From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 0:21: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0CAE37B99F for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 00:20:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA18631; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:20:51 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.20000305090107.00a4c100@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 09:19:53 +0100 To: "Jamie A. Lawrence" From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000304233500.A15262@thirdage.com> References: <20000304132611.B48777@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> <20000304132611.B48777@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 23:35 04.03.00 -0800, you wrote: >++ 04/03/00 13:26 -0500 - Crist J. Clark: >> Driving is an activity that incurrs a cost on society, building roads, >> regular maintainance, salter, snow plows, maintainace to fix the >> damage the snow plows did, etc. > >A cost that is not fully realized in the US. Hi! Well, in germany they try to realize it, and current taxes on fuel and cars are risen with the argument that they cost much to maintain. But- not all that money collected goes directly to street maintenance, at least they were unable to show direct figures for that. Sure, personal assult vehicles consume more than they pay for. If >they were taxed at a sane rate, far fewer people would drive them. > >This from a serious anarchist who wants to see private roads everywhere. >If everyone payed a private entity to get to work, we'd see a saner >commute schedule. It would be a lot different. Makes you ("you" meaning >people in CA, US) wonder, I hope. I live here. Yes, some countries like France and switzerland also have some schematics like that. for some of the big highways you have to pay to drive over them, you have to buy some kind of sticker or ticket, that is valid for a certain distance or time... Other problem is, that in germany the roads are financed by the state, but the railway (there is only one organization) has to pay the rails themselves. Commuting is, as germany is a dense populated area, also very common, but 50 km are regarded as not that good, and you seldom go over 100 km, if you don't need to. If it is a good job you want to have for some longer time, that you move to that area. You also get more free time not having to commute that time, freeing sometimes half or even an hour a day... >> > It's the same the whole world over. Energy policies and fuel costs aren't >> > driven by markets or even common sense. They are controlled by big >> > cartels, big government, and politics. Yes, they also try to get something on the railway, but it is mostly much cheaper to go by car. Example: If I travel from my city where I do my studies to my mom at home, thats 300 km ~186 miles, then I have to pay approx 44 DM 1 U$~2 DM for a one-way ticket, normal class, rebates as a student with a special rebate card I have to pay for (gets me half price) (Bahncard for german listeners). Add some more DM for the bus from the railway station to my mom's home 10 km away, and you get the figure. travelling time is about 4-5 hrs. With a car, you can do the same distance in 3 hrs, and need approx 25 litres of fuel, with a diesel, you get 20 litres(at 1.50DM/l), this making up to much smaller costs, if you leave the cost of the car aside. (and thats the thingie almost left out by most people, that cars also have some running costs to be distributed). As students, we share some rides, thus paying the half or third of what railway would cost, even when counting in all the rebates they give up to half price... Regards Olaf Hoyer -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 5:56:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AAA3D37BA0A for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 05:56:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 29064 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2000 13:56:27 -0000 Received: from useraj14.uk.uudial.com (HELO parish.my.domain) (62.188.133.143) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 5 Mar 2000 13:56:27 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00353; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 13:56:37 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 11:42:11 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Message-ID: <20000305114210.B668@parish> References: <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> <200003041752.KAA09600@nomad.yogotech.com> <4.2.2.20000304133643.0417e100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000304133643.0417e100@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:39:32PM -0700 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:39:32PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:52 AM 3/4/2000 , Nate Williams wrote: > > >The reason gas is so expensive is CA is because a couple of refineries > >blew up last year, and due to the monopolies shared by the gas > >companies, there was no-one lef to take up the 'demand' when they quit > >producing. > > > >Demand stayed the same, production was reduced, price goes up. Simple > >economics.. > > Exactly. And the monopoly is government-granted because it mandated the > special gas. California also has special and arbitrary requirements for > milk which keep out-of-state vendors out and raise the price. > Californians run their cars on milk? ;-) > --Brett > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 8:28:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74F837BA32 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 08:28:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA62392; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 11:32:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 11:32:02 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Mark Ovens Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Message-ID: <20000305113201.A62310@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> <200003041752.KAA09600@nomad.yogotech.com> <4.2.2.20000304133643.0417e100@localhost> <20000305114210.B668@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000305114210.B668@parish>; from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 11:42:11AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 11:42:11AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:39:32PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 10:52 AM 3/4/2000 , Nate Williams wrote: > > > > >The reason gas is so expensive is CA is because a couple of refineries > > >blew up last year, and due to the monopolies shared by the gas > > >companies, there was no-one lef to take up the 'demand' when they quit > > >producing. > > > > > >Demand stayed the same, production was reduced, price goes up. Simple > > >economics.. > > > > Exactly. And the monopoly is government-granted because it mandated the > > special gas. California also has special and arbitrary requirements for > > milk which keep out-of-state vendors out and raise the price. > > > > Californians run their cars on milk? ;-) Water-burning engines. I _hope_ we don't go there. But it did occur to me (and I wasn't going to say anything) to wonder from where CA would import milk. I mean Wisconsin and New York are long truck rides. (Think of all of the gas. ;) I doubt Nevada and Arizona have big dairy potential. Maybe Oregon and Washington? Of course, agriculture has some of the most bizarre economic policy of them all, the classic being the gov't paying a producer _not_ to produce. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 8:58: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1814A37B9ED for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 08:57:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 12359 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2000 16:57:33 -0000 Received: from userai65.uk.uudial.com (HELO parish.my.domain) (62.188.133.95) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 5 Mar 2000 16:57:33 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00657; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 16:57:44 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 16:57:43 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Brett Glass , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Message-ID: <20000305165743.D388@parish> References: <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> <200003041752.KAA09600@nomad.yogotech.com> <4.2.2.20000304133643.0417e100@localhost> <20000305114210.B668@parish> <20000305113201.A62310@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000305113201.A62310@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>; from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com on Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 11:32:02AM -0500 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 11:32:02AM -0500, Crist J. Clark wrote: > On Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 11:42:11AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:39:32PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > > At 10:52 AM 3/4/2000 , Nate Williams wrote: > > > > > > >The reason gas is so expensive is CA is because a couple of refineries > > > >blew up last year, and due to the monopolies shared by the gas > > > >companies, there was no-one lef to take up the 'demand' when they quit > > > >producing. > > > > > > > >Demand stayed the same, production was reduced, price goes up. Simple > > > >economics.. > > > > > > Exactly. And the monopoly is government-granted because it mandated the > > > special gas. California also has special and arbitrary requirements for > > > milk which keep out-of-state vendors out and raise the price. > > > > > > > Californians run their cars on milk? ;-) > > Water-burning engines. I _hope_ we don't go there. > > But it did occur to me (and I wasn't going to say anything) to wonder > from where CA would import milk. I mean Wisconsin and New York are > long truck rides. (Think of all of the gas. ;) I doubt Nevada and > Arizona have big dairy potential. Maybe Oregon and Washington? > > Of course, agriculture has some of the most bizarre economic policy of > them all, the classic being the gov't paying a producer _not_ to > produce. Ah, so you have that over there as well? I thought it was just the EU that wasted money that way. BTW, in this thread there has been mush talk of SUV's. What does SUV stand for? (I can work out that the "V" is vehicle:)) > -- > Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 9: 9:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7689A37BA73 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:09:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA64228; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 12:12:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 12:12:41 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Mark Ovens Cc: cjclark@home.com, Brett Glass , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Message-ID: <20000305121241.F62310@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> <200003041752.KAA09600@nomad.yogotech.com> <4.2.2.20000304133643.0417e100@localhost> <20000305114210.B668@parish> <20000305113201.A62310@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <20000305165743.D388@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000305165743.D388@parish>; from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 04:57:43PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 04:57:43PM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: [snip] > > BTW, in this thread there has been mush talk of SUV's. What does > SUV stand for? (I can work out that the "V" is vehicle:)) Sport Utility Vehicle. That's what the owners like to call them. I prefer 'small truck' or when you want to piss off the male SUV owner, call it a 'station wagon.' ("Real Trucks" don't have leather seats, CD changers, and ride like a Lincoln Town Car.) -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 9:20:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1EF937BAA4 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:20:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00613; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 12:18:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200003051718.MAA00613@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000305165743.D388@parish> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 12:18:48 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Mark Ovens Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 05-Mar-00 Mark Ovens wrote: > On Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 11:32:02AM -0500, Crist J. Clark wrote: > > BTW, in this thread there has been mush talk of SUV's. What does > SUV stand for? (I can work out that the "V" is vehicle:)) Sport Utility Vehicle. Usually a kind of 4x4 Jeep looking vehicle. The type of vehicle you would use to go off-roading or to drive across Alaska or something. The problem is that people drive these things around suburbs. :) They aren't very fuel efficient, but are just a silly status symbol. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 9:37: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C977637BA7A for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:36:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 28418 invoked from network); 5 Mar 2000 17:36:47 -0000 Received: from userap49.uk.uudial.com (HELO parish.my.domain) (62.188.136.10) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 5 Mar 2000 17:36:47 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA01082; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 17:36:59 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 17:36:59 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: John Baldwin Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Message-ID: <20000305173659.C899@parish> References: <20000305165743.D388@parish> <200003051718.MAA00613@server.baldwin.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200003051718.MAA00613@server.baldwin.cx>; from jhb@freebsd.org on Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 12:18:48PM -0500 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 12:18:48PM -0500, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 05-Mar-00 Mark Ovens wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 11:32:02AM -0500, Crist J. Clark wrote: > > > > BTW, in this thread there has been mush talk of SUV's. What does > > SUV stand for? (I can work out that the "V" is vehicle:)) > > Sport Utility Vehicle. Usually a kind of 4x4 Jeep looking vehicle. > The type of vehicle you would use to go off-roading or to drive > across Alaska or something. The problem is that people drive these > things around suburbs. :) > Ah right, same here but we just call them 4x4's > They aren't very fuel efficient, but are just a silly status symbol. > True > -- > > John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ > PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 9:41:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fb02.eng00.mindspring.net (fb02.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.229.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE7F37BA82 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:41:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtklq.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.210.186]) by fb02.eng00.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA07391; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 12:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA00727; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:45:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) To: cjclark@home.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-Reply-To: <20000305113201.A62310@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> References: <4.2.2.20000304133643.0417e100@localhost> <20000305114210.B668@parish> <20000305113201.A62310@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on XEmacs 21.1 (Bryce Canyon) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000305094536F.jhix@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 09:45:36 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 990905(IM130) Lines: 11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [snip] > But it did occur to me (and I wasn't going to say anything) to wonder > from where CA would import milk. [snip] Bah, there's always Berkeley Farms :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 9:58: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (mta3.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0DFD37BA3F for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:58:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jazepeda@pacbell.net) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org ([207.214.149.254]) by mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FQY006S6N7LWT@mta3.snfc21.pbi.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:57:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFFE191588; Sun, 05 Mar 2000 09:57:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 09:57:20 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-reply-to: <4.1.20000305083742.00a4af00@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> To: Olaf Hoyer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 5 Mar 2000, Olaf Hoyer wrote: > >Yes, but look at the fact that for a fuel injected car with an oxygen > >sensor (i.e. Lambada-Sond for many European cars), oxygenated fuel just > >means that more fuel is burnt, creating more pollution. Sure the exhaust > >is marginally cleaner, but there's also going to be more of the "cleaner" > >exhaust. > Hi! > > Well, every german car has to have a three-way-catalysator by now, > otherwise the taxes charged will be three times as high... And as of the > improvements in engine technology, they use sometimes half the fuel than of > 10 or 15 years ago... Yes, but look at the trend in America towards larger engines and larger vehicles. And yes, a catalytic convertor does reduce emissions, but a fuel injected car, with an oxygen sensor, when fed oxygenated fuel will think that it's running lean and richen the mixture, meaning more fuel is burned than needed. Oxygenated fuel only works well with carb'd cars. Even then, I think that unleashing MTBE on the environment is a BAD idea. > FYI, the old VW beetle was able to also use unleaded. beginning with some > engine series in the seventies. If you knew which engine rev you had, you > could use unleaded with no harm to the engine... Sure, and many older engines were also able to use unleaded gasoline or be retrofited to handle it, but, it wasn't outlawed in California until the late 80s or early 90s, and was still available in the UK up until recently I think. > Yes, here in germany it makes up most of the price at all... > 1 litre of diesel is 1,50 DM, normal unleaded is about 1,80DM, and super > plus (the replacement for really old ones and highpower engines that would > need lead and/or have a high compression) is sometimes a bit above 2 DM. > 1 U$~2 DM The tax per gallon of gas (and who is collecting the tax) is actually on a sticker at each island usually (at least here). The cheapest here that I have found is 1.55 for 87 Octane, 1.75 for 89, and 1.99 for 91. Even the small "independant" stations are more expensive. > >Also, when comparing the gasoline prices of America to those of other > >countries, consider that the $1.55/gal gas (well the "cheap stuff") > >would most likely not be doing too much good for a small high output > >engine that requires high octane. > > Yes, but those people driving those cars whether have money to afford their > "hobby", as (at least european) high-performance cars are quite expensive > to buy... Well, no. I'm not even referring to extremely high-performance cars. I think that there would be quite a few non high perf cars in Europe that would not handle the 86 or 87 octane gasoline (or M85 in some areas) too well. - alex My profound quote: "Mmmm, crunchy" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 11:41:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E40E537BAE9; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 11:41:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA06371; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 12:40:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38C2B826.D188535A@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 12:40:22 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Alex Zepeda , Dennis , Brett Glass , Mark Newton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Koster, K.J." , Wes Peters Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew N. Dodd" wrote: > > On Sat, 4 Mar 2000, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > MTBE causes more harm than good. Sure the air in metropolitan areas > > (Bay Area, LA, NY) is better than it was 20 or 30 years ago, but with > > the creeping SUVitis, it's starting to get worse. Sure the exhaust is > > cleaner, but there's so much more of it that it is still overwhelming > > the environment. > > I wouldn't have a problem with SUVs if they were required to pass > emissions and safety requirements other passenger vehicles are. I wouldn't have a problem with SUVs if they were being bought by the 5% of the driving public that actually have some valid reason to own and drive such a car. Then the emissions and safety requirements wouldn't be nearly as important as when they're being bought by 50 or 60 percent of car buyers. Sticking them in the CAFE requirements would go a LONG way to solving the problem. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 13:42:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alcanet.com.au (mail.alcanet.com.au [203.62.196.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22DC737B719 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 13:42:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jeremyp@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au) Received: by border.alcanet.com.au id <115203>; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 08:43:33 +1100 Content-return: prohibited From: Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out To: newton@internode.com.au Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <00Mar6.084333est.115203@border.alcanet.com.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 08:43:33 +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [redirected from -hackers] On Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:12:13 +1030, Mark Newton wrote: >I'm paying A$0.83c/L right now, which is roughly A$3.73/gal, which is >roughly US$2.76. Not quite. US gallons are different to imperial gallons (1USgal = 3.785l) and the exchange rate is closer to 1AUD=0.61USD. So you're paying more like USD1.92/USgal. Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 15:52:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9015337BB8B for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 15:52:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA66604; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:57:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:57:13 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Alex Zepeda Cc: Olaf Hoyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Message-ID: <20000305185712.H62310@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <4.1.20000305083742.00a4af00@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from jazepeda@pacbell.net on Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 09:57:20AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 09:57:20AM -0800, Alex Zepeda wrote: > On Sun, 5 Mar 2000, Olaf Hoyer wrote: > > > >Yes, but look at the fact that for a fuel injected car with an oxygen > > >sensor (i.e. Lambada-Sond for many European cars), oxygenated fuel just > > >means that more fuel is burnt, creating more pollution. Sure the exhaust > > >is marginally cleaner, but there's also going to be more of the "cleaner" > > >exhaust. > > Hi! > > > > Well, every german car has to have a three-way-catalysator by now, > > otherwise the taxes charged will be three times as high... And as of the > > improvements in engine technology, they use sometimes half the fuel than of > > 10 or 15 years ago... > > Yes, but look at the trend in America towards larger engines and larger > vehicles. And yes, a catalytic convertor does reduce emissions, but a > fuel injected car, with an oxygen sensor, when fed oxygenated fuel will > think that it's running lean and richen the mixture, meaning more fuel is > burned than needed. Do you have any cites for this? I am not too familiar with the intricacies of fuel-injection technology, but wonder how this would occur. If the sensor you are talking about somehow detects atmospheric, free oxygen, it won't pick up the stuff in the gas. The 'E' in MBTE is for ether. It has a oxygen bonded to two carbons, and I really don't think a sensor that picks up free oxygen would detect it. On the other hand, oxygenated fuels do have "less bang for the buck." In some sense, they are already partially burned since they are partially oxygenated. (A more acurate way to think of it is that a oxygenated compound has a lower heat of combustion.) So you will be using more gas in that a kilogram of oxygenated fuel does not not produce quite as much heat as completely oxygen free hydrocarbons _when completely combusted._ However, in the real world, you don't get complete combustion. I have no idea whether the fact that oxygenated fuels burn more completely makes up for their lower inherent heat of combustion. I doubt it, but I guess I'd have to find a well controlled study that compared the gas milage of a variety of vehicles running with the two types of fuels to answer it. > Oxygenated fuel only works well with carb'd cars. After all I said above, I'd love a cite for this too. Aren't the majority of new vehicles pretty much all fuel injected. > Even then, I think that unleashing MTBE on the environment is a BAD idea. That is a whole other issue. It's an extension of the abysmal track record of gasoline storage. No one yet knows if the health impact of the MTBE that is already out there is going to be terrible or if it is absolutely nil. However, being in a state that uses it, I watch where my water comes from. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 16:46: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1FB937B7D5 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 16:45:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06830; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 17:45:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38C2FFC0.AAC99D59@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 17:45:52 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dennis Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out References: <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> <200003052008.PAA17773@etinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dennis wrote: > > At 08:57 PM 3/4/00 -0700, you wrote: > >Dennis wrote: > >> > >> >This week, I traveled from Wyoming to California and discovered that > >> >gas prices were 25% higher in the Golden State than in the Cowboy > >> >State. Why? Because Californians "tax" themselves by requiring that > >> >everyone buy fuel with high concentrations of MTBE, an oxygenating agent. > >> >MTBE was supposed to reduce pollution, but in fact is a worse pollutant > >> >than oxides of nitrogen ever were. However, since only California > >> >refineries make gas with a high enough concentration of MTBE, Californians > >> >are locked into buying from these few sources and the price goes up. > >> >WAY up. Los Angeles will have $2.50 gas this summer. > >> > > >> >It's the same the whole world over. Energy policies and fuel costs aren't > >> >driven by markets or even common sense. They are controlled by big > >> >cartels, big government, and politics. > >> > >> I think you've been reading too much of that commie literature they have > >> out there on the West Coast. Gas taxes are designed to pay for roads and > >> highways, and you have lots more infrastructure in LA than you do in > >> Wyoming. The more you drive, the more you pay. Makes sense to me. > > > >What doesn't make sense is that Los Angeles has a LOT less highway > >per person than Wyoming. You've obviously never been to Wyoming. > >It's a big state with a population at 475,000 and falling. > > yeah, but I bet it doesnt cost 35K to fill a pothole in Wyoming. Why wouldn't it? The road crews in Wyoming have to drive an average of over 100 miles just to get to the pothole, since the towns are so few and far between. Could we PLEASE keep -hackers off the distribution list for this idiotic discussion? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 17:54:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A295E37BBB3; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 17:54:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA90007; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:52:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:52:53 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Mark Ovens Cc: John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-Reply-To: <20000305173659.C899@parish> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 5 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > Ah right, same here but we just call them 4x4's Except that some of them aren't. (Mm... FWD 'off road' vehicles. Sure.) And 'AWD' in no way resembles a 4x4 with a transfer case and live drive shafts. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 18: 7:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (www.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0105237BBFA; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:07:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07335; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:49:16 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22885; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:07:16 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:07:16 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Mark Ovens , John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Ah right, same here but we just call them 4x4's > > Except that some of them aren't. (Mm... FWD 'off road' vehicles. Sure.) > > And 'AWD' in no way resembles a 4x4 with a transfer case and live drive > shafts. I've got to inject this little bit of humor (humour for our British cousins ;-): Give me a small, light, and fast Japanese car over an SUV (or S/UAV). The assualt vehichle analogy is dead on target. PS: Did anyone hear about the fatal case of road rage? --- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 21:25:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B978C37BC05 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 21:25:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01386; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:25:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200003060525.AAA01386@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38C2BA0D.26701228@gorean.org> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 00:25:47 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Doug Barton Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, Mark Ovens Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 05-Mar-00 Doug Barton wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: >> >> On 05-Mar-00 Mark Ovens wrote: >> > On Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 11:32:02AM -0500, Crist J. Clark wrote: >> > >> > BTW, in this thread there has been mush talk of SUV's. What does >> > SUV stand for? (I can work out that the "V" is vehicle:)) >> >> Sport Utility Vehicle. Usually a kind of 4x4 Jeep looking vehicle. >> The type of vehicle you would use to go off-roading or to drive >> across Alaska or something. The problem is that people drive these >> things around suburbs. :) >> >> They aren't very fuel efficient, but are just a silly status symbol. > > Man... I just love it when the left-wingers come out of the woodwork. >:) How fuel efficient SUV's are depends on the SUV. My Toyota 4Runner > gets 19 MPG on average. I've gotten 22 MPG on long freeway drives. I > actually use the cargo capacity of my vehicle to haul stuff around, but > I wanted an SUV instead of a truck so that I could lock my stuff up, and > carry people when I'm not carrying cargo. /me is not a leftie Anyways, my little Mercury Lynx gets about 40 mpg on the highway, so nyah, your SUV still gets poor mileage in comparison. However, if you actually need the storage space, that's one thing. That still doesn't mean that 90% of 'merkins that buy these things don't need the space and just want the status symbol. :) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 23:41:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 619B737BC7A for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 23:41:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA07414; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:41:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000306003715.041255e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 00:41:06 -0700 To: "Jamie A. Lawrence" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000304233500.A15262@thirdage.com> References: <20000304132611.B48777@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> <20000304132611.B48777@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:35 AM 3/5/2000 , Jamie A. Lawrence wrote: >This from a serious anarchist who wants to see private roads everywhere. If you are either an anarchist or a Libertarian, you would most likely NOT like to see what would happen if this were so. Instead of ELECTED government, you would be subject to the tyranny of private empires and fiefdoms, which are far worse. In almost every case where vital infrastructure is privatized, the new boss isn't the same as the old boss -- he's dramatically worse. >If everyone payed a private entity to get to work, we'd see a saner >commute schedule. You'd be stopping every mile to pay a troll. