From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:56:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69D1D37B5AC for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:56:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26462 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:56:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00331 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:56:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lucifer.bart.nl (lucifer.bart.nl [194.158.168.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 557B837B909; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:19:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@lucifer.bart.nl) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by lucifer.bart.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA73702; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:18:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:18:30 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven To: Warner Losh Cc: chris@calldei.com, Peter Wemm , Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami , Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000416111830.A73679@lucifer.bart.nl> References: <20000415203009.B99830@holly.calldei.com> <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> <20000416024118.A71475@lucifer.bart.nl> <20000415203009.B99830@holly.calldei.com> <200004160251.UAA30165@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004160251.UAA30165@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 08:51:18PM -0600 Organisation: bART Internet Services B.V. Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [20000416 04:55], Warner Losh (imp@village.org) wrote: > >Also, having tcsh move into the main system means that root can use it >in single user w/o having to mount /usr/local/bin. If you use the >port, you have to put up with csh until you can get /usr/local/bin >mounted. Create a metaport in ports which links the shell statically and puts it in /bin. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven Network- and systemadministrator VIA NET.WORKS The Netherlands BSD: Technical excellence at its best http://www.bart.nl Distance lends enhancement to the view... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:56:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7475F37B988 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:56:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26472 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:56:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00376 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:56:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 812EA37B513 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 23:24:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA65436; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:23:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:23:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200004160623.IAA65436@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Reply-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-arch In-Reply-To: <8davni$onp$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> Organization: Administration TU Clausthal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In list.freebsd-arch Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any > plans to replace sh with bash. Granted they're not 100% compatible, > though my only experience with bash vs sh incompatibility was over 6 > years ago on a Linux system, I still think it's a good idea to replace > sh with bash. > > Another point to consider is that most people install who use a Bourne > Shell the bash port, just like Csh users install the tcsh port. I > think fewer people would be inconvenienced by the replacement of sh > with bash than by not doing so. > > Anyone care to comment? Why not zsh? -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:56:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0D3F37B9B2 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:56:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26468 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:56:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00360 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:56:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C31C37B871; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:53:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asami@cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.hip.berkeley.edu (sji-ca7-28.ix.netcom.com [209.109.235.28]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA22668; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.hip.berkeley.edu (8.9.3/8.6.9) id BAA21319; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:49:20 -0700 (PDT) To: Peter Wemm Cc: Warner Losh , Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources References: <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> From: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) Date: 16 Apr 2000 01:49:02 -0700 In-Reply-To: Peter Wemm's message of "Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:18:05 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 19 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * From: Peter Wemm * IMHO, the way to keep most people happy (or least unhappy :-]) is to finish * the tcsh thing, and change root's shell to /bin/sh and probably change the * default new-user shell to sh as well if it isn't already. I agree with everything except for this part. The root's shell in BSD has always been csh for as long as I can remember, and it will violate POLA to change it now. (This is from a person who will immediately run bash in single-user mode if /usr/local is available and sh -E if it is not, so don't take it as a csh crusade.) Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "default new-user shell" but if you leave the shell part empty in the password entry for a new user, he will get sh. This has also been the behavior of BSD for as long as I can remember (and it probably goes back to the single Unix days) and obviously doesn't need any changing either. Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:57: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15F2E37B94B for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:56:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26466 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:56:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00352 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:56:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B2337B759 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:05:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustident!@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15488; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:05:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38F8983F.C2900F6B@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 10:26:39 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Peter Jeremy , "Rodney W. Grimes" , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: <200004112249.PAA09708@usr09.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Replacing csh with tcsh as a default _will_ make the system > > easier to use for new users. > > So would replacing the console login with Gnome or KDE... We already do this, if you choose one of the "workstation" installations. In particular, choosing WindowMaker also installs and configures WDM. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:57:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 746A737B573 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:57:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26479 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00420 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0777037B966; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:41:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA07514; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:40:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200004160340.UAA07514@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <20000416024118.A71475@lucifer.bart.nl> from Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven at "Apr 16, 2000 02:41:19 am" To: asmodai@bart.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Cc: peter@netplex.com.au (Peter Wemm), imp@village.org (Warner Losh), asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami), phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp), brian@Awfulhak.org (Brian Somers), obrien@freebsd.org (David E. O'Brien), cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > This subject is religious and the only way I can envision to quiet > everyone once and for all, is to just remove (t)csh and keep sh in the > base. I can even agree to that compromise, and I kinda thought that would be the way the discussion headed, but instead it dropped to silence. -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:57:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEF4E37B590 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:57:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26483 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00440 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32AE437B56B for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:07:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA45333; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 21:07:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id VAA30436; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 21:06:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004160306.VAA30436@harmony.village.org> To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Subject: Re: Shells Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:56:26 PDT." <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> References: <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 21:06:57 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group writes: : With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any : plans to replace sh with bash. Granted they're not 100% compatible, What does this mean. If it means that sh scripts won't run on BASH, then I'd say the odds are very low. tcsh runs all csh scripts as far as I know. No examples were held up in the last batch of shell jihads. : Another point to consider is that most people install who use a Bourne : Shell the bash port, just like Csh users install the tcsh port. I : think fewer people would be inconvenienced by the replacement of sh : with bash than by not doing so. : : Anyone care to comment? My concerns would be compatibility with the existing system and size. If it bloats the current /bin/sh to much larger than the 400k it has become, then I'd be reluctant. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:57:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A581737B590 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26491 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00468 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5239837B8BD; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 19:48:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA45222; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:48:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id UAA30122; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:48:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004160248.UAA30122@harmony.village.org> To: Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Cc: Peter Wemm , Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami , Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:41:19 +0200." <20000416024118.A71475@lucifer.bart.nl> References: <20000416024118.A71475@lucifer.bart.nl> <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:48:13 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000416024118.A71475@lucifer.bart.nl> Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven writes: : Why sport csh or tcsh in the first place? Because this is BSD. BSD origniated csh and many people expect BSD to have csh of some flavor. : What is the gain versus having it in ports? Make world keeps it up to date. : As I said before, csh/tcsh is not the standard shell needed for : POSIX/SUS(v2) compliance. So? Neither is mergemaster. Yet we have it. That's not the reason csh is in the tree. : Scriptwriters should not depend on its presence, they should be writing : for /bin/sh instead. That's a specious argument. Few people write csh scripts, although some folks do. That's not why we have it in the first place. csh is an interactive shell. : Like I said to David, I have yet to hear a good (counter)argument to the : points I present to support csh or tcsh or any other shell than sh in : the base system. I didn't reply to that because it seemed to be so far from reality that I didn't know how to reply. : This subject is religious and the only way I can envision to quiet : everyone once and for all, is to just remove (t)csh and keep sh in the : base. *VETO* I *STRONGLY* disagree with this. That would make me yell and fuss and scream even louder than the kill it camp. And I don't think I'd be alone. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:57:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C479F37B7CD for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:57:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26487 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00452 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C3437B577; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 19:50:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA03711; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 22:49:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 22:49:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: Peter Wemm Cc: Warner Losh , Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami , Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Peter, I general I agree with your summary, but would like to object changing the root shell at this point. I'd also like to throw in that I think moving towards a shell with decent locality support is a good idea--sh does not have this right now, so I'd object to switching to sh until we get localization support for error messages. I may be wrong in my reading of the source, but it looks like tcsh comes out of the box with support for messages in English, French, German, Greek, Italian, Japanese, and Spanish. Could someone comment on the current localization status of both our current sh, and any other proposed alternatives for a root shell? I admit I come at this as a csh person who would really prefer to see csh continue to be the root shell (maximizing consistency from the perspective of documentation :-), but I think localization and internationalize are important issues in UI-centric changes such as this. Robert N M Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:57:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA23937BBCF for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:57:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26503 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00528 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C5937B687 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:42:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id RAA26403; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:42:23 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda26401; Sat Apr 15 17:42:11 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id RAA17931; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200004160042.RAA17931@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Received: from localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "passer.osg.gov.bc.ca" via SMTP by localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpdM17926; Sat Apr 15 17:41:48 2000 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE X-Mailer: nmh 1.0.3, Exmh 2.1.1 X-Sender: cschuber To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:02:54 PDT." <20000415180254.T4381@fw.wintelcom.net> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:41:47 -0700 From: Cy Schubert Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000415180254.T4381@fw.wintelcom.net>, Alfred Perlstein writes: > * Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group [00041 > 5 17:26] wrote: > > With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any > > plans to replace sh with bash. Granted they're not 100% compatible, > > though my only experience with bash vs sh incompatibility was over 6 > > years ago on a Linux system, I still think it's a good idea to replace > > sh with bash. > > A lot of messages in the tcsh import thread explain why bash is not > going to replace /bin/sh. Sorry, the search of -arch said it was "not available". I'll do a manual look-see through the archives myself instead. Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:57:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5A0F37B96D for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26495 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00492 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from holly.calldei.com (adsl-208-191-146-189.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [208.191.146.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 372A337B7B5; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:31:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.calldei.com) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA01205; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:30:10 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:30:09 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven Cc: Peter Wemm , Warner Losh , Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami , Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000415203009.B99830@holly.calldei.com> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> <20000416024118.A71475@lucifer.bart.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i In-Reply-To: <20000416024118.A71475@lucifer.bart.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sunday, April 16, 2000, Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven wrote: > -On [20000416 01:20], Peter Wemm (peter@netplex.com.au) wrote: > >IMHO, the way to keep most people happy (or least unhappy :-]) is to finish > >the tcsh thing, and change root's shell to /bin/sh and probably change the > >default new-user shell to sh as well if it isn't already. > As I said before, csh/tcsh is not the standard shell needed for > POSIX/SUS(v2) compliance. > Scriptwriters should not depend on its presence, they should be writing > for /bin/sh instead. When will you rewrite vgrind(1) and rip out csh from under all the csh users' feet? Just because 80% of the people (if not more) think csh is horrible, doesn't mean that we should just completely remove it without putting anything remotely resembling it in its place. -- |Chris Costello |Earth is 98% full...please delete anyone you can. `------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:57:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E175037BBC9 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:57:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26497 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00508 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90BF837B7C2 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:01:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e3G1TGC04101; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:29:16 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells Message-ID: <20000415182916.U4381@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000415180254.T4381@fw.wintelcom.net> <200004160042.RAA17931@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004160042.RAA17931@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca>; from cschuber@uumail.gov.bc.ca on Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 05:41:47PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Cy Schubert [000415 18:10] wrote: > In message <20000415180254.T4381@fw.wintelcom.net>, Alfred Perlstein writes: > > * Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group [00041 > > 5 17:26] wrote: > > > With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any > > > plans to replace sh with bash. Granted they're not 100% compatible, > > > though my only experience with bash vs sh incompatibility was over 6 > > > years ago on a Linux system, I still think it's a good idea to replace > > > sh with bash. > > > > A lot of messages in the tcsh import thread explain why bash is not > > going to replace /bin/sh. > > Sorry, the search of -arch said it was "not available". I'll do a manual > look-see through the archives myself instead. Two reasons of the top of my head: GPL'd and gratuitously incompatible. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:57:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E93C37BC59 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:57:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26511 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00559 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pawn.primelocation.net (pawn.primelocation.net [205.161.238.235]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C81C37B74C for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:13:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdf.lists@fxp.org) Received: by pawn.primelocation.net (Postfix, from userid 1016) id DC3CC9EB2; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:13:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pawn.primelocation.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB649BCE0; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:13:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:13:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Chris D. Faulhaber" X-Sender: cdf.lists@pawn.primelocation.net To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells In-Reply-To: <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 15 Apr 2000, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any > plans to replace sh with bash. Granted they're not 100% compatible, > though my only experience with bash vs sh incompatibility was over 6 > years ago on a Linux system, I still think it's a good idea to replace > sh with bash. > If you were to replace /bin/sh, why not follow OpenBSD's (NetBSD's?) lead and import pdksh...getting sh and ksh at once? ----- Chris D. Faulhaber - jedgar@fxp.org - jedgar@FreeBSD.org -------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD: The Power To Serve - http://www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:57:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24C6B37BCA0 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:57:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26515 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00567 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 562FF37B8F6; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:05:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA75840; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 23:05:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 23:05:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200004160305.XAA75840@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: Warner Losh Cc: cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <200004160248.UAA30122@harmony.village.org> References: <20000416024118.A71475@lucifer.bart.nl> <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> <200004160248.UAA30122@harmony.village.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just correcting a misapprehension... < said: > In message <20000416024118.A71475@lucifer.bart.nl> Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven writes: > : As I said before, csh/tcsh is not the standard shell needed for > : POSIX/SUS(v2) compliance. csh is specified in the POSIX UPE (User Mumblefrotz Extension) IIRC. -GAWollman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:57:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6117637BCB8 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:57:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26507 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00540 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 085AA37B804 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:35:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e3G12sv03529; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:02:54 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells Message-ID: <20000415180254.T4381@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com>; from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca on Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 04:56:26PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group [000415 17:26] wrote: > With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any > plans to replace sh with bash. Granted they're not 100% compatible, > though my only experience with bash vs sh incompatibility was over 6 > years ago on a Linux system, I still think it's a good idea to replace > sh with bash. A lot of messages in the tcsh import thread explain why bash is not going to replace /bin/sh. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:57:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3903A37BCBE for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:57:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26519 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00575 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE2ED37B9B0 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:07:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from naddy@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id FAA17350; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 05:07:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from naddy@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA67856; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 05:06:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 05:06:01 +0200 (CEST) From: Christian Weisgerber Message-Id: <200004160306.FAA67856@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> To: Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd.arch In-Reply-To: <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG (Are shell wars really appropriate to -arch?) In article <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> you write: > With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any > plans to replace sh with bash. Granted they're not 100% compatible, > though my only experience with bash vs sh incompatibility was over 6 > years ago on a Linux system, bash is reputed to execute scripts rather slowly. I don't know if this still holds true for the current version. It definitely is rather large, though. (Side note: Incompatibilities between bash and sh fall into two categories: 1. Comparing a POSIX shell (bash) with a traditional Bourne shell. This is a non-issue since our sh is a POSIX shell, too. 2. General upwards compatibility issues, i.e. the existence of additional pre-defined variables, commands, etc in the name space. This was already rare those six years ago, and as Linux has become _a_, if not _the_ major unix platform since, any offending scripts have been fixed. I don't think replacing sh by bash is an issue. If there's a question, then that's whether bash should be _added_ alongside sh. Note that bash's license (GPL) makes an inclusion into the tree unattractive. Personally, I think the addition of a _Korn shell_ should be worth some consideration. Candidates are pdksh, which is of similar size to our sh and could quite possibly replace it as well (as done on OpenBSD), or maybe ksh93, if AT&T's license should allow this. Some facts: * {,/usr}/bin/ksh is widely provided on commercial unices and is actually ksh88 there. * pdksh implements a substantial subset of ksh88, with some deviations for POSIX compatibility. It is in the public domain(!). * ksh93 implements a superset of ksh88, with some deviations for POSIX compatibility. It is under AT&T's open source(?) license . (If anybody has managed to actually understand this thing, please provide details.) * NetBSD uses pdksh for /bin/ksh (and a relative of our sh for /bin/sh). OpenBSD uses pdksh for /bin/sh and /bin/ksh. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:57:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E2A637BCFE for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:57:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26529 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00599 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from lucifer.bart.nl (lucifer.bart.nl [194.158.168.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 913F837B6FD; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:41:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@lucifer.bart.nl) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by lucifer.bart.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA71519; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:41:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:41:19 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven To: Peter Wemm Cc: Warner Losh , Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami , Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000416024118.A71475@lucifer.bart.nl> References: <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au>; from peter@netplex.com.au on Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 04:18:05PM -0700 Organisation: bART Internet Services B.V. Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [20000416 01:20], Peter Wemm (peter@netplex.com.au) wrote: >IMHO, the way to keep most people happy (or least unhappy :-]) is to finish >the tcsh thing, and change root's shell to /bin/sh and probably change the >default new-user shell to sh as well if it isn't already. Why sport csh or tcsh in the first place? What is the gain versus having it in ports? As I said before, csh/tcsh is not the standard shell needed for POSIX/SUS(v2) compliance. Scriptwriters should not depend on its presence, they should be writing for /bin/sh instead. >I know a lot of people stopped reading the thread fairly early on. Please >refrain from commenting unless you go back and read the thread to >completion - lets not have the same things argued about all over again. >(This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just a general request). I read the whole thread, and posted a summary of it to -arch. Like I said to David, I have yet to hear a good (counter)argument to the points I present to support csh or tcsh or any other shell than sh in the base system. This subject is religious and the only way I can envision to quiet everyone once and for all, is to just remove (t)csh and keep sh in the base. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven Network- and systemadministrator VIA NET.WORKS The Netherlands BSD: Technical excellence at its best http://www.bart.nl Fame is the perfume of heroic deeds... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:58: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CB437BD30 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:57:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26527 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00591 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from msk2.mail.ru (mx2.mail.ru [194.67.23.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FEC237B693 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:41:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kabaev@mail.ru) Received: from h0050da20495b.ne.mediaone.net ([24.147.104.88] helo=kan.ne.mediaone.net) by msk2.mail.ru with esmtp (Exim 3.02 #178) id 12gdCb-000Fo9-00; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:46:18 +0400 Received: (from kan@localhost) by kan.ne.mediaone.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01334; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:41:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from kan) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 00:41:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Alexander N. Kabaev" To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Subject: RE: Shells Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Idea to replace sh with bash, pdksh, ksh, zsh ... whatever (take your peek) has been beaten do death on these mailing lists already. And general consensus is that it is remarkably BAD idea. Please do some research in mailing lists archives before posting... I hope there is not a chance in a hell that bash will ever be considered for inclusion into the base source tree. Apart from it's poor sh compatibility and unnecessary code bloat it is also under GPL which hardly qualifies it for an inclusion as primary shell into BSD system. What's wrong with bash in ports anyway? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:58: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D73DC37BBC9 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:57:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26535 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00607 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA6A37B69B for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:32:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id RAA26374 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:32:23 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda26372; Sat Apr 15 17:32:11 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id RAA17898 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cwsys9.cwsent.com(10.2.2.1), claiming to be "cwsys.cwsent.com" via SMTP by passer9.cwsent.com, id smtpdZ17896; Sat Apr 15 17:31:56 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cwsys.cwsent.com (8.10.1/8.9.1) id e3G0Vt302555 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200004160031.e3G0Vt302555@cwsys.cwsent.com> Received: from localhost.cwsent.com(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "cwsys" via SMTP by localhost.cwsent.com, id smtpdJe2549; Sat Apr 15 17:31:27 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE X-Sender: cy To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Shells V2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:31:26 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG My first posting was so incoherent, I'm embarrassed to have my name on it. So I'll do it better this time. BTW, any job worth doing is worth doing twice :) With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any plans to replace sh with bash? Granted they're not 100% compatible, though my only experience with bash vs sh incompatibility was over 6 years ago on a Linux system, I still think it might be a good idea to replace sh with bash. Another point to consider is that most people who use a Bourne Shell install and use the bash2 port, just like Csh users install and use the tcsh port. I think that fewer people would be inconvenienced by the replacement of sh with bash than there currently are of those who install and use the bash2 port. If replacing sh with bash is unpalatable for some or most of us, what about putting bash2 in the base system along side of sh? The only arguments I can see against this are: 1. Bash isn't 100% compatible with sh, but I've only experienced this once over my UNIX career. 2. Bloat. FreeBSD was small when I first started to use it (2.0.5). Anyone care to comment? Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 3:57:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319A437BCC1 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 03:57:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26523 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00583 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:57:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65AD037B896; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 19:51:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA45247; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:51:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id UAA30165; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:51:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004160251.UAA30165@harmony.village.org> To: chris@calldei.com Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven , Peter Wemm , Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami , Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:30:09 CDT." <20000415203009.B99830@holly.calldei.com> References: <20000415203009.B99830@holly.calldei.com> <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> <20000416024118.A71475@lucifer.bart.nl> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:51:18 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000415203009.B99830@holly.calldei.com> Chris Costello writes: : When will you rewrite vgrind(1) and rip out csh from under all : the csh users' feet? Just because 80% of the people (if not : more) think csh is horrible, doesn't mean that we should just : completely remove it without putting anything remotely resembling : it in its place. Agreed. This is BSD. People expect a csh like thing. tcsh is a csh like thing that will keep them happy. You'll alianate a *LOT* of people if you do this. Also, having tcsh move into the main system means that root can use it in single user w/o having to mount /usr/local/bin. If you use the port, you have to put up with csh until you can get /usr/local/bin mounted. And sometimes that's not desirable at all. Removing both from the system would force the admin to use sh, which is not accpetible to a large portion of the user community, despite what some people's views are. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 4: 6:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AEE037B85D for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:06:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26583 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:06:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA00636 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:06:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 929BD37B986 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:05:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA27316; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:07:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Warner Losh Cc: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 Apr 2000 21:06:57 MDT." <200004160306.VAA30436@harmony.village.org> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:07:00 -0700 Message-ID: <27309.955883220@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > What does this mean. If it means that sh scripts won't run on BASH, sh scripts run fine on bash and I'll certainly challenge anyone to find me a /bin/sh script which behaves differently when fed to our 5.0-current ash shell vs bash 2.03. Since we've started this whole "commit the superset shell in favor of advanced user friendliness" argument, one supposes that replacing /bin/csh with tcsh and /bin/sh with bash2 with be merely orthoginal. Both options have also, it must be pointed out, been already taken by other flavors of *ix with far larger user bases than FreeBSD's and it can probably be reasonably supposed that these arguments have already taken place and been reasonably well-resolved or their own switch-overs would not have happened. I see /bin/sh as bash on probably every linux system I've ever used and linux's ability to run arbitrary "popular shell scripts" has not, to my knowledge, ever been brought into serious question. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 4: 9:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4784337B69B for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:09:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26593 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:09:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA00672 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:09:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9693037B69B for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:09:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA31348; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:10:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:29:16 PDT." <20000415182916.U4381@fw.wintelcom.net> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:10:32 -0700 Message-ID: <31345.955883432@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Two reasons of the top of my head: GPL'd and gratuitously incompatible. GPL'd things go into /usr/src/gnu - no big deal. If we were overly squeamish about the GPL then we wouldn't have "grep" or a compiler toolchain either, among other things, and I doubt anybody's arguing for killing those. The ash shell is just bad enough that I'd consider a change of license for a truly functional shell out-of-the-box to be a more than acceptable trade-off. As to the second argument, you'll have to explain yourself, sonny. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 4:17:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A275737BC13 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:17:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26629 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:17:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA00745 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:17:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8359037B537; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:17:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asami@cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.hip.berkeley.edu (sji-ca7-28.ix.netcom.com [209.109.235.28]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA16412; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 07:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.hip.berkeley.edu (8.9.3/8.6.9) id EAA22092; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:13:04 -0700 (PDT) To: Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven Cc: Warner Losh , chris@calldei.com, Peter Wemm , Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources References: <20000415203009.B99830@holly.calldei.com> <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> <20000416024118.A71475@lucifer.bart.nl> <20000415203009.B99830@holly.calldei.com> <200004160251.UAA30165@harmony.village.org> <20000416111830.A73679@lucifer.bart.nl> From: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) Date: 16 Apr 2000 04:12:40 -0700 In-Reply-To: Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven's message of "Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:18:30 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * From: Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven * Create a metaport in ports which links the shell statically and puts it * in /bin. But we cannot create a package for that "port". Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 4:18:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27D1237B897 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:18:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26641 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:18:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA00759 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:18:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from urban.iinet.net.au (urban.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1AA337B85D for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:18:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from popserver-02.iinet.net.au (popserver-02.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.148]) by urban.iinet.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA17465; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:18:12 +0800 Received: from jules.elischer.org (reggae-01-122.nv.iinet.net.au [203.59.62.122]) by popserver-02.iinet.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA32261; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:18:09 +0800 Message-ID: <38F9A104.3F54BC7E@elischer.org> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:16:51 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells References: <31345.955883432@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Two reasons of the top of my head: GPL'd and gratuitously incompatible. > > GPL'd things go into /usr/src/gnu - no big deal. If we were overly > squeamish about the GPL then we wouldn't have "grep" or a compiler > toolchain either, among other things, and I doubt anybody's arguing > for killing those. The ash shell is just bad enough that I'd consider > a change of license for a truly functional shell out-of-the-box to > be a more than acceptable trade-off. From the perspective of a company using FreeBSD embedded, /bin/sh is not an otional component so we would want a non GPL version if we could get it. Luckily it isn't linked with anything like (say) gdbm but it's yet another GPL pin in the 'minimum system' I need for an embedded system. The size of BASH is also a consideration when I'm trying to ge everything into a 2MB flash. if you do want BASH in the base system, please don't take away ash. > > As to the second argument, you'll have to explain yourself, sonny. :) > > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message -- __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000 ---> X_.---._/ presently in: Perth v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 4:47:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78A3A37B917 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:47:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26780 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:47:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA00883 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:47:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from grimreaper.grondar.za (grimreaper.grondar.za [196.7.18.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AF5637BB6B; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:47:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grimreaper.grondar.za (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA76123; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:47:32 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200004161147.NAA76123@grimreaper.grondar.za> To: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven , Warner Losh , chris@calldei.com, Peter Wemm , Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources References: In-Reply-To: ; from asami@FreeBSD.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) "16 Apr 2000 04:12:40 MST." Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:47:31 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > * From: Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven > > * Create a metaport in ports which links the shell statically and > * puts it in /bin. > > But we cannot create a package for that "port". This, then is a shortcoming of the ports system; we need at least two other categories: 1) statically linked and installed in (say) /local/{bin|sbin} (which is in the root filesystem). 2) kernel modules. M -- Mark Murray Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 5: 0: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBF8537BE66 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 05:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26843 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:59:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA00938 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:59:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8613237B9EA; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:59:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asami@cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.hip.berkeley.edu (sji-ca7-28.ix.netcom.com [209.109.235.28]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA30692; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 07:58:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.hip.berkeley.edu (8.9.3/8.6.9) id EAA22449; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:56:08 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Murray Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven , Warner Losh , chris@calldei.com, Peter Wemm , Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources References: <200004161147.NAA76123@grimreaper.grondar.za> From: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) Date: 16 Apr 2000 04:55:44 -0700 In-Reply-To: Mark Murray's message of "Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:47:31 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 20 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * From: Mark Murray * This, then is a shortcoming of the ports system; we need at least two It is not a shortcoming of the system; it is a policy decision. We don't want people upgrading their systems and losing packages installed in /bin because they only backed up /etc and /usr/{local,X11R6}. (It's assumed that people using ports have a little more clue than those who only use packages, that's why I don't see a problem with such a thing being a port.) If we are going to decide to allow ports/packages for things like the following, it is fine by me. * 1) statically linked and installed in (say) /local/{bin|sbin} (which is * in the root filesystem). * * 2) kernel modules. Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 5:19:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EAD137B917 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 05:19:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26938 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 14:19:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA00971 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 14:19:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from grimreaper.grondar.za (grimreaper.grondar.za [196.7.18.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E35037B69F; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 05:18:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grimreaper.grondar.za (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA90478; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 14:19:31 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200004161219.OAA90478@grimreaper.grondar.za> To: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources References: In-Reply-To: ; from asami@FreeBSD.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) "16 Apr 2000 04:55:44 MST." Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 14:19:30 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Said asami@FreeBSD.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami): > * From: Mark Murray > * This, then is a shortcoming of the ports system; we need at least two > > It is not a shortcoming of the system; it is a policy decision. OK :-) it is a shortcoming of the policy decision. > We > don't want people upgrading their systems and losing packages > installed in /bin because they only backed up /etc and > /usr/{local,X11R6}. (It's assumed that people using ports have a > little more clue than those who only use packages, that's why I don't > see a problem with such a thing being a port.) Give the people proper tools and this is no longer a problem. EG: portscheck(1) is a (not yet wtitten) tool that could compare /var/db/pkg with what you have and whine in appropriate ways. I could write this in a day or three if you reckon it is warranted... > If we are going to decide to allow ports/packages for things like the > following, it is fine by me. > > * 1) statically linked and installed in (say) /local/{bin|sbin} (which is > * in the root filesystem). > * > * 2) kernel modules. Cool! M -- Mark Murray Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 6: 2:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AD2537B537 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 06:02:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27245 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 15:02:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA01057 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 15:02:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.ocs.drexel.edu (mail.irt.drexel.edu [129.25.3.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77D0337B8F4; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 06:02:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from st96yb9t@drexel.edu) Received: from [10.0.0.11] (adsl-151-197-17-59.bellatlantic.net) by mail.ocs.drexel.edu (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.03.02.17.58.p5) with ESMTP id <0FT400HDI1KAK6@mail.ocs.drexel.edu>; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 09:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 09:05:15 -0400 From: Yoshihiro Ota Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-reply-to: To: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-id: <0FT400HDJ1KBK6@mail.ocs.drexel.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Macintosh Eudora Pro Version 3.1.1-Jr1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: "Mark Murray's message of Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:47:31 +0200" <200004161147.NAA76123@grimreaper.grondar.