From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 0: 5: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C792837C130 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:04:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e6974wR13285 for arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:04:58 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: making the snoop device loadable. Message-ID: <20000709000458.M25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ok, I noticed that with a bit of hacking the snp device can be made loadable. Making it unloadable is a bit of a pain, but I can implement it using refcounting on the amount of ttys that have snp devices hooked onto them so that the machine doesn't panic if you unload it. The 'problem' that happens is that kern/tty.c now needs to include snoop.h unconditionally, and it also has to provide some exernally visible pointers to functions for the loadable snoop device to hook into. Basically, does anyone have a problem with snp becoming loadable before I commit to finishing off the work? (it's loadable now, but not unloadable). thanks, -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 0:17:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D862737C128; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:17:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asami@cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.hip.berkeley.edu (sji-ca14-12.ix.netcom.com [205.186.215.12]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA00266; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 03:16:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.hip.berkeley.edu (8.9.3/8.6.9) id AAA33518; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:15:01 -0700 (PDT) To: papowell@astart.com Cc: chuckr@picnic.mat.net, andrews@technologist.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG, drosih@rpi.edu, imp@village.org, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, sheldonh@uunet.co.za, will@almanac.yi.org Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues References: <200007082011.NAA26688@h4.private> From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) Date: 09 Jul 2000 00:14:54 -0700 In-Reply-To: papowell@astart.com's message of "Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:11:25 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 32 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * From: papowell@astart.com * As I not in my posting, I am not adverse, and quite willing to put it * under BSD license, but I would like to be able to have the actual executable * 'identify its lineage' in some way, so that it is identifiable as the * 'True Code', modified by somebody, or 'modified by corporation X'. * * This is perfectly reasonable and common. I agree. * > * > On top of that, and this is a purely personal feeling, I think needing a * > banner to print out every time your software starts up, well, that's a bit * h9: {455} % lpr -V * LPRng-3.6.20, Copyright 1988-2000 Patrick Powell, * * * I am a little bit baffled on this. What are you talking about? I think Chuck just got confused. :) He probably thought you wanted lpr and lpd and whatnot to print the copyright message every time it starts up. (Which is, of course, a bit too much.) I certainly see nothing weird or unreasonable about having the commands print copyright information when the user asks explicitly, and your request that the string include information about modifications made by people other than yourself so you won't be accused of breakages caused by fumblefinger.com. Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 0:22:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D7137C1EF; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:22:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from green@FreeBSD.org) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 03:22:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Fundakowski Feldman X-Sender: green@green.dyndns.org To: Chuck Paterson Cc: Matthew Dillon , Marius Bendiksen , Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Alterations to vops In-Reply-To: <200007090407.WAA01726@berserker.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 8 Jul 2000, Chuck Paterson wrote: > Do you some how know that you are having to fill zero page faults > from disk? I am not absolutely certain with regard to faulting data in from disk, but I am almost certain. This occurs with many applications that are too small to be paged out and of course also with ones with huge RSS. I haven't tried to mlock everything to be certain; is there any way to make all of a process's memory space wired? I don't know of one :-/ > Chuck -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 1:20: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B1A937B54F for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 01:20:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA25942; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 04:19:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 04:19:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: <20000709000458.M25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >Ok, I noticed that with a bit of hacking the snp device can be made >loadable. Making it unloadable is a bit of a pain, but I can >implement it using refcounting on the amount of ttys that have snp >devices hooked onto them so that the machine doesn't panic if you >unload it. > >The 'problem' that happens is that kern/tty.c now needs to include >snoop.h unconditionally, and it also has to provide some exernally >visible pointers to functions for the loadable snoop device to >hook into. > >Basically, does anyone have a problem with snp becoming loadable >before I commit to finishing off the work? (it's loadable now, but >not unloadable). Would it make sense to have a kernel option or something to disable this feature without using securelevels? I'm thinking of the situation of the owner of a computer is paranoid (or highly ethical) and strongly dislikes the snooping ability yet other root users on the machine might not have the same standards and try to sneak in a module to peek around quick or cause trouble with other users. As it is now you would have to cause quite a commotion by at least rebooting the machine... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 3:33:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E04737B62A for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 03:33:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e69AXTG18217; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 03:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 03:33:29 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Adam Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. Message-ID: <20000709033329.N25571@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000709000458.M25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from bsdx@looksharp.net on Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 04:19:59AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Adam [000709 01:20] wrote: > On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > >Ok, I noticed that with a bit of hacking the snp device can be made > >loadable. Making it unloadable is a bit of a pain, but I can > >implement it using refcounting on the amount of ttys that have snp > >devices hooked onto them so that the machine doesn't panic if you > >unload it. > > > >The 'problem' that happens is that kern/tty.c now needs to include > >snoop.h unconditionally, and it also has to provide some exernally > >visible pointers to functions for the loadable snoop device to > >hook into. > > > >Basically, does anyone have a problem with snp becoming loadable > >before I commit to finishing off the work? (it's loadable now, but > >not unloadable). > > Would it make sense to have a kernel option or something to disable this > feature without using securelevels? I'm thinking of the situation of the > owner of a computer is paranoid (or highly ethical) and strongly dislikes > the snooping ability yet other root users on the machine might not have > the same standards and try to sneak in a module to peek around quick or > cause trouble with other users. As it is now you would have to cause > quite a commotion by at least rebooting the machine... This is security through irritation, a well crafted kernel module could upsurp the tty subsystem and make snooping possible anyway. If you don't want it loadable (or possible) then you must raise securelevel. My initial implementation seemed to work just by loading the module, which was very strange considering that several calls into the snoop module weren't being made. It could have been a lack of sleep and I imagined this 'feature', but it's possible. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 6:10: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from danbala.tuwien.ac.at (danbala.ifoer.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.168.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A23837B63B; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 06:09:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wiz@danbala.tuwien.ac.at) Received: (from wiz@localhost) by danbala.tuwien.ac.at (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01506; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:09:25 +0200 (MEST) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:09:24 +0200 From: Thomas Klausner To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-kern@netbsd.org, tech@openbsd.org Cc: wiz@netbsd.org Subject: minherit(2) API Message-ID: <20000709150924.N23637@danbala.tuwien.ac.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, The user API for minherit(2) is broken on all three of {Free,Net,Open}BSD, but broken differently (for details see end of this mail). We would like to see a common fix that allows minherit to be used portably across the three systems. The API we propose: synopsis for minherit: #include int minherit(void *addr, size_t len, int inherit); constants for inherit parameter defined in sys/mman.h: #define MAP_INHERIT_SHARE 0 /* share with child */ #define MAP_INHERIT_COPY 1 /* copy into child */ #define MAP_INHERIT_NONE 2 /* absent from child */ possibly including the following: #define MAP_INHERIT_DONATE_COPY 3 /* copy and delete */ #define MAP_INHERIT_DEFAULT MAP_INHERIT_COPY (donate copy is not present in FreeBSD, default is not documented in the man pages of any of the three). We propose the addition of these constant definitions to sys/mman.h to avoid requiring the inclusion of kernel internal vm header files. We propose the renaming of these constants from VM_INHERIT_ to MAP_INHERIT_ to avoid name space pollution (the MAP_ prefix is reserved for sys/mman.h by POSIX, VM_ is not). That this change is not backwards compatible is of little concern, since it is currently broken anyway. Besides, a C program can check for the definition of the MAP_INHERIT_ constants after including sys/mman.h and include conditional workarounds for the current APIs. The current state of affairs on each system: FreeBSD: synopsis: #include #include int minherit(void *addr, size_t len, int inherit); VM_INHERIT_ constants are neither documented nor declared in any user header. NetBSD: synopsis: #include #include int minherit(void *addr, size_t len, int inherit); VM_INHERIT_ constants are not declared in any user header. OpenBSD: synopsis: #include #include #include int minherit(void *addr, size_t len, int inherit); vm/vm_inherit.h does not declare the type vm_inherit_t (but uses it for the definition of the VM_INHERIT_ constants); furthermore, vm/vm_inherit.h is an internal kernel header. I wasn't sure which FreeBSD mailing list is more appropriate, so I took both. Please CC: any answers to the other lists, too. Bye, Thomas Klausner -- Thomas Klausner - wiz@netbsd.org I wanted to emulate some of my heroes, but I didn't know their op-codes. --dowe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 6:26:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E775C37B7A5 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 06:26:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27390; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 09:26:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 09:26:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: <20000709033329.N25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >* Adam [000709 01:20] wrote: >> On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >> >> >Ok, I noticed that with a bit of hacking the snp device can be made >> >loadable. Making it unloadable is a bit of a pain, but I can >> >implement it using refcounting on the amount of ttys that have snp >> >devices hooked onto them so that the machine doesn't panic if you >> >unload it. >> > >> >The 'problem' that happens is that kern/tty.c now needs to include >> >snoop.h unconditionally, and it also has to provide some exernally >> >visible pointers to functions for the loadable snoop device to >> >hook into. >> > >> >Basically, does anyone have a problem with snp becoming loadable >> >before I commit to finishing off the work? (it's loadable now, but >> >not unloadable). >> >> Would it make sense to have a kernel option or something to disable this >> feature without using securelevels? I'm thinking of the situation of the >> owner of a computer is paranoid (or highly ethical) and strongly dislikes >> the snooping ability yet other root users on the machine might not have >> the same standards and try to sneak in a module to peek around quick or >> cause trouble with other users. As it is now you would have to cause >> quite a commotion by at least rebooting the machine... > >This is security through irritation, a well crafted kernel module >could upsurp the tty subsystem and make snooping possible anyway. > >If you don't want it loadable (or possible) then you must raise >securelevel. > >My initial implementation seemed to work just by loading the module, >which was very strange considering that several calls into the snoop >module weren't being made. It could have been a lack of sleep and >I imagined this 'feature', but it's possible. There are alot of people who have root that couldn't craft such a kernel module if they wanted to, and even if they could, I'd venture to say they'd need a whole bunch of motivation and a considerable amount of time. I cannot tell from the init manpage which securelevel is needed to prevent loading kernel modules but I'm pretty sure it would make things a pain in the butt for admins trying to do Real Work remotely such as upgrading the kernel. I think it would be nice to prevent easy snooping without making life hard for the admin. The kernel has all the power over the computer, I dont think this is an issue that should require engineering to prevent, I would like my kernel to just say NO. If I have to hack it so the snoop module wouldnt work if loaded or something, thats a pain for me since I couldnt code hello world from a blank editor if I wanted to. If I had to tell someone else they had to hack the kernel to prevent this or have the kernel get alot more anal in general about permissions, I don't think it would go over well, especially to someone less experienced than me. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 6:37:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE2C737B818; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 06:37:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p41-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.106]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id WAA16380; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 22:37:07 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3968683B.E7F55CDC@newsguy.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 20:55:39 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami Cc: papowell@astart.com, chuckr@picnic.mat.net, andrews@technologist.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG, drosih@rpi.edu, imp@village.org, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, sheldonh@uunet.co.za, will@almanac.yi.org Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues References: <200007082011.NAA26688@h4.private> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I guess I have been too silent in this discussion... I favour bringing in LPRng. For one reason: LPRng is safe, our lpd isn't. Having a "maintainer" is *NOT* going to make our lpd safe any time soon. It wasn't _designed_ with security in mind, and, as mentioned before, the standards don't help any. Our lpd has *one* advantage over LPRng: it's smaller. So we are left between choosing between something smaller and something (much) safer. That's a non-contest for me. Let our lpd live as tiny-ware for those who desperately need a smaller solution to printing. As a bonus, LPRng is much easier to manage. I personally think lpd is too arcane for something that the average user expects to be a non-issue. Though I'm even tempted to remove this paragraph, not to obscure my point... :-) Please, do not cloud this discussion with the "license issues". We already got permission to use a BSD licensed version, whose only difference is to announce itself as "FreeBSD LPRng" instead of just "LPRng". -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@the.great.underground.bsdconpiracy.org _DES: The Book of Bruce has only one sentence in it, and it says "the actual directives of my cult are left as an exercise for the reader. Good luck." jkh: does it really include the 'good luck' part? EE: OK, I made that part up. EE: I figured it should sound a bit more cheery than how Bruce initially dictated it to me. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 7: 1:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC1937B839 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 07:01:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p06-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.135]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id XAA23750; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:00:33 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3968839A.2A70D91F@newsguy.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:52:26 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adam Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Adam wrote: > > There are alot of people who have root that couldn't craft such a kernel > module if they wanted to, and even if they could, I'd venture to say > they'd need a whole bunch of motivation and a considerable amount of > time. I cannot tell from the init manpage which securelevel is needed to > prevent loading kernel modules but I'm pretty sure it would make things a > pain in the butt for admins trying to do Real Work remotely such as > upgrading the kernel. I think it would be nice to prevent easy snooping > without making life hard for the admin. The kernel has all the power over > the computer, I dont think this is an issue that should require > engineering to prevent, I would like my kernel to just say NO. If I have > to hack it so the snoop module wouldnt work if loaded or something, thats > a pain for me since I couldnt code hello world from a blank editor if I > wanted to. If I had to tell someone else they had to hack the kernel to > prevent this or have the kernel get alot more anal in general about > permissions, I don't think it would go over well, especially to someone > less experienced than me. This argument is completely flawed. Hackers use tools, which are available elsewhere. One of the best guides to kld programming is a guide to hacking FreeBSD. It's pretty simple: if there isn't an easier way of doing it, hackers will have a snooping kld available. All this stuff is done automatically, and the hacker needs know the first thing about Unix (if you want proof, go check the recent series on hacking that ran on both Slashdot and Daily DaemonNews). You gain nothing by not having such a module coming by default. Nothing. And I should remind you... if a hacker is able to load a module, he has gained root already. I garantee you that any hacker who has gained root already, unless your security is laughable, has access to the resources that provide such nifty modules/{ls,netstat,inet,etc} replacements/rooting tools. I'll say it again: DO NOT DEPEND ON SNOOP NOT BEING A LOADABLE MODULE. It is *POSSIBLE*, so you can pretty much rest assured that the hackers either have that, or something easier. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@the.great.underground.bsdconpiracy.org _DES: The Book of Bruce has only one sentence in it, and it says "the actual directives of my cult are left as an exercise for the reader. Good luck." jkh: does it really include the 'good luck' part? EE: OK, I made that part up. EE: I figured it should sound a bit more cheery than how Bruce initially dictated it to me. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 7:20:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.butya.kz (butya-gw.butya.kz [212.154.129.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5599837B839 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 07:20:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bp@butya.kz) Received: from bp (helo=localhost) by relay.butya.kz with local-esmtp (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13BHwU-000LAZ-00; Sun, 09 Jul 2000 21:20:22 +0700 Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 21:20:22 +0700 (ALMST) From: Boris Popov To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: <20000709000458.M25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > Basically, does anyone have a problem with snp becoming loadable > before I commit to finishing off the work? (it's loadable now, but > not unloadable). It is ok for me. More to the point - I've already had situations where snp device wasn't compiled in, and I had to rebuild kernel remotely and reboot machine just to help new admin. -- Boris Popov http://www.butya.kz/~bp/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 10:46:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EB0637BE74 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 10:46:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29079; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:45:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:45:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: <3968839A.2A70D91F@newsguy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >Adam wrote: >> >> There are alot of people who have root that couldn't craft such a kernel >> module if they wanted to, and even if they could, I'd venture to say >> they'd need a whole bunch of motivation and a considerable amount of >> time. I cannot tell from the init manpage which securelevel is needed to >> prevent loading kernel modules but I'm pretty sure it would make things a >> pain in the butt for admins trying to do Real Work remotely such as >> upgrading the kernel. I think it would be nice to prevent easy snooping >> without making life hard for the admin. The kernel has all the power over >> the computer, I dont think this is an issue that should require >> engineering to prevent, I would like my kernel to just say NO. If I have >> to hack it so the snoop module wouldnt work if loaded or something, thats >> a pain for me since I couldnt code hello world from a blank editor if I >> wanted to. If I had to tell someone else they had to hack the kernel to >> prevent this or have the kernel get alot more anal in general about >> permissions, I don't think it would go over well, especially to someone >> less experienced than me. > >This argument is completely flawed. Hackers use tools, which are >available elsewhere. One of the best guides to kld programming is a >guide to hacking FreeBSD. It's pretty simple: if there isn't an easier >way of doing it, hackers will have a snooping kld available. All this >stuff is done automatically, and the hacker needs know the first thing >about Unix (if you want proof, go check the recent series on hacking >that ran on both Slashdot and Daily DaemonNews). > >You gain nothing by not having such a module coming by default. Nothing. > >And I should remind you... if a hacker is able to load a module, he has >gained root already. I garantee you that any hacker who has gained root >already, unless your security is laughable, has access to the resources >that provide such nifty modules/{ls,netstat,inet,etc} >replacements/rooting tools. > >I'll say it again: DO NOT DEPEND ON SNOOP NOT BEING A LOADABLE MODULE. >It is *POSSIBLE*, so you can pretty much rest assured that the hackers >either have that, or something easier. > >-- >Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) I think you missed my point. I'm not talking about hackers at all; if a hacker can load a module the game is already over. I'm talking about legit people with root who might do things behind the back of the person who compiled the kernel without snp in the first place. If this change goes in, what do you do if you wish not to have snooping capable through the snp device and do not wish to lock unneccessary parts of the system down with securelevel? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 10:50:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACBD737B743 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 10:50:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17325; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 19:49:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Adam Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 09 Jul 2000 13:45:42 EDT." Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 19:49:44 +0200 Message-ID: <17323.963164984@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >If this change goes in, what do you do if you wish not to have snooping >capable through the snp device and do not wish to lock unneccessary parts >of the system down with securelevel? You do the same as before: Hold on tight to your root password. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 10:59:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay01.chello.nl (smtp.chello.nl [212.83.68.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC53737B569 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 10:59:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wkb@chello.nl) Received: from chello.nl ([213.46.78.184]) by relay01.chello.nl (InterMail vK.4.02.00.00 201-232-116 license 2ee4e7c625482f2f2a1950a80f6c8d58) with ESMTP id <20000709180033.TIDA8575.relay01@chello.nl>; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:00:33 +0200 Received: (from wkb@localhost) by chello.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA00730; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 19:59:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 19:59:26 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte To: Adam Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. Message-ID: <20000709195926.D552@freebie.wbnet> Reply-To: wilko@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3968839A.2A70D91F@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from bsdx@looksharp.net on Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 01:45:42PM -0400 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 01:45:42PM -0400, Adam wrote: > On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > > >Adam wrote: > I think you missed my point. I'm not talking about hackers at all; if a > hacker can load a module the game is already over. I'm talking about > legit people with root who might do things behind the back of the person > who compiled the kernel without snp in the first place. You should not give root to people who are not trusted/trustable. Or carry as sharp axe to keep them between the lines ;-) -- Wilko Bulte http://www.freebsd.org "Do, or do not. There is no try" wilko@freebsd.org http://www.nlfug.nl Yoda - The Empire Strikes Back To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 11:15:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9731E37B94B for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 11:15:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29332; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:12:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:12:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: <17323.963164984@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >>If this change goes in, what do you do if you wish not to have snooping >>capable through the snp device and do not wish to lock unneccessary parts >>of the system down with securelevel? > >You do the same as before: Hold on tight to your root password. I dont like kernel changes that make the kernel do less babysitting and me more. Tough, I guess. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 11:17:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C4537B94B for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 11:17:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17528; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:17:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Adam Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 09 Jul 2000 14:12:42 EDT." Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 20:17:20 +0200 Message-ID: <17526.963166640@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Adam writes: >On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >> >>>If this change goes in, what do you do if you wish not to have snooping >>>capable through the snp device and do not wish to lock unneccessary parts >>>of the system down with securelevel? >> >>You do the same as before: Hold on tight to your root password. > >I dont like kernel changes that make the kernel do less babysitting and me >more. Tough, I guess. You have always needed to babysit your root password. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 11:47:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B600A37B56E; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 11:47:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA76877; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:46:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:46:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami Cc: papowell@astart.com, andrews@technologist.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG, drosih@rpi.edu, imp@village.org, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, sheldonh@uunet.co.za, will@almanac.yi.org Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 9 Jul 2000, Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami wrote: > * From: papowell@astart.com > > * As I not in my posting, I am not adverse, and quite willing to put it > * under BSD license, but I would like to be able to have the actual executable > * 'identify its lineage' in some way, so that it is identifiable as the > * 'True Code', modified by somebody, or 'modified by corporation X'. > * > * This is perfectly reasonable and common. > > I agree. > > * > > * > On top of that, and this is a purely personal feeling, I think needing a > * > banner to print out every time your software starts up, well, that's a bit > > * h9: {455} % lpr -V > * LPRng-3.6.20, Copyright 1988-2000 Patrick Powell, > * > * > * I am a little bit baffled on this. What are you talking about? > > I think Chuck just got confused. :) He probably thought you wanted > lpr and lpd and whatnot to print the copyright message every time it > starts up. (Which is, of course, a bit too much.) Yeah, I was wrong, I thought it went off on every startup, not on the -V startup. I spent so much time getting my printer setup right (the last time, 3 months ago, when I bought a new printer) that I wouldn't change print setups now unless put under extreme duress. I didn't test the thing, else I would have seen it didn't print the banner every time. I should have reread it. > > I certainly see nothing weird or unreasonable about having the > commands print copyright information when the user asks explicitly, > and your request that the string include information about > modifications made by people other than yourself so you won't be > accused of breakages caused by fumblefinger.com. > > Satoshi > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 11:57: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791BE37B56E for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 11:56:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29862 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:57:02 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:57:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: <17526.963166640@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >In message , Adam >writes: >>On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> >>> >>>>If this change goes in, what do you do if you wish not to have snooping >>>>capable through the snp device and do not wish to lock unneccessary parts >>>>of the system down with securelevel? >>> >>>You do the same as before: Hold on tight to your root password. >> >>I dont like kernel changes that make the kernel do less babysitting and me >>more. Tough, I guess. > >You have always needed to babysit your root password. Ok, I give in to the argument. I would just like to make a wish. On Jan 24 1999 peter took the NO_LKM option out of LINT. I assume the support for it in other files was removed around that time also. Could someone implement a NO_KLD option so you dont need to use securelevel > 0 so people have an obvious option and dont have to know the kernel well enough to hack syscalls.master? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 12: 7:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB1B237B56E for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 12:07:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e69J75000772; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 12:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 12:07:05 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Adam Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. Message-ID: <20000709120705.Q25571@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <17526.963166640@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from bsdx@looksharp.net on Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 02:57:02PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Adam [000709 11:57] wrote: > On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > >In message , Adam > >writes: > >>On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >> > >>> > >>>>If this change goes in, what do you do if you wish not to have snooping > >>>>capable through the snp device and do not wish to lock unneccessary parts > >>>>of the system down with securelevel? > >>> > >>>You do the same as before: Hold on tight to your root password. > >> > >>I dont like kernel changes that make the kernel do less babysitting and me > >>more. Tough, I guess. > > > >You have always needed to babysit your root password. > > Ok, I give in to the argument. I would just like to make a wish. On Jan > 24 1999 peter took the NO_LKM option out of LINT. I assume the support > for it in other files was removed around that time also. Could someone > implement a NO_KLD option so you dont need to use securelevel > 0 so > people have an obvious option and dont have to know the kernel well enough > to hack syscalls.master? More security through obscurity when /dev/mem and /dev/kmem are accessable. Bite the bullet and up your securelevel! -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 12:35:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A844B37B51F for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 12:35:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA30164; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:35:28 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:35:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: <20000709120705.Q25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >* Adam [000709 11:57] wrote: >> On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> >> >In message , Adam >> >writes: >> >>On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> >> >> >>> >> >>>>If this change goes in, what do you do if you wish not to have snooping >> >>>>capable through the snp device and do not wish to lock unneccessary parts >> >>>>of the system down with securelevel? >> >>> >> >>>You do the same as before: Hold on tight to your root password. >> >> >> >>I dont like kernel changes that make the kernel do less babysitting and me >> >>more. Tough, I guess. >> > >> >You have always needed to babysit your root password. >> >> Ok, I give in to the argument. I would just like to make a wish. On Jan >> 24 1999 peter took the NO_LKM option out of LINT. I assume the support >> for it in other files was removed around that time also. Could someone >> implement a NO_KLD option so you dont need to use securelevel > 0 so >> people have an obvious option and dont have to know the kernel well enough >> to hack syscalls.master? > >More security through obscurity when /dev/mem and /dev/kmem are >accessable. > >Bite the bullet and up your securelevel! > >-Alfred Why did it exist from FreeBSD-WhoKnowsWhen until 1999? I'd like to use X via startx and not xdm too. I dont recall FreeBSD allowing X to start after securelevel is > 0 because it accesses /dev/mem. If it does now, I'll shut up. I tried searching the mail archives for discussions about why NO_LKM is bad but couldn't find anything. Could you help me find a discussion on it or tell me why disabling kernel modules is *not* security? Assuming I'd notice a reboot and would consequently whup some butt if someone did. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 12:40:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from astart2.astart.com (astart2.astart.com [206.71.174.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED4F437BFAA; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 12:40:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from papowell@astart.com) Received: from h4.private (papowell@h4.private [10.0.0.4]) by astart2.astart.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00850; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 12:40:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from papowell@localhost) by h4.private (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA21388; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 12:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 12:39:40 -0700 (PDT) From: papowell@astart.com Message-Id: <200007091939.MAA21388@h4.private> To: asami@FreeBSD.ORG, chuckr@picnic.mat.net Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Cc: andrews@technologist.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG, drosih@rpi.edu, imp@village.org, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com, sheldonh@uunet.co.za, will@almanac.yi.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > From chuckr@picnic.mat.net Sun Jul 9 11:47:13 2000 > Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:46:46 -0400 (EDT) > From: Chuck Robey > To: Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami > cc: papowell@astart.com, andrews@technologist.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG, > drosih@rpi.edu, imp@village.org, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, sheldonh@uunet.co.za, > will@almanac.yi.org > Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues > > > I think Chuck just got confused. :) He probably thought you wanted > > lpr and lpd and whatnot to print the copyright message every time it > > starts up. (Which is, of course, a bit too much.) > > Yeah, I was wrong, I thought it went off on every startup, not on the -V > startup. > > I spent so much time getting my printer setup right (the last time, 3 > months ago, when I bought a new printer) that I wouldn't change print > setups now unless put under extreme duress. I didn't test the thing, else > I would have seen it didn't print the banner every time. > > I should have reread it. > This is THE major reason WHY I want to clean up printing, to get it set up in a SANE and uniform manner across ALL platforms. Yes. Even Microsoft... Now put down the tar and feathers and pay some attention :-) Everybody spends too much time setting up and making printing work. Each little UNIX/Linux/Solaris/HP/... empire has its own little printing ghetto, where you have to spend an enormous effort learning the majic incantations. And there are damn few printing wizards on call. And once you get printing set up you NEVER EVER want to do it again. So even it if is almost broken, until it gets to a crisis you won't touch it. And when you are in crisis mode you don't want to spend time, effort and energy to learn how to set up a new and different printing system. This, in the immortal words of Randolf ("My Favorite Felon") Schwartz, "Sucks big time." My current project is to try to civilize this for the UNIX world. This is being done by putting the following stuff together: a) creating AND PUBLISHING an open source print system that will meet or exceed the capabilities of any commercial system so that there will be NO NEED for printing ghettos. This is currently funded by selling support for LPRng. b) having a text, curses, or X based system that will generate a printer printcap entry and update the printcap with it. This is proving to be a little harder than I thought it would. The back end is trivial - you can set up a database of all the printers and driver stuff, but the front end requires Novice User proofing... Much harder than Idiot Proofing, as Novice Users will try things not even Idiots would do :-). I am trying to get people to work on this, but most people who start on it soon lose interest as it is NOT a glamorous, interesting, or 'neat' thing to do. c) Documentation. There are several classes of this. a) Single printer on your single system. Examples: Linux Printing HOWTO, RedHat 'Printing Answers' (Don't sneer at these - they are VERY helpful). FreeBSD HandBook chapter on Printing. b) Tutorial on the Tough Stuff - LPRng HOWTO, Part 1 c) Reference on the Tough Stuff - LPRng HOWTO, Part 2 d) Database of Printer Information This is a real problem - it is a manpower issue in getting the data made available. Patrick Powell Astart Technologies, papowell@astart.com 9475 Chesapeake Drive, Suite D, Network and System San Diego, CA 92123 Consulting 858-874-6543 FAX 858-279-8424 LPRng - Print Spooler (http://www.astart.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 13:14: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4744737B6A4 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:14:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e69KDoQ02477; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:13:50 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Adam Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. Message-ID: <20000709131350.S25571@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000709120705.Q25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from bsdx@looksharp.net on Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 03:35:28PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Adam [000709 12:36] wrote: > > Why did it exist from FreeBSD-WhoKnowsWhen until 1999? I'd like to use X > via startx and not xdm too. I dont recall FreeBSD allowing X to start > after securelevel is > 0 because it accesses /dev/mem. If it does now, > I'll shut up. I tried searching the mail archives for discussions about > why NO_LKM is bad but couldn't find anything. Could you help me find a > discussion on it or tell me why disabling kernel modules is *not* > security? Assuming I'd notice a reboot and would consequently whup some > butt if someone did. If I had root and wasn't such a nice guy (*grin*) you wouldn't know which way was up if I took the time to do so. Please properly secure your box. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 13:20:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A43E37B6A4 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:20:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA30483; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:20:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:20:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: <20000709131350.S25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >* Adam [000709 12:36] wrote: >> >> Why did it exist from FreeBSD-WhoKnowsWhen until 1999? I'd like to use X >> via startx and not xdm too. I dont recall FreeBSD allowing X to start >> after securelevel is > 0 because it accesses /dev/mem. If it does now, >> I'll shut up. I tried searching the mail archives for discussions about >> why NO_LKM is bad but couldn't find anything. Could you help me find a >> discussion on it or tell me why disabling kernel modules is *not* >> security? Assuming I'd notice a reboot and would consequently whup some >> butt if someone did. > >If I had root and wasn't such a nice guy (*grin*) you wouldn't >know which way was up if I took the time to do so. > >Please properly secure your box. What about X? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 13:23:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (server.geekhouse.net [64.81.6.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CD5B37B6A4 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:23:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (root@john.baldwin.cx [192.168.1.18]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15803; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:23:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: (from john@localhost) by john.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA81999; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:24:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john) Message-Id: <200007092024.NAA81999@john.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 13:24:56 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Adam Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 09-Jul-00 Adam wrote: > On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >>In message , Adam >>writes: >>>On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>>If this change goes in, what do you do if you wish not to have snooping >>>>>capable through the snp device and do not wish to lock unneccessary parts >>>>>of the system down with securelevel? >>>> >>>>You do the same as before: Hold on tight to your root password. >>> >>>I dont like kernel changes that make the kernel do less babysitting and me >>>more. Tough, I guess. >> >>You have always needed to babysit your root password. > > Ok, I give in to the argument. I would just like to make a wish. On Jan > 24 1999 peter took the NO_LKM option out of LINT. I assume the support > for it in other files was removed around that time also. Could someone > implement a NO_KLD option so you dont need to use securelevel > 0 so > people have an obvious option and dont have to know the kernel well enough > to hack syscalls.master? Patches accepted. :) Seriously, if you come up with a patchset I'll look at it and see about getting it in the tree. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 13:25:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DE9737B6A4; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:25:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA30509; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:25:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:25:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: John Baldwin Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: <200007092024.NAA81999@john.baldwin.cx> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, John Baldwin wrote: > >On 09-Jul-00 Adam wrote: >> On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> >>>In message , Adam >>>writes: >>>>On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>If this change goes in, what do you do if you wish not to have snooping >>>>>>capable through the snp device and do not wish to lock unneccessary parts >>>>>>of the system down with securelevel? >>>>> >>>>>You do the same as before: Hold on tight to your root password. >>>> >>>>I dont like kernel changes that make the kernel do less babysitting and me >>>>more. Tough, I guess. >>> >>>You have always needed to babysit your root password. >> >> Ok, I give in to the argument. I would just like to make a wish. On Jan >> 24 1999 peter took the NO_LKM option out of LINT. I assume the support >> for it in other files was removed around that time also. Could someone >> implement a NO_KLD option so you dont need to use securelevel > 0 so >> people have an obvious option and dont have to know the kernel well enough >> to hack syscalls.master? > >Patches accepted. :) Seriously, if you come up with a patchset >I'll look at it and see about getting it in the tree. > >John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ Thanks for the offer, but I've already mentioned in an earlier email I couldnt code hello world without documentation if my life depended on it. If it helps, I think you can use X in netbsd in higher securelevels. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 13:30:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2AC337BE3D; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:30:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA30544; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:30:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:30:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: John Baldwin Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>> Ok, I give in to the argument. I would just like to make a wish. On Jan >>> 24 1999 peter took the NO_LKM option out of LINT. I assume the support >>> for it in other files was removed around that time also. Could someone >>> implement a NO_KLD option so you dont need to use securelevel > 0 so >>> people have an obvious option and dont have to know the kernel well enough >>> to hack syscalls.master? >> >>Patches accepted. :) Seriously, if you come up with a patchset >>I'll look at it and see about getting it in the tree. >> >>John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ > >Thanks for the offer, but I've already mentioned in an earlier email I >couldnt code hello world without documentation if my life depended on >it. If it helps, I think you can use X in netbsd in higher securelevels. Oops, duh, replied to the wrong subject. I'll try to find the commits removing NO_LKM support and see what I can do, it might be similar. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 13:33:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (server.geekhouse.net [64.81.6.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CE8637BC18 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:33:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (root@john.baldwin.cx [192.168.1.18]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15861; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:33:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: (from john@localhost) by john.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA82028; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:34:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john) Message-Id: <200007092034.NAA82028@john.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 13:34:40 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Adam Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, Alfred Perlstein Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 09-Jul-00 Adam wrote: > On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > >>* Adam [000709 12:36] wrote: >>> >>> Why did it exist from FreeBSD-WhoKnowsWhen until 1999? I'd like to use X >>> via startx and not xdm too. I dont recall FreeBSD allowing X to start >>> after securelevel is > 0 because it accesses /dev/mem. If it does now, >>> I'll shut up. I tried searching the mail archives for discussions about >>> why NO_LKM is bad but couldn't find anything. Could you help me find a >>> discussion on it or tell me why disabling kernel modules is *not* >>> security? Assuming I'd notice a reboot and would consequently whup some >>> butt if someone did. >> >>If I had root and wasn't such a nice guy (*grin*) you wouldn't >>know which way was up if I took the time to do so. >> >>Please properly secure your box. > > What about X? Don't run X on a multiroot box? -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 14: 2:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from astart2.astart.com (astart2.astart.com [206.71.174.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37A5E37BF55; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:02:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from papowell@astart.com) Received: from h4.private (papowell@h4.private [10.0.0.4]) by astart2.astart.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01010; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from papowell@localhost) by h4.private (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA21518; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:02:16 -0700 (PDT) From: papowell@astart.com Message-Id: <200007092102.OAA21518@h4.private> To: drosih@rpi.edu, imp@village.org, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Cc: andrews@technologist.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, sheldonh@uunet.co.za, will@almanac.yi.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Let me try to state this as clearly as possible: If the FreeBSD project wants to distribute LPRng under the BSD license, then I will give them a license to distribute it under the BSD license terms. I would add the following two provisions in addition to standard BSD License terms: A) The copyright and version information must be able to be displayed on request at run time by use of the appropriate command line option. If the LPRng distribution is to be used under the terms of the BSD license, this must be shown in the information displayed at run time. The standard BSD license does not prevent the user from changing the information displayed by the -V option, or even removing it from display. I just want to make sure that it is retained AND is able to be displayed from a command line, and that the license terms under which they are using this is identified if they are using the BSD license. B) If modifications are made to this distribution then this must be indicate by a notice in the source code and/or effected binaries, and the notice displayed at run as part of the copyright and version information. The information must include the name or identity of the person or entity modifying the code and the date of modification or release if applicable. For example: ORIGINAL LPRng Distribution, compiled from source, no changes: ## lpc -V LPRng-3.6.19, Copyright 1988-2000 Patrick Powell, LPRng distributed with FreeBSD under the BSD license: ## lpc -V LPRng-3.6.19, Copyright 1988-2000 Patrick Powell, FreeBSD Project, 2000-07-07, Distributed under BSD license, http://www.freebsd.org Modified by somebody AND NOT JUST RECOMPILED: ## lpc -V LPRng-3.6.19, Copyright 1988-2000 Patrick Powell, FreeBSD Project, 2000-07-07, BSD License, modified by: FumbleFingerd Corp, version 1.10, 2000-Jan-05, What is wrong with retaining the ability to display copyright information from the command line options? What undue burden does it place on commercial users of FreeBSD? And if they modify the code, wouldn't it be good Systems Engineering Practice to have some way to verify that? Patrick Powell Astart Technologies, papowell@astart.com 9475 Chesapeake Drive, Suite D, Network and System San Diego, CA 92123 Consulting 858-874-6543 FAX 858-279-8424 LPRng - Print Spooler (http://www.astart.