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 5 23:56:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 269E837BC94 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 23:56:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA07485; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:55:23 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000306004411.0410f860@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 00:44:47 -0700 To: Mark Ovens From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20000305165743.D388@parish> References: <20000305113201.A62310@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> <200003041752.KAA09600@nomad.yogotech.com> <4.2.2.20000304133643.0417e100@localhost> <20000305114210.B668@parish> <20000305113201.A62310@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:57 AM 3/5/2000 , Mark Ovens wrote: >BTW, in this thread there has been mush talk of SUV's. What does >SUV stand for? (I can work out that the "V" is vehicle:)) Status-seeking U-mongous Vehicle. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 6 0: 3:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6751137BCAA for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:03:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:03:35 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , "Jamie A. Lawrence" Cc: Subject: RE: Great American Gas Out Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:03:34 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bf8742$789c3e40$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000306003715.041255e0@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >If everyone payed a private entity to get to work, we'd see a saner > >commute schedule. > > You'd be stopping every mile to pay a troll. Yes, experience shows that the companies that inconvenience their customers the most make the most money. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 6 0:56:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDCE637BCBD for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 00:56:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA62618 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 22:02:59 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 22:02:58 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Proxying lpt0 to Windows hosts Message-ID: <20000305220258.A61933@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How do, This is a long shot. Does anybody know of a way to proxy the parallel ports to a Windows host over a network. I *don't* mean proxying print services, which is what Samba does. Specifically -- I've got an Epson printer attached to a FreeBSD host, exported to Windows hosts using Samba. All works well, the Windows and FreeBSD machines can print to the printer with no problems. However, the printer driver includes various utilities to report on the level of ink left, check the nozzles, and so on. Naturally, this expects to communicate directly with the printer, and won't work unless the printer's plugged in to the Windows host. Which I don't really want to have to do. What I'm hoping for is a utility to run on the FreeBSD end, which would just listen for network connections, and forward data to/from the parallel port, and a corresponding utility on the Windows end, which would let me 'attach' LPT1: on the Windows host to the daemon on the FreeBSD host. That, or another work around for the problem. I've done some digging, but haven't turned up anything. As I say, it's a long shot, but I thought it worth a try. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 6 1:10:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEBF137BCDF for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 01:10:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA40617; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 10:10:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? References: <20000302100710.G2905@freebie.lemis.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Mar 2000 10:10:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:07:10 +1030" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > Just saw this on a NetBSD list. It looks like a good idea. We should > make sure that they don't implement it before we do. Nah, let them implement it, then we steal^H^H^H^Hadopt their code and release the new, improved "FreeBSD 4.1, now with SIS!" DES (never pass up a chance to let others do your work for you) -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 6 1:34:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C021D37BCF2 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 01:34:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA40684; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 10:31:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: kc5vdj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com, mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, (Alfred Perlstein) Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Mar 2000 10:31:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Daniel O'Connor"'s message of "Thu, 02 Mar 2000 14:29:01 +1030 (CST)" Message-ID: Lines: 45 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Daniel O'Connor" writes: > On 02-Mar-00 Jim Bryant wrote: > > this microsoft thing sounds like more trouble than it's worth. chalk > > one up to marketing hype over fuctionality. sometimes it's easier to > > make a direct copy of a tree or something than to use CVS or RCS, and > > thus you would have untouched dupes out there depending on how far you > > are along with whatever you are doing.with the mickeysoft method, you > > would be changing the originals. > > I think you're assuming they're too stupid. > > I would say it would do COW. What people are missing here is that SIS is meant for file servers, where read operations greatly outnumber write operations. Merging copies of identical files saves not only disk space, but also (and more importantly) cache space (at least if their disk cache is up to snuff). Imagine a server that holds home directories for a couple of dozen developers, each of them with a few complete copies of the FreeBSD kernel source (or of whatever product they're developing), each of them with a few local variations. Imagine the disk and memory load on the server every time one of them does a cvs diff... now throw SIS into the mix (assuming a relatively efficient implementation of SIS). Mix well, serve chilled. The difficult part of SIS is not comparing files and merging them if they are identical, but deciding which files to compare, and when. If you can peek into the name cache, a good strategy would be to compare files with identical names (do a reverse strcmp, compare the files if the strcmp matches past at least one slash). You can make comparison (relatively) cheap by storing checksums of each block. For every pair of candidates, compare size first, then a checksum of the block checksums, then the complete block checksums, and finally the complete file. The very best would be to use a set of checksum algorithms which guaranteed that no two blocks of equal size could have identical checksums and yet be different, but I have a hunch that says it can be proved that there is no such beast. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 6 4:34:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC5C037BD6F for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 04:34:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mellon@happy.checkpoint.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA07323; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:35:55 GMT (envelope-from mellon) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:35:55 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Message-ID: <20000306143555.A7305@happy.checkpoint.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 10:31:39AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 10:31:39AM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > The very best would be to use a set of checksum algorithms which > guaranteed that no two blocks of equal size could have identical > checksums and yet be different, but I have a hunch that says it can be > proved that there is no such beast. Is only possible if the total size of all the checksums is greater or equal to the size of the block, which kind of renders it useless. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 6 5:44: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF6837BD51 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 05:43:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id F27047555; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 05:43:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E00321D8A; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 05:43:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 05:43:32 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Olaf Hoyer Cc: Alex Zepeda , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000305083742.00a4af00@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 5 Mar 2000, Olaf Hoyer wrote: :FYI, the old VW beetle was able to also use unleaded. beginning with some :engine series in the seventies. If you knew which engine rev you had, you :could use unleaded with no harm to the engine... Any VW flat four could run unleaded, but unless you switched out the valves and seats, you'd eventually start seeing degradation. The valves used the lead oxide created by leaded gas as a lubricant. I personally just ran unleaded in a standard flat four, and didn't worry about it, as the engine needed head work long before it ever became an issue. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 6 12:15:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB69A37BFC3 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 12:15:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 12S3uZ-000PnA-00; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 20:15:27 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA16765 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 20:15:27 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Message-ID: <20000306201527.A16746@freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 20:15:27 +0000 From: J McKitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: helix desktop Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Has anyone heard any details about the Helix Desktop? It is supposed to be an improvement on Gnome, and it's website just went live. Looks quite interesting. -- -=> jm <=- ------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed in this message are the opinions of the mail program only, and not of the writer, his employer, or freebsd-uk.eu.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 6 13:16:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spirit.jaded.net (spirit.jaded.net [216.94.113.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FB9337BFD1 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:16:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@spirit.jaded.net) Received: (from dan@localhost) by spirit.jaded.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA03655; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 16:16:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 16:16:55 -0500 From: Dan Moschuk To: J McKitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helix desktop Message-ID: <20000306161655.C1952@spirit.jaded.net> References: <20000306201527.A16746@freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000306201527.A16746@freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org on Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 08:15:27PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | Has anyone heard any details about the Helix Desktop? It is supposed | to be an improvement on Gnome, and it's website just went live. Looks | quite interesting. URL? -- Dan Moschuk (TFreak!dan@freebsd.org) "Waste not fresh tears on old griefs." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 6 13:57:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (cr965240-b.abtsfd1.bc.wave.home.com [24.113.19.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9639C37BCD5; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:57:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cpiazza@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: by norn.ca.eu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 73116199E; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:57:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:57:08 -0800 From: Chris Piazza To: Dan Moschuk Cc: J McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helix desktop Message-ID: <20000306135708.B536@norn.ca.eu.org> References: <20000306201527.A16746@freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000306161655.C1952@spirit.jaded.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000306161655.C1952@spirit.jaded.net>; from dan@FreeBSD.ORG on Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 04:16:55PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 04:16:55PM -0500, Dan Moschuk wrote: > > | Has anyone heard any details about the Helix Desktop? It is supposed > | to be an improvement on Gnome, and it's website just went live. Looks > | quite interesting. > > URL? http://www.helixcode.com/desktop/ -Chris -- cpiazza@jaxon.net cpiazza@FreeBSD.org Abbotsford, BC, Canada To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 6 17: 7:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD16437BD1E for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 17:07:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA22817 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 02:07:04 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.20000307020338.00967370@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 02:07:00 +0100 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Status of Applixware (native FBSD) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! Well, as I intend to switch to Applix for Office use, whats the status of the port? At Cebit, the guy told me that they have given some code to Walnut Creek, because they wanted to package their own distro, but knew nothing further. I also heard some good reports on these liste recently. Can anyone tell me whats the current status, and, if it is available (native FBSD- no Linux emulation) where to get it? Here in germany its that usual mess... Regards Olaf Hoyer -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 6 19:17:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0CF37BECB for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:17:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02936; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 22:17:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200003070317.WAA02936@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000307020338.00967370@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 22:17:34 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Olaf Hoyer Subject: RE: Status of Applixware (native FBSD) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 07-Mar-00 Olaf Hoyer wrote: > Hi! > > Well, as I intend to switch to Applix for Office use, whats the status of > the port? It is done and is shipping. See http://www.FreeBSDMall.com/. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 1: 8:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from david.siemens.de (david.siemens.de [192.35.17.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E2037BD43 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 01:08:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de (at relayer david.siemens.de) Received: from mail1.siemens.de (mail1.siemens.de [139.23.33.14]) by david.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06829 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:08:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from curry.mchp.siemens.de (curry.mchp.siemens.de [139.25.42.7]) by mail1.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06759 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:08:47 +0100 (MET) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by curry.mchp.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA05962 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:08:47 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:08:45 +0100 From: Andre Albsmeier To: Olaf Hoyer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of Applixware (native FBSD) Message-ID: <20000307100845.A33926@internal> References: <4.1.20000307020338.00967370@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000307020338.00967370@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de>; from ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de on Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 02:07:00AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 07-Mar-2000 at 02:07:00 +0100, Olaf Hoyer wrote: > Hi! > > Well, as I intend to switch to Applix for Office use, whats the status of > the port? I have got it for a while now. > > At Cebit, the guy told me that they have given some code to Walnut Creek, > because they wanted to package their own distro, but knew nothing further. > > I also heard some good reports on these liste recently. I want to import M$-Word Documents and this doesn't work. The issue (microsoft's expression for bug) is currently being checked. > > Can anyone tell me whats the current status, and, if it is available > (native FBSD- no Linux emulation) where to get it? > Here in germany its that usual mess... I ordered it from WC directly. -Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 2:29:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8005737BE01 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 02:29:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA22740 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 02:29:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 02:29:04 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: March 2000 meeting of San Francisco chapter of BAFUG Message-ID: <20000307022904.E22610@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -- San Francisco BAFUG -- (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) March 2000 Meeting The San Francisco chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding its monthly meeting on Thursday, March 9th. This month's meeting will be held at Whistle's corp. office in Foster City. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda : ==> Our main speaker is TBD. ==> Josef Grosch and Nicole Harrington will talk about BAFUG's plans for the Install-A-Thon at the Cow Palace in Daly City on March 25th. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location : This months meeting will be held at Whistle Communications. Whistle is located at 110 Marsh Dr. in Foster City. There is plenty parking in their lot. Time : The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions : By CalTrain : Exit at the downtown San Mateo station, and walk several miles east on Third Avenue to the Marsh Drive intersection. Alternatively, exit at the Bay Meadows station and take the SanTrans Route 251 Hillsdale - Foster City bus to the Bridgepoint Shopping Center stop and walk 1/4 mile north on Mariner's Island Blvd. to Third Avenue, turning right one block to Marsh Drive. By SamTrans : The Route 251 Hillsdale - Foster City bus line's Bridgepoint Shopping Center terminus is a few blocks from Whistle Communications. By Car : From the South Bay and Peninsula : Take 101 North towards San Francisco, From US-101 northbound, take CA-92 eastbound a mile to the Foster City Blvd., turning left (east) at the end of the ramp onto Metro Center Blvd. Go about a block and turn left (north-east) onto Foster City Blvd. Go about five blocks to the street's end, turning left (north) onto Third Avenue. Go about a block to turn left (west) at the first traffic light, onto Marsh Drive. Immediately turn left into the Whistle parking lot. From the East Bay : From CA-92/Hayward, cross the San Mateo Bridge and take the first exit Foster City Blvd., curving right at the end of the ramp to a left (north-east) turn onto Foster City Blvd. Then process as described above for US-101 northbound. From the North Bay and San Francisco : From US-101 southbound, exit eastbound onto Third Avenue proceeding several miles, past the Mariner's Island Blvd. intersection, to turn right (west) onto Marsh Drive. Immediately turn left into the Whistle parking lot. WWW info : More info can be found at the following URLs Whistle Communications - http://www.whistle.com BAFUG - http://www.bafug.org Contact : Please contact either Nicole Harrington or Josef Grosch on or before March 9th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 2:29:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48EA37BB1D for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 02:29:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA22754 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 02:29:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 02:29:38 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Headcount for March BAFUG, San Francisco Message-ID: <20000307022938.F22610@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday 6pm it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 5:28:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bigphred.greycat.com (bigphred.greycat.com [207.173.133.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0AAA37BF32 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 05:28:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dann@bigphred.greycat.com) Received: (from dann@localhost) by bigphred.greycat.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA01509 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 05:28:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dann) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 05:28:38 -0800 From: Dann Lunsford To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status of Applixware (native FBSD) Message-ID: <20000307052838.A1468@greycat.com> References: <4.1.20000307020338.00967370@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> <20000307100845.A33926@internal> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000307100845.A33926@internal>; from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de on Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 10:08:45AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 10:08:45AM +0100, Andre Albsmeier wrote: > > I want to import M$-Word Documents and this doesn't work. > The issue (microsoft's expression for bug) is currently being checked. > I've had it about a month now, and I do this all the time (My job is a major MS infection site; that's the reason I bought Applix). Hmm. What level of FreeBSD are you running? And what exactly happens when you try to import? -- Dann Lunsford The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil dann@greycat.com is that men of good will do nothing. -- Cicero To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 9:24:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from goliath.siemens.de (goliath.siemens.de [194.138.37.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E37337BCA0 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 09:24:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de (at relayer goliath.siemens.de) Received: from mail2.siemens.de (mail2.siemens.de [139.25.208.11]) by goliath.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12387 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:24:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from curry.mchp.siemens.de (curry.mchp.siemens.de [139.25.42.7]) by mail2.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26624 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:24:11 +0100 (MET) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by curry.mchp.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA11952 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:24:11 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:24:09 +0100 From: Andre Albsmeier To: Dann Lunsford Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of Applixware (native FBSD) Message-ID: <20000307182409.A36615@internal> References: <4.1.20000307020338.00967370@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> <20000307100845.A33926@internal> <20000307052838.A1468@greycat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000307052838.A1468@greycat.com>; from dann@greycat.com on Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 05:28:38AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 07-Mar-2000 at 05:28:38 -0800, Dann Lunsford wrote: > On Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 10:08:45AM +0100, Andre Albsmeier wrote: > > > > I want to import M$-Word Documents and this doesn't work. > > The issue (microsoft's expression for bug) is currently being checked. > > > I've had it about a month now, and I do this all the time (My job > is a major MS infection site; that's the reason I bought Applix). Same why I have to use it :-( > Hmm. What level of FreeBSD are you running? And what exactly happens 3.4-STABLE > when you try to import? I get an error: MY_PATH2APPLIX/axdata/filters/olefilter/olefilter, java libraries not found. The Applixware support guy asked me if I had a jdk115 or jre116 directory somewhere but I don't. There are similar issues in http://www.smartbeak.com/SmartBeak.ent?ENT_COMMAND=INFOBASE_VIEW&ID=5000353 and http://www.smartbeak.com/SmartBeak.ent?ENT_COMMAND=INFOBASE_VIEW&ID=5000406 but they refer to an older version. I have 4.42. -Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 14:22:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760F837C14C for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 14:22:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA02802; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:22:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA1maytf; Tue Mar 7 15:21:50 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA01371; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:22:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003072222.PAA01371@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: how to do this C preprocessor trick? To: cjclark@home.com Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 22:22:04 +0000 (GMT) Cc: bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), molter@csl.sri.com (Marco Molteni), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000226003741.C20702@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> from "Crist J. Clark" at Feb 26, 2000 12:37:41 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Why a, > > do { } while(0) > > Rather than just, > > { } To make it anal. It requires a semicolon in the first case. In the second case, it can be expanded, e.g. in an "if/else" as if( x) { }; else other_stuff... as opposed to: if( x) do { } while(0); else other_stuff... Basically, it lets people be lazy about semicolongs and about making macros upper case and functions lower case, so you can tell if you are getting a function call overhead or an inline preprocessor expansion of a macro. I personally think it's lazy coding, and leads to bad practices, like lowercase macro names or upper case function names becoming an acceptable practice. For blocks of code, it makes it real easy to include more than the 10 lines of code allowed by the (L)GPL by innocently including a header file, and not realizing that it's a block macro instead of a simple macro, or that it's a macro instead of a library function, etc.. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 14:32:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3CA037BAFC for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 14:32:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 14:32:29 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: how to do this C preprocessor trick? Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 14:32:29 -0800 Message-ID: <000401bf8885$056f6e80$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <200003072222.PAA01371@usr09.primenet.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > For blocks of code, it makes it real easy to include more than > the 10 lines of code allowed by the (L)GPL by innocently > including a header file, and not realizing that it's a block > macro instead of a simple macro, or that it's a macro instead > of a library function, etc.. It the macro expands to more than 10 lines of code, the header file it was in that you've already included has to be more than 10 lines. If there's some difference in principle between these two things, I can't imagine what it could be. In both cases, the included code isn't actually in your code at first. In both cases, the included code gets mixed in with your code by the preprocessor. In both cases, the output from the compiler contains bits of boths in sizes that can't be measured in lines. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 14:59:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0C4837C112 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 14:59:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA12738; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:59:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAALMaGYy; Tue Mar 7 15:59:12 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02965; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:59:16 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003072259.PAA02965@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 22:59:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams), dennis@etinc.com (Dennis), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000304133643.0417e100@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Mar 04, 2000 01:39:32 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >The reason gas is so expensive is CA is because a couple of refineries > >blew up last year, and due to the monopolies shared by the gas > >companies, there was no-one lef to take up the 'demand' when they quit > >producing. > > > >Demand stayed the same, production was reduced, price goes up. Simple > >economics.. > > Exactly. And the monopoly is government-granted because it mandated the > special gas. California also has special and arbitrary requirements for > milk which keep out-of-state vendors out and raise the price. The refineries have been back on line for some time. Most recently, there was a survey that tried to determine if people would buy sundry items at a gas station. Gas stations use the gas to draw people in, and then sell convenience store items. After the results of the survey, gas prices have gone up in excess of $0.50 per gallon in the Bay Area, in less than 2 weeks, for a total of 140% of the price two weeks ago. I don't know whether to blame the survey, or political manuevering for the Tuesday primary, to get people pissed off at the incumbent candidates... 8-). Luckily, my car gets 64 miles a gallon on the highway, 38 in the city, so I will not have to fill up until after prices have gone back down. During the last set of gas hikes, I got through almost totally unscathed by the higher prices (I had to buy $1 of the expensive gas, while it was on its way back down). I think my next car is going to be one of the new Fords, with a Hydrogen fuel cell. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 15: 8:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A89D37C17E; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:08:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA15164; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:07:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA.kaqLD; Tue Mar 7 16:07:55 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA03191; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:07:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003072307.QAA03191@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out To: jazepeda@pacbell.net (Alex Zepeda) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:07:59 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), newton@internode.com.au (Mark Newton), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, K.J.Koster@kpn.com (Koster K.J.), wes@FreeBSD.ORG (Wes Peters) In-Reply-To: from "Alex Zepeda" at Mar 04, 2000 07:06:36 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > As for clean air...Im all for it. You might disagree with specific > > things being done, but if nothing were done 20 years ago you wouldnt > > be able to breath in LA at all. Same here in NY. > > Yes, but look at the fact that for a fuel injected car with an oxygen > sensor (i.e. Lambada-Sond for many European cars), oxygenated fuel just > means that more fuel is burnt, creating more pollution. Sure the exhaust > is marginally cleaner, but there's also going to be more of the "cleaner" > exhaust. All fuel injected cars manufactured since 1982 have been Federally required to have Oxygen sensors. The University of Denver did a study that found Oxygenated fuels on average increase pollution, not reduce it, and the ratio of card that benefit from Oxygenated fuels have been dropping steadily, ever since Oxygen sensors were introduced, as older cars are retired. Oxygenated fuels _never_ helped carbuerated vehicles to burn cleaner. > MTBE causes more harm than good. Sure the air in metropolitan areas (Bay > Area, LA, NY) is better than it was 20 or 30 years ago, but with the > creeping SUVitis, it's starting to get worse. Sure the exhaust is > cleaner, but there's so much more of it that it is still overwhelming the > environment. This is actually not a benefit of MTBE. MTBE is actually a waste chemical from other chemical plant processing; it's strange that it (like fluoride, in toothpaste, a waste product of aluminum processing) was ever incorporated. There was a joke going around a while back that the Japanese had solved the emissions problem totally, and that the emissions we see from cards today are actually them disposing of their remaining atmospheric pollution by shipping it over in cannisters as part of new vehicles, to release it slowly over the lifetime of the otherwise completely clean-burning vehicle. 