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 4:55 AM -0700 4/16/00, Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami wrote: > * From: Mark Murray > > * This, then is a shortcoming of the ports system; we need at least two > > It is not a shortcoming of the system; it is a policy decision. We > don't want people upgrading their systems and losing packages > installed in /bin because they only backed up /etc and > /usr/{local,X11R6}. (It's assumed that people using ports have a > little more clue than those who only use packages, that's why I don't > see a problem with such a thing being a port.) > > If we are going to decide to allow ports/packages for things like the > following, it is fine by me. > > * 1) statically linked and installed in (say) /local/{bin|sbin} (which is > * in the root filesystem). > * > * 2) kernel modules. > > Satoshi Hello all. I just jumped into the mailing list because of the shell issue. (Mail archive was not available from March 26th to April 15th; are there any problems?) Why are tcsh/bash needed in /bin or /local/{bin|sbin}, or let's say the root filesystem? I don't think we don't need any shells except sh and csh; we need sh and csh because they are the only primary shells. Tcsh/bash or other shells are yet optional. We have a really good system to install such optional software so called ports/packages. We can install tcsh/bash or other shells in /bin or /local/bin ourselves by setting the PREFIX or some other possible ways. So, why do we need tcsh in the root system? I have realized that we have ports/packages system in order to keep base system minimized unlike Linux and I really like that. Why do we need to mess it up? And I don't think the following problem happens because people know they installed tcsh/bash/*sh in /bin. > * This, then is a shortcoming of the ports system; we need at least two > > It is not a shortcoming of the system; it is a policy decision. We > don't want people upgrading their systems and losing packages > installed in /bin because they only backed up /etc and > /usr/{local,X11R6}. (It's assumed that people using ports have a > little more clue than those who only use packages, that's why I don't > see a problem with such a thing being a port.) This is one request of the end users. Thank you for your attention. Hiro To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 7:52:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD23437B55B for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 07:52:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27898 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:52:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA01279 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:52:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B419537B55B for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 07:52:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA41640; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 07:52:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38F9D390.56CAF339@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 07:52:00 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0409 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells References: <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> <200004160306.VAA30436@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > > In message <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group writes: > : With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any > : plans to replace sh with bash. Granted they're not 100% compatible, > > What does this mean. If it means that sh scripts won't run on BASH, > then I'd say the odds are very low. tcsh runs all csh scripts as far > as I know. No examples were held up in the last batch of shell > jihads. IIRC, the last time replacing /bin/sh came up several people experimented with zsh in POSIX mode and found a few small, gratuitous differences in our sh that cropped up during a make world. Results with Bash should be similar. make seems to be the easiest way to find problems of this sort. I am 99% sure that system things like the rc* scripts would not present a difficulty, and if they did I'd be willing to help fix them. > : Another point to consider is that most people install who use a Bourne > : Shell the bash port, just like Csh users install the tcsh port. I > : think fewer people would be inconvenienced by the replacement of sh > : with bash than by not doing so. > : > : Anyone care to comment? > > My concerns would be compatibility with the existing system and size. > If it bloats the current /bin/sh to much larger than the 400k it has > become, then I'd be reluctant. I just compiled Bash 2.04 with the following: CFLAGS="-O -pipe" ./configure --enable-minimal-config --enable-static-link This gives me a shell of 420k unstripped, 361k stripped. On my -current system our /bin/sh is 430k. If we were to include it in the tree I'd advocate for the sh-style minimal config compiled static in /bin, and the full shell compiled dynamic in /usr/bin. The full shell compiled static and stripped is about 740k, which is too big for /bin IMO. Note, in order to compile Bash static on 4.0+ you have to comment out the definition of the "trace" function in error.c. It conflicts with the ncurses version of that same function. Fortunately the trace function in bash is just part of the debugging code, and isn't used in normal operation. All that said, and keeping in mind that I am a huge Bash fan, and have been using it for almost 7 years, I would be opposed to including it in the tree, simply because of the GPL. While I understand that there are things in the tree that are GPL'ed that we "can't live without," like gcc, I think that there are other suitable candidates in the Bourne shell world that provide the many attractive features that Bash does, without the encumberance of the GPL. In case anyone is tempted to ask, "Then why haven't you switched?" the answer is simply laziness on my part. I'm willing to make decisions for myself that I'm not willing to make for the project as a whole. The primary criterion that I suggest for selection of a suitable replacement are a strict adherence to POSIX standards (or at least a bash-like POSIX mode), and a totally unencumbered (and/or BSD) license. That pretty much leaves us with pdksh and zsh. I realize that the other BSD's have chosen pdksh, but the last time we went round this mulberry bush I thought the zsh advocates made a very persuasive case. The secondary criterion for a replacement shell should definitely be its feature set, and I've had "try zsh" on my list of things to do ever since that last round of shell debates, based on the arguments put forward by the zsh advocates. I'll have more in response to other topics on this thread, but I wanted to throw some facts into the mix at this point to help spur conversation. Doug -- Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. -- W. Somerset Maugham To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 8:21:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD5DF37B53B for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:21:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA28064 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:21:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA01366 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:21:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8509C37BA5A; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:20:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA47208; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 09:20:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id JAA63247; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 09:20:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004161520.JAA63247@harmony.village.org> To: Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Cc: chris@calldei.com, Peter Wemm , Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami , Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:18:30 +0200." <20000416111830.A73679@lucifer.bart.nl> References: <20000416111830.A73679@lucifer.bart.nl> <20000415203009.B99830@holly.calldei.com> <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> <20000416024118.A71475@lucifer.bart.nl> <20000415203009.B99830@holly.calldei.com> <200004160251.UAA30165@harmony.village.org> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 09:20:17 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000416111830.A73679@lucifer.bart.nl> Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven writes: : -On [20000416 04:55], Warner Losh (imp@village.org) wrote: : > : >Also, having tcsh move into the main system means that root can use it : >in single user w/o having to mount /usr/local/bin. If you use the : >port, you have to put up with csh until you can get /usr/local/bin : >mounted. : : Create a metaport in ports which links the shell statically and puts it : in /bin. Cope with tsch being as part of the base system. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 9:22:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25A2E37B709 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 09:22:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28328 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:22:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA01456 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:22:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9523137B709 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 09:22:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e3GGM8g14525; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:22:08 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:22:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Steve Price To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells In-Reply-To: <27309.955883220@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 16 Apr 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: # Since we've started this whole "commit the superset shell in favor of # advanced user friendliness" argument, one supposes that replacing # /bin/csh with tcsh and /bin/sh with bash2 with be merely orthoginal. s/bash2/zsh/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 9:36:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C775B37B681 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 09:36:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28403 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:36:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA01486 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:36:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 707C237B949 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 09:36:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([216.252.137.141]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA530A; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:35:05 -0400 Message-ID: <38F9EBC5.73940771@asme.org> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:35:17 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells References: <31345.955883432@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > Two reasons of the top of my head: GPL'd and gratuitously incompatible. > > GPL'd things go into /usr/src/gnu - no big deal. If we were overly > squeamish about the GPL then we wouldn't have "grep" or a compiler > toolchain either, among other things, and I doubt anybody's arguing > for killing those. The ash shell is just bad enough that I'd consider > a change of license for a truly functional shell out-of-the-box to > be a more than acceptable trade-off. > Heh..:-) Please replace grep with the recently developed free grep and unbundle gcc, making it a package independent from the base distribution. I won't be sad the day I can use tcc to build a kernel, besides after rebuilding the kernel (assuming you need to in the first place), many people don't need a C compiler. > As to the second argument, you'll have to explain yourself, sonny. :) > I really wanted to keep out from this discussion, however the NetBSD approach seems rational; keep ash and add pdksh. The problem is that most developers will want to be 100% sure their scripts will run out-of-the-box on SUN, Unixware and the u-name it commercial UNIX, and these people don't carry bash. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 10:20:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8422137B94E for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:20:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA28598 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:20:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA01587 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:20:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5893937B6C0; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:20:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA47548; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:20:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA63802; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:19:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004161719.LAA63802@harmony.village.org> To: Mark Murray Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, satoshi@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:47:31 +0200." <200004161147.NAA76123@grimreaper.grondar.za> References: <200004161147.NAA76123@grimreaper.grondar.za> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:19:39 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [[ cc's trimmed to arch ]] In message <200004161147.NAA76123@grimreaper.grondar.za> Mark Murray writes: : This, then is a shortcoming of the ports system; we need at least two : other categories: ... : 2) kernel modules. Actually bullet two here is due to shortcomings in bsd.kmod.mk. Until very recently, one had to have the module in the kernel tree in order to build it. Well, no longer. Simply define SYSDIR and you can build from anywhere in the tree. BTW, Where would a kernel module go in the current ports hierarchy? I'd like to prove mark wrong on this one :-) Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 10:23:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7502037B5C7 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:23:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA28616 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:23:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA01601 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:23:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969AE37B556; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:23:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA47570; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:23:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA63844; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:22:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004161722.LAA63844@harmony.village.org> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources To: cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 16 Apr 2000 09:20:17 MDT." <200004161520.JAA63247@harmony.village.org> References: <200004161520.JAA63247@harmony.village.org> <20000416111830.A73679@lucifer.bart.nl> <20000415203009.B99830@holly.calldei.com> <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> <20000416024118.A71475@lucifer.bart.nl> <20000415203009.B99830@holly.calldei.com> <200004160251.UAA30165@harmony.village.org> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:22:59 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200004161520.JAA63247@harmony.village.org> Warner Losh writes: : In message <20000416111830.A73679@lucifer.bart.nl> Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven writes: : : -On [20000416 04:55], Warner Losh (imp@village.org) wrote: : : > : : >Also, having tcsh move into the main system means that root can use it : : >in single user w/o having to mount /usr/local/bin. If you use the : : >port, you have to put up with csh until you can get /usr/local/bin : : >mounted. : : : : Create a metaport in ports which links the shell statically and puts it : : in /bin. : : Cope with tsch being as part of the base system. My point, which was lost due to a caffiene deprived haze, I think there's almost no support for csh being removed from the base system w/o something better replacing it. Sorry that was so unclear. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 11:31: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 674FA37B8F8 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:30:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28949 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 20:30:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA01770 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 20:30:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D3B37BA73 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:29:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustident!@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16690; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:29:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38FA06E0.43004E28@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:30:56 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Elischer Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells References: <31345.955883432@zippy.cdrom.com> <38F9A104.3F54BC7E@elischer.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Julian Elischer wrote: > > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > Two reasons of the top of my head: GPL'd and gratuitously incompatible. > > > > GPL'd things go into /usr/src/gnu - no big deal. If we were overly > > squeamish about the GPL then we wouldn't have "grep" or a compiler > > toolchain either, among other things, and I doubt anybody's arguing > > for killing those. The ash shell is just bad enough that I'd consider > > a change of license for a truly functional shell out-of-the-box to > > be a more than acceptable trade-off. > > From the perspective of a company using FreeBSD embedded, /bin/sh > is not an otional component so we would want a non GPL version > if we could get it. Luckily it isn't linked with anything like > (say) gdbm but it's yet another GPL pin in the 'minimum system' > I need for an embedded system. The size of BASH is also a consideration > when I'm trying to ge everything into a 2MB flash. > if you do want BASH in the base system, please don't take away ash. Again, zsh might be a better option here. The license is good, and the static binary size is smaller than bash, though larger than ash. Zsh sports the ease-of-use interactive features we seem to be clamoring for in this thread. I have been a bash user for many years, but would not want to put bash in an embedded system for fear of contaminating the code base; Julian's point is well founded. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 11:46:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FAD537B95F for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:46:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29028 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 20:46:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA01798 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 20:46:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from urban.iinet.net.au (urban.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFC0637B6A6 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:46:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from popserver-02.iinet.net.au (popserver-02.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.148]) by urban.iinet.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA08501; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:46:06 +0800 Received: from jules.elischer.org (reggae-01-122.nv.iinet.net.au [203.59.62.122]) by popserver-02.iinet.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA25391; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:46:02 +0800 Message-ID: <38FA0A1A.63DECDAD@elischer.org> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:44:42 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells References: <31345.955883432@zippy.cdrom.com> <38F9A104.3F54BC7E@elischer.org> <38FA06E0.43004E28@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > > I have been a bash user for many years, but would not want to put bash > in an embedded system for fear of contaminating the code base; Julian's > point is well founded. > consider a 'crunched' binary including bash and a proprietary program. Instant GPL pollution of proprietary program. Julian -- __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000 ---> X_.---._/ presently in: Perth v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 13:39:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38E4237B785 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:39:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA29626 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 22:39:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA02093 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 22:39:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C88037B54A for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:39:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA70008; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:40:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:35:17 CDT." <38F9EBC5.73940771@asme.org> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:40:04 -0700 Message-ID: <70005.955917604@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Heh..:-) Please replace grep with the recently developed free grep and > unbundle gcc, making it a package independent from the base > distribution. I won't be sad the day I can use tcc to build a kernel, > besides after rebuilding the kernel (assuming you need to in the first > place), many people don't need a C compiler. This is just a trifle unrealistic unless you've also done the work required to make tcc compile the world - have you? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Apr 16 14:46:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE1DF37B524 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 14:46:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA29949 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 23:46:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA02259 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 23:46:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from picalon.gun.de (picalon.gun.de [192.109.159.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56ED037B6A1; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 14:46:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by picalon.gun.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA14838; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 23:45:39 +0200 (MET DST) >Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA97532; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 23:33:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 23:33:19 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Warner Losh Cc: cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000416233319.B94126@titan.klemm.gtn.com> References: <20000416024118.A71475@lucifer.bart.nl> <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> <20000416024118.A71475@lucifer.bart.nl> <200004160248.UAA30122@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004160248.UAA30122@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 08:48:13PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT SMP X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 08:48:13PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <20000416024118.A71475@lucifer.bart.nl> Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven writes: > : This subject is religious and the only way I can envision to quiet > : everyone once and for all, is to just remove (t)csh and keep sh in the > : base. > > *VETO* I *STRONGLY* disagree with this. That would make me yell and > fuss and scream even louder than the kill it camp. And I don't think > I'd be alone. You are not alone ;-) BTW: I wouldn't start a religious war on this ... But I'd think of such a decision as very insane, simply unBSD'ish ;-) -- Andreas Klemm http://people.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD New APSFILTER 533 and songs from our band - http://people.freebsd.org/~andreas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 2:56:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F005B37B83D for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:56:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10906 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:56:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00292 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:56:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35B6837B664 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:13:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA99444; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:12:10 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:12:10 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells In-Reply-To: <70005.955917604@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 16 Apr 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Heh..:-) Please replace grep with the recently developed free grep and > > unbundle gcc, making it a package independent from the base > > distribution. I won't be sad the day I can use tcc to build a kernel, > > besides after rebuilding the kernel (assuming you need to in the first > > place), many people don't need a C compiler. > > This is just a trifle unrealistic unless you've also done the work > required to make tcc compile the world - have you? > Note he is talking about building the kernel, which is really unrealistic right now. "Building a good chunk of userland" is not unrealistic. But - to go to tcc, there would need to be a group of people who oversaw that it didn't rot. Not to mention seeing the same about non-x86 platforms. > - Jordan > Sander To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 2:56:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E1637B85B for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:56:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10907 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:56:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00307 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:56:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.freebsd.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10EE537BA50 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:45:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (hak.nat.Awfulhak.org [172.31.0.12]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA93892; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:45:36 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA00552; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:30:41 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <200004170730.IAA00552@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Warner Losh , Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org Subject: Re: Shells In-Reply-To: Message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" of "Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:07:00 PDT." <27309.955883220@zippy.cdrom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <544.955956639.1@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:30:41 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > sh scripts run fine on bash and I'll certainly challenge anyone to > find me a /bin/sh script which behaves differently when fed to our > 5.0-current ash shell vs bash 2.03. #! /bin/sh touch help echo hel{*,p} (and I don't think ``set +B'' is a good thing for /etc/profile....) > Since we've started this whole "commit the superset shell in favor of > advanced user friendliness" argument, one supposes that replacing > /bin/csh with tcsh and /bin/sh with bash2 with be merely orthoginal. All people need is a boot-time option. We don't need tcsh, bash, zsh or any other shell as part of the base system. > Both options have also, it must be pointed out, been already taken by > other flavors of *ix with far larger user bases than FreeBSD's and it > can probably be reasonably supposed that these arguments have already > taken place and been reasonably well-resolved or their own > switch-overs would not have happened. I see /bin/sh as bash on > probably every linux system I've ever used and linux's ability to run > arbitrary "popular shell scripts" has not, to my knowledge, ever been > brought into serious question. The flip-side is the Solaris approach. It's got a sh that can't even do test -L properly I think there's a balance to be drawn here, and going hell-for-leather in one direction is as evil as going in the other. Having a ``base'' version of {c,}sh (oops!) that evolves with standards is a good thing. IMHO adding packages from sysinstall is the way to go. > - Jordan -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 2:56:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9BC937B925 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:56:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10913 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:56:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00326 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:56:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A52637B636 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:13:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@03-140.006.popsite.net [216.126.134.140]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA87819; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:13:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id BAA03144; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:13:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:13:09 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Chris D. Faulhaber" Cc: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells Message-ID: <20000417011309.B3064@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from jedgar@fxp.org on Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 08:13:31PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 08:13:31PM -0400, Chris D. Faulhaber wrote: > If you were to replace /bin/sh, why not follow OpenBSD's (NetBSD's?) lead > and import pdksh...getting sh and ksh at once? Because I could just import the *REAL* Ksh (ksh93) instead. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 2:56:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9ECB37B941 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:56:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10920 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:56:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00342 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:56:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837C137B76B for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:10:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@03-140.006.popsite.net [216.126.134.140]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA87811; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:10:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id BAA03114; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:10:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:10:15 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells V2 Message-ID: <20000417011015.A3064@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <200004160031.e3G0Vt302555@cwsys.cwsent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004160031.e3G0Vt302555@cwsys.cwsent.com>; from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca on Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 05:31:26PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 05:31:26PM -0700, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > > With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any > plans to replace sh with bash? No. > Granted they're not 100% compatible, This is a big problem. We don't have C-shell scripts in the base system (Ok, one non-critical one). However, /etc is full of critical Bourne shell scripts. > I still think it might be a good idea to replace sh with bash. The Bash license would also prevent it, if bash2 were 100% compatible with ash (/bin/sh). I'd bring in the real Korn Shell way before I'd bring in Bash. Tcsh is not a new shell, it is just a newer version of the 4.4BSD C-shell. > If replacing sh with bash is unpalatable for some or most of us, what > about putting bash2 in the base system along side of sh? 3. GNU Public Virus Licensed. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 2:57: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8085437BB59 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:56:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10926 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:56:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00369 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:56:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.1.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF1F937BA3E for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 23:48:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 12h5KY-0002ua-00; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:48:22 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:56:26 MST." <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:48:21 +0200 Message-ID: <11195.955954101@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:56:26 MST, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any > plans to replace sh with bash. Granted they're not 100% compatible, > though my only experience with bash vs sh incompatibility was over 6 > years ago on a Linux system, I still think it's a good idea to replace > sh with bash. The winning argument for tcsh over csh was that tcsh is actively maintained, while csh isn't. Our sh has an active, responsive maintainer, so the peripheral arguments bandied around for csh don't hold nearly as much water. Let's not get carried away. Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 2:57: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFB1D37BBF3 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:56:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10931 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:56:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00393 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:56:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C4637B636 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:16:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@03-140.006.popsite.net [216.126.134.140]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA87827 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:16:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id BAA03184 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:16:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:16:41 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells Message-ID: <20000417011641.C3064@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <200004160306.VAA30436@harmony.village.org> <27309.955883220@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <27309.955883220@zippy.cdrom.com>; from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com on Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 04:07:00AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 04:07:00AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > sh scripts run fine on bash and I'll certainly challenge anyone to > find me a /bin/sh script which behaves differently when fed to our > 5.0-current ash shell vs bash 2.03. Funny that last time I proposed to replace ash with pdksh, way to many people claimed all our /etc/ scripts would break. Now people feel that our /etc/ scripts are fully executable by a shell other than ash. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 2:58:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1948437B777 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:58:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10964 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00531 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 664) id 1261137B886; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:24:06 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000416192405.A31223@hub.freebsd.org> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <1210.955826595@critter.freebsd.dk> <200004152113.PAA28692@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <200004152113.PAA28692@harmony.village.org>; from Warner Losh on Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 03:13:13PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 03:13:13PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > The second issue was fairly unanimous: Don't change root's default > shell's name (despite some pleas from one or two people to do so). > > The first issue was unclear. People generally argued against this due > to size, but said they'd be happy enough with a port of the older > csh. This was especially true amoung the embedded folks that posted. .... > Given that this was about as clear a consensus as I think I've seen in > a while on an emotional issue Agreed. This is my read of the consensus and thus my actions.. A port of the 4.4BSD Csh was commited, and tcsh was imported. The embeded people agreed the port would be suffient (note that the port's distfiles includes the RCS files so there isn't even CVS history lossage). -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 2:58:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4728437B908 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:58:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10968 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00547 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C731E37B589; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:05:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA49347; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 20:05:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id UAA66882; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 20:05:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004170205.UAA66882@harmony.village.org> To: dima@rdy.com Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Cc: cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:23:08 PDT." <200004162323.QAA22428@sivka.rdy.com> References: <200004162323.QAA22428@sivka.rdy.com> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 20:05:18 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200004162323.QAA22428@sivka.rdy.com> Dima Ruban writes: : How about - leave "csh" as a default root shell and add menu to sysinstall : that promps user to set a root's shell. That way we will preserve csh as a : historic root shell and will solve "not to confuse new users" problem? Hmmm... That tickles the back of my brain. Off to do an audit of tsch... Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 2:58:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8C8337B759 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:58:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10972 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00595 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1048737B81D for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:39:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustident!@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA17345; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:39:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38FA5D6E.AE039BE9@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:40:14 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Elischer Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Licensing (no longer Re: Shells) References: <31345.955883432@zippy.cdrom.com> <38F9A104.3F54BC7E@elischer.org> <38FA06E0.43004E28@softweyr.com> <38FA0A1A.63DECDAD@elischer.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Julian Elischer wrote: > > Wes Peters wrote: > > > > I have been a bash user for many years, but would not want to put bash > > in an embedded system for fear of contaminating the code base; Julian's > > point is well founded. > > > > consider a 'crunched' binary including bash and a proprietary > program. Instant GPL pollution of proprietary program. Depending on the court's interpretation of "derived work" you might not even have to do that. I have been given an opinion by members of the legal staff of a large US-based semiconductor manufacturer that making any single-purpose box that requires GPL code to function means the entire product is a work derived from the GPL code. Instant pollution of everything in the box. This is what Terry Lambert refers to as the viral nature of the GPL. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 2:58:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C6237B97B for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:58:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10976 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00611 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from tinker.exit.com (exit-gw.power.net [207.151.46.196]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D280637B719; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:24:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from frank@exit.com) Received: from realtime.exit.com (realtime.exit.com [206.223.0.5]) by tinker.exit.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA59536; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:24:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from frank@exit.com) Received: (from frank@localhost) by realtime.exit.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA12729; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:24:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from frank) From: Frank Mayhar Message-Id: <200004170024.RAA12729@realtime.exit.com> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <20000416185507.B43688@linkfast.net> from Matthew Fuller at "Apr 16, 2000 06:55:07 pm" To: Matthew Fuller Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Cc: cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Reply-To: frank@exit.com Organization: Exit Consulting X-Copyright0: Copyright 2000 Frank Mayhar. All Rights Reserved. X-Copyright1: Permission granted for electronic reproduction as Usenet News or email only. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matthew Fuller wrote: > I think the point is a far bigger portions of users are surprised by how > unfriendly and useless the root shell is. 'What, I don't have tab > completion?' 'What, I don't have command history and > editing?' etc. > > These are, for instance, Linux users, used to bash, or tcsh, or something > similar. They quit in disgust and go back to Linux because a simple > thing like working as root is useless because we have no decent shells. > > (Note that this isn't my opinion necessarily, I always use /bin/sh for > root for various reasons, but first impressions on converts really count) Time for me to chime in. The _first_ thing I _invariably_ do is replace the root shell with a statically-compiled /bin/tcsh. Every time. So count me in as extremely happy that tcsh is now part of the base. (And please make sure that if it's in /bin/tcsh, that it's statically compiled. There's nothing at all like getting a 'libc.so.4 not found' when one is trying to fix a broken system.) -- Frank Mayhar frank@exit.com http://www.exit.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 2:58:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EE8637B9F0 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:58:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10984 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00647 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53D6737B524 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:31:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA70732 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:32:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: since this csh issue seems to be such a hot potato... Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:32:30 -0700 Message-ID: <70728.955927950@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG What I propose is that we simply decide to finish the process and move on: 1. Fix the tcsh build so that it creates a symlink to /bin/csh 2. Remove the csh sources from -current. They are now redundant. Then root's shell is tcsh and at least a non-zero number of people are happy. I also don't think that this will "confuse new users" since tcsh is a superset of csh and said new users can still follow their nutshell guides on using csh to write non-portable shell scripts or use their history substitution commands. I've never seen anything in tcsh which prevented that and even though I don't personally use tcsh anymore (I'm an evil bash user), I think it's high time we just moved on. Raising the issue of /bin/sh vs bash was, of course in retrospect, a bad mistake on my and other people's parts and we should have known better than to widen a war rather than attempting to settle it. We were stupid, our bad. Let's now just stick for now to settling the [t]csh issue and, if necessary, referring it to our principal architect for a binding decision. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 2:58:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B56E837B99E for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:58:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10980 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00627 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15B8137B79E; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:55:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@linkfast.net) Received: by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id D8DE99B30; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:55:07 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:55:07 -0500 From: Matthew Fuller To: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" Cc: Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000416185507.B43688@linkfast.net> References: <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> <38FA4969.B3BF2DB2@vangelderen.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <38FA4969.B3BF2DB2@vangelderen.org>; from jeroen@vangelderen.org on Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 07:14:49PM -0400 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Wow, did that Cc line need trimmed...] [This should also probably not be crossposted as it is] On Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 07:14:49PM -0400, a little birdie told me that Jeroen C. van Gelderen remarked > Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami wrote: > > > > I agree with everything except for this part. The root's shell in BSD > > has always been csh for as long as I can remember, and it will violate > > POLA to change it now. (This is from a person who will immediately > > run bash in single-user mode if /usr/local is available and sh -E if > > it is not, so don't take it as a csh crusade.) > > I think you have trade this against how friendly FreeBSD is perceived by > new users. When I first touched FreeBSD I was surprised that the root > shell was utterly useless (to me, a sh user, I'm not saying csh is > useless) and it took me a while to figure out how to change root's > shell. I think the point is a far bigger portions of users are surprised by how unfriendly and useless the root shell is. 'What, I don't have tab completion?' 'What, I don't have command history and editing?' etc. These are, for instance, Linux users, used to bash, or tcsh, or something similar. They quit in disgust and go back to Linux because a simple thing like working as root is useless because we have no decent shells. (Note that this isn't my opinion necessarily, I always use /bin/sh for root for various reasons, but first impressions on converts really count) -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@linkfast.net Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 2:58:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B2737BA38 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:58:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10988 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00663 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF90737B637; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:20:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA97558; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:20:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:20:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Yoshihiro Ota Cc: Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <0FT400HDJ1KBK6@mail.ocs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 16 Apr 2000, Yoshihiro Ota wrote: > I just jumped into the mailing list because of the shell issue. > (Mail archive was not available from March 26th to April 15th; are there any > problems?) Yes, no-one wants to admit to responsibility for fixing them; they've been partly broken since 1999. > Tcsh/bash or other shells are yet optional. We have a really good system to > install such optional software so called ports/packages. We can install > tcsh/bash or other shells in /bin or /local/bin ourselves by setting the > PREFIX or some other possible ways. So, why do we need tcsh in the root > system? tcsh is an updated version of csh, not a different piece of software. We simply updated the old csh sources to the latest version, which happens to go by a different name. sh vs bash is a completely different issue. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 2:58:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA21D37BC27 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:58:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10994 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00691 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8143C37BAD5 for ; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 15:02:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([216.252.136.102]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6E8; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:00:42 -0400 Message-ID: <38FA38AF.64199B5C@asme.org> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:03:27 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells References: <70005.955917604@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > ... > This is just a trifle unrealistic unless you've also done the work > required to make tcc compile the world - have you? > I have used it for some ports where I wanted real portability: it's not as broken as many people would think. But that's not the point, making world build on non-gnu compilers would be good. In sum, I understand your point that the GPL is not a show stopper, however bash is not a case where we don't have better choices. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 2:59: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AAEB37BCC5 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:58:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11001 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00702 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sivka.rdy.com (sivka.rdy.com [207.33.166.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F18B37B7C6; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:23:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dima@rdy.com) Received: (from dima@localhost) by sivka.rdy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA22428; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:23:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dima) Message-Id: <200004162323.QAA22428@sivka.rdy.com> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <38FA4969.B3BF2DB2@vangelderen.org> from "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" at "Apr 16, 2000 07:14:49 pm" To: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Cc: Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami , Peter Wemm , Warner Losh , Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Organization: HackerDome Reply-To: dima@rdy.com From: dima@rdy.com (Dima Ruban) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeroen C. van Gelderen writes: > > What do the csh users think? Is typing "chpass -s csh" too much of an > inconvenience? How about - leave "csh" as a default root shell and add menu to sysinstall that promps user to set a root's shell. That way we will preserve csh as a historic root shell and will solve "not to confuse new users" problem? > > Cheers, > jeroen > -- dima To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 2:59: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37D2137BCC3 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:58:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11003 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00710 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:58:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from cypherpunks.ai (cypherpunks.ai [209.88.68.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABDB537B686; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:15:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeroen@vangelderen.org) Received: from vangelderen.org (intefix.ai [209.88.68.216]) by cypherpunks.ai (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D3AE49; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:15:09 -0400 (AST) Message-ID: <38FA4969.B3BF2DB2@vangelderen.org> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:14:49 -0400 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami Cc: Peter Wemm , Warner Losh , Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources References: <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami wrote: > > * From: Peter Wemm > > * IMHO, the way to keep most people happy (or least unhappy :-]) is to finish > * the tcsh thing, and change root's shell to /bin/sh and probably change the > * default new-user shell to sh as well if it isn't already. > > I agree with everything except for this part. The root's shell in BSD > has always been csh for as long as I can remember, and it will violate > POLA to change it now. (This is from a person who will immediately > run bash in single-user mode if /usr/local is available and sh -E if > it is not, so don't take it as a csh crusade.) I think you have trade this against how friendly FreeBSD is perceived by new users. When I first touched FreeBSD I was surprised that the root shell was utterly useless (to me, a sh user, I'm not saying csh is useless) and it took me a while to figure out how to change root's shell. So, assuming that we keep tcsh in the base system (why not, there's an awful lot of people using it), we have: 1. csh addicts typing chpass -s csh and be done with it or 2. frustrated new users trying to figure out that they need/want to type chpass -s sh I'd favor 2 and I think the POLA can be addressed by including an echo "Progress: you now have sh by default, type chpass -s csh to revert" alternatively we can keep csh for root and echo "You now have csh, sorry for that, type chpass -s sh and log in again" :-) What do the csh users think? Is typing "chpass -s csh" too much of an inconvenience? Cheers, jeroen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 3:40:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4FA737B6F4 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 03:40:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11404 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:40:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA00808 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:40:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mppsystems.com (mppsystems.com [208.210.148.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A110737B636 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 03:39:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mpp@mppsystems.com) Received: (from mpp@localhost) by mppsystems.