From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 9 1: 0:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA1FE37B5C9 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 01:00:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10332 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:04:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA02159 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:00:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A610F37B73C; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 01:00:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01696; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 02:59:58 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 02:59:57 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Bob Bishop Cc: obrien@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000409025957.A26049@futuresouth.com> References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <4.3.1.2.20000407094800.00ac2970@gid.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000407094800.00ac2970@gid.co.uk> X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 10:00:12AM +0100, a little birdie told me that Bob Bishop remarked > > On principle, please don't do it. I'd go so far as to vote for having > /bin/sh as root's default shell. If people want to use whacky shells and > set fire to their ass they are free to do so, but I seriously doubt the > wisdom of encouraging them. Hm. Coincidentally, that's just what I do. I just never use it: [2:05:47] mortis:~ (ttyp3):{122}% head -2 /etc/passwd root:*:0:0:The Devil Himself:/root:/bin/sh toor:*:0:0:The Devil Backwards:/root:/bin/tcsh And I have su aliased to 'su toor' in my .tcshrc. Oh, and BTW: (ttyp3):{124}% ll /bin/csh /bin/tcsh /usr/local/bin/tcsh -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 282032 Mar 14 03:56 /bin/csh* -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 468768 May 11 1999 /bin/tcsh* -r-xr-xr-x 1 bin bin 254536 May 11 1999 /usr/local/bin/tcsh* Not all that much bigger at all... -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 9 6:25:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E50037B761 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 06:25:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11850 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:28:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA02653 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:24:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp06.wxs.nl (smtp06.wxs.nl [195.121.6.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95AE537B96A; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 05:50:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (ipc379e0ab.dial.wxs.nl [195.121.224.171]) by smtp06.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 4.05) with ESMTP id FSR2BS01.62O; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:50:16 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA51733; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:50:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:50:13 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Bob Bishop Cc: obrien@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000409145013.O1996@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <4.3.1.2.20000407094800.00ac2970@gid.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000407094800.00ac2970@gid.co.uk>; from rb@gid.co.uk on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 10:00:12AM +0100 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [20000407 12:05], Bob Bishop (rb@gid.co.uk) wrote: > >At 13:49 06/04/00 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: >>I'm going to be importing tcsh into src/contrib/ and replacing /bin/csh >>with tcsh. [etc] > >On principle, please don't do it. I'd go so far as to vote for having >/bin/sh as root's default shell. If people want to use whacky shells and >set fire to their ass they are free to do so, but I seriously doubt the >wisdom of encouraging them. I agree with your statement. I can see no technical reason to support either tcsh or csh as root's shell. To substantiate: - I have gone through our system supplied scripts, and as far as I was able to find, none of them were dependant on csh. Even if csh scripts were present they should be rewritten for /bin/sh, in order to be as consistent as possible with the rest of the system. - Every argument in favor of keeping csh either has seemed to be a personal subjective reason or a dubious filesize argument. To summarise some things that passed our eyes in the thread: - Embedded Systems. Effectively, embedded systems are pretty customised because they need to be small in size as well as be functional. This idea would support the argument of retiring csh to the ports system and just have sh as the only shell in the base system. That opens the way for easily customising the sources by using the ports or just using /bin/sh since it is fast, small and reliable. - Usefulness. Which obviously demands an explanation of ``useful''. The word and its meaning in the context will probably always be subjective as no-one can agree on a common set of ``usefulness''. If you look at the common case in which root's shell would be used it would be for emergency cases 99% of the time. The other 1% of the time one would do best to use su -m to get root privileges and keep one's shell along with all the features one needs. - The csh UI. If Linux users cannot comprehend the reasons why our default shell(s) do not have featurism bloat, it should not be a goal in itself to replace the shell. This merely indicates that the way the FreeBSD system is set up is substantially different from the point of view Linux users have with regards to complete systems. - Hype. With Linux being the next hot thing out there, are we going to compete with it in terms of creeping featurism and bloat? FreeBSD should be chosen because people know it is technically correct, both internally as well as in its provisional infrastructure. Not because we sport the latest featurerich version of either csh/tcsh/ksh/zsh/bash for our root user. And our provisional infrastructure, e.g. ports, allows for easy installing of the shell someone wants. - Old habits. Being used to a certain set-up and configuration is not a reason that a certain change should be put off. It may even be argued that doing so is actually negative on new developments. Changing root's default shell to sh (just as the default for normal users) decreases maintenance time on our default profile/login/shell skeleton files, since we can simply take a normal user's skeleton files and adjust them. Let the choice of a shell be a configuration issue for the user. The arguments in favour of replacing csh with tcsh are IMHO not relevant. Replacing it with /bin/sh seems to make a lot more sense. I refer to Nate's statement that FreeBSD's default install is a default, how spartan and sober it may be, which people can adore with pretty, shiny things by themselves. To quote Nate on that (one of the first mails in the thread): ``2) FreeBSD's base installation is *NOT* intended for you to have a completely/fully functional workstaion. That's what the ports are for. It's meant to be the most basic installation, and if you need more than the basics, install ports.'' Note that Nate refers to completely/fully functional as the functionality which a fully customised environment provides to its user, not the functionality of the operating system. If people are so anxious to have their $FAVOURITE_SHELL for root, what is stopping them from installing it from ports? -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project In every stone sleeps a crystal... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 9 6:57:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7595D37B6E9 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 06:55:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11909 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:39:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA02713 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:35:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82CAC37BD5E; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 06:20:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA84579; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:17:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Cc: obrien@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062121.PAA24162@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Apr 2000 15:17:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: Nate Williams's message of "Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:21:07 -0600 (MDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nate Williams writes: > > I'm going to be importing tcsh into src/contrib/ and replacing /bin/csh > > with tcsh. > While I use tcsh, and it's the very first package I install after I > build a new system, I disagree with this move. > [...] Please consider the fact that csh is nearly unusable for anything more elaborate than 'exec /bin/sh -E'. No command-line editing, only very basic command history... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 9 7:12:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF9C637BD85 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 07:12:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA12066 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:05:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA02771 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:01:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F86A37B807 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 06:52:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA84671; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:51:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: JFS From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Apr 2000 15:51:38 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG IBM is porting JFS to Linux under GPL. Are there any plans to port it to FreeBSD? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 9 8: 7:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D46A37B68E for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 08:06:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12378 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:09:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA02968 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:05:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88E1A37B6B9; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 07:37:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA84797; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:36:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Bob Bishop , obrien@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <4.3.1.2.20000407094800.00ac2970@gid.co.uk> <20000409145013.O1996@daemon.ninth-circle.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Apr 2000 16:36:42 +0200 In-Reply-To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai's message of "Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:50:13 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai writes: > I can see no technical reason to support either tcsh or csh as root's > shell. > > To substantiate: > > - I have gone through our system supplied scripts, and as far as I was > able to find, none of them were dependant on csh. Even if csh scripts > were present they should be rewritten for /bin/sh, in order to be as > consistent as possible with the rest of the system. My only comment to anyone who would even consider using csh for anything more elaborate than 'exec /bin/sh -E', particularly - god forbid! - for scripting, is: DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 9 9:47:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A62D37C08D for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:47:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12963 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:50:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA03124 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 18:47:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764E037B609; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:27:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rwatson@freebsd.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA06961; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:26:28 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rwatson@freebsd.org) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:26:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: TrustedBSD Discussion List To: TrustedBSD Announcements List Subject: Announcement: TrustedBSD Extensions Project Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm happy to announce the TrustedBSD Project, a set of trusted operating system extensions for the FreeBSD operating system. TrustedBSD consists of a set of kernel and user-land extensions targeting the Orange Book B1 evaluation criteria. Development is currently underway, and most of the code is destined to go back into the base FreeBSD operating system; however, as some components are both extensive and intrusive, the TrustedBSD project provides a forum for discussion, design, and development in the interim. Trusted operating systems have a variety of requirements above and beyond the normal operating system feature set, including the requirement that they be extensively documented. To whet your appetite, the following features are among those under development: o Extensible and audited authorization framework for integrating third-party authorization modules, including general-purpose subject and object labeling and centralized policy management. o Fine-grained capabilities for system functions so as to implement least- privilege and reduce the risks of compromise. o Mandatory access control for privacy and integrity, allowing FreeBSD to be used in environments hosting mutually suspicious parties and multi-level security models. o Access control lists for the file system and other kernel resources allowing fine-grained and manageable discretionary access control o Event auditing support and single-host modular IDS system to monitor security events and notify administrators in the event of irregularities The TrustedBSD extensions will be made available under a two-clause BSD-style license, which permits integration of the extensions into projects under almost any licensing model, both free and commercial. A web site is now online to act as a central source of information about the project, and as a distribution point for code not yet committed to the FreeBSD source repository. http://www.trustedbsd.org/ There are also two mailing lists, trustedbsd-discuss and trustedbsd-announce; more mailing lists will be created as necessary. To subscribe to these mailing lists, please send email to: majordomo@trustedbsd.org Further information is available on the web site. Robert N M Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 9 10:38:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D09B37B52F for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:38:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13334 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:42:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA03208 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:38:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B7CC37B54C for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:38:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo [192.67.166.79]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17952; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:38:00 -0700 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:38:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: JFS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It isn't the same JFS as that which is in AIX. It's the OS/2 JFS, which is, as far as I know, not the same at all. On 9 Apr 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > IBM is porting JFS to Linux under GPL. Are there any plans to port it > to FreeBSD? > > > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 9 12:26: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 481B237B778 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:25:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA13996 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:29:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA03598 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:25:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mailtoaster2.pipeline.ch (mailtoaster2.pipeline.ch [62.48.0.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A27537B708 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:25:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oppermann@pipeline.ch) Received: (qmail 45186 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2000 19:26:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pipeline.ch) ([62.48.0.53]) (envelope-sender ) by mailtoaster2.pipeline.ch (qmail-ldap-1.03) with RC4-MD5 encrypted SMTP for ; 9 Apr 2000 19:26:00 -0000 Message-ID: <38F0D94A.D30F8D6@pipeline.ch> Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 21:26:02 +0200 From: Andre Oppermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Bob Bishop , obrien@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <4.3.1.2.20000407094800.00ac2970@gid.co.uk> <20000409145013.O1996@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > -On [20000407 12:05], Bob Bishop (rb@gid.co.uk) wrote: > > > >At 13:49 06/04/00 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > >>I'm going to be importing tcsh into src/contrib/ and replacing /bin/csh > >>with tcsh. [etc] > > > >On principle, please don't do it. I'd go so far as to vote for having > >/bin/sh as root's default shell. If people want to use whacky shells and > >set fire to their ass they are free to do so, but I seriously doubt the > >wisdom of encouraging them. > > I agree with your statement. -snip- > To substantiate: -snip- > - Embedded Systems. > Effectively, embedded systems are pretty customised because > they need to be small in size as well as be functional. This > idea would support the argument of retiring csh to the ports > system and just have sh as the only shell in the base system. > That opens the way for easily customising the sources by using > the ports or just using /bin/sh since it is fast, small and > reliable. I've seen this argument more than one time in this discussion but it is void. Nobody is going to install the base FreeBSD distribution on an embedded system. This mean he/she has to walk through the tree anyway to cut out all unneeded binaries (ie. atm*, isdn*, etc.). tcsh is just one more to be cut out in this case. PS: My vote is yes on importing tcsh. -- Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 9 14:19:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43B7E37B620 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:19:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA14599 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 23:22:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA03873 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 23:19:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37A3837B643 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:18:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@14-076.006.popsite.net [216.126.137.76]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA47335; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:18:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA21376; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:18:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:18:53 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: No nawk ?? Message-ID: <20000409141853.C1252@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <200004081636.SAA07027@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <38EF78E3.B86EFC11@asme.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38EF78E3.B86EFC11@asme.org>; from giffunip@asme.org on Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 01:22:27PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 01:22:27PM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > Check out mawk; it's faster and is fully POSIX. I agree that nawk is > limited WRT the other awks, but I prefer it for the base system due to > the history it has and because it's smaller and faster than gawk. GNU > awk is the worst of the three options (many bugs, big and slow). If I'm unable to get nawk to work as our base awk, switching to mawk (for the reasons above) is my other plan [sometime in the future of course]. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 10 1:19:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11B4C37B507 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:19:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25626 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:18:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA04743 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:18:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.1.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E820137B6A7 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:16:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 12eZNH-0007Ta-00 for arch@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:16:47 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 09 Apr 2000 14:50:13 +0200." <20000409145013.O1996@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:16:47 +0200 Message-ID: <28741.955354607@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 09 Apr 2000 14:50:13 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > I can see no technical reason to support either tcsh or csh as root's > shell. I thought Jeroen's well-motivated message was a breath of fresh air in this putrid thread. Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 10 4:56: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B7937B76D for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 04:56:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28876 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:56:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA04981 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:56:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C99A237B8FE for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 04:55:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost.freebsd.dk [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23548 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:55:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: BUF/BIO roadmap. From: Poul-Henning Kamp Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:55:27 +0200 Message-ID: <23546.955367727@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Core asked me to produce a short document about what I am trying to do with the struct buf / struct bio and all that jazz. This paper can be found here: http://phk.freebsd.dk/Bio/bio.ps There are two parts to it: 1. The argumentation for splitting struct bio out from struct buf 2. A road map for the stackable BIO system. Barring any competent objections, the patch still up for review at http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc will be committed and work progress according to the roadmap. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 10 7:51:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75DC137BA8B for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 07:45:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02164 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:45:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA05173 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:45:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F030237B66D; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 07:44:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustidentd@obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01141; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:44:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38F1E8E5.932C9E26@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:44:53 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andre Oppermann Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Bob Bishop , obrien@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <4.3.1.2.20000407094800.00ac2970@gid.co.uk> <20000409145013.O1996@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <38F0D94A.D30F8D6@pipeline.