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 14:18:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA2D537C0B0; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:18:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA85945; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:18:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:18:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Hajimu UMEMOTO Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: IPv6 startup (Re: cvs commit: src/etc rc.network6) In-Reply-To: <200007092012.NAA79176@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Hajimu UMEMOTO wrote: > ume 2000/07/09 13:12:50 PDT > > Modified files: > etc rc.network6 > Log: > - Remove use of programs in /usr like sed as possible. In this > time, I have no idea if there is equivalence of printf. So, stf > setup still depends on /usr. In addition, prefix(8) and gifconfig(8) > are in /usr/sbin. Should we move these into /sbin? I think we should. They would be needed if one wanted to use ipv6 or an ipv6-in-4 tunnel during the boot process, right? Should we move setkey(8) as well, in case one wanted to do e.g. NFS-over-IPSEC mounts? Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 14:35:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mimer.webgiro.com (mimer.webgiro.com [212.209.29.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA0837B669 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:35:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by mimer.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id D51232DC0A; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:40:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 858D27817; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:34:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7874610E17; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:34:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:34:49 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: papowell@astart.com Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-Reply-To: <200007092102.OAA21518@h4.private> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 9 Jul 2000 papowell@astart.com wrote: > Let me try to state this as clearly as possible: > > If the FreeBSD project wants to distribute LPRng under the BSD > license, then I will give them a license to distribute it under > the BSD license terms. I would add the following two provisions > in addition to standard BSD License terms: > > A) The copyright and version information must be able to be > B) If modifications are made to this distribution then this must > What is wrong with retaining the ability to display copyright > information from the command line options? What undue burden does > it place on commercial users of FreeBSD? And if they modify the > code, wouldn't it be good Systems Engineering Practice to have > some way to verify that? Patrick, Your LPRng is a good, solid software, and you are very forthcoming with the license issues - I think, based on what you just said, we shouldn't have any license-related objections. However, there are other arguments in this discussion that are valid concerns (things like size, compatibility with our (t)rusty lpd and other OS's lpd, etc..). IMHO, if we (FreeBSD) want to handle this properly, we simply should focus on technical issues, now that the license issues are gone, and make the judgement based on technical merits, not politics. And IMHO importing LPRng offers more benefits than drawbacks (if any). Similar scenarios happened to other, "traditional" (=antiquated) programs - some of them came to the tree from external maintainers that developed newer, enhanced versions (most of the stuff in contrib), some others (like test, csh, ntp) are complete replacements. We could do the same with LPRng. Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 14:57:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 605E837BAAB; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:57:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA31205; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 17:57:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 17:57:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: John Baldwin Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: <200007092024.NAA81999@john.baldwin.cx> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, John Baldwin wrote: > >On 09-Jul-00 Adam wrote: >> On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> >>>In message , Adam >>>writes: >>>>On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>If this change goes in, what do you do if you wish not to have snooping >>>>>>capable through the snp device and do not wish to lock unneccessary parts >>>>>>of the system down with securelevel? >>>>> >>>>>You do the same as before: Hold on tight to your root password. >>>> >>>>I dont like kernel changes that make the kernel do less babysitting and me >>>>more. Tough, I guess. >>> >>>You have always needed to babysit your root password. >> >> Ok, I give in to the argument. I would just like to make a wish. On Jan >> 24 1999 peter took the NO_LKM option out of LINT. I assume the support >> for it in other files was removed around that time also. Could someone >> implement a NO_KLD option so you dont need to use securelevel > 0 so >> people have an obvious option and dont have to know the kernel well enough >> to hack syscalls.master? > >Patches accepted. :) Seriously, if you come up with a patchset >I'll look at it and see about getting it in the tree. > >John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ Okay, I have no idea what these SYSINIT's are supposed to do but this file seems to be the KLD equiv of kern_lkm. options NO_LKM (as added in 1.47 and cleaned up in 1.48 of kern_lkm.c) added an #ifndef around the line SYSINIT(lkmdev,SI_SUB_DRIVERS,SI_ORDER_MIDDLE+CDEV_MAJOR,lkm_drvinit,NULL) The lines with SYSINIT in kern_linker.c are: SYSINIT(linker, SI_SUB_KLD, SI_ORDER_FIRST, linker_init, 0); SYSINIT(linker_kernel, SI_SUB_KLD, SI_ORDER_ANY, linker_init_kernel_modules, 0); SYSINIT(preload, SI_SUB_KLD, SI_ORDER_MIDDLE, linker_preload, 0); I'm not quite sure which one would get #ifndef'ed, or if thats even still the right way to do it, any ideas? I'm working on updating an old -current box to check it out. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 15: 8:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (server.geekhouse.net [64.81.6.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED27C37BAAB for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:08:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (root@john.baldwin.cx [192.168.1.18]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16292; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:08:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: (from john@localhost) by john.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA00589; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:09:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john) Message-Id: <200007092209.PAA00589@john.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 15:09:14 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Adam Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 09-Jul-00 Adam wrote: > On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, John Baldwin wrote: > >> >>On 09-Jul-00 Adam wrote: >>> On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>> >>>>In message , Adam >>>>writes: >>>>>On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>If this change goes in, what do you do if you wish not to have snooping >>>>>>>capable through the snp device and do not wish to lock unneccessary parts >>>>>>>of the system down with securelevel? >>>>>> >>>>>>You do the same as before: Hold on tight to your root password. >>>>> >>>>>I dont like kernel changes that make the kernel do less babysitting and me >>>>>more. Tough, I guess. >>>> >>>>You have always needed to babysit your root password. >>> >>> Ok, I give in to the argument. I would just like to make a wish. On Jan >>> 24 1999 peter took the NO_LKM option out of LINT. I assume the support >>> for it in other files was removed around that time also. Could someone >>> implement a NO_KLD option so you dont need to use securelevel > 0 so >>> people have an obvious option and dont have to know the kernel well enough >>> to hack syscalls.master? >> >>Patches accepted. :) Seriously, if you come up with a patchset >>I'll look at it and see about getting it in the tree. >> >>John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ > > Okay, I have no idea what these SYSINIT's are supposed to do but this file > seems to be the KLD equiv of kern_lkm. options NO_LKM (as added in 1.47 > and cleaned up in 1.48 of kern_lkm.c) added an #ifndef around the line > SYSINIT(lkmdev,SI_SUB_DRIVERS,SI_ORDER_MIDDLE+CDEV_MAJOR,lkm_drvinit,NULL) > > The lines with SYSINIT in kern_linker.c are: > SYSINIT(linker, SI_SUB_KLD, SI_ORDER_FIRST, linker_init, 0); > SYSINIT(linker_kernel, SI_SUB_KLD, SI_ORDER_ANY, > linker_init_kernel_modules, 0); > SYSINIT(preload, SI_SUB_KLD, SI_ORDER_MIDDLE, linker_preload, 0); > > I'm not quite sure which one would get #ifndef'ed, or if thats even still > the right way to do it, any ideas? I'm working on updating an old > -current box to check it out. Hmm, the person to ask is Peter Wemm, or to just read the source. I can look at it tomorrow at work though. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 15:13:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from jasper.nighttide.net (jasper.nighttide.net [216.227.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9556D37B9E6; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:13:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from darren@nighttide.net) Received: from localhost (darren@localhost) by jasper.nighttide.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA13907; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 18:08:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 18:08:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Darren Henderson To: papowell@astart.com Cc: drosih@rpi.edu, imp@village.org, andrews@technologist.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, sheldonh@uunet.co.za, will@almanac.yi.org Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-Reply-To: <200007092102.OAA21518@h4.private> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 9 Jul 2000 papowell@astart.com wrote: > > What is wrong with retaining the ability to display copyright > information from the command line options? What undue burden does > it place on commercial users of FreeBSD? And if they modify the Yet another license variation. > code, wouldn't it be good Systems Engineering Practice to have > some way to verify that? They have to retain the copyright info in the source so the information is there. The package is in ports and it doesn't seem anyone is advocating that it be removed. If it is to be in the primary distribution then it should have the same, not the same with a proviso, license, if at all possible. If it can not have the same license then there needs to be some hugely overiding need to bring in into the core. That doesn't seem to be the case. ______________________________________________________________________ Darren Henderson darren@nighttide.net Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 16:34:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965DF37B90E; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:34:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA12313; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:34:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:34:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200007092334.QAA12313@apollo.backplane.com> To: Brian Fundakowski Feldman Cc: Marius Bendiksen , Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alterations to vops References: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG : :I'm still missing something. Why does a process that isn't doing anything :on the filesystem still freezing? My disks are DMA, so there shouldn't be :any tim ethat the kernel is busy-waiting for a seek, right? You explained :why the I/O from one process can totally destroy the I/O bandwidth of the :other, thank you :), but I don't see how that relates to the other part :of this problem. : :-- : Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / It *is* doing something w/ the filesystem. If you are talking about vi, which was your earlier message, the first time you go into an edit mode vi creates a spill file. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 16:40:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dt052n3e.san.rr.com (dt052n3e.san.rr.com [204.210.33.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A624B37B90E for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:40:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt052n3e.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA65796; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:40:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <39690D64.B2D77A89@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 16:40:20 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. References: <20000709000458.M25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein wrote: > Basically, does anyone have a problem with snp becoming loadable > before I commit to finishing off the work? (it's loadable now, but > not unloadable). Just a "me too" to say that I think this is a good idea. Admins who really really don't want this to be loaded should bump securelevel. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 16:40:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay.eunet.no (mail-relay.eunet.no [193.71.71.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E76737BBE7 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:40:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (login-1.eunet.no [193.75.110.2]) by mail-relay.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.3/GN) with ESMTP id BAA86133; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:40:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA88595; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:40:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:40:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Adam Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > upgrading the kernel. I think it would be nice to prevent easy snooping > without making life hard for the admin. The kernel has all the power over > the computer, I dont think this is an issue that should require > engineering to prevent, I would like my kernel to just say NO. If I have This is an issue of trusting the other administrators. If you don't do so, then you _are_ going to have a hard life. As to the securelevel bits, IIRC then Dag-Erling was working on getting rid of straight securelevels. You might have a chat with him about that. Marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 16:46: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay.eunet.no (mail-relay.eunet.no [193.71.71.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D96637B52D for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:46:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (login-1.eunet.no [193.75.110.2]) by mail-relay.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.3/GN) with ESMTP id BAA86515; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:45:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA88611; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:45:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:45:59 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Adam Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think you missed my point. I'm not talking about hackers at all; if a > hacker can load a module the game is already over. I'm talking about > legit people with root who might do things behind the back of the person > who compiled the kernel without snp in the first place. This constitutes illigitimate use of superpowers, in my book. Clear such things with your coadmins in advance. If you cannot trust them to stick with your policy decisions, then they should not have root in the first place. And if you actually give them root, then you've really shot your self in the foot, which Unix is supposed to do without asking any questions, provided you point the gun in that direction, and pull the trigger. > If this change goes in, what do you do if you wish not to have snooping > capable through the snp device and do not wish to lock unneccessary parts > of the system down with securelevel? You rewrite the securelevel code, or pay someone to do so. Or, as a very, very limited way of making it more work for the would-be snooper, you could remove the snoop module and sources. Not that it would be any work for them to get hold of it anyhow. And, as DCS stated, there are pre-made klds out there which would assist them better in this illegitimate use, anyhow. Marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 16:47:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay.eunet.no (mail-relay.eunet.no [193.71.71.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D337D37B92F for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:47:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (login-1.eunet.no [193.75.110.2]) by mail-relay.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.3/GN) with ESMTP id BAA86630; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:47:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA88619; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:47:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:47:43 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Adam Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , "Daniel C. Sobral" , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I dont like kernel changes that make the kernel do less babysitting and me > more. Tough, I guess. I believe it is general consensus that Unix should be a tool to be used or abused as the end-user sees fit, to the extent that the admin fails to do such babysitting himself, and that it is Unix' task to avoid babysitting to whatever extent is possible. Marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 16:50:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dt052n3e.san.rr.com (dt052n3e.san.rr.com [204.210.33.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D765437B631; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:50:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt052n3e.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA65859; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:48:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <39690F48.A2F25162@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 16:48:24 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: papowell@astart.com Cc: drosih@rpi.edu, imp@village.org, andrews@technologist.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, sheldonh@uunet.co.za, will@almanac.yi.org Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues References: <200007092102.OAA21518@h4.private> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG papowell@astart.com wrote: > > Let me try to state this as clearly as possible: . . . > What is wrong with retaining the ability to display copyright > information from the command line options? What undue burden does > it place on commercial users of FreeBSD? And if they modify the > code, wouldn't it be good Systems Engineering Practice to have > some way to verify that? I don't think anyone objects to displaying the original copyright information, and information on who modified what when a command line option for that purpose is added to an lprng command. I don't think that anyone would even object to it being included in usage(). From my perspective, I think that some people misunderstood what you were asking for, and thought that you wanted to display this information every time a command was used. Myself, I was a bit confused about exactly what you were asking for, and I appreciate you clearing it up. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 16:54:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay.eunet.no (mail-relay.eunet.no [193.71.71.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0409637B631 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:54:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (login-1.eunet.no [193.75.110.2]) by mail-relay.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.3/GN) with ESMTP id BAA87116; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:54:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA88632; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:54:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:54:06 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Adam Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Why did it exist from FreeBSD-WhoKnowsWhen until 1999? I'd like to use X As I recall, this had something to do with shrinking the kernel for PicoBSD, amongst other things. > why NO_LKM is bad but couldn't find anything. Could you help me find a > discussion on it or tell me why disabling kernel modules is *not* > security? Assuming I'd notice a reboot and would consequently whup some > butt if someone did. Thing is; disabling kernel modules will avail you little, as an illegitimate user can still use the memory devices to access physical memory, and thus binary patch a live kernel. This is hard, but it can, and has been done. Eivind mentioned one particular case with a person who binary-patched the kernel of an old Unix to bypass the 14 character file name length limitation without severing the uptime. Marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 16:57:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4048937BAD7 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:57:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e69Nv3V08478; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:57:03 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: Adam , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. Message-ID: <20000709165702.V25571@fw.wintelcom.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from mbendiks@eunet.no on Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 01:54:06AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Marius Bendiksen [000709 16:54] wrote: > > Why did it exist from FreeBSD-WhoKnowsWhen until 1999? I'd like to use X > > As I recall, this had something to do with shrinking the kernel for > PicoBSD, amongst other things. > > > why NO_LKM is bad but couldn't find anything. Could you help me find a > > discussion on it or tell me why disabling kernel modules is *not* > > security? Assuming I'd notice a reboot and would consequently whup some > > butt if someone did. > > Thing is; disabling kernel modules will avail you little, as an > illegitimate user can still use the memory devices to access physical > memory, and thus binary patch a live kernel. This is hard, but it can, and > has been done. Eivind mentioned one particular case with a person who > binary-patched the kernel of an old Unix to bypass the 14 character file > name length limitation without severing the uptime. I owe that person a beer. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 17:24:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from astart2.astart.com (astart2.astart.com [206.71.174.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BA5E37B926; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 17:24:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from papowell@astart.com) Received: from h4.private (papowell@h4.private [10.0.0.4]) by astart2.astart.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01376; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 17:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from papowell@localhost) by h4.private (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA21882; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 17:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 17:23:02 -0700 (PDT) From: papowell@astart.com Message-Id: <200007100023.RAA21882@h4.private> To: darren@nighttide.net, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Cc: andrews@technologist.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG, drosih@rpi.edu, imp@village.org, nik@FreeBSD.ORG, sheldonh@uunet.co.za, will@almanac.yi.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > What is wrong with retaining the ability to display copyright > > information from the command line options? What undue burden does > > it place on commercial users of FreeBSD? And if they modify the > > Yet another license variation. > > > code, wouldn't it be good Systems Engineering Practice to have > > some way to verify that? > > They have to retain the copyright info in the source so the information is > there. > > The package is in ports and it doesn't seem anyone is advocating that it > be removed. If it is to be in the primary distribution then it should have > the same, not the same with a proviso, license, if at all possible. If it > can not have the same license then there needs to be some hugely overiding > need to bring in into the core. That doesn't seem to be the case. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Darren Henderson darren@nighttide.net > > Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/ > The problem is that you can have binary only distributions, and then you cannot see the version information. You may also have versions that are 'invisible' and cannot even examine the binaries for license information. For example, you can put together a PicoBSD system for a say, firewall, that does not have any easy command line method to determine the version of software being run. I have run into this too many times... Let me explain how I would put the LPRng distribution into the FreeBSD Project. Say for the sake of argument you put it into the 'contrib' tree: /usr/src/contrib/LPRng/Makefile <--- LPRng-VERSION/.... <- standard distribution (You would also have this in the Ports Tree: /usr/ports/sysutils/LPRng/Makefile work/LPRng-VERSION <- untarred image ) To put the latest version of LPRng into the contrib tree you would do: cd /usr/src/contrib/LPRng rm -rf LPRng-OldVERSION tar zxvf LPRng-VERSION make newversion VERSION=LPRng-VERSION <- target in Makefile At this point all of the Makefiles are set up for simply doing: cd /usr/src/contrib/LPRng make all install Now you might wonder about the 'make newversion' stuff. Here is a 'toy template' of the makefile that would be used: # $FreeBSD: src/usr.sbin/lpr/Makefile,v 1.5 1999/08/28 01:16:45 peter Exp $ SUBDIR= ${VERSION} VERSION=LPRng-VERSION CONFIGURE_OPTIONS=......... BSD_MAKE=YES # Use this to update Makefile for the latest version update: perl -spi 's/^VERSION=.*/VERSION=${VERSION}/' Makefile # Use this after you have updated the Makefile with the new # version configure: cd $(VERSION); ./configure ${CONFIGURE_OPTIONS} newversion: # you want to use the update Makefile ${MAKE} update ${MAKE} configure .include Ummm... any resemblance between this code and the code in the ports distribution Makefile is intentional. OK, now what about the fact that LPRng uses (by default) GNU Make? The BSD_MAKE=YES will cause configure to invoke a perl script that updates the GNU Make Makefile to the BSD Make Makefile. Turns out that there are only a very few places where things are different and I have been through this once already. Patrick Powell Astart Technologies, papowell@astart.com 9475 Chesapeake Drive, Suite D, Network and System San Diego, CA 92123 Consulting 858-874-6543 FAX 858-279-8424 LPRng - Print Spooler (http://www.astart.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 17:37:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from cypherpunks.ai (cypherpunks.ai [209.88.68.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B18D237C126 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 17:37:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeroen@vangelderen.org) Received: from vangelderen.org (grolsch.ai [209.88.68.214]) by cypherpunks.ai (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3F004D; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:37:08 -0400 (AST) Message-ID: <39691AB4.BBC85D45@vangelderen.org> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 20:37:08 -0400 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Adam , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. References: <17526.963166640@critter.freebsd.dk> <20000709120705.Q25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > * Adam [000709 11:57] wrote: > > On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > > >In message , Adam > > >writes: > > >>On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > >> > > >>> > > >>>>If this change goes in, what do you do if you wish not to have snooping > > >>>>capable through the snp device and do not wish to lock unneccessary parts > > >>>>of the system down with securelevel? > > >>> > > >>>You do the same as before: Hold on tight to your root password. > > >> > > >>I dont like kernel changes that make the kernel do less babysitting and me > > >>more. Tough, I guess. > > > > > >You have always needed to babysit your root password. > > > > Ok, I give in to the argument. I would just like to make a wish. On Jan > > 24 1999 peter took the NO_LKM option out of LINT. I assume the support > > for it in other files was removed around that time also. Could someone > > implement a NO_KLD option so you dont need to use securelevel > 0 so > > people have an obvious option and dont have to know the kernel well enough > > to hack syscalls.master? > > More security through obscurity when /dev/mem and /dev/kmem are > accessable. Nope, this is a valid request nonetheless. It doesn't give perfect security but neither does SSH. There is a whole lot more people who can write a kld than there is people that can patch a running kernel trough /dev/mem. Implementing a NO_KLD option would be harmless and have good uses on boxes where the secure level *cannot* be upped. It doesn't affect security negatively if one doesn't use it. It's not up to you to dictate what Adam should do. Neither is it my job to tell you that you must verify all SSH host-key fingerprints before you accept them! > Bite the bullet and up your securelevel! Not a good idea on all systems. Convenience sometimes outweighs security. FreeBSD is about tools, not about policy. Cheers, Jeroen -- Jeroen C. van Gelderen o _ _ _ jeroen@vangelderen.org _o /\_ _ \\o (_)\__/o (_) _< \_ _>(_) (_)/<_ \_| \ _|/' \/ (_)>(_) (_) (_) (_) (_)' _\o_ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 17:38:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from cypherpunks.ai (cypherpunks.ai [209.88.68.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91BD837C16B for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 17:38:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeroen@vangelderen.org) Received: from vangelderen.org (grolsch.ai [209.88.68.214]) by cypherpunks.ai (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BD144D; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:38:24 -0400 (AST) Message-ID: <39691B00.F3EF8F36@vangelderen.org> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 20:38:24 -0400 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Adam , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. References: <20000709120705.Q25571@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000709131350.S25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > * Adam [000709 12:36] wrote: > > > > Why did it exist from FreeBSD-WhoKnowsWhen until 1999? I'd like to use X > > via startx and not xdm too. I dont recall FreeBSD allowing X to start > > after securelevel is > 0 because it accesses /dev/mem. If it does now, > > I'll shut up. I tried searching the mail archives for discussions about > > why NO_LKM is bad but couldn't find anything. Could you help me find a > > discussion on it or tell me why disabling kernel modules is *not* > > security? Assuming I'd notice a reboot and would consequently whup some > > butt if someone did. > > If I had root and wasn't such a nice guy (*grin*) you wouldn't > know which way was up if I took the time to do so. But you don't and guys like you are obviously not in Adam's threat model. > Please properly secure your box. Please don't dicate other people what to do. Cheers, Jeroen -- Jeroen C. van Gelderen o _ _ _ jeroen@vangelderen.org _o /\_ _ \\o (_)\__/o (_) _< \_ _>(_) (_)/<_ \_| \ _|/' \/ (_)>(_) (_) (_) (_) (_)' _\o_ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 17:45:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from cypherpunks.ai (cypherpunks.ai [209.88.68.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF5A37BB1C for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 17:45:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeroen@vangelderen.org) Received: from vangelderen.org (grolsch.ai [209.88.68.214]) by cypherpunks.ai (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB26D4D; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:45:12 -0400 (AST) Message-ID: <39691C98.2C0DF9F7@vangelderen.org> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 20:45:12 -0400 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: Adam , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > > Why did it exist from FreeBSD-WhoKnowsWhen until 1999? I'd like to use X > > As I recall, this had something to do with shrinking the kernel for > PicoBSD, amongst other things. > > > why NO_LKM is bad but couldn't find anything. Could you help me find a > > discussion on it or tell me why disabling kernel modules is *not* > > security? Assuming I'd notice a reboot and would consequently whup some > > butt if someone did. > > Thing is; disabling kernel modules will avail you little, as an > illegitimate user can still use the memory devices to access physical > memory, and thus binary patch a live kernel. This is hard, but it can, and > has been done. Sure. But that may not be in one's threat model. Sure, a NO_KLD could be worked around in theory but maybe not in practice; Which means it can be very useful albeit maybe not for you. Cheers, Jeroen -- Jeroen C. van Gelderen o _ _ _ jeroen@vangelderen.org _o /\_ _ \\o (_)\__/o (_) _< \_ _>(_) (_)/<_ \_| \ _|/' \/ (_)>(_) (_) (_) (_) (_)' _\o_ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 18: 2:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0268B37C19D for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 18:02:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e6A12RQ10311; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 18:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 18:02:27 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" Cc: Marius Bendiksen , Adam , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. Message-ID: <20000709180227.W25571@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <39691C98.2C0DF9F7@vangelderen.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <39691C98.2C0DF9F7@vangelderen.org>; from jeroen@vangelderen.org on Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 08:45:12PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Jeroen C. van Gelderen [000709 17:45] wrote: > Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > > > > Why did it exist from FreeBSD-WhoKnowsWhen until 1999? I'd like to use X > > > > As I recall, this had something to do with shrinking the kernel for > > PicoBSD, amongst other things. > > > > > why NO_LKM is bad but couldn't find anything. Could you help me find a > > > discussion on it or tell me why disabling kernel modules is *not* > > > security? Assuming I'd notice a reboot and would consequently whup some > > > butt if someone did. > > > > Thing is; disabling kernel modules will avail you little, as an > > illegitimate user can still use the memory devices to access physical > > memory, and thus binary patch a live kernel. This is hard, but it can, and > > has been done. > > Sure. But that may not be in one's threat model. Sure, a > NO_KLD could be worked around in theory but maybe not in > practice; Which means it can be very useful albeit maybe > not for you. It's not very useful, the second some weenie posts his canned "load a kld on freebsd even with NO_KLD" 'sploit', it'll all be over in a most embarrasing way, all admins foolishly relying on such 'protection' will have to scramble to fix things properly. Here's it in a nutshell, it was less than trivial to get the snoop device loadable. Right now there is no 'NO_KLD' switch. Raise secure level or don't give out root. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 20:19:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-51.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2B4237BC27 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:19:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01377; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:27:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200007100327.UAA01377@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Adam Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 09 Jul 2000 09:26:20 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 20:27:27 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > There are alot of people who have root that couldn't craft such a kernel > module if they wanted to, and even if they could, I'd venture to say > they'd need a whole bunch of motivation and a considerable amount of > time. This is "security through obscurity", and completely fails to take into account what the industry likes to call "script kiddies" and "rootkits". Basically, this isn't a valid argument against making the snoop module loadable. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 20:27:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-51.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48BA337C3DA for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:27:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01434; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:35:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200007100335.UAA01434@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Adam Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 09 Jul 2000 13:45:42 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 20:35:23 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think you missed my point. I'm not talking about hackers at all; if a > hacker can load a module the game is already over. I'm talking about > legit people with root who might do things behind the back of the person > who compiled the kernel without snp in the first place. I think you might want to start worrying about things like "rm" in this case, rather than something relatively trivial like the snoop device. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 21: 6:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5E4637C5FC for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 21:06:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA03159 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:06:22 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:06:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: <200007100335.UAA01434@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ok I'm going to try to save some people some work from replying here. I dont care anymore and you dont have to convince me I was wrong, because I was. Thank you, good night. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 9 21:55:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7968837C49E; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 21:55:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from green@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:55:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Fundakowski Feldman X-Sender: green@green.dyndns.org To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Marius Bendiksen , Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alterations to vops In-Reply-To: <200007092334.QAA12313@apollo.backplane.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Matthew Dillon wrote: > > : > :I'm still missing something. Why does a process that isn't doing anything > :on the filesystem still freezing? My disks are DMA, so there shouldn't be > :any tim ethat the kernel is busy-waiting for a seek, right? You explained > :why the I/O from one process can totally destroy the I/O bandwidth of the > :other, thank you :), but I don't see how that relates to the other part > :of this problem. > : > :-- > : Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / > > It *is* doing something w/ the filesystem. If you are talking about > vi, which was your earlier message, the first time you go into > an edit mode vi creates a spill file. I'm more referring to the emulators freezing here. > -Matt > Matthew Dillon > -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 0: 8:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B1D37B76C; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:08:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA73055; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:08:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Marius Bendiksen , Adam , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. References: <20000709165702.V25571@fw.wintelcom.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Jul 2000 09:08:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: Alfred Perlstein's message of "Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:57:03 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [moving from -arch to -chat] Alfred Perlstein writes: > * Marius Bendiksen [000709 16:54] wrote: > > Thing is; disabling kernel modules will avail you little, as an > > illegitimate user can still use the memory devices to access physical > > memory, and thus binary patch a live kernel. This is hard, but it can, and > > has been done. Eivind mentioned one particular case with a person who > > binary-patched the kernel of an old Unix to bypass the 14 character file > > name length limitation without severing the uptime. > I owe that person a beer. He's a committer (tegge@freebsd.org). The OS in question, IIRC, was DolphinOS on an ND UniLine 8820 (colloquially known as Flipper). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 1: 2:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from netplex.com.au (adsl-63-207-30-186.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.207.30.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF6B537B623; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:02:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Received: from netplex.com.au (peter@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netplex.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA08058; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:02:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Message-Id: <200007100802.BAA08058@netplex.com.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: John Baldwin Cc: Adam , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: Message from John Baldwin of "Sun, 09 Jul 2000 13:24:56 PDT." <200007092024.NAA81999@john.baldwin.cx> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:02:11 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin wrote: > > On 09-Jul-00 Adam wrote: > > On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > >>In message , A dam > >>writes: > >>>On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>>>If this change goes in, what do you do if you wish not to have snooping > >>>>>capable through the snp device and do not wish to lock unneccessary part s > >>>>>of the system down with securelevel? > >>>> > >>>>You do the same as before: Hold on tight to your root password. > >>> > >>>I dont like kernel changes that make the kernel do less babysitting and me > >>>more. Tough, I guess. > >> > >>You have always needed to babysit your root password. > > > > Ok, I give in to the argument. I would just like to make a wish. On Jan > > 24 1999 peter took the NO_LKM option out of LINT. I assume the support > > for it in other files was removed around that time also. Could someone > > implement a NO_KLD option so you dont need to use securelevel > 0 so > > people have an obvious option and dont have to know the kernel well enough > > to hack syscalls.master? > > Patches accepted. :) Seriously, if you come up with a patchset > I'll look at it and see about getting it in the tree. NO_LKM was different. The LKM subsystem was always an "add-on" system. NO_LKM got changed to 'options LKM' which meant you had to choose to activate it. Once LKM became obsolete, it went away entirely. KLD however is built into the very core of the system. Most of the kernel subsystems are standalone KLD modules linked into a single file and use the module registration system to activate themselves. You cannot just remove it. At best, you could prevent kldload() from working. However, that does not stop loader(8) preloading the files, which completely bypasses the kldload(2) syscall. Just add 'load /hack/myfile.ko' >> /boot/loader.conf and you are set. Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 1:23:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail3.hushmail.com (mail3.hushmail.com [216.18.8.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F15237BD60; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:23:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from core-ix@hushmail.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by mail3.hushmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA07998; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:23:15 -0700 From: core-ix@hushmail.com Message-Id: <200007100823.BAA07998@mail3.hushmail.com> Date: Ïò, 10 VII 1999 11:20:15 +0200 (EEDT) Subject: Some proposals to FreeBSD kernel To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="1099677344.963217395254.JavaMail.root@mail3.hushmail.com" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --1099677344.963217395254.JavaMail.root@mail3.hushmail.com Content-Type: text/plain Hello I'm 18-year-old newbie UNIX programmer that currently use FreeBSD and is really thankfull of it.I run it on DUAL PII/333. Some days ago my friend tell me that with simple user rights and whit only 1 line of code he could crash my machine. I laught but he did it :(. What he wrote was ' int main(void) {while(1) fork(); }' compiled it and run it. Within a second /kernel said "proc: table is full" and died. I tried this on some other BSD unixes and the result was same. (BTW Minix 2.0 seem unaffected and probably other SVR4 variants, because you can limit the number of system processes and system still have resources to work fine(although slow)) With sysctl() I found that my system can work with up to 532 procs simulanteously, but didnt found where this value is set in the src/ or probably where it is computed. So I sit down and wrote a static library that introduse a new fork() (nfork()) and _exit() (nexit()) whose only purpose is to lower the effect ot fast fork()s by sleeping accordingly to the number of times fork() was called.I tend to make some more things with that piece of code (in the attachment) and probably to add it to the kenel src but for now it is easier to use it as a library. Any suggestions about tarball included are welcome. Looking forward to hearing from you. Thanks for reading my letter Ix P.S. Please excuse my amateur code (I'm only 18-year-old :) ) And the file attached is named sys2-src.tar.gz but my mail have some problems with that names so it may apear as sys2-src.tar.gz.gz IMPORTANT NOTICE: If you are not using HushMail, this message could have been read easily by the many people who have access to your open personal email messages. Get your FREE, totally secure email address at http://www.hushmail.com. --1099677344.963217395254.JavaMail.root@mail3.hushmail.com Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name=sys2-src.tar.gz.gz Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=sys2-src.tar.gz.gz H4sICBN8aTkCA3N5czItc3JjLnRhcgDtl1FP2zAQx/M6f4qTxkMCC42bJpHomDbKYJ06mMrDHlGW utQidao4paBp331nNykBaZomjYKm+0lVL/+zfU7d/6XVd7rr6zLrOE8H9IIkisAB4EnE2+8NAUDC wy5POA8STAcJDxyInC2w1FVaAjjypvjDOFFq579DN+f/Jb0WU5mLJ6jBgyDu9X5//lEc1ucf8yTu YrrbCxMHAjr/J2cwgEPIMjY4GX04vcDY/5bmOTA2Gh5dXoxN1n5FxO1+ZrXzo88trbDap+NxS5tZ 7WQ4+ohiLr83emp0WyKfgz/ax/c6xYZnA5sY7jP2dXx+2lRepCvl67xYYXGjP9AYw50eAHv1fscd DDzYcc0yHvgZhvX2Pczi8ZaNZHbl1THeiUmXqcJNtvOtFZvN4KpFfXlfyE658BjLcpGqA7MW3ti0 tfyjqnY6e5n+35zy9v0fcr7p/0HSs/7vcfL/NngtVZYvJwLebuz7jrG8UFcgVQUZvg4h6DNmrtS0 KK9dj/1gAJ1dwE+ukhnYwc1A2O1gcqlzIRauu1RaXikxMWt5i2LlutO8SCsvfgN1hPM8r49TMNjb M0EpqmWpYF2qz37WpcWtrOrSONT3zdBLKwZ2lEP8E//PnsH/YdQ8/6MgTKz/o5j8v3X/d6q7hdCm A9zLSyV1NXmoGVOn+SOtmsjioTRPq5ltJ9grzsSqtjTI+SIXc6FM9yis0SG9KeREYhvBTVRiDlmZ 6pnQppm0+k6/WWjte89OrWaiyW+Gr9N96gl/4//Wb60t+x+Sxv9RnHCMMQwj8v/zPf+Ni+apVK7x 5fqhu5rhn0OXe/dmpGcuQRAEQRAEQRAEQRAEQRAEQbxQfgHAdDOaACgAAA== --1099677344.963217395254.JavaMail.root@mail3.hushmail.com-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 1:44:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from snafu.adept.org (adsl-63-201-63-44.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.201.63.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97B2837C474; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:44:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@adept.org) Received: by snafu.adept.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 098CC9EE01; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by snafu.adept.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 025CA9B001; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:44:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:44:15 -0700 (PDT) From: BSD Biggot To: core-ix@hushmail.com Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some proposals to FreeBSD kernel In-Reply-To: <200007100823.BAA07998@mail3.hushmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 10 xxx -1 core-ix@hushmail.com wrote: > What he wrote was ' int main(void) {while(1) fork(); }' compiled it > and run it. Within a second /kernel said "proc: table is full" and > died. I tried this on some other BSD unixes and the result was > same. A fork() bomb... Resource exhaustion. Old news. > (BTW Minix 2.0 seem unaffected and probably other SVR4 > variants, because you can limit the number of system processes > and system still have resources to work fine(although slow)) I've done this on SunOS. As for limiting processes, I'd tweak the appropriate knobs in login.conf(5). If you're worried about root doing something similar without such restrictions... Well, you've got other things to worry about if someone already has root access to your machine. -mrh To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 1:59:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.netcologne.de (mail2.netcologne.de [194.8.194.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D3F037C51C; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:59:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pherman@frenchfries.net) Received: from bagabeedaboo.security.at12.de (dial-195-14-254-153.netcologne.de [195.14.254.153]) by mail2.netcologne.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29148; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:59:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (localhost.security.at12.de [127.0.0.1]) by bagabeedaboo.security.at12.de (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id e6A8x2o53348; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:59:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:59:01 +0200 (CEST) From: Paul Herman To: core-ix@hushmail.com Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some proposals to FreeBSD kernel In-Reply-To: <200007100823.BAA07998@mail3.hushmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 10 xxx -1 core-ix@hushmail.com wrote: > Some days ago my friend tell me that with simple user rights > and whit only 1 line of code he could crash my machine. I laught > but he did it :(. > > What he wrote was ' int main(void) {while(1) fork(); }' compiled it > and run it. Within a second /kernel said "proc: table is full" and > died. This DoS is probably as old as you are. :) Setting proper limits on your system, like "maxproc" and "stacksize" et al. in /etc/login.conf will clamp down on this. "Security for a server also means protection against itself." > So I sit down and wrote a static library that introduse a new fork() > (nfork()) and _exit() (nexit()) whose only purpose is to lower the > effect ot fast fork()s by sleeping accordingly to the number of times > fork() was called. Your code is always welcome here, :) however most people here will just tell you what I've just told you. Perhaps a discussion of something like FORK_RATELIMIT along the lines of ICMP_BANDLIM is in order? After an adjustable threshold forks slowly start slowing down, rather than coughing up a "Resource temporarily unavailable"? -Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 2: 7:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ywing.creative.net.au (ywing.creative.net.au [203.56.168.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A67637BD51; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 02:07:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@ywing.creative.net.au) Received: (from adrian@localhost) by ywing.creative.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03025; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 11:13:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from adrian) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 11:13:41 +0200 From: Adrian Chadd To: Paul Herman Cc: core-ix@hushmail.com, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some proposals to FreeBSD kernel Message-ID: <20000710111340.C837@ywing.creative.net.au> References: <200007100823.BAA07998@mail3.hushmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from pherman@frenchfries.net on Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 10:59:01AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jul 10, 2000, Paul Herman wrote: > On 10 xxx -1 core-ix@hushmail.com wrote: > > > Some days ago my friend tell me that with simple user rights > > and whit only 1 line of code he could crash my machine. I laught > > but he did it :(. > > > > What he wrote was ' int main(void) {while(1) fork(); }' compiled it > > and run it. Within a second /kernel said "proc: table is full" and > > died. > > This DoS is probably as old as you are. :) Setting proper limits on > your system, like "maxproc" and "stacksize" et al. in /etc/login.conf > will clamp down on this. > > "Security for a server also means protection against itself." > > > So I sit down and wrote a static library that introduse a new fork() > > (nfork()) and _exit() (nexit()) whose only purpose is to lower the > > effect ot fast fork()s by sleeping accordingly to the number of times > > fork() was called. > > Your code is always welcome here, :) however most people here will > just tell you what I've just told you. > > Perhaps a discussion of something like FORK_RATELIMIT along the lines > of ICMP_BANDLIM is in order? After an adjustable threshold forks > slowly start slowing down, rather than coughing up a "Resource > temporarily unavailable"? why would you do that? If something wants to fork, let it fork. When it hits the upper limit defined your resource limitations, it returns an error. Having it slow down before erroring out and then providing the tweaks to make this controllable sounds to me like too much added complexity for no real gain. Remember, resource limits are your friend. ;-) Adrian -- Adrian Chadd Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 3:40: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mimer.webgiro.com (mimer.webgiro.com [212.209.29.