehow communicate > those exact desires back to a prospective publisher, no company will > simply "decide to publish a BSD magazine" because they don't know how > successful it will be and your desires are never fulfilled. It seems > a lot of people are failing to get the point around here. :-) > > - Jordan > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 13:27:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E92937B424; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e8DKRHU15926; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:27:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: Joshua Barker Cc: "Ludington, Jacob" , "'Michael Lucas'" , "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: Message from Joshua Barker of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:14:16 CDT." Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:27:16 -0700 Message-ID: <15922.968876836@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > what you were saying was that why not just go with inbox because you'd > rather have inbox, because it's faster and free.. but not all of us would I never said anything of the sort during this conversation. Check your attribution more carefully. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 13:27:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from edmail.ed.state.ia.us (edmail.ed.state.ia.us [165.206.167.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEBDC37B42C; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by edmail.ed.state.ia.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:28:37 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Ludington, Jacob" To: 'Joshua Barker' , Jordan Hubbard Cc: 'Michael Lucas' , "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: BSD Magazine Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:28:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm not suggesting that an online newsletter would completely replace the possibility of an offline mag. However, the world of online publishing moves at a much greater speed than the stodgy print world and by developing a countable readership online it might be possible to translate that into a marketable offline venture. The perceived risk involved in starting an online publication is much lower than in the offline world as well. Magazine publishers only cover 30-50% of publication costs through subscriptions so they have much more to lose in terms of hard costs by launching a mag for an untested market. Jake Ludington > what you were saying was that why not just go with inbox because you'd > rather have inbox, because it's faster and free.. but not all > of us would > rather have it in our inbox, but yet our mailbox:) > > On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > > > Heh what I was getting at is, if some company decided to > publish a BSD > > > magazine, I'd rather subscribe to that than something in e-mail. > > > > And what I was getting at was, unless you can somehow communicate > > those exact desires back to a prospective publisher, no company will > > simply "decide to publish a BSD magazine" because they > don't know how > > successful it will be and your desires are never fulfilled. > It seems > > a lot of people are failing to get the point around here. :-) > > > > - Jordan > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 13:58: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B25D37B440; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipc3799025.dial.wxs.nl ([195.121.144.37]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 4.05 Jun 27 2000 10:40:22) with ESMTP id G0UFKM03.U92; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:57:58 +0200 Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:58:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Marc Veldman X-Sender: freebsd@kwetal.lurkie.org To: "Ludington, Jacob" Cc: "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just for kicks, could somebody point out the advantages of a BSD-specific magazine ? Most of the things I like to know about are 1) applications that are not uniqely BSD: Sendmail configuration, Perl hacking, apache, PHP, what-have-you. 2) Issues that relate to OS design and imple- mentation in general. 3) FreeBSD specific issues that I think are too specialized to attract a sufficiently large audience: Implementation of kernel threads, Writing BSD device drivers etc... Most of these things are adequately covered by various online and print sources. (DaemonNews being my prime source for 3 ). I would like read, and subscribe to, a magazine that covers at least points 2 and 3, especially if it brought some profit to the people doing the actual BSD developement. Where do I sign up ? Marc Veldman, CFBSDN (Certified FreeBSD Newbie) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 14:43:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5EE537B424; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA73266; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:43:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:43:44 -0400 From: "'Michael Lucas'" To: advocacy@freebsd.org, newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Magazine Message-ID: <20000913174344.A73203@blackhelicopters.org> References: <15727.968875712@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <15727.968875712@winston.osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com on Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 01:08:32PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [cc butchered for the general audience] On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 