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Andre Oppermann wrote: > > Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > > > -On [20000407 12:05], Bob Bishop (rb@gid.co.uk) wrote: > > > > > >At 13:49 06/04/00 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > > >>I'm going to be importing tcsh into src/contrib/ and replacing /bin/csh > > >>with tcsh. [etc] > > > > > >On principle, please don't do it. I'd go so far as to vote for having > > >/bin/sh as root's default shell. If people want to use whacky shells and > > >set fire to their ass they are free to do so, but I seriously doubt the > > >wisdom of encouraging them. > > > > I agree with your statement. > -snip- > > To substantiate: > -snip- > > - Embedded Systems. > > Effectively, embedded systems are pretty customised because > > they need to be small in size as well as be functional. This > > idea would support the argument of retiring csh to the ports > > system and just have sh as the only shell in the base system. > > That opens the way for easily customising the sources by using > > the ports or just using /bin/sh since it is fast, small and > > reliable. > > I've seen this argument more than one time in this discussion but it > is void. Nobody is going to install the base FreeBSD distribution on > an embedded system. This mean he/she has to walk through the tree > anyway to cut out all unneeded binaries (ie. atm*, isdn*, etc.). But *my* embedded systems need all those, it just doesn't need tcsh. I do agree with Andre, though, and no longer pose any objection to replacing csh with tcsh, as long as csh is moved to a port. I don't even care if it is that carefully maintained; if it breaks and I need it, I can fix it. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 10 9: 1:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EE3137B8D9 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:01:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26012 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:01:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA05285 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:01:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from urban.iinet.net.au (urban.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262ED37B717; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:28:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from popserver-02.iinet.net.au (popserver-02.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.148]) by urban.iinet.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08364; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:28:34 +0800 Received: from jules.elischer.org (reggae-20-246.nv.iinet.net.au [203.59.85.246]) by popserver-02.iinet.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA24882; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:28:29 +0800 Message-ID: <38F1F245.2781E494@elischer.org> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:24:53 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BUF/BIO roadmap. References: <23546.955367727@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > Core asked me to produce a short document about what I am trying to > do with the struct buf / struct bio and all that jazz. > > This paper can be found here: http://phk.freebsd.dk/Bio/bio.ps > > There are two parts to it: > > 1. The argumentation for splitting struct bio out from struct buf > > 2. A road map for the stackable BIO system. I agree with all that is said... some coments.. I would like to see these issues addressed: When I did this I didn't try and separate the buf into two structures, but rather, introduced a structure called an iorequest (ioreq). This sructure was only ppresent in the disk stacking layer to limit changes elsewhere in the kernel for stability reasons and to allow the kernel to still be compiled without the new structure. (this was a mistake). The top level strategy routine allocated one of these and extracted the needed fields out of the struct buf. The aim was eventually, to do a cleanup on struct buf when ioreq had become upiquitous in drivers, and remove all the io related fields. different approach, same result. From memory, I managed to do this without having a pbklno and a lblkno.(I noticed that you still have both in the document) in the bio struct (my ioreq) so I wonder whether it is really needed. (I may have got the names wrong as the document is not in front of me) The devices and stacking had exactly the same semantics as you suggest (re: refusing to open clashing devices etc.) so I agree totally with that. You make no mention as to how one maps an arbitrarily stacked set of partitions into minor numbers. (i.e. what is the minor number of a partition called da2s1de [scsi-disk(2)]----[MBR(1)]---[BSD(d)]---[BSD(e)]--device_node (where someone has put a BSD partition within a BSD partition). (should be legal right?) I handled this by allocating minors on the fly and making DEVFS a required item. What is your suggestion? The issue of only physically mapping bufs is not related. Unless we get BSDI style interrupt threads, the idea of propogating up 'probe' operations cannot be done safely (believe me I looked at this a lot). I even had it running that way. It works but it's not guaranteed safe.. (never bit me but statistically it would eventually bite someone). The solution I eventualy came to,, but was never given the opportunity to check-in, was to immediatly propogate the 'arrival' events to a separate kernel daemon, called devd, and queue devd to be scheduled. The events would be queued for devd's attention. Each event consisted of information and a function to run. Thus each driver would scchedule that one of it's functions would be run at kernel process level (where sleeping on IO is possible), and that function would be responsible for initiating the probes for partition types etc. The Other problem I faced was the possibility that when a low level device was open, the user might re-write the structures that defined some upper layer devices. My solution for that was that on the close() of the lower level device, all the upper level devices were asked to verify that they were still valid. This was a variant of the probe() call that used a lot of the same code in some cases. The 'verify' request propogated up (in the context of the closing process so devd was not involved), and on encountering a newly invalidated partition, it was switched into an 'invalidate' request which was further propogated up to any higher layer devices. One result of this was that as all 'close' operations on direct devices caused reprobing (effectively), all that devd had to do to probe a device when asked, was {open(); close(); } on the lowest level device. As an example of how this worked..closing /dev/da0 would ask the MBR node to reexamine the MBR. It in turn would pass up 'invalidate' events to any (old) partitions that were not the same, and 'verify' events to any partitions that appeared the same from at the MBR level. Obviously the higher level nodes could not have been open or the open of /dev/da0 would not have been possible. With DEVFS it might actually be posible that openning /dev/da0 would actually instantaneously invalidate all the higher nodes (which would remove them from the devfs.. (you can't open them now anyhow)), and you would just allow them to be rebuilt from scratch on the close() anyhow. (this idea may be a bit radical for some). In the downward propogation of open() and close() calls, we need to propogate independently open-for-read() and open-for-read+write() If one partition is already open for read and the another is openned for read/write, then the 'downstream' device needs to be upgraded for read/write. However if the read/write upper device is then closed, the downstream device should be downgraded to r/o. This cannot be guaranteed under present semantics as only the last close is passed to the device layer. My preliminary suggestion is the addition of a method accessmode(), to the cdevsw entry for a device, that is called before/after/instead of the open() and close() calls IF THE DRIVER SUPPORTS IT, that fully propogates this information. Justin Gibbs suggested that this call should also allow the driver to know WHO is making hte call, and that it should also be called when a 'fork()' or dup() call is made so that the driver an keep accurate accountings of what modes are presently in use and which are not. I am including the whole stacking framework under name "driver" here. This needs further discussion and I think there may be better solutions. Some upward propogating events such as revocation may be safe at the interupt level, however I think that a general mechanism such as I implemented with devd can be a win in the long run as they can be proven to be safe, with the only point of danger being limited to the code that queues the action request, which can be kept small enough to be rigorously analysed. As I have said before, It's a pitty that NIH removed my code but having this pretty much identical code added certainly is the right thing even if it is 2 years later than it would have been. (* had to say it you know..) > > Barring any competent objections, the patch still up for review > at http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc will be committed and work progress > according to the roadmap. I haven't looked again but I assume this is still the patch I agreed to before.. > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message -- __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000 ---> X_.---._/ presently in: Perth v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 10 11:57:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E555A37BCAC for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:57:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02390 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:57:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA05632 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:57:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AA3837B896 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:57:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost.freebsd.dk [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA25107; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:56:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Julian Elischer Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BUF/BIO roadmap. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:24:53 PDT." <38F1F245.2781E494@elischer.org> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:56:50 +0200 Message-ID: <25105.955393010@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <38F1F245.2781E494@elischer.org>, Julian Elischer writes: >>From memory, I managed to do this without having a pbklno and a >lblkno.(I noticed that you still have both in the document) in the >bio struct (my ioreq) so I wonder whether it is really needed. >(I may have got the names wrong as the document is not in front of me) With the stackable BIO pblkno either go away or get modified to be more general. Performance-wise pblkno *in some form* makes sense, there is no point in allocating a new struct bio for the basic slicer like MBR or BSD since only the offset is changed. One way to do this is to have a separate field in buf/bio and copy it in DEV_STRATEGY. This would make the bio_ field owned by the BIO subsystem and as such modifiable. iodone_chain goes away and bio_done becomes nestable. >You make no mention as to how one maps >an arbitrarily stacked set of partitions into minor numbers. >(i.e. what is the minor number of a partition called da2s1de Arbitrarily stacked nodes may require either a DEVFS or a devd (or geomd ?) to handle that issue. Backwards compatible stacking (ie: MBR then BSD) will use legacy minors to perserve POLA. >Unless we get BSDI style interrupt threads, the idea of propogating >up 'probe' operations cannot be done safely It sure can, but you need a kernel or user process to do the grunt work. A user process may be desirable for other reasons. >The Other problem I faced was the possibility that >when a low level device was open, the user might re-write the >structures that defined some upper layer devices. My solution for >that was that on the close() of the lower level device, all >the upper level devices were asked to verify that they were >still valid. It is certainly a sticky issue no matter how you tackle it, and I am more than a little bit tempted to apply root-inteligence rather than code complexity to this problem. A re-probe on close is probably the only sane, simplest and most POLA preserving action available. >In the downward propogation of open() and close() calls, we need to >propogate independently open-for-read() and open-for-read+write() >If one partition is already open for read and the another is openned >for read/write, then the 'downstream' device needs to be upgraded for >read/write. Obviously. >Justin Gibbs suggested that this call should also allow the driver >to know WHO is making hte call, Yeah, but unfortunately we loose that information long before we get to that point, from memory I belive it was VOP_OPEN which discards all but the credentials. The dup(2) problem in other words. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 10 16:52:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACA9E37B647 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:52:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA04651 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:52:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA06340 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:52:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC8137B755; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:49:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA22240; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:48:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA4BaOyR; Mon Apr 10 16:48:07 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA28651; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:49:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004102349.QAA28651@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh To: obrien@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:49:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20000406151126.C25607@dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at Apr 06, 2000 03:11:26 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:01:17PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I think putting in tcsh as csh would be putting FreeBSD in the > > same position of having a shell where script authors think they > > are using features which are available everywhere, but are > > specific to the "enhanced" shell > > Tcsh buys us *INTERACTIVE* enhancements, not scripting ones. It buys us different code that used to be running. Different code is bad, for something as critical as a shell scripting language. Look at the bash-isms that keep creeping into configure scripts, making them only work on systems where /bin/sh is bash. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 10 17: 4:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CA5B37B647 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:04:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA04902 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:04:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id CAA06418 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:04:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3626A37B7D3; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:00:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA25908; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:59:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA9taaFY; Mon Apr 10 16:59:26 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA29030; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:00:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004110000.RAA29030@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh To: freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (Rodney W. Grimes) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:00:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: obrien@freebsd.org, nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams), arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200004062336.QAA38972@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> from "Rodney W. Grimes" at Apr 06, 2000 04:36:02 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > PicoBSD is just *one* of the many, many, many uses for small embedded > > > system. > > > > List them. > > Your not reading. He already listed a handfull, Juniper, Whistle, etc > all. I'll ad 3 in I am working on, can't give you names, but 8K bites > for me, let alone 400K. Whistle doesn't really depend on PicoBSD, and our image is approximately 20M. Our default root shell is, in fact, tcsh. But it's called tcsh, not csh. I think the most damning argument so far is the "enhanced" (read as "gratuitously different, in a bad way") variable substitution. I didn't know about that, per se, going into this, but I knew that there would be something. For flash disk, like on the i.Opener, or the new Compaq webpad, etc., image size is much more important. You can only fit so much into 45M, and a NetScape, an X server, a FreeBSD, and drivers for 2.4 GHz equipment and ppp are pretty much a very tight squeeze, even with a compressed ELF image loader. > Ohh.. and yess... I am still a confirmed anti-bloat screaming monger > from the good old days when a 10 command OS/8 CLI was just fine with > me, and PIP had more options than ls. I still regret the replacement of "tar" with "gnu tar", particularly the absolute path thingy; it seems that it snuck in under the cover of tar being unable to write holey files. I have been bitten more than once by "tar" not being "real tar", praticularly when scripting for portability between FreeBSD and AIX (AIX still has "real tar"). 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 10 17: 8:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A38D37B6B4 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:08:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA04998 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:08:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id CAA06444 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:08:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DB4D37B569; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:08:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA18992; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:07:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAIvaicL; Mon Apr 10 17:07:09 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA29263; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:08:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004110008.RAA29263@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh To: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:08:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: obrien@freebsd.org, nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams), arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami" at Apr 06, 2000 06:28:31 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > That said, I think it is a good idea to replace csh with tcsh. tcsh > and csh are so close, there is no issue on scripting (I am not aware > of any incompatibilities between tcsh and csh commands that will make > csh scripts fail), 1) Someone writes a "csh" script that uses "tcsh" "enhanced" variable substitution. 2) I then try to run that same script on another system, with a real "csh". 3) The script fails. The problem is not that "csh" scripts from other systems won't run on "tcsh", the problem is that if someone naievely writes code thinking that the result will then run on some other box, when in fact it will not, because that boxes "csh" has not be replaced with "tcsh". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 10 17:33:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 019B837B64B for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:33:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA05143 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:33:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id CAA06525 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:33:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85B4237B806 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:33:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA19902; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:32:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAkca4XM; Mon Apr 10 17:32:15 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA29933; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:32:50 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004110032.RAA29933@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code To: jlemon@flugsvamp.com (Jonathan Lemon) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:32:50 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dillon@apollo.backplane.com (Matthew Dillon), jlemon@flugsvamp.com (Jonathan Lemon), archie@whistle.com (Archie Cobbs), freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20000407001929.N80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> from "Jonathan Lemon" at Apr 07, 2000 12:19:29 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > My vision in this scenario is that each library will create it's own > kqueue, and register the events that it is interested in within that > kqueue. This way there is no conflict between events registered by > a library, and those registered by the main program. (recall that the > uniqifier for an event within a kqueue is (ident/filter). I would like to recommend that this interface be made into a bidirectional interface. Further, I would suggest the ability to queue an event down, at the same time posting a read for the next event up, so as to save 50% of the system calls that would otherwise be required. One specific use I envision for this would be to allow the creation of a /dev/lmi device for doing link management for a dial-on-demand border router (8-)). The point being is that if there is a listener registered, then attempts to connect are passed with credential information to the listener. The listener can then make an administrative policy decision as to whether or not to refuse the request (e.g. make the "connect" system call return an error, as something like "EPOLICY", if the demand that would have resulted in the link being brought up is prohibited by administrative policy). This is a somewhat specific example, but you get the idea: it could be a more general means of communicating between the kernel and a user space policy daemon. Another example would be a "session manager". I know that there is some current work ongoing on a FreeBSD SMBFS. It would make a lot of sense to have a session manager that lived in user space (e.g. in an X session or on the console, or with a local credential cache -- this last would be only useful for pre-need authentication caching) that could pop up a kernel request to a user for credential information that would then be used by the kernel in order to establish a per user authentication instance (instead of a kludgy system-wide single credential). One could envision this being more generally useful, for things like a cryptographic file system that wants a credential in order to encrypt/decrypt FS data, or allowing per directory or per file access authentication requirements to be imposed. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 10 17:50:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AF537B7BE for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:50:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA05275 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:50:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id CAA06557 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:50:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.79.126]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8160537B647 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:49:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.79.115]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09582; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:49:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26344; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:49:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:49:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004110049.SAA26344@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams), arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <200004110000.RAA29030@usr09.primenet.com> References: <200004062336.QAA38972@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <200004110000.RAA29030@usr09.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I still regret the replacement of "tar" with "gnu tar" Umm, Terry. There was never any replacement that went on, since there was no 'tar' sources that came with Net1/Net2 or 4.4Lite1/2. Gnu-tar was used because the BSD replacement (pax) was so buggy to be almost unusable, and no-one was interested in fixing it. I don't think BSDi even has pax working, due to the non-interest in the new format. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 10 19:25: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57E4D37B52C for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:24:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA06481 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 04:24:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA06674 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 04:24:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 362CD37B953 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:24:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA07939; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:24:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA7paqip; Mon Apr 10 19:23:49 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA03058; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:23:53 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004110223.TAA03058@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BUF/BIO roadmap. To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:23:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: julian@elischer.org (Julian Elischer), arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <25105.955393010@critter.freebsd.dk> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Apr 10, 2000 08:56:50 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >The Other problem I faced was the possibility that > >when a low level device was open, the user might re-write the > >structures that defined some upper layer devices. My solution for > >that was that on the close() of the lower level device, all > >the upper level devices were asked to verify that they were > >still valid. > > It is certainly a sticky issue no matter how you tackle it, and I > am more than a little bit tempted to apply root-inteligence rather > than code complexity to this problem. A re-probe on close is > probably the only sane, simplest and most POLA preserving action > available. My suggestion to Julian at the time, which he didn't like, but which I did, and which I thought was significantly more elegant, was to move the slice management into the kernel. The kernel has to have some idea of these structures, and it is the kernel that understands the hierarchical relationships in a nested stack. Because the kernel has to be able to read this to identify devices, it is a simple matter to make it write the structures as well. That is, if I want an DOS partition table or DOS extended partition table, or a BSD disklabel, or an SVR4 VTOC, then I issue an ioctl() to do the work. The interface for this could be normalized, so that it could query available partition management schemes (even loading KLDs on demand to support new ones, if necessary). The ioctl() would have the same interface. This would let you finally have a single "fdisk" program that could grok all of the partitioning management schemes supported by your system, and present them rationally and uniformly, in one interface, without needing to link the disklabel code with the fdisk code with the ... code. This allows the kernel to intermediate the corner cases, which a user space write or hierarchical locking can not successfully allow, for enforcement reasons. Consider that I may have unallocated disk space, and I may have a partitition management scheme with a free slot available; why should I have to take the entire stack down, in order to write a new DOS partitition table entry that has no negative impact on the functioning of the system? I view this as an issue for Vinum plexes, as well as automatic allocation of PP's in something like an IBM JFS (indeed, if you were to deal with the cylinder group fill issue, you could well imagine that you could have an agregation device that could handle FFS auto-growth, 4M of disk at a time, from a common pool shared between several filesystems). Given a node-locked hierarchy, as Julian has put forward, I really can't allocate more disk space, unless I can write the table for the agregation device, and I can't do that if the agregation device is in use (e.g., the single most useful time for me to want to do the job). > >Justin Gibbs suggested that this call should also allow the driver > >to know WHO is making hte call, > > Yeah, but unfortunately we loose that information long before we > get to that point, from memory I belive it was VOP_OPEN which discards > all but the credentials. The dup(2) problem in other words. I think Julian was thinking of the credentials, not the proc struct. The specfs glue code really needs to be shot. It's not really rational to keep "struct fileops", going forward. There was never sufficient integration of the VFS code, back at the time that the VFS was brought in; the specfs and socket warts are cases in point. This would satisfy both of your criteria, I think, as well as just finally cleaning out from under that particular rug. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 10 19:51:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59E0337B887 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:50:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA06751 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 04:50:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA06715 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 04:50:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54FD037B887 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:49:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA44654; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:52:49 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:52:49 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jonathan Lemon , Matthew Dillon , Archie Cobbs , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code Message-ID: <20000410215249.B42765@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <20000407001929.N80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200004110032.RAA29933@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200004110032.RAA29933@usr09.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 12:32:50AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: [ ..snip.. ] > Further, I would suggest the ability to queue an event down, > at the same time posting a read for the next event up, so as > to save 50% of the system calls that would otherwise be > required. [ ..snip.. ] > The point being is that if there is a listener registered, > then attempts to connect are passed with credential information > to the listener. The listener can then make an administrative > policy decision as to whether or not to refuse the request > (e.g. make the "connect" system call return an error, as > something like "EPOLICY", if the demand that would have resulted > in the link being brought up is prohibited by administrative > policy). I understand what you're saying here, but it's a different area in problem space. What you seem to be looking for is essentially a message passing mechanism between the kernel and userland. This is not exactly what the current code is targeted for. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 10 19:54:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AD5737B738 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:54:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA06771 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 04:54:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA06730 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 04:54:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19DDD37B8C7; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:54:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA39351; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:54:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:54:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Nate Williams Cc: Terry Lambert , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <200004110049.SAA26344@nomad.yogotech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 10 Apr 2000, Nate Williams wrote: > I don't think BSDi even has pax working, due to the non-interest in the > new format. I believe NetBSD uses a heavily modified pax instead of gnu tar to extract things like packages - i.e. it can understand gnu tar archives. OpenBSD also have a much more functional version. I was thinking about importing one of the two into FreeBSD so we can play catchup. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 10 19:59:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231B637B6CB for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:59:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA06830 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 04:59:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA06747 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 04:59:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDD6737B855; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:58:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA39811; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:58:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:58:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Terry Lambert Cc: Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami , obrien@freebsd.org, Nate Williams , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <200004110008.RAA29263@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > The problem is not that "csh" scripts from other systems won't run > on "tcsh", the problem is that if someone naievely writes code > thinking that the result will then run on some other box, when in > fact it will not, because that boxes "csh" has not be replaced > with "tcsh". So you wouldn't object to leaving csh as csh, importing tcsh and making it the default shell for root? The perception of new users is really a very big factor here - people who spend any time listening to newbie comments (as opposed to just talking about their 20-year old UNIX habits and how they're too old to change) will know how much we Lose here when they're used to a system (Linux) with a "friendly" default shell. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 10 20:29:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48B537B791 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:29:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA06999 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 05:29:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id FAA06839 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 05:29:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from knecht.Sendmail.ORG (knecht.sendmail.org [209.31.233.176]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95EA937B541; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:28:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mckusick@flamingo.McKusick.COM) Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (root@flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178]) by knecht.Sendmail.ORG (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e3B3SXc85991; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA26536; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200004110225.TAA26536@flamingo.McKusick.COM> To: Julian Elischer Subject: Re: BUF/BIO roadmap. Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:24:53 PDT." <38F1F245.2781E494@elischer.org> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:25:51 -0700 From: Kirk McKusick Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It is my understanding that the BSD/OS MP work will soon be considered for incorporation into FreeBSD. Part of that project will include the addition of interrupt threads. Assuming that they go in, it will not be necessary to have a devd process. Beyond that, I agree with Julians comments. Kirk McKusick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 0:21:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3CA137B875 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:21:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08532 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:21:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA07311 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:21:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1587C37B875 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:20:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michael.schuster@germany.sun.com) Received: from emuc05-home.Germany.Sun.COM ([129.157.51.10]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA24499 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from germany.sun.com (hacker [129.157.167.97]) by emuc05-home.Germany.Sun.COM (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8/ENSMAIL,v1.7) with ESMTP id JAA18340 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:20:55 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <38F2D225.1BABE12C@germany.sun.com> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:20:05 +0200 From: Michael Schuster - TSC SunOS Germany Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway wrote: > The perception of new users is really a very big factor here - people who > spend any time listening to newbie comments (as opposed to just talking > about their 20-year old UNIX habits and how they're too old to change) > will know how much we Lose here when they're used to a system (Linux) with > a "friendly" default shell. I think there's a big difference between a default shell (read "for non-root users") and root's shell. I see no technical reason (and if there is, it needs to be amended) to not keep these two seperate. IMO, changing the root shell to anything but /bin/sh (esp. something as incompatible as *csh) is a bad move. There's just too much that depends on this. > Kris cheers Michael -- Michael.Schuster@germany.sun.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 0:24: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 573A437B85E for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:24:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08554 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:23:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA07327 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:23:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14E4F37B618; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:22:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA66390; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:22:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:22:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Michael Schuster - TSC SunOS Germany Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <38F2D225.1BABE12C@germany.sun.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Michael Schuster - TSC SunOS Germany wrote: > IMO, changing the root shell to anything but /bin/sh (esp. something as > incompatible as *csh) is a bad move. There's just too much that depends on > this. Like? Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 0:28:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D28E37B8A5 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:28:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08670 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:28:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA07346 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:28:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7689537B85E; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:27:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michael.schuster@germany.sun.com) Received: from emuc05-home.Germany.Sun.COM ([129.157.51.10]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA25997; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from germany.sun.com (hacker [129.157.167.97]) by emuc05-home.Germany.Sun.COM (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8/ENSMAIL,v1.7) with ESMTP id JAA18863; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:27:47 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <38F2D3C1.6D103AB6@germany.sun.com> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:26:57 +0200 From: Michael Schuster - TSC SunOS Germany Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Michael Schuster - TSC SunOS Germany wrote: > > > IMO, changing the root shell to anything but /bin/sh (esp. something as > > incompatible as *csh) is a bad move. There's just too much that depends on > > this. > > Like? cron scripts, for one. > Kris Michael -- Michael Schuster / Michael.Schuster@germany.sun.com Sun Microsystem GmbH / Richard-Reitzner Allee 8, D-85540 Haar (+49 89) 46008 974 / x12974 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 0:35:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A04C37BBF2 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:35:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08758 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:35:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA07366 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:35:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48E637B6CB; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:33:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA12721; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:03:25 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38F2D3C1.6D103AB6@germany.sun.com> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:03:25 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Michael Schuster - TSC SunOS Germany Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Kris Kennaway Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 11-Apr-00 Michael Schuster - TSC SunOS Germany wrote: > cron scripts, for one. Except that using [t]csh for a cron job is a silly idea (IMHO of course :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 0:40:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5FD637B906 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:40:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08825 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:40:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA07384 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:40:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED03637B8A5 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:40:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michael.schuster@germany.sun.com) Received: from emuc05-home.Germany.Sun.COM ([129.157.51.10]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA28945; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from germany.sun.com (hacker [129.157.167.97]) by emuc05-home.Germany.Sun.COM (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8/ENSMAIL,v1.7) with ESMTP id JAA20121; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:39:58 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <38F2D69C.95E08BB6@germany.sun.com> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:39:08 +0200 From: Michael Schuster - TSC SunOS Germany Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Daniel O'Connor wrote: > On 11-Apr-00 Michael Schuster - TSC SunOS Germany wrote: > > cron scripts, for one. > > Except that using [t]csh for a cron job is a silly idea (IMHO of course :) which is exactly what I'm trying to say :-) > Daniel O'Connor Michael -- Michael Schuster / Michael.Schuster@germany.sun.com Sun Microsystem GmbH / Richard-Reitzner Allee 8, D-85540 Haar (+49 89) 46008 974 / x12974 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 1:34:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCFB037B987 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:34:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09620 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:33:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA07501 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE66137B8A5 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:33:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA91579; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:33:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Cc: Terry Lambert , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: <200004062336.QAA38972@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <200004110000.RAA29030@usr09.primenet.com> <200004110049.SAA26344@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 11 Apr 2000 10:33:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: Nate Williams's message of "Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:49:49 -0600 (MDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nate Williams writes: > > I still regret the replacement of "tar" with "gnu tar" > Umm, Terry. There was never any replacement that went on, since there > was no 'tar' sources that came with Net1/Net2 or 4.4Lite1/2. Gnu-tar > was used because the BSD replacement (pax) was so buggy to be almost > unusable, and no-one was interested in fixing it. Speaking of buggy, FreeBSD's version of GNU tar is not a shining example of perfection either. The named vs. numeric ownership issue should be controlled by a command-line option, not by a compile-time define; and the tarballs it produces with --listed-incremental can't be properly extracted by an unmodified GNU tar 1.13. This really bites people using Amanda. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 8: 7:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EE3737BA69 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:07:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14259 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:07:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA07960 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:07:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A5EB37B9D8 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:06:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id IAA33450; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:06:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:06:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200004111506.IAA33450@apollo.backplane.com> To: Michael Schuster - TSC SunOS Germany Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: <38F2D225.1BABE12C@germany.sun.