From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 28 2:33: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A939237B8CE; Sun, 28 May 2000 02:33:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (user-33qtijj.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.202.115]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA14338; Sun, 28 May 2000 05:32:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3930E994.4DDACD83@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 02:40:36 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software References: <20000528024515.8BB9137B746@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: > > I worked for two years at the Board of Governors of the > Federal Reserve System. During that time, I was able to meet and > observe the work of several members of the Federal Open Market > Committee. Based upon that experience, it is clear to me that your > statements are unencumbered by having to face reality. They are some > of the most careful and dedicated people that I have met. > > jmb > Hi Jonathan, I was half-joking :-) On the other hand, there are reasons one might have valid concerns about such a concentration of power and the enormous potential for abuses of the same. Here are a couple of dissenting viewpoints on the Fed grabbed at random from a quick Yahoo search: http://webbindustries.com/spotlight/f_fr_art001.html http://www.seidata.com/~neusys/colm0046.html No claims made to support the accuracy of these articles, but it does show that I am not alone in possessing a distrust of the Federal Reserve Bank. Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com "If the American people ever allow the banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers occupied." - Thomas Jefferson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 28 5:53: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 2556D37B78B; Sun, 28 May 2000 05:53:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: jhix@mindspring.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <3930E994.4DDACD83@mindspring.com> (message from W Gerald Hicks on Sun, 28 May 2000 02:40:36 -0700) Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software Message-Id: <20000528125303.2556D37B78B@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 05:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I was half-joking :-) i may have over-reacted. some of the material sent to the -chat list in the last month has been sufficient to make me consider either unsubscribing or using a kill file for the first time since i have joined the project. ;( > > On the other hand, there are reasons one might have valid concerns about > such a concentration of power and the enormous potential for abuses of > the same. indeed, the potential for abuse is very great. we have been fortunate in this country that to a large extent politics have remained outside the Fed. One item that all the various interests can agree upon unreservedly is the desireability of financial stability. That may account for some of the Fed's success to date. > > Here are a couple of dissenting viewpoints on the Fed grabbed at random > from a quick Yahoo search: > > http://webbindustries.com/spotlight/f_fr_art001.html > http://www.seidata.com/~neusys/colm0046.html > > No claims made to support the accuracy of these articles, but it does > show that I am not alone in possessing a distrust of the Federal Reserve > Bank. > The Fed was very much under attack during Volker's tenure (the high inflation years of the 70's and 80's). We used to joke about stopping Greenspan from testifying on capitol hill twice a year (humprey hawkins law requires that he do so). twice a year he would make a very significant dent in everyone's 401k. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 28 12:31: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C67F537B8CA for ; Sun, 28 May 2000 12:30:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from naddy@mips.inka.de) Received: from bigeye.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 12w8lw-00088f-01; Sun, 28 May 2000 21:30:52 +0200 Received: (from naddy@localhost) by bigeye.mips.inka.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA36097 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 28 May 2000 20:43:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy) Received: from mail.inka.de (uucp@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with bsmtp id AAA65236 for naddy@mips.inka.de; Sun, 28 May 2000 00:31:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by mail.inka.de with esmtp id 12voMf-00038x-00; Sat, 27 May 2000 23:43:26 +0200 Received: from leviathan (gh.ws.linkfast.net [208.160.105.41]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 2FF439B36 for ; Sat, 27 May 2000 16:43:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <001e01bfc824$960dfc20$2969a0d0@leviathan> From: "gh" To: "Christian Weisgerber" References: <008801bfc799$88cddde0$ed64aad0@leviathan> <392F6CAC.1988C2EA@mail.ptd.net> <20000527184152.G3471@welearn.com.au> <8gpbuh$1rba$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE forFreeBSDPetition Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 16:43:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Sue Blake wrote: > > > Yes, and I think that these old and very unofficial guidelines still apply: > > http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/slow/ready.html > > In your opinion, is it a part of the exercise that this document > is in English? > A truly thought-invoking proposition. As a native English-speaker, I failed even to consider the possibility. I certainly hope that FreeBSD has the ability to accomodate (more fitting word?) users of other languages; however, I believe that we definitely should have a ``standard language'' if you will, even if not official (Something like what we have here in the US: most people speak English, but English is not the or an official language of this country, one language for standard, system-based communication. In addition, we should provide documentation in multiple languages for the same purpose as accepting everybody. As someone said earlier, we should embrace all. You bring up one of the more complex and complicated problems facing (I suppose) all multi-lingual projects. What language should we use or use most often and thoroughly? I am interested in hearing other's thoughts on this. Dan > -- > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 28 14:22:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DBC537B567; Sun, 28 May 2000 14:22:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (p3EE07E62.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.224.126.98]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA07025; Sun, 28 May 2000 23:21:37 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48544AC30; Sun, 28 May 2000 23:22:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA02790; Sun, 28 May 2000 23:22:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 23:22:06 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Jesus Rodriguez Cuesta Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: doc/es_ES.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook Makefile Message-ID: <20000528232206.B922@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Jesus Rodriguez Cuesta , chat@freebsd.org References: <200005281914.MAA01242@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200005281914.MAA01242@freefall.freebsd.org>; from jesusr@FreeBSD.ORG on Sun, May 28, 2000 at 12:14:07PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Jesus Rodriguez Cuesta (jesusr@FreeBSD.ORG): > Spanish handbook will be committed but not included on doc auto > building until completly finished. So - never?-) Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 28 14:25:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arachna.worldonline.es (arachna.worldonline.es [212.7.33.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96EA137B719 for ; Sun, 28 May 2000 14:25:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesusr@worldonline.es) Received: from wol170.tm.bcn.worldonline.ct (pc170.worldonline.es [212.7.35.170]) by arachna.worldonline.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59350FE810; Sun, 28 May 2000 23:25:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 23:27:32 +0200 (CEST) From: Jesus Rodriguez X-Sender: jesusr@wol170.tm.bcn.worldonline.ct To: Alexander Langer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: doc/es_ES.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook Makefile In-Reply-To: <20000528232206.B922@cichlids.cichlids.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 28 May 2000, Alexander Langer wrote: > Thus spake Jesus Rodriguez Cuesta (jesusr@FreeBSD.ORG): >=20 > > Spanish handbook will be committed but not included on doc auto > > building until completly finished. >=20 > So - never?-) Maybe :) Saludos JesusR. ------------------------------------- Jes=FAs Rodr=EDguez Responsable de sistemas y explotaci=F3n World Online jesusr@worldonline.es http://www.worldonline.es Tel. + (34) 93-2257350 ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 28 21:31:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CBE937BB82 for ; Sun, 28 May 2000 21:31:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@mips.inka.de) Received: from bigeye.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 12wHDE-00085P-03; Mon, 29 May 2000 06:31:36 +0200 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.mips.inka.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA56052 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 29 May 2000 02:41:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE forFreeBSDPetition Date: 29 May 2000 02:41:31 +0200 Message-ID: <8gsebr$1mn8$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> References: <20000527184152.G3471@welearn.com.au> <8gpbuh$1rba$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000528073517.H3471@welearn.com.au> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > > > http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/slow/ready.html > > > > In your opinion, is it a part of the exercise that this document > > is in English? > > Absolutely not! Ah, but think about it for a moment. - All primary documentation is in English. Translations are always lagging behind and often incomplete. The same holds true for secondary documentation, e.g. things related to ports, or general Unix books. - All primary support fora are in English. There are some mailing lists and newsgroups in other languages, but participation there is much more limited, so the knowledge base is smaller. - Almost all development, and certainly all mainstream development, is handled exclusively in English. The common base for communication with and among developers is English. Effectively, the project language is English. In fact, now that I think about it, our installation routine is available only in English, isn't it? (I've heard that there's a localized Japanese installer, but it isn't in the repository.) I postulate that unless you have a working command of basic written English, you will at most be a second class user, severely limited in your access to all kinds of project information. Note that this holds true for the other BSD projects and Linux as well. - Shouldn't the resources that are spent on translation rather be devoted to improving documentation or code? Are translators really a separate group that wouldn't contribute otherwise if they weren't tied up with translations? For quite some time now I have been holding the belief that not everybody is served well by a unix box on their desktop. Lately, I have become increasingly outspoken about this. The reactions are interesting. Some people seem to be offended that I don't try to fanatically convince them to run "Linux" (they haven't heard of unix yet). My latest scheme to make myself unpopular is to become outspoken about the language issue. I'm sick and tired of the whining about documentation only being available in English. Let's face it, if you don't know English in today's Western culture, you have a far bigger problem than computers. You don't understand the music, you don't understand the advertisements, you have little access to current proceedings in science, engineering, economics, arts, everything. A basic knowledge of English has become a requirement akin to literacy and arithmetic. (I'm particularly fed up with people who claim basic familiarity with English, or any other language for that matter, but insist that they can't read technical documentation in that language, because technical jargon supposedly is too difficult.) -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 7:17: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r35.bfm.org [216.127.220.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE58137BC14 for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 07:16:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id JAA00248; Mon, 29 May 2000 09:16:39 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 09:16:08 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Cc: whizkid@bigfoot.com Subject: Re: English Message-ID: <20000529091608.A232@whizkidtech.net> References: <000d01bfc95f$8b783410$0262a8c0@knut> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <000d01bfc95f$8b783410$0262a8c0@knut>; from erdmann@delta-systems.de on Mon, May 29, 2000 at 12:17:58PM +0100 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Special-Effects: http://www.FilmSFX.com/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoth naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber): >I postulate that unless you have a working command of basic written >English, you will at most be a second class user, severely limited >in your access to all kinds of project information. C'est la vie! -- When two do the same, it's not the same -- Slovak proverb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 9:38:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C04737BC15 for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 09:38:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07552; Mon, 29 May 2000 09:38:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 09:38:41 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: chat@bafug.org Subject: San Francisco Chronicle Discovers FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000529093841.A7538@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The San Francisco Chronicle has a couple of interesting articles about FreeBSD. Here are the links; http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/05/29/BU20648.DTL and http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/05/29/BU96113.DTL Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 10:33:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFDE037BCB0 for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 10:33:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA06438 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 29 May 2000 10:33:26 -0700 Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 10:33:26 -0700 From: Arun Sharma To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Kerala, Communism, Linux and GPL Message-ID: <20000529103326.A6424@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/2000/05/26/stories/0426211w.htm The project which is now getting a close look from the State Planning Board is touted to be a perfect `Kerala Model' just like the one in social development which is characterised by low GDP, but high quality of life indices and acclaimed the world over. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 12: 7:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A358237BCC4 for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 12:07:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@cichlids.com) Received: from cichlids.com (p3E9EE6F6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.158.230.246]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06589 for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 21:08:09 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC57FAC30 for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 21:07:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA09322 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 29 May 2000 21:07:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 21:07:36 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD for t-shirts Message-ID: <20000529210736.A9311@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello folks! I gonna go to a 500 guys LAN-Party this weekend and I still need the right T-Shirt for this event. Since there will be probably many Linux guys, I need a pretty cool FreeBSD T-Shirt, maybe even Chuck Killing Tux and then a big "FreeBSD - there can be only one" or something :-) Does one have good t-shirt pictures or even only good pictures/drawings of Chuck killing Tux? Thanks a lot! Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 12:20: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DFED37B873 for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 12:20:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r36.bfm.org [216.127.220.132]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 29 May 2000 14:21:09 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000529141924.008d5100@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 14:19:24 -0500 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: San Francisco Chronicle Discovers FreeBSD Cc: chat@bafug.org In-Reply-To: <20000529093841.A7538@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:38 29-05-2000 -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: >The San Francisco Chronicle has a couple of interesting articles about >FreeBSD. Here are the links; > >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/05/2 9/BU20648.DTL What amazes me whenever I read articles that list the big Internet users who use FreeBSD is that they never ever mention pair Networks, one of the largest web host providers (perhaps even the largest), which is 100% FreeBSD. They currently host 94,391 sites - that's quite a family of FreeBSD sites! Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 12:36:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 001A737BCE6 for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 12:36:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r36.bfm.org [216.127.220.132]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 29 May 2000 14:37:16 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000529143533.008f8aa0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 14:35:33 -0500 To: Poul-Henning Kamp From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Descartes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <27249.959622109@critter.freebsd.dk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 19:41 29-05-2000 +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >"Cogito ergo cogito ergo sum" as one of the fortunes claims with >little regard to latin grammer. What's wrong with its Latin grammar? It does not make much sense ("I think, therefore I think, therefore I am"), but it is grammatically correct. More meaningful phrases might include "Cogito me cogitare ergo sum" ("I think that I think, therefore I am"), or perhaps "Cogito ergo cogito me esse" ("I think, therefore I think that I am"). That said, I disagree with old Rene D., anyway. He should have just claimed "Cogito me esse" - "I think that I am." One could never argue with that. :) All the others are arguable. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 13: 3:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.102.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87AE237BCED; Mon, 29 May 2000 13:03:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA69063; Mon, 29 May 2000 13:03:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:03:42 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/net/cvsupit Makefile Message-ID: <20000529130342.A69019@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <200005291952.MAA74888@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200005291952.MAA74888@freefall.freebsd.org>; from hoek@FreeBSD.org on Mon, May 29, 2000 at 12:52:18PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 29, 2000 at 12:52:18PM -0700, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > Log: > pedantry: spell FreeBSD.org capitalised thusly Counter-pedantry: "Thus" is an adverb already. [Now, what horrible error have I made in this correction?] -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 13:54:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4A0C37B603 for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 13:54:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10609; Mon, 29 May 2000 13:54:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <3932D914.8F157107@gorean.org> Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 13:54:44 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0528 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@bafug.org Subject: Re: San Francisco Chronicle Discovers FreeBSD References: <3.0.6.32.20000529141924.008d5100@mail85.pair.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > What amazes me whenever I read articles that list the big Internet users > who use FreeBSD is that they never ever mention pair Networks, one of the > largest web host providers (perhaps even the largest), which is 100% > FreeBSD. They currently host 94,391 sites - that's quite a family of > FreeBSD sites! I'm assuming you mean "largest _paid_ web hosting..." since geocities numbers in the millions. :) You're right though, 94k users is a goodly chunk, and I didn't know that y'all were using FreeBSD. There are so many people in the gallery now, hard to keep track. Doug -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 14:44:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1CCD37B5EA for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 14:44:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r47.bfm.org [216.127.220.143]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 29 May 2000 16:45:36 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000529164345.008ae460@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 16:43:45 -0500 To: Doug Barton From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: San Francisco Chronicle Discovers FreeBSD Cc: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@bafug.org In-Reply-To: <3932D914.8F157107@gorean.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20000529141924.008d5100@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 13:54 29-05-2000 -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > I'm assuming you mean "largest _paid_ web hosting..." since geocities >numbers in the millions. :) Yes, we have to pay them. :) Other than that, they make it a big point that they use exclusively FreeBSD. In fact, that is how I got into FreeBSD: I use pair for several of my web sites (and they probably only count me once in that big number because all of those sites are part of the same account, just subdirectories with different domains attached), and wanted to do CGI. It made sense to develop and test the software locally, so I installed FreeBSD on my computer. And here I am. :) Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 16:20: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kwanon.research.canon.com.au (kwanon.research.canon.com.au [203.12.172.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0E99537B6CD for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 16:20:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from iain@research.canon.com.au) Received: (qmail 27757 invoked from network); 29 May 2000 23:19:59 -0000 Received: from bellmann.research.canon.com.au (203.12.175.190) by kwanon-heat.research.canon.com.au with SMTP; 29 May 2000 23:19:59 -0000 Received: from elph.research.canon.com.au (elph.research.canon.com.au [203.12.174.253]) by bellmann.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35CC58B10 for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 09:19:01 +1000 (EST) Received: from elph.research.canon.com.au (elph.research.canon.com.au [10.2.0.253]) by elph.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36AA1B2B1 for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 09:19:56 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:19:56 +1000 (EST) From: Iain Templeton To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: doc/es_ES.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook Makefile In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 28 May 2000, Jesus Rodriguez wrote: > ------------------------------------- > Jesús Rodríguez > Responsable de sistemas y explotación For someone who doesn't know spanish, that title looks like "Responsible for systems exploitation" That would be a fun job :-) Iain To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 16:20:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smart.visp-europe.psi.com (smart.visp-europe.psi.com [212.222.105.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B354737B58B for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 16:20:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jnickelsen@acm.org) Received: from ip57.berlin64.pub-ip.de.psi.net ([154.15.64.57] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by smart.visp-europe.psi.com with esmtp (Exim 3.14 #1) id 12wYpk-00046E-00; Tue, 30 May 2000 01:20:32 +0200 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id 7BB03226B; Tue, 30 May 2000 01:20:14 +0200 (CEST) To: Doug Barton Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@bafug.org Subject: Re: San Francisco Chronicle Discovers FreeBSD References: <3.0.6.32.20000529141924.008d5100@mail85.pair.com> <3932D914.8F157107@gorean.org> From: Juergen Nickelsen Date: 30 May 2000 01:20:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: Doug Barton's message of "Mon, 29 May 2000 13:54:44 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 25 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "Canyonlands" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Barton writes: > "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > > What amazes me whenever I read articles that list the big Internet users > > who use FreeBSD is that they never ever mention pair Networks, one of the > > largest web host providers (perhaps even the largest), which is 100% > > FreeBSD. They currently host 94,391 sites - that's quite a family of > > FreeBSD sites! > > I'm assuming you mean "largest _paid_ web hosting..." since geocities > numbers in the millions. :) You're right though, 94k users is a > goodly chunk, and I didn't know that y'all were using FreeBSD. The german company Strato (in cooperation with KPNQwest) claims to be the largest web hosting service, but I couldn't find any numbers on their web site. Their data center, they say, is suited for more than a million domains, so they have probably less than that. Recently I heard that they said to have had an increase of 400000 domains last year, so it should be a total between that and a million. Paid web hosting service, that is, and they are using Solaris, not FreeBSD. -- Juergen Nickelsen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 16:20:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from devils.maquina.com (devils.maquina.com [62.229.71.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABDE737B58B for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 16:20:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gabriel@maquina.com) Received: from localhost (gabriel@localhost) by devils.maquina.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA73384; Tue, 30 May 2000 00:20:05 +0100 (WEST) (envelope-from gabriel@maquina.com) X-Authentication-Warning: devils.maquina.com: gabriel owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 00:20:05 +0100 (WEST) From: Jose Gabriel Marcelino To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Doug Barton , jgrosch@mooseriver.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@bafug.org Subject: Re: San Francisco Chronicle Discovers FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000529164345.008ae460@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, Yep, it's pretty strange they don't get noticed more around here. I think I never saw one post from them on the FreeBSD lists. > Other than that, they make it a big point that they use exclusively > FreeBSD. In fact, that is how I got into FreeBSD: I use pair for several of Yep, they're pretty cool guys. I remember they even let me do some fancy DNS setup because I was (and still am) running FreeBSD servers :-) > It made sense to develop and test the software locally, so I installed > FreeBSD on my computer. And here I am. :) It was the other way around for me, I was running FreeBSD when my company needed a website and Pair with it's sweet bandwidth and all FreeBSD servers was just the thing. They also have a sweet engineered FreeBSD distribution based on 2.2.7-STABLE (upgrading to 3.4 soon) that seems well secured, with most lower level system commands unavailable to the user. -- Gabriel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 16:22:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kwanon.research.canon.com.au (kwanon.research.canon.com.au [203.12.172.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2EC3437BD31 for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 16:22:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from iain@research.canon.com.au) Received: (qmail 26218 invoked from network); 29 May 2000 23:22:13 -0000 Received: from bellmann.research.canon.com.au (203.12.175.190) by kwanon-heat.research.canon.com.au with SMTP; 29 May 2000 23:22:13 -0000 Received: from elph.research.canon.com.au (elph.research.canon.com.au [203.12.174.253]) by bellmann.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A4F8B10; Tue, 30 May 2000 09:21:14 +1000 (EST) Received: from elph.research.canon.com.au (elph.research.canon.com.au [10.2.0.253]) by elph.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id D65133C97B; Tue, 30 May 2000 09:22:09 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:22:09 +1000 (EST) From: Iain Templeton To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Descartes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000529143533.008f8aa0@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 29 May 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 19:41 29-05-2000 +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >"Cogito ergo cogito ergo sum" as one of the fortunes claims with > >little regard to latin grammer. > > What's wrong with its Latin grammar? It does not make much sense ("I think, > therefore I think, therefore I am"), but it is grammatically correct. > > More meaningful phrases might include "Cogito me cogitare ergo sum" ("I > think that I think, therefore I am"), or perhaps "Cogito ergo cogito me > esse" ("I think, therefore I think that I am"). > > That said, I disagree with old Rene D., anyway. He should have just claimed > "Cogito me esse" - "I think that I am." One could never argue with that. :) > All the others are arguable. > Well, what would "I think that I think, therefore I think that I am." be? (Which unless I'm mistaken was what the fortune was supposed to say). Cogito me cogitare ergo cogito sum? Iain To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 17:25:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AF1C37BCD0 for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 17:25:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA16350; Tue, 30 May 2000 03:26:15 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 03:26:15 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Matthew Hunt Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/net/cvsupit Makefile Message-ID: <20000530032614.A16325@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <200005291952.MAA74888@freefall.freebsd.org> <20000529130342.A69019@wopr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000529130342.A69019@wopr.caltech.edu>; from mph@astro.caltech.edu on Mon, May 29, 2000 at 01:03:42PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 29, 2000 at 01:03:42PM -0700, Matthew Hunt wrote: > On Mon, May 29, 2000 at 12:52:18PM -0700, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > > Log: > > pedantry: spell FreeBSD.org capitalised thusly > > Counter-pedantry: "Thus" is an adverb already. "Thusly" is an acceptable adverb; Merriam-Webster dates it to 1865. It's usually used at the end of a sentence just as Tim used it, and is interchangeable with "thus". -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 17:45:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 285B237B507 for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 17:45:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA10859; Mon, 29 May 2000 17:45:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 17:45:14 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Alexander Langer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts Message-ID: <20000529174514.B9286@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <20000529210736.A9311@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000529210736.A9311@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from alex@big.endian.de on Mon, May 29, 2000 at 09:07:36PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 29, 2000 at 09:07:36PM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > Hello folks! > > I gonna go to a 500 guys LAN-Party this weekend and I still need the > right T-Shirt for this event. > > Since there will be probably many Linux guys, I need a pretty cool > FreeBSD T-Shirt, maybe even Chuck Killing Tux and then a big > "FreeBSD - there can be only one" or something :-) I like this, The Beastie as an immortal.... hmmmm. The Beastie in a kilt with a broadsword? Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 17:54:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F9637B798 for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 17:54:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r25.bfm.org [216.127.220.121]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 29 May 2000 19:55:57 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000529195411.008ba290@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:54:11 -0500 To: Iain Templeton From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Descartes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000529143533.008f8aa0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:22 30-05-2000 +1000, Iain Templeton wrote: >Well, what would "I think that I think, therefore I think that I am." >be? "Cogito me cogitare ergo cogito me esse." Or, if you want to go for fancy style, "Cogito me cogitare ergo me esse cogito," though many people might have harder time to translate that one to their respective language. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 18:55:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kris.huntsvilleal.com (kris.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BA4B37B9B1 for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 18:55:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kris.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA12941; Mon, 29 May 2000 20:55:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 20:55:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Kris Kirby To: Josef Grosch Cc: Alexander Langer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts In-Reply-To: <20000529174514.B9286@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Since there will be probably many Linux guys, I need a pretty cool > > FreeBSD T-Shirt, maybe even Chuck Killing Tux and then a big > > "FreeBSD - there can be only one" or something :-) > > I like this, The Beastie as an immortal.... hmmmm. The Beastie in a kilt > with a broadsword? This would definately be a good shirt. I wish I could get one (professionally drawn and prepared) of this idea and a scene recreation with Darth Beastie and The Jedi Beastie. Not on the same shirt, two or more seperate shirts. A shirt with a Matrix reference would be nice as well. It's the least they could do (kidding; they've answer more questions than we could hope for.) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 19:16:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3637537B59B for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 19:16:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r23.bfm.org [216.127.220.119]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 29 May 2000 21:17:43 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000529211610.008eb100@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 21:16:10 -0500 To: Iain Templeton From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Descartes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000529195411.008ba290@mail85.pair.