01:08:32PM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > we'd PAY for a hard copy that we could hold in our hands and read.. Are > Great, could you guys just quietly count yourselves up and send the > total to BSD Magazine, care of ASCII publishing in Tokyo, Japan? :-) The ASCII folks are certainly going to want information that we on this list can't provide without some serious pulling-numbers-out-of-bodily-orifice-of-your-choice. Remember the three kinds of math: lies, damned lies, and statistics. We'd be creating the worst of the lot. :) I still say the best way to get a BSD magazine is to get more BSD articles in print. Once we hit a certain critical mass, a publisher will start it on their own. Heck, if DB2 has a magazine, we can. Right now, months can pass without a single BSD article in print. We have one book, although more is on the way. When you see a BSD article in print, contact the editor. Let them know you found the article informative, and would like to see more of them. Many paper publishers shoot articles into the dark and hope that nobody bitches too much about them. Compliments stand out much more because of it. Believe it or else, editors want articles that are well-written and coherent. If you can put words in a row, apply grammar and a minimum of thought, they'll buy it. Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to excuse myself from this thread and go put my keystrokes where my mouth is. ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 14:45:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0B7037B422; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA73289; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:45:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:45:23 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Marc Veldman Cc: "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine Message-ID: <20000913174523.B73203@blackhelicopters.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from freebsd@planet.nl on Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:58:02PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:58:02PM +0200, Marc Veldman wrote: > Just for kicks, > > could somebody point out the advantages of a > BSD-specific magazine ? > Them penguin bastards have a magazine, and we want one too! ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 14:54: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (sub24-23.member.dsl-only.net [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C1637B42C; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0709E3286; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:17:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFBE53285; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:17:49 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:17:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Rick Hamell To: Michael Lucas Cc: "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: <20000913174523.B73203@blackhelicopters.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Just for kicks, > > > > could somebody point out the advantages of a > > BSD-specific magazine ? > > > > > > Them penguin bastards have a magazine, and we want one too! Yeah... it'd probally get denounced by all the right-wing Christian groups too for have a devil on the cover... :) Especially a friendly ol' fellow enticing our children from the newsracks right below Playboy and Penthouse, to enter into the 'Demonic world of computers...' :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Sep 13 15:13:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76B9D37B423; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16277; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:13:41 -0600 Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:13:41 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt To: Rick Hamell Cc: Michael Lucas , "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG That's a pretty good advantage: "it doesn't matter what they say, so long as they spell the name right", various politicians. On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Rick Hamell wrote: > > > > Just for kicks, > > > > > > could somebody point out the advantages of a > > > BSD-specific magazine ? > > > > > > > > > > > Them penguin bastards have a magazine, and we want one too! > > Yeah... it'd probally get denounced by all the right-wing > Christian groups too for have a devil on the cover... :) Especially a > friendly ol' fellow enticing our children from the newsracks right below > Playboy and Penthouse, to enter into the 'Demonic world of computers...' > :) > > > Rick > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > -- Galt's sci-fi paradox: Stormtroopers versus Redshirts to the death. Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Sep 14 7: 0:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.thuntek.net (mail2.thuntek.net [206.206.98.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B2737B423; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 07:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (abq-005.thuntek.net [207.66.52.5]) by mail2.thuntek.