8-) 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 15:19:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1801737B7A1 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:19:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA20385; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:19:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAZ6a4WN; Tue Mar 7 16:18:57 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA03413; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:19:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003072319.QAA03413@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out To: jazepeda@pacbell.net (Alex Zepeda) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:19:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (Olaf Hoyer), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Alex Zepeda" at Mar 05, 2000 09:57:20 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yes, but look at the trend in America towards larger engines and larger > vehicles. And yes, a catalytic convertor does reduce emissions, but a > fuel injected car, with an oxygen sensor, when fed oxygenated fuel will > think that it's running lean and richen the mixture, meaning more fuel is > burned than needed. Oxygenated fuel only works well with carb'd cars. > Even then, I think that unleashing MTBE on the environment is a BAD idea. It does _not_ work well with modern carbuerated cars, and works poorly with older cars, which are totally unhappy in any case, lacking lead in their fuel. It worked with fuel injected cars, prior to 1982, when there were requirements added that fuel injected cars carry Oxygen sensors. Maybe it would work on fuel injected cards with burnt out Oxygen sensors, but I doubt that they are the largest source of pollution these days. You really should read the University of Denver study on fuel Oxygenation. I am reminded of Joe Cannon running for the senate in Utah, and running the smelters down at Geneva Steel at night, so that people would not see the smoke coming from there. I am also reminded of the spokesman on the radio: Host: How does Mr. Cannon to the fact that 60% of the smog on the Wasatch front, the 5th largest air pollution center in the world, due to the temperature inversions, comes from Geneva Steel? Spokesman: Now don't exxagerate! It's only 54%! > Sure, and many older engines were also able to use unleaded gasoline or be > retrofited to handle it, but, it wasn't outlawed in California until the > late 80s or early 90s, and was still available in the UK up until recently > I think. Lead is not a big problem in the Bay Area, unless you live on the tailings from a semiconductor manufacturer... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 15:43:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8F6637B56D for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:43:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA26055; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:42:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAqCa4XY; Tue Mar 7 16:42:45 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA04369; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:43:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003072343.QAA04369@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out To: cjclark@home.com Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:43:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jazepeda@pacbell.net (Alex Zepeda), ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (Olaf Hoyer), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000305185712.H62310@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> from "Crist J. Clark" at Mar 05, 2000 06:57:13 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Yes, but look at the trend in America towards larger engines and larger > > vehicles. And yes, a catalytic convertor does reduce emissions, but a > > fuel injected car, with an oxygen sensor, when fed oxygenated fuel will > > think that it's running lean and richen the mixture, meaning more fuel is > > burned than needed. > > Do you have any cites for this? I am not too familiar with the > intricacies of fuel-injection technology, but wonder how this would > occur. If the sensor you are talking about somehow detects > atmospheric, free oxygen, it won't pick up the stuff in the gas. The > 'E' in MBTE is for ether. It has a oxygen bonded to two carbons, and I > really don't think a sensor that picks up free oxygen would detect > it. 1986. University of Denver study. Funded by an NSF grant. Unfortunately, chemists are less adept at keeping their literature indexed and on line than computer scientists. Here is the public page for the place that has this and similar papers archived, but their search engine is currently broken: http://www.cutr.eng.usf.edu/research/afitc/public.htm Here is what it does to your hoses and seals: http://cartalk.cars.com/Info/Cyberchumps/Questions/q242.html Using queries for "+denver +oxygenated" on Altavista, you can get about 566 hits, and search them down. Wes probably remembers the Denver study from the radio in Utah from around that time. > > Oxygenated fuel only works well with carb'd cars. > > After all I said above, I'd love a cite for this too. Aren't the > majority of new vehicles pretty much all fuel injected. My car, which gets 64 miles a gallon, is carbuerated, as was the Honda CRX-HF, which got 72 miles a gallon. Both have higher pollution output with Oxygenated fuels; I have the Dynamometer results (required in Pima County, Arizona) which prove this, as they are on a six month Oxygenation cycle, and my car was borderline, then it had a clean bill of health (my registration renewal straddled the Oxygenation period). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 15:48:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2978C37B555 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 15:48:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA11767; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:47:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAvYaa5w; Tue Mar 7 16:47:21 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA04504; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:47:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003072347.QAA04504@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:47:50 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jal@ThirdAge.com (Jamie A. Lawrence), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000306003715.041255e0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Mar 06, 2000 12:41:06 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here are study references with regard to Oxygenated fuels, including Ethers (e.g. MTBE). Sorry, you will need xpdf to read these... http://www.arb.ca.gov/cbg/ethanol/ethfate/ethfate.htm Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 18:31:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0DA137B8B7 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:31:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA73967; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:36:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:36:15 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Terry Lambert Cc: cjclark@home.com, Alex Zepeda , Olaf Hoyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Message-ID: <20000307213615.A73820@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <20000305185712.H62310@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <200003072343.QAA04369@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200003072343.QAA04369@usr09.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 11:43:02PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 11:43:02PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Yes, but look at the trend in America towards larger engines and larger > > > vehicles. And yes, a catalytic convertor does reduce emissions, but a > > > fuel injected car, with an oxygen sensor, when fed oxygenated fuel will > > > think that it's running lean and richen the mixture, meaning more fuel is > > > burned than needed. > > > > Do you have any cites for this? I am not too familiar with the > > intricacies of fuel-injection technology, but wonder how this would > > occur. If the sensor you are talking about somehow detects > > atmospheric, free oxygen, it won't pick up the stuff in the gas. The > > 'E' in MBTE is for ether. It has a oxygen bonded to two carbons, and I > > really don't think a sensor that picks up free oxygen would detect > > it. > > 1986. University of Denver study. Funded by an NSF grant. > > Unfortunately, chemists are less adept at keeping their > literature indexed and on line than computer scientists. Hey there! My education was chemical engineering, so we ain't all computer clueles_&##^@^@ NO CARRIER > Here is the public page for the place that has this and similar > papers archived, but their search engine is currently broken: > > http://www.cutr.eng.usf.edu/research/afitc/public.htm Well, I was specifically interested in the idea that oxygenated fuels screw up an "oxygen sensor" in fuel-injected engines. I cannot find something like that on the page. Most of the stuff on that page seems pretty exotic, "An Investigation Into the Use of Piezo-Fluidic Combined Units As Fuel Injectors for Natural Gas Engines." Was one of the hits when I started searching for "inject." > Here is what it does to your hoses and seals: > > http://cartalk.cars.com/Info/Cyberchumps/Questions/q242.html Actually, that URL doesn't say anything really, For the last several years, we've been using oxygenated fuels in our lawn mowers and snow blowers, without any apparent ill effect. Tom and Ray offering anecdotal evidence!? Anyway, one would expect that oxygenated fuels would be no worse if not easier on most hoses and seals (organic polymers) since they would tend to be more hydrophilic. However, it does strongly depend on the exact composition of the polymer. But at present with oxygenated fuels common, I would imagine engineers take them into account and choose materials accordingly, which makes the point moot. Here's a press release from Bayer about their cool new thermoplast that holds up better in fuel environments, http://www.theautochannel.com/news/press/date/19990928/press000297.html Of course if you are driving a relatively old vehicle (like me, '87), lot of good that does you. > Using queries for "+denver +oxygenated" on Altavista, you can > get about 566 hits, and search them down. I _could,_ I suppose. Searching '+fuel +oxygenate +injector' is what I was specifically interested in and it returned a mere 385 hits. (Of course I was most interested in the previous poster backing up his claims with some cites, but we discussed it a little in private email.) A Chevron page (http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/bulletin/oxy-fuel/whwyoxy.html) seems to flat-out refute the idea that oxgyenates mess up the air-fuel mix, Oxygenated gasoline also reduces carbon monoxide emissions. This is how it works: Engines emit more carbon monoxide when they are fed "rich" air/fuel mixtures -- mixtures containing more fuel than can be completely "burned" by the oxygen (from the air) in the mixture. Rich air/fuel mixtures are used during engine startup and warmup and at full throttle (for rapid acceleration). Oxygenated gasoline requires less oxygen (from the air) for complete burning than the same volume of conventional gasoline. Adding oxygenate is like adding more air. So, for the same carburetor or fuel injection setting, changing an engine's fuel from conventional gasoline to oxygenated gasoline produces a "less rich" air/fuel mixture and, therefore, one which generates less carbon monoxide when it burns. The carbon monoxide reduction obtained from oxygenated gasoline is much larger for older cars than for newer, well-maintained cars. They follow with a quote of the wise piece of legislation our Congress passed that requires oxygenated fuels, All gasoline sold in the specified carbon monoxide nonattainment areas during the winter months when the carbon monoxide level is the highest must be oxygenated gasoline with a minimum oxygen content of 2.7 weight percent. And just to toss in another interesting one, here is a lab study of an engine by a student at PSU, http://www.energyinstitute.psu.edu/cl/altfuels.html It's a diesel engine, so it's fuel injected. > > > Oxygenated fuel only works well with carb'd cars. > > > > After all I said above, I'd love a cite for this too. Aren't the > > majority of new vehicles pretty much all fuel injected. > > My car, which gets 64 miles a gallon, is carbuerated, as was > the Honda CRX-HF, which got 72 miles a gallon. Both have > higher pollution output with Oxygenated fuels; I have the > Dynamometer results (required in Pima County, Arizona) which > prove this, as they are on a six month Oxygenation cycle, > and my car was borderline, then it had a clean bill of health > (my registration renewal straddled the Oxygenation period). Dude! 72 mpg in a CRX-HF? It musta been all highway driving and all downhill. Geez, must be the weather out there. I drive a plain ol' CRX and don't get near that, especially in the winter with the combo of the different gas mix and the time it takes a carbuerated engine to warm up. In cold weather areas, it's hard to separate the lower performance due to the different gas mix and due to adverse conditions, but my milage drops 10-15 mpg during the winter. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 19:31:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C01C37B5D6 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 19:31:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-208-170-118-73.dialup.HiWAAY.net [208.170.118.73]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA27302; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:31:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA09023; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:30:58 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200003080330.VAA09023@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Terry Lambert , Alex Zepeda , Olaf Hoyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-reply-to: Message from "Crist J. Clark" of "Tue, 07 Mar 2000 21:36:15 EST." <20000307213615.A73820@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 21:30:58 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" writes: > email.) A Chevron page > (http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/bulletin/oxy-fuel/whwyoxy.html) > seems to flat-out refute the idea that oxgyenates mess up the > air-fuel mix, > > Oxygenated gasoline also reduces carbon monoxide emissions. This is > how it works: Engines emit more carbon monoxide when they are fed > "rich" air/fuel mixtures -- mixtures containing more fuel than can be > completely "burned" by the oxygen (from the air) in the mixture. Rich > air/fuel mixtures are used during engine startup and warmup and at > full throttle (for rapid acceleration). Oxygenated gasoline requires > less oxygen (from the air) for complete burning than the same volume > of conventional gasoline. Adding oxygenate is like adding more > air. So, for the same carburetor or fuel injection setting, changing > an engine's fuel from conventional gasoline to oxygenated gasoline > produces a "less rich" air/fuel mixture and, therefore, one which > generates less carbon monoxide when it burns. The carbon monoxide > reduction obtained from oxygenated gasoline is much larger for older > cars than for newer, well-maintained cars. "So, for the same carburetor or fuel injection setting..." tends to forget the whole purpose of the O2 sensor is to adjust the mixture. Therefore oxygenated fuel is going to affect what the O2 sensor says, negating their entire argument and proving the mixture will run richer. Their argument holds some water when applied to a lawnmower or other engine without an O2 sensor. If it all was so simple as, "Adding oxygenate is like adding more air" then all we'd have to do is turbocharge our engines. Or run the mixture leaner. But the lean mixture results in more oxides of nitrogen... I've always wondered about the aftermarket potential for "recalibrated O2 sensors". There should be a market if somebody could produce O2 sensors that ran lean or rich. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 19:43:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wondermutt.net (host75-157.student.udel.edu [128.175.75.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D2E37BDE1 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 19:43:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from papalia@udel.edu) Received: from morgaine (morgaine.wondermutt.net [192.168.1.2]) by wondermutt.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA05740; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 22:43:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from papalia@udel.edu) Message-Id: <4.1.20000307223510.009512b0@mail.udel.edu> X-Sender: papalia@mail.udel.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 22:40:42 -0500 To: David Kelly , cjclark@home.com From: John Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: Terry Lambert , Alex Zepeda , Olaf Hoyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003080330.VAA09023@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: <20000307213615.A73820@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >"So, for the same carburetor or fuel injection setting..." tends to >forget the whole purpose of the O2 sensor is to adjust the mixture. >Therefore oxygenated fuel is going to affect what the O2 sensor says, >negating their entire argument and proving the mixture will run richer. The function of an O2 sensor in your car is to measure "raw" oxygen, as in "O2" as it's suspended in the atmosphere. Typically it works as a heated element. As it "burns" the oxygen going by, it generates a signal back to your car's computer, which is in turn converted into a "level" reading. With MTBE and oxygenated gases, the "oxygenation" is part of a larger molecule - it is not a free diatomic. As a result, your oxygen sensor won't be reading it. It CAN"T read it based upon the way the O2 sensors works - it is, in essence, a secondary combustion reaction. From what I've gathered from (what little) I've actually read about MTBE, the IDEA behind it is that by having the chemicals infused into the gasoline, they are able to reduce CO, NOx, and other chemicals. This *can* be as simple though as turning CO into CO2. They don't tell you if CO2 is increased, decreased, or static. I've been hunting trying to find a chemical equation which actually shows the combustion reaction of Gasoline w/ MTBE in it. No avail so far. Still searchign through the scientific journals. But in the end, Oxygen as it is part of a GREATER molecule does not affect the O2 sensor of your car. If this is the case, CO and CO2 (standard products of combustion) would ALSO effect the sensor. --John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 20:32:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70FE37B5D4 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 20:32:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA74593; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:34:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:34:00 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: John Cc: David Kelly , cjclark@home.com, Terry Lambert , Alex Zepeda , Olaf Hoyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Message-ID: <20000307233400.J73820@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <20000307213615.A73820@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <200003080330.VAA09023@nospam.hiwaay.net> <4.1.20000307223510.009512b0@mail.udel.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000307223510.009512b0@mail.udel.edu>; from papalia@udel.edu on Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 10:40:42PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 10:40:42PM -0500, John wrote: [snip] > I've been hunting trying to find a chemical equation which actually shows > the combustion reaction of Gasoline w/ MTBE in it. No avail so far. Still > searchign through the scientific journals. You won't find one. Combustion is an entire field unto itself. Gasoline is a complicated mixture of hydrocarbons (which varies depending on where the crude was from, the time it was produced, the plant it came from, and the phase of the moon) and air is a mix of mainly N2 and O2. Combustion is a series of reactions whereby the organics are progressively broken down into smaller and smaller pieces until you only have CO2 and H2O (and CO, SOx, NOx, etc.). The complete set of equations to describe the combustion of gasoline/MBTE would take a tome just to write down. If you want the overall stoichiometry of complete combustion, 2 CH OC(CH ) + 15 O -> 10 CO + 12 H O 3 3 3 2 2 2 And for some physical and chemical properties of MBTE, one of my favorite sites, http://webbook.nist.gov/cgi/cbook.cgi?ID=C1634044&Units=SI&Mask=A (I liked the little surprise on that page that the stuff likes to breakdown to acetone and methanol.) > But in the end, Oxygen as it is part of a GREATER molecule does not affect > the O2 sensor of your car. If this is the case, CO and CO2 (standard > products of combustion) would ALSO effect the sensor. Well, CO is similar to oxygen in some ways, that's why it's toxic and very flammable.... wish I knew the principle behind this sensor. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 20:43:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (www.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2BBD37B5A6 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 20:43:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01063; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:25:09 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA48959; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 22:43:32 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 22:42:52 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: David Kelly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-Reply-To: <200003080330.VAA09023@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 7 Mar 2000, David Kelly wrote: > If it all was so simple as, "Adding oxygenate is like adding more air" > then all we'd have to do is turbocharge our engines. Or run the mixture > leaner. But the lean mixture results in more oxides of nitrogen... I'm almost suprised that no one has touched on the point that adding more oxygen to gasoline is only going to make for a more dangerous product. "If only we hadn't added O2 to this gas, little Ashley/Billy would still be alive today..." I bet in uncontrolled reactions it's more powerful. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 20:52: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wondermutt.net (host75-157.student.udel.edu [128.175.75.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EFDD37B5D3 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 20:51:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from papalia@udel.edu) Received: from morgaine (morgaine.wondermutt.net [192.168.1.2]) by wondermutt.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA06058; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:46:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from papalia@udel.edu) Message-Id: <4.1.20000307233127.009552e0@mail.udel.edu> X-Sender: papalia@mail.udel.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 23:43:06 -0500 To: cjclark@home.com From: John Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: David Kelly , cjclark@home.com, Terry Lambert , Alex Zepeda , Olaf Hoyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000307233400.J73820@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> References: <4.1.20000307223510.009512b0@mail.udel.edu> <20000307213615.A73820@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <200003080330.VAA09023@nospam.hiwaay.net> <4.1.20000307223510.009512b0@mail.udel.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> But in the end, Oxygen as it is part of a GREATER molecule does not affect >> the O2 sensor of your car. If this is the case, CO and CO2 (standard >> products of combustion) would ALSO effect the sensor. > >Well, CO is similar to oxygen in some ways, that's why it's toxic and >very flammable.... wish I knew the principle behind this sensor. I have additional books on fuel injection which are not in my possession at the moment. When I can make a phone call tomorrow (and convince my mom to go through my book shelves =) ) I can get a "text book" description. These units work somewhat (but not exactly like) Oxygen depletion monitors that are sold for personally safety use or for permanent installations (labs, etc). MSA (Mine Saftey Appliances) is one of the front runners in making those (I work for a rep firm that sold them). The principle of operation *there* is that there is a catalytic bead which is compound specific. The bead is heated. As it reacts with the specific compound (in this case, O2), its mV signal changes. Same idea in the car. What follows is REALLY long, but perhaps you may be able to pull some useful stuff out of it. I'm excerpting this from my "factory official" repair manual, from the section that discusses the "Design and Function". Mind you, it's specific for the given car (in terms of the ratios and voltages), but the system (Motronic) is very similar to K-Jetronic, and both are extremely popular in most autos around the world that have EFI (Electronic Fuel Injection) Also, this is written for mechanics, not engineers or chemists, so it's not exactly what would make us happy =) --John Title: Heated Oxygen Sensor (HO2S) "The HO2S is located in the catalysator, and provides the ECM (electronic control module) with information on the air/fuel mixture. The sensor, which is electrically heated, produces a voltage which varies according to the exhaust gas oxygen content. To measure exhaust oxygen content, the HO2S requries a supply of ambient air as a reference. Since this is supplied via the cable, the lead must not be clamped or damanged in any way, nor must oil be used on the sensor contacts since this could also affect the reference air supply. Function: The HO2S only works above a certain temperature: 285 DegC. The normal working temperature lies in a range of 350 DegC to 850 DegC. The HO2S is electrically heated. When the engine starts, a current flows through a PTC resistance. Since the HO2S is cold, the resistance is low and current passed through the circuit is therfore high. As the temperature of the PTC resistance rises, the current falls proportionally. When the engine is running rich, the exhaust gas oxygen content is low, and the HO2S gives a signal of approx 0.9V. Under leaner running, excess oxygen occursa in the exhaust and the output signal from the HO2S drops to nearly zero. The change from high to low signal level occurs at the ideal (stoichiometric) air/fuel ratio of 14.7:1. The ECM uses teh HO2S signal to continually control the amoutn of fuel injected so as to maintain the ideal mixing conditions." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 21:12: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wondermutt.net (host75-157.student.udel.edu [128.175.75.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C118E37B5FD for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:12:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from papalia@udel.edu) Received: from morgaine (morgaine.wondermutt.net [192.168.1.2]) by wondermutt.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA06216; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 00:12:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from papalia@udel.edu) Message-Id: <4.1.20000307235326.009559a0@mail.udel.edu> Message-Id: <4.1.20000307235326.009559a0@mail.udel.edu> X-Sender: papalia@mail.udel.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 00:09:45 -0500 To: Kris Kirby , David Kelly From: John Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <200003080330.VAA09023@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> If it all was so simple as, "Adding oxygenate is like adding more air" >> then all we'd have to do is turbocharge our engines. Or run the mixture >> leaner. But the lean mixture results in more oxides of nitrogen... > >I'm almost suprised that no one has touched on the point that adding more >oxygen to gasoline is only going to make for a more dangerous product. "If >only we hadn't added O2 to this gas, little Ashley/Billy would still be >alive today..." Mainly because the point is somewhat incorrect. The term "oxygenation" is, more or less, a misnomer. It makes people think that O2 is being added. Instead, the MTBE is the "oxygenate". It's formula being CH3-O-C(CH3)3. The oxygen is PART of a greater molecule. NOT on it's own. If they managed to add straight, pure, O2, then all they would be doing is helping to come to "more complete combustion". That's not what they're (supposed to be) donig though. So no, I doubt there's an explosion risk. People probably put themselves at greater risk by adding in Gas-line antifreeze (aka: DryGas) to their gas tanks, which is almost pure alcohol. >I bet in uncontrolled reactions it's more powerful. No idea, but it would be interesting to know. The MSDS states that it's non-explosive, yet flammable. That's no big deal though - gasoline is flammable on it's own :) --John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 7 21:59:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from katroo.Sendmail.COM (katroo.Sendmail.COM [209.246.26.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 990B637B5CD for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:59:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@sendmail.com) Received: from hodgepodge.Sendmail.COM (hodgepodge.Sendmail.COM [10.210.100.101]) by katroo.Sendmail.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05739 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:59:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by hodgepodge.Sendmail.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA97039 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:59:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 21:59:18 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: [donnelly@sendmail.com: truth in advertising from Microsoft?] Message-ID: <20000307215918.A97026@hodgepodge.Sendmail.COM> Reply-To: jgrosch@sendmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Forwarded message from Mike Ratboy Donnelly ----- Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 20:44:06 -0800 From: Mike Ratboy Donnelly Subject: truth in advertising from Microsoft? The classically-minded among us may have noted a new TV ad for Microsoft's Internet Explorer e-mail program, which uses the musical theme of the "Confutatis Maledictis" from Mozart's Requiem. "Where do you want to go today?" is the cheery line on the screen, while the chorus sings "Confutatis maledictis, flammis acribus addictis." This translates to: "The damned and accursed are convicted to the flames of hell." Good to know that Microsoft believes in "truth in advertising." ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 jgrosch@Sendmail.COM | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 4:50:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.on.home.com (ha1.rdc1.on.wave.home.com [24.2.9.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999DA37C003 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 04:50:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from interlog.com ([24.65.50.161]) by mail.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <20000308125046.HUVF16527.mail.rdc1.on.home.com@interlog.com> for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 04:50:46 -0800 Message-ID: <38C64924.FD9B7A5F@interlog.com> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 07:35:48 -0500 From: Paul Griffith Organization: CDG Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: BSD Merger Announcement Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See: http://www.daemonnews.org/200003/merger.html -- Paul Griffith paulg@interlog.com | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 6: 2:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9DCD37B53A for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 06:01:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA04716; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:01:14 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:01:14 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Paul Griffith Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement In-Reply-To: <38C64924.FD9B7A5F@interlog.