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000529143533.008f8aa0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 19:54 29-05-2000 -0500, i wrote: >At 09:22 30-05-2000 +1000, Iain Templeton wrote: >>Well, what would "I think that I think, therefore I think that I am." >>be? > >"Cogito me cogitare ergo cogito me esse." Or, if you want to go for fancy >style, "Cogito me cogitare ergo me esse cogito," though many people might >have harder time to translate that one to their respective language. Perhaps I should add that both of the above are very literal translations. However I cannot imagine any Latin orator putting it that way. If you did not mind losing the "ergo" (and hence the pun, unfortunately), a good idiomatic way of expressing the same idea would be "Cogens me esse cogito." That would literally translate "Thinking, I think that I am," or a little more free translation, "The thinker that I am, I think that I am." You loose the obvious connection to Descartes, but you certainly get better Latin. Your choice. :) Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 29 20:21:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts1.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F22837B841 for ; Mon, 29 May 2000 20:21:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@FreeBSD.org) Received: from orange ([206.172.130.65]) by tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with ESMTP id <20000530032129.ITBE15500.tomts1-srv.bellnexxia.net@orange>; Mon, 29 May 2000 23:21:29 -0400 Received: (from tim@localhost) by orange (8.9.3/8.9.1) id RAA68548; Mon, 29 May 2000 17:25:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 17:25:47 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Matthew Hunt Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/net/cvsupit Makefile Message-ID: <20000529172547.A68389@orange> References: <200005291952.MAA74888@freefall.freebsd.org> <20000529130342.A69019@wopr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <20000529130342.A69019@wopr.caltech.edu>; from Matthew Hunt on Mon, May 29, 2000 at 01:03:42PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 29, 2000 at 01:03:42PM -0700, Matthew Hunt wrote: > On Mon, May 29, 2000 at 12:52:18PM -0700, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > > Log: > > pedantry: spell FreeBSD.org capitalised thusly > > Counter-pedantry: "Thus" is an adverb already. Doh! I'll have to make a null commit to fix it, I suppose. ;-) -- Signature withheld by request of author. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 30 1:33:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B224937BD79; Tue, 30 May 2000 01:33:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA66208; Tue, 30 May 2000 01:33:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 01:33:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: Terry Lambert , Doug Barton , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Arun Sharma , Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software In-Reply-To: <20000524222053.A80883@mad> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 24 May 2000, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > Is the amount of time that the universe can remember finite? Depends on which cosmological model you prefer to believe in :-) > Or, rephrased, the same question: "Are there a finite or an infinite > number of states in which the universe can be?" > > I know of no evidence that space is quantized. Actually, this is a pretty active area of research (noncommutative geometry, one of the things I'm doing in my daytime life). Just like in quantum mechanics you have a non-commuting phase space (in other words, spatial coordinates and momenta do not commute, generating the famous Heisenberg algebra [x, p] = i hbar, which is at the heart of quantum mechanics), in general non-commutative geometry you generalize this so that even the coordinates (and their conjugate momenta) don't commute individually (so e.g. x y != y x where x and y are (operators corresponding to) the coordinates of some particle). As a consequence there exists a Heisenberg uncertainty relation in coordinate space, so you lose the physical notion of a 0-dimensional point in spacetime, and it becomes "smeared out". In other words, space is quantized. (Of course, as other posters have pointed out it still doesn't imply that the universe is a finite-state machine :-) This idea (at least naively) has implications for the nature of high-energy physics: since it imposes a cutoff on short distance scales it may help to tame so-called ultraviolet divergences in quantum field theory and quantum gravity. In practice of course it's not quite so simple :-) Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 30 1:36:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB57737BB4F; Tue, 30 May 2000 01:36:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA66600; Tue, 30 May 2000 01:36:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 01:36:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Terry Lambert Cc: Tim Vanderhoek , Doug Barton , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Arun Sharma , Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: The Ethics of Free Software In-Reply-To: <200005250137.SAA12207@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 25 May 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > Consider that for wealth to exist, it must be accounted, and > there are a finite number of particles in the universe. Now Actually this second clause is invalid: particles can be arbitrarily pair-created from the vacuum :-) I don't even think it's known whether energy conservation holds on a global (universal) scale. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 30 2:28:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18DA37B74D for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 02:28:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA27369; Tue, 30 May 2000 11:26:53 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <4.1.20000530111358.0272d430@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:17:26 +0200 To: Juergen Nickelsen From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Re: San Francisco Chronicle Discovers FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000529141924.008d5100@mail85.pair.com> <3932D914.8F157107@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:20 30.05.00 +0200, Juergen Nickelsen wrote: >Doug Barton writes: > >> "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: >> >> > What amazes me whenever I read articles that list the big Internet users >> > who use FreeBSD is that they never ever mention pair Networks, one of the >> > largest web host providers (perhaps even the largest), which is 100% >> > FreeBSD. They currently host 94,391 sites - that's quite a family of >> > FreeBSD sites! >> >> I'm assuming you mean "largest _paid_ web hosting..." since geocities >> numbers in the millions. :) You're right though, 94k users is a >> goodly chunk, and I didn't know that y'all were using FreeBSD. > >The german company Strato (in cooperation with KPNQwest) claims to >be the largest web hosting service, but I couldn't find any numbers >on their web site. Their data center, they say, is suited for more >than a million domains, so they have probably less than that. >Recently I heard that they said to have had an increase of 400000 >domains last year, so it should be a total between that and a >million. Paid web hosting service, that is, and they are using >Solaris, not FreeBSD. Hi! Well, they just topped 600.000 domains. But they really suck in reliability- Only have one big server running (ok, the big one from Sun, but after all, only one) and plan to stock up to three... Of course, for that hardware you really need Solaris... Have my domain also hosted there, and sometimes its no fun. But they are famous for not letting you leave by simply not signing the KK-agreement to transfer the domain to another web hoster... Regards Olaf Hoyer -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 30 3: 5:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durango.picus.com (durango.picus.com [209.100.20.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462F837B5A4 for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 03:05:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from troy@picus.com) Received: from abyss [209.100.22.250] by durango.picus.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A225185015A; Tue, 30 May 2000 06:04:21 -0400 From: "Troy Settle" To: Subject: RE: FreeBSD for t-shirts Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 06:04:56 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Speaking of... anyone have a URL to those pictures of Darth Beastie, Jedi Beastie and others? All I remember, was someone with a nick of Winter posted long ago about his wife (girlfriend?) Autumn's artwork. -- Troy Settle Network Analyst Picus Communications 540.633.6327 ** -----Original Message----- ** From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG ** [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Kris Kirby ** Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 9:55 PM ** To: Josef Grosch ** Cc: Alexander Langer; chat@FreeBSD.ORG ** Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts ** ** ** > > Since there will be probably many Linux guys, I need a pretty cool ** > > FreeBSD T-Shirt, maybe even Chuck Killing Tux and then a big ** > > "FreeBSD - there can be only one" or something :-) ** > ** > I like this, The Beastie as an immortal.... hmmmm. The ** Beastie in a kilt ** > with a broadsword? ** ** This would definately be a good shirt. I wish I could get one ** (professionally drawn and prepared) of this idea and a scene recreation ** with Darth Beastie and The Jedi Beastie. Not on the same shirt, two or ** more seperate shirts. A shirt with a Matrix reference would be nice as ** well. It's the least they could do (kidding; they've answer ** more questions ** than we could hope for.) ** ** ----- ** Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. ** | ** ------------------------------------------------------- ** "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." ** ** ** ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org ** with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 30 3:24:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70ACF37B517 for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 03:23:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA07714; Tue, 30 May 2000 12:23:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:23:14 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200005301023.MAA07714@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <8guf6j$19ja$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> Organization: Administration TU Clausthal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In list.freebsd-chat Alexander Langer wrote: > I gonna go to a 500 guys LAN-Party this weekend and I still need the > right T-Shirt for this event. > > Since there will be probably many Linux guys, I need a pretty cool > FreeBSD T-Shirt, maybe even Chuck Killing Tux and then a big > "FreeBSD - there can be only one" or something :-) Maybe this is something for you: http://www.fromme.com/chuck_and_tux.jpg The drawing was made by a friend of mine. It's not perfect, and I'm sure Kirk McKusick would not like it, but it's the kind you were asking for... ;-) Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 30 4:25: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94DB837B60E for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 04:24:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA04421; Tue, 30 May 2000 12:23:50 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:23:50 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE forFreeBSDPetition Message-ID: <20000530122350.A2798@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20000527184152.G3471@welearn.com.au> <8gpbuh$1rba$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <20000528073517.H3471@welearn.com.au> <8gsebr$1mn8$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <8gsebr$1mn8$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de>; from naddy@mips.inka.de on Mon, May 29, 2000 at 02:41:31AM +0200 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 29, 2000 at 02:41:31AM +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > In fact, now that I think about it, our installation routine is > available only in English, isn't it? (I've heard that there's a > localized Japanese installer, but it isn't in the repository.) I know the French translation team have expressed an interest in a French sysinstall. Of course, step 1 in this project is localsing sysinstall in the first place. Translating message strings is (I think) somewhat simpler. > - Shouldn't the resources that are spent on translation rather be > devoted to improving documentation or code? Are translators really > a separate group that wouldn't contribute otherwise if they > weren't tied up with translations? I don't think so. Primarily, this is because we have no control over what section of the project people want to contribute to. If someone comes along and wants to contribute by doing translations then I'm not going to say "Well, thanks for volunteering, but we'd rather you didn't, and tried writing some articles instead." If someone comes along and says they can do both, and what should they concentrate on, the decision is still not so clear cut. By translating existing documentation they open it out to a wider audience, some of whom might then contribute back articles (or source code) of their own. > For quite some time now I have been holding the belief that not > everybody is served well by a unix box on their desktop. Lately, > I have become increasingly outspoken about this. The reactions are > interesting. Some people seem to be offended that I don't try to > fanatically convince them to run "Linux" (they haven't heard of > unix yet). No, makes sense. I've been holding the belief for ages that not everybody is served well by a Windows box on their desktop :-) > My latest scheme to make myself unpopular is to become outspoken > about the language issue. I'm sick and tired of the whining about > documentation only being available in English. Is that 'whining' generic, or is it specific to FreeBSD? I haven't seen any (but I don't frequent -questions). N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 30 6:23: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143F437BDAC for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 06:22:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r17.bfm.org [216.127.220.113]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Tue, 30 May 2000 08:24:02 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000530082231.008ede80@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 08:22:31 -0500 To: Iain Templeton From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Descartes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000529211610.008eb100@mail85.pair.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000529195411.008ba290@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20000529143533.008f8aa0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 21:16 29-05-2000 -0500, I wrote: >idiomatic way of expressing the same idea would be "Cogens me esse cogito." Regis: Is that your final answer? Adam: Did I say "cogens"? Regis: It's all Greek to me! Adam: Latin... I meant "cogitans." And it would be clearer with "esse" at the end. I need a vacation. Regis: Is that your final answer? Adam: "Cogitans me cogito esse." Regis: Is that your final anwer? Adam: Yes, it is. Regis (long pause): And you win. Now, shut up! Adam: OK, I will. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 30 7:23:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B1B037BD7C for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 07:23:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from autumn@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (autumn@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA82096; Tue, 30 May 2000 10:23:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 10:23:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jennifer M. Dodd" To: Troy Settle Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: FreeBSD for t-shirts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 30 May 2000, Troy Settle wrote: : Speaking of... anyone have a URL to those pictures of Darth Beastie, Jedi : Beastie and others? http://www.svaha.net/daemon/ : All I remember, was someone with a nick of Winter posted long ago about : his wife (girlfriend?) Autumn's artwork. That would be his wife, me. :) Unfortunately, I haven't been updating the gallery much - but that will change. Jenn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 30 8:51:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6379337B645 for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 08:51:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from cichlids.com (p3E9C1129.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.156.17.41]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20385; Tue, 30 May 2000 17:51:27 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B2C1AC30; Tue, 30 May 2000 17:50:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 94EEA14AD9; Tue, 30 May 2000 17:50:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 17:50:31 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Kris Kirby Cc: Josef Grosch , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts Message-ID: <20000530175031.A5410@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Kris Kirby , Josef Grosch , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000529174514.B9286@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@hiwaay.net on Mon, May 29, 2000 at 08:55:15PM -0500 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Kris Kirby (kris@hiwaay.net): > (professionally drawn and prepared) of this idea and a scene recreation > with Darth Beastie and The Jedi Beastie. Not on the same shirt, two or YES! YES! Can anyone do that? I'm not good at drawing - is anyone? Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 30 10:10: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9267B37B76D for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 10:10:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from redprince@redprince.net) Received: from WhizKid (r6.bfm.org [216.127.220.102]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Tue, 30 May 2000 12:11:04 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000530120914.008aeea0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:09:14 -0500 To: "Jennifer M. Dodd" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: FreeBSD for t-shirts Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:23 30-05-2000 -0400, Jennifer M. Dodd wrote: >That would be his wife, me. :) Unfortunately, I haven't been >updating the gallery much - but that will change. Neat! You wouldn't happen to have a Neo Chuck, would you? I mean, dressed in a long black coat like Neo wore in The Matrix when he went to free Morpheus... Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 30 10:45:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durango.picus.com (durango.picus.com [209.100.20.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72F0D37B68D for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 10:45:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from troy@picus.com) Received: from arcadia [209.100.20.198] by durango.picus.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id ADCA16401EC; Tue, 30 May 2000 13:43:38 -0400 From: "Troy Settle" To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Jennifer M. Dodd" Cc: Subject: RE: FreeBSD for t-shirts Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:47:37 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000530120914.008aeea0@mail85.pair.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If people are going to start tossing out ideas... President Chuck (if Bill Clinton can do it, why not Chuck?) Pope Chuck the First (to bless our work) General Chuck (leading the BSD troops into battle) Tux-Chuck (Chuck in a tuxedo? What will the linux crowd think?) -Troy If only I had the artistic skills to realize these ideas... ** -----Original Message----- ** From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG ** [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of G. Adam Stanislav ** Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 1:09 PM ** To: Jennifer M. Dodd ** Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG ** Subject: RE: FreeBSD for t-shirts ** ** ** At 10:23 30-05-2000 -0400, Jennifer M. Dodd wrote: ** >That would be his wife, me. :) Unfortunately, I haven't been ** >updating the gallery much - but that will change. ** ** Neat! You wouldn't happen to have a Neo Chuck, would you? I mean, dressed ** in a long black coat like Neo wore in The Matrix when he went to free ** Morpheus... ** ** Adam ** ** ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org ** with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 30 14: 9:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moutvdom00.kundenserver.de (moutvdom00.kundenserver.de [195.20.224.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76A6437B766 for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 14:09:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from list@rachinsky.de) Received: from [195.20.224.204] (helo=mrvdom00.kundenserver.de) by moutvdom00.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12wtGT-0008UD-00; Tue, 30 May 2000 23:09:29 +0200 Received: from dialin128-11.tnt01.frankfurt.nikoma.de ([213.54.11.128] helo=gottt) by mrvdom00.kundenserver.de with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12wtGP-0001aZ-00; Tue, 30 May 2000 23:09:25 +0200 Message-ID: <010701bfca7b$737eef30$610b36d5@gottt> From: "Nicolas" To: "Doug Barton" , "Juergen Nickelsen" Cc: , References: <3.0.6.32.20000529141924.008d5100@mail85.pair.com> <3932D914.8F157107@gorean.org> Subject: Re: San Francisco Chronicle Discovers FreeBSD Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:09:16 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Juergen Nickelsen > The german company Strato (in cooperation with KPNQwest) claims to > be the largest web hosting service, but I couldn't find any numbers > on their web site. Their data center, they say, is suited for more > than a million domains, so they have probably less than that. > Recently I heard that they said to have had an increase of 400000 > domains last year, so it should be a total between that and a > million. Paid web hosting service, that is, and they are using > Solaris, not FreeBSD. The numbers of domains or customers is varying between 300,000 and 600,000. Strato has ONE server for nearly all of the domains. (I think they are introducing a second one) Strato has enormous problems with reliability, often they are down for a 12 hours or more You can't call Strato a real webhoster, it's more a kind of a joke Nicolas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 30 15:58:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from telinco.net (internal.mail.telinco.net [212.1.128.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91B1F37B6FD for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 15:58:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.McGarvey@telinco.net) Received: from pilchards.telinco.net ([212.1.128.253] helo=telinco.net) by telinco.net with esmtp (Exim 3.02 #1) id 12wuxv-000Abl-00 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 30 May 2000 23:58:27 +0100 Message-ID: <39344793.972F4908@telinco.net> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 23:58:27 +0100 From: Peter McGarvey Reply-To: Peter.McGarvey@telinco.net Organization: Telinco X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts References: <20000529210736.A9311@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000529174514.B9286@mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > FreeBSD T-Shirt, maybe even Chuck Killing Tux and then a big > "FreeBSD - there can be only one" or something :-) Here's an idea. Why not a T-Shirt that showing the Demon and the Penguin combining forces to overcome the forces of the evil one (uncle Bill) by bringing unix to the masses? Or am I out to lunch here? Indeed, should I, as a FreeBSD user, insult/tourture/maim and Linux user I should ever meet? And what happens if I happen to use Linux too? Do I have to beat myself up? -- TTFN, FNORD Peter McGarvey, Unix Administrator Network Operations Center, Telinco Limited To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 30 16: 0:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFDD737BE87 for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 16:00:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from leviathan (gh.ws.linkfast.net [208.160.105.41]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 0CBBD9B02; Tue, 30 May 2000 18:00:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <002c01bfca8a$dc37df50$2969a0d0@leviathan> From: "gh" To: Cc: References: <20000529210736.A9311@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000529174514.B9286@mooseriver.com> <39344793.972F4908@telinco.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:00:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Indeed, should I, as a FreeBSD user, insult/tourture/maim and Linux user > I should ever meet? > > And what happens if I happen to use Linux too? Do I have to beat myself > up? An emphatic ``YES, Absolutely''. Dan ;-)) > > > -- > TTFN, FNORD > > Peter McGarvey, Unix Administrator > Network Operations Center, Telinco Limited > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 30 16: 6: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from telinco.net (internal.mail.telinco.net [212.1.128.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA08F37B7A8 for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 16:06:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Peter.McGarvey@telinco.net) Received: from pilchards.telinco.net ([212.1.128.253] helo=telinco.net) by telinco.net with esmtp (Exim 3.02 #1) id 12wv5B-000Aje-00; Wed, 31 May 2000 00:05:57 +0100 Message-ID: <39344955.163B1847@telinco.net> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 00:05:57 +0100 From: Peter McGarvey Reply-To: Peter.McGarvey@telinco.net Organization: Telinco X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gh Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts References: <20000529210736.A9311@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000529174514.B9286@mooseriver.com> <39344793.972F4908@telinco.net> <002c01bfca8a$dc37df50$2969a0d0@leviathan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Have you ever noticed that in news stories about the American NRA, that if you repaced "NRA" with "Linux User" it would still sound right. Actually, Linux is not so much an OS as a political statement/way of life. gh wrote: > > > Indeed, should I, as a FreeBSD user, insult/tourture/maim and Linux user > > I should ever meet? > > > > And what happens if I happen to use Linux too? Do I have to beat myself > > up? > > An emphatic ``YES, Absolutely''. > > Dan > > ;-)) > (and before anyone flames me my tounge if firmly in my cheek) -- TTFN, FNORD Peter McGarvey, Unix Administrator Network Operations Center, Telinco Limited To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 31 1:33:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCCF637C04A for ; Wed, 31 May 2000 01:33:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from cichlids.com (p3E9D38C6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.157.56.198]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24978; Wed, 31 May 2000 10:33:37 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D8B9AC30; Wed, 31 May 2000 10:33:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C024014AA3; Wed, 31 May 2000 10:33:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:33:09 +0200 To: Peter McGarvey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts Message-ID: <20000531103309.A1022@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Peter McGarvey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000529210736.A9311@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000529174514.B9286@mooseriver.com> <39344793.972F4908@telinco.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <39344793.972F4908@telinco.net>; from Peter.McGarvey@telinco.net on Tue, May 30, 2000 at 11:58:27PM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. From: alex@big.endian.de (Alexander Langer) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Peter McGarvey (Peter.McGarvey@telinco.net): > Here's an idea. Why not a T-Shirt that showing the Demon and the Penguin > combining forces to overcome the forces of the evil one (uncle Bill) by > bringing unix to the masses? > Or am I out to lunch here? BAH! YES, you are! What were you thinking???? Well, heh. It's quite a good idea, but this time I'll be the only FreeBSD user, I believe, and I really want to annoy the Linux guys :-) > And what happens if I happen to use Linux too? Do I have to beat myself > up? Yes, defenitely. Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 31 5:26:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from terminal.sil.at (terminal.sil.at [194.152.178.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE7C837B699 for ; Wed, 31 May 2000 05:26:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjm@terminal.sil.at) Received: from terminal.sil.at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by terminal.sil.at (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA14553; Wed, 31 May 2000 14:25:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200005311225.OAA14553@terminal.sil.at> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 01/07/2000 To: alex@big.endian.de (Alexander Langer) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts In-reply-to: alex's message of Wed, 31 May 2000 10:33:09 +0200. <20000531103309.A1022@cichlids.cichlids.com> X-Face: "0|_!}6Ay;=lSa@qs\q$u2RZUTyW(m(?80f[OF3eR:4uk6rd&+9lUw"6ACgq]hyak/Io Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Thus spake Peter McGarvey (Peter.McGarvey@telinco.net): > > > Here's an idea. Why not a T-Shirt that showing the Demon and the Penguin > > combining forces to overcome the forces of the evil one (uncle Bill) by > > bringing unix to the masses? > > Or am I out to lunch here? why not something that kix boths butts? > BAH! YES, you are! > What were you thinking???? > > Well, heh. It's quite a good idea, but this time I'll be the only > FreeBSD user, I believe, and I really want to annoy the Linux guys :-) > > > And what happens if I happen to use Linux too? Do I have to beat myself > > up? > > Yes, defenitely. okay. where can I order 10 t-shirts with the infamous ChuckVsTux.jpg ??? I need them NOW! later, cjm -- SILVER SERVER \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\ \\ \ cjm@sil.at, cjm@enemy.org, neo@bsdger.org www.sil.at -- PGP-Key-ID: 0xA941452D - CJM17(-RIPE),SIL-MNT http://www.enemy.org -- "You can tune a file system, but you can't tune a fish." tunefs(8) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 31 7:41: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90C1937BE40 for ; Wed, 31 May 2000 07:41:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (p3E9D38C6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.157.56.198]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA25415; Wed, 31 May 2000 16:41:28 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00060AC30; Wed, 31 May 2000 16:41:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3947114AA3; Wed, 31 May 2000 16:41:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:41:02 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: "Chris J. Mutter" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts Message-ID: <20000531164102.A9572@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Chris J. Mutter" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000531103309.A1022@cichlids.cichlids.com> <200005311225.OAA14553@terminal.sil.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200005311225.OAA14553@terminal.sil.at>; from cjm@terminal.sil.at on Wed, May 31, 2000 at 02:25:27PM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Also sprach Chris J. Mutter (cjm@terminal.sil.at): > okay. where can I order 10 t-shirts with the infamous ChuckVsTux.jpg ??? > I need them NOW! Don't you have T-Shirts-Shops near you? We have one here, which you give a grafik on CD or floppy disk and then they make you a t-shirt of that. > cjm@sil.at, cjm@enemy.org, neo@bsdger.org www.sil.at ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What is your nick? Alex (Doegi) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 31 8:43: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smople.thehub.com.au (smople.thehub.com.au [203.143.240.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A95137B5AA; Wed, 31 May 2000 08:43:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mckay@thehub.com.au) Received: from dungeon.home (bne72.thehub.com.au [203.17.162.72]) by smople.thehub.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA83173; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:42:56 +1000 (EST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA03923; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:43:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay@dungeon.home) Message-Id: <200005311543.BAA03923@dungeon.home> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 1999-10-15 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Tim Vanderhoek , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, mckay@thehub.com.au Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 28 May 2000 13:51:45 +0930." <20000528135144.B15565@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 01:43:17 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > IIRC we agreed to disagree in general on points of spelling and > punctuation which differ from one country to another, even though > we've agreed to stick to two spaces in the documentation project. I > think it's inappropriate to single people out because they choose to > use a different but valid punctuation convention from the one you do. > > In case you missed it, in England and Australia the convention is one > space after a full stop. I agree with your view of retaining the home country quirks of individual writers (it particularly irritates me when documents written in English are converted to American), and I don't like individuals pointed out negatively in commit logs. But your facts are in error. There is no "one space" convention in Australia. I learned typing in school (an actually useful skill, no less), and two spaces were mandatory. I can accept the possibility of regional variation among states, or the more probable dilution of skill due to increased foreign word processor use, but the two space rule has not to my knowledge been revoked. Um. I think I'll send this rant to -chat. BTW, I'm not currently subscribed to -chat if you want to take me to task for my evil ways. I note with some amusement that you included two spaces in the only place in your message where an inter-sentence gap appeared. What are your true feelings on this issue? ;-) Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 31 8:58: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ACD837B5E8 for ; Wed, 31 May 2000 08:58:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from highway@cstone.net) Received: from cstone.net (aylee.mrgoodbucks.com [209.145.93.143]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Wed, 31 May 2000 11:51:32 -0400 Message-ID: <393536DA.F1670D8D@cstone.net> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 11:59:22 -0400 From: Sean Michael Whipkey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter.McGarvey@telinco.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts References: <20000529210736.A9311@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000529174514.B9286@mooseriver.com> <39344793.972F4908@telinco.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Peter McGarvey wrote: > > > FreeBSD T-Shirt, maybe even Chuck Killing Tux and then a big > > "FreeBSD - there can be only one" or something :-) > > Here's an idea. Why not a T-Shirt that showing the Demon and the Penguin > combining forces to overcome the forces of the evil one (uncle Bill) by > bringing unix to the masses? > > Or am I out to lunch here? > > Indeed, should I, as a FreeBSD user, insult/tourture/maim and Linux user > I should ever meet? > > And what happens if I happen to use Linux too? Do I have to beat myself > up? For our Installfest for CHUUG (www.chuug.org) we put a picture of Chuckie and the pipe-smoking Tux bouncing down the stairs together. It was very cool, IMHO. A local artist that I know did it. I'll try to find a picture of it online. SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - All Around Geek "It must be difficult being such a visionary." "Not really. You just have to drink a lot." http://www.goats.com/archive/index.html?990420 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 31 15: 3: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF1C37BF37 for ; Wed, 31 May 2000 15:03:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21624 for ; Wed, 31 May 2000 16:02:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000531155648.00b4bf00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:02:52 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Corel announces free ISP for Linux, Windows, Mac; NOT BSD. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [The following press release just came from Corel. BSD users should urge Corel to support the BSDs as well as Windows, the Mac, and Linux. -BG] Corel and Spinway to Provide Free Internet Access to Corel Customers Ottawa, Canada ­ May 31, 2000 ­ Corel Corporation (NASDAQ: CORL, TSE: COR) and Spinway, Inc. (www.spinway.com), have signed a letter of intent to offer Corel customers free Internet access on the Linux®, Windows® or Macintosh® platforms. Corel and Spinway, a leading provider of co-branded, free dial-up Internet access and premium online advertising technology solutions, intend to offer free multi-platform ISP service to consumers through Corel® LINUX® OS and Corel’s family of Web sites including: www.Corel.com, www.linux.corel.com and www.CorelCity.com. The Corel-branded free ISP will also offer an extensive set of online content and services via the Corel portal site, www.CorelCity.com, including free E-mail, file storage, creativity tools, news, links and shopping. Corel LINUX OS will include a CD of the free ISP service, specifically designed for Corel LINUX OS. “The Linux community is an extremely fast growing consumer market,” said Danny Robinson, president and CEO of Spinway. “Linux users tout the operating system’s ease of use, which is a key differentiator for Spinway’s service as well, helping lead to one of the lowest customer churn rates in the industry.” “By offering a free ISP service, we will provide the type of technologically advanced virtual Internet service that our customers demand,” said Derek J. Burney, executive vice-president, engineering and chief technology officer of Corel Corporation. “Not only is the service free, but there are no streamed advertisements that impact the consumer’s Internet experience.” The Internet advertising network from Spinway avoids the most common consumer issues that often occur in other free ISP services ­ advertisements that dramatically slow down performance, low quality customer support and lack of subscriber privacy. - 30 - About Corel Corel Corporation is an internationally recognized developer of award-winning business productivity, graphics and operating system solutions on the Windows®, Linux®, UNIX®, Macintosh® and Java™ platforms. Corel also develops market-leading, Web-based solutions including applications, contents, e-commerce and online services. For access to these services and more information go to www.corel.com or www.corelcity.com. Corel is headquartered in Ottawa, Canada. Corel’s common stock trades on the NASDAQ Stock Market under the symbol CORL and on the Toronto Stock Exchange under the symbol COR. About Spinway, Inc. Incorporated in January 1999 Spinway, Inc. (www.spinway.com) is enabling Internet advertising to live up to its potential as the most powerful medium in the advertising industry. Spinway is rapidly establishing its advertising network by partnering with offline brand-leaders to co-brand their free ISP services. Within the last five months Spinway has obtained over 2.6 million subscribers while maintaining one of the lowest churn rates in the industry. Spinway offers advertisers a new approach to online advertising that uniquely targets consumers by demographics, psychographics, geography and keyword. Spinway’s proprietary advertising technology tracks advertising impressions and enables full motion video ads to run while consumers are connecting to the service without any performance impact. Spinway does not sell its subscribers’ personal information to advertisers. A sampling of partners include BlueLight.com (NSYE: KM) from Kmart; OurHouse.com the Internet’s premier destination for home solutions, partnered with Ace Hardware; NBCi (Nasdaq: NBCI), a branded global integrated media company; and CollegeClub.com, the leading College Internet community. This press release contains statements that are forward looking as that term is defined by the United States Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements are based on current expectations that are subject to risks and uncertainties. Actual results will differ due to factors such as shifts in customer demand, product shipment schedules, product mix, competitive products and pricing, technological shifts and other variables. Readers are referred to Corel’s most recent reports filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Corel and the Go further logo are trademarks or registered trademarks of Corel Corporation or Corel Corporation Limited. Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds. All other products, fonts, company names and logos are trademarks or registered trademarks of their respective owners. Corel Press Contact: Janet Chen (613) 728-0826 ext. 1285 janetch@corel.com Spinway Press Contacts: Susan Hense (650) 292-1627 susan@corp.spinway.com Michelle Beckstrom Price Public Relations (650) 829-5800 mbeckstrom@pricepr.com -- Janet Chen Communications Manager WordPerfect Suites Corel Corporation 1600 Carling Ave. Ottawa, ON K1Z 8R7 ph: (613) 728-0826 x1285 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 31 15:59:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp7.teleport.com (smtp7.teleport.com [192.108.254.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 517FF37B51B for ; Wed, 31 May 2000 15:59:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dirkm@buster.dhis.org) Received: (qmail 17959 invoked from network); 31 May 2000 22:59:25 -0000 Received: from pm3-02-35.eug.du.teleport.com (HELO buster.dhis.org) (216.26.32.163) by smtp7.teleport.com with SMTP; 31 May 2000 22:59:25 -0000 Received: (from dirkm@localhost) by buster.dhis.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA18749; Wed, 31 May 2000 15:59:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dirkm) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:59:49 -0700 From: Dirk Myers To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Corel announces free ISP for Linux, Windows, Mac; NOT BSD. Message-ID: <20000531155949.F470@teleport.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000531155648.00b4bf00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000531155648.00b4bf00@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, May 31, 2000 at 04:02:52PM -0600 X-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org An infinite number of monkeys (collectively referred to as "Brett Glass") flailed at their keyboards, producing: > “The Linux community is an extremely fast growing consumer market,” said > Danny Robinson, president and CEO of Spinway. “Linux users tout the > operating system’s ease of use, which is a key differentiator for ^^^^^^^^^^^ Er, what? Really? > Spinway’s service as well, helping lead to one of the lowest customer > churn rates in the industry.” Dirk dirkm@teleport.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 31 16:33:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E61C137B8ED for ; Wed, 31 May 2000 16:33:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 8031 invoked from network); 31 May 2000 23:33:12 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 31 May 2000 23:33:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 4915 invoked by uid 211); 31 May 2000 23:33:11 -0000 Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 05:03:11 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dirk Myers Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Corel announces free ISP for Linux, Windows, Mac; NOT BSD. Message-ID: <20000601050310.C4854@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000531155648.00b4bf00@localhost> <20000531155949.F470@teleport.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000531155949.F470@teleport.com>; from dirkm@teleport.com on Wed, May 31, 2000 at 03:59:49PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dirk Myers said on May 31, 2000 at 15:59:49: > An infinite number of monkeys (collectively referred to > as "Brett Glass") flailed at their keyboards, producing: > > > “The Linux community is an extremely fast growing consumer market,” said > > Danny Robinson, president and CEO of Spinway. “Linux users tout the > > operating system’s ease of use, which is a key differentiator for > ^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Er, what? Really? Yes, really. For people who are not unix experts, there is a *vast* difference in ease-of-use between an out-of-the-box linux installation and an out-of-the-box FreeBSD installation. In fact distros like corel linux and recent versions of others are approaching windows in their ease-of-installation and the number of useful desktop applications they offer immediately on install, with point-and-click menu items for each. I don't think it's the main advantage of linux over windows, but it is the main advantage of linux over any other unix-like alternative. As to the press release, yes it would be nice if they mentioned the BSD's. Actually they seem to support Corel Linux specifically, not even other linux distributions. But I'm sure it will work without too much difficulty on other linux distros, and also on FreeBSD with its linuxulator... R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 31 17:21:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12DEA37B935; Wed, 31 May 2000 17:21:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA19981; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:50:56 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:50:56 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Stephen McKay Cc: Tim Vanderhoek , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000601095056.D16657@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20000528135144.B15565@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200005311543.BAA03923@dungeon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200005311543.BAA03923@dungeon.home> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 1:43:17 +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> IIRC we agreed to disagree in general on points of spelling and >> punctuation which differ from one country to another, even though >> we've agreed to stick to two spaces in the documentation project. I >> think it's inappropriate to single people out because they choose to >> use a different but valid punctuation convention from the one you do. >> >> In case you missed it, in England and Australia the convention is one >> space after a full stop. > > I agree with your view of retaining the home country quirks of individual > writers (it particularly irritates me when documents written in English > are converted to American), and I don't like individuals pointed out > negatively in commit logs. But your facts are in error. > > There is no "one space" convention in Australia. I learned typing in school > (an actually useful skill, no less), and two spaces were mandatory. I can > accept the possibility of regional variation among states, or the more > probable dilution of skill due to increased foreign word processor use, > but the two space rule has not to my knowledge been revoked. My statement was based on observation. If you have any documentary backup, it would interest me. > Um. I think I'll send this rant to -chat. BTW, I'm not currently > subscribed to -chat if you want to take me to task for my evil ways. > I note with some amusement that you included two spaces in the only > place in your message where an inter-sentence gap appeared. What > are your true feelings on this issue? ;-) I didn't say I was conventional :-) I use the two space convention because I find it more convenient. But most text written in Australia or England has a single space after the full stop. Period. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 31 17:36:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8B0F437B8A2 for ; Wed, 31 May 2000 17:36:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 8284 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2000 00:36:10 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 1 Jun 2000 00:36:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 5055 invoked by uid 211); 1 Jun 2000 00:36:08 -0000 Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 06:06:07 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg Lehey Cc: Stephen McKay , Tim Vanderhoek , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000601060607.G4854@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Greg Lehey , Stephen McKay , Tim Vanderhoek , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000528135144.B15565@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200005311543.BAA03923@dungeon.home> <20000601095056.D16657@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000601095056.D16657@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 09:50:56AM +0930 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey said on Jun 1, 2000 at 09:50:56: > On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 1:43:17 +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: > > Greg Lehey wrote: -snip- > >> In case you missed it, in England and Australia the convention is one > >> space after a full stop. -snip- > > There is no "one space" convention in Australia. I learned typing in school > > (an actually useful skill, no less), and two spaces were mandatory. I can > > accept the possibility of regional variation among states, or the more > > probable dilution of skill due to increased foreign word processor use, > > but the two space rule has not to my knowledge been revoked. > > My statement was based on observation. If you have any documentary > backup, it would interest me. Based on observation, you're right. But most of the fixed-spaced text one sees these days is email, and based on observation there are no grammatical rules anymore either. In printed material, since everyone uses MS word these days, there is also (based on observation) no difference between em-dashes, en-dashes, hyphens or minus signs, no difference between left and right quotes, no such thing as ligature or kerning or any of the typesetting nittigritties Knuth talks about in "The TeXbook". In fact there is no extra space after sentences in printed material. (I exaggerate, but only slightly, I think.) There are rules, and there are observations, it's not the same thing... End of rant. Actually I'm not a hardliner on the two-spaces thing. But the amount of sloppy typesetting in the world makes me ill -- I don't mind ordinary typewritten stuff, but I can't stand seeing a Word document anymore, because it tries to be publication quality and fails so badly... R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 3:14:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from viking.sophos.com (viking.sophos.com [193.82.145.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF17937B7B4; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 03:14:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tmb@tyne.sophos.com) Received: from tyne.sophos.com (tyne.sophos.com [193.82.145.132]) by viking.sophos.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6576F45C19; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:14:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: (from tmb@localhost) by tyne.sophos.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA11613; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:15:01 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from tmb) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:15:01 +0100 From: Mark Blackman To: Greg Lehey Cc: Stephen McKay , Tim Vanderhoek , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> References: <20000528135144.B15565@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200005311543.BAA03923@dungeon.home> <20000601095056.D16657@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000601095056.D16657@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 09:50:56AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've not done any text analysis of e-mails to discern empirical usage patterns, however a quick poll of five of my British colleagues (I'm a "colonial") suggests that in Britain, two spaces is the rule taught in English and typing classes. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that a number of people writing e-mails these days a) completely ignore their teachers or b) never took any classes. On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 09:50:56AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > I didn't say I was conventional :-) I use the two space convention > because I find it more convenient. But most text written in Australia > or England has a single space after the full stop. Period. > -- Mark Blackman,Internet Systems Administrator,Sophos Anti-Virus e-mail: tmb@sophos.com http://www.sophos.com US Support: +1 888 SOPHOS 9 UK Support: +44 1235 559933 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 3:51:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durango.picus.com (durango.picus.com [209.100.20.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F17137B851; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 03:51:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from troy@picus.com) Received: from abyss [209.100.22.250] by durango.picus.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id AFBA1C80011C; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 06:49:30 -0400 From: "Troy Settle" To: "Mark Blackman" , "Greg Lehey" Cc: "Stephen McKay" , "Tim Vanderhoek" , Subject: RE: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 06:50:18 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok, so we're agreed. Two spaces at the end of a sentence is what we're taught in the US, UK, and AU. Any one from another English speaking country care to share the rules from their freshman keyboarding (typing) class? Just a wild guess here, but I think the rule stems from the laziness of some people to abbr. certain words. You see, abbreviations also require a period, but if they're not at the end of a sentence, it's noted from the single space following. This is also the case in Mr., Mrs., and Ms. Though one wonders why an abbreviation at the end of a sentence doesn't get two periods followed by two spaces. This is certainly an odd feature (bug?) in our language. The fact that some (most?) people don't use two spaces at the end of a sentence is probably due to ignorance, indifference, or laziness. I for one, check for those two spaces as part of the proof reading process (though I'm not always diligent about proof reading). It gets really irritating when doing web pages in a WYSIWYG editor, as most are fond of putting a ' ' in the source, which makes for very ugly HTML. Another spot where these rules bug the hell out of me, is when typing an address in Word. I was taught in high school that there are two spaces between the state and zip code (i.e. 'City, ST 12345'). Most frustrating to see that red wavy line telling me I have an error when I know that I don't. -- Troy Settle Network Analyst Picus Communications 540.633.6327 ** -----Original Message----- ** From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG ** [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Mark Blackman ** Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 6:15 AM ** To: Greg Lehey ** Cc: Stephen McKay; Tim Vanderhoek; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org ** Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: ** src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) ** ** ** I've not done any text analysis of e-mails to discern empirical ** usage patterns, however a quick poll of five of my British colleagues ** (I'm a "colonial") suggests that in Britain, two spaces is ** the rule taught in English and typing classes. ** ** I wouldn't be surprised to discover that a number of people ** writing e-mails these days a) completely ignore their teachers ** or b) never took any classes. ** ** ** On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 09:50:56AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: ** > ** > I didn't say I was conventional :-) I use the two space convention ** > because I find it more convenient. But most text written in ** Australia ** > or England has a single space after the full stop. Period. ** > ** ** -- ** Mark Blackman,Internet Systems Administrator,Sophos Anti-Virus ** e-mail: tmb@sophos.com http://www.sophos.com ** US Support: +1 888 SOPHOS 9 UK Support: +44 1235 559933 ** ** ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org ** with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 3:53:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CD7AB37B851 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 03:53:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 40261 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2000 10:53:41 -0000 Received: from outpost5.inspire.net.nz (HELO outpost.co.nz) (203.96.157.29) by queasy.outpost.co.nz with SMTP; 1 Jun 2000 10:53:41 -0000 Message-ID: <39363D8A.FC43322A@outpost.co.nz> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 22:40:10 +1200 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) References: <20000528135144.B15565@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200005311543.BAA03923@dungeon.home> <20000601095056.D16657@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Blackman wrote: > I've not done any text analysis of e-mails to discern empirical > usage patterns, however a quick poll of five of my British colleagues > (I'm a "colonial") suggests that in Britain, two spaces is > the rule taught in English and typing classes. > > I wouldn't be surprised to discover that a number of people > writing e-mails these days a) completely ignore their teachers > or b) never took any classes. I did one term of typing in Form 3 (erm, age 13), where I was taught to use two spaces after a terminating fullstop. When I started to use computers in Form 4, I was able to continue to touchtype and use everything I'd learnt the previous year - except for the two space rule, which I ignored. (oh, and the correct finger to use on C). -- C. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 5:16: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vortex.greycat.com (vortex.greycat.com [207.173.133.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 12F6837B79A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 05:15:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dann@bigphred.greycat.com) Received: (qmail 31571 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2000 12:15:53 -0000 Received: from bigphred.greycat.com (207.173.133.2) by vortex.greycat.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2000 12:15:53 -0000 Received: (from dann@localhost) by bigphred.greycat.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA11917 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 05:15:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dann) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 05:15:52 -0700 From: Dann Lunsford To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000601051552.A11875@greycat.com> References: <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from troy@picus.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:50:18AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:50:18AM -0400, Troy Settle wrote: > > Another spot where these rules bug the hell out of me, is when typing an > address in Word. I was taught in high school that there are two spaces ^^^^ > between the state and zip code (i.e. 'City, ST 12345'). Most frustrating > to see that red wavy line telling me I have an error when I know that I > don't. I'd say the error is rather obvious... :-) -- Dann Lunsford The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil dann@greycat.com is that men of good will do nothing. -- Cicero To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 10:15:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smople.thehub.com.au (smople.thehub.com.au [203.143.240.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88FBD37B695 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:15:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mckay@thehub.com.au) Received: from dungeon.home (bne51.thehub.com.au [203.17.162.51]) by smople.thehub.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA85034; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 03:15:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA00571; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 03:15:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay@dungeon.home) Message-Id: <200006011715.DAA00571@dungeon.home> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 1999-10-15 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 01 Jun 2000 09:50:56 +0930." <20000601095056.D16657@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 03:15:52 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 1:43:17 +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: > > There is no "one space" convention in Australia. I learned typing in school > > (an actually useful skill, no less), and two spaces were mandatory. I can > > accept the possibility of regional variation among states, or the more > > probable dilution of skill due to increased foreign word processor use, > > but the two space rule has not to my knowledge been revoked. > > My statement was based on observation. If you have any documentary > backup, it would interest me. Hmm. I certainly like formal evidence. But I also haven't retained any of my school textbooks. Still, I have a lot of books, and you never know what might turn up. (eg: A friend said, "I didn't know you had a Russian-English dictionary!" I said, "Me neither.") If I find the typing book I think I have, or that Manual of Style I also might have, I'll be sure to lay the wisdom of past times on you! ;-) Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 10:32:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5109437BA84 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:32:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.7/nospam) with UUCP id TAA10373 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:32:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 6266C87A8; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:18:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:18:07 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000601141807.A40162@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.11i In-Reply-To: ; from troy@picus.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:50:18AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Troy Settle: > The fact that some (most?) people don't use two spaces at the end of a > sentence is probably due to ignorance, indifference, or laziness. I for Speaking as a non native english speaker, I must say that I learned in the FreeBSD mailing-lists that two spaces were required at the end of a sentence... That's interesting. I'll certainly try to remember this in my future emails. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 5.0-CURRENT #79: Sun May 28 01:27:10 CEST 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 10:36:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE30C37BA84 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:36:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from leviathan (gh.ws.linkfast.net [208.160.105.41]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id ABFBA9B20 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:36:22 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <027801bfcbef$eafc5190$2969a0d0@leviathan> From: "gh" To: Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:36:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Ok, so we're agreed. Two spaces at the end of a sentence is what we're > taught in the US, UK, and AU. Any one from another English speaking > country care to share the rules from their freshman keyboarding (typing) > class? Actually, as student of an American school (albeit, not the best) I was taught recently that the two-space convention is antiquated and that in most modern writings a single space is more correct. I have always preferred the two-space convention becuase it not only seems based on research more correct but also more fitting. *runs back to mole hill* Dan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 11:18:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from crli.com (mail-gat.crli.com [207.112.165.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 285F637B7CE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:18:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crli@crli.com) Received: from CORP#u#DOM-Message_Server by crli.com with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:15:39 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:15:11 -0500 From: "Joe Walsh" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> "gh" 06/01/00 12:36PM >>> > > > > Ok, so we're agreed. Two spaces at the end of a sentence is what = we're > > taught in the US, UK, and AU. Any one from another English speaking > > country care to share the rules from their freshman keyboarding = (typing) > > class? > Actually, as student of an American school (albeit, not the best) I was > taught > recently that the two-space convention is antiquated and that in most > modern > writings a single space is more correct. I have always preferred the > two-space convention > becuase it not only seems based on research more correct but also more > fitting. > *runs back to mole hill* > Dan When I was doing freelance writing, my editor required that all electronic = manuscripts be submitted with 1 space following each sentence, rather than = 2. I believe the typographical layout software (such as Quark) then = figures out how much actual space to put after the punctuation based on = the needs of the line as it will be printed. -Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 11:57:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B76137B722; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:57:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.86.40]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000601185722.WLHP290.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:57:22 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01077; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:01:45 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:01:44 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Troy Settle Cc: Mark Blackman , Greg Lehey , Stephen McKay , Tim Vanderhoek , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000601180144.A233@parish> References: <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from troy@picus.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:50:18AM -0400 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:50:18AM -0400, Troy Settle wrote: > > Ok, so we're agreed. Two spaces at the end of a sentence is what we're > taught in the US, UK, and AU. Any one from another English speaking ^^^^ Really? Not when I was at school, mind you it was, erm, late 60's, early '70's. Also ISTR Greg Lehey saying a single space was the AU way as well. > country care to share the rules from their freshman keyboarding (typing) > class? > > Just a wild guess here, but I think the rule stems from the laziness of > some people to abbr. certain words. You see, abbreviations also require a > period, but if they're not at the end of a sentence, it's noted from the > single space following. This is also the case in Mr., Mrs., and Ms. > Though one wonders why an abbreviation at the end of a sentence doesn't > get two periods followed by two spaces. This is certainly an odd feature > (bug?) in our language. > > The fact that some (most?) people don't use two spaces at the end of a > sentence is probably due to ignorance, indifference, or laziness. I for > one, check for those two spaces as part of the proof reading process > (though I'm not always diligent about proof reading). It gets really > irritating when doing web pages in a WYSIWYG editor, as most are fond of > putting a ' ' in the source, which makes for very ugly HTML. > > Another spot where these rules bug the hell out of me, is when typing an > address in Word. I was taught in high school that there are two spaces > between the state and zip code (i.e. 'City, ST 12345'). Most frustrating > to see that red wavy line telling me I have an error when I know that I > don't. > > -- > Troy Settle > Network Analyst > Picus Communications > 540.633.6327 > > > ** -----Original Message----- > ** From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > ** [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Mark Blackman > ** Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 6:15 AM > ** To: Greg Lehey > ** Cc: Stephen McKay; Tim Vanderhoek; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org > ** Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: > ** src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) > ** > ** > ** I've not done any text analysis of e-mails to discern empirical > ** usage patterns, however a quick poll of five of my British colleagues > ** (I'm a "colonial") suggests that in Britain, two spaces is > ** the rule taught in English and typing classes. > ** > ** I wouldn't be surprised to discover that a number of people > ** writing e-mails these days a) completely ignore their teachers > ** or b) never took any classes. > ** > ** > ** On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 09:50:56AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > ** > > ** > I didn't say I was conventional :-) I use the two space convention > ** > because I find it more convenient. But most text written in > ** Australia > ** > or England has a single space after the full stop. Period. > ** > > ** > ** -- > ** Mark Blackman,Internet Systems Administrator,Sophos Anti-Virus > ** e-mail: tmb@sophos.com http://www.sophos.com > ** US Support: +1 888 SOPHOS 9 UK Support: +44 1235 559933 > ** > ** > ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > ** with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > ** > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 11:59:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6CD37B722; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:59:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.86.40]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000601185913.WLOQ290.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:59:13 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA00454; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:59:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:01:44 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Troy Settle Cc: Mark Blackman , Greg Lehey , Stephen McKay , Tim Vanderhoek , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000601180144.A233@parish> References: <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from troy@picus.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:50:18AM -0400 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:50:18AM -0400, Troy Settle wrote: > > Ok, so we're agreed. Two spaces at the end of a sentence is what we're > taught in the US, UK, and AU. Any one from another English speaking ^^^^ Really? Not when I was at school, mind you it was, erm, late 60's, early '70's. Also ISTR Greg Lehey saying a single space was the AU way as well. > country care to share the rules from their freshman keyboarding (typing) > class? > > Just a wild guess here, but I think the rule stems from the laziness of > some people to abbr. certain words. You see, abbreviations also require a > period, but if they're not at the end of a sentence, it's noted from the > single space following. This is also the case in Mr., Mrs., and Ms. > Though one wonders why an abbreviation at the end of a sentence doesn't > get two periods followed by two spaces. This is certainly an odd feature > (bug?) in our language. > > The fact that some (most?) people don't use two spaces at the end of a > sentence is probably due to ignorance, indifference, or laziness. I for > one, check for those two spaces as part of the proof reading process > (though I'm not always diligent about proof reading). It gets really > irritating when doing web pages in a WYSIWYG editor, as most are fond of > putting a ' ' in the source, which makes for very ugly HTML. > > Another spot where these rules bug the hell out of me, is when typing an > address in Word. I was taught in high school that there are two spaces > between the state and zip code (i.e. 'City, ST 12345'). Most frustrating > to see that red wavy line telling me I have an error when I know that I > don't. > > -- > Troy Settle > Network Analyst > Picus Communications > 540.633.6327 > > > ** -----Original Message----- > ** From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > ** [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Mark Blackman > ** Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 6:15 AM > ** To: Greg Lehey > ** Cc: Stephen McKay; Tim Vanderhoek; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org > ** Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: > ** src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) > ** > ** > ** I've not done any text analysis of e-mails to discern empirical > ** usage patterns, however a quick poll of five of my British colleagues > ** (I'm a "colonial") suggests that in Britain, two spaces is > ** the rule taught in English and typing classes. > ** > ** I wouldn't be surprised to discover that a number of people > ** writing e-mails these days a) completely ignore their teachers > ** or b) never took any classes. > ** > ** > ** On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 09:50:56AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > ** > > ** > I didn't say I was conventional :-) I use the two space convention > ** > because I find it more convenient. But most text written in > ** Australia > ** > or England has a single space after the full stop. Period. > ** > > ** > ** -- > ** Mark Blackman,Internet Systems Administrator,Sophos Anti-Virus > ** e-mail: tmb@sophos.com http://www.sophos.com > ** US Support: +1 888 SOPHOS 9 UK Support: +44 1235 559933 > ** > ** > ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > ** with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > ** > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 12:24:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durango.picus.com (durango.picus.com [209.100.20.