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e8EBuqM59413; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 05:56:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <39C0BCFB.3E7C4D81@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 05:56:43 -0600 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: Don@Silver-Lynx.com Organization: Silver Lynx X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.5-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Magazine References: <15727.968875712@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Great, could you guys just quietly count yourselves up and send the Kinda hard to "quietly" count when all we're connected by is these two pipes called -advocacy@ and -newbies@ :-))) Me and 4 copies to the Ukraine... It'd be the one trade mag I'd actually sit down and read. An important point was raised earlier. We can have a glossy rag with a lot of cigarette, beer and SUV ads or we can pay (a lot) more for one which is actually mostly content. BSD is at the stage where we won't attract a lot of consumer ads, so we should be ready to pay about $12 for our mag to get content like, say ;login: For me, that'd still be a bargain. If I get one useful idea out of every 2 issues, that's money in the bank! I'm sure our collective batting average would be better than that, so I'd be in the black with no trouble on a subscription. :-) -- Donald Wilde "Linking Minds and Micros" ================= S i l v e r L y n x =================== PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Silver-Lynx.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Sep 14 11:11:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from beast.daemontech.com (beast.daemontech.com [208.138.46.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 288F037B422 for ; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 58034 invoked by uid 200); 14 Sep 2000 18:11:06 -0000 Received: from xwin.nmhtech.com (208.138.46.10) by beast.daemontech.com with SMTP; 14 Sep 2000 18:11:06 -0000 Content-Length: 1541 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Daemon Technologies From: Nicole Harrington To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: BAFUG / BABUG (( HeadCount Request )) Meeting This Thursday In FosterCity Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greetings Requesting a sound off from those who will be attending tonights meeting so we can plan pizza and such. Also a small vote so I know how to order things: Please number in your order of preference. *) NetBoot setup and installation run-though *) Basic FreeBSD setup and installation *) Laying out your file systems and program installations Thanks Nicole -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our next meeting will be held: at IBM/Whistle on Thursday, Sept 14th. at 7:30pm. Our Topic: Installing FreeBSD By Nicole Harrington & FreeBSD NetBoot Install by Alfred Perlstein. This will be a walk thru demonstration on a live machine overviewing the install choices, file system layouts for different types of machines, swap size needs, code base and package installs choices and reasoning. ( I will also present my list of Nicole'isms or how "I" like machines setup and solcit alternatives. ) Alfred will be performing a walk thru demonstration of his new NetBoot install program that makes installing FreeBSD almost too easy. This should be a great time for someone new to FreeBSD to attend, and for those old hats to come and share your views. Express your reasons for how you perform your installs and more! An FTP mirror will be available for those who wish to bring a machine along if you are having trouble. Please see our website for more information: http://www.babug.org/ --------------End of forwarded message------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Sep 14 21: 1:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D5E37B424; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13Zmp9-0000Ls-00; Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:10:03 -0600 Message-ID: <39C1A11B.175CEAF0@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:10:03 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Lucas Cc: John M , Ignacio Cristerna , freebsd newbies , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Magazine References: <20000913081530.A69493@blackhelicopters.org> <20000913102805.A69843@blackhelicopters.org> <003201c01daa$e5e7e680$8eca86ce@oemcomputer> <20000913135539.B71365@blackhelicopters.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Michael Lucas wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:48:39AM -0700, John M wrote: > > I would like to be in charge of Art Direction; the Linux magazines are such > > a mess visually. Can't there be a magazine with visuals that are organized > > and easy to read? I think so. > > Seriously, yes, the Linux mag visuals are "trendy". Blech. Inter@ctive Week is "trendy," the Linux rags are just "sucky." -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Sep 15 3:54:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hal.medianet.ie (hal.medianet.ie [212.17.32.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB8C637B422 for ; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 03:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: [from liffey.co-operation-ireland.ie (guinness.medianet.ie [212.17.34.107] by hal.medianet.ie (DIESPAM) with ESMTP id e8FAsji22727 for ; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:54:45 +0100] Received: from it1 (it1 [199.107.2.129]) by liffey.co-operation-ireland.ie (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA09184 for ; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:53:50 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000915115451.00820210@199.107.2.1> X-Sender: relyod@199.107.2.