From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 0:32:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.tesserae.com (freebsd.tesserae.com [209.157.194.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E7C837C14C; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:32:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pwiley@cadabra.com) Received: by freebsd.tesserae.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 396EB462; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freebsd.tesserae.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3230B443; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:32:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "Preston S. Wiley" X-Sender: pwiley@freebsd.tesserae.com To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709003340.049d0930@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Er, Jordan, *now* who's advocating being Quixotic? Such an effort > requires a team, as I can't exactly afford to quit putting food on the > table in order to do it alone. By arguing against the concept you are > discouraging people from joining that effort and are thus sabotaging it > and making it infeasible to undertake. Again, it appears that you are > trying to undermine my heretofore succesful fforts to promote the BSDs. > Why? Sounds to me like he is just disagreeing with you. Nothing wrong with that. We all have the right to our own opinions, even if it damages your argument. I wouldn't call having a differing opinion "sabotage." If you want to find a team of people to work on it, find people who actually agree with you. - Preston To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 0:37:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bishopston.net (h91.reverse.bishopston.net [24.68.200.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8656237B58A; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:37:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jamie@bishopston.net) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by bishopston.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA29974; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 08:37:34 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from ) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 08:37:34 +0100 (BST) From: Jamie Jones Message-Id: <200007090737.IAA29974@bishopston.net> To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708104111.051b45a0@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:49 PM 7/7/2000, David Kelly wrote: >I will not *buy* software to run >under emulation. I would not buy the Linux version of Applixware. I >will not buy a Linux version of WP8. I will not buy a Linux version of >Opera. Considering that Opera will not be on my FreeBSD machines then >its extremely unlikely to be purchased for my Macintosh. Same here.... When and if vmware 2 goes native FreeBSD, I'll be buying it. I may get opera, too, but only if a native version is released. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 1: 2:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CB1B37B54F; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 01:02:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 01:01:46 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Jamie Jones" , , , , Subject: RE: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 01:02:09 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <200007090737.IAA29974@bishopston.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 08:49 PM 7/7/2000, David Kelly wrote: > >I will not *buy* software to run > >under emulation. I would not buy the Linux version of Applixware. I > >will not buy a Linux version of WP8. I will not buy a Linux version of > >Opera. Considering that Opera will not be on my FreeBSD machines then > >its extremely unlikely to be purchased for my Macintosh. > Same here.... > When and if vmware 2 goes native FreeBSD, I'll be buying it. I may > get opera, too, but only if a native version is released. > > Jamie If the version under emulation were officially supported, why wouldn't you buy it? Is it purely for 'religious' reasons? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 1: 4:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E072D37B525 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 01:04:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 1489 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2000 08:04:10 -0000 Received: from theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.128) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 9 Jul 2000 08:04:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 523 invoked by uid 211); 9 Jul 2000 08:04:08 -0000 Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:34:08 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD :Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) Message-ID: <20000709133408.A518@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708230835.04f8e930@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708230835.04f8e930@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 11:16:30PM -0600 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.32 i486 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Jul 8, 2000 at 23:16:30: > The rest of your message is an insulting ad hominem attack and not > worthy of a reply. That must be a first from Brett -- to think that something is not worthy of a reply. (Even if it was just a fraction of an email.) Brett, if you want to be taken seriously I think you have to change your style of writing (and don't answer that you've 20 years of experience in writing, that has nothing to do with it). And that's only part of the problem. You seem to be willing to write unlimited quantities of email, but want Jordan and others to do all your work for you. Looks pretty ridiculous to me. If you have an idea and you think it's good, *you* follow it up, and stop spamming everyone like this. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 1:11:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 345C537B54F; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 01:11:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 01:10:39 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: , Subject: RE: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 01:11:02 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709004740.049f9740@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 12:31 AM 7/9/2000, David Schwartz wrote: > > If it's in fact easier to officially support the Linux > version on FreeBSD, > >then that will provide a great stepping stone for getting to real FreeBSD > >support. Later, with a proven customer base and demonstrated interest, a > >business case can be made for improving FreeBSD support. > Unfortunately, David, they won't know which users are running FreeBSD, and > therefore will not be able to quantify that customer base. It is therefore > unlikely that their marketers will be able to make a case for the native > port. > > --Brett While I think that this could potentially happen, I don't think it's inevitable. A lot hinges on how vocal and visible the FreeBSD crowd is. Let's consider a case where it might matter. You have to make a few assumptions, or it doesn't even matter: 1) The company has a Linux build. (Otherwise, it doesn't matter whether or not FreeBSD has Linux emulation.) 2) They don't [yet] have a native FreeBSD build. (Otherwise, it doesn't matter whether or not FreeBSD has Linux emulation.) 3) The Linux build works on FreeBSD under emulation. (Otherwise, it doesn't matter whether or not FreeBSD has Linux emulation.) Now think about what happens given that these three things are true. Having the Linux version being used on FreeBSD can only increase the number of people talking about the product and FreeBSD. Now, two things are possible: 1) The non-native build works perfectly under FreeBSD. (In which case, except for OS bigotry, there is no reason to have a FreeBSD-native version.) 2) A native build would work significantly better. (In which case, the only reason for the company not to make a native build is if it doesn't justify the improvement (in which case, they _shouldn't_ make one just to make the FreeBSD crowd happy), or it does (in which case, if they're smart, they'll make one.) Having more ways to support FreeBSD only increases the chances that FreeBSD will be supported. And being OS bigots about how its supported doesn't help anyone. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 1:15:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1457A37BAB7 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 01:15:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA15737; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 17:44:36 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 17:44:36 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD :Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) Message-ID: <20000709174435.H14455@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708230835.04f8e930@localhost> <20000709133408.A518@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000709133408.A518@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 9 July 2000 at 13:34:08 +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Brett Glass said on Jul 8, 2000 at 23:16:30: > >> The rest of your message is an insulting ad hominem attack and not >> worthy of a reply. > > That must be a first from Brett -- to think that something is not > worthy of a reply. (Even if it was just a fraction of an email.) No, he's done this to me before. > Brett, if you want to be taken seriously I think you have to change > your style of writing (and don't answer that you've 20 years of > experience in writing, that has nothing to do with it). And that's > only part of the problem. You seem to be willing to write unlimited > quantities of email, but want Jordan and others to do all your work > for you. Looks pretty ridiculous to me. If you have an idea and > you think it's good, *you* follow it up, and stop spamming everyone > like this. To be fair, it's not Brett's style that's the problem, it's the content. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 1:36:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5095437B696; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 01:36:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA15771; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 18:06:13 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 18:06:13 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: David Schwartz Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Message-ID: <20000709180613.I14455@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709004740.049f9740@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 9 July 2000 at 1:11:02 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: >> At 12:31 AM 7/9/2000, David Schwartz wrote: > >>> If it's in fact easier to officially support the Linux >>> version on FreeBSD, then that will provide a great stepping stone >>> for getting to real FreeBSD support. Later, with a proven customer >>> base and demonstrated interest, a business case can be made for >>> improving FreeBSD support. >> >> Unfortunately, David, they won't know which users are running FreeBSD, and >> therefore will not be able to quantify that customer base. It is therefore >> unlikely that their marketers will be able to make a case for the native >> port. >> >> --Brett > > While I think that this could potentially happen, I don't think it's > inevitable. A lot hinges on how vocal and visible the FreeBSD crowd is. > > Let's consider a case where it might matter. You have to make a few > assumptions, or it doesn't even matter: > > 1) The company has a Linux build. (Otherwise, it doesn't matter whether or > not FreeBSD has Linux emulation.) > > 2) They don't [yet] have a native FreeBSD build. (Otherwise, it doesn't > matter whether or not FreeBSD has Linux emulation.) > > 3) The Linux build works on FreeBSD under emulation. (Otherwise, it doesn't > matter whether or not FreeBSD has Linux emulation.) > > Now think about what happens given that these three things are true. Having > the Linux version being used on FreeBSD can only increase the number of > people talking about the product and FreeBSD. > > Now, two things are possible: > > 1) The non-native build works perfectly under FreeBSD. (In which case, > except for OS bigotry, there is no reason to have a FreeBSD-native version.) > > 2) A native build would work significantly better. (In which case, the only > reason for the company not to make a native build is if it doesn't justify > the improvement (in which case, they _shouldn't_ make one just to make the > FreeBSD crowd happy), or it does (in which case, if they're smart, they'll > make one.) *sigh* I had intended to keep out of this, but I must say I like your analysis. I'd like to add that we're not really talking about Linux vs. BSD here, we're talking about ABIs. At a time when even the commercial vendors are talking about adopting the Linux ABI, and I recently received a book on SUS2 from the OpenGroup which included an (uninstallable) copy of Deviant Linux, it seems remarkably head-in-the-sand to say that we should ignore this particular ABI because it was written for our "competitor". Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 6:23:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mout1.silyn-tek.de (mout1.silyn-tek.de [194.25.165.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC8337B63B; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 06:23:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from [192.168.32.33] (helo=mx1.silyn-tek.de) by mout1.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 13BH3L-0006YI-00; Sun, 09 Jul 2000 15:23:23 +0200 Received: from p3e9c115c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([62.156.17.92] helo=neutron.cichlids.com) by mx1.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 13BH3J-0006bR-00; Sun, 09 Jul 2000 15:23:21 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB5D7AB8C; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:24:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6EAC514A13; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:23:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:23:33 +0200 To: "David E. O'Brien" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/net/nemesis - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000709152333.D51755@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: "David E. O'Brien" , chat@freebsd.org References: <200007080424.VAA96141@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200007080424.VAA96141@freefall.freebsd.org>; from obrien@FreeBSD.org on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 09:24:21PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. From: alex@big.endian.de (Alexander Langer) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake David E. O'Brien (obrien@FreeBSD.org): > Nemesis is a command line, portable "human IP stack". It can be useful for Does this mean, blood tranfusions can be done over IP now? ;-) Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 11:22:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0643A37B976 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 11:22:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12145; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 12:21:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709121442.04a06c90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 12:21:51 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD :Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000709133408.A518@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708230835.04f8e930@localhost> <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708230835.04f8e930@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:04 AM 7/9/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Brett, if you want to be taken seriously I think you have to change >your style of writing (and don't answer that you've 20 years of >experience in writing, that has nothing to do with it). I'm sorry if you don't like my writing style. If you have any specific and CONSTRUCTVE criticisms, I'll consider them. > And that's >only part of the problem. You seem to be willing to write unlimited >quantities of email, I'm a very fast writer, and it doesn't take much time. Coding and architecture, on the other hand, take much more. >but want Jordan and others to do all your work >for you. Not so. However, as a programmer who has had a great deal of experience with scoping out and executing projects, I estimate that this effort would require a minimum of four programmers (perhaps as many as six, depending on how much work they were willing to take on) to consider doing. Otherwise, it could not be completed in sufficient time to do much good.(I do have paid work, a wife, and a life, you know, so I'm not available to do this full time unless you know of a very generous patron.) So, the various messages advocating that I do it all myself are simply insults and dismissals, nothing more. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 11:30:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B67937B66B; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 11:30:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12179; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 12:29:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709122318.04a05100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 12:29:53 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: , In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709004740.049f9740@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:11 AM 7/9/2000, David Schwartz wrote: > While I think that this could potentially happen, I don't think it's >inevitable. A lot hinges on how vocal and visible the FreeBSD crowd is. The FreeBSD crowd isn't nearly vocal enough! In fact, certain people seem to advocate AGAINST advocacy. > Let's consider a case where it might matter. You have to make a few >assumptions, or it doesn't even matter: > > 1) The company has a Linux build. (Otherwise, it doesn't matter whether or >not FreeBSD has Linux emulation.) > > 2) They don't [yet] have a native FreeBSD build. (Otherwise, it doesn't >matter whether or not FreeBSD has Linux emulation.) > > 3) The Linux build works on FreeBSD under emulation. (Otherwise, it doesn't >matter whether or not FreeBSD has Linux emulation.) > > Now think about what happens given that these three things are true. Having >the Linux version being used on FreeBSD can only increase the number of >people talking about the product and FreeBSD. And telling the company, "Hey, it runs under emulation!" Which encourages it not to do a native port. > Now, two things are possible: > > 1) The non-native build works perfectly under FreeBSD. (In which case, >except for OS bigotry, there is no reason to have a FreeBSD-native version.) Not so. Users still won't be supported on a platform other than the one for which the binary is targeted. Also, you are making the dangerous assumption that the emulation is perfect and will always be so. This is not wise. The next version might be Linux-specific. > 2) A native build would work significantly better. (In which case, the only >reason for the company not to make a native build is if it doesn't justify >the improvement (in which case, they _shouldn't_ make one just to make the >FreeBSD crowd happy), or it does (in which case, if they're smart, they'll >make one.) Unless FreeBSD users refuse to use the Linux build under emulation, there will be no reason to "make the FreeBSD crowd happy." This is why the "portable ABI" is such a powerful concept. It turns the tables; the most advantageous route for the programmer is to write to the FreeBSD ABI and API for BOTH platforms. And since the Portable ABI would be BSD-licensed, they could distribute it with their code -- or even link it in -- without risk of GPL contamination. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 11:37:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3915B37B688; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 11:37:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12223; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 12:37:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709123023.04adf950@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 12:36:59 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , David Schwartz From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000709180613.I14455@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709004740.049f9740@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:36 AM 7/9/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: >*sigh* I had intended to keep out of this, but I must say I like your >analysis. I'd like to add that we're not really talking about Linux >vs. BSD here, we're talking about ABIs. We're not just talking about ABIs, Greg, it's APIs too. And support. And compatibility. We need native code that is supported on our platform. We do not want to be stuck running code targeted at and tailored to ANOTHER plaform, with libraries which are part of another platform, under an emulation which could be broken in the future despite our best efforts, without vendor support. Nor should we support the pernicious political agenda which comes bundled with that other platform. One of the most imporant resons to support the BSDs is that they are not part of the FSF Empire. If BSD is only valuable with Linux emulation, it effectively becomes part of Stallman's agenda and empire. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 11:47:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mout2.silyn-tek.de (mout2.silyn-tek.de [194.25.165.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9C1337BDBF for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 11:47:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from [192.168.32.33] (helo=mx1.silyn-tek.de) by mout2.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 13BM6o-0003T2-00; Sun, 09 Jul 2000 20:47:18 +0200 Received: from p3e9c1146.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([62.156.17.70] helo=neutron.cichlids.com) by mx1.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 13BM6m-0007po-00; Sun, 09 Jul 2000 20:47:16 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B57AB8C; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:48:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C606214B0C; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:47:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:47:27 +0200 To: Haikal Saadh Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My new T-Shirt... Message-ID: <20000709204727.A3144@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Haikal Saadh , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000d01bfe634$7a3450c0$77a393cb@timberwolf> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <000d01bfe634$7a3450c0$77a393cb@timberwolf>; from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com on Tue, Jul 04, 2000 at 08:52:44PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. From: alex@big.endian.de (Alexander Langer) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Haikal Saadh (wyldephyre2@yahoo.com): > ...heh heh... I was walking down the street in my FreeBSD TShirt > today, when I saw one of my Network Admin lecturers (who's a linux > head, I know for sure) going the opposite way. Lol :-) Don't know, which graphic you used for it, but with mine (I used the good-quality one, Daemon killing Tux), they only said "oh, that's nasty, poor Tux" :-) Alex --=20 cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 12:46:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ACFDE37BE3D for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 12:46:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 535 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2000 19:46:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 9 Jul 2000 19:46:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 4081 invoked by uid 211); 9 Jul 2000 19:46:06 -0000 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:16:05 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD :Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) Message-ID: <20000710011605.A4060@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708230835.04f8e930@localhost> <20000709133408.A518@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000709121442.04a06c90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709121442.04a06c90@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 12:21:51PM -0600 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test3 i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Jul 9, 2000 at 12:21:51: > I'm sorry if you don't like my writing style. If you have any > specific and CONSTRUCTVE criticisms, I'll consider them. You've had plenty already. Your problem is if people don't agree with you, you think they don't understand you. To quote you from another mail, Some of the postings addressed to me have made it clear that the posters haven't read what I've already written (or maybe I haven't been clear enough), so I've had to reiterate some points. No, you didn't have to. You were clear enough the first time. After that you've just been answering the objections by ignoring them and repeating your own mantras again and again, or by badmouthing the objectors and questioning their motives. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 13:35:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4207D37BEB7; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:35:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:35:15 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: , Subject: RE: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:35:39 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709122318.04a05100@localhost> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > 1) The non-native build works perfectly under FreeBSD. > > (In which case, > > except for OS bigotry, there is no reason to have a > > FreeBSD-native version.) > Not so. Users still won't be supported on a platform other than > the one for which the binary is targeted. They may or may not be. If the company has any interest at all in supporting FreeBSD and it can do it as easily as just saying, "We support running our Linux build under FreeBSD", then they will do that. If they have no interest in supporting FreeBSD at all, then that's just that. You can't force their interest. > Also, you are making the dangerous assumption > that the emulation is perfect and will always be so. This is not > wise. The next version might be Linux-specific. Assuming they don't support FreeBSD at all. In which case, nobody will be any worse off than if it never worked under FreeBSD. As a slight plus, the company will have a whole bunch of people complaining that they don't work under FreeBSD any more. That might generate a response. > > 2) A native build would work significantly better. (In > > which case, the only > > reason for the company not to make a native build is if it > > doesn't justify > > the improvement (in which case, they _shouldn't_ make one just > > to make the > > FreeBSD crowd happy), or it does (in which case, if they're > > smart, they'll > > make one.) > Unless FreeBSD users refuse to use the Linux build under emulation, > there will be no reason to "make the FreeBSD crowd happy." That would be an incredibly irrational thing to do. I know that I personally ignore any such customer demands that don't have technical or business merit. And if some group of people is a constant source of such bigoted or religious requests, I tell them to go take a long walk off a short pier. As an example, I constantly get asked why we don't provide more support for things like COM and ODBC. There's no technical argument why we should use such things. They're mostly not platform-independent and mostly don't do anything useful. Do you think I listen to these people? Do you think they affect our technology plans? If I present someone with a solution that works and they just refuse to use it, well, tough shit for them. On the other hand, if they have an actual technical problem and it's in my power to solve it, I'll go out of my way to make things work. The finer and finer the hairs you try to split the less these points are likely to have any relevance in the real world. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 13:47:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bishopston.net (h91.reverse.bishopston.net [24.68.200.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6F4837BF38; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:47:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jamie@bishopston.net) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by bishopston.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA79950; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 21:47:11 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from ) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 21:47:11 +0100 (BST) From: Jamie Jones Message-Id: <200007092047.VAA79950@bishopston.net> To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, davids@webmaster.com, dkelly@hiwaay.net, jamie@bishopston.net Subject: RE: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > If the version under emulation were officially supported, why wouldn't you > buy it? Is it purely for 'religious' reasons? I tend to think of running programs under the emulation API as unsupported. If it were officially supported, that would tip the scales a bit. I may be wrong, but I would trust a native version more than an emulated version, and would be much more likely to pay for something that installed "cleanly" without me having to install a whole load of Linux libraries etc. I prefer FreeBSD to Linux - that's why I'm here. I find it to be more stable, and more coherent (although I'll admit that it's been a few years since I played with Linux). I'd prefer not to install a Linux sub-system on my FreeBSD machine for the reasons I chose FreeBSD in the first place. I'd hope that there are no 'religious' reasons - if push came to shove I would run Linux programs under emulation - but I'd only feel totally confident if the program was native to my OS, especially if I'm forking out money for it. This isn't to knock the Linux emulation project - I have played with it, and it is a very good package - I'd just prefer to run things as nature intended :-) Cheers, Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 13:57:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 793D037B622; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:56:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-71-106.dialup.hiwaay.net [216.180.71.106]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id e69KusZ00514; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:56:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA96769; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:01:09 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200007091901.OAA96769@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "David Schwartz" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-reply-to: Message from "David Schwartz" of "Sun, 09 Jul 2000 01:02:09 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 14:01:09 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "David Schwartz" writes: > > > At 08:49 PM 7/7/2000, David Kelly wrote: > > > >I will not *buy* software to run > > >under emulation. I would not buy the Linux version of Applixware. I > > >will not buy a Linux version of WP8. I will not buy a Linux version of > > >Opera. Considering that Opera will not be on my FreeBSD machines then > > >its extremely unlikely to be purchased for my Macintosh. > > > Same here.... > > When and if vmware 2 goes native FreeBSD, I'll be buying it. I may > > get opera, too, but only if a native version is released. > > > > Jamie > > If the version under emulation were officially supported, why > wouldn't you buy it? Is it purely for 'religious' reasons? If the package was officially supported for FreeBSD, then I would consider it. If the vendor goes to the effort to test under FreeBSD and stand by their results then the Linux issue is no more than Yet Another Mandatory Runtime Library. I don't use FreeBSD because I enjoy BSOD-of-the-day, incompatible DLL's, incompatible-libc-version-of-the day, Linux-kernel-of-the-day, or any of the other variants of unreliable software symptoms that others seem to relish conquering in their daily use of computers. The sad thing is that many believe that situation is normal and natural. Just as many used to believe Detroit made excellent automobiles. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 13:57:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D49737B622 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:57:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 902 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2000 20:57:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 9 Jul 2000 20:57:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 4330 invoked by uid 211); 9 Jul 2000 20:57:22 -0000 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 02:27:21 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jamie Jones Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, davids@webmaster.com, dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Emulation: eg WordPerfect (was Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows)))) Message-ID: <20000710022721.A4192@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <200007092047.VAA79950@bishopston.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200007092047.VAA79950@bishopston.net>; from jamie@bishopston.net on Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 09:47:11PM +0100 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test3 i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Jones said on Jul 9, 2000 at 21:47:11: > > > If the version under emulation were officially supported, why wouldn't you > > buy it? Is it purely for 'religious' reasons? > > I tend to think of running programs under the emulation API as unsupported. > If it were officially supported, that would tip the scales a bit. I may be > wrong, but I would trust a native version more than an emulated version, and > would be much more likely to pay for something that installed "cleanly" > without me having to install a whole load of Linux libraries etc. This reminds me: Corel's WordPerfect 2000 for linux runs under wine, a project that hasn't even reached a "beta" stage of stability yet. It's got reasonably good reviews. There are apparently some performance and window-handling issues which seem to be wine-related, but nothing show-stopping, it seems, though I haven't tried it myself. And nobody is suggesting that Corel's level of support for the linux version will be less because it runs on wine, or that corporate support for linux is becoming undermined because of wine. So why worry about running linux binaries under FreeBSD, something which works an order of magnitude better than wine? If one can get companies to support that officially, that certainly looks like a big gain to me. Aiming to remove linux compatibility is not only unrealistic but extremely undesirable. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 14: 6:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bishopston.net (h91.reverse.bishopston.net [24.68.200.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D3237BF55; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:06:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jamie@bishopston.net) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by bishopston.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA97669; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 22:06:34 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from ) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 22:06:34 +0100 (BST) From: Jamie Jones Message-Id: <200007092106.WAA97669@bishopston.net> To: jamie@bishopston.net, rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in Subject: Re: Emulation: eg WordPerfect (was Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows)))) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, davids@webmaster.com, dkelly@hiwaay.net In-Reply-To: <20000710022721.A4192@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So why worry about running linux binaries under FreeBSD, something > which works an order of magnitude better than wine? If one can get > companies to support that officially, that certainly looks like a big > gain to me. Aiming to remove linux compatibility is not only > unrealistic but extremely undesirable. If the product is officially supported, then that is a big plus. If a product *is* supported under emulation completely, wouldn't it be easier for the company to release a FreeBSD version too, so that they don't end up supporting the emulator in the process ? :-) Anyway, although you aren't actually impying this, I'd just like to point out that I'm *not* in favour of removing the Linux emulation - my point is that I'd be more likely to part cash for a native version than the Linux version. Cheers, Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 14:31: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3483B37C1E8; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:31:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA41639; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:31:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Thomas M. Sommers" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:33:21 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20000709002932.04980100@localhost> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 14:31:24 -0700 Message-ID: <41625.963178284@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Again, you appear to be intentionally misconstruing or ignoring what > I've said in earlier messages. I'm starting to get annoyed with your continual references to earlier messages of yours in contexts which suggest that gems of wisdom or other easily understandable and logical points of yours lie buried in the archives and can be simply dropped in place of further logical argument on your part now. That's complete bovine exhaust and it won't fly here. Your past messages have constituted nothing more than a shabbily-woven skein of dubious logic, unsubstantiated claims and wild predictions masquerading as a voice of experience and I don't see how referring to them helps advance your claims in any way. Actually misconstruing or ignoring your previous points could, in fact, only aid in supporting your arguments given that there's no place to go but up from the position you're arguing from. You're like some guy in dark glasses swinging a white cane around and calling everyone else in the room blind. It's a very puzzling spectacle and I'm sure psychologists have a word for your condition which is hard to pronounce. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 14:41:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06B0A37B669; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:41:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA56252; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:41:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:40:03 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20000709003340.049d0930@localhost> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 14:41:24 -0700 Message-ID: <56235.963178884@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > No; it appears to be your crusade to quash some valuable insights. Nope, that can't be it. I don't see any valuable insights in this discussion. > My predictions have been accurate in the past and are being fulfilled > here as well. And my efforts to date in the BSD world have been > quite effective. Therefore, I daresay I have quite a bit of currency. > Why are you attempting to undermine it? You may daresay this, but I do not. I haven't seen any such accuracy demonstrated by your predictions and there's a certain hand gesture I cannot draw here which adequately sums up your efforts to date in the BSD world. So you put on a few panels and wrote an article or two - big, fat, hairy deal! I've done the same countless times and no longer even make any special note of it unless the article in question appears in the Wall Street Journal or Time Magazine or something. As to panels, anybody can put together a panel and even get some pretty good people on it. A panel is what you do when you and a bunch of other people don't feel like really working hard on a talk. ;-) Am I saying such work is valueless? Of course not, or I would not do it myself. I'm simply saying that you radically over-estimate the value of your currency if you think you can spend your $10 so profligately now on $100 arguments. > Er, Jordan, *now* who's advocating being Quixotic? Such an effort > requires a team, as I can't exactly afford to quit putting food on the > table in order to do it alone. By arguing against the concept you are > discouraging people from joining that effort and are thus sabotaging it I can only hope so - it's a damn stupid idea and I'll be happy to say that to anyone who asks. I'm somehow evil if I have the temerity to call a spade a spade? Get off your high horse, Brett, and stop assuming that every idea you have is somehow enobled to the point of automatic correctness just because it passed through your exalted brain on the way to your fingertips. I can only repeat the same advice again, and it's been good general advice to the population at large for as long as I can remember: If you really want to prove a point that badly, go do exactly as I said and write it yourself. I'm sure a bright boy like you can figure out some way to put food on the table and do something of a substantive technical nature at the same time since so many others in so many open source projects have done exactly that, time and again. You're just ducking and weaving all over the place so much when it comes to "put up or shut up" here that it's a wonder you're not motion-sick by now. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 15:28:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60DC637B9E6; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:28:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA96188; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:28:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Jamie Jones Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, davids@webmaster.com, dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Emulation: eg WordPerfect (was Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows)))) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:06:34 BST." <200007092106.WAA97669@bishopston.net> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 15:28:03 -0700 Message-ID: <96185.963181683@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If the product is officially supported, then that is a big plus. If a > product *is* supported under emulation completely, wouldn't it be easier > for the company to release a FreeBSD version too, so that they don't end > up supporting the emulator in the process ? :-) Sadly not, and for two important reasons: 1. The company is not really supporting the Linux compatability code, they're expecting us to do so and have communicated such requests to us in the past, so I'm not merely speculating about this. 2. If they do a FreeBSD version, and to any reasonable standard of "commercial correctness", they also have to deploy FreeBSD in the development, QA and support organizations so that the FreeBSD version can be developed, tested and, once shipping, supported in the field. I've had more than one ISV tell me, in response to my assertion that a native FreeBSD version would not be hard for them to do since FreeBSD is a pretty standard platform to port to and all that, that porting is the LEAST of their worries. It's having to add yet another platform to their development, testing and support structures that incurs the real expense in internal training and hours invested. I can really empathise with point #2, even though I hate it working against me, since I used to work for Lotus and I had to work on projects like porting AmiPro and NOTES to everything from SCO Open Deathtrap to AIX. Every time we had to add another Unix platform to our porting list, you could just hear the collective groans go up. It cost us uncountable weeks to cope with each new operating systems' hardware and installation requirements, even when they were total no-brainers (which they almost never were), since there's still a process to go through. Then we had to learn the quirks of each OS's development environment and the, um, unique places where things were installed. Then we could actually get to the point of copying our software over and typing that first "make", just to enjoy the flood of errors which resulted. At some stage, after many hours of sweat and caffeine absorption, we even got our first successful compile and link, after which the REAL work began in making sure everything actually worked, from the opening screen to the most obscure dialog box. Do you know how much work that is or how hard it is to convince someone in the project management group that they should even do such a thing? As Wolfman Jack used to say: "I been there, I know." - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 16:17:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1029337B90E for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:17:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@nwlink.com) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA14733 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:29:33 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: The Great Trademark Debate Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Once upon a time in the land of -chat there was a great debate regarding the dire consequences of Walunt Creek owning the FreeBSD trademark. It occured to an enterprising individual that this could hamper the commercial acceptance of FreeBSD and therefore be the end of the OS and the community. In the midst of the great trademark debate, with conspicous coincidence, the enterprising individual happened upon a business opportunity. This particular opportunity hinged precariously on the use of the FreeBSD trademark. The debate heightened owing to the consequences faced by our enterpriser. It seems that nothing ever became of this great and terrible issue of Walnut Creek owning the Trademark. It seems that once the great debate vanished, so did the enterpriser's contempory opportunity. We have now before us the great emulation debate. Once again we have a contempory issue hinged on the discourse of the debate, the FreeBSD ABI. Once again it is the same individual. Conspicous coincidence? More like modus operandi! Raise an issue. Create a need in the midst of the issue as a rhetorical device. Point to the contrived need in support of your argument. Classical Glass 101. We are not stupid. We have memories that last longer than one of these threads. (Which can be quite long I might add.) Brett just claimed in exchange with Jordan that his predictions come true. That might convince a few who haven't much of a basis for evaluating his claims. It doesn't convince me. My point in writing this message is not to enter into debate with Mr. Glass though I know that is inevitable. My point is to endear those who have not been reading Mr. Glass over a period of time to know that he has a history of being a serious pain in the ass. I assert that he adds little to the discourse with his continual bleating. I have heard it for three years now. In three years FreeBSD continues to move forward. The OS continues to advance. We have more commerical acceptance than ever. Or did I misread the news that BSDi and FreeBSD are getting married? Did I misread that Apple is using huge chunks of FreeBSD in Darwin. Everything in the FreeBSD camp gets better and better. Brett's warnings continue to get more strident. He is just plain wrong. His efforts do more to deconstruct FreeBSD's success than to help it. (at least in the mailing list forums) Unfortunately, folks in the community and (it appears) Jordan especially must commit large numbers of man-hours performing damage control after Brett's tirades. Yea, if one is a naysayer then eventually history will give you a chance to be right. I am sure we will all hear about it the day that one of Brett's warnings proves out. But until then there are a great many successes to be had. And after that day life goes on. Please consider what I have said before you give Mr. Glass and his warnings credibility. They are exciting. They are not useful. Take care not to get excited without cause. Sincerly, Jason C. Wells (Wondering why he wrote so much when he really just wants to say, "Shut the hell up already! For fuck's sake. What the fuck is your fucking problem?" I guess the internet makes folks pedantic.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 19:17:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0446F37C37D; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 19:17:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA22140; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 19:17:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 19:17:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: Ignacio Cristerna , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707102444.047ab100@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > Me too! Who out there who is willing to help mount an effort to > "invade" the Linux space by doing a FreeBSD ABI (application binary > interface) for Linux? I will! Together we can conquer the barbarians and retake the land of ISV which is rightfully ours! Just, uh, you go first, I'll cover you from behind in case they sneak up from the rear. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 19:54:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD73A37B6D1; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 19:54:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA26183; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 19:54:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 19:54:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Brett Glass (Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) ) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708185857.04eda100@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 8 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > >The FreeBSD ABI was your idea, though I predict it was merely a rhetorical > >device. You develop it! > > As if Jordan developed everything alone.... Oh, for pity's sake, Brett, what is your obsession with Jordan? I don't know how much contribution jkh actually had to the linuxulator development, but I'm certain he didn't do it by saying "you over there, write this code because I think it would be a good thing, and it's time you showed your support for FreeBSD by working on it" I'm getting mighty sick of your tactic of popping up on the mailing lists every few months, arguing loudly at everyone in sight that "FreeBSD must do X if it is to survive, unfortunately I can't/won't actually do any of the work myself but trust me, it's for your own good and besides, you should all offer me respect and gratitude because I work so damn hard for FreeBSD in other ways" You seem to be a member of a class of FreeBSD mailing list participators who believes that they have the right to direct the people who actually do the work on FreeBSD, without having gained the respect of your peers by actually providing something of greater value to earn that respect. People who have actually done this sometimes find they *can* convince other people to do work for them based on that mutual respect, but it doesn't come for free. FreeBSD is a meritocracy, and repeatedly indulging in behaviour which makes your intended target audience think you're a steam-powered idiot is an unproductive strategy at best. You do realise that by now you've managed to alienate the majority of FreeBSD developers to the point where they automatically stamp everything emerging from the mouth of Brett Glass under 'W' for Waste of time, don't you? Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 21: 8:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86E9337B697; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 21:08:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15678; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 22:08:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709220353.04a82610@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:08:22 -0600 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass Subject: Conquering the Land of ISV (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: Ignacio Cristerna , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707102444.047ab100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:17 PM 7/9/2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: >I will! Together we can conquer the barbarians and retake the land of ISV >which is rightfully ours! Just, uh, you go first, I'll cover you from >behind in case they sneak up from the rear. What is it that they say: You can recognize the pioneers, because they're the ones with the arrows in their backs? ;-) Seriously, I do seem to be getting shot in the back an awful lot in this forum. I have some replies to make, especially to some of the messages Jordan has written, but they'll have to wait until tomorrow. I have a deadline tonight. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 21:32:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D24DB37B706; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 21:32:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 21:31:51 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Jamie Jones" Cc: , Subject: RE: Emulation: eg WordPerfect (was Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows)))) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 21:32:14 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <200007092106.WAA97669@bishopston.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > So why worry about running linux binaries under FreeBSD, something > > which works an order of magnitude better than wine? If one can get > > companies to support that officially, that certainly looks like a big > > gain to me. Aiming to remove linux compatibility is not only > > unrealistic but extremely undesirable. > If the product is officially supported, then that is a big plus. If a > product *is* supported under emulation completely, wouldn't it be easier > for the company to release a FreeBSD version too, so that they don't end > up supporting the emulator in the process ? :-) I tend to agree. I would imagine that officially supporting a version that runs under emulation would tend to be used as a stopgap measure. It's just too unprofessional and likely to be difficult to maintain. > Anyway, although you aren't actually impying this, I'd just like to point > out that I'm *not* in favour of removing the Linux emulation - my point is > that I'd be more likely to part cash for a native version than the Linux > version. Fair enough. A person trying to sell me a version to run under emulation would have to convince me of the stability and reliability of more pieces. The last time I ported a major project that compiled under Linux to FreeBSD, the vast majority of the work was dealing with missing functions like 'nanosleep' and 'poll'. Now that those functions exist, it's hard for me to imagine what difficulties could be encountered porting a program that works under Linux to FreeBSD. Even if you used real Linux-isms like details about proc, kernel modules, or something like that, you'd have to have a way to do those things on other OSes. Odds are one of those methods would work with minimal fuss under FreeBSD. The only issues I see are those related to stocking another product, supporting another platform, compiling more builds, and so on. I don't think there are technical issues left. (Thus, on to Jordan's post): > 2. If they do a FreeBSD version, and to any reasonable standard of > "commercial correctness", they also have to deploy FreeBSD in > the development, QA and support organizations so that the FreeBSD > version can be developed, tested and, once shipping, supported in the > field. I've had more than one ISV tell me, in response to my > assertion that a native FreeBSD version would not be hard for them > to do since FreeBSD is a pretty standard platform to port to and > all that, that porting is the LEAST of their worries. It's having > to add yet another platform to their development, testing and > support structures that incurs the real expense in internal > training and hours invested. > - Jordan If that's the issue, then nothing that you can do to FreeBSD technically will make any difference. Emulator, no emulator, portable ABI, or not -- it's purely a matter of whether there's enough people who want to run FreeBSD to justify the expense. If that's the major problem, then the solution is popularity and noise. The company I work for currently maintains _three_ FreeBSD builds of our products, one for FreeBSD2, one for FreeBSD3, one one for FreeBSD4. We're about to drop the FreeBSD2 build because it stopped working. That means we have to build and test two or three more versions before each release. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 22: 7: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from epsilon.lucida.qc.ca (epsilon.lucida.qc.ca [216.95.146.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C865937C492 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 22:06:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matt@ARPA.MAIL.NET) Received: (qmail 42074 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Jul 2000 05:06:59 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 10 Jul 2000 05:06:59 -0000 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:06:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Matt Heckaman X-Sender: matt@epsilon.lucida.qc.ca To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Conquering the Land of ISV (Was: No port of Opera?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709220353.04a82610@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Rating: localhost 1.6.2 0/1000/N Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: [cc list trimmed] ... : Seriously, I do seem to be getting shot in the back an awful lot in : this forum. I have some replies to make, especially to some of the : messages Jordan has written, but they'll have to wait until tomorrow. : I have a deadline tonight. You can't be getting shot in the back in a debate that you're willfully taking part in. That goes for all of you. I like the emulator, it has solved nearly every one of my "damn I wish I could run X in FreeBSD" problems to date. Would I PAY for a product to run under emulation? Not on your life. Do I expect SUPPORT for a product under emulation? Nope. I do buy software native to FreeBSD though, (codeforge being a good example) and I would love a native port of xyz as much as anyone. Such is life. Its high time we deal with that reality AT THE MOMENT because right now there's not much we can do about it. Maybe when the whole attitude of "{Free,Net,Open}BSD, is that a variant of Linux?" changes, as well as developers getting very fed up with the inconsistencies that make their life a living nightmare, THEN we may get our wishes. I see both sides of your argument, and I've hesitated to get involved until now, but this has degraded far below what the real issues are. I would suggest to all involved that it may be best to wage war on the problem, not the personal feelings involved. Can we please end this god awful thread? : --Brett * Matt Heckaman - mailto:matt@lucida.qc.ca http://www.lucida.qc.ca/ * * GPG fingerprint - A9BC F3A8 278E 22F2 9BDA BFCF 74C3 2D31 C035 5390 * -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.1 (FreeBSD) Comment: http://www.lucida.qc.ca/pgp iD8DBQE5aVnydMMtMcA1U5ARAtNzAJ44A1NuDGYj7byGhmJez4IAz5zL+QCgg8Wr galqM1hwL4ZzPgtBau14cc0= =690X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 9 23: 3:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB66137B7D7; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:03:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from galt@inconnu.isu.edu) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22225; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:03:53 -0600 Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:03:53 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Conquering the Land of ISV (Was: No port of Opera?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709220353.04a82610@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks for the advance notice, Brett: pico .procmailrc :0: * ^From: Brett Glass * /dev/null much better :) On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > this forum. I have some replies to make, especially to some of the > messages Jordan has written, but they'll have to wait until tomorrow. > I have a deadline tonight. > > --Brett > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Sacred cows make the best burgers Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who!!! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 10 0: 1: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B91237B671 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:01:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA73023; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:01:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Great Trademark Debate References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Jul 2000 09:01:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells"'s message of "Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:29:33 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" writes: > (Wondering why he wrote so much when he really just wants to say, "Shut > the hell up already! For fuck's sake. What the fuck is your fucking > problem?" I guess the internet makes folks pedantic.) I tried that once (though not in so many words), but got my fingers smacked by Jordan for using Bad Language on the lists :) I've had Brett killfiled ever since. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 10 0: 8:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B1D37B76C; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:08:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA73055; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:08:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Marius Bendiksen , Adam , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. References: <20000709165702.V25571@fw.wintelcom.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Jul 2000 09:08:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: Alfred Perlstein's message of "Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:57:03 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moving from -arch to -chat] Alfred Perlstein writes: > * Marius Bendiksen [000709 16:54] wrote: > > Thing is; disabling kernel modules will avail you little, as an > > illegitimate user can still use the memory devices to access physical > > memory, and thus binary patch a live kernel. This is hard, but it can, and > > has been done. Eivind mentioned one particular case with a person who > > binary-patched the kernel of an old Unix to bypass the 14 character file > > name length limitation without severing the uptime. > I owe that person a beer. He's a committer (tegge@freebsd.org). The OS in question, IIRC, was DolphinOS on an ND UniLine 8820 (colloquially known as Flipper). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 10 0:20: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12D8337BC2B; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:19:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e6A7JuL19973; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:19:56 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/boot/common commands.c Message-ID: <20000710001956.D25571@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200007100633.XAA59928@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200007100633.XAA59928@freefall.freebsd.org>; from kris@FreeBSD.org on Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 11:33:56PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Kris Kennaway [000709 23:34] wrote: > kris 2000/07/09 23:33:56 PDT > > Modified files: > sys/boot/common commands.c > Log: > Don't call printf with no format string. This is technically a security > vulnerability and could in principle be used to upload a new kernel from the > bootloader :-) These two strings walk into a bar and sit down. The bartender says, "So what'll it be?" The first string says, "I think I'll have a beer quag fulk boorg jdk^CjfdLk jk3s d#f67howe%^U r89nvy~~owmc63^Dz x.xvcu" "Please excuse my friend," the second string says, "He isn't null-terminated." -- From the RHF archives as selected by Brad Templeton, Maddi Hausmann and Jim Griffith. This newsgroup posts former jokes from the newsgroup rec.humor.funny. Visit http://www.netfunny.com/rhf to browse the RHF pages and archives on the web. har har har... *runs away* -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 10 0:23:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B462A37BC7F for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:23:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e6A7Nfh20141; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:23:41 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Marius Bendiksen , Adam , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: making the snoop device loadable. Message-ID: <20000710002341.E25571@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000709165702.V25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 09:08:43AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Dag-Erling Smorgrav [000710 00:08] wrote: > [moving from -arch to -chat] > > Alfred Perlstein writes: > > * Marius Bendiksen [000709 16:54] wrote: > > > Thing is; disabling kernel modules will avail you little, as an > > > illegitimate user can still use the memory devices to access physical > > > memory, and thus binary patch a live kernel. This is hard, but it can, and > > > has been done. Eivind mentioned one particular case with a person who > > > binary-patched the kernel of an old Unix to bypass the 14 character file > > > name length limitation without severing the uptime. > > I owe that person a beer. > > He's a committer (tegge@freebsd.org). The OS in question, IIRC, was > DolphinOS on an ND UniLine 8820 (colloquially known as Flipper). Ah that makes sense, Tor Egge is truly fearsome. :) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 10 7:46:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A344837B5E2; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 07:46:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA189130; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:46:19 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709220353.04a82610@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707102444.047ab100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000709220353.04a82610@localhost> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:47:10 -0400 To: Brett Glass , Kris Kennaway From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Conquering the Land of ISV (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: Ignacio Cristerna , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:08 PM -0600 7/9/00, Brett Glass wrote: >Seriously, I do seem to be getting shot in the back an awful >lot in this forum. I have some replies to make, especially to >some of the messages Jordan has written, but they'll have to >wait until tomorrow. I have a deadline tonight. I think it would be more intelligent to just shut up already. How many thousand messages have to go by before the clue-light turns on in your head? If you honestly believe that you have a great idea with this freebsd-emulator for linux, then write it. Otherwise, drop the topic. I think you're also deluding yourself by thinking this is a "Brett Glass vs Jordan" issue. As near as I can tell, it's "Brett Glass tilting at windmills all by himself" issue. It is quite possible that there are a lot of people here who agree with you. If THAT is true, then you should have a lot of people to help you implement this freebsd-emulator for linux, and it will be all that much the easier to prove your point. Me, I'm sympathetic to the IDEA of a freebsd-emulator, but I do not really believe it is practical. It's like saying the world will see a lot more Amiga programs if someone would just write an Win32 emulator for AmigaOS. If someone WANTS to write for the Win32 market, then why would they use some foreign API which merely adds another layer where something can go wrong? --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 10 8:15: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD13737B52C for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:15:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: from [10.0.0.20] (spider.interactplus.com [216.180.46.102]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id e6AFExZ11058 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:14:59 -0500 (CDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: dkelly@hiwaay.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:14:56 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: David Kelly Subject: One of my favorite comic strips Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org One of my favorite comic online strips has made its way into syndication. Thought this group might appreciate this strip: http://www.comicspage.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?f=20000701cshln-a.gif -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ======================================================================== Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 10 8:21: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F52C37B8CD for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:21:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: from [10.0.0.20] (spider.interactplus.com [216.180.46.102]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id e6AFL0Z12841 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:21:00 -0500 (CDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: dkelly@hiwaay.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:20:56 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: David Kelly Subject: Ask Dr. Science Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Why can't Microsoft remove their browser from their products, instead of just hiding it somewhere in Windows?" http://www.drscience.com/vault/980318.htm -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ======================================================================== Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 10 9:40:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web2.sea.nwserv.com (web2.sea.nwserv.com [216.145.16.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D219637B563 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:40:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from spatula@spatula.net) Received: from localhost (spatula@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by web2.sea.nwserv.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA65437 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:40:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from spatula@spatula.net) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:40:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Nick Johnson X-Sender: spatula@web2.sea.nwserv.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: anyone experienced with pair.com? Message-ID: X-image-url: http://www.spatula.net/pix/yuck.jpg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Envelope-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm in the unfortunate position of needing to acquire new hosting for 4 domains. In my searching, I've turned up pair.com as a viable option (they use FreeBSD exclusively and offer the other services I require). Has anyone had any experience with these guys, good or bad? I'd really like to hear from real people before making a decision. Nick -- "[People's] causal reasoning is about the same as that of a chimpanzee or a fox." -- Paul Churchland My PGP public key: http://www.spatula.net/pubkey.txt Nick Johnson, version 1.5 http://www.spatula.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 10 9:44: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176F237B58D for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:43:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@nwlink.com) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA19250; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:55:36 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Great Trademark Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10 Jul 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Jason C. Wells" writes: > > (Wondering why he wrote so much when he really just wants to say, "Shut > > the hell up already! > I tried that once (though not in so many words), but got my fingers > smacked by Jordan for using Bad Language on the lists :) I've had > Brett killfiled ever since. I couldn't express my _true_ emotions without using such language. That must be the sailor in me. :) When I moved my email activities to my ISP I redid my filters. I thought I would try it once more. Anyway, the regrettable part is that if all of the detractors from Brett just don't reply, then his voice wins. Impressionable people in FreeBSD land will start thinking like he thinks. It's like a Ghengis Khan story (legend perhaps) where he perpetually charges the gates of a sieged city. Eventually, the city generals tire of always racing to close the gates and they stop doing so. Khan rolls right in unopposed. I don't know what I will do. I really don't have time to fight Brett. Later, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 10 14:23:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.creteseal.com (d83b0def.dsl.flashcom.net [216.59.13.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 873BC37BC6F for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:23:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tcoronado@creteseal.com) Received: from localhost (tcoronado@localhost) by proxy.creteseal.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13005; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:22:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: proxy.creteseal.com: tcoronado owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:22:58 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Nick Johnson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: anyone experienced with pair.com? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have helped a client set up his hosting with pair networks, no problems at all with setting up his website and daily statistics...setting up fetchmail to retrieve and sort a large volume of mailwas a breeze, and I understand that a mailing list and a few autoresponse boxes were set up rather quickly. Highly recommended. Tony. On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Nick Johnson wrote: > I'm in the unfortunate position of needing to acquire new hosting for 4 > domains. In my searching, I've turned up pair.com as a viable option > (they use FreeBSD exclusively and offer the other services I > require). Has anyone had any experience with these guys, good or > bad? I'd really like to hear from real people before making a decision. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 10 16:29:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF9AB37BD17; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 16:29:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com ([208.187.122.225]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA25578; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:28:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <396752A6.ED719837@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:11:18 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Preston S. Wiley" , Brett Glass , David Scheidt , Kris Kennaway , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) References: <200007072132.OAA13600@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > All of this would be a waste of effort compared to writing a *BSD* emulator > > > that would run on many platforms and get us more native ports. Making a > > > better Linux emulator is counterproductive. The better Linux emulation is > > > on BSD, the less likely it is that FreeBSD will get native ports of key > > > applications. > > > > Without Linux compatibility, BSD wouldn't have enough of a desktop user > > base for a company to even consider a native BSD port. The Linux > > compatibility was created to draw in users. (i.e. BSD can do everything > > Linux can, including run its binaries, plus this and this and this) > > The more users BSD has, the more likely there will be a native BSD port. > > Given this theory, someone should be going balls-to-the-wall > on SCO Xenix and UNIX and Solaris x86 emulations, even if the > Linux emulation is broken in the process... You're right, except none of the above have ANY marketing momentum at this time. SCO UNIX and Solaris x86 compatibility would get us some kick-ass server apps, though. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 10 17:52:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web1204.mail.yahoo.com (web1204.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F1D6437B985 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:52:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 13417 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Jul 2000 00:52:16 -0000 Message-ID: <20000711005216.13416.qmail@web1204.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [202.138.40.131] by web1204.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:52:16 PDT Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:52:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Haikal Saadh Subject: Re: My new T-Shirt... To: Alexander Langer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mine was just the simple classic freebsd tshirt, with the deamon exiting the CD. --- Alexander Langer wrote: > Thus spake Haikal Saadh (wyldephyre2@yahoo.com): > > > ...heh heh... I was walking down the street in my > FreeBSD TShirt > > today, when I saw one of my Network Admin > lecturers (who's a linux > > head, I know for sure) going the opposite way. > > Lol :-) > > Don't know, which graphic you used for it, but with > mine (I used the > good-quality one, Daemon killing Tux), they only > said "oh, that's > nasty, poor Tux" :-) > > Alex > -- > cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 10 20:43:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 24CB137BBFC for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:43:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 396 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2000 03:43:08 -0000 Received: from du66.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.66) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 11 Jul 2000 03:43:08 -0000 Message-ID: <396A97AC.CEB9CBE9@mail.ptd.net> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:42:36 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706222258.046d9c00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105237.0448ca90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708162010.050e5da0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000709002932.04980100@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 12:17 AM 7/9/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > >So the absence of Linux binary support will not necessarily mean more > >native ports, and will mean that programs that don't have native ports > >will not run. Which means fewer applications for FreeBSD. Which means > >fewer users for FreeBSD. Which means fewer native ports for FreeBSD. > >... > > Again, you appear to be intentionally misconstruing or ignoring what > I've said in earlier messages. I'm afraid that I can't take the time > to educate you about strategies and tactics if you simply can't (or > won't) get it. No, I'm not. I haven't mentioned your proposed FreeBSD emulation for Linux (if that's what you mean by ignoring your posts) because I was questioning your premise (and because it makes no sense). > >But these market forces will probably still not be strong enough to > >produce native ports. > > Yet again you ignore what I've written. If developers see a common API > and ABI which lets them develop for all of the many Linux distros AND > FreeBSD, they will jump at the chance to use it. They see one now; if they write for Linux, it will run on FreeBSD (mostly). If vendors are presented with the choice of writing for a large audience (Linux) and having a small audience (FreeBSD) be able to use the product under emulation, or writing for a small audience and having the large audience be able to run under emulation, which will they choose? If programs running under emulation are as bad as you say (not suitable for "mission-critical" uses), they would be fools to do as you suggest. If emulation is not as bad as you say, then it just doesn't matter that they now write for Linux and not FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 10 20:50:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5471637BECF for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 19949 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2000 03:50:09 -0000 Received: from du66.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.66) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 11 Jul 2000 03:50:09 -0000 Message-ID: <396A9952.2B9851D9@mail.ptd.net> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:49:38 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A fortune(6) candidate (was: No port of Opera?) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190153.04838520@localhost> <53082.962927902@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> <53082.962927902@localhost> <20000706174440.A8752@sofia.csl.sri.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190153.04838520@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201432.04823970@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > But some in the Linux camp are likely to > mistakenly believe that emulation is good for FreeBSD, just as > some here do. And these people may say, "Look! They're emulating us! > We've got to stop that!" If this occurs, they may try to make emulation > difficult -- perhaps via patents, perhaps via tightening the > licensing, or perhaps by making the API a moving target (a la > Microsoft). In any event, as long as FreeBSD relies upon emulation > to run key apps, it's a real risk. If this is a real threat, then it is also a threat to a FreeBSD emulator running on Linux. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 10 20:50:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ABA3637BF49 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:50:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 20227 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2000 03:50:16 -0000 Received: from du66.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.66) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 11 Jul 2000 03:50:16 -0000 Message-ID: <396A0A0B.E5D953B4@mail.ptd.net> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:38:19 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schwartz Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > > > But these market forces will probably still not be strong enough to > > produce native ports. > > > In a previous post you gave two reasons for considering Linux versions > > unsuitable: 1) lack of support, and 2) lack of performance/quality. > > > 1) If a vendor can't or won't provide resources to support Linux > > versions on FreeBSD, it almost certainly can't or won't provide the much > > greater resources to produce a native FreeBSD port. > > The really depends upon the resources/reward ratio. In many cases, it's a > lot easier to make a FreeBSD native version than try to get everything to > work right under emulation. > > The support headaches are approximately the same either way, at least in my > experience. If you're going to officially endorse the use of your Linux > build under FreeBSD, you're going to have to support it. > > > 2) If a particular Linux binary doesn't run well enough on FreeBSD, then > > the vendor's decision to make a native port will be the same regardless > > of the existence of Linux binary support. If the binary does run well > > enough, it doesn't really matter that it is not native; it gets the job > > done. Of course a native version would be nice, but it would not be > > necessary. > > What would happen in that case is that the vendor would be in a troubling > situation. They'd either have to rescind FreeBSD support (and then refund > money to FreeBSD customers and remove a platform from their support list) or > make a native build. I know that if my company were faced with that problem, > we'd make a native build in a second. (Of course, we already have one, but > that's not the point.) I was, for the purposes of argument, accepting Mr. Glass's assumption that the vendor did not support running the Linux binary on FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 10 22:26:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vulcan.addy.com (vulcan.addy.com [208.11.142.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 901AD37BCB7 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:26:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by vulcan.addy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA35307; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:26:28 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200007110526.BAA35307@vulcan.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Nick Johnson" , "tcoronado@creteseal.com" Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:26:21 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: anyone experienced with pair.com? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:22:58 -0700 (PDT), tcoronado@creteseal.com wrote: >> I'm in the unfortunate position of needing to acquire new hosting for 4 >> domains. In my searching, I've turned up pair.com as a viable option >> (they use FreeBSD exclusively and offer the other services I >> require). Has anyone had any experience with these guys, good or >> bad? I'd really like to hear from real people before making a decision. I used them once and had some problems. Can't even remember anymore what it was. Take a look at addy.com I have had them extensively for YEARS. Can't remember ever having any major problems with them. .. and yes they use FreeBSD. I always make it a point to seek out ISPs and web providers who use FreeBSD. francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 11 10:48:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from njord.bart.nl (njord.bart.nl [194.158.170.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3336F37BB3A; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:48:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (daemon.ninth-circle.org [195.38.216.226]) by njord.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e6BHmDD18397; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:48:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA00794; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:48:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:48:14 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Cc: David Schwartz , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Message-ID: <20000711194814.W86887@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709004740.049f9740@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000709122318.04a05100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709122318.04a05100@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 12:29:53PM -0600 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -On [20000709 20:38], Brett Glass (brett@lariat.org) wrote: >At 02:11 AM 7/9/2000, David Schwartz wrote: > >> While I think that this could potentially happen, I don't think it's >>inevitable. A lot hinges on how vocal and visible the FreeBSD crowd is. > >The FreeBSD crowd isn't nearly vocal enough! In fact, certain people seem >to advocate AGAINST advocacy. That we ask you to shut up doesn't mean we are against advocating FreeBSD. I personally asked you a few times to please shut up, and I don't say we should stop advocating against FreeBSD. Hell, I nagged at Highpoint Tech till they put a button on their frontpage. And that's what I meant. Don't start asking for help and whatnot, just do it and when you got something, THEN come back. -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Might makes right... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 11 16:47:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D04537B5E1; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:47:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA82353; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:45:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Marcel Moolenaar Cc: Adrian Chadd , wilko@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: introducing myself... References: <20000711081813.D80764@lucifer.bart.nl> <20000711171557.A7557@ywing.creative.net.au> <20000711202907.A1457@freebie.demon.nl> <20000711214734.A8589@ywing.creative.net.au> <396B7D77.97666CC1@cup.hp.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 12 Jul 2000 01:45:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: Marcel Moolenaar's message of "Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:03:03 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marcel Moolenaar writes: > Wooden shoes can only be matches by 2 things: orange hair *and* an > orange t-shirt... and the national flag on your cheek... 3 things: > orange hair, an orange t-shirt and the national flag on your sheek... > and at least knowing the right words in the first couplet of our > national anthem... 4 things....... Ah, the famous Dutch Inquisition? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 11 16:54:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6632137BA5C; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:54:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcel@cup.hp.com) Received: from adlmail.cup.hp.com (adlmail.cup.hp.com [15.0.100.30]) by palrel1.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144DABA7; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cup.hp.com (gauss.cup.hp.com [15.28.97.152]) by adlmail.cup.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.9.3 SMKit7.02) with ESMTP id QAA19198; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <396BB31D.2AD00A1F@cup.hp.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:51:57 -0700 From: Marcel Moolenaar Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Adrian Chadd , wilko@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: introducing myself... References: <20000711081813.D80764@lucifer.bart.nl> <20000711171557.A7557@ywing.creative.net.au> <20000711202907.A1457@freebie.demon.nl> <20000711214734.A8589@ywing.creative.net.au> <396B7D77.97666CC1@cup.hp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Marcel Moolenaar writes: > > Wooden shoes can only be matches by 2 things: orange hair *and* an > > orange t-shirt... and the national flag on your cheek... 3 things: > > orange hair, an orange t-shirt and the national flag on your sheek... > > and at least knowing the right words in the first couplet of our > > national anthem... 4 things....... > > Ah, the famous Dutch Inquisition? Nobody expects the Dutch Inquisition... :-) -- Marcel Moolenaar mail: marcel@cup.hp.com / marcel@FreeBSD.org tel: (408) 447-4222 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 11 18:17:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A01B37BA2E; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:17:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA00669; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:16:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA8GaWob; Tue Jul 11 18:16:23 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA18556; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:16:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007120116.SAA18556@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:16:51 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), pwiley@cadabra.com (Preston S. Wiley), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), dscheidt@enteract.com (David Scheidt), kris@FreeBSD.ORG (Kris Kennaway), narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi), dann@greycat.com (Dann Lunsford), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <396752A6.ED719837@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Jul 08, 2000 10:11:18 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Without Linux compatibility, BSD wouldn't have enough of a desktop user > > > base for a company to even consider a native BSD port. The Linux > > > compatibility was created to draw in users. (i.e. BSD can do everything > > > Linux can, including run its binaries, plus this and this and this) > > > The more users BSD has, the more likely there will be a native BSD port. > > > > Given this theory, someone should be going balls-to-the-wall > > on SCO Xenix and UNIX and Solaris x86 emulations, even if the > > Linux emulation is broken in the process... > > You're right, except none of the above have ANY marketing momentum at this > time. SCO UNIX and Solaris x86 compatibility would get us some kick-ass > server apps, though. Given this theory, someone should be going balls-to-the-wall on Windows 2000 emulation, even if the SCO Xenix and UNIX, Solaris x86 emulation, and Linux emulation are broken in the process... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 11 18:20:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 69EB137BAB3 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:20:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 6135 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2000 01:20:10 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 12 Jul 2000 01:20:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 32267 invoked by uid 211); 12 Jul 2000 01:20:07 -0000 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 06:50:07 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Wes Peters , "Preston S. Wiley" , Brett Glass , David Scheidt , Kris Kennaway , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Message-ID: <20000712065007.A32166@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <396752A6.ED719837@softweyr.com> <200007120116.SAA18556@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200007120116.SAA18556@usr06.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 01:16:51AM +0000 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Jul 12, 2000 at 01:16:51: > > > > Without Linux compatibility, BSD wouldn't have enough of a desktop user > > > > base for a company to even consider a native BSD port. The Linux > > > > compatibility was created to draw in users. (i.e. BSD can do everything > > > > Linux can, including run its binaries, plus this and this and this) > > > > The more users BSD has, the more likely there will be a native BSD port. > > > > > > Given this theory, someone should be going balls-to-the-wall > > > on SCO Xenix and UNIX and Solaris x86 emulations, even if the > > > Linux emulation is broken in the process... > > > > You're right, except none of the above have ANY marketing momentum at this > > time. SCO UNIX and Solaris x86 compatibility would get us some kick-ass > > server apps, though. > > Given this theory, someone should be going balls-to-the-wall > on Windows 2000 emulation, even if the SCO Xenix and UNIX, Solaris > x86 emulation, and Linux emulation are broken in the process... Wine? Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 11 18:22: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CDC037BA52; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:21:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com ([208.187.122.225]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA28766; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:21:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <396BC8D1.67E4D1E8@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:24:33 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) References: <200007120116.SAA18556@usr06.