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C454137B8D0 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:24:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from troy@picus.com) Received: from arcadia [209.100.20.198] by durango.picus.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A805DE01BA; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 15:22:45 -0400 From: "Troy Settle" To: Subject: RE: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:26:57 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-Reply-To: <20000601180144.A233@parish> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok... I was just summarizing what others were saying and tossing in my own .02. Greg said one space. Someone else from AU said 2. Yet another person indicated that his British friends said 2. I know 2 from my own typing class back in '84. so... -Troy ** -----Original Message----- ** From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG ** [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Mark Ovens ** Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 1:02 PM ** To: Troy Settle ** Cc: Mark Blackman; Greg Lehey; Stephen McKay; Tim Vanderhoek; ** freebsd-chat@freebsd.org ** Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: ** src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) ** ** ** On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:50:18AM -0400, Troy Settle wrote: ** > ** > Ok, so we're agreed. Two spaces at the end of a sentence is what we're ** > taught in the US, UK, and AU. Any one from another English speaking ** ^^^^ ** Really? Not when I was at school, mind you it was, erm, late 60's, ** early '70's. Also ISTR Greg Lehey saying a single space was the AU way ** as well. ** ** > country care to share the rules from their freshman ** keyboarding (typing) ** > class? ** > ** > Just a wild guess here, but I think the rule stems from the laziness of ** > some people to abbr. certain words. You see, abbreviations ** also require a ** > period, but if they're not at the end of a sentence, it's ** noted from the ** > single space following. This is also the case in Mr., Mrs., and Ms. ** > Though one wonders why an abbreviation at the end of a sentence doesn't ** > get two periods followed by two spaces. This is certainly an ** odd feature ** > (bug?) in our language. ** > ** > The fact that some (most?) people don't use two spaces at the end of a ** > sentence is probably due to ignorance, indifference, or ** laziness. I for ** > one, check for those two spaces as part of the proof reading process ** > (though I'm not always diligent about proof reading). It gets really ** > irritating when doing web pages in a WYSIWYG editor, as most ** are fond of ** > putting a ' ' in the source, which makes for very ugly HTML. ** > ** > Another spot where these rules bug the hell out of me, is when ** typing an ** > address in Word. I was taught in high school that there are two spaces ** > between the state and zip code (i.e. 'City, ST 12345'). Most ** frustrating ** > to see that red wavy line telling me I have an error when I know that I ** > don't. ** > ** > -- ** > Troy Settle ** > Network Analyst ** > Picus Communications ** > 540.633.6327 ** > ** > ** > ** -----Original Message----- ** > ** From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG ** > ** [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Mark Blackman ** > ** Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 6:15 AM ** > ** To: Greg Lehey ** > ** Cc: Stephen McKay; Tim Vanderhoek; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org ** > ** Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: ** > ** src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) ** > ** ** > ** ** > ** I've not done any text analysis of e-mails to discern empirical ** > ** usage patterns, however a quick poll of five of my British ** colleagues ** > ** (I'm a "colonial") suggests that in Britain, two spaces is ** > ** the rule taught in English and typing classes. ** > ** ** > ** I wouldn't be surprised to discover that a number of people ** > ** writing e-mails these days a) completely ignore their teachers ** > ** or b) never took any classes. ** > ** ** > ** ** > ** On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 09:50:56AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: ** > ** > ** > ** > I didn't say I was conventional :-) I use the two space ** convention ** > ** > because I find it more convenient. But most text written in ** > ** Australia ** > ** > or England has a single space after the full stop. Period. ** > ** > ** > ** ** > ** -- ** > ** Mark Blackman,Internet Systems Administrator,Sophos Anti-Virus ** > ** e-mail: tmb@sophos.com http://www.sophos.com ** > ** US Support: +1 888 SOPHOS 9 UK Support: +44 1235 559933 ** > ** ** > ** ** > ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org ** > ** with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ** > ** ** > ** > ** > ** > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org ** > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ** ** -- ** ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX ** ________________________________________________________________ ** FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org ** My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ ** mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com ** ** ** ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org ** with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 13:14:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89F9E37BEEF for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from leviathan (gh.ws.linkfast.net [208.160.105.41]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A8C519B1D; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:14:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <002b01bfcc05$f5ae8020$2969a0d0@leviathan> From: "gh" To: "Troy Settle" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:14:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Ok... > > I was just summarizing what others were saying and tossing in my own .02. > > Greg said one space. Someone else from AU said 2. > > Yet another person indicated that his British friends said 2. > > I know 2 from my own typing class back in '84. > I believe (not to justify it) that the main argument is that manual typesetting and typewriting are antiquated and as such using a two-space convention is no longer necessary. I happen to believe that such thinking is ignorant and lazy. Blah. Dan > so... > > -Troy > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 14:27:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D5137B6C5 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:27:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@mips.inka.de) Received: from bigeye.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 12xcUY-0004tE-04; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:27:02 +0200 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.mips.inka.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA06812 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:23:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Date: 1 Jun 2000 23:23:54 +0200 Message-ID: <8h6k9a$6ke$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> References: <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> <20000601141807.A40162@keltia.freenix.fr> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ollivier Robert wrote: > Speaking as a non native english speaker, I must say that I learned in the > FreeBSD mailing-lists that two spaces were required at the end of a > sentence... The block fill functions of some editors as well as fmt(1) give it away, too. > I'll certainly try to remember this in my future emails. I trust you already noticed that English doesn't share the French habit of putting a space before '?' and '!'? -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 14:27:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BC7937B6C9 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:27:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@mips.inka.de) Received: from bigeye.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 12xcUY-0004tE-03; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:27:02 +0200 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.mips.inka.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA06463 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:12:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE forFreeBSDPetition Date: 1 Jun 2000 23:12:10 +0200 Message-ID: <8h6jja$69m$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> References: <20000528073517.H3471@welearn.com.au> <8gsebr$1mn8$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> <20000530122350.A2798@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nik Clayton wrote: > > I'm sick and tired of the whining about documentation only > > being available in English. > > Is that 'whining' generic, or is it specific to FreeBSD? It's quite generic. > I haven't seen any (but I don't frequent -questions). You're not going to see it on English-language mailing lists. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 14:48:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F7537B6C9 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:48:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from leviathan (gh.ws.linkfast.net [208.160.105.41]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 5578A9B09; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:48:16 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <006d01bfcc13$1b573c10$2969a0d0@leviathan> From: "gh" To: "Christian Weisgerber" Cc: References: <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> <20000601141807.A40162@keltia.freenix.fr> <8h6k9a$6ke$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:48:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I'll certainly try to remember this in my future emails. > > I trust you already noticed that English doesn't share the French > habit of putting a space before '?' and '!'? > In honesty, I find myself wanting occasionally to insert such a space. French does not include such a convention for the `.' ? ;-)) Please excuse my ignorance. Dan > -- > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 15:20:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta01-svc.server.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A13A37B59A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:20:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scott.mitchell@mail.com) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([62.253.85.90]) by mta01-svc.server.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000601222002.BLFK381.mta01-svc.server.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com>; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:20:02 +0100 Received: (from scott@localhost) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA01362; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:20:00 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from scott) Message-ID: <20000601231959.48469@localhost> Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:19:59 +0100 From: Scott Mitchell To: Troy Settle Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) References: <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Troy Settle on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:50:18AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:50:18AM -0400, Troy Settle wrote: > > Ok, so we're agreed. Two spaces at the end of a sentence is what we're > taught in the US, UK, and AU. Any one from another English speaking > country care to share the rules from their freshman keyboarding (typing) > class? Two spaces in .nz -- at least that's what I was told in the one brief typing class I ever took. No idea if it was a commonplace thing of just the opinion of one teacher though. Typographically speaking, inter-sentence spacing is supposed to be longer than inter-word spacing. Real typesetting systems (eg. TeX) get this right. I'd assume the two-space rule was an attempt to approximate this in the fixed-width font of a manual typewriter. You'll notice that although I never learned to touch-type the approved way, the two-space thing did take :-) Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 15:24:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 657EE37B7A3 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:24:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21986 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:25:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:25:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions In-Reply-To: <8h6k9a$6ke$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 1 Jun 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: >Ollivier Robert wrote: > >> Speaking as a non native english speaker, I must say that I learned in the >> FreeBSD mailing-lists that two spaces were required at the end of a >> sentence... > >The block fill functions of some editors as well as fmt(1) give it >away, too. > >> I'll certainly try to remember this in my future emails. > >I trust you already noticed that English doesn't share the French >habit of putting a space before '?' and '!'? > >Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de Since this is -chat, what the hey... One thing I find annoying is people who put a . before ?'s, could this be a convention or just bad typing? Something like Blah blah blah blah blah.? I think I've only seen it on irc... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 15:30:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A80D37B7E9 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:30:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04251; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:29:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 16:29:25 -0600 To: Ollivier Robert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) In-Reply-To: <20000601141807.A40162@keltia.freenix.fr> References: <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:18 AM 6/1/2000, Ollivier Robert wrote: >According to Troy Settle: >> The fact that some (most?) people don't use two spaces at the end of a >> sentence is probably due to ignorance, indifference, or laziness. I for > >Speaking as a non native english speaker, I must say that I learned in the >FreeBSD mailing-lists that two spaces were required at the end of a >sentence... That convention dates back to the time of hand-set type and has, of late, been abandoned. One space is now not only acceptable but preferred in business correspondence. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 15:59:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from c1mailgw4.prontomail.com (admin.commtouch.com [208.178.29.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2BB337B9A7 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:59:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from c1mail01.prontomail.com (208.178.29.101) by c1mailgw4.prontomail.com (NPlex 4.5.049) id 3923BF4B00177D7D for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:59:02 -0700 Received: by c1mail01.prontomail.com (NPlex 2.0.123); Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:58:53 -0700 Received: from 200.41.109.83 by SmtpServer for ; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 22:53:02 +0000 Message-ID: <3936C9B7.D5DC1E62@asme.org> Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 15:38:15 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) References: <027801bfcbef$eafc5190$2969a0d0@leviathan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FWIW, In Colombia there is a set of technical norms that follow closely the ISO standards on written documention. The latest standard I checked clearly states that two spaces should be used following a period or a colon. This standards only apply to written dissertations and academic reports. On daily life no one uses them besices, they are not ecologically sound. In recent years the engineering library is also having space problems so they are asking people to print on both sides of the paper sheets. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 16:32:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B434A37B8BF; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:32:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA27513; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:32:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAbGaiS1; Thu Jun 1 16:32:04 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA00560; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:32:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006012332.QAA00560@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE forFreeBSDPetition To: nik@FreeBSD.ORG (Nik Clayton) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:32:18 +0000 (GMT) Cc: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000530122350.A2798@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> from "Nik Clayton" at May 30, 2000 12:23:50 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Mon, May 29, 2000 at 02:41:31AM +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > In fact, now that I think about it, our installation routine is > > available only in English, isn't it? (I've heard that there's a > > localized Japanese installer, but it isn't in the repository.) > > I know the French translation team have expressed an interest in a French > sysinstall. > > Of course, step 1 in this project is localsing sysinstall in the first > place. Translating message strings is (I think) somewhat simpler. I have XPG/4 tools which would allow this to be done using macros in the source code to derive the initial "C" locale catalog from the source code. It could be re-derived, as necessary. The need to perform translation is really trivial, compared to this. I am willing to make these tools available. They do not understand "#if" based block comments (for obvious reasons), and they do not understand C++ sytle comments, but they should be usable against perl, C, and C++ code because of the regularity of the grammar. The tool is, in effect, a source post processor combined with a set of preprocessor macros for inclusion in the code (perl people would need to roll their own). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 16:35:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FF5B37BAB8 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:35:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA24196; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:35:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAqoaimV; Thu Jun 1 16:35:40 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA00649; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:35:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006012335.QAA00649@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE To: tms2@mail.ptd.net (Thomas M. Sommers) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:35:33 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <392F6CAC.1988C2EA@mail.ptd.net> from "Thomas M. Sommers" at May 27, 2000 02:35:24 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I think the important thing is not to create false expectations (of ease > and simplicity) in the minds of those who have never been exposed to a > real operating system. I think the import thing is to create TRUE expectations of ease of use and simplicity in the minds of those who have never been exposed to FreeBSD. Of course that means changing the code to have those as attributes. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 16:38:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFB6037B9B2 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:38:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA22871; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:07:45 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:07:45 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Ollivier Robert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000602090744.Q20158@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> <20000601141807.A40162@keltia.freenix.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 16:29:25 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:18 AM 6/1/2000, Ollivier Robert wrote: > >> According to Troy Settle: >>> The fact that some (most?) people don't use two spaces at the end of a >>> sentence is probably due to ignorance, indifference, or laziness. I for >> >> Speaking as a non native english speaker, I must say that I learned in the >> FreeBSD mailing-lists that two spaces were required at the end of a >> sentence... > > That convention dates back to the time of hand-set type and has, of late, > been abandoned. One space is now not only acceptable but preferred in > business correspondence. Do you have any documentation to back this up? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 16:40:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A92337B9A8; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:40:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA22888; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:08:33 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:08:33 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mark Ovens Cc: Troy Settle , Mark Blackman , Stephen McKay , Tim Vanderhoek , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000602090832.R20158@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> <20000601180144.A233@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000601180144.A233@parish> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 18:01:44 +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:50:18AM -0400, Troy Settle wrote: >> >> Ok, so we're agreed. Two spaces at the end of a sentence is what we're >> taught in the US, UK, and AU. Any one from another English speaking > ^^^^ > Really? Not when I was at school, mind you it was, erm, late 60's, > early '70's. Also ISTR Greg Lehey saying a single space was the AU way > as well. Yes, but I also said that that was by observation, and others have contradicted this statement. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 16:41:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01A1737BA01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:41:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA22905; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:11:37 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:11:37 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Scott Mitchell Cc: Troy Settle , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000602091137.S20158@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> <20000601231959.48469@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000601231959.48469@localhost> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 23:19:59 +0100, Scott Mitchell wrote: > On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:50:18AM -0400, Troy Settle wrote: >> >> Ok, so we're agreed. Two spaces at the end of a sentence is what we're >> taught in the US, UK, and AU. Any one from another English speaking >> country care to share the rules from their freshman keyboarding (typing) >> class? > > Two spaces in .nz -- at least that's what I was told in the one brief typing > class I ever took. No idea if it was a commonplace thing of just the > opinion of one teacher though. > > Typographically speaking, inter-sentence spacing is supposed to be longer > than inter-word spacing. Real typesetting systems (eg. TeX) get this > right. You'll observe that TeX also gives you the choice of spacing after a full stop. \frenchspacing (sic) gives the equivalent of a single space. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 16:44:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F6437B95F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:44:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA22925; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:13:47 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:13:47 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Joe Walsh , gh Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000602091347.T20158@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 13:15:11 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote: >>>> "gh" 06/01/00 12:36PM >>> >>> >>> Ok, so we're agreed. Two spaces at the end of a sentence is what we're >>> taught in the US, UK, and AU. Any one from another English speaking >>> country care to share the rules from their freshman keyboarding (typing) >>> class? > >> Actually, as student of an American school (albeit, not the best) I was >> taught >> recently that the two-space convention is antiquated and that in most >> modern >> writings a single space is more correct. I have always preferred the >> two-space convention >> becuase it not only seems based on research more correct but also more >> fitting. > >> *runs back to mole hill* > >> Dan > > When I was doing freelance writing, my editor required that all electronic manuscripts be submitted with 1 space following each sentence, rather than 2. I believe the typographical layout software (such as Quark) then figures out how much actual space to put after the punctuation based on the needs of the line as it will be printed. Did you two also learn something about line length? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 16:51:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8437B37B9FE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:51:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA22947; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:20:32 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:20:32 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: gh Cc: Troy Settle , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000602092032.U20158@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <002b01bfcc05$f5ae8020$2969a0d0@leviathan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <002b01bfcc05$f5ae8020$2969a0d0@leviathan> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 15:14:08 -0500, gh wrote: >> >> Ok... >> >> I was just summarizing what others were saying and tossing in my own .02. >> >> Greg said one space. Someone else from AU said 2. >> >> Yet another person indicated that his British friends said 2. >> >> I know 2 from my own typing class back in '84. > > I believe (not to justify it) that the main argument is that manual > typesetting and typewriting are antiquated and as such using a > two-space convention is no longer necessary. If you look at professionally typeset documents such as books and newspapers, you'll notice more space at the end of sentences than between individual words in US American texts. In French and German texts there is generally less space, and there is no more space at the end of sentences than between individual words. In British texts I've seen both cases, but there's reason to believe that more traditional texts use less space at the end of sentences. I had always thought that the typing rules attempted to follow this practice. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 16:54: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA64A37B9C4 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:54:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA04065; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:53:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAK5aO2h; Thu Jun 1 16:53:36 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA01679; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:53:49 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006012353.QAA01679@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts To: Peter.McGarvey@telinco.net Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:53:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: grasshacker@linkfast.net (gh), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <39344955.163B1847@telinco.net> from "Peter McGarvey" at May 31, 2000 12:05:57 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Have you ever noticed that in news stories about the American NRA, that > if you repaced "NRA" with "Linux User" it would still sound right. > Actually, Linux is not so much an OS as a political statement/way of > life. "Charleton Heston was elected as president of the Linux user." Sorry, just doesn't have the same ring. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 17: 0:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F012737BA02; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:00:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA10301; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:59:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAADgaGeu; Thu Jun 1 16:59:50 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA01967; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:00:04 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006020000.RAA01967@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:00:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mckay@thehub.com.au (Stephen McKay), hoek@FreeBSD.ORG (Tim Vanderhoek), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000601095056.D16657@wantadilla.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Jun 01, 2000 09:50:56 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I didn't say I was conventional :-) I use the two space convention > because I find it more convenient. But most text written in Australia > or England has a single space after the full stop. Period. I looked at my science fiction books published in England. They are all two spaces following the period, even the most recent ones. Just like I was taught in grammer school. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 17: 4:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from be-well.ilk.org (lowellg.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.184.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5725C37B9FE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:03:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lowell@be-well.ilk.org) Received: (from lowell@localhost) by be-well.ilk.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA85595; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:03:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lowell) From: Lowell Gilbert To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) References: <8h6s6s$9sb$1@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw> Date: 01 Jun 2000 20:03:33 -0400 In-Reply-To: grog@lemis.com's message of "2 Jun 2000 07:39:08 +0800" Message-ID: <44g0qxymne.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) writes: > On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 16:29:25 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > That convention dates back to the time of hand-set type and has, of late, > > been abandoned. One space is now not only acceptable but preferred in > > business correspondence. > > Do you have any documentation to back this up? Which part? The first sentence was certainly false: hand-set type in English conventionally used spacing that was *between* one and two spaces wide. I'd question the second one, too, on the basis that most business correspondence is now done with methods that attempt to imitate that particular hand-type convention. - Lowell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 17:15: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durango.picus.com (durango.picus.com [209.100.20.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B75D37BA02 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:14:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from troy@picus.com) Received: from abyss [209.100.22.250] by durango.picus.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id AC22358015C; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:13:22 -0400 From: "Troy Settle" To: "Adam" , Subject: RE: Punctuation conventions Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:14:13 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ** Since this is -chat, what the hey... ** One thing I find annoying is people who put a . before ?'s, ** could this be ** a convention or just bad typing? Something like ** ** Blah blah blah blah blah.? ** ** I think I've only seen it on irc... ** Now there's a source for learning proper composition and typing skills. -Troy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 17:15:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta01-svc.server.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D244437BAA6; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:15:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.84.161]) by mta01-svc.server.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000602001513.BVFH381.mta01-svc.server.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 01:15:13 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA01152; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 01:15:12 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 01:15:12 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Terry Lambert Cc: Greg Lehey , Stephen McKay , Tim Vanderhoek , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000602011512.C535@parish> References: <20000601095056.D16657@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200006020000.RAA01967@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200006020000.RAA01967@usr07.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 12:00:03AM +0000 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 12:00:03AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I didn't say I was conventional :-) I use the two space convention > > because I find it more convenient. But most text written in Australia > > or England has a single space after the full stop. Period. > > I looked at my science fiction books published in England. > > They are all two spaces following the period, even the most > recent ones. Just like I was taught in grammer school. ^^^^^^^ :) Sorry, couldn't resist picking that up. Kind of reminds me of a dictionary that had to be recalled a few years ago by the publishers due to a spelling mistake. The mis-spelled word? "Illiterate" > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 17:23:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durango.picus.com (durango.picus.com [209.100.20.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63EE337B9A7 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:23:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from troy@picus.com) Received: from abyss [209.100.22.250] by durango.picus.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id AE0937F015C; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:21:29 -0400 From: "Troy Settle" To: Subject: RE: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:22:20 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-reply-to: <20000602090744.Q20158@wantadilla.lemis.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ** From: Greg Lehey ** ** On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 16:29:25 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: ** > ** > That convention dates back to the time of hand-set type and ** has, of late, ** > been abandoned. One space is now not only acceptable but preferred in ** > business correspondence. ** ** Do you have any documentation to back this up? ** Probably biting off much more than I can chew here, but do you honestly expect Brett to have documentation? I'd imagine that his over-abundance of opinion leaves little room for documented facts. -Troy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 17:24:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36A3937BA9F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:24:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23167; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:53:56 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:53:56 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Lowell Gilbert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000602095356.E22978@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <8h6s6s$9sb$1@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw> <44g0qxymne.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <44g0qxymne.