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA84344; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 05:39:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mpp) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 05:39:44 -0500 From: Mike Pritchard To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: since this csh issue seems to be such a hot potato... Message-ID: <20000417053944.A83827@mppsystems.com> References: <70728.955927950@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <70728.955927950@zippy.cdrom.com>; from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com on Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 04:32:30PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 04:32:30PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > What I propose is that we simply decide to finish the process and move > on: > > 1. Fix the tcsh build so that it creates a symlink to /bin/csh How about a knob to turn that off? If I really want to use csh from ports, I don't want every "make world" creating a symlink so that I can't type "csh" and get the old shell (see the next statement). I also don't like the fact that the 44bsd-csh port installs itself as "44bsd-csh", and not /usr/local/bin/csh (or at least a symlink with /usr/local/bin/csh -> /usr/local/bin/44bsd-csh). If it comes down to it and I want *csh*, I want to be able to type "csh" and get the old shell. > 2. Remove the csh sources from -current. They are now redundant. > > Then root's shell is tcsh and at least a non-zero number of people are > happy. As someone who squawked when this first came up, I can live with the change, but I would like my two points above addressed somehow. Hmm. To get off-topic somewhat, maybe we should support some kind of /usr/src/local/Makefile.post-buildworld makefile/script that would be executed after a "buildworld" to "clean" things up a little bit to suit that particular site. E.g. blast away symlinks that aren't wanted, or remove utilities that are not needed/wanted, or change permissions (A number of people remove suid bits on a number of programs in the default installation). I also did make tcsh my default shell (like I said I would) just to see if I saw any differences, but about all I've had time to do the past few weeks is login and read my e-mail :-(, so I can't complain too much about all of this. -Mike -- Mike Pritchard mpp@FreeBSD.org or mpp@mppsystems.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 13:12:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB54637B8E2 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:12:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA14244 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:12:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA01768 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:12:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7981B37BA5B for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:12:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.cdrom.com [204.216.28.153]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA90704 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:12:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA42452 for arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:11:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:11:45 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: since this csh issue seems to be such a hot potato... Message-ID: <20000417131144.A42388@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <70728.955927950@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <70728.955927950@zippy.cdrom.com>; from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com on Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 04:32:30PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 04:32:30PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > What I propose is that we simply decide to finish the process and move > on: > > 1. Fix the tcsh build so that it creates a symlink to /bin/csh > 2. Remove the csh sources from -current. They are now redundant. This is where I am headed. I have not stopped. I only delayed because I went out of town for the weekend and was not willing to commit these changes on my way out the door should I break the build. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 13:14:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D2BD37BA07 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:14:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA14265 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:14:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA01787 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:14:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FDCB37B8A0 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:14:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.cdrom.com [204.216.28.153]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA90728; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:14:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA42475; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:14:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:14:12 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Mike Pritchard Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: since this csh issue seems to be such a hot potato... Message-ID: <20000417131411.B42388@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <70728.955927950@zippy.cdrom.com> <20000417053944.A83827@mppsystems.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000417053944.A83827@mppsystems.com>; from mpp@mppsystems.com on Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 05:39:44AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 05:39:44AM -0500, Mike Pritchard wrote: > How about a knob to turn that off? If you want a NO_TCSH knob I'll add it. > I also don't like the fact that the 44bsd-csh port installs itself > as "44bsd-csh", and not /usr/local/bin/csh I'll rename the port to any name other than "csh". I won't create a tech support nightmare by having what people get when typing ``csh'' being non-deterministic based on their PATH setting. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 14:12:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D65E37BB7E for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:12:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA14865 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:12:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA01943 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:12:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from verdi.nethelp.no (verdi.nethelp.no [158.36.41.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0D89337B89E for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:09:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sthaug@nethelp.no) Received: (qmail 45434 invoked by uid 1001); 17 Apr 2000 21:09:56 +0000 (GMT) To: frank@exit.com Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:24:11 -0700 (PDT)" References: <200004170024.RAA12729@realtime.exit.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.05+ on Emacs 19.34.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:09:55 +0200 Message-ID: <45432.956005795@verdi.nethelp.no> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Time for me to chime in. The _first_ thing I _invariably_ do is replace > the root shell with a statically-compiled /bin/tcsh. Every time. So count > me in as extremely happy that tcsh is now part of the base. Amen. Except I do it slightly differently here - I simply give toor the same home directory etc as root, but with tcsh as the shell. On every system. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Apr 17 17: 2:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBDC337BBF3 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:02:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA16104 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 02:02:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id CAA02349 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 02:02:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com (bubba.whistle.com [207.76.205.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20E3F37BCBB; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:01:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA28074; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:01:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <200004180001.RAA28074@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <20000416185507.B43688@linkfast.net> from Matthew Fuller at "Apr 16, 2000 06:55:07 pm" To: fullermd@linkfast.net (Matthew Fuller) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jeroen@vangelderen.org (Jeroen C. van Gelderen), asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami), cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matthew Fuller writes: > I think the point is a far bigger portions of users are surprised by how > unfriendly and useless the root shell is. 'What, I don't have tab > completion?' 'What, I don't have command history and > editing?' etc. What do people think of adding this to the default .cshrc bindkey ^W backward-delete-word This makes input more consistent with the standard tty driver. Instead of deleting the entire line, ^W just deletes the previous word. I always end up having to do this. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 0:13:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 151DA37BC82 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:13:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19718 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:13:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA00323 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:13:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC9DC37B5EA; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:42:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA53729; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:42:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id UAA87049; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:42:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004180242.UAA87049@harmony.village.org> To: chris@calldei.com Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Cc: cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:48:38 CDT." <20000417194838.D338@holly.calldei.com> References: <20000417194838.D338@holly.calldei.com> <20000416185507.B43688@linkfast.net> <200004180001.RAA28074@bubba.whistle.com> <200004180040.SAA10133@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:42:21 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'd support someone coming up with a complete set of these things, and then putting it up for review. It should implement traditional behavior AND NOTHING ELSE. No cool little this hack or that hack or anything of the sort. This falls under the tradtional behavior of csh category. Those that don't want it can disable it easily enough. What I don't want to see is every silly little issue causing a 10,000 message flame fest in -arch... I'd rather them be saved up so we can have only one (more) 10,000 message flame fest in -arch. :-) Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 0:13:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAF2B37BB58 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:13:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19716 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:13:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA00305 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:13:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dustdevil.waterspout.com (dustdevil.waterspout.com [208.13.60.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67B637BB84 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 21:00:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from csg@waterspout.com) Received: from waterspout.com (csg@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dustdevil.waterspout.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA00886 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:08:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from csg@waterspout.com) Message-Id: <200004180408.XAA00886@dustdevil.waterspout.com> To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org From: "C. Stephen Gunn" Subject: Outdated rdist in FreeBSD Base MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <882.956030883.1@waterspout.com> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:08:03 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was discussing the out-of-date rdist in FreeBSD (there is an up to date version in ports) on #BSDCode tonight. Last fall the license changed on rdist v6, and it's made available under an Open Source license now. I send-pr'd a tarball that would add the new version to /usr/src/contrib, but it was apparently never committed. Considering most people have moved towards rsync or other alternatives, the consensus on IRC was to remove the out-of-date rdist from the base system, and to allow rdist users to install rdist6 from the ports collection if needed. Continuing to ship an out-of-date version in the base isn't desirable. -- C. Stephen Gunn URL: http://www.waterspout.com/ WaterSpout Communications, Inc. Email: csg@waterspout.com 427 North 6th Street Phone: +1 765.742.6628 Lafayette, IN 47901 Fax: +1 765.742.0646 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 0:13:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F5ED37BDBC for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:13:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19724 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:13:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA00351 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:13:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3701A37BB26; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:28:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA29512; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:27:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:27:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Warner Losh Cc: chris@calldei.com, cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <200004180242.UAA87049@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > I'd support someone coming up with a complete set of these things, and > then putting it up for review. It should implement traditional > behavior AND NOTHING ELSE. No cool little this hack or that hack or > anything of the sort. > > This falls under the tradtional behavior of csh category. Those that > don't want it can disable it easily enough. > > What I don't want to see is every silly little issue causing a 10,000 > message flame fest in -arch... I'd rather them be saved up so we can > have only one (more) 10,000 message flame fest in -arch. :-) Which was pretty much what I said. I noticed that Peter's summary somehow left out the very large fraction of us who simply thought the entire issue was a real waste of time to discuss, no matter the outcome. > > Warner > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 0:13:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9723F37BB1C for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:13:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19730 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:13:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA00427 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:13:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5630937B646; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:49:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.calldei.com) Received: from holly.calldei.com ([208.191.146.189]) by mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FT600MJUSX8RM@mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net>; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:48:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA03946; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:48:39 -0500 (CDT envelope-from chris) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:48:38 -0500 From: Chris Costello Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-reply-to: <200004180040.SAA10133@nomad.yogotech.com> To: Nate Williams Cc: Archie Cobbs , Matthew Fuller , "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" , Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Message-id: <20000417194838.D338@holly.calldei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i References: <20000416185507.B43688@linkfast.net> <200004180001.RAA28074@bubba.whistle.com> <200004180040.SAA10133@nomad.yogotech.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday, April 17, 2000, Nate Williams wrote: > > This makes input more consistent with the standard tty driver. > > Instead of deleting the entire line, ^W just deletes the previous word. > > I always end up having to do this. > > Control W is supposed to delete the line. At least, that's how it's > been for me, but I've been using tcsh since before FreeBSD. :) ^W has traditionally been used to delete to the previous word. ^U is what deletes a whole line of text. -- |Chris Costello |Swap read error. You lose your mind. `------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 0:13:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E40C437B688 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:13:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19728 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:13:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA00415 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:13:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.79.126]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E42D737B804; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:41:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.79.115]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA24865; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:40:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10133; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:40:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:40:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004180040.SAA10133@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Archie Cobbs Cc: fullermd@linkfast.net (Matthew Fuller), jeroen@vangelderen.org (Jeroen C. van Gelderen), asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami), cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <200004180001.RAA28074@bubba.whistle.com> References: <20000416185507.B43688@linkfast.net> <200004180001.RAA28074@bubba.whistle.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I think the point is a far bigger portions of users are surprised by how > > unfriendly and useless the root shell is. 'What, I don't have tab > > completion?' 'What, I don't have command history and > > editing?' etc. > > What do people think of adding this to the default .cshrc > > bindkey ^W backward-delete-word YUCK!! > This makes input more consistent with the standard tty driver. > Instead of deleting the entire line, ^W just deletes the previous word. > I always end up having to do this. Control W is supposed to delete the line. At least, that's how it's been for me, but I've been using tcsh since before FreeBSD. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 0:35:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6F237BA34 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:35:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19914 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:35:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA00490 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:35:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D2537BB43; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:33:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id AAA09734; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:32:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:32:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200004180732.AAA09734@apollo.backplane.com> To: Nate Williams Cc: Archie Cobbs , fullermd@linkfast.net (Matthew Fuller), jeroen@vangelderen.org (Jeroen C. van Gelderen), asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami), cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources References: <20000416185507.B43688@linkfast.net> <200004180001.RAA28074@bubba.whistle.com> <200004180040.SAA10133@nomad.yogotech.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :> What do people think of adding this to the default .cshrc :> :> bindkey ^W backward-delete-word : :YUCK!! : :> This makes input more consistent with the standard tty driver. :> Instead of deleting the entire line, ^W just deletes the previous word. :> I always end up having to do this. : :Control W is supposed to delete the line. At least, that's how it's :been for me, but I've been using tcsh since before FreeBSD. :) : :Nate Heh heh. I'm used to ^W deleting a word. Having it delete a whole line is kinda useless, there are a thousand other ways to do that (like hitting ^C, for example). I always hate it when ^W in tcsh deletes the line but ^W in the tty line driver (type 'cat' or 'csh' and mess around with ^W) deletes only a word. I presume nobody has any complaints about putting the history bindings in: bindkey -k up history-search-backward bindkey -k down history-search-forward -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 0:38:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA88437BAE4 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:38:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19949 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:38:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA00504 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:38:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A414037B9EF for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:38:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA54765; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 01:38:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id BAA89618; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 01:37:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004180737.BAA89618@harmony.village.org> To: "C. Stephen Gunn" Subject: Re: Outdated rdist in FreeBSD Base Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:08:03 CDT." <200004180408.XAA00886@dustdevil.waterspout.com> References: <200004180408.XAA00886@dustdevil.waterspout.com> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 01:37:34 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200004180408.XAA00886@dustdevil.waterspout.com> "C. Stephen Gunn" writes: : Continuing to ship an out-of-date version in the base isn't desirable. Agreed. And I think there are still some security concerns with rdist. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 2: 0:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F73E37B985 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 02:00:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20645 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:58:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA00615 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:57:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FAB637B93C for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 01:57:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA79517; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:43:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:43:02 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: "C. Stephen Gunn" Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Outdated rdist in FreeBSD Base Message-ID: <20000418184259.U3179@welearn.com.au> References: <200004180408.XAA00886@dustdevil.waterspout.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <200004180408.XAA00886@dustdevil.waterspout.com>; from C. Stephen Gunn on Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 11:08:03PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 11:08:03PM -0500, C. Stephen Gunn wrote: > I was discussing the out-of-date rdist in FreeBSD (there is an up > to date version in ports) on #BSDCode tonight. Last fall the > license changed on rdist v6, and it's made available under an Open > Source license now. > > I send-pr'd a tarball that would add the new version to /usr/src/contrib, > but it was apparently never committed. > > Considering most people have moved towards rsync or other alternatives, > the consensus on IRC was to remove the out-of-date rdist from the > base system, and to allow rdist users to install rdist6 from the > ports collection if needed. > > Continuing to ship an out-of-date version in the base isn't desirable. Sounds good to me, but I have one concern. v6 works fundamentally differently to and is incompatible with the old rdist, if ours is the same as the old rdist that was in BSD/OS. It is quite unfortunate that two programs using different protocols have been given the same name. Here's what could happen to us. Recently I've had to make repairs where old BSD systems were unexpectedly unable to rdist with Linux systems which use rdist v6. The cost of this incompatibility was great. The rdist6 docs said that Linux's rdist could be made to talk to old rdist if it was set up that way and an extra executable was added to the system, but that extra executable was not provided with Linux nor with rdist and despite much searching it was nowhere to be found (NIH?). The "Compatibility" section of the rdist6 docs, also readable at http://www.MagniComp.com/rdist/ explains the issues rather optimistically. From my reading of this and your post, when we remove the old rdist from FreeBSD we will no longer have any means to honour pre-existing cron jobs in a heterogeneous environment. Since both programs are called rdist it would be easy be taken by surprise by the real nature of this change, and to have one's network fall over as a consequence. On the other hand we need v6 in order to be compatible with some other systems. If I'm on the right track here, it would be great if someone could check that newer FreeBSD systems will be able to rdist both ways in a heterogeneous environment, i.e., retain the old rdist executable (either left in the base system or included as part of the v6 port, with a suitable path/filename) and check that with the new rdist installed it is indeed still possible to rdist both ways as the URL above explains. Then we would have made an all round improvement by making this change. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 2:18:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7727437BC92 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 02:18:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20728 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:13:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00642 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:13:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from karon.dynas.se (karon.dynas.se [192.71.43.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C19B937B82F for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 02:13:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from micke@dynas.se) Received: (qmail 90208 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2000 09:07:08 -0000 Received: from spirit.sto.dynas.se (HELO spirit.dynas.se) (172.16.1.10) by karon.sto.dynas.se with SMTP; 18 Apr 2000 09:07:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 22423 invoked by uid 1101); 18 Apr 2000 09:07:09 -0000 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:07:09 +0200 (MET DST) From: Mikael Hybsch X-Sender: micke@spirit.dynas.se To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells In-Reply-To: <27309.955883220@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 16 Apr 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > What does this mean. If it means that sh scripts won't run on BASH, > > sh scripts run fine on bash and I'll certainly challenge anyone to > find me a /bin/sh script which behaves differently when fed to our > 5.0-current ash shell vs bash 2.03. > That's easy. Below is a /bin/sh line from a product of ours that works on AIX, HP/UX, Solaris and FreeBSD. It does however not work unmodified on Linux. Bash happily aborts the script and complains that UID is a read-only variable :( UID=`id | sed 's/^uid=\([0-9]*\).