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Paul Griffith wrote: > > > See: http://www.daemonnews.org/200003/merger.html It's making rounds around the world. So, where's the announcement on -annoncement or is it just an unoffical leak? Narvi > > -- > Paul Griffith paulg@interlog.com | > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 6: 7:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7B0B37B53A for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 06:07:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA58600; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:07:08 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:07:08 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: John Cc: Kris Kirby , David Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000307235326.009559a0@mail.udel.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, John wrote: > > >I bet in uncontrolled reactions it's more powerful. > No idea, but it would be interesting to know. The MSDS states that it's > non-explosive, yet flammable. That's no big deal though - gasoline is > flammable on it's own :) Oxygenated gasoline has a lower calorific content than regular gasoline. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 6:32:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EB6337B7CF for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 06:32:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA65054; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:32:09 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:32:09 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Terry Lambert , Alex Zepeda , Olaf Hoyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-Reply-To: <20000307213615.A73820@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 7 Mar 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: > > Anyway, one would expect that oxygenated fuels would be no worse if > not easier on most hoses and seals (organic polymers) since they would > tend to be more hydrophilic. However, it does strongly depend on the > exact composition of the polymer. But at present with oxygenated fuels > common, I would imagine engineers take them into account and choose > materials accordingly, which makes the point moot. Here's a press Oxygenated fuel is really nasty to some seals, gaskets, and the like. I went through a shocking number of carb rebuild kits in my Land-Rover until I found a supplier who had one made with oxygenated fuel resistant bits. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 8:39:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED7E637C203 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:39:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 12SjUG-000Ath-00; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:39:04 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA43343 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:39:04 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Message-ID: <20000308163903.A43245@freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:39:03 +0000 From: J McKitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: merger and codebase Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just *how* different is BSD/OS from FreeBSD under the hood? Does BSD/OS support kernel threads and/or SMP well? I tried searching the BSD/OS website, but i didn't find any answers. -- -=> jm <=- ------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed in this message are the opinions of the mail program only, and not of the writer, his employer, or freebsd-uk.eu.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 9:19: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from borg-cube.com (226-193.adsl2.avtel.net [207.71.226.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005B437B5F0 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:19:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dburr@borg-cube.com) Received: from locutus.borg-cube.com (locutus.collective.borg-cube.com [192.168.0.1]) by borg-cube.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA72912 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:19:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dburr@borg-cube.com) Message-Id: <4.3.0.20000308085724.00b0f000@mail.borg-cube.com> X-Sender: dburr@mail.borg-cube.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 09:18:54 -0800 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" Subject: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok, I'm sure by now that everyone has seen the "Walnut Creek is merging with BSDi" news, whether through Jordan's announcement or on /. or whatever. My personal opinion is "HELL YEAH!!!!" Both FreeBSD and BSDi can only stand to gain through this. And it will help quash the "Fragmented BSD" argument that those Linux weenies love to use. But I do have a concern, and it is an admittedly selfish and self-centered one. How will this affect committers, such as myself? Admittedly I haven't been doing much committing lately (there's been a LOT of weirdness has been going on in my life lately), but I have been working at getting back into things, slowly but surely. And I'd like to keep going at it :) * Will we have to renegotiate our contracts? Will there be new rules/regulations to read? Will there be forms that I have to sign? Etc... * What about the development tools? Will we still be using CVS, send-pr/GNATS, ssh logins on freefall, etc.? * And the mailing lists? Any change there? * What about Ports? This is probably my biggest concern, as Ports is the area where I am doing my work. * Etc. That's what I want to know. :) - dburr (watching the /. trolls emerge from underneath their rocks and other slimy places, wheeeee! :)) -- Donald Burr Resistance is Futile | FreeBSD: The WWW: http://www.borg-cube.com/ ICQ: UIN#16997506 | Power to Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | Serve! http:// Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 9:33:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4509D37B576 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:33:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA09500; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:33:08 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:33:07 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000308085724.00b0f000@mail.borg-cube.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/ wrote: > Ok, I'm sure by now that everyone has seen the "Walnut Creek is merging > with BSDi" news, whether through Jordan's announcement or on /. or Where's that? > whatever. My personal opinion is "HELL YEAH!!!!" Both FreeBSD and BSDi > can only stand to gain through this. And it will help quash the > "Fragmented BSD" argument that those Linux weenies love to use. > > But I do have a concern, and it is an admittedly selfish and self-centered > one. How will this affect committers, such as myself? Admittedly I > haven't been doing much committing lately (there's been a LOT of weirdness > has been going on in my life lately), but I have been working at getting > back into things, slowly but surely. And I'd like to keep going at it :) > > * Will we have to renegotiate our contracts? Will there be new > rules/regulations to > read? Will there be forms that I have to sign? Etc... > * What about the development tools? Will we still be using CVS, > send-pr/GNATS, ssh > logins on freefall, etc.? I would hope yes. > * And the mailing lists? Any change there? Does bsdi have similar lists? > * What about Ports? This is probably my biggest concern, as Ports is the > area where I am > doing my work. > * Etc. > > That's what I want to know. :) > > - dburr (watching the /. trolls emerge from underneath their rocks and > other slimy > places, wheeeee! :)) > -- > Donald Burr Resistance is Futile | FreeBSD: The > WWW: http://www.borg-cube.com/ ICQ: UIN#16997506 | Power to > Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | Serve! http:// > Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | www.freebsd.org > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 9:38:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D19B37C2D0 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:38:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id EA6AA7558; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:39:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7EE11D8A; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:39:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:39:07 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: David Scheidt Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, David Scheidt wrote: :On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, John wrote: :> >I bet in uncontrolled reactions it's more powerful. :> No idea, but it would be interesting to know. The MSDS states that it's :> non-explosive, yet flammable. That's no big deal though - gasoline is :> flammable on it's own :) :Oxygenated gasoline has a lower calorific content than regular gasoline. So it's less efficient by design. How is it supposed to help reduce consumption or emissions again? Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 10: 1:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F288A37B513 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:01:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id D64AB124E5; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:01:32 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000308163903.A43245@freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000308163903.A43245@freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 18:54:05 +0100 To: J McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: merger and codebase Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:39 PM +0000 2000/3/8, J McKitrick wrote: > Just *how* different is BSD/OS from FreeBSD under the hood? > Does BSD/OS support kernel threads and/or SMP well? One of the things that Jordan mentioned at the kickoff meeting for the Netherlands FreeBSD User Group (NLFUG) this past weekend (where he actually made the first unofficial announcement, but we had to keep a lid on things until the official announcement had gone out) was that BSD/OS has a superior SMP implementation (with fine-grained locking) and that this was one of the things they were really looking forward to incorporating into FreeBSD. I don't recall whether he specifically mentioned how they handle threading. You weren't at the NLFUG meeting? I sent e-mail on the subject to the freebsd-users@freebsd-uk.eu.org mailing list on Friday about this (asking whether anyone else was going), with a pointer to the agenda, etc.... I know that was really late for anyone to change their plans, but you should have at least seen the note. -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 10: 1:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C8E37B731 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:01:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE77E124BA; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:01:25 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:01:10 +0100 To: Narvi , "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:33 PM +0200 2000/3/8, Narvi wrote: > Where's that? The /. article is at . The Daily Daemon News article it references is at . You have no idea how much I wanted to post this to freebsd-chat during the NLFUG meeting on Saturday, with my Macintosh Powerbook G3 running MacOS 8.6, Nokia 7110, and the built-in infrared modem. Talk about a scoop! Oh, well. I guess I can't complain too loudly about them being able to get their official press release put together and released without word leaking out too badly. -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 10: 1:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3369C37B654 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:01:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7747D1236E; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:01:34 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000308085724.00b0f000@mail.borg-cube.com> References: <4.3.0.20000308085724.00b0f000@mail.borg-cube.com> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 18:58:29 +0100 To: "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:18 AM -0800 2000/3/8, Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/ wrote: > But I do have a concern, and it is an admittedly selfish and > self-centered one. How will this affect committers, such as myself? Officially, I think Jordan would need to answer this one. Unofficially, my take from what he said at the NLFUG meeting this weekend was that current committers wouldn't really change anything that they're doing, they'd just be joined by some more people who are being paid full-time to work on certain projects within FreeBSD. > * Will we have to renegotiate our contracts? Will there be new > rules/regulations to read? Will there be forms that I have to sign? > Etc... I think you need to get the official answers from Jordan, but I don't believe that this is probably going to be necessary. > * What about the development tools? Will we still be using CVS, > send-pr/GNATS, ssh logins on freefall, etc.? I doubt there are going to be any changes in any of these areas. > * And the mailing lists? Any change there? I *really* doubt there are going to be any changes there, at least not yet. As the lists get considerably higher volumes of traffic than they do today, it might be necessary to make some changes, but those have to do more with volume than with changes in the management, etc.... > * What about Ports? This is probably my biggest concern, as Ports is > the area where I am doing my work. The ports subsystem is considered one of the better features of FreeBSD, so I don't think that there are likely to be any changes here. -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 10: 4:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6DD37B69A for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:04:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA10017; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 20:04:09 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 20:04:08 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 7:33 PM +0200 2000/3/8, Narvi wrote: > > > Where's that? > > The /. article is at > . > The Daily Daemon News article it references is at > . > > No, I meant the 'Jordan annonuncement', unless that's verbal. 8-) > You have no idea how much I wanted to post this to freebsd-chat > during the NLFUG meeting on Saturday, with my Macintosh Powerbook G3 > running MacOS 8.6, Nokia 7110, and the built-in infrared modem. Talk > about a scoop! > 8-) > Oh, well. I guess I can't complain too loudly about them being > able to get their official press release put together and released > without word leaking out too badly. > Either of them, indeed 8-) > -- > These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy > ========================================================================= > Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin > > Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of > this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, > be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as > a result. > > See for > details. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 10:13:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31D7A37B61C for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:13:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12SkxH-000CKn-00; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 18:13:07 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA44120; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 18:13:07 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Message-ID: <20000308181307.B43905@freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 18:13:07 +0000 From: J McKitrick To: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: merger and codebase References: <20000308163903.A43245@freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Brad Knowles on Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 06:54:05PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 06:54:05PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 4:39 PM +0000 2000/3/8, J McKitrick wrote: > > > Just *how* different is BSD/OS from FreeBSD under the hood? > > Does BSD/OS support kernel threads and/or SMP well? > > One of the things that Jordan mentioned at the kickoff meeting . . . . > was that BSD/OS has a superior SMP implementation (with fine-grained > locking) and that this was one of the things they were really looking > forward to incorporating into FreeBSD. Excellent! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 10:14:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B1A437B654 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:14:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54AD9124C3; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:14:34 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:14:02 +0100 To: Narvi From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:04 PM +0200 2000/3/8, Narvi wrote: > No, I meant the 'Jordan annonuncement', unless that's verbal. 8-) You mean the announcement Jordan made at the kickoff meeting of the NLFUG? That was verbal, and he provided an URL for his presentation that he swore he would make valid as soon as he got back to the US. Unfortunately, I didn't write it down, so I can't give it to you. At this stage, all I can tell you is that his home page is at . -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 10:39:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1377937B515 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:39:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA35602; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:39:37 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:39:37 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Jamie Bowden Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, David Scheidt wrote: > > :On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, John wrote: > > :> >I bet in uncontrolled reactions it's more powerful. > > :> No idea, but it would be interesting to know. The MSDS states that it's > :> non-explosive, yet flammable. That's no big deal though - gasoline is > :> flammable on it's own :) > > :Oxygenated gasoline has a lower calorific content than regular gasoline. > > So it's less efficient by design. How is it supposed to help reduce > consumption or emissions again? Internal combutstion engines aren't 100% efficient at extracting chemical energy from fuel. If you can increase this efficency by steps that reduce the potential energy to be extracted, it is possible to have a net gain. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 10:55:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A5037B513 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:55:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 8341C7555; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:55:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F2141D89; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:55:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:55:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: David Scheidt Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, David Scheidt wrote: :On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Jamie Bowden wrote: : :> On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, David Scheidt wrote: :> :> :On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, John wrote: :> :> :> >I bet in uncontrolled reactions it's more powerful. :> :> :> No idea, but it would be interesting to know. The MSDS states that it's :> :> non-explosive, yet flammable. That's no big deal though - gasoline is :> :> flammable on it's own :) :> :> :Oxygenated gasoline has a lower calorific content than regular gasoline. :> :> So it's less efficient by design. How is it supposed to help reduce :> consumption or emissions again? : :Internal combutstion engines aren't 100% efficient at extracting chemical :energy from fuel. If you can increase this efficency by steps that reduce :the potential energy to be extracted, it is possible to have a net gain. Son instead of extracting roughly 70% of whatever caloric (or BTUs for those who measure in such a fashion) content say 89 cotane normally provides, I'm now extracting 70% of a lesser sum? Decreasing the efficiency of your fuel does not increase the efficiency of the process. You may be able to convince me otherwise, but you better have real data and hard numbers if you wish to do so. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 13: 8:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from taxismtp2.alchemyfx.com (taxismtp2.alchemy.net [208.232.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65ECD37B6A4; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:08:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gummibear@nettaxi.com) Received: from nettaxi.com (pool0296.cvx24-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.211.41]) by taxismtp2.alchemyfx.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10108; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:58:13 -0800 Message-ID: <38C64FB9.297CCA5C@nettaxi.com> Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 13:03:53 +0000 From: Joey Garcia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: questions@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Looking for FreeBSD Consultants in L.B. Area Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey all! Okay, the company I work for is finally thinking about making the shift from dial ups to having a full T1 line for our Internet needs. I guess the phone guy was getting too many headaches trying to keep track of all the dial up lines and whatnot. Any ways, I and the guy in charge of Internet dial ups need to come up with some proposal and about 3 quotes for the installation of a data T1 (our phone guys might end up doing that), router, and firewall. For right now we'd like to keep things simple. Later in the future I'd like to add mail servers, web servers, etc. Personally, I can maintain a mail and web server but it's nice to have a big brother watch in case something really goes wrong considering I'm not exactly a Sendmail and Apache pro. I'm looking for Consultants or Networking Business which of course are FreeBSD friendly in the Long Beach, California area that can help us with this project. Thanks! Joseph Garcia Jr. Network System Administrator To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 13:22:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 3DAB337B693; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BBD52E815C; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:22:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:22:52 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000308085724.00b0f000@mail.borg-cube.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/ wrote: > * Will we have to renegotiate our contracts? Will there be new > rules/regulations to > read? Will there be forms that I have to sign? Etc... We have contracts? Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 13:24:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 09E8937C488; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05FB02E815C; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:24:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:24:32 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Brad Knowles Cc: Narvi , "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > You have no idea how much I wanted to post this to freebsd-chat > during the NLFUG meeting on Saturday, with my Macintosh Powerbook G3 > running MacOS 8.6, Nokia 7110, and the built-in infrared modem. Talk > about a scoop! Unfortunately one of the other attendees didn't have as much self-restraint and spilled the beans on -stable a few days ago :-) Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 13:33:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76CFC37B67B for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:33:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12236; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 14:33:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 14:32:55 -0700 To: "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000308085724.00b0f000@mail.borg-cube.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org More to the point: What will be the effect on the ability of organizations other than BSD, Inc. to make and sell distributions of FreeBSD? Will the merged company now attempt to deny anyone else permission to use the letters "BSD" in a product name, for example? --Brett At 10:18 AM 3/8/2000 , Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/ wrote: >Ok, I'm sure by now that everyone has seen the "Walnut Creek is merging with BSDi" news, whether through Jordan's announcement or on /. or whatever. My personal opinion is "HELL YEAH!!!!" Both FreeBSD and BSDi can only stand to gain through this. And it will help quash the "Fragmented BSD" argument that those Linux weenies love to use. > >But I do have a concern, and it is an admittedly selfish and self-centered one. How will this affect committers, such as myself? Admittedly I haven't been doing much committing lately (there's been a LOT of weirdness has been going on in my life lately), but I have been working at getting back into things, slowly but surely. And I'd like to keep going at it :) > >* Will we have to renegotiate our contracts? Will there be new rules/regulations to > read? Will there be forms that I have to sign? Etc... >* What about the development tools? Will we still be using CVS, send-pr/GNATS, ssh > logins on freefall, etc.? >* And the mailing lists? Any change there? >* What about Ports? This is probably my biggest concern, as Ports is the area where I am > doing my work. >* Etc. > >That's what I want to know. :) > >- dburr (watching the /. trolls emerge from underneath their rocks and other slimy > places, wheeeee! :)) >-- >Donald Burr Resistance is Futile | FreeBSD: The >WWW: http://www.borg-cube.com/ ICQ: UIN#16997506 | Power to >Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | Serve! http:// >Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | www.freebsd.org > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 13:34:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E74437B64E; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:34:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA07194; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:34:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:34:24 -0800 From: Matthew Hunt To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Message-ID: <20000308133423.A7135@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <4.3.0.20000308085724.00b0f000@mail.borg-cube.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@hub.freebsd.org on Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 01:22:52PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 01:22:52PM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > We have contracts? Yeah, you know the one that says you get in on the FreeBSD IPO and outlines your medical benefits and 401(k). You did sign yours, right? -- Matthew Hunt * Science rules. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 13:44:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A528237C01C for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:43:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA19901; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:38:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003082138.NAA19901@implode.root.com> To: Brett Glass Cc: "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Mar 2000 14:32:55 MST." <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 13:38:49 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >More to the point: What will be the effect on the ability of organizations >other than BSD, Inc. to make and sell distributions of FreeBSD? Will the >merged company now attempt to deny anyone else permission to use the >letters "BSD" in a product name, for example? There is only one FreeBSD. If you tried to distribute/sell something that wasn't FreeBSD and you called it FreeBSD, then we'd have a problem with that. Otherwise there is no problem with other people selling FreeBSD. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 14:21:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 826B537B555 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 14:21:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA21103; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:20:19 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:20:19 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Brett Glass Cc: "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Message-ID: <20000308222018.A20782@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.3.0.20000308085724.00b0f000@mail.borg-cube.com> <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 02:32:55PM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 02:32:55PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > More to the point: What will be the effect on the ability of organizations > other than BSD, Inc. to make and sell distributions of FreeBSD? Will the > merged company now attempt to deny anyone else permission to use the > letters "BSD" in a product name, for example? The Slashdot interview with Bob Bruce should answer this. In a nutshell, the FreeBSD trademark has been turned over to the FreeBSD core team, they decide who can use it. For more info, I guess you need to approach -core. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 15: 8:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E06937B5F3 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:08:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.27.128] (dialup1286.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.233.6]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F7ECB93; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:08:09 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:32:41 +0100 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: Narvi , "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:24 PM -0800 2000/3/8, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Unfortunately one of the other attendees didn't have as much > self-restraint and spilled the beans on -stable a few days ago :-) I know, but after I told him what Jordan told me, it didn't seem to go much further than that. ;-) -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 15: 8:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 955E537B5F3 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:08:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.27.128] (dialup1286.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.233.6]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF4DCBD2; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:08:15 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:33:56 +0100 To: Brett Glass , "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:32 PM -0700 2000/3/8, Brett Glass wrote: > More to the point: What will be the effect on the ability of organizations > other than BSD, Inc. to make and sell distributions of FreeBSD? Will the > merged company now attempt to deny anyone else permission to use the > letters "BSD" in a product name, for example? It's still under the *BSD license, so anybody who wants to take it private can do so. -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 15:12:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC3CE37B69E for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:11:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13362; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:11:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000308161012.0403adb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 16:11:26 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:33 PM 3/8/2000 , Brad Knowles wrote: > It's still under the *BSD license, so anybody who wants to take it private can do so. I'm talking about the TRADEMARK. That's different. Will BSD, Inc. now insist, for example, that no one else can use BSD in a product name? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 15:46:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F050737B569; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:46:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA27035; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:46:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAGSa4M0; Wed Mar 8 16:46:00 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA15031; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:45:57 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003082345.QAA15031@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? To: blk@skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:45:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: kris@hub.freebsd.org (Kris Kennaway), narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi), dburr@borg-cube.com (Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Mar 08, 2000 11:32:41 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > At 1:24 PM -0800 2000/3/8, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > Unfortunately one of the other attendees didn't have as much > > self-restraint and spilled the beans on -stable a few days ago :-) > > I know, but after I told him what Jordan told me, it didn't seem > to go much further than that. ;-) > > -- > These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy > ========================================================================= > Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin > > Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of > this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, > be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as > a result. > > See for > details. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 15:53:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5B0F37B70F; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:53:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA28530; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:52:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA90aOK3; Wed Mar 8 16:52:46 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA15402; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:53:22 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003082353.QAA15402@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? To: blk@skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:53:22 +0000 (GMT) Cc: kris@hub.freebsd.org (Kris Kennaway), narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi), dburr@borg-cube.com (Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Mar 08, 2000 11:32:41 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ugh. Try again. > At 1:24 PM -0800 2000/3/8, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > Unfortunately one of the other attendees didn't have as much > > self-restraint and spilled the beans on -stable a few days ago :-) > > I know, but after I told him what Jordan told me, it didn't seem > to go much further than that. ;-) If you think such a merger will benefit BSD in the long run, you should all quit discussing this. I realize there is a claim that Jordan spilled the beans on an immanent deal, but in the U.S., there is an S.E.C. mandated quiet period surrounding mergers and acquisitions, even of privately held companies, since there could be stock and equity exchanges involved, etc.. A lot of noise during this period can damage the deal. You should keep quiet, until the deal is announced by someone authoritative as being final and approved. Anything else is just gossip and speculation. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 15:56:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A20D737B676 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 15:56:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.27.128] (dialup1286.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.233.6]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD86E1223B; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:56:47 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000308161012.0403adb0@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> <4.2.2.20000308161012.0403adb0@localhost> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:15:46 +0100 To: Brett Glass , "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:11 PM -0700 2000/3/8, Brett Glass wrote: > I'm talking about the TRADEMARK. That's different. Will BSD, Inc. now > insist, for example, that no one else can use BSD in a product name? Well, I guess you'd have to talk to -core, but I think you'd get some extremely violent disagreements from certain people who used to be at CSRG (Kirk McKusick?) if they were so stupid as to try to do this. The stuff I heard from Jordan this past weekend gave me every indication that people can use the code as they want (pursuant to the license), and they can use the name "BSD" however they want in their products and company names, so long as they don't try to confuse people into thinking it's FreeBSD. So, NetBSD, OpenBSD, etc... are perfectly safe. -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 16:42:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3851237B6F0 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 16:42:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA60330; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:12:07 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:12:07 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Narvi Cc: Paul Griffith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement Message-ID: <20000309111207.E58942@freebie.lemis.com> References: <38C64924.FD9B7A5F@interlog.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 8 March 2000 at 16:01:14 +0200, Narvi wrote: > > On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Paul Griffith wrote: > >> >> >> See: http://www.daemonnews.org/200003/merger.html > > It's making rounds around the world. So, where's the announcement on > -annoncement or is it just an unoffical leak? This time it's official. It's in today's Wall Street Journal. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 8 19:37:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wondermutt.net (host75-157.student.udel.edu [128.175.75.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A4B037B774 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:37:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from papalia@udel.edu) Received: from morgaine (morgaine.wondermutt.net [192.168.1.2]) by wondermutt.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA11530; Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:38:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from papalia@udel.edu) Message-Id: <4.1.20000308222226.00964760@mail.udel.edu> X-Sender: papalia@mail.udel.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 22:34:59 -0500 To: cjclark@home.com, Terry Lambert From: John Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: cjclark@home.com, Alex Zepeda , Olaf Hoyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000307213615.A73820@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> References: <200003072343.QAA04369@usr09.primenet.com> <20000305185712.H62310@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <200003072343.QAA04369@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Finally got an answer on the functionality of the oxygen sensor. Hopefully this provides some basic information that answers curiosities =) "The oxygen sensor is placed in the exhaust system very near the engine. When the sensor is heated to the correct operating temperature, it produces a voltage that varies according to the amount of oxygen present in the exhaust gas passing by it. The sensor can be called 'a galvanic battery'. The voltage varies from zero to a positive voltage on some O2 sensors, and plus/minus voltages going through zero on other O2 sensor types. Voltage generated is the sensor signal to the computer. The sensor can be constructed in different ways, but they are all similar. One common type uses a Zirconium Dioxide element in the shape of a tube, with one end bulb-shaped. Both the inside and outside of the tube are plated with platinum. The inside of the tube is vented to the atmosphere, and the outside is bombarded with hot exhaust gases. The Zirconium Dioxide, with the help of the platinum coating, transfers ions from the exhaust side to the platinum inner surface when there is O2 present in the exhaust gas. That voltage is conducted out by means of a wire attached tothe inner surface of the bulb. An outter metal shell and housing hold the sensor element in place and protected. Some of the newer O2 sensors have a heating element built into them. This sensor does not produce output until it reaches above 600 DegreesF. The incorporated heating element will heat the sensor faster and allow it to respond more quickly when the engine is running at very low output." The source from which this is quoted is: "Mitchell Automotive Fuel and Emissions Systems, Mitchell Automotive Technology Series" Mitchell International, Inc. Printed: Prentice Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ (c) 1991, ISBN # 0-13-584103-8 Hope that helps!!!! --John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 5:47:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D952B37B586 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 05:47:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA26645; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 08:47:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 08:47:33 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Haikal Saadh Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Devil on your PC! In-Reply-To: <004c01bf89cd$d72e4ce0$e0a493cb@timberwolf> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org moved to -chat where it belongs. yah I think mine is possessed by SysLog'd, N'effessio'd , and the Demon X(anth) rotfl. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Haikal Saadh wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > This is, naturally, regarding the weekly world news (or whatever..it > was on daily yesterday..) story about possessed PCs...This article is > begging to be made fun of...Fancy that..my PC is inhabited by the > daemons K'ron'd, Aynet'd, phtp'd and huttup'd. > > Any one care to pick that up? > > Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed > processing. > http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5934 > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use > > iQA/AwUBOMceRa5JfrFgmk9OEQKKawCdEdBLi2LxhSk1mgulCbtNmpq6oQ4AmgJs > uKBUoLkNPBtFq+godICXMs/d > =hYJP > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 6:13: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bne003m.webcentral.com.au (horizon3.webcentral.com.au [202.139.235.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 17ECA37B6B4 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 06:13:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 26533 invoked from network); 9 Mar 2000 14:12:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO timberwolf) (203.147.164.224) by horizon3.webcentral.com.au with SMTP; 9 Mar 2000 14:12:54 -0000 Message-ID: <000901bf89d4$f7956b60$e0a493cb@timberwolf> From: "Haikal Saadh" To: "Pat Lynch" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Devil on your PC! Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 00:36:55 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Lynch To: Haikal Saadh Cc: Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2000 11:47 PM Subject: Re: Devil on your PC! > moved to -chat where it belongs. > > yah I think mine is possessed by SysLog'd, N'effessio'd , and the > Demon X(anth) rotfl. > > -Pat > > __ > > Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net > lynch@bsdunix.net > lynch@unix.sh > lynch@blowfi.sh > Systems Administrator Rush Networking > > On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Haikal Saadh wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > This is, naturally, regarding the weekly world news (or > > whatever..it was on daily yesterday..) story about possessed > > PCs...This article is begging to be made fun of...Fancy that..my > > PC is inhabited by the daemons K'ron'd, Aynet'd, phtp'd and > > huttup'd. > > > > Any one care to pick that up? > > > > Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed > > processing. > > http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5934 > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use > > > > > > iQA/AwUBOMceRa5JfrFgmk9OEQKKawCdEdBLi2LxhSk1mgulCbtNmpq6oQ4AmgJs > > uKBUoLkNPBtFq+godICXMs/d ^^^ Fancy that! 'god' appeared in my PGP signature...coincidence? > > =hYJP > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOMcqTK5JfrFgmk9OEQK1NgCfbWgu0mRH82Xw+JnK9LwEI5zTjogAoKo9 QGc8lqxRKGlm5YJaALlK44Fs =8Nhy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 6:22: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DEA537B5DA for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 06:21:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA27034 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 16:21:22 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 16:21:21 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The Pgp Key of the Beast (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is Your Computer Possesed by a Demon? SAVANNAH, Ga. -- Your computer may be possessed by a demon, a leading minister warns. "While the Computer Age has ushered in many advances, it has also opened yet another door through which Lucifer and his minions can enter and corrupt men's souls," said the Reverend Jim Peasboro, author of an upcoming book, The Devil in the Machine. Demons are able to possess anything with a brain, from a chicken to a human being. And today's thinking machines have enough space on their hard drives to accommodate Satan or his pals. "Any PC built after 1985 has the storage capacity to house an evil spirit," the minister confirmed. The Savannah clergyman says he became aware of the problem from counseling churchgoers. "I learned that many members of my congregation became in touch with a dark force whenever they used their computers," he said. "Decent, happily married family men were drawn irresistibly to pornographic websites and forced to witness unspeakable abominations. "Housewives who had never expressed an impure thought were entering Internet chat rooms and found themselves spewing foul, debasing language they would never use normally. "One woman wept as she confessed to me, 'I feel when I'm on the computer as if someone else or something else just takes over.' " The minister said he probed one such case, actually logging onto the parishioner's computer himself. To his surprise, an artificial-intelligence program fired up -- without him clicking it on. "The program began talking directly to me, openly mocked me," he recalls. "It typed out, 'Preacher, you are a weakling and your God is a damn liar.' " Then the device went haywire and started printing out what looked like gobbledygook. "I later had an expert in dead languages examine the text," the minister said. "It turned out to be a stream of obscenities written in a 2,800-year-old Mesopotamian dialect!" Since, then, Rev. Peasboro has researched the problem further and uncovered alarming facts. "I learned most of the youths involved in school shootings like the tragedy at Columbine were computer buffs," he said. "I have no doubt that computer demons exerted an influence on them." The minister estimates that one in 10 computers in America now houses some type of evil spirit. Rev. Peasboro advises that if you suspect your computer is possessed, you consult a clergyman or, if the computer is still under warranty, take it in for servicing. He says, "Technicians can replace the hard drive and reinstall the software, getting rid of the wicked spirit permanently." ______________________________________________________________________________ From: Brooks_Talley >Housewives who had never expressed an impure >thought were entering Internet chat rooms and >found themselves spewing foul, debasing language >they would never use normally I guess that begs the question: is anonymity Satanic? >The minister estimates that one in 10 computers >in America now houses some type of evil spirit And I definitely think I'm running much higher than that 1 in 10 number. As a matter of fact, I'm batting 1000. Perhaps more, since several of my systems seem to be inhabited by whole families of evil spirits. ______________________________________________________________________________ From: Andy Hickmott > "Any PC built after 1985 has the storage capacity to house an > evil spirit," the minister confirmed. This puts the storage requirements of your basic possessin' devil at somewhere under 40M. The article, unfortunately, does not reveal the CRC of the Beast. ______________________________________________________________________________ From: Luke McGuff Sounds like Satan's hardware requirements are less stringent than Windows 98's. ______________________________________________________________________________ From: Todd Larason You missed the best quote! "Rev. Peasboro advises that if you suspect your computer is possessed, you consult a clergyman or, if the computer is still under warranty, take it in for servicing." I've been laughing all day at the image of some poor joe at CompUSA or Frye's dealing with a customer insisting that the warranty covers exorcisms. ______________________________________________________________________________ From: Steve Lamont > >The minister estimates that one in 10 computers > >in America now houses some type of evil spirit > > And I definitely think I'm running much higher than that > 1 in 10 number. As a matter of fact, I'm batting 1000. > Perhaps more, since several of my systems seem to be > inhabited by whole families of evil spirits. I thought Microsoft's market share was vastly more that 1 in 10. spl ______________________________________________________________________________ From: Anne M Merritt >>The minister estimates that one in 10 computers >>in America now houses some type of evil spirit >And I definitely think I'm running much higher than that >1 in 10 number. As a matter of fact, I'm batting 1000. >Perhaps more, since several of my systems seem to be >inhabited by whole families of evil spirits. > >-b It's the network - the possessed computers themselves aren't the problem specifically. You can exorcise your systems of evil spirits all you like, but until you can work the non-productive daemons (after all, some daemons are welcome) out of the network, they'll always come back into the systems. Find yourself a Caribbean (preferably from Jamaica or Haiti) sysadmin - he/she will know what to do. Anne Marie ______________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 7: 5:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CF9A37B6CF for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 07:05:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbryant@ppp-207-193-0-141.kscymo.swbell.net) Received: from ppp-207-193-0-141.kscymo.swbell.net ([207.193.0.141]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FR500FO1TW0WY@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:04:52 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by ppp-207-193-0-141.kscymo.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) id JAA21430; Thu, 09 Mar 2000 09:04:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 09:04:34 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Bryant Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-reply-to: <200003082353.QAA15402@usr02.primenet.com> To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Cc: blk@skynet.be, kris@hub.freebsd.org, narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, dburr@borg-cube.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: kc5vdj@swbell.net Message-id: <200003091504.JAA21430@ppp-207-193-0-141.kscymo.swbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Windows: R00LZ!@# MS-Winbl0wz DR00LZ!@# X-files: The truth is that the X-Files is fiction X-Republican: The best kind!!! X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT #8: Sat Oct 30 00:56:56 CDT 1999 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In reply: > You should keep quiet, until the deal is announced by someone > authoritative as being final and approved. Anything else is just > gossip and speculation. i think someone already posted that this has already made it into the wall street journal. jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ KC5VDJ - HF to 23cm KC5VDJ@NW0I.#NEKS.KS.USA.NOAM kc5vdj@swbell.net IC-706MkII, IC-T81A, HTX-202, HTX-212, HTX-404, KPC3+, PK-232MBX Grid: EM28px ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ET has one helluva sense of humor, always anal-probing right-wing schizos! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 7: 9:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D24C37B74A; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 07:09:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA28531; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 17:08:48 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 17:08:48 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: kc5vdj@swbell.net Cc: Terry Lambert , blk@skynet.be, kris@hub.freebsd.org, dburr@borg-cube.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: <200003091504.JAA21430@ppp-207-193-0-141.kscymo.swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Jim Bryant wrote: > In reply: > > You should keep quiet, until the deal is announced by someone > > authoritative as being final and approved. Anything else is just > > gossip and speculation. > > i think someone already posted that this has already made it into the > wall street journal. > Given Greg's error rate, it is a safe bet that it did. > jim > -- > All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, > think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or > radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > KC5VDJ - HF to 23cm KC5VDJ@NW0I.#NEKS.KS.USA.NOAM kc5vdj@swbell.net > IC-706MkII, IC-T81A, HTX-202, HTX-212, HTX-404, KPC3+, PK-232MBX Grid: EM28px > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ET has one helluva sense of humor, always anal-probing right-wing schizos! > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 8:37:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from paris.dppl.com (paris.dppl.com [205.230.74.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19D2937B7E3 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 08:37:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yds@dppl.com) Received: from dppl.com (avs.medianow.com [216.182.7.89]) by paris.dppl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D6F19645 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:37:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38C7D332.8760088E@dppl.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 11:37:06 -0500 From: Yarema X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en, uk, ru, ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: BSD, BSD/OS, and BSDI are trademarks of Berkeley Software Design, Inc. References: <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> <4.2.2.20000308161012.0403adb0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 4:11 PM -0700 2000/3/8, Brett Glass wrote: > > > I'm talking about the TRADEMARK. That's different. Will BSD, Inc. now > > insist, for example, that no one else can use BSD in a product name? > > Well, I guess you'd have to talk to -core, but I think you'd get > some extremely violent disagreements from certain people who used to > be at CSRG (Kirk McKusick?) if they were so stupid as to try to do > this. This has been covered in the past. And why would Kirk be upset? Isn't he (at least sometimes) employed by BSDI. For instance the last paragraph at http://www.bsdi.com/press/19991213a.mhtml states "BSD, BSD/OS, and BSDI are trademarks of Berkeley Software Design, Inc." Search the freebsd-chat for 'BSD and trademark' and specifically look at: On 13 Apr 1998, David Greenman wrote: > >At 09:42 PM 4/12/98 -0700, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > > >>Don't forget that "BSD" is a registered trademark of BSD, Inc. > > > >I was under the impression that without the "I" or "Inc." immediately > >following the letters "BSD," it was NOT their trademark. > > That would be a bad impression, then. "BSD" is a registered trademark > of Berkeley Software Design, Inc. "FreeBSD", "NetBSD", and "OpenBSD" are > also seperately trademarked by various entities - these were all given > away to each of these groups by BSDI. Creating another "BSD", even if > it were just a name change, would be a significant legal problem, not > mention a major marketing mistake. It's taken us five years to get the > name recognition that we have now, and changing the name now would be > suicide. > > -DG > > David Greenman > Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=142858+144948+/usr/local/www/db/text/1998/freebsd-chat/19980412.freebsd-chat Brad Knowles wrote: > > So, NetBSD, OpenBSD, etc... are perfectly safe. > According to the above, yes. They were all given permission by BSDI to use BSD in their names. And that includes FreeBSD. If BSDI does not show due dilligence in protecting their trademarks they may lose them. Which would be a Bad Thing since Microsoft or the FSF or Sun would be able to misuse the name any way they like. On the other hand BSDI's ownership of the BSD trademark has done no harm all these years, so why worry now? Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with any BSDs. The above is just my opinion based on my ability to read the material I quoted. -- Yarema To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 8:58:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C63737B68C for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 08:58:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA42038 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 08:58:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 08:58:41 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Headcount for March BAFUG, San Francisco Message-ID: <20000309085841.B42010@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday 6pm it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 9:34:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6684937B7A9 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:33:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA64301; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 17:33:13 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 17:33:13 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Message-ID: <20000309173313.A52244@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.3.0.20000308085724.00b0f000@mail.borg-cube.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000308085724.00b0f000@mail.borg-cube.com>; from Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/ on Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 09:18:54AM -0800 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 09:18:54AM -0800, Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/ wrote: > - dburr (watching the /. trolls emerge from underneath their rocks and > other slimy > places, wheeeee! :)) FWIW, I thought the announcement on Slashdot yesterday produced a lot of good comments. Of course, today, the trolls have recovered from the shock, and are taking the opportunity to take over the Bob Bruce interview N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 9:49:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FA8037B7D2; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:49:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25231CD4C; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 18:49:40 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000309173313.A52244@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.3.0.20000308085724.00b0f000@mail.borg-cube.com> <20000309173313.A52244@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 18:48:51 +0100 To: Nik Clayton , "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:33 PM +0000 2000/3/9, Nik Clayton wrote: > FWIW, I thought the announcement on Slashdot yesterday produced a lot of > good comments. I got on there early and tried my best to give good answers to certain questions. I don't know if this had an effect or if it was just the phase of the moon that things wound up being as good as they did, but I'd like to think I helped. I can say that my /karma increased a decent amount, because I got moderated up on at least a couple of responses. ;-) > Of course, today, the trolls have recovered from the shock, and are taking > the opportunity to take over the Bob Bruce interview Sorry guy, there's only so much I can do. ;-) -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 13:22: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7A3337B83B; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 13:21:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29709; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 16:21:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 16:21:43 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Nik Clayton Cc: "Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: <20000309173313.A52244@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ahhh don;t worry about it.... hey nik, guess who;s the new sysadmin at Andover? =) =) __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 09:18:54AM -0800, Donald Burr of Borg - http://www.borg-cube.com/ wrote: > > - dburr (watching the /. trolls emerge from underneath their rocks and > > other slimy > > places, wheeeee! :)) > > FWIW, I thought the announcement on Slashdot yesterday produced a lot of > good comments. > > Of course, today, the trolls have recovered from the shock, and are taking > the opportunity to take over the Bob Bruce interview > > N > -- > Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. > Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, > hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. > Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. > -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 13:30:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9322437B83B for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 13:30:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25963; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:30:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000309143008.040b3800@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 14:30:35 -0700 To: Pat Lynch From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20000309173313.A52244@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pat, does this mean you're leaving New York? --Brett At 02:21 PM 3/9/2000 , Pat Lynch wrote: >ahhh don;t worry about it.... > >hey nik, guess who;s the new sysadmin at Andover? =) =) > >__ > >Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net > lynch@bsdunix.net > lynch@unix.sh > lynch@blowfi.sh >Systems Administrator Rush Networking > >On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Nik Clayton wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 09:18:54AM -0800, Donald Burr of Borg - > http://www.borg-cube.com/ wrote: > > > - dburr (watching the /. trolls emerge from underneath their rocks and > > > other slimy > > > places, wheeeee! :)) > > > > FWIW, I thought the announcement on Slashdot yesterday produced a lot of > > good comments. > > > > Of course, today, the trolls have recovered from the shock, and are taking > > the opportunity to take over the Bob Bruce interview > > > > N > > -- > > Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. > > Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, > > hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. > > Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. > > -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 13:55:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91B0837BA35 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 13:55:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA05199; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:54:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAyYaack; Thu Mar 9 14:54:36 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18296; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:54:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003092154.OAA18296@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 21:54:50 +0000 (GMT) Cc: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi), paulg@interlog.com (Paul Griffith), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000309111207.E58942@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Mar 09, 2000 11:12:07 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Wednesday, 8 March 2000 at 16:01:14 +0200, Narvi wrote: > > On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Paul Griffith wrote: > >> See: http://www.daemonnews.org/200003/merger.html > > > > It's making rounds around the world. So, where's the announcement on > > -annoncement or is it just an unoffical leak? > > This time it's official. It's in today's Wall Street Journal. I stand corrected. You may all resume useless speculation... 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 13:59:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7522237B9BF; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 13:59:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA26460; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:58:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA7VaaPZ; Thu Mar 9 14:58:46 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18513; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:58:56 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003092158.OAA18513@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 21:58:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: kc5vdj@swbell.net, tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), blk@skynet.be, kris@hub.freebsd.org, dburr@borg-cube.