From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Mar 26 17:41:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6886A37BA4C for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 17:41:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA28852 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 03:44:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id DAA01648 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 03:41:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.butya.kz (butya-gw.butya.kz [212.154.129.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FCE237B6DC for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 17:39:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bp@butya.kz) Received: from bp (helo=localhost) by relay.butya.kz with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 12ZOVN-000Ci8-00; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:39:45 +0700 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:39:45 +0700 (ALMST) From: Boris Popov To: Chris Costello Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev In-Reply-To: <20000317230632.I24374@holly.calldei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, Chris Costello wrote: > Now that I've committed a change which fixes that pesky > lstat() commit in fdesc, I'd like to suggest that it replace the > existing /dev/fd devices and /dev/std{err,in,out}. I've already > got such a setup running on a test box: While this may help in the non-devfs case it is not valid for devfs, because devfs is able to handle such things natively and union mount is just an additional overload. -- Boris Popov To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Mar 27 16:11:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 901D137B899 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:11:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA16017 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 02:14:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id CAA03839 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 02:11:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from holly.calldei.com (adsl-208-191-146-189.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [208.191.146.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCDEA37BBAC for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:10:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@holly.calldei.com) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA39451; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:09:57 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from chris) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:09:56 -0600 From: Chris Costello To: Boris Popov Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev Message-ID: <20000327180956.L18325@holly.calldei.com> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <20000317230632.I24374@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday, March 27, 2000, Boris Popov wrote: > While this may help in the non-devfs case it is not valid for > devfs, because devfs is able to handle such things natively and union > mount is just an additional overload. At its current pace, however, devfs will be complete and ready for production roughly 30 minutes after the Sun explodes. -- |Chris Costello |Why do we want intelligent terminals when there are so many stupid users? `------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Mar 27 17:44:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E2FA37B8AC for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:44:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA19288 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 03:46:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id DAA03999 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 03:43:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44BA837B596 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:43:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29523; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:43:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:43:00 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: Chris Costello Cc: Boris Popov , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev In-Reply-To: <20000327180956.L18325@holly.calldei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Chris Costello wrote: > On Monday, March 27, 2000, Boris Popov wrote: > > While this may help in the non-devfs case it is not valid for > > devfs, because devfs is able to handle such things natively and union > > mount is just an additional overload. > > At its current pace, however, devfs will be complete and ready > for production roughly 30 minutes after the Sun explodes. And how will that affect the merger? -- "So, the cows were part of a dream that dreamed itself into existence? Is that possible?" asked the student incredulously. The master simply replied, "Mu." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Mar 27 19:20:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A1A37B99A for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:20:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA24284 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 05:23:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id FAA04122 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 05:20:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.butya.kz (butya-gw.butya.kz [212.154.129.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7127837B7F4 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:19:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bp@butya.kz) Received: from bp (helo=localhost) by relay.butya.kz with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 12ZmXi-000FMf-00; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:19:46 +0700 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:19:46 +0700 (ALMST) From: Boris Popov To: Chris Costello Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev In-Reply-To: <20000327180956.L18325@holly.calldei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Chris Costello wrote: > On Monday, March 27, 2000, Boris Popov wrote: > > While this may help in the non-devfs case it is not valid for > > devfs, because devfs is able to handle such things natively and union > > mount is just an additional overload. > > At its current pace, however, devfs will be complete and ready > for production roughly 30 minutes after the Sun explodes. I've done some work to improve devfs code, right now all my spare time dedicated to smbfs and I'll return to devfs after initial release of smbfs. -- Boris Popov To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Mar 28 4:28:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E553E37BE7E for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:28:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00436 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:31:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA04930 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:28:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E5B37BE3C for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:28:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA24920; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:28:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: chris@calldei.com Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev References: <20000317230632.I24374@holly.calldei.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Mar 2000 14:28:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: Chris Costello's message of "Fri, 17 Mar 2000 23:06:32 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Costello writes: > Now that I've committed a change which fixes that pesky > lstat() commit in fdesc, I'd like to suggest that it replace the > existing /dev/fd devices and /dev/std{err,in,out}. I've already > got such a setup running on a test box: I tried this and got some weird problems - some programs seemed to have trouble accessing other device nodes in /dev (non-fdesc ones). Not much of an error report, I know, but it's been a rough week and I didn't bother to write anything down. The problems went away when I unmounted the fdesc file system. Anyway, since /dev/std* never change, how about having fdesc *only* handle the /dev/fd/* stuff, so you can (non-union) mount it on /dev/fd and let /dev/std* be either symlinks to /dev/fd/[012] or plain old static device nodes like they're now? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Mar 28 4:32: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70DA737BA5B for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:31:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00558 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:35:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA04947 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:31:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (wandering-wizard.cybercity.dk [212.242.43.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECC5F37B596 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:31:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost.freebsd.dk [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01396; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:31:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chris@calldei.com, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev In-reply-to: Your message of "28 Mar 2000 14:28:33 +0200." Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:31:20 +0200 Message-ID: <1394.954246680@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: >Anyway, since /dev/std* never change, how about having fdesc *only* >handle the /dev/fd/* stuff, so you can (non-union) mount it on /dev/fd >and let /dev/std* be either symlinks to /dev/fd/[012] or plain old >static device nodes like they're now? Symlinks have my vote. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Mar 28 4:39: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A22F37B6BA for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:39:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00770 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:42:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA04965 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:39:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B306B37B596 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:38:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA24969; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:38:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: chris@calldei.com, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev References: <1394.954246680@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Mar 2000 14:38:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: Poul-Henning Kamp's message of "Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:31:20 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > In message , Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > Anyway, since /dev/std* never change, how about having fdesc *only* > > handle the /dev/fd/* stuff, so you can (non-union) mount it on /dev/fd > > and let /dev/std* be either symlinks to /dev/fd/[012] or plain old > > static device nodes like they're now? > Symlinks have my vote. The downside is they'll be broken if fdesc isn't mounted... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Mar 28 4:44:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAAE937BA59 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:44:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00905 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:47:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA05002 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:44:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (wandering-wizard.cybercity.dk [212.242.43.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B24F37BE26 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:42:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost.freebsd.dk [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01496; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:41:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chris@calldei.com, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev In-reply-to: Your message of "28 Mar 2000 14:38:38 +0200." Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:41:56 +0200 Message-ID: <1494.954247316@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: >Poul-Henning Kamp writes: >> In message , Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: >> > Anyway, since /dev/std* never change, how about having fdesc *only* >> > handle the /dev/fd/* stuff, so you can (non-union) mount it on /dev/fd >> > and let /dev/std* be either symlinks to /dev/fd/[012] or plain old >> > static device nodes like they're now? >> Symlinks have my vote. > >The downside is they'll be broken if fdesc isn't mounted... Well, they would too if fdesc implemented them, wouldn't they ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Mar 28 4:45:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CF4B37BA5B for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:45:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00941 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:48:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA05019 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:45:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3032D37B6BA for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:43:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA25008; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:43:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: chris@calldei.com, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev References: <1494.954247316@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Mar 2000 14:43:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: Poul-Henning Kamp's message of "Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:41:56 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > In message , Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > > > Symlinks have my vote. > > The downside is they'll be broken if fdesc isn't mounted... > Well, they would too if fdesc implemented them, wouldn't they ? Right. I need some caffeine. Or beer. Or something. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Mar 28 13:52:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D291A37BEA2 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:52:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22202 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:55:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA05739 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:51:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from holly.calldei.com (adsl-208-191-146-189.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [208.191.146.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 797F537BFBB for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:51:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@holly.calldei.com) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA42265; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:51:34 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from chris) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:51:34 -0600 From: Chris Costello To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev Message-ID: <20000328155134.P18325@holly.calldei.com> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <20000317230632.I24374@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, March 28, 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > I tried this and got some weird problems - some programs seemed to > have trouble accessing other device nodes in /dev (non-fdesc ones). > Not much of an error report, I know, but it's been a rough week and I > didn't bother to write anything down. The problems went away when I > unmounted the fdesc file system. I'm working on fdesc now. It's riddled with bugs at this point. > Anyway, since /dev/std* never change, how about having fdesc *only* > handle the /dev/fd/* stuff, so you can (non-union) mount it on /dev/fd > and let /dev/std* be either symlinks to /dev/fd/[012] or plain old > static device nodes like they're now? I agree with symlinks as well. This would make the fdesc code _considerably_ simpler and a lot more elegant than it is now, since it would not need to place anything (tty, stderr, stdin, stdout) in /dev. -- |Chris Costello |My Go this amn keyboar oesn't have any 's. `--------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Mar 29 5: 6:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04E8B37C096 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:06:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA17605 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:09:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA07308 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:06:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7614C37BFDC for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:06:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA28457; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:05:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:05:39 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , chris@calldei.com, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 28 Mar 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > > In message , Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > > Anyway, since /dev/std* never change, how about having fdesc *only* > > > handle the /dev/fd/* stuff, so you can (non-union) mount it on /dev/fd > > > and let /dev/std* be either symlinks to /dev/fd/[012] or plain old > > > static device nodes like they're now? > > Symlinks have my vote. > > The downside is they'll be broken if fdesc isn't mounted... I consider this to be a relatively serious impediment to a number of the ``make it a file system'' solutions--they aren't mounted when you boot to single user mode, and if you're booting to single user mode due to some sort of failure, you may not be able to mount them during the recovery. Now, presumably few tools depend on /dev/fd/ (?), but tools relying on /dev/std{in,out,err} are more likely. Similarly, a strong argument for a sysctl management interface is that mounting a /kernfs is much less likely to succeed in the event of failure :-). Not having to mount procfs to get accurate information about processes