From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 8 4: 5:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay2.inwind.it (relay2.inwind.it [212.141.53.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0C9637B66C for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 04:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bartequi.ottodomain.org (62.98.163.106) by relay2.inwind.it (5.1.046) id 39CB0979002E3B86; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 13:05:02 +0200 From: Salvo Bartolotta Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 12:06:02 GMT Message-ID: <20001008.12060200@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD? To: rob Cc: Mike Meyer , Matt Rudderham , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <39DF6263.FBCBA866@home.com> References: <14815.42726.976853.807442@guru.mired.org> <39DF6263.FBCBA866@home.com> X-Mailer: SuperCalifragilis X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [probably this is appropriate to -chat] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 10/7/00, 6:50:27 PM, rob wrote regarding Re:=20 Installing FreeBSD?: > I had to give cylinder numbers with OpenBSD. I sat there with a > calculator turning cylinders and sectors into Mb, but it gives you=20 lots > of time for really thinking about your partitioning :) Rob I had problems to install OpenBSD across 2 disks on my three HDs=20 workstation. I *had* to specify "head 1" in order to succeed. I seem=20 to understand that the OpenBSD-2.7 installer misinterprets disk=20 geometries, especially when dealing with complex layouts (eg 3 HDs and=20 a bunch of slices already present on the disks). Best regards, Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 8 6:24: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from netplex.com.au (adsl-64-163-195-99.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.163.195.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D957637B503 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 06:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netplex.com.au (peter@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netplex.com.au (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e98DNmG11370; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 06:23:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Message-Id: <200010081323.e98DNmG11370@netplex.com.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Brett Glass Cc: Jason Evans , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: politeness In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007165330.046fcea0@localhost> Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 06:23:48 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:41 PM 10/7/2000, Jason Evans wrote: > > >I have taken issue with a number of your emails in > >public and in private, and in every case, you have turned a blind eye and > >figured out various ways of contorting my email and interpreting it far > >outside the realm that reality allows mere mortals. > > Jason: > > I have searched my archives and have found only two messages from me with > "Jason Evans" or "jasone" in the To: field. One was public, the other > private. In both cases, I PARTIALLY disagreed with you on issues involving > advocacy and licensing. So? These are contentious issues and MANY people > disagree on them. I understood and respected your opinion, though I begged > to differ. And I think there was actually substantial common ground. > > If you'd like to resolve whatever differences you feel you have with me, > and aren't simply interested in flaming and deriding me in public, please > respond via private mail. Flames to /dev/null. Brett: can't you freaking READ??? He just told you he had restored the filter to /dev/null, yet you sent it anyway? -Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 8 7:12:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jasper.nighttide.net (jasper.nighttide.net [216.227.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8258637B503 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 07:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (darren@localhost) by jasper.nighttide.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14369 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 10:12:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 10:12:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Darren Henderson To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: politeness etc In-Reply-To: <200010081323.e98DNmG11370@netplex.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This whole thing is getting rather tiresome, between the childishness, the general piling on and the repetative nature of this paticular conversation, (it seems to occur monthly) one would think this list is populated by a group of churlish adolescents and teens rather then professional technical types. If someone rubs you the wrong way and just generally annoys you then just quietly ignore them. If someone is jumping up and down, saying they've added you to their filters blah blah (the equivalent of an 8 year old sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting "I can't hear you!"), ignore them. Save the rest of us the annoyance. Disagree with the arguments, suggestions, statements etc leave the personality issues elsewhere. ______________________________________________________________________ Darren Henderson darren@nighttide.net Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 8 7:49:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09B3E37B503 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 07:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parish ([62.255.97.66]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20001008144909.GEUI13676.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@parish> for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 15:49:09 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e98En2r02707 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 15:49:02 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 15:49:02 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: How to use IRC Message-ID: <20001008154902.H253@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can someone explain, or give me a URL, how to use IRC? I keep seeing it mentioned in the lists so thought I'd take a look. I've installed the ircatlite port but can't figure out how to set up the Server Settings. I've put irc.freebsd.org in the server: field but when I try to connect I get: * irc.freebsd.org : ERROR : Entry is not enough. You need * irc.freebsd.org : mail address I've put my e-mail address in the mail address: field but still I get this error. TIA -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 8 7:59: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C9837B503 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 07:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup573.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.21.61]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1620DF37; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 16:58:51 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 16:58:07 +0200 To: Darren Henderson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: politeness etc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:12 AM -0400 2000/10/8, Darren Henderson wrote: > Disagree with the arguments, suggestions, statements etc leave the > personality issues elsewhere. That would be nice. And as far as the majority of the people who've actually spoken up seem to have already stated, they've already added Brett to their filters, so they don't have to bother with him anymore. However, it appears that the situation has gotten so very bad that there are a number of others now complaining about him, and while they can filter out Brett himself, they can't filter out the complaints about him. Therefore, something needs to be done. The best thing would be for someone, somehow to convince Brett that he needs to make some changes in his life, so that he no longer causes these problems. But regardless, if Brett doesn't do something to solve this problem, it appears that others may be forced to solve it for him. That's the crux of this whole issue -- this is the "nasty, ugly, public warning" stage. If the problem doesn't get solved soon, we will likely proceed to the "amputate and get on with life" stage. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 8 9:24:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61FF537B502 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 09:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14428; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 10:24:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001008102130.046559f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 10:24:28 -0600 To: Peter Wemm From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: politeness Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200010081323.e98DNmG11370@netplex.com.au> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001007165330.046fcea0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Peter: Please reread his message carefully. He did NOT say that he'd turned on his filters yet. And why are you slamming me for seeking reconciliation? --Brett At 07:23 AM 10/8/2000, Peter Wemm wrote: >Brett: can't you freaking READ??? He just told you he had restored the >filter to /dev/null, yet you sent it anyway? > >-Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 8 13:47:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (hand.dotat.at [212.240.134.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64E5737B502; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 13:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.15 #3) id 13iNLu-000IBY-00; Sun, 08 Oct 2000 20:47:22 +0000 Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 20:47:22 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@freebsd.org, Tony Finch Subject: Re: How to use IRC Message-ID: <20001008204722.D12691@hand.dotat.at> References: <20001008154902.H253@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20001008154902.H253@parish> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: >Can someone explain, or give me a URL, how to use IRC? I keep seeing it >mentioned in the lists so thought I'd take a look. www.irchelp.org Tony. -- en oeccget g mtcaa f.a.n.finch v spdlkishrhtewe y dot@dotat.at eatp o v eiti i d. fanf@covalent.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 8 15:26:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3E237B66C; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 15:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a075.otenet.gr [212.205.215.75]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e98MP0L12543; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 01:25:01 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e98MPKa02823; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 01:25:20 +0300 (EEST) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 01:25:20 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How to use IRC Message-ID: <20001009012519.A2740@hades.hell.gr> References: <20001008154902.H253@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20001008154902.H253@parish>; from marko@FreeBSD.ORG on Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 03:49:02PM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 03:49:02PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > Can someone explain, or give me a URL, how to use IRC? I keep seeing > it mentioned in the lists so thought I'd take a look. > > I've installed the ircatlite port but can't figure out how to set up > the Server Settings. I've put irc.freebsd.org in the server: field but > when I try to connect I get: > > * irc.freebsd.org : ERROR : Entry is not enough. You need > * irc.freebsd.org : mail address > > I've put my e-mail address in the mail address: field but still I get > this error. This is an error that freebsd.org gives? I'd be highly surprised, since I use plain good ol' ircII and I do not get this error. It's most likely a problem specific to the client you're using. -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 8 22:51:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDCE337B503; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 22:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Sun, 8 Oct 2000 22:50:11 -0700 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e995pPu86287; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 22:51:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 22:51:25 -0700 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: Roman Shterenzon Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Check Point FW-1 Message-ID: <20001008225125.A25121@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20001008125715.T25121@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from roman@xpert.com on Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:03:08AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:03:08AM +0200, Roman Shterenzon wrote: > On Sun, 8 Oct 2000, Crist J . Clark wrote: > > > On Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 01:33:04PM -0400, Brian Reichert wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 10:57:37PM -0700, Craig Cowen wrote: > > > > The big cheeses at work want to use check point instead of ipf or any > > > > other open source solution. > > > > Can anybody help me with vunerabilities to this so that I can change > > > > thier minds? > > > > > > I found that Checkpoint 4.0 (this may have changed) doesn't do NAT > > > right; it uses NAT across _all_ interfaces, instead of letting you > > > pick one. > > > > Right, it determines whether to do NAT by source address, destination > > address, and destination port. Actually, it is not possible to do > > _anything_ per interface from the GUI. Wouldn't it be nice (and > > wouldn't you expect a firewall to be able) to block anything not > > destined for a small block of registered IPs at the external > > interface? Well, you can't put a rule to do that in the GUI. > > That's rule 0 - it does antispoofing stuff. > It's really simple. From the GUI. It's only simple if you have only a LAN behind the box. If you've got multiple, non-adjacent logical netblocks routed behind the box, it is non-trivial to setup the "built-in" antispoofing. > Now, does it have anything to do with FreeBSD-security? Not much anymore, redirected to -chat if anyone still cares. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 9 11: 8:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gray.westgate.gr (gray.westgate.gr [212.205.119.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5052C37B670; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 11:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from charon@localhost) by gray.westgate.gr (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e99I8GO09243; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:08:16 +0300 (EEST) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:08:16 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to use IRC Message-ID: <20001009210816.A9154@gray.westgate.gr> References: <20001008154902.H253@parish> <20001009012519.A2740@hades.hell.gr> <20001009182652.A252@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001009182652.A252@parish>; from marko@freebsd.org on Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 06:26:52PM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 06:26:52PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > > Hi guys, Hi Mark! > I originally installed ircat as it has a GTK interface which I figured > would make it easier for a numbskull like me :) Not so (and the ircat > website is in Japanese), so I installed ircii (which is what real men seem > to use) and this is what I get: > > % irc-4.4X > *** Connecting to port 6667 of server change.this.to.a.server > *** Unable to connect to port 6667 of server change.this.to.a.server: Unknown > +host > *** Use /SERVER to connect to a server You can pass command line args to the `irc' program. I customarily use it like this: % setenv IRCNAME 'Giorgos Keramidas' % irc keramida irc.freebsd.org The value of the environment variable IRCNAME is what others will see in IRC when they issue a /whois command for your nickname. > *** Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.freebsd.org > *** Looking up your hostname... > *** Found your hostname, cached > *** Checking Ident > *** No Ident response > *** Notice -- You need to install identd to use this server Some IRC servers require that a valid identd server is running on the client machine. It seems that irc.freebsd.org is one of them. To overcome this, I enabled identd in my /etc/inetd.conf by adding the following line (taken from /usr/src/etc/inetd.conf): auth stream tcp nowait root internal auth -r -f -n -o UNKNOWN -t 30 and restarted inetd. With the internal identd/auth service of FreeBSD's inetd, you can even fake that your real username is something else, by putting the username you want identd/auth to show in your ~/.fakeid file. I sometimes call up IRC like this: % echo charon > .fakeid % setenv IRCNAME charon % irc charon some.irc.server I think you get the major points to get you started with IRC now. Hope to see you soon on irc.freebsd.org ;-) -- Giorgos Keramidas, For my public pgp2 key: finger -l keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 9 12:57:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E78437B503 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA04236; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 14:57:06 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 14:57:06 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Kent Stewart Cc: Warner Losh , David Kelly , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: `time make buildworld' Message-ID: <20001009145705.B16050@futuresouth.com> References: <20001009141136.A16050@futuresouth.com> <200010080002.e9802ma83795@nospam.hiwaay.net> <200010091928.NAA14035@harmony.village.org> <39E22008.5AFEADA@urx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <39E22008.5AFEADA@urx.com>; from kstewart@urx.com on Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 12:44:08PM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Trim the CC's a bit and move over to -chat, we're so far off-topic for -stable I can see my house from here ;] On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 12:44:08PM -0700, a little birdie told me that Kent Stewart remarked > > Warner Losh wrote: > > > > In message <20001009141136.A16050@futuresouth.com> "Matthew D. Fuller" writes: > > : I have a 386 SX/20 with 4 megs running a fairly recent (~8 month old) > > : 2.1-STABLE. Last buildworld I did on it (over nfs to my workstation) > > : took approx. 