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 20:03:33 -0400, Lowell Gilbert wrote: > grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) writes: > >> On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 16:29:25 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >>> That convention dates back to the time of hand-set type and has, of late, >>> been abandoned. One space is now not only acceptable but preferred in >>> business correspondence. >> >> Do you have any documentation to back this up? > > Which part? The last part: "One space is now not only acceptable but preferred in business correspondence.". > The first sentence was certainly false: hand-set type in English > conventionally used spacing that was *between* one and two spaces > wide. I don't see that machine-set type should be any different. In typesetting we're always talking about variable width spacing, and the only real issue is the relationship between interword and intersentence spacing. It seems that in England this relationship has been growing over the years. > I'd question the second one, too, on the basis that most business > correspondence is now done with methods that attempt to imitate that > particular hand-type convention. 1½ spaces? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 17:24:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (pop3.pioneernet.net [208.240.196.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B9C737BAE6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:24:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from chip.wiegand.org [208.194.173.26] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.00) id A0851ECF0092; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 17:32:05 -0700 From: chip To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: XFCE Window Manager Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:22:24 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just recently changed from using KDE to using XFCE and find it quite nice, certainly much faster than the graphics heavy KDE. And it will run the few KDE apps that I use without a problem. I am wondering about others impressions and experience with XFCE? I have also used Afterstep but think I might just stick with XFCE. Themes and other fancy eye-candy don't mean much to me, just a clean interface where I can get some work done, and TWM is a bit too sparton. -- Chip Wiegand ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ visit Alternative Operating Systems www.wiegand.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 17:26: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durango.picus.com (durango.picus.com [209.100.20.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB3A537BA2C for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:26:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from troy@picus.com) Received: from abyss [209.100.22.250] by durango.picus.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id AEC0390015C; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:24:32 -0400 From: "Troy Settle" To: Subject: RE: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:25:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-reply-to: <44g0qxymne.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ** From: Lowell Gilbert ** grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) writes: ** ** > On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 16:29:25 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: ** ** > > That convention dates back to the time of hand-set type ** and has, of late, ** > > been abandoned. One space is now not only acceptable but ** preferred in ** > > business correspondence. ** > ** > Do you have any documentation to back this up? ** ** Which part? The first sentence was certainly false: hand-set type in ** English conventionally used spacing that was *between* one and two ** spaces wide. I'd question the second one, too, on the basis that most ** business correspondence is now done with methods that attempt to ** imitate that particular hand-type convention. ** Thanks for the reminder. I do remember having used several antique typewriters that had a "half-space" key. It was for exactly this purpose, though seldom used because most typewriters lacked this feature. It was nice for getting text centered correctly though. -Troy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 17:48:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32FD537B5BD for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:48:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05626; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:48:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601184749.04486b50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 18:48:15 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Cc: Ollivier Robert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000602090744.Q20158@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> <20000601141807.A40162@keltia.freenix.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:37 PM 6/1/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: >> That convention dates back to the time of hand-set type and has, of late, >> been abandoned. One space is now not only acceptable but preferred in >> business correspondence. > >Do you have any documentation to back this up? Check any recent text on business correspondence style. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 17:52:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04FFF37BAA6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:52:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA23385; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:22:11 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:22:11 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Ollivier Robert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000602102211.K22978@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> <20000601141807.A40162@keltia.freenix.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> <20000602090744.Q20158@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000601184749.04486b50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601184749.04486b50@localhost> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 18:48:15 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:37 PM 6/1/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> That convention dates back to the time of hand-set type and has, of late, >>> been abandoned. One space is now not only acceptable but preferred in >>> business correspondence. >> >> Do you have any documentation to back this up? > > Check any recent text on business correspondence style. That wasn't the question. I don't have any recent text on business correspondence style, and I suspect you don't either. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 18: 7: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B989A37B9FE for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:07:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from phoenix (dial-74.ocis.net [209.52.173.206]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA27590 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:07:02 -0700 From: "Freddie Cash" To: Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:01:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Message-ID: <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost> In-reply-to: <006d01bfcc13$1b573c10$2969a0d0@leviathan> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > I'll certainly try to remember this in my future emails. > > > > I trust you already noticed that English doesn't share the French > > habit of putting a space before '?' and '!'? This may just be for Canadian French, but in my 13 years of study and use, I've never seen a space before a '?' or a '!' or any other punctuation mark. I do find it very annoying how they use '---' (em- dash) or '>>' marks instead of quotations marks in novels. As for the different `opening and closing' marks, what was the point to those?? I always found them to be very annoying and to break the flow of the type. ``just looks wrong'' > In honesty, I find myself wanting occasionally to insert such a space. > French does not include such a convention for the `.' ? ;-)) Freddie fcash@bigfoot.com ---------- I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure that you realise that what you heard is not what I meant. - Poster at my Baba's For my public PGP key, send e-mail with subject: PGP KEY REQUEST To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 18:11:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orion.ac.hmc.edu (Orion.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 429D737BA9F for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:11:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@orion.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by orion.ac.hmc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29935; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:11:33 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000601181133.A28687@orion.ac.hmc.edu> References: <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> <20000601141807.A40162@keltia.freenix.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> <20000602090744.Q20158@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: <20000602090744.Q20158@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 09:07:45AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 09:07:45AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 16:29:25 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > That convention dates back to the time of hand-set type and has, of late, > > been abandoned. One space is now not only acceptable but preferred in > > business correspondence. > > Do you have any documentation to back this up? I did some actual research and found it confusing. First, a definitive argument in favor of the double space is in the 3rd ed. or "The Writer's Reference" by Diana Hacker published in 1995. All example texts have two spaces. Second, a rather muddy FAQ from the Chicago Manual of Style. It is at http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq.html#8 and states: Q. This question relates to the number of spaces after a period ending a sentence. Monospaced "typewriter" style calls for two spaces; proportional spaced "typeset" calls for only one. Yet as we make a transition away from typewriters to proportional spacing on computers, is there a rule as to how many spaces you should put after a period ending a sentence? A. All our electronic manuscripts are prepared with a single space between sentences, since typesetting does not require the extra space, which is merely a typewriter convention. It all comes down to how you interpret "electronic manuscripts." If you interpret them as any text in electronic form then Brett is correct. I would be more inclined to believe that then mean, text in electronic form intended to be output via a typesetting system. Standard Internet e-mail is formatted with monospacing in mind and thus it would seem that it should adopt the typewrite convention. Argueably, mdoc and SGML documents should not because they are intended to be typeset not read directly. -- Brooks -- Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 18:12:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B86D637BAA6 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:12:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 12470 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2000 01:11:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 2 Jun 2000 01:11:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 9765 invoked by uid 211); 2 Jun 2000 01:11:58 -0000 Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 06:41:58 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: chip Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager Message-ID: <20000602064157.A9760@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: chip , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org>; from chip@wiegand.org on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 05:22:24PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.36 i686 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org chip said on Jun 1, 2000 at 17:22:24: > I just recently changed from using KDE to using XFCE and find it > quite nice, certainly much faster than the graphics heavy KDE. And it > will run the few KDE apps that I use without a problem. I am wondering > about others impressions and experience with XFCE? I have also used > Afterstep but think I might just stick with XFCE. Themes and other > fancy eye-candy don't mean much to me, just a clean interface where I > can get some work done, and TWM is a bit too sparton. I like XFCE too. But KDE apps will run on any window manager, even TWM, if you have the KDE and QT libs installed. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 19: 7:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6456837B566 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:07:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r34.bfm.org [216.127.220.130]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:08:30 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000601210710.008b76b0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 21:07:10 -0500 To: Greg Lehey , Brett Glass From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Cc: Ollivier Robert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000602090744.Q20158@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> <20000601141807.A40162@keltia.freenix.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:07 02-06-2000 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> That convention dates back to the time of hand-set type and has, of late, >> been abandoned. One space is now not only acceptable but preferred in >> business correspondence. > >Do you have any documentation to back this up? I have stayed out of this discussion (after all, I am not a native English speaker, and we certainly do not use two spaces in Slovak). I was quite surprised about the double spacing when I came to America. I do recall having read somewhere several years ago that, indeed, one space was preferred now. I do not remember where I read it (*maybe* Writer's Digest?), I just remember having read it, and being happy about it (since it allowed me to go back to the way I used to do back home). Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 20: 7:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12DF437BC1C for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:07:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.7/nospam) with UUCP id FAA04796 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 05:07:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 13CE187A8; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 02:29:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 02:29:54 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Message-ID: <20000602022954.A44300@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> <20000601141807.A40162@keltia.freenix.fr> <8h6k9a$6ke$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.11i In-Reply-To: <8h6k9a$6ke$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de>; from naddy@mips.inka.de on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 11:23:54PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Christian Weisgerber: > The block fill functions of some editors as well as fmt(1) give it > away, too. Xemacs seems to respect the two spaces fortunately. > I trust you already noticed that English doesn't share the French > habit of putting a space before '?' and '!'? Yes. Don't like it though :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 5.0-CURRENT #79: Sun May 28 01:27:10 CEST 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 20: 8:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from camel.ethereal.net (camel.ethereal.net [216.200.22.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC4E37BC1C for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:08:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@camel.ethereal.net) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by camel.ethereal.net (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) id e5238LH16793 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:08:21 -0700 From: Jan Koum To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: do you do windows... err... drugs? Message-ID: <20000601200821.E4476@ethereal.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD camel.ethereal.net 3.4-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE X-Unix-Uptime: 11:14AM up 24 days, 21:51, 28 users, load averages: 0.52, 0.60, 0.38 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/techenthusiast/geek/marykay.asp so how come i never see "FreeBSD got me off crack" articles??? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 20:42:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4977337B70B for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:42:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06917; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:41:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601202115.04a03780@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 21:41:51 -0600 To: Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) In-Reply-To: <44g0qxymne.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> References: <8h6s6s$9sb$1@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:03 PM 6/1/2000, Lowell Gilbert wrote: >Which part? The first sentence was certainly false: hand-set type in >English conventionally used spacing that was *between* one and two >spaces wide. Actually, manual typesetters used two "spaces." However, those spaces were not usually a full em wide. (An "em" is the width of the character "m" in the typeface being used. Most characters are narrower than this unless the font is monospaced. A sentence break was typically about 1.5 ems wide -- sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on how the font was designed. Newspapers were the first to abandon extra space between sentences because it could literally affect their bottom line. (The New York Times' motto is "All the news that's fit to print;" however, as any newspaper journalist knows, most papers -- including the Times -- tend to amend this to "All the news that fits.") If you look at any modern American newspaper, you'll see no more space before the cap at the start of a sentence than before any other capital letter. A good text on typing will (or should!) explain how the same convention propagated to business correspondence. In my high school typing class, we were required to practice both the one-space and two-space conventions on the theory that it would help a typist adapt to a corporation's required style. However, we were told that the "modern" method was to use single spaces between sentences for the sake of speed and simplicity. Temporary employment agencies such as Kelly, whose temps were graded according to the number of words they could type per minute, were strong advocates of the one-space convention during the 60's and 70's because it made their people more productive and hence more valuable. Corporations were quickly persuaded and adopted the same conventions. It was, likewise, temporary agencies that pushed for the adoption of business letter formats in which everything was left-justified. This made the creation of letters simpler and faster. It also made it easier to use typewriters such as the newfangled IBM Selectric. (The Selectric, which used a ball instead of individual hammers, couldn't jam; however, unlike earlier models, it didn't allow the typist to move the carriage by hand.) Tabs (and, hence, indented paragraphs) were also considered undesirable because different brands and models of typewriters had different methods of setting and clearing them. Some had "clear all tabs" keys; others didn't. Typists -- either from a typing pool or a temporary agency -- could migrate more easily from machine to machine if they didn't have to deal with the idiosyncrasies of different tab mechanisms. At 06:22 PM 6/1/2000, Troy Settle wrote: >Probably biting off much more than I can chew here, but do you honestly >expect Brett to have documentation? I'd imagine that his over-abundance >of opinion leaves little room for documented facts. My late father, who worked as an advertising production manager and design consultant, spent much of his life choosing fonts and faces for printed matter. My grandfather, an engraver, created fonts for the engraved signs and labels used on military equipment -- including the controls in airplane cockpits -- during WWII. (Needless to say, these had to be VERY readable.) My father's brother, who is still alive, still does advertising and production work. Other more distant relatives have done type design. In short, I come from a family of typesetters, printers, engravers, and type designers. I therefore know whereof I speak here. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 20:49:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB8A37BD47 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:49:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24508 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:50:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:50:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: do you do windows... err... drugs? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:49:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Muir To: Adam Subject: Re: do you do windows... err... drugs? (fwd) FreeBaSeD is not a recovering crack-addict friendly OS name :) On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Adam wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:08:21 -0700 > From: Jan Koum > To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: do you do windows... err... drugs? > > http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/techenthusiast/geek/marykay.asp > > so how come i never see "FreeBSD got me off crack" articles??? > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 20:50:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (pop3.pioneernet.net [208.240.196.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 435DD37BF01 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:50:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from chip.wiegand.org [208.194.173.26] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.00) id A0B33F670140; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:57:39 -0700 From: chip To: Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:49:32 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <20000602064157.A9760@physics.iisc.ernet.in> In-Reply-To: <20000602064157.A9760@physics.iisc.ernet.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00060120513800.01682@chip.wiegand.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 01 Jun 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > chip said on Jun 1, 2000 at 17:22:24: > > I just recently changed from using KDE to using XFCE and find it > > quite nice, certainly much faster than the graphics heavy KDE. And it > > will run the few KDE apps that I use without a problem. I am wondering > > about others impressions and experience with XFCE? I have also used > > Afterstep but think I might just stick with XFCE. Themes and other > > fancy eye-candy don't mean much to me, just a clean interface where I > > can get some work done, and TWM is a bit too sparton. > > I like XFCE too. But KDE apps will run on any window manager, even > TWM, if you have the KDE and QT libs installed. > > R. I wasn't aware of that. All the same though, I like the looks of XFCE much better. It looks like the CDE on the Solaris boxes that are used in the sonar equipment that my company makes. It's a neat, clean look. Not real busy and cluttered. -- Chip Wiegand ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ visit Alternative Operating Systems www.wiegand.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 20:51:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E0C9837BD47 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:51:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 43775 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2000 03:51:09 -0000 Received: from outpost5.inspire.net.nz (HELO outpost.co.nz) (203.96.157.29) by outpost2.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 2 Jun 2000 03:51:09 -0000 Message-ID: <39372B8E.44173C8@outpost.co.nz> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:35:42 +1200 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jan Koum , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: do you do windows... err... drugs? References: <20000601200821.E4476@ethereal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jan Koum wrote: > http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/techenthusiast/geek/marykay.asp > > so how come i never see "FreeBSD got me off crack" articles??? Actually, I preferred the para in the adjacent frame: How geeky are you? Tell us about all the cool ways you are using Windows 2000 in your spare time. Submit your story and if we like it, we'll make you a Geek of the Week. You'll be the subject of an interview for an article much like this one, and we'll put your photo on the site. But wait, there's more—you'll also get a limited-edition Geek of the Week T-shirt. Just cries out for storys on "How I used Windows 2000 to sight my three-ought-six" or "Coaster Deluxe: Beverage Stain Resistance of Windows 2000 CDROMs". -- C. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 20:54:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6915437BD47 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:54:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lowell@world.std.com) Received: from world.std.com (root@world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]) by europe.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA04595 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:52:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from lowell@localhost) by world.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA23449; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:38:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:38:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200006020038.UAA23449@world.std.com> From: Lowell Gilbert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <20000602095356.E22978@wantadilla.lemis.com> (message from Greg Lehey on Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:53:56 +0930) Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) References: <8h6s6s$9sb$1@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw> <44g0qxymne.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> <20000602095356.E22978@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:53:56 +0930 From: Greg Lehey > The first sentence was certainly false: hand-set type in English > conventionally used spacing that was *between* one and two spaces > wide. I don't see that machine-set type should be any different. In typesetting we're always talking about variable width spacing, and the only real issue is the relationship between interword and intersentence spacing. It seems that in England this relationship has been growing over the years. Sorry; I thought we were still (kinda-sorta) talking about fortune(6) databases. I was claiming that business correspondence was irrelevant to that. I'm not actually disagreeing with you (Greg)... > I'd question the second one, too, on the basis that most business > correspondence is now done with methods that attempt to imitate that > particular hand-type convention. 1½ spaces? Close enough... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 21: 9:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB0E237BDD0 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:09:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA25025; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 13:36:08 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 13:36:08 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jan Koum Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: do you do windows... err... drugs? Message-ID: <20000602133608.J22978@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20000601200821.E4476@ethereal.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000601200821.E4476@ethereal.net> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 20:08:21 -0700, Jan Koum wrote: > http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/techenthusiast/geek/marykay.asp > > so how come i never see "FreeBSD got me off crack" articles??? Judging by some of the commits I've seen lately, I'm not sure it does. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 21:13:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 152DA37BE0A for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:13:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bitsurfr@enteract.com) Received: from bugsbunny (router.bitsurfr.soho.enteract.com [216.80.48.54]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA24918; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:12:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from bitsurfr@enteract.com) From: "Chris Silva" To: "Greg Lehey" , "Jan Koum" Cc: Subject: RE: do you do windows... err... drugs? Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:09:38 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20000602133608.J22978@wantadilla.lemis.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oh my.... That don't sound like a good thing. #-----Original Message----- #From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG #[mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Greg Lehey #Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 11:06 PM #To: Jan Koum #Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG #Subject: Re: do you do windows... err... drugs? # # #On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 20:08:21 -0700, Jan Koum wrote: #> http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/techenthusiast/geek/marykay.asp #> #> so how come i never see "FreeBSD got me off crack" articles??? # #Judging by some of the commits I've seen lately, I'm not sure it does. # #Greg #-- #Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key #See complete headers for address and phone numbers # # #To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org #with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message # To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 21:37:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DEC9337B53E for ; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:37:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 9388 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2000 04:37:04 -0000 Received: from du17.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.17) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 2 Jun 2000 04:37:04 -0000 Message-ID: <393739CF.2115B00C@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 00:36:31 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE References: <200006012335.QAA00649@usr07.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > I think the important thing is not to create false expectations (of ease > > and simplicity) in the minds of those who have never been exposed to a > > real operating system. > > I think the import thing is to create TRUE expectations of > ease of use and simplicity in the minds of those who have > never been exposed to FreeBSD. > > Of course that means changing the code to have those as > attributes. But can that be done without radically changing the nature of the OS? Home users and small businesses have been accustomed to a single-user OS. Multi-user OSes are necessarily more complex and (in some ways) more limiting than single-user OSes. People are not prepared for, and may not put up with, these complexities and limitations. For example, people will say: "What do you mean I have to login? I didn't have to do that with Windows." or "What do you mean I can't undelete a file? I could do that with Windows." This is not to say that FreeBSD can't be made simpler, but there is a limit, and that limit is more complex than Windows. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 1 21:52:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2C4C37B746; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:52:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA92280; Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:52:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:52:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Jan Koum Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: do you do windows... err... drugs? In-Reply-To: <20000601200821.E4476@ethereal.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Jan Koum wrote: > http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/techenthusiast/geek/marykay.asp > > so how come i never see "FreeBSD got me off crack" articles??? Don't you see? It's classic transferrence behaviour - they've given up taking drugs themselves only to replace them with an OS which is itself on crack. It's crack-smoking by proxy. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 1:49:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A86637B523 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 01:49:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA59322; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:49:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: "Troy Settle" Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Jennifer M. Dodd" , Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Jun 2000 10:49:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Troy Settle"'s message of "Tue, 30 May 2000 13:47:37 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Troy Settle" writes: > If people are going to start tossing out ideas... > > President Chuck (if Bill Clinton can do it, why not Chuck?) > Pope Chuck the First (to bless our work) > General Chuck (leading the BSD troops into battle) > Tux-Chuck (Chuck in a tuxedo? What will the linux crowd think?) For the umpteenth (but probably not last) time, his name is not Chuck! DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 1:55:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EACFE37B8B9 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 01:55:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA59343; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:55:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: fcash@bigfoot.com Cc: Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions References: <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Jun 2000 10:55:37 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Freddie Cash"'s message of "Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:01:40 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 25 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Freddie Cash" writes: > > > > I'll certainly try to remember this in my future emails. > > > I trust you already noticed that English doesn't share the French > > > habit of putting a space before '?' and '!'? > This may just be for Canadian French, but in my 13 years of study and > use, I've never seen a space before a '?' or a '!' or any other > punctuation mark. French typography rules require a narrow space in front of question and exclamation marks as well as colon and semi-colon, at least when using proportional-width fonts. I don't know if the same rule applies to monospace fonts. > I do find it very annoying how they use '---' (em- > dash) or '>>' marks instead of quotations marks in novels. > > As for the different `opening and closing' marks, what was the point to > those?? I always found them to be very annoying and to break the flow of > the type. ``just looks wrong'' They wouldn't if you'd grown up with them. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 1:59:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F412437B51F; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 01:59:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA25621; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 01:59:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 01:59:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Troy Settle , "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Jennifer M. Dodd" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2 Jun 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Tux-Chuck (Chuck in a tuxedo? What will the linux crowd think?) > > For the umpteenth (but probably not last) time, his name is not Chuck! I do think a beastie in a tuxedo would be a cool mascot for FreeBSD's Linux mode :-) Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 3:28:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moutvdom00.kundenserver.de (moutvdom00.kundenserver.de [195.20.224.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2C737B529 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 03:28:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from list@rachinsky.de) Received: from [195.20.224.208] (helo=mrvdom01.kundenserver.de) by moutvdom00.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12xogi-0008Kp-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:28:24 +0200 Received: from [213.20.157.13] (helo=gottt) by mrvdom01.kundenserver.de with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12xogd-000352-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:28:19 +0200 Message-ID: <010301bfcc7d$65d80f20$0d9d14d5@gottt> From: "Nicolas" To: References: <200006012335.QAA00649@usr07.primenet.com> <393739CF.2115B00C@mail.ptd.net> Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:27:39 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Albert Einstein: "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 4:47: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durango.picus.com (durango.picus.com [209.100.20.