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:54:51 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Mike Doyle Subject: Articles on the "Open Source" concept Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi All The accountant in my company has just noticed that I deployed another application on our FreeBSD server. (A web-based group calendar from SourceForge). He seems to be amazed that I got this "free", and wants to know more about open source. The only articles I have bookmarked are the ESR writings. I know there are other contrasting and opposing views out there. Has anyone got any handy URLs for the ethos behind creating/mantaining Open Source projects ? Thanks a million Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Sep 15 4: 9:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gate.cpmet.ufpel.tche.br (gate.cpmet.ufpel.tche.br [200.248.148.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1478937B423 for ; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 04:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (casantos@localhost) by gate.cpmet.ufpel.tche.br (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03309; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:12:04 GMT (envelope-from casantos@cpmet.ufpel.tche.br) X-Authentication-Warning: gate.cpmet.ufpel.tche.br: casantos owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:12:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Carlos A M dos Santos To: Mike Doyle Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Articles on the "Open Source" concept In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000915115451.00820210@199.107.2.1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You shoult take a look at "The Ethics of Free Software" for a less rosy point of view: http://www.sdmagazine.com/features/2000/03/f4.shtml On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, Mike Doyle wrote: > Hi All > > The accountant in my company has just noticed that I deployed another > application on our FreeBSD server. (A web-based group calendar from > SourceForge). > > He seems to be amazed that I got this "free", and wants to know more about > open source. The only articles I have bookmarked are the ESR writings. I know > there are other contrasting and opposing views out there. > > Has anyone got any handy URLs for the ethos behind creating/mantaining > Open Source projects ? > > Thanks a million Dolars? :-) -- Carlos A. M. dos Santos Federal University of Pelotas Meteorological Research Center Av. Ildefonso Simoes Lopes 2791 Pelotas, RS, Brasil, CEP 96060-290 WWW: http://www.cpmet.ufpel.tche.br RENPAC (X.25): 153231641 Phone: +55 53 277-6767 FAX: +55 53 277-6722 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Sep 15 4:47:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hal.medianet.ie (hal.medianet.ie [212.17.32.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6A3137B424 for ; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 04:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: [from liffey.co-operation-ireland.ie (guinness.medianet.ie [212.17.34.107] by hal.medianet.ie (DIESPAM) with ESMTP id e8FBlAi31108 for ; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 12:47:10 +0100] Received: from it1 (it1 [199.107.2.129]) by liffey.co-operation-ireland.ie (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA09353 for ; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 12:46:16 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000915124717.0081c420@199.107.2.1> X-Sender: relyod@199.107.2.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 12:47:17 +0100 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Mike Doyle Subject: Articles on the "Why" of OpenSource Software Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG About an hour ago I looked for help to find articles on OpenSource for my Boss. Here's a copy of the stuff I sent to him. Eric S. Raymond --------------- http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/ The "Cathedral and the Bazaar" series of essays. Eric Raymond is regarded as a leading thinker in the OpenSource movement, especially by the "Linux" enthusiasts. His opinions on some areas (e.g. gun controll) might be regarded as a little strange by non-US residents. The Homepage of "OpenSource.org" -------------------------------- http://www.opensource.org/ The article "A business person's Case" at: http://www.opensource.org/for-suits.html The article "A techie/hacker's case" at: http://www.opensource.org/for-hackers.html (Note this is the Computer Science meaning of "Hacker" i.e. a good programmer, not the mass-media meaning of hacker i.e. one who breaks into computers) The FreeBSD Website. -------------------- (Co-operation Ireland uses FreeBSD on it's email/database server) The following paragraph is contained on the availablility page of the official FreeBSD website: >Where to get it. > > FreeBSD can be downloaded over the Internet for free, using a variety > of different protocols (FTP, CVS, AFS, and more). If bandwidth is expensive > for you then it can also be purchased on CDROM from a variety of vendors. The following paragraphs are a quote from the "Frequently Asked Questions" about FreeBSD >Q: What are the goals of FreeBSD? > > A: The goals of the FreeBSD Project are to provide software that may be used > for any purpose and without strings attached. Many of us have a significant > investment in the code (and project) and would certainly not mind a little > financial compensation now and then, but we're definitely not prepared to insist > on it. We believe that our first and foremost ``mission'' is to provide code > to any and all comers, and for whatever purpose, so that the code gets the > widest possible use and provides the widest possible benefit. > This is, we believe, one of the most fundamental goals of Free Software and > one that we enthusiastically support. > > That code in our