*/\1/'` If there is a need to have a nice command line interpreter in the source tree it should be installed as /usr/bin/bash (or preferable /usr/bin/zsh). /bin/sh is mainly for scripts. -- Mikael Hybsch Email: mhybsch@rsasecurity.com RSA Security AB Phone: +46-8-7250900 Box 10704 Fax: +46-8-6494970 S-121 29 STOCKHOLM, SWEDEN To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 2:20:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B240037B985 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 02:20:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20746 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:16:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA00659 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:16:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sr14.nsw-remote.bigpond.net.au (sr14.nsw-remote.bigpond.net.au [24.192.3.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED82737B824 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 02:16:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au) Received: from areilly.bpc-users.org (CPE-144-132-171-71.nsw.bigpond.net.au [144.132.171.71]) by sr14.nsw-remote.bigpond.net.au (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA19476 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:11:23 +1000 (EST) Received: (qmail 6520 invoked by uid 1000); 18 Apr 2000 09:11:24 -0000 From: "Andrew Reilly" Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:11:24 +1000 To: Warner Losh Cc: chris@calldei.com, cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000418191123.A6281@gurney.reilly.home> References: <20000417194838.D338@holly.calldei.com> <20000416185507.B43688@linkfast.net> <200004180001.RAA28074@bubba.whistle.com> <200004180040.SAA10133@nomad.yogotech.com> <20000417194838.D338@holly.calldei.com> <200004180242.UAA87049@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200004180242.UAA87049@harmony.village.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 08:42:21PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > I'd support someone coming up with a complete set of these things, and > then putting it up for review. It should implement traditional > behavior AND NOTHING ELSE. No cool little this hack or that hack or > anything of the sort. Traditional behaviour depends on how far back you're prepared to look. "Original behaviour" that I've seen includes "@" as the delete line character and "#" as the delete character (both printing). Rather than picking some arbitrary "traditional" behaviour, the MAINTAINER should pick some arbitrary sensible behaviour, and others can tweak their own configs from there. -- Andrew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 4: 5:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6099437B9A3 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 04:05:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21629 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:05:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA00909 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:05:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from leela.cs.purdue.edu (leela.cs.purdue.edu [128.10.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1F63737B923 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 04:04:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from splite@leela.cs.purdue.edu) Received: (qmail 4103 invoked by uid 118); 18 Apr 2000 11:05:38 -0000 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 06:05:38 -0500 From: splite@purdue.edu To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000418060538.A4058@leela.cs.purdue.edu> References: <20000416185507.B43688@linkfast.net> <200004180001.RAA28074@bubba.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <200004180001.RAA28074@bubba.whistle.com>; from archie@whistle.com on Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 05:01:04PM -0700 X-Disclaimer: Any similarity to an opinion of Purdue is purely coincidental Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Cc:'s trimmed] On Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 05:01:04PM -0700, Archie Cobbs wrote: > Matthew Fuller writes: > > I think the point is a far bigger portions of users are surprised by how > > unfriendly and useless the root shell is. 'What, I don't have tab > > completion?' 'What, I don't have command history and > > editing?' etc. > > What do people think of adding this to the default .cshrc > > bindkey ^W backward-delete-word > > This makes input more consistent with the standard tty driver. > Instead of deleting the entire line, ^W just deletes the previous word. > I always end up having to do this. I found tcsh reasonably compatible with my csh fingers after adding these to my .cshrc: bindkey ^[ complete-word bindkey ^W backward-delete-word unset addsuffix unset autologout Though I imagine the first one will cause the tcsh users to cry foul, it would help satisfy POLA. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 4:28: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3D4C37B5EC for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 04:28:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21860 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:28:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA00952 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:28:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D24537B5EC for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 04:27:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12hW9r-000C1G-00; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:27:07 +0200 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:27:07 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: splite@purdue.edu Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000418132706.B44592@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20000416185507.B43688@linkfast.net> <200004180001.RAA28074@bubba.whistle.com> <20000418060538.A4058@leela.cs.purdue.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000418060538.A4058@leela.cs.purdue.edu>; from splite@purdue.edu on Tue, Apr 18, 2000 at 06:05:38AM -0500 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue 2000-04-18 (06:05), splite@purdue.edu wrote: > I found tcsh reasonably compatible with my csh fingers after adding these > to my .cshrc: > > bindkey ^[ complete-word > bindkey ^W backward-delete-word > unset addsuffix > unset autologout > > Though I imagine the first one will cause the tcsh users to cry foul, it > would help satisfy POLA. In /etc/csh.login: unset autologout set addsuffix bindkey ^W backward-delete-word if ($?tcsh) then if (`basename $0` == "csh") then # pretend to act like csh interactively bindkey ^[ complete-word unset addsuffix else # invoked as tcsh, so be intelligent bindkey -k up history-search-backward bindkey -k down history-search-forward endif endif Or something like that. It may break for some 'su' stuff, though. We should get lots of nifty completions too: complete pkg_delete 'p%*%D:/var/db/pkg/% %' complete pkg_info 'p%*%D:/var/db/pkg/% %' Hrm, so where do I add the default ansi coloured prompt? (: Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Hacker In Chief, Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 7:13:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B052037BAA8 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 07:13:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14004 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:13:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA01252 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:13:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dustdevil.waterspout.com (fourier.physics.purdue.edu [128.210.146.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 933AA37B61C for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 07:13:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from csg@dustdevil.waterspout.com) Received: (from csg@localhost) by dustdevil.waterspout.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02196; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:20:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from csg) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:20:44 -0500 From: "C. Stephen Gunn" To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Outdated rdist in FreeBSD Base Message-ID: <20000418092044.A2172@waterspout.com> References: <200004180408.XAA00886@dustdevil.waterspout.com> <200004180737.BAA89618@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004180737.BAA89618@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Tue, Apr 18, 2000 at 01:37:34AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Apr 18, 2000 at 01:37:34AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > Agreed. And I think there are still some security concerns with > rdist. Can you provide us with some specifics? While I think it should be removed from the base, I still use rdist v6 every day for software distribution. :-) - Steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 7:22: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2866037B691 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 07:21:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17584 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:21:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA01277 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:21:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dustdevil.waterspout.com (fourier.physics.purdue.edu [128.210.146.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72CC437BACF for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 07:20:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from csg@dustdevil.waterspout.com) Received: (from csg@localhost) by dustdevil.waterspout.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA02251; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:27:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from csg) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:27:59 -0500 From: "C. Stephen Gunn" To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Outdated rdist in FreeBSD Base Message-ID: <20000418092759.B2172@waterspout.com> References: <200004180408.XAA00886@dustdevil.waterspout.com> <20000418184259.U3179@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000418184259.U3179@welearn.com.au>; from sue@welearn.com.au on Tue, Apr 18, 2000 at 06:43:02PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Apr 18, 2000 at 06:43:02PM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > v6 works fundamentally differently to and is incompatible with the old > rdist, if ours is the same as the old rdist that was in BSD/OS. It is > quite unfortunate that two programs using different protocols have been > given the same name. I'm aware of this problem. It's what prompted me to notice that the new rdist was available under an open-source license, and to suggest importing it. Apparently rdist has fallen out of favor with things like rsync around, that suit most people's needs. Removing it from the base system and allowing for a port is better than shipping an out-of-date version. > The "Compatibility" section of the rdist6 docs, also readable at > http://www.MagniComp.com/rdist/ explains the issues rather > optimistically. From my reading of this and your post, when we remove > the old rdist from FreeBSD we will no longer have any means to honour > pre-existing cron jobs in a heterogeneous environment. Just compile and install the new version of rdist. It runs on every architecture I have (Linux, AIX, IRIX, SunOS, Solaris, HPUX, FreeBSD, Rhapsody/Darwin). It works out of the box, and has some features that the previous version didn't. The "protocol incompatability" is that rdistd (the server) and rdist (the client) are now seperate programs instead of running "rdist -server" (or whatever). I think the experssion of backward compatability is that "rdist -server" will run rdistd if you try to use the old client to talk to the new server. > If I'm on the right track here, it would be great if someone could > check that newer FreeBSD systems will be able to rdist both ways in a > heterogeneous environment, i.e., retain the old rdist executable > (either left in the base system or included as part of the v6 port, > with a suitable path/filename) and check that with the new rdist > installed it is indeed still possible to rdist both ways as the URL > above explains. Then we would have made an all round improvement by > making this change. If there's significant interest, we could create ports/misc/bsd-rdist to install the BSD-44 version. - Steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 8:57: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38FB37BB73 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:56:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21982 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 17:56:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA01455 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 17:56:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from atdot.dotat.org (atdot.dotat.org [150.101.89.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9771437B593; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:56:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from newton@atdot.dotat.org) Received: (from newton@localhost) by atdot.dotat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA03585; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 01:26:20 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from newton) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 01:26:20 +0930 From: Mark Newton To: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" Cc: Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami , Peter Wemm , Warner Losh , Poul-Henning Kamp , Brian Somers , "David E. O'Brien" , cvs-committers@freebsd.org, cvs-all@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000419012620.C3348@atdot.dotat.org> References: <20000415231805.33B311CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> <38FA4969.B3BF2DB2@vangelderen.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <38FA4969.B3BF2DB2@vangelderen.org>; from jeroen@vangelderen.org on Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 07:14:49PM -0400 X-PGP-Key: http://slash.dotat.org/~newton/pgpkey.txt Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 07:14:49PM -0400, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > So, assuming that we keep tcsh in the base system (why not, there's an > awful lot of people using it), we have: > 1. csh addicts typing chpass -s csh and be done with it > or > 2. frustrated new users trying to figure out that they need/want to > type > chpass -s sh Not trying to start a flame war here, but we can actually go a step further. Traditionally, an empty shell field in /etc/passwd has meant that /bin/sh is the user's shell. We can use that tradition to make the choice of shell more friendly. Here's the idea: 1. When new accounts are created, default to an empty shell field in their passwd file entry; 2. Modify the default /etc/profile so that it checks to see if the shell field is empty or not. If it is empty, present the user with a list of shells obtained from /etc/shells and ask them which one they want to use. Default to the shell saved in adduser.conf if nothing is entered, or /bin/csh if adduser.conf doesn't exist. 3. Based on their choice, run "chpass -s" to set the user's shell to whatever it is that they've wanted. 4. Tell the user that they'll now need to login again, then exit. Next time they login the test in (2) will see that the shell field is non-empty, and won't ask any stupid questions. That means the user is asked about which shell they want when they login for the first time, after that they won't be bothered again. Note that this only affects actual logins, because it'd be done out of /etc/profile, so most role accounts (which are typically accessed via "su", not via a login session) would continue to work in the same way they've always worked, but accounts which are actually used for real-live login sessions can be customized by the user when they login for the first time. Furthermore, if a site wishes to standardize on a certain shell, or if the sysadmin who sets up someone's account already knows their preference, that's ok too: the shell field can be preinitialized with whatever is supposed to go there. Note that this means that most current practices will remain unchanged; the only real change is that accounts with unspecified shells present a menu upon the first login (but not the first "su"). The only file which needs to be updated to achieve this outcome is /etc/profile. > What do the csh users think? Is typing "chpass -s csh" too much of an > inconvenience? For people who don't know about the chpass command, yes. So turn it into a "choose from the following options..." style of menu. - mark -------------------------------------------------------------------- I tried an internal modem, newton@atdot.dotat.org but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton ----- Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 ------------- Fax: +61-8-82231777 ----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 9: 8:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A7E37B59F for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:08:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22098 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:08:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA01510 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:08:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C375837BA4C for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA56273; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:08:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA91757; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:07:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004181607.KAA91757@harmony.village.org> To: "C. Stephen Gunn" Subject: Re: Outdated rdist in FreeBSD Base Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:20:44 CDT." <20000418092044.A2172@waterspout.com> References: <20000418092044.A2172@waterspout.com> <200004180408.XAA00886@dustdevil.waterspout.com> <200004180737.BAA89618@harmony.village.org> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:07:39 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000418092044.A2172@waterspout.com> "C. Stephen Gunn" writes: : > Agreed. And I think there are still some security concerns with : > rdist. : : Can you provide us with some specifics? Beyond the big, huge gaping one of using the woefully insecure rcmd port, none come to mind at the moment. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 9:15:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6993137B59A for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:15:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22163 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:15:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA01546 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:15:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dustdevil.waterspout.com (fourier.physics.purdue.edu [128.210.146.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2773737B6D6 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:15:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from csg@waterspout.com) Received: from waterspout.com (csg@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dustdevil.waterspout.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02964; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:22:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from csg@waterspout.com) Message-Id: <200004181622.LAA02964@dustdevil.waterspout.com> To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Outdated rdist in FreeBSD Base In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:07:39 CST." <200004181607.KAA91757@harmony.village.org> From: csg@waterspout.com (C. Stephen Gunn) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <2960.956074947.1@waterspout.com> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:22:27 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:07:39 CST, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <20000418092044.A2172@waterspout.com> "C. Stephen Gunn" writes: > : > Agreed. And I think there are still some security concerns with > : > rdist. > : > : Can you provide us with some specifics? > > Beyond the big, huge gaping one of using the woefully insecure rcmd > port, none come to mind at the moment. Oh yeah.. That. We run rdist over ssh, so we're not as worried about the rcmd stuff after you add two key exchanges (one for the hosts, and one for the user). - Steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 9:33:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2093937B68D for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:33:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22360 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:33:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA01590 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:33:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9512537BA4A; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@09-018.006.popsite.net [216.126.136.18]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA95311; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA73797; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:33:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:33:15 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Andrew Reilly Cc: cvs-committers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/tcsh - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000418093315.B73739@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <20000417194838.D338@holly.calldei.com> <20000416185507.B43688@linkfast.net> <200004180001.RAA28074@bubba.whistle.com> <200004180040.SAA10133@nomad.yogotech.com> <20000417194838.D338@holly.calldei.com> <200004180242.UAA87049@harmony.village.org> <20000418191123.A6281@gurney.reilly.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000418191123.A6281@gurney.reilly.home>; from areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au on Tue, Apr 18, 2000 at 07:11:24PM +1000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Apr 18, 2000 at 07:11:24PM +1000, Andrew Reilly wrote: > Rather than picking some arbitrary "traditional" behaviour, the > MAINTAINER should pick some arbitrary sensible behaviour, and > others can tweak their own configs from there. As importer (if I even have a say), I really don't care what changes are made to /.cshrc /root/.cshrc /etc/csh.cshrc. People can either commit changes they want, or pass me diffs to commit. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 12:31:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D8C37BB43 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:31:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23870 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:31:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA01983 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:31:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F062037B648; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:29:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA98712; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:29:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:29:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Sue Blake Cc: "C. Stephen Gunn" , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Outdated rdist in FreeBSD Base In-Reply-To: <20000418184259.U3179@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, Sue Blake wrote: > v6 works fundamentally differently to and is incompatible with the old > rdist, if ours is the same as the old rdist that was in BSD/OS. It is > quite unfortunate that two programs using different protocols have been > given the same name. If this is true then we could have two rdist ports, an rdist5 one which is compatible with legacy systems and the more modern rdist6 port. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 18 13:58:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 332D937BB7B for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:58:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA24465 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:58:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA02210 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:58:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE2EB37B598; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:58:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA82287; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 06:58:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 06:58:00 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Kris Kennaway Cc: "C. Stephen Gunn" , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Outdated rdist in FreeBSD Base Message-ID: <20000419065759.W3179@welearn.com.au> References: <20000418184259.U3179@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Kris Kennaway on Tue, Apr 18, 2000 at 12:29:36PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Apr 18, 2000 at 12:29:36PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, Sue Blake wrote: > > > v6 works fundamentally differently to and is incompatible with the old > > rdist, if ours is the same as the old rdist that was in BSD/OS. It is > > quite unfortunate that two programs using different protocols have been > > given the same name. > > If this is true then we could have two rdist ports, an rdist5 one which is > compatible with legacy systems and the more modern rdist6 port. That'll give a convenient and easy answer to support questions. But what of the site that has scores of servers that have been using rdist for years, that upgrades FreeBSD and finds that a system failure is due to rdist suddenly being absent, installs the new program named rdist with the higher version number, changes the scripts to suit it, and has two consecutive nights of failed crons before discovering that the two "versions" of rdist are different programs? If 50 machines of various types suddenly have to have a new rdist compiled on each of them, this represents a real $ cost. At least it'd be nice to know before the incident rather than after, and the forced solution should involve changing the least number of machines. Upgrading a basic utility is not as simple on other systems, and here we are talking about a program specifically used for interacting with other systems. For example, at my work we have a particular Dynix/ptx system that has refused to compile most of what has been tried, and one Digital UNIX system that we have agreed not to alter for a few weeks while work is being done on a new database. "Install the newer program" is not as simple as it sounds, when you are running non-FreeBSD systems which is exactly where rdist is often used. You're not just demanding that FreeBSD systems upgrade, you're demanding that all of them be upgraded or risk multiple failures. That's a big ask. If the alternative is to provide a second port, then people need to be warned when upgrading FreeBSD that rdist no longer exists in the base system, and the differences between the ports needs to be explained well to the majority who haven't heard of these incompatibilities before. We're talking about the potential cost of two nights of network-wide cron failures plus adding a new program to multiple non-FreeBSD systems under time pressure. But let's get this into perspective. Hell, if that kind of problem only happens to one or two large commercial sites and to nobody that we know personally, I guess it's not very important, is it? :,) I would argue, referring to its documentation, that rdist6 expects to find the old rdist on the system somewhere with the name "oldrdist" in order to do all that it can do. Therefore if there is not an "oldrdist" file included with the base system (my preference), it should be installed _with_ the rdist6 port in order to offer rdist6's complete functionality. That would not solve all of the problems I have raised (rdist still disappears to ports), but it would be a compromise that would show some respect for those using FreeBSD seriously. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 19 5:39:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C12237BC92 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 05:39:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01001 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:39:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA00496 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:39:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dustdevil.waterspout.com (standpipe.waterspout.com [208.13.60.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75EA637B6E0; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:32:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from csg@waterspout.com) Received: from waterspout.com (csg@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dustdevil.waterspout.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05226; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:39:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from csg@waterspout.com) Message-Id: <200004190139.UAA05226@dustdevil.waterspout.com> To: Kris Kennaway , Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Outdated rdist in FreeBSD Base In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:30:33 MST." From: csg@waterspout.com (C. Stephen Gunn) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <5222.956108377.1@waterspout.com> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:39:38 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:30:33 MST, Kris Kennaway wrote: > But surely thats what the rdist5 port would solve? If there are protocol > incompatabilities (and csg seems to think otherwise) then you or someone > who understands the issues just needs to write up something for the > handbook, stick a pointer to it in RELNOTES.TXT, and people with legacy > installations will know to install rdist5, not rdist6. Perhaps we should fix the rdist6 implementation to not look for "oldrdist" but to look for /usr/local/bin/rdist5. Then again, I'm still looking why the protocols are that different. I know there are enhancements, but I've not ascertained what they all are yet. I still (reluctantly) advocate removing rdist from the base system, but the question of BSD44 products (rdist, csh) that aren't in the base any more is still unanswered. There have been several things bugging me about rdist 6, and this pushed it on my "investigate and repair as necessary" list. - Steve -- C. Stephen Gunn URL: http://www.waterspout.com/ WaterSpout Communications, Inc. Email: csg@waterspout.com 427 North 6th Street Phone: +1 765.742.6628 Lafayette, IN 47901 Fax: +1 765.742.0646 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 19 5:39:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A71F37BC8D for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 05:39:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00998 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:39:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA00482 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:39:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dustdevil.waterspout.com (standpipe.waterspout.com [208.13.60.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 204F337B692 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:48:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from csg@waterspout.com) Received: from waterspout.com (csg@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dustdevil.waterspout.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05370 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:55:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from csg@waterspout.com) Message-Id: <200004190155.UAA05370@dustdevil.waterspout.com> To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org From: "C. Stephen Gunn" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:46:32 +0100." <200004182146.WAA00579@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> Subject: Re: Outdated rdist in FreeBSD Base MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <5366.956109342.1@waterspout.com> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:55:43 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:46:32 +0100, Brian Somers wrote: > It's been a while, but AFAIR I needed to install rdist6 because I > *couldn't* run rdist over ssh ! I know rdist6 works pretty well over ssh. > I think that big gaping hole is an anti-hole ! I just checked the FreeBSD repo and found this log message: ---------------------------- revision 1.5 date: 1996/08/10 07:54:12; author: peter; state: Exp; lines: +60 -5 Remove the need for rdist(1) to run setuid, thus completely closing any possibility of a security hole. It now does what rdist-6 does, and calls /usr/bin/rsh if not running as root. There are NO protocol changes, this is 100% compatable with the old rdist, except that it does not need setuid root privs. However, there are some minor differences to the base rdist-6 code in that if it is being run by root, it will call rcmd(3) directly rather than piping everything through rsh(1). This is a little more efficient as it doesn't involve context switching on pipe reads/writes. Also, the -P option was added from rdist-6.1.2, which allows an alternative rsh program to be specified, such as ssh. Note that it requires the fixes to the ssh port to disable the unconditional USE_PIPES option that was recently added. The rcmd(3) optimisation is disabled if a non-rsh program is speficied. ---------------------------- Looks like our rdist(1) was safer/smarter than I thought as well. - Steve -- C. Stephen Gunn URL: http://www.waterspout.com/ WaterSpout Communications, Inc. Email: csg@waterspout.com 427 North 6th Street Phone: +1 765.742.6628 Lafayette, IN 47901 Fax: +1 765.742.0646 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 19 5:39:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9CF937BB3C for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 05:39:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01003 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:39:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA00508 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:39:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dustdevil.waterspout.com (standpipe.waterspout.com [208.13.60.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75EA637B6E0; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:32:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from csg@waterspout.com) Received: from waterspout.com (csg@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dustdevil.waterspout.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05226; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:39:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from csg@waterspout.com) Message-Id: <200004190139.UAA05226@dustdevil.waterspout.com> To: Kris Kennaway , Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Outdated rdist in FreeBSD Base In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:30:33 MST." From: csg@waterspout.com (C. Stephen Gunn) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <5222.956108377.1@waterspout.com> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:39:38 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:30:33 MST, Kris Kennaway wrote: > But surely thats what the rdist5 port would solve? If there are protocol > incompatabilities (and csg seems to think otherwise) then you or someone > who understands the issues just needs to write up something for the > handbook, stick a pointer to it in RELNOTES.TXT, and people with legacy > installations will know to install rdist5, not rdist6. Perhaps we should fix the rdist6 implementation to not look for "oldrdist" but to look for /usr/local/bin/rdist5. Then again, I'm still looking why the protocols are that different. I know there are enhancements, but I've not ascertained what they all are yet. I still (reluctantly) advocate removing rdist from the base system, but the question of BSD44 products (rdist, csh) that aren't in the base any more is still unanswered. There have been several things bugging me about rdist 6, and this pushed it on my "investigate and repair as necessary" list. - Steve -- C. Stephen Gunn URL: http://www.waterspout.com/ WaterSpout Communications, Inc. Email: csg@waterspout.com 427 North 6th Street Phone: +1 765.742.6628 Lafayette, IN 47901 Fax: +1 765.742.0646 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 19 5:39:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A91E37B539 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 05:39:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01015 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:39:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA00536 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:39:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D812D37B635 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 17:53:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac5.wam.umd.edu (root@rac5.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.145]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA25181; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac5.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac5.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA10579; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac5.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac5.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA10574; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:53:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200004190053.UAA10574@rac5.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac5.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: giffunip@asme.org Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: free grep (was Re: Shells) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:53:26 -0400 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I read this in the -arch archives... Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > Heh..:-) Please replace grep with the recently developed free grep and HA! Freegrep is no where near ready. Everyone has complained about the speed issues (yeah, it was slow) and I am still working to speed it up. The version currently in the ports tree (textproc/freegrep) is a whole lot faster but still sucks compared to the GNU version. I tore my hair out trying to figure out how they did it. I last touched the sources in December and I am getting incrementally closer to the speed of GNU but I am still not there. I also think I broken a number of options but it depends on which release you are using. I think the 0.15 in the ports tree has most of the options currently working, but I am going from memory. Unfortunetly, I have not done anything since December and will not until June due to classwork (I hate being a student). If anyone is interested in looking at all the work completed so far, let me know and I will let you at the most current sources. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 19 5:40: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9268437BC97 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 05:39:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01020 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:39:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA00616 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:39:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from awfulhak.org (tun.AwfulHak.org [194.242.139.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7406637BB87 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:38:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.awfulhak.org [172.16.0.12]) by awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24436; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 23:37:42 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00579; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:46:32 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <200004182146.WAA00579@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: csg@waterspout.com (C. Stephen Gunn) Cc: Warner Losh , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org Subject: Re: Outdated rdist in FreeBSD Base In-Reply-To: Message from csg@waterspout.com (C. Stephen Gunn) of "Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:22:27 CDT." <200004181622.LAA02964@dustdevil.waterspout.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:46:32 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:07:39 CST, Warner Losh wrote: > > > In message <20000418092044.A2172@waterspout.com> "C. Stephen Gunn" writes: > > : > Agreed. And I think there are still some security concerns with > > : > rdist. > > : > > : Can you provide us with some specifics? > > > > Beyond the big, huge gaping one of using the woefully insecure rcmd > > port, none come to mind at the moment. > > Oh yeah.. That. > > We run rdist over ssh, so we're not as worried about the rcmd > stuff after you add two key exchanges (one for the hosts, and > one for the user). It's been a while, but AFAIR I needed to install rdist6 because I *couldn't* run rdist over ssh ! I think that big gaping hole is an anti-hole ! > - Steve -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 19 5:40: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEBC037BD3C for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 05:40:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01024 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:39:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA00660 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:39:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dustdevil.waterspout.com (fourier.physics.purdue.edu [128.210.146.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9EF437BB7E for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:36:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from csg@physics.purdue.edu) Received: from waterspout.com (csg@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dustdevil.waterspout.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04365; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:43:56 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from csg@physics.purdue.edu) Message-Id: <200004182143.QAA04365@dustdevil.waterspout.com> To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Outdated rdist in FreeBSD Base In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 19 Apr 2000 06:58:00 +1000." <20000419065759.W3179@welearn.com.au> From: "C. Stephen Gunn" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <4361.956094236.1@waterspout.com> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:43:56 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 19 Apr 2000 06:58:00 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: Let me start by saying that it wasn't my intention to offend anyone, simply to improve FreeBSD. >But what of the site that has scores of servers that have been using >rdist for years, that upgrades FreeBSD and finds that a system failure >is due to rdist suddenly being absent, installs the new program named >rdist with the higher version number, changes the scripts to suit it, >and has two consecutive nights of failed crons before discovering that >the two "versions" of rdist are different programs? I don't think "Systems Failure" and "Daily Duties as a SysAdmin" are necessairly equivalent. Surely it's someone's job to be aware of these issues at your organization. >If 50 machines of various types suddenly have to have a new rdist >compiled on each of them, this represents a real $ cost. At least it'd >be nice to know before the incident rather than after, and the forced >solution should involve changing the least number of machines. I compile and install rdistv6 for all of my machines now. Admittedly my network is small (60-70 UNIX hosts of different architectures, and 500 total nodes). I rarely upgrade systems, applications or utilities like this without cause. >other systems. For example, at my work we have a particular Dynix/ptx >system that has refused to compile most of what has been tried, I have some experience on Sequent systems, and while the're somewhat cumbersome to deal with, a new version of rdist isn't exactly a complex application (akin to Oracle, or even Sendmail or Bind). >If the alternative is to provide a second port, then people need to be >warned when upgrading FreeBSD that rdist no longer exists in the base >system, and the differences between the ports needs to be explained >well to the majority who haven't heard of these incompatibilities >before. We're talking about the potential cost of two nights of >network-wide cron failures plus adding a new program to multiple >non-FreeBSD systems under time pressure. I don't mean to be overly critical here, but your nightly cron scripts should be more fault tolerant than that. Don't you try some "dry run" rdists to a new machine on your network before "setting it loose?" >But let's get this into perspective. Hell, if that kind of problem only >happens to one or two large commercial sites and to nobody that we know >personally, I guess it's not very important, is it? :,) I understand your concerns, but this is a well documented situation, rdist 6 has been around for years. This is why (at O'brien's request) I brought it up on -arch instead of just having him commit the change we discussed. >I would argue, referring to its documentation, that rdist6 expects to >find the old rdist on the system somewhere with the name "oldrdist" in >order to do all that it can do. Therefore if there is not an "oldrdist" >file included with the base system (my preference), it should be >installed _with_ the rdist6 port in order to offer rdist6's complete >functionality. That would not solve all of the problems I have raised >(rdist still disappears to ports), but it would be a compromise that >would show some respect for those using FreeBSD seriously. How long should we maintain this backward compatability? Sometime, someday, you simply have to say "everybody not running rdist 6 is screwed." We had to do this with ELF vs AOUT, which was significantly more severe. My suggestion was motivated because some of our vendors (Linux mostly) have already said "use rdist 6." (or worse, they simply say use rsync, cause it's better, which it ain't). Right now I have to _REMOVE_ rdist v5, and install rdist v6 by hand for my network. The work isn't killing me, but I think it's wrong to continue shipping an out-of-date component that has known problems in future versions of FreeBSD. Before I completely go insane here, I'm headed to look at rdist v6 and rdist v5 to see exactly what these incompatabilities are. - Steve -- C. Stephen Gunn, Computer Systems Engineer Physics Computer Network, Purdue University To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 19 5:40: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C56337BCD5 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 05:40:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01031 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:40:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA00675 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:39:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F7E037BBCC; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:30:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA25666; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:30:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:30:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Sue Blake Cc: "C. Stephen Gunn" , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Outdated rdist in FreeBSD Base In-Reply-To: <20000419065759.W3179@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 19 Apr 2000, Sue Blake wrote: > But what of the site that has scores of servers that have been using > rdist for years, that upgrades FreeBSD and finds that a system failure > is due to rdist suddenly being absent, installs the new program named > rdist with the higher version number, changes the scripts to suit it, > and has two consecutive nights of failed crons before discovering that > the two "versions" of rdist are different programs? They should read the release notes before upgrading (presumably this would be committed there). > If 50 machines of various types suddenly have to have a new rdist > compiled on each of them, this represents a real $ cost. At least it'd > be nice to know before the incident rather than after, and the forced > solution should involve changing the least number of machines. Packages are a nice low-budget solution to the problem of software installation :-) > demanding that FreeBSD systems upgrade, you're demanding that all of > them be upgraded or risk multiple failures. That's a big ask. But surely thats what the rdist5 port would solve? If there are protocol incompatabilities (and csg seems to think otherwise) then you or someone who understands the issues just needs to write up something for the handbook, stick a pointer to it in RELNOTES.TXT, and people with legacy installations will know to install rdist5, not rdist6. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 20 0:54:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2DDC37B643 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 00:54:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07055 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:54:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA00246 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:54:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (T1-Hansenet.BIK-GmbH.de [192.76.134.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10F1C37B521 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 00:54:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.9.3/8.7.3) id JAA14781; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:53:46 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:53:46 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: "Chris D. Faulhaber" Cc: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells Message-ID: <20000420095346.A14732@cons.org> References: <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from jedgar@fxp.org on Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 08:13:31PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In , Chris D. Faulhaber wrote: > On Sat, 15 Apr 2000, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > > > With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any > > plans to replace sh with bash. Granted they're not 100% compatible, > > though my only experience with bash vs sh incompatibility was over 6 > > years ago on a Linux system, I still think it's a good idea to replace > > sh with bash. > > > If you were to replace /bin/sh, why not follow OpenBSD's (NetBSD's?) lead > and import pdksh...getting sh and ksh at once? Different set of bugs and some bad choices with regards to signal handling (see http://www.cons.org/cracauer/sigint.html). The deciding point for me is that our sh has gone through years of beating as FreeBSD's and NetBSD's standard sh, while pdksh is virtually untested. Also, please keep in mind that several people did a lot of bugfixing for our sh in the last 2 years. I have several additional fixes I plan to commit after moving houses (next weeks) and that makes our sh not that bad, IMHO. Also, we have several people familiar with ash's inner workings, while we have none for pdksh. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 20 0:56:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 544AB37B6D5 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 00:56:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07093 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:56:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA00611 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:56:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F0D837BD3E for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:49:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA21537; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:49:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAgYaa.P; Wed Apr 19 14:49:42 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05147; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:49:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004192149.OAA05147@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Licensing (no longer Re: Shells) To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:49:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: julian@elischer.org (Julian Elischer), jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <38FA5D6E.AE039BE9@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Apr 16, 2000 06:40:14 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Julian Elischer wrote: > > Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > > I have been a bash user for many years, but would not want to put bash > > > in an embedded system for fear of contaminating the code base; Julian's > > > point is well founded. > > > > consider a 'crunched' binary including bash and a proprietary > > program. Instant GPL pollution of proprietary program. > > Depending on the court's interpretation of "derived work" you might not > even have to do that. I have been given an opinion by members of the > legal staff of a large US-based semiconductor manufacturer that making > any single-purpose box that requires GPL code to function means the > entire product is a work derived from the GPL code. Instant pollution > of everything in the box. This is what Terry Lambert refers to as the > viral nature of the GPL. Brett Glass calls it viral; I just call it a poor instrumentality of the GNU Manifesto, and leave it at that. As far as embedded systems, the GPL is death. If you want to say "being bought" as one of your protential exit strategies in your new startup, so that "IPO" is not your only option, to better convince the V.C.'s that they should invest in it, the GPL is death. You can still convince some V.C.'s, of course, but you've artificially limited your options considerably. I _do_ worry about things like the Kaffe class (Klass?) libraries being under GPL, since I don't know what an agregation means in the context of a bytecode interpreter; I'm sure the problem becomes much worse if you enable the JIT when running. The LGPL would have been a much better choice for these people getting their product used everywhere, but that might not have been one of their goals. Not that this has piss-all to do with -arch, so follows are directed to -chat. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 20 0:56:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ECC837BDDA for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 00:56:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07098 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:56:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA00671 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:56:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053FF37BFE9 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:37:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA23088; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:36:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAlyaacT; Wed Apr 19 14:36:51 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA04673; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:36:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004192136.OAA04673@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Shells To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:36:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200004160306.FAA67856@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> from "Christian Weisgerber" at Apr 16, 2000 05:06:01 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > In article <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> you write: > > With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any > > plans to replace sh with bash. Granted they're not 100% compatible, > > though my only experience with bash vs sh incompatibility was over 6 > > years ago on a Linux system, > > bash is reputed to execute scripts rather slowly. I don't know if > this still holds true for the current version. It definitely is > rather large, though. This is because bash still tries to get the highest fd it can to avoid having to remember where it left the fd for the script currently being executed, and move it out of the way, should some user attempt to use it in their shell scripts. In other words, it is the result of lazy programmers not caring if they bloat the per process open file table to kingdom come, just so that they don't have to learn how to write proper resource tracking code, and do it The Right Way(tm). Back in The Old Days Before Resource Limits(tm), this would actually crash FreeBSD, since it was such a heinously bad idea to do this, no one had ever thought to protect the system from it happening, because no one could possibly be stupid enough to write code that acted that way, other than the while(1) fork(); weenies, and we threw them off the important computers already. -- All this said, the arguments against both tcsh and bash remain: Standard Plus Extensions Is Not Standard -- Terry Lambert Feel free to put that one in the fortunes database so that you can all see it without me having to post about it on inane threads like this one to point out that people writing shell scripts are not the type of people who will look at POSIX before using a shell specific construct that isn't cross-platform. Which brings up another one: Those who do not remember the UNIX Wars are doomed to repeat them in their operatings systems, in their shells, in their install tools, and in their system libraries; may their names live on forever -- as things with which to frighten children. -- Terry Lambert Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 20 0:56:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C7D37BDE0 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 00:56:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07102 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:56:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA00697 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:56:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CA4037BD5B for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:24:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA13798; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:24:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAqqaa5A; Wed Apr 19 14:24:12 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA04275; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:24:14 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004192124.OAA04275@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Shells V2 To: Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:24:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200004160031.e3G0Vt302555@cwsys.cwsent.com> from "Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group" at Apr 15, 2000 05:31:26 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any > plans to replace sh with bash? Granted they're not 100% compatible, > though my only experience with bash vs sh incompatibility was over 6 > years ago on a Linux system, I still think it might be a good idea to > replace sh with bash. My opinion, which seems to be missing from the summaries, is that importing tcsh over csh is a stupid thing. It is stupid to do because of, among other incompatabilities, it has "enhanced" variable substitution which will find its way into csh scripts written by people who don't know any better. The same argument is true of bash. It claims that bash is a superset of sh, and that it is OK to replace sh because of this. It is stupid to do because of, among other incompatabilities, it has "enhanced" variable substitution which will find its way into sh scripts written by people who don't know any better. [ ... Wait, is there an echo in here? ... ] You all realize that this creeping-featurism based incompatability is the same thing that fueled the "UNIX wars" of the 80's, and resulted in their being no common ABI between UNIX implementations, right? I really don't give a damn if someone wants to write tcsh or bash scripts, but they should at least have the human decency to put #!/usr/local/bin/tcsh or #!/usr/local/bin/bash to warn us of the possible use of non-standard features in their scripts. Failing to do this will lead to scripts not running across platforms, with no indication of why not. Quit being so damned FreeBSD and Linux centric for a minute, will you?!? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 20 1:16:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E4A137B564 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:16:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07204 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:16:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA00775 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:16:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (T1-Hansenet.BIK-GmbH.de [192.76.134.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43D6237B521 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:15:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.9.3/8.7.3) id KAA15594; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:15:18 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:15:18 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells Message-ID: <20000420101518.B14732@cons.org> References: <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> <200004160306.FAA67856@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004160306.FAA67856@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>; from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de on Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 05:06:01AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In <200004160306.FAA67856@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > (Are shell wars really appropriate to -arch?) > > In article <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> you write: > > > With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any > > plans to replace sh with bash. Granted they're not 100% compatible, > > though my only experience with bash vs sh incompatibility was over 6 > > years ago on a Linux system, > > bash is reputed to execute scripts rather slowly. I don't know if > this still holds true for the current version. It definitely is > rather large, though. bash2 is large, but I cannot support the slowness claim. I pushed lot of things through our sh and bash2 while fixing our sh and I never noticed bash2 being slow. I didn't do benchmarks and I don't beleive in benchmarks anyway, though. > (Side note: > Incompatibilities between bash and sh fall into two categories: > 1. Comparing a POSIX shell (bash) with a traditional Bourne shell. > This is a non-issue since our sh is a POSIX shell, too. I did a lot of testing, and bash2 is by far the most bugfree implementation of a bourne shell as specified by POSIX I found. > 2. General upwards compatibility issues, i.e. the existence of > additional pre-defined variables, commands, etc in the name > space. This was already rare those six years ago, and as Linux > has become _a_, if not _the_ major unix platform since, any > offending scripts have been fixed. bash2 is supposed to turn off extensions when called as 'sh'. I didn't investigate how thoroughly this is done. But in general I agree with your point: our /bin/sh should be a pure POSIX shell without extension unless you turn them on. If you replaced our /bin/sh with bash2, the first problem would be a manpage that describes the POSIX part of bash only, but tracks new bash2 development. > I don't think replacing sh by bash is an issue. If there's a > question, then that's whether bash should be _added_ alongside sh. > Note that bash's license (GPL) makes an inclusion into the tree > unattractive. > > Personally, I think the addition of a _Korn shell_ should be worth > some consideration. Candidates are pdksh, which is of similar size > to our sh and could quite possibly replace it as well (as done on > OpenBSD), or maybe ksh93, if AT&T's license should allow this. > > Some facts: > * {,/usr}/bin/ksh is widely provided on commercial unices and is > actually ksh88 there. I think there is no point in going to /bin/ksh compatibilty now that POSIX specifies the feature set of /bin/sh. /bin/sh is the thing that is in the standards, not /bin/ksh. Also, we have a hard time approaching the standard for /bin/sh. Doing the same for /bin/ksh would be *additional* effort, as we can't drop supporting /bin/sh when setting for /bin/ksh. > * pdksh implements a substantial subset of ksh88, with some deviations > for POSIX compatibility. It is in the public domain(!). As I said in a different message, I think our current sh makes a better /bin/sh than ksh does. > * ksh93 implements a superset of ksh88, with some deviations for > POSIX compatibility. It is under AT&T's open source(?) license > . > (If anybody has managed to actually understand this thing, please > provide details.) > * NetBSD uses pdksh for /bin/ksh (and a relative of our sh for > /bin/sh). > OpenBSD uses pdksh for /bin/sh and /bin/ksh. As I said, I see no point in adding to confusion by supporting /bin/ksh as the standard scripting shell. /bin/sh is what gets polished by POSIX. ksh is well placed in ports. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 20 1:18:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E87F937BBE3 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:18:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07213 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:18:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA00789 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:18:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (T1-Hansenet.BIK-GmbH.de [192.76.134.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D08CB37B68E for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:18:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.9.3/8.7.3) id KAA15838; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:18:10 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:18:10 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Warner Losh , Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells Message-ID: <20000420101810.C14732@cons.org> References: <200004160306.VAA30436@harmony.village.org> <27309.955883220@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <27309.955883220@zippy.cdrom.com>; from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com on Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 04:07:00AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In <27309.955883220@zippy.cdrom.com>, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > What does this mean. If it means that sh scripts won't run on BASH, > > sh scripts run fine on bash and I'll certainly challenge anyone to > find me a /bin/sh script which behaves differently when fed to our > 5.0-current ash shell vs bash 2.03. I have a few bugfixes left that would trigger different behaviour, but on our side, not bash2's :-) Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 20 1:20:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3425D37B8C1 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:20:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07235 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:20:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA00806 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:20:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (T1-Hansenet.BIK-GmbH.de [192.76.134.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B4837B8CA; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:19:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.9.3/8.7.3) id KAA15857; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:19:56 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:19:56 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: "David O'Brien" Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells Message-ID: <20000420101956.D14732@cons.org> References: <200004160306.VAA30436@harmony.village.org> <27309.955883220@zippy.cdrom.com> <20000417011641.C3064@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000417011641.C3064@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 01:16:41AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In <20000417011641.C3064@dragon.nuxi.com>, David O'Brien wrote: > On Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 04:07:00AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > sh scripts run fine on bash and I'll certainly challenge anyone to > > find me a /bin/sh script which behaves differently when fed to our > > 5.0-current ash shell vs bash 2.03. > > Funny that last time I proposed to replace ash with pdksh, way to many > people claimed all our /etc/ scripts would break. Now people feel that > our /etc/ scripts are fully executable by a shell other than ash. Our /etc/rc (except the -T stuff for local/etc/rc.d) is certainly executable by bash2. But bash2 is an almost bugfree shell, while pdksh and zsh are not, so you can't transfer the claim the way you did. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 20 1:24:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C4837BDCA for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:24:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07268 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:24:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA00838 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:24:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAFD137BDC5 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:24:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA18128; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:26:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200004200826.BAA18128@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Shells In-Reply-To: <200004192136.OAA04673@usr09.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Apr 19, 2000 09:36:52 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Cc: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber), Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > In article <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> you write: > > > With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any > > > plans to replace sh with bash. Granted they're not 100% compatible, > > > though my only experience with bash vs sh incompatibility was over 6 > > > years ago on a Linux system, > > > > bash is reputed to execute scripts rather slowly. I don't know if > > this still holds true for the current version. It definitely is > > rather large, though. > > This is because bash still tries to get the highest fd it can to > avoid having to remember where it left the fd for the script > currently being executed, and move it out of the way, should > some user attempt to use it in their shell scripts. > > In other words, it is the result of lazy programmers not caring > if they bloat the per process open file table to kingdom come, > just so that they don't have to learn how to write proper > resource tracking code, and do it The Right Way(tm). > > Back in The Old Days Before Resource Limits(tm), this would > actually crash FreeBSD, since it was such a heinously bad idea > to do this, no one had ever thought to protect the system from > it happening, because no one could possibly be stupid enough > to write code that acted that way, other than the while(1) fork(); > weenies, and we threw them off the important computers already. > > -- > > All this said, the arguments against both tcsh and bash remain: > > Standard Plus Extensions Is Not Standard > -- Terry Lambert Posted on my office wall now.... :-). > > Which brings up another one: > > Those who do not remember the UNIX Wars are doomed to > repeat them in their operatings systems, in their shells, > in their install tools, and in their system libraries; > may their names live on forever -- as things with which > to frighten children. > -- Terry Lambert Which combining the two into a very old one I first heard in the 70's: We the willing, lead by the ungreatful, have been doing so much with so little we are now qualified to do absolutely anything with nothing at all. -- Rick Grimes Ie, if you take the limit of the small tool designed to do one job on one thing to the limit you end up ... well... it says it best. -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 20 1:24:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C839237B830 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:24:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07275 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:24:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA00852 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:24:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (T1-Hansenet.BIK-GmbH.de [192.76.134.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3383037BDD2 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:24:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.9.3/8.7.3) id KAA15897; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:24:12 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:24:12 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: Doug Barton Cc: Warner Losh , Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells Message-ID: <20000420102412.E14732@cons.org> References: <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> <200004160306.VAA30436@harmony.village.org> <38F9D390.56CAF339@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38F9D390.56CAF339@gorean.org>; from Doug@gorean.org on Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 07:52:00AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In <38F9D390.56CAF339@gorean.org>, Doug Barton wrote: > Warner Losh wrote: > > > > In message <200004152356.e3FNup102274@cwsys.cwsent.com> Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group writes: > > : With commit of tcsh, I'd like to raise another question. Are there any > > : plans to replace sh with bash. Granted they're not 100% compatible, > > > > What does this mean. If it means that sh scripts won't run on BASH, > > then I'd say the odds are very low. tcsh runs all csh scripts as far > > as I know. No examples were held up in the last batch of shell > > jihads. > > IIRC, the last time replacing /bin/sh came up several people > experimented with zsh in POSIX mode and found a few small, gratuitous > differences in our sh that cropped up during a make world. Results with > Bash should be similar. That assumption is pure prejustice and obviously not backed by any testing. [...] > The primary criterion that I suggest for selection of a suitable > replacement are a strict adherence to POSIX standards (or at least a > bash-like POSIX mode), and a totally unencumbered (and/or BSD) license. > That pretty much leaves us with pdksh and zsh. I realize that the other > BSD's have chosen pdksh, No, OpenBSD has, but NetBSD still uses ash for /bin/sh (with a different set of bugfixes than ours). Could somebody tell me whether pdksh or zsh even try to offer an extension-free pure POSIX mode? Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 20 1:35: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C667837BDC4 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:35:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07321 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:34:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA00871 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:34:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (T1-Hansenet.BIK-GmbH.de [192.76.134.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7812137BBE3 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:34:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.9.3/8.7.3) id KAA16904; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:34:02 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:34:02 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shells Message-ID: <20000420103402.F14732@cons.org> References: <20000415182916.U4381@fw.wintelcom.net> <31345.955883432@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <31345.955883432@zippy.cdrom.com>; from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com on Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 04:10:32AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In <31345.955883432@zippy.cdrom.com>, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Two reasons of the top of my head: GPL'd and gratuitously incompatible. > > GPL'd things go into /usr/src/gnu - no big deal. If we were overly > squeamish about the GPL then we wouldn't have "grep" or a compiler > toolchain either, among other things, and I doubt anybody's arguing > for killing those. /bin/sh is critical for system startup and is used on almost every FreeBSD system, even on floppy-only ones. Many systems can live without grep or compilers. Consider the set of commercations applications where you would take FreeBSD and make use of the BSD license and keep the source changes for themself. I don't see a point in doing so for a complete commandline-enabled Unix clone, but I see a lot of applications that all would ship without a compiler and could live without (or with a minial) grep. That raises the bar for license considerations, IMHO. > The ash shell is just bad enough that I'd consider > a change of license for a truly functional shell out-of-the-box to > be a more than acceptable trade-off. > > As to the second argument, you'll have to explain yourself, sonny. :) It's no question that bash2 is better than our ash, but with regards for "is just bad enough" I can only ask you to report the problems you have (in doubt directly to me). I also have some sh fixes in the queue. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 20 1:48:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC55C37B8CA for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:48:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07410 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:48:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA00914 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:48:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (T1-Hansenet.BIK-GmbH.de [192.76.134.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 514FD37BDA1; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:48:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.9.3/8.7.3) id KAA17461; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:48:16 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:48:16 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: "David O'Brien" Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: No nawk ?? Message-ID: <20000420104816.G14732@cons.org> References: <200004081636.SAA07027@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> <38EF78E3.B86EFC11@asme.org> <20000409141853.C1252@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000409141853.C1252@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 02:18:53PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In <20000409141853.C1252@dragon.nuxi.com>, David O'Brien wrote: > On Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 01:22:27PM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > Check out mawk; it's faster and is fully POSIX. I agree that nawk is > > limited WRT the other awks, but I prefer it for the base system due to > > the history it has and because it's smaller and faster than gawk. GNU > > awk is the worst of the three options (many bugs, big and slow). > > If I'm unable to get nawk to work as our base awk, switching to mawk (for > the reasons above) is my other plan [sometime in the future of course]. I can't offer hard data either, but I remember mawk breaking on some valid extension-free scripts for me (coredumping) and nawk being rather slow. gawk seems to be the awk that most people step on and that gets most fixes. It is unfortunate that our standard awk support non-standard extensions, though, I wish it had a non-extensions mode like bash has. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 21 18: 5:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 817A937B655 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 18:05:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA24180 for ; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 03:05:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id DAA03061 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 22 Apr 2000 03:05:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26B9637BE07 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 18:04:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA61542 for ; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 18:04:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 18:04:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: MACHINE_CPU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi guys, I want to enable support for CPU-specific assembler code in things like libgmp, openssl, etc, which requires knowledge of the target CPU type (not just the architecture). For example, OpenSSL only includes asm code for pentium and above, so we can't just build it if MACHINE_ARCH == "i386". The obvious way to do this is to add a MACHINE_CPU to sys.mk and add a shadow TARGET_CPU in Makefile.inc1. Any objections to this approach? Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message