11 days IIRC. I wouldn't even consider doing a buildworld > > : on it (80 meg drive... yum.) > > > > Just go and try to buy a 80MB hard drive these days. It is nearly > > impossible. Unless you want flash :-) > > I was reading info on Maxtor's size limiting option because of the > rash of 20+GB drives that FreeBSD thought were 2GB'ers. It turns out > that a single platter is now 15GB. *guh* Maybe its time to build my distributed mass-storage pool, wherein I buy a bunch of 30 gig drives, 1 per system, put the OS on 2 gigs of it, and NFS export the other 28 gigs, put big single files on them that I vn mount, and build the vn's into a big vinum fs. Muahahahahahahahaha! Nothing like RAID0 or 0+1 over a bunch of NFS partitions... -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 9 13:51:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE91F37B66C for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 13:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parish ([62.255.97.114]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20001009172705.UOYQ27285.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@parish>; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:27:05 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e99HQrE01556; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:26:53 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:26:52 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Tony Finch , Si , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How to use IRC Message-ID: <20001009182652.A252@parish> References: <20001008154902.H253@parish> <20001009012519.A2740@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001009012519.A2740@hades.hell.gr>; from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr on Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:25:20AM +0300 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:25:20AM +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On Sun, Oct 08, 2000 at 03:49:02PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > > Can someone explain, or give me a URL, how to use IRC? I keep seeing > > it mentioned in the lists so thought I'd take a look. > > > > I've installed the ircatlite port but can't figure out how to set up > > the Server Settings. I've put irc.freebsd.org in the server: field but > > when I try to connect I get: > > > > * irc.freebsd.org : ERROR : Entry is not enough. You need > > * irc.freebsd.org : mail address > > > > I've put my e-mail address in the mail address: field but still I get > > this error. > > This is an error that freebsd.org gives? I'd be highly surprised, since > I use plain good ol' ircII and I do not get this error. It's most > likely a problem specific to the client you're using. > Hi guys, Thanks for your replies. I checked out www.irchelp.org but, unless I missed something, I couldn't find an "Idiots guide to using IRC for the first time". I originally installed ircat as it has a GTK interface which I figured would make it easier for a numbskull like me :) Not so (and the ircat website is in Japanese), so I installed ircii (which is what real men seem to use) and this is what I get: % irc-4.4X *** Connecting to port 6667 of server change.this.to.a.server *** Unable to connect to port 6667 of server change.this.to.a.server: Unknown +host *** Use /SERVER to connect to a server [at this point I type ``/SERVER irc.freebsd.org''] *** Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.freebsd.org *** Looking up your hostname... *** Checking Ident *** Found your hostname *** No Ident response *** Notice -- You need to install identd to use this server *** Closing Link: m370-mp1-cvx3a.bre.ntl.com (Install identd) *** Connection closed from irc.freebsd.org: Remote end closed connection *** Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.freebsd.org *** Looking up your hostname... *** Found your hostname, cached *** Checking Ident *** No Ident response *** Notice -- You need to install identd to use this server *** Closing Link: m370-mp1-cvx3a.bre.ntl.com (Install identd) *** Connection closed from irc.freebsd.org: Remote end closed connection *** Unable to connect to server irc.freebsd.org *** Use /SERVER to connect to a server :-/ What should I be doing. > -- > Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 9 14:24:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.102.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1588637B66C; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 14:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e99LNXx00144; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 14:23:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 14:23:33 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: Mark Ovens Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Tony Finch , Si , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How to use IRC Message-ID: <20001009142333.A99948@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <20001008154902.H253@parish> <20001009012519.A2740@hades.hell.gr> <20001009182652.A252@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20001009182652.A252@parish>; from marko@FreeBSD.ORG on Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 06:26:52PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 06:26:52PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > *** No Ident response > *** Notice -- You need to install identd to use this server > *** Closing Link: m370-mp1-cvx3a.bre.ntl.com (Install identd) > :-/ What should I be doing. Install identd, or use the one built into inetd. There are options that prevent it from giving out real usernames, if you want. Matt -- Matthew Hunt * UNIX is a lever for the http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * intellect. -J.R. Mashey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 9 22:21:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lafontaine.cybercable.fr (lafontaine.cybercable.fr [212.198.0.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8936237B502 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 13574734 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2000 05:21:44 -0000 Received: from r220m132.cybercable.tm.fr (HELO cybercable.fr) ([195.132.220.132]) (envelope-sender ) by lafontaine.cybercable.fr (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 10 Oct 2000 05:21:44 -0000 Message-ID: <39E2A899.3BB2151C@cybercable.fr> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 07:26:49 +0200 From: Saad KADHI Organization: NEUROCOM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Check Point FW-1 References: <20001008125715.T25121@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20001008225125.A25121@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi there, "Crist J . Clark" wrote: > On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 01:03:08AM +0200, Roman Shterenzon wrote: > > On Sun, 8 Oct 2000, Crist J . Clark wrote: > > > > > On Sat, Oct 07, 2000 at 01:33:04PM -0400, Brian Reichert wrote: > > > > On Fri, Oct 06, 2000 at 10:57:37PM -0700, Craig Cowen wrote: > > > > > The big cheeses at work want to use check point instead of ipf or any > > > > > other open source solution. > > > > > Can anybody help me with vunerabilities to this so that I can change > > > > > thier minds? There are a "lot" of vulnerabilities in FireWall-1 that can scare the hell out of the big cakes (or was it cheeses ?) ;-). On security-focus.com, there are at least 5 vulnerabilities (for both 4.0 and 4.1) that I have tested myself and found to be working. Just go to www.security-focus.com and click on vulnerabilities and select Check Point Software from the drop-down menu. Look at the latest 5 vulnerabilities. Try them to make sure they are still working. Also, get a look @: http://www.dataprotect.com/bh2000/blackhat-fw1.html This is a very good paper about how to bypass FireWall-1 security checkings that was discussed during the black hat conf' in Las Vegas. If the above couldn't change their minds to IPF (this is REALLY a very good piece of firewall), then nothing would! HTH > > > > > > > > > I found that Checkpoint 4.0 (this may have changed) doesn't do NAT > > > > right; it uses NAT across _all_ interfaces, instead of letting you > > > > pick one. > > > > > > Right, it determines whether to do NAT by source address, destination > > > address, and destination port. Actually, it is not possible to do > > > _anything_ per interface from the GUI. Wouldn't it be nice (and > > > wouldn't you expect a firewall to be able) to block anything not > > > destined for a small block of registered IPs at the external > > > interface? Well, you can't put a rule to do that in the GUI. > > > > That's rule 0 - it does antispoofing stuff. > > It's really simple. From the GUI. > > It's only simple if you have only a LAN behind the box. If you've got > multiple, non-adjacent logical netblocks routed behind the box, it is > non-trivial to setup the "built-in" antispoofing. > > > Now, does it have anything to do with FreeBSD-security? > > Not much anymore, redirected to -chat if anyone still cares. > -- > Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-security" in the body of the message -- Saad KADHI -- Security Engineer --------------------------------- perl -e 'print ($myself=pack(c2,unpack(c,EOF)-3,(((hex(0x666)/6)-666)/2)-66+4), pack(c3,((int(exp(666)/10e287)+int(log(666)*2))*2)+10,int(crypt(ski,72)),oct(12)));' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 9 22:54:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from puck.firepipe.net (mcut-b-167.resnet.purdue.edu [128.211.209.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF1A37B502; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by puck.firepipe.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DBD391908; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:54:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:54:37 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: "Bruce A. Mah" Cc: Greg Lehey , Warner Losh , Poul-Henning Kamp , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libvgl bitmap.c keyboard.c main.c mouse.c simple.c text.c vgl.3 src/release/picobsd/tinyware/view view.c src/release/sysinstall keymap.c msg.c system.c termcap.c src/share/examples/libvgl demo.c src/share/man/man4 sysmouse.4 ... Message-ID: <20001010005437.T1067@puck.firepipe.net> Reply-To: Will Andrews References: <20001010101317.F87091@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200010082134.OAA07836@freefall.freebsd.org> <20001010101317.F87091@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200010100122.TAA16473@harmony.village.org> <20001010115603.D87663@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200010100501.e9A51K946843@bmah-freebsd-0.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200010100501.e9A51K946843@bmah-freebsd-0.cisco.com>; from bmah@FreeBSD.org on Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 10:01:20PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 10:01:20PM -0700, Bruce A. Mah wrote: > Just for the record, "deorbit burn sequence" is what you do to a > satellite when it's no longer useful and you don't want it cluttering up > space around the planet that it's orbiting. Like what's going to happen > to the Iridium satellites because no one wants to pay to keep them And Mir. -- Will Andrews - Physics Computer Network wench The Universal Answer to All Problems - "It has something to do with physics." -- Comic on door of Room 240, Physics Building, Purdue University To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 9 23:57:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5BDE37B503 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 439755730B; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 01:58:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 01:58:16 -0500 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: `time make buildworld' Message-ID: <20001010015816.A98888@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" References: <20001009141136.A16050@futuresouth.com> <200010080002.e9802ma83795@nospam.hiwaay.net> <200010091928.NAA14035@harmony.village.org> <39E22008.5AFEADA@urx.com> <20001009145705.B16050@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001009145705.B16050@futuresouth.com>; from fullermd@futuresouth.com on Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 02:57:06PM -0500 X-FreeBSD-Header: This is a subliminal message from the vast FreeBSD conspiracy project. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD peorth.iteration.net 4.1.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 4.1.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 02:57:06PM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller scribbled: | On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 12:44:08PM -0700, a little birdie told me | that Kent Stewart remarked | > Warner Losh wrote: | > > In message <20001009141136.A16050@futuresouth.com> "Matthew D. Fuller" writes: | Maybe its time to build my distributed mass-storage pool, wherein I buy a | bunch of 30 gig drives, 1 per system, put the OS on 2 gigs of it, and NFS | export the other 28 gigs, put big single files on them that I vn mount, | and build the vn's into a big vinum fs. | Muahahahahahahahaha! | Nothing like RAID0 or 0+1 over a bunch of NFS partitions... Umm...Do you mean reimplementing Coda? :) -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 10 4:48:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from slkcpop1.slkc.uswest.net (slkcpop1.slkc.uswest.net [206.81.128.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F3EF37B502 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 04:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9513 invoked by alias); 10 Oct 2000 11:48:07 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 9478 invoked by uid 0); 10 Oct 2000 11:48:06 -0000 Received: from badialup253.slkc.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (63.225.236.253) by slkcpop1.slkc.uswest.net with SMTP; 10 Oct 2000 11:48:06 -0000 Message-ID: <39E300FE.3510B43E@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 05:43:58 -0600 From: Joe Warner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd newbies , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Mysterious URL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greetings, Does anybody know why this URL: http://www.ihatelinux.com/ ..authenticates to microsoft.com? I don't hate Linux but was just wondering who did this and why. Cheers Joe -- FreeBSD = The Power to Serve ..Simply put = FreeBSD Rocks! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 10 4:54:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wormhole.bluestar.net (wormhole.bluestar.net [208.53.1.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DDED37B502 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 04:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsd.planetwe.com (bsd.planetwe.com [64.182.69.158]) by wormhole.bluestar.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e9ABstN13136; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 06:54:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from steve@localhost) by bsd.planetwe.