source tree which falls under the GNU General Public License > (GPL) or GNU Library General Public License (LGPL) comes with slightly more > strings attached, though at least on the side of enforced access rather than > the usual opposite. Due to the additional complexities that can evolve in the > commercial use of GPL software, we do, however, endeavor to replace such > software with submissions under the more relaxed BSD copyright whenever possible. > >Q: Why is it called FreeBSD? > >A: > > - It may be used free of charge, even by commercial users. > - Full source for the operating system is freely available, and the > minimum possible restrictions have been placed upon its use, distribution > and incorporation into other work (commercial or non-commercial). > - Anyone who has an improvement and/or bug fix is free to submit their code > and have it added to the source tree (subject to one or two obvious provisos). > > For those of our readers whose first language is not English, it may be worth > pointing out that the word ``free'' is being used in two ways here, one meaning > ``at no cost'', the other meaning ``you can do whatever you like''. Apart from > one or two things you cannot do with the FreeBSD code, for example pretending > you wrote it, you really can do whatever you like with it. An article titled "The Ethics of Free Software" ----------------------------------------------- This is an article written in rebuttal of some of the more "extremist" views held by the Free Software foundation, and also attempting to show some of the percieved fallacies in ESR's writings (link above) http://www.sdmagazine.com/features/2000/03/f4.shtml The "Free Software Foundation" ("FSF") -------------------------------------- The FSF produced a lot of good free software, but they have a decidedly anti-commercial and anti-capitalist agenda. While much free software uses the licence model proposed by the FSF (The "GNU Licence"), many others including the BSD family of products, escew this licence in favour of a more "commercially friendly" licence. The FSF website is at: http://www.gnu.org/ Their "philosophy" page is at: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ <>< ============================================================ ><> Michael Doyle email: relyod@co-operation-ireland.ie Network Administrator personal email: relyod@indigo.ie Co-operation Ireland http://www.co-operation-ireland.ie/ Phone: +353-1-661 0588 Fax: +353-1-661 8456 ********************************************************************* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Sep 15 7:15:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E1C37B424; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 07:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e8FEFWt20678; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 10:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA14624; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 10:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14618; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 10:15:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 10:15:31 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-doc@freebsd.org Subject: BSD Magazine (revisted) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have been out of the BSD loop for about a month because I have no Internet connection at home (damn Starpower, anyway). I was just sifting through a few thousand messages in my inbox here at work and saw the BSD Magazine thread but it seems to have died with no conclusion. Did I just miss the end? In my time off the 'Net, I have been working on a DaemonNews kind of thing to be UnixWeek.com. I have not announced it yet, because a lot of the backend still needs work (articles wanted, anything and everything Unix (yes, even AIX) including humor:). Expect a formal announcement in a few weeks. But what can I do to help out a BSD magazine? Is someone leading a project to make it happen? Where is the sign up sheet? Can I bring chips and dip? Has anyone asked the other BSDs about this? How can I use UnixWeek.com to help? Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Sep 15 13: 5:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5D1337B440; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 13:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@knecht [141.44.21.3]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15035; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 22:05:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id WAA24792; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 22:05:49 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de: jesse set sender to jesse@cs.uni-magdeburg.de using -f To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: OS poll at linuxtoday.com From: Roland Jesse Date: 15 Sep 2000 22:05:49 +0200 Message-ID: <0vr96l1kv6.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 5 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As an answer to Microsoft's current OS poll (which does not include an option to vote for BSD) here is one by linuxtoday.com: . Roland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Sep 15 13:24: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (host76-243.iwbc.net [216.228.76.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD87937B422 for ; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 13:24:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 13a1zL-0002R8-00; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 13:21:35 -0700 Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 13:21:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Roland Jesse Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OS poll at linuxtoday.com In-Reply-To: <0vr96l1kv6.