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A1C37C5E5 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:40:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by mimer.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id 0B0FE2DC0B; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:45:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8D0E97817; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:36:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8831D10E17; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:36:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:36:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > Why did it exist from FreeBSD-WhoKnowsWhen until 1999? I'd like to use X > > As I recall, this had something to do with shrinking the kernel for > PicoBSD, amongst other things. Correct. However, now LKMs are gone, and KLD stuff is (I think) mandatory. Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 3:51:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBDF437B555 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:51:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id DAA92923; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:51:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:51:27 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: papowell@astart.com Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Message-ID: <20000710035127.B92445@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200007100023.RAA21882@h4.private> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200007100023.RAA21882@h4.private>; from papowell@astart.com on Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 05:23:02PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 05:23:02PM -0700, papowell@astart.com wrote: > OK, now what about the fact that LPRng uses (by default) GNU Make? Not an issue. If LPRng were imported into src/contib/, there would be BSD make Makefiles that we create in /usr/src/usr.bin/..... -- -- David (who has claimed he can bmake anything, *but* Perl) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 3:53:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B76DC37B555 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:53:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id DAA92942; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:53:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:53:52 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: papowell@astart.com Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Message-ID: <20000710035352.C92445@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200007092102.OAA21518@h4.private> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200007092102.OAA21518@h4.private>; from papowell@astart.com on Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 02:02:16PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 02:02:16PM -0700, papowell@astart.com wrote: > Let me try to state this as clearly as possible: > If the FreeBSD project wants to distribute LPRng under the BSD > license, then I will give them a license to distribute it under > the BSD license terms. I would add the following two provisions > in addition to standard BSD License terms: This change is absolutely great! I am now in total support of the change from the traditional LPR system to LPRng. The benefits of a much more capable printing system out weigh the compatibility issues. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 4: 2: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB74637B77F; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 04:02:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21665; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:01:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:53:52 PDT." <20000710035352.C92445@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:01:48 +0200 Message-ID: <21663.963226908@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000710035352.C92445@dragon.nuxi.com>, "David O'Brien" writes: >On Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 02:02:16PM -0700, papowell@astart.com wrote: >> Let me try to state this as clearly as possible: >> If the FreeBSD project wants to distribute LPRng under the BSD >> license, then I will give them a license to distribute it under >> the BSD license terms. I would add the following two provisions >> in addition to standard BSD License terms: > >This change is absolutely great! > >I am now in total support of the change from the traditional LPR system >to LPRng. The benefits of a much more capable printing system out weigh >the compatibility issues. vote.yes++; -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 4:22:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.2.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486FE37B527; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 04:22:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13Bbdg-0000Cm-00; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:22:16 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:51:27 MST." <20000710035127.B92445@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:22:16 +0200 Message-ID: <791.963228136@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:51:27 MST, "David O'Brien" wrote: > Not an issue. > If LPRng were imported into src/contib/, there would be BSD make > Makefiles that we create in /usr/src/usr.bin/..... Do you have ideas on how to handle the optional features of the package, such as mysql support? The author listed a few features which would rely on packages in the ports tree. This was the reason I felt that LPRng is better suited to being provided as a port. Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 4:49:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au (mailman.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA6137B51A; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 04:49:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bde@zeta.org.au) Received: from bde.zeta.org.au (bde.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.102]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15660; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:48:59 +1000 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:48:54 +1000 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-Sender: bde@besplex.bde.org To: Peter Wemm Cc: John Baldwin , Adam , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. In-Reply-To: <200007100802.BAA08058@netplex.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Peter Wemm wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: > > > > On 09-Jul-00 Adam wrote: > > > Ok, I give in to the argument. I would just like to make a wish. On Jan > > > 24 1999 peter took the NO_LKM option out of LINT. I assume the support > > > for it in other files was removed around that time also. Could someone > > > implement a NO_KLD option so you dont need to use securelevel > 0 so > > > people have an obvious option and dont have to know the kernel well enough > > > to hack syscalls.master? > > > > Patches accepted. :) Seriously, if you come up with a patchset > > I'll look at it and see about getting it in the tree. > > NO_LKM was different. The LKM subsystem was always an "add-on" system. No, it was essentially the same. The LKM subsystem was originally standard. dima@freebsd.org added the NO_LKM option in rev.1.48 of kern_lkm.c for security reasons, after the discussion that we're recycling reached opposite conclusions last time. NO_LKM just removed the initializer for the LKM subsystem. There were linkage issues that made it inconvenient to remove the entire subsystem. > NO_LKM got changed to 'options LKM' which meant you had to choose to > activate it. Once LKM became obsolete, it went away entirely. The change from NO_LKM to !LKM fixed the linkage issues so that LKM could go away completely. Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 6:46:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AA5C37BAD8 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 06:46:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p18-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.147]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id WAA03873; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:45:38 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3969CBB1.2E3C793C@newsguy.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:12:17 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Henderson Cc: papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Darren Henderson wrote: > > They have to retain the copyright info in the source so the information is > there. > > The package is in ports and it doesn't seem anyone is advocating that it > be removed. If it is to be in the primary distribution then it should have > the same, not the same with a proviso, license, if at all possible. If it > can not have the same license then there needs to be some hugely overiding > need to bring in into the core. That doesn't seem to be the case. The package in the ports is licensed under Artistic/GPL. The BSD + keep copyright available on-demand is a much less restrictive license. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@the.great.underground.bsdconpiracy.org _DES: The Book of Bruce has only one sentence in it, and it says "the actual directives of my cult are left as an exercise for the reader. Good luck." jkh: does it really include the 'good luck' part? EE: OK, I made that part up. EE: I figured it should sound a bit more cheery than how Bruce initially dictated it to me. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 7:57:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E462E37B67F for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 07:57:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA195794; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:57:12 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3969CBB1.2E3C793C@newsguy.com> References: <3969CBB1.2E3C793C@newsguy.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:58:05 -0400 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Darren Henderson From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Cc: papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:12 PM +0900 7/10/00, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >Darren Henderson wrote: > > > > They have to retain the copyright info in the source so the > > information is there. > > > > The package is in ports and it doesn't seem anyone is advocating > > that it be removed. If it is to be in the primary distribution > > then it should have the same, not the same with a proviso, license, > > if at all possible. If it can not have the same license then there > > needs to be some hugely need to bring in into the core. That doesn't > > seem to be the case. > >The package in the ports is licensed under Artistic/GPL. The BSD + keep >copyright available on-demand is a much less restrictive license. So, the assumption is that FreeBSD will only be allowed to use the BSD license if it removes the current version of lpr and changes lprNG from a port to an integral part of the distributed system? --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 8: 1:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dan.emsphone.com (dan.emsphone.com [199.67.51.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC0437B816; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:01:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by dan.emsphone.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA22081; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:01:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dan) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:01:07 -0500 From: Dan Nelson To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Message-ID: <20000710100107.A21595@dan.emsphone.com> References: <20000710035127.B92445@dragon.nuxi.com> <791.963228136@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.5i In-Reply-To: <791.963228136@axl.ops.uunet.co.za>; from "Sheldon Hearn" on Mon Jul 10 13:22:16 GMT 2000 X-OS: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In the last episode (Jul 10), Sheldon Hearn said: > On Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:51:27 MST, "David O'Brien" wrote: > > Not an issue. If LPRng were imported into src/contib/, there would > > be BSD make Makefiles that we create in /usr/src/usr.bin/..... > > Do you have ideas on how to handle the optional features of the > package, such as mysql support? The author listed a few features > which would rely on packages in the ports tree. This was the reason > I felt that LPRng is better suited to being provided as a port. There's no reason to remove the port; it'll be just like the gcc port, which includes languages not installed into the base OS (java & objc). -- Dan Nelson dnelson@emsphone.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 8:11:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72AB937BCFA; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:11:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p29-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.158]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id AAA08199; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:11:11 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3969E689.1B96700E@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:06:49 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Herman Cc: core-ix@hushmail.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some proposals to FreeBSD kernel References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Please, this is not a topic for arch. While I appreciate the author's intent, it is indeed "old news", well known and for which we have a specific set of solutions. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@the.great.underground.bsdconpiracy.org _DES: The Book of Bruce has only one sentence in it, and it says "the actual directives of my cult are left as an exercise for the reader. Good luck." jkh: does it really include the 'good luck' part? EE: OK, I made that part up. EE: I figured it should sound a bit more cheery than how Bruce initially dictated it to me. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 8:16:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A15337B7F9; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:16:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo [192.67.166.79]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA28085; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:15:28 -0700 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:15:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Paul Herman Cc: core-ix@hushmail.com, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some proposals to FreeBSD kernel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > This DoS is probably as old as you are. :) Setting proper limits on Older. I did this back in the spring of 1977 at Reed College (v6/PWB)- after beating me up for crashing the system, they gave me superuser privileges so that if I did something like it again *I* could then spend the two hours running icheck/dcheck. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 8:24:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B2C37B653 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:24:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p29-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.158]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id AAA12774; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:24:08 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3969EAB6.680648FE@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:24:38 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Darren Henderson , papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues References: <3969CBB1.2E3C793C@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Garance A Drosihn wrote: > > >The package in the ports is licensed under Artistic/GPL. The BSD + keep > >copyright available on-demand is a much less restrictive license. > > So, the assumption is that FreeBSD will only be allowed to use the > BSD license if it removes the current version of lpr and changes > lprNG from a port to an integral part of the distributed system? No, that's not the assumption. I'm just countering your argument that the version imported would be _less_ "free" or "flexible" or something than the version in the ports. The fact is that LPRng will only be licensed under BSD with the additional clauses that garantee one can clearly identify it as being XYZZY LPRng, instead of the original LPRng, so that the author can clearly identify whether he is dealing with an original or a modified version, and to prevent LPRng's reputation from being tarnished by faulty versions modified by third party being claimed to have security holes or bugs or something. I hope this clear your doubts. The proposed license is a perfectly acceptable one which does not add any burdens to business using and selling products with LPRng (or anyone else, for that matter). Let's all steer clear of the topic-mentioned "license issues", since there are none, and discuss the replacement on technical merits. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@the.great.underground.bsdconpiracy.org _DES: The Book of Bruce has only one sentence in it, and it says "the actual directives of my cult are left as an exercise for the reader. Good luck." jkh: does it really include the 'good luck' part? EE: OK, I made that part up. EE: I figured it should sound a bit more cheery than how Bruce initially dictated it to me. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 8:46:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5ECF37BA16; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:46:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21783; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:46:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28239; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:46:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:46:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200007101546.JAA28239@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-Reply-To: <21663.963226908@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <20000710035352.C92445@dragon.nuxi.com> <21663.963226908@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> Let me try to state this as clearly as possible: > >> If the FreeBSD project wants to distribute LPRng under the BSD > >> license, then I will give them a license to distribute it under > >> the BSD license terms. I would add the following two provisions > >> in addition to standard BSD License terms: > > > >This change is absolutely great! > > > >I am now in total support of the change from the traditional LPR system > >to LPRng. The benefits of a much more capable printing system out weigh > >the compatibility issues. > > vote.yes++; *IFF* LPRng uses a 3-line BSD license, then I withdraw my objection to it being in the base system. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 9:18:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14CB337BE80 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:18:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA819456; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:18:24 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3969EAB6.680648FE@newsguy.com> References: <3969CBB1.2E3C793C@newsguy.com> <3969EAB6.680648FE@newsguy.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:19:14 -0400 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Cc: papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:24 AM +0900 7/11/00, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >Garance A Drosihn wrote: > > > > >The package in the ports is licensed under Artistic/GPL. The BSD + keep > > >copyright available on-demand is a much less restrictive license. > > > > So, the assumption is that FreeBSD will only be allowed to use the > > BSD license if it removes the current version of lpr and changes > > lprNG from a port to an integral part of the distributed system? > >No, that's not the assumption. I'm just countering your argument that >the version imported would be _less_ "free" or "flexible" or something >than the version in the ports. Just as an aside, I think we're a bit out-of-sync here. I have not made any assertions about lprNG being free or flexible (or not-free or not-flexible). About all I've said recently in this discussion was that I wanted someone to clarify the licensing issues that BSD/OS had for lprNG, and what that implies for licensing under freebsd. In the message you replied to, I was again just asking for a better understanding of the licensing. Your comment (the part I quoted), states that the 'package in ports' is (and thus always will be) under Artistic/GPL license. I was just underlining that statement, to see if the implication of "always will be" is true. Ie, is it true that FreeBSD will NOT get a BSD+keep-copyright license for lprNG if we leave lprNG as a port? That is just a question. It is not an argument. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 10:50:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44CC337BEF2 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:50:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA25684; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:50:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:50:20 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Nate Williams Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Message-ID: <20000710105019.A25631@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000710035352.C92445@dragon.nuxi.com> <21663.963226908@critter.freebsd.dk> <200007101546.JAA28239@nomad.yogotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200007101546.JAA28239@nomad.yogotech.com>; from nate@yogotech.com on Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 09:46:22AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 09:46:22AM -0600, Nate Williams wrote: > > >> Let me try to state this as clearly as possible: > > >> If the FreeBSD project wants to distribute LPRng under the BSD > > >> license, then I will give them a license to distribute it under > > >> the BSD license terms. I would add the following two provisions > > >> in addition to standard BSD License terms: > > *IFF* LPRng uses a 3-line BSD license, then I withdraw my objection to > it being in the base system. Why do you have problems with a BSD-style license with the stipulation that derived versions are marked as such? -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 12:19:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from grimreaper.grondar.za (grimreaper.grondar.za [196.7.18.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E58D437BAE3 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:18:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grimreaper.grondar.za (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA67259; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:15:23 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200007101915.VAA67259@grimreaper.grondar.za> Cc: papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues References: <21663.963226908@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <21663.963226908@critter.freebsd.dk> ; from Poul-Henning Kamp "Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:01:48 +0200." Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:15:23 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >I am now in total support of the change from the traditional LPR system > >to LPRng. The benefits of a much more capable printing system out weigh > >the compatibility issues. > > vote.yes++; vote.yes++; M -- Mark Murray Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 13:37:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from peace.mahoroba.org (peace.calm.imasy.or.jp [202.227.26.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F3237B509; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:37:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ume@mahoroba.org) Received: from localhost (IDENT:GAX80jKL72Si7lTdk4IsrcIedz85C5WKlR5yKyH//O6RiR51J1esdTZ8O2zTdEOx@localhost.mahoroba.org [::1]) (authenticated) by peace.mahoroba.org (8.10.2/3.7W-peace) with ESMTP id e6AKb2h05055; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 05:37:02 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from ume@mahoroba.org) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 05:36:59 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20000711.053659.63132398.ume@mahoroba.org> To: kris@FreeBSD.org Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IPv6 startup (Re: cvs commit: src/etc rc.network6) From: Hajimu UMEMOTO In-Reply-To: References: <200007092012.NAA79176@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: xcite1.20> Mew version 1.95b38 on Emacs 20.6 / Mule 4.0 =?iso-2022-jp?B?KBskQjJWMWMbKEIp?= X-PGP-Public-Key: http://www.imasy.org/~ume/publickey.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 0C 53 FC 5D D0 37 91 05 D0 B3 EF 36 9B 6A BC X-URL: http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ X-OS: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> On Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:18:50 -0700 (PDT) >>>>> Kris Kennaway said: kris> On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Hajimu UMEMOTO wrote: > ume 2000/07/09 13:12:50 PDT > > Modified files: > etc rc.network6 > Log: > - Remove use of programs in /usr like sed as possible. In this > time, I have no idea if there is equivalence of printf. So, stf > setup still depends on /usr. In addition, prefix(8) and gifconfig(8) > are in /usr/sbin. Should we move these into /sbin? kris> I think we should. They would be needed if one wanted to use ipv6 or an kris> ipv6-in-4 tunnel during the boot process, right? Yes. There is alternative for prefix(8). prefix(8) is somewhat convinience command. If prefixcmd_enable="NO" is defined in rc.conf, prefix command is not used to assign router prefix. However, there is no alternative for gifconfig(8). Though, I usually see NetBSD-current as reference, gifconfig(8) still sits in /usr/sbin. I don't know why. kris> Should we move setkey(8) as well, in case one wanted to do kris> e.g. NFS-over-IPSEC mounts? I think it is necessary. NetBSD-current have setkey(8) in /sbin already. -- Hajimu UMEMOTO @ Internet Mutual Aid Society Yokohama, Japan ume@mahoroba.org ume@bisd.hitachi.co.jp ume@FreeBSD.org http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 15: 6: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E57C37B645 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:05:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e6AM5uU12624 for arch@freebsd.org; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:05:56 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: kernel printf %i? Message-ID: <20000710150556.I25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG any objections: Index: subr_prf.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/kern/subr_prf.c,v retrieving revision 1.62 diff -u -u -r1.62 subr_prf.c --- subr_prf.c 2000/04/29 11:32:15 1.62 +++ subr_prf.c 2000/07/10 22:06:55 @@ -589,6 +589,7 @@ } break; case 'd': + case 'i': if (qflag) uq = va_arg(ap, quad_t); else if (lflag) ? -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 17:17:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B88537B614; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:17:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from green@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:17:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Fundakowski Feldman X-Sender: green@green.dyndns.org To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? In-Reply-To: <20000710150556.I25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > any objections: Can you give me a good reason for it? To act like the libc printf() isn't a good reason, I mean do you think it will actually help anyone in ways that %d doesn't? Are you noticing tons of submissions of kernel code that have %i and don't work correctly or something? I just don't get it :-/ > -- > -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] > "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 17:35:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3394C37B7C4; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:35:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e6B0Zrw16321; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:35:53 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Brian Fundakowski Feldman Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? Message-ID: <20000710173553.J25571@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000710150556.I25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from green@FreeBSD.org on Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 08:17:11PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Brian Fundakowski Feldman [000710 17:17] wrote: > On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > any objections: > > Can you give me a good reason for it? To act like the libc printf() isn't > a good reason, I mean do you think it will actually help anyone in ways > that %d doesn't? Are you noticing tons of submissions of kernel code that > have %i and don't work correctly or something? > > I just don't get it :-/ I was annoyed when I used %i and it didn't work. POLA. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 17:49:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-51.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37B7037BAD5 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:49:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08039; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:57:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200007110057.RAA08039@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:35:53 PDT." <20000710173553.J25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:57:27 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > * Brian Fundakowski Feldman [000710 17:17] wrote: > > On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > > any objections: > > > > Can you give me a good reason for it? To act like the libc printf() isn't > > a good reason, I mean do you think it will actually help anyone in ways > > that %d doesn't? Are you noticing tons of submissions of kernel code that > > have %i and don't work correctly or something? > > > > I just don't get it :-/ > > I was annoyed when I used %i and it didn't work. POLA. Can I have %Z? It should take an integer argument, and print that many 'fnord's. Thankyou. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 17:52:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0B537B985; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:52:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from semuta.feral.com (semuta [192.67.166.70]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA30541; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:52:51 -0700 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:50:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Brian Fundakowski Feldman , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? In-Reply-To: <20000710173553.J25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I was annoyed when I used %i and it didn't work. POLA. I never, ever, would write kernel code that uses %i. It's very non-portable. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 18: 2:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5066937B985; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:02:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA22035; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:02:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:02:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: "David O'Brien" Cc: Nate Williams , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-Reply-To: <20000710105019.A25631@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, David O'Brien wrote: > On Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 09:46:22AM -0600, Nate Williams wrote: > > > >> Let me try to state this as clearly as possible: > > > >> If the FreeBSD project wants to distribute LPRng under the BSD > > > >> license, then I will give them a license to distribute it under > > > >> the BSD license terms. I would add the following two provisions > > > >> in addition to standard BSD License terms: > > > > *IFF* LPRng uses a 3-line BSD license, then I withdraw my objection to > > it being in the base system. > > Why do you have problems with a BSD-style license with the stipulation > that derived versions are marked as such? He didn't say that. I *appears* to me that he requires that each and every change in the sources be distinctly added to the -V message. I guess that means all cvs history in any of the LPRng sources must be listed. Look, it sounds stupid, but *I* didn't say it, he did. Don't blame me for it. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 18:15:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5355B37BA6B; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:15:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e6B1FX917244; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:15:33 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Mike Smith Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? Message-ID: <20000710181533.K25571@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000710173553.J25571@fw.wintelcom.net> <200007110057.RAA08039@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200007110057.RAA08039@mass.osd.bsdi.com>; from msmith@FreeBSD.org on Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 05:57:27PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Mike Smith [000710 17:49] wrote: > > * Brian Fundakowski Feldman [000710 17:17] wrote: > > > On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > > > > any objections: > > > > > > Can you give me a good reason for it? To act like the libc printf() isn't > > > a good reason, I mean do you think it will actually help anyone in ways > > > that %d doesn't? Are you noticing tons of submissions of kernel code that > > > have %i and don't work correctly or something? > > > > > > I just don't get it :-/ > > > > I was annoyed when I used %i and it didn't work. POLA. > > Can I have %Z? It should take an integer argument, and print that many > 'fnord's. Thankyou. Sure, do you want it as a seperate commit or can I bundle it with the 'i' addition? :) Basically what I'm getting is that %i isn't portable over to other systems? In that case I guess it's not needed, I just expected %i to work as it does in libc. But if you need that %Z hack, I can have a delta ready for you to review in a couple of minutes. let me know, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 18:42:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8133B37BA90; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:42:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA22395; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:12:02 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:12:02 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Mike Smith , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? Message-ID: <20000711111202.B22283@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20000710173553.J25571@fw.wintelcom.net> <200007110057.RAA08039@mass.osd.bsdi.com> <20000710181533.K25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000710181533.K25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday, 10 July 2000 at 18:15:33 -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Mike Smith [000710 17:49] wrote: >>> * Brian Fundakowski Feldman [000710 17:17] wrote: >>>> On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >>>> >>>>> any objections: >>>> >>>> Can you give me a good reason for it? To act like the libc printf() isn't >>>> a good reason, I mean do you think it will actually help anyone in ways >>>> that %d doesn't? Are you noticing tons of submissions of kernel code that >>>> have %i and don't work correctly or something? >>>> >>>> I just don't get it :-/ >>> >>> I was annoyed when I used %i and it didn't work. POLA. >> >> Can I have %Z? It should take an integer argument, and print that many >> 'fnord's. Thankyou. > > Sure, do you want it as a seperate commit or can I bundle it with the > 'i' addition? :) > > Basically what I'm getting is that %i isn't portable over to other > systems? Are there other systems that have %i in the kernel? I tend to agree that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". It's not exactly new functionality, so about the best it can do is to obfuscate. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 20: 4:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from assaris.sics.se (assaris.sics.se [193.10.66.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 967A237B55B; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:04:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from assar@assaris.sics.se) Received: (from assar@localhost) by assaris.sics.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA22213; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 05:04:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from assar) To: Brian Fundakowski Feldman Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? References: From: Assar Westerlund Date: 11 Jul 2000 05:04:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brian Fundakowski Feldman's message of "Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:17:11 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: <5lzonpbc53.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070098 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.98) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Fundakowski Feldman writes: > Can you give me a good reason for it? Consistency with other printf's (ISO/ANSI and {Open,Net}BSD). Go for it, Alfred. /assar To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 10 23:59:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F29C37B605 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:59:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id XAA29984; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:59:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:59:01 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Chuck Robey Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Message-ID: <20000710235901.C26861@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000710105019.A25631@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from chuckr@picnic.mat.net on Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 09:02:27PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 09:02:27PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > > >> Let me try to state this as clearly as possible: > > > > >> If the FreeBSD project wants to distribute LPRng under the BSD > > > > >> license, then I will give them a license to distribute it under > > > > >> the BSD license terms. I would add the following two provisions > > > > >> in addition to standard BSD License terms: > > > > > > *IFF* LPRng uses a 3-line BSD license, then I withdraw my objection to > > > it being in the base system. > > > > Why do you have problems with a BSD-style license with the stipulation > > that derived versions are marked as such? > > He didn't say that. Which "he"? If you mean the LPRng author, that is how I read his email. How did you read it?? > I *appears* to me that he requires that each and every change in the > sources be distinctly added to the -V message. Can you please quote me from the LPRng's author's email where he either said or implied that? In his examples, simply adding "FreeBSD specific version" or something like that is all that is required. > I guess that means all cvs history in any of the LPRng sources must be > listed. > Look, it sounds stupid, but *I* didn't say it, he did. Don't blame me > for it. Please quote me where. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 1:21:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.2.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5134537B887; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:21:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13BvHy-000EqS-00; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:21:10 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Assar Westerlund Cc: Brian Fundakowski Feldman , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? In-reply-to: Your message of "11 Jul 2000 05:04:40 +0200." <5lzonpbc53.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:21:10 +0200 Message-ID: <57067.963303670@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 11 Jul 2000 05:04:40 +0200, Assar Westerlund wrote: > Consistency with other printf's (ISO/ANSI and {Open,Net}BSD). What ANSI standard covers _kernel_ printf()? Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 1:32:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 723B237B5A0; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:32:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e6B8WR227747; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:32:27 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: Assar Westerlund , Brian Fundakowski Feldman , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? Message-ID: <20000711013227.P25571@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <5lzonpbc53.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <57067.963303670@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <57067.963303670@axl.ops.uunet.co.za>; from sheldonh@uunet.co.za on Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 10:21:10AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Sheldon Hearn [000711 01:21] wrote: > > > On 11 Jul 2000 05:04:40 +0200, Assar Westerlund wrote: > > > Consistency with other printf's (ISO/ANSI and {Open,Net}BSD). > > What ANSI standard covers _kernel_ printf()? POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA -along with- *BSD compatibility which is more important. thanks, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 2:14:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mppsystems.com (mppsystems.com [208.210.148.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01EF937B742 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 02:14:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mpp@mppsystems.com) Received: (from mpp@localhost) by mppsystems.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA16882; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 04:14:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mpp) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 04:14:15 -0500 From: Mike Pritchard To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? Message-ID: <20000711041415.A16480@mppsystems.com> References: <5lzonpbc53.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <57067.963303670@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <20000711013227.P25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000711013227.P25571@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:32:27AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 01:32:27AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Sheldon Hearn [000711 01:21] wrote: > > On 11 Jul 2000 05:04:40 +0200, Assar Westerlund wrote: > > > > > Consistency with other printf's (ISO/ANSI and {Open,Net}BSD). > > > > What ANSI standard covers _kernel_ printf()? > > POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA > POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA > POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA POLA I would be pretty astonished if our kernel printf supported all of the libc printf options. Most of the *NIX systems (SysV/BSD/mutants) I've worked on usually had a pretty stripped down version of printf for the kernel. -Mike -- Mike Pritchard mpp@FreeBSD.org or mpp@mppsystems.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 3: 4: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gidora.zeta.org.au (gidora.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8668237B982 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 03:03:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bde@zeta.org.au) Received: (qmail 22017 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2000 10:03:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bde.zeta.org.au) (203.2.228.102) by gidora.zeta.org.au with SMTP; 11 Jul 2000 10:03:48 -0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:03:42 +1000 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-Sender: bde@besplex.bde.org To: Mike Smith Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? In-Reply-To: <200007110057.RAA08039@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Mike Smith wrote: > [On someday, Alfred Perlstein wrote:] > > I was annoyed when I used %i and it didn't work. POLA. > > Can I have %Z? It should take an integer argument, and print that many > 'fnord's. Thankyou. Unfortunately, %i is Standard in libc, and not even deprecated. Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 3:19:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9322E37B8DB; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 03:19:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e6BAJEu00244; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 03:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 03:19:13 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Bruce Evans Cc: Mike Smith , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? Message-ID: <20000711031913.Q25571@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200007110057.RAA08039@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from bde@zeta.org.au on Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 08:03:42PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Bruce Evans [000711 03:04] wrote: > On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Mike Smith wrote: > > > [On someday, Alfred Perlstein wrote:] > > > I was annoyed when I used %i and it didn't work. POLA. > > > > Can I have %Z? It should take an integer argument, and print that many > > 'fnord's. Thankyou. > > Unfortunately, %i is Standard in libc, and not even deprecated. Can I take this as an "approved by" ? thanks, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 3:56:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0080537B963; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 03:56:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id DAA98036; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 03:56:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 03:56:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: arch@freebsd.org Cc: net@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org, Hajimu UMEMOTO Subject: Merge of KAME code Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm still intending to merge back the KAME code into 4.0 in a few days, to give something approaching adequate shakedown time in 4.0 before release. With the exception of the rcmd_af() bug found by Peter, and missing functionality in IPv6 multicast (see recent post to -net by itojun) I haven't heard of any problems with the new code. I'm still nervous about merging back the libc changes because (as demonstrated already) they have a larger chance to affect IPv4 operation. Umemoto-san, do you have any opinions about the wisdom of this? (As a reminder, my motivation for pushing this is to have 4.1 be capable of running racoon, the KAME IKE daemon, which makes IPSEC *much* more functional and usable in real-world situations (including interoperation with other platforms). Secondary, but still important, is to push FreeBSD as a viable platform for IPv6 and IPSEC research - based on the traffic I see on the KAME mailing list, FreeBSD is already a major research platform but users until now had to use the 4.0-REL KAME snaps) If anyone has problems with the new KAME they've been keeping to themselves, or intends to exercise some kind of veto, please let me know! Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 5: 8:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ECA137B9D2; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 05:08:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27687; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:07:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:07:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: "David O'Brien" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-Reply-To: <20000710235901.C26861@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, David O'Brien wrote: > > > > *IFF* LPRng uses a 3-line BSD license, then I withdraw my objection to > > > > it being in the base system. > > > > > > Why do you have problems with a BSD-style license with the stipulation > > > that derived versions are marked as such? > > > > He didn't say that. > > Which "he"? If you mean the LPRng author, that is how I read his email. > How did you read it?? > > > I *appears* to me that he requires that each and every change in the > > sources be distinctly added to the -V message. > > Can you please quote me from the LPRng's author's email where he either > said or implied that? In his examples, simply adding "FreeBSD specific > version" or something like that is all that is required. > > > I guess that means all cvs history in any of the LPRng sources must be > > listed. > > > Look, it sounds stupid, but *I* didn't say it, he did. Don't blame me > > for it. > > Please quote me where. I don't have a copy in my email archives; someone forward me one. He did distinctly say that, for the -V option, in addition to his credits, the software must be marked with any modifications (type and who modified it, I think) that were done. He didn't want to be blamed if it wasn't 100% exactly how he gave it to us. Those were in the "two additional paragraphs" that he stipulated to be added to the normal BSD license. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 5:31:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from hitpro.hitachi.co.jp (hitpro.hitachi.co.jp [133.145.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5241037B9D2; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 05:31:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ume@bisd.hitachi.co.jp) Received: from bisdgw.bisd.hitachi.co.jp by hitpro.hitachi.co.jp (8.9.3/3.7W-hitpro) id VAA29364; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:31:07 +0900 (JST) Received: from plum.ssr.bisd.hitachi.co.jp by bisdgw.bisd.hitachi.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W-bisdgw) with ESMTP id VAA15772; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:31:06 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from ume@bisd.hitachi.co.jp) Received: from localhost (IDENT:TnWloJykWU499Texbnpyz7+L7aXQQU/kh9ySh/cxpbi11sA6dAzw5ukJkKVt7Fug@localhost [::1]) by plum.ssr.bisd.hitachi.co.jp (8.10.1/3.7W-plum) with ESMTP id e6BCV6F67499; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:31:06 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from ume@bisd.hitachi.co.jp) Message-Id: <200007111231.e6BCV6F67499@plum.ssr.bisd.hitachi.co.jp> To: kris@FreeBSD.org Cc: arch@freebsd.org, net@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Merge of KAME code From: Hajimu UMEMOTO In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: xcite1.20> Mew version 1.94.2 on XEmacs 21.1 (Bryce Canyon) X-PGP-Fingerprint: D3 3D D3 54 88 13 DE 22 3F 31 C4 4D A1 08 84 7B X-PGP-Public-Key: http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ume@bisd.hitachi.co.jp.asc X-URL: http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:31:05 +0900 X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000414(IM141) Lines: 27 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> On Tue, 11 Jul 2000 03:56:15 -0700 (PDT) >>>>> kris@FreeBSD.org (Kris Kennaway) said: kris> I'm still nervous about merging back the libc changes because (as kris> demonstrated already) they have a larger chance to affect IPv4 operation. kris> Umemoto-san, do you have any opinions about the wisdom of this? The merges to res_init.c, res_send.c and getaddrinfo.c before merging latest KAME issue is aready MFCed. Though, the change to getaddrinfo.c is slightly big, it corrects the behavior of mapped address and saves IPv4 users. I believe the problem of DNS IPv6 transport support was gone and I've never heared the problem anymore. DNS IPv6 transport is desireble for IPv6 users to live under IPv6 only environment. I wrote IPv6 code for installer and intend to commit it for 4.1-RELEASE. It supports installation under IPv6 only environment. It requires DNS IPv6 transport. I think other parts are no problem for IPv4 users. There are some changes which are not merged into 5.0-CURRENT yet. I think such parts are rather experimental and shouldn't be merged in this time. -- Hajimu UMEMOTO @ Business Solution System Development Div., Hitachi Ltd. E-Mail: ume@bisd.hitachi.co.jp ume@mahoroba.org ume@FreeBSD.org URL: http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 6:46: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from jasper.nighttide.net (jasper.nighttide.net [216.227.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89BE837B931; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 06:46:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from darren@nighttide.net) Received: from localhost (darren@localhost) by jasper.nighttide.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02328; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:45:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:45:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Darren Henderson To: "David O'Brien" , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Chuck Robey wrote: > I think) that were done. He didn't want to be blamed if it wasn't 100% > exactly how he gave it to us. I can understand that and even sympathize with the idea. However, adding software to the standard distribution that doesn't share the same license of most of that distribution is a bad thing. What a pain it would be if there were dozens of slight BSD license variations. There are exceptions but they should only be made when there no suitable alternatives. Thats not the case here. LPRng is available in the ports and the folks that need its functionality aren't unduely harmed if its not in the standard distribution. From the arguements I've seen so far I'd say its not worth making the switch. LPRng is a nice package, its easily obtainable if someone wants it. ______________________________________________________________________ Darren Henderson darren@nighttide.net Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 6:52:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.2.