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA09268; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 06:54:55 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from steve) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 06:54:55 -0500 From: Steve Price To: Joe Warner Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mysterious URL Message-ID: <20001010065455.C41961@bsd.planetwe.com> References: <39E300FE.3510B43E@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <39E300FE.3510B43E@uswest.net>; from jswarner@uswest.net on Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 05:43:58AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 05:43:58AM -0600, Joe Warner wrote: # Greetings, # # Does anybody know why this URL: # # http://www.ihatelinux.com/ # # ..authenticates to microsoft.com? # # I don't hate Linux but was just wondering who did this # and why. I can't say for sure, but the funny thing (to me at least) is that this appears to be hosted on BSD/OS according to NetCraft. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 10 4:56:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1665B37B502; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 04:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA32109; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:55:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Joe Warner Cc: freebsd newbies , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mysterious URL References: <39E300FE.3510B43E@uswest.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Oct 2000 13:55:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: Joe Warner's message of "Tue, 10 Oct 2000 05:43:58 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 37 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joe Warner writes: > Does anybody know why this URL: > > http://www.ihatelinux.com/ > > ..authenticates to microsoft.com? You mean it redirects HTTP requests to www.microsoft.com. Anybody can do that, it doesn't mean there's any relationship between Tim Fries (owner of the ihatelinux.com domain) and Microsoft. des@des ~% telnet www.ihatelinux.com http Trying 216.122.88.119... Connected to ihatelinux.com. Escape character is '^]'. GET / HTTP/1.1 Host: www.ihatelinux.com User-Agent: telnet Connection: close HTTP/1.1 302 Moved Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:51:30 GMT Server: Apache/1.3.1.1 SSL/1.15 PHP/4.0b2 Location: http://www.microsoft.com Connection: close Transfer-Encoding: chunked Content-Type: application/x-httpd-cgi 0 Connection closed by foreign host. (BTW, that box has a telnet server running) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 10 4:58:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4FD37B502 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 04:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA32129; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:58:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Steve Price Cc: Joe Warner , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mysterious URL References: <39E300FE.3510B43E@uswest.net> <20001010065455.C41961@bsd.planetwe.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Oct 2000 13:58:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: Steve Price's message of "Tue, 10 Oct 2000 06:54:55 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Steve Price writes: > I can't say for sure, but the funny thing (to me at least) is > that this appears to be hosted on BSD/OS according to NetCraft. It runs on some kind of web hosting service (www.vservers.com) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 10 6: 8:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.smed.com (smtp.smed.com [12.20.51.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B888737B66C; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 06:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpgate.shrmed.com (keymaster.smed.com [12.20.51.2]) by smtp.smed.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0314B161BC; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iesa14.shrmed.com (iesa14.shrmed.com [10.1.99.114]) by smtpgate.shrmed.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22458; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:08:08 -0400 From: Joe.Warner@smed.com Received: from Deimos.smed.com (unverified) by iesa14.shrmed.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with SMTP id ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:07:53 -0400 Received: by Deimos.smed.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id 85256974.0047F8E2 ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:06:07 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SMS To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd newbies , Joe Warner Message-Id: <85256974.0047F63D.00@Deimos.smed.com> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 07:08:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Mysterious URL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >You mean it redirects HTTP requests to www.microsoft.com. Yeah, exactly. I just used "authenticates" because I figured mostly everyone would know what I was talking about. Plus..(less typing). Steve Price writes: > I can't say for sure, but the funny thing (to me at least) is > that this appears to be hosted on BSD/OS according to NetCraft. Indeed. That's the one thing I forgot to check (netcraft). Joe |--------+-----------------------> | | Dag-Erling | | | Smorgrav | | | | | | | | | 10/10/00 | | | 05:55 AM | | | | |--------+-----------------------> >---------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: Joe Warner | | cc: freebsd newbies | | , | | freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, (bcc: Joe Warner/SMS) | | Subject: Re: Mysterious URL | >---------------------------------------------------------| Joe Warner writes: > Does anybody know why this URL: > > http://www.ihatelinux.com/ > > ..authenticates to microsoft.com? You mean it redirects HTTP requests to www.microsoft.com. Anybody can do that, it doesn't mean there's any relationship between Tim Fries (owner of the ihatelinux.com domain) and Microsoft. des@des ~% telnet www.ihatelinux.com http Trying 216.122.88.119... Connected to ihatelinux.com. Escape character is '^]'. GET / HTTP/1.1 Host: www.ihatelinux.com User-Agent: telnet Connection: close HTTP/1.1 302 Moved Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:51:30 GMT Server: Apache/1.3.1.1 SSL/1.15 PHP/4.0b2 Location: http://www.microsoft.com Connection: close Transfer-Encoding: chunked Content-Type: application/x-httpd-cgi 0 Connection closed by foreign host. (BTW, that box has a telnet server running) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 10 6: 9:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D379937B503; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 06:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA32464; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:09:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Joe.Warner@smed.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd newbies , Joe Warner Subject: Re: Mysterious URL References: <85256974.0047F63D.00@Deimos.smed.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Oct 2000 15:09:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: Joe.Warner@smed.com's message of "Tue, 10 Oct 2000 07:08:36 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joe.Warner@smed.com writes: > > You mean it redirects HTTP requests to www.microsoft.com. > Yeah, exactly. I just used "authenticates" because I > figured mostly everyone would know what I was talking > about. Plus..(less typing). Except that it means something totally different. > Steve Price writes: > > I can't say for sure, but the funny thing (to me at least) is > > that this appears to be hosted on BSD/OS according to NetCraft. > Indeed. That's the one thing I forgot to check (netcraft). It's hosted on vservers.com. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 10 13:35:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C132037B503; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p250.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.250]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA396036; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:31:42 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00290; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:39:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:39:20 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: Joe Warner Cc: freebsd newbies , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mysterious URL In-Reply-To: <39E300FE.3510B43E@uswest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > http://www.ihatelinux.com/ Btw, would you think it should be possible to register a ihatemicrosoft.com domain ? Maybe there is allready something like this.. H. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 10 13:36: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 735EE37B66C for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA04504; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:35:44 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:35:44 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: `time make buildworld' Message-ID: <20001010153544.A2894@futuresouth.com> References: <20001009141136.A16050@futuresouth.com> <200010080002.e9802ma83795@nospam.hiwaay.net> <200010091928.NAA14035@harmony.village.org> <39E22008.5AFEADA@urx.com> <20001009145705.B16050@futuresouth.com> <20001010015816.A98888@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001010015816.A98888@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 01:58:16AM -0500 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 01:58:16AM -0500, a little birdie told me that Michael C . Wu remarked > On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 02:57:06PM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller scribbled: > | On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 12:44:08PM -0700, a little birdie told me > | that Kent Stewart remarked > | > Warner Losh wrote: > | > > In message <20001009141136.A16050@futuresouth.com> "Matthew D. Fuller" writes: > | Maybe its time to build my distributed mass-storage pool, wherein I buy a > | bunch of 30 gig drives, 1 per system, put the OS on 2 gigs of it, and NFS > | export the other 28 gigs, put big single files on them that I vn mount, > | and build the vn's into a big vinum fs. > | Muahahahahahahahaha! > | Nothing like RAID0 or 0+1 over a bunch of NFS partitions... > > Umm...Do you mean reimplementing Coda? :) Possibly; I haven't had time to investigate all that Coda offers. But wouldn't that be less fun than doing some unholy hackery with vinum and vn's? -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 10 14:22:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.smed.com (smtp.smed.com [12.20.51.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D507237B502; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpgate.shrmed.com (keymaster.smed.com [12.20.51.2]) by smtp.smed.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405461637C; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:22:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iesa14.shrmed.com (iesa14.shrmed.com [10.1.99.114]) by smtpgate.shrmed.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA32145; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:22:15 -0400 From: Joe.Warner@smed.com Received: from Deimos.smed.com (unverified) by iesa14.shrmed.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with SMTP id ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:22:14 -0400 Received: by Deimos.smed.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id 85256974.00753A98 ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:20:27 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SMS To: Heiko Recktenwald Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd newbies , Joe Warner Message-Id: <85256974.00753878.00@Deimos.smed.com> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:22:58 -0600 Subject: Re: Mysterious URL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Uh huh-->http://www.ihatemicrosoft.com Joe |--------+-----------------------------> | | Heiko Recktenwald | | | | | | | | | 10/10/00 11:39 AM | | | | |--------+-----------------------------> >---------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: Joe Warner | | cc: freebsd newbies | | , | | freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, (bcc: Joe Warner/SMS) | | Subject: Re: Mysterious URL | >---------------------------------------------------------| > http://www.ihatelinux.com/ Btw, would you think it should be possible to register a ihatemicrosoft.com domain ? Maybe there is allready something like this.. H. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 10 19:27:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5585337B503 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:26:00 -0700 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9B2RFK00881 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:27:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:27:10 -0700 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Self-DOS Message-ID: <20001010192710.E25121@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here is a really fun way to DOS yourself. I wanted to run a process at reduced priority in the background, so I did, # nice -20 program args & At which point everything on the box just seemed to die. I got no prompt back. I could do the username an password on vty's, but again, no shell prompt would appear. A network login would establish the TCP connection and just hang. I could ping, hellava lotta good that does me. I eventually realized what I had done. I was using /usr/bin/nice syntax, but I had been in csh. In csh with its builtin nice, the above is interpreted as run program at a nice of '-20,' that is at a _rasied_ priority. I had effectively told the system to give the program every single damn clock cycle. The thing is, I ended up *cringe* hitting the reset button. I could not find a way to get in there to kill the program. I crossed my fingers (then uncrossed them) and did the three-finger M$ salute, but that did not even do it (and it's not disabled). The box came up fine, just a few extra seconds to do the fsck, but can anyone out there tell me how I could have recovered from this without the drastic measures I ended up taking? Thanks. Oh, and don't laugh too hard. I can't be the first to have done this. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 10 20: 6:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n37.san.rr.com (dt051n37.san.rr.com [204.210.32.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3EBE37B66C for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gorean.org (Studded@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n37.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA99693; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:06:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <39E3D91A.FC8A5485@gorean.org> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:06:02 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-100 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Self-DOS References: <20001010192710.E25121@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J . Clark" wrote: > > Here is a really fun way to DOS yourself. > ... using > ... csh. *chuckle* -- "The dead cannot be seduced." - Kai, "Lexx" Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 10 22: 9:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n37.san.rr.com (dt051n37.san.rr.com [204.210.32.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5387E37B66D for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gorean.org (Studded@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n37.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00587 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:09:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <39E3F600.40649557@gorean.org> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:09:20 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-100 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: New cvsweb procmail recipe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I decided that I'd like to have the cvsweb link that hoek's procmail recipe creates for FreeBSD cvs commit messages include the command to diff the new version against the previous version. So, after testing I added this new recipe to the little web page I put up with hoek's. You can find it at: http://doug.simplenet.com/cvsweb-procmail.html Comments welcome. Doug -- "The dead cannot be seduced." - Kai, "Lexx" Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 11 6:50:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D196437B671 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 06:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@knecht [141.44.21.3]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14562 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 15:49:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id PAA03232; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 15:49:57 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de: jesse set sender to jesse@cs.uni-magdeburg.de using -f To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Napster client that is capable of handling vorbis (ogg) files From: Roland Jesse Date: 11 Oct 2000 15:49:57 +0200 Message-ID: <0vsnq3trlm.