From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 26 7:11: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail8.sc.rr.com (fe8.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A64737B6D9 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 07:10:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com ([24.88.102.101]) by mail8.sc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Sun, 26 Nov 2000 10:09:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:00:07 -0400 From: "Donald J . Maddox" To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Compupic Message-ID: <19990923180007.B1554@dmaddox.conterra.com> Reply-To: dmaddox@conterra.com References: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B1303366016@nmrusdunsx1.niels enmedia.com> <4.2.0.58.19990923072707.01793be0@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990923072707.01793be0@194.184.65.4> Content-Length: 923 Lines: 24 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 23, 1999 at 07:33:17AM +0200, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > At 22/09/99, you wrote: > >For those who have been working on getting the Linux version of Compupic > >running on FreeBSD (see earlier mail on -current in the archives), check > >out http://unix.compupic.com > > I am not able to run it : > > gmarco:/usr/tmp/compupic# ./compupic [any options] > compupic: abnormal termination: (null) > > This is my env: > FreeBSD gmarco.eclipse.org 4.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT #0: Mon Sep 20 > 09:40:42 CEST > 1999 gmarco@gmarco.eclipse.org:/usr/src/sys/compile/GMARCO i386 > > The box is a dual P2 400mhz with Xaccel 5.02 and G200. > > Any other that is experienced this ? > I'll try on my 3.3-STABLE box at work later... I had exactly the same problem when I initially tried to run it... Apparently, it *has* to live in /usr/local/compupic. Once I moved it to that location, it worked just fine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 26 7:11:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail8.sc.rr.com (fe8.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376A737B6DC for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 07:10:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com ([24.88.102.101]) by mail8.sc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Sun, 26 Nov 2000 10:09:15 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:12:52 -0400 From: "Donald J . Maddox" To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: dmaddox@conterra.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Compupic Message-ID: <19990924171252.A1301@dmaddox.conterra.com> Reply-To: dmaddox@conterra.com References: <4.2.0.58.19990923072707.01793be0@194.184.65.4> <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B1303366016@nmrusdunsx1.niels <4.2.0.58.19990923072707.01793be0@194.184.65.4> <19990923180007.B1554@dmaddox.conterra.com> <4.2.0.58.19990924072818.01200400@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990924072818.01200400@194.184.65.4> Content-Length: 870 Lines: 30 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yeah, looks like you're right... I forgot I had also added the link into my path. Having 'compupic' in the path looks like the real key. On Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 07:32:16AM +0200, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > At 23/09/99, Donald J . Maddox wrote: > >I had exactly the same problem when I initially tried to run it... > >Apparently, it *has* to live in /usr/local/compupic. Once I moved > >it to that location, it worked just fine. > > Uhm... if you put in /usr/local/compupic and then : > cd /usr/local/compupic > ./compupic > > it doesn't work... > > but if you ln -sf /usr/local/compupic/compupic in /usr/local/bin and then > launch compupic from everywhere it works ... > > Mah... strange thing :-) > > > > Best Regards, > Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" > http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco > http://www2.masternet.it > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 26 8:42:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C6AE37B479 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 08:42:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from gaea.mindspring.com (1Cust87.tnt1.hershey.pa.da.uu.net [63.23.225.87]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA30346 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:42:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001126114511.00a8b618@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: marisombra@pop.mindspring.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:46:30 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" Subject: Splash BMP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greets, Does anyone have a nice .bmp of our feisty mascot I could use for my boot up splash screen? Thanks, Dan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 26 14:37:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E44F37B479 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 14:37:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Sun, 26 Nov 2000 14:35:50 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eAQMbKQ71681 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 14:37:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 14:37:20 -0800 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: DVD Players, and Not in a PC Message-ID: <20001126143720.I70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone have recommendations for a good DVD player? And a vendor? I figure consumer electronics items like DVD players have only a _slightly_ longer lifetime before obsolescence than your typcial PC, so I want something with good features, but not the top-top of the line for $2k that will be $500 by spring. I broke down and got a nice Surround Sound(tm) setup, and figure I should get something to actually use it (although Colony Wars on the Playstation rules in Surround with an overpowered sub-woofer *bboooo-ooom*). -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 26 14:50: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20EDC37B479 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 14:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (dialup1873.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.235.81]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id C793DD9DC; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 23:49:55 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@195.238.1.45 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20001126143720.I70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> References: <20001126143720.I70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 23:50:35 +0100 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:37 PM -0800 2000/11/26, Crist J . Clark wrote: > Anyone have recommendations for a good DVD player? And a vendor? > > I figure consumer electronics items like DVD players have only a > _slightly_ longer lifetime before obsolescence than your typcial PC, > so I want something with good features, but not the top-top of the > line for $2k that will be $500 by spring. One factor to consider is whether you want to use the same device to do things other than just play DVDs. For example, I have a Pioneer DVD/Laserdisc combination player, and while these have historically not been all that well rated (and this model is incapable of handling PAL or SECAM format video), I quite like having that flexibility. I think you need to decide what all features you're looking for (including price), then prioritize them into what is essential, what would be very nice to have, and what would be a nice bonus if you could get it, and that will help direct your choices in this area. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 26 15:12:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail7.nc.rr.com (mail7.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B570E37B479 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 15:12:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from rdu162-227-015.nc.rr.com ([24.162.227.15]) by mail7.nc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Sun, 26 Nov 2000 18:11:51 -0500 Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 18:15:03 -0500 From: Neill Robins X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.46d) Personal Reply-To: Neill Robins X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <8683575035.20001126181503@nc.rr.com> To: Brad Knowles Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC In-reply-To: References: <20001126143720.I70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sunday, November 26, 2000, 5:50:35 PM, you wrote: BK> At 2:37 PM -0800 2000/11/26, Crist J . Clark wrote: >> Anyone have recommendations for a good DVD player? And a vendor? >> >> I figure consumer electronics items like DVD players have only a >> _slightly_ longer lifetime before obsolescence than your typcial PC, >> so I want something with good features, but not the top-top of the >> line for $2k that will be $500 by spring. BK> One factor to consider is whether you want to use the same device BK> to do things other than just play DVDs. For example, I have a BK> Pioneer DVD/Laserdisc combination player, and while these have BK> historically not been all that well rated (and this model is BK> incapable of handling PAL or SECAM format video), I quite like having BK> that flexibility. BK> I think you need to decide what all features you're looking for BK> (including price), then prioritize them into what is essential, what BK> would be very nice to have, and what would be a nice bonus if you BK> could get it, and that will help direct your choices in this area. Brad is right here. One thing to note is that there isn't a big difference between the players on the market other than DVD/LD combos and multiple DVD changers and the regular single disc versions. Quality amoung major brands are very much alike. Some other options that may come into consideration are the option to play DVD-Audio, CD-Rs and CD-RWs, and possibly SACDs, but that can drive the cost up very quickly. Some can even read MP3s directly off a CD-R. As I'm sure you know, just stick with a known brand, match up the components for aesthetics, and get a plasma or DLP TV to make it rock. Have Fun, Neill -still waiting for the DVD-Ram format to be standardized!! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 26 15:31:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7266C37B479 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 15:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Sun, 26 Nov 2000 15:29:59 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eAQNVNk72087; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 15:31:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 15:31:23 -0800 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC Message-ID: <20001126153123.J70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20001126143720.I70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from blk@skynet.be on Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 11:50:35PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 11:50:35PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 2:37 PM -0800 2000/11/26, Crist J . Clark wrote: > > > Anyone have recommendations for a good DVD player? And a vendor? > > > > I figure consumer electronics items like DVD players have only a > > _slightly_ longer lifetime before obsolescence than your typcial PC, > > so I want something with good features, but not the top-top of the > > line for $2k that will be $500 by spring. > > One factor to consider is whether you want to use the same device > to do things other than just play DVDs. For example, I have a > Pioneer DVD/Laserdisc combination player, and while these have > historically not been all that well rated (and this model is > incapable of handling PAL or SECAM format video), I quite like having > that flexibility. > > I think you need to decide what all features you're looking for > (including price), then prioritize them into what is essential, what > would be very nice to have, and what would be a nice bonus if you > could get it, and that will help direct your choices in this area. I don't have any laser disks (old girlfriend has 'em and I'm not going to get them), so that is not a option I would look for. The only thing I definately want is good regular ol' CD audio. This will be the primary audio CD player too, but I have yet to see a DVD player that does not claim to play audio CDs. Since it will be doing that, I want it have a reasonably sized changer, say >=5 DVDs/CDs. I've already got a good AV receiver, so it does not need its own mega-amp for speakers. As for price, the thing is that they are all so scattered with little direct correlation to options. I don't want to pay an extra $100 for a little name on the front when the hardware in the box is the same. (That's the same as the PC world.) It's hard for me to come up with a target when I have no real feel for the prices. I try to get a feel, say at buy.com, and they range from $150 to $350 on the banner page. Quite reasonable you say. Go to their 'Top of the Line' page and we're up to $1500... So where is the reasonable middle (OK, all of the >$1k choices look a bit out there: "From its hermetically sealed door to its all copper chassis"?) I guess what would really like would be some good URLs. When searching for info on this kind of stuff, first you get overwhelmed by hits on seller sites. Once you get those cleared out its still hard to figure out who knows what they are talking about and what is just baiscally an ad posing as a critique or someone venting on how bad the hardware is when they really can't read an instruction manual. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 26 16:52: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.wetworks.org (shell.wetworks.org [63.160.175.