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BB0437B931; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 06:52:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13C0S6-000LQ8-00; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 15:51:58 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Darren Henderson Cc: "David O'Brien" , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:45:48 -0400." Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 15:51:58 +0200 Message-ID: <82343.963323518@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:45:48 -0400, Darren Henderson wrote: > LPRng is available in the ports and the folks that need its functionality > aren't unduely harmed if its not in the standard distribution. Not to mention that much of its functionality relies on _other_ ports as well, so to get the whole bang shoot folks would have to install from ports anyway. I'm pretty sure that there's very little to be gained by importing LPRng into the base system, since: 1) We seem to have an active lpr maintainer again. 2) Many folks don't need the additional functionality of LPRng. 3) Many folks who need LPRng will have to install it from the ports to get all of its functionality. But I repeat myself. Forgive me my exasperation, but this whole discussion has put the cart before the horse at every step of the way, so that the cart is now so far down the horse's throat that it may as well have been shoved up its arse at the beginning. :-) Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 7: 4: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3BBB37C067; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 07:03:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 13C0dI-0002Q8-00; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:03:32 +0200 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:03:32 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Darren Henderson Cc: David O'Brien , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Message-ID: <20000711160332.A9080@mithrandr.moria.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from darren@nighttide.net on Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 09:45:48AM -0400 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue 2000-07-11 (09:45), Darren Henderson wrote: > I can understand that and even sympathize with the idea. However, adding > software to the standard distribution that doesn't share the same license > of most of that distribution is a bad thing. What a pain it would be if > there were dozens of slight BSD license variations. There are dozens of slight BSD license variations already. Not to mention Beerware, Artistic, GPL, Less License, not to mention dual-licenses, and other weirdness. I've mailed Patrick privately to suggest the variation be slightly adjusted such that, like the Artistic license, only if the software _claims_ to be LPRng, shall it require the change. If you're on an embedded platform or one-box solution, noone is going to say 'lpc -V', and if you say 'LPRng inside!', you need simply qualify it by saying "With local modifications for this platform". If you're on a commercial off-shoot of FreeBSD, you can either use it verbatim, or make local changes, and qualify it simply be 'With local modifications for FooBSD' in lpc -V. If you're using the code for something that isn't LPRng, you needn't do anything, and can subsequently use the code under a standard two-clause BSD license. I assume that's sufficient for everyone? Are you amenable to this, Patrick? Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 7:10: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.2.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B8037C016; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 07:09:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13C0j3-000LTm-00; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:09:29 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Darren Henderson , "David O'Brien" , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Jul 2000 15:51:58 +0200." <82343.963323518@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:09:29 +0200 Message-ID: <82569.963324569@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 11 Jul 2000 15:51:58 +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote: > I'm pretty sure that there's very little to be gained by importing LPRng > into the base system, since: Having sent that message, I regret it. I don't care about LPRng and lpr. I care about a more general problem and I shouldn't get involved in peripheral arguments. :-) Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 8:39:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from coconut.itojun.org (coconut.itojun.org [210.160.95.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A9FA37B988; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:39:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from itojun@itojun.org) Received: from kiwi.itojun.org (localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W/smtpfeed 1.06) with ESMTP id AAA05864; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:39:41 +0900 (JST) To: Kris Kennaway Cc: arch@freebsd.org, net@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org, Hajimu UMEMOTO In-reply-to: kris's message of Tue, 11 Jul 2000 03:56:15 MST. X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: Merge of KAME code From: itojun@iijlab.net Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:39:41 +0900 Message-ID: <5862.963329981@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >With the exception of the rcmd_af() bug found by Peter, and missing >functionality in IPv6 multicast (see recent post to -net by itojun) I >haven't heard of any problems with the new code. it's already in the main trunc. sys/net/if_ethersubr.c revision 1.79. itojun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 9:21:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B875737B533 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:21:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA62652; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:21:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:21:05 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Darren Henderson Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Message-ID: <20000711092105.E26861@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from darren@nighttide.net on Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 09:45:48AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 09:45:48AM -0400, Darren Henderson wrote: > I can understand that and even sympathize with the idea. However, adding > software to the standard distribution that doesn't share the same license > of most of that distribution is a bad thing. What a pain it would be if > there were dozens of slight BSD license variations. There *already* are variations of the BSD license (which? there are 2-3 variations now from Berkeley). This smells of a smoke screen as the license is not as restrictive as the Artistic and GPL licence which we already have in the system. > LPRng is available in the ports and the folks that need its functionality > aren't unduely harmed if its not in the standard distribution. The existing LPR system is (1) becoming non-standard with the rest of BSD and Unix, and (2) is very antiquated and certainly isn't to the standards of how a piece of software should operate today. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 9:22:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB62337B533 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:22:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA62667; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:22:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:22:33 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Message-ID: <20000711092233.F26861@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <82343.963323518@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <82343.963323518@axl.ops.uunet.co.za>; from sheldonh@uunet.co.za on Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 03:51:58PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 03:51:58PM +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote: > I'm pretty sure that there's very little to be gained by importing LPRng > into the base system, since: > > 1) We seem to have an active lpr maintainer again. I'll believe it when I see him actively _committing_ to it. We've had so many people step forward to maintain something and then never get around to doing it. > 2) Many folks don't need the additional functionality of LPRng. And many do. > 3) Many folks who need LPRng will have to install it from the ports to > get all of its functionality. Then how about we rip LPR from the base system and let people install the printing system they need from ports? -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 9:33:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gidora.zeta.org.au (gidora.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B4F1537BA80 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:33:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bde@zeta.org.au) Received: (qmail 12876 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2000 16:33:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bde.zeta.org.au) (203.2.228.102) by gidora.zeta.org.au with SMTP; 11 Jul 2000 16:33:22 -0000 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 02:33:16 +1000 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-Sender: bde@besplex.bde.org To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Mike Smith , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? In-Reply-To: <20000711031913.Q25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Bruce Evans [000711 03:04] wrote: > > Unfortunately, %i is Standard in libc, and not even deprecated. > > Can I take this as an "approved by" ? Only "not objected to by" :-). Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 9:52: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C435137B533 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:51:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA62947; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:51:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:51:45 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Chuck Robey Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Message-ID: <20000711095145.G26861@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000710235901.C26861@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from chuckr@picnic.mat.net on Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 08:07:26AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 08:07:26AM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > I don't have a copy in my email archives; someone forward me one. Uh, you have an account on hub.freebsd.org. :-) See hub:/home/mail/archive/ > He did distinctly say that, for the -V option, in addition to his > credits, the software must be marked with any modifications (type and > who modified it, I think) that were done. He didn't want to be blamed > if it wasn't 100% exactly how he gave it to us. Rereading papowell's email, I can see where this came from. I understood his desires to be simply that we note that the program contains local changes. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 9:55:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mimer.webgiro.com (mimer.webgiro.com [212.209.29.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 474BF37BEEC; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:55:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by mimer.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id B6B9C2DC0B; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:00:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E22C77817; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:52:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3BE210E17; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:52:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:52:36 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: Brian Fundakowski Feldman Cc: dfr@freebsd.org, jlemon@freebsd.org, kbyanc@posi.net, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, This is just to make sure that you don't have any major objections to the code in question: http://www.frebsd.org/~abial/dyn_sysctl-080700.tgz Thank you all for very valuable comments - I tried to integrate them in the version above, as much as I could, and as much as I have time to do it now. IMHO the code is functional now, doesn't lead to panics (at least I couldn't make it panic :^), provides the advertised functions etc. If someone wants to speak up, let him speak now. I'm can wait with commit for good reasons. Otherwise on Friday I'll commit it to -current branch. Thanks! Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 10:23:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 568DB37B7B8; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:23:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id KAA18089; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:23:15 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda18087; Tue Jul 11 10:22:56 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA11493; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200007111722.KAA11493@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Received: from localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "passer.osg.gov.bc.ca" via SMTP by localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpdo11456; Tue Jul 11 10:22:22 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE X-Sender: cy To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:22:33 PDT." <20000711092233.F26861@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:22:21 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000711092233.F26861@dragon.nuxi.com>, "David O'Brien" writes: > On Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 03:51:58PM +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > 3) Many folks who need LPRng will have to install it from the ports to > > get all of its functionality. > > Then how about we rip LPR from the base system and let people install the > printing system they need from ports? This would be a huge step in the right direction. We should do the same with Sendmail, BIND, nvi, and every other component of the O/S. In short everything should be installed (or for those of us who installworld, registered) as packages, like Solaris or MVS (IBM mainframe O/S) do. Let the user decide what to install or not install. Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 10:44:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A157837B577; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:44:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA80426; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:43:59 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:43:59 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-Reply-To: <200007111722.KAA11493@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > In message <20000711092233.F26861@dragon.nuxi.com>, "David O'Brien" > writes: > > On Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 03:51:58PM +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > > 3) Many folks who need LPRng will have to install it from the ports to > > > get all of its functionality. > > > > Then how about we rip LPR from the base system and let people install the > > printing system they need from ports? > > This would be a huge step in the right direction. We should do the > same with Sendmail, BIND, nvi, and every other component of the O/S. > In short everything should be installed (or for those of us who > installworld, registered) as packages, like Solaris or MVS (IBM > mainframe O/S) do. Let the user decide what to install or not install. > And unless there existed convinient to use collections of those (let's call that bin dist), lot's of people would really hate that. I consider the present system of being able to get a pretty unified standard base system a big plus. That also means being able to depend on the presence of such when writing programs/scripts and not wrorrying too much about that there might be a system on which somebody forgot to install df, dd or something else trivial. > > Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 > Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 > Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca > Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA > Province of BC > Sander To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 11: 5:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C86737BAB2 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:05:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA68534; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:05:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:05:21 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Message-ID: <20000711110520.D84457@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000711092233.F26861@dragon.nuxi.com> <200007111722.KAA11493@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200007111722.KAA11493@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca>; from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca on Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 10:22:21AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 10:22:21AM -0700, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > > Then how about we rip LPR from the base system and let people install the > > printing system they need from ports? I was being sarcastic. I should have known this single sentence would start a thread. > This would be a huge step in the right direction. We should do the > same with Sendmail, BIND, nvi, and every other component of the O/S. Everyone already agrees with this. BUT it will not -- cannot happen until someone contributes the bits that make this happen. So it isn't worth arguing about. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 11:26:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A9E937B639; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:26:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo [192.67.166.79]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01332; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:26:03 -0700 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:26:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: Brian Fundakowski Feldman , dfr@FreeBSD.ORG, jlemon@FreeBSD.ORG, kbyanc@posi.net, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Did you compile on alpha? This is with sources from last night: cc -c -O -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -fformat-extensions -ansi -g -nostdinc -I- -I. -I../.. -I../../../include -D_KERNEL -include opt_global.h -elf -mno-fp-regs -ffixed-8 -Wa,-mev56 ../../kern/kern_sig.c ../../kern/kern_sig.c:359: warning: function declaration isn't a prototype ../../kern/kern_sig.c: In function `osigaction': ../../kern/kern_sig.c:367: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type ../../kern/kern_sig.c:367: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type ../../kern/kern_sig.c:369: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type ../../kern/kern_sig.c:370: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type ../../kern/kern_sig.c:372: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type ../../kern/kern_sig.c:379: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type ../../kern/kern_sig.c:384: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type ../../kern/kern_sig.c: At top level: ../../kern/kern_sig.c:532: warning: function declaration isn't a prototype ../../kern/kern_sig.c: In function `osigprocmask': ../../kern/kern_sig.c:538: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type ../../kern/kern_sig.c:539: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type ../../kern/kern_sig.c: At top level: ../../kern/kern_sig.c:567: warning: function declaration isn't a prototype ../../kern/kern_sig.c:721: warning: function declaration isn't a prototype ../../kern/kern_sig.c: In function `osigsuspend': ../../kern/kern_sig.c:729: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type *** Error code 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 11:31:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD6AF37B651 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:31:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustident!@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27706; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:31:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39675CCD.D3FC41FF@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:54:37 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why don't section 4 pages live with their drivers? References: <20000707082617.L25571@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000707081202.J25571@fw.wintelcom.net> <200007070438.WAA58169@harmony.village.org> <20000707081202.J25571@fw.wintelcom.net> <200007071522.JAA62042@harmony.village.org> <200007071535.JAA62175@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > > In message <20000707082617.L25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Alfred Perlstein writes: > : * Warner Losh [000707 08:23] wrote: > : > In message <20000707081202.J25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Alfred Perlstein writes: > : > : Putting the manpages in the same directory shouldn't be that painful > : > : and makes getting at them easier. > : > : > : > : What's wrong with sys/pci/xl.4 ? > : > > : > That's 7 extra files in sys/isa, but on the order of 30 in sys/pci. > : > That's starting to get painful, imho. > : > : I'm not sure I understand the 'pain' of that, is it just because you > : feel that it would bloat src/sys? I understand that concern but I > : don't really agree that it would be a problem. > > [Summary of problems elided.] > > I'm not violently opposed to this or anything, but there are lots of > issues that need to be dealt with if you are serious about moving > things. Seems like a src/sys/man heirarchy would solve both the problems. It would make it simple to find the man sources, and keep us from cluttering the source code directories. It would push the files away from the source, but predictability seems more important than proximity in this case. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 11:33: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gateway.posi.net (c1096725-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com [24.20.139.104]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA7CF37B509; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:32:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kbyanc@posi.net) Received: from localhost (kbyanc@localhost) by gateway.posi.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA38364; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:37:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kbyanc@posi.net) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:37:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Yancey To: Matthew Jacob Cc: Andrzej Bialecki , Brian Fundakowski Feldman , dfr@FreeBSD.ORG, jlemon@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Are you sure this isn't something else? His patch doesn't touch kern_sig. Still investigating, Kelly On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Matthew Jacob wrote: > Did you compile on alpha? > > > > This is with sources from last night: > > > cc -c -O -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes > -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -fformat-extensions > -ansi -g -nostdinc -I- -I. -I../.. -I../../../include -D_KERNEL -include > opt_global.h -elf -mno-fp-regs -ffixed-8 -Wa,-mev56 ../../kern/kern_sig.c > ../../kern/kern_sig.c:359: warning: function declaration isn't a prototype > ../../kern/kern_sig.c: In function `osigaction': > ../../kern/kern_sig.c:367: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type > ../../kern/kern_sig.c:367: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type > ../../kern/kern_sig.c:369: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type > ../../kern/kern_sig.c:370: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type > ../../kern/kern_sig.c:372: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type > ../../kern/kern_sig.c:379: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type > ../../kern/kern_sig.c:384: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type > ../../kern/kern_sig.c: At top level: > ../../kern/kern_sig.c:532: warning: function declaration isn't a prototype > ../../kern/kern_sig.c: In function `osigprocmask': > ../../kern/kern_sig.c:538: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type > ../../kern/kern_sig.c:539: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type > ../../kern/kern_sig.c: At top level: > ../../kern/kern_sig.c:567: warning: function declaration isn't a prototype > ../../kern/kern_sig.c:721: warning: function declaration isn't a prototype > ../../kern/kern_sig.c: In function `osigsuspend': > ../../kern/kern_sig.c:729: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type > *** Error code 1 > > > > > -- Kelly Yancey - kbyanc@posi.net - Belmont, CA System Administrator, eGroups.com http://www.egroups.com/ Maintainer, BSD Driver Database http://www.posi.net/freebsd/drivers/ Coordinator, Team FreeBSD http://www.posi.net/freebsd/Team-FreeBSD/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 11:35:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B80537B653; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:35:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo [192.67.166.79]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01386; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:35:16 -0700 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:35:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Kelly Yancey Cc: Andrzej Bialecki , Brian Fundakowski Feldman , dfr@FreeBSD.ORG, jlemon@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Oops! Sorry- I must have a bad tree! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 12:15:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.2.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1111937B71A; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:15:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13C5Uu-0000VE-00; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:15:12 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:22:21 MST." <200007111722.KAA11493@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:15:12 +0200 Message-ID: <1935.963342912@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:22:21 MST, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > This would be a huge step in the right direction. We should do the > same with Sendmail, BIND, nvi, and every other component of the O/S. Every component? I don't think so. But as far as the major components that could be said to constitute ``subsystems'', I think lots of folks agree with you. Lots of folks are not stepping forward to do the work, though. :-) That's why many of us who agree with you keep quiet -- 'cause we're not prepared to do the work ourselves. Actually, I've spent some time thinking about a new installer, something with lots of next and back buttons and finer control over what's installed. Just thinking about it gives me a head-ache, though. I'll be very impressed at the person or group of people who actually manage to come up with something. :-) Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 13: 4:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3CBF37BC10; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:04:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id NAA18823; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:04:20 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda18821; Tue Jul 11 13:04:05 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA13351; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200007112004.NAA13351@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Received: from localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "passer.osg.gov.bc.ca" via SMTP by localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpdS13342; Tue Jul 11 13:03:51 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE X-Sender: cy To: Narvi Cc: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:43:59 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:03:51 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Nar vi writes: > > On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > > > In message <20000711092233.F26861@dragon.nuxi.com>, "David O'Brien" > > writes: > > > On Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 03:51:58PM +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > > > 3) Many folks who need LPRng will have to install it from the ports to > > > > get all of its functionality. > > > > > > Then how about we rip LPR from the base system and let people install the > > > printing system they need from ports? > > > > This would be a huge step in the right direction. We should do the > > same with Sendmail, BIND, nvi, and every other component of the O/S. > > In short everything should be installed (or for those of us who > > installworld, registered) as packages, like Solaris or MVS (IBM > > mainframe O/S) do. Let the user decide what to install or not install. > > > > And unless there existed convinient to use collections of those (let's > call that bin dist), lot's of people would really hate that. I consider > the present system of being able to get a pretty unified standard base > system a big plus. That also means being able to depend on the presence of > such when writing programs/scripts and not wrorrying too much about that > there might be a system on which somebody forgot to install df, dd or > something else trivial. Meta packages like, bin, would include everything necessary and could be structured in such a way were the user would be required to choose between for example nvi or vim (IMO better than nvi). In the end you would have a df, dd, and vi, the one of your choosing. Choosing no vi for example would not be an option. (Sorry but vi is the example that comes to mind here). This would apply equally to lpr/LPRng, MTA's, named, or anything else in the system. Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 13:18:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A8237BA31; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:18:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id NAA18872; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:18:20 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda18870; Tue Jul 11 13:18:12 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA13492; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200007112018.NAA13492@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Received: from localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "passer.osg.gov.bc.ca" via SMTP by localhost.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpdU13487; Tue Jul 11 13:17:32 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE X-Sender: cy To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:05:21 PDT." <20000711110520.D84457@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:17:32 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000711110520.D84457@dragon.nuxi.com>, "David O'Brien" writes: > On Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 10:22:21AM -0700, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems > Group wrote: > > > Then how about we rip LPR from the base system and let people install the > > > printing system they need from ports? > > I was being sarcastic. I should have known this single sentence would > start a thread. As I didn't see a :) I thought you were serious. > > > This would be a huge step in the right direction. We should do the > > same with Sendmail, BIND, nvi, and every other component of the O/S. > > Everyone already agrees with this. BUT it will not -- cannot happen > until someone contributes the bits that make this happen. So it isn't > worth arguing about. It's something I've been thinking a lot about. I'm partial to to the approach used by SMP/E (System Modification Program/Extended that is supplied with MVS), however this is a heavyweight solution that will probably not fit here. The key is keeping it simple. Anyhow this is discussion is digressing and I'd rather not discuss it right now until I have a proposal to present. Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 13:31:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay.eunet.no (mail-relay.eunet.no [193.71.71.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419E337B8ED; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:31:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (login-1.eunet.no [193.75.110.2]) by mail-relay.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.3/GN) with ESMTP id WAA15381; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:31:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02164; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:31:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:31:14 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Mike Smith Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? In-Reply-To: <200007110057.RAA08039@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Can I have %Z? It should take an integer argument, and print that many > 'fnord's. Thankyou. If you add this in libc, I see no reason why not. (Note that I *do* see reasons why you should *not* add this to libc) Marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 13:46:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02FCD37B78B; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:46:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA82202; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:44:58 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:44:57 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-Reply-To: <200007112004.NAA13351@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group wrote: > > Meta packages like, bin, would include everything necessary and could > be structured in such a way were the user would be required to choose > between for example nvi or vim (IMO better than nvi). In the end you > would have a df, dd, and vi, the one of your choosing. Choosing no vi > for example would not be an option. (Sorry but vi is the example that > comes to mind here). This would apply equally to lpr/LPRng, MTA's, > named, or anything else in the system. > The trick of course is that there needs to still be an agreed - upon (possibly minimal) set that always gets installed. The list would definately start with things like ln, ls, df, du, dd (sh, and other two letter commands) and would probably be a subset of Unix9x required commands. Anything presently in /bin is a must (IMHO) but in say /sbin most people can do without atm (but not much else). And at least IMHO bind is not an optional component. But pccard, ctm, isdn, and several others are. > > Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 > Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 > Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca > Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA > Province of BC > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 13:53:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 146E037B9D3; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:53:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA813272; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:53:02 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000711092233.F26861@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <82343.963323518@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <20000711092233.F26861@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:53:54 -0400 To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, Sheldon Hearn From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - committer Issues Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 9:22 AM -0700 7/11/00, David O'Brien wrote: >On Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 03:51:58PM +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > I'm pretty sure that there's very little to be gained by > > importing LPRng into the base system, since: > > > > 1) We seem to have an active lpr maintainer again. > >I'll believe it when I see him actively _committing_ to it. >We've had so many people step forward to maintain something >and then never get around to doing it. If we are talking about me, which I assume we are, then let me note that so far I have not been made a committer. I do not have an account. I do not have access to the cvs repository (or if I do, no one has told me that I do...). I do have some pending updates to lpr in PR's. I would write more if it didn't seem silly to write more when the current ones are not being committed. I have been sending patches to freebsd's lpr over the past year or two, including cases where I have reviewed PR's that SOMEONE ELSE has sent in, and I wrote (or rewrote) a patch to address THAT freebsd user's question. Also note that I did specifically ask Warner to wait a bit on pushing the commit track for me, just because I have been tied up for the last few weeks with some paperwork that the IRS expects me to send them. Something about the letters 'IRS' still takes higher priority than the letters 'lpd'... :-) In any case, those IRS forms were mailed off around noon today. I do have a few more forms to fill out, but nothing that is likely to give me a ulcer, so as of right now I could start learning more about what I need to do to be a committer. I do not expect to be blazing my name in the sky right away, but I'm willing to see what I can do. Note that I *am* actively working on updates to RPI's lpr/lpd right now, some of which have to be working before the start of this fall semester. For the moment, lpd and lpr are pretty much my full-time work. I can either leave those updates in RPI's lpr/lpd (which is what I have been doing for the last five years -- check back on a message I sent to arch about a month or two ago), or I could fold those back into freebsd's lpr. It makes little difference to me. Also note that I'm not going to sit here and say nasty things about lprNG just because I am willing to be a committer for the current lpr. Patrick has done a lot of work with lprNG, and if people would rather have Patrick supporting freebsd's lpr (by importing lprNG to be the one and only lpr), then I will not feel insulted at all. I also will not be looking to be a committer, because I have no real experience with lprNG's internals. If you are going to go with lprNG, then you really ought to have the real author supporting it. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 13:58:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D1A537B61A; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:58:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA314388; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:58:26 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000711092233.F26861@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <82343.963323518@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <20000711092233.F26861@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:59:17 -0400 To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, Sheldon Hearn From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 9:22 AM -0700 7/11/00, David O'Brien wrote: >On Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 03:51:58PM +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > 2) Many folks don't need the additional functionality of LPRng. > >And many do. > > > 3) Many folks who need LPRng will have to install it from the > > ports to get all of its functionality. > >Then how about we rip LPR from the base system and let people >install the printing system they need from ports? If one checks back to the start of this thread, back on June 23rd I wrote: Second, my guess is that lprNG will not be a perfectly compatible drop-in replacement for freebsd's current lpr. I do expect it would work fine for most people, but that some people will find that they will have to futz around with their printcap/printing setup to get the behavior they are used to (whatever that may be...). That might be an annoying extra step in upgrading to whatever release of freebsd that this happens on. This suggests to me that MAYBE we don't want to bring lprNG into the base system, so much as MOVE the current lpr from the base system into a port. Wherever it is that someone selects that they want 'printing' on their freebsd config, they could select either this new port or the lprNG-based port. Does this seem reasonable/practical/useful? Note that I wrote this before there was any talk of me possibly being the maintainer for the current lpr. If we DO want to do this, I guess I would also like to add the wimp-out clause that I'd like someone other than me to set up the port, and then I'd look to maintain this new lpr port (call it 'lpr-tce'), AFTER someone else has done that initial port-izing work. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 14:34:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bezeqint.net (mail-a.bezeqint.net [192.115.106.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DBB537B91D for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 14:34:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nimrodm@bezeqint.net) Received: from bsd.net.il ([212.179.173.246]) by mail.bezeqint.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) with ESMTP id <0FXJ00MEVYHYWK@mail.bezeqint.net> for arch@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:32:23 +0300 (IDT) Received: (from nimrodm@localhost) by bsd.net.il (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA13393 for arch@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:25:58 +0300 (IDT envelope-from nimrodm) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:25:58 +0300 From: Nimrod Mesika Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-reply-to: ; from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee on Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 07:43:59PM +0200 To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: nimrodm@email.com Message-id: <20000712002558.A13291@localhost.bsd.net.il> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline Mail-Followup-To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i References: <200007111722.KAA11493@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 07:43:59PM +0200, Narvi wrote: > > And unless there existed convinient to use collections of those (let's > call that bin dist), lot's of people would really hate that. I consider > the present system of being able to get a pretty unified standard base > system a big plus. That also means being able to depend on the presence of > such when writing programs/scripts and not wrorrying too much about that > there might be a system on which somebody forgot to install df, dd or > something else trivial. This scheme makes sense only for large components which have a well-defined interface. The MTA (i.e., sendmail, qmail, etc.) and LPR (lpr, lprng, cups) are good examples. Note that both these packages are not functional out-of-the-box without some configuration (usually). I don't think anyone is talking about applying this concept to df, dd and the others. -- Nimrod. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 14:46:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mimer.webgiro.com (mimer.webgiro.com [212.209.29.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24A2C37B8DC for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 14:46:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by mimer.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id 6617A2DC0A; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:50:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0698D7817; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:44:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE52410E17; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:44:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:44:38 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: Matthew Jacob Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Matthew Jacob wrote: > Did you compile on alpha? > > > > This is with sources from last night: > > > cc -c -O -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes > -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -fformat-extensions > -ansi -g -nostdinc -I- -I. -I../.. -I../../../include -D_KERNEL -include > opt_global.h -elf -mno-fp-regs -ffixed-8 -Wa,-mev56 ../../kern/kern_sig.c > ../../kern/kern_sig.c:359: warning: function declaration isn't a prototype > ../../kern/kern_sig.c: In function `osigaction': Well, but what does it have to do with my patches? I don't touch these files in any way... Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 15: 0:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mppsystems.com (mppsystems.com [208.210.148.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E528037BA0A; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 15:00:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mpp@mppsystems.com) Received: (from mpp@localhost) by mppsystems.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA20998; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:00:47 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mpp) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:00:47 -0500 From: Mike Pritchard To: "David O'Brien" Cc: Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Message-ID: <20000711170047.A20948@mppsystems.com> References: <82343.963323518@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <20000711092233.F26861@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000711092233.F26861@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 09:22:33AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 09:22:33AM -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > > 3) Many folks who need LPRng will have to install it from the ports to > > get all of its functionality. > > Then how about we rip LPR from the base system and let people install the > printing system they need from ports? Very early on in this whole discussion I had suggested that maybe sysinstall should give the user the option to choose the printing system they want installed. -Mike -- Mike Pritchard mpp@FreeBSD.org or mpp@mppsystems.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 15:23:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 685F837B662; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 15:23:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA29578; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:22:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:22:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: "David O'Brien" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-Reply-To: <20000711095145.G26861@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, David O'Brien wrote: > On Tue, Jul 11, 2000 at 08:07:26AM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > I don't have a copy in my email archives; someone forward me one. > > Uh, you have an account on hub.freebsd.org. :-) > See hub:/home/mail/archive/ Sorry, last time I looked for that, Jonathan was still moving things about, and I was frustrated in that attempt. OK, I *used* to do that, and I'll start doing it again. > > > He did distinctly say that, for the -V option, in addition to his > > credits, the software must be marked with any modifications (type and > > who modified it, I think) that were done. He didn't want to be blamed > > if it wasn't 100% exactly how he gave it to us. > > Rereading papowell's email, I can see where this came from. I understood > his desires to be simply that we note that the program contains local > changes. Well, the way he wrote it, I *think* I gave the right interpretation. I thought it was kinda goofy when conpared to any other software in the world (commercial, free, or just plain odd). OK, he's reading this, let's let him make the call. A one shot message that the software has been modified for FreeBSD would be just fine in my book; needing an entry for every change is pretty far out. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 16: 8:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0909337B8BC for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:08:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com ([208.187.122.225]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28356; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:08:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <396BA98D.77176465@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:11:09 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: papowell@astart.com Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues References: <200007092102.OAA21518@h4.private> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG papowell@astart.com wrote: > > Let me try to state this as clearly as possible: > > If the FreeBSD project wants to distribute LPRng under the BSD > license, then I will give them a license to distribute it under > the BSD license terms. I would add the following two provisions > in addition to standard BSD License terms: > > A) The copyright and version information must be able to be > displayed on request at run time by use of the appropriate > command line option. If the LPRng distribution is to be > used under the terms of the BSD license, this must be shown > in the information displayed at run time. > > [...] > > B) If modifications are made to this distribution then this must > be indicate by a notice in the source code and/or > effected binaries, and the notice displayed at run as part of > the copyright and version information. The information must > include the name or identity of the person or entity modifying > the code and the date of modification or release if applicable. > > For example: > > ORIGINAL LPRng Distribution, compiled from source, no changes: > > ## lpc -V > LPRng-3.6.19, Copyright 1988-2000 Patrick Powell, > > LPRng distributed with FreeBSD under the BSD license: > > ## lpc -V > LPRng-3.6.19, Copyright 1988-2000 Patrick Powell, > FreeBSD Project, 2000-07-07, Distributed under BSD license, http://www.freebsd.org > > Modified by somebody AND NOT JUST RECOMPILED: > > ## lpc -V > LPRng-3.6.19, Copyright 1988-2000 Patrick Powell, > FreeBSD Project, 2000-07-07, BSD License, > modified by: FumbleFingerd Corp, version 1.10, 2000-Jan-05, I certainly have no objection to ANY of the above. In fact, it wouldn't bother me a bit if -V (or even -VV) spit out the entire text of the license rather than a URL reference. In general, BSD folks have no problems with "give credit" license clauses. In fact, I've added this message to my growing collection of points to consider in an ideal open-source license. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 16:27:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B54137B990; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:27:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA337744; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:27:14 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000711092105.E26861@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20000711092105.E26861@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:28:21 -0400 To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 9:21 AM -0700 7/11/00, David O'Brien wrote: > > LPRng is available in the ports and the folks that need > > its functionality aren't unduely harmed if its not in > > the standard distribution. > >The existing LPR system is (1) becoming non-standard with >the rest of BSD and Unix, and (2) is very antiquated and >certainly isn't to the standards of how a piece of software >should operate today. In what areas have NetBSD and OpenBSD been changing lpr? I have not checked in with their lpr in several years, but I am certainly willing to look those over for any good ideas, once I catch up with my current backlog of work. My guess is that I wouldn't have any time to look over {Open,Net}BSD's lpr until September at the very earliest. I'm also interested in what Darwin/MacOS-10 is up to, as it happens that I'm the main MacOS support person on the RPI campus. (not that we have a lot of Macs, but I do a lot of the support for what we have). I also dabbled a lot with NeXTstations, so I'm predisposed to poking thru Darwin even if RPI wasn't going to run it for anything. I'm not arguing here, I am really interested and you sound like you know of some specific issues. I have had to make an occasional change to our (RPI's) lpr to make things work better with linux users on campus, and now that BSD-ish interest is on the increase at RPI I would certainly be happy to have any heads-up for things to look out for there, too. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 18:39:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from cypherpunks.ai (cypherpunks.ai [209.88.68.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BD1537BA5E; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:39:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeroen@vangelderen.org) Received: from vangelderen.org (grolsch.ai [209.88.68.214]) by cypherpunks.ai (Postfix) with ESMTP id 099D449; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:39:13 -0400 (AST) Message-ID: <396BCC40.B144C513@vangelderen.org> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:39:12 -0400 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues References: <82343.963323518@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <20000711092233.F26861@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: [...] > > 3) Many folks who need LPRng will have to install it from the ports to > > get all of its functionality. > > Then how about we rip LPR from the base system and let people install the > printing system they need from ports? Yay! I think this is the correct approach for most software that isn't universally needed and for which 2 or more competing versions exist. Now putting the money where my mouth is I added support for this to to 4-STABLE sysinstall in about 30 minutes, akin to the desktop selection code that is already there. All we need is two packages named '44bsd-lpr' (following the naming convention adopted for our old csh) and 'lprNG' and sysinstall should work. I'm not going to do the packages (I lack the time and experience) but I will make proper quality patches available if there is demand for it. For now there is a proof-of-concept tar.gz at http://jeroen.vangelderen.org/FreeBSD/ . Extract in /sys/release/sysinstall && make && ./sysinstall . Cheers, Jeroen PS. I think lpr ought not be in the base system. If however we include one it should be lprNG. Our lpr is crap. -- Jeroen C. van Gelderen o _ _ _ jeroen@vangelderen.org _o /\_ _ \\o (_)\__/o (_) _< \_ _>(_) (_)/<_ \_| \ _|/' \/ (_)>(_) (_) (_) (_) (_)' _\o_ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 18:49:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from c1mailgw1.prontomail.com (c1mailgw1.prontomail.com [208.178.29.197]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A4E437BA5E for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:49:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from c1mail01.prontomail.com (208.178.29.101) by c1mailgw1.prontomail.com (NPlex 4.5.049) id 3969EE5E00031FC2 for arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:49:11 -0700 Received: by c1mail01.prontomail.com (NPlex 2.0.123); Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:49:08 -0700 Received: from 209.88.169.254 by SmtpServer for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:49:23 +0000 Message-ID: <396BAD9C.69FF445B@asme.org> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:28:28 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? References: <20000621221636.A4137@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In order to fully "comply" with POLA, I would prefer not have LPRng by default on FreeBSD 4.x, FreeBSD 5.0 can be different because people will expect the BSDi code in it and since they are now adopting LPRng, it would be good to have it there. May I suggest we delay the decision until a 5.0 release is near, and give some time for our new maintainer to commit his improvements? cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 20:19:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D32B37BB49; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:19:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA85497; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:19:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:18:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-Reply-To: <396BCC40.B144C513@vangelderen.