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Mar 09, 2000 05:08:48 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Jim Bryant wrote: > > > In reply: > > > You should keep quiet, until the deal is announced by someone > > > authoritative as being final and approved. Anything else is just > > > gossip and speculation. > > > > i think someone already posted that this has already made it into the > > wall street journal. > > > > Given Greg's error rate, it is a safe bet that it did. Yes, yes, I saw it when I got home. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 14:17:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from katroo.Sendmail.COM (katroo.Sendmail.COM [209.246.26.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4C0A37B877 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:17:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@sendmail.com) Received: from hodgepodge.Sendmail.COM (hodgepodge.Sendmail.COM [10.210.100.101]) by katroo.Sendmail.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09788 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:17:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by hodgepodge.Sendmail.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA06104 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:17:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:17:33 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: UPDATE : March meeting of San Francisco chapter of BAFUG Message-ID: <20000309141733.B5953@hodgepodge.Sendmail.COM> Reply-To: jgrosch@sendmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -- San Francisco BAFUG -- (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) March 2000 Meeting -- UPDATE -- The San Francisco chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding its monthly meeting on Thursday, March 9th. This month's meeting will be held at Whistle's corp. office in Foster City. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda : ==> Our main speaker is Jordan Hubbard, who will be discussing the announced merger between Walnut Creek and BSDI and what this will mean to FreeBSD ==> Josef Grosch and Nicole Harrington will talk about BAFUG's plans for the Install-A-Thon at the Cow Palace in Daly City on March 25th. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location : This months meeting will be held at Whistle Communications. Whistle is located at 110 Marsh Dr. in Foster City. There is plenty parking in their lot. Time : The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions : By CalTrain : Exit at the downtown San Mateo station, and walk several miles east on Third Avenue to the Marsh Drive intersection. Alternatively, exit at the Bay Meadows station and take the SanTrans Route 251 Hillsdale - Foster City bus to the Bridgepoint Shopping Center stop and walk 1/4 mile north on Mariner's Island Blvd. to Third Avenue, turning right one block to Marsh Drive. By SamTrans : The Route 251 Hillsdale - Foster City bus line's Bridgepoint Shopping Center terminus is a few blocks from Whistle Communications. By Car : From the South Bay and Peninsula : Take 101 North towards San Francisco, From US-101 northbound, take CA-92 eastbound a mile to the Foster City Blvd., turning left (east) at the end of the ramp onto Metro Center Blvd. Go about a block and turn left (north-east) onto Foster City Blvd. Go about five blocks to the street's end, turning left (north) onto Third Avenue. Go about a block to turn left (west) at the first traffic light, onto Marsh Drive. Immediately turn left into the Whistle parking lot. From the East Bay : From CA-92/Hayward, cross the San Mateo Bridge and take the first exit Foster City Blvd., curving right at the end of the ramp to a left (north-east) turn onto Foster City Blvd. Then process as described above for US-101 northbound. From the North Bay and San Francisco : From US-101 southbound, exit eastbound onto Third Avenue proceeding several miles, past the Mariner's Island Blvd. intersection, to turn right (west) onto Marsh Drive. Immediately turn left into the Whistle parking lot. WWW info : More info can be found at the following URLs Whistle Communications - http://www.whistle.com BAFUG - http://www.bafug.org Contact : Please contact either Nicole Harrington or Josef Grosch on or before March 9th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 jgrosch@Sendmail.COM | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 15: 0: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EDDE37B865 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:59:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([168.176.3.51]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA4070 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 17:58:37 -0500 Message-ID: <38C810A4.BE0AD747@asme.org> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 15:59:16 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement References: <38C64924.FD9B7A5F@interlog.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The announcement, of course rocks! Congratulations to the WC/BSDI people for such a brilliant idea. It is too early to think of these things, but I (and surely many other BSD fans) am hoping that after BSDI merge their code, NetBSD and OpenBSD join (code and teams) with FreeBSD. Both NetBSD and OpenBSD are great operating systems, their code would complement very well the existing codebase and together we could focus better on even more interesting features. Some years ago this was unthinkable, today we are very near; I hope we don't lose this opportunity because of our selfishness. Sure, deciding what goes in a unified BSD system is a difficult task, especially when people have worked for decades on certain projects, but we have much to gain in this effort. So many brilliant hackers together, surely it would be the envy of any organization ! Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 17:34:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3EE37B8D5 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 17:34:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([168.176.3.60]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA55CA for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:34:21 -0500 Message-ID: <38C850AC.4C0D1DF7@asme.org> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 20:32:28 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement References: <200003092154.OAA18296@usr01.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Now it's officially official :) http://www.bsdi.com/press/20000310.mhtml cheers, Pedro. Terry Lambert wrote: > > > On Wednesday, 8 March 2000 at 16:01:14 +0200, Narvi wrote: > > > On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Paul Griffith wrote: > > >> See: http://www.daemonnews.org/200003/merger.html > > > > > > It's making rounds around the world. So, where's the announcement on > > > -annoncement or is it just an unoffical leak? > > > > This time it's official. It's in today's Wall Street Journal. > > I stand corrected. > > You may all resume useless speculation... 8-). > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 18:28:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CC5D37B8DF for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 18:28:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([207.193.40.156]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FR600FFEPJOSJ@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:28:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA00852; Thu, 09 Mar 2000 20:17:02 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 20:17:02 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-reply-to: <200003092158.OAA18513@usr01.primenet.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: [snip] >> Given Greg's error rate, it is a safe bet that it did. > >Yes, yes, I saw it when I got home. So, Terry, are there any rumblings inside IBM about this? -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 18:41: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.on.home.com (ha1.rdc1.on.wave.home.com [24.2.9.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9966B37B91A for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 18:40:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from interlog.com ([24.65.50.161]) by mail.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <20000310024057.LNAF16527.mail.rdc1.on.home.com@interlog.com>; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 18:40:57 -0800 Message-ID: <38C85D34.9BB2B97F@interlog.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 21:25:56 -0500 From: Paul Griffith Organization: CDG Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement References: <200003092154.OAA18296@usr01.primenet.com> <38C850AC.4C0D1DF7@asme.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What about this: BSDI also announced that Yahoo! Inc. will take an equity interest in the new company. BSDI will leverage the equity interest to execute on its plan to build a bridge between open source innovation and commercial requirements. The equity position will be used to grow BSDI's presence as a leading provider of the most advanced Internet operating systems for the Internet infrastructure. How about an IPO? :-) "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > Now it's officially official :) > > http://www.bsdi.com/press/20000310.mhtml > > cheers, > Pedro. -- Paul Griffith paulg@interlog.com | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 22:36:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F68237B92D for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 22:36:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.234.238] (dialup1774.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.234.238]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CE83CD68; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:36:31 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38C810A4.BE0AD747@asme.org> References: <38C64924.FD9B7A5F@interlog.com> <38C810A4.BE0AD747@asme.org> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:33:25 +0100 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:59 PM -0500 2000/3/9, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > It is too early to think of these things, but I (and surely many other > BSD fans) am hoping that after BSDI merge their code, NetBSD and OpenBSD > join (code and teams) with FreeBSD. The FreeBSD code will certainly be there if NetBSD and OpenBSD would like to make use of it. And from what I heard at the NLFUG meeting this weekend, Jordan (and many others) would like very much to start working more closely with the NetBSD and OpenBSD developers, with the potential for unifying codebases at some point in time in the future. However, anyone who has been involved with this process for a while can tell you that there are some significant personality issues involved (heck, if you were watching daily.daemonnews.org, you saw that -- the only remains can be found at ). I believe that the FreeBSD folks are going to make a concerted effort to try to work more closely with both NetBSD and OpenBSD developers, however people are going to have to meet them half way. From Jordan's comments, BSD, Inc. is *very* well aware of how important it is to keep a single brand image and to avoid even the appearance of internal fracturing, but there is only so much they can do by themselves. For whatever reason, Linux can have eleventy bazillion distributions, and yet all of them can still be viewed as "Linux", and therefore there is no apparent internal fracturing. There are just four major different versions of BSD that I am aware of, and while their differences are more on par with Linux distributions than anything else, they still get their heads served to them on a platter for not pulling together. I just don't get it. -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 22:42:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sprig.tougas.net (h24-66-217-148.xx.wave.shaw.ca [24.66.217.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF3B037B92D for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 22:42:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtougas@sprig.tougas.net) Received: (from dtougas@localhost) by sprig.tougas.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA16947 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 23:44:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dtougas) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 23:44:36 -0700 From: Damien Tougas To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Looking for laptop opinions/experiences Message-ID: <20000309234436.A16923@tougas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, I am looking at buying a laptop, and was wondering if anyone has had any experiences (good or bad) that they would care to share with regards to hardware compatibility. Video problems? NIC problems? Etc. Is it better to have a separate pcmcia card for modem and lan or are the combo cards ok? Is there a brand of lan cards that people have had problems getting running under FreeBSD? Any nuggets that can be provided would be of great help to me in deciding what it is that I should look at purchasing. Thanks. -- Damien Tougas, P.Eng. Phone: (780)434-5889 Fax: (780)434-5889 E-mail: damien@tougas.net http://www.tougas.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 23:12:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from portjeff.net (mail.portjeff.net [207.198.250.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C623F37B911 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 23:12:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@nerdlabs.com) Received: from nerdlabs.com [24.129.14.55] by portjeff.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id A11776DB0218; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:15:35 -0500 Message-ID: <38C89DC5.46A82AF1@nerdlabs.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:01:25 +0000 From: Paul Dlug X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.5-15 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Damien Tougas Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Looking for laptop opinions/experiences References: <20000309234436.A16923@tougas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have a Sony VAIO F350 I bought in december. Compatbility wise it's been pretty good, I have 3.3 on it with PAO (http://www.jp.freebsd.org/PAO/) which supports my Linksys PCMCIA NIC quite well. The neomagic chipset on it is supported by xfree and works just fine at 1024x768. I would reccommend this laptop highly if the hard drive hadn't failed two days ago :-) Other than that 'minor' detail I would say I'm completely satisfied with it. Damien Tougas wrote: > > Hello, > > I am looking at buying a laptop, and was wondering if anyone has had > any experiences (good or bad) that they would care to share with > regards to hardware compatibility. Video problems? NIC problems? Etc. > Is it better to have a separate pcmcia card for modem and lan or are > the combo cards ok? Is there a brand of lan cards that people have had > problems getting running under FreeBSD? Any nuggets that can be > provided would be of great help to me in deciding what it is that I > should look at purchasing. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 23:27:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B11A37B569 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 23:27:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01313; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 00:27:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000310002653.04504a00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 00:27:10 -0700 To: Paul Dlug , Damien Tougas From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Looking for laptop opinions/experiences Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38C89DC5.46A82AF1@nerdlabs.com> References: <20000309234436.A16923@tougas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What about sound? --Brett At 12:01 AM 3/10/2000 , Paul Dlug wrote: >I have a Sony VAIO F350 I bought in december. Compatbility wise it's >been pretty good, I have 3.3 on it with PAO >(http://www.jp.freebsd.org/PAO/) which supports my Linksys PCMCIA NIC >quite well. The neomagic chipset on it is supported by xfree and works >just fine at 1024x768. I would reccommend this laptop highly if the hard >drive hadn't failed two days ago :-) Other than that 'minor' detail I >would say I'm completely satisfied with it. > > >Damien Tougas wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I am looking at buying a laptop, and was wondering if anyone has had > > any experiences (good or bad) that they would care to share with > > regards to hardware compatibility. Video problems? NIC problems? Etc. > > Is it better to have a separate pcmcia card for modem and lan or are > > the combo cards ok? Is there a brand of lan cards that people have had > > problems getting running under FreeBSD? Any nuggets that can be > > provided would be of great help to me in deciding what it is that I > > should look at purchasing. > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 23:33:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from portjeff.net (mail.portjeff.net [207.198.250.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA8137B958 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 23:33:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@nerdlabs.com) Received: from nerdlabs.com [24.129.14.55] by portjeff.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id A604A4E021A; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:36:36 -0500 Message-ID: <38C8A2B2.669B224C@nerdlabs.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:22:26 +0000 From: Paul Dlug X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.5-15 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Damien Tougas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Looking for laptop opinions/experiences References: <20000309234436.A16923@tougas.net> <4.2.2.20000310002653.04504a00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To be honest with you I never bothered to try it, sound has always been low on my priority list :-) Brett Glass wrote: > > What about sound? > > --Brett > > At 12:01 AM 3/10/2000 , Paul Dlug wrote: > > >I have a Sony VAIO F350 I bought in december. Compatbility wise it's > >been pretty good, I have 3.3 on it with PAO > >(http://www.jp.freebsd.org/PAO/) which supports my Linksys PCMCIA NIC > >quite well. The neomagic chipset on it is supported by xfree and works > >just fine at 1024x768. I would reccommend this laptop highly if the hard > >drive hadn't failed two days ago :-) Other than that 'minor' detail I > >would say I'm completely satisfied with it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 9 23:48:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fb01.eng00.mindspring.net (fb01.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.229.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB60437B97B for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 23:48:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qthjc.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.198.108]) by fb01.eng00.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA00484; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:48:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA02509; Thu, 9 Mar 2000 23:52:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) To: giffunip@asme.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement In-Reply-To: <38C810A4.BE0AD747@asme.org> References: <38C64924.FD9B7A5F@interlog.com> <38C810A4.BE0AD747@asme.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on XEmacs 21.1 (Bryce Canyon) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000309235232L.jhix@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 23:52:32 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 990905(IM130) Lines: 15 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" [snip] > Some years ago this was unthinkable, today we are very near; I hope we > don't lose this opportunity because of our selfishness. Sure, deciding > what goes in a unified BSD system is a difficult task, especially when > people have worked for decades on certain projects, but we have much to > gain in this effort. So many brilliant hackers together, surely it would > be the envy of any organization ! Wise words. I agree wholeheartedly. Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 0:27:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E7BE37B97B for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 00:27:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA40008; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:27:18 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:27:18 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 3:59 PM -0500 2000/3/9, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > > It is too early to think of these things, but I (and surely many other > > BSD fans) am hoping that after BSDI merge their code, NetBSD and OpenBSD > > join (code and teams) with FreeBSD. > > The FreeBSD code will certainly be there if NetBSD and OpenBSD > would like to make use of it. And from what I heard at the NLFUG > meeting this weekend, Jordan (and many others) would like very much > to start working more closely with the NetBSD and OpenBSD developers, > with the potential for unifying codebases at some point in time in > the future. > Go 4.5BSD, Go! > However, anyone who has been involved with this process for a > while can tell you that there are some significant personality issues > involved (heck, if you were watching daily.daemonnews.org, you saw > that -- the only remains can be found at > ). > > Anybody involved for even slightly more than shortly has probably seen a flamewar or two. Even if they have become much more rare than they used to be (a good thing). > I believe that the FreeBSD folks are going to make a concerted > effort to try to work more closely with both NetBSD and OpenBSD > developers, however people are going to have to meet them half way. > > From Jordan's comments, BSD, Inc. is *very* well aware of how > important it is to keep a single brand image and to avoid even the > appearance of internal fracturing, but there is only so much they can > do by themselves. > > > For whatever reason, Linux can have eleventy bazillion > distributions, and yet all of them can still be viewed as "Linux", > and therefore there is no apparent internal fracturing. > > There are just four major different versions of BSD that I am > aware of, and while their differences are more on par with Linux > distributions than anything else, they still get their heads served > to them on a platter for not pulling together. > > I just don't get it. > They are just plain hypocritical. > -- > These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy > ========================================================================= > Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin > > Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of > this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, > be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as > a result. > > See for > details. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 1: 1:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E903F37B98B for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 01:01:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8044CDD6; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:01:22 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:58:27 +0100 To: Narvi From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:27 AM +0200 2000/3/10, Narvi wrote: > Go 4.5BSD, Go! No, that would probably have to be more like 6.0BSD, because FreeBSD 5.0 is going to be the merged FreeBSD & BSD/OS codebase. > Anybody involved for even slightly more than shortly has probably seen a > flamewar or two. Even if they have become much more rare than they used to > be (a good thing). My understanding is that this has gone *way* beyond a flamewar, and has gotten intensely personal. We're talking serious threats of bodily harm. If we can find a way to put this behind us, or work around this problem, then I think there may be a chance that we could actually potentially see a merged codebase from all the major members of the *BSD family. -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 1:32:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BA8037B99A for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 01:32:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA60397; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 04:31:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 04:31:54 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: giffunip@asme.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement In-Reply-To: <20000309235232L.jhix@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" > [snip] > > Some years ago this was unthinkable, today we are very near; I hope we > > don't lose this opportunity because of our selfishness. Sure, deciding > > what goes in a unified BSD system is a difficult task, especially when > > people have worked for decades on certain projects, but we have much to > > gain in this effort. So many brilliant hackers together, surely it would > > be the envy of any organization ! > > Wise words. I agree wholeheartedly. While I think we can all dream about a 'Unified BSD' the reality is that its not really necessary. Giving people enough room to do the things they want is important and I think the 3 projects provide this room quite nicely. I think that userland interface compatibility is an atainable and desirable goal that benefits all equally. Its important that FreeBSD not present the appearance of 'strongarming' OpenBSD and NetBSD into 'compliance'. Application portability will help all projects equally and will ultimately allow users of all 3 systems to stand and be counted as one when it comes time for a commercial software vendor to port their software. Another area of mutual benefit is the ports system and while each OS uses different tools and implementations in their build/install/package system the patches and other meta-information is likely to be sharable. Wouldn't it be nice if we had a unified ports tree? Again, its important that we don't try and force a FreeBSD view of the world on NetBSD and OpenBSD; they should be free to use their own tools and local policies for building and installing. If we had users/developers from all 3 projects working on maintaining the ports/pkgsrc/foo tree we'd probably be in a better position to keep it up to date. Maybe its time to split the ports tree off into its own project? I know the last time such a thing was discussed the other projects rejected the idea fearing that they would lack representation in something that was essentially FreeBSD centric. What are the solutions to this problem? -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 1:36:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 926DF37B574 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 01:36:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA41277; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:35:53 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:35:53 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:27 AM +0200 2000/3/10, Narvi wrote: > > > Go 4.5BSD, Go! > > No, that would probably have to be more like 6.0BSD, because > FreeBSD 5.0 is going to be the merged FreeBSD & BSD/OS codebase. > No-no-no. 4.5BSD as in the 'again-unified' decendant of 4.4BSD. Possibly 5.0BSD if people want to signify a new start. But 'gratis' movement in versioning numbering imho sucks. > > Anybody involved for even slightly more than shortly has probably seen a > > flamewar or two. Even if they have become much more rare than they used to > > be (a good thing). > > My understanding is that this has gone *way* beyond a flamewar, > and has gotten intensely personal. We're talking serious threats of > bodily harm. > Definately. The persons in question start a flame whenever they get close enough. Think of the mix of said persons of as say the mix of sawdust and liquid oxygen in a tight package 8-) > If we can find a way to put this behind us, or work around this > problem, then I think there may be a chance that we could actually > potentially see a merged codebase from all the major members of the > *BSD family. > We can have it if we do the merging-in ourselves. It's just not overly realistic. > -- > These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy > ========================================================================= > Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin > > Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of > this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, > be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as > a result. > > See for > details. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 1:57:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A70037B99C for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 01:57:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1D62CDFF; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:57:44 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:51:27 +0100 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" , W Gerald Hicks From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement Cc: giffunip@asme.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:31 AM -0500 2000/3/10, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > If we had users/developers from all 3 projects > working on maintaining the ports/pkgsrc/foo tree we'd probably be in a > better position to keep it up to date. Maybe its time to split the ports > tree off into its own project? How's this for a radical idea -- split the ports tree off into its own project, and work with various folks from the Linux camp to come up with a single unified ports/package maintenance system? Now, I'm sure you're wondering who the radical is that came up with this idea -- the answer is that I don't know. However, I can tell you who recently mentioned it this past weekend at the NLFUG meeting as one of the things they're in very serious talks about actually doing -- "Jordan K. Hubbard" himself. See, these guys aren't so dumb, after all. Maybe you might want to give them a break? ;-) ;-) ;-) -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 2: 7:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from manchaca.ece.utexas.edu (manchaca.ece.utexas.edu [128.83.59.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F52537B99D; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:07:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwu@tick.ece.utexas.edu) Received: from tick.ece.utexas.edu (tick.ece.utexas.edu [128.83.59.31]) by manchaca.ece.utexas.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA04252; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 04:07:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 04:07:36 -0600 (CST) From: Michael Chin-yuan Wu To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Organizing a Texas FreeBSD User Group Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry for the repeats, having trouble with smtp-server.san.rr.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello Everyone: Reply to keichii@mail.utexas.edu please :) I have been thinking about organizing a FreeBSD user group for the Dallas/Ft. Worth, Houston, Austin, San Antonio and surrounding cities. (Sorry El Paso people, but 8 hour drives don't seem to be feasible. You are welcome to come to our meetings though ;) ) Someone has offered me access to majordomo and http service. However, I was wondering if anyone is interested in: A: Providing or helping to search for meeting place B: Providing admin/design for majordomo/httpd [This should be just an one time job with only webpage updates.] C: Coming to the meetings :) D: Sponsor some food/drinks (We could just have everyone bring some food/drinks + their computers) If you or someone you know is/could be interested, please feel free to spam my mailbox keichii@mail.utexas.edu :) - -- ]MQ@AoQu}C Strive for the very best; The outcome is not important. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.2 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOMiZN4+pn6xwqVlNEQINSgCghXnW3jLIGOtUH7X5gPB55AQ0I5oAn0Vj JW8ZrNMwYzwoWhOr2sPFHZuY =6DqZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 2:15:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E93237B924 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:15:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA41979; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:13:32 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:13:32 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: W Gerald Hicks , giffunip@asme.