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 15 Sep 2000, Roland Jesse wrote: > As an answer to Microsoft's current OS poll (which does not include an > option to vote for BSD) here is one by linuxtoday.com: > . Where do I find "Microsoft's current OS poll"? Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Sep 15 13:25:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3440337B423 for ; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 13:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@knecht [141.44.21.3]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15277 for ; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 22:25:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id WAA24825; Fri, 15 Sep 2000 22:25:45 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 22:25:44 +0200 From: Roland Jesse To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OS poll at linuxtoday.com Message-ID: <20000915222544.A24821@knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de> References: <0vr96l1kv6.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from reed@reedmedia.net on Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 01:21:35PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > Where do I find "Microsoft's current OS poll"? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Sep 16 12:35:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from magus.users.xmission.com (magus.users.xmission.com [204.228.152.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A56637B422 for ; Sat, 16 Sep 2000 12:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from magus@localhost) by magus.users.xmission.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA13282 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sat, 16 Sep 2000 13:38:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from magus) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 13:38:33 -0600 From: Anthony Chavez To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RWS Message-ID: <20000916133833.H12955@magus.users.xmission.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Looks like RWS is going to be in town (Logan, UT) next Tuesday, advocating GNU/Linux and autographing. I'm half-tempted to go wearing one of my many BSD t-shirts and ask him to autograph my copy of McKusick's book. Unfortunately, I don't have the balls. :-) Anyone got any good ~serious~ questions that I could ask him, or ways to advocate BSD in a ~positive~light~ in such a situation? I don't want to piss on his presentation, but I would like to at least get people interested in BSD as an alternative. Wes, are you going to attend? Could use your presence for morale. :-) -- magus@xmission.com http://wwp.icq.com/17901391 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Klingon is for wimps. http://move.to/ardalambion/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Sep 16 12:38:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6167D37B424 for ; Sat, 16 Sep 2000 12:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E56A71C5C; Sat, 16 Sep 2000 15:38:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 15:38:13 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Anthony Chavez Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RWS Message-ID: <20000916153813.H47559@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <20000916133833.H12955@magus.users.xmission.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000916133833.H12955@magus.users.xmission.com>; from magus@magus.users.xmission.com on Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 01:38:33PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 01:38:33PM -0600, Anthony Chavez wrote: > Looks like RWS is going to be in town (Logan, UT) next Tuesday, > advocating GNU/Linux and autographing. I'm half-tempted to go wearing > one of my many BSD t-shirts and ask him to autograph my copy of > McKusick's book. Unfortunately, I don't have the balls. :-) RMS, you mean? > Anyone got any good ~serious~ questions that I could ask him, or ways to > advocate BSD in a ~positive~light~ in such a situation? I don't want to > piss on his presentation, but I would like to at least get people > interested in BSD as an alternative. I'd ask him what he thinks of the BSD license now that the advertising clause has been removed. If he starts to be an ass remind him that it's now "more free" then the GPL, I'm sure that would push a button or two. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect, BOFH / Chimes, Inc. billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Sep 16 12:58: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from magus.users.xmission.com (magus.users.xmission.com [204.228.152.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 397CA37B422 for ; Sat, 16 Sep 2000 12:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from magus@localhost) by magus.users.xmission.