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > > Then how about we rip LPR from the base system and let people install the > > printing system they need from ports? > > Yay! I think this is the correct approach for most software > that isn't universally needed and for which 2 or more > competing versions exist. I disagree very strongly. This goes directly in the face of friendliness. Assume that *some* folks (and I say that tongue-in-cheek) are actually not gurus when they install FreeBSD ... they want (and very rightly expect) that a good assortment of default utilities exist so that they can take advantage of the capabilities of a good OS. I'm not saying we bundle everything, but I *am* saying that there are a minimum of utils that should NOT be divorced. Print is very definitely one of these. > PS. I think lpr ought not be in the base system. If however we > include one it should be lprNG. Our lpr is crap. That's going *way* too far. Our lpr is far from crap, and is maintained. Seeing as the license thing is taken care of, I am no longer against LPRng, but I *am* against inflammatory false statements (seeming to say "everything but my personal choice is garbage"), and I am *very* much against making FreeBSD more user-unfriendly out of the box. If I see LPRng getting brought in on wings of statements like that, I will oppose it. If I see LPRng (now that the license issue is settled) brought in for solid, proveable reasons, I'll be happy it happened. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 21:25:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from cypherpunks.ai (cypherpunks.ai [209.88.68.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1044C37BB36; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:25:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeroen@vangelderen.org) Received: from vangelderen.org (grolsch.ai [209.88.68.214]) by cypherpunks.ai (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A5C251; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:25:39 -0400 (AST) Message-ID: <396BF343.B0A431DF@vangelderen.org> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:25:39 -0400 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chuck Robey Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: LPR in base or as package? [Was: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chuck Robey wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > > > > Then how about we rip LPR from the base system and let people install the > > > printing system they need from ports? > > > > Yay! I think this is the correct approach for most software > > that isn't universally needed and for which 2 or more > > competing versions exist. > > I disagree very strongly. This goes directly in the face of > friendliness. Assume that *some* folks (and I say that > tongue-in-cheek) are actually not gurus when they install FreeBSD ... they > want (and very rightly expect) that a good assortment of default utilities > exist so that they can take advantage of the capabilities of a good > OS. You conveniently snipped the most important bit of my message: my sysinstall mods[1] that make installing LPR easy. If you are going to argue, please address all the points, including the sysinstall mods (which you didn't even look add, I might add). If you think a sysinstall knob isn't sufficient, let me know why but don't ignore the proposal and don't pull my quotes out of context. Thank you. Now on with the discussion: > I'm not saying we bundle everything, but I *am* saying that there are > a minimum of utils that should NOT be divorced. Print is very definitely > one of these. Why lpr and not Samba? Or more generally, what *objective* metric do you use to choose what goes in the base system and what not? I assume*d* that we'll never find a satisfying answer to that question (I'd like to be proven wrong however) so I propose to give the user complete control over what he installs[2]. Hence my proposal and the following questions: Why isn't a sysinstall knob sufficient to install the LPR of choice? Such a knob seems to work fine for X and the various desktops (KDE, GNOME, WindowMaker)[3]. What if the choice only applied to a 'custom' install? I.e. other install options (standard, express) have an LPR installed by default. Would this address your concerns? If not, why not? Note that having LPR as a package has an added benefit in that it allows one to easily set up a system without any lpr at all. Happens to be ideal for *all* 20 machines over here. I suspect I'm not the only one to whom that applies... Another benefit is that packages can be updated independent from the base system. If that is inconvenient we can hook the package update into the buildworld process. The other way around doesn't really work. I'm trying hard to not sacrifice user convenience. Hell, I even modified sysinstall which is not very pleasant... Cheers, Jeroen [1] http://jeroen.vangelderen.org/FreeBSD/sysinstall.tar.gz [2] Whatever form that may take. The sysinstall hack is just a quick prototype. [3] Which, one might argue, are much more important for a user-friendly system than, say, LPR. At least for a subset of our userbase. -- Jeroen C. van Gelderen o _ _ _ jeroen@vangelderen.org _o /\_ _ \\o (_)\__/o (_) _< \_ _>(_) (_)/<_ \_| \ _|/' \/ (_)>(_) (_) (_) (_) (_)' _\o_ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 21:45: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.integratus.com (miami.integratus.com [63.209.2.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D2CBA37BA65 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:45:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jar@integratus.com) Received: (qmail 1264 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2000 04:45:02 -0000 Received: from kungfu.integratus.com (HELO integratus.com) (172.20.5.168) by tortuga1.integratus.com with SMTP; 12 Jul 2000 04:45:02 -0000 Message-ID: <396BF7CD.C9D80CCA@integratus.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:45:01 -0700 From: Jack Rusher Organization: Integratus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" Cc: Chuck Robey , obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, Sheldon Hearn , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Knobs for optional software... References: <396BF343.B0A431DF@vangelderen.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" wrote: > > Why isn't a sysinstall knob sufficient to install the > LPR of choice? Such a knob seems to work fine for X > and the various desktops (KDE, GNOME, WindowMaker)[3]. I think the knob approach is an excellent way to go. It seems to me that the best installer for most people's needs would: o install almost nothing by default o have knobs for nearly everything o have "bundle" packages that group things together o when a user requests a bundle, ask which (say) print system they want (query on duplicates) We have something like that now with the "User, Developer, Kernel Developer, etc" choice for which distributions to drop, so why not do the same thing for install packaging? (I mean, aside from the huge amount of work involved). We would, of course, need a little more package metadata to make this anything but a maintenance nightmare, but I think some XML and a clever architecture could work out pretty well. There has been some interesting talk lately about setting up a truly "generic" kernel that loads all drivers from a set of modules at boot time. It seems to me like the whole project is moving towards nice cut points for all system components, so why not plan for it across the board? Just my $0.02. Thanks, -- Jack Rusher, Senior Engineer | mailto:jar@integratus.com Integratus, Inc. | http://www.integratus.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 22:15:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dr-evil.shagadelic.org (yeah-baby.shagadelic.org [208.176.2.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82FCD37B9D4; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:15:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thorpej@zembu.com) Received: by dr-evil.shagadelic.org (Postfix, from userid 7518) id 2B2A5D203; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:12:36 -0700 From: Jason R Thorpe To: Thomas Klausner Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-kern@netbsd.org Subject: Re: minherit(2) API Message-ID: <20000711221235.W11576@dr-evil.shagadelic.org> Reply-To: thorpej@zembu.com Mail-Followup-To: Jason R Thorpe , Thomas Klausner , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-kern@netbsd.org References: <20000709150924.N23637@danbala.tuwien.ac.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000709150924.N23637@danbala.tuwien.ac.at>; from wiz@netbsd.org on Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 03:09:24PM +0200 Organization: Zembu Labs, Inc. Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 03:09:24PM +0200, Thomas Klausner wrote: > The user API for minherit(2) is broken on all three of > {Free,Net,Open}BSD, but broken differently (for details see end of > this mail). We would like to see a common fix that allows minherit to > be used portably across the three systems. > > The API we propose: > > synopsis for minherit: > > #include > > int minherit(void *addr, size_t len, int inherit); > > constants for inherit parameter defined in sys/mman.h: > > #define MAP_INHERIT_SHARE 0 /* share with child */ > #define MAP_INHERIT_COPY 1 /* copy into child */ > #define MAP_INHERIT_NONE 2 /* absent from child */ > > possibly including the following: > > #define MAP_INHERIT_DONATE_COPY 3 /* copy and delete */ > #define MAP_INHERIT_DEFAULT MAP_INHERIT_COPY > > (donate copy is not present in FreeBSD, default is not documented in > the man pages of any of the three). DONATE_COPY is not implemented in UVM. I'm not sure it was ever implemented anywhere. "Copy and delete" is really "move", right? Anyway, it's not clear those semantics are really useful at all. > That this change is not backwards compatible is of little concern, > since it is currently broken anyway. Besides, a C program can check > for the definition of the MAP_INHERIT_ constants after including > sys/mman.h and include conditional workarounds for the current APIs. It can certainly be made ABI-compatible. -- -- Jason R. Thorpe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 11 22:27:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F4637BBF0; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:27:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22150; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:27:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Jack Rusher Cc: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" , Chuck Robey , obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Knobs for optional software... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:45:01 PDT." <396BF7CD.C9D80CCA@integratus.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:27:22 -0700 Message-ID: <22147.963379642@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think the knob approach is an excellent way to go. It seems to me > that the best installer for most people's needs would: > > o install almost nothing by default > o have knobs for nearly everything > o have "bundle" packages that group things together > o when a user requests a bundle, ask which (say) print system they > want (query on duplicates) Which is pretty much the design, in a nutshell, of Son of Sysinstall and has been for over 5 years. It's just a pity we haven't had as many volunteers as we've needed to actually translate dreams into reality. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 0:29:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C4CE37BC4E for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:29:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA84129; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:29:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Mike Pritchard Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? References: <5lzonpbc53.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <57067.963303670@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <20000711013227.P25571@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000711041415.A16480@mppsystems.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 12 Jul 2000 09:29:24 +0200 In-Reply-To: Mike Pritchard's message of "Tue, 11 Jul 2000 04:14:15 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Pritchard writes: > I would be pretty astonished if our kernel printf supported > all of the libc printf options. Most of the *NIX systems (SysV/BSD/mutants) > I've worked on usually had a pretty stripped down version of printf > for the kernel. ...it's not complete, and it has some stuff libc doesn't have (%b, %D). I really miss a printf(9) man page... Speaking of printf(), there are two things I'd like to see added: - in libc, a *dprintf() family similar to *fprintf() except that they write to a file descriptor instead of a FILE *. - in the kernel, the addition of %a (IPv4 address) and %A (IPv6 address). I implemented these in a signal-safe atomic printf() I wrote for logging purposes a year ago or so, so I might be able to come up with patches. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 0:32: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F3837BBEC for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:32:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA84156; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:31:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Wes Peters Cc: Warner Losh , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why don't section 4 pages live with their drivers? References: <20000707082617.L25571@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000707081202.J25571@fw.wintelcom.net> <200007070438.WAA58169@harmony.village.org> <20000707081202.J25571@fw.wintelcom.net> <200007071522.JAA62042@harmony.village.org> <200007071535.JAA62175@harmony.village.org> <39675CCD.D3FC41FF@softweyr.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 12 Jul 2000 09:31:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: Wes Peters's message of "Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:54:37 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters writes: > Seems like a src/sys/man heirarchy would solve both the problems. I second this; kernel-related man pages should live in the kernel source code, but should not be spread all over and clutter up the source directories. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 1: 4: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.2.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD35937BAFF for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:03:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13CHTv-000KT2-00; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:02:59 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Wes Peters , Warner Losh , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why don't section 4 pages live with their drivers? In-reply-to: Your message of "12 Jul 2000 09:31:54 +0200." Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:02:59 +0200 Message-ID: <78679.963388979@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 12 Jul 2000 09:31:54 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > I second this; kernel-related man pages should live in the kernel > source code, but should not be spread all over and clutter up the > source directories. You sure it's worth 1.2MB of repo bloat? Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 1:32:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B72C737BD54 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:32:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA84352; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:31:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: Wes Peters , Warner Losh , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why don't section 4 pages live with their drivers? References: <78679.963388979@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 12 Jul 2000 10:31:58 +0200 In-Reply-To: Sheldon Hearn's message of "Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:02:59 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sheldon Hearn writes: > On 12 Jul 2000 09:31:54 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > I second this; kernel-related man pages should live in the kernel > > source code, but should not be spread all over and clutter up the > > source directories. > You sure it's worth 1.2MB of repo bloat? One tenth of a percent? Couldn't care less. It'll hurt people cvsupping or ctming over slow lines, but not much more than, say, a gcc or perl upgrade or a new branch tag. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 4:40:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mimer.webgiro.com (mimer.webgiro.com [212.209.29.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62A6937BB13 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 04:40:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by mimer.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id 96DF42DC0B; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:45:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6D9037817; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:35:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F88F10E17 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:35:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:35:47 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: SysctlFS Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I've been tweaking the sysctls here and there for some time now, and I'd like to see what is the current opinion on implementing sysctl tree as a filesystem. Most of the work I've done with dynamic sysctls is very similar to what happens with filesystem. Also, filesystem model allows for much more fine-grained access control. I'm opposed to the idea of having something similar like Linux /proc, though, with nice formatting done in the kernel... The objects hooked up to the names should still be retrieved in binary form, as they are exported via SYSCTL_* macros. But filesystem paradigm would allow us to reuse all the concepts for hierarchical name handling, traversal, permissions etc... The sysctlFS nodes would be probably read-only from userland, as I don't see much sense in userland programs renaming or removing them - they would be created, named and removed from kernel-land. But things like traversal and access would be simplified greatly. Any thoughts? Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 4:57:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B39A37BB13 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 04:57:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07169; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:57:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:35:47 +0200." Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:57:05 +0200 Message-ID: <7167.963403025@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Andrz ej Bialecki writes: >I've been tweaking the sysctls here and there for some time now, and I'd >like to see what is the current opinion on implementing sysctl tree as a >filesystem. I think it would be the entirely wrong thing to do as it would put the burden of rendering information inside the kernel. >Also, filesystem model allows for >much more fine-grained access control. No, in fact it would not, you can do more flexible things in C code than with struct stat. Also, if it forces us to mount /sysctl in every jail(8) expect people to yell at you for that as well. Plan9 had a nice idea, but either you take it all the way, or you don't go down that road. Going halfway doesn't make sense. Forget it... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 5:38:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ywing.creative.net.au (ywing.creative.net.au [203.56.168.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C548E37BB71 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 05:38:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@ywing.creative.net.au) Received: (from adrian@localhost) by ywing.creative.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA11336; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:45:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from adrian) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:45:10 +0200 From: Adrian Chadd To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS Message-ID: <20000712144510.A11316@ywing.creative.net.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from abial@webgiro.com on Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 01:35:47PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jul 12, 2000, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > Hi, > > I've been tweaking the sysctls here and there for some time now, and I'd > like to see what is the current opinion on implementing sysctl tree as a > filesystem. Most of the work I've done with dynamic sysctls is very > similar to what happens with filesystem. Also, filesystem model allows for > much more fine-grained access control. > > I'm opposed to the idea of having something similar like Linux /proc, > though, with nice formatting done in the kernel... The objects hooked up > to the names should still be retrieved in binary form, as they are > exported via SYSCTL_* macros. But filesystem paradigm would allow us to > reuse all the concepts for hierarchical name handling, traversal, > permissions etc... The sysctlFS nodes would be probably read-only from > userland, as I don't see much sense in userland programs renaming or > removing them - they would be created, named and removed from > kernel-land. But things like traversal and access would be simplified > greatly. > > Any thoughts? I'm probably going to poke at it in a few weeks as an "example filesystem" for some documentation I'm writing up. There are issues in having it as a filesystem - see how /proc needs to be handled for jails right now. I'm sure other people on the list can fill you in .. :) Adrian -- Adrian Chadd Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 5:55:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FDAA37BE22; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 05:55:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p40-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.105]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id VAA00366; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:55:07 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <396C6626.28389C44@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:35:50 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Narvi Cc: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group , obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Narvi wrote: > > And at least IMHO bind is not an optional component. But pccard, ctm, > isdn, and several others are. I do not use bind, but I can't even boot multiuser without pccard. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@the.great.underground.bsdconpiracy.org _DES: The Book of Bruce has only one sentence in it, and it says "the actual directives of my cult are left as an exercise for the reader. Good luck." jkh: does it really include the 'good luck' part? EE: OK, I made that part up. EE: I figured it should sound a bit more cheery than how Bruce initially dictated it to me. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 6: 0:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.ops.uunet.co.za (axl.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.2.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50CE037BDF1 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 06:00:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.ops.uunet.co.za) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.ops.uunet.co.za) by axl.ops.uunet.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13CM7b-0000tu-00 for arch@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:00:15 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:35:50 +0900." <396C6626.28389C44@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:00:15 +0200 Message-ID: <3465.963406815@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:35:50 +0900, "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > I do not use bind, but I can't even boot multiuser without pccard. *sigh* Look where this conversation has gone. We're now discussing _again_ something that nobody's willing to do anything about right now. Can't we get back to the issue that faces us in the here and now or drop the whole thing? Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 8:30:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay.eunet.no (mail-relay.eunet.no [193.71.71.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C8B537C180 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 08:30:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (login-1.eunet.no [193.75.110.2]) by mail-relay.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.3/GN) with ESMTP id RAA67268; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:30:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06404; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:30:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:30:44 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Wes Peters , Warner Losh , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why don't section 4 pages live with their drivers? In-Reply-To: <78679.963388979@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > You sure it's worth 1.2MB of repo bloat? Isn't this repo-bloat thing going too far? I mean, it could appear as though things are headed towards a point where any noncritical commit will be banned due to bloat. Marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 9:59:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.integratus.com (miami.integratus.com [63.209.2.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3330E37BE99 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:59:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jar@integratus.com) Received: (qmail 3749 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2000 16:59:15 -0000 Received: from kungfu.integratus.com (HELO integratus.com) (172.20.5.168) by tortuga1.integratus.com with SMTP; 12 Jul 2000 16:59:15 -0000 Message-ID: <396CA3E3.356F2F2A@integratus.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:59:15 -0700 From: Jack Rusher Organization: Integratus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Knobs for optional software... References: <22147.963379642@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > Which is pretty much the design, in a nutshell, of Son of Sysinstall > and has been for over 5 years. It's just a pity we haven't had as > many volunteers as we've needed to actually translate dreams into > reality. :) I have a couple of engineers at Integratus that are looking for a good way to help with the FreeBSD project. One of them was even planning to write an "is this file part of a package" utility to search /var/db/pkg and let you know whether deleting a given file was going to impact any registered application(s). I am sure we could arrange a few (5-10) committed hours a week to help with this sort of thing. You want? Also, I talked to Keith Packard about his microX server (one server for all resolutions, no acceleration, no config files, around 50K total size) at USENIX. Do we want to revisit the idea of an optional X based installer that uses his code as a basis? -- Jack Rusher, Senior Engineer | mailto:jar@integratus.com Integratus, Inc. | http://www.integratus.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 10:32:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90E9237BF62; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:32:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA07679; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:31:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAwAa49o; Wed Jul 12 10:31:26 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA20895; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:32:25 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007121732.KAA20895@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. To: abial@webgiro.com (Andrzej Bialecki) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:32:25 +0000 (GMT) Cc: green@FreeBSD.ORG (Brian Fundakowski Feldman), dfr@FreeBSD.ORG, jlemon@FreeBSD.ORG, kbyanc@posi.net, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Andrzej Bialecki" at Jul 11, 2000 06:52:36 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > This is just to make sure that you don't have any major objections to the > code in question: > > http://www.frebsd.org/~abial/dyn_sysctl-080700.tgz > > Thank you all for very valuable comments - I tried to integrate them in > the version above, as much as I could, and as much as I have time to do it > now. IMHO the code is functional now, doesn't lead to panics (at least I > couldn't make it panic :^), provides the advertised functions etc. > > If someone wants to speak up, let him speak now. I'm can wait with commit > for good reasons. Otherwise on Friday I'll commit it to -current branch. Please obtain an OID arc from IANA, and establish your hierarchy under an OID, with both dynamic and static subtrees, so that these controls can also be exported via SNMP, ACAP, LDAP, SLPv2, Saluatation, HP JetSend, JINI, LISA, and T-Spaces, as well as other externalization protocols. Thanks, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 10:37:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 211FA37BE5D; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:37:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from semuta.feral.com (semuta [192.67.166.70]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05678; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:37:23 -0700 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:35:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: Brian Fundakowski Feldman , dfr@FreeBSD.ORG, jlemon@FreeBSD.ORG, kbyanc@posi.net, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ALPHA PLATFORM RESULTS: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Finally got a clean tree again and built: Load/Unload Messages: TREE ROOT NAME 1. (0xfffffe0000a6de90) / dyn_sysctl (0xfffffe0000a6de90) /kern dyn_sysctl 2. (0xfffffe0000a6dea0) / dyn_sysctl (overlapping #1) 3. (0xfffffe0000a6deb0) /kern/dyn_sysctl bad (WRONG!) 1. Try to free ctx1 (0xfffffe0000a6de90): failed: expected. Need to remove ctx3 first. 2. Try to free ctx3 (0xfffffe0000a6deb0): Ok 3. Try to free ctx1 (0xfffffe0000a6de90) again: Ok 4. Try to free ctx2 (0xfffffe0000a6dea0): Ok sysctl -a output: kern.ostype: FreeBSD kern.osrelease: 5.0-CURRENT kern.osrevision: 199506 kern.version: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #2: Wed Jul 12 10:02:34 PDT 2000 mjacob@mathom.nas.nasa.gov:/usr/src/sys/compile/GENERIC kern.maxvnodes: 8324 kern.maxproc: 532 kern.maxfiles: 1064 kern.argmax: 65536 kern.securelevel: -1 kern.hostname: mathom.nas.nasa.gov kern.hostid: 0 kern.clockrate: { hz = 1024, tick = 976, tickadj = 5, profhz = 128, stathz = 128 } kern.posix1version: 199309 kern.ngroups: 16 kern.job_control: 1 kern.saved_ids: 0 kern.boottime: { sec = 963422176, usec = 953731 } Wed Jul 12 10:16:16 2000 kern.domainname: NAStore.nas.nasa.gov kern.osreldate: 500008 kern.bootfile: /kernel kern.maxfilesperproc: 1064 kern.maxprocperuid: 531 kern.dumpdev: kern.ipc.maxsockbuf: 262144 kern.ipc.sockbuf_waste_factor: 8 kern.ipc.somaxconn: 128 kern.ipc.max_linkhdr: 16 kern.ipc.max_protohdr: 60 kern.ipc.max_hdr: 76 kern.ipc.max_datalen: 108 kern.ipc.nmbclusters: 1024 kern.ipc.semmap: 30 kern.ipc.semmni: 10 kern.ipc.semmns: 60 kern.ipc.semmnu: 30 kern.ipc.semmsl: 60 kern.ipc.semopm: 100 kern.ipc.semume: 10 kern.ipc.semusz: 104 kern.ipc.semvmx: 32767 kern.ipc.semaem: 16384 kern.ipc.shmmax: 8388608 kern.ipc.shmmin: 1 kern.ipc.shmmni: 96 kern.ipc.shmseg: 64 kern.ipc.shmall: 1024 kern.ipc.shm_use_phys: 0 kern.ipc.mbuf_wait: 32 kern.ipc.nmbufs: 4096 kern.ipc.maxsockets: 1064 kern.dummy: 0 kern.ps_strings: 301973472 kern.usrstack: 301973504 kern.logsigexit: 1 kern.cam.cd.changer.min_busy_seconds: 5 kern.cam.cd.changer.max_busy_seconds: 15 kern.random.yarrow.gengateinterval: 10 kern.random.yarrow.bins: 10 kern.random.yarrow.fastthresh: 100 kern.random.yarrow.slowthresh: 160 kern.random.yarrow.slowoverthresh: 2 kern.fallback_elf_brand: 9 kern.init_path: /sbin/init:/sbin/oinit:/sbin/init.bak:/stand/sysinstall kern.acct_suspend: 2 kern.acct_resume: 4 kern.acct_chkfreq: 15 kern.ps_arg_cache_limit: 512 kern.ps_argsopen: 1 kern.fast_vfork: 1 kern.randompid: 0 kern.module_path: /;/boot/;/modules/ kern.suser_permitted: 1 kern.shutdown.poweroff_delay: 5000 kern.shutdown.kproc_shutdown_wait: 60 kern.sugid_coredump: 0 kern.coredump: 1 kern.corefile: %N.core kern.quantum: 99552 kern.ccpu: 1948 kern.fscale: 2048 kern.timecounter.nmicrotime: 4804 kern.timecounter.nnanotime: 4 kern.timecounter.nmicrouptime: 10398 kern.timecounter.nnanouptime: 3 kern.timecounter.ngetmicrotime: 227531 kern.timecounter.ngetnanotime: 0 kern.timecounter.ngetmicrouptime: 6093 kern.timecounter.ngetnanouptime: 47 kern.timecounter.hardware: alpha kern.devstat.numdevs: 6 kern.devstat.generation: 6 kern.devstat.version: 4 kern.disks: da0 cd0 md0 kern.nselcoll: 0 kern.drainwait: 300 kern.consmute: 0 kern.filedelay: 30 kern.dirdelay: 29 kern.metadelay: 28 kern.chroot_allow_open_directories: 1 kern.dyn_sysctl.procedure: let's produce some text... kern.dyn_sysctl.bad.string_c: hi there from dyn_sysctl vm.loadavg: { 0.04 0.01 0.00 } vm.v_free_min: 260 vm.v_free_target: 886 vm.v_free_reserved: 106 vm.v_inactive_target: 1329 vm.v_cache_min: 886 vm.v_cache_max: 1772 vm.v_pageout_free_min: 18 vm.pageout_algorithm: 0 vm.swap_enabled: 1 vm.swap_async_max: 4 vm.swap_idle_threshold1: 2 vm.swap_idle_threshold2: 10 vm.v_free_severe: 183 vm.stats.sys.v_swtch: 5925 vm.stats.sys.v_trap: 22350 vm.stats.sys.v_syscall: 37111 vm.stats.sys.v_intr: 1144319 vm.stats.sys.v_soft: 2075 vm.stats.vm.v_vm_faults: 13241 vm.stats.vm.v_cow_faults: 3251 vm.stats.vm.v_cow_optim: 0 vm.stats.vm.v_zfod: 3376 vm.stats.vm.v_ozfod: 248 vm.stats.vm.v_swapin: 0 vm.stats.vm.v_swapout: 0 vm.stats.vm.v_swappgsin: 0 vm.stats.vm.v_swappgsout: 0 vm.stats.vm.v_vnodein: 377 vm.stats.vm.v_vnodeout: 0 vm.stats.vm.v_vnodepgsin: 1935 vm.stats.vm.v_vnodepgsout: 0 vm.stats.vm.v_intrans: 1 vm.stats.vm.v_reactivated: 87 vm.stats.vm.v_pdwakeups: 0 vm.stats.vm.v_pdpages: 0 vm.stats.vm.v_dfree: 0 vm.stats.vm.v_pfree: 4505 vm.stats.vm.v_tfree: 8654 vm.stats.vm.v_page_size: 8192 vm.stats.vm.v_page_count: 31168 vm.stats.vm.v_free_reserved: 106 vm.stats.vm.v_free_target: 886 vm.stats.vm.v_free_min: 260 vm.stats.vm.v_free_count: 26861 vm.stats.vm.v_wire_count: 1314 vm.stats.vm.v_active_count: 1565 vm.stats.vm.v_inactive_target: 1329 vm.stats.vm.v_inactive_count: 1420 vm.stats.vm.v_cache_count: 8 vm.stats.vm.v_cache_min: 886 vm.stats.vm.v_cache_max: 1772 vm.stats.vm.v_pageout_free_min: 18 vm.stats.vm.v_interrupt_free_min: 2 vm.stats.misc.zero_page_count: 10 vm.max_proc_mmap: 7979 vm.pageout_stats_max: 886 vm.pageout_full_stats_interval: 20 vm.pageout_stats_interval: 5 vm.pageout_stats_free_max: 5 vm.swap_idle_enabled: 0 vm.defer_swapspace_pageouts: 0 vm.disable_swapspace_pageouts: 0 vm.max_page_launder: 32 vm.zone: ITEM SIZE LIMIT USED FREE REQUESTS PIPE: 256, 0, 2, 126, 56 SWAPMETA: 160, 62336, 0, 0, 0 tcpcb: 864, 1064, 9, 27, 23 ripcb: 288, 1064, 0, 28, 1 tcpcb: 864, 1064, 0, 0, 0 udpcb: 288, 1064, 8, 48, 73 unpcb: 128, 0, 5, 123, 7 socket: 352, 1064, 22, 47, 105 KNOTE: 128, 0, 0, 0, 0 AIOLIO: 1024, 0, 0, 0, 0 AIOL: 64, 0, 0, 0, 0 AIOCB: 224, 0, 0, 0, 0 AIOP: 64, 0, 0, 0, 0 AIO: 160, 0, 0, 0, 0 NFSNODE: 448, 0, 16, 20, 16 NFSMOUNT: 864, 0, 3, 15, 3 VNODE: 320, 0, 332, 52, 332 NAMEI: 1024, 0, 0, 16, 3578 VMSPACE: 352, 0, 15, 54, 208 PROC: 704, 0, 19, 39, 212 DP fakepg: 128, 0, 0, 0, 0 PV ENTRY: 56, 169668, 3078, 28556, 31188 MAP ENTRY: 80, 0, 233, 201, 4948 KMAP ENTRY: 80, 7920, 32, 198, 278 MAP: 176, 0, 7, 3, 7 VM OBJECT: 160, 0, 413, 98, 3079 vm.zone_kmem_pages: 11 vm.zone_kmem_kvaspace: 21192704 vm.zone_kern_pages: 43 vfs.nfs.nfs_privport: 0 vfs.nfs.async: 0 vfs.nfs.commit_blks: 0 vfs.nfs.commit_miss: 0 vfs.nfs.realign_test: 136 vfs.nfs.realign_count: 0 vfs.nfs.bufpackets: 4 vfs.nfs.gatherdelay: 10000 vfs.nfs.gatherdelay_v3: 0 vfs.nfs.defect: 0 vfs.nfs.diskless_valid: 0 vfs.nfs.diskless_rootpath: vfs.nfs.diskless_swappath: vfs.nfs.access_cache_timeout: 60 vfs.nfs.nfsv3_commit_on_close: 0 vfs.aio.max_aio_per_proc: 32 vfs.aio.max_aio_queue_per_proc: 256 vfs.aio.max_aio_procs: 32 vfs.aio.num_aio_procs: 0 vfs.aio.num_queue_count: 0 vfs.aio.max_aio_queue: 1024 vfs.aio.target_aio_procs: 4 vfs.aio.max_buf_aio: 16 vfs.aio.num_buf_aio: 0 vfs.aio.aiod_lifetime: 30720 vfs.aio.aiod_timeout: 10240 vfs.numdirtybuffers: 16 vfs.hidirtybuffers: 745 vfs.numfreebuffers: 2887 vfs.lofreebuffers: 166 vfs.hifreebuffers: 332 vfs.runningbufspace: 0 vfs.maxbufspace: 47562752 vfs.hibufspace: 46907392 vfs.lobufspace: 46841856 vfs.bufspace: 8175616 vfs.maxbdrun: 16 vfs.maxmallocbufspace: 2345369 vfs.bufmallocspace: 106496 vfs.getnewbufcalls: 554 vfs.getnewbufrestarts: 0 vfs.vmiodirenable: 0 vfs.bufdefragcnt: 0 vfs.buffreekvacnt: 0 vfs.bufreusecnt: 499 vfs.cache.numneg: 20 vfs.cache.numcache: 326 vfs.cache.numcalls: 7643 vfs.cache.dothits: 131 vfs.cache.dotdothits: 20 vfs.cache.numchecks: 6519 vfs.cache.nummiss: 1654 vfs.cache.nummisszap: 6 vfs.cache.numposzaps: 22 vfs.cache.numposhits: 5543 vfs.cache.numnegzaps: 10 vfs.cache.numneghits: 257 vfs.cache.numcwdcalls: 35 vfs.cache.numcwdfail1: 0 vfs.cache.numcwdfail2: 0 vfs.cache.numcwdfail3: 0 vfs.cache.numcwdfail4: 0 vfs.cache.numcwdfound: 35 vfs.cache.numfullpathcalls: 0 vfs.cache.numfullpathfail1: 0 vfs.cache.numfullpathfail2: 0 vfs.cache.numfullpathfail3: 0 vfs.cache.numfullpathfail4: 0 vfs.cache.numfullpathfound: 0 vfs.write_behind: 1 vfs.reassignbufcalls: 872 vfs.reassignbufloops: 0 vfs.reassignbufsortgood: 306 vfs.reassignbufsortbad: 144 vfs.reassignbufmethod: 1 vfs.timestamp_precision: 0 vfs.usermount: 0 vfs.ffs.doreallocblks: 1 vfs.ffs.doasyncfree: 1 net.local.stream.sendspace: 8192 net.local.stream.recvspace: 8192 net.local.dgram.maxdgram: 2048 net.local.dgram.recvspace: 4096 net.local.inflight: 0 net.inet.ip.portrange.lowfirst: 1023 net.inet.ip.portrange.lowlast: 600 net.inet.ip.portrange.first: 1024 net.inet.ip.portrange.last: 5000 net.inet.ip.portrange.hifirst: 49152 net.inet.ip.portrange.hilast: 65535 net.inet.ip.forwarding: 0 net.inet.ip.redirect: 1 net.inet.ip.ttl: 64 net.inet.ip.rtexpire: 3600 net.inet.ip.rtminexpire: 10 net.inet.ip.rtmaxcache: 128 net.inet.ip.sourceroute: 0 net.inet.ip.intr_queue_maxlen: 50 net.inet.ip.intr_queue_drops: 0 net.inet.ip.accept_sourceroute: 0 net.inet.ip.fastforwarding: 0 net.inet.ip.keepfaith: 0 net.inet.ip.gifttl: 30 net.inet.ip.subnets_are_local: 0 net.inet.icmp.maskrepl: 0 net.inet.icmp.icmplim: 200 net.inet.icmp.drop_redirect: 0 net.inet.icmp.log_redirect: 0 net.inet.icmp.icmplim_output: 1 net.inet.icmp.bmcastecho: 0 net.inet.tcp.rfc1323: 0 net.inet.tcp.rfc1644: 0 net.inet.tcp.mssdflt: 512 net.inet.tcp.keepidle: -1188608 net.inet.tcp.keepintvl: 75000 net.inet.tcp.sendspace: 16384 net.inet.tcp.recvspace: 16384 net.inet.tcp.keepinit: 75000 net.inet.tcp.delacktime: 99 net.inet.tcp.v6mssdflt: 1024 net.inet.tcp.log_in_vain: 0 net.inet.tcp.blackhole: 0 net.inet.tcp.delayed_ack: 1 net.inet.tcp.path_mtu_discovery: 1 net.inet.tcp.slowstart_flightsize: 1 net.inet.tcp.local_slowstart_flightsize: 65535 net.inet.tcp.newreno: 0 net.inet.tcp.tcbhashsize: 512 net.inet.tcp.pcbcount: 9 net.inet.tcp.msl: 30000 net.inet.tcp.always_keepalive: 1 net.inet.udp.checksum: 1 net.inet.udp.maxdgram: 9216 net.inet.udp.recvspace: 42080 net.inet.udp.log_in_vain: 0 net.inet.udp.blackhole: 0 net.inet.raw.maxdgram: 8192 net.inet.raw.recvspace: 8192 net.link.generic.system.ifcount: 9 net.link.ether.inet.prune_intvl: 300 net.link.ether.inet.max_age: 1200 net.link.ether.inet.host_down_time: 20 net.link.ether.inet.maxtries: 5 net.link.ether.inet.useloopback: 1 net.link.ether.inet.proxyall: 0 net.inet6.ip6.forwarding: 0 net.inet6.ip6.redirect: 1 net.inet6.ip6.hlim: 64 net.inet6.ip6.maxfragpackets: 200 net.inet6.ip6.accept_rtadv: 0 net.inet6.ip6.keepfaith: 0 net.inet6.ip6.log_interval: 5 net.inet6.ip6.hdrnestlimit: 50 net.inet6.ip6.dad_count: 1 net.inet6.ip6.auto_flowlabel: 1 net.inet6.ip6.defmcasthlim: 1 net.inet6.ip6.gifhlim: 30 net.inet6.ip6.kame_version: 20000701/FreeBSD-current net.inet6.ip6.use_deprecated: 1 net.inet6.ip6.rr_prune: 5 net.inet6.ip6.mapped_addr: 1 net.inet6.ip6.rtexpire: 3600 net.inet6.ip6.rtminexpire: 10 net.inet6.ip6.rtmaxcache: 128 net.inet6.icmp6.rediraccept: 1 net.inet6.icmp6.redirtimeout: 600 net.inet6.icmp6.errratelimit: 0 net.inet6.icmp6.nd6_prune: 1 net.inet6.icmp6.nd6_delay: 5 net.inet6.icmp6.nd6_umaxtries: 3 net.inet6.icmp6.nd6_mmaxtries: 3 net.inet6.icmp6.nd6_useloopback: 1 net.inet6.icmp6.nodeinfo: 1 net.inet6.icmp6.errppslimit: 100 net.inet6.icmp6.nd6_maxnudhint: 0 debug.mddebug: 0 debug.elf_trace: 0 debug.boothowto: 2048 debug.free_devt: 0 debug.fdexpand: 4 debug.sizeof.vnode: 304 debug.sizeof.proc: 696 debug.sizeof.specinfo: 120 debug.sizeof.bio: 152 debug.sizeof.buf: 520 debug.sizeof.disklabel: 280 debug.sizeof.diskslices: 3616 debug.sizeof.disk: 328 debug.ttydebug: 0 debug.nchash: 16383 debug.ncnegfactor: 16 debug.numneg: 20 debug.numcache: 326 debug.vfscache: 1 debug.vnsize: 304 debug.ncsize: 72 debug.disablecwd: 0 debug.disablefullpath: 0 debug.numvnodes: 332 debug.wantfreevnodes: 25 debug.freevnodes: 24 debug.rush_requests: 0 debug.bpf_bufsize: 4096 debug.bpf_maxbufsize: 524288 debug.if_tun_debug: 0 debug.do_tcpdrain: 1 debug.ncr_debug: 0 debug.snapdebug: 0 debug.dircheck: 0 hw.machine: alpha hw.model: Digital AlphaStation 500/500 hw.ncpu: 1 hw.byteorder: 1234 hw.physmem: 266182656 hw.usermem: 255410176 hw.pagesize: 8192 hw.machine_arch: alpha hw.availpages: 32493 hw.chipset.type: cia hw.chipset.bwx: 0 hw.chipset.ports: 573378134016 hw.chipset.memory: 549755813888 hw.chipset.dense: 575525617664 hw.chipset.hae_mask: 3758096384 hw.atamodes: machdep.consdev: { major = 28, minor = 0 } machdep.unaligned_print: 1 machdep.unaligned_fix: 1 machdep.unaligned_sigbus: 0 machdep.adjkerntz: 0 machdep.disable_rtc_set: 0 machdep.wall_cmos_clock: 0 machdep.do_dump: 1 machdep.cnt_prezero: 0 machdep.enable_panic_key: 0 machdep.conspeed: 9600 user.cs_path: /usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin: user.bc_base_max: 99 user.bc_dim_max: 2048 user.bc_scale_max: 99 user.bc_string_max: 1000 user.coll_weights_max: 0 user.expr_nest_max: 32 user.line_max: 2048 user.re_dup_max: 255 user.posix2_version: 199212 user.posix2_c_bind: 0 user.posix2_c_dev: 0 user.posix2_char_term: 0 user.posix2_fort_dev: 0 user.posix2_fort_run: 0 user.posix2_localedef: 0 user.posix2_sw_dev: 0 user.posix2_upe: 0 user.stream_max: 20 user.tzname_max: 255 p1003_1b.asynchronous_io: 0 p1003_1b.mapped_files: 1 p1003_1b.memlock: 0 p1003_1b.memlock_range: 0 p1003_1b.memory_protection: 0 p1003_1b.message_passing: 0 p1003_1b.prioritized_io: 0 p1003_1b.priority_scheduling: 1 p1003_1b.realtime_signals: 0 p1003_1b.semaphores: 0 p1003_1b.fsync: 0 p1003_1b.shared_memory_objects: 1 p1003_1b.synchronized_io: 0 p1003_1b.timers: 0 p1003_1b.aio_listio_max: 0 p1003_1b.aio_max: 0 p1003_1b.aio_prio_delta_max: 0 p1003_1b.delaytimer_max: 0 p1003_1b.mq_open_max: 0 p1003_1b.pagesize: 8192 p1003_1b.rtsig_max: 0 p1003_1b.sem_nsems_max: 0 p1003_1b.sem_value_max: 0 p1003_1b.sigqueue_max: 0 p1003_1b.timer_max: 0 jail.set_hostname_allowed: 1 jail.socket_unixiproute_only: 1 dyn_sysctl.long_a: 100 dyn_sysctl.int_b: 200 dyn_sysctl.nextlevel.string_c: hi there from dyn_sysctl dyn_sysctl.nextlevel.string_c1: hi there from dyn_sysctl To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 10:40:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mimer.webgiro.com (mimer.webgiro.com [212.209.29.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5486537BFB0; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:40:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by mimer.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id A0E8E2DC0A; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:45:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 259C67817; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:36:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2338510E17; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:36:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:36:17 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brian Fundakowski Feldman , dfr@FreeBSD.ORG, jlemon@FreeBSD.ORG, kbyanc@posi.net, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. In-Reply-To: <200007121732.KAA20895@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > Please obtain an OID arc from IANA, and establish your > hierarchy under an OID, with both dynamic and static subtrees, > so that these controls can also be exported via SNMP, ACAP, > LDAP, SLPv2, Saluatation, HP JetSend, JINI, LISA, and T-Spaces, > as well as other externalization protocols. Sounds like a good idea. How do I go about it? Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 10:45:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mimer.webgiro.com (mimer.webgiro.com [212.209.29.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A527E37BF1B for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:45:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by mimer.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id 0F96C2DC0A; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:50:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C2C037817; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:44:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B529A10E17; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:44:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:44:31 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: Matthew Jacob Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ALPHA PLATFORM RESULTS: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Matthew Jacob wrote: > > Finally got a clean tree again and built: > > Load/Unload Messages: > > TREE ROOT NAME > 1. (0xfffffe0000a6de90) / dyn_sysctl > (0xfffffe0000a6de90) /kern dyn_sysctl > 2. (0xfffffe0000a6dea0) / dyn_sysctl (overlapping #1) > 3. (0xfffffe0000a6deb0) /kern/dyn_sysctl bad (WRONG!) > 1. Try to free ctx1 (0xfffffe0000a6de90): failed: expected. Need to remove > ctx3 first. > 2. Try to free ctx3 (0xfffffe0000a6deb0): Ok > 3. Try to free ctx1 (0xfffffe0000a6de90) again: Ok > 4. Try to free ctx2 (0xfffffe0000a6dea0): Ok > Thank you very much! The results are ok. I will wait till Sunday to give some people more time for review... and I'll write some man pages in the meantime. Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 10:59:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (fw2.aub.dk [195.24.1.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F38237C3D7; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:59:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01274; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:59:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: Terry Lambert , Brian Fundakowski Feldman , dfr@FreeBSD.ORG, jlemon@FreeBSD.ORG, kbyanc@posi.net, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:36:17 +0200." Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:59:13 +0200 Message-ID: <1272.963424753@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Andrzej B ialecki writes: >On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> Please obtain an OID arc from IANA, and establish your >> hierarchy under an OID, with both dynamic and static subtrees, >> so that these controls can also be exported via SNMP, ACAP, >> LDAP, SLPv2, Saluatation, HP JetSend, JINI, LISA, and T-Spaces, >> as well as other externalization protocols. > >Sounds like a good idea. How do I go about it? I already have registered a vendor OID with IANA for FreeBSD. Terry on the other hand doesn't realize what he is saying here so don't pay too much attention to him for now. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 11:10:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mimer.webgiro.com (mimer.webgiro.com [212.209.29.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049F037BF47 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:10:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by mimer.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id 826482DC0D; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:15:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E9CA67818; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:05:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E77FA10E17; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:05:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:05:37 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. In-Reply-To: <1272.963424753@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message , Andrzej B > ialecki writes: > >On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > >> Please obtain an OID arc from IANA, and establish your > >> hierarchy under an OID, with both dynamic and static subtrees, > >> so that these controls can also be exported via SNMP, ACAP, > >> LDAP, SLPv2, Saluatation, HP JetSend, JINI, LISA, and T-Spaces, > >> as well as other externalization protocols. > > > >Sounds like a good idea. How do I go about it? > > I already have registered a vendor OID with IANA for FreeBSD. Good! Then what it is? > > Terry on the other hand doesn't realize what he is saying here > so don't pay too much attention to him for now. I disagree with you here. I certainly see merit in having a tree that can easily be exported preserving 1:1 oid numbering wihtout fear that they will clash with someone else's. OTOH, since most oids are created nowadays with OID_AUTO, the exact numbers will differ for the same nodes depending on how and when they were created. Indeed, when we added OID_AUTO we more or less abandoned the idea of having constant oid numbers that go with names. As it is now, more reliable method would be actually to create external oids from names using some hashing schema... :^)) Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 11:31:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (fw2.aub.dk [195.24.1.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A02A37B67C for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:31:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01465; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:30:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:05:37 +0200." Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:30:43 +0200 Message-ID: <1463.963426643@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Andrzej B ialecki writes: >> I already have registered a vendor OID with IANA for FreeBSD. > >Good! Then what it is? Can't remember, look it up on their web-page :-) >> Terry on the other hand doesn't realize what he is saying here >> so don't pay too much attention to him for now. > >I disagree with you here. I certainly see merit in having a tree >that can easily be exported preserving 1:1 oid numbering wihtout fear that >they will clash with someone else's. Right, but it will be a grave mistake if we just export all sysctls with SNMP. They look similar, but they are very different. If somebody wants to add *real* SNMP to the kernel, MIB-II and similar, we can probably arrange for sysctl to be a vehicle for that, but sysctl covers more territory than SNMP does. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 12:52: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5F3E37BD9C for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:52:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA44532; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:52:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Jack Rusher Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Knobs for optional software... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:59:15 PDT." <396CA3E3.356F2F2A@integratus.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:52:19 -0700 Message-ID: <44529.963431539@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I have a couple of engineers at Integratus that are looking for a good > way to help with the FreeBSD project. One of them was even planning to > write an "is this file part of a package" utility to search /var/db/pkg > and let you know whether deleting a given file was going to impact any > registered application(s). I am sure we could arrange a few (5-10) > committed hours a week to help with this sort of thing. You want? > > Also, I talked to Keith Packard about his microX server (one server > for all resolutions, no acceleration, no config files, around 50K total > size) at USENIX. Do we want to revisit the idea of an optional X based > installer that uses his code as a basis? I'd be quite interested in pursuing both of these ideas! Do you want to have a phone conversation about this? We could probably cover a lot more ground more quickly. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 13: 2:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E974E37BDDE; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:01:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from green@FreeBSD.org) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:01:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Fundakowski Feldman X-Sender: green@green.dyndns.org To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: Sheldon Hearn , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Wes Peters , Warner Losh , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why don't section 4 pages live with their drivers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > You sure it's worth 1.2MB of repo bloat? > > Isn't this repo-bloat thing going too far? I mean, it could appear as > though things are headed towards a point where any noncritical commit > will be banned due to bloat. The CVS repository is TWICE what is was when I started tracking it. TWO TIMES! And that's _not_ long ago! If it gets much larger I will have to stop tracking www and doc, then soon ports. Let's NOT repo-copy things without a really, really good reason! I really don't want to have to have this much space worth of stuff I'll likely never use (because it's been deprecated after repo-copy); I guess that's a bit of a selfish thing, but I don't really think anyone around here _wants_ the repository to be this big. > Marius -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 13:14: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from bsdhome.dyndns.org (rdu162-228-096.nc.rr.com [24.162.228.