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :Kris Kennaway wrote: : :> The perception of new users is really a very big factor here - people who :> spend any time listening to newbie comments (as opposed to just talking :> about their 20-year old UNIX habits and how they're too old to change) :> will know how much we Lose here when they're used to a system (Linux) with :> a "friendly" default shell. : :I think there's a big difference between a default shell (read "for :non-root users") and root's shell. I see no technical reason (and if there :is, it needs to be amended) to not keep these two seperate. : :IMO, changing the root shell to anything but /bin/sh (esp. something as :incompatible as *csh) is a bad move. There's just too much that depends on :this. : :> Kris : :cheers :Michael :-- :Michael.Schuster@germany.sun.com Changing the root shell works just fine. I've used tcsh as my root shell (here and at BEST) for years without any problems. My only issue is basically that I don't see any purpose to replacing the /bin/csh binary, and there are many pitfalls (like people beginning to write #!/bin/csh scripts that assume tcsh extensions). Just have both, and if a few people think it wastes too much space well too bad, they can delete one or the other. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 8:30:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C155337BACA for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:30:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14835 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:30:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA08008 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:30:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ewok.creative.net.au (fuzzy.aussie.com.au [203.30.44.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 179D637BA59 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:30:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@ewok.creative.net.au) Received: (qmail 27979 invoked by uid 1008); 11 Apr 2000 15:30:01 -0000 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:30:01 +0800 From: Adrian Chadd To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Michael Schuster - TSC SunOS Germany , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000411232959.A25933@ewok.creative.net.au> References: <38F2D225.1BABE12C@germany.sun.com> <200004111506.IAA33450@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <200004111506.IAA33450@apollo.backplane.com>; from Matthew Dillon on Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 08:06:46AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Apr 11, 2000, Matthew Dillon wrote: > > Changing the root shell works just fine. I've used tcsh as my root > shell (here and at BEST) for years without any problems. > > My only issue is basically that I don't see any purpose to replacing the > /bin/csh binary, and there are many pitfalls (like people beginning to > write #!/bin/csh scripts that assume tcsh extensions). Just have both, > and if a few people think it wastes too much space well too bad, they > can delete one or the other. > I think this is a sensible comprimise. Leave csh in there, add tcsh, and set root's shell to tcsh instead. Being a linux convert I do remember trying to port some of my /bin/sh scripts to FreeBSD and wondering why they didn't work. My 2c, Adrian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 8:42:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36F8537B9CE for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:42:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15024 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:42:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA08034 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:42:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (Ilsa.StevesCafe.com [206.168.13.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0289C37B9D8 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:42:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsd@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA11527 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:42:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fbsd@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com) Message-Id: <200004111542.JAA11527@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 From: Steve Passe To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:06:46 PDT." <200004111506.IAA33450@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:42:34 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I've tried REAL hard to stay out of this conversation as I have little to contribute regarding csh vs tcsh. But as this thread might influence the future system structure I have to add my 2cents worth. At Timing Solutions (shameless commercial plug) we are ramping up to use FreeBSD in a big way on "embedded" systems. In training current customers to use/maintain our products they almost always can't understand why the shell they use as "a user" is totally different from the shell they use "as root". And forget about even trying to show them how to use regular expressions. Soooo, whether we replace csh with tcsh or not, I would like to add my vote to the list of those suggesting that the "root user" shell be /bin/sh right out of the box. Remember that we want to bring people over from M$oft, and the first thing those users have to deal with after installation is the shell. Old time unix hacks will be able to change to csh easily if they want, a new dos convert won't even know he has an alternative, much less know how to install it. -- Steve Passe | powered by smp@csn.net | Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 9:24:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8055C37B954 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:24:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15633 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:24:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA08138 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:24:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4EB737B954 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:23:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost.freebsd.dk [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA31103 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:23:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BUF/BIO roadmap. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:25:51 PDT." <200004110225.TAA26536@flamingo.McKusick.COM> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:23:48 +0200 Message-ID: <31101.955470228@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG A number of people have suggested this paper "be put in the tree". Two questions: 1. Should it ? 2. In this doc tree or src/share/doc/papers -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 9:29:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF6DE37B7B0 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:29:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15711 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:29:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA08169 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:29:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A0B337BABC for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:28:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA37293 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:28:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:28:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: file system extended attributes support (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 01:39:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson Reply-To: Robert Watson To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: file system extended attributes support As part of the supporting code base for a number of security-related projects on FreeBSD, I've hacked up extended attribute support for FreeBSD. This allows arbitrary named attributes to be associated with each inode, maintained by the kernel. In December, I committed APIs associated with this code to the FreeBSD repository, and now after a few months of testing and use, I'd like to commit the code itself to the repo. Doing so will facilitate the further development of a number of security-related projects, including the TrustedBSD MAC, ACL, and Capability support, as well as third party security code such as the NAI/TIS Labs FreeDTE code. This code is similar to the Quota code, in that it stores attributes in backing files in the file system (or in another file system), and may be enabled per-FFS partition. My feeling is that this approach allows maximum flexibility at this point in the life cycle of FreeBSD in terms of VFS maturity. As the support for stacked file systems matures, I'd be willing to reconsider the manner in which this is implemented. The current version of the code, diff'd from the main repo a few days ago on the 5.0-CURRENT (head) branch, is available for download at: http://www.trustedbsd.org/downloads/ It contains a great deal of #ifdef'd debugging code, but also contains some utilities that can be experimented with. I recommend reading the extattrctl man page first. The excessive debugging code will be stripped before committing, and once I'm confident that it works for more than just the four or five people who've used it thus far :-). Thanks, Robert N M Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 9:51:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A20237BACC for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:51:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15972 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:51:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA08214 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:51:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12C7A37BB4B; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:49:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA24582; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:48:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA95aOYV; Tue Apr 11 09:48:40 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA17290; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:49:03 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004111649.JAA17290@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BUF/BIO roadmap. To: mckusick@flamingo.McKusick.COM (Kirk McKusick) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:49:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: julian@elischer.org (Julian Elischer), phk@freebsd.org (Poul-Henning Kamp), arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200004110225.TAA26536@flamingo.McKusick.COM> from "Kirk McKusick" at Apr 10, 2000 07:25:51 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kirk McKusick writes: > > It is my understanding that the BSD/OS MP work will soon be > considered for incorporation into FreeBSD. Part of that > project will include the addition of interrupt threads. > Assuming that they go in, it will not be necessary to have > a devd process. Beyond that, I agree with Julians comments. Each time interrupt threads comes up, I have to point this out: Lazy Task Creation: A Technique for Increasing the Granularity of Parallel Programs E. Mohr, D.A. Kranz, and R.H. Halstead, Jr. _IEEE Transactions on Parallel and Distributed Systems_ July 1991, pages 264-280 It seems to me that the interrupt threads are an implementation of this (10 year old) technology. It also seems to me that kernel threads are _still_ a significantly bad idea, since the problems faced in kernel preemption are a subset of the problems faced in Real Time support, and that as a result, it will be significantly harder to support Hard Real Time in the future without significant revisions of the the OS architecture. I don't think the goal of code integration for the sake of code integration is really worthwhile. I view the use of kernel thread context switches as an alternative to addressing fine grained parallelism through critical sectioning and object locking as a compromise; perhaps not a good one, since this will obviously result in register window flushing on RISC architectures, such as SPARC. It seems to me that the thing to address first is that which Dynix addressed first, and which was noted in chapter 12 0f Uresh Vahalia's _UNIX Internal: The New Frontiers_, which is per processor resource pools with high and low watermarking and free resource revocation in low resource conditions. This would significantly reduce even the need for bus and lock contention, since contention would only occur at high or low watermark, or as the result of a resource revocation event in an already stressed system. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 9:57: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C63E37BAEF for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:56:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16066 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:56:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA08237 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:56:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A94A37BB05; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:56:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA13858; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:54:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAFCaO6A; Tue Apr 11 09:54:38 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA17651; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:55:41 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004111655.JAA17651@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh To: kris@freebsd.org (Kris Kennaway) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:55:41 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami), obrien@freebsd.org, nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams), arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Kris Kennaway" at Apr 10, 2000 07:58:48 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > The problem is not that "csh" scripts from other systems won't run > > on "tcsh", the problem is that if someone naievely writes code > > thinking that the result will then run on some other box, when in > > fact it will not, because that boxes "csh" has not be replaced > > with "tcsh". > > So you wouldn't object to leaving csh as csh, importing tcsh and making it > the default shell for root? IFF it's statically linked, -OR- we go dynamic linking for everything because we realize that a single file zap will shoot us in the foot, and we are no more vulnerable to ld.so or libc.so dying than /bin/sh, THEN no, I would not object to this. > The perception of new users is really a very big factor here - people who > spend any time listening to newbie comments (as opposed to just talking > about their 20-year old UNIX habits and how they're too old to change) > will know how much we Lose here when they're used to a system (Linux) with > a "friendly" default shell. New users should not be logging in as root. It even says so when they login as root. A user can select tcsh as their account shell, and then use "su -m" instead of "su", of course. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 9:59:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05F6937BB05 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:59:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16089 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:59:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA08251 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:59:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BB0237BAE8 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:59:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from semuta.feral.com (semuta [192.67.166.70]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24591; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:58:54 -0700 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:59:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Terry Lambert Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BUF/BIO roadmap. In-Reply-To: <200004111649.JAA17290@usr01.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > It also seems to me that kernel threads are _still_ a significantly > bad idea, since the problems faced in kernel preemption are a subset > of the problems faced in Real Time support, and that as a result, it > will be significantly harder to support Hard Real Time in the future > without significant revisions of the the OS architecture. Whether it's threads or additional kernel processes that can be schedule from interrupt level, I don't care, but the class of problems this solves for me makes it very desirable. The current approach in Linux of creating an interrupt/error handler thread per SCSI host adapter is *very* cool with respect to solving complex error issues in a clean fashion. The existing CAM subsystem would be a *lot* easier to follow/debug if it were threads/proc based. From a political point of view it's important as well. Veritas points out to me that they'll be porting VxFS and other products to Linux long before they'd port it to FreeBSD because Linux (like Solaris, NT, HP/UX) have a kernel threads model. You may be right with what you assert- I won't attempt to involve myself at that level, but from the point of view of this platform succeeding, well, I believe you're lifting at the heavy end, my friend. -matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 10: 2:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8348137BAD5 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:02:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA16134 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:02:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA08291 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:02:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7783237BADD for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:02:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA25689; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:00:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAxiaqeY; Tue Apr 11 10:00:45 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA17915; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:01:55 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004111701.KAA17915@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BUF/BIO roadmap. To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:01:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <31101.955470228@critter.freebsd.dk> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Apr 11, 2000 06:23:48 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > A number of people have suggested this paper "be put in the tree". > > Two questions: > > 1. Should it ? Yes. > 2. In this doc tree or src/share/doc/papers The doc tree. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 10: 9:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D64CF37BC2C for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:09:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA16209 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:09:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA08308 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:09:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from urban.iinet.net.au (urban.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A28E37BAE8; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:07:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from muzak.iinet.net.au (muzak.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.237]) by urban.iinet.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12536; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:07:33 +0800 Received: from jules.elischer.org (reggae-11-63.nv.iinet.net.au [203.59.69.63]) by muzak.iinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA29285; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:07:30 +0800 Message-ID: <38F35AC2.237C228A@elischer.org> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:02:58 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Kirk McKusick , Poul-Henning Kamp , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BUF/BIO roadmap. References: <200004111649.JAA17290@usr01.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > Kirk McKusick writes: > > > > It is my understanding that the BSD/OS MP work will soon be > > considered for incorporation into FreeBSD. Part of that > > project will include the addition of interrupt threads. > > Assuming that they go in, it will not be necessary to have > > a devd process. Beyond that, I agree with Julians comments. > > Each time interrupt threads comes up, I have to point this > out: > > Lazy Task Creation: A Technique for Increasing > the Granularity of Parallel Programs > E. Mohr, D.A. Kranz, and R.H. Halstead, Jr. > _IEEE Transactions on Parallel and Distributed Systems_ > July 1991, pages 264-280 > > It seems to me that the interrupt threads are an implementation > of this (10 year old) technology. As I have mentionned to you before. Just because something is a 10 year old idea does not make it bad. I think that making everything a thread with a blockable context, whether initiate from above or below, makes a lot of sense and significantly reduces the complexity of the fine-grained-SMP work that needs to be done. I also would like to point out that handling interupts is a significant part of hard-realtime, and that if the lowest level of the interrupt code is kept 'under control' then solutions imposed at this level in the non threaded case are also applicable in the threaded case. The lowest level is basically the same until the control is 'morphed' into a thread. > > It also seems to me that kernel threads are _still_ a significantly > bad idea, since the problems faced in kernel preemption are a subset > of the problems faced in Real Time support, and that as a result, it > will be significantly harder to support Hard Real Time in the future > without significant revisions of the the OS architecture. I believe this to not be the case in reality. Once control has been handed to an interrupt thread, that thread can be suspended in favour of the realtime process. This is not an option with the current system and actually gives a lot of possible options not presently available in handling RT operations. > > I don't think the goal of code integration for the sake of code > integration is really worthwhile. I view the use of kernel thread > context switches as an alternative to addressing fine grained > parallelism through critical sectioning and object locking as a > compromise; perhaps not a good one, since this will obviously > result in register window flushing on RISC architectures, such > as SPARC. The use of "lazy kernel threads" does not significantly alter the usage of registers from the current usage. > > It seems to me that the thing to address first is that which > Dynix addressed first, and which was noted in chapter 12 0f > Uresh Vahalia's _UNIX Internal: The New Frontiers_, which is > per processor resource pools with high and low watermarking and > free resource revocation in low resource conditions. This would > significantly reduce even the need for bus and lock contention, > since contention would only occur at high or low watermark, or > as the result of a resource revocation event in an already > stressed system. There has been no argument that this is probably a good idea in the long run. The use of lazy kernel threads for interrupt handling in no way interferes with this as the two features are orthogonal. This is only my opinion and not absolute truth. however it would be good to get people to discuss this topic a bit morenspecifically those from BSDI who have experience with the actual implementation. -- __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000 ---> X_.