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B8C437BA23 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 04:47:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from troy@picus.com) Received: from abyss [209.100.22.250] by durango.picus.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id AE5C60150; Fri, 02 Jun 2000 07:45:32 -0400 From: "Troy Settle" To: Subject: RE: FreeBSD for t-shirts Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 07:46:26 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That's the only name I've ever heard. But please... I would like to know what his real name is. -- Troy Settle Network Analyst Picus Communications 540.633.6327 ** -----Original Message----- ** From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav [mailto:des@flood.ping.uio.no] ** Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 4:49 AM ** To: Troy Settle ** Cc: G. Adam Stanislav; Jennifer M. Dodd; chat@FreeBSD.ORG ** Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts ** ** ** "Troy Settle" writes: ** > If people are going to start tossing out ideas... ** > ** > President Chuck (if Bill Clinton can do it, why not Chuck?) ** > Pope Chuck the First (to bless our work) ** > General Chuck (leading the BSD troops into battle) ** > Tux-Chuck (Chuck in a tuxedo? What will the linux crowd think?) ** ** For the umpteenth (but probably not last) time, his name is not Chuck! ** ** DES ** -- ** Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 4:57:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B117437B69E for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 04:57:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA59874; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 13:57:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: "Troy Settle" Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Jun 2000 13:57:30 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Troy Settle"'s message of "Fri, 2 Jun 2000 07:46:26 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Troy Settle" writes: > That's the only name I've ever heard. > > But please... I would like to know what his real name is. None. M. Kirk McKusick. who holds the copyright to the BSD daemon image, is strongly opposed to the idea that it has a name, or even a gender. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 5: 0: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from firehouse.net (rdu25-28-186.nc.rr.com [24.25.28.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9F79D37BB59 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 05:00:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abc@firehouse.net) Received: (qmail 24190 invoked by uid 1000); 2 Jun 2000 12:00:03 -0000 Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:00:02 -0400 From: Alan Clegg To: FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org Cc: humor@mailinglists.org Subject: Re: do you do windows... err... drugs? Message-ID: <20000602080002.A22351@ecto.greenpeas.org> References: <20000601200821.E4476@ethereal.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000601200821.E4476@ethereal.net>; from jkb@ethereal.net on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 08:08:21PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Out of the ether, Jan Koum spewed forth the following bitstream: > http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/techenthusiast/geek/marykay.asp > > so how come i never see "FreeBSD got me off crack" articles??? The funniest part of the article was this quote, however, concerning an upgrade from Windows 98 to Windows 2000: ] The group found that some of the hardware and software on Mary ] Kay's PC was incompatible with Windows 2000 Professional. Some ] software would have to be uninstalled, and then reinstalled after the ] operating system. They also found that there were issues with the ] 56K Fax Modem, a SCSI controller, the Virus Shield (McAfee), the ] keyboard manager, and the software application that runs the ] scanner (PaperPort), and Microsoft Outlook 2000. The geek kids ] resolved these issues with little coaching from Mary Kay. Software (un-named) which needed to be uninstalled and reinstalled. Has *ANYONE* ever gotten software to cleanly uninstall under Windows? This may have been the reason that they needed to do the upgrade... having attempted to uninstall an application, Windows 98 was now unstable and needed an upgrade. Problems with: Modem, SCSI Controller, Keyboard controller (software?) What might be more important parts of your system than your drive controller and keyboard? I'd guess that the Modem was a WinModem and thus incompatible with the new version of windows. Failure with Microsoft Outlook 2000 and PaperPort. No comment. There are several other flagrantly humorous items in the article, but I'll leave them for the astute reader. AlanC -- \ Alan B. Clegg Just because I can \ abc@firehouse.net does not mean I will. \ \ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 5:16:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAE4937B53D for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 05:16:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (p3E9C1148.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.156.17.72]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17479; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:14:36 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA97AC30; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:14:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 30E9414A9B; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:13:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:13:52 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Troy Settle , "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Jennifer M. Dodd" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts Message-ID: <20000602141352.B3124@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Troy Settle , "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Jennifer M. Dodd" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 10:49:10AM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Dag-Erling Smorgrav (des@flood.ping.uio.no): > For the umpteenth (but probably not last) time, his name is not Chuck! But? Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 5:43:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.102.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BB1337B95F for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 05:43:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA75874; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 05:43:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 02:43:00 -1000 From: Matthew Hunt To: Alexander Langer Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Troy Settle , "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Jennifer M. Dodd" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts Message-ID: <20000602024259.A71669@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <20000602141352.B3124@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000602141352.B3124@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from alex@big.endian.de on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 02:13:52PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 02:13:52PM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > > For the umpteenth (but probably not last) time, his name is not Chuck! > > But? But what? The other day, I saw a squirrel. His name was not Chuck. -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 5:50:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFF7437BEDC for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 05:49:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (p3E9C1148.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [62.156.17.72]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26535; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:50:11 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53998AC30; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:50:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1EC2B14A9B; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:49:46 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:49:46 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Matthew Hunt Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Troy Settle , "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Jennifer M. Dodd" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts Message-ID: <20000602144946.A3927@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Matthew Hunt , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Troy Settle , "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Jennifer M. Dodd" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000602141352.B3124@cichlids.cichlids.com> <20000602024259.A71669@wopr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000602024259.A71669@wopr.caltech.edu>; from mph@astro.caltech.edu on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 02:43:00AM -1000 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Matthew Hunt (mph@astro.caltech.edu): > > > For the umpteenth (but probably not last) time, his name is not Chuck! > > But? > But what? > The other day, I saw a squirrel. His name was not Chuck. I've heard now he has neither a gender nor a name. Though we all know that Chuckie is male. Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 5:58:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42A7C37B55A for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 05:58:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA60091; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:58:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Microsoft to move to British Columbia? From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Jun 2000 14:58:53 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 7 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gives a whole new meaning to the South Park song "Blame Canada". DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 6:24:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0830637BBFF for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 06:24:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh0.bfm.org [216.127.220.193]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:25:45 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000602082423.0091f100@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 08:24:23 -0500 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Troy Settle" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts Cc: In-Reply-To: References: <"Troy Settle"'s message of "Fri, 2 Jun 2000 07:46:26 -0400"> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 13:57 02-06-2000 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >None. M. Kirk McKusick. who holds the copyright to the BSD daemon >image, is strongly opposed to the idea that it has a name, or even a >gender. But we did not use Chuck as his/her/its *name*! Just as a macro. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 6:54:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2726637BF17 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 06:54:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 3495C755B; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 06:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E201D89; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 06:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 06:56:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601202115.04a03780@localhost> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, Brett Glass wrote: :My late father, who worked as an advertising production manager and :design consultant, spent much of his life choosing fonts and faces for :printed matter. My grandfather, an engraver, created fonts for the :engraved signs and labels used on military equipment -- including :the controls in airplane cockpits -- during WWII. (Needless to say, :these had to be VERY readable.) My father's brother, who is still :alive, still does advertising and production work. Other more :distant relatives have done type design. In short, I come from a family :of typesetters, printers, engravers, and type designers. I therefore know :whereof I speak here. Yes, but have you personally ever handset type for a letter press? I miss my grandfather's Heidelberg. Beautiful machine. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 7:23:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sintec.sintec.ro (sintec.sintec.ro [193.226.125.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A61E737B7A1 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 07:23:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from KoronkaS@interscope.ro) Received: from uranus.interscope.ro (b_telemach.sintec.ro [193.226.125.34]) by sintec.sintec.ro (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23069; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:34:35 +0300 Received: by URANUS with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:20:17 +0300 Message-ID: From: Stefan KORONKA To: "'Thomas M. Sommers'" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:20:15 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This is not to say that FreeBSD can't be > made simpler, but there is a limit, and that limit is more > complex than > Windows. As a programmer who wrote (argh!) several applications for windoze, from standard api stuff to com servers, i can't say that windows is simple .. In fact, I find it more complex than unix. My personal opinion is that: for windoz, if something can be made harder, it will be. Opposed to: in unix, if something can be solved simple, then it is .. Of course, for regular user, windoze can be a very friendly (?), easy-to-start environment. But under this inflexible simplicity, it is hiding a very huge mess. But this is just my opinion ... Stefan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 8:44: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A09437B76F for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:43:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keichii@iteration.net) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8FD3864C21; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:43:57 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:43:57 -0500 From: "Michael C. Wu" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000602104357.A17923@peorth.iteration.net> Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C. Wu" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> <20000601141807.A40162@keltia.freenix.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> <20000602090744.Q20158@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3.0.6.32.20000601210710.008b76b0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000601210710.008b76b0@mail85.pair.com>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 09:07:10PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 09:07:10PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav scribbled: | At 09:07 02-06-2000 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: | >> That convention dates back to the time of hand-set type and has, of late, | >> been abandoned. One space is now not only acceptable but preferred in | >> business correspondence. | > | >Do you have any documentation to back this up? | | I have stayed out of this discussion (after all, I am not a native English | speaker, and we certainly do not use two spaces in Slovak). | | I was quite surprised about the double spacing when I came to America. I do | recall having read somewhere several years ago that, indeed, one space was | preferred now. I do not remember where I read it (*maybe* Writer's | Digest?), I just remember having read it, and being happy about it (since | it allowed me to go back to the way I used to do back home). Singapore and Hong Kong follows British conventions. Taiwan, Japan, and the Philippines follows American conventions. China does its own thing. I have correspondence from all of the above countries and they all use 2 space before the period. Our teachers stressed 2 spaces to death when I learned English. (At various stages of my life, I learned English from many different nationals when i switched schools. Singapore -> Philippines -> British -> Australia -> Canadia -> South Africa -> United States) None of the above mentioned teachers ever told me that "one space before the period" was acceptable and stressed two spaces. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net - Yes, this is a conspiracy. | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 8:52:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E46C37BA14 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:52:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh20.bfm.org [216.127.220.213]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:53:18 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000602105141.008acbd0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:51:41 -0500 To: chat@freebsd.org From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: MS poll Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just found this site , which contains a poll on whether Microsoft should be split. Here are the current results: Yes, it will help the computer industry: 12.3% Yes, because Microsoft is evil: 25.1% No, they shouldn't be split: 14.5% No, it doesn't solve anything: 42.4% I don't care about that: 5.8% Total votes: 1404 Quite frankly, I'm surprised that the majority (56.9%) voted no. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 8:54:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1053537B8D4 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:54:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from leviathan (gh.ws.linkfast.net [208.160.105.41]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A59739B09; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:54:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00a101bfccaa$d2da4610$2969a0d0@leviathan> From: "gh" To: "Stefan KORONKA" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:54:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > This is not to say that FreeBSD can't be > > made simpler, but there is a limit, and that limit is more > > complex than > > Windows. > > As a programmer who wrote (argh!) several applications for > windoze, from standard api stuff to com servers, i can't say > that windows is simple .. In fact, I find it more complex > than unix. My personal opinion is that: for windoz, if something > can be made harder, it will be. Opposed to: in unix, if something > can be solved simple, then it is .. > > Of course, for regular user, windoze can be a very friendly (?), > easy-to-start environment. But under this inflexible simplicity, > it is hiding a very huge mess. > I have always felt and understood that. For Windows to be user-friendly it must by design be far more complicated and complex than something that is simple (--enough), that works, that is well designed, well planned (organized, et cetera), and based on a clear, clean frame (ie: UNIX). I have *never* had two installs of Windows 2000, on the exact same box, same hardware, same copy of Windows, end the same. Occasionally, the options in the installation even change. What is worse than that (I suppose) is the hideous beast that is the morphing menu implementation. Damn thing bothers me quite a bit (ie: ``My computer is *alive*!''). This just shows, quite clearly, that the code behind Windows 2000 is *far, far, far, far, far* more complex and (more accurately) more complicated than that for FreeBSD ever would be allowed to become. Dan blah. Dan > But this is just my opinion ... > Stefan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 8:56:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5BD8137B8F7 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:56:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 15134 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2000 15:55:55 -0000 Received: from theory6.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.126) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 2 Jun 2000 15:55:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 8031 invoked by uid 211); 2 Jun 2000 15:55:54 -0000 Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 21:25:54 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MS poll Message-ID: <20000602212553.E7849@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <3.0.6.32.20000602105141.008acbd0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000602105141.008acbd0@mail85.pair.com>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 10:51:41AM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.15pre4 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav said on Jun 2, 2000 at 10:51:41: > Just found this site , which contains a poll on > whether Microsoft should be split. Here are the current results: > > Yes, it will help the computer industry: 12.3% > Yes, because Microsoft is evil: 25.1% > No, they shouldn't be split: 14.5% > No, it doesn't solve anything: 42.4% > I don't care about that: 5.8% > Total votes: 1404 > > Quite frankly, I'm surprised that the majority (56.9%) voted no. I seem to remember reading that a much greater majority of the American public thinks Microsoft is doing a great job and shouldn't be split. But that was some time back, pre-Iloveyou. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 9:49:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2636E37B76F for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:49:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12925; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:49:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000602104810.04a362f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:49:19 -0600 To: Jamie Bowden From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601202115.04a03780@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:56 AM 6/2/2000, Jamie Bowden wrote: >Yes, but have you personally ever handset type for a letter press? Once or twice as a child. It brings back memories. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 10: 4: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta01-svc.server.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B11B037B529 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:03:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.89.70]) by mta01-svc.server.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000602170355.EZXD381.mta01-svc.server.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:03:55 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA00828; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:03:50 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:03:49 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Ollivier Robert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Message-ID: <20000602180349.A232@parish> References: <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> <20000601141807.A40162@keltia.freenix.fr> <8h6k9a$6ke$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> <20000602022954.A44300@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000602022954.A44300@keltia.freenix.fr>; from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 02:29:54AM +0200 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 02:29:54AM +0200, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Christian Weisgerber: > > The block fill functions of some editors as well as fmt(1) give it > > away, too. > > Xemacs seems to respect the two spaces fortunately. > Unless you add this to ~/.emacs: ;;Fill paragraphs with a single space after each full stop (setq sentence-end "[.?!][]\"')}]*\\($\\|[ \t]\\)[ \t\n]*") (setq sentence-end-double-space nil) > > I trust you already noticed that English doesn't share the French > > habit of putting a space before '?' and '!'? > > Yes. Don't like it though :-) > -- > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 5.0-CURRENT #79: Sun May 28 01:27:10 CEST 2000 > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 10: 6:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta01-svc.server.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B85E37B676 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:06:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.89.70]) by mta01-svc.server.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000602170624.FADY381.mta01-svc.server.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:06:24 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA00843; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:06:19 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:06:19 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Freddie Cash Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Message-ID: <20000602180619.B232@parish> References: <006d01bfcc13$1b573c10$2969a0d0@leviathan> <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost>; from fcash@bigfoot.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:01:40PM -0700 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:01:40PM -0700, Freddie Cash wrote: > > > > I'll certainly try to remember this in my future emails. > > > > > > I trust you already noticed that English doesn't share the French > > > habit of putting a space before '?' and '!'? > > This may just be for Canadian French, but in my 13 years of study and > use, I've never seen a space before a '?' or a '!' or any other > punctuation mark. I do find it very annoying how they use '---' (em- > dash) or '>>' marks instead of quotations marks in novels. > Maybe they find quote marks annoying in our novels. > As for the different `opening and closing' marks, what was the point to > those?? I always found them to be very annoying and to break the flow of > the type. ``just looks wrong'' > > > In honesty, I find myself wanting occasionally to insert such a space. > > French does not include such a convention for the `.' ? ;-)) > > Freddie > fcash@bigfoot.com > > ---------- > I know that you believe you understand what you think > I said, but I am not sure that you realise that what > you heard is not what I meant. > - Poster at my Baba's > > For my public PGP key, send e-mail with subject: > PGP KEY REQUEST > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 10:10: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta01-svc.server.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFD2A37B96A for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:10:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.89.70]) by mta01-svc.server.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000602171003.FARQ381.mta01-svc.server.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:10:03 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA00860; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:09:58 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:09:58 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft to move to British Columbia? Message-ID: <20000602180958.C232@parish> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 02:58:53PM +0200 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 02:58:53PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > Gives a whole new meaning to the South Park song "Blame Canada". > It would allow the US govt. to impose a major punishment on M$ though. Just reverse the "can't export cryptography because it's munitions" argument to "can't import Windows because it's munitions - it nukes PCs" (wouldn't help the rest of the world though :( ) > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 10:42:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0A6E37BAB5 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:42:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13526; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:40:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000602113424.04a2caf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:40:37 -0600 To: Mark Ovens , Freddie Cash From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000602180619.B232@parish> References: <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost> <006d01bfcc13$1b573c10$2969a0d0@leviathan> <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:06 AM 6/2/2000, Mark Ovens wrote: >Maybe they find quote marks annoying in our novels. To me, the most annoying misuse of quotes in English is for emphasis. Italics, boldface, or all caps are less confusing. My guess is that this misuse arises because one sometimes sees quotes used as an editorial device to express sarcasm or incredulity at the use of a word or term. (An equivalent "quotes" gesture is often used in face-to-face conversation.) But apparently, some folks who don't get the sarcasm mistake both the typographical convention and the gesture as signifying emphasis. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 10:42:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from enterprise.sd73.bc.ca (enterprise.sd73.bc.ca [207.23.161.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3142F37BAC2 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:42:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from fcash ([207.23.161.210]) by enterprise.sd73.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08249; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:46:01 -0700 From: "Freddie Cash" To: Mark Ovens , chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:37:54 -0700 Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Message-ID: <39378E82.9402.87CF82@localhost> In-reply-to: <20000602180619.B232@parish> References: <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost>; from fcash@bigfoot.com on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:01:40PM -0700 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > This may just be for Canadian French, but in my 13 years of study > > and use, I've never seen a space before a '?' or a '!' or any other > > punctuation mark. I do find it very annoying how they use '---' > > (em- dash) or '>>' marks instead of quotations marks in novels. > Maybe they find quote marks annoying in our novels. That very well may be. :-) The joys (and pains) of international differences. Freddie Software Support Co-op School District 73 fcash@sd73.bc.ca To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 10:56:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp09.phx.gblx.net (smtp09.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E8C337BA38 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:56:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp09.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAB63756; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:56:12 -0700 Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp09.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdOVSeMa; Fri Jun 2 10:56:06 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA23308; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:56:04 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006021756.KAA23308@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: To: crli@crli.com (Joe Walsh) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:56:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Joe Walsh" at Jun 01, 2000 01:15:11 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > When I was doing freelance writing, my editor required that all > electronic manuscripts be submitted with 1 space following each > sentence, rather than 2. I believe the typographical layout > software (such as Quark) then figures out how much actual space > to put after the punctuation based on the needs of the line as > it will be printed. I seem to recall that troff source does not look like the final typeset output either... amazingly, neither does Postscript. It seems to me that, like Grafitti on the Palm Pilot, this is just a case of adapting the human to the deficiencies in the software, rather than the other way around. In other words, you weren't sending your editor text, you were sending your editor "source code". Kind of like FreeBSD's rc file arrangement, or installation procedures, compared to, say, Windows (which is itself less than cognizant of humans, but at least it's more cognizant than FreeBSD seems to be. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 10:58:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A37D137BA09 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:58:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA05354; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:58:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAHea4zk; Fri Jun 2 10:58:22 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA23399; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:58:37 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006021758.KAA23399@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:58:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Jun 01, 2000 04:29:25 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Speaking as a non native english speaker, I must say that I learned in the > >FreeBSD mailing-lists that two spaces were required at the end of a > >sentence... > > That convention dates back to the time of hand-set type and has, of late, > been abandoned. One space is now not only acceptable but preferred in > business correspondence. Please cite an English textbook on this, rather than some stupid MBA book, and I'll refrain from citing MBA books on how code should be written. Thanks, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 11: 7:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F308337B9D3 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:07:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA25735; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:07:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAARyaq6X; Fri Jun 2 11:07:00 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA23701; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:07:14 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006021807.LAA23701@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions To: fcash@bigfoot.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:07:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost> from "Freddie Cash" at Jun 01, 2000 06:01:40 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This may just be for Canadian French, but in my 13 years of study and > use, I've never seen a space before a '?' or a '!' or any other > punctuation mark. I do find it very annoying how they use '---' (em- > dash) or '>>' marks instead of quotations marks in novels. > > As for the different `opening and closing' marks, what was the point to > those?? I always found them to be very annoying and to break the flow of > the type. ``just looks wrong'' '<<' and '>>' are left and right guillemot. They differ from quotation marks in their usage, in that one is usually used to indicate text included from another source, and the other conversation between characters in narrative text (i.e. one quotes a source, the other the author). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 11:15:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from enterprise.sd73.bc.ca (enterprise.sd73.bc.ca [207.23.161.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B517937BACA for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:15:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fcash@sd73.bc.ca) Received: from fcash ([207.23.161.210]) by enterprise.sd73.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08977 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:20:06 -0700 From: "Freddie Cash" Organization: School District #73 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:11:59 -0700 Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Reply-To: fcash@sd73.bc.ca Message-ID: <3937967F.17328.A70476@localhost> In-reply-to: <4.3.2.7.2.20000602113424.04a2caf0@localhost> References: <20000602180619.B232@parish> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Maybe they find quote marks annoying in our novels. > To me, the most annoying misuse of quotes in English is for emphasis. > Italics, boldface, or all caps are less confusing. I prefer to use single quotes to show emphasis, although I find that placing an asterisk around the word works best in e-mail. Of course, it all depends on the level of emphasis one is going for. The joys of standards, that are anything but standard anymore. :-) > My guess is that this misuse arises because one sometimes sees > quotes used as an editorial device to express sarcasm or > incredulity at the use of a word or term. (An equivalent > "quotes" gesture is often used in face-to-face conversation.) > But apparently, some folks who don't get the sarcasm mistake > both the typographical convention and the gesture as signifying > emphasis. Ugh! I can't stand it when people use the curled-fingers "" to show sarcasm. Unless they are very young, it makes them look very silly. :-) Just emphasize / sarcastify your comment using tone/expression. Freddie Software Support Co-op School District 73 fcash@sd73.bc.ca To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 11:21:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp09.phx.gblx.net (smtp09.