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA13374 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sat, 16 Sep 2000 14:00:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from magus) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 13:58:40 -0600 From: Anthony Chavez To: Bill Fumerola Subject: Re: RWS Message-ID: <20000916135840.I12955@magus.users.xmission.com> References: <20000916133833.H12955@magus.users.xmission.com> <20000916153813.H47559@jade.chc-chimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000916153813.H47559@jade.chc-chimes.com>; from billf@chimesnet.com on Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:38:13PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:38:13PM -0400, Bill Fumerola wrote: > RMS, you mean? *blush* Yeah. :-) > I'd ask him what he thinks of the BSD license now that the advertising clause > has been removed. > > If he starts to be an ass remind him that it's now "more free" then the GPL, > I'm sure that would push a button or two. I will say anything you want me to once I can back it all up with facts. I need ammo and I need it fast. But then, I'm not going so I can start a fight. I just want to sway as many people that I can to BSD. -- magus@xmission.com http://wwp.icq.com/17901391 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Linux is for Microsoft haters. BSD is for Unix lovers. http://www.freebsd.org/ http://www.openbsd.org/ http://www.netbsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Sep 16 13:35: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hecky.it.northwestern.edu (hecky.acns.nwu.edu [129.105.16.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD9F337B423 for ; Sat, 16 Sep 2000 13:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by hecky.it.northwestern.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20694; Sat, 16 Sep 2000 15:35:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from confusion.net (dhcp089155.res-hall.nwu.edu [199.74.89.155]) by hecky.acns.nwu.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma020673; Sat, 16 Sep 00 15:34:54 -0500 Message-ID: <39C3D95C.4F5F6343@confusion.net> Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 15:34:36 -0500 From: Laurence Berland X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Anthony Chavez , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RWS References: <20000916133833.H12955@magus.users.xmission.com> <20000916153813.H47559@jade.chc-chimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Fumerola wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 01:38:33PM -0600, Anthony Chavez wrote: > > Looks like RWS is going to be in town (Logan, UT) next Tuesday, > > advocating GNU/Linux and autographing. I'm half-tempted to go wearing > > one of my many BSD t-shirts and ask him to autograph my copy of > > McKusick's book. Unfortunately, I don't have the balls. :-) > > RMS, you mean? > > > Anyone got any good ~serious~ questions that I could ask him, or ways to > > advocate BSD in a ~positive~light~ in such a situation? I don't want to > > piss on his presentation, but I would like to at least get people > > interested in BSD as an alternative. > > I'd ask him what he thinks of the BSD license now that the advertising clause > has been removed. He's pretty much covered that on the fsf website, though he seems to hold an arbitrary grudge about calling it the bsd license. I'd ask him if he thinks we should call FreeBSD GNU/FreeBSD since he seems to think it contains a great deal of gpl stuff. Also, you could ask him to name a single instance where the additional freedom afforded by the BSD licenses relative to the GPL has hurt the Open Source/Free Software community, and then ask how many times companies might have passed up even starting work on something because of the legal issues surrounding GPL... > > If he starts to be an ass remind him that it's now "more free" then the GPL, > I'm sure that would push a button or two. > > -- > Bill Fumerola - Network Architect, BOFH / Chimes, Inc. > billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Laurence Berland Intern, Flooz.com Northwestern '04 stuyman@confusion.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Sep 16 17:49:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from envy.geekhouse.net (envy.geekhouse.net [64.81.6.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFF0337B422 for ; Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jim@localhost) by envy.geekhouse.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e8H0nXT81732; Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:49:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jim) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:49:32 -0700 From: Jim Mock To: Anthony Chavez Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RWS Message-ID: <20000916174932.A81641@envy.geekhouse.net> Reply-To: jim@lust.geekhouse.net References: <20000916133833.H12955@magus.users.xmission.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000916133833.H12955@magus.users.xmission.com>; from magus@magus.users.xmission.com on Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 01:38:33PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 at 13:38:33 -0600, Anthony Chavez wrote: > Looks like RWS is going to be in town (Logan, UT) next Tuesday, > advocating GNU/Linux and autographing. I'm half-tempted to go > wearing one of my many BSD t-shirts and ask him to autograph my copy > of McKusick's book. Unfortunately, I don't have the balls. :-) I'm sure you mean RMS :-) > Anyone got any good ~serious~ questions that I could ask him, or ways > to advocate BSD in a ~positive~light~ in such a situation? I don't > want to piss on his presentation, but I would like to at least get > people interested in BSD as an alternative. Ask him why www.stallman.org runs on FreeBSD ;-) That provide some interesting conversation. See http://www.netcraft.com/whats/?host=www.stallman.org for the facts. - jim -- jim mock work: jim@osd.bsdi.com | jim@FreeBSD.org http://soupnazi.org/ BSDi Open Source Div | http://bsdi.