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > Without Linux compatibility, BSD wouldn't have enough of a desktop user > > > > base for a company to even consider a native BSD port. The Linux > > > > compatibility was created to draw in users. (i.e. BSD can do everything > > > > Linux can, including run its binaries, plus this and this and this) > > > > The more users BSD has, the more likely there will be a native BSD port. > > > > > > Given this theory, someone should be going balls-to-the-wall > > > on SCO Xenix and UNIX and Solaris x86 emulations, even if the > > > Linux emulation is broken in the process... > > > > You're right, except none of the above have ANY marketing momentum at this > > time. SCO UNIX and Solaris x86 compatibility would get us some kick-ass > > server apps, though. > > Given this theory, someone should be going balls-to-the-wall > on Windows 2000 emulation, even if the SCO Xenix and UNIX, Solaris > x86 emulation, and Linux emulation are broken in the process... Someone is. I'm sure they could use your help. Please take Brett with you. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 11 22:15: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bom3.vsnl.net.in (bom3.vsnl.net.in [202.54.4.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A8E37B9D4 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:14:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rohit@ieee.org) Received: from trantor.org ([202.54.93.79]) by bom3.vsnl.net.in (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA32199 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:44:41 +0530 (IST) Received: from localhost (rohit@localhost) by trantor.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00363 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:38:20 +0530 (IST) (envelope-from rohit@ieee.org) X-Authentication-Warning: trantor.org: rohit owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:38:20 +0530 (IST) From: rohit sharma X-Sender: rohit@localhost To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Linux Emulation. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey, With due to respect to everybody on this list, Can we end the linux emulation thread.Please. We poor mortals in India who pay for internet access by the second would like a break.. Thanx. SIGTERM -rohit ---------------------------------------------------------------- Rohit Sharma rohit@ieee.org Public Relations Officer, IEEE K.J.Somaiya college of Engineering Student Branch. We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. -- Oscar Wilde To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 11 23:20:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FCDB37BC09; Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:20:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA95921; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:50:03 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:50:03 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: : cvs commit: src/usr.bin/make arch.c buf.c compat.c cond.c dir.c for.c hash.c job.c main.c make.c parse.c str.c suff.c targ.c util.c var.c Message-ID: <20000712155003.W30262@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20000712115426.N29642@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200007120617.XAA00682@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200007120617.XAA00682@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat] On Tuesday, 11 July 2000 at 23:17:16 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >>> And if you've got a good way of working out how to wrap quoted text, go >>> ahead and fill the rest of us in on it. 8) >> >> Emacs has a line wrap macro which understands quoted text. Taking >> Fred's paragraph above, it makes this out of it: >> >>>>> I can try to wrap, but I'd have to do so by hand. But wrapping >>>>> text at the sender's end is not the right thing. Your mail client >>>>> is broken, as it should wrap for you. You might try fixing that >>>>> rather than expecting everyone to hard-wrap text for you. Some of >>>>> us like letting our clients wrap the text for us as we change the >>>>> window size. >> >> That's m-q when running in letter mode (I think). > > Yeah, I used to use it. It does disastrous things with nonstandard or > broken nested quoting. Yes, it needs a little help with broken text. > The *only* right thing to do is display the message > *as*the*sender*formatted*it*. For originals, sure. We're not debating that. But what about quotations? It's your decision what you quote, not the sender's. Do you object to the quote of the following paragraph? > No other medium assumes that the *reader* makes the formatting > decisions - markup languages like HTML are designed for express > purpose of allowing the *writer* to distinguish between the > formatting elements that must be under writer control and those that > the reader can adjust. Did you use the D word? I can't see much in the way of design in HTML. It just sort of happened. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 12 1:10:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C34D937BCB4; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:10:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA41631; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:39:55 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:39:55 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Martin Cracauer Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Wilfredo_S=E1nchez?= , Bill Fumerola , Mike Smith , Bruce Evans , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Email format (was: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/make arch.c buf.c compat.c cond.c dir.c for.c hash.c job.c main.c make.c parse.c str.c suff.c targ.c util.c var.c) Message-ID: <20000712173955.Y30262@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200007120145.SAA19968@scv1.apple.com> <20000712122903.B30262@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20000712091710.B10785@cons.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000712091710.B10785@cons.org> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat before the committers get uppity] On Wednesday, 12 July 2000 at 9:17:10 +0200, Martin Cracauer wrote: > In <20000712122903.B30262@wantadilla.lemis.com>, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Tuesday, 11 July 2000 at 18:45:46 -0700, Wilfredo Sanchez wrote: >>> Bill: >>>>> From rfc 1855: >>>> >>>> - Don't run off the end of a line and simply let the terminal wrap; >>>> use a Carriage Return (CR) at the end of the line. Also, don't >>>> assume your screen size is the same as everyone else's. A good >>>> rule of thumb is to write out no more than 70 characters... >>> >>> Sorry, don't buy it. I write a paragraph. How it's presented to you >>> should be the job of your reader, not the sender. My reader deals just >>> fine with long lines. In fact, if you wrap to 70, and I have a window >>> only 50 wide, your wrapping is quite annoying, because I then get all of >>> these newlines in mid-line for no good reason. Assuming everyone has an >>> 80-wide display is bogus, or at least anachronistic. >> >> This doesn't have anything to do with memories of punched cards, if >> that's what you're saying. It relates to the restrictions of the >> human eye. Note that book layouts pretty much adhere to the 70 >> character recommendation. Newspapers divide the text into columns >> because the full width would be unpleasant to read. > > It's hard to insert the '>' in quotes when we don't agree on a line > length That's one of the reasons to agree on a line length. > and I often have a > 80 chars window for mail reading in case long > lines that must not be wrapped (tables) appear, but I don't want to > have normal mail messages that wide, it's harder to jump to the next > lines then. I do exactly the same thing. I have a 120 character wide window for the same reasons, but normal text that wide is a real pain. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 12 1:31:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD6437BD23; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:31:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFE6BDA1E; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:31:24 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000712155003.W30262@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20000712115426.N29642@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200007120617.XAA00682@mass.osd.bsdi.com> <20000712155003.W30262@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:19:34 +0200 To: Greg Lehey , Mike Smith From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: : cvs commit: src/usr.bin/make arch.c buf.c compat.c cond.c dir.c for.c hash.c job.c main.c make.c parse.c str.c suff.c targ.c util.c var.c Cc: FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:50 PM +0930 2000/7/12, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 11 July 2000 at 23:17:16 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >>>> And if you've got a good way of working out how to wrap quoted text, go >>>> ahead and fill the rest of us in on it. 8) BTW, in case this hasn't been mentioned before, I believe that there is a program in /usr/ports/textproc called "par". It's supposed to be really good at reformatting paragraphs and keeping things like quoting characters aligned, etc.... >>> Emacs has a line wrap macro which understands quoted text. Taking >>> Fred's paragraph above, it makes this out of it: >>> >>>>>> I can try to wrap, but I'd have to do so by hand. But wrapping >>>>>> text at the sender's end is not the right thing. Your mail client >>>>>> is broken, as it should wrap for you. You might try fixing that >>>>>> rather than expecting everyone to hard-wrap text for you. Some of >>>>>> us like letting our clients wrap the text for us as we change the >>>>>> window size. >>> >>> That's m-q when running in letter mode (I think). Let me try re-wrapping the above lines with par: >>> Emacs has a line wrap macro which >>> understands quoted text. Taking Fred's >>> paragraph above, it makes this out of >>> it: >>> >>>>>> I can try to wrap, but I'd have >>>>>> to do so by hand. But wrapping >>>>>> text at the sender's end is not >>>>>> the right thing. Your mail client >>>>>> is broken, as it should wrap for >>>>>> you. You might try fixing that >>>>>> rather than expecting everyone to >>>>>> hard-wrap text for you. Some of us >>>>>> like letting our clients wrap the >>>>>> text for us as we change the window >>>>>> size. >>> >>> That's m-q when running in letter mode >>>(I think). This was produced by running this paragraph (in vi ;-) through "par w42". I note that it removed the double space characters. I'm sure this could be fixed,but the syntax to par is unfortunately rather complex, and I've only begun to explore the examples. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 12 2: 0: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F03C37BCA7; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 02:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFC4B1808A; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:59:58 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20000712115426.N29642@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200007120617.XAA00682@mass.osd.bsdi.com> <20000712155003.W30262@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:59:17 +0200 To: Greg Lehey , Mike Smith From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: : cvs commit: src/usr.bin/make arch.c buf.c compat.c cond.c dir.c for.c hash.c job.c main.c make.c parse.c str.c suff.c targ.c util.c var.c Cc: FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:19 AM +0200 2000/7/12, Brad Knowles wrote: > This was produced by running this paragraph (in vi ;-) through > "par w42". I note that it removed the double space characters. > I'm sure this could be fixed,but the syntax to par is unfortunately > rather complex, and I've only begun to explore the examples. Through trial-and error, taking the same input paragraph, I can get: >>> Emacs has a line wrap macro which understands >>> quoted text. Taking Fred's paragraph above, >>> it makes this out of it: >>> >>>>>> I can try to wrap, but I'd have to do so >>>>>> by hand. But wrapping text at the sender's >>>>>> end is not the right thing. Your mail >>>>>> client is broken, as it should wrap for >>>>>> you. You might try fixing that rather than >>>>>> expecting everyone to hard-wrap text for >>>>>> you. Some of us like letting our clients >>>>>> wrap the text for us as we change the >>>>>> window size. >>> >>> That's m-q when running in letter mode (I >>> think). By pumping the paragraph through "par B=._A_a Q+:+ q 50bg". This is very close to the actual quoting style used by the original author(s). I think putting an extra space before the "q" might get us back to their "double space after the set of left-hand quoting character(s)". Pretty cool stuff. I think if/when I start doing e-mail with mutt once more, I'll be using par to be doing my paragraph reformatting. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 12 2:28:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 061DF37BD72 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 02:28:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 839 invoked by uid 211); 12 Jul 2000 09:28:10 -0000 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:58:10 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: Greg Lehey , Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: : cvs commit: src/usr.bin/make arch.c buf.c compat.c cond.c dir.c for.c hash.c job.c main.c make.c parse.c str.c suff.c targ.c util.c var.c Message-ID: <20000712145810.A818@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000712115426.N29642@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200007120617.XAA00682@mass.osd.bsdi.com> <20000712155003.W30262@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from blk@skynet.be on Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 10:19:34AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on Jul 12, 2000 at 10:19:34: > At 3:50 PM +0930 2000/7/12, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > On Tuesday, 11 July 2000 at 23:17:16 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > >>>> And if you've got a good way of working out how to wrap quoted text, go > >>>> ahead and fill the rest of us in on it. 8) - snip - vim can also wrap quoted text quite nicely, "gqap" in command mode. On re-wrapping the stuff below to 70 chars one gets > > Let me try re-wrapping the above lines with par: > > >>> Emacs has a line wrap macro which understands quoted text. > >>> Taking Fred's paragraph above, it makes this out of it: > >>> > >>>>>> I can try to wrap, but I'd have to do so by hand. But > >>>>>> wrapping text at the sender's end is not the right thing. > >>>>>> Your mail client is broken, as it should wrap for you. You > >>>>>> might try fixing that rather than expecting everyone to > >>>>>> hard-wrap text for you. Some of us like letting our > >>>>>> clients wrap the text for us as we change the window size. > >>> > >>> That's m-q when running in letter mode > >>>(I think). > > This was produced by running this paragraph (in vi ;-) through > "par w42". I note that it removed the double space > characters. I'm sure this could be fixed,but the syntax to > par is unfortunately rather complex, and I've only begun to > explore the examples. vim seems to have changed the indentation a bit, on the other hand it retained the double spaces... IIRC, pine and pico do it correctly too. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 12 10:19:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B45D37BF62 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:19:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA07901; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:17:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAH1aiup; Wed Jul 12 10:17:44 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA20548; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:18:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007121718.KAA20548@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) To: jcwells@nwlink.com (Jason C. Wells) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:18:51 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jason C. Wells" at Jul 08, 2000 01:44:41 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The FreeBSD ABI was your idea, though I predict it was merely a > rhetorical device. You develop it! It was my idea, from 1994. The actual idea was called "FABIO", for "Free Applicabtion Binary Interface Objective"; yes, I know that it's a stretch to fit the acronym. The intent of the idea was not necessarily to have the FreeBSD ABI everywhere, but was to have the same x86 UNIX ABI everywhere. The IBCS2, SVID III, POSIX, Spec 1170 (now Single UNIX Specification) are all inadequate to this task, as evidenced by the fragmentation of the UNIX market. The main driving force behind this fragmentation is, IMO, the fact that vendors all attempt to "add value", which is, to translate from marketspeak into English, it "introduce binary incompatability which will allow programs from other platforms to run on theirs, but not vice versa". Linux and FreeBSD have both been guilty of this sin, though FreeBSD less so, since it is (compared to Linux) fairly stable. To combat this would require, in my opinion, a commitment similar to that outlined in my original FABIO posting to usenet: 1) One of the commercial UNIX systems, SCO, SVR4, or Solaris, will be chosen as the reference "Level 2 compliant FABIO platform". This platform will dictate all manifest constants for signal handlers, ioctl() calls, etc.. Since commercial platforms are relatively frozen in their ABI, these values are unlikely to change, unlike trying to track the various Linux and BSD moving targets. 2) We accept the following definitions: Level 2 Compliant FABIO platform: A level 2 compliant platform implements all FABIO ABIs, dynamic linking, packaging and installation technologies, shared libraries, etc.. This guarantees that programs written to the FABIO standard _will_ run on _all_ FABIO platforms. Level 1 Compliant FABIO platform: A level 1 compliant platform is level 2 compliant. In addition to level 2 compliance, a level 1 compliant platform _SHALL_ have the ability to _turn off_ acccess to all non-FABIO ABIs. This guarantees that, if a developer utilizes a level 1 compliant platform, they will not accidently incorporate vendor private extensions to the OS as dependencies. 3) Clearly, sane vendors will only choose level 1 compliant platforms, since it will guarantee the highest degree of portability for the resulting binary applications, for the lease amount of effort. 4) Clearly, sane OS developers will fall in line with the standard. This will commoditize x86 UNIX, for better or for worse, but that is rather the point of the exercise. I believe this proposal is as valid today as when it was first presented. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 12 10:21:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C724C37BF62; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:20:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA08107; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:21:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAiFaWXp; Wed Jul 12 10:21:03 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA20583; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:20:28 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007121720.KAA20583@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD :Linux) :: To: stuyman@confusion.net (Laurence Berland) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:20:28 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters), fpawlak@execpc.com (Frank Pawlak), jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> from "Laurence Berland" at Jul 08, 2000 09:41:04 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >So we must not let this happen to FreeBSD, we must have native > > >support!!! How do we get this? We implement the FreeBSD api on Linux, > > >so that people will write to FreeBSD instead. Great! But, let's think > > >for a second. If it's bad to use emulators, if it hurts your platform > > >of choice, then why on earth do you think that a Linux user would be > > >fooled into using FreeBSD emulation? > > > > Because they will mistake it for a feature. > > At a bare minimum that's a naive assumption, and at worst it's an insult > to the intelligence of Linux users. Just because they don't prefer the > OS that you and I prefer doesn't mean they aren't smart enough to see > this as what it is. The only reason they would adopt this emulation is > if we can show them real gain through its use. If nothing else, this is > a chicken-and-egg problem. They wont want it until they can run FreeBSD > apps that dont have linux ports, which wont exist until they use the > FreeBSD emulator, which they won't get until the apps exist... There are FreeBSD applications which do not exist on Linux. The entire world is not Open Source yet (thank God). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 12 13:45:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A3E3137C647 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:45:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 5472 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2000 20:45:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 12 Jul 2000 20:45:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 2064 invoked by uid 211); 12 Jul 2000 20:45:27 -0000 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 02:15:26 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: .gnu TLD Message-ID: <20000713021526.A2015@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test3 i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,37514,00.html Has anyone asked for a .bsd top level domain? - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 12 15:11:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE5D537BC42 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:11:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@glue.umd.edu) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e6CMBZA21187; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:11:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA27273; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:11:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA27269; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:11:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:11:31 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .gnu TLD In-Reply-To: <20000713021526.A2015@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,37514,00.html > > Has anyone asked for a .bsd top level domain? Considering BSD's contributions to the Internet in general, compared to GNU which merely leaches off it, it would be good to see. www.free.bsd sounds nice. Can I get jamie.bsd? :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 12 15:28:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C32C337B746 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:28:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Received: from localhost (lplist@localhost) by q.closedsrc.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id e6CMRAo94295; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:27:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:27:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: James Howard Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .gnu TLD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Off-topic, but I registered bsdnotlinux.org :) .com and .net should still be available (I'm not planning on taking them, so they are up for grabs). // Linh Pham // // Proud supporter of FreeBSD and OpenBSD // FreeBSD - http://www.freebsd.org // OpenBSD - http://www.openbsd.org /* "Oregon, n.: Eighty billion gallons of water with no place to go on Saturday night." */ On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, James Howard wrote: > On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,37514,00.html > > > > Has anyone asked for a .bsd top level domain? > > Considering BSD's contributions to the Internet in general, compared to > GNU which merely leaches off it, it would be good to see. > > www.free.bsd sounds nice. Can I get jamie.bsd? :) > > Jamie > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 12 21:45:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE3A37B7F8 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:45:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20268; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:44:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000712224235.04c0a510@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:44:38 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: .gnu TLD In-Reply-To: <20000713021526.A2015@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gee, if Stallman's empire/organization can get a TLD, then why can't any other? Are we going to see .nike? .kodak? .microsoft? (Actually, all of the above are more worthy of a domain than the FSF, which misrepresents itself as a charity.) --Brett At 02:45 PM 7/12/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,37514,00.html > >Has anyone asked for a .bsd top level domain? > >- Rahul > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 12 22:42:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vulcan.addy.com (vulcan.addy.com [208.11.142.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94BD137C22A for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:42:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by vulcan.addy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA36692 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:42:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200007130542.BAA36692@vulcan.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:38:10 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Is Stable really stable? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For many years while in the "playing" stage with FreeBSD I never managed more than one FreeBSD computer.I didn't follow stable and when there was a new version I just did a fresh install. As the number of FreeBSD computers that I manage grew and I started to track "Stable" changes seemed like trouble more and more. The recent changes in the way of making new kernels plus the additions of shutdown calling scripts in the rc.d directories seem nothing short of an admin nightmare. I only manage 7 FreeBSD computers and I find it a pain to have to go through all of them and make all the changes in the rc.d scripts plus the new buildworld/kernel procedure seems more cumbersome too.. These computers are not even on same locations so NFS mounting to share certain diretories (/usr/, /obj) is not a viable option to ease the pain. My dream "Stable" branch is one where I can just recompile sources and have the kernel install.. in the same way as long as there isn't a new version. I don't think "surprises" are a good thing in a "stable" branch. Things seem to be getting to the point where it would be easier to find ways to do fresh installs when there is a new version than to track Stable. francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 12 23: 4: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 885AD37B676; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:04:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA76027; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:04:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:04:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: Is Stable really stable? In-Reply-To: <200007130542.BAA36692@vulcan.addy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Francisco Reyes wrote: > The recent changes in the way of making new kernels plus the Repeat after me: it's not a recent change - people just didn't get the message until it was rammed down their throats recently. There is a certain minimal investment required to aggressively track -stable, namely the willingness to keep up with the mailing list, to read what others write when they describe upgrade pitfalls and temporary breakage after code changes, and to read the UPDATING file (which, by definition, usually lags a few days behind the leading edge because we can't predict all problems in advance). Frankly, stable is a lot easier to manage if you don't try and upgrade to the bleeding edge all the time, but gauge mailing list traffic for trouble spots, and upgrade every so often to a "safe" date once troubles have died down (e.g. you can use cvsup to update to specific dates, not just the very latest in the tree). For example, I think you'll agree that picking a date to upgrade when the mailing list is full of people crying "My stable is broken! My stable is broken!" would be a pretty silly thing to do. And of course, you don't blindly upgrade all of your machines at once, do you? If you're not willing or able to put in the time to manage source-code -stable upgrades coherently, then stick to discrete -RELEASE upgrades, or binary snapshots. With the 4.0 branch, developers are making a lot more of an effort to ensure that 4.0 doesn't severely diverge from -current. This was a major criticism of the 3.x branch, which soon lagged so far behind what was then 4.0-CURRENT that bugfixing became impossible, and the entire 3.x branch suffered as a result. On the one hand, you can have a -stable branch which becomes stagnant and for which merging bugfixes becomes impossible, on the other hand you can have a -stable branch which is actively maintained and developed, at the expense of occasional merge fallout. And before you suggest it, no, FreeBSD does not have the developer resources to maintain a third development track. If you're upset with -stable, I put it to you that you have the wrong expectations from it, and are trying to use it in inappropriate ways for your situation. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 12 23:14:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5527D37B9E0; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:14:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA77974; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:14:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:14:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: Is Stable really stable? In-Reply-To: <200007130542.BAA36692@vulcan.addy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Francisco Reyes wrote: > My dream "Stable" branch is one where I can just recompile sources and > have the kernel install.. in the same way as long as there isn't a new > version. I don't think "surprises" are a good thing in a "stable" > branch. An addendum to my previous message: the above is an incorrect expectation of what "FreeBSD-stable" is. I refer you to the handbook: ==== 18.2.2.1. What is FreeBSD-STABLE? FreeBSD-STABLE is our development branch for a more low-key and conservative set of changes intended for our next mainstream release. Changes of an experimental or untested nature do not go into this branch (see FreeBSD-CURRENT). ==== Specifically, FreeBSD-STABLE is not guaranteed to always build or never have upgrade hoops to jump through, although of course we do everything we can to make sure that these are minimized - build problems are usually fixed within minutes or hours, and are usually well-documented if you read the appropriate resources. What FreeBSD-STABLE is, is a set of *features* which have been tested and shown to be stable (i.e. not crash your machine). You are confusing the method with the end result. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 1:46:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt052n3e.san.rr.com (dt052n3e.san.rr.com [204.210.33.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05DCE37C266; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:46:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt052n3e.