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" > > [snip] > > > Some years ago this was unthinkable, today we are very near; I hope we > > > don't lose this opportunity because of our selfishness. Sure, deciding > > > what goes in a unified BSD system is a difficult task, especially when > > > people have worked for decades on certain projects, but we have much to > > > gain in this effort. So many brilliant hackers together, surely it would > > > be the envy of any organization ! > > > > Wise words. I agree wholeheartedly. > > While I think we can all dream about a 'Unified BSD' the reality is that > its not really necessary. Giving people enough room to do the things they > want is important and I think the 3 projects provide this room quite > nicely. > Different people have diverging interests/needs. The only form in which unified bsd could probably exist is a 'point release' or modularised hodgepodge from which to start diverging again. What would be the opint of unifying UVM and FreeBSD VM, for example? > I think that userland interface compatibility is an atainable and > desirable goal that benefits all equally. Its important that FreeBSD not > present the appearance of 'strongarming' OpenBSD and NetBSD into > 'compliance'. Application portability will help all projects equally and > will ultimately allow users of all 3 systems to stand and be counted as > one when it comes time for a commercial software vendor to port their > software. > Hah. As soon as there is even the slightliest hint of 'we tell you what to do' a real mudfight will go off. It's a lucky thing if it doesn't go off even in response to this thread. > Another area of mutual benefit is the ports system and while each OS uses > different tools and implementations in their build/install/package system > the patches and other meta-information is likely to be sharable. Wouldn't > it be nice if we had a unified ports tree? Again, its important that we > don't try and force a FreeBSD view of the world on NetBSD and > OpenBSD; they should be free to use their own tools and local policies for > building and installing. If we had users/developers from all 3 projects > working on maintaining the ports/pkgsrc/foo tree we'd probably be in a > better position to keep it up to date. Maybe its time to split the ports > tree off into its own project? I know the last time such a thing was > discussed the other projects rejected the idea fearing that they would > lack representation in something that was essentially FreeBSD > centric. What are the solutions to this problem? > Divorcing the port system from FreeBSD, I am afraid, is indeed needed for such to work out. > -- > | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | > | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | > | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 2:25:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FED137B9A1; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:25:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC08FCD8B; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:25:05 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:23:59 +0100 To: Michael Chin-yuan Wu , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Organizing a Texas FreeBSD User Group Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:07 AM -0600 2000/3/10, Michael Chin-yuan Wu wrote: > B: Providing admin/design for majordomo/httpd [This should be > just an one time job with only webpage updates.] Speaking as someone who has been involved with dc.sage (the SAGE local group in the Washington, DC area) for a while, I can tell you for a fact that this is not a realistic expectation. You need to keep your web pages up-to-date, because this is an important method of communicating information to your members. Otherwise, I wish you all the best! -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 2:30:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC10A37B99A for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:30:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA05604; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 03:02:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 03:02:15 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Narvi Cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" , W Gerald Hicks , giffunip@asme.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement Message-ID: <20000310030214.I14279@fw.wintelcom.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 12:13:32PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Narvi [000310 02:47] wrote: > > What would be the opint of unifying UVM and FreeBSD VM, for example? Actually, it could be a good thing, supposedly UVM offers a much nicer programming model which makes it much more flexible and FreeBSD's vm acutally has realized a unified vm/buffercache. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 2:36:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.cdrom.com (pike.cdrom.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C5337B993; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:36:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@pike.cdrom.com) Received: from pike.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by pike.cdrom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA02322; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:36:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003101036.CAA02322@pike.cdrom.com> To: Michael Chin-yuan Wu Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, rab@pike.cdrom.com Subject: Re: Organizing a Texas FreeBSD User Group In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Mar 2000 04:07:36 CST." Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:36:32 -0800 From: "Robert A. Bruce" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Michael Chin-yuan Wu said... > >I have been thinking about organizing a FreeBSD user group for >the Dallas/Ft. Worth, Houston, Austin, San Antonio and surrounding >cities. (Sorry El Paso people, but 8 hour drives don't seem to >be feasible. You are welcome to come to our meetings though ;) ) I believe that Houton already has a FUG. See http://www.houfug.org/ >A: Providing or helping to search for meeting place Bookstores are often good places for meetings. Borders and B&N will often let you use their cafe areas for meetings if you schedule them in advance. >C: Coming to the meetings :) Sorry, Texas is too far from Concord, CA. >D: Sponsor some food/drinks (We could just have everyone bring some >food/drinks + their computers) Sure. My company, BSDI (formerly known as Walnut Creek CDROM), will be happy to sponsor food/drinks at your first meeting. We can also provide you with some brochures, install discs, and other advocacy materials. Let me know what you need. -bob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 2:46:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73A6C37B9A5 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:46:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA42481; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:46:14 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:46:14 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" , W Gerald Hicks , giffunip@asme.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement In-Reply-To: <20000310030214.I14279@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Narvi [000310 02:47] wrote: > > > > What would be the opint of unifying UVM and FreeBSD VM, for example? > > Actually, it could be a good thing, supposedly UVM offers a much > nicer programming model which makes it much more flexible and > FreeBSD's vm acutally has realized a unified vm/buffercache. > What about a 'unified' interface to the VM? After all, how you access something and what that thing is internally are different things. The easiest would be to copy their interface. Terry has talked about similar things, but about file systems. > -Alfred > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 5:31:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92EA037B92C for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 05:31:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e2ADV8W11503; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:31:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:31:08 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000309143008.040b3800@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I already have, I mean I still have my apartment there, but I'm more or less always in Boston. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > Pat, does this mean you're leaving New York? > > --Brett > > At 02:21 PM 3/9/2000 , Pat Lynch wrote: > > >ahhh don;t worry about it.... > > > >hey nik, guess who;s the new sysadmin at Andover? =) =) > > > >__ > > > >Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net > > lynch@bsdunix.net > > lynch@unix.sh > > lynch@blowfi.sh > >Systems Administrator Rush Networking > > > >On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Nik Clayton wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 09:18:54AM -0800, Donald Burr of Borg - > > http://www.borg-cube.com/ wrote: > > > > - dburr (watching the /. trolls emerge from underneath their rocks and > > > > other slimy > > > > places, wheeeee! :)) > > > > > > FWIW, I thought the announcement on Slashdot yesterday produced a lot of > > > good comments. > > > > > > Of course, today, the trolls have recovered from the shock, and are taking > > > the opportunity to take over the Bob Bruce interview > > > > > > N > > > -- > > > Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. > > > Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, > > > hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. > > > Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. > > > -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 5:35:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A936037B9E0 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 05:35:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e2ADZCJ11541; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:35:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:35:12 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Paul Griffith Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement In-Reply-To: <38C85D34.9BB2B97F@interlog.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org as far as I know thats the idea. Bob Bruce alluded to this at LinuxWorld. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Paul Griffith wrote: > What about this: > > BSDI also announced that Yahoo! Inc. will take an equity interest in the > new company. > BSDI will leverage the equity interest to execute on its plan to build a > bridge between open source innovation and commercial requirements. The > equity position will be used to grow BSDI's presence as a leading > provider of the most advanced Internet operating systems for the > Internet infrastructure. > > > > > How about an IPO? :-) > > > "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > > > Now it's officially official :) > > > > http://www.bsdi.com/press/20000310.mhtml > > > > cheers, > > Pedro. > > > -- > Paul Griffith paulg@interlog.com | > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 5:44:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3053A37B9E5 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 05:44:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e2ADi5B11600; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:44:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:44:05 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Brad Knowles Cc: Narvi , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > My understanding is that this has gone *way* beyond a flamewar, > and has gotten intensely personal. We're talking serious threats of > bodily harm. > > If we can find a way to put this behind us, or work around this > problem, then I think there may be a chance that we could actually > potentially see a merged codebase from all the major members of the > *BSD family. > This is unlikely, as the repesctive "head" memebers (read, not cire, but founding members) of each project have had long standing resentments towards one another. having friends within each of these projects , I also see that the only way to "merge", which in my opinion may not be the best thing, is to remove these players from the filed. however, they are so intricate to the character of each OS that its unlikely. ce'st la vie.... however, the image of unification and the actual unification are two different things. We can maintain the image (like linux) yet still have "distributions" -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 7:22: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lunatic.oneinsane.net (lunatic.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6814C37BA54 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:21:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net) Received: by lunatic.oneinsane.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CC3D3186; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:21:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:21:55 -0800 From: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson To: Damien Tougas Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Looking for laptop opinions/experiences Message-ID: <20000310072155.A73762@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Reply-To: Ron Rosson References: <20000309234436.A16923@tougas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000309234436.A16923@tougas.net>; from damien@tougas.net on Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 11:44:36PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD lunatic.oneinsane.net 3.4-STABLE X-Moon: The Moon is Waxing Crescent (22% of Full) X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net X-PGP-KEY: http://www.oneinsane.net/~insane/insane2-pgp5i.txt X-Uptime: 7:14AM up 2 days, 23:42, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.08, 0.06 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 09 Mar 2000, Damien Tougas was heard blurting out: > Hello, > > I am looking at buying a laptop, and was wondering if anyone has had > any experiences (good or bad) that they would care to share with > regards to hardware compatibility. Video problems? NIC problems? Etc. > Is it better to have a separate pcmcia card for modem and lan or are > the combo cards ok? Is there a brand of lan cards that people have had > problems getting running under FreeBSD? Any nuggets that can be > provided would be of great help to me in deciding what it is that I > should look at purchasing. > Well I have a Fujitsu E-360 Lifebook (P2-333,64M Ram, 6.4G HD) The video chores are handled by a Trident 9388 with 2Megs, The Sound card is an ESS 1879. I run X at 1024x768 and have sound. Currently it is running CURRENT. I chose the Netgear FA410TXc for the NIC. The only downside is since it uses the ed0 driver it auto-negotiates the link and can not be done by hand with ifconfig from the command line. Do not get me wrong. When it sees a 100M it runs 100M. When it sees a switch it switches to Full-Duplex. The only thing missing is support for the onboard LT-Winmodem. The linix camp has alpha based drivers for this and hopefully soon we can. (Pray to the coder GODS). ;-) PAO + 3.4 worked on here as well with all support. TIA -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() ------------------------------------------------------------------- I can only please one person per day. Today is not YOUR day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 7:56:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA0AA37B98F for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 07:56:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12TRm5-0004B1-00; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:56:25 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA19397; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:56:24 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Message-ID: <20000310155624.A19271@freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:56:24 +0000 From: J McKitrick To: Ron Rosson , Damien Tougas Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Looking for laptop opinions/experiences References: <20000309234436.A16923@tougas.net> <20000310072155.A73762@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <20000310072155.A73762@lunatic.oneinsane.net>; from Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 07:21:55AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've heard it said that Toshiba laptops are friendly to alternative OS's, and i would have to agree. Mine isn't especially sophisticated, and there were some bumps getting sound and my parallel zip drive running, but basic setup was a breeze. -- -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 8: 1: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vinyl.sentex.ca (vinyl.sentex.ca [209.112.4.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EEEC37B9A9 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:00:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@sentex.ca) Received: from simoeon (simeon.sentex.ca [209.112.4.47]) by vinyl.sentex.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA22607 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:00:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mike@sentex.ca) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000310105804.00ff22c0@marble.sentex.ca> X-Sender: mdtpop@marble.sentex.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:58:04 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Mike Tancsa Subject: Official BSDi annoucement on merger Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Looks like they have it up on their web page now. http://www.bsdi.com/press/20000310.mhtml ---Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mike Tancsa, tel +1 519 651 3400 Network Administrator, mike@sentex.net Sentex Communications www.sentex.net Cambridge, Ontario Canada To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 8: 2:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E5BB37BA2D for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:02:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04576; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:02:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000310090121.00a9ca10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:02:20 -0700 To: Paul Dlug From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Looking for laptop opinions/experiences Cc: Damien Tougas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38C8A2B2.669B224C@nerdlabs.com> References: <20000309234436.A16923@tougas.net> <4.2.2.20000310002653.04504a00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As I understand it, Dell uses the ESS Maestro, for which sound support is beta quality at best even if you buy the OSS driver. Since I do a lot of RealAudio, I need sound to work. --Brett At 12:22 AM 3/10/2000 , Paul Dlug wrote: >To be honest with you I never bothered to try it, sound has always been >low on my priority list :-) > >Brett Glass wrote: > > > > What about sound? > > > > --Brett > > > > At 12:01 AM 3/10/2000 , Paul Dlug wrote: > > > > >I have a Sony VAIO F350 I bought in december. Compatbility wise it's > > >been pretty good, I have 3.3 on it with PAO > > >(http://www.jp.freebsd.org/PAO/) which supports my Linksys PCMCIA NIC > > >quite well. The neomagic chipset on it is supported by xfree and works > > >just fine at 1024x768. I would reccommend this laptop highly if the hard > > >drive hadn't failed two days ago :-) Other than that 'minor' detail I > > >would say I'm completely satisfied with it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 8: 5:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B92A237B9C8 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:05:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bitsurfr@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (bitsurfr@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA98035; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:05:21 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from bitsurfr@enteract.com) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:05:21 -0600 (CST) From: bitsurfer To: J McKitrick Cc: Ron Rosson , Damien Tougas , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Looking for laptop opinions/experiences In-Reply-To: <20000310155624.A19271@freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I use Compaq - I have zero issues with either PCCARD, or PAO _____________________________________________________________________ RSA Key Fingerprint = 6D0B 5536 7825 3D09 9093 384A 9694 FDB6 RSA Key Fingerprint = 4390 44E5 E316 F2AA A11E 5755 F3F9 D69B DH/DSS Fingerprint = 089B 0B5C 75C7 A7B4 B050 DD14 2D65 5DD6 E87D 239A PGP Mail encouraged / preferred - keys available on common keyservers _____________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, J McKitrick wrote: > I've heard it said that Toshiba laptops are friendly to alternative > OS's, and i would have to agree. Mine isn't especially sophisticated, > and there were some bumps getting sound and my parallel zip drive > running, but basic setup was a breeze. > -- > -jm > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 8: 8:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 667DC37B9C8 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:08:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12TRxC-000PQ8-00; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:07:54 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19501; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:07:54 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Message-ID: <20000310160754.B19457@freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:07:54 +0000 From: J McKitrick To: Brett Glass , Paul Dlug Cc: Damien Tougas , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Looking for laptop opinions/experiences References: <20000309234436.A16923@tougas.net> <4.2.2.20000310002653.04504a00@localhost> <38C8A2B2.669B224C@nerdlabs.com> <4.2.2.20000310090121.00a9ca10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000310090121.00a9ca10@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 09:02:20AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 09:02:20AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > As I understand it, Dell uses the ESS Maestro, for which sound support > is beta quality at best even if you buy the OSS driver. Since I do > a lot of RealAudio, I need sound to work. Brett (and evryone else), are there any professional quality audio editing tools for BSD? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 8:18: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 588E237BB5A for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:17:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA64502; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:17:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:17:24 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brad Knowles Cc: W Gerald Hicks , giffunip@asme.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 4:31 AM -0500 2000/3/10, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > If we had users/developers from all 3 projects > > working on maintaining the ports/pkgsrc/foo tree we'd probably be in a > > better position to keep it up to date. Maybe its time to split the ports > > tree off into its own project? > > How's this for a radical idea -- split the ports tree off into > its own project, and work with various folks from the Linux camp to > come up with a single unified ports/package maintenance system? Because that needlessly involves us in politics. Its not necessary that the ports system dictate an implementation; look at the differences b/t the NetBSD tools and the FreeBSD tools. I'd imagine that there would be a high degree of sharing but in the beginning we want to avoid taking the position of 'dictator'. The ports system is really about managing patches and metadata (versions, dependencies etc.) > Now, I'm sure you're wondering who the radical is that came up > with this idea -- the answer is that I don't know. However, I can > tell you who recently mentioned it this past weekend at the NLFUG > meeting as one of the things they're in very serious talks about > actually doing -- "Jordan K. Hubbard" himself. Indeed. There are quite a few obvious areas for working on cross project cooperation. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 8:35: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE48D37B9C8 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:34:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA57962; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:34:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Jamie Bowden Cc: David Scheidt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Mar 2000 17:34:52 +0100 In-Reply-To: Jamie Bowden's message of "Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:55:54 -0800 (PST)" Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden writes: > On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, David Scheidt wrote: > > Internal combutstion engines aren't 100% efficient at extracting chemical > > energy from fuel. If you can increase this efficency by steps that reduce > > the potential energy to be extracted, it is possible to have a net gain. > Son instead of extracting roughly 70% of whatever caloric (or BTUs for > those who measure in such a fashion) content say 89 cotane normally > provides, I'm now extracting 70% of a lesser sum? No, you're extracting 80% of a lesser number, which may still be larger than 70% of the greater number. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 8:42:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E13237BACE for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:42:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC378CDE2; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:42:31 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:40:34 +0100 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement Cc: W Gerald Hicks , giffunip@asme.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:17 AM -0500 2000/3/10, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > I'd imagine that there would be a > high degree of sharing but in the beginning we want to avoid taking the > position of 'dictator'. Right, and by splitting it off as a separate project, we get a chance to side-step most of the political problems. Like I said, these guys aren't so dumb. -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 8:48:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gta.com (gw.gta.com [199.120.225.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1567D37BACE for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:48:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lab@gta.com) Received: from gta.com (GTA internal mail system) by gta.com id LAA94390; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:54:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:54:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200003101654.LAA94390@gta.com> From: Larry Baird To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Looking for laptop opinions/experiences User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-STABLE (i386)) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just picked up a Sony VAIO PCG-Z505HS. Overall it works great with FreeBSD. The positives are: 1) Very light full size notebook 2) NeoMagic drivers for X seem to work very well. 3) The screen is very shart (easy to look at) 4) Built in 10/100 ethernet (Intel 82557) 5) Very fast (PIII-500) The downsides are: 1) USB floppy only works under current with USB patches from USB project. 2) Built in modem appears to be a winmodem (though I haven't spent any time verifing this). FreeBSD kernel recognizes sound card (sb0). I haven't tried to use sound yet though. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Larry Baird | HTTP://www.gnatbox.com Global Technology Associates, Inc. | Orlando, FL Email: lab@gta.com | TEL 407-380-0220, FAX 407-380-6080 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 8:58:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A54D837BA58 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:58:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 12TSju-0006hU-00; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:58:14 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19894 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:58:13 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Message-ID: <20000310165813.C19622@freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:58:13 +0000 From: J McKitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: test (n/t) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -- -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 9:12:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E332737BD40 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:12:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA58102; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:12:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Yarema Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: BSD, BSD/OS, and BSDI are trademarks of Berkeley Software Design, Inc. References: <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> <4.2.2.20000308143045.04030e70@localhost> <4.2.2.20000308161012.0403adb0@localhost> <38C7D332.8760088E@dppl.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Mar 2000 18:12:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: Yarema's message of "Thu, 09 Mar 2000 11:37:06 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yarema writes: > Brad Knowles wrote: > > Well, I guess you'd have to talk to -core, but I think you'd get > > some extremely violent disagreements from certain people who used to > > be at CSRG (Kirk McKusick?) if they were so stupid as to try to do > > this. > This has been covered in the past. And why would Kirk be upset? Isn't he > (at least sometimes) employed by BSDI. Kirk McKusick is chairman of the board of BSDI. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 14:10: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C337B37BCF1; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:09:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA08684; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:09:25 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.20000310225221.00967e80@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:04:26 +0100 To: Mark Hittinger From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: re: Is FreeBSD dead ? Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003102015.OAA10490@freebsd.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 14:15 10.03.00 -0600, you wrote: > >FreeBSD won't be dead until they pry the source code from our cold dead >fingers :-) > >There are a lot of hardware companies that had invested substantially in >BSD 4.3 knockoffs and Mach kernel knockoffs. The natural upgrade path for >those development efforts is a commercialized version of FreeBSD (imho). > >There are a lot of sites that are still using BSD variants that have refused >to upgrade to the more favored SYSV knockoffs, the natural upgrade path for >those is a commercialized version of FreeBSD (imho). > >There are hardware vendors with very high end multi-processor configurations >with boo-quoo memory etc. A natural upgrade path for those vendors (when they >finally give up on their own "way-behind-the-curve" unix variant) is to move >towards a commercialized version for FreeBSD (imho). They may try Linux, but >is Linux "high-end-performance-ready"? Hi! Well, there is Turbolinux, which claims to do that. Also there are some projects in clustering. SuSe is selling some clusters already (got to see a small version of that at Cebit) Also, those very big installations use some kind of special Unix spinoff, something like IRIX, sold for specialized hardware, and paying big $$ for. Yes, it is a big chance to get rid of the reputation as being without support, which is very important to the industry. Well, when you can do things yourself, then its ok (Meaning that they have qualified personnel already). But when you can't, and especially smaller businesses cannot, then you have to pay somebody else to do that. ANd thats the point, then they ask what is when some problem occurs. A company like M$ or Sun can be sued at least, at least you can point in one direction and say: Hey, I paid money for that, and you have to fix those bugs and help me install the OS, if somethings goes wrong. Thats the things FreeBSD lacked a bit in the past. And if they see only some small companies offering support on their own as consultants, they decide otherwise. There is a saying: Nobody ever gets blamed for choosing IBM. Thus meaning: If you do what everybody else does, its alright. If you buy Windows, you know about the problems with it, but as everybody uses it, its common practice. But if you stray from mainstream, you get hit very quick if something hickups or even seems as it might like to hickup in the next few hours... Regards Olaf Hoyer P.S:lets take this to -chat -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 15:32: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E4D637BCB7 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:31:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id AAA20523 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 00:31:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA23251 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:28:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement Date: 10 Mar 2000 23:28:52 +0100 Message-ID: <8absv4$mma$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <38C64924.FD9B7A5F@interlog.com> <38C810A4.BE0AD747@asme.