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Sep 16 18: 6:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C1FC37B422 for ; Sat, 16 Sep 2000 18:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e8H16Vu94469; Sun, 17 Sep 2000 10:36:31 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 10:36:31 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jim Mock Cc: Anthony Chavez , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: rms runs FreeBSD? (was: RWS) Message-ID: <20000917103631.D42114@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20000916133833.H12955@magus.users.xmission.com> <20000916174932.A81641@envy.geekhouse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000916174932.A81641@envy.geekhouse.net>; from jim@lust.geekhouse.net on Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:49:32PM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Saturday, 16 September 2000 at 17:49:32 -0700, Jim Mock wrote: > On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 at 13:38:33 -0600, Anthony Chavez wrote: >> Looks like RWS is going to be in town (Logan, UT) next Tuesday, >> advocating GNU/Linux and autographing. I'm half-tempted to go >> wearing one of my many BSD t-shirts and ask him to autograph my copy >> of McKusick's book. Unfortunately, I don't have the balls. :-) > > I'm sure you mean RMS :-) I think he would probably autograph it for you, along with some comment that you'd rather not have in that book. >> Anyone got any good ~serious~ questions that I could ask him, or ways >> to advocate BSD in a ~positive~light~ in such a situation? I don't >> want to piss on his presentation, but I would like to at least get >> people interested in BSD as an alternative. > > Ask him why www.stallman.org runs on FreeBSD ;-) That provide some > interesting conversation. > > See http://www.netcraft.com/whats/?host=www.stallman.org for the facts. www.stallman.org is running Apache/1.3.6 (Unix) on FreeBSD Fascinating. Yes, I'd like to hear his response to that question, too. My rms story: at the AUUG winter conference in September 1998, I went to a Stallman Emacs tutorial. He was late (which is normal enough; expect him to be late at your event as well), and while we were waiting I went to my hotel room to get my laptop. When I came down I found Stallman standing in the empty lobby, looking lost. I took him to the tutorial, where he unpacked his old, mouldy laptop out of an even older, mouldy plastic bag, and discovered he had left the power supply behind. He ended up using my laptop, running (of course) FreeBSD. At the time he was quite complimentary about FreeBSD, saying that it was, after all, free software, and that it was just a pity about that dreadful license. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Sep 16 18:38:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF6937B424 for ; Sat, 16 Sep 2000 18:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA06741; Sat, 16 Sep 2000 21:36:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 21:36:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Anthony Chavez , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RWS In-Reply-To: <20000916153813.H47559@jade.chc-chimes.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 16 Sep 2000, Bill Fumerola wrote: > > Anyone got any good ~serious~ questions that I could ask him, or ways to > > advocate BSD in a ~positive~light~ in such a situation? I don't want to > > piss on his presentation, but I would like to at least get people > > interested in BSD as an alternative. > > I'd ask him what he thinks of the BSD license now that the advertising clause > has been removed. Hmm. The www.gnu.org page still has an essay on why the advertising clause is bad, and how until it is removed, the BSD license is not recommended. Given that the advertising clause was removed several months ago by UC Berkeley, they really need to update their page, be it to put it more in line with the current situation, or even declare victory. In any case, much of the criticism doesn't apply to the existing code base due to the licensing change, nor new code submitted under our normal two-clause license. Robert N M Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Sep 16 18:48:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99D4937B422; Sat, 16 Sep 2000 18:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA06854; Sat, 16 Sep 2000 21:48:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 21:48:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Marc Veldman Cc: "Ludington, Jacob" , "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: BSD Magazine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Marc Veldman wrote: > could somebody point out the advantages of a > BSD-specific magazine ? I want something on paper. While e-mail and the web are cool, they are far from persistent. I can't read a file written ten years ago in the standard word processing tool of the day. Any articles I read and enjoyed on any commercial or main-stream electronic services are now long gone. I have now assurance that www.daemonnews.org is going to work in ten years time when I want to reference a technical article there in a paper I write. And printers don't cut it -- I have enough leaf-litter of unsorted and un-indexed papers lying around already. I'd happily pay the going rate for magazines to get a nicely bound twice to three times as thick Daemon News. At one point, Jordan was spitting out FreeBSD newsletters on paper -- throw that stuff in also, maybe reviews of recent major commits on various platform source trees (sort of like the new stuff page on the NetBSD web site) so people (users, developers) from various projects can keep up-to-date. Robert N M Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message