---._/ presently in: Perth v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 13:11:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2CD037B755 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:11:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18417 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:11:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA00253 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:11:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFDCF37B997; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:28:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA23154; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:28:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:28:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Steve Passe Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <200004111542.JAA11527@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Steve Passe wrote: > expressions. Soooo, whether we replace csh with tcsh or not, I would like > to add my vote to the list of those suggesting that the "root user" shell > be /bin/sh right out of the box. Remember that we want to bring people over ^tc? This seemed to be at odds with the rest of the paragraph: > from M$oft, and the first thing those users have to deal with after > installation is the shell. Old time unix hacks will be able to change to > csh easily if they want, a new dos convert won't even know he has an > alternative, much less know how to install it. Or did I misinterpret? Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 13:11:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC5C37BB83 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:11:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18418 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:11:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA00282 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:11:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0D1337B98C for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:56:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 258631C4A; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:56:55 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Michael Schuster - TSC SunOS Germany , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000411145655.A23367@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <38F2D225.1BABE12C@germany.sun.com> <200004111506.IAA33450@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200004111506.IAA33450@apollo.backplane.com>; from dillon@apollo.backplane.com on Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 08:06:46AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 08:06:46AM -0700, Matthew Dillon wrote: > My only issue is basically that I don't see any purpose to replacing the > /bin/csh binary, and there are many pitfalls (like people beginning to > write #!/bin/csh scripts that assume tcsh extensions). Just have both, > and if a few people think it wastes too much space well too bad, they > can delete one or the other. Case in point: All the scripts that say #!/bin/sh and were written by someone who assumes /bin/sh is bash. Not that any specific type of coders always tend to do that... -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect Computer Horizons Corp - CVM e-mail: billf@chc-chimes.com / billf@FreeBSD.org Office: 800-252-2421 x128 / Cell: 248-761-7272 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 13:11:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D58437B9F0 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:11:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18438 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:11:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA00395 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:11:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from urban.iinet.net.au (urban.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4147437BB8F; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:14:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from muzak.iinet.net.au (muzak.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.237]) by urban.iinet.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13180; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:14:57 +0800 Received: from jules.elischer.org (reggae-11-63.nv.iinet.net.au [203.59.69.63]) by muzak.iinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA29526; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:14:56 +0800 Message-ID: <38F35C84.2F1CF0FB@elischer.org> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:10:28 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kirk McKusick Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BUF/BIO roadmap. References: <200004110225.TAA26536@flamingo.McKusick.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kirk McKusick wrote: > > It is my understanding that the BSD/OS MP work will soon be > considered for incorporation into FreeBSD. Part of that > project will include the addition of interrupt threads. > Assuming that they go in, it will not be necessary to have > a devd process. Beyond that, I agree with Julians comments. > > Kirk I posit that an in kernel devd might be a good abstraction, even in the case of having blockable interrupts. It is possible that the device that reports a new arrival, may want to generate more interrupts (a 2nd drive on a scsi chain may be active) and not be held up waiting for probing of the ist drive to complete. While having blockable interrupts would make the probing provably safe, it may not have the characteristics we want. There are other tasks that such a daemon can do, for example, poll the floppy for media removal. (which can be done on PCs without starting the motor). -- __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000 ---> X_.---._/ presently in: Perth v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 13:11:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E1437BC31 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:11:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18434 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:11:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA00378 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:11:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7F9637BB01; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:26:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e3BHqtK20507; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:52:55 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Terry Lambert Cc: Kirk McKusick , Julian Elischer , Poul-Henning Kamp , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BUF/BIO roadmap. Message-ID: <20000411105254.F4381@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200004110225.TAA26536@flamingo.McKusick.COM> <200004111649.JAA17290@usr01.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004111649.JAA17290@usr01.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 04:49:03PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Terry Lambert [000411 10:18] wrote: > Kirk McKusick writes: > > > > It is my understanding that the BSD/OS MP work will soon be > > considered for incorporation into FreeBSD. Part of that > > project will include the addition of interrupt threads. > > Assuming that they go in, it will not be necessary to have > > a devd process. Beyond that, I agree with Julians comments. > > Each time interrupt threads comes up, I have to point this > out: > > Lazy Task Creation: A Technique for Increasing > the Granularity of Parallel Programs > E. Mohr, D.A. Kranz, and R.H. Halstead, Jr. > _IEEE Transactions on Parallel and Distributed Systems_ > July 1991, pages 264-280 > > It seems to me that the interrupt threads are an implementation > of this (10 year old) technology. > > > It also seems to me that kernel threads are _still_ a significantly > bad idea, since the problems faced in kernel preemption are a subset > of the problems faced in Real Time support, and that as a result, it > will be significantly harder to support Hard Real Time in the future > without significant revisions of the the OS architecture. > > I don't think the goal of code integration for the sake of code > integration is really worthwhile. I view the use of kernel thread > context switches as an alternative to addressing fine grained > parallelism through critical sectioning and object locking as a > compromise; perhaps not a good one, since this will obviously > result in register window flushing on RISC architectures, such > as SPARC. > > It seems to me that the thing to address first is that which > Dynix addressed first, and which was noted in chapter 12 0f > Uresh Vahalia's _UNIX Internal: The New Frontiers_, which is > per processor resource pools with high and low watermarking and > free resource revocation in low resource conditions. This would > significantly reduce even the need for bus and lock contention, > since contention would only occur at high or low watermark, or > as the result of a resource revocation event in an already > stressed system. I have an idea that combines both Horde and Dynix, along with improvements on the locking scheme to reduce contention. So you get the non-locking mechanisms of Dynix, but the cache saving features of horde. Btw, going to be at BAFUG? :) -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 13:11:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FCAE37B6B2 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:11:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18426 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:11:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA00338 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:11:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9781937BB93 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:00:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13646; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:00:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200004111800.OAA13646@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <31101.955470228@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:00:00 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: BUF/BIO roadmap. Cc: arch@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 11-Apr-00 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > A number of people have suggested this paper "be put in the tree". > > Two questions: > > 1. Should it ? Yes. > 2. In this doc tree or src/share/doc/papers Right now we are working on adding a developer's handbook into the doc/ tree. Once that is done it should go in there. > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 13:13:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2FD937BB6B for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:12:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18428 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:11:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA00358 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:11:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7552A37B755; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:54:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA20982; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:53:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAEPaO2O; Tue Apr 11 10:53:30 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA20002; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:53:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004111753.KAA20002@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BUF/BIO roadmap. To: julian@elischer.org (Julian Elischer) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:53:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), mckusick@flamingo.McKusick.COM (Kirk McKusick), phk@freebsd.org (Poul-Henning Kamp), arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <38F35AC2.237C228A@elischer.org> from "Julian Elischer" at Apr 11, 2000 10:02:58 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > It seems to me that the interrupt threads are an implementation > > of this (10 year old) technology. > > As I have mentionned to you before. Just because something is a > 10 year old idea does not make it bad. Agreed. > I think that making everything a thread with a blockable context, > whether initiate from above or below, makes a lot of sense and > significantly reduces the complexity of the fine-grained-SMP work > that needs to be done. It may surprise you that I agree that this statement is correct; however, I think that given a choice between low complexity vs. high performance, I will choose high performance. The Linux benchmarks by ZD Labs, the Netcraft results being ignored for controversy, show that low complexity is not always the best choice. So it takes smart people to understand the code; there are enough smart people on this list that I don't see that as a problem. Put another way, I prefer hanging out with smart people. > I also would like to point out that handling interupts is a > significant part of hard-realtime, and that if the lowest > level of the interrupt code is kept 'under control' then > solutions imposed at this level in the non threaded case are > also applicable in the threaded case. The lowest level is > basically the same until the control is 'morphed' into a thread. Where is Peter when I need him? }B-p The primary attribute of Hard Real Time is determinism. You MUST have determinism in scheduling. If we wish to be technical, PC hardware is generally incapable of Hard Real Time for more than a single task, unless we loosen our deadlines significantly below the capabilities of the hardware (i.e. Soft Real Time). > > It also seems to me that kernel threads are _still_ a significantly > > bad idea, since the problems faced in kernel preemption are a subset > > of the problems faced in Real Time support, and that as a result, it > > will be significantly harder to support Hard Real Time in the future > > without significant revisions of the the OS architecture. > > I believe this to not be the case in reality. Once control has been > handed to an interrupt thread, that thread can be suspended in favour of > the realtime process. This is not an option with the current system > and actually gives a lot of possible options not presently available > in handling RT operations. Please compare the performance of SMP Linux and SMP Solaris. SMP Linux uses the approach you are suggesting, and SMP Solaris uses finite state automata, implemented via critical object locking (less efficient than critical sectioning, in the limit, but vastly more efficient than taking a context switch hit, which on FreeBSD Pentium class hardware may mean FPU register changes for uiomove support; and once in, I can't see kernel threads _not_ being used for PIO -- they're too convenient to not abuse). > > I don't think the goal of code integration for the sake of code > > integration is really worthwhile. I view the use of kernel thread > > context switches as an alternative to addressing fine grained > > parallelism through critical sectioning and object locking as a > > compromise; perhaps not a good one, since this will obviously > > result in register window flushing on RISC architectures, such > > as SPARC. > > The use of "lazy kernel threads" does not significantly alter > the usage of registers from the current usage. Unnecessary context switching, even to other contexts within the same address space, does. A stack switch requires flushing of register windows. The SunOS 4.x "liblwp" (a user space call conversion scheduler, which did not support SMP scaling) is specifically based on a University of Washingtom project, resulting in the paper: Register Windows and User-Space Threads on the SPARC KEPPEL UW-CSE-91-08-01 U of Washington CS ftp://ftp.icsi.Berkeley.edu/pub/techreports/1994/tr-94-027.ps.Z The system call for the context switch register window flush described in the paper would have to be done for kernel threads context switchs on SPARC and other RISC architectures which also implement register windowing. > > It seems to me that the thing to address first is that which > > Dynix addressed first, and which was noted in chapter 12 0f > > Uresh Vahalia's _UNIX Internal: The New Frontiers_, which is > > per processor resource pools with high and low watermarking and > > free resource revocation in low resource conditions. This would > > significantly reduce even the need for bus and lock contention, > > since contention would only occur at high or low watermark, or > > as the result of a resource revocation event in an already > > stressed system. > > There has been no argument that this is probably a good idea in > the long run. The use of lazy kernel threads for interrupt > handling in no way interferes with this as the two features are > orthogonal. Agreed. I was merely expressing a preference for ordering, and where I thought the lowest hanging fruit resides. IMO, that's not in kernel threading. Kernel threads are merely a poor way to achieve SMP scaling of user space processes, and to avoid doing the hard work of building proper automata. My personal feeling is that kernel threads will be significantly more prone to the possibility of revealed race conditions than proper automata. You may disagree with this statement, but my personal experience with both approaches tells me that this is so. > This is only my opinion and not absolute truth. > however it would be good to get people to discuss this topic a > bit more specifically those from BSDI who have experience with the > actual implementation. You mean the BSDI's implementation, of course. Yes, I would like to hear more about their implementation; all I have is the verbal and email descriptions of interrupt threads. I personally have some applicable experience with Solaris, UnixWare, and AIX. Oh yeah, and experience with FreeBSD dating back to October of 1995 and Jack Vogel's patches. If we could drag Bryan Mann into this, he could enlighten us with his experience on SMP UNIX for ICL. I kind of doubt that Whistle's nCube neighbors, or our former CTO, Jim Li (Thinking Machines) could be dragged in, but it can't hurt to ask. Jack Vogel would be a good resource, as well, if we could get him to participate. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 13:19: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5212437BB8F for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:19:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18503 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:19:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA00205 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:18:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D1B37BB99 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:17:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA07433; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:16:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAACTa4Ln; Tue Apr 11 10:16:01 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA18415; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:16:12 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004111716.KAA18415@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BUF/BIO roadmap. To: mjacob@feral.com Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:16:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Matthew Jacob" at Apr 11, 2000 09:59:00 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > It also seems to me that kernel threads are _still_ a significantly > > bad idea, since the problems faced in kernel preemption are a subset > > of the problems faced in Real Time support, and that as a result, it > > will be significantly harder to support Hard Real Time in the future > > without significant revisions of the the OS architecture. > > Whether it's threads or additional kernel processes that can be schedule from > interrupt level, I don't care, but the class of problems this solves for me > makes it very desirable. The problems it appears to me to solve are those problems which are more difficult to solve using, but more elegantly solved by, finite state automa. > The current approach in Linux of creating an interrupt/error handler > thread per SCSI host adapter is *very* cool with respect to solving > complex error issues in a clean fashion. Errors are exceptional conditions. Handling these in a seperate thread is inelegant, and damages the ability to make deterministic guarantees about the amount of time a given driver task will take to complete. Being error conditions, this is probably acceptable, since one really can't expect a system to exhibit deterministic behaviour while it is experiencing hardware failures. > The existing CAM subsystem would be a *lot* easier to follow/debug > if it were threads/proc based. I think that if it were formally documented using UML, it would not only be easier to follow and do things like bring in the drivers which fell by the wayside when it was first innaugarated, debugging would be significantly easier than if it had threads. My reasoning for this is that it's possible to construct branch path validation code from (accurate) UML models, and it is possible to create formal proofs of code correctness. > From a political point of view it's important as well. Veritas > points out to me that they'll be porting VxFS and other products > to Linux long before they'd port it to FreeBSD because Linux > (like Solaris, NT, HP/UX) have a kernel threads model. You may > be right with what you assert- I won't attempt to involve myself > at that level, but from the point of view of this platform > succeeding, well, I believe you're lifting at the heavy end, my > friend. Having hacked on the VXFS code in UnixWare 2.x at Novell/USG (the former USL: Hi, Mike and Mike!), I can assure you that the FreeBSD "kernel process" creation method used to create syncd, swapper, etc., is more than sufficient to support the VXFS "cleaner" task. Your Veritas argument is a strawman; they are porting to Linux because that's where they can get the most press. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 13:19:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3110237BAEF for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:19:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18499 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:19:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA00195 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:18:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D16E37B796 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:41:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from semuta.feral.com (semuta [192.67.166.70]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24758; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:41:12 -0700 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:41:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Terry Lambert Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BUF/BIO roadmap. In-Reply-To: <200004111716.KAA18415@usr01.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Whether it's threads or additional kernel processes that can be schedule from > > interrupt level, I don't care, but the class of problems this solves for me > > makes it very desirable. > > The problems it appears to me to solve are those problems which > are more difficult to solve using, but more elegantly solved by, > finite state automa. Umm. That's very true. The reality is that nobody funds the amount of time it takes to do true DFAs. > > > The current approach in Linux of creating an interrupt/error handler > > thread per SCSI host adapter is *very* cool with respect to solving > > complex error issues in a clean fashion. > > Errors are exceptional conditions. Handling these in a seperate > thread is inelegant, The term "inelegant" is not a valid arguing point, except for what *you* prefer. I like threads. Fork level processing as implemented under RSX-11 for interrupts (essentially a microthread) is probably some of the most elegant and tight code ever written. > > The existing CAM subsystem would be a *lot* easier to follow/debug > > if it were threads/proc based. >>... > My reasoning for this is that it's possible to construct branch > path validation code from (accurate) UML models, and it is possible > to create formal proofs of code correctness. Point taken. > ... > Having hacked on the VXFS code in UnixWare 2.x at Novell/USG (the > former USL: Hi, Mike and Mike!), I can assure you that the FreeBSD > "kernel process" creation method used to create syncd, swapper, > etc., is more than sufficient to support the VXFS "cleaner" task. > Your Veritas argument is a strawman; they are porting to Linux > because that's where they can get the most press. Yes and no. They do say that 'mindshare' is important. But when I, for instance, argue there to do things under FreeBSD, it's a harder sell w/o a kernel threads model. This isn't probably an 'arch' argument- sorry I brought it up. -matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 15:24:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C64537BB46 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:24:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA19926 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:24:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA00622 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:24:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from alcanet.com.au (mail.alcanet.com.au [203.62.196.