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D255037B4C5 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 48332 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2000 00:51:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO diskfarm.firehouse.net) (10.0.0.28) by 192.168.1.2 with SMTP; 27 Nov 2000 00:51:51 -0000 Received: (from abc@localhost) by diskfarm.firehouse.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eAR0v4m61105; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:57:04 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from abc) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:57:04 -0500 From: Alan Clegg To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC Message-ID: <20001126195704.C56190@diskfarm.firehouse.net> References: <20001126143720.I70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20001126143720.I70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com>; from cjclark@reflexnet.net on Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 02:37:20PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Unless the network is lying to me again, Crist J . Clark said: > Anyone have recommendations for a good DVD player? And a vendor? Sony, PlayStation 2, of-course... eBay 508168617 (yeah, it's my second one). Plays DVDs, audio CDs, PlayStation games, Playstation 2 games, etc etc etc... AlanC {am I allowed to take advantage of -chat like this? 8-} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 26 16:54:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from apoq.skynet.be (apoq.skynet.be [195.238.2.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA4D137B479 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:54:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (dialup1873.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.235.81]) by apoq.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F28F9B1C; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 01:54:28 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@195.238.1.45 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20001126153123.J70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> References: <20001126143720.I70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20001126153123.J70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 01:53:16 +0100 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:31 PM -0800 2000/11/26, Crist J . Clark wrote: > I don't have any laser disks (old girlfriend has 'em and I'm not going > to get them), so that is not a option I would look for. Fair enough. > The only thing I definately want is good regular ol' CD audio. This > will be the primary audio CD player too, but I have yet to see a DVD > player that does not claim to play audio CDs. Since it will be doing > that, I want it have a reasonably sized changer, say >=5 > DVDs/CDs. I've already got a good AV receiver, so it does not need its > own mega-amp for speakers. Keep in mind that stereo audio systems and multimedia audio systems tend to be optimized for different things, and the same is true for CD players versus DVD players. When you look at the benchmarks, there is very little measurable difference between any of the modern CD players -- they all come pretty close to meeting or exceed what most test equipment can reliably measure, leaving the quantifiable differences way down in the noise. However, there is not a DVD player on the planet (for which I've seen a review) that comes anywhere close to providing the quality of CD performance as even the *worst* "real" CD player. Now, you may not have the ears to be able to distinguish between them, but all the reviews I've seen have seriously marked down the DVD players on this issue. Therefore, I would recommend either using this as merely an interim CD player (until you can afford to get a "real" one), or deciding from Day One that you simply won't even try to use this thing to play CDs, and will instead focus your attention on getting just the DVD features you want/need for the price you want/need. The same goes for the sound system. Very bloody few of them do well at both jobs, because they try to achieve diametrically opposed goals. A good stereo system will try to ensure maximum separation of the channels and maximum resolution of the sound stage, so that you can *precisely* place the solo flute player and distinguish that position in your mind from the solo violin player. Contrariwise, a good multimedia sound system will try to seamlessly merge everything together into one all-encompassing sound envelope, with multiple speakers firing sideways or even backwards to help spread the sound out even more, so that you cannot locate any particular sounds unless the director specifically wants you to. They want to give you a feeling of being in a phone booth, a concert auditorium, or otherwise right in the middle of the action, and the way they do that is by very carefully controlling the time delays and the volume used between when a particular sound comes out of one speaker and when it comes out of another. Therefore, a good multimedia sound system tends to make a poor stereo sound system, and vice-versa. Of course, you may not care. But this is still an issue you should be aware of, and at least have the option to make a conscious decision. > As for price, the thing is that they are all so scattered with little > direct correlation to options. I don't want to pay an extra $100 for a > little name on the front when the hardware in the box is the > same. (That's the same as the PC world.) It's hard for me to come up > with a target when I have no real feel for the prices. I try to get a > feel, say at buy.com, and they range from $150 to $350 on the banner > page. Quite reasonable you say. Go to their 'Top of the Line' page and > we're up to $1500... So where is the reasonable middle (OK, all of the >>$1k choices look a bit out there: "From its hermetically sealed door > to its all copper chassis"?) I'd recommend that you decide the options you want first, and the brand names you're willing to buy from second. I wouldn't go with any brand names you don't recognize, even if today they may be built by a company whose name you do, and on a production line side-by-side with the more expensive components. The reason is simple -- the no-name brand vendor could change tomorrow who their supplier is, and the result could very well be pure crap. And your after-sales support is likely to suck, too. Once you've decided what options you want and what brand names you're willing to look at, I'd recommend checking out some magazines such as _Stereo Review_ (now _Stereo Review's Sound and Vision_), _Stereophile's Guide to Home Theater_, _What HiFi_, etc... and do some more research on the issue. As far as this sort of thing goes, absolutely nothing can replace doing your homework. Once you've done your homework and you have a revised list of features you want and brand names you are willing to look at, then you need to go down to a store that actually has the equipment in question and try it out. Bring along your own DVDs and CDs that you know very well, and play the sections you think will stress the equipment the best, showing either its weaknesses or its strengths. Better audiophile shops will let take equipment home and try it out, and if you're not happy you can bring it back (but you have to do so within a reasonable period of time). They do this because they know that satisfied customers are more likely to be repeat customers, and that's where they make most of their money (they also make some by selling installation/customization services for people who are unable or unwilling to put everything together themselves). > I guess what would really like would be some good URLs. When searching > for info on this kind of stuff, first you get overwhelmed by hits on > seller sites. Once you get those cleared out its still hard to figure > out who knows what they are talking about and what is just baiscally > an ad posing as a critique or someone venting on how bad the hardware > is when they really can't read an instruction manual. Sorry, I know some magazines I like for this sort of stuff, but I don't know of any web pages that are useful. I can give you links for the above-named magazines, however: Stereo Review's Sound and Vision: (well-rated at e-pinions, see ) Stereophile Guide to Home Theater: (not quite as widely reviewed at e-pinions, see ) What! HiFi: See also the mozilla.org directory at . Most any of these that are associated with a print magazine are going to be at least decent. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 26 17:15:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from neo.skynet.be (neo.skynet.be [195.238.2.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2588037B479 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 17:15:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (dialup1873.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.235.81]) by neo.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0872E6D1F; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 02:14:22 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@195.238.1.45 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20001126143720.I70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20001126153123.J70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 02:15:47 +0100 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:53 AM +0100 2000/11/27, Brad Knowles wrote: > However, there is not a DVD player on the planet (for which I've > seen a review) that comes anywhere close to providing the quality > of CD performance as even the *worst* "real" CD player. Now, you > may not have the ears to be able to distinguish between them, but > all the reviews I've seen have seriously marked down the DVD > players on this issue. I take this back. I just pulled out my _What! HiFi_ 2000 Awards issue, and found some 5-star DVD players in the "Buyers Guide" section back in the back, where they are noted for having good CD playback. Note that prices are in UK Pounds, not US Dollars: make/model price comments ---------- ----- -------- Hitachi DV-P250 300 PRODUCT OF THE YEAR 2000 Excellent picture and GOOD CD PLAYBACK Nakamichi DVD-10s 600 Fab player that makes a persuasive argument for having ONE BOX TO SPIN YOUR DVDS AND CDS Panasonic DVD-RV60 450 A DVD PLAYER TO DIE FOR. The pictures are sensational and so is its CD performance Pioneer DC-626D 450 Makes for a TRULY SUPERB HOME CINEMA SOURCE and has fine CD replay too (Supertest winner) Samsung DVD-909 399 A DVD-709 with add facilities, notably a Dolby Digital decoder Sony DVP-S725 490 PRODUCT OF THE YEAR 1999 Excellent decoder and competent stereo Sony DVP-CX8500 600 BEST BUY in 2000 Awards. 200-disc changer that can play CDs, Video CDs, and DVDs. Sony DVP-S7700 799 Remarkable DVD player with EXCELLENT SOUND QUALITY and picture Toshiba SD-2109 300 The best picture sensible money can buy and FANTASTIC SOUND -- we love this player Toshiba SD-9000 750 BEST BUY in the 1999 Awards. The best picture we've seen from the DVD format Wharfedale DVD-750 180 TERRIFIC VALUE movie source with a multi- region hack -- good budget CD player too See the _What! HiFi_ web site that I previous mentioned for more details (e.g., exact features, etc...). -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 26 20:48:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (CDR22-173.accesscable.net [24.138.22.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F33837B4E5 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 20:48:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eAR4luu08977 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 00:47:56 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 00:47:55 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Any numbers ... ? Percentage deployment ... ? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone know of any current stats on deployment, say that netcraft generates or *something*? % growth, etc? Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 27 10: 1:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 787EB37B479 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eARI0pc10940; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:00:51 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:00:51 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: Brad Knowles Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC Message-ID: <20001127100051.A31319@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20001126143720.I70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20001126153123.J70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from blk@skynet.be on Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 01:53:16AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 01:53:16AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > The same goes for the sound system. Very bloody few of them do > well at both jobs, because they try to achieve diametrically opposed > goals. This is likely to be true with most low to midrange equipment from major consumer electronics manufactures, but it's not entierly true. I know two hardcore audiophiles with hardware investments over $40K who have merged their home theater and stereo systems, resulting in systems that are certaintly no worse then either of the seperate systems. -- Brooks To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 27 14:48:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from neo.skynet.be (neo.skynet.be [195.238.2.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 891DD37B479 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 14:48:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup1148.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.232.124]) by neo.