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D486237BF47; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:14:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsd@bsdhome.com) Received: from vger.bsdhome.com (vger [192.168.220.2]) by bsdhome.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01156; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:13:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsd@bsdhome.com) Received: from localhost (bsd@localhost) by vger.bsdhome.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20120; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:13:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsd@vger.bsdhome.com) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:13:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Dean To: Jack Rusher Cc: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" , Chuck Robey , obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Knobs for optional software... In-Reply-To: <396BF7CD.C9D80CCA@integratus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Jack Rusher wrote: > > Why isn't a sysinstall knob sufficient to install the > > LPR of choice? Such a knob seems to work fine for X > > and the various desktops (KDE, GNOME, WindowMaker)[3]. > > I think the knob approach is an excellent way to go. It seems to me > that the best installer for most people's needs would: > > o install almost nothing by default > o have knobs for nearly everything > o have "bundle" packages that group things together > o when a user requests a bundle, ask which (say) print system they > want (query on duplicates) > > We have something like that now with the "User, Developer, Kernel > Developer, etc" choice for which distributions to drop, so why not do > the same thing for install packaging? (I mean, aside from the huge > amount of work involved). We would, of course, need a little more > package metadata to make this anything but a maintenance nightmare, but > I think some XML and a clever architecture could work out pretty well. As a person who installs racks of systems at a time, I would ask that however you improve the interactive user interface to sysinstall, you preserve the scripting facility that allows us to perform "nearly hands-off" installs which the current sysinstall currently supports very well (or, at least, works well enough that I haven't sent in patches yet :)). Also, please don't lose the support for doing installs using the serial console. While I understand the desire to present a nice interface for interactive installations, please don't leave the server/cluster users out in the cold. For us, _requiring_ a graphical console and requiring lots of interaction with the installation program would be a hugangeous step backwards. -Brian -- Brian Dean bsd@FreeBSD.org bsd@bsdhome.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 13:19:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.integratus.com (miami.integratus.com [63.209.2.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5D3CC37C084 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:19:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jar@integratus.com) Received: (qmail 6883 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2000 20:19:11 -0000 Received: from kungfu.integratus.com (HELO integratus.com) (172.20.5.168) by tortuga1.integratus.com with SMTP; 12 Jul 2000 20:19:11 -0000 Message-ID: <396CD2BE.27806D21@integratus.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:19:10 -0700 From: Jack Rusher Organization: Integratus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Dean Cc: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" , Chuck Robey , obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Knobs for optional software... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Dean wrote: > > While I understand the desire to present a nice interface for > interactive installations, please don't leave the server/cluster users > out in the cold. For us, _requiring_ a graphical console and > requiring lots of interaction with the installation program would be a > hugangeous step backwards. Oh, goodness, no. We make extensive use of Jumpstart on Solaris. I would really like to see remote configurable net boot installs for FreeBSD. I don't think anyone would advocate making system administration for server farms more difficult. It would just be nice to make the easy things easy and the hard things possible for both server and workstation users. -- Jack Rusher, Senior Engineer | mailto:jar@integratus.com Integratus, Inc. | http://www.integratus.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 13:48: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (mass.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C75A237BF02 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:48:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00579; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:55:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200007122055.NAA00579@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Jack Rusher Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Knobs for optional software... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:59:15 PDT." <396CA3E3.356F2F2A@integratus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:55:59 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Also, I talked to Keith Packard about his microX server (one server > for all resolutions, no acceleration, no config files, around 50K total > size) at USENIX. Do we want to revisit the idea of an optional X based > installer that uses his code as a basis? I would be very interested in hearing more about this, and I think that it'd be worth exploring. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 14: 1:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E78C37C1A0; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:01:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA06646; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:00:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAwyaqZm; Wed Jul 12 14:00:36 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA22917; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:01:08 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007122101.OAA22917@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. To: abial@webgiro.com (Andrzej Bialecki) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:01:07 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), green@FreeBSD.ORG (Brian Fundakowski Feldman), dfr@FreeBSD.ORG, jlemon@FreeBSD.ORG, kbyanc@posi.net, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Andrzej Bialecki" at Jul 12, 2000 07:36:17 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Please obtain an OID arc from IANA, and establish your > > hierarchy under an OID, with both dynamic and static subtrees, > > so that these controls can also be exported via SNMP, ACAP, > > LDAP, SLPv2, Saluatation, HP JetSend, JINI, LISA, and T-Spaces, > > as well as other externalization protocols. > > Sounds like a good idea. How do I go about it? http://www.iana.org/cgi-bin/enterprise.pl I'd let you use mine, but I haven't decided on a top level name space under my OID (private enterprise number) yet... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 14:37:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E5237C280; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:37:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA18096; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:36:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAYGaisJ; Wed Jul 12 14:36:06 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA23754; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:37:06 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007122137.OAA23754@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:37:06 +0000 (GMT) Cc: abial@webgiro.com (Andrzej Bialecki), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), green@FreeBSD.ORG (Brian Fundakowski Feldman), dfr@FreeBSD.ORG, jlemon@FreeBSD.ORG, kbyanc@posi.net, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <1272.963424753@critter.freebsd.dk> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Jul 12, 2000 07:59:13 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> Please obtain an OID arc from IANA, and establish your > >> hierarchy under an OID, with both dynamic and static subtrees, > >> so that these controls can also be exported via SNMP, ACAP, > >> LDAP, SLPv2, Saluatation, HP JetSend, JINI, LISA, and T-Spaces, > >> as well as other externalization protocols. > > > >Sounds like a good idea. How do I go about it? > > I already have registered a vendor OID with IANA for FreeBSD. > > Terry on the other hand doesn't realize what he is saying here > so don't pay too much attention to him for now. Poul, I'm sick and tired of people who piss everyone off saying crap like your statement above, merely to have the last word in a discussion. I'm not going to let you get away with it this time. I daresay you have pissed off as many FreeBSD people as Charles Hannum did NetBSD people. Yeah, I'm only participating in the relevent IETF working groups, while you are ...nowhere to be found. Poul, try avoiding the ad hominim attacks. You yourself are more than vulnerable. --- The sysctl namespace is one that should be externalized via SNMP, at a minimum, and should probably be externalized via ACAP and LDAP in order to permit FreeBSD systems to autoconfigure themselves using a Cyrus ACAP server or an LDAP directory which could be acting as an SLPv2 DA for registering service discovery information from systems that want to offer services to other machines on the network. For example, servers. For example, FreeBSD-based thin servers. For example, FreeBSD-based thin servers autoconfiguring themselves from an IBM SecureWay or IBM NuOffice directory server. It's very important that an OID-arc be allocated for configuration data that could be externalized. ACAP does not technically require this, but LDAPv3 _does_ and SNMP _does_. It's also important that the OIDs be immutably associated with the sysctl elements which they represent, so as to preclude one company form implementing things with one schema, and another with a different schema; then whose "FreeBSD schema" do you load into the management console? Which one is "right"? In particular, it is _very_ important that the variant part of the namespace be isolated from the invariant part of the namespace, and that FreeBSD follow the relevent RFCs with regard to schema definitions, as opposed to "rolling its own", like most morons who believe they understand SNMP are wont to do with their own OID-spaces, and screw the people who have to load umpteen million object definitions into their consoles in order to manage their networks. I am most concerned with the "you can ignore this part of the namespace" for the variant parts, since there is no way a managment console, such as the one from Tivoli systems, will be able to interpret this correctly. The LDAP and ACAP externalizations are more interesting in this regard, since these protocols are capable of exporting subschema entries such that a console/browser _could_ interpret and manipulate this data (for example, for supporting configuration for a deployment of tens of thousands of FreeBSD based thin servers). Did you even _read_ the message concerning the alpha stuff, and _see_ how large the alphabetic sysctl namespace has grown? Just because you aren't using FreeBSD for something commercial, don't assume that others aren't. Thanks. Terry Lambert Infrastructure Architect IBM terrylam@us.ibm.com --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 14:47:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EFC737B94C for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:47:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA15434; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:47:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAd1ay.D; Wed Jul 12 14:47:48 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24077; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:47:20 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007122147.OAA24077@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. To: abial@webgiro.com (Andrzej Bialecki) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:47:20 +0000 (GMT) Cc: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Andrzej Bialecki" at Jul 12, 2000 08:05:37 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > >> Please obtain an OID arc from IANA, and establish your > > >> hierarchy under an OID, with both dynamic and static subtrees, > > >> so that these controls can also be exported via SNMP, ACAP, > > >> LDAP, SLPv2, Saluatation, HP JetSend, JINI, LISA, and T-Spaces, > > >> as well as other externalization protocols. > > > > > >Sounds like a good idea. How do I go about it? > > > > I already have registered a vendor OID with IANA for FreeBSD. > > Good! Then what it is? He can't just give it out and let you use it without allocating a sub-arc to the specific purpose. > > Terry on the other hand doesn't realize what he is saying here > > so don't pay too much attention to him for now. > > I disagree with you here. I certainly see merit in having a tree > that can easily be exported preserving 1:1 oid numbering wihtout fear that > they will clash with someone else's. Yes. More and more people (including IBM, since they bought Whistle) are using FreeBSD for thin servers. It would really piss me off if I couldn't put a thin server from one vendor on the network with a thin server from another, and use the same schema. > OTOH, since most oids are created nowadays with OID_AUTO, the > exact numbers will differ for the same nodes depending on how and > when they were created. Indeed, when we added OID_AUTO we more or > less abandoned the idea of having constant oid numbers that go > with names. As it is now, more reliable method would be actually > to create external oids from names using some hashing schema... :^)) Or have the OIDs _be_ the names, and use user space mappings for the humans who intend to deal with them. This would make them invariant, for the most part, if sparse. The big problem with variance and hashing is that you have to make it invariant, or get the same result on the hash, in order to be able to externalize the data. LDAP can externalize subschema or other attributes at the same time; this would be more difficult to achieve with SNMP, which doesn't intrinsically understand the idea of an indirect reference, and where schema is, more often than not, considered to be invariant, and as something that gets loaded into a management console and never changes. Even were you to do the indirection for LDAP, you would end up with a schema with its own statically assigned OID that then would use data, wherein the synthetic OIDs would just be some extraneous bit of information. Mapping from an LDAP modify request to a sysctl entry change on a particular machine would be a bear. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 14:48:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 671D737C38D for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:48:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA15846; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:49:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAU8ai4E; Wed Jul 12 14:49:10 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24155; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:48:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007122148.OAA24155@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:48:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: abial@webgiro.com (Andrzej Bialecki), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <1463.963426643@critter.freebsd.dk> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Jul 12, 2000 08:30:43 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Right, but it will be a grave mistake if we just export all sysctls with > SNMP. They look similar, but they are very different. > > If somebody wants to add *real* SNMP to the kernel, MIB-II and similar, > we can probably arrange for sysctl to be a vehicle for that, but sysctl > covers more territory than SNMP does. SNMP covers "all that which can be examined or modified". How are sysctl's not _all_ a subset of this? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 15: 0:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6887037B5BA for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:00:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 24195 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2000 22:00:50 -0000 Received: from du211008.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.211.8) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 12 Jul 2000 22:00:50 -0000 Message-ID: <396CEA70.2C7A69B3@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:00:16 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Mike Pritchard , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? References: <5lzonpbc53.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <57067.963303670@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <20000711013227.P25571@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000711041415.A16480@mppsystems.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Speaking of printf(), there are two things I'd like to see added: > > - in libc, a *dprintf() family similar to *fprintf() except that they > write to a file descriptor instead of a FILE *. How about something like this: #include #include int dprintf(int fd, const char *format, ...) { char *buf; int err; int len; va_list args; va_start(args, format); len = vasprintf(&buf, format, args); va_end(args); err = write(fd, buf, len); free(buf); return err; } -- I do not approve of anything that tampers with natural ignorance. Ignorance is like a delicate exotic fruit; touch it and the bloom is gone. -- Lady Bracknell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 15:27:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8414337BF4E for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:27:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA55568; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:27:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA18949; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:27:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200007122227.QAA18949@harmony.village.org> To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Subject: Re: Moving pccardd/pccardc to sbin Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jul 2000 16:10:22 +0900." <3966D3DE.EE7078F2@newsguy.com> References: <3966D3DE.EE7078F2@newsguy.com> <200006271927.NAA48425@harmony.village.org> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:27:34 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <3966D3DE.EE7078F2@newsguy.com> "Daniel C. Sobral" writes: : Warner Losh wrote: : > : > I'd like to move pccardd/pccardc to sbin. This allows people booting : > diskless to do so and has a few other advantages. I'd also like to : > move pccardd startup earlier in the boot process. Same benefits. : > : > I'd like to do this in 4.1 as well. I can't htink of any reasoon not : > do to do this. It will require a line in the UPDATING file : > instructing people to delete the old pccardd, but other than that the : > upgrade path is covered. There's a small chance it might break old : > scripts, but a soltuion similar to mknode might work well. : > : > Comments? : : You'll need to move logger too. : : Aside from that, you know my opinion. My /home, /usr/local, /usr/ports, : /compat, /usr/src among others are all on a Adaptec SlimSCSI AHA-1460 : (aic). Hmmm. I don't want to move logger as well. I'm thinking that it would be better to have pccardd do the syslog stuff always (or never depending on the config file) and that would make it easier to move to /sbin. In addition, this will make the pccard.conf file smaller, amking it easier for the 130 new entries taht are going into it to fit. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 16: 4:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FA1337C325 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:04:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA07137; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:03:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAAZaq4n; Wed Jul 12 16:02:58 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA24182; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:04:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007122304.QAA24182@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:04:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: abial@webgiro.com (Andrzej Bialecki), phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200007122147.OAA24077@usr02.primenet.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Jul 12, 2000 09:47:20 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > >> Please obtain an OID arc from IANA, and establish your > > > >> hierarchy under an OID, with both dynamic and static subtrees, > > > >> so that these controls can also be exported via SNMP, ACAP, > > > >> LDAP, SLPv2, Saluatation, HP JetSend, JINI, LISA, and T-Spaces, > > > >> as well as other externalization protocols. > > > > > > > >Sounds like a good idea. How do I go about it? > > > > > > I already have registered a vendor OID with IANA for FreeBSD. > > > > Good! Then what it is? > > He can't just give it out and let you use it without allocating > a sub-arc to the specific purpose. PS: It's 1.3.6.1.4.1.2238. I suggest that someone coordinate allocation of sub-arcs. I suggest: .0 sysctl .0.0 variant sysctl .0.1 static sysctl ... Unless already allocated. NOTE! Some sysctl's fit into RFC2790!!! I would also suggest that all applications and networking operations need assignements, except as where sub-element assignments have already been specified, for all RFC'ed MIBs, under an RFC sub-ARC (see references following signature). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Terry's list of non-obsolete, non-experimental, non-informational, standard and standards track MIB RFC's Current as of: 14 Jun 2000 -------------------------------------------------------------------- RFC1231 IEEE 802.5 Token Ring MIB RFC1253 OSPF Version 2 Management Information Base RFC1269 Definitions of Managed Objects for the Border Gateway Protocol RFC1381 SNMP MIB Extension for X.25 LAPB RFC1382 SNMP MIB Extension for the X.25 Packet Layer RFC1414 Identification MIB RFC1461 SNMP MIB extension for Multiprotocol Interconnect over X.25 RFC1471 The Definitions of Managed Objects for the Link Control Protocol of the Point-to-Point Protocol RFC1472 The Definitions of Managed Objects for the Security Protocols of the Point-to-Point Protocol RFC1473 The Definitions of Managed Objects for the IP Network Control Protocol of the Point-to-Point Protocol RFC1493 Definitions of Managed Objects for Bridges RFC1512 FDDI Management Information Base RFC1513 Token Ring Extensions to the Remote Network Monitoring MIB RFC1515 Definitions of Managed Objects for IEEE 802.3 Medium Attachment Units (MAUs) RFC1525 Definitions of Managed Objects for Source Routing Bridges RFC1559 DECnet Phase IV MIB Extensions RFC1604 Definitions of Managed Objects for Frame Relay Service RFC1611 DNS Server MIB Extensions RFC1612 DNS Resolver MIB Extensions RFC1643 Definitions of Managed Objects for the Ethernet-like Interface Types RFC1650 Definitions of Managed Objects for the Ethernet-like Interface Types using SMIv2 RFC1657 Definitions of Managed Objects for the Fourth Version of the Border Gateway Protocol (BGP-4) using SMIv2 RFC1658 Definitions of Managed Objects for Character Stream Devices using SMIv2 RFC1659 Definitions of Managed Objects for RS-232-like Hardware Devices using SMIv2 RFC1660 Definitions of Managed Objects for Parallel-printer- like Hardware Devices using SMIv2 RFC1666 Definitions of Managed Objects for SNA NAUs using SMIv2 RFC1694 Definitions of Managed Objects for SMDS Interfaces using SMIv2 RFC1696 Modem Management Information Base (MIB) using SMIv2 RFC1697 Relational Database Management System (RDBMS) Management Information Base (MIB) using SMIv2 RFC1724 RIP Version 2 MIB Extension RFC1742 AppleTalk Management Information Base II RFC1749 IEEE 802.5 Station Source Routing MIB using SMIv2 RFC1759 Printer MIB RFC1850 OSPF Version 2 Management Information Base RFC1907 Management Information Base for Version 2 of the Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMPv2) RFC2006 The Definitions of Managed Objects for IP Mobility Support using SMIv2 RFC2011 SNMPv2 Management Information Base for the Internet Protocol using SMIv2 RFC2012 SNMPv2 Management Information Base for the Transmission Control Protocol using SMIv2 RFC2013 SNMPv2 Management Information Base for the User Datagram Protocol using SMIv2 RFC2020 IEEE 802.12 Interface MIB RFC2021 Remote Network Monitoring Management Information Base Version 2 using SMIv2 RFC2024 Definitions of Managed Objects for Data Link Switching using SMIv2 RFC2096 IP Forwarding Table MIB RFC2108 Definitions of Managed Objects for IEEE 802.3 Repeater Devices using SMIv2 RFC2115 Management Information Base for Frame Relay DTEs Using SMIv2 RFC2127 ISDN Management Information Base using SMIv2 RFC2128 Dial Control Management Information Base using SMIv2 RFC2206 RSVP Management Information Base using SMIv2 RFC2213 Integrated Services Management Information Base using SMIv2 RFC2214 Integrated Services Management Information Base Guaranteed Service Extensions using SMIv2 RFC2232 Definitions of Managed Objects for DLUR using SMIv2 RFC2238 Definitions of Managed Objects for HPR using SMIv2 RFC2266 Definitions of Managed Objects for IEEE 802.12 Repeater Devices RFC2287 Definitions of System-Level Managed Objects for Applications RFC2320 Definitions of Managed Objects for Classical IP and ARP Over ATM Using SMIv2 (IPOA-MIB) RFC2417 Definitions of Managed Objects for Multicast over UNI 3.0/3.1 based ATM Networks RFC2452 IP Version 6 Management Information Base for the Transmission Control Protocol RFC2454 IP Version 6 Management Information Base for the User Datagram Protocol RFC2465 Management Information Base for IP Version 6 RFC2466 Management Information Base for IP Version 6 RFC2496 Definitions of Managed Object for the DS3/E3 Interface Type RFC2515 Definitions of Managed Objects for ATM Management RFC2558 Definitions of Managed Objects for the SONET/SDH Interface Type RFC2561 Base Definitions of Managed Objects for TN3270E Using SMIv2 RFC2562 Definitions of Protocol and Managed Objects for TN3270E Response Time Collection Using SMIv2 (TN3270E-RT-MIB) RFC2564 Application Management MIB RFC2584 Definitions of Managed Objects for APPN/HPR in IP Networks RFC2591 Definitions of Managed Objects for Scheduling Management Operations RFC2592 Definitions of Managed Objects for the Delegation of Management Script RFC2594 Definitions of Managed Objects for WWW Services RFC2605 Directory Server Monitoring MIB RFC2613 Remote Network Monitoring MIB Extensions for Switched Networks Version 1.0 RFC2618 RADIUS Authentication Client MIB RFC2619 RADIUS Authentication Server MIB RFC2620 RADIUS Accounting Client MIB RFC2621 RADIUS Accounting Server MIB RFC2662 Definitions of Managed Objects for the ADSL Lines RFC2665 Definitions of Managed Objects for the Ethernet- like Interface Types RFC2667 IP Tunnel MIB RFC2668 Definitions of Managed Objects for IEEE 802.3 Medium Attachment Units (MAUs) RFC2669 DOCSIS Cable Device MIB Cable Device Management Information Base for DOCSIS compliant Cable Modems and Cable Modem Termination Systems RFC2670 Radio Frequency (RF) Interface Management Information Base for MCNS/DOCSIS compliant RF interfaces RFC2674 Definitions of Managed Objects for Bridges with Traffic Classes, Multicast Filtering and Virtual LAN Extensions RFC2677 Definitions of Managed Objects for the NBMA Next Hop Resolution Protocol (NHRP) RFC2788 Network Services Monitoring MIB RFC2789 Mail Monitoring MIB RFC2790 Host Resources MIB RFC2819 Remote Network Monitoring Management Information Base RFC2863 The Interfaces Group MIB RFC2864 The Inverted Stack Table Extension to the Interfaces Group MIB -------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 16: 9:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 04ABF37BE42 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:09:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 8036 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2000 23:09:25 -0000 Received: from du167.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.167) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 12 Jul 2000 23:09:25 -0000 Message-ID: <396CFA83.BCB82874@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:08:51 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Mike Pritchard , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? References: <5lzonpbc53.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <57067.963303670@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <20000711013227.P25571@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000711041415.A16480@mppsystems.com> <396CEA70.2C7A69B3@mail.ptd.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Thomas M. Sommers" wrote: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > > Speaking of printf(), there are two things I'd like to see added: > > > > - in libc, a *dprintf() family similar to *fprintf() except that they > > write to a file descriptor instead of a FILE *. > > How about something like this: > Or better yet, this: #include #include #include #include #include int dprintf(int fd, const char *format, ...) { char *buf; int err = -1; int len; va_list args; va_start(args, format); len = vasprintf(&buf, format, args); va_end(args); if ( len != -1 ) { err = write(fd, buf, len); free(buf); } else { errno = ENOMEM; } return err; } Thanks to Steve Kargl for pointing out my error. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 16:55:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay.eunet.no (mail-relay.eunet.no [193.71.71.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D9C37BD5C; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:55:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (login-1.eunet.no [193.75.110.2]) by mail-relay.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.3/GN) with ESMTP id BAA03892; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:55:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA09422; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:55:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:55:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Brian Fundakowski Feldman Cc: Sheldon Hearn , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Wes Peters , Warner Losh , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Why don't section 4 pages live with their drivers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > (because it's been deprecated after repo-copy); I guess that's a bit > of a selfish thing, but I don't really think anyone around here _wants_ > the repository to be this big. If this is really that much of a problem, why not pay Eivind to finish OVCS in record time? That, IIRC, kicks Gnats, CVS et al out the window straight off. Marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 16:58:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D1837BF1C; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:58:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B87B01C64; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:58:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:58:13 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: Brian Fundakowski Feldman , Sheldon Hearn , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Wes Peters , Warner Losh , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Why don't section 4 pages live with their drivers? Message-ID: <20000712195813.B4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from mbendiks@eunet.no on Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 01:55:02AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 01:55:02AM +0200, Marius Bendiksen wrote: > If this is really that much of a problem, why not pay Eivind to finish > OVCS in record time? That, IIRC, kicks Gnats, CVS et al out the window > straight off. All software that isn't done yet beats all other software. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect / Computer Horizons Corp - CHIMES e-mail: billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 18:17:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.butya.kz (butya-gw.butya.kz [212.154.129.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2672E37BDB5 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:17:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bp@butya.kz) Received: from bp (helo=localhost) by relay.butya.kz with local-esmtp (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13CXd4-0004Ar-00; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:17:30 +0700 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:17:30 +0700 (ALMST) From: Boris Popov To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > I've been tweaking the sysctls here and there for some time now, and I'd > like to see what is the current opinion on implementing sysctl tree as a > filesystem. Most of the work I've done with dynamic sysctls is very > similar to what happens with filesystem. Also, filesystem model allows for > much more fine-grained access control. I've played a bit with this and have reference implementation at http://www.butya.kz/~bp/scfs.tar.gz (it hasn't been updated for recent -current and may require some tweaks). This FS does nothing more than representing existing sysctl tree as a file system. On a side note: many things in the kernel can be represented (and they are) as 'tree' structure. Nodes of that tree can have 'file' like attributes etc. At first sight VFS suit for it, but new file system will require a mount point which might be not available during kernel initialization. This can be solved by having two root vnodes - one is for 'normal' filesystems and second for internal kernel file system. So, internal fs can have structure like that: /bus - newbus tree /dev - device templates (instead of flat space provided by kern_conf.c) /sysctl - sysctl tree /nsmb - SMB/CIFS requester tree but I don't think that the existing VFS implementation can be used because it too superfluous for this task and vnode structure is too large. -- Boris Popov http://www.butya.kz/~bp/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 20:53:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from funkthat.com (adsl-63-195-54-213.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.195.54.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176B937C053 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:53:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gurney_j@efn.org) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by funkthat.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id UAA83941; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20000712205322.51981@hydrogen.funkthat.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:53:22 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Mike Pritchard , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel printf %i? References: <5lzonpbc53.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <57067.963303670@axl.ops.uunet.co.za> <20000711013227.P25571@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000711041415.A16480@mppsystems.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 09:29:24AM +0200 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dag-Erling Smorgrav scribbled this message on Jul 12: > - in libc, a *dprintf() family similar to *fprintf() except that they > write to a file descriptor instead of a FILE *. check the mail archive, we've already hashed this one out a couple years ago when I suggested it... :) -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 408 975 9651 Cu Networking "Thank God I'm an atheist, that'd just be confusing." -- cmc To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 22:29:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 654E537C221; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:29:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from green@FreeBSD.org) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:29:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Fundakowski Feldman X-Sender: green@green.dyndns.org To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Why don't section 4 pages live with their drivers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > (because it's been deprecated after repo-copy); I guess that's a bit > > of a selfish thing, but I don't really think anyone around here _wants_ > > the repository to be this big. > > If this is really that much of a problem, why not pay Eivind to finish > OVCS in record time? That, IIRC, kicks Gnats, CVS et al out the window > straight off. Well, let me put it this way. Does it seem like a problem when we have nowadays a huge amount of people who would add over a megabyte to the repository and consider it a drop in the bucket, almost nothing? This opinion that trying not to grow the repository will make it pretty hard, IMHO, to keep the repository to a relatively reasonable size. As for OVCS, that would be awesome; I don't recall Eivind having made the offer to work on it full-time if paid, but if he did and BSDi would fund it, it would result in a situation that was better for BSDi, FreeBSD, Eivind (hopefully he'd want to work on it full time, right? :), and the world at large (being free software). If he'd do contract work on OVCS, I see a great oppurtunity here. As for the manpages in section 4 themselves, I like them where they are now. I like the fact that all of the man4 pages are sitting in one directory in the tree since they're also installed into one directory in a world install. Both ways have advantages, but I don't feel that you're going to end up with anything but a real 50/50 split on this, and I don't believe that the costs outweigh benefits. I won't be sour grapes if it ends up that more people would want them sitting with the drivers, but think about it another way. Drivers aren't all compartmentalized now, though many are. There would have to be a Makefile which contained a list of all manpages/directories/etc. (technically, not hard but very annoying), and you'd have various manpages sitting around outside of src/sys/dev in various busdep and machdep directories. > Marius -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 12 23: 0:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (fw2.aub.dk [195.24.1.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 926C937BC98 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:00:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA00983; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:00:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Terry Lambert Cc: abial@webgiro.com (Andrzej Bialecki), freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:04:05 -0000." <200007122304.QAA24182@usr05.primenet.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:00:21 +0200 Message-ID: <981.963468021@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200007122304.QAA24182@usr05.primenet.com>, Terry Lambert writes: >PS: It's 1.3.6.1.4.1.2238. > >I suggest that someone coordinate allocation of sub-arcs. Terry, I will do suballocations as needed. And by "needed" I mean "working code" not just talk talk talk... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 13 0:35:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8745637BA99 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 00:35:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 13CdW3-000Bvc-00; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:34:39 +0200 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:34:39 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Boris Popov Cc: Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SysctlFS Message-ID: <20000713093439.A45743@mithrandr.moria.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from bp@butya.kz on Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 08:17:30AM +0700 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu 2000-07-13 (08:17), Boris Popov wrote: > So, internal fs can have structure like that: > > /bus - newbus tree > /sysctl - sysctl tree Once the "dynamic sysctls" hit the tree, I have been running a sysctl exportation of newbus information for a few weeks (months, possibly). There's also a "sysinfo" console program as a (badly written, since sysctl is a pain to manipulate) reference on how to extract information from it: root0 nexus0 pcib0 npx0 pci0 ... atapci0 ata0 ata1 eisa0: not present vga0 at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff sc0 atkbdc0 at port 0x60,0x64 ... atpic0 at port 0x20-0x21,0xa0-0xa1 irq 2 sysresource4 at port 0x4d0-0x4d1,0x8000-0x803f,0x7000-0x700f It just grabs the information from the sysctl export: hw.devices.fdc0.desc: NEC 72065B or clone hw.devices.fdc0.children: fd0,fd1 hw.devices.fdc0.state: attached hw.devices.fdc0.irq: 6 hw.devices.fdc0.drq: 2 hw.devices.fdc0.ioport: 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 Windows-like Device Manager, anyone? Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 13 1:45:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mimer.webgiro.com (mimer.webgiro.com [212.209.29.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A544F37C349 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:45:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by mimer.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id 66F1D2DC0C; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:50:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6FAE07817; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:41:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D77010E17; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:41:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:41:38 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: Boris Popov , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-Reply-To: <20000713093439.A45743@mithrandr.moria.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > Once the "dynamic sysctls" hit the tree, I have been running a sysctl > exportation of newbus information for a few weeks (months, possibly). > > There's also a "sysinfo" console program as a (badly written, since > sysctl is a pain to manipulate) reference on how to extract information :-) I know what you mean... If you need some inspiration, you might want to look at my SPY module that uses sysctls to read or define lists of syscalls to monitor - not that it's pretty either, but perhaps there is something in it that you could reuse. > ... > atpic0 at port 0x20-0x21,0xa0-0xa1 irq 2 > sysresource4 at port 0x4d0-0x4d1,0x8000-0x803f,0x7000-0x700f > > It just grabs the information from the sysctl export: > > hw.devices.fdc0.desc: NEC 72065B or clone > hw.devices.fdc0.children: fd0,fd1 > hw.devices.fdc0.state: attached > hw.devices.fdc0.irq: 6 > hw.devices.fdc0.drq: 2 > hw.devices.fdc0.ioport: 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 Exactly that was the reason why I started working on dynamic sysctls. > Windows-like Device Manager, anyone? From your 'sysinfo' program to device manager it's only a minor step... Just add libdialog, throw some menus and off we go :-) Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 13 2:19:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gateway.posi.net (c1096725-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com [24.20.139.104]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F79037C334 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 02:19:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kbyanc@posi.net) Received: from localhost (kbyanc@localhost) by gateway.posi.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA43967; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 02:25:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kbyanc@posi.net) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 02:25:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Yancey To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > Hi, > > I've been tweaking the sysctls here and there for some time now, and I'd > like to see what is the current opinion on implementing sysctl tree as a > filesystem. Most of the work I've done with dynamic sysctls is very > similar to what happens with filesystem. Also, filesystem model allows for > much more fine-grained access control. Arg. I've already been working on this in private. :/ Kelly -- Kelly Yancey - kbyanc@posi.net - Belmont, CA System Administrator, eGroups.com http://www.egroups.com/ Maintainer, BSD Driver Database http://www.posi.net/freebsd/drivers/ Coordinator, Team FreeBSD http://www.posi.net/freebsd/Team-FreeBSD/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 13 3:15:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C63237B7F4; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 03:15:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA90610; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:15:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Brian Fundakowski Feldman Cc: Marius Bendiksen , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why don't section 4 pages live with their drivers? References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 13 Jul 2000 12:15:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brian Fundakowski Feldman's message of "Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:29:23 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Fundakowski Feldman writes: > As for OVCS, that would be awesome; I don't recall Eivind having made > the offer to work on it full-time if paid, but if he did and BSDi would > fund it, it would result in a situation that was better for BSDi, > FreeBSD, Eivind (hopefully he'd want to work on it full time, right? :), > and the world at large (being free software). If he'd do contract work > on OVCS, I see a great oppurtunity here. I'm quite sure he'd be happy to consider such an offer, if BSDi were to make one. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 13 4:11:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.freebsd.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77E2D37C3F2; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 04:11:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (hak.nat.Awfulhak.org [172.31.0.12]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA34302; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:11:09 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00789; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:16:28 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <200007130916.KAA00789@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Ben Smithurst Cc: Brian Somers , James Howard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org, brian@Awfulhak.org Subject: Re: /etc/security -> /etc/periodic/security ? In-Reply-To: Message from Ben Smithurst of "Tue, 04 Jul 2000 13:07:44 BST." <20000704130744.D13714@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:16:28 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Brian Somers wrote: > > >> Well, "periodic security" will work as long as /etc/periodic/security > >> exists, so I guess you just mean the docs need updating? I'll get to > >> that if someone is actually planning on committing this stuff. > >=20 > > Perhaps the best option is to do with the inline security option and=20 > > just run ``periodic security'' from cron ? I can commit the changes. > > I don't think there's really a problem with just running security > from daily. I can add a note that this is normal practice in the > manpage, and that security shouldn't be run separately unless you set > daily_security_enable=3DNO or whatever the option is. Oops, sorry for the reply latency.... I don't think it's appropriate to separate the security script into multiple scripts unless the intention is to run ``periodic security''. This is just my personal view though. If you feel strongly about it, you should bring it up on freebsd-arch. I'll certainly back down if the concensus says it should be split. > --=20 > Ben Smithurst / ben@scientia.demon.co.uk / PGP: 0x99392F7D BTW, congrats on your commit bit ! -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 13 4:14:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ywing.creative.net.au (ywing.creative.net.au [203.56.168.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 489DD37C3DF for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 04:14:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@ywing.creative.net.au) Received: (from adrian@localhost) by ywing.creative.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA16851; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:20:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from adrian) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:20:47 +0200 From: Adrian Chadd To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: Boris Popov , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS Message-ID: <20000713132047.B14043@ywing.creative.net.au> References: <20000713093439.A45743@mithrandr.moria.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000713093439.A45743@mithrandr.moria.org>; from nbm@mithrandr.moria.org on Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 09:34:39AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jul 13, 2000, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > On Thu 2000-07-13 (08:17), Boris Popov wrote: > > So, internal fs can have structure like that: > > > > /bus - newbus tree > > /sysctl - sysctl tree > > Once the "dynamic sysctls" hit the tree, I have been running a sysctl > exportation of newbus information for a few weeks (months, possibly). > > There's also a "sysinfo" console program as a (badly written, since > sysctl is a pain to manipulate) reference on how to extract information > from it: > > root0 > nexus0 > pcib0 > npx0 > pci0 > ... > atapci0 > ata0 > ata1 > eisa0: not present > vga0 at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff > sc0 > atkbdc0 at port 0x60,0x64 > ... > atpic0 at port 0x20-0x21,0xa0-0xa1 irq 2 > sysresource4 at port 0x4d0-0x4d1,0x8000-0x803f,0x7000-0x700f > > It just grabs the information from the sysctl export: > > hw.devices.fdc0.desc: NEC 72065B or clone > hw.devices.fdc0.children: fd0,fd1 > hw.devices.fdc0.state: attached > hw.devices.fdc0.irq: 6 > hw.devices.fdc0.drq: 2 > hw.devices.fdc0.ioport: 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 > > Windows-like Device Manager, anyone? Uhm, my plan was to write an example newbusfs with my VFS documentation (no, don't ask me for it, its still in its infancy. :) I forgot that hw.devices existed now. I was going to do something a little more like irix/solaris' device tree .. Adrian -- Adrian Chadd Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 13 6:21:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.freebsd.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C613C37B9F8; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 06:21:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (hak.nat.Awfulhak.org [172.31.0.12]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA35435; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:21:30 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03736; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:21:26 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <200007131321.OAA03736@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Brian Somers Cc: Ben Smithurst , James Howard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG, brian@Awfulhak.org Subject: Re: /etc/security -> /etc/periodic/security ? In-Reply-To: Message from Brian Somers of "Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:16:28 BST." <200007130916.KAA00789@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:21:26 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Brian Somers wrote: > > > > >> Well, "periodic security" will work as long as /etc/periodic/security > > >> exists, so I guess you just mean the docs need updating? I'll get to > > >> that if someone is actually planning on committing this stuff. > > >=20 > > > Perhaps the best option is to do with the inline security option and=20 > > > just run ``periodic security'' from cron ? I can commit the changes. > > > > I don't think there's really a problem with just running security > > from daily. I can add a note that this is normal practice in the > > manpage, and that security shouldn't be run separately unless you set > > daily_security_enable=3DNO or whatever the option is. > > Oops, sorry for the reply latency.... > > I don't think it's appropriate to separate the security script into > multiple scripts unless the intention is to run ``periodic > security''. This is just my personal view though. If you feel > strongly about it, you should bring it up on freebsd-arch. I'll > certainly back down if the concensus says it should be split. Duh! I didn't realise -arch was already on the cc list :-/ > > --=20 > > Ben Smithurst / ben@scientia.demon.co.uk / PGP: 0x99392F7D > > BTW, congrats on your commit bit ! -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 13 6:40:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F34637C454; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 06:39:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.91.36] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13Ci6f-00025e-00; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:28:45 +0100 Received: (from ben) by strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13Ci6f-000It2-00; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:28:45 +0100 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:28:45 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Brian Somers Cc: James Howard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /etc/security -> /etc/periodic/security ? Message-ID: <20000713132845.C48641@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <200007130916.KAA00789@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="aT9PWwzfKXlsBJM1" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200007130916.KAA00789@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --aT9PWwzfKXlsBJM1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brian Somers wrote: > Oops, sorry for the reply latency.... Don't worry, I've been side-tracked by docs stuff, committing things then thinking "am I allowed to do that?", etc. Fortunately I haven't been forced to wear the pointy hat yet. :-) > I don't think it's appropriate to separate the security script into=20 > multiple scripts unless the intention is to run ``periodic=20 > security''. This is just my personal view though. If you feel=20 > strongly about it, you should bring it up on freebsd-arch. I'll=20 > certainly back down if the concensus says it should be split. I don't really feel strongly, I just think it would be cleaner to have it separated out. Alternatively perhaps /etc/security could be moved to /etc/periodic/daily/.security, since it's just another daily script really. But that would mean a repo-copy and this probably isn't important enough to justify that, so let's leave it be. People are probably used to running '/etc/security' standalone as well. >> Ben Smithurst / ben@scientia.demon.co.uk / PGP: 0x99392F7D >=20 > BTW, congrats on your commit bit ! Thanks. I took advantage of it to commit a question to the FAQ which James (on the cc list) asked recently: "what is a repo-copy?", let me know if it answers your question well enough. (it's in the misc questions bit.) --=20 Ben Smithurst / ben@FreeBSD.org / PGP: 0x99392F7D FreeBSD Documentation Project / --aT9PWwzfKXlsBJM1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use MessageID: m7qH7zwKrsJvP360aTI/JYOHyBfPoZF7 iQCVAwUBOW21+ysPVtiZOS99AQFExgP9Ezg4b91D8T97FErt6HanEvE6iPSXOt92 x5Nt9yhreaQyyf4Ktj7NPNLYpmH6C5TcJX2gqDBe55cBMMIO/TzaOv6Fubb0DJ2s drpRy6AZO1ftkjP4W0WyQx9yW2sD+z5JwbHkSTzl6tk/dR21KNO4pKfOtmirbG4U BLn9fTAaSKQ= =DnFA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --aT9PWwzfKXlsBJM1-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 13 8:47:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from astart2.astart.com (astart2.astart.com [206.71.174.