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > From Jordan's comments, BSD, Inc. is *very* well aware of how > important it is to keep a single brand image and to avoid even the > appearance of internal fracturing, I'm glad this realization is coming through on all levels. > For whatever reason, Linux can have eleventy bazillion > distributions, and yet all of them can still be viewed as "Linux", > and therefore there is no apparent internal fracturing. That is very, very simple. The Linux people only ever talk about "Linux". Distributions are only mentioned when it can't be avoided anymore. Contrary to that, the FreeBSD people have for the most part always talked about "FreeBSD", the NetBSD people about "NetBSD", the OpenBSD people about "OpenBSD". It's all in the words. I've made it a habit to simply refer to "BSD" and only be more specific when required. I've also made sure to explicitly say "Red Hat", "Debian", etc when specifically talking about features of those, rather than saying "Linux". And from what I observe in my Linux-centric environment, that is paying off. It's really simple. You can do it too. Let's practice. "What's the operating system on your machine?" "F--" "Try again." "BSD, sir!" I knew you could do it. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 15:32: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E0237BA03 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:31:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id AAA20530 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 00:31:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA24104 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:53:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement Date: 10 Mar 2000 23:53:41 +0100 Message-ID: <8abudl$ngt$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000309235232L.jhix@mindspring.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > Another area of mutual benefit is the ports system and while each OS uses > different tools and implementations in their build/install/package system > the patches and other meta-information is likely to be sharable. Wouldn't > it be nice if we had a unified ports tree? Yes, but I don't see any sign of (interest in) this. The {Free,Net,Open}BSD ports systems have diverged significantly. NetBSD seems to have greatly improved the pkg tools. On the OpenBSD front, Marc Espie is continously reworking the ports system (and cleaning up make(1) along with it), but while he probably would appreciate if his work was shared by the other BSDs, nobody there seems to take notice. Log messages like "Stop phantasizing about merging pkgs back into FreeBSD, instead tell people to submit patches that apply without fuzz. (Maybe someone could explain the exact issues with this)." (seen this evening on NetBSD's source-changes mailing list, i.e. their equivalent of cvs-all) don't inspire my confidence that there is any interest in merging the ports trees. Hell, we can't even agree on a common name for the p* system! > If we had users/developers from all 3 projects working on > maintaining the ports/pkgsrc/foo tree we'd probably be in a better > position to keep it up to date. Maybe its time to split the ports > tree off into its own project? I know the last time such a thing > was discussed the other projects rejected the idea fearing that > they would lack representation in something that was essentially > FreeBSD centric. What are the solutions to this problem? The same as for the userland reunification that was proposed elsewhere in this thread. Change needs to flow from the bottom up. You need a grassroots movement. Developers from all projects need to look at the other projects' work and start merging in changes. Don't politicize, just do it. The NIH attitude needs to go from people's minds. Gratuitous differences must not be introduced. If you add a new port/feature, try to add it to all projects in parallel. Find similar thinking developers at the other projects. There was a "BSD boosters" project "to bring the userlands of the three BSD's (FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD) closer together in order to provide for a consistent set of base tools and manual pages." I think it can be safely considered defunct at this time. See http://home.wxs.nl/~asmodai/bsdb.html for an idea that failed. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 15:42:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF04C37B7BF for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:42:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12TZ3S-000FIr-00; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:42:50 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA38201; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:42:50 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:42:49 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement Message-ID: <20000310234249.D37838@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <38C64924.FD9B7A5F@interlog.com> <38C810A4.BE0AD747@asme.org> <8absv4$mma$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <8absv4$mma$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>; from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 11:28:52PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 11:28:52PM +0100, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Brad Knowles wrote: > > I've made it a habit to simply refer to "BSD" and only be more > specific when required. I've also made sure to explicitly say "Red > Hat", "Debian", etc when specifically talking about features of > those, rather than saying "Linux". And from what I observe in my > Linux-centric environment, that is paying off. I've started doing that as well. And i remind people politely that RedHAt Debian, Slackware, and all the rest are different from each other in subtle but important ways. But i always say 'i run BSD Unix on my computer' and if people ask details, i may say FreeBSD. But BSD is easier anyway. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 16:22:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC01737BA75 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:22:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA20116; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:21:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAueaWmN; Fri Mar 10 17:21:17 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA15362; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:21:56 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003110021.RAA15362@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? To: noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 00:21:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jay Nelson" at Mar 09, 2000 08:17:02 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > [snip] > > >> Given Greg's error rate, it is a safe bet that it did. > > > >Yes, yes, I saw it when I got home. > > So, Terry, are there any rumblings inside IBM about this? I won't speak for IBM, but I can speak about the concerns that have been voiced to me. There's some concern about getting the legal stuff out of the way with regard to how the BSDI code will be licensed in the FreeBSD code. There's also a little concern about how fast a bunch of commercially supported core-team/committers might be able to push the code in different directions, compared to an unsupported effort. To get a taste of this, you should consider the situation that occurred when Matt Dillon sold Best Internet off, and was able o spend 8 hours a day hacking new code, and how a volunteer core was not able to keep up with reviewing it at the rate he was able to produce it. They throttled it back by removing, and then conditionalizing, his commit priviledges, something that wouldn't really work with several core members backing a commit. Finally, there's some concern about proprietary drivers not being available for the free version, and displacing freely available drivers in the free version, leaving no free alternatives. I'm sure that most of these issues will be ironed out when the dust settles, and given that Jordan talked about many of these and made the appropriate right noises at the right places last night at th BAFUG meeting (here at Whistle/IBM), I think that we are all prepared to take a wait-and-see position. I haven't spoken to the lawyers, but if no one tells them until after the dust settles and the air is clear again, they won't be able to get their panties in a bunch over it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 16:53: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE71137BBAE for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:52:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Ta9J-0006cp-00; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 00:52:57 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA38996; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 00:52:57 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 00:52:57 +0000 From: J McKitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Message-ID: <20000311005257.D38803@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <200003110021.RAA15362@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200003110021.RAA15362@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 12:21:56AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, i'm cautiously aprehensive about this whole deal, but i'm really trying to be positive. There's no point in jumping to conclusions until we see what happens. There's a lot that *could* happen, but only time will tell. As has been said before, i don't think BSDi would be foolish enough to kill the golden goose. Frankly, there isn't enough FreeBSD support to do that. We are growing, but not a threat... yet. Hopefully, the OSS system will remain intact, and BSDi will realize the $$$ is in support and specialized apps/drivers, rather than closing up the source. -- -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 17:27:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web116.yahoomail.com (web116.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 565E937BCD9 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:27:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 2859 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Mar 2000 01:27:09 -0000 Message-ID: <20000311012709.2858.qmail@web116.yahoomail.com> Received: from [216.252.136.36] by web116.yahoomail.com; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:27:09 PST Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:27:09 -0800 (PST) From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Reply-To: giffunip@asme.org Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This merger is bringing together the old CSRG and the new hackers interested in the liberal use of the BSD code. BSDI is the kind of company that cab takes by the hand through POSIX and C2 certifications and shoulder to shoulder with the big players. I don't think the NetBSD and OpenBSD people would want to be left out of this elite. Even if they this is not attractive enough, once FreeBSD is multiplatform (I mean SPARC, PowerPC and ARM), and with the crypto restrictions gone, there would seem to be no real need for additional projects (just IMHO). Having all the BSD groups working together would be advantageous for everyone (less duplicate work), and the new codebase could really benefit from the experience the other BSDs have on other platforms. Yes, there would be lots of discussions (what to do with UVM and RAIDframe for example) but one thing we will have to understand is that the new code will not be what we used to know as FreeBSD, but a new and superior project, the new standard for BSD systems. I must admit, I don't see a unified BSD occurring soon, but you can bet the FreeBSD CVS tree will be closely watched by many eyes when the BSDI merger starts, and once we are really multiplatform, it's only natural that we will start "learning" from the other BSDs. My 0.02 $ Pedro. --- Brad Knowles wrote: > At 11:17 AM -0500 2000/3/10, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > > I'd > imagine that there would be a > > high degree of sharing but in the beginning we > want to avoid taking the > > position of 'dictator'. > > Right, and by splitting it off as a separate > project, we get a > chance to side-step most of the political problems. > > Like I said, these guys aren't so dumb. > > ===== --- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve ! http://www.FreeBSD.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 18:36:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jasper.nighttide.net (jasper.nighttide.net [216.227.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C7F737BBBC for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:36:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from darren@nighttide.net) Received: from localhost (darren@localhost) by jasper.nighttide.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA24912 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 21:36:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 21:36:15 -0500 (EST) From: Darren Henderson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: <20000311005257.D38803@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm not quite sure why some folks seem apprehensive about this business, am I missing something? Walnut Creek did not own FreeBSD, as much as anyone owns it the core does. WC was a major supporter of FreeBSD and helped it become what it is today. BSDi and WC have merged. Every indication is that not only does the new entity plan to continue its support of FreeBSD but to actually increase it and make the majority of BSDi's product available for inclussion in FreeBSD. Yes, if there is a sudden infux of commiters from what was once BSDi there could be a political shift in the direction the project takes. However, even if the very worst were to happen, everyone who holds a copy of the source is able to regroup and start afresh if needs be (and they can find the talent). The beauty of the license. I see a lot of good things in store for FreeBSD. -Darren ______________________________________________________________________ Darren Henderson darren@nighttide.net Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 19:30:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8878937B88E for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:30:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Tcbp-0008PJ-00; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 03:30:33 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA42191; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 03:30:32 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 03:30:32 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Darren Henderson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Message-ID: <20000311033031.A42114@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000311005257.D38803@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from darren@nighttide.net on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 09:36:15PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, Darren, i agree with you. If worst comes to worst, we, the BSD community, can take our source code, and branch off and do what we want at any time. And that is that. But i don't think that will happen. So let's just wait and see before we make hasty judgments and start relinquishing the OSS and BSD ideals we have held dearly for so long. -- -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 10 19:46:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from carbon.btinternet.com (carbon.btinternet.com [194.73.73.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AC9F37B88E for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2000 19:46:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.201.5] (helo=parish.my.domain) by carbon.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12TcrF-0003nR-00; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 03:46:29 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA02870; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 03:46:40 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 03:46:39 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: j mckitrick Cc: Darren Henderson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Message-ID: <20000311034639.A235@parish> References: <20000311005257.D38803@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000311033031.A42114@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000311033031.A42114@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:30:32AM +0000 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:30:32AM +0000, j mckitrick wrote: > Well, Darren, i agree with you. If worst comes to worst, we, the BSD community, can take our source code, and branch > off and do what we want at any time. Maybe the first task would be to fix the line wrapping in our mailer :) > And that is that. But i don't think that will happen. So let's just wait and > see before we make hasty judgments and start relinquishing the OSS and BSD ideals we have held dearly for so long. > -- > -jm > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 11 3:12:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA01537BA11 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 03:12:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA14842; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 04:12:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000311035558.0459ae80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 04:12:41 -0700 To: Darren Henderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: References: <20000311005257.D38803@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:36 PM 3/10/2000 , Darren Henderson wrote: >Walnut Creek did not own FreeBSD, as much as anyone owns it the core >does. WC was a major supporter of FreeBSD and helped it become what it >is today. Well, for all intents and purposes, WC realy has "owned" the right to reproduce FreeBSD. For example, while CheapBytes sells FreeBSD discs (and has for years), the FreeBSD Web site and the documenation in the FreeBSD distributions mention WC *exclusively* as a source of discs. Walnut Creek CD-ROM seems to have been given greatly favored status. While it is true that WC has made large contributions to the project, one must not ignore the conflict of interest generated by the fact that Jordan, David Greenman, and others deeply involved with FreeBSD work for WC either as employees or consultants. Since FreeBSD has been operated as if it were a non-profit (and should be one; hopefully it will be soon), these private inurement and conflict of interest issues should -- no, must -- be addressed. Remember when, on the lists some months ago, Jordan stated quite bluntly that anyone who wanted to use the FreeBSD trademark would have to reveal product plans IN ADVANCE to an employee of Walnut Creek -- even though the product might compete with something WC produced? While appreciation for WC's support is in order, the raising of barriers to entry for newcomers is inappropriate -- especially now that WC and BSDi have merged. Criteria for the use of the FreeBSD trademark, for example, should not favor Walnut Creek/BSDi. Other companies who wish to distribute FreeBSD should NOT be required to reveal future product plans to any employee of a competitor, nor should others' ability to produce novel products be unduly regulated. --Bret Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 11 7:31: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 21C0237BC4F for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:30:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 1261 invoked from network); 11 Mar 2000 15:30:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (144.16.71.128) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 11 Mar 2000 15:30:42 -0000 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:00:42 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Darren Henderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000311035558.0459ae80@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Well, for all intents and purposes, WC realy has "owned" the right to > reproduce FreeBSD. For example, while CheapBytes sells FreeBSD discs > (and has for years), the FreeBSD Web site and the documenation in > the FreeBSD distributions mention WC *exclusively* as a source of > discs. Hmm, that may just be because Cheapbytes is not involved in "developing" or even packaging FreeBSD further. It may be more honest to mention them, but even in the linux world, nobody mentions them as a distributor. It is certainly important that the FreeBSD trademark is controlled, and actively enforced, by *somebody*: it should be a neutral committee of irreproachable people, like the FreeBSD core team. > Remember when, on the lists some months ago, Jordan stated > quite bluntly that anyone who wanted to use the FreeBSD trademark > would have to reveal product plans IN ADVANCE to an employee of > Walnut Creek -- even though the product might compete with something > WC produced? Sorry I don't follow the list regularly, but -- are you saying the plans would have to be revealed to someone who also happens to be an employee of Walnut Creek, or to a particular employee at WC in his capacity as employee? > WC and BSDi have merged. Criteria for the use of the FreeBSD trademark, > for example, should not favor Walnut Creek/BSDi. Other companies > who wish to distribute FreeBSD should NOT be required to reveal future > product plans to any employee of a competitor, The conflict of interest argument may be correct in principle, but in practice there shouldn't be a problem if the employee in question is a genuine FreeBSD core team member: it's in WC's interest to act like "nice guys". (Isn't that the usual argument about the BSD licence and commercial interests?) Likewise, in the linux community there are kernel developers like Alan Cox who work for Red Hat, and others who work for SuSE etc, and they all develop together without worrying about conflict of interest. Anyone who is allowed the word FreeBSD should be under some kind of check, to make sure that it matches with the "official" FreeBSD. Anyone can take the codebase and do something entirely different with it, of course, if they're willing to use another name for it. The sort of question to be answered is not, should the FreeBSD docs cite Cheapbytes as a supplier, but -- if some other company like Red Hat came along and wanted to package FreeBSD in linux style -- GUI install, packages, etc, etc -- performing real "value addition" in commercial words -- should they be allowed to call it FreeBSD, and what should the conditions be for that. And yes, it should not be left to Walnut Creek, but to some committee whose credentials are beyond doubt. But it may be unreasonable to ask that no employees of Walnut Creek be involved in the process at all. Incidentally, I think someone seriously suggested Linux International on this list, as a suitable body to police the trademark. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 11 7:35: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E32037BC54 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 07:35:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from dallas ([12.73.250.223]) by mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.31a 201-229-119-114) with ESMTP id <20000311153459.XFLE24363.mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net@dallas> for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:34:59 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000310150025.00ce2440@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 15:03:19 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: BSD Merger Announcement In-Reply-To: References: <38C810A4.BE0AD747@asme.org> <38C64924.FD9B7A5F@interlog.com> <38C810A4.BE0AD747@asme.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:33 AM 3/10/00 , Brad Knowles wrote: > For whatever reason, Linux can have eleventy bazillion > distributions, and yet all of them can still be viewed as "Linux", and > therefore there is no apparent internal fracturing. > > There are just four major different versions of BSD that I am > aware of, and while their differences are more on par with Linux > distributions than anything else, they still get their heads served to > them on a platter for not pulling together. > > I just don't get it. This is because the Linux camps, from Slackware to Redhat to Debain and beyond, all pay homage to a single deity (i.e., Linus Torvalds). There is no such figure in the BSD camp, and the CSRG at UCB just isn't gonna cut it. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 11 13: 9:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE2537BD42 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:09:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA28511; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:02:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200003112102.NAA28511@implode.root.com> To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , Darren Henderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:00:42 +0530." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:02:54 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >The sort of question to be answered is not, should the FreeBSD >docs cite Cheapbytes as a supplier, but -- if some other company >like Red Hat came along and wanted to package FreeBSD in linux >style -- GUI install, packages, etc, etc -- performing real >"value addition" in commercial words -- should they be allowed to >call it FreeBSD, and what should the conditions be for that. And >yes, it should not be left to Walnut Creek, but to some committee >whose credentials are beyond doubt. But it may be unreasonable to >ask that no employees of Walnut Creek be involved in the process >at all. > >Incidentally, I think someone seriously suggested Linux International >on this list, as a suitable body to police the trademark. We're working on forming the FreeBSD Foundation. The trademark is going to be transfered to the Foundation as soon as it is formed. This was agreed to as part of the BSDI/WC merger (since the 'FreeBSD' trademark is currently held by WC CDROM, and the 'BSD' trademark is held by BSDI). Before this transfer occurs, it is also agreed to that the FreeBSD core team has the exclusive right to determine what products can be labeled with the FreeBSD trademark. I hope this finally puts this concern to rest. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 11 13:28:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.x-treme.gr (mail2.x-treme.gr [212.120.196.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2260037BC64 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:28:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat56.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.248]) by mail2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with SMTP id XAA29929 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:28:27 +0200 Received: (qmail 98104 invoked by uid 1001); 11 Mar 2000 14:13:33 -0000 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 16:13:33 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Mark Ovens Cc: j mckitrick , Darren Henderson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Message-ID: <20000311161333.A98032@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: <20000311005257.D38803@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000311033031.A42114@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000311034639.A235@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000311034639.A235@parish>; from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org on Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:46:39AM +0000 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E X-Phone-Number: +30-94-6203692, +30-93-2886457 X-Address: Theodorou Kirinaiou 61, 26334 Patra, Greece Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:46:39AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > Maybe the first task would be to fix the line wrapping in our mailer :) In the original posting of Jonathon, the wrapping seems to be the result of a larger-than-usual window. I'm sure than if he knew the :set wl=75 way of writing in vi(1), he would not deliberately annoy you or anyone, Mark. Cheers. -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > For my public PGP key: finger keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr PGP fingerprint, phone and address in the headers of this message. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 11 13:38:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from praseodumium.btinternet.com (praseodumium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3064F37B6BE for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 13:38:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.135.159] (helo=parish.my.domain) by praseodumium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12Tta9-0004Un-00; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:37:58 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00433; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:38:07 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:38:07 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: j mckitrick , Darren Henderson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Message-ID: <20000311213807.B235@parish> References: <20000311005257.D38803@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000311033031.A42114@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000311034639.A235@parish> <20000311161333.A98032@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000311161333.A98032@hades.hell.gr>; from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr on Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 04:13:33PM +0200 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 04:13:33PM +0200, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:46:39AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > Maybe the first task would be to fix the line wrapping in our mailer :) > > In the original posting of Jonathon, the wrapping seems to be the result > of a larger-than-usual window. I'm sure than if he knew the :set wl=75 > way of writing in vi(1), he would not deliberately annoy you or anyone, > Mark. > He wasn't annoying me, it was a (obviously poor) attempt at humour, note the ``:)'' after my comment :) > Cheers. > > -- > Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > > For my public PGP key: finger keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr > PGP fingerprint, phone and address in the headers of this message. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 11 15: 9:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F006637B728 for ; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:09:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Tv0p-0009ac-00; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:09:35 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA57299; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:09:33 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:09:33 +0000 From: J McKitrick To: David Greenman Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Brett Glass , Darren Henderson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? Message-ID: <20000311230933.B57124@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <200003112102.NAA28511@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200003112102.NAA28511@implode.root.com>; from dg@root.com on Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:02:54PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thank you, David. I for one, am trying to focus on the possible benefits, rather than start looking for potential problems, and i will continue to do so until i have good reason to do otherwise. jm -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jonathon McKitrick / jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org / j_mckitrick@bigfoot.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 11 15:17:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 7C70437B920; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:17:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A3BC2E8157; Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:17:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 15:17:14 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: Darren Henderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Merger, and what will its effects be on committers? In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000311035558.0459ae80@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > Well, for all intents and purposes, WC realy has "owned" the right to > reproduce FreeBSD. For example, while CheapBytes sells FreeBSD discs > (and has for years), the FreeBSD Web site and the documenation in > the FreeBSD distributions mention WC *exclusively* as a source of > discs. Submit patches to give mention to cheapbytes, and I'm SURE they will be committed (hell, I'll do it myself if no-one else does). It's not an active omission, but a passive one (no-one has been motivated to change the docs since cheapbytes started selling). Deal? > Remember when, on the lists some months ago, Jordan stated > quite bluntly that anyone who wanted to use the FreeBSD trademark > would have to reveal product plans IN ADVANCE to an employee of > Walnut Creek -- even though the product might compete with something > WC produced? This won't be an issue when the trademark is transferred to the FreeBSD foundation in the hands of -core, as is planned. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message