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D7A06B8A; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:47:42 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@195.238.1.45 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20001127100051.A31319@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20001126143720.I70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20001126153123.J70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20001127100051.A31319@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:44:45 +0100 To: Brooks Davis From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:00 AM -0800 2000/11/27, Brooks Davis wrote: > This is likely to be true with most low to midrange equipment from > major consumer electronics manufactures, but it's not entierly true. > I know two hardcore audiophiles with hardware investments over $40K who > have merged their home theater and stereo systems, resulting in systems > that are certaintly no worse then either of the seperate systems. Yes, if you spend enough money you can probably get a stereo system that does not suffer from these problems. But those aren't the reviews I read, because I don't make enough money in ten years to pay for that kind of equipment. However, if you want to spend the kind of money that Crist apparently does, then this is certainly an issue I think that he's going to have to at least think about. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 27 16:45:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from icicle.winternet.com (icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5149A37B479 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 16:45:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from tundra.winternet.com (nrahlstr@tundra.winternet.com [198.174.169.11]) by icicle.winternet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3mc) with ESMTP id SAA27779 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:45:07 -0600 (CST) SMTP "HELO" (ESMTP) greeting from tundra.winternet.com But _really_ from :: nrahlstr@tundra.winternet.com [198.174.169.11] SMTP "MAIL From" = nrahlstr@mail.winternet.com (Nathan Ahlstrom) SMTP "RCPT To" = Received: (from nrahlstr@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) id SAA16241 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:45:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:45:06 -0600 From: Nathan Ahlstrom To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: recent -current ISO's?? Message-ID: <20001127184505.A16100@winternet.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone know where I can get a ISO with the newly integrated cardbus bits on it? Does such a thing even exist? -- Nathan Ahlstrom / nrahlstr@winternet.com / nra@FreeBSD.org / PGP: 0x67BC9D19 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 27 16:58:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31B0C37B479 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 16:58:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA19306; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 16:58:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:12:30 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Nathan Ahlstrom Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: recent -current ISO's?? In-Reply-To: <20001127184505.A16100@winternet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Nathan Ahlstrom wrote: > Anyone know where I can get a ISO with the newly integrated cardbus > bits on it? Does such a thing even exist? You might check the release notes for 4.2. ISOs are only created for releases. -current and -stable are development branches. To create an ISO for a moving target would be folly. Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 27 17:20:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from updraft.jp.freebsd.org (updraft.jp.FreeBSD.ORG [210.157.158.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D17CC37B4C5 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:20:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from castle2.jp.FreeBSD.org (castle2.jp.FreeBSD.org [210.226.20.120]) by updraft.jp.freebsd.org (8.9.3+3.2W/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA35286 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:20:21 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castle2.jp.FreeBSD.org (8.11.0+3.3W/8.11.0) with ESMTP/inet id eAS1KKs62030 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:20:20 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org) In-Reply-To: <20001127184505.A16100@winternet.com> References: <20001127184505.A16100@winternet.com> X-Face: '*aj"d@ijeQ:/X}]oM5c5Uz{ZZZk90WPt>a^y4$cGQp8:!H\W=hSM;PuNiidkc]/%,;6VGu e+`&APmz|P;F~OL/QK%;P2vU>\j4X.8@i%j6[%DTs_3J,Fff0)*oHg$A.cDm&jc#pD24WK@{,"Ef!0 P\):.2}8jo-BiZ?X&t$V X-User-Agent: Mew/1.94.2 XEmacs/21.2 (Notus) X-FaceAnim: (-O_O-)(O_O- )(_O- )(O- )(- -)( -O)( -O_)( -O_O)(-O_O-) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 12 From: Makoto MATSUSHITA To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: recent -current ISO's?? Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:20:17 +0900 Message-Id: <20001128102017C.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org nrahlstr> Anyone know where I can get a ISO with the newly integrated nrahlstr> cardbus bits on it? Does such a thing even exist? If it comes from the FreeBSD CVS repository only, here you are: Fetch 'nopkg-current.iso' if you don't want to get packages. -- - Makoto `MAR' MATSUSHITA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 27 23:26:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF03137B401 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:26:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:24:41 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eAS7Q9k83009; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:26:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:26:09 -0800 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NATD: failed to write packet back (Permission denied) Message-ID: <20001127232609.P70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <001701c057c4$1e1ac010$0200a8c0@n2> <20001126110756.C34151@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <000b01c057dd$f9423ab0$0200a8c0@n2> <20001126113720.A70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <3A2183E7.6039C582@FreeBSD.org> <20001126140033.E70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <3A218C5B.9F677E51@FreeBSD.org> <200011270130.UAA88239@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <3A221402.D88321D8@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <3A221402.D88321D8@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 12:57:54AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 12:57:54AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: [snip] > Since I have T-1 speeds coming into said basement, it is entirely likely > that somebody may notice and attempt to hijack one or more of my machines > to use in a DDOS attack. In fact, somebody already has tried. And failed. Aww... C'mon, you lay on a little more drama than that. With the new _Dune_ series coming on the Sci-Fi Channel I can't help but read this and say: > Since I have T-1 speeds coming into said basement, it is entirely likely > that somebody may notice and attempt to hijack one or more of my machines > to use in a DDOS attack. In fact, somebody already has tried. > They tried and failed? > No, they tried and died. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 6:32:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from oden.exmandato.se (oden.exmandato.se [192.71.33.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1B037B400; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 06:32:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from servicefactory.se (root@oden.exmandato.se [192.71.33.1]) by oden.exmandato.se (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA08185; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:32:08 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3A23C1E7.9AA49BA1@servicefactory.se> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:32:07 +0100 From: Jonas Bulow X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-mobie@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Thinkpads Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.pc.ibm.com/qtechinfo/MIGR-4QHLS4.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 7:56:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ra.nks.net (ra.nks.net [208.226.218.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C7C37B400 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 07:56:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (joeo@localhost) by ra.nks.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08060 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:38:54 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:38:54 -0500 (EST) From: X-Sender: joeo@ra.nks.net To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Netbsd advances... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just noticed this over on the netbsd home page... UBC code integrated into NetBSD-current (27 Nov) (top) Chuck Silvers has integrated the Unified Buffer Cache project code into NetBSD-current. To build a new -current kernel from an existing kernel configuration file, you'll want to remove any settings for "BUFCACHE", "NBUF", or "BUFPAGES", and let the size of the buffer cache go back to the default. After that, you'll need to rerun config, and then you can build away. Under UBC, the traditional buffer cache is no longer used for storing regular data, only metadata, so you'll want to allow the VM system to manage most of your physical memory. The default buffer cache size will be fine for most people, regardless of the amount of memory in the machine. What does this mean for you? For most people, more memory will be available for caching regular file data, so filesystem i/o will be faster since there will be more times when the data you're accessing is already in memory. How much faster depends on what you're doing, but you'll probably notice the difference. More information is available in Chuck's announcement in the current-users mail archive. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 8:12:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailtoaster1.pipeline.ch (mailtoaster1.pipeline.ch [62.48.0.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5BEFB37B400 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 08:12:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 84563 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2000 16:10:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO telehouse.ch) ([62.48.0.139]) (envelope-sender ) by mailtoaster1.pipeline.ch (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 28 Nov 2000 16:10:37 -0000 Message-ID: <3A23D953.A4C4FFD9@telehouse.ch> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:12:03 +0100 From: Andre Oppermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joeo@cracktown.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Netbsd advances... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org AFAIK FreeBSD does this for five years now... nothing new in little china. joeo@cracktown.com wrote: > > Just noticed this over on the netbsd home page... > > UBC code integrated into NetBSD-current (27 Nov) (top) > > Chuck Silvers has integrated the Unified Buffer Cache project code > into NetBSD-current. To build a new -current kernel from an existing > kernel configuration file, you'll want to remove any settings for > "BUFCACHE", "NBUF", or "BUFPAGES", and let the size of the buffer cache go > back to the default. After that, you'll need to rerun config, and then you > can build away. > > Under UBC, the traditional buffer cache is no longer used for storing > regular data, only metadata, so you'll want to allow the VM system to > manage most of your physical memory. The default buffer cache size will be > fine for most people, regardless of the amount of memory in the machine. > > What does this mean for you? For most people, more memory will be > available for caching regular file data, so filesystem i/o will be faster > since there will be more times when the data you're accessing is already > in memory. How much faster depends on what you're doing, but you'll > probably notice the difference. > > More information is available in Chuck's announcement in the > current-users mail archive. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 8:21:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ra.nks.net (ra.nks.net [208.226.218.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63AFC37B400 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 08:21:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (joeo@localhost) by ra.nks.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08140; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:04:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:04:23 -0500 (EST) From: X-Sender: joeo@ra.nks.net To: Andre Oppermann Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Netbsd advances... In-Reply-To: <3A23D953.A4C4FFD9@telehouse.ch> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes, I know FreeBSD had a merged buffer cache for the 1.1.5 release and I think everything after the 2.2 release. Just nice to see that the end user perceived performance of netbsd may finally get to the point where I could stand to use it (especially on older hardware). On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Andre Oppermann wrote: > > AFAIK FreeBSD does this for five years now... nothing new in little > china. > > joeo@cracktown.com wrote: > > > > Just noticed this over on the netbsd home page... > > > > UBC code integrated into NetBSD-current (27 Nov) (top) > > > > Chuck Silvers has integrated the Unified Buffer Cache project code > > into NetBSD-current. To build a new -current kernel from an existing > > kernel configuration file, you'll want to remove any settings for > > "BUFCACHE", "NBUF", or "BUFPAGES", and let the size of the buffer cache go > > back to the default. After that, you'll need to rerun config, and then you > > can build away. > > > > Under UBC, the traditional buffer cache is no longer used for storing > > regular data, only metadata, so you'll want to allow the VM system to > > manage most of your physical memory. The default buffer cache size will be > > fine for most people, regardless of the amount of memory in the machine. > > > > What does this mean for you? For most people, more memory will be > > available for caching regular file data, so filesystem i/o will be faster > > since there will be more times when the data you're accessing is already > > in memory. How much faster depends on what you're doing, but you'll > > probably notice the difference. > > > > More information is available in Chuck's announcement in the > > current-users mail archive. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 8:27: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from epcot.revenio.com (unknown [209.202.137.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2AF1837B6A0 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 08:27:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 80635 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2000 16:27:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gaston) (10.0.3.49) by epcot.revenio.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 2000 16:27:01 -0000 Message-ID: <000701c05958$09651ef0$3103000a@gaston> Reply-To: "Nicholas Basila" From: "Nicholas Basila" To: Cc: , , References: Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Thinkpads Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:21:16 -0500 Organization: Revenio, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmmm, Well, I never liked their laptops, anyway. I'm surprised they don't support RH Linux. I'm glad to know that they support all the lousy MS operating systems ... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonas Bulow [mailto:jonas.bulow@servicefactory.se] > Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 9:32 AM > To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; freebsd-mobie@freebsd.org; > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer > Thinkpads > > > http://www.pc.ibm.com/qtechinfo/MIGR-4QHLS4.html > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 8:36: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 773C437B400; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 08:35:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15071; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:35:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001128093226.048f4cf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:35:17 -0700 To: "Nicholas Basila" , From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Thinkpads Cc: , , In-Reply-To: <000701c05958$09651ef0$3103000a@gaston> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org IBM's tactics are the old "bait and switch." They want users to move to AIX, not FreeBSD or Linux. Unfortunately, their PR people have pretended to jump on the Linux bandwagon in a big way, and this hurts the BSDs. --Brett At 09:21 AM 11/28/2000, Nicholas Basila wrote: >Hmmm, > > Well, I never liked their laptops, anyway. I'm surprised they don't >support RH Linux. I'm glad to know that they support all the lousy MS >operating systems ... > > > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jonas Bulow [mailto:jonas.bulow@servicefactory.se] >> Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 9:32 AM >> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; freebsd-mobie@freebsd.org; >> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org >> Subject: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer >> Thinkpads >> >> >> http://www.pc.ibm.com/qtechinfo/MIGR-4QHLS4.html >> >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message >> > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 8:51:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-187.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.187]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF09837B400; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 08:51:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eASGwoF25493; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 08:58:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200011281658.eASGwoF25493@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Nicholas Basila" , jonas.bulow@servicefactory.se, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-mobile@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Thinkpads In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:35:17 MST." <4.3.2.7.2.20001128093226.048f4cf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 08:58:49 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If anyone listening to this lives near Brett, we'd all appreciate it if you'd drop by and talk him into taking up the medication again. Thanks. > IBM's tactics are the old "bait and switch." They want users to > move to AIX, not FreeBSD or Linux. Unfortunately, their PR people > have pretended to jump on the Linux bandwagon in a big way, and > this hurts the BSDs. > > --Brett > > At 09:21 AM 11/28/2000, Nicholas Basila wrote: > > >Hmmm, > > > > Well, I never liked their laptops, anyway. I'm surprised they don't > >support RH Linux. I'm glad to know that they support all the lousy MS > >operating systems ... > > > > > > > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Jonas Bulow [mailto:jonas.bulow@servicefactory.se] > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 9:32 AM > >> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; freebsd-mobie@freebsd.org; > >> freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > >> Subject: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer > >> Thinkpads > >> > >> > >> http://www.pc.ibm.com/qtechinfo/MIGR-4QHLS4.html > >> > >> > >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > >> > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-mobile" in the body of the message > -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 9:20:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22A7837B400 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:20:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@dhcp246.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.246]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eASHJxC82778; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:19:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:20:12 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Re: recent -current ISO's?? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Nathan Ahlstrom Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 28-Nov-00 Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Nathan Ahlstrom wrote: > >> Anyone know where I can get a ISO with the newly integrated cardbus >> bits on it? Does such a thing even exist? > > You might check the release notes for 4.2. > > ISOs are only created for releases. -current and -stable are development > branches. To create an ISO for a moving target would be folly. Not necessarily, we have nightly snapshots of both branches on releng4.freebsd.org and current.freebsd.org for FTP installs. We could make simple ISO images for each snapshot (without packages, but probably with X) if there is enough diskspace / will power / time to do so. > Thank you, > Jason C. Wells -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 9:38:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3267837B400 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:38:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D05D180FC; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:38:14 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@195.238.1.45 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:31:57 +0100 To: , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Netbsd advances... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:38 AM -0500 2000/11/28, wrote: > UBC code integrated into NetBSD-current (27 Nov) (top) > > Chuck Silvers has integrated the Unified Buffer Cache project code > into NetBSD-current. To build a new -current kernel from an existing > kernel configuration file, you'll want to remove any settings for > "BUFCACHE", "NBUF", or "BUFPAGES", and let the size of the buffer cache go > back to the default. After that, you'll need to rerun config, and then you > can build away. This brings up a good question -- does FreeBSD have a unified buffer cache? If not, is there a particular reason why? -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 9:54:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D60B37B400 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA03370; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:52:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200011281752.JAA03370@implode.root.com> To: Brad Knowles Cc: joeo@cracktown.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netbsd advances... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:31:57 +0100." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:52:08 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >At 11:38 AM -0500 2000/11/28, wrote: > >> UBC code integrated into NetBSD-current (27 Nov) (top) >> >> Chuck Silvers has integrated the Unified Buffer Cache project code >> into NetBSD-current. To build a new -current kernel from an existing >> kernel configuration file, you'll want to remove any settings for >> "BUFCACHE", "NBUF", or "BUFPAGES", and let the size of the buffer cache go >> back to the default. After that, you'll need to rerun config, and then you >> can build away. > > This brings up a good question -- does FreeBSD have a unified >buffer cache? If not, is there a particular reason why? Yes, for many years now - since before FreeBSD 2.0. -DG David Greenman Co-founder, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org President, TeraSolutions, Inc. - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 9:58: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF6AD37B404; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA05195; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:54:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAASPaG3j; Tue Nov 28 10:53:57 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA09532; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:57:28 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011281757.KAA09532@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Thinkpads To: msmith@FreeBSD.ORG (Mike Smith) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:57:28 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), nbasila@epcot.revenio.com (Nicholas Basila), jonas.bulow@servicefactory.se, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-mobile@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200011281658.eASGwoF25493@mass.osd.bsdi.com> from "Mike Smith" at Nov 28, 2000 08:58:49 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >Hmmm, > > > > > > Well, I never liked their laptops, anyway. I'm surprised they don't > > >support RH Linux. I'm glad to know that they support all the lousy MS > > >operating systems ... > > > > IBM's tactics are the old "bait and switch." They want users to > > move to AIX, not FreeBSD or Linux. Unfortunately, their PR people > > have pretended to jump on the Linux bandwagon in a big way, and > > this hurts the BSDs. > > If anyone listening to this lives near Brett, we'd all appreciate it if > you'd drop by and talk him into taking up the medication again. I think he was commenting on the surprise expressed that RH Linux was not listed as a supported OS. As a former insider, I have to say that there is a very large and vocal Linux advocacy, to the point of having internal conferences on Linux, hosted at Almaden research center, where one of the primary focii was internal Linux advocacy. The IBM PR machine loves Linux, since Linux gets you column-space in trade rags, and anything that looks like an attack on the Microsoft oligarchy/hegemony is considered "fit to print", or at least "proper editorial cannon fodder". But I have to say that I'm not at all surprised about the Linux "omission", or the phrasing of the statements about "Caldera OpenLinux" and "Do not install a non-supported operating system". The lawyers have quite a different take: if you want to use GPL code, or any other code with a source distribution requirement, you are required to attend a "handling toxic waste that will destroy your patent rights" class, before you are allowed to even touch it. You also have to get "cleared" copies of the code from internal IBM servers, so that IBM patents aren't infringed by you using a newer version of the code. There is an 18 page presentation that most of the internal search engines will point you to, when you are going through the exercise of trying to find information internally. It boils down to "how to double-glove before putting on your biohazard suit to enter a class 5 hot zone containing live Ebola". FWIW, the "recovery procedure" they allude to is to use their recovery CDROM, which will basically repartition and reinstall the default software that came with the machine. I'll guess that they don't recommend specific recovery instructions (and refer only to "various utilities") as a hold harmless measure, since the recovery CD will effectively blow away any user data on the drive, and they don't want to be held responsible for that. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 10:10: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-187.