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB95937BAD5 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:21:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp09.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA19640; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:21:51 -0700 Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp09.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdrmtlqa; Fri Jun 2 11:21:41 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA24190; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:21:39 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006021821.LAA24190@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: do you do windows... err... drugs? To: jkb@ethereal.net (Jan Koum) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:21:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000601200821.E4476@ethereal.net> from "Jan Koum" at Jun 01, 2000 08:08:21 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/techenthusiast/geek/marykay.asp > > so how come i never see "FreeBSD got me off crack" articles??? You misunderstood this article. It was saying that heroin and crack are "gateway drugs" for the harder stuff... such Windows 2000. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 11:29:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2DDA37BC0D for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:29:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA27642; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 20:27:56 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 20:27:56 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Mark Ovens Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft to move to British Columbia? In-Reply-To: <20000602180958.C232@parish> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 02:58:53PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > > > > Gives a whole new meaning to the South Park song "Blame Canada". > > > > It would allow the US govt. to impose a major punishment on M$ though. > Just reverse the "can't export cryptography because it's munitions" > argument to "can't import Windows because it's munitions - it nukes > PCs" (wouldn't help the rest of the world though :( ) > It would too. At least if you live somewhere where most politicians can do nothing but copycat without giving really any consideration to much anything. > > DES > > -- > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > -- > ...and on the eighth day God created UNIX > ________________________________________________________________ > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ > mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 11:42:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B53C637B709 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:42:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA10207; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:42:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAGpaiXt; Fri Jun 2 11:42:08 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA24897; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:42:16 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006021842.LAA24897@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE To: tms2@mail.ptd.net (Thomas M. Sommers) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:42:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <393739CF.2115B00C@mail.ptd.net> from "Thomas M. Sommers" at Jun 02, 2000 12:36:31 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > I think the important thing is not to create false expectations (of ease > > > and simplicity) in the minds of those who have never been exposed to a > > > real operating system. > > > > I think the important thing is to create TRUE expectations of > > ease of use and simplicity in the minds of those who have > > never been exposed to FreeBSD. > > > > Of course that means changing the code to have those as > > attributes. > > But can that be done without radically changing the nature of the OS? Who cares? The point is to have the most effective human-computer interaction (HCI) possible. Only part of this is having the system stay up, for which FreeBSD has a better track record than Windows, so far. > Home users and small businesses have been accustomed to a > single-user OS. Multi-user OSes are necessarily more complex > and (in some ways) more limiting than single-user OSes. This is an implementation detail, and it is based on a false premise: that what people are currently accustomed to is what an average human, with no prior experience, would expect the system to behave. This premise has led to a hell of a lot of bad design. See the "Interface Hall of Shame" at: http://www.iarchitect.com/shame/htm for good examples of people trying to make software running on computers resemble everyday objects (e.g. a representation of a "thumb-wheel" on a graphical representation of a device, with no physical thumb-control mapped to the representation). > People are not prepared for, and may not put up with, these > complexities and limitations. Most of these complexities are artifacts of substantial design flaws, which should be corrected, instead of glossed over as "that's the way it works; it's better, trust me". > For example, people will say: "What do you mean I have to login? > I didn't have to do that with Windows." Windows 3.1, perhaps. Probably it should be called "unlocking", not "logging in". Certainly, it should be possible to turn on a FreeBSD box and just get a graphical desktop or shell prompt with a particular users credentials as an active default. It's the user's choice, not the OS designers. The "login problem" is trivial to overcome. > or "What do you mean I can't undelete a file? I could do that > with Windows." Well, the inability to undo an "oops" is a moronic point about FreeBSD. Humans have accidents; you must accomodate this fact about humans, rather than trying to suppress it. You must design systems which tolerate faults. Why is is that people are all happy about hardware fault tolerance, but steadfastly deny the need for operator fault tolerance? Are humans somehow more predictable than solid state physics? > This is not to say that FreeBSD can't be made simpler, but > there is a limit, and that limit is more complex than Windows. I think you are confusing the complexity of the system with the complexity of abstraction presented to the operator of the system. A system of differing blocks which can be arranged to completely fill a box can require very complex ordering constraints to be able to completely fill the box. But once closed, all you see is a three dimensional cube. How complex is that presentation of the interior complexity of the system? Almost everyone can relate to a simple cube. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 11:55:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EA1C37B709 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:55:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA15606; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:55:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAARNaWtE; Fri Jun 2 11:55:09 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA25317; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:55:14 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006021855.LAA25317@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) To: brooks@one-eyed-alien.net (Brooks Davis) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:55:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000601181133.A28687@orion.ac.hmc.edu> from "Brooks Davis" at Jun 01, 2000 06:11:33 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Second, a rather muddy FAQ from the Chicago Manual of Style. It is at > http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq.html#8 and states: ... > A. All our electronic manuscripts are prepared with a single space > between sentences, since typesetting does not require the extra space, > which is merely a typewriter convention. Electronic manuscripts are intended to be read by electronics, not humans, or we would just call them "manuscripts". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 12:30:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13DC437BFF5 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:30:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@mips.inka.de) Received: from bigeye.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 12xx9Y-0002Vr-02; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 21:30:44 +0200 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.mips.inka.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA52403 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 20:12:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Date: 2 Jun 2000 20:12:56 +0200 Message-ID: <8h8tf8$1j5a$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> <20000602090744.Q20158@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20000601181133.A28687@orion.ac.hmc.edu> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brooks Davis wrote: > Standard Internet e-mail is formatted with monospacing in mind > and thus it would seem that it should adopt the typewrite > convention. Argueably, mdoc and SGML documents should not because > they are intended to be typeset not read directly. mdoc (troff in general?) seems to have the particular convention that the end of a sentence should also be the end of an input line. Some internal typesetting magic will then produce the correct spacing. For nroff on FreeBSD that is two spaces. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a knob equivalent to TeX's \frenchspacing to change this. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 12:31: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E38237BFF1 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:30:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@mips.inka.de) Received: from bigeye.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 12xx9Y-0002Vr-01; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 21:30:44 +0200 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.mips.inka.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA52088 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 20:00:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Date: 2 Jun 2000 20:00:20 +0200 Message-ID: <8h8snk$1irg$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> References: <006d01bfcc13$1b573c10$2969a0d0@leviathan> <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Freddie Cash wrote: > This may just be for Canadian French, but in my 13 years of study and > use, I've never seen a space before a '?' or a '!' or any other > punctuation mark. Randomly picking three (European) French books from the shelf, I see a space being used before '?' and '!' in two of them. You can also observe the practice over in the fr.* groups or quite often in English articles posted by French speakers. > As for the different `opening and closing' marks, what was the point to > those?? I always found them to be very annoying and to break the flow of > the type. ``just looks wrong'' Excuse me, but what's the point of the American quotation marks? Why are *they* different? And who introduced the bizarre concept of repeating the opening marks at every new paragraph? Just looks wrong. More to the point, if you expand your horizon a bit, you'll learn that every language (or even major national variation) has its own typographic conventions. Asking about their point and declaring the ones you happen to be used to as the right way is profoundly silly. American English quotating marks are ``text'', the British seem to prefer `text'. The French use << text >>, German has >>text<< or ,,text``. French and Russian introduce direct speech with a dash. And so on. If you look closely, you may notice such subtle differences as opening curlies having their knob at the top or bottom end, etc. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 12:33:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A628437BACA for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:33:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA63167; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:02:21 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:02:20 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Brooks Davis Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: src/games/fortune/datfiles fortunes) Message-ID: <20000602090220.A62592@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20000601111501.A11561@sophos.com> <20000601141807.A40162@keltia.freenix.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> <20000602090744.Q20158@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20000601181133.A28687@orion.ac.hmc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000601181133.A28687@orion.ac.hmc.edu>; from brooks@one-eyed-alien.net on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:11:33PM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 06:11:33PM -0700, Brooks Davis wrote: > It all comes down to how you interpret "electronic manuscripts." If you > interpret them as any text in electronic form then Brett is correct. > I would be more inclined to believe that then mean, text in electronic > form intended to be output via a typesetting system. Standard Internet > e-mail is formatted with monospacing in mind and thus it would seem > that it should adopt the typewrite convention. Argueably, mdoc and > SGML documents should not because they are intended to be typeset not > read directly. SGML documents should use two spaces, because 1. They are being manipulated using tools that can make use of the extra information that two spaces at the end of a sentence provide (e.g., emacs, fmt, et al). 2. The typesetting systems that we're using can make their own decisions about the spacing at the end of sentences. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 12:36:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2F9437BE03 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:36:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA28403; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 21:36:25 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 21:36:25 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MS poll In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000602105141.008acbd0@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > Just found this site , which contains a poll on > whether Microsoft should be split. Here are the current results: > > Yes, it will help the computer industry: 12.3% > Yes, because Microsoft is evil: 25.1% > No, they shouldn't be split: 14.5% > No, it doesn't solve anything: 42.4% > I don't care about that: 5.8% > Total votes: 1404 > > Quite frankly, I'm surprised that the majority (56.9%) voted no. Look at the total no of votes - doe sthe poll have any relevance? > > Adam > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 12:43:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C00D37BF41 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:43:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from leviathan (gh.ws.linkfast.net [208.160.105.41]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 812999B09; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:43:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <000d01bfccca$e40f6ee0$2969a0d0@leviathan> From: "gh" To: "Christian Weisgerber" Cc: References: <006d01bfcc13$1b573c10$2969a0d0@leviathan> <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost> <8h8snk$1irg$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:43:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > American English quotating marks are ``text'', the British seem to > prefer `text'. The French use << text >>, German has >>text<< or > ,,text``. French and Russian introduce direct speech with a dash. > And so on. If you look closely, you may notice such subtle > differences as opening curlies having their knob at the top or > bottom end, etc. I seem to remember noticing in Spanish the use of `<<' followed by `>>' where Americans would use (American) standard ```' and `"' (quotes). This may have been limited to the specific publication. Dan > > -- > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 13:48:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from enterprise.sd73.bc.ca (enterprise.sd73.bc.ca [207.23.161.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5782537B6A5 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 13:48:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from fcash ([207.23.161.210]) by enterprise.sd73.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12577 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 13:53:05 -0700 From: "Freddie Cash" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 13:44:54 -0700 Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Message-ID: <3937BA56.27397.1330A84@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > This may just be for Canadian French, but in my 13 years of study > > and use, I've never seen a space before a '?' or a '!' or any > > other punctuation mark. > Randomly picking three (European) French books from the shelf, I see > a space being used before '?' and '!' in two of them. You can also > observe the practice over in the fr.* groups or quite often in > English articles posted by French speakers. > > As for the different `opening and closing' marks, what was the > > point to those?? I always found them to be very annoying and to > > break the flow of the type. ``just looks wrong'' > Excuse me, but what's the point of the American quotation marks? Why > are *they* different? And who introduced the bizarre concept of > repeating the opening marks at every new paragraph? Just looks > wrong. Eh, everything the Americans do is different and without sense. That's why I prefer the Canadian way. :-) Personnally, I prefer the opening quotes ate the head of subsequent paras, as it keeps the flow of the conversation/text in my mind. But, I am a very visually aesthetically inclined reader. :-) > More to the point, if you expand your horizon a bit, you'll learn > that every language (or even major national variation) has its own > typographic conventions. Asking about their point and declaring the > ones you happen to be used to as the right way is profoundly silly. Whoa, whoa, whoa there. I wasn't criticising, I was asking a question? I (still) don't know the reason (read: point) for the different quote marks. All quoting systems I've seen have been symmetrical, with the exception of the ``text'' system (and now the German one below). All I was asking was why is it that way? I know that every language has it's peculiarities and every typo system does too (not to mention every alphabet), but, that's now what I was aiming at. Read above. > American English quotating marks are ``text'', the British seem to > prefer `text'. The French use << text >>, German has >>text<< or > ,,text``. French and Russian introduce direct speech with a dash. > And so on. If you look closely, you may notice such subtle > differences as opening curlies having their knob at the top or > bottom end, etc. Freddie Software Support Co-op School District 73 fcash@sd73.bc.ca To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 15:24: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from azazel.zer0.org (azazel.zer0.org [209.133.53.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 560D837B5E0 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:24:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by azazel.zer0.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA18783; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:22:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:22:58 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Troy Settle Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for t-shirts Message-ID: <20000602152258.A17903@azazel.zer0.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from troy@picus.com on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 07:46:26AM -0400 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2000-06-02 07:46 -0400, Troy Settle wrote: > > That's the only name I've ever heard. > > But please... I would like to know what his real name is. He has no real name. "Damon" would ease a lot of the confusion, and "Beastie" (BSD) is apropos (and what Kirk uses; see http://www.mckusick.com/beastie/). Pick either. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter I got a Pentium II for my girlfriend. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org Good trade, eh? http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 15:28:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.jamessmail.com (209-128-84-233.bayarea.net [209.128.84.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C47A37B921 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:28:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jnix@jamessmail.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:28:20 -0700 Message-Id: <200006021528.AA324206920@mail.jamessmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "James Allen" Reply-To: X-Sender: To: Subject: Re: do you do windows... err... drugs? X-Mailer: X-IMSTrailer: __IMail_5__ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, it took so long for win2000 to boot that they "dried out". Maybe Win2k should be prescribed for drug addiction? James > http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/techenthusiast/geek/marykay.asp > > so how come i never see "FreeBSD got me off crack" articles??? -- James Allen jnix@jamessmail.com www.linuxstart.com/~jallen -- Like my email address? Get your own for FREE at http://firstname.com Get you@JohnsMail.com or you@AlexsMail.com or pick from 500 more! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 16:31:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABFFD37B76B for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:31:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17524; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:30:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000602165302.04939e50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 17:30:48 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: Cc: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200006021758.KAA23399@usr09.primenet.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:58 AM 6/2/2000, Terry Lambert wrote: >Please cite an English textbook on this, See http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767903722/ref=ed_oe_p/002-9186126-2223249 .... Also http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201339854/ref=sim_books/002-9186126-2223249 and http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226103897/wedwordcom/002-9186126-2223249 >rather than some stupid >MBA book, and I'll refrain from citing MBA books on how code >should be written. I'd think that an "MBA book," as you call it, is much more likely to be an authority on business correspondence than on programming. Also, here are some links to style guides around the Web, all of which say that it is desirable to use one space after a period that ends a sentence. (These are only the results of a brief search; I'm sure there are many more.) http://webster.commnet.edu/apa/apa_spacing.htm http://spider.georgetowncollege.edu/wsr/csc120/wp1spa97.htm http://www.stidolph.com/SEN/style.html http://www.hccs.cc.tx.us/system/public_info/gg-dtp.htm http://itc.dixie.edu/reber/mlastyle/typing.htm http://www.responsetv.com/styleguide.html http://www.marsdenshs.qld.edu.au/cameos/business/stylemanual/06spaces.html http://scrc.cit.nih.gov/dtp/tut/type/index.html http://www.apnet.com/narwhal/marguide.htm http://www.wwp.brown.edu/encoding/training/proofing/proofing.html http://www.colorado.edu/Publications/styleguide/computers.html http://www.ptloma.edu/communicationsoffice/PL_style_guide.htm http://www.u-aizu.ac.jp/~tripp/punc.html http://www.waldenu.edu/acad-rsrcs/writing-center/spots/spot6.html http://webword.com/reports/period.html http://home.vicnet.net.au/~sppathau/acqnotes.html http://www.science.smith.edu/geology/gmr/instructions/Format_instructions.html http://www.journalofromanarch.com/edit.html http://www.cidi.oas.org/edu40anivGuide.htm http://www.the-efa.org/news/gramglean.html#onespace --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 17:49:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 44DFD37B953 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:49:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 26448 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2000 00:49:26 -0000 Received: from du96.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.96) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 3 Jun 2000 00:49:26 -0000 Message-ID: <3938340F.58BEDB21@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 18:24:15 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stefan KORONKA wrote: > > > This is not to say that FreeBSD can't be > > made simpler, but there is a limit, and that limit is more > > complex than > > Windows. > > As a programmer who wrote (argh!) several applications for > windoze, from standard api stuff to com servers, i can't say > that windows is simple .. In fact, I find it more complex > than unix. My personal opinion is that: for windoz, if something > can be made harder, it will be. Opposed to: in unix, if something > can be solved simple, then it is .. > > Of course, for regular user, windoze can be a very friendly (?), > easy-to-start environment. But under this inflexible simplicity, > it is hiding a very huge mess. I agree that programming Windows is a hideous experience (especially the subtle, undocumented differences among platforms), but it was the regular user's experience that I was referring to. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 17:49:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 14BEA37C019 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:49:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 26543 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2000 00:49:29 -0000 Received: from du96.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.96) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 3 Jun 2000 00:49:29 -0000 Message-ID: <393855D9.F5F0E5F0@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 20:48:25 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE References: <200006021842.LAA24897@usr09.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > I think the important thing is not to create false expectations (of ease > > > > and simplicity) in the minds of those who have never been exposed to a > > > > real operating system. > > > > > > I think the important thing is to create TRUE expectations of > > > ease of use and simplicity in the minds of those who have > > > never been exposed to FreeBSD. > > > > > > Of course that means changing the code to have those as > > > attributes. > > > > But can that be done without radically changing the nature of the OS? > > Who cares? I care, and I think a lot of others do, too. I don't want to see FreeBSD become a Windows clone. > The point is to have the most effective human-computer > interaction (HCI) possible. You assume that such a thing exists; it doesn't. What one person finds effective another will find a hindrance. > > Home users and small businesses have been accustomed to a > > single-user OS. Multi-user OSes are necessarily more complex > > and (in some ways) more limiting than single-user OSes. > > This is an implementation detail, and it is based on a false > premise: that what people are currently accustomed to is what > an average human, with no prior experience, would expect the > system to behave. No, it's based on the premise that home users and small-business users who move to FreeBSD will have experience with Windows, and will compare FreeBSD to Windows. The premise you mention is probably false, but it is also irrelevant, because the number of people who move to FreeBSD with no prior computer experience at all is very, very small, if not zero. > > People are not prepared for, and may not put up with, these > > complexities and limitations. > > Most of these complexities are artifacts of substantial design > flaws, which should be corrected, instead of glossed over as > "that's the way it works; it's better, trust me". Some are, but some are due to essential differences between the kinds of systems that FreeBSD and Windows are. These difference will remain unless you convert FreeBSD to a single-user system. > > For example, people will say: "What do you mean I have to login? > > I didn't have to do that with Windows." > > Windows 3.1, perhaps. 95 and 98, too. > Probably it should be called "unlocking", > not "logging in". Certainly, it should be possible to turn on > a FreeBSD box and just get a graphical desktop or shell prompt > with a particular users credentials as an active default. It's > the user's choice, not the OS designers. The "login problem" > is trivial to overcome. While such a capability might be acceptable to a home or small-business user, giving the user the capability to turn off security would be unacceptable in a larger installation. > > or "What do you mean I can't undelete a file? I could do that > > with Windows." > > Well, the inability to undo an "oops" is a moronic point about > FreeBSD. Humans have accidents; you must accomodate this fact > about humans, rather than trying to suppress it. You must > design systems which tolerate faults. That's what backups are for. > > This is not to say that FreeBSD can't be made simpler, but > > there is a limit, and that limit is more complex than Windows. > > I think you are confusing the complexity of the system with the > complexity of abstraction presented to the operator of the system. No, I'm just not expressing myself clearly enough. I was referring not to the internals, but to the face the system presents to the user. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 18:12:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD4D337B92E for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:12:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA30137; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 10:41:50 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 10:41:50 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , Ollivier Robert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: Message-ID: <20000603104150.C29852@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> <200006021758.KAA23399@usr09.primenet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000602165302.04939e50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000602165302.04939e50@localhost> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 2 June 2000 at 17:30:48 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:58 AM 6/2/2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> Please cite an English textbook on this, > > See > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767903722/ref=ed_oe_p/002-9186126-2223249 > > .... Also > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201339854/ref=sim_books/002-9186126-2223249 > > and > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226103897/wedwordcom/002-9186126-2223249 You're not seriously expecting people to go out and buy three books to check whether they bear out your claims, are you? If you know the contents, you should quote them. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 18:25:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB09037B8AC for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:25:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA30274; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 10:55:26 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 10:55:26 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: fcash@bigfoot.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Message-ID: <20000603105526.A30249@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 2 June 2000 at 10:55:37 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Freddie Cash" writes: >>>>> I'll certainly try to remember this in my future emails. >>>> I trust you already noticed that English doesn't share the French >>>> habit of putting a space before '?' and '!'? >> This may just be for Canadian French, but in my 13 years of study and >> use, I've never seen a space before a '?' or a '!' or any other >> punctuation mark. > > French typography rules require a narrow space in front of question > and exclamation marks as well as colon and semi-colon, at least when > using proportional-width fonts. I don't know if the same rule applies > to monospace fonts. In my experience, it translates to a single space in each case. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 18:41:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3935F37B5E0 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:41:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA30316; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:11:07 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:11:07 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Message-ID: <20000603111107.B30249@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <006d01bfcc13$1b573c10$2969a0d0@leviathan> <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost> <8h8snk$1irg$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <8h8snk$1irg$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 2 June 2000 at 20:00:20 +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Freddie Cash wrote: > >> This may just be for Canadian French, but in my 13 years of study and >> use, I've never seen a space before a '?' or a '!' or any other >> punctuation mark. > > Randomly picking three (European) French books from the shelf, I > see a space being used before '?' and '!' in two of them. You can > also observe the practice over in the fr.* groups or quite often > in English articles posted by French speakers. I've just checked 7 books I could find easily. 5 had a full (m) space before ":" and ";", two a partial space. Two had a fractional space before "?" (approximately ¼ m space), the others had no space. >> As for the different `opening and closing' marks, what was the point to >> those?? I always found them to be very annoying and to break the flow of >> the type. ``just looks wrong'' > > Excuse me, but what's the point of the American quotation marks? They're used to quote literal speech. > Why are *they* different? From each other? So you can differntiate between open and close. German has the same concept, except that the opening quotes are (used to be, anyway) at the bottom of the line: ,,Lass' es sein'', sagte er. > And who introduced the bizarre concept of repeating the opening > marks at every new paragraph? Just looks wrong. Good question. But it's been there a while. > More to the point, if you expand your horizon a bit, you'll learn > that every language (or even major national variation) has its own > typographic conventions. Asking about their point and declaring the > ones you happen to be used to as the right way is profoundly silly. Indeed. > American English quotating marks are ``text'', the British seem to > prefer `text'. I don't see that difference. Typically it's `` and '' for both. > The French use << text >>, German has >>text<< or ,,text``. Well, ,,text''. But this is what you were complaining about earlier. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 18:56:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DC6637BE96 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:56:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r6.bfm.org [216.127.220.102]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 20:57:29 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000602205611.008b56c0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 20:56:11 -0500 To: Greg Lehey , Brett Glass From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000603104150.C29852@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000602165302.04939e50@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> <200006021758.KAA23399@usr09.primenet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000602165302.04939e50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:41 03-06-2000 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >You're not seriously expecting people to go out and buy three books to >check whether they bear out your claims, are you? Hehe. I enjoyed Brett's subtlety in the way he handled that. :) Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 2 21:13:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9E8437B764 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 21:13:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA19442; Fri, 2 Jun 2000 22:12:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000602221011.04940960@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 22:12:13 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions (was: cvs commit: Cc: Terry Lambert , Ollivier Robert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000603104150.C29852@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000602165302.04939e50@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000601162717.04482370@localhost> <200006021758.KAA23399@usr09.primenet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000602165302.04939e50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:11 PM 6/2/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: >You're not seriously expecting people to go out and buy three books to >check whether they bear out your claims, are you? I was asked for citations; I gave them. Plus a lot more. Sorry if you found that to be inadequate. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 0:11:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13DCE37BAF3 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 00:11:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA56328; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 00:11:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <3938AF9C.89EEDA7C@gorean.org> Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 00:11:24 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0528 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chip Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org chip wrote: > > I just recently changed from using KDE to using XFCE and find it > quite nice, certainly much faster than the graphics heavy KDE. And it > will run the few KDE apps that I use without a problem. I am wondering > about others impressions and experience with XFCE? I used KDE for a long time, but got tired of it crashing all the damn time. I've been using xfce for about 6 months, and in that time it's _never_ crashed, on either of my workstations. I agree with your assessment, it's mean and clean, and I like the desktop icons better than windows 95 style bar in kde. HTH, Doug -- "Live free or die" - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 0:44:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178C137BB17 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 00:44:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keichii@iteration.net) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D368264C21; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 02:44:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 02:44:15 -0500 From: "Michael C. Wu" To: Narvi Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MS poll Message-ID: <20000603024415.A29251@peorth.iteration.net> Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C. Wu" , Narvi , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3.0.6.32.20000602105141.008acbd0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 09:36:25PM +0200 X-FreeBSD-Header: This is a subliminal message from the vast FreeBSD conspiracy project. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD peorth.iteration.net 4.0-STABLE FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 09:36:25PM +0200, Narvi scribbled: | | On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: | | > Just found this site , which contains a poll on | > whether Microsoft should be split. Here are the current results: | > | > Yes, it will help the computer industry: 12.3% | > Yes, because Microsoft is evil: 25.1% | > No, they shouldn't be split: 14.5% | > No, it doesn't solve anything: 42.4% | > I don't care about that: 5.8% | > Total votes: 1404 | > | > Quite frankly, I'm surprised that the majority (56.9%) voted no. | | Look at the total no of votes - doe sthe poll have any relevance? Since when did online polls have any statistical value? -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net - Yes, this is a conspiracy. | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 0:45:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 14BFC37BB19 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 00:45:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 20732 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2000 04:28:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 3 Jun 2000 04:28:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 13691 invoked by uid 211); 3 Jun 2000 04:28:23 -0000 Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 09:58:23 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE Message-ID: <20000603095822.A13686@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200006021842.LAA24897@usr09.primenet.com> <393855D9.F5F0E5F0@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <393855D9.F5F0E5F0@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Fri, Jun 02, 2000 at 08:48:25PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.36 i686 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thomas M. Sommers said on Jun 2, 2000 at 20:48:25: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > People are not prepared for, and may not put up with, these > > > complexities and limitations. > > > > Most of these complexities are artifacts of substantial design > > flaws, which should be corrected, instead of glossed over as > > "that's the way it works; it's better, trust me". > > Some are, but some are due to essential differences between the kinds of > systems that FreeBSD and Windows are. These difference will remain > unless you convert FreeBSD to a single-user system. > > > > For example, people will say: "What do you mean I have to login? > > > I didn't have to do that with Windows." > > > > Windows 3.1, perhaps. > > 95 and 98, too. > > > Probably it should be called "unlocking", > > not "logging in". Certainly, it should be possible to turn on > > a FreeBSD box and just get a graphical desktop or shell prompt > > with a particular users credentials as an active default. It's > > the user's choice, not the OS designers. The "login problem" > > is trivial to overcome. > > While such a capability might be acceptable to a home or small-business > user, giving the user the capability to turn off security would be > unacceptable in a larger installation. (a) I don't see what's so hard about logging in. Anyone who uses email uses a password. Ordinary people aren't *that* dumb. (b) I read of an interesting setup done by a linux user for his mother: the startup scripts simply su to an unprivileged user, and start x as that user with some nice preconfigured desktop. End user experience for mother is same as in windows, but she's still an unprivileged user. There *may* be some point to that if the machine really isn't going to be used by more than one person and if that person is especially scared of computers generally. Otherwise I don't think it's worth the trouble, though... > > Well, the inability to undo an "oops" is a moronic point about > > FreeBSD. Humans have accidents; you must accomodate this fact > > about humans, rather than trying to suppress it. You must > > design systems which tolerate faults. > > That's what backups are for. What's wrong with having an undelete command, if someone can implement one? R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 3: 5:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F5AD37B6CE for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 03:05:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.7/nospam) with UUCP id MAA23431 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 12:05:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 2A4A1887C; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 12:01:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 12:01:33 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Message-ID: <20000603120133.A83411@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost> <20000603105526.A30249@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.11i In-Reply-To: <20000603105526.A30249@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 10:55:26AM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Greg Lehey: > In my experience, it translates to a single space in each case. Yes although I've been known to put non breakable space (ISO code #160) before ':', ';' in order to prevent wordwrapping at the wrong place. Sadly support for proper display of it is severely lacking (in (x)emacs at least). -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 5.0-CURRENT #79: Sun May 28 01:27:10 CEST 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 6:31: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C8E237BB34 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 06:30:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@mips.inka.de) Received: from bigeye.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 12yE0o-0007Uo-01; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:30:50 +0200 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.mips.inka.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA91009 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 14:39:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Date: 3 Jun 2000 14:39:53 +0200 Message-ID: <8hauap$2oro$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> References: <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost> <20000603105526.A30249@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20000603120133.A83411@keltia.freenix.fr> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ollivier Robert wrote: > Yes although I've been known to put non breakable space (ISO code #160) before > ':', ';' in order to prevent wordwrapping at the wrong place. The use of « ... » (to use HTML notation) is very common over in the fr.* groups. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 6:31: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A85737B522 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 06:30:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@mips.inka.de) Received: from bigeye.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 12yE0o-0007Uo-02; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:30:50 +0200 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.mips.inka.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA91582 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:01:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Date: 3 Jun 2000 15:01:24 +0200 Message-ID: <8havj4$2pdj$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> References: <006d01bfcc13$1b573c10$2969a0d0@leviathan> <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost> <8h8snk$1irg$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> <20000603111107.B30249@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > American English quotating marks are ``text'', the British seem to > > prefer `text'. > > I don't see that difference. Typically it's `` and '' for both. I just checked a few paperbacks (Iain Banks, Arthur C. Clarke, Stephen Donaldson, Greg Egan) typeset in the UK, and they uniformly use `...' for first level and ``...'' for second level quotation marks. The only two Australian printings I have at hand both have ``...''. > > German has >>text<< or ,,text``. > > Well, ,,text''. Sorry, but it really is ,,text``. Or, to give a better description: 66 . . . 99 Books almost universally use inverted guillemets nowadays. The type of quotation marks above is mostly limited to magazines and newspapers. As mentioned in discussions on de.etc.sprache.deutsch, some publishers apparently also use guillemets without inversion <<...>>, but that is rare, at least in Germany (might be different in Switzerland). Remarkably, c't and iX use `...'. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 9: 3: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD4CD37B893 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 09:03:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from leviathan (gh.ws.linkfast.net [208.160.105.41]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id AD9DE9B0C; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:03:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <011b01bfcd75$3706e650$2969a0d0@leviathan> From: "gh" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: References: <200006021842.LAA24897@usr09.primenet.com> <393855D9.F5F0E5F0@mail.ptd.net> <20000603095822.A13686@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:03:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > What's wrong with having an undelete command, if someone can implement > one? What a silly question. For an operating system to have an ``undelete'' option, the OS must maintain a copy of the deleted files...which defeats the purpose of deleting the damn files. I find that the best way to handle my mistakes is simply to make none. Everybody makes mistakes; it is *NOT* the job of the operating system to pick up the poopoo left after the mistake. Allow people to make mistakes; but, *encourage* the person (almost put `dumbass'...) to learn from it. Dan > > R. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 10:10:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C066037BB64 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 10:10:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA47906; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 12:10:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 12:10:31 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Freddie Cash Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions In-Reply-To: <3937967F.17328.A70476@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 2 Jun 2000, Freddie Cash wrote: : :Ugh! I can't stand it when people use the curled-fingers "" to show :sarcasm. Unless they are very young, it makes them look very silly. ::-) Just emphasize / sarcastify your comment using tone/expression. Of course, the smiley is a well-respected stylistic device, that never implies the author is worried that his messsage is unclear. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 10:21: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C1F237BB64 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 10:20:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 23841 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2000 17:20:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 3 Jun 2000 17:20:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 13382 invoked by uid 211); 3 Jun 2000 17:20:29 -0000 Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 22:50:29 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: gh Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE Message-ID: <20000603225029.A13363@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <200006021842.LAA24897@usr09.primenet.com> <393855D9.F5F0E5F0@mail.ptd.net> <20000603095822.A13686@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <011b01bfcd75$3706e650$2969a0d0@leviathan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <011b01bfcd75$3706e650$2969a0d0@leviathan>; from grasshacker@linkfast.net on Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 11:03:10AM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.36 i686 X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org gh said on Jun 3, 2000 at 11:03:10: > > > > What's wrong with having an undelete command, if someone can implement > > one? > > > What a silly question. > For an operating system to have an ``undelete'' option, the OS must maintain > a copy of the deleted files...which defeats the purpose of deleting the damn > files. man 2 undelete Basically, a delete/rm command doesn't physically erase data from the disk, it only removes the file entry. The data may still be there if you're lucky. I don't know what the issues are with ufs, however. With an msdos filesystem it's pretty straightforward to get the data back if that hard disk space hasn't been written over in the meantime. > Everybody makes mistakes; it is *NOT* the job of the operating system > to pick up the poopoo left after the mistake. But it helps... R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 11:26:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69D437BBD3 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:26:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grasshacker@linkfast.net) Received: from leviathan (gh.ws.linkfast.net [208.160.105.41]) by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 816219B42; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 13:26:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <001301bfcd89$467130a0$2969a0d0@leviathan> From: "gh" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: References: <200006021842.LAA24897@usr09.primenet.com> <393855D9.F5F0E5F0@mail.ptd.net> <20000603095822.A13686@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <011b01bfcd75$3706e650$2969a0d0@leviathan> <20000603225029.A13363@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 13:26:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > gh said on Jun 3, 2000 at 11:03:10: > > > > > > What's wrong with having an undelete command, if someone can implement > > > one? > > > > What a silly question. > > For an operating system to have an ``undelete'' option, the OS must maintain > > a copy of the deleted files...which defeats the purpose of deleting the damn > > files. > > man 2 undelete > > Basically, a delete/rm command doesn't physically erase data from the > disk, it only removes the file entry. The data may still be there if > you're lucky. I don't know what the issues are with ufs, however. > With an msdos filesystem it's pretty straightforward to get the data > back if that hard disk space hasn't been written over in the meantime. > True, but in order to have a *guaranteed*(mostly) recovery of the file, a journaling file system or something similar would be necessary. > > Everybody makes mistakes; it is *NOT* the job of the operating system > > to pick up the poopoo left after the mistake. > > But it helps... > ...so does learning from mistakes. Dan PS: All of us probably have better things about which to be concerned...like punctuation. ;-)) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Alludes to the Punctuation thread. > R. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 12:42:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 050A237BCCF for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 12:42:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA55917; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 21:42:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 21:42:49 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006031942.VAA55917@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <8h9nom$2721$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> Organization: Administration TU Clausthal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In list.freebsd-chat Greg Lehey wrote: > On Friday, 2 June 2000 at 20:00:20 +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > The French use << text >>, German has >>text<< or ,,text``. > > Well, ,,text''. But this is what you were complaining about earlier. Sorry for nitpicking, but it's neither ,,text`` nor ,,text''. Unfortunately, ISO-8859-1 does not contain the right character (it looks like a comma rotated by 180°, i.e. shaped like the digit 6). BTW, is there a way to obtain them in SGML/Docbook, like “ and ” for English quotes? When restricted to ISO-8859-1 (or even plain ASCII), it depends on the font whether ,,text`` or ,,text'' comes visually closer to the real thing. It seems that in most monospaced pixel fonts (e.g. on terminals) the second variant looks better, while the first one tends to be better when using high-res proportional fonts. But this is just my observation, not a rule. Another possibility when restricted to ISO-8859-1 in German- language texts is to use »these« quotes. Personally I like them, but they're not available in plain ASCII, and I dislike their approximation using >>these<< characters. Regards Oliver PS: Just for the record, I use two spaces after periods in monospaced text -- not because I believe in some rule or standard, but just because I think it improves readability. When writing things in TeX, I also prefer the default mode (i.e. not \frenchspacing) for the same reason. -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 14:48:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (pop3.pioneernet.net [208.240.196.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B1F437BCD2 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 14:48:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from chip.wiegand.org [208.194.173.26] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.00) id AF04120A026C; Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:56:20 -0700 From: chip To: Doug Barton Subject: Re: XFCE Window Manager Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 14:46:58 -0700 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <00060117263800.82982@chip.wiegand.org> <3938AF9C.89EEDA7C@gorean.org> In-Reply-To: <3938AF9C.89EEDA7C@gorean.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00060314502400.09463@chip.wiegand.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Which version are you using? I have 3.3.1 and have just downloaded 3.4.0. It's not a package or port though, so I'm a little unsure about installing it. Do I just 'tar xzvf' the file and restart XCFE? -- Chip Wiegand ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ visit Alternative Operating Systems www.wiegand.org On Sat, 03 Jun 2000, Doug Barton wrote: > chip wrote: > > > > I just recently changed from using KDE to using XFCE and find it > > quite nice, certainly much faster than the graphics heavy KDE. And it > > will run the few KDE apps that I use without a problem. I am wondering > > about others impressions and experience with XFCE? > > I used KDE for a long time, but got tired of it crashing all the damn > time. I've been using xfce for about 6 months, and in that time it's > _never_ crashed, on either of my workstations. I agree with your > assessment, it's mean and clean, and I like the desktop icons better > than windows 95 style bar in kde. > > HTH, > > Doug > -- > "Live free or die" > - State motto of my ancestral homeland, New Hampshire > > Do YOU Yahoo!? > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 17:21:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C7B8537BD40 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 17:21:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 24582 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2000 00:21:07 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 4 Jun 2000 00:21:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 25182 invoked by uid 211); 4 Jun 2000 00:21:00 -0000 Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 05:51:00 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: gh Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE Message-ID: <20000604055100.A25126@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <200006021842.LAA24897@usr09.primenet.com> <393855D9.F5F0E5F0@mail.ptd.net> <20000603095822.A13686@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <011b01bfcd75$3706e650$2969a0d0@leviathan> <20000603225029.A13363@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <001301bfcd89$467130a0$2969a0d0@leviathan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <001301bfcd89$467130a0$2969a0d0@leviathan>; from grasshacker@linkfast.net on Sat, Jun 03, 2000 at 01:26:46PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org gh said on Jun 3, 2000 at 13:26:46: > > gh said on Jun 3, 2000 at 11:03:10: > > > > > > > > What's wrong with having an undelete command, if someone can implement > > > > one? > > > > > > What a silly question. > > > For an operating system to have an ``undelete'' option, the OS must > maintain > > > a copy of the deleted files...which defeats the purpose of deleting the > damn > > > files. > > > > man 2 undelete > > > > Basically, a delete/rm command doesn't physically erase data from the > > disk, it only removes the file entry. The data may still be there if > > you're lucky. I don't know what the issues are with ufs, however. > > With an msdos filesystem it's pretty straightforward to get the data > > back if that hard disk space hasn't been written over in the meantime. > > > > True, but in order to have a *guaranteed*(mostly) recovery of the file, a > journaling file system or something similar would be necessary. We're not talking about guaranteed recovery -- that's not possible on MSDOS either. (Incidentally, the undelete command on MSDOS wasn't originated by Microsoft -- I think it was Peter Norton. Microsoft didn't include it with their OS for several years.) There's an undeletion how-to for linux ext2 filesystems, http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/mini/Ext2fs-Undeletion.html those aren't journalled either. The procedure requires unmounting and stuff like that, definitely not for ordinary users. Still, undeleting is not impossible in principle, and if it can be implemented in a better way I don't see what's wrong with that. > > > Everybody makes mistakes; it is *NOT* the job of the operating system > > > to pick up the poopoo left after the mistake. > > > > But it helps... > > > > ...so does learning from mistakes. So a text editor shouldn't have an undo command either, because then people would learn to type without mistakes? Nobody deletes an important file because they're confident of undeleting it later, not even windows users. It's always an accident and it can happen to the best people. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 17:54:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2692537C49F for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 17:54:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 22734 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2000 00:54:12 -0000 Received: from du207.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.207) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 4 Jun 2000 00:54:12 -0000 Message-ID: <3939A4B5.C62DF7F8@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 20:37:09 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE References: <200006021842.LAA24897@usr09.primenet.com> <393855D9.F5F0E5F0@mail.ptd.net> <20000603095822.A13686@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Thomas M. Sommers said on Jun 2, 2000 at 20:48:25: > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > People are not prepared for, and may not put up with, these > > > > complexities and limitations. > > > > > > Most of these complexities are artifacts of substantial design > > > flaws, which should be corrected, instead of glossed over as > > > "that's the way it works; it's better, trust me". > > > > Some are, but some are due to essential differences between the kinds of > > systems that FreeBSD and Windows are. These difference will remain > > unless you convert FreeBSD to a single-user system. > > > > > > For example, people will say: "What do you mean I have to login? > > > > I didn't have to do that with Windows." > > > > > > Windows 3.1, perhaps. > > > > 95 and 98, too. > > > > > Probably it should be called "unlocking", > > > not "logging in". Certainly, it should be possible to turn on > > > a FreeBSD box and just get a graphical desktop or shell prompt > > > with a particular users credentials as an active default. It's > > > the user's choice, not the OS designers. The "login problem" > > > is trivial to overcome. > > > > While such a capability might be acceptable to a home or small-business > > user, giving the user the capability to turn off security would be > > unacceptable in a larger installation. > > (a) I don't see what's so hard about logging in. Anyone who > uses email uses a password. Ordinary people aren't *that* dumb. It's not a question of dumb, but of being required to do something inconvenient that they don't see the point for, and that they didn't have to do before. > What's wrong with having an undelete command, if someone can implement > one? Nothing, *if* it can be implemented without affecting the integrity of the system. But coming up with an implementation is not easy. There are security concerns. How do undeleteable files interact with disk quotas? How do they interact with multiple hard links? That, in the 30 years since its creation, Unix has not come up with undelete strongly suggests that either it can't be done or that there is no real need for it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 17:54:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9E49137BEE2 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 17:54:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 22630 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2000 00:54:09 -0000 Received: from du207.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.207) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 4 Jun 2000 00:54:09 -0000 Message-ID: <39398A1D.5BAC99F1@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 18:43:41 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: gh , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE References: <200006021842.LAA24897@usr09.primenet.com> <393855D9.F5F0E5F0@mail.ptd.net> <20000603095822.A13686@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <011b01bfcd75$3706e650$2969a0d0@leviathan> <20000603225029.A13363@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > man 2 undelete > > Basically, a delete/rm command doesn't physically erase data from the > disk, it only removes the file entry. The data may still be there if > you're lucky. I don't know what the issues are with ufs, however. > With an msdos filesystem it's pretty straightforward to get the data > back if that hard disk space hasn't been written over in the meantime. The problem is that the space your file used to occupy may now be filled with information that belongs to someone else (who used your space and then deleted his file). This doesn't matter in MS-DOS, because that OS has no concept of file ownership, but it is a significant security hole in Unix. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 19:56: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D80137BD15 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 19:55:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA85671; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 12:25:36 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 12:25:36 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Punctuation conventions Message-ID: <20000604122536.A85628@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <006d01bfcc13$1b573c10$2969a0d0@leviathan> <3936A504.9741.9963DB1@localhost> <8h8snk$1irg$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> <20000603111107.B30249@wantadilla.lemis.com> <8havj4$2pdj$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <8havj4$2pdj$1@bigeye.mips.inka.de> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 3 June 2000 at 15:01:24 +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> American English quotating marks are ``text'', the British seem to >>> prefer `text'. >> >> I don't see that difference. Typically it's `` and '' for both. > > I just checked a few paperbacks (Iain Banks, Arthur C. Clarke, > Stephen Donaldson, Greg Egan) typeset in the UK, and they uniformly > use `...' for first level and ``...'' for second level quotation > marks. All from the same publisher, perhaps? I've just grabbed about 8 books printed in England. Only two of them had the single quote convention, both Penguins. An older Penguin book had double quotes. > The only two Australian printings I have at hand both have ``...''. > >>> German has >>text<< or ,,text``. >> >> Well, ,,text''. > > Sorry, but it really is ,,text``. Or, to give a better description: > > 66 > . . . > 99 That's not `` in my book. > Books almost universally use inverted guillemets nowadays. I took a look at about 8 German books. A surprising number of them used inverted guillemets, but the others either had the 99/66 convention, or in one case (Frank Theiss, ,,GÄa'', printed by the Druckhaus Neckator in Stuttgart) literally ,,/'' (no curvature, no thickening at one end). In Fraktur it's pretty much that as well: no curvature, slight thickening at the ends you indicate. Duden agrees with any of these conventions, including the French. > The type of quotation marks above is mostly limited to magazines and > newspapers. As mentioned in discussions on de.etc.sprache.deutsch, > some publishers apparently also use guillemets without inversion > <<...>>, but that is rare, at least in Germany (might be different > in Switzerland). Yes, that's what Duden says. > Remarkably, c't and iX use `...'. What, you still read iX? c't seems to use `...' and ,,...'' for different things, the latter (in the editorial "...") for quoted speech. Look at page 256 of 8/2000 for an example of ,,...''. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 21:26:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7644B37C65D for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 21:26:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28487; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 22:26:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000603222418.04946e30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 22:26:12 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE In-Reply-To: <3939A4B5.C62DF7F8@mail.ptd.net> References: <200006021842.LAA24897@usr09.primenet.com> <393855D9.F5F0E5F0@mail.ptd.net> <20000603095822.A13686@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:37 PM 6/3/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >> What's wrong with having an undelete command, if someone can implement >> one? > >Nothing, *if* it can be implemented without affecting the integrity of >the system. But coming up with an implementation is not easy. There >are security concerns. How do undeleteable files interact with disk >quotas? How do they interact with multiple hard links? That, in the 30 >years since its creation, Unix has not come up with undelete strongly >suggests that either it can't be done or that there is no real need for >it. "Unix" (whatever it means in this context) may not have come up with an undelete command, but Norton Computing (now part of Symantec) did. The Norton Utilities for Unix never sold very well, but had this feature. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 22: 7:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B750737C7A4 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 22:07:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@glue.umd.edu) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA10262 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 01:07:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA06929 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 01:07:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA06925 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 01:07:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 01:07:18 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Porter's Handbook category violations In-Reply-To: <20000603215053.B65314@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, David O'Brien wrote: > > which ones should be repo-copied to security/ and then have their "net" Another dumb question, but what is a repo-copy? I understand it has something to do with CVS, but not much more thna that. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 22:32:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4928F37B585 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 22:32:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r5.bfm.org [216.127.220.101]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sun, 4 Jun 2000 00:33:22 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000604003206.008bb210@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 00:32:06 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan , gh From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000604055100.A25126@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <001301bfcd89$467130a0$2969a0d0@leviathan> <200006021842.LAA24897@usr09.primenet.com> <393855D9.F5F0E5F0@mail.ptd.net> <20000603095822.A13686@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <011b01bfcd75$3706e650$2969a0d0@leviathan> <20000603225029.A13363@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <001301bfcd89$467130a0$2969a0d0@leviathan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:51 04-06-2000 +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >We're not talking about guaranteed recovery -- that's not possible >on MSDOS either. (Incidentally, the undelete command on MSDOS wasn't >originated by Microsoft -- I think it was Peter Norton. Microsoft >didn't include it with their OS for several years.) They still don't. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 3 23: 9:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CAD3B37C885 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2000 23:09:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 18210 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2000 06:09:14 -0000 Received: from du16.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.16) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 4 Jun 2000 06:09:14 -0000 Message-ID: <3939F26A.A405DD4A@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 02:08:42 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why encourage stupid people to use *BSD WAS:Re: IE References: <200006021842.LAA24897@usr09.primenet.com> <393855D9.F5F0E5F0@mail.ptd.net> <20000603095822.A13686@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000603222418.04946e30@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > "Unix" (whatever it means in this context) may not have come up with > an undelete command, but Norton Computing (now part of Symantec) did. > The Norton Utilities for Unix never sold very well, but had this > feature. I hadn't heard of that. How did it work? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message