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA13039; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:42:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <396D80EA.D1E939D3@gorean.org> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:42:18 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marcel Moolenaar Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Adrian Chadd , wilko@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: introducing myself... References: <20000711081813.D80764@lucifer.bart.nl> <20000711171557.A7557@ywing.creative.net.au> <20000711202907.A1457@freebie.demon.nl> <20000711214734.A8589@ywing.creative.net.au> <396B7D77.97666CC1@cup.hp.com> <396BB31D.2AD00A1F@cup.hp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marcel Moolenaar wrote: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > > Marcel Moolenaar writes: > > > Wooden shoes can only be matches by 2 things: orange hair *and* an > > > orange t-shirt... and the national flag on your cheek... 3 things: > > > orange hair, an orange t-shirt and the national flag on your sheek... > > > and at least knowing the right words in the first couplet of our > > > national anthem... 4 things....... > > > > Ah, the famous Dutch Inquisition? > > Nobody expects the Dutch Inquisition... :-) Doesn't have quite the same ring to it... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 4:22: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31CCE37B73D for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 04:22:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 277DB756B; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 04:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22DE41D91; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 04:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 04:22:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: James Howard Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .gnu TLD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, James Howard wrote: :On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: : :> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,37514,00.html :> :> Has anyone asked for a .bsd top level domain? : :Considering BSD's contributions to the Internet in general, compared to :GNU which merely leaches off it, it would be good to see. : :www.free.bsd sounds nice. Can I get jamie.bsd? :) No. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 4:46:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2805037B544 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 04:46:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA17172; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 06:20:33 -0400 Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA80156; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:45:34 GMT (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:45:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Jamie Bowden Cc: James Howard , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .gnu TLD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Jamie Bowden wrote: > :> Has anyone asked for a .bsd top level domain? > : > :Considering BSD's contributions to the Internet in general, compared to > :GNU which merely leaches off it, it would be good to see. > : > :www.free.bsd sounds nice. Can I get jamie.bsd? :) > > No. Hey, I want kris.bsd! ;-) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 6:40:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB5AF37C448 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 06:40:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.91.36] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13Ci9Z-00025t-00; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:31:45 +0100 Received: (from ben) by strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13Ci9Z-000KGJ-00; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:31:45 +0100 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:31:45 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Kris Kirby Cc: Jamie Bowden , James Howard , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gnu TLD Message-ID: <20000713133145.D48641@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6WlEvdN9Dv0WHSBl" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --6WlEvdN9Dv0WHSBl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kris Kirby wrote: > On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Jamie Bowden wrote: >> :> Has anyone asked for a .bsd top level domain? >> : >> :Considering BSD's contributions to the Internet in general, compared to >> :GNU which merely leaches off it, it would be good to see. >> : >> :www.free.bsd sounds nice. Can I get jamie.bsd? :) >>=20 >> No. >=20 > Hey, I want kris.bsd! ;-) As long as my email address is ben@bsd I don't care... I suppose ben@FreeBSD.org is a good start though. ;-) --=20 Ben Smithurst / ben@FreeBSD.org / PGP: 0x99392F7D FreeBSD Documentation Project / --6WlEvdN9Dv0WHSBl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use MessageID: NLrSqcDnPTk8S8u7CdHgK/zAI1LxkyJD iQCVAwUBOW22sCsPVtiZOS99AQGIwAP6Ak/vJlpmQ0ZTbf9hGPiAW7VTo1UjQCcn iBTFup64snbzQs/c26ZdbD1KLksn7fPMl/ulKfTqYG+Z+m6z9ZzNPqt3ZJ0s6vel 2esIBRLuodtyb5wO43OEY0/c6ju74+8Fdr5sjy294weTfBgSdLtcurOny6JWrERk GKWBq/cgvHc= =VlZn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6WlEvdN9Dv0WHSBl-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 14:20:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479B137C1A5; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:20:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA81579; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:20:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:20:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Kris Kirby Cc: Jamie Bowden , James Howard , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .gnu TLD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Kris Kirby wrote: > > :www.free.bsd sounds nice. Can I get jamie.bsd? :) > > > > No. > > Hey, I want kris.bsd! ;-) No. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 14:44:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C52F37B57D for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:44:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (root@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.150]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01518 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:44:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA09517 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:44:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09512 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:44:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200007132144.RAA09512@rac10.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac10.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Pet Theory for World Domination Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:44:47 -0400 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org BSDi should buy/merge with SCO. Now hear me out on this. I just read the OSOpinion discussion of SCO's future and that a Linux company should buy it out. Forget that, it is a better match for BSDi. BSDi would then have everything, including a compiler, to build a full Unix without the GPL in the way. BSDi would gain Tarantella. BSDi would gain a huge installed userbase. It would further consolidate the Unix market. There is a metric ton of code there including the NonStop stuff and all the heritage associated with a REAL Unix. Forward all flames to /dev/null :) J~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 16:42:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1D337B680 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:42:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29550; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:42:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000713174035.04b96410@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:42:27 -0600 To: James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Pet Theory for World Domination In-Reply-To: <200007132144.RAA09512@rac10.wam.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:44 PM 7/13/2000, James Howard wrote: >BSDi should buy/merge with SCO. > >Now hear me out on this. I just read the OSOpinion discussion of SCO's >future and that a Linux company should buy it out. Forget that, it is a >better match for BSDi. BSDi would then have everything, including a >compiler, to build a full Unix without the GPL in the way. BSDi would >gain Tarantella. BSDi would gain a huge installed userbase. It would >further consolidate the Unix market. There is a metric ton of code there >including the NonStop stuff and all the heritage associated with a REAL >Unix. Hey -- they'd even get an embarrassing sex scandal at no extra charge. Just kidding. ;-) Seriously, it might be a good idea. I'd sure like to see them get a base of non-GPLed code that could be BSD-licensed and replace the GPLed bits of FreeBSD. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 18: 2:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD2B337BA00 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 18:02:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA76658; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:02:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:02:19 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pet Theory for World Domination In-Reply-To: <200007132144.RAA09512@rac10.wam.umd.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, James Howard wrote: :BSDi should buy/merge with SCO. : Am I nuts, or does SCO own the successor of the AT&T USL, that sued over 4.4BSD? If so, it would be quite a different meaning to "Free the 4.4!". David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 18:30:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E442A37B710 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 18:30:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (root@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.150]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17889; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:30:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA21994; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:30:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21989; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200007140130.VAA21989@rac10.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac10.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: David Scheidt Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pet Theory for World Domination In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:02:19 CDT." Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:30:12 -0400 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message , Da vid Scheidt writes: > On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, James Howard wrote: > > :BSDi should buy/merge with SCO. > : > > Am I nuts, or does SCO own the successor of the AT&T USL, that sued over > 4.4BSD? If so, it would be quite a different meaning to "Free the 4.4!". Revenge is a dish best served cold :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 20:21:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1.gte.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732BB37BDD6 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:21:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net (evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.146.5]) by smtppop1.gte.net with ESMTP ; id WAA2397743 Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:18:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:20:39 -0700 (PDT) From: The Clark Family X-Sender: res03db2@orthanc.dsl.gtei.net To: David Scheidt Cc: James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pet Theory for World Domination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org SCO bought UNIXWare from Novell didn't they? [RC] On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, David Scheidt wrote: > On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, James Howard wrote: > > :BSDi should buy/merge with SCO. > : > > Am I nuts, or does SCO own the successor of the AT&T USL, that sued over > 4.4BSD? If so, it would be quite a different meaning to "Free the 4.4!". > > David > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 20:29:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7728A37B668 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:29:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (root@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.150]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22310; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:29:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA28937; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:29:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA28932; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:29:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200007140329.XAA28932@rac10.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac10.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: The Clark Family Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pet Theory for World Domination In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:20:39 PDT." Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:29:16 -0400 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message , The Clark Family writes: > > SCO bought UNIXWare from Novell didn't they? Yes. Also, wasn't this purchase made *during* the court proceedings? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 20:36:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD15D37BCF7 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:36:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA03603 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:06:14 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:06:14 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: [Fwd: Bill explains .NET vaporware to Steve] Message-ID: <20000714130614.T30012@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Forwarded message from "David L. Sifry" ----- > > Something for all of you conspiracy theorists out there... :-) > > Dave > -- > David L. Sifry, Chief Technology Officer > Linuxcare, Inc. > 415.354.4236 tel, 415.701.7457 fax > dsifry@linuxcare.com, http://www.linuxcare.com/ > > Linuxcare. Support for the revolution. > Delivered-To: dsifry@linuxcare.com > User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 > Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:12:42 +0900 > To: "David L. Sifry" > X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 > > biztech conf Topic 134: Microsoft Antitrust Litigation, continued > # 684: A mean kinda funny. (dmasson) Tue Jul 11 00(09:50) 101 lines > > Something that found its way to one of my mailing lists: > > Bill and Steve sat down for their weekly meeting. After some chit-chat . . > . > > SB: Bill, all week I've been hearing rumours about this .Net thing you're > cooking up. Some of the rumours say it's a better way of providing > services > to our > customers, and that doesn't sound right. > > BG: It's not. > > SB: Well what is it then? > > BG: It's a way of tying all of our products together, IIS, IE, Office, > all > tied to Windows, all using Microsoft development tools, and all relying on > Microsoft protocols > over the Internet. > > SB: Ah, that's more like it. So how are you planning to do it? > > BG: I don't know. > > SB: How's that? > > BG: Well, we need to provide some new functions that aren't available > today, > that people really need, and that only come with Microsoft servers and > clients. > And, we need to build these functions under the guise of doing something > else, so we can > spring them on the market by surprise. > > SB: That makes sense. If we announce our intentions up front, then that > rabble from Sherwood will have it up and running before we've finished our > marketing > plan, let alone our development plan. So what are the new functions? > > BG: I don't know. > > SB: Then why are we talking about it? > > BG: Wait, wait. I'm just getting to the good part. I have an idea on how > we > can get our customers to define the functions for us, without letting > anyone know that > that's what's happening. > > SB: Intriguing. Go on. > BG: Okay. First we announce .Net, and start a big promotion about how it's > going to change everything. We'll call it Next Generation or something. > > SB: Without even knowing what it is. > > BG: Right. > > SB: So what's new about that? > > BG: I haven't got to that part yet. > > SB: Okay. Business as usual. Then what? > > BG: So we keep churning the story with more announcements about how great > ".Net" is going to be. Then we look at all the cool stuff other people are > doing > is going to be. Then we look at all the cool stuff other people are doing > with the Internet, and we start including that with our announcements. Our > press > releases will say that Microsoft is making it possible to do those things > for the first > time. > > SB: Still business as usual. > > BG: Here's the good part. The online forums are going to be filled with > posts > saying that we're just copying everybody else. > > SB: And how does that help us? Get to the point. > > BG: Well some of our customers are bound to assume that we know what > we're > doing. > They'll be so convinced that we have something up our sleeve, and they'll > be > so bugged at those smug Linuxers, that they'll start defending us in the > newsgroups. > They'll start posting things like, "When Microsoft finishes .Net I'll > finally be able to do > such-and-such." And that's it. > > SB: That's what? > > BG: We watch all the forums and newsgroups. We collect all the posts that > say > "I'll finally be able to do such-and-such", and that's our new set of > functions. I > figure it should only take us about six months, or so, to get some idea of > what .Net > is. > > SB: [smiles] That's brilliant. Microsoft innovation strikes again! > And the sound of laughter rang through the halls of Redmond. > > ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 21:38:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA2E37BD9F; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:38:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA78882; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:38:35 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:38:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Pittsburgh August IETF Meeting: FreeBSD dinner, et al? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So it's coming up on that IETF time of year again, this time in beautiful (?) down-town Pittsburgh, in the first week of August. First, I'd like to encourage FreeBSD people to turn out for the event, as a strong showing in the standards community is great, and keeps the research projects coming to the platform (bring us things like industry-standard IP stacks). IETF meetings are a lot of fun, even if you don't have the technical background to participate fully. The hotels are filling fast, so book soon. Second, I'd like to bring up the topic of a FreeBSD dinner. We did one at the November IETF in DC with relatively good success, last year, although a reservation in advance is probably a good idea this time :-). With that in mind, I'd be glad to help organize things somewhat. The best day for me might actually be Monday evening, during the two-hour break, but I'm open to suggestions here if there are any serious BSD conflicts (i.e., a KAME meeting or something). If you're interested in participating, please feel free to send me an e-mail including: Your name Your preferred e-mail address Your preferred contact mechanism while at IETF (shout, for example, but preferably e-mail, or hotel information) Whether you would like to attend (obligatory: yes) Whether Monday would work for you or not, and if not, why Hope to see you all there! Robert N M Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37 ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1 TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 21:57: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED19437BE08 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:56:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA05216; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:56:57 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:56:57 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: James Howard Cc: The Clark Family , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pet Theory for World Domination In-Reply-To: <200007140329.XAA28932@rac10.wam.umd.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, James Howard wrote: :In message , The :Clark Family writes: :> :> SCO bought UNIXWare from Novell didn't they? : :Yes. Also, wasn't this purchase made *during* the court proceedings? I think that was AT&T selling UNIX to Novell. My history is sort of fuzzy, though. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 22:15:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aurora.sol.net (aurora.sol.net [206.55.65.76]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B175C37BF65 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:15:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgreco@aurora.sol.net) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by aurora.sol.net (8.9.2/8.9.2/SNNS-1.02) id AAA67812 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:32:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <200007140532.AAA67812@aurora.sol.net> Subject: 4.1R release timetable? To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:32:12 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I may have missed it, did anybody mention what the anticipated 4.1R release timetable was? Thanks, -- ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/342-4847 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 22:23: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D195F37BAC9; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:23:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@linkfast.net) Received: by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 97B5F9B03; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:23:01 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:23:01 -0500 From: Matthew Fuller To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Kris Kirby , Jamie Bowden , James Howard , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .gnu TLD Message-ID: <20000714002301.E3929@linkfast.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@FreeBSD.org on Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 02:20:36PM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 02:20:36PM -0700, a little birdie told me that Kris Kennaway remarked > On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Kris Kirby wrote: > > > > :www.free.bsd sounds nice. Can I get jamie.bsd? :) > > > > > > No. > > > > Hey, I want kris.bsd! ;-) > > No. I can see someone will have to mediate this whole mess. But hey, as long as I get matt.bsd... -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@linkfast.net Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 22:23:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC1637BAC9; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:23:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo [192.67.166.79]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA12515; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:23:03 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:23:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Robert Watson Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pittsburgh August IETF Meeting: FreeBSD dinner, et al? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > So it's coming up on that IETF time of year again, this time in beautiful > (?) down-town Pittsburgh, in the first week of August. ENOMONEY, ENOTIME, but for whoever goes, can you check out any of the SCSI over IP stuff and report back? I'm immensely interested, but have time/budget to go myself at the moment (it would be a cool 5.0 deliverable...) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 22:35:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA0937BD9F for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:35:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Received: from localhost (lplist@localhost) by q.closedsrc.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id e6E5WnN97899; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:32:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:32:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: Joe Greco Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 4.1R release timetable? In-Reply-To: <200007140532.AAA67812@aurora.sol.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If I'm not mistaken... 25th of this month is when 4.1-RELEASE should be available... // Linh Pham // // Proud supporter of FreeBSD and OpenBSD // FreeBSD - http://www.freebsd.org // OpenBSD - http://www.openbsd.org /* "Oregon, n.: Eighty billion gallons of water with no place to go on Saturday night." */ On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Joe Greco wrote: > I may have missed it, did anybody mention what the anticipated 4.1R release > timetable was? > > Thanks, > -- > ... Joe > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net > Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/342-4847 > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 13 22:50: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69D3237BFC9 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:49:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA29679; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:24:18 -0400 Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA89607; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 05:49:18 GMT (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 05:49:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Matthew Fuller Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .gnu TLD In-Reply-To: <20000714002301.E3929@linkfast.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Matthew Fuller wrote: > I can see someone will have to mediate this whole mess. > > But hey, as long as I get matt.bsd... Gee, I wonder who will get greg.bsd^Wgrog.bsd. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 0:18:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7833C37BD6A for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:18:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA18786; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:19:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Bill Fumerola , "Jeffrey J. Mountin" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Displacement of Blame[tm] In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:56:25 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20000714004715.04b8bc00@localhost> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:19:29 -0700 Message-ID: <18783.963559169@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [This has absolutely nothing to do with security now - redirecting to -chat] > You seemed to like the idea of starting a BSD track at the O'Reilly > conference -- after I did it on my own initiative. That's hard a good example of "one of your ideas" since other people have had the idea before, you simply implemented it at O'Reilly. If you had not, somebody else would have. Kind of a no-brainer, really. > >Your ideas, not to put too fine a point on it, tend to be wild flights > >of hallucinogenic fantasy and are not "good" by any stretch of the > >imagination. > > Now YOU are hurling insults. No, I'm stating what I feel to be the facts. I don't like your ideas and I think that they, for the most part, suck. You can take that as a gratuitous insult or you can maybe, just maybe, wonder if I've come to hold such opinions through negative experience. > Jordan, while you seem to be good at doing releases and organizing > development, you have not done well at promoting the platform. I think I've done as good a job as anyone could expect to do and I also seriously doubt that you'd have done any better in my place, so this tangent is just more of your wild opinionating in action. I'm sure you'd have us all believe that since I didn't manage to beat Linux and Microsoft singlehandedly, I somehow failed and should not stand in the way of a real stud like yourself who knows how to walk the walk. That's bull, just as has been your frequently-stated assertion that I'm "allergic to serious advocacy and highly resistent to new ideas." So far I've been very open to both, I've just been resistent to "rabid advocacy" (and you can simply read my past postings on what constitutes "rabid" given that you're so fond of referring to the mail archives) and I've been resistent to YOUR ideas. I like new ideas just fine, but a crack smoking idea is still a crack smoking idea and you seem to have a disproportionate number of those. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 0:45: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net (penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF7F437C075 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:45:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@pool0176.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net) Received: from pool0176.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net (pool0176.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.192.176]) by penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3-EL_1_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA14082; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by pool0176.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01611; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:42:50 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: freebsd Cc: Josh Paetzel , Rob Wilkinson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installation on a 486-2/66 Message-ID: <20000714004249.A1475@dialup-client.earthlink.net> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <012e01bfed2e$c8fa7940$b7430ace@hacker> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from george@vagner.com on Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 11:57:22PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 11:57:22PM +0200, freebsd wrote: > i believe you need more ram minimum of 12 meg to install 3.0 and above > although 2.2.8 will do it with 5 meg. > > > > No 2 things can be the same, they cannot > exist in the same space at the same time. Bosons? -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 2: 0:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C95F637B531; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:00:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA96981; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:00:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Matthew Fuller Cc: Kris Kennaway , Kris Kirby , Jamie Bowden , James Howard , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .gnu TLD References: <20000714002301.E3929@linkfast.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Jul 2000 11:00:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: Matthew Fuller's message of "Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:23:01 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew Fuller writes: > On Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 02:20:36PM -0700, a little birdie told me > that Kris Kennaway remarked > > On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Kris Kirby wrote: > > > > :www.free.bsd sounds nice. Can I get jamie.bsd? :) > > > > No. > > > Hey, I want kris.bsd! ;-) > > No. > I can see someone will have to mediate this whole mess. > > But hey, as long as I get matt.bsd... Matt Dillon might want to contest that. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 2: 7:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postal.linkfast.net (postal.linkfast.net [208.160.105.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BBD337BD15 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:07:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@linkfast.net) Received: by postal.linkfast.