is also useful. In the jail case, it would be nice to minimize the number of mountpoints per-jail (if only to maintain the usefulness of using df or mount to inspect the current mount configuration :-). The upgrade case is also useful to consider--there have been a number of times where I have upgraded my kernel, but not my /modules. This is easy to do as the building of /modules is tied to world, not kernel building (?). However, especially with modules like nfs.ko, it's very easy to end up with a panic if the modules and the kernel are out of synch. Being unable to mount /dev/fd or /dev due to an out-of-synch kernel makes the whole system more fragile and less tolerant of user misbehavior (accidental, due to another failure, or intentional). At the very least, this would be a strong argument for placing the requisite synthetic file systems in the kernel itself, not in modules. Just some thoughts.. Robert N M Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Mar 29 5:19:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD80537B615 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:19:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA18342 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:22:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA07392 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:19:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D2FA37B5D5 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:18:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA89146; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:18:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200003291318.IAA89146@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:18:42 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, chris@calldei.com, Poul-Henning Kamp , Dag-Erling Smorgrav Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 29-Mar-00 Robert Watson wrote: > On 28 Mar 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >> Poul-Henning Kamp writes: >> > In message , Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: >> > > Anyway, since /dev/std* never change, how about having fdesc *only* >> > > handle the /dev/fd/* stuff, so you can (non-union) mount it on /dev/fd >> > > and let /dev/std* be either symlinks to /dev/fd/[012] or plain old >> > > static device nodes like they're now? >> > Symlinks have my vote. >> >> The downside is they'll be broken if fdesc isn't mounted... > > I consider this to be a relatively serious impediment to a number of the > ``make it a file system'' solutions--they aren't mounted when you boot to > single user mode, and if you're booting to single user mode due to some > sort of failure, you may not be able to mount them during the recovery. Note that devfs is even more strongly susceptible to these same problems. If you are already using devfs, then I don't think you are incurring that much extra of a problem. Since the general feeling I've gotten is that we do want to move towards using devfs in the future, then solving this problem the right way will probably be a good way. Statically compiling devfs and fdescfs into the kernel might be one solution. When we do get devfs working, it will probably replace the existing static /dev if my understanding is correct, in which case every kernel will need devfs and fdescfs anyways, so statically compiling them in shouldn't be that much of a problem. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Mar 29 10:54:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56E4F37B86E for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:54:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA27079 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:57:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA07992 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:54:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0B137BE34 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:50:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA25562; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:50:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA8Eaq1X; Wed Mar 29 11:49:51 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA22495; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:50:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003291850.LAA22495@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:50:19 +0000 (GMT) Cc: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp), chris@calldei.com, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Mar 28, 2000 02:38:38 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > In message , Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > > Anyway, since /dev/std* never change, how about having fdesc *only* > > > handle the /dev/fd/* stuff, so you can (non-union) mount it on /dev/fd > > > and let /dev/std* be either symlinks to /dev/fd/[012] or plain old > > > static device nodes like they're now? > > Symlinks have my vote. > > The downside is they'll be broken if fdesc isn't mounted... The other downside is that, unlike devfs contents, they'll get just as stale just as fast as /dev gets out of date with the currently running kernel and/or MAKEDEV. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Mar 29 22:50:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D933437B7A2 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:50:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17465 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:53:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA09209 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:50:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from holly.calldei.com (adsl-208-191-146-189.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [208.191.146.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67DCF37B6C6 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:49:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@holly.calldei.com) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA47318 for freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:49:19 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from chris) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:49:18 -0600 From: Chris Costello To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Fdesc patch update: Now for mounting specifically on /dev/fd Message-ID: <20000330004918.E44541@holly.calldei.com> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have updated the patches to accomplish the following: - Remove the stdin, stdout, stderr and tty nodes. - Make the `fd' directory the root directory. - Remove the read, write, ioctl, and readlink vop_t functions because these don't need handling anymore (all nodes are Fdesc nodes). - Remove all of the fd types except Froot and Fdesc. The others (Flink and Fctty) are no longer needed, and everything related to them. - More properly (but not completely properly at this point) handle `stat' for sockets and pipes. - Generally clean up the code and make it more readable. The current patch is available at http://www.FreeBSD.org/~chris/fdesc.patch (I believe 665 lines is a little too long for the patch to be attached to this email message). -- |Chris Costello |Years of development: We finally got one to work. `------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Mar 31 10:34:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D71637BD1D for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:34:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA00480 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 20:37:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA12717 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 20:34:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.infolibria.com (mail.infolibria.com [199.103.137.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3080F37BDE7 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:32:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from loverso@infolibria.com) Received: from infolibria.com (border [199.103.137.193]) by mail.infolibria.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6CFDDDB83 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:33:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38E4EFD3.A28C428B@infolibria.com> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:34:59 -0500 From: John LoVerso Organization: InfoLibria X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/i386/conf files.i386 src/sys/kern kern_fork.c src/sys/libkern arc4random.c src/sys/sys libkern.h References: <89015.943945313@zippy.cdrom.com> <99Dec1.091202est.40330@border.alcanet.com.au> <19991205121643.A69177@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [I'm replying to old mail, but I thought I'd add a valid point] > On Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 09:19:18AM +1100, Peter Jeremy wrote: > Digital UNIX uses something like random PID generation and I The PID allocation in Digital UNIX derives from OSF/1, and isn't random persay. Instead, the PID assigned is based upon a the slot in the process table. The reason for the change was to avoid taking an additional lock when allocating a PID on a multiprocessor. This is described in the original OSF/1 paper at USENIX. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message