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A04B37B8FF for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:24:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeremyp@pc0640.alcatel.com.au) Received: by border.alcanet.com.au id <115209>; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:24:40 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-reply-to: <200004070649.XAA39802@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net>; from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 04:50:38PM +1000 To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Message-Id: <00Apr12.082440est.115209@border.alcanet.com.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <200004070210.UAA95308@harmony.village.org> <200004070649.XAA39802@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:24:39 +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 04:50:38PM +1000, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > From Freefall, what I would call a >pretty good representation of hard core BSD users :-) But probably not a good representation of our total userbase, and an extremely poor (by definition) representation of users who are new to FreeBSD. Replacing csh with tcsh as a default _will_ make the system easier to use for new users. Experts are free to install csh from ports. Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 15:24:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3915137B8FF for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:24:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA19929 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:24:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA00649 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:24:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from alcanet.com.au (mail.alcanet.com.au [203.62.196.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B576E37BB38 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:24:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeremyp@pc0640.alcatel.com.au) Received: by border.alcanet.com.au id <115225>; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:24:43 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev In-reply-to: <200004052123.OAA05958@usr07.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 07:52:00AM +1000 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-Id: <00Apr12.082443est.115225@border.alcanet.com.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <20000404193257.N27486@holly.calldei.com> <200004052123.OAA05958@usr07.primenet.com> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:24:40 +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 07:52:00AM +1000, Terry Lambert wrote: >I really don't know what /dev/std* is for; [deleted] >used in the "open" call -- that's what /dev/fd/* is for). Personally, I find std{in,out,err} more descriptive than /dev/fd/{0,1,2}. As I understand it, POSIX specifes the names rather than the numbers. >One drawback, though, is that the ideal place to do something like >this is by adding a "handler" for a portion of the devfs namespace >(like the /dev/pty/ handler would want to be), Isn't this a job for portals? (Or have I misunderstood their use). Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 15:24:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E0A37BB38 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:24:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA19924 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:24:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA00634 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:24:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from alcanet.com.au (mail.alcanet.com.au [203.62.196.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F7FB37BB13 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:24:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeremyp@pc0640.alcatel.com.au) Received: by border.alcanet.com.au id <115234>; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:24:46 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-reply-to: <200004110008.RAA29263@usr09.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 10:09:30AM +1000 To: Terry Lambert Cc: arch@freebsd.org Message-Id: <00Apr12.082446est.115234@border.alcanet.com.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <200004110008.RAA29263@usr09.primenet.com> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:24:42 +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 10:09:30AM +1000, Terry Lambert wrote: >The problem is not that "csh" scripts from other systems won't run >on "tcsh", the problem is that if someone naievely writes code >thinking that the result will then run on some other box, when in >fact it will not, because that boxes "csh" has not be replaced >with "tcsh". Leaving aside the issue of the sanity of anyone who writes csh scripts... Exactly the same arguments could be made about our C compiler (which supports a number of extensions to ANSI C), our awk (which supports extensions to the language defined in the AWK book), our troff (which includes extensions to ditroff), our tar, our dd, and presumably many others. The obvious solution is to have a 'csh-compatibility' mode (I don't know if tcsh has one or not). Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 15:24:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05F4137BB46 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:24:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA19940 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:24:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA00662 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:24:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from alcanet.com.au (mail.alcanet.com.au [203.62.196.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34A037BB13 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:24:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeremyp@pc0640.alcatel.com.au) Received: by border.alcanet.com.au id <115233>; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:24:45 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-reply-to: <200004062234.PAA91375@apollo.backplane.com>; from dillon@apollo.backplane.com on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 08:37:43AM +1000 To: Matthew Dillon Cc: arch@freebsd.org Message-Id: <00Apr12.082445est.115233@border.alcanet.com.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062121.PAA24162@nomad.yogotech.com> <20000406144502.A25177@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062150.PAA24400@nomad.yogotech.com> <20000406151008.B25607@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062234.PAA91375@apollo.backplane.com> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:24:42 +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 08:37:43AM +1000, Matthew Dillon wrote: > How about not. Just create /bin/tcsh, fixup the default csh.cshrc file > and the default [root] shell and be done with it. Don't complicate things > by trying to remove/replace csh. I disagree. We already have two shells in the base system. I don't see any reason to add a third - especially when csh is mostly an old version of tcsh. Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 15:50:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D656237BB4B for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:50:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA20227 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:50:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA00728 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:50:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D6737BBFC for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:50:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA18057; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:50:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA8YaG.I; Tue Apr 11 15:49:55 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA09708; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:49:55 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004112249.PAA09708@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh To: peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au (Peter Jeremy) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:49:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (Rodney W. Grimes), arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <00Apr12.082440est.115209@border.alcanet.com.au> from "Peter Jeremy" at Apr 12, 2000 08:24:39 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Replacing csh with tcsh as a default _will_ make the system > easier to use for new users. So would replacing the console login with Gnome or KDE... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 15:54:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F5CF37B993 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:54:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA20295 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:54:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA00752 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:54:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C329737BB99 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:53:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA19046; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:52:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAQWaagL; Tue Apr 11 15:52:43 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA09804; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:52:49 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004112252.PAA09804@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev To: peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au (Peter Jeremy) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:52:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <00Apr12.082443est.115225@border.alcanet.com.au> from "Peter Jeremy" at Apr 12, 2000 08:24:40 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >I really don't know what /dev/std* is for; > [deleted] > >used in the "open" call -- that's what /dev/fd/* is for). > > Personally, I find std{in,out,err} more descriptive than /dev/fd/{0,1,2}. > As I understand it, POSIX specifes the names rather than the numbers. I was unable to find it in my copy of "Go Solo 2". I actually find stdio, stdout, stderr to be descriptive of the standard I/O library binding currently in effect (and not really an "fd" thing at all). > >One drawback, though, is that the ideal place to do something like > >this is by adding a "handler" for a portion of the devfs namespace > >(like the /dev/pty/ handler would want to be), > > Isn't this a job for portals? (Or have I misunderstood their use). Not quite a job for portals. A portal lets you treat an instance of a program as a file. We're looking for something that lets you have a process-private view of /dev/fd/*, which wouldn't work if you wre looking at it from another process. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 15:59: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B412937BA31 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:58:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA20374 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:59:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA00769 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:58:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5BF537B8FF for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:58:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA21380; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:58:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAATeaaJP; Tue Apr 11 15:58:16 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA09930; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:58:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004112258.PAA09930@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh To: peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au (Peter Jeremy) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:58:19 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <00Apr12.082446est.115234@border.alcanet.com.au> from "Peter Jeremy" at Apr 12, 2000 08:24:42 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >The problem is not that "csh" scripts from other systems won't run > >on "tcsh", the problem is that if someone naievely writes code > >thinking that the result will then run on some other box, when in > >fact it will not, because that boxes "csh" has not be replaced > >with "tcsh". > > Leaving aside the issue of the sanity of anyone who writes csh > scripts... Exactly the same arguments could be made about our C > compiler (which supports a number of extensions to ANSI C), our awk > (which supports extensions to the language defined in the AWK book), > our troff (which includes extensions to ditroff), our tar, our dd, > and presumably many others. By golly, you're right! 8-). I've made the argument many times that the compier should be an add-in, and one of the options should be TenDRA (or the OSF compiler, on the Alpha), and that we should seperate all assembly code from C code so that we could have C versions of everything, and greatly facilitate porting -- as well as assembly versions being written by the people who own the platforms. I've recently had problems with man pages on another system using real "troff" because of the macro extensions. > The obvious solution is to have a 'csh-compatibility' mode (I don't > know if tcsh has one or not). Actually, a "kernel.turn_off_all_the_platform_specific_extensions=1" is something else I've wanted for BSD's, to let a developer write code that will run on all BSD systems. I think the first BSD platform to get this option will win, in fact, because all commercial developement would immediately move there to target all BSD platforms, instead of one at a time. Don't tell the Linux folks, though... if they steal the idea, then we are doomed... ;^p Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 22: 4:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F6C837B795 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:04:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22929 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:04:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA01381 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:04:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (Ilsa.StevesCafe.com [206.168.13.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0BF737BB91; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:03:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsd@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15393; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:03:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fbsd@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com) Message-Id: <200004120503.XAA15393@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 From: Steve Passe To: Kris Kennaway Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:28:15 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:03:55 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, > On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Steve Passe wrote: > > > expressions. Soooo, whether we replace csh with tcsh or not, I would like > > to add my vote to the list of those suggesting that the "root user" shell > > be /bin/sh right out of the box. Remember that we want to bring people over > > ^tc? > > This seemed to be at odds with the rest of the paragraph: No, I meant /bin/sh, ie bourne shell, as several others have suggested. It is the shell used by most/all of the system scripts, and thus a mandatory part of any system. It is the default shell for a "user". It would be more uniform if it were also the default shell for root. -- Steve Passe | powered by smp@csn.net | Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 11 22:25:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F0237BBE8 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:25:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA23072 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:26:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA01411 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:25:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B2337B795; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:25:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09560; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:55:28 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200004120503.XAA15393@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:55:28 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Steve Passe Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Kris Kennaway Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 12-Apr-00 Steve Passe wrote: > part of any system. It is the default shell for a "user". It would be > more > uniform if it were also the default shell for root. I think 'default shell for a "user"' is a very weak argument since when you make an account (with pw, vipw, sysinstall, etc) you can trivially change the shell.. I don't give new users sh, its umm, yucky :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 12 2:25:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4823737BAEB for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 02:25:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25730 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:12:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA01738 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:11:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CA9637B8AB for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 02:11:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA52291; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 02:10:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200004120910.CAA52291@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: BUF/BIO roadmap. In-Reply-To: <31101.955470228@critter.freebsd.dk> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Apr 11, 2000 06:23:48 pm" To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 02:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Cc: arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > A number of people have suggested this paper "be put in the tree". > > Two questions: > > 1. Should it ? Yes. > 2. In this doc tree or src/share/doc/papers src/share/doc/papers. It goes right along with all of those.. and it might even be hinted at in ``beyond4.3'' but it has been a long time since I read that one so I can't remeber. Similiarly the Archie Cobb Daemon news article on netgraph should probably be brushed up and placed in there. (It has already slightly aged, like the fact that the userland ppp does now use netgraph.) -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 12 6:44:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA0F437B63F for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:44:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29571 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:44:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA02072 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:44:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FB0437B6D7 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:43:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost.freebsd.dk [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA35764 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:43:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: "buildig release" knob in make world/release From: Poul-Henning Kamp Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:43:33 +0200 Message-ID: <35762.955547013@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The recent discussion about making malloc(3) more picky and adding INVARIANTS to kernels during the current cycle came out in favour of the general principle of making CURRENT more picky about mistakes. This begs the question if we should add a top-level knob which sets the entire build, world, release, kernels and modules in one of two modes: CURRENT - enable extra checks. RELEASE - disable extra checks or if we should enable each of these extra checkes individually ? If we agree on one big handle, what should the name be ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 12 7:58:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 453B637B876 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:58:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27203 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:58:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA02174 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:57:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F242337BAE6; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:33:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA32551; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:33:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200004121433.KAA32551@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <35762.955547013@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:33:07 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: RE: "buildig release" knob in make world/release Cc: arch@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 12-Apr-00 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > The recent discussion about making malloc(3) more picky and adding > INVARIANTS to kernels during the current cycle came out in favour > of the general principle of making CURRENT more picky about mistakes. > > This begs the question if we should add a top-level knob which sets > the entire build, world, release, kernels and modules in one of two > modes: > CURRENT - enable extra checks. > RELEASE - disable extra checks How about using DEVELOPMENT and PRODUCTION instead? I think they more clearly convey the meanings of the settings. > or if we should enable each of these extra checkes individually ? I like one big tweakable knob personally. However, what you could do is have a DEVELOPMENT toggle much like NO_PORTS, etc. in make.conf. You could then teach make.conf to set default values of many variables based on the bigger main knob. > If we agree on one big handle, what should the name be ? Umm, SYSTEM_FOCUS perhaps? I assume this would go in /etc/defaults/make.conf? Is there any possiblity of possibly creating an /etc/build.conf instead and cleaning out a lot of the crud in make.conf that has nothing at all to do with configuring make? -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 12 8:39:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C95D37BD14 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:39:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27838 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:38:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA02228 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:38:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0454637BF7E; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:15:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA09192; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:16:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "buildig release" knob in make world/release In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:43:33 +0200." <35762.955547013@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:16:55 -0700 Message-ID: <9189.955552615@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > This begs the question if we should add a top-level knob which sets > the entire build, world, release, kernels and modules in one of two > modes: I agree that there should be a knob, but I see it as a make.conf knob rather than a release knob since most people playing with this stuff build from sources rather than install snapshots. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 12 9:41:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 888C437C05E for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:41:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28606 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:40:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA02355 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:40:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (Ilsa.StevesCafe.com [206.168.13.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 417E037B661 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:36:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smp@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18433; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:36:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from smp@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com) Message-Id: <200004121536.JAA18433@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 From: Steve Passe To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:55:28 +0930." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:36:20 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > On 12-Apr-00 Steve Passe wrote: > > part of any system. It is the default shell for a "user". It would be > > more > > uniform if it were also the default shell for root. > > I think 'default shell for a "user"' is a very weak argument since when > you make an account (with pw, vipw, sysinstall, etc) you can trivially > change the shell.. I don't give new users sh, its umm, yucky :) what do you give a new user for a shell? -- Steve Passe | powered by smp@csn.net | Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 12 12: 5:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E06E37BD0E for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:01:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29908 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:58:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA02620 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:58:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79FE637BEB6 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:27:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost.freebsd.dk [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA00476; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:19:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "buildig release" knob in make world/release In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:16:55 PDT." <9189.955552615@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:19:28 +0200 Message-ID: <474.955563568@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <9189.955552615@zippy.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: >> This begs the question if we should add a top-level knob which sets >> the entire build, world, release, kernels and modules in one of two >> modes: > >I agree that there should be a knob, but I see it as a make.conf >knob rather than a release knob since most people playing with this >stuff build from sources rather than install snapshots. Well, yes, /etc/make.conf were the intended location for it all the time, the question was more if it was wanted or not... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 12 12:14: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C001237BCE5 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:08:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29984 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:07:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA02649 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:06:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E56237BF96; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:23:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28871; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:20:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id MAA39025; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:19:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004121819.MAA39025@harmony.village.org> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: "buildig release" knob in make world/release Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:16:55 PDT." <9189.955552615@zippy.cdrom.com> References: <9189.955552615@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:19:59 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <9189.955552615@zippy.cdrom.com> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: : I agree that there should be a knob, but I see it as a make.conf : knob rather than a release knob since most people playing with this : stuff build from sources rather than install snapshots. Call it SANITY_CHECKING. Have it be a number. 0 == RELEASE, 1 == DEVELOPMENT, 2 == development of risky things, etc. It would default to 1 in -current and 0 in -stable and for all releases. I'm not sure what the '2' level would actually do, but this whole discussion reminded me of the -fblah -fbaz vs -O2 args to gcc, and thought it profitable to do things the same way. Maybe we never have a '2' level, but it gives us that option. It also dodges the issue of naming the various levels :-) Set it in /etc/defaults/make.conf and away you go. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 12 13:25:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9DCA37B87F for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:25:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00682 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 22:25:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA02924 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 22:25:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57BA437B842; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:25:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA34928; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:24:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200004122024.QAA34928@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9189.955552615@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:24:54 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: "buildig release" knob in make world/release Cc: arch@freebsd.org, Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 12-Apr-00 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> This begs the question if we should add a top-level knob which sets >> the entire build, world, release, kernels and modules in one of two >> modes: > > I agree that there should be a knob, but I see it as a make.conf > knob rather than a release knob since most people playing with this > stuff build from sources rather than install snapshots. Err, I read it as a make.conf knob as well. > - Jordan -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 12 14:24:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE53A37BB5D for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:24:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01072 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:24:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA02998 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:24:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11BAF37BC41 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:23:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost.freebsd.dk [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01177; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:23:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Warner Losh Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "buildig release" knob in make world/release In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:19:59 MDT." <200004121819.MAA39025@harmony.village.org> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:23:21 +0200 Message-ID: <1175.955574601@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200004121819.MAA39025@harmony.village.org>, Warner Losh writes: >In message <9189.955552615@zippy.cdrom.com> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: >: I agree that there should be a knob, but I see it as a make.conf >: knob rather than a release knob since most people playing with this >: stuff build from sources rather than install snapshots. > >Call it SANITY_CHECKING. Have it be a number. 0 == RELEASE, 1 == >DEVELOPMENT, 2 == development of risky things, etc. It would default Wouldn't "PARANOIA" or "PARANOIA_LEVEL" be the right thing then ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 12 14:43:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BEDA37B596 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:43:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01180 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:43:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA03037 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:43:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 017A337B5A8; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:41:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02575; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:41:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:41:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: Warner Losh Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Poul-Henning Kamp , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "buildig release" knob in make world/release In-Reply-To: <200004121819.MAA39025@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <9189.955552615@zippy.cdrom.com> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > : I agree that there should be a knob, but I see it as a make.conf > : knob rather than a release knob since most people playing with this > : stuff build from sources rather than install snapshots. > > Call it SANITY_CHECKING. Have it be a number. 0 == RELEASE, 1 == > DEVELOPMENT, 2 == development of risky things, etc. Wouldn't it be easier to set the value of SANITY_CHECKING equal to "DEVELOPMENT" rather than have to remember some kind of code? Also, someone else suggested that "PRODUCTION" is a better definition than "RELEASE", and I agree with that sentiment. Doug -- Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. -- W. Somerset Maugham To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 12 15: 0:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA8937B5A3 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:00:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01349 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:00:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA03087 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:00:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24C4937B5A3; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:59:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29752; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:59:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA40608; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:59:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004122159.PAA40608@harmony.village.org> To: Doug Barton Subject: Re: "buildig release" knob in make world/release Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Poul-Henning Kamp , arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:41:44 PDT." References: Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:59:42 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Doug Barton writes: : Wouldn't it be easier to set the value of SANITY_CHECKING equal to : "DEVELOPMENT" rather than have to remember some kind of code? Also, : someone else suggested that "PRODUCTION" is a better definition than : "RELEASE", and I agree with that sentiment. No. it becomes much harder to write PARANOIA >= 3. Besides, 1 is always 1, but people can bikeshed the whole PRODUCTION/RELEASE/STABLE issue into the ground. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 12 18:37:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E105A37BB27 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:37:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA02893 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 03:37:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id DAA03543 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 03:37:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1164E37BB27 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:37:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05585; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 11:07:14 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200004121536.JAA18433@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 11:07:14 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Steve Passe Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Cc: arch@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 12-Apr-00 Steve Passe wrote: > > I think 'default shell for a "user"' is a very weak argument since > > when > > you make an account (with pw, vipw, sysinstall, etc) you can trivially > > change the shell.. I don't give new users sh, its umm, yucky :) > what do you give a new user for a shell? What ever they ask for usually, and it's not csh (or sh). --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 12 23: 7:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E4837B9C0 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:07:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05082 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:07:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA03860 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:07:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC70137B898 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:07:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA31073; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:07:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id AAA43392; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:07:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004130607.AAA43392@harmony.village.org> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: "buildig release" knob in make world/release Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:23:21 +0200." <1175.955574601@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <1175.955574601@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:07:17 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <1175.955574601@critter.freebsd.dk> Poul-Henning Kamp writes: : Wouldn't "PARANOIA" or "PARANOIA_LEVEL" be the right thing then ? Yes. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 14 10:32:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1BBA37BF27 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:32:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08722 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 19:32:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA07101 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 19:32:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BC0137BF20; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:32:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA59477; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:32:02 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:32:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: going to commit (was: Re: file system extended attributes support) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I sent this out a few days ago, and have thus far received only postive comments. With this in mind, I'm going to go ahead and commit the FFS extended attribute support to 5.0-CURRENT this evening, modulo the following changes -- 1) clean up debugging output 2) possibly have the various baby extattr tools be a single binary that checks argv[0] Are there, at this point, any objections to my committing, or suggestions as to improvements that should be made? Just as a recap: enabling of extended attributes is toggled by the FFS_EXTATTR kernel option, and following that, it must be 1) started for each fs to be used, and 2) specific extended attributes must be explicitely enabled. Current this is done using the extattrctl utility, although I'm contemplating pushing some management info into /etc/fstab as with quotas, or having a startup script that auto-starts attributes in the /.attributes directory on each fs. Auto-starting will wait until I've seen more broad testing with it in the code base. Robert On Mon, 10 Apr 2000, Robert Watson wrote: > As part of the supporting code base for a number of security-related > projects on FreeBSD, I've hacked up extended attribute support for > FreeBSD. This allows arbitrary named attributes to be associated with > each inode, maintained by the kernel. In December, I committed APIs > associated with this code to the FreeBSD repository, and now after a few > months of testing and use, I'd like to commit the code itself to the repo. > Doing so will facilitate the further development of a number of > security-related projects, including the TrustedBSD MAC, ACL, and > Capability support, as well as third party security code such as the > NAI/TIS Labs FreeDTE code. > > This code is similar to the Quota code, in that it stores attributes in > backing files in the file system (or in another file system), and may be > enabled per-FFS partition. My feeling is that this approach allows > maximum flexibility at this point in the life cycle of FreeBSD in terms of > VFS maturity. As the support for stacked file systems matures, I'd be > willing to reconsider the manner in which this is implemented. > > The current version of the code, diff'd from the main repo a few days ago > on the 5.0-CURRENT (head) branch, is available for download at: > > http://www.trustedbsd.org/downloads/ > > It contains a great deal of #ifdef'd debugging code, but also contains > some utilities that can be experimented with. I recommend reading the > extattrctl man page first. The excessive debugging code will be stripped > before committing, and once I'm confident that it works for more than just > the four or five people who've used it thus far :-). > > Thanks, > > Robert N M Watson > > robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ > PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 > TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message > Robert N M Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Apr 15 0:51:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6F437B684 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:51:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18569 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 09:51:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA11644 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 09:51:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp06.wxs.nl (smtp06.wxs.nl [195.121.6.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A339137BFE7; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:50:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.225.122]) by smtp06.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 4.05) with ESMTP id FT1SGP02.HCF; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 09:50:49 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA96297; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 09:50:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 09:50:48 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Steve Passe , arch@freebsd.org, Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000415095048.D87742@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <200004120503.XAA15393@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from doconnor@gsoft.com.au on Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 02:55:28PM +0930 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [20000412 08:01], Daniel O'Connor (doconnor@gsoft.com.au) wrote: > >On 12-Apr-00 Steve Passe wrote: >> part of any system. It is the default shell for a "user". It would >> be more uniform if it were also the default shell for root. > >I think 'default shell for a "user"' is a very weak argument since when >you make an account (with pw, vipw, sysinstall, etc) you can trivially >change the shell.. I don't give new users sh, its umm, yucky :) Then according to your own statement, you would have to visit ports first before even giving your users a choice. Which in turns supports the fact that having either csh or tcsh in the base system is not the way to go. -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project To desire immortality is to desire the eternal perpetuation of a great mistake... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Apr 15 5:39: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A5137B7E4 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 05:38:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19927 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 14:38:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA12046 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 14:38:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from awfulhak.org (tun.AwfulHak.org [194.242.139.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2147B37B695; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 05:38:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.awfulhak.org [172.16.0.12]) by awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA84932; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:39:36 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06780; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:39:29 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <200004151239.NAA06780@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "David E. O'Brien" Cc: cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-Reply-To: Message from "David E. O'Brien" of "Fri, 14 Apr 2000 21:41:48 PDT." <200004150441.VAA23755@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:39:28 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > obrien 2000/04/14 21:41:48 PDT > > src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources > Update of /home/ncvs/src/contrib/tcsh > In directory freefall.freebsd.org:/x/tmp/cvs-serv23701 > > Log Message: > Import the latest version of the 44BSD C-shell -- tcsh-6.09. Well, that was a worthwhile discussion on -arch. I think this commit is out of line. -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Apr 15 8:12:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23F637B5B2 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 08:12:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20934 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:12:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA12372 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:12:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B87737B660; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 08:11:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA14076; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 09:11:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38F886CA.A1E99CDE@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 09:12:10 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Elischer Cc: Terry Lambert , Kirk McKusick , Poul-Henning Kamp , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BUF/BIO roadmap. References: <200004111649.JAA17290@usr01.primenet.com> <38F35AC2.237C228A@elischer.