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I just checked out ports/audio/vorbis (an open standard, license and patent free alternative to MP3). Converting some of my mp3 files and listening to them works like a charme. What doesn't seem to work, though, is sharing these files in napster. At least ports/audio/gnapster only accepts mp3 files. A quick dig into its source reveals that a patch to make it accept ogg files too is not trivial. Does anyone know of any napster client that is capable of handling vorbis (.ogg) files? Roland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 11 17:50:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 092B137B503 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 17:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA27010; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 17:50:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA7Aa4Q0; Wed Oct 11 17:50:47 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA10991; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 17:50:21 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200010120050.RAA10991@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Napster client that is capable of handling vorbis (ogg) files To: jesse@mail.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De (Roland Jesse) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:50:21 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <0vsnq3trlm.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> from "Roland Jesse" at Oct 11, 2000 03:49:57 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I just checked out ports/audio/vorbis (an open standard, license and > patent free alternative to MP3). Converting some of my mp3 files and > listening to them works like a charme. > > What doesn't seem to work, though, is sharing these files in > napster. At least ports/audio/gnapster only accepts mp3 files. A quick > dig into its source reveals that a patch to make it accept ogg files > too is not trivial. > > Does anyone know of any napster client that is capable of handling > vorbis (.ogg) files? Try GNUtella; it can do files without needing to look at their extension to tell what type they are. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 12 0:24: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kwanon.research.canon.com.au (kwanon.research.canon.com.au [203.12.172.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDD1137B502 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bellmann.research.canon.com.au (bellmann.research.canon.com.au [10.5.0.3]) by kwanon.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FAC08A897 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 07:33:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from elph.research.canon.com.au (elph.research.canon.com.au [203.12.174.253]) by bellmann.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id B66EF8B10 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:16:46 +1100 (EST) Received: from elph.research.canon.com.au (elph.research.canon.com.au [203.12.174.253]) by elph.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74BFB206 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:23:10 +1100 (EST) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:23:10 +1100 (EST) From: Iain Templeton To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: The breaking news story... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmm, its 18:21 on the 12th of October here (UTC+1100), and yet no sign of the "Breaking News Story". The Perils of living so far ahead of the US... I guess I'll now get to read it Friday the 13th Ah well back to work. Iain Sorry, I'm procrastinating against reading patents. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 12 3:46:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9238D37B503 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 03:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA42896; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:46:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Iain Templeton Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The breaking news story... References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 12 Oct 2000 12:46:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: Iain Templeton's message of "Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:23:10 +1100 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Iain Templeton writes: > Hmm, its 18:21 on the 12th of October here (UTC+1100), and yet no sign > of the "Breaking News Story". If it's what I think it is, it won't break until 18:00 UTC, which translates to 5 am Friday morning down under. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 12 5:14: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8805037B66D for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 05:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13jhFF-000Cow-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:13:57 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA38555 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:13:56 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:13:56 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: linux growing pains? Message-ID: <20001012131356.A38530@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20001011/tc/a_question_of_leadership_1.html Interesting article here. With RH in the leadership position they are, a lot of companies will follow suit, I'm sure. I don't want to slam Linux, because it has helped bring all the free *nix's into public view. But the fragmented development model and the lack of a core team of developers making such crucial decisions is starting to take its toll. jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 12 5:15: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B65CF37B502 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 05:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13jhGK-000CpQ-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:15:04 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA38590 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:15:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:15:03 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: linux growing pains? Message-ID: <20001012131503.B38530@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I forgot... all this sure makes me appreciate the FreeBSD core team. Keep up the good work guys! jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 12 5:58:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE4D237B66D for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 05:58:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@knecht [141.44.21.3]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03039 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:58:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id OAA07426; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:58:47 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de: jesse set sender to jesse@cs.uni-magdeburg.de using -f To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Napster client that is capable of handling vorbis (ogg) files References: <200010120050.RAA10991@usr09.primenet.com> From: Roland Jesse In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:50:21 +0000 (GMT)" Date: 12 Oct 2000 14:58:47 +0200 Message-ID: <0v66myfc6w.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Try GNUtella; it can do files without needing to look at their > extension to tell what type they are. Not that bad of an idea but at least in gtk_gnutella the "Rescan" button in the "Path(s) to files" part of the config dialog is disabled and the whole program therefore not of much use in regard to sharing files with other people... Is anyone out here using a gnutella client successfully? Roland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 12 6: 9:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF0937B66D for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 06:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@knecht [141.44.21.3]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03170 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:09:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id PAA07453; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:09:20 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de: jesse set sender to jesse@cs.uni-magdeburg.de using -f To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Napster client that is capable of handling vorbis (ogg) files References: <200010120050.RAA10991@usr09.primenet.com> From: Roland Jesse In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:50:21 +0000 (GMT)" Date: 12 Oct 2000 15:09:19 +0200 Message-ID: <0vzokadx4w.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Try GNUtella; it can do files without needing to look at their > extension to tell what type they are. Series: "Articles, we don't want to see." Today: To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 12 8:59: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout06.sul.t-online.com (mailout06.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DD5A37B502 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fwd07.sul.t-online.com by mailout06.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 13jkl1-00054f-00; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 17:58:59 +0200 Received: from theol.phicom.net (320075607657-0001@[193.159.121.196]) by fwd07.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 13jkks-1sIaRsC; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 17:58:50 +0200 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:02:35 +0200 From: martian@t-online.de (Martin Moeller) To: FreeBSD Chat Cc: Heiko Scholten , Jan Henrik Lange , Jan Mueller , Martin Grabner , Martin Möller , Peter Rühmann , Sandra Anna Hilberling , Frank Mueller , Andrea Höhne , Carsten Ikemeyer , Günther Rühmann Message-Id: <20001012180235.2dede213.martian@t-online.de> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.4.1 (GTK+ 1.2.8; FreeBSD 4.1-RELEASE; i386) Organization: PhiCom Software Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: 320075607657-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, familiy! Let me take this last chance to say goodbye as an unmarried man before function wedding(male, female); is called tomorrow morning. ;-) Greetings! Martin. -- Martin Moeller Email: martian [at] t-online.de PhiCom Software * Falkenried 60 * 20251 Hamburg * Deutschland Tel.: +49 (40) 4232 6801 * Fax: +49 (40) 4232 6811 [Germany] Cell: +49 (172) 274 34 33 * Powered by FreeBSD 4.1.1-STABLE -- We are Microsoft. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 12 12:35:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DDB637B66C for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA00095; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:36:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAciaGea; Thu Oct 12 12:36:00 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03546; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:35:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200010121935.MAA03546@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Napster client that is capable of handling vorbis (ogg) files To: jesse@mail.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De (Roland Jesse) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:35:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <0vzokadx4w.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> from "Roland Jesse" at Oct 12, 2000 03:09:19 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Try GNUtella; it can do files without needing to look at their > > extension to tell what type they are. > > Series: "Articles, we don't want to see." Today: > > So it has bad architecture; most free software does. If it didn't, it would have cost a lot to develop, the people who did the work would be looking to recoup their costs, and it wouldn't be free software. The question I was answering had to do with distribution of arbitrary file formats (in this case, one using a codec that is so unknown to most people, that it wouldn't make sense to try to support it, unless there started a Windows version, and someone put up a recoding gateway to turn things that were encoded using it back into MP3s). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 12 13:45:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C028537B502 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 37992 invoked from network); 12 Oct 2000 20:45:23 -0000 Received: from gargoyle.outpost.co.nz (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.42) by queasy.outpost.co.nz with SMTP; 12 Oct 2000 20:45:23 -0000 Message-ID: <39E622E3.58F09D3F@outpost.co.nz> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:45:23 +1300 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Napster client that is capable of handling vorbis (ogg) files References: <200010121935.MAA03546@usr09.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Try GNUtella; it can do files without needing to look at their > > > extension to tell what type they are. > > > > Series: "Articles, we don't want to see." Today: > > > > > > So it has bad architecture; most free software does. If it > didn't, it would have cost a lot to develop, the people who > did the work would be looking to recoup their costs, and it > wouldn't be free software. > > The question I was answering had to do with distribution of > arbitrary file formats (in this case, one using a codec that > is so unknown to most people, that it wouldn't make sense to > try to support it, unless there started a Windows version, > and someone put up a recoding gateway to turn things that > were encoded using it back into MP3s). Mojonation looks interesting: www.mojonation.net. A slightly different model, users get paid "mojo" for providing servers and have to pay it to download files. It's still in beta and there's no BSD port yet (but they're working on it). -- C. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 12 19:24:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4165F37B503 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA17591; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:25:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA1sa44H; Thu Oct 12 19:24:43 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA03321; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:24:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200010130224.TAA03321@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: More Windows telnet trivia... To: mbendiks@eunet.no (Marius Bendiksen) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 02:24:18 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Marius Bendiksen" at Oct 12, 2000 11:33:12 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ ... moved to chat ... ] > > Besides: arguing that Windows does telnet out of the box > > isn't a terribly defensible position, because of the terrible > > compatability of their "ANSI"/VT100 emulator. I even use > > TeraTerm for telnet sometimes, just because you can actually run > > vi and mutt through it. > > Actually, "setenv TERM vt220" and resizing your window to lose the > scrollbars will get you everything you need from standard win95 telnet. > Windows 2000 telnet handles ansi/vt100 just fine with no trickery, and > does kerberized telnet, IIRC. You can fix this on Windows 95, as well. The trick is to drag an icon to the desktop, and ensure that the program starts in a maximized window, by modifying the icon properties. If you use the icon to start telnet thereafter, the screen will be brought up without the annoying (and unnecessary for the display area size) scrollbars. I have always used "xterm" as my terminal type for the thing; I find it performs better than the VT220. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 12 19:34:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BFD837B502 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e9D2Yqf27009; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:34:52 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Terry Lambert Cc: Marius Bendiksen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More Windows telnet trivia... Message-ID: <20001012193452.G272@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200010130224.TAA03321@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <200010130224.TAA03321@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 02:24:18AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Terry Lambert [001012 19:24] wrote: > [ ... moved to chat ... ] > > > > Besides: arguing that Windows does telnet out of the box > > > isn't a terribly defensible position, because of the terrible > > > compatability of their "ANSI"/VT100 emulator. I even use > > > TeraTerm for telnet sometimes, just because you can actually run > > > vi and mutt through it. > > > > Actually, "setenv TERM vt220" and resizing your window to lose the > > scrollbars will get you everything you need from standard win95 telnet. > > Windows 2000 telnet handles ansi/vt100 just fine with no trickery, and > > does kerberized telnet, IIRC. > > You can fix this on Windows 95, as well. The trick is to drag > an icon to the desktop, and ensure that the program starts in a > maximized window, by modifying the icon properties. If you use > the icon to start telnet thereafter, the screen will be brought > up without the annoying (and unnecessary for the display area > size) scrollbars. > > I have always used "xterm" as my terminal type for the thing; I > find it performs better than the VT220. terraterm makes a nice free replacement for windows telnet, it's even got a ssh plug-in. sorry, you gotta do the search. :) -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 12 20: 4:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7087A37B502 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (right/backatcha) with ESMTP id e9D34ee08188 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:04:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Trevor Johnson To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More Windows telnet trivia... In-Reply-To: <20001012193452.G272@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > terraterm makes a nice free replacement for windows telnet, it's even > got a ssh plug-in. > > sorry, you gotta do the search. :) Start at http://openssh.com/windows.html . -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 12 20:14:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B87737B670 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA43289; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:15:08 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Roland Jesse Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Napster client that is capable of handling vorbis (ogg) files Message-ID: <20001012201508.A31745@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <200010120050.RAA10991@usr09.primenet.com> <0v66myfc6w.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <0v66myfc6w.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de>; from jesse@mail.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De on Thu, Oct 12, 2000 at 02:58:47PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Oct 12, 2000 at 02:58:47PM +0200, Roland Jesse wrote: > Is anyone out here using a gnutella client successfully? gnut Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 12 21:14:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from horizon.webcentral.com.au (horizon.webcentral.com.au [202.139.235.244]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A2CD237B502 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10892 invoked from network); 13 Oct 2000 04:14:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warhawk) (203.147.166.100) by horizon.webcentral.com.au with SMTP; 13 Oct 2000 04:14:41 -0000 From: "Haikal Saadh" To: "Alfred Perlstein" , "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Marius Bendiksen" , Subject: RE: More Windows telnet trivia... Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:18:29 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20001012193452.G272@fw.wintelcom.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am actually using puTTY, (telnet +ssh) and the speed gain i found over windows' std. issues telnet is just amazing! I can actually telnet to other machines over the net with my 56k modem and still remain sane. -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Alfred Perlstein Sent: Friday, 13 October 2000 12:35 PM To: Terry Lambert Cc: Marius Bendiksen; chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More Windows telnet trivia... * Terry Lambert [001012 19:24] wrote: > [ ... moved to chat ... ] > > > > Besides: arguing that Windows does telnet out of the box > > > isn't a terribly defensible position, because of the terrible > > > compatability of their "ANSI"/VT100 emulator. I even use > > > TeraTerm for telnet sometimes, just because you can actually run > > > vi and mutt through it. > > > > Actually, "setenv TERM vt220" and resizing your window to lose the > > scrollbars will get you everything you need from standard win95 telnet. > > Windows 2000 telnet handles ansi/vt100 just fine with no trickery, and > > does kerberized telnet, IIRC. > > You can fix this on Windows 95, as well. The trick is to drag > an icon to the desktop, and ensure that the program starts in a > maximized window, by modifying the icon properties. If you use > the icon to start telnet thereafter, the screen will be brought > up without the annoying (and unnecessary for the display area > size) scrollbars. > > I have always used "xterm" as my terminal type for the thing; I > find it performs better than the VT220. terraterm makes a nice free replacement for windows telnet, it's even got a ssh plug-in. sorry, you gotta do the search. :) -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 12 22:54:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ra.nks.net (ra.nks.net [208.226.218.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BC6B37B502 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (joeo@localhost) by ra.nks.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA02823 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 01:54:46 -0400 Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 01:54:46 -0400 (EDT) From: X-Sender: joeo@ra.nks.net To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: booting from dos Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Was just looking/messing around and found out that the netbsd/i386 "dosboot.com" can load and boot a freebsd elf kernel. ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/NetBSD-1.5_ALPHA2/i386/installation/misc/ FreeBSD lost this functionality (IIRC) when it moved to elf and the dos loader in /sys/boot/biosboot never got updated to understand elf images. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 12 23:24:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B702D37B503 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:22:53 -0700 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9D6O8073772 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:24:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:24:08 -0700 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Article from The Onion Message-ID: <20001012232408.S25121@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For anyone who has to deal with lusers, http://www.theonion.com/onion3636/counterpoint_technology.html -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 13 0:41:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2918137B503 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 00:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@knecht [141.44.21.3]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03418 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:41:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id JAA24714; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:41:44 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de: jesse set sender to jesse@cs.uni-magdeburg.de using -f To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Napster client that is capable of handling vorbis (ogg) files References: <200010121935.MAA03546@usr09.primenet.com> From: Roland Jesse In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:35:34 +0000 (GMT)" Date: 13 Oct 2000 09:41:44 +0200 Message-ID: <0vitqxdw7b.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > > > > So it has bad architecture; most free software does. I forgot the smiley. Sorry about that. ;-) Roland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 13 0:51:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8283937B66C for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 00:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@knecht [141.44.21.3]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03575 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:51:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id JAA24741; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:51:15 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de: jesse set sender to jesse@cs.uni-magdeburg.de using -f To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Napster client that is capable of handling vorbis (ogg) files References: <200010120050.RAA10991@usr09.primenet.com> <0v66myfc6w.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> <20001012201508.A31745@citusc17.usc.edu> From: Roland Jesse In-Reply-To: Kris Kennaway's message of "Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:15:08 -0700" Date: 13 Oct 2000 09:51:15 +0200 Message-ID: <0vd7h5dvrg.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway writes: > gnut Yeah, hagelslag is nice, too. Maybe that I should invest a weekend to build a little fancy clicky interface. :-) Roland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 13 2:25:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088A437B503 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 02:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA13905; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 02:25:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAfNaWhB; Fri Oct 13 02:25:49 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA23035; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 02:25:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200010130925.CAA23035@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: booting from dos To: joeo@cracktown.com Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:25:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "joeo@cracktown.com" at Oct 13, 2000 01:54:46 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Was just looking/messing around and found out that the netbsd/i386 > "dosboot.com" can load and boot a freebsd elf kernel. > > ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/NetBSD-1.5_ALPHA2/i386/installation/misc/ > > FreeBSD lost this functionality (IIRC) when it moved to elf and the dos > loader in /sys/boot/biosboot never got updated to understand elf images. Is it just DOS, or is it Windows 95/98/2000/NT as well? The old DOS boot for FreeBSD still works for DOS itself, if you load the transitional a.out second stage loader that can load ELF. I was under the impression that it would not work with FreeBSD as it is today because of the VM86() requirement of the FreeBSD kernel. When the BIOs vectors are replaced by Windows, and then thunked back to the real BIOS, without the Windows there to handle the traps to those vectors, the FreeBSD VM86() calls fail. If the NetBSD stuff works from Windows, I'd be very happy... it's a piece of a puzzle that's been bothering me ever since the Linux "testdrive" version was released. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 13 6:17:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F79337B502 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 06:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13k4i9-0007k6-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:17:21 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA52732 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:17:20 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:17:20 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Cars compared to Windows Message-ID: <20001013141720.A52708@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thought you guys might like this, if you haven't seen it before. ------------------------------------------- At a recent computer expo (COMDEX), Bill Gates compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated: "If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25.00 dollar cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon." In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release (by Mr. Welch himself) stating: If General Motors had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics: 1. For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash twice a day. 2. Every time they repainted the lines on the road, you'd have to buy a new car. 3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You'd just calmly accept this, restart your car, and then drive on. 4. Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart. Then, you'd have to reinstall the engine. 5. Only one person at a time could use the car, unless you bought "Car98 or "CarNT". But then you'd have to buy more seats. 6. Apple Computer would make a car that was solar powered, more reliable, five times faster and twice as easy to drive, but would only run on 5% of the roads. 7. The oil, water, temperature and alternator warning lights would be replaced by a single "General Car Default" warning light. 8. New seats would force everyone to have the same size butt. 9. The airbag system would ask "Are you sure?" before activating. 10. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you back in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key, and grabbed hold of the radio antenna. 11. GM would require all car buyers to also purchase a deluxe set of Rand McNally road maps (now a GM subsidiary) even though they'd neither want nor need them. Attempting to delete this option would immediately diminish the car's performance by 50% or more. Moreover, GM would become a target for investigation by the Justice Department. 12. Every time GM introduced a new model, car buyers would have to learn how to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as before. 13. You'd press the "Start" button to shut off your engine. jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 13 7: 7:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A52DE37B503 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 006D5755B; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1D261D89; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:11:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Haikal Saadh Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Terry Lambert , Marius Bendiksen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: More Windows telnet trivia... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 13 Oct 2000, Haikal Saadh wrote: : :I am actually using puTTY, (telnet +ssh) :and the speed gain i found over windows' std. issues telnet is just amazing! : :I can actually telnet to other machines over the net :with my 56k modem and still remain sane. The tera term ssh plugin does things like they should be done and let's you pull X apps across it. I've been using it in conjunction with Exceed3D to access my SGI's with very nice results. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 13 8:17:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ra.nks.net (ra.nks.net [208.226.218.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C289F37B502 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 08:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (joeo@localhost) by ra.nks.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03914; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:17:31 -0400 Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:17:31 -0400 (EDT) From: X-Sender: joeo@ra.nks.net To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: booting from dos In-Reply-To: <200010130925.CAA23035@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've only tried it on this funky MediaGX equiped box with a dos partition on a DiskOnChip and no other local storage. Have no idea about using it from windows or NT. The freebsd second stage boot loader understands FAT? Does it use BIOS calls to interact with the boot media on the i386? Not that I have a particularly good or even passing familiarity of the boot process on x86. The DOC is a weird thing (or maybe the bios on the board is...). Under dos it installs the hooks it needs to act like a drive, but linux and everything else needs special drivers to talk to it like storage media... On Fri, 13 Oct 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > The old DOS boot for FreeBSD still works for DOS itself, if you > load the transitional a.out second stage loader that can load ELF. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 13 9:10:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (sub24-23.member.dsl-only.net [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C5137B66C; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:10:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 504FB328E; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:34:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D5AC328D; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:34:20 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:34:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Rick Hamell To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: -newbies Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD-newbies needs to be removed. I've been on it since it was created and can say that it is not living up to it's orginal purpose. If I remeber right, and a quick check of the archives seems to confirm, -newbies was created only if no questions were asked there. In the last year or two it has been a low-traffic list. Most every post across it has either been a cross-post, OR a question! Despite my and several other's efforts to keep it on topic, and questions posted where they belong, it is somehow attracting questions. Many of which are not even close to being newbie questions! In the intrest of keeping everything in one place, and to keep people from thinking the FreeBSD project is not "helping" them when they send questions to newbies, that don't get answered. (Or worse yet, may get answered wrong,) we need to remove this point of contact. Like I mentioned, I've tried to help direct people to the correct list, but do not have time (or desire) to catch every single mis-post. The only other option I see is that a core of dedicated people make it their job to actively redirect these misposts and/or try to come up with topcis to keep the group on track Rick Rick's FreeBSD Help Site! http://www.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://www.shatteredcrystal.net/hardware ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 13 10:19: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 968C837B66F; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA11173; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:32:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Rick Hamell Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: -newbies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Rick Hamell wrote: > > FreeBSD-newbies needs to be removed. I've been on it since it was **snip** I unsubscribed from freebsd-newbies when it first showed up for the reasons Rick described. To me, it was just another -questions to deal with. Let the newbies chat on -chat like the rest of us. Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 13 13:41:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yahoo.com (h0001023e7f2b.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.238.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB7F937B670 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 13:41:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charles Volkstorf" To: Subject: MUMPS Programmer Resume (27 years experience) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 16:40:31 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20001013204124.AB7F937B670@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Charles S. Volkstorf 29 Concord Ave. # 710 Cambridge, MA 02138 617/547-1459 Dear Employer, In response to your job notice, I have been programming exclusively in the MUMPS programming language since 1973. My entire professional life has been devoted to MUMPS. I have worked for 8 Hospitals, 4 HMO's (Health Maintenance Organizations), 3 Universities, 3 Commercial Laboratories and 12 Vendors, for a total of 30 different MUMPS users. Much of my work has been with the popular IDX System. My detailed resume can be copied and pasted (ctrl A = select all, ctrl C = copy and ctrl V = paste) from either of two web sites: http://www.resumesafari.com/resumes/203_Volkstorf.htm or http://www.nrecruiter.com/Resumes/Resume_Charles_Volkstorf.htm Please feel free to copy either of these links into your browser to access my resume. I can also email you a copy if you will send a request to me at chvol@aol.com . I can work anywhere under contract. Please forward copies of my resume to your branch offices. If you have need for any MUMPS programming expertise, please feel free to contact me. Sincerely, Charles Volkstorf 617-547-1459 chvol@aol.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 13 13:50:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (f205.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D55D37B503; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 13:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 13:50:51 -0700 Received: from 129.130.81.32 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:50:51 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.130.81.32] From: "That Guy" To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: -newbies Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:50:51 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2000 20:50:51.0865 (UTC) FILETIME=[45F78490:01C03557] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In my experience at using FreeBSD, I've come to the conclusion that certain questions are so stupid (ie my own) that they need their own listserv. Maybe we should have -mindnumbing instead. Yet these questions need to be asked. Perhaps the listserv isn't supposed to have questions on it, but you really have to wonder why we don't have a questions listserv that tailors itself more toward the newer users. I really don't understand how the mission of this listserv could possibly aim towards regular conversation of newbies. If anything, this listserv should be a -remedial version of -questions. Removing this listserv doesn't serve any purpose at all. At least a refocus would do some good. Josh >From: "Jason C. Wells" >To: Rick Hamell >CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: -newbies >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:32:10 -0700 (PDT) > >On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Rick Hamell wrote: > > > > > FreeBSD-newbies needs to be removed. I've been on it since it was > >**snip** > >I unsubscribed from freebsd-newbies when it first showed up for the >reasons Rick described. To me, it was just another -questions to deal >with. > >Let the newbies chat on -chat like the rest of us. > >Thank you, >Jason C. Wells > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 13 14:21:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (sub24-23.member.dsl-only.net [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48FE737B66C; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1CCF2328F; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:45:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01BC8328E; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:45:06 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:45:06 +0000 (GMT) From: Rick Hamell To: That Guy Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: -newbies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > itself more toward the newer users. I really don't understand how the > mission of this listserv could possibly aim towards regular conversation of > newbies. If anything, this listserv should be a -remedial version of > -questions. Removing this listserv doesn't serve any purpose at all. At > least a refocus would do some good. It does serve a purpose. The orginal argument for NOT having -newbies and not having technical questions in it. Say you've been thrown into the position of admin. for your entire company (because you know 'computers') You inadvertantly ask a question on -newbies, get the wrong answer, and boom... your company is down, or worst yet lost lots of valuable data. I have seen at least once something similar... People who are on -questions may not have time to keep track of -newbies also. Having just one technical contact for all customers keeps everything in one place so that those who know what they're doing can help even with the seemingly 'newbie' questions. My major problem is that the questions that are being asked in newbies, are not newbie questions! Asking about setting up a pccard, or NATD, or DNS, or firewall filters are not in my mind newbie-type questions. They are intermediate or even advanced topics. Newbies was meant as a place for newbies to spout off about the latest thing they've done, or a cool feature they found, or a web site that really helped them, etc, etc... But when was the last time such a question came across? In the last year, I believe I've only seen one, maybe two posts that I think are ontopic for -newbies. Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 13 18:47:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (sub24-23.member.dsl-only.net [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0B2637B66F for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 18:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A6AD2328E; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:11:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 889E5328D for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:11:03 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:11:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Rick Hamell To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: -newbies Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > My major problem is that the questions that are being asked in > > newbies, are not newbie questions! Asking about setting up a pccard, or > > NATD, or DNS, or firewall filters are not in my mind newbie-type > > questions. > > What exactly are appropriate questions? There will always be someone on > any list who won't follow the rules, but what about the rest of us? From the -Newbies First Aid Kit, our "FAQ" so to speak: FreeBSD-Questions@FreeBSD.ORG is the place to send all questions about installing, configuring, running and using FreeBSD. All help requests are handled by FreeBSD-Questions, including newbies questions. FreeBSD-Newbies is different. We don't ask for help or answer how-to question. It is a discussion forum for newbies. That is the rules of FreeBSD-newbies... pretty simple. Those are the rules it was allowed to come into creation under. Those rules are NOT being followed today, nor have they been followed for quite some time. > The intricacies of NAT or DNS certainly don't belong here. But what > about installation issues (if you can't get it installed, odds are > you're a newbie)? What programs to use (tcsh or bash)? Etc. If some > questions are allowed but others are not, then there should be some sort > of guidelines as to what is okay. Simple... NO technical questions are allowed at all. What programs to use would be IMHO, on-topic and appropriate. > I'm not trying to be belligerant. I fully understand your points. But I > think -newbies should be more than just "I did something cool with > FreeBSD last night." We are mere beginners with FreeBSD. That's why > we're called newbies. At least give us a chance to learn to walk before > demanding we run with the big boys. Yes, we were all beginners. FreeBSD-questions has been very tolerant over the years to newbies. No matter how basic your question is, if it's worded politely, and you seem to have done basic research, it gets answered. In fact, from what I see... some of the more advanced questions are more likely to not be answered! See the four postings regarding PCMCIA Cards installations/configuration. > > But when was the last time such a question came across? In the > > last year, I believe I've only seen one, maybe two posts that I think are > > ontopic for -newbies. > > Huh? Are you serious! I recall discussions on the merits and > disadvantages of various window managers, tales of triumph and woe, > talks on the documentation situation as it applies to newbies, and of > course the recent magazine discussion. All of these were appropriate > because they were discussed by *newbies* from a *newbie* perspective. > Geez, if we can't even talk about where to find documentation written > for newbies, then go ahead and nuke the list because it's pretty > useless... Ok, I will freely admit there that I mis-spoke there, though some of those topics were cross-posted off into -chat or -questions, right where they were both on topic. I'm trying to bring this to people's attention because a large amount of questions are getting asked in Newbies, and from I can see never get answered. I do not believe that is giving a FreeBSD a very good reputation. We talk about needing to expand, but by having people not realize what -newbies really is for, they're missing a lot more that they have the right to get, if they posted to the correct place. I personally would be willing to see -newbies changed to something like -newbie_issues.. (not -newbie-chat... -chat already serves that purpose, as most -newbie chat issues again, IMHO are not limited to the newbie.) If I had the time I would volunteer to take over from Sue Blake the position of defacto Moderator of -newbies. She did a wonderful job in the begining, but I can not remeber the last non-Newbies First Aid Kit post she's made. Either she also is to busy, no longer feels -newbies is needed by herself or in general, or...? Please Sue if you do read this, I respect you and the pain you went through to get this group created, I simply believe your orginal vision needs a swift kick to get it back where it belongs. Ultimatily, I guess it belongs in postmaster@freebsd.org's hands to make this choice. Does -newbies get a name change, stay the way it is, or get kicked out the door? Rick ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://www.shatteredcrystal.net/hardware ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 13 19:45: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42EB737B66E; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 19:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA21315; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 13:43:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 13:43:43 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: -newbies Message-ID: <20001014134341.D2537@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org References: <39E7A882.6F1D21D4@acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Rick Hamell on Thu, Oct 12, 2000 at 06:07:32PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Oct 12, 2000 at 06:07:32PM +0000, Rick Hamell wrote: > > Please Sue if you do read this, I > respect you and the pain you went through to get this group created, I > simply believe your orginal vision needs a swift kick to get it back where > it belongs. > Ultimatily, I guess it belongs in postmaster@freebsd.org's hands > to make this choice. Does -newbies get a name change, stay the way it is, > or get kicked out the door? I am never very far away, but I'd rather see newbies work out issues themselves. Spill your hearts here, your own kinda private and safe place. One of the many functions of this mailing list is to orient people to how the mailing lists and their community works, which includes collaborating with PEERS. As equals. There is no other mailing list where newbies can talk with their peers without more experienced people butting in with their experienced-biased views. I would deplore any infiltration by know-it-alls who want to preach and correct the errors of thinking that all newbies must work thorugh as part of learning, and I'm certainly trying to refrain from doing so myself. (But people in the know about policy, e.g. Nik's humble invitations to join the doc project and how it works, are obviously welcome). You have technical/how-to problems? The best thing IMO is to work it out as well as you can first, and then post a neat summary to freebsd-questions where others will find it in a mailing list search. Other newbies can help you with the actual writing process if posting to freebsd-questions is daunting, and then you post the question to -questions. You have social/community/list-activity problems? Work it out among yourselves. Write to me personally if you really think it needs the voice of authority, and if necessary I'll tic tac with the postmaster who has the final say in many list matters. I don't believe you can learn a community well unless you are free to make a few accidental mistakes, take risks, and not have to do so in the presence of thousands of intimidating experts in the field. Nobody minds someone who knows nothing of FreeBSD, but many of the most vocal experienced people have very low tolerance for people who don't use the FreeBSD lists as they are expected to. That's why I don't pounce hard on genuine newbies abusing this list by accident. A gentle reminder and pointer from a fellow newbie in a small group is hard enough to take as it is. We don't want to scare people off, we want to help them fit in. Besides, this is the only list which has any "voice of authority" attached to it, and the idea is that with the reassurance of having me around you'll be able to wean yourselves off that need. Of course, none of this has anything remotely to do with how to install or configure or fix something with FreeBSD itself. There are other lists for newbies to go to for those things. I've watched this list since its beginning, and as I expected there's been very high and very low points. Such fluctuation would not be tolerated on other lists but is necessary to this one. Indeed, the very basis of freebsd-newbies is that it's for whatever is forbidden on every other list, and nothing else. Over that time I've also seen a small sub-community of newbies come into existence, who gradually learned the (social) ropes and found just the right ways to communicate that to their equals. Nobody but a newbie can help a newbie without bringing shame to the sensitive ones among us. Again, this is my opinion, many disagree strongly, and neither my opinion nor theirs is valid when it comes down to it, because we're not newbies. Newbies should speak for newbies. So far, overall, you lot have done pretty well for yourselves. Several newbies have come here as absolute ratbags who might have been scolded away from FreeBSD if it wasn't for the patience and support of their newbie peers, then they've seen how it all works, learned to fit in, and went on to become valued contributors to the FreeBSD Project. Credit for that goes not to the list, but the people who belong to it. I believe you can work this one out between you too, if the heavies leave you alone in peace long enough to work out your own common views. If you agreed on an idea that involves changes, let me know, and I'll compare it to known history and give feedback, then see if it can be fitted into the FreeBSD list requirements. Sometimes when it can't be fitted in, I can make a special hole for it. Indeed, that is how this discussion group came about in the first place. I assure you that now, as earlier, I won't take much notice of what non-newbies claim to know about newbies. Good luck, have fun, be kind to each other, and call on me when you think it is really necessary. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 13 19:45:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (sub24-23.member.dsl-only.net [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 676EA37B66D; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 19:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 27841328E; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:09:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14871328D; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:09:26 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:09:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Rick Hamell To: That Guy Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: -newbies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You're missing the point in your example of an admin. There is a definite > boundary between questions I would ask about certain subjects in questions. > I know I am not the only one, but many of my questions are minor, and to > somebody much more knowledgeable, certainly not worth posting to such a huge Either or... technical questions to -newbies are off topic. Period. It dosen't matter how minor it is. > listserv. The purpose of this listserv if it focused towards answering > questions would be an alternative to -questions that has the knowledgeable > patient ones among us to answer questions, while certainly not wasting the > time of -questions. Every time I've posted to -questions I've gotten the > distinct feeling that my question just wasn't of enough technical merit to > justify having that many people read it. Not focusing towards newbies with > genuine problems I think is a great mistake. -questions doesn't and can't > fulfill those requirements. I personally haven't ever felt that. And believe me... I've asked some stupid questions... :) And I think (and many others,) feel that having more then one point technical contact is too many. Again, questions get missed, or maybe answered wrong. As I've pointed out even if we make -newbies a -newbie list... who is going to decide what is a newbie question and what isn't? Again, most the technical posts I've seen on the list have not been newbie type questions, questions that were not only not answered, but not even cross posted in -questions where they should have been in the first place. On top of that, most people simply do not read. They are going to continue posting their questions to -newbies wether it be changed to include newbie questions or not. Again, I belive that to be a greater disservice to those people (who admittedly really should get what they deserve... but I digress on that point,) and to the people on -newbies who can't even begin to answer those questions. Rick ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://www.shatteredcrystal.net/hardware ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 14 7:25:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from slkcpop3.slkc.uswest.net (mail.slkc.uswest.net [206.81.128.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3348937B66E for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 07:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10444 invoked by alias); 14 Oct 2000 14:25:12 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 10417 invoked by uid 0); 14 Oct 2000 14:25:10 -0000 Received: from badialup76.slkc.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (63.225.236.76) by mail.slkc.uswest.net with SMTP; 14 Oct 2000 14:25:10 -0000 Message-ID: <39E86BC9.4FA97AC1@uswest.net> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 08:20:57 -0600 From: Joe Warner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick Hamell Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: -newbies References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I happen to agree with most of the points made here by Rick and David. Rick, do you think that all technical questions should be forbidden from this list? IMHO, I think a logical approach would be to allow certain questions, depending on their scope. For example, someone proclaims they are new to FreeBSD and wants to know how to list the contents of a directory. A simple response would instruct them to use the "ls" command and also suggest they take a look at "man ls". I don't think there would be any risk of someone trashing their system with the "ls" command. All other questions, of a higher technical scope, could be politely directed to questions. Would this type of approach be too difficult to manage? I have taken this approach in the past. If someone asks a simple question and I'm 100% sure of the answer and am positive that my response won't cause the person to inflict damage to their system, I answer their question and also tell them where they can find more information. If the question is something like, how to configure a firewall or DNS, I kindly direct them to -questions and may include references to related publications and/or other resources. Even though the thread (re: BSD Magazine (Advertiser Responses) that I started on -newbies may have been appropriate, the length of this thread became irritating for some and as a result, efforts were made to create a separate list for this topic. BTW - I plan to withhold future information I receive, re: this subject and only post info that is a lot more substantial. Maybe it would help if Sue's "FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit" was posted more often? Maybe regular subscribers to this list, such as myself, could take a more active role in moderating it? Maybe there is a valid need for a name change for this list? Maybe all of the above? It sounds like, to me, that moderating this list has become a tough job and maybe, if a consensus was reached among the current moderators and regular subscribers, as to the content, there could be a team effort to make things better for everyone? Joe Rick Hamell wrote: > > > My major problem is that the questions that are being asked in > > > newbies, are not newbie questions! Asking about setting up a pccard, or > > > NATD, or DNS, or firewall filters are not in my mind newbie-type > > > questions. > > > > What exactly are appropriate questions? There will always be someone on > > any list who won't follow the rules, but what about the rest of us? > > From the -Newbies First Aid Kit, our "FAQ" so to speak: > > FreeBSD-Questions@FreeBSD.ORG is the place to send all questions > about installing, configuring, running and using FreeBSD. All help > requests are handled by FreeBSD-Questions, including newbies questions. > > FreeBSD-Newbies is different. We don't ask for help or answer > how-to question. It is a discussion forum for newbies. > > That is the rules of FreeBSD-newbies... pretty simple. Those are > the rules it was allowed to come into creation under. Those rules are NOT > being followed today, nor have they been followed for quite some time. > > > The intricacies of NAT or DNS certainly don't belong here. But what > > about installation issues (if you can't get it installed, odds are > > you're a newbie)? What programs to use (tcsh or bash)? Etc. If some > > questions are allowed but others are not, then there should be some sort > > of guidelines as to what is okay. > > Simple... NO technical questions are allowed at all. What programs > to use would be IMHO, on-topic and appropriate. > > > I'm not trying to be belligerant. I fully understand your points. But I > > think -newbies should be more than just "I did something cool with > > FreeBSD last night." We are mere beginners with FreeBSD. That's why > > we're called newbies. At least give us a chance to learn to walk before > > demanding we run with the big boys. > > Yes, we were all beginners. FreeBSD-questions has been very > tolerant over the years to newbies. No matter how basic your question is, > if it's worded politely, and you seem to have done basic research, it gets > answered. In fact, from what I see... some of the more advanced questions > are more likely to not be answered! See the four postings regarding PCMCIA > Cards installations/configuration. > > > > But when was the last time such a question came across? In the > > > last year, I believe I've only seen one, maybe two posts that I think are > > > ontopic for -newbies. > > > > Huh? Are you serious! I recall discussions on the merits and > > disadvantages of various window managers, tales of triumph and woe, > > talks on the documentation situation as it applies to newbies, and of > > course the recent magazine discussion. All of these were appropriate > > because they were discussed by *newbies* from a *newbie* perspective. > > Geez, if we can't even talk about where to find documentation written > > for newbies, then go ahead and nuke the list because it's pretty > > useless... > > Ok, I will freely admit there that I mis-spoke there, though some > of those topics were cross-posted off into -chat or -questions, right > where they were both on topic. > I'm trying to bring this to people's attention because a large > amount of questions are getting asked in Newbies, and from I can see never > get answered. I do not believe that is giving a FreeBSD a very good > reputation. We talk about needing to expand, but by having people not > realize what -newbies really is for, they're missing a lot more that they > have the right to get, if they posted to the correct place. > I personally would be willing to see -newbies changed to something > like -newbie_issues.. (not -newbie-chat... -chat already serves that > purpose, as most -newbie chat issues again, IMHO are not limited to the > newbie.) If I had the time I would volunteer to take over from Sue Blake > the position of defacto Moderator of -newbies. She did a wonderful job in > the begining, but I can not remeber the last non-Newbies First Aid Kit > post she's made. Either she also is to busy, no longer feels -newbies is > needed by herself or in general, or...? Please Sue if you do read this, I > respect you and the pain you went through to get this group created, I > simply believe your orginal vision needs a swift kick to get it back where > it belongs. > Ultimatily, I guess it belongs in postmaster@freebsd.org's hands > to make this choice. Does -newbies get a name change, stay the way it is, > or get kicked out the door? > > Rick > > ******************************************************************* > Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd > Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://www.shatteredcrystal.net/hardware > ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD = The Power to Serve ..Simply put = FreeBSD Rocks! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 14 8:28:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (sub24-23.member.dsl-only.net [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBB4E37B66C; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 08:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A0E53328F; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:52:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DEC1328E; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:52:00 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:52:00 +0000 (GMT) From: Rick Hamell To: Joe Warner Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: -newbies In-Reply-To: <39E86BC9.4FA97AC1@uswest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Rick, do you think that all technical questions should be forbidden > from this list? IMHO, I think a logical approach would be to allow > certain questions, depending on their scope. For example, someone Not only to I think so, they ARE forbidden as stated in the First Aid Kit. > proclaims they are new to FreeBSD and wants to know how to list > the contents of a directory. A simple response would instruct them > to use the "ls" command and also suggest they take a look at "man ls". > I don't think there would be any risk of someone trashing their system > with the "ls" command. All other questions, of a higher technical scope, > could be politely directed to questions. Would this type of approach > be too difficult to manage? On this I happen to agree with you, sorta. I personally have no problems with anyone telling someone else to use the ls command, or similiar things. A real Newbie just won't know that. But again, I think it's technically off topic. > I have taken this approach in the past. If someone asks a simple question > and I'm 100% sure of the answer and am positive that my response won't > cause the person to inflict damage to their system, I answer their question > and also tell them where they can find more information. If the question > is something like, how to configure a firewall or DNS, I kindly direct them > to -questions and may include references to related publications and/or > other resources. That historically has been how a lot of people try to answer questions. The problem being is that somehow, somewhere Freebsd-newbies once got on a list as THE place to ask FreeBSD related questions. It sounds to me like it is still on this list. That is one of the reasons a name change would be a good idea. > Even though the thread (re: BSD Magazine (Advertiser Responses) that > I started on -newbies may have been appropriate, the length of this thread > became irritating for some and as a result, efforts were made to create a > separate list for this topic. BTW - I plan to withhold future information I > receive, re: this subject and only post info that is a lot more substantial. In my opinion, that thread happed just perfectly. It got moved when it got offtopic/irratating. Started out very much on topic for -newbies, and was really quite informative. I believe that since a newbie to the FreeBSD project can not contribute with coding and/or in questions (very well,) we should be dealing with advocacy and promotion issues. Heck, I carry a couple copies of the CDROM around in my car to give to people! :) > Maybe it would help if Sue's "FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit" was > posted more often? Maybe regular subscribers to this list, such as > myself, could take a more active role in moderating it? Maybe there > is a valid need for a name change for this list? Maybe all of the > above? Yes, we should all do this. We should all take a much more active role in managing newbie "affairs" :) And, the more I think about it, the more I believe a name change would help not just us, but the whole FreeBSD project also. I'm still pushing for something like newbie-issues rather then newbie-chat. I also believe that this list can once again serve as a valuable resource for the FreeBSD project in general and shouldn't be removed. But in it's current form I believe that it's hurting more then helping. > It sounds like, to me, that moderating this list has become a tough job > and maybe, if a consensus was reached among the current moderators > and regular subscribers, as to the content, there could be a team effort > to make things better for everyone? Yes, we also should try to get the -newbies Web Page updated... http://www.freebsd.org/projects/newbies. There is a link to it off the main page. Some of you may have also noticed my new signature... heorot.1nova.com/freebsd is a list of Newbie related links and help sites that I got tired of typing in all the time... :) (Which I'll be glad for any submissions/suggestions.) I would like to make it "the" site refered to on this group, instead of giving everyone four or five links to look at, they can bookmark just one. :) Rick ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://www.shatteredcrystal.net/hardware ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 14 9:30:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3230437B66E for ; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 13kUCg-0004N7-00; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 18:30:34 +0200 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9EFZXw21147 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 17:35:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: -newbies Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:35:33 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <8s9ug5$jol$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rick Hamell wrote: > FreeBSD-newbies needs to be removed. I've been on it since it was > created and can say that it is not living up to it's orginal purpose. I agree. When I unsubscribed some time ago, the list had turned into a dumping ground for technical questions by people who perceived themselves as newbies. Which is entirely contrary to the charter of the list. Also, these questions drew answers, many of which were factually lacking, which is exactly one of the reasons why questions should go to -questions. (I don't believe that the list has changed in the meantime.) -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 14 9:42: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8020337B503; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA23728; Sun, 15 Oct 2000 03:40:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 03:40:52 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Rick Hamell Cc: Joe Warner , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Newbies web page [was: -newbies] Message-ID: <20001015034050.E2537@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Rick Hamell , Joe Warner , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG References: <39E86BC9.4FA97AC1@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Rick Hamell on Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 07:52:00AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (First, I'd like to request that freebsd-chat be removed from the headers of replies. This is a freebsd-newbies discussion, and newbies might not realise that posting to several lists at once is generally discouraged. FreeBSD-chat is mostly for non-FreeBSD chat that spills over from the technical lists where it becomes off topic there.) On Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 07:52:00AM +0000, Rick Hamell wrote: > > (and someone else wrote...) > > > Maybe it would help if Sue's "FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit" was > > posted more often? When you join -newbies you get a brief run-down, and then the FAK is posted once a week. What do you want, daily? > Yes, we also should try to get the -newbies Web Page updated... > http://www.freebsd.org/projects/newbies. All you need to do is send me ideas for change, and it'll be done. I've mentioned this to newbies over and over. Nobody has ever done so!! We do need to have a central starting point for newbies on the FreeBSD web site. While I've received many notes of appreciation, the support for this, in terms of contributions suggestions or ideas, has been consistently underwhelming. You guys have to learn that you are not consumers. You get what you want by collaborating on it and then getting up and _doing_ it, or at least helping out those who are already doing stuff. This is the real world. You don't have no Mummy round no more. Live with it. Learn to thrive on it. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 14 10: 3: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (sub24-23.member.dsl-only.net [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00D7137B502; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EA778328F; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:26:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB12328E; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:26:43 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:26:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Rick Hamell To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newbies web page [was: -newbies] In-Reply-To: <20001015034050.E2537@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > (First, I'd like to request that freebsd-chat be removed from the > headers of replies. This is a freebsd-newbies discussion, and newbies > might not realise that posting to several lists at once is generally > discouraged. FreeBSD-chat is mostly for non-FreeBSD chat that spills > over from the technical lists where it becomes off topic there.) I'd prefer not too. I believe this discussion is not limited to just -newbies. It affects everyone involved with the FreeBSD project. As it stands now, we effectivley have two technical lists. That needs to be fixed. > > Yes, we also should try to get the -newbies Web Page updated... > > http://www.freebsd.org/projects/newbies. > > All you need to do is send me ideas for change, and it'll be done. > I've mentioned this to newbies over and over. Nobody has ever done so!! Sue... when was the last time you actually did? Like I said, I've not seen a post from you in quite some time. I'd be willing to guess that there are many new people here since you last posted that. Please don't think I'm slamming you, but I do not believe you can make a statement as above. > We do need to have a central starting point for newbies on the FreeBSD > web site. While I've received many notes of appreciation, the support > for this, in terms of contributions suggestions or ideas, has been > consistently underwhelming. Because, newbies are still trying to figure out what they need. It's a Chicken and Egg problem. By the time you know what you need, you've found it and don't need the newbie page anymore. :) > You guys have to learn that you are not consumers. You get what you > want by collaborating on it and then getting up and _doing_ it, or > at least helping out those who are already doing stuff. > This is the real world. You don't have no Mummy round no more. > Live with it. Learn to thrive on it. Um... that's why I personally am trying to fix the problems with -newbies. That's why I've created my webpage with good links for newbies. Rick ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://www.shatteredcrystal.net/hardware ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 14 10:34:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D49D37B670; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA23945; Sun, 15 Oct 2000 04:33:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 04:33:20 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Rick Hamell Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newbies web page [was: -newbies] Message-ID: <20001015043318.F2537@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Rick Hamell , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001015034050.E2537@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Rick Hamell on Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 09:26:43AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 09:26:43AM +0000, Rick Hamell wrote: > > > (First, I'd like to request that freebsd-chat be removed from the > > headers of replies. This is a freebsd-newbies discussion, and newbies > > might not realise that posting to several lists at once is generally > > discouraged. FreeBSD-chat is mostly for non-FreeBSD chat that spills > > over from the technical lists where it becomes off topic there.) > > I'd prefer not too. I believe this discussion is not limited to > just -newbies. It affects everyone involved with the FreeBSD > project. As it stands now, we effectivley have two technical lists. That > needs to be fixed. > > > > Yes, we also should try to get the -newbies Web Page updated... > > > http://www.freebsd.org/projects/newbies. > > > > All you need to do is send me ideas for change, and it'll be done. > > I've mentioned this to newbies over and over. Nobody has ever done so!! > > Sue... when was the last time you actually did? Yesterday. Try looking in the weekly FAK, and the first paragraph of the newbies page. > Like I said, I've not seen a post from you in quite some time. After badgering the list about newbie-derived suggestions for the page for over a year with no response, I decided to stop spamming about it. Shoot me. > I'd be willing to guess that there are many new people here since you > last posted that. Please don't think I'm slamming you, but I do not > believe you can make a statement as above. Fine. I seem to remember you being a newbie, oh, a couple of years ago? > > We do need to have a central starting point for newbies on the FreeBSD > > web site. While I've received many notes of appreciation, the support > > for this, in terms of contributions suggestions or ideas, has been > > consistently underwhelming. > > Because, newbies are still trying to figure out what they > need. It's a Chicken and Egg problem. By the time you know what you need, > you've found it and don't need the newbie page anymore. :) Sure, That's why we need one central FreeBSD-hosted web page, AND it needs to be supported. That means pointing to it instead of just other places, too. Your argument is sound. > > You guys have to learn that you are not consumers. You get what you > > want by collaborating on it and then getting up and _doing_ it, or > > at least helping out those who are already doing stuff. > > This is the real world. You don't have no Mummy round no more. > > Live with it. Learn to thrive on it. > > Um... that's why I personally am trying to fix the problems with > -newbies. That's why I've created my webpage with good links for > newbies. Good on you! Well done! This is a good example of what we're talking about. How about linking back to the FreeBSD Newbies page so that they know it's there? I know you adore the newbies page, because you've never submitted any improvements. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 14 10:49: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (sub24-23.member.dsl-only.net [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF48037B503; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3BD09328F; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:12:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20C03328E; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:12:44 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:12:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Rick Hamell To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newbies web page [was: -newbies] In-Reply-To: <20001015043318.F2537@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I'd be willing to guess that there are many new people here since you > > last posted that. Please don't think I'm slamming you, but I do not > > believe you can make a statement as above. > > Fine. I seem to remember you being a newbie, oh, a couple of years ago? About 3 years... in fact until very recently I still considered myself a newbie. That is why I am now trying to help the newbies help themselves. :) > > Um... that's why I personally am trying to fix the problems with > > -newbies. That's why I've created my webpage with good links for > > newbies. > > Good on you! Well done! > > This is a good example of what we're talking about. How about linking > back to the FreeBSD Newbies page so that they know it's there? > I know you adore the newbies page, because you've never submitted any > improvements. I already have, I just have to upload it. As for the newbies page, again I am now to the point where I feel comfortable in adding my two cents worth in. Once I get the a few other projects out of the way, I will be attacking the Newbies page. I then plan on helping with the handbook and any where else I can. I also need to go through my notes over the last three years and HTMLize them. Please Sue, do not think I am attacking you personally. I appreciate what you have done for the FreeBSD project, especially with -newbies. I simply believe that you have become tired and/or too busy to deal with it like you use too. It's been a thankless job, and you weathered it well. I simply want see your work not go in vain. My call to completly remove -newbies may have been extreme, but it has come up with what I believe is a viable alternative, a rename of the list to something that will keep questions where they belong and can get answered, yet still provide those new to the project a place to talk and get help as they can. Rick ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://www.shatteredcrystal.net/hardware ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 14 15:47:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n37.san.rr.com (dt051n37.san.rr.com [204.210.32.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA69637B503; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gorean.org (Studded@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n37.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA81098; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:47:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <39E8E276.929B570F@gorean.org> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:47:18 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-101 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: That Guy Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: -newbies References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That Guy wrote: > > In my experience at using FreeBSD, I've come to the conclusion that certain > questions are so stupid (ie my own) that they need their own listserv. No, they really don't. We have made huge progress during the last two years at making -questions a "kindler, gentler" place to ask even the most mundane question. And even though there are still the occasional boneheads, it is actually doing quite well, _especially_ considering the vast expansion of the freebsd userbase during the same period. In short, there should be one place, and one place only that is the starting point for real questions. The meta-questions like, "I need to ask about hooping my frobnitz, but I'm not sure which list is the right one to ask on" are still on topic for -newbies, even though that question could really be asked on -questions too. Doug -- "The dead cannot be seduced." - Kai, "Lexx" Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 14 17:36:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F13A437B66D; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 17:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA17527; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 17:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 17:49:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Doug Barton Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: -newbies In-Reply-To: <39E8E276.929B570F@gorean.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, Doug Barton wrote: > In short, there should be one place, and one place only that is the > starting point for real questions. I concur. I have just lurked on this thread. I don't want take anything away from anyone who wants to contribute to Freebsd in their way. For me personally, -newbies duplicated the work being done on -questions. A single point of contact for the "tech support" needs of the community is a good thing. A place for newbies may be a good thing too. Part of growing out of newbieness is using -questions, even if it means being handled without kid gloves. Perhaps a solution is for Sue Blake to produce a periodic mailing like Greg Lehey's "How to get best results" message. (I love volunteering others to do work :) ) If -newbies does go away, much of the needs of newbies might be met by reminding -questions readers of how to best help _AND_ how to represent FreeBSD. Anyway, my $.02 on the color of the bicycle shed. Thanks, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 14 21:28: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (sub24-23.member.dsl-only.net [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D157C37B502; Sat, 14 Oct 2000 21:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DFF8D328F; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:51:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C79AF328E; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:51:43 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:51:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Rick Hamell To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: -newbies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Perhaps a solution is for Sue Blake to produce a periodic mailing like > Greg Lehey's "How to get best results" message. (I love volunteering > others to do work :) ) If -newbies does go away, much of the needs of > newbies might be met by reminding -questions readers of how to best help > _AND_ how to represent FreeBSD. Well Jason... sounds like you're volunteering to come up with something...?:) Seriously, I too think something more the the First Aid Kit for Newbies is needed. Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message