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 9FF7A9B2D; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 04:07:38 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 04:07:38 -0500 From: Matthew Fuller To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .gnu TLD Message-ID: <20000714040738.F3929@linkfast.net> References: <20000714002301.E3929@linkfast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 11:00:02AM +0200 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 11:00:02AM +0200, a little birdie told me that Dag-Erling Smorgrav remarked > Matthew Fuller writes: > > > > But hey, as long as I get matt.bsd... > > Matt Dillon might want to contest that. Bring on the Jell-O pit! I think I can take 'im... -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@linkfast.net Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 2:31:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6FBA737B63D for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:31:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 12253 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2000 06:23:02 -0000 Received: from theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.128) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 14 Jul 2000 06:23:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 826 invoked by uid 211); 14 Jul 2000 06:22:58 -0000 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:52:58 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pet Theory for World Domination Message-ID: <20000714115258.A804@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200007132144.RAA09512@rac10.wam.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200007132144.RAA09512@rac10.wam.umd.edu>; from howardjp@wam.umd.edu on Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 05:44:47PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.32 i486 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Howard said on Jul 13, 2000 at 17:44:47: > Now hear me out on this. I just read the OSOpinion discussion of SCO's > future and that a Linux company should buy it out. Forget that, it is a > better match for BSDi. BSDi would then have everything, including a > compiler, to build a full Unix without the GPL in the way. BSDi would I'm curious: how does SCO's compiler compare with gcc, speed-wise and optimisation-wise? What about the c++ compiler? And do they have a good fortran compiler? Anyone know? Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 5:31:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFEE237BEFB for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 05:31:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (root@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.150]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA04676; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:30:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA05714; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05709; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200007141230.IAA05709@rac10.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac10.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pet Theory for World Domination In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:52:58 +0530." <20000714115258.A804@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:30:44 -0400 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <20000714115258.A804@physics.iisc.ernet.in>, Rahul Siddharthan write s: > James Howard said on Jul 13, 2000 at 17:44:47: > > Now hear me out on this. I just read the OSOpinion discussion of SCO's > > future and that a Linux company should buy it out. Forget that, it is a > > better match for BSDi. BSDi would then have everything, including a > > compiler, to build a full Unix without the GPL in the way. BSDi would > > I'm curious: how does SCO's compiler compare with gcc, speed-wise and > optimisation-wise? What about the c++ compiler? And do they have a > good fortran compiler? Anyone know? Heresay and conjectre follows, here be dragons, be warned. I have heard SCO's beats the pants off every both in compiler performance and in performance of generated code. This would seem to make sense since they are not hot to trot for portability and can genuienly focus on one or two platforms. J~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 5:40:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5A12537C2DE for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 05:40:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 13926 invoked by uid 211); 14 Jul 2000 12:40:27 -0000 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:10:26 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pet Theory for World Domination Message-ID: <20000714181026.C13585@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: James Howard , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20000714115258.A804@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200007141230.IAA05709@rac10.wam.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200007141230.IAA05709@rac10.wam.umd.edu>; from howardjp@wam.umd.edu on Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 08:30:44AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > compiler, to build a full Unix without the GPL in the way. BSDi would > > > > I'm curious: how does SCO's compiler compare with gcc, speed-wise and > > optimisation-wise? What about the c++ compiler? And do they have a > > good fortran compiler? Anyone know? > > Heresay and conjectre follows, here be dragons, be warned. > > I have heard SCO's beats the pants off every both in compiler performance > and in performance of generated code. This would seem to make sense since > they are not hot to trot for portability and can genuienly focus on one or > two platforms. Well, definitely optimisation in gcc may suffer a bit because of their focus on portability; but on intel I've heard it's pretty good (I have nothing to compare it with but can't say). On alpha/linux I know Compaq's (Digital) compiler produces faster code, but it's not mindnumbingly faster: typically 10%-20%, and on some of my code they're actually level. (The fortran is a different story: no comparison between compaq and g77.) And the Compaq compiler is supposed to be one of the best around. So I'd be surprised if SCO's C compiler "beats the pants off" gcc. Anyway, in this purely hypothetical scenario of BSDi buying SCO, I'd like to see the switch to SCO's compiler if it's really better, but not for purely ideological reasons. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 6:58: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE31037C7B1 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 06:57:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D8BBB7569; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 06:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D627D1D8F for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 06:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 06:58:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: vinum Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey Grog, Is this intentional on your part? I suspect it is, but I thought I would ask. hahaha I get it... :) bishop, get what? the joke in the name "vinum." I'd never heard of it before... Oh. There's a joke in it? Care to clue me in? * Ragnar_ wonders if Grog knows this. vinum is latin for "wine." veritas is latin for "truth." "in wine there is truth." Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh. Takes a classics afficionado to figure it out, I guess. :D I congratulate you on your wordplay sir, if that were intentional. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 7: 0:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FBAD37C845 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 07:00:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Received: from localhost (lplist@localhost) by q.closedsrc.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id e6EDwkt98757; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 06:58:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 06:58:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: Kris Kirby Cc: Matthew Fuller , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .gnu TLD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Or lemis.bsd, vinum.bsd, complete.bsd :) // Linh Pham // // Proud supporter of FreeBSD and OpenBSD // FreeBSD - http://www.freebsd.org // OpenBSD - http://www.openbsd.org /* "Oregon, n.: Eighty billion gallons of water with no place to go on Saturday night." */ On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Kris Kirby wrote: > On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Matthew Fuller wrote: > > I can see someone will have to mediate this whole mess. > > > > But hey, as long as I get matt.bsd... > > Gee, I wonder who will get greg.bsd^Wgrog.bsd. > > ----- > Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > | > ------------------------------------------------------- > "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 7: 7:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lunatic.oneinsane.net (lunatic.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC8A937C286 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 07:07:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net) Received: by lunatic.oneinsane.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B168715510; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 07:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 07:07:23 -0700 From: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: .gnu TLD Message-ID: <20000714070723.A62602@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Reply-To: Ron Rosson Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20000714002301.E3929@linkfast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000714002301.E3929@linkfast.net>; from fullermd@linkfast.net on Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 12:23:01AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD lunatic.oneinsane.net 4.0-STABLE X-Moon: The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (97% of Full) X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net X-PGP-KEY: http://www.oneinsane.net/~insane/insane2-pgp5i.txt X-Uptime: 7:06AM up 2 days, 7:26, 1 user, load averages: 0.01, 0.02, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Matthew Fuller was heard blurting out: > On Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 02:20:36PM -0700, a little birdie told me > that Kris Kennaway remarked > > On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Kris Kirby wrote: > > > > > > :www.free.bsd sounds nice. Can I get jamie.bsd? :) > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > Hey, I want kris.bsd! ;-) > > > > No. > > I can see someone will have to mediate this whole mess. > > But hey, as long as I get matt.bsd... > > Well, I want insane.bsd ;-) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bartender, I'd like whatever the man on the floor was drinking. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 7:49:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kant.nihilist.org (kant.nihilist.org [64.6.194.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D869037B64F for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 07:49:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tcole@nietzsche.nihilist.org) Received: from nietzsche.nihilist.org (nietzsche.nihilist.org [192.168.1.5]) by kant.nihilist.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e6EEmax26808; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 07:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tcole@localhost) by nietzsche.nihilist.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA32746; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 07:49:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tcole) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 07:49:04 -0700 From: Travis Cole To: David Scheidt Cc: James Howard , The Clark Family , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pet Theory for World Domination Message-ID: <20000714074904.A30544@nihilist.org> References: <200007140329.XAA28932@rac10.wam.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@enteract.com on Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 11:56:57PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 11:56:57PM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, James Howard wrote: > > :In message , The > :Clark Family writes: > :> > :> SCO bought UNIXWare from Novell didn't they? > : > :Yes. Also, wasn't this purchase made *during* the court proceedings? > > I think that was AT&T selling UNIX to Novell. My history is sort of fuzzy, > though. Yeah, thats right. AT&T were they guys going after BSD, and when they sold UNIX to Novell that pretty much put a stop to it. But by that time BSD was mostly UNIX code free anyway. McKusick explains it pretty well in his chapter in Open Sources. Check out: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html Look for "The Lawsuit" -- --Travis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 11:17:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sofia.csl.sri.com (sofia.csl.sri.com [130.107.19.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A42037C1B4 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:17:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter@sofia.csl.sri.com) Received: (from molter@localhost) by sofia.csl.sri.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA42966 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:19:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter) From: Marco Molteni Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:19:21 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Anonymous CVS on anoncvs.FreeBSD.org is down ? Message-ID: <20000714111921.A42954@sofia.csl.sri.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, according to the handbook (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/synching.html), the host anoncvs.FreeBSD.org should allow anonymous cvs access. It appears that nothing is listening on that port: $ CVSROOT=:pserver:anoncvs@anoncvs.FreeBSD.org:/home/ncvs cvs login (Logging in to anoncvs@anoncvs.FreeBSD.org) CVS password: cvs [login aborted]: connect to anoncvs.FreeBSD.org:2401 failed: Connection refused If I try with netcat (or telnet) I get the same result: $ nc -v anoncvs.FreeBSD.org 2401 usw7.freebsd.org [209.181.243.20] 2401 (cvspserver) : Connection refused Is this a know problem? Is there a way to get anonymous cvs access? Thanks Marco -- Marco Molteni "rough consensus and running code" SRI International, System Design Laboratory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 12:52:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA07837BCF0 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:52:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.7/nospam) with UUCP id VAA14289 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:52:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 17E3387AE; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:06:16 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:06:16 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vinum Message-ID: <20000714210616.A72473@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 06:58:03AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Jamie Bowden: > I congratulate you on your wordplay sir, if that were intentional. It was intentional. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 5.0-CURRENT #80: Sun Jun 4 22:44:19 CEST 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 13: 3:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C75837C1A1 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:03:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08574; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:02:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714134159.04a0de20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:01:52 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Displacement of Blame[tm] Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Bill Fumerola , "Jeffrey J. Mountin" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <18783.963559169@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:19 AM 7/14/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >That's hard a good example of "one of your ideas" since other people >have had the idea before, you simply implemented it at O'Reilly. If >you had not, somebody else would have. Kind of a no-brainer, really. Interesting. First, you tell me that talk is cheap and that you would like me to DO something rather than just bringing up ideas. So, I do something -- bring it to fruition -- and you pooh-pooh it because someone else MIGHT have come up with the idea. It seems to me that you are going to great lengths (including being inconsistent) to avoid giving me credit for my efforts. >> Now YOU are hurling insults. > >No, I'm stating what I feel to be the facts. I don't like your ideas >and I think that they, for the most part, suck. To paraphrase one of your own messages to me, you are offering an opinion without any substantiation whatsoever. >> Jordan, while you seem to be good at doing releases and organizing >> development, you have not done well at promoting the platform. > >I think I've done as good a job as anyone could expect to do and I >also seriously doubt that you'd have done any better in my place, I believe that there is lots of room for differences of opinion in this area. >so this tangent is just more of your wild opinionating in action. So, it's OK if YOU "wildly opinionate" but not if I do (see above)? >I'm sure you'd have us all believe that since I didn't manage to beat >Linux and Microsoft singlehandedly, I somehow failed and should not >stand in the way of a real stud like yourself who knows how to walk >the walk. No; however, I do believe that everyone has strengths and weaknesses. While you have been good at orchestrating development, you have not been as strong at promotion or advocacy and should enlist someone who is stronger in those areas to do so. As I've already mentioned, I think that you have severely curtailed the rewards you stand to gain for your several years of effort by not doing this. > That's bull, just as has been your frequently-stated >assertion that I'm "allergic to serious advocacy and highly resistent >to new ideas." This has been my experience. Prove me wrong, please. >So far I've been very open to both, I've just been resistent to "rabid >advocacy" (and you can simply read my past postings on what >constitutes "rabid" given that you're so fond of referring to the mail >archives) Unfortunately, you seem to regard anything more passionate or aggressive than "lukewarm" as "rabid." This alone will cause Linux to eat FreeBSD's lunch, IMHO, since the success of Linux has fed on passion. >and I've been resistent to YOUR ideas. I like new ideas >just fine, but a crack smoking idea is still a crack smoking idea and >you seem to have a disproportionate number of those. Not being a crack smoker -- nor, in fact, a smoker of any substance -- I have no idea what sort of idea a "crack smoking" idea might be. However, some of the ideas which you have derided the most have been supported by people for whom you yourself profess respect. Perhaps you have a case of NIH ("Not Invented Here") syndrome. I'm sure you're familiare with the term. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 13:42: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3A4C37C55F for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:42:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E827D1C64; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:41:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:41:46 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Jeffrey J. Mountin" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Displacement of Blame[tm] Message-ID: <20000714164146.J4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <18783.963559169@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000714134159.04a0de20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714134159.04a0de20@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 02:01:52PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 02:01:52PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Perhaps you have a case of NIH ("Not Invented Here") syndrome. I'm > sure you're familiare with the term. Actually, it's a cousin of the NIH syndrome. It's called NI, "Not Invented." -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect, BOFH / Chimes, Inc. billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 13:57:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6104437B80D for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:57:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09191; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:57:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714141056.04b7e1d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:57:00 -0600 To: "Jason C. Wells" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Great Trademark Debate In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:29 PM 7/9/2000, Jason C. Wells wrote: >Once upon a time in the land of -chat there was a great debate regarding >the dire consequences of Walunt Creek owning the FreeBSD trademark. It >occured to an enterprising individual that this could hamper the >commercial acceptance of FreeBSD and therefore be the end of the OS and >the community. > >In the midst of the great trademark debate, with conspicous coincidence, >the enterprising individual happened upon a business opportunity. This >particular opportunity hinged precariously on the use of the FreeBSD >trademark. The debate heightened owing to the consequences faced by our >enterpriser. > >It seems that nothing ever became of this great and terrible issue of >Walnut Creek owning the Trademark. It seems that once the great debate >vanished, so did the enterpriser's contempory opportunity. Actually, the opportunity was lost because it was not possible to obtain a clear and unambiguous answer about the trademark. Investors backed out, and the opportunity to start a venture which would have contributed a LOT to FreeBSD was gone. We are regrouping, but a successful effort is much further from fruition than it would have been otherwise. [Many gratuitous insults and slanderous remarks deleted] I've waited to respond to your message when I was in a good mood, because you've been so nasty, vitriolic, and hostile. (I'm sitting outside on a gorgeous sunny day, under an awning, sipping a cool drink, listening to music, watching pretty girls go by, and finishing up a book chapter.) Say what you will, but I am doing good things for the platform and will continue to do so. Your nastiness won't stop me, nor will anything else short of making FreeBSD un-free. Go ahead and filter my messages if you will. In fact, if it prevents you from misinforming others about me and my work, so much the better. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 14: 0:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 313C237B80D for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:00:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09249; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:00:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714145815.049135c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:00:19 -0600 To: Bill Fumerola From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Displacement of Blame[tm] Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Jeffrey J. Mountin" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000714164146.J4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714134159.04a0de20@localhost> <18783.963559169@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000714134159.04a0de20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:41 PM 7/14/2000, Bill Fumerola wrote: >On Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 02:01:52PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >> Perhaps you have a case of NIH ("Not Invented Here") syndrome. I'm >> sure you're familiare with the term. > >Actually, it's a cousin of the NIH syndrome. It's called NI, >"Not Invented." So, you think Jordan has a "not invented" syndrome? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 14: 6:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9231537BA02 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:06:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7503F1C64; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:06:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:06:08 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Jeffrey J. Mountin" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Displacement of Blame[tm] Message-ID: <20000714170608.K4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714134159.04a0de20@localhost> <18783.963559169@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000714134159.04a0de20@localhost> <20000714164146.J4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000714145815.049135c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714145815.049135c0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 03:00:19PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 03:00:19PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >> Perhaps you have a case of NIH ("Not Invented Here") syndrome. I'm > >> sure you're familiare with the term. > > > >Actually, it's a cousin of the NIH syndrome. It's called NI, > >"Not Invented." > > So, you think Jordan has a "not invented" syndrome? No I think his (and mine, and others) attitude towards your "contributions" aren't because of NIH, it's because they're non-existant. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect, BOFH / Chimes, Inc. billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 15: 9:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18FC537C00E for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:09:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16065; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:44:02 -0400 Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA97732; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:09:02 GMT (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:09:02 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Displacement of Blame[tm] In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714145815.049135c0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > So, you think Jordan has a "not invented" syndrome? > > --Brett I think it's one of those biblical-type things. You know, the fishes were fishes, the trees were trees, and lo and behold jkh.pl started executing. Therefore, jkh.pl was not invented. It simply coalesced into existance. :-) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 15:16:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 141FE37B734; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:16:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@ymmv.com) Received: from mustang.ymmv.com (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10011; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:15:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714150103.04a3cc20@localhost> X-Sender: X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:15:50 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org From: Brett Subject: What's Important (Emulation, Security Advisories, Life, and Fun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm writing this message from a booth smack dab in the middle of Laramie's annual Jubilee Days street fair, surrounded by rodeo clowns, laughing children, pretty girls, music (currently a harper and guitarist on either side), and happy people with painted faces. We even have Internet in the booth this year, with all of the BSDs' logos proudly displayed, and are inviting all and sundry to come, check their e-mail, and chat. All of which puts the postings of the past week in good perspective. People sometimes forget that the BSDs, like everything else that's important in life, are about PEOPLE. It's not how much code you write, or how many PRs you submit, or how many clever hacks you take credit for (this, like most other methods of "keeping score," does not measure the value of ideas or of people). What's really important is how much people's lives are improved as a result of the platform being there. [I step away from the keyboard so that a clown -- I think there's someone I know under that costume! -- can safely douse me with a Super Soaker. Oooh, I'm shivering now, but it felt good and I'm finally dry enough to continue writing.] Fighting about ideas, instead of discussing them, hurts that fun. It also stunts the growth of the platform by demoralizing everyone (except those who take a perverse joy in conflict). Attempting to drive away people who are trying to advance and evangelize the platform hurts not only the project but those who would have been reached. And allowing people-hostile agendas -- such as the poisonous spite of the FSF and Richard Stallman's almost unfathomable bitterness -- to undermine more friendly ones and do their hurtful damage is worst of all. Which is why the vitriol I've seen on the lists during the past week disturbed me so much. The people behind the BSDs are known for their fierce individualism and opinionated nature, but to attack an idea out of hostility for the person who advanced it, rather than on its own merits, crosses the line into destructive name calling and bickering. There is such a thing as tasteful repartee, but when it goes beyond blowing off steam and begins to be hurtful it's inappropriate and destructive. I've seen that line crossed several times this week, by people who I would hope would know better, and it saddens me. It is also disturbing that people are filtering postings by author, rather than according to interests, and boasting that they are doing so -- apparently taking pride in ad hominem filtering of ideas and content. This is not the way that things should be, people. Disagreement and healthy discussion are fine, but to attempt to squelch ideas with which one does not agree is not. Ego also appears to play a destructive role here when it should not. For example, my remarks about Linux emulation apparently put Jordan on the defensive. Having embraced it as a strategy, he seems to have taken it personally when it was pointed out (and not just by me; Dann Lunsford started the discussion) that this strategy has harmed platforms in the past and was in fact a key factor in the demise of OS/2. None of those remarks were intended as a personal attack on Jordan, and yet he took the matter very personally and responded with personal attacks directed at me. In fact, Jordan has a tendency to take any critical remark -- even if it's constructive criticism -- as either a personal affront or as a challenge to his position as nominal leader of the development effort. There is no call for this. What matters is, again, the benefits which people gain from the platform. Because emulation compromises the success of the platform and thus the good it can do, it is valid to critique emulation as a strategy. This is what matters, not personal pride, or ego, or NIH. These problems were even more obvious in the discussion regarding the subject lines of security advisories affected FreeBSD ports. My messages pointing out the problem were supported by many similar ones and many positive suggestions. But a few flamers -- again, either due to ego or ad hominem considerations -- turned what should have been a few messages and suggestions into an acerbic flame-fest. If there's any challenge for the BSDs -- not just FreeBSD, but all of them -- it's conquering these problems and making the projects inclusive and fun. Too many bright and talented people who are now cornerstones of the Linux world have been driven away from the BSDs by the unnecessary conflicts I've mentioned here. Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I think that this can change and that the BSDs can achieve success commensurate with their technical merit and the ethical nature of their licensing. I'm doing my part; I've undertaken substantial financial risk and have engaged in efforts to promote the BSDs which go far beyond what people on these groups know about. I wouldn't make such an investment, or persist in the time-consuming discussions on these groups, if I were not optimistic about the likelihood of overcoming these problems. Go ahead and shoot at me if you will; nitpick about the style of my messages; attempt to drive me away with insults. All you'll do is prove that you care more about winning some petty battle than in advancing the platform and maximizing the good it does for everyone. And now, I'm going to take a much-needed break from writing and find myself some food. And maybe a Super Soaker. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 16: 4:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DF87837BAFC for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:04:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 19789 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2000 23:04:30 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 14 Jul 2000 23:04:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 12848 invoked by uid 211); 14 Jul 2000 23:04:28 -0000 Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 04:34:28 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Displacement of Blame[tm] Message-ID: <20000715043428.A12814@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714145815.049135c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@hiwaay.net on Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 10:09:02PM +0000 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm no expert on the deeper issues surrounding FreeBSD development and advocacy, but Brett Glass is certainly an interesting psychological phenomenon. I glanced through the thread on -security, out of curiosity. For once, Brett said something I agree with. There is a real problem when people attribute security problems in ports to FreeBSD itself. I don't know the solution and don't intend to jump in with suggestions now. But it looks like Brett doesn't know when he's made his point clear. He can't stand disagreement. If people disagree, he repeats himself. If people continue to disagree, his answer is to get more and more personal in his criticisms of them. Also, no matter what the original topic of the thread was, Brett will always find a way to bring Richard Stallman's name into it, somewhere, somehow. Psychiatrists probably have a term for this condition, but I don't know what it is. I don't doubt Brett's sincerity in raising all these "issues", but I can fully sympathise with the people who filter him out... Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 16:59:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 807C637C0D6 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:59:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10926; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:59:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714175801.04a0ddb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:59:11 -0600 To: Kris Kirby From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Displacement of Blame[tm] Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714145815.049135c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:09 PM 7/14/2000, Kris Kirby wrote: >I think it's one of those biblical-type things. You know, the fishes were >fishes, the trees were trees, and lo and behold jkh.pl started executing. >Therefore, jkh.pl was not invented. It simply coalesced into existance. >:-) Gee, and all this time I thought pearls coalesced around... Oh, never mind. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 16:59:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D70237C5C6 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:59:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10923; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:59:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714175439.04a0bdd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:57:28 -0600 To: Bill Fumerola From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Displacement of Blame[tm] Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Jeffrey J. Mountin" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000714170608.K4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714145815.049135c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000714134159.04a0de20@localhost> <18783.963559169@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000714134159.04a0de20@localhost> <20000714164146.J4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000714145815.049135c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:06 PM 7/14/2000, Bill Fumerola wrote: >No I think his (and mine, and others) attitude towards your >"contributions" aren't because of NIH, it's because they're >non-existant. Unless, of course, you thought of the same one. I hope you're through hurling pointless insults now. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 17: 7:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDD0037C683 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:07:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11015; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:06:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714180022.04a0a530@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:06:48 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Displacement of Blame[tm] In-Reply-To: <20000715043428.A12814@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714145815.049135c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:04 PM 7/14/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >But it looks like Brett doesn't know when he's made his point clear. >He can't stand disagreement. Not so. In fact, I enjoy working out disagreements. What I do NOT enjoy is when folks hurl insults for no reason, which some people seem to do whenever they disagree. > If people disagree, he repeats himself. Only if people restate what I said in a way which indicates that they did not UNDERSTAND what I said. >If people continue to disagree, his answer is to get more and more >personal in his criticisms of them. I don't introduce personal criticisms. I do, however, criticize ideas; and I do point out when people are arguing ad hominem or making unwarranted personal attacks. >Also, no matter what the original topic of the thread was, Brett will >always find a way to bring Richard Stallman's name into it, somewhere, >somehow. Not always. He does seem to rear his head a great deal in discussions about advocacy, however, since one of the reasons I advocate the use of the BSDs is because they are necessary to defuse the FSF's nastiness. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 17:20:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9C7E37B631 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:20:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22857 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:21:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: OK, I admit I blew it... Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:21:14 -0700 Message-ID: <22853.963620474@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The whole thread with Brett is an embarassment I'm willing to own up to playing a significant part in. Any lack of esteem I might have had for his opinions should have stayed in my brain, where they belong, nor should I have ever even read the postings in the first place - I truly do know better than that and I screwed the pooch anyway. My apologies to anyone I offended. I'm also now taking the suggestion which many people have made to heart. I do hereby promise, quite publically and openly, to avoid any and all future interaction with Brett Glass in the name of the public good (to say nothing of my own sanity). Procmail will help to provide the self-control I so clearly lacked in this instance. This is a strictly win-win policy for all of us anyway since, should Brett ever have any suggestions which are of value to the FreeBSD project, I'm sure he'll get other people to champion them (as they would any good idea) and I'll hear about them in any case. Procmail is a semi-permeable membrane when it comes to truly good suggestions. :) Regards, - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 17:26:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2635B37B646 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:26:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@ymmv.com) Received: from mustang.ymmv.com (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11211; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:26:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714182432.049fc270@localhost> X-Sender: brett@ymmv.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:26:20 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Subject: Re: OK, I admit I blew it... In-Reply-To: <22853.963620474@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:21 PM 7/14/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: ... >I'm also now taking the suggestion which many people have made to >heart. I do hereby promise, quite publically and openly, to avoid any >and all future interaction with Brett Glass in the name of the public >good (to say nothing of my own sanity). Procmail will help to provide >the self-control I so clearly lacked in this instance. Jordan, isn't this just avoiding the problem rather than addressing it? How about an actual reconciliation rather than avoidance? We travel in too many of the same circles to make the latter feasible. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 17:47:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EDA137BA69 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:47:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e6F0l2W22102; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:47:02 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Brett Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! Message-ID: <20000714174702.Q25571@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <22853.963620474@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000714182432.049fc270@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714182432.049fc270@localhost>; from brett@ymmv.com on Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 06:26:20PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Brett [000714 17:27] wrote: > At 06:21 PM 7/14/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > ... > > >I'm also now taking the suggestion which many people have made to > >heart. I do hereby promise, quite publically and openly, to avoid any > >and all future interaction with Brett Glass in the name of the public > >good (to say nothing of my own sanity). Procmail will help to provide > >the self-control I so clearly lacked in this instance. > > Jordan, isn't this just avoiding the problem rather than addressing it? > How about an actual reconciliation rather than avoidance? We travel > in too many of the same circles to make the latter feasible. This whole thing reminds me of the "HELP HELP I'M BEING REPRESSED" scene from Holy Grail. It's amusing but if I had to see it every day I'd shoot myself. Brett, drop it and go away. It's tired, old and annoying, and has been that way for as long as I can remember. thanks, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 19:18:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (chilled.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D17A137BA88 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:18:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02222 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:18:32 +1200 (NZST) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:18:32 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: changing a name server at INTERNIC Reply-To: dan@langille.org Message-ID: <397072B8.28133.2FFD772E@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Network Solutions (Internic) won't let me change the name of ns.freebsddiary.cx to ns1.unixatjome.org because ns1.unixathome.org is not registered. I try to register ns1.unixathome.org but it says 203.79.82.27 is already registered. And an IP address is required so I can't leave that field blank. Seems like a catch-22 to me. It looks like I must first delete ns.freebsddiary.cx then register ns1.unixathome.org. Sounds dodgy to me. Yet another lovely step in my NSI saga. Any clues? -- Dan Langille [I'm looking for more work] The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ FreshPorts - http://freshports.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 20:51:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bsdhome.dyndns.org (rdu25-22-120.nc.rr.com [24.25.22.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D592F37C1D6 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 20:51:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsd@bsdhome.com) Received: from vger.bsdhome.com (vger [192.168.220.2]) by bsdhome.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01272; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 23:51:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsd@bsdhome.com) Received: from localhost (bsd@localhost) by vger.bsdhome.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08858; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 23:51:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsd@vger.bsdhome.com) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 23:51:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Dean To: "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .gnu TLD In-Reply-To: <20000714070723.A62602@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 02:20:36PM -0700, a little birdie told me > > that Kris Kennaway remarked > > > On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Kris Kirby wrote: > > > > > > > > :www.free.bsd sounds nice. Can I get jamie.bsd? :) > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > Hey, I want kris.bsd! ;-) > > > > > > No. > > > > I can see someone will have to mediate this whole mess. > > > > But hey, as long as I get matt.bsd... > > Well, I want insane.bsd ;-) I can't resist ... I get bsd.bsd :) -Brian -- Brian Dean bsd@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 21:16:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E0C037B870 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:16:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Received: from localhost (lplist@localhost) by q.closedsrc.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id e6F4EN700579; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:14:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:14:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Brett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! In-Reply-To: <20000714174702.Q25571@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Did anyone mention Zoot? // Linh Pham // // Proud supporter of FreeBSD and OpenBSD // FreeBSD - http://www.freebsd.org // OpenBSD - http://www.openbsd.org /* "Oregon, n.: Eighty billion gallons of water with no place to go on Saturday night." */ On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Brett [000714 17:27] wrote: > > At 06:21 PM 7/14/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > ... > > > > >I'm also now taking the suggestion which many people have made to > > >heart. I do hereby promise, quite publically and openly, to avoid any > > >and all future interaction with Brett Glass in the name of the public > > >good (to say nothing of my own sanity). Procmail will help to provide > > >the self-control I so clearly lacked in this instance. > > > > Jordan, isn't this just avoiding the problem rather than addressing it? > > How about an actual reconciliation rather than avoidance? We travel > > in too many of the same circles to make the latter feasible. > > This whole thing reminds me of the "HELP HELP I'M BEING REPRESSED" > scene from Holy Grail. It's amusing but if I had to see it every > day I'd shoot myself. > > Brett, drop it and go away. It's tired, old and annoying, and has > been that way for as long as I can remember. > > thanks, > -Alfred > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 21:16:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cypherpunks.ai (cypherpunks.ai [209.88.68.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE22537B5C4 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:16:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeroen@vangelderen.org) Received: from vangelderen.org (intefix.ai [209.88.68.216]) by cypherpunks.ai (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21E484D; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:16:09 -0400 (AST) Message-ID: <396FE588.CFDB497D@vangelderen.org> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:16:09 -0400 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Dean Cc: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .gnu TLD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brian Dean wrote: > > On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 02:20:36PM -0700, a little birdie told me > > > that Kris Kennaway remarked > > > > On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Kris Kirby wrote: > > > > > > > > > > :www.free.bsd sounds nice. Can I get jamie.bsd? :) > > > > > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > Hey, I want kris.bsd! ;-) > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > I can see someone will have to mediate this whole mess. > > > > > > But hey, as long as I get matt.bsd... > > > > Well, I want insane.bsd ;-) > > I can't resist ... I get bsd.bsd :) Of course not! You get bsd@bsd . Hmm, come to think of it I'll adopt jeroen@asmod.ai. ;-> Cheers, Jeroen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 21:31: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cypherpunks.ai (cypherpunks.ai [209.88.68.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B363D37C21D for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:30:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeroen@vangelderen.org) Received: from vangelderen.org (intefix.ai [209.88.68.216]) by cypherpunks.ai (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178644D; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:30:58 -0400 (AST) Message-ID: <396FE901.6FF46B91@vangelderen.org> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:30:57 -0400 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: changing a name server at INTERNIC References: <397072B8.28133.2FFD772E@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > > Network Solutions (Internic) won't let me change the name of > ns.freebsddiary.cx to ns1.unixatjome.org because ns1.unixathome.org > is not registered. I try to register ns1.unixathome.org but it says > 203.79.82.27 is already registered. And an IP address is required so I > can't leave that field blank. Seems like a catch-22 to me. > > It looks like I must first delete ns.freebsddiary.cx then register > ns1.unixathome.org. > > Sounds dodgy to me. > > Yet another lovely step in my NSI saga. > > Any clues? Move your domain to any OpenSRS based registrar. This has two benefits: - web-based updates to your domain registrations - punish NSI for ripping you off and one drawback: - you need to purchase an additional one year of registration (~$12.50) Moving usually only takes a couple of days. I usually pay in e-gold and use http://domains.jhcloos.net/ . Highly recommended. Cheers, Jeroen PS. I'm somewhat related to both e-gold and Mr. Cloos. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 21:36:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (chilled.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F7037B5C4 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:36:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03028; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 16:35:57 +1200 (NZST) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 16:35:56 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: changing a name server at INTERNIC Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <397092EC.26585.307B4505@localhost> In-reply-to: <396FE901.6FF46B91@vangelderen.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15 Jul 2000, at 0:30, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > Dan Langille wrote: > > > > Network Solutions (Internic) won't let me change the name of > > ns.freebsddiary.cx to ns1.unixatjome.org because ns1.unixathome.org > > is not registered. I try to register ns1.unixathome.org but it says > > 203.79.82.27 is already registered. And an IP address is required so I > > can't leave that field blank. Seems like a catch-22 to me. > > > > It looks like I must first delete ns.freebsddiary.cx then register > > ns1.unixathome.org. > > > > Sounds dodgy to me. > > > > Yet another lovely step in my NSI saga. > > > > Any clues? Apart from swapping registrars. Yes, I'd love to. But... > Move your domain to any OpenSRS based registrar. This has > two benefits: > - web-based updates to your domain registrations > - punish NSI for ripping you off > > and one drawback: > - you need to purchase an additional one year of > registration (~$12.50) That is the one thing which prevents me from swapping registrars. but thanks. -- Dan Langille [I'm looking for more work] The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ FreshPorts - http://freshports.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 14 22:16:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 747B337BC11 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:16:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-4-84.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.84]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id e6F5GlZ30842; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:16:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA53433; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:16:05 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200007150516.AAA53433@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Displacement of Blame[tm] In-reply-to: Message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" of "Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:19:29 PDT." <18783.963559169@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:16:05 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: [...] > I think I've done as good a job as anyone could expect to do I have to disagree here. I think Jordan has done a *far better* job than anyone could have expected. Without Jordan (and others), FreeBSD would be what? NetBSD? OpenBSD? 386BSD? Linux? IMHO much of the "soul" of FreeBSD mimics Jordan. Jordan doesn't appear to be a Bible Thump'n Preacher (I understand the "fairings" references, but one on guns is a head scratcher). FreeBSD isn't a Bible Thump'n OS. If thats what one wants then there is plenty of Thump'n in Linux. But more in OpenBSD than FreeBSD. Some people won't buy a particular car or make because the commodity auto parts stores don't stock parts for it. Which would you rather have, a popular car that falls apart but has cheap and easy to get parts, or a reliable unpopular car that isn't in constant need of repair? I believe FreeBSD is that reliable OS, and Windows is the OS to guarantee lifetime employment to Windows Mechanics. Its also my belief that Windows is the yardstick Linux uses to measure itself. FreeBSD uses their own yardstick, but is not blind to what others are doing, just not bound to do something Just Because Bill Is Doing It. I like the path FreeBSD is taking. I also like my reliable computer. For all of the shouting that has been going on, BSDi is off quietly Doing The Right Thing. Apple too. A year from now I expect Apple's choice of FreeBSD for the Un*x base of Darwin and Mac OS X is going to be nothing but win, win, win, for FreeBSD. Jordan, keep up the good work. And see if you can't quietly talk Apple into porting all of MacOS to FreeBSD... :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 0: 5: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.babug.org (agora.babug.org [205.166.121.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB52637B688 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:05:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.babug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.babug.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA32924 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:05:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <200007150705.AAA32924@agora.babug.org> Subject: BAFUG Announce To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:05:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter, and Retail notice. This is posted on the first of the month. If there are any questions please send them to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Thanks *** JOBS NOTICE *** San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. *** COUNTER NOTICE *** FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. *** RETAIL NOTICE *** Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. -- $Id: BafugAnnounce.txt,v 1.2 1999/10/01 07:10:24 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 1:20:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-a.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.2.221.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60BF537B79B for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 01:20:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Received: from localhost (bsdx@localhost) by turtle.looksharp.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA48558 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 04:20:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsdx@looksharp.net) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 04:20:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Adam To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .gnu TLD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Brian Dean wrote: >On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson wrote: >> > On Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 02:20:36PM -0700, a little birdie told me >> > that Kris Kennaway remarked >> > > On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Kris Kirby wrote: >> > > >> > > > > :www.free.bsd sounds nice. Can I get jamie.bsd? :) >> > > > > >> > > > > No. >> > > > >> > > > Hey, I want kris.bsd! ;-) >> > > >> > > No. >> > >> > I can see someone will have to mediate this whole mess. >> > >> > But hey, as long as I get matt.bsd... >> >> Well, I want insane.bsd ;-) > >I can't resist ... I get bsd.bsd :) Before anyone claims it, I believe jkh claimed jkh!jkh@jkh.jkh a few years ago. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 2:20:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCA8A37BDA8 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 02:20:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.7/nospam) with UUCP id LAA17516 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:20:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 3144987AE; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:18:16 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:18:16 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: changing a name server at INTERNIC Message-ID: <20000715111815.A79151@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <397072B8.28133.2FFD772E@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <397072B8.28133.2FFD772E@localhost>; from dan@langille.org on Sat, Jul 15, 2000 at 02:18:32PM +1200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Dan Langille: > It looks like I must first delete ns.freebsddiary.cx then register > ns1.unixathome.org. > Sounds dodgy to me. Sounds like NSI to me :-( > Any clues? After you're through this, go to www.gandi.net and transfer your domain to them. Much cheaper and better service (and running on FreeBSD & Linux, and run partly by a french FreeBSD committer). -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 5.0-CURRENT #80: Sun Jun 4 22:44:19 CEST 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 7:11:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4503A37B821 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 07:11:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Received: from localhost (lplist@localhost) by q.closedsrc.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id e6FE9mh03784; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 07:09:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 07:09:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: Adam Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: .gnu TLD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org bsdnotlinux.org has been claimed already... // Linh Pham // // Proud supporter of FreeBSD and OpenBSD // FreeBSD - http://www.freebsd.org // OpenBSD - http://www.openbsd.org /* "Oregon, n.: Eighty billion gallons of water with no place to go on Saturday night." */ On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Adam wrote: > On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Brian Dean wrote: > > >On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson wrote: > >> > On Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 02:20:36PM -0700, a little birdie told me > >> > that Kris Kennaway remarked > >> > > On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Kris Kirby wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > > :www.free.bsd sounds nice. Can I get jamie.bsd? :) > >> > > > > > >> > > > > No. > >> > > > > >> > > > Hey, I want kris.bsd! ;-) > >> > > > >> > > No. > >> > > >> > I can see someone will have to mediate this whole mess. > >> > > >> > But hey, as long as I get matt.bsd... > >> > >> Well, I want insane.bsd ;-) > > > >I can't resist ... I get bsd.bsd :) > > Before anyone claims it, I believe jkh claimed jkh!jkh@jkh.jkh a few years > ago. :) > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 11:26:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A104E37B5E3 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:26:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@nwlink.com) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA03647; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:38:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Linh Pham Cc: Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Linh Pham wrote: > Did anyone mention Zoot? All right! Stop Stop STOP! This could get way out of hand. Umm. What ways less than a duck? :) Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 11:41:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAAC937B560 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:41:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@nwlink.com) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA04933; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:53:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Linh Pham Cc: Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Linh Pham wrote: > > > Did anyone mention Zoot? > > All right! Stop Stop STOP! This could get way out of hand. > > Umm. What ways less than a duck? :) Oh dear! :s/ways/weighs/ Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 12: 0:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B2237B5C7 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:00:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18474; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:00:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000715125922.04e36830@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:59:47 -0600 To: "Jason C. Wells" , Linh Pham From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! Cc: Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:38 PM 7/15/2000, Jason C. Wells wrote: >Umm. What ways less than a duck? :) Why a duck? ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 12: 2:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 243AE37B613 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:01:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Received: from localhost (lplist@localhost) by q.closedsrc.org (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id e6FJ0NA04306; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:00:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:00:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000715125922.04e36830@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think it would be more appropriate to ask... what is the speed of a swallow. // Linh Pham // // Proud supporter of FreeBSD and OpenBSD // FreeBSD - http://www.freebsd.org // OpenBSD - http://www.openbsd.org /* "Oregon, n.: Eighty billion gallons of water with no place to go on Saturday night." */ On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:38 PM 7/15/2000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > >Umm. What ways less than a duck? :) > > Why a duck? ;-) > > --Brett > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 13:38:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1.gte.