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Julian Elischer wrote: > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Each time interrupt threads comes up, I have to point this > > out: > > > > Lazy Task Creation: A Technique for Increasing > > the Granularity of Parallel Programs > > E. Mohr, D.A. Kranz, and R.H. Halstead, Jr. > > _IEEE Transactions on Parallel and Distributed Systems_ > > July 1991, pages 264-280 > > > > It seems to me that the interrupt threads are an implementation > > of this (10 year old) technology. > > As I have mentionned to you before. Just because something is a > 10 year old idea does not make it bad. I think that making everything a > thread with a blockable context, whether initiate from above or below, > makes a lot of sense and significantly reduces the complexity > of the fine-grained-SMP work that needs to be done. Note that most RTOS implementations take this approach as well. In VxWorks, many interrupt handlers simply "give" a semaphore, allowing the associated driver task to drain the hardware at the programmer- determined correct priority. This also avoids interrupt livelock on saturated systems. > I also would like to point out that handling interupts is a > significant part of hard-realtime, and that if the lowest level of > the interrupt code is kept 'under control' then solutions imposed at > this level in the non threaded case are also applicable in the > threaded case. The lowest level is basically the same until the > control is 'morphed' into a thread. > > It also seems to me that kernel threads are _still_ a significantly > > bad idea, since the problems faced in kernel preemption are a subset > > of the problems faced in Real Time support, and that as a result, it > > will be significantly harder to support Hard Real Time in the future > > without significant revisions of the the OS architecture. > > I believe this to not be the case in reality. Once control has been > handed to an interrupt thread, that thread can be suspended in > favour of the realtime process. This is not an option with the > current system and actually gives a lot of possible options not > presently available in handling RT operations. In a pervasively threaded system, all such contentions can be handled via thread priorities. Complex systems start getting stick when you need to provide guaranteed response to two or more equally critical tasks, but if you need that, you probably need two or more processors as well. One necessity that will happen shortly after providing a pervasively threaded system is the need for a tool to view the interactions of the threads and their priorities at a high level. Any idea that we can get along without one should be erased from your minds now. Since a picture is worth a thousand words, look at http://www.windriver.com/products/html/windview2_ds.html for an example of the type of tool I'm failing to describe. In particular, the "Screen 2" image. > > I view the use of kernel thread context switches as an alternative > > to addressing fine grained parallelism through critical sectioning > > and object locking as a compromise; perhaps not a good one, since > > this will obviously result in register window flushing on RISC > > architectures, such as SPARC. > > The use of "lazy kernel threads" does not significantly alter the > usage of registers from the current usage. In fact, it would be possible to create a special scheduling entity for fast interrupt response on processors like SPARC in which only one or two register windows are opened. This would be adequate for an interrupt task that simply transfers data from a device to memory or vice versa, then returns, like a serial port driver. It's such a good idea I'm now disappointed Wind River hasn't implemented it. ;^) > > It seems to me that the thing to address first is that which > > Dynix addressed first, and which was noted in chapter 12 0f > > Uresh Vahalia's _UNIX Internal: The New Frontiers_, which is > > per processor resource pools with high and low watermarking and > > free resource revocation in low resource conditions. This would > > significantly reduce even the need for bus and lock contention, > > since contention would only occur at high or low watermark, or > > as the result of a resource revocation event in an already > > stressed system. > > There has been no argument that this is probably a good idea in > the long run. The use of lazy kernel threads for interrupt > handling in no way interferes with this as the two features are > orthogonal. > > This is only my opinion and not absolute truth. however it would be > good to get people to discuss this topic a bit more specifically > those from BSDI who have experience with the actual implementation. Talking to people with real experience in the task at hand is rarely a bad idea. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Apr 15 8:24:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96C5637B702 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 08:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20980 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:24:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA12406 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:24:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from midget.dons.net.au (daniel.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.137.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8873137B702; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 08:23:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from darius@guppy.dons.net.au) Received: from guppy.dons.net.au (guppy.dons.net.au [203.31.81.9]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA81788; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:52:56 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from darius@guppy.dons.net.au) Received: (from darius@localhost) by guppy.dons.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00505; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:52:53 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from darius) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000415095048.D87742@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:52:53 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Cc: Kris Kennaway , arch@freebsd.org, Steve Passe , "Daniel O'Connor" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 15-Apr-00 Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >>I think 'default shell for a "user"' is a very weak argument since when >>you make an account (with pw, vipw, sysinstall, etc) you can trivially >>change the shell.. I don't give new users sh, its umm, yucky :) > Then according to your own statement, you would have to visit ports > first before even giving your users a choice. Which in turns supports > the fact that having either csh or tcsh in the base system is not the > way to go. True, but this has nothing to do with the fact that I would like tcsh to be the default shell when I freshly install FreeBSD. I would settle for a knob in sysinstall which did it :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Apr 15 8:54:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 938CA37B852 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 08:54:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21127 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:54:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA12511 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:54:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6714C37B852 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 08:54:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA01104 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:54:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:54:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: tcsh import comments Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG So far I don't see any problem with the import. We now have a csh-centric shell that: o Has a far more flexible and user-centric interface (not just for scripts) o Provides strong backwards compatibility with our existing csh (we should do some in-depth tests to confirm this) o Provides stronger locale support than csh or sh, improving support for localization in the base FreeBSD OS At this point, I'd prefer to see tcsh attached to the build tree as /bin/tcsh for compatibility with the BSD/OS source base, and /bin/csh retained for portability until we've managed to do a thorough script interop. Give that our sh is not exactly a boring and straight-laced line-mode shell (set -o emacs), I think it makes sense for us to update our csh also. Robert N M Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Apr 15 12:24: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E602037B5D4 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:24:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22129 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 21:24:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA12982 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 21:24:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9120D37B55A; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:23:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost.freebsd.dk [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA01212; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 21:23:15 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Brian Somers Cc: "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:39:28 BST." <200004151239.NAA06780@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 21:23:15 +0200 Message-ID: <1210.955826595@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200004151239.NAA06780@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org>, Brian Somers writes: >> obrien 2000/04/14 21:41:48 PDT >> >> src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources >> Update of /home/ncvs/src/contrib/tcsh >> In directory freefall.freebsd.org:/x/tmp/cvs-serv23701 >> >> Log Message: >> Import the latest version of the 44BSD C-shell -- tcsh-6.09. > >Well, that was a worthwhile discussion on -arch. I think this >commit is out of line. I didn't quite feel it like a concensus either, did anyone keep a score-board ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Apr 15 14:14:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E73D837B591 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 14:14:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22550 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 23:14:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA13120 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 23:14:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 394FF37B62B; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 14:13:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA44409; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:13:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA28692; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:13:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004152113.PAA28692@harmony.village.org> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Cc: Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 Apr 2000 21:23:15 +0200." <1210.955826595@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <1210.955826595@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:13:13 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <1210.955826595@critter.freebsd.dk> Poul-Henning Kamp writes: : I didn't quite feel it like a concensus either, did anyone keep : a score-board ? From my reading, there were two issues. One was tcsh and the second was root account. The second issue was fairly unanimous: Don't change root's default shell's name (despite some pleas from one or two people to do so). The first issue was unclear. People generally argued against this due to size, but said they'd be happy enough with a port of the older csh. This was especially true amoung the embedded folks that posted. There was some minor desire to make sure that there were no scripts that were broken by this, as well as some desire to make sure that a csh compatible set of .cshrc for tcsh could be done. The scripting compatibility issue remaining open, iirc. The .cshrc issue mostly was resolved in the exchange between David (I think) and Rod Grimes (for sure) about the nits of hitting escape vs hitting tab. Given that this was about as clear a consensus as I think I've seen in a while on an emotional issue, I think that David did the right thing and continue to support it. With one caveat: If it turns out that this breaks a lot of people, then we back it out. We have about a year until 4.0 comes out, so we'll have plenty of time to find those people who it breaks, if any. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Apr 15 15: 1:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9079A37B55B for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:01:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22838 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:01:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA13191 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:01:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD37337B78C; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:01:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asami@cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.hip.berkeley.edu (sji-ca7-28.ix.netcom.com [209.109.235.28]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA31807; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:00:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.hip.berkeley.edu (8.9.3/8.6.9) id PAA19389; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:00:09 -0700 (PDT) To: Warner Losh Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources References: <1210.955826595@critter.freebsd.dk> <200004152113.PAA28692@harmony.village.org> From: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) Date: 15 Apr 2000 15:00:02 -0700 In-Reply-To: Warner Losh's message of "Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:13:13 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * From: Warner Losh * The first issue was unclear. People generally argued against this due * to size, but said they'd be happy enough with a port of the older * csh. This was especially true amoung the embedded folks that posted. I wouldn't say "people generally" argued against" it. Peter Wemm, myself and a lot of other committers supported it, saying that tcsh is just a newer and maintained version of our old csh. I do remember people setting up strawman arguments about embedded systems just to be knocked down by the embedded folks themselves. :> Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Apr 15 15: 5:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F2C37B5C6 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:05:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22894 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:05:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA13233 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:05:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1256537B525; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:05:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA44561; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:05:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA29099; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:05:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004152205.QAA29099@harmony.village.org> To: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "15 Apr 2000 15:00:02 PDT." References: <1210.955826595@critter.freebsd.dk> <200004152113.PAA28692@harmony.village.org> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:05:04 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami writes: : I wouldn't say "people generally" argued against" it. Peter Wemm, : myself and a lot of other committers supported it, saying that tcsh is : just a newer and maintained version of our old csh. Agreed. Those that argued against it sited size. : I do remember people setting up strawman arguments about embedded : systems just to be knocked down by the embedded folks themselves. :> Well, I am an embedded folk and argued for the change. However, my boss argued against, so that more than cancels me out :-) Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Apr 15 15:13:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4653137B522 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:13:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22970 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:13:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA13250 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:13:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C60437B522; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:12:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asami@cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.hip.berkeley.edu (sji-ca7-28.ix.netcom.com [209.109.235.28]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA13523; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:12:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.hip.berkeley.edu (8.9.3/8.6.9) id PAA19504; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:12:16 -0700 (PDT) To: Warner Losh Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources References: <1210.955826595@critter.freebsd.dk> <200004152113.PAA28692@harmony.village.org> <200004152205.QAA29099@harmony.village.org> From: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) Date: 15 Apr 2000 15:12:15 -0700 In-Reply-To: Warner Losh's message of "Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:05:04 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * From: Warner Losh * : I wouldn't say "people generally" argued against" it. Peter Wemm, * : myself and a lot of other committers supported it, saying that tcsh is * : just a newer and maintained version of our old csh. * * Agreed. Those that argued against it sited size. Ok, if that's what you meant by "generally", I agree. Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Apr 15 16:18:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D792D37B69E for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:18:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA23389 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:18:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA13340 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:18:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (peter1.yahoo.com [208.48.107.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9D9137B79A; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:18:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Received: from netplex.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.netplex.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33B311CD7; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:18:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Warner Losh Cc: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami), Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-Reply-To: Message from Warner Losh of "Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:05:04 MDT." <200004152205.QAA29099@harmony.village.org> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:18:05 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > In message Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami writes: > : I wouldn't say "people generally" argued against" it. Peter Wemm, > : myself and a lot of other committers supported it, saying that tcsh is > : just a newer and maintained version of our old csh. > > Agreed. Those that argued against it sited size. > > : I do remember people setting up strawman arguments about embedded > : systems just to be knocked down by the embedded folks themselves. :> > > Well, I am an embedded folk and argued for the change. However, my > boss argued against, so that more than cancels me out :-) > > Warner What I saw was something like this: - the people complaining about the size started yelling, and if you saw only the first day or two of the discussion, you'd have got a pretty one-sided view of opinion (ie: don't do it). - Then, once people who liked and used tcsh saw the way the discussion was going, they jumped in and (IMHO) there was an overall concensus to do it, with a couple of holdouts mostly on the size issue. The way I read things, there were several basic groups of opinions: 1: why the hell are we shipping csh anyway, and with root using it by default?? I change root's login immediately after install! 2: I love my csh and will die before using anything else! 3: If we are going to ship a csh, it might as well be the more usable and more up to date tcsh. Most of this group didn't seem to care what root's default shell was or were in favour of root being sh by default. #2 is taken care of by the csh port. The people inconvenienced by having to install a csh port is *far* smaller than the group inconvenienced by having to install the tcsh port. People in group 1 really aren't affected all that much if csh == tcsh as they don't use it anyway (apart from the size - I guess Yet Another build option could fix that). FreeBSD is *far* from an ideal embedded OS target by default - a lot of trimming is required, tcsh vs csh is a drop in the ocean compared to other things (eg: the wasted space in /modules). IMHO, the way to keep most people happy (or least unhappy :-]) is to finish the tcsh thing, and change root's shell to /bin/sh and probably change the default new-user shell to sh as well if it isn't already. I know a lot of people stopped reading the thread fairly early on. Please refrain from commenting unless you go back and read the thread to completion - lets not have the same things argued about all over again. (This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just a general request). Cheers, -Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Apr 15 16:58:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FD5F37B7B3 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:58:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA23590 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:58:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA13389 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:58:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5359337B673 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:57:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id QAA26248 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:57:22 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda26246; Sat Apr 15 16:57:11 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA17798 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cwsys9.cwsent.com(10.2.2.1), claiming to be "cwsys.cwsent.com" via SMTP by passer9.cwsent.com, id smtpdP17796; Sat Apr 15 16:56:52 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cwsys.cwsent.com (8.10.1/8.9.1) id e3FNup102274 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> Received: from localhost.cwsent.com(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "cwsys" via SMTP by localhost.cwsent.com, id smtpdLR2271; Sat Apr 15 16:56:32 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE X-Sender: cy To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Shells Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:56:26 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any plans to replace sh with bash. Granted they're not 100% compatible, though my only experience with bash vs sh incompatibility was over 6 years ago on a Linux system, I still think it's a good idea to replace sh with bash. Another point to consider is that most people install who use a Bourne Shell the bash port, just like Csh users install the tcsh port. I think fewer people would be inconvenienced by the replacement of sh with bash than by not doing so. Anyone care to comment? Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message