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF02237B6D2 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:47:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from papowell@astart.com) Received: from h4.private (papowell@h4.private [10.0.0.4]) by astart2.astart.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA22737; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from papowell@localhost) by h4.private (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA08398; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:47:24 -0700 (PDT) From: papowell@astart.com Message-Id: <200007131547.IAA08398@h4.private> To: dcs@newsguy.com, drosih@rpi.edu Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > From drosih@rpi.edu Mon Jul 10 09:18:21 2000 > Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:19:14 -0400 > To: "Daniel C. Sobral" > From: Garance A Drosihn > Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues > Cc: papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG > > In the message you replied to, I was again just asking for a better > understanding of the licensing. Your comment (the part I quoted), > states that the 'package in ports' is (and thus always will be) > under Artistic/GPL license. I was just underlining that statement, > to see if the implication of "always will be" is true. Ie, is it > true that FreeBSD will NOT get a BSD+keep-copyright license for > lprNG if we leave lprNG as a port? > > That is just a question. It is not an argument. You can keep the port. In fact, I will even supply a Makefile and some other stuff for the port. In fact, if you look in the LPRng-VERSION/DISTRIBUTIONS/FreeBSD directory you will even find the necessary stuff to generate a port: cd LPRng-VERSION/DISTRIBUTIONS/FreeBSD-4.ports.systutils.LPRng make portit and you will get a diff of the new version against the current one in /usr/ports/sysutils/LPRng. > > > --- > Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu > Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu > Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute > Patrick Powell Astart Technologies, papowell@astart.com 9475 Chesapeake Drive, Suite D, Network and System San Diego, CA 92123 Consulting 858-874-6543 FAX 858-279-8424 LPRng - Print Spooler (http://www.astart.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 13 10: 1:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ED6437C46A for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:01:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04252; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:58:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03944; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:58:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:58:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200007131658.KAA03944@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp), abial@webgiro.com (Andrzej Bialecki), freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Final call for review: Dynamic sysctls. In-Reply-To: <200007122148.OAA24155@usr02.primenet.com> References: <1463.963426643@critter.freebsd.dk> <200007122148.OAA24155@usr02.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Right, but it will be a grave mistake if we just export all sysctls with > > SNMP. They look similar, but they are very different. > > > > If somebody wants to add *real* SNMP to the kernel, MIB-II and similar, > > we can probably arrange for sysctl to be a vehicle for that, but sysctl > > covers more territory than SNMP does. > > SNMP covers "all that which can be examined or modified". Not in a way that is usable, in too many cases. It works for simple things, but for complicated and/or quickly changing things, it's way too complicated and resource hungry (mostly bandwidth) because the protocol is way too chatty. (And yes, I have real-world/commercial experience doing this, for my prior and present companies, over wireless links.) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 13 11:26:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5237737C55F for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:26:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id LAA28910; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:24:37 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda28906; Thu Jul 13 11:24:22 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA32792; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cwsys9.cwsent.com(10.2.2.1), claiming to be "cwsys.cwsent.com" via SMTP by passer9.cwsent.com, id smtpdH32788; Thu Jul 13 11:23:26 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cwsys.cwsent.com (8.10.2/8.9.1) id e6DINPm01487; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200007131823.e6DINPm01487@cwsys.cwsent.com> Received: from localhost.cwsent.com(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "cwsys" via SMTP by localhost.cwsent.com, id smtpdyN1481; Thu Jul 13 11:22:27 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE X-Sender: cy To: papowell@astart.com Cc: dcs@newsguy.com, drosih@rpi.edu, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:47:24 PDT." <200007131547.IAA08398@h4.private> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:22:27 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200007131547.IAA08398@h4.private>, papowell@astart.com writes: > > From drosih@rpi.edu Mon Jul 10 09:18:21 2000 > > Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:19:14 -0400 > > To: "Daniel C. Sobral" > > From: Garance A Drosihn > > Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues > > Cc: papowell@astart.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG > > > > In the message you replied to, I was again just asking for a better > > understanding of the licensing. Your comment (the part I quoted), > > states that the 'package in ports' is (and thus always will be) > > under Artistic/GPL license. I was just underlining that statement, > > to see if the implication of "always will be" is true. Ie, is it > > true that FreeBSD will NOT get a BSD+keep-copyright license for > > lprNG if we leave lprNG as a port? > > > > That is just a question. It is not an argument. > > You can keep the port. In fact, I will even supply a Makefile > and some other stuff for the port. In fact, if you look in the > LPRng-VERSION/DISTRIBUTIONS/FreeBSD directory you will even find > the necessary stuff to generate a port: > > cd LPRng-VERSION/DISTRIBUTIONS/FreeBSD-4.ports.systutils.LPRng > make portit > > and you will get a diff of the new version against the current one > in /usr/ports/sysutils/LPRng. Then create a wrapper similar to /usr/sbin/sendmail that calls the real lpr/lpd/lpc/etc based on a config file in /etc and set NO_LPR=true in make.conf. Making both lpr and LPRng as packages would be the best compromise. (Same could be said about Sendmail, BIND and nvi [I'm partial to vim]). A better idea would be to expand the sendmail wrapper to not only handle MTA's but most any application that could be replaced, making it a more generic wrapper. I realize that I am discussing implementation details when we haven't even decided whether to replace lpr or not, but this implementation detail may mean that we don't have to have an all-or-nothing approach and hopefully satisfy both camps. Call it compromise if you may or making whatever decision we make more palatable to all. This implementation detail may even reduce arguing about future issues like this one. Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/DEC Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 13 12:12:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from funkthat.com (adsl-63-195-54-213.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.195.54.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F16A37BDED for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:12:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gurney_j@efn.org) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by funkthat.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id MAA96302; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20000713121208.50527@hydrogen.funkthat.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:12:08 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Boris Popov Cc: Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SysctlFS References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: ; from Boris Popov on Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 08:17:30AM +0700 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Boris Popov scribbled this message on Jul 13: > On a side note: many things in the kernel can be represented (and > they are) as 'tree' structure. Nodes of that tree can have 'file' like [...] > /bus - newbus tree I think it's wrong to assume that this is a tree... I would like to see it move to a graph based structure... as we start off loading parts of processing, we will no longer have such an obvious nexus.. Each cpu should be the "root" of it's own tree... but that's just my view on the world.. :) -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 408 975 9651 Cu Networking "Thank God I'm an atheist, that'd just be confusing." -- cmc To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 13 13:49: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3F537C651; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:48:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@glue.umd.edu) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e6DKmqB01933; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:48:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA21043; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21039; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:48:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:48:52 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Ben Smithurst Cc: Brian Somers , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /etc/security -> /etc/periodic/security ? In-Reply-To: <20000713132845.C48641@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Ben Smithurst wrote: > Thanks. I took advantage of it to commit a question to the FAQ which > James (on the cc list) asked recently: "what is a repo-copy?", let > me know if it answers your question well enough. (it's in the misc > questions bit.) This is very nice. I understand the concept completely now. This is not too technical for a newbie and is quite nice. Now please place answers to the following questions in FAQ? What are fairings? Why does it matter what color the bikeshed is? What does non-reflexive? (Can you tell I read the follow question?:) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 13 17: 5:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay.eunet.no (mail-relay.eunet.no [193.71.71.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8008237B884; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:05:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (login-1.eunet.no [193.75.110.2]) by mail-relay.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.3/GN) with ESMTP id CAA23797; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:05:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA15365; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:05:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:05:36 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Brian Fundakowski Feldman , Sheldon Hearn , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Wes Peters , Warner Losh , Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Why don't section 4 pages live with their drivers? In-Reply-To: <20000712195813.B4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > All software that isn't done yet beats all other software. Yes. This is true. I shall refrain from making further comments about useful additions to our development base until these are already in place. Marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 13 17:19: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay.eunet.no (mail-relay.eunet.no [193.71.71.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6DC137BA93; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:18:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (login-1.eunet.no [193.75.110.2]) by mail-relay.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.3/GN) with ESMTP id CAA24299; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:18:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA15402; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:18:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:18:52 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Brian Fundakowski Feldman Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Why don't section 4 pages live with their drivers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Well, let me put it this way. Does it seem like a problem when we have > nowadays a huge amount of people who would add over a megabyte to the > repository and consider it a drop in the bucket, almost nothing? This > opinion that trying not to grow the repository will make it pretty hard, > IMHO, to keep the repository to a relatively reasonable size. Actually, I'd start having a look at the trigger-happy MFC operations going on lately before complaining any about the volume of the CVS repo. The average user will probably either stick with binaries, or use CVSup, without retaining history. > As for OVCS, that would be awesome; I don't recall Eivind having made > the offer to work on it full-time if paid, but if he did and BSDi would > fund it, it would result in a situation that was better for BSDi, > FreeBSD, Eivind (hopefully he'd want to work on it full time, right? :), > and the world at large (being free software). If he'd do contract work > on OVCS, I see a great oppurtunity here. I have no idea. I cannot, obviously, make a statement on his behalf. I'll only say that my personal guess is that he would be willing to finish this work on a contract basis, though I would guess he does not want any strings from OVCS to FreeBSD. Marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 13 23:35:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-51.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7DE437BDEC for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:35:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA00783; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:44:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200007140644.XAA00783@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: John-Mark Gurney Cc: Boris Popov , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:12:08 PDT." <20000713121208.50527@hydrogen.funkthat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:44:03 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > /bus - newbus tree > > I think it's wrong to assume that this is a tree... I would like to > see it move to a graph based structure... as we start off loading > parts of processing, we will no longer have such an obvious nexus.. I don't think it has anything to do with "offloading parts of processing", but if we ever end up running on a switched fabric architecture, parts of the bus hierarchy aren't going to look very tree-like. > Each cpu should be the "root" of it's own tree... but that's just my > view on the world.. :) And one that's hopelessly incompatible with the way things work, unfortunately -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 1:47:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3213237BAD3; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 01:47:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id WAA29614; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:37:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:37:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200007130537.WAA29614@apollo.backplane.com> To: Adrian Chadd Cc: Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS References: <20000712144510.A11316@ywing.creative.net.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :... :> to the names should still be retrieved in binary form, as they are :> exported via SYSCTL_* macros. But filesystem paradigm would allow us to :> reuse all the concepts for hierarchical name handling, traversal, :> permissions etc... The sysctlFS nodes would be probably read-only from :> userland, as I don't see much sense in userland programs renaming or :> removing them - they would be created, named and removed from :> kernel-land. But things like traversal and access would be simplified :> greatly. :> :> Any thoughts? : :I'm probably going to poke at it in a few weeks as an "example filesystem" :for some documentation I'm writing up. There are issues in having it as :a filesystem - see how /proc needs to be handled for jails right now. :I'm sure other people on the list can fill you in .. :) : : :Adrian : :-- :Adrian Chadd Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the : rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and I will point out that Linux puts system config variables in /proc and it has been an unmitigated disaster. Well, maybe not *that bad*, but it's fairly obvious to me that putting the config variables in a filesystem yields absolutely *NO* advantage over having a system call (and /sbin util) to do it. The current sysctl methodology works just dandy, we should not mess with it. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 2:14:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ywing.creative.net.au (ywing.creative.net.au [203.56.168.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F7B737BD15; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:14:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@ywing.creative.net.au) Received: (from adrian@localhost) by ywing.creative.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA20845; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:21:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from adrian) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:21:17 +0200 From: Adrian Chadd To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Adrian Chadd , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS Message-ID: <20000714112117.D17372@ywing.creative.net.au> References: <20000712144510.A11316@ywing.creative.net.au> <200007130537.WAA29614@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200007130537.WAA29614@apollo.backplane.com>; from dillon@apollo.backplane.com on Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 10:37:50PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jul 12, 2000, Matthew Dillon wrote: > > :... > :> to the names should still be retrieved in binary form, as they are > :> exported via SYSCTL_* macros. But filesystem paradigm would allow us to > :> reuse all the concepts for hierarchical name handling, traversal, > :> permissions etc... The sysctlFS nodes would be probably read-only from > :> userland, as I don't see much sense in userland programs renaming or > :> removing them - they would be created, named and removed from > :> kernel-land. But things like traversal and access would be simplified > :> greatly. > :> > :> Any thoughts? > : > :I'm probably going to poke at it in a few weeks as an "example filesystem" > :for some documentation I'm writing up. There are issues in having it as > :a filesystem - see how /proc needs to be handled for jails right now. > :I'm sure other people on the list can fill you in .. :) > : > : > :Adrian > : > :-- > :Adrian Chadd Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the > : rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and > > I will point out that Linux puts system config variables in /proc and > it has been an unmitigated disaster. Well, maybe not *that bad*, but > it's fairly obvious to me that putting the config variables in a > filesystem yields absolutely *NO* advantage over having a system call > (and /sbin util) to do it. > > The current sysctl methodology works just dandy, we should not mess with > it. Oh, I agree. Hence why I said I'd write it up as an "example filesystem" .. I'm tossing up a few candidates at the moment. -- Adrian Chadd Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 3:20:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C272D37B76F; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 03:20:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA97766; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:20:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Adrian Chadd Cc: Matthew Dillon , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS References: <20000712144510.A11316@ywing.creative.net.au> <200007130537.WAA29614@apollo.backplane.com> <20000714112117.D17372@ywing.creative.net.au> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Jul 2000 12:20:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: Adrian Chadd's message of "Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:21:17 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Adrian Chadd writes: > Oh, I agree. Hence why I said I'd write it up as an "example filesystem" .. > I'm tossing up a few candidates at the moment. Well, how about writing an exampl devfs? ;) I'm only half joking. Everyone seems to agree that we want (and need) devfs, but nobody seems to want to actually write it (yes, I know about the ownership / permissions problem, but don't you think someone would have solved it by now if they really wanted to?) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 3:36:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E62737C5CA; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 03:36:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.calldei.com) Received: from holly.calldei.com ([208.191.149.190]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FXO00MB7O5KH4@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net>; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 05:36:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA35623; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 05:35:41 -0500 (CDT envelope-from chris) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 05:35:41 -0500 From: Chris Costello Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-reply-to: To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Adrian Chadd , Matthew Dillon , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Message-id: <20000714053540.A30847@holly.calldei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i References: <20000712144510.A11316@ywing.creative.net.au> <200007130537.WAA29614@apollo.backplane.com> <20000714112117.D17372@ywing.creative.net.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, July 14, 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > I'm only half joking. Everyone seems to agree that we want (and need) > devfs, but nobody seems to want to actually write it (yes, I know > about the ownership / permissions problem, but don't you think someone > would have solved it by now if they really wanted to?) I can think of two implementations. 1. A devfsd, which uses some sort of routing socket/syscall/whatever and writes out permission changes to some file in /var/db. I heard this one from someone else but I can't think of who. 2. A mount argument specifying a file to store the permission info in. Same idea as #1, different approach. mount -t devfs /var/db/devfs.db /dev -- |Chris Costello |MOP AND GLOW - Floor wax used by Three Mile Island cleanup team. `---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 3:40: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ywing.creative.net.au (ywing.creative.net.au [203.56.168.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9BA637C7CF; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 03:39:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@ywing.creative.net.au) Received: (from adrian@localhost) by ywing.creative.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA21191; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:46:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from adrian) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:46:44 +0200 From: Adrian Chadd To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Adrian Chadd , Matthew Dillon , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS Message-ID: <20000714124644.E17372@ywing.creative.net.au> References: <20000712144510.A11316@ywing.creative.net.au> <200007130537.WAA29614@apollo.backplane.com> <20000714112117.D17372@ywing.creative.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 12:20:28PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jul 14, 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Adrian Chadd writes: > > Oh, I agree. Hence why I said I'd write it up as an "example filesystem" .. > > I'm tossing up a few candidates at the moment. > > Well, how about writing an exampl devfs? ;) > > I'm only half joking. Everyone seems to agree that we want (and need) > devfs, but nobody seems to want to actually write it (yes, I know > about the ownership / permissions problem, but don't you think someone > would have solved it by now if they really wanted to?) Well, as far as I can tell writing a devfs shouldn't be that hard to write, Handling stuff like replicating it between chroot/jails is a fun thing however. Maybe when I churn some docs out some enterprising soul will do it if it (still) hasnt been done. Adrian -- Adrian Chadd Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 3:41: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ywing.creative.net.au (ywing.creative.net.au [203.56.168.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E39D637C907; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 03:41:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@ywing.creative.net.au) Received: (from adrian@localhost) by ywing.creative.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA21220; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:48:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from adrian) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:48:05 +0200 From: Adrian Chadd To: Chris Costello Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Adrian Chadd , Matthew Dillon , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS Message-ID: <20000714124805.F17372@ywing.creative.net.au> References: <20000712144510.A11316@ywing.creative.net.au> <200007130537.WAA29614@apollo.backplane.com> <20000714112117.D17372@ywing.creative.net.au> <20000714053540.A30847@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000714053540.A30847@holly.calldei.com>; from chris@calldei.com on Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 05:35:41AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jul 14, 2000, Chris Costello wrote: > On Friday, July 14, 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > I'm only half joking. Everyone seems to agree that we want (and need) > > devfs, but nobody seems to want to actually write it (yes, I know > > about the ownership / permissions problem, but don't you think someone > > would have solved it by now if they really wanted to?) > > I can think of two implementations. > > 1. A devfsd, which uses some sort of routing socket/syscall/whatever > and writes out permission changes to some file in /var/db. > I heard this one from someone else but I can't think of who. > 2. A mount argument specifying a file to store the permission > info in. Same idea as #1, different approach. > > mount -t devfs /var/db/devfs.db /dev As I said in my previous email, persistence isn't the primary problem in my eyes. There are many ways people can handle it. What I see as being an interesting problem is handling devfs across multiple process/group namespaces (jail/chroot) without cluttering up your mount table. Adrian -- Adrian Chadd Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 3:43:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62C3E37C685; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 03:43:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.calldei.com) Received: from holly.calldei.com ([208.191.149.190]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FXO00MGROGJH4@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net>; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 05:43:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA35666; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 05:42:17 -0500 (CDT envelope-from chris) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 05:42:16 -0500 From: Chris Costello Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-reply-to: <20000714124805.F17372@ywing.creative.net.au> To: Adrian Chadd Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Matthew Dillon , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Message-id: <20000714054216.B30847@holly.calldei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i References: <20000712144510.A11316@ywing.creative.net.au> <200007130537.WAA29614@apollo.backplane.com> <20000714112117.D17372@ywing.creative.net.au> <20000714053540.A30847@holly.calldei.com> <20000714124805.F17372@ywing.creative.net.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, July 14, 2000, Adrian Chadd wrote: > As I said in my previous email, persistence isn't the primary problem > in my eyes. There are many ways people can handle it. What I see as being > an interesting problem is handling devfs across multiple process/group > namespaces (jail/chroot) without cluttering up your mount table. That's not a devfs problem, that's a general problem. The same problem exists for procfs and we already have that. :) -- |Chris Costello |women.tar.gz: A great program, but it doesn't come with documentation... `------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 3:43:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9EEE37C5A2; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 03:43:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 13D2wJ-000Gjp-00; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:43:27 +0200 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:43:27 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Chris Costello Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Adrian Chadd , Matthew Dillon , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS Message-ID: <20000714124327.A64283@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20000712144510.A11316@ywing.creative.net.au> <200007130537.WAA29614@apollo.backplane.com> <20000714112117.D17372@ywing.creative.net.au> <20000714053540.A30847@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000714053540.A30847@holly.calldei.com>; from chris@calldei.com on Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 05:35:41AM -0500 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri 2000-07-14 (05:35), Chris Costello wrote: > 1. A devfsd, which uses some sort of routing socket/syscall/whatever > and writes out permission changes to some file in /var/db. > I heard this one from someone else but I can't think of who. kqueue can do this (watching for permission changes) easily. It can also get notified when a new file appears - either from the kernel, or from watching the directory. I'm not sure whether it should automatically change permissions in the database when someone changes permission in /dev. I'd rather it only change permissions when someone tells it to, through some sort of configuration file. In that case, it should probably be an easily-scriptable simple-to-manually-change text file. (The first person to say XML gets to try to motivate the importation of a BSD-licensed good XML parser into the base system.) Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 3:54:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D328D37BE0F; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 03:54:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.calldei.com) Received: from holly.calldei.com ([208.191.149.190]) by mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FXO000W6OXQSB@mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net>; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 05:53:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA35727; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 05:53:12 -0500 (CDT envelope-from chris) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 05:53:11 -0500 From: Chris Costello Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-reply-to: <20000714124327.A64283@mithrandr.moria.org> To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Adrian Chadd , Matthew Dillon , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Message-id: <20000714055311.C30847@holly.calldei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i References: <20000712144510.A11316@ywing.creative.net.au> <200007130537.WAA29614@apollo.backplane.com> <20000714112117.D17372@ywing.creative.net.au> <20000714053540.A30847@holly.calldei.com> <20000714124327.A64283@mithrandr.moria.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, July 14, 2000, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > kqueue can do this (watching for permission changes) easily. It can > also get notified when a new file appears - either from the kernel, or > from watching the directory. Does kqueue return full information on files when they're updated or when files are added? Or do you need to read in the whole /dev directory each time a directory update event is received? > I'm not sure whether it should automatically change permissions in the > database when someone changes permission in /dev. I'd rather it only > change permissions when someone tells it to, through some sort of > configuration file. The command used to "tell it to change permissions" is chmod. Devfs is supposed to work like a file system, not like a user level application. If I chmod 0600 /dev/null and reboot without issuing some odd 'syncdevfs' command, I want to be the only one who can write to the bitbucket when the system comes back up. > In that case, it should probably be an easily-scriptable > simple-to-manually-change text file. (The first person to say XML > gets to try to motivate the importation of a BSD-licensed good XML ^^^^^^^ Is required to. > parser into the base system.) -- |Chris Costello |Your fault, core dumped. `---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 4:32: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ywing.creative.net.au (ywing.creative.net.au [203.56.168.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51EE437BE0F; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 04:32:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@ywing.creative.net.au) Received: (from adrian@localhost) by ywing.creative.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA21429; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:39:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from adrian) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:39:14 +0200 From: Adrian Chadd To: Chris Costello Cc: Adrian Chadd , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Matthew Dillon , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS Message-ID: <20000714133914.G17372@ywing.creative.net.au> References: <20000712144510.A11316@ywing.creative.net.au> <200007130537.WAA29614@apollo.backplane.com> <20000714112117.D17372@ywing.creative.net.au> <20000714053540.A30847@holly.calldei.com> <20000714124805.F17372@ywing.creative.net.au> <20000714054216.B30847@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000714054216.B30847@holly.calldei.com>; from chris@calldei.com on Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 05:42:16AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jul 14, 2000, Chris Costello wrote: > On Friday, July 14, 2000, Adrian Chadd wrote: > > As I said in my previous email, persistence isn't the primary problem > > in my eyes. There are many ways people can handle it. What I see as being > > an interesting problem is handling devfs across multiple process/group > > namespaces (jail/chroot) without cluttering up your mount table. > > That's not a devfs problem, that's a general problem. The > same problem exists for procfs and we already have that. :) Well, my mind is occupied by actually documenting stuff. ;) Adrian -- Adrian Chadd Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 9:15:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7253637C8B5; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:15:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA41521; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:20:35 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:20:35 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Chris Costello Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Adrian Chadd , Matthew Dillon , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS Message-ID: <20000714112035.C12492@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <20000712144510.A11316@ywing.creative.net.au> <200007130537.WAA29614@apollo.backplane.com> <20000714112117.D17372@ywing.creative.net.au> <20000714053540.A30847@holly.calldei.com> <20000714124327.A64283@mithrandr.moria.org> <20000714055311.C30847@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000714055311.C30847@holly.calldei.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 05:53:11AM -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > On Friday, July 14, 2000, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > > kqueue can do this (watching for permission changes) easily. It can > > also get notified when a new file appears - either from the kernel, or > > from watching the directory. > > Does kqueue return full information on files when they're > updated or when files are added? Or do you need to read in the > whole /dev directory each time a directory update event is > received? Right now, there is only a filter for the FFS filesystem, and due to its semantics, when an inode is changed, we don't know what pathname was used to reference the inode. However, if a filter was written for a devfs, there is no reason that it can't behave differently in this case; presumably it would be easier to map a dev_t back into a canonical name, since the implementation would not be the same as FFS. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 10:51:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.integratus.com (miami.integratus.com [63.209.2.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D0D2A37BDFE for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 10:51:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jar@integratus.com) Received: (qmail 17943 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2000 17:51:27 -0000 Received: from kungfu.integratus.com (HELO integratus.com) (172.20.5.168) by tortuga1.integratus.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2000 17:51:27 -0000 Message-ID: <396F531F.BBE0D54E@integratus.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 10:51:27 -0700 From: Jack Rusher Organization: Integratus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: Chris Costello , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Adrian Chadd , Matthew Dillon , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS References: <20000712144510.A11316@ywing.creative.net.au> <200007130537.WAA29614@apollo.backplane.com> <20000714112117.D17372@ywing.creative.net.au> <20000714053540.A30847@holly.calldei.com> <20000714124327.A64283@mithrandr.moria.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > > easily-scriptable simple-to-manually-change text file. (The first > person to say XML gets to try to motivate the importation of a > BSD-licensed good XML parser into the base system.) Hey! Let's try to import a good BSD license XML parser into the tree! Was that motivational enough? Seriously, I'll go looking for something like this. It would be awfully nice if we started to work towards a common parser for all configuration files, package files, etc, etc. XML seems like the right answer for this. Does anyone know of a good starting point for this (i.e. a BSD license XML parser library), or is there enough interest to make it worthwhile to write one in a clean room? Thanks, -- Jack Rusher, Senior Engineer | mailto:jar@integratus.com Integratus, Inc. | http://www.integratus.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 10:55:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay.eunet.no (mail-relay.eunet.no [193.71.71.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0694E37B666; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 10:55:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (login-1.eunet.no [193.75.110.2]) by mail-relay.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.3/GN) with ESMTP id TAA24518; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:55:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20321; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:55:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:55:31 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Chris Costello Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Adrian Chadd , Matthew Dillon , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-Reply-To: <20000714053540.A30847@holly.calldei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > 1. A devfsd, which uses some sort of routing socket/syscall/whatever > and writes out permission changes to some file in /var/db. > I heard this one from someone else but I can't think of who. > 2. A mount argument specifying a file to store the permission > info in. Same idea as #1, different approach. > > mount -t devfs /var/db/devfs.db /dev Actually, I think you could probably integrate such a devfs into an existing fs, with some work... Marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 14:45:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25A6137BC11; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:45:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA67077; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:45:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA39245; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:45:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200007142145.PAA39245@harmony.village.org> To: Adrian Chadd Subject: Re: SysctlFS Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:48:05 +0200." <20000714124805.F17372@ywing.creative.net.au> References: <20000714124805.F17372@ywing.creative.net.au> <20000712144510.A11316@ywing.creative.net.au> <200007130537.WAA29614@apollo.backplane.com> <20000714112117.D17372@ywing.creative.net.au> <20000714053540.A30847@holly.calldei.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:45:31 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000714124805.F17372@ywing.creative.net.au> Adrian Chadd writes: : As I said in my previous email, persistence isn't the primary problem : in my eyes. There are many ways people can handle it. What I see as being : an interesting problem is handling devfs across multiple process/group : namespaces (jail/chroot) without cluttering up your mount table. Yes. Another issue is the new hot plug devices. It is highly desirable to allow arbitrary commands to run when they come and go. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 14:54:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from astart2.astart.com (astart2.astart.com [206.71.174.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2280437BB98; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:54:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from papowell@astart.com) Received: from h4.private (papowell@h4.private [10.0.0.4]) by astart2.astart.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29365; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from papowell@localhost) by h4.private (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA24521; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:54:16 -0700 (PDT) From: papowell@astart.com Message-Id: <200007142154.OAA24521@h4.private> To: darren@nighttide.net, nbm@mithrandr.moria.org Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, papowell@astart.com Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > From nbm@sunesi.net Tue Jul 11 07:04:02 2000 > Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:03:32 +0200 > From: Neil Blakey-Milner > To: Darren Henderson > Cc: "David O'Brien" , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, > papowell@astart.com > Subject: Re: Bringing LPRng into FreeBSD? - License Issues > > On Tue 2000-07-11 (09:45), Darren Henderson wrote: > > I can understand that and even sympathize with the idea. However, adding > > software to the standard distribution that doesn't share the same license > > of most of that distribution is a bad thing. What a pain it would be if > > there were dozens of slight BSD license variations. > > There are dozens of slight BSD license variations already. Not to > mention Beerware, Artistic, GPL, Less License, not to mention > dual-licenses, and other weirdness. > > I've mailed Patrick privately to suggest the variation be slightly > adjusted such that, like the Artistic license, only if the software > _claims_ to be LPRng, shall it require the change. This is EXACTLY what I wanted to do. > > If you're on an embedded platform or one-box solution, noone is going to > say 'lpc -V', and if you say 'LPRng inside!', you need simply qualify it > by saying "With local modifications for this platform". If you're on a > commercial off-shoot of FreeBSD, you can either use it verbatim, or make > local changes, and qualify it simply be 'With local modifications for > FooBSD' in lpc -V. If you're using the code for something that isn't > LPRng, you needn't do anything, and can subsequently use the code under > a standard two-clause BSD license. > > I assume that's sufficient for everyone? Are you amenable to this, > Patrick? Yes. But you might find the wording for the license issues a bit mind boggling. I might add that asking the legal vultures (low class eagles) has cost me $200 and two lunches so far. > > Neil > -- > Neil Blakey-Milner > Sunesi Clinical Systems > nbm@mithrandr.moria.org > Patrick Powell Astart Technologies, papowell@astart.com 9475 Chesapeake Drive, Suite D, Network and System San Diego, CA 92123 Consulting 858-874-6543 FAX 858-279-8424 LPRng - Print Spooler (http://www.astart.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 15: 0:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B79637BE9A; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:00:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (InterJet.elischer.org [192.168.1.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA59339; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:00:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:00:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: Warner Losh Cc: Adrian Chadd , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-Reply-To: <200007142145.PAA39245@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <20000714124805.F17372@ywing.creative.net.au> Adrian Chadd writes: > : As I said in my previous email, persistence isn't the primary problem > : in my eyes. There are many ways people can handle it. What I see as being > : an interesting problem is handling devfs across multiple process/group > : namespaces (jail/chroot) without cluttering up your mount table. > > Yes. Another issue is the new hot plug devices. It is highly > desirable to allow arbitrary commands to run when they come and go. > I have some solutions for both problems.. At least for the devfs in jail problems.. in particular a variant on a symbolic link which is interpretted as a symlink into /dev this would allow many /devs to exist without many mounted filesystems in each jail > Warner > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 15: 6:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (heartofgold.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB42537B734; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:06:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA02447; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:06:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Julian Elischer Cc: Warner Losh , Adrian Chadd , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:00:36 PDT." Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:06:01 +0200 Message-ID: <2445.963612361@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , J ulian Elischer writes: >I have some solutions for both problems.. >At least for the devfs in jail problems.. > >in particular a variant on a symbolic link which is interpretted >as a symlink into /dev this would allow many /devs to exist >without many mounted filesystems in each jail Yeah, I remember this one Julian, but how do we handle a cloning driver like pty ? (which is about the only think in /dev in a jail which matters btw :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 15: 8:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dan.emsphone.com (dan.emsphone.com [199.67.51.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C750437B8D2; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:08:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by dan.emsphone.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA21669; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:08:25 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dan) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:08:25 -0500 From: Dan Nelson To: Julian Elischer Cc: Warner Losh , Adrian Chadd , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS Message-ID: <20000714170824.A21158@dan.emsphone.com> References: <200007142145.PAA39245@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.5i In-Reply-To: ; from "Julian Elischer" on Fri Jul 14 15:00:36 GMT 2000 X-OS: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In the last episode (Jul 14), Julian Elischer said: > On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > > In message <20000714124805.F17372@ywing.creative.net.au> Adrian Chadd writes: > >: As I said in my previous email, persistence isn't the primary > >: problem in my eyes. There are many ways people can handle it. What > >: I see as being an interesting problem is handling devfs across > >: multiple process/group namespaces (jail/chroot) without cluttering > >: up your mount table. > > > > Yes. Another issue is the new hot plug devices. It is highly > > desirable to allow arbitrary commands to run when they come and go. > > I have some solutions for both problems.. > At least for the devfs in jail problems.. > > in particular a variant on a symbolic link which is interpretted as a > symlink into /dev this would allow many /devs to exist without many > mounted filesystems in each jail Would it be possible to have a symbolic link type that breaks out of a jail? So you would have a "/myjail/dev ->> /dev" link in the jail that ends up referring to the real /dev. This would also fix the /proc problem. You wouldn't want to link /myjail/usr/lib to /usr/lib, though, because the jailed root would be able to modify the binaries, but /dev and /proc seem safe. -- Dan Nelson dnelson@emsphone.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 15:12:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 003F537BEC6; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:12:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (InterJet.elischer.org [192.168.1.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA59395; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:12:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: Dan Nelson Cc: Warner Losh , Adrian Chadd , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-Reply-To: <20000714170824.A21158@dan.emsphone.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Dan Nelson wrote: > In the last episode (Jul 14), Julian Elischer said: > > On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > > > In message <20000714124805.F17372@ywing.creative.net.au> Adrian Chadd writes: > > >: As I said in my previous email, persistence isn't the primary > > >: problem in my eyes. There are many ways people can handle it. What > > >: I see as being an interesting problem is handling devfs across > > >: multiple process/group namespaces (jail/chroot) without cluttering > > >: up your mount table. > > > > > > Yes. Another issue is the new hot plug devices. It is highly > > > desirable to allow arbitrary commands to run when they come and go. > > > > I have some solutions for both problems.. > > At least for the devfs in jail problems.. > > > > in particular a variant on a symbolic link which is interpretted as a > > symlink into /dev this would allow many /devs to exist without many > > mounted filesystems in each jail > > Would it be possible to have a symbolic link type that breaks out of a > jail? So you would have a "/myjail/dev ->> /dev" link in the jail that > ends up referring to the real /dev. This would also fix the /proc > problem. You wouldn't want to link /myjail/usr/lib to /usr/lib, > though, because the jailed root would be able to modify the binaries, > but /dev and /proc seem safe. > basically that was the idea.. but you could only set it if you were root and not in a jail. > -- > Dan Nelson > dnelson@emsphone.com > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 16:26:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.integratus.com (miami.integratus.com [63.209.2.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B5AF237C081 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:26:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jar@integratus.com) Received: (qmail 22483 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2000 23:26:44 -0000 Received: from kungfu.integratus.com (HELO integratus.com) (172.20.5.168) by tortuga1.integratus.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2000 23:26:44 -0000 Message-ID: <396FA1B4.F8CC37C6@integratus.