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 089DA37B6A1 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:38:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net (evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.146.5]) by smtppop1.gte.net with ESMTP ; id PAA3202942 Sat, 15 Jul 2000 15:34:29 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:37:10 -0700 (PDT) From: The Clark Family X-Sender: res03db2@orthanc.dsl.gtei.net To: David Scheidt Cc: James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pet Theory for World Domination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That bit-o-code seems to have a curse on it. Has anyone who's owned it done well? (Not that I remember, but then my memory isn't very long or detailed.) [RC] On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, David Scheidt wrote: > On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, James Howard wrote: > > :In message , The > :Clark Family writes: > :> > :> SCO bought UNIXWare from Novell didn't they? > : > :Yes. Also, wasn't this purchase made *during* the court proceedings? > > I think that was AT&T selling UNIX to Novell. My history is sort of fuzzy, > though. > > David > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 13:48:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0436937B6FC for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:48:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by klapaucius.zer0.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA45735; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:48:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) X-Authentication-Warning: klapaucius.zer0.org: gsutter set sender to gsutter@zer0.org using -f Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:48:15 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Dan Langille Cc: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: changing a name server at INTERNIC Message-ID: <20000715134815.B32922@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <396FE901.6FF46B91@vangelderen.org> <397092EC.26585.307B4505@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <397092EC.26585.307B4505@localhost>; from dan@langille.org on Sat, Jul 15, 2000 at 04:35:56PM +1200 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2000-07-15 16:35 +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > On 15 Jul 2000, at 0:30, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > > Dan Langille wrote: > > > > > > Network Solutions (Internic) won't let me change the name of > > > ns.freebsddiary.cx to ns1.unixatjome.org because ns1.unixathome.org > > > is not registered. I try to register ns1.unixathome.org but it says > > > 203.79.82.27 is already registered. And an IP address is required so I > > > can't leave that field blank. Seems like a catch-22 to me. > > > > Move your domain to any OpenSRS based registrar. This has > > two benefits: > > - web-based updates to your domain registrations > > - punish NSI for ripping you off > > > > and one drawback: > > - you need to purchase an additional one year of > > registration (~$12.50) > > That is the one thing which prevents me from swapping registrars. $12.50 is worth all this trouble to you? That's hardly a drawback, considering the amount you've spent just trying to get NSI's problems fixed. Suck it up and do the transfer. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter My reality check just bounced. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 13:57:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AAC937B6FC for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:57:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19186; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:57:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000715145330.04d309c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:57:32 -0600 To: The Clark Family From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Pet Theory for World Domination Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It seems to me that it's the trademark, more than the code, that has been the curse. Remember how the AT&T lawsuit started? It was filed after a new startup called BSD, Inc. began to advertise its products together with the phone number 1-800-ITS-UNIX. --Brett At 02:37 PM 7/15/2000, The Clark Family wrote: >That bit-o-code seems to have a curse on it. Has anyone who's owned it >done well? > >(Not that I remember, but then my memory isn't very long or detailed.) > >[RC] > >On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, David Scheidt wrote: > >> On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, James Howard wrote: >> >> :In message , The >> :Clark Family writes: >> :> >> :> SCO bought UNIXWare from Novell didn't they? >> : >> :Yes. Also, wasn't this purchase made *during* the court proceedings? >> >> I think that was AT&T selling UNIX to Novell. My history is sort of fuzzy, >> though. >> >> David >> >> >> >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >> > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 14: 0:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (chilled.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BEDE37B779 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09451; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 09:00:24 +1200 (NZST) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: Gregory Sutter Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 09:00:22 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: changing a name server at INTERNIC Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <397179A6.254.3400C812@localhost> In-reply-to: <20000715134815.B32922@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <397092EC.26585.307B4505@localhost>; from dan@langille.org on Sat, Jul 15, 2000 at 04:35:56PM +1200 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15 Jul 2000, at 13:48, Gregory Sutter wrote: > On 2000-07-15 16:35 +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > > On 15 Jul 2000, at 0:30, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > > > Dan Langille wrote: > > > > > > > > Network Solutions (Internic) won't let me change the name of > > > > ns.freebsddiary.cx to ns1.unixatjome.org because ns1.unixathome.org > > > > is not registered. I try to register ns1.unixathome.org but it says > > > > 203.79.82.27 is already registered. And an IP address is required so > > > > I can't leave that field blank. Seems like a catch-22 to me. > > > > > > Move your domain to any OpenSRS based registrar. This has > > > two benefits: > > > - web-based updates to your domain registrations > > > - punish NSI for ripping you off > > > > > > and one drawback: > > > - you need to purchase an additional one year of > > > registration (~$12.50) > > > > That is the one thing which prevents me from swapping registrars. > > $12.50 is worth all this trouble to you? It's not just US$12.50 AFAIK. There are ten domains in question. And that's not much money if one has lots of money in the first place. I do not have such money. Having had only 2 months of paid work in the past ten, it is an expense I an not prepared to meet right now. > That's hardly a drawback, > considering the amount you've spent just trying to get NSI's > problems fixed. Suck it up and do the transfer. My time is free. However frustrating it may be to deal with NSI, it's about my only option. My bank account is empty. If I'd worked all of the past 6 or 7 months, I'd not be hesitating. But having barely kept my house over the past year, I'd rather not spend money if I can avoid it. -- Dan Langille [I'm looking for more work] The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ FreshPorts - http://freshports.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 14:10:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3.gte.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 536D137B6FC; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:10:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net (evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.146.5]) by smtppop3.gte.net with ESMTP ; id QAA3239151 Sat, 15 Jul 2000 16:09:07 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:09:30 -0700 (PDT) From: The Clark Family X-Sender: res03db2@orthanc.dsl.gtei.net To: Brett Glass Cc: David Scheidt , Kris Kennaway , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We have a FreeBSD emulator. Its called NetBSD. [RC] On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:54 PM 7/6/2000, David Scheidt wrote: > > >Only because no one has written a BSD licensed replacement for them. I'm > >sure that if someone would supply them, they'd get committed. > > Duplicating all of the idiosyncrasies of the Linux libraries would > require a "clean room" approach, so it would take at least two people -- > not one. Also, ongoing "clean rooming" would be necessary to accommodate > changes to Linux as they came. > > All of this would be a waste of effort compared to writing a *BSD* emulator > that would run on many platforms and get us more native ports. Making a > better Linux emulator is counterproductive. The better Linux emulation is > on BSD, the less likely it is that FreeBSD will get native ports of key > applications. > > --Brett > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 14:10:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9AAF37B7F3 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:10:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by klapaucius.zer0.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA46132; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:10:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) X-Authentication-Warning: klapaucius.zer0.org: gsutter set sender to gsutter@zer0.org using -f Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:10:31 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Dan Langille Cc: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: changing a name server at INTERNIC Message-ID: <20000715141031.D2807@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <397092EC.26585.307B4505@localhost>; <20000715134815.B32922@klapaucius.zer0.org> <397179A6.254.3400C812@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <397179A6.254.3400C812@localhost>; from dan@langille.org on Sun, Jul 16, 2000 at 09:00:22AM +1200 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2000-07-16 09:00 +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > On 15 Jul 2000, at 13:48, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On 2000-07-15 16:35 +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > > > On 15 Jul 2000, at 0:30, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > > > > Dan Langille wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Network Solutions (Internic) won't let me change the name of > > > > > ns.freebsddiary.cx to ns1.unixatjome.org because ns1.unixathome.org > > > > > is not registered. I try to register ns1.unixathome.org but it says > > > > > 203.79.82.27 is already registered. And an IP address is required so > > > > > I can't leave that field blank. Seems like a catch-22 to me. > > > > > > > > Move your domain to any OpenSRS based registrar. This has > > > > two benefits: > > > > - web-based updates to your domain registrations > > > > - punish NSI for ripping you off > > > > > > > > and one drawback: > > > > - you need to purchase an additional one year of > > > > registration (~$12.50) > > > > > > That is the one thing which prevents me from swapping registrars. > > > > $12.50 is worth all this trouble to you? > > It's not just US$12.50 AFAIK. There are ten domains in question. And > that's not much money if one has lots of money in the first place. I do not > have such money. Having had only 2 months of paid work in the past ten, > it is an expense I an not prepared to meet right now. > > > That's hardly a drawback, > > considering the amount you've spent just trying to get NSI's > > problems fixed. Suck it up and do the transfer. > > My time is free. However frustrating it may be to deal with NSI, it's I was referring to your international phone calls and long-distance faxes. That probably adds up to more than a domain transfer right there. > about my only option. My bank account is empty. If I'd worked all of > the past 6 or 7 months, I'd not be hesitating. But having barely kept my > house over the past year, I'd rather not spend money if I can avoid it. I can see how spending money right now is not your favorite thing. However, consider that NSI will bend you over and extract $35 per domain per year, which is considerably more than you'll pay at another registrar. What do you plan to do when freebsddiary.com is up for renewal? If you can't afford to transfer all the domains, then I suggest that as your domains near renewal time, you transfer them one-by-one. You'll have to deal with the name server issue in the meantime, but you'll be rid of NSI eventually. Also, if you need a spare name server to use so that you can de/reregister yours, I would be happy to provide name service for you from ns1.zer0.org for as long as it takes you to set NSI straight. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Bureaucrats cut red tape--lengthwise. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 14:37:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (chilled.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDC2737C74C for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:37:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09652; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 09:37:12 +1200 (NZST) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: Gregory Sutter Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 09:37:11 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: changing a name server at INTERNIC Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <39718247.19885.34227C06@localhost> In-reply-to: <20000715141031.D2807@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <397179A6.254.3400C812@localhost>; from dan@langille.org on Sun, Jul 16, 2000 at 09:00:22AM +1200 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15 Jul 2000, at 14:10, Gregory Sutter wrote: > I was referring to your international phone calls and long-distance > faxes. That probably adds up to more than a domain transfer right > there. That'll be one transfer. But not the rest. > > about my only option. My bank account is empty. If I'd worked all of > > the past 6 or 7 months, I'd not be hesitating. But having barely kept my > > house over the past year, I'd rather not spend money if I can avoid it. > > I can see how spending money right now is not your favorite thing. > However, consider that NSI will bend you over and extract $35 per > domain per year, which is considerably more than you'll pay at > another registrar. What do you plan to do when freebsddiary.com is > up for renewal? As each domain is up for renewal, I'll be transferring. > If you can't afford to transfer all the domains, then I suggest > that as your domains near renewal time, you transfer them one-by-one. > You'll have to deal with the name server issue in the meantime, but you'll > be rid of NSI eventually. Thanks. Already in the plans. > Also, if you need a spare name server to use so that you can > de/reregister yours, I would be happy to provide name service for > you from ns1.zer0.org for as long as it takes you to set NSI > straight. Thanks. Someone else suggested that option offlist. I'll send you an extract for your named.conf. -- Dan Langille [I'm looking for more work] The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ FreshPorts - http://freshports.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 15:19:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EA35D37B543 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 15:19:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 2479 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2000 22:19:40 -0000 Received: from du195.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.195) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 15 Jul 2000 22:19:40 -0000 Message-ID: <3970E35A.EB9EF25A@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 18:19:06 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , Linh Pham , Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000715125922.04e36830@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 12:38 PM 7/15/2000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > >Umm. What ways less than a duck? :) > > Why a duck? ;-) Why a fence? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 17:30: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C84D237B53E for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 17:29:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA20396; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 18:29:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000715182848.04e2ab90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 18:29:30 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , Linh Pham , Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3970E35A.EB9EF25A@mail.ptd.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000715125922.04e36830@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:19 PM 7/15/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >> >Umm. What ways less than a duck? :) >> >> Why a duck? ;-) > >Why a fence? I don't know; the fence was mysteriously stolen. And I can't figure out why anyone would take a fence. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 17:52:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5A9F37B5AA; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 17:52:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA07835; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 02:52:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Brett Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's Important (Emulation, Security Advisories, Life, and Fun) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000714150103.04a3cc20@localhost> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Jul 2000 02:52:30 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brett's message of "Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:15:50 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett writes: > [blablabla] Can you please stick to *one* address so I don't have to update my killfile all the time? Sheesh. Plonk. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 17:54:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CE7037B587 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 17:54:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA07856; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 02:54:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: Linh Pham , Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Jul 2000 02:54:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells"'s message of "Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:38:16 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" writes: > Umm. What weighs less than a duck? :) Half a duck? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 17:57:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2272437B621 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 17:57:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA07869; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 02:57:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: dan@langille.org Cc: Gregory Sutter , "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: changing a name server at INTERNIC References: <397092EC.26585.307B4505@localhost> <397179A6.254.3400C812@localhost> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Jul 2000 02:57:37 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Dan Langille"'s message of "Sun, 16 Jul 2000 09:00:22 +1200" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Dan Langille" writes: > It's not just US$12.50 AFAIK. There are ten domains in question. And > that's not much money if one has lots of money in the first place. I do not > have such money. Having had only 2 months of paid work in the past ten, > it is an expense I an not prepared to meet right now. The FreeBSD Diary is quite a valuable resource for FreeBSD users, especially fresh converts. Have you tried asking BSDi for support? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 17:59:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16EB937B621 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 17:59:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA07877; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 02:59:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: David Kelly Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Displacement of Blame[tm] References: <200007150516.AAA53433@nospam.hiwaay.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Jul 2000 02:59:45 +0200 In-Reply-To: David Kelly's message of "Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:16:05 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly writes: > [...] (I understand the > "fairings" references, but one on guns is a head scratcher). Somebody posted an URL to that one once; unfortunately, I don't have one at hand. Maybe someone else who reads this list does... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 18:53:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF6E737B686 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 18:53:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.88.33]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000716015326.FVXV16423.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 02:53:26 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA04092; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 02:50:18 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 02:50:18 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Brett Glass Cc: "Thomas M. Sommers" , "Jason C. Wells" , Linh Pham , Alfred Perlstein , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! Message-ID: <20000716025018.I241@parish> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000715125922.04e36830@localhost> <3970E35A.EB9EF25A@mail.ptd.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000715182848.04e2ab90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000715182848.04e2ab90@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Jul 15, 2000 at 06:29:30PM -0600 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jul 15, 2000 at 06:29:30PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:19 PM 7/15/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > >> >Umm. What ways less than a duck? :) > >> > >> Why a duck? ;-) > > > >Why a fence? > > I don't know; the fence was mysteriously stolen. > > And I can't figure out why anyone would take a fence. > In a world without fences, there's no need for Gates. (Scott McNealy, IIRC) > --Brett > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- If I buy a copy of WinDelete, and it doesn't delete Windows, am I entitled to my money back? ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 19: 9:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2023237B558 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 19:09:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA63286; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 11:38:07 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 11:38:07 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Travis Cole Cc: David Scheidt , James Howard , The Clark Family , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BSD wars again (was: Pet Theory for World Domination) Message-ID: <20000716113807.D57098@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200007140329.XAA28932@rac10.wam.umd.edu> <20000714074904.A30544@nihilist.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000714074904.A30544@nihilist.org> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 14 July 2000 at 7:49:04 -0700, Travis Cole wrote: > On Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 11:56:57PM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: >> On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, James Howard wrote: >> >> :In message , The >> :Clark Family writes: >> :> >> :> SCO bought UNIXWare from Novell didn't they? >> : >> :Yes. Also, wasn't this purchase made *during* the court proceedings? >> >> I think that was AT&T selling UNIX to Novell. My history is sort of fuzzy, >> though. > > Yeah, thats right. AT&T were they guys going after BSD, and when they > sold UNIX to Novell that pretty much put a stop to it. Well, as Dennis Ritchie pointed out, it was USL, not AT&T, who instigated the law suit. They were a daughter of AT&T, but AT&T corporate management was not involved. > But by that time BSD was mostly UNIX code free anyway. It was before the lawsuit as well. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 19:11:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 655FC37B52A for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 19:11:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA64419; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 11:40:47 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 11:40:47 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: The Clark Family , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BSD wars (was: Pet Theory for World Domination) Message-ID: <20000716114046.E57098@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000715145330.04d309c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000715145330.04d309c0@localhost> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 15 July 2000 at 14:57:32 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:37 PM 7/15/2000, The Clark Family wrote: >> On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, David Scheidt wrote: >>> On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, James Howard wrote: >>> >>>> In message , The Clark Family writes: >>>>> >>>>> SCO bought UNIXWare from Novell didn't they? >>>> >>>> Yes. Also, wasn't this purchase made *during* the court proceedings? >>> >>> I think that was AT&T selling UNIX to Novell. My history is sort of fuzzy, >>> though. >> >> That bit-o-code seems to have a curse on it. Has anyone who's owned it >> done well? >> >> (Not that I remember, but then my memory isn't very long or detailed.) > > It seems to me that it's the trademark, more than the code, that > has been the curse. Remember how the AT&T lawsuit started? It was > filed after a new startup called BSD, Inc. began to advertise its > products together with the phone number 1-800-ITS-UNIX. That's how it started, but it's not the subject of the lawsuit. The "ITS-UNIX" thing was settled before the lawsuit began. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 19:26:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565AF37B5DC for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 19:26:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA70791; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 11:55:59 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 11:55:59 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jamie Bowden Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vinum Message-ID: <20000716115559.G57098@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 14 July 2000 at 6:58:03 -0700, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > Hey Grog, > > Is this intentional on your part? I suspect it is, but I thought I would > ask. > > hahaha > I get it... :) > bishop, get what? > the joke in the name "vinum." > I'd never heard of it before... > Oh. There's a joke in it? Care to clue me in? > * Ragnar_ wonders if Grog knows this. > vinum is latin for "wine." > veritas is latin for "truth." > "in wine there is truth." > Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh. > Takes a classics afficionado to figure it out, I guess. :D > > I congratulate you on your wordplay sir, if that were intentional. Thanks. As Ollivier remarks, this statement ("in vino veritas") is the origin of the name. If you're interested, check out the meaning of these magic numbers (in /usr/src/sys/dev/vinum/vinumvar.h): #define VINUM_MAGIC 22322600044678729LL /* should be this */ #define VINUM_NOMAGIC 22322600044678990LL /* becomes this after obliteration */ Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 19:37:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD85F37B6EC for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 19:37:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA08198; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 04:37:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Greg Lehey Cc: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vinum References: <20000716115559.G57098@wantadilla.lemis.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Jul 2000 04:37:08 +0200 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Sun, 16 Jul 2000 11:55:59 +0930" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > #define VINUM_MAGIC 22322600044678729LL /* should be this */ "IN VINO" > #define VINUM_NOMAGIC 22322600044678990LL /* becomes this after obliteration */ "NO VINO" DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 20: 9:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1363537B5C1 for ; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 20:09:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.7/nospam) with UUCP id FAA00307 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 05:09:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 4A7AA87AE; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 03:42:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 03:42:33 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED! Message-ID: <20000716034233.A84618@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000715125922.04e36830@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from lplist@q.closedsrc.org on Sat, Jul 15, 2000 at 12:00:23PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Linh Pham: > I think it would be more appropriate to ask... what is the speed of a > swallow. The African or the European one? -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 5.0-CURRENT #80: Sun Jun 4 22:44:19 CEST 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 15 23:20:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0916737B904; Sat, 15 Jul 2000 23:20:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id IAA12196; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 08:20:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA83229; Sun, 16 Jul 2000 07:50:39 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from j) Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 07:50:39 +0200 From: J Wunsch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Core-team statement: fruitless discussions in the mailing lists Message-ID: <20000716075038.K71387@uriah.heep.sax.de> Reply-To: Joerg Wunsch Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="eAbsdosE1cNLO4uF" X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --eAbsdosE1cNLO4uF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Several members of the FreeBSD community approached us with different request regarding Brett Glass' behaviour in our mailing lists. For various reasons we do not want to `blacklist' anyone from using the FreeBSD mailing lists, but we remind everybody here to not contribute to fruitless and often off-topic discussions. --=20 cheers, J"org .-.-. --... ...-- -.. . DL8DTL http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) --eAbsdosE1cNLO4uF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia iQCVAwUBOXFNLnW7bjh2o/exAQFQTwP/UZrZKMaGHoW3nhK4lo8ZMELhsxx3T/mb ayvKmFvP+rf464582D7d1XHWzFWnu9jUDFe6YSoB4CbjZTx+HOaZM3Rr7m8IjMpW vn6G5Or8bbz1a+bslDhbExZi/dAcbcSBsiTEaem+DzlP7r4fJ7cH7j6JXT4IjNPs otYA9RT7SvY= =Jb/n -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --eAbsdosE1cNLO4uF-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message