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:26:44 -0700 From: Jack Rusher Organization: Integratus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Elischer Cc: Warner Losh , Adrian Chadd , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Julian Elischer wrote: > > At least for the devfs in jail problems.. > > in particular a variant on a symbolic link which is interpretted > as a symlink into /dev this would allow many /devs to exist > without many mounted filesystems in each jail This sounds like Solaris using /devices to provide a tree view of the hardware (lucky them, they have open firmware to make this job easier) and /dev to provide the traditional UNIX interface through links to /devices. Is it safe to have the links transcend the jail? It seems like that would require careful contemplation. It does seem like a good idea to be able to support boot -r (reconfigure) and the fairly beautiful ddi_* routines that are available in Solaris. -- Jack Rusher, Senior Engineer | mailto:jar@integratus.com Integratus, Inc. | http://www.integratus.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 16:51: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 389ED37BF60 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:51:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e6ENp5u20761 for arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:51:05 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: I'm fixing the build/install kernel target Message-ID: <20000714165105.O25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The default will no longer be GENERIC. Having that default makes it way too easy to shoot yourself in the foot, it will be manditory to specify a KERNEL=. The install target will be corrected to behave the same way that the old install target from the kernel build directory does. That means it will do the kernel->kernel.old and install over /kernel. The current way makes it overly complex and error prone. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 17:22:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9CD337B5B9; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:22:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e6F0MoW21523; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:22:50 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: marcel@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm fixing the build/install kernel target Message-ID: <20000714172250.P25571@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000714165105.O25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000714165105.O25571@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 04:51:05PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Alfred Perlstein [000714 16:51] wrote: > The default will no longer be GENERIC. Having that default makes it > way too easy to shoot yourself in the foot, it will be manditory to > specify a KERNEL=. > > The install target will be corrected to behave the same way that > the old install target from the kernel build directory does. That > means it will do the kernel->kernel.old and install over /kernel. > The current way makes it overly complex and error prone. Actually, I retract this, I'm leaving it broken and raising an exception about how it's killing our newbies and suprising a lot of our users. Marcel, I'd appreciate you investigating fixing this. The above fix could be done or several other options can be taken: 1) "GENERIC" -> "kernel", that way the default works 2) echo >> kernel="GENERIC" >> /boot/loader.conf # fix the /kernel thing to be /GENERIC in the installer 3) make a simplfied target that does the right thing (installing /kernel) rename the buildkernel and installkernel to something else replacing them with the simplified target. 4) the original suggestion: if the KERNEL var isn't set then bomb out, so the install to /kernel. I like the 3 and 4, but 1 2 are pretty acceptable. Making configuring a kernel more complex and error prone should have never happened. thanks, -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 17:36:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 154B237B90B; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:36:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from semuta.feral.com (semuta [192.67.166.70]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17170; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:36:27 -0700 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:34:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, marcel@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm fixing the build/install kernel target In-Reply-To: <20000714172250.P25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Making configuring a kernel more complex and error prone should > have never happened. I'm not sure that this is a fixable problem, ultimately. We're already *so* much better than what joe users do to themselves with the Registry on Windoze that I think that valuable developer cycles could be better spent elsewhere than worrying about kernel updates. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 17:45:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mimer.webgiro.com (mimer.webgiro.com [212.209.29.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9182B37B9CD for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:45:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by mimer.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id 2C5F32DC0A; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 02:50:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B52307817; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 02:43:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B047610E17; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 02:43:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 02:43:01 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: Jack Rusher Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-Reply-To: <396F531F.BBE0D54E@integratus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Jack Rusher wrote: > Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > > > > easily-scriptable simple-to-manually-change text file. (The first > > person to say XML gets to try to motivate the importation of a > > BSD-licensed good XML parser into the base system.) > > Hey! Let's try to import a good BSD license XML parser into the tree! > > Was that motivational enough? Seriously, I'll go looking for > something like this. It would be awfully nice if we started to work > towards a common parser for all configuration files, package files, etc, > etc. XML seems like the right answer for this. > > Does anyone know of a good starting point for this (i.e. a BSD license > XML parser library), or is there enough interest to make it worthwhile > to write one in a clean room? I don't know of any, but there are a few simple Java parsers that could be ported to C. The simplest of them is probably MiniML (look at freshmeat appindex). The most complex and bulky is Apache Xerces-C, so I wouldn't recommend it.. :-) Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 17:56:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8230137C62F; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:56:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e6F0uLM22332; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:56:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:56:21 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Matthew Jacob Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, marcel@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm fixing the build/install kernel target Message-ID: <20000714175620.R25571@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000714172250.P25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from mjacob@feral.com on Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 05:34:14PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Matthew Jacob [000714 17:36] wrote: > > > > Making configuring a kernel more complex and error prone should > > have never happened. > > I'm not sure that this is a fixable problem, ultimately. We're already *so* > much better than what joe users do to themselves with the Registry on Windoze > that I think that valuable developer cycles could be better spent elsewhere > than worrying about kernel updates. Being better than Windows isn't really aiming that high now is it? -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 18: 7:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9CA037BFAA for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:07:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcel@cup.hp.com) Received: from adlmail.cup.hp.com (adlmail.cup.hp.com [15.0.100.30]) by palrel1.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 981091339; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cup.hp.com (gauss.cup.hp.com [15.28.97.152]) by adlmail.cup.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.9.3 SMKit7.02) with ESMTP id SAA06158; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <396FB953.D8A9AF2F@cup.hp.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:07:31 -0700 From: Marcel Moolenaar Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm fixing the build/install kernel target References: <20000714165105.O25571@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000714172250.P25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > * Alfred Perlstein [000714 16:51] wrote: > > The default will no longer be GENERIC. Having that default makes it > > way too easy to shoot yourself in the foot, it will be manditory to > > specify a KERNEL=. > > > > The install target will be corrected to behave the same way that > > the old install target from the kernel build directory does. That > > means it will do the kernel->kernel.old and install over /kernel. > > The current way makes it overly complex and error prone. > > Actually, I retract this, I'm leaving it broken and raising an > exception about how it's killing our newbies and suprising a lot > of our users. The original design of the installtarget did exactly that. It has been modified later. The rationale being that it would be good to be able to install multiple kernels. This of course implies that you need different names. So, the real question is: "Do we want to be able to install multiple kernels (with their modules)"? If the answer is no, then we name the kernel "kernel". Otherwise we need to have a naming convention, keeping in mind that the boot loader now defaults to "kernel"... > Making configuring a kernel more complex and error prone should > have never happened. It's not more complex and it's also not more error prone. It's differently complex and differently error prone :-) -- Marcel Moolenaar mail: marcel@cup.hp.com / marcel@FreeBSD.org tel: (408) 447-4222 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 18: 7:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8744A37BA91; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:07:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from semuta.feral.com (semuta [192.67.166.70]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17267; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:07:40 -0700 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:05:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, marcel@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm fixing the build/install kernel target In-Reply-To: <20000714175620.R25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Being better than Windows isn't really aiming that high now is it? That's not the point. The point here is about what sophistication we expect from users. The slightly more sophisticated then average windows user will dork with their registry and leave their system in an unusable state. This also include users who, on installing new versions of not so bright software that does this for them, have to do a forklift upgrade afterwards. Most Windoze users have come to expect this "every system knob ties directly to 3 pound of plastique!" way of doing business. *BSD, like Unix has always been, is still a shipped toolkit, but unlike 10 years ago we expect these systems to be usable after install for nearly all user environments. That is, a kernel reconfiguration should rarely be required. If it is required, the steps are fairly straightforward to do so, but the assumption still is that the users are smart enough to know which end of a sabre saw to grab- there are very, very, few violations of the Principle of Least Surprise here. I don't see much utility in spending a lot of cycles come up with child safety locks in this area. If you feel that kernel reconfiguration is a must for the novice user (the one who might get bit by not paying attention to overwriting a bootable kernel, i.e., not using the current 'make install', which will most certainly leave you with a bootable kernel/modules set if the new one is wrong), then instead of making this process super safe, I suggest that the install tools are a better place to do this. We should then take the approach that, say, Tru64 takes, and reconfig and rebuild a kernel specific for a user's configuration as part of the install process. -matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 20: 8:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dt052n3e.san.rr.com (dt052n3e.san.rr.com [204.210.33.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB3837B58E for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 20:08:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt052n3e.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA38954; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 20:08:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 20:08:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt052n3e.san.rr.com To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm fixing the build/install kernel target In-Reply-To: <20000714165105.O25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I think grog and others have raised some interesting points regarding what the defaults should be. IMO, 'make buildkernel' should emulate the following steps from the current process: config KERNELNAME cd ../../compile/KERNELNAME make depend make Then 'make installkernel' should do exactly what 'make install' does now, including renaming to (whatever the actual name of is). It should do the magic in /usr/obj instead of /usr/src (allowing a total RO /usr/src) and ideally not require a complete set of sources, unless there is a dependency like the binutils boundary. By following this strategy, we can tell our users ALWAYS use the new targets, and totally deprecate the old method. This will buy us several things. First off, it will help alleviate the hellacious confusion that's being caused now by "when do I _really_ need to use the new targets????" in -stable. It also will buy us a lot more flexibility in changing the magic behind the scenes while allowing us to present a consistent UI to our users. I would suggest the following for handling options. There should be a "-DCLEAN" (or whatever) knob for doing what config -r does now. The kernel config file can be specified in /etc/make.conf, with the command line overriding it. The default kernel name should be kernel, with the ability to override it with makeoptions in the config file, and on the command line. I would also suggest splitting the KERNEL define into KERNELNAME and KERNELCONFIG, to allow for maximum flexibility. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=17698 also has some interesting ideas on how to handle buildling multiple kernels with the same "buildkernel" command. Marcel is currently looking into this. HTH, Doug -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jul 14 21: 4:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C5E037B65A; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:04:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA05426; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:04:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:04:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Dan Nelson Cc: Julian Elischer , Warner Losh , Adrian Chadd , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-Reply-To: <20000714170824.A21158@dan.emsphone.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Dan Nelson wrote: > Would it be possible to have a symbolic link type that breaks out of a > jail? So you would have a "/myjail/dev ->> /dev" link in the jail that > ends up referring to the real /dev. This would also fix the /proc > problem. You wouldn't want to link /myjail/usr/lib to /usr/lib, > though, because the jailed root would be able to modify the binaries, > but /dev and /proc seem safe. The real problem is determining what the symlink would be relative to. When performing a name-lookup for a process, there are two possible starting vnodes -- the process's root vnode (paths prefixed with /), and the process's cwd vnode (w/o a / at the beginning). Symlinks restart evaluation, and if prefixed with a "/", restart at the process's root vnode. If you had one of these "magic" symlinks, how would it know what vnode to start evaluating from? Especially in diskless nested environments mounted out of an MFS root during boot, there is no one true root. You could imagine a light-weight mountpoint technique based on a special form of symlink, where the mountpoint is stared in the file system, instead of in the kernel mount table. When such a symlink was hit, it would be auto-followed. This is a lot like the behavior in Coda and AFS, where mountpoints are actually symlinks to #volumename, only in that environment, the protection model is compatible with that. You could imagine symlinks to specific synthetic file systems, including #system.procfs and #system.sysctlfs. When hit during a namei, it could either be turned into a real vnode mountpoint, or follow into a special table namespace. Of course, unless protected appropriately, this would create new risks as you chouldn't prevent a jail from accessing /proc. A light-weight mount mechanism might make a lot of sense, though, especially if based on a volume mechanism. Robert N M Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 2: 9:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gateway.posi.net (c1096725-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com [24.20.139.104]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6CC237BACB; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 02:09:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kbyanc@posi.net) Received: from localhost (kbyanc@localhost) by gateway.posi.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA02202; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 02:10:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kbyanc@posi.net) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 02:10:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Yancey To: Robert Watson Cc: Dan Nelson , Julian Elischer , Warner Losh , Adrian Chadd , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Robert Watson wrote: > On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Dan Nelson wrote: > > > Would it be possible to have a symbolic link type that breaks out of a > > jail? So you would have a "/myjail/dev ->> /dev" link in the jail that > > ends up referring to the real /dev. This would also fix the /proc > > problem. You wouldn't want to link /myjail/usr/lib to /usr/lib, > > though, because the jailed root would be able to modify the binaries, > > but /dev and /proc seem safe. > > [ snip ] > > You could imagine a light-weight mountpoint technique based on a special > form of symlink, where the mountpoint is stared in the file system, > instead of in the kernel mount table. When such a symlink was hit, it > would be auto-followed. This is a lot like the behavior in Coda and AFS, > where mountpoints are actually symlinks to #volumename, only in that > environment, the protection model is compatible with that. You could > imagine symlinks to specific synthetic file systems, including > #system.procfs and #system.sysctlfs. When hit during a namei, it could > either be turned into a real vnode mountpoint, or follow into a special > table namespace. > > [ snip ] Maybe I am missing something obvious, but wouldn't a mount option to automatically export a given filesystem to all jails do the trick? Fundamental filesystems like procfs and devfs would typically be mounted with the option, while others were left to per-jail individual mounts. That is, of course, assuming we had room for more MNT_* flags. Kelly -- Kelly Yancey - kbyanc@posi.net - Belmont, CA System Administrator, eGroups.com http://www.egroups.com/ Maintainer, BSD Driver Database http://www.posi.net/freebsd/drivers/ Coordinator, Team FreeBSD http://www.posi.net/freebsd/Team-FreeBSD/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 2:50:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.interware.hu (mail.interware.hu [195.70.32.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E42B37B5C3; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 02:50:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from bissau-16.budapest.interware.hu ([195.70.53.144] helo=jules.elischer.org) by mail.interware.hu with smtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 13DOaY-0000rQ-00; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:50:27 +0200 Message-ID: <397033CE.446B9B3D@elischer.org> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 02:50:06 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson Cc: Dan Nelson , Warner Losh , Adrian Chadd , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Robert Watson wrote: > > > The real problem is determining what the symlink would be relative to. > When performing a name-lookup for a process, there are two possible > starting vnodes -- the process's root vnode (paths prefixed with /), and > the process's cwd vnode (w/o a / at the beginning). Symlinks restart > evaluation, and if prefixed with a "/", restart at the process's root > vnode. If you had one of these "magic" symlinks, how would it know what > vnode to start evaluating from? Especially in diskless nested > environments mounted out of an MFS root during boot, there is no one true > root. These MAGIC symlinks are in fact cdevs inodes, not symlink inodes, with -1, -1 major minor, and the rest of the inode pointer space holding a symlink-like string. The string is ALWAYS interpretted as being based from the base of the device filesystem. In other words. it's a cdev, with normal permissions and ownerships etc., but instead of a major number and minor number, the connection to the driver is specified by the string. All old kernels would see an invalid cdev and return ENODEV. All rules that apply to making current CDEVS apply to these. > > You could imagine a light-weight mountpoint technique based on a special > form of symlink, where the mountpoint is stared in the file system, > instead of in the kernel mount table. When such a symlink was hit, it > would be auto-followed. This is a lot like the behavior in Coda and AFS, > where mountpoints are actually symlinks to #volumename, only in that > environment, the protection model is compatible with that. You could > imagine symlinks to specific synthetic file systems, including > #system.procfs and #system.sysctlfs. When hit during a namei, it could > either be turned into a real vnode mountpoint, or follow into a special > table namespace. > > Of course, unless protected appropriately, this would create new risks as > you chouldn't prevent a jail from accessing /proc. > > A light-weight mount mechanism might make a lot of sense, though, > especially if based on a volume mechanism. > > Robert N M Watson > > robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ > PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 > TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services -- __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000 ;_.---._/ presently in: Budapest v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 2:55:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.interware.hu (mail.interware.hu [195.70.32.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C235D37B796; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 02:55:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from bissau-16.budapest.interware.hu ([195.70.53.144] helo=jules.elischer.org) by mail.interware.hu with smtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 13DOf3-0000vw-00; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:55:05 +0200 Message-ID: <397034E4.794BDF32@elischer.org> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 02:54:44 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kelly Yancey Cc: Robert Watson , Dan Nelson , Warner Losh , Adrian Chadd , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kelly Yancey wrote: > > On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Robert Watson wrote: > > > Maybe I am missing something obvious, but wouldn't a mount option to > automatically export a given filesystem to all jails do the trick? Fundamental > filesystems like procfs and devfs would typically be mounted with the option, > while others were left to per-jail individual mounts. > That is, of course, assuming we had room for more MNT_* flags. jails are not 'mounted so there is no specific 'moment' when you should 'make your automatic mounts. anyhow you may have 1000 jails set up on your filesystems do you want to see 2000 filesystems in your mount list? -- __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000 ;_.---._/ presently in: Budapest v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 4: 3: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.du.gtn.com (mail.du.gtn.com [194.77.9.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8427C37B8F9; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 04:02:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ticso@cicely8.cicely.de) Received: from mail.cicely.de (cicely.de [194.231.9.142]) by mail.du.gtn.com (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id e6FB2d304629 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified OK); Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:02:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from cicely8.cicely.de (cicely8.cicely.de [10.1.2.10]) by mail.cicely.de (8.11.0.Beta1/8.11.0.Beta1) with ESMTP id e6FB21m27792; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:02:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely8.cicely.de (8.9.3/8.9.2) id NAA13064; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:01:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:01:56 +0200 From: Bernd Walter To: Chris Costello Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Adrian Chadd , Matthew Dillon , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS Message-ID: <20000715130156.B12982@cicely8.cicely.de> References: <20000712144510.A11316@ywing.creative.net.au> <200007130537.WAA29614@apollo.backplane.com> <20000714112117.D17372@ywing.creative.net.au> <20000714053540.A30847@holly.calldei.com> <20000714124327.A64283@mithrandr.moria.org> <20000714055311.C30847@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000714055311.C30847@holly.calldei.com>; from chris@calldei.com on Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 05:53:11AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 05:53:11AM -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > > The command used to "tell it to change permissions" is chmod. > Devfs is supposed to work like a file system, not like a user > level application. If I chmod 0600 /dev/null and reboot without > issuing some odd 'syncdevfs' command, I want to be the only one > who can write to the bitbucket when the system comes back up. > Do you really want this or is it OK to have default permissions in singleuser mode and having this restored while going multiuser? -- B.Walter COSMO-Project http://www.cosmo-project.de ticso@cicely.de Usergroup info@cosmo-project.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 4:59:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ywing.creative.net.au (ywing.creative.net.au [203.56.168.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95BEB37B5FF; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 04:59:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@ywing.creative.net.au) Received: (from adrian@localhost) by ywing.creative.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA27302; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:06:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from adrian) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:06:14 +0200 From: Adrian Chadd To: Julian Elischer Cc: Kelly Yancey , Robert Watson , Dan Nelson , Warner Losh , Adrian Chadd , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS Message-ID: <20000715140614.A22865@ywing.creative.net.au> References: <397034E4.794BDF32@elischer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <397034E4.794BDF32@elischer.org>; from julian@elischer.org on Sat, Jul 15, 2000 at 02:54:44AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jul 15, 2000, Julian Elischer wrote: > Kelly Yancey wrote: > > > > On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Robert Watson wrote: > > > > > > > Maybe I am missing something obvious, but wouldn't a mount option to > > automatically export a given filesystem to all jails do the trick? Fundamental > > filesystems like procfs and devfs would typically be mounted with the option, > > while others were left to per-jail individual mounts. > > That is, of course, assuming we had room for more MNT_* flags. > > > jails are not 'mounted so there is no specific 'moment' > when you should 'make your automatic mounts. > anyhow you may have 1000 jails set up on your filesystems > do you want to see 2000 filesystems in your mount list? Ok, Whilst trudging through the vfs and various filesystem codes, it seems to me that things like procfs/devfs which are needed inside a jail/chroot environment can be handled with *drumroll* a stacking layer of sorts. This type of stacking layer would be a nullfs layer of sorts, except that it is an implicit mount rather than an explicit mount. That way, all processes which talk to say, /dev, would go through this layer which pretty much does a nullfs thing and doesn't require you to have a devfs/ procfs/kernfs/[/usr/lib]/ mounted everywhere. Ok, so it has shades of plan9. I didn't want to rant because right now I have absolutely 0.00% code to demonstrate my idea, but I thought I might as well throw it into the works. Adrian -- Adrian Chadd Build a man a fire, and he's warm for the rest of the evening. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 10:42:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay.eunet.no (mail-relay.eunet.no [193.71.71.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91BB837B542; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:42:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (login-1.eunet.no [193.75.110.2]) by mail-relay.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.3/GN) with ESMTP id TAA63766; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 19:42:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA26030; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 19:42:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 19:42:04 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Matthew Jacob Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, marcel@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm fixing the build/install kernel target In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If you feel that kernel reconfiguration is a must for the novice user (the one > who might get bit by not paying attention to overwriting a bootable kernel, > i.e., not using the current 'make install', which will most certainly leave > you with a bootable kernel/modules set if the new one is wrong), then instead > of making this process super safe, I suggest that the install tools are a > better place to do this. We should then take the approach that, say, Tru64 > takes, and reconfig and rebuild a kernel specific for a user's configuration > as part of the install process. Actually, this would, IMHO, be the most worthwhile way out, in that it would reduce the chance of newbies biting themselves where it hurts. I think it would also probably be welcome to spend as little time as you need to for the experienced ones, as well. Marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 10:50:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE0737BA7F; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:50:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.calldei.com) Received: from holly.calldei.com ([208.191.149.190]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FXR007H12WGHF@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net>; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:50:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA44859; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:49:18 -0500 (CDT envelope-from chris) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:49:17 -0500 From: Chris Costello Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-reply-to: <20000715130156.B12982@cicely8.cicely.de> To: Bernd Walter Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Adrian Chadd , Matthew Dillon , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Message-id: <20000715124917.D30847@holly.calldei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i References: <20000712144510.A11316@ywing.creative.net.au> <200007130537.WAA29614@apollo.backplane.com> <20000714112117.D17372@ywing.creative.net.au> <20000714053540.A30847@holly.calldei.com> <20000714124327.A64283@mithrandr.moria.org> <20000714055311.C30847@holly.calldei.com> <20000715130156.B12982@cicely8.cicely.de> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Saturday, July 15, 2000, Bernd Walter wrote: > > The command used to "tell it to change permissions" is chmod. > > Devfs is supposed to work like a file system, not like a user > > level application. If I chmod 0600 /dev/null and reboot without > > issuing some odd 'syncdevfs' command, I want to be the only one > > who can write to the bitbucket when the system comes back up. > Do you really want this or is it OK to have default permissions > in singleuser mode and having this restored while going multiuser? In single user mode, sure. I imagine that the mount code should try to find the file, and if not, just use the attributes set in make_dev(9). -- |Chris Costello |Programming is an unnatural act. `---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 11: 5:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FAEA37C5C0; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:05:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo [192.67.166.79]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19562; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:05:35 -0700 Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:05:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, marcel@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm fixing the build/install kernel target In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I just got through a similar discussion in NetBSD, where somebody wants to take the probe results of a GENERIC kernel and emit a specific config file for the hardware configuration just found. This would be an *excellent* summer project for a grad student somewhere. Anyone know someone who's got time on their hands and an itch to do something valuable like this and generate a paper? On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > If you feel that kernel reconfiguration is a must for the novice user (the one > > who might get bit by not paying attention to overwriting a bootable kernel, > > i.e., not using the current 'make install', which will most certainly leave > > you with a bootable kernel/modules set if the new one is wrong), then instead > > of making this process super safe, I suggest that the install tools are a > > better place to do this. We should then take the approach that, say, Tru64 > > takes, and reconfig and rebuild a kernel specific for a user's configuration > > as part of the install process. > > Actually, this would, IMHO, be the most worthwhile way out, in that it > would reduce the chance of newbies biting themselves where it hurts. I > think it would also probably be welcome to spend as little time as you > need to for the experienced ones, as well. > > Marius > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 13: 1: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3885B37BA05; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:01:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from green@FreeBSD.org) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 16:00:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Fundakowski Feldman X-Sender: green@green.dyndns.org To: Adrian Chadd Cc: Julian Elischer , Kelly Yancey , Robert Watson , Dan Nelson , Warner Losh , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-Reply-To: <20000715140614.A22865@ywing.creative.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'll probably get flamed badly for this proposition, but here goes :) We could create a way for jailed processes to "break out" into the canonical name space. This is a description of possible semantics for creating these "breakout" symlinks, which seems (to me at least) quite feasible. One, a special capability to create these special symlinks would be given to, for now, root outside of any jails. That's a given. The symlinks would point to a place that begins with two slashes to signify "canonical root". That is: # cd /home/jails/foojail # ln -s //proc # ls -l proc lwrxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 6 Jul 15 15:49 proc -> //proc Users without this capability would get the familiar EPERM, including everyone inside a jail. This would be treated by namei(), when inside a jail, with immutable semantics (and not seen as a symlink). Of course, .. would be treated as referring to the jailed root. So inside the jail, you would see: foojail# ls -ld /proc /proc/.. / drwxr-xr-x 37 root wheel 1024 Jul 13 05:29 / dr-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 512 Jul 15 15:53 /proc drwxr-xr-x 37 root wheel 1024 Jul 13 05:29 /proc/.. The advantages of this would be that it wouldn't be very hard to implement (doesn't touch that much code), justifiable implementation (everyone in the world should know by now that "//" isn't going to be "/" on every system), and clear semantics. The only disadvantage I see would be to make an already complex namei() more complex; I believe it wouldn't add much more complexity, though. I think it is a reasonable solution :) Of course, process-based mount tables would be nice... ;) -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 15:52:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18F7837B853; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 15:52:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA21715; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 18:52:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 18:52:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Brian Fundakowski Feldman Cc: Adrian Chadd , Julian Elischer , Kelly Yancey , Dan Nelson , Warner Losh , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Brian Fundakowski Feldman wrote: > We could create a way for jailed processes to "break out" into the > canonical name space. This is a description of possible semantics for What canonical namespace would that be? Robert N M Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 16:12: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70ED237B5F5; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 16:11:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from green@FreeBSD.org) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 19:10:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Fundakowski Feldman X-Sender: green@green.dyndns.org To: Robert Watson Cc: Adrian Chadd , Julian Elischer , Kelly Yancey , Dan Nelson , Warner Losh , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Robert Watson wrote: > On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Brian Fundakowski Feldman wrote: > > > We could create a way for jailed processes to "break out" into the > > canonical name space. This is a description of possible semantics for > > What canonical namespace would that be? Unless you can think of anything else that could possibly be the canonical namespace, struct vnode *rootvnode. > Robert N M Watson > > robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ > PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 > TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 16:43:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C28F937B67B; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 16:43:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA73427; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 17:43:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id RAA49544; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 17:43:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200007152343.RAA49544@harmony.village.org> To: Brian Fundakowski Feldman Subject: Re: SysctlFS Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 Jul 2000 19:10:55 EDT." References: Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 17:43:13 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Brian Fundakowski Feldman writes: : On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Robert Watson wrote: : : > On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Brian Fundakowski Feldman wrote: : > : > > We could create a way for jailed processes to "break out" into the : > > canonical name space. This is a description of possible semantics for : > : > What canonical namespace would that be? : : Unless you can think of anything else that could possibly be the : canonical namespace, struct vnode *rootvnode. Put another way... If we have a jail that lives in /foo/bar, and we have ways to symboliclly link outside /foo/bar, that's a big problem. Also, you really don't want too many devices in a jail's /dev tree. You really wouldn't want devfs for jail unless you could limit it severely. And that's going to be hard to write, I think. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 18:14:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F6737B621; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 18:14:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from green@FreeBSD.org) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 21:14:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Fundakowski Feldman X-Sender: green@green.dyndns.org To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-Reply-To: <200007152343.RAA49544@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > In message Brian Fundakowski Feldman writes: > : On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Robert Watson wrote: > : > : > On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Brian Fundakowski Feldman wrote: > : > > : > > We could create a way for jailed processes to "break out" into the > : > > canonical name space. This is a description of possible semantics for > : > > : > What canonical namespace would that be? > : > : Unless you can think of anything else that could possibly be the > : canonical namespace, struct vnode *rootvnode. > > Put another way... > > If we have a jail that lives in /foo/bar, and we have ways to > symboliclly link outside /foo/bar, that's a big problem. Why? It's got exactly the same considerations as the "true" root being able to mount(2) things into a jail or mknod(2). > Also, you really don't want too many devices in a jail's /dev tree. > You really wouldn't want devfs for jail unless you could limit it > severely. And that's going to be hard to write, I think. But you could create multiple mounts (instances) of devfs which each contain a specific subset of the devfs proper and do the "symlink breakout" accordingly :) An aspect of jail classes, if you will. > Warner -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 20: 2:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86E6337B5DA; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 20:02:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA24035; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 23:02:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 23:02:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Brian Fundakowski Feldman Cc: Adrian Chadd , Julian Elischer , Kelly Yancey , Dan Nelson , Warner Losh , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Brian Fundakowski Feldman wrote: > On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Robert Watson wrote: > > > On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Brian Fundakowski Feldman wrote: > > > > > We could create a way for jailed processes to "break out" into the > > > canonical name space. This is a description of possible semantics for > > > > What canonical namespace would that be? > > Unless you can think of anything else that could possibly be the > canonical namespace, struct vnode *rootvnode. On Coda diskless workstations, we have a kernel with an MFSROOT, and then chroot processes to under the Coda tree. This technique is probably used in other environments also (possibly NFS diskless boxes, et al?). One of the traditional ambiguities in UNIX has been the nature of the root directory -- it is defined specifically in the context of a process. Chroot'd processes can chroot, and spawn processes that can then chroot. Right there you can see three potential "real" root directories. :-) Now imagine that jail() supported nesting... That's one reason why I find the idea of absolute symlinks outside of the chroot environment uncomfortable, and prefer some sort of light-weight mount mechanism, or run-time constructed specialized links or the like, rather than name-based construction. Robert N M Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 21:22:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C56037BA24; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 21:22:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA19582; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 13:52:33 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 13:52:32 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, marcel@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm fixing the build/install kernel target Message-ID: <20000716135232.Q57098@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20000714165105.O25571@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000714172250.P25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000714172250.P25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, 14 July 2000 at 17:22:50 -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Alfred Perlstein [000714 16:51] wrote: >> The default will no longer be GENERIC. Having that default makes it >> way too easy to shoot yourself in the foot, it will be manditory to >> specify a KERNEL=. >> >> The install target will be corrected to behave the same way that >> the old install target from the kernel build directory does. That >> means it will do the kernel->kernel.old and install over /kernel. >> The current way makes it overly complex and error prone. > > Actually, I retract this, I'm leaving it broken and raising an > exception about how it's killing our newbies and suprising a lot > of our users. > > Marcel, I'd appreciate you investigating fixing this. > > The above fix could be done or several other options can be taken: > > 1) "GENERIC" -> "kernel", that way the default works > 2) echo >> kernel="GENERIC" >> /boot/loader.conf > # fix the /kernel thing to be /GENERIC in the installer I'm not too happy with this. > 3) make a simplfied target that does the right thing (installing /kernel) > rename the buildkernel and installkernel to something else replacing > them with the simplified target. > 4) the original suggestion: if the KERNEL var isn't set then bomb out, > so the install to /kernel. > > I like the 3 and 4, but 1 2 are pretty acceptable. I'm not too happy with any of this. > Making configuring a kernel more complex and error prone should > have never happened. Indeed. Here's what I think would make sense: 1. Allow "make buildkernel" and "make installkernel" in /usr/src with no options. The results should be identical with the "make all" and "make install" in /usr/src/sys/compile/MYKERNEL, where MYKERNEL is the name of the currently running kernel. The rule in /usr/src can get the name from uname(1). 2. Call the resultant kernel "kernel", not "MYKERNEL". This is what we're used to, and peter recently went to some trouble to remove arbitrary kernel names. 3. Put the build directory in the /usr/obj hierarchy, not the /usr/src/sys/compile hierarchy. That would (help) enable read-only /usr/src. Comments? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 22:30:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 018DE37BA6B; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:29:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from green@FreeBSD.org) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 01:29:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Fundakowski Feldman X-Sender: green@green.dyndns.org To: Robert Watson Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: SysctlFS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Robert Watson wrote: > > > > Unless you can think of anything else that could possibly be the > > canonical namespace, struct vnode *rootvnode. > > On Coda diskless workstations, we have a kernel with an MFSROOT, and then > chroot processes to under the Coda tree. This technique is probably used > in other environments also (possibly NFS diskless boxes, et al?). One of > the traditional ambiguities in UNIX has been the nature of the root > directory -- it is defined specifically in the context of a process. > Chroot'd processes can chroot, and spawn processes that can then chroot. > Right there you can see three potential "real" root directories. :-) Now > imagine that jail() supported nesting... Yes, but there is always a mount entry for "/", and that is called rootvnode. If you'd prefer to think of it that way, it's often the same as proc0.p_fd->fd_fd.fd_rdir. We will always have a canonical root directory un{til,less} we move toward the Plan-9 design of per-process mount tables. If jail() supported a "breakout", it should only be to the canonical root, the first root, I believe. > That's one reason why I find the idea of absolute symlinks outside of the > chroot environment uncomfortable, and prefer some sort of light-weight > mount mechanism, or run-time constructed specialized links or the like, > rather than name-based construction. Well, it's just an idea. I fear there won't be a more elegant way of doing it short of per-process mount tables :) > Robert N M Watson > > robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ > PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 > TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 22:36: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF7B37BA49; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:35:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA74170; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 23:35:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id XAA50733; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 23:35:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200007160535.XAA50733@harmony.village.org> To: Brian Fundakowski Feldman Subject: Re: SysctlFS Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 Jul 2000 21:14:17 EDT." References: Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 23:35:36 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Brian Fundakowski Feldman writes: : On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Warner Losh wrote: : : > In message Brian Fundakowski Feldman writes: : > : On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Robert Watson wrote: : > : : > : > On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Brian Fundakowski Feldman wrote: : > : > : > : > > We could create a way for jailed processes to "break out" into the : > : > > canonical name space. This is a description of possible semantics for : > : > : > : > What canonical namespace would that be? : > : : > : Unless you can think of anything else that could possibly be the : > : canonical namespace, struct vnode *rootvnode. : > : > Put another way... : > : > If we have a jail that lives in /foo/bar, and we have ways to : > symboliclly link outside /foo/bar, that's a big problem. : : Why? It's got exactly the same considerations as the "true" root being : able to mount(2) things into a jail or mknod(2). You shouldn't be able to mount thinks in jail or mknod. While in jail, you cannot do a mknod right now. While in jail, you can't do a mount. Creating holes in this scheme makes me extremely nervous. : > Also, you really don't want too many devices in a jail's /dev tree. : > You really wouldn't want devfs for jail unless you could limit it : > severely. And that's going to be hard to write, I think. : : But you could create multiple mounts (instances) of devfs which each : contain a specific subset of the devfs proper and do the "symlink : breakout" accordingly :) An aspect of jail classes, if you will. Why bother with a symlink? Why not have a reference to the real dev_t? Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 15 22:38: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B6737BA6B; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:38:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA74179; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 23:37:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id XAA50753; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 23:37:38 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200007160537.XAA50753@harmony.village.org> To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: I'm fixing the build/install kernel target Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, marcel@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 16 Jul 2000 13:52:32 +0930." <20000716135232.Q57098@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20000716135232.Q57098@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20000714165105.O25571@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000714172250.P25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 23:37:38 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000716135232.Q57098@wantadilla.lemis.com> Greg Lehey writes: : Here's what I think would make sense: : : 1. Allow "make buildkernel" and "make installkernel" in /usr/src with : no options. The results should be identical with the "make all" : and "make install" in /usr/src/sys/compile/MYKERNEL, where : MYKERNEL is the name of the currently running kernel. The rule in : /usr/src can get the name from uname(1). No. We can't do this. There are times when new tools are needed to build the kernel. buildkernel takes care of this by using the ones just created by buildworld. Doing this is very hard in the normal tree. Haven't we been through this enough? : 2. Call the resultant kernel "kernel", not "MYKERNEL". This is what : we're used to, and peter recently went to some trouble to remove : arbitrary kernel names. this is ok. : 3. Put the build directory in the /usr/obj hierarchy, not the : /usr/src/sys/compile hierarchy. That would (help) enable : read-only /usr/src. This would be nice. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message