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.187]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FEA937B404; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:09:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eASIHSF25817; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:17:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200011281817.eASIHSF25817@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: /dev/null@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Thinkpads In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:57:28 GMT." <200011281757.KAA09532@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:17:28 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This was crossposted to too many lists, reply-to set to a useful subset. > FWIW, the "recovery procedure" they allude to is to use their > recovery CDROM, which will basically repartition and reinstall the > default software that came with the machine. I'll guess that they > don't recommend specific recovery instructions (and refer only to > "various utilities") as a hold harmless measure, since the > recovery CD will effectively blow away any user data on the drive, > and they don't want to be held responsible for that. Actually, the "recovery procedure" involves removing the harddisk, since the BIOS code in question that fails does so before the boot process starts, and with a FreeBSD partition on the disk, you never get to boot at all. This has been discussed on -mobile already, and any interested party is encouraged to consult the archives. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 10:16:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64EFF37B401 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:16:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA19205; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:17:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAABjayxL; Tue Nov 28 11:17:12 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA10149; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:16:31 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011281816.LAA10149@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Netbsd advances... To: blk@skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:16:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: joeo@cracktown.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Nov 28, 2000 06:31:57 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This brings up a good question -- does FreeBSD have a unified > buffer cache? If not, is there a particular reason why? FreeBSD has a unified VM and buffer cache. I believe FreeBSD had this before a commercial UNIX did... over six years ago. But life is not all a bowl of cherries. Actually, the removal of explicit VM and buffer cache synchronization points in the FreeBSD FS implementations was arguably premature, since it makes it much harder to synchronize VM objects associated with stacked vnodes. The reason FreeBSD diked out LFS was that the LFS code was not maintained over the switch-over, and languished without a champion for long enough that the complaints about it crashing, with no patches, outweighed having it hang around in the main source tree (which is why it's in the attic). Ideally, there would be a BSD still around without a unified VM and buffer cache, and VFS code would be made portable between FreeBSD and that system, which would maintain the best of both worlds. The lack of explicit synchronization points also means it is harder to proxy operations; this means both over a network, and over the user/kernel boundary. One of the original goals of the Heidemann VFS stacking framework was to allow proxy by decriptor, so that a system which did not understand a particular VOP could still proxy it to a system which did. Another original goal was the ability to proxy over the user/kernel boundary, so that a pure VFS layer (and potentially, an impure one, which did not have the descriptor interface on both the top and the bottom) could be developed and debuged in a user space developement framework. Doing explicit coherency over a network or over a protection domain boundary requires explicit synchronization between backing objects, when those objects have different scopes (see the "nfsnode" synchronization via the pager VOPs, in the NFS code, and see some of the recent glue code that had to be added to nullfs, but still fails to completely and fully maintain object coherency in the mmap() case -- you knew msync() had to be there in user space code for a reason, right?). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 10:27:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A23D137B402; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:26:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA18217; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:22:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA.Ga4FJ; Tue Nov 28 11:22:21 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA10263; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:26:38 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011281826.LAA10263@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Thinkpads To: /dev/null@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:26:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200011281817.eASIHSF25817@mass.osd.bsdi.com> from "Mike Smith" at Nov 28, 2000 10:17:28 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > FWIW, the "recovery procedure" they allude to is to use their > > recovery CDROM, which will basically repartition and reinstall the > > default software that came with the machine. I'll guess that they > > don't recommend specific recovery instructions (and refer only to > > "various utilities") as a hold harmless measure, since the > > recovery CD will effectively blow away any user data on the drive, > > and they don't want to be held responsible for that. > > Actually, the "recovery procedure" involves removing the harddisk, since > the BIOS code in question that fails does so before the boot process > starts, and with a FreeBSD partition on the disk, you never get to boot > at all. > > This has been discussed on -mobile already, and any interested party is > encouraged to consult the archives. I think this presumes that the HD is examined at boot time, instead of stopping once the system sees a bootable CDROM, which is the normal case when doing a recovery. You should talk to Evan Oldford (evan@whistle.com, eoldford@us.ibm.com) about his experiences recovering with the recovery CDROM, after having trashed several models of thinkpads with FreeBSD installs gone wrong. Obviously, you could also recover by removing the hard drive and zapping it, but the technical note referred to by the original author of this subject specifically states that there are utilities that can recover the HDD to a bootable state: "The HDD can be recovered to make the system bootable again using various utilities. However, IBM does not recommend any specific utility or support the use of any of these utilities." I think the "magic" combo to force it to ignore the HDD is something like "Alt-F6" during boot, but don't quote me: it's printed in the ThinkPad manual that comes with each ThinkPad. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 10:39:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from apoq.skynet.be (apoq.skynet.be [195.238.2.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A25C37B400 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:39:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by apoq.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1FDA9CE6; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:39:38 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@195.238.1.45 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200011281752.JAA03370@implode.root.com> References: <200011281752.JAA03370@implode.root.com> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:35:57 +0100 To: dg@root.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Netbsd advances... Cc: joeo@cracktown.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:52 AM -0800 2000/11/28, David Greenman wrote: >> This brings up a good question -- does FreeBSD have a unified >>buffer cache? If not, is there a particular reason why? > > Yes, for many years now - since before FreeBSD 2.0. Cool. I like already having features for many years that others are just having now. ;-) -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 10:39:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from apoq.skynet.be (apoq.skynet.be [195.238.2.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E63B37B404 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:39:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by apoq.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 797AA9A8B; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:39:41 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@195.238.1.45 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:38:26 +0100 To: , Andre Oppermann From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Netbsd advances... Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:04 PM -0500 2000/11/28, wrote: > Yes, I know FreeBSD had a merged buffer cache for the 1.1.5 release and I > think everything after the 2.2 release. Just nice to see that the end > user perceived performance of netbsd may finally get to the point where I > could stand to use it (especially on older hardware). Excellent. Anybody know if it is now useable on older PCI PowerMac hardware, such as the 7200? I'd much rather use this thing as a *BSD server than to let it sit and gather dust, which is basically what it's doing right now. I could spend money and get a logic board upgrade to something that would let me drop in a G3 or G4 chip, but even then I probably still wouldn't be able to run MacOS X, and for that kind of money I might as well get a brand-new machine anyway. However, if my only real option is still to run LinuxPPC, I think I'll wait a while longer. I don't mind using Linux where it makes sense to do so here at work, but I'm not motivated at all to use it at home. But installing and using *BSD at home is something I could get interested in.... Thanks! -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 10:50:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45F1F37B402 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:50:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (right/backatcha) with ESMTP id eASInu022341; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:49:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:49:56 -0500 (EST) From: Trevor Johnson To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netbsd advances... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Excellent. Anybody know if it is now useable on older PCI > PowerMac hardware, such as the 7200? I'd much rather use this thing > as a *BSD server than to let it sit and gather dust, which is > basically what it's doing right now. > > I could spend money and get a logic board upgrade to something > that would let me drop in a G3 or G4 chip, but even then I probably > still wouldn't be able to run MacOS X, and for that kind of money I > might as well get a brand-new machine anyway. Benno Rice (benno@freebsd.org) is porting FreeBSD to PowerPC. From what I've heard, Darwin is worth trying (see http://www.darwinfo.org). -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 11:23:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.tfcc.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E76F037B400 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:23:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by proxy.tfcc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA27354; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:23:00 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: proxy.tfcc.com: mail set sender to using -f Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by proxy.tfcc.com via smap (V2.1/2.1a) id xma027343; Tue, 28 Nov 00 14:22:57 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:22:54 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Fuhrman X-Sender: To: Cc: Todd Williams Subject: Messing with headers Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Howdy, Will the kind soul who is putting /dev/null@FreeBSD.org in their Reply-To field kindly refrain from doing so? Those of us who have mail servers which use smapd are getting curious phone calls from mail admins who are getting even curiouser things in their log files *g*. Thank you :) -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 12:10:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDF8237B400; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eASKA5h54473; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:10:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: Mike Smith Cc: Brett Glass , "Nicholas Basila" , jonas.bulow@servicefactory.se, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Thinkpads In-Reply-To: Message from Mike Smith of "Tue, 28 Nov 2000 08:58:49 PST." <200011281658.eASGwoF25493@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:10:05 -0800 Message-ID: <54469.975442205@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Redirected to -chat] > If anyone listening to this lives near Brett, we'd all appreciate it if > you'd drop by and talk him into taking up the medication again. I'd be happy if everybody could just stop cc'ing this discussion to THREE DIFFERENT MAILING LISTS. Really, -chat, -mobile AND -advocacy is just excessive. This is also covered in the mailing list charters so nobody should be able to claim ignorance or special dispensation for a thread with overlap. Please, trim those cc lines folks! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 13:17:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D928E37B400 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:17:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C1C01755D; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:20:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF3591D89; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:20:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:20:46 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Thinkpads In-Reply-To: <54469.975442205@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Jordan Hubbard wrote: :I'd be happy if everybody could just stop cc'ing this discussion to :THREE DIFFERENT MAILING LISTS. Really, -chat, -mobile AND -advocacy :is just excessive. This is also covered in the mailing list charters :so nobody should be able to claim ignorance or special dispensation :for a thread with overlap. Please, trim those cc lines folks! He's just mad because he wouldn't have seen it if it hadn't come across -mobile. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 14:36:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from apoq.skynet.be (apoq.skynet.be [195.238.2.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E940937B401 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup559.brussels2.skynet.be [195.238.25.47]) by apoq.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7F5A9B6A; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 23:35:52 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@195.238.1.45 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 23:30:29 +0100 To: Trevor Johnson From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Netbsd advances... Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:49 PM -0500 2000/11/28, Trevor Johnson wrote: > Benno Rice (benno@freebsd.org) is porting FreeBSD to PowerPC. From what > I've heard, Darwin is worth trying (see http://www.darwinfo.org). Of course, I would much prefer to support either Darwin or FreeBSD on PowerPC, but I'd also like to be using something that has some reasonable hope of running on older PCI PowerMacintosh computers (such as the 7200, based on the original PowerPC chip but lacking the OpenFirmware boot code), and I'd prefer to be using something that has some reasonable hope of being usable sometime in early 2001. I believe that FreeBSD on PowerPC fails one of these tests, while Darwin on PowerPC fails the other. However, I'd love to be corrected, if someone has appropriate information. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 28 21:22:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from echunga.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B63A637B402; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:22:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by echunga.lemis.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eAT5Hww47427; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:47:58 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:47:48 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Nicholas Basila Cc: jonas.bulow@servicefactory.se, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-mobie@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Thinkpads Message-ID: <20001129154748.A47200@echunga.lemis.com> References: <000701c05958$09651ef0$3103000a@gaston> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <000701c05958$09651ef0$3103000a@gaston>; from nbasila@epcot.revenio.com on Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 11:21:16AM -0500 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 28 November 2000 at 11:21:16 -0500, Nicholas Basila wrote: > On Tuesday, November 28, 2000 9:32 AM, Jonas Bulow wrote: >> >> http://www.pc.ibm.com/qtechinfo/MIGR-4QHLS4.html > > Well, I never liked their laptops, anyway. I'm surprised they don't > support RH Linux. I'm glad to know that they support all the lousy MS > operating systems ... I think this gives the lie to the whole thing. I suspect it's yet another case of left hand/right hand syndrome, and I wouldn't be surprised if it got revoked. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 29 0:43: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7861437B699 for ; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 00:42:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 1412rx-0000SC-00; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 01:45:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3A24C231.A7C4358E@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 01:45:37 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NATD: failed to write packet back (Permission denied) References: <001701c057c4$1e1ac010$0200a8c0@n2> <20001126110756.C34151@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <000b01c057dd$f9423ab0$0200a8c0@n2> <20001126113720.A70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <3A2183E7.6039C582@FreeBSD.org> <20001126140033.E70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <3A218C5B.9F677E51@FreeBSD.org> <200011270130.UAA88239@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <3A221402.D88321D8@softweyr.com> <20001127232609.P70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J . Clark" wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 12:57:54AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > [snip] > > > Since I have T-1 speeds coming into said basement, it is entirely likely > > that somebody may notice and attempt to hijack one or more of my machines > > to use in a DDOS attack. In fact, somebody already has tried. And failed. > > Aww... C'mon, you lay on a little more drama than that. With the new > _Dune_ series coming on the Sci-Fi Channel I can't help but read this > and say: > > > Since I have T-1 speeds coming into said basement, it is entirely likely > > that somebody may notice and attempt to hijack one or more of my machines > > to use in a DDOS attack. In fact, somebody already has tried. > > > They tried and failed? > > > No, they tried and died. There are limits on what we're allowed to do to script kiddies. Sigh. This case begged for a clue-by-four between the eyes. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 29 9: 9:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA0037B402; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:09:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@dhcp246.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.246]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eATH9VC22110; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:09:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20001129144946.C23325@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:09:48 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Nik Clayton Subject: Nik must be getting desperate.. Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 29-Nov-00 Nik Clayton wrote: > On Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 09:02:27AM -0800, Rich Morin wrote: >> Fiddling with sysinstall is, I think, exactly what I'm proposing. > > Send patches, or flowers and chocolates to my girlfriend. Either of > those is likely to get me enough free time to complete this :-) > > N > > PS: Miss Lange, c/o Nik Clayton, BSDi, Royal Albert House, Windsor, > SL4 1BE, UK :-) A little desperate are we? /me ducks -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 29 9:44: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D3B637B698; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:43:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28537; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:43:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001129104056.0496b420@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:43:29 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , msmith@FreeBSD.ORG (Mike Smith) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Thinkpads Cc: nbasila@epcot.revenio.com (Nicholas Basila), jonas.bulow@servicefactory.se, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-mobile@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200011281757.KAA09532@usr08.primenet.com> References: <200011281658.eASGwoF25493@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:57 AM 11/28/2000, Terry Lambert wrote: ... >But I have to say that I'm not at all surprised about the Linux >"omission", or the phrasing of the statements about "Caldera >OpenLinux" and "Do not install a non-supported operating system". > >The lawyers have quite a different take: if you want to use GPL >code, or any other code with a source distribution requirement, >you are required to attend a "handling toxic waste that will >destroy your patent rights" class, before you are allowed to even >touch it. You also have to get "cleared" copies of the code from >internal IBM servers, so that IBM patents aren't infringed by you >using a newer version of the code. > >There is an 18 page presentation that most of the internal search >engines will point you to, when you are going through the exercise >of trying to find information internally. It boils down to "how >to double-glove before putting on your biohazard suit to enter a >class 5 hot zone containing live Ebola". When IBM acquired Whistle, it acquired a product that included, and in fact depended upon, GPLed code because FreeBSD does. How did it handle this situation? Is there any chance that IBM might be interested in helping to free the BSDs from the GPL? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 29 9:47:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F75C37B400; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:47:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28591; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:47:29 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001129104503.049744e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:47:23 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , /dev/null@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Thinkpads Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200011281826.LAA10263@usr08.primenet.com> References: <200011281817.eASIHSF25817@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:26 AM 11/28/2000, Terry Lambert wrote: >I think this presumes that the HD is examined at boot time, >instead of stopping once the system sees a bootable CDROM, >which is the normal case when doing a recovery. If the problem is a BIOS that can't handle a FreeBSD boot sector, perhaps a special boot sector with replacement hard disk BIOS code -- such as the one included in OnTrack Disk Manager -- would serve as a workaround. The problem could also be that the laptop has a suspend/resume feature that's looking for a special partition or DOS file and not finding it. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 29 10:10:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FE1F37B400; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA05140; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:06:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAhzai0j; Wed Nov 29 11:06:07 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19425; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:10:25 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011291810.LAA19425@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:10:25 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001129104056.0496b420@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Nov 29, 2000 10:43:29 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >But I have to say that I'm not at all surprised about the Linux > >"omission", or the phrasing of the statements about "Caldera > >OpenLinux" and "Do not install a non-supported operating system". > > > >The lawyers have quite a different take: if you want to use GPL > >code, or any other code with a source distribution requirement, > >you are required to attend a "handling toxic waste that will > >destroy your patent rights" class, before you are allowed to even > >touch it. You also have to get "cleared" copies of the code from > >internal IBM servers, so that IBM patents aren't infringed by you > >using a newer version of the code. > > > >There is an 18 page presentation that most of the internal search > >engines will point you to, when you are going through the exercise > >of trying to find information internally. It boils down to "how > >to double-glove before putting on your biohazard suit to enter a > >class 5 hot zone containing live Ebola". > > When IBM acquired Whistle, it acquired a product that included, > and in fact depended upon, GPLed code because FreeBSD does. How > did it handle this situation? Is there any chance that IBM might be > interested in helping to free the BSDs from the GPL? There is a difference between tools dependencies and product dependencies. The InterJet is a closed box, and does not ship with a ful developement environment. The way IBM "handled it" was to do due dilligence on all the code that shipped on the InterJet, and with one procedural snag, vetted it for shipment. The actual thing that gave them the most trouble was PHK's "BeerWare" license, which they finally decided didn't really constitute an obligation, since they could just decide to not like the code or find it useful. One thing they did do was force us to rip out SQUID (GPL), since they believe that SQUID infringes a number of IBM patents. They didn't indicate that they were willing to go after the SQUID people about this (probably as suicidal as USL attempting to mung UC Berkeley, from a pure marketing standpoint), but they were unwilling to ship GPL code which they believed embodied IBM patents, since they believed that doing so would grant license to use the patents royalty free. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 29 10:16:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 146B437B400; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:16:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28883; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:16:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001129111306.0498bb60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:15:45 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200011291810.LAA19425@usr08.primenet.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001129104056.0496b420@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:10 AM 11/29/2000, Terry Lambert wrote: >There is a difference between tools dependencies and product >dependencies. The InterJet is a closed box, and does not >ship with a ful developement environment. What about the many GNU userland utilities -- e.g. grep? Surely some of these are available for administration, debugging, recovery, execution by scripts, etc. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 29 10:31:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D438537B400; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:31:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA04014; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:32:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAhFa4Th; Wed Nov 29 11:32:03 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19970; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:31:22 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011291831.LAA19970@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:31:22 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001129111306.0498bb60@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Nov 29, 2000 11:15:45 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >There is a difference between tools dependencies and product > >dependencies. The InterJet is a closed box, and does not > >ship with a ful developement environment. > > What about the many GNU userland utilities -- e.g. grep? > Surely some of these are available for administration, > debugging, recovery, execution by scripts, etc. Or SAMBA, which we also shipped on the box? These were tactical, not strategic; shipping source for these wouldn't matter, since they don't contain any intellectual property that matters to anyone. Let people demand the code if they want: we include a web page with links to the source to everything they could demand, right on the box. FWIW, though: no. These utilities are not available for administration, recovery, or execution of scripts. They are available for debugging, but only to Whistle engineering people (or people who've left, like Archie, Julian, and me, who happen to know the magic incantations and the secret handshake). We all have FreeBSD systems or net access, so we already have source code to these bits. If you think these things would need to be exposed, then you've missed the concept of "embedded system": all InterJet administration was and is intended to be performed via a limited set of externalized interfaces, predominantly the web UI. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 29 11:16: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6A4D37B400; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:15:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29574; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:14:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001129121021.049b31b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:14:10 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200011291831.LAA19970@usr08.primenet.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001129111306.0498bb60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:31 AM 11/29/2000, Terry Lambert wrote: >Or SAMBA, which we also shipped on the box? > >These were tactical, not strategic; shipping source for these >wouldn't matter, since they don't contain any intellectual >property that matters to anyone. Let people demand the code >if they want: we include a web page with links to the source >to everything they could demand, right on the box. It doesn't seem to me that this would avoid the problems you mentioned earlier. GPLed code is still infectious. [Snip] >If you think these things would need to be exposed, then >you've missed the concept of "embedded system": all InterJet >administration was and is intended to be performed via a >limited set of externalized interfaces, predominantly the >web UI. I understand embedded systems very well -- that's one of the things I do. However, as we all know, selection is a much less powerful paradigm than specification, and fixing a box or using it to its full potential often requires the power of a command line. What's more, the strategic UI code almost certainly calls on such utilities to do its work and therefore depends upon them. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 29 13:53:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from burka.carrier.kiev.ua (burka.carrier.kiev.ua [193.193.193.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7E4B37B400 for ; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:53:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from archer@localhost by burka.carrier.kiev.ua id XUO54503 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 23:53:24 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from archer) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 23:53:24 +0200 From: Alexander Litvin To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Are they "powered by BSD" ? Message-ID: <20001129235324.A54439@burka.carrier.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.edmunds.com/edweb/views/red.light/index.html Look at the second picture. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 29 15:37:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (cm-24-246-28-166.toney.mediacom.ispchannel.com [24.246.28.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B7FB37B402; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:37:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eATNbQS59371; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:37:27 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200011292337.eATNbQS59371@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer In-reply-to: Message from Terry Lambert of "Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:10:25 GMT." <200011291810.LAA19425@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:37:26 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: [...] > There is a difference between tools dependencies and product > dependencies. The InterJet is a closed box, and does not > ship with a ful developement environment. > > The way IBM "handled it" was to do due dilligence on all the > code that shipped on the InterJet, and with one procedural > snag, vetted it for shipment. > > The actual thing that gave them the most trouble was PHK's > "BeerWare" license, which they finally decided didn't really > constitute an obligation, since they could just decide to > not like the code or find it useful. I read most everything Terry Lambert posts to the FreeBSD lists for his high S/N ratio and for the laughs I get from stuff like the above. :-) Can you imagine trying to explain to an IBM executive that if he/she were to meet PHK they were obliged to buy him a beer? And that it wouldn't go under "entertainment expense account" but under "royalty payments"? Its sure to add an entire viewgraph to the annual Ethics Training. Complete with a picture of PHK so they would know him when they meet him and not be tricked into buying beers for impostors. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 29 15:47:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30A5237B401; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02786; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:47:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001129164606.00cfb220@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:47:06 -0700 To: David Kelly , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200011292337.eATNbQS59371@grumpy.dyndns.org> References: <200011291810.LAA19425@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:37 PM 11/29/2000, David Kelly wrote: >Can you imagine trying to explain to an IBM executive that if he/she >were to meet PHK they were obliged to buy him a beer? Hey -- I'm still trying to explain to them that they're obliged to make laptops that work! --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 29 16:13:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8120737B400; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:13:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA24531; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:31:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAqaaaLN; Wed Nov 29 11:21:39 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA19741; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:22:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011291822.LAA19741@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:22:27 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), /dev/null@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001129104503.049744e0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Nov 29, 2000 10:47:23 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >I think this presumes that the HD is examined at boot time, > >instead of stopping once the system sees a bootable CDROM, > >which is the normal case when doing a recovery. > > If the problem is a BIOS that can't handle a FreeBSD boot > sector, perhaps a special boot sector with replacement hard > disk BIOS code -- such as the one included in OnTrack Disk > Manager -- would serve as a workaround. The problem > could also be that the laptop has a suspend/resume feature > that's looking for a special partition or DOS file and not > finding it. There are a lot of problems with the FreeBSD bootblocks in "Dangerously Dedicated" mode: 1) Causes divide-by-zero because of invalid/unexpected DOS partition table data, predominantly in a number of SCSI controller BIOS'. 2) Doesn't pass all 7 common boot-sector validation tests. 3) Looks like a boot-sector virus to some BIOS'. 4) Partition type 165 is not recognized by the BIOS in some IBM laptops, resulting in a "suspend to disk" overwriting the initial part of the FreeBSD disklabel and "partition" 'a' with suspend data, trashing it. These are just the immediate, and not incidental or consequential problems. The last one is resolved for Linux in recent BIOS by adding the Linux partition number to the exclusion list, along with the Windows and OS/2 exclusions. Technically, this would be better resolved by using an _inclusion_ list, containing only the permissable suspend partition ID. It can also be worked around in FreeBSD by ensuring that the FreeBSD partition is not the first one, and that the DOS partition table is intact, with a FAT/VFAT partition at the start, and the suspend area unadulterated, before the FreeBSD partition in the DOS table. As you note, the OnTrack Disk Manager code does not have the problem (personally, I use Boot Magic, which comes with Partition Magic Pro from Power Quest Software). I even hacked up a little daemon head bitmap so that it shows a deamon as the boot icon image; I've had less luck replacing the background bitmap, but it never struck me as being critical, anyway... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 29 21:34:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2pub.verizon.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8B5737B400; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:34:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-144-082.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.144.82]) by smtppop2pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id XAA55661250 Wed, 29 Nov 2000 23:33:39 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA02857; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:34:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:34:11 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Clark Message-Id: <200011300534.VAA02857@gte.net> To: dkelly@hiwaay.net, tlambert@primenet.com Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200011292337.eATNbQS59371@grumpy.dyndns.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have some vague memory of PHK not being the type to wear t-shirts, but I get a mental picture of him wearing a shirt that reads "If you're from IBM, you owe me a beer.". [RC] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 29 21:41:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A137337B400; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:41:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-144-082.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.144.82]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id XAA71612083 Wed, 29 Nov 2000 23:36:55 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA02869; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:40:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:40:39 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Clark Message-Id: <200011300540.VAA02869@gte.net> To: brett@lariat.org, dkelly@hiwaay.net, tlambert@primenet.com Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001129164606.00cfb220@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If IBM's laptops ship with MS products, the hardware's portion of the failure rate would be lost in the background noise. The real question is why IBM is going after the Intel market with 5L, when Sun has proven that a slow UNIX looks bad when compared with *BSD and Linux. Intel+commercial_UNIX=touch_of_death? [RC] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 29 21:48:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72FDE37B402; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:48:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA29086; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:44:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAssaaS4; Wed Nov 29 22:44:44 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA05850; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:48:34 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011300548.WAA05850@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 05:48:33 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001129121021.049b31b0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Nov 29, 2000 12:14:10 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Or SAMBA, which we also shipped on the box? > > > >These were tactical, not strategic; shipping source for these > >wouldn't matter, since they don't contain any intellectual > >property that matters to anyone. Let people demand the code > >if they want: we include a web page with links to the source > >to everything they could demand, right on the box. > > It doesn't seem to me that this would avoid the problems > you mentioned earlier. GPLed code is still infectious. Only if you link against it. When was the last time you linked against "grep"? > >If you think these things would need to be exposed, then > >you've missed the concept of "embedded system": all InterJet > >administration was and is intended to be performed via a > >limited set of externalized interfaces, predominantly the > >web UI. > > I understand embedded systems very well -- that's one of the > things I do. However, as we all know, selection is a much > less powerful paradigm than specification, and fixing a > box or using it to its full potential often requires the > power of a command line. What's more, the strategic UI code > almost certainly calls on such utilities to do its work and > therefore depends upon them. People who needed access to a command line, and could actually use one, were such access granted, were not in our target market. There is a Ricoh photocopier and a Ricoh document capture device, both based on FreeBSD. I rather seriously doubt that they ship the code in such a state that you could get a command line, period. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 6: 7:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03EB537B401 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 06:07:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B2A61756B; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 06:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFEB21D89; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 06:10:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 06:10:42 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer In-Reply-To: <200011291822.LAA19741@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: :As you note, the OnTrack Disk Manager code does not have the :problem (personally, I use Boot Magic, which comes with Partition :Magic Pro from Power Quest Software). I even hacked up a little :daemon head bitmap so that it shows a deamon as the boot icon :image; I've had less luck replacing the background bitmap, but :it never struck me as being critical, anyway... I used OS/2's boot manager for a very long time and still would if OS/2 Warp would install on my current hardware, but having also bought Partition Magic, I have found Boot Magic to be a very good replacement. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 7:31:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE73F37B401 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 07:31:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A8195573A5; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:31:47 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:31:47 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: "Daniel J. Zaccariello" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Splash BMP Message-ID: <20001130093147.E16834@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , "Daniel J. Zaccariello" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001126114511.00a8b618@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001126114511.00a8b618@pop.mindspring.com>; from marisombra@mindspring.com on Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 11:46:30AM -0500 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 11:46:30AM -0500, Daniel J. Zaccariello scribbled: | Greets, | | Does anyone have a nice .bmp of our feisty mascot I could use for my boot | up splash screen? If baldwin.cx is still alive, there are some there. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 7:35:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5C9C37B401 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 07:35:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5FCEB573A5; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:35:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:35:20 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC Message-ID: <20001130093520.F16834@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20001126143720.I70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001126143720.I70192@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com>; from cjclark@reflexnet.net on Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 02:37:20PM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 02:37:20PM -0800, Crist J . Clark scribbled: | Anyone have recommendations for a good DVD player? And a vendor? | | I figure consumer electronics items like DVD players have only a | _slightly_ longer lifetime before obsolescence than your typcial PC, | so I want something with good features, but not the top-top of the | line for $2k that will be $500 by spring. http://www.world-import.com/ They have all-region DVD players by Sony and Panasonic that actually have excellent features/sound/video. (Yes, it's all-region, you can watch DVD's from any place in the world.) Hope this helps. :) -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 8:44:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uniqsite.com (adsl-63-197-148-179.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.197.148.179]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A072737B400 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 08:44:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (gfish123@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uniqsite.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA54240 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 08:44:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gfish123@pacbell.net) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 08:44:31 -0800 (PST) From: Gorden Fischer X-Sender: gfish123@uniqsite.com To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: To who should I send my... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org CD unsubscription request? My boss had decided to subscribe for my office so I thought I save a couple of bucks. Gorden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 9:58:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E592F37B400; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:58:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 141Y1Y-0000Pg-00; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:01:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3A269600.5037E51C@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:01:36 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , Mike Smith , Nicholas Basila , jonas.bulow@servicefactory.se, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newerThinkpads References: <200011281658.eASGwoF25493@mass.osd.bsdi.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001129104056.0496b420@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > When IBM acquired Whistle, it acquired a product that included, > and in fact depended upon, GPLed code because FreeBSD does. How > did it handle this situation? Is there any chance that IBM might be > interested in helping to free the BSDs from the GPL? The InterJet is *built with* GPL compilers, but does not *incorporate* any GPL code into the product. That is one of the reasons why several of us push back every time somebody wants to stuff GPL code into the base operating system. But I'm preaching to the choir on this point, aren't I Brett? ;^) (mobile trimmed because this doesn't seem to have anything to do with mobile computing anymore.) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 10:13: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD5337B401 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:13:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (cshumway@localhost) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eAUICq664512; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:12:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from support@bsdi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: pike.osd.bsdi.com: cshumway owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:12:52 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Shumway X-Sender: cshumway@pike.osd.bsdi.com Reply-To: support@bsdi.com To: Gorden Fischer Cc: chat@freebsd.org, support@bsdi.com, Alan Clegg Subject: Re: To who should I send my... [BSDI-Support-Request #73982] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Gorden Fischer wrote: > CD unsubscription request? > > My boss had decided to subscribe for my office so I thought > I save a couple of bucks. Hi, You can send your FreeBSD subscription cancelation requests to orders@osd.bsdi.com, or you can call them at 1-800-786-9907 to have your subscription canclelled. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 10:13:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AB8837B699; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:13:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 141YFv-0000Pu-00; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:16:27 -0700 Message-ID: <3A26997B.2DA9684@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:16:27 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001129111306.0498bb60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001129121021.049b31b0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 11:31 AM 11/29/2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >Or SAMBA, which we also shipped on the box? > > > >These were tactical, not strategic; shipping source for these > >wouldn't matter, since they don't contain any intellectual > >property that matters to anyone. Let people demand the code > >if they want: we include a web page with links to the source > >to everything they could demand, right on the box. > > It doesn't seem to me that this would avoid the problems > you mentioned earlier. GPLed code is still infectious. I'd be concerned about that, too. We've studied the issue and have decided that to put GPLed code in the standard system would be dangerous. It does not appear to be a problem for optional components, so we may use GPL code for elective add-on products. This even drove us to use PostgreSQL rather than MySQL in our product, though MySQL would have been a better fit. I must say I like pgsql a lot better. > I understand embedded systems very well -- that's one of the > things I do. However, as we all know, selection is a much > less powerful paradigm than specification, and fixing a > box or using it to its full potential often requires the > power of a command line. What's more, the strategic UI code > almost certainly calls on such utilities to do its work and > therefore depends upon them. Not if they're not in the box. Using my box to it's full potential doesn't require a command line, because it doesn't have one. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 15: 2:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEE5737B401 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:02:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA27520; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:01:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAqBaWy1; Thu Nov 30 16:00:51 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA23749; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:01:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011302301.QAA23749@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC To: keichii@peorth.iteration.net Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:01:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001130093520.F16834@peorth.iteration.net> from "Michael C . Wu" at Nov 30, 2000 09:35:20 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > | Anyone have recommendations for a good DVD player? And a vendor? > | > | I figure consumer electronics items like DVD players have only a > | _slightly_ longer lifetime before obsolescence than your typcial PC, > | so I want something with good features, but not the top-top of the > | line for $2k that will be $500 by spring. > > http://www.world-import.com/ > They have all-region DVD players by Sony and Panasonic that actually > have excellent features/sound/video. > (Yes, it's all-region, you can watch DVD's from any place in the world.) > Hope this helps. :) Be careful. There are two flavors of "all-region". The first is "region free"; this does not work with some region encoded DVDs. The second is "variable region"; this works with all DVDs, but the region switching may not be automatic; sometimes it requires a dipswitch change, or a "hidden" menu in the onscreen remote options. Region encoding was intended to limit the ability to pirate a DVD in one region, and to sell the pirated DVDs in another; it is very common in one region in particular to priate anything that can be represented as bits (you know who you are: I have several SPAMs from there advertising things like all MS products on a set of CDROMs for $50.00). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 15:16:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B920337B402; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:16:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA27908; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:14:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAOmaWt2; Thu Nov 30 16:14:12 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA24254; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:16:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011302316.QAA24254@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:16:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3A26997B.2DA9684@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Nov 30, 2000 11:16:27 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'd be concerned about that, too. We've studied the issue and have decided > that to put GPLed code in the standard system would be dangerous. It does > not appear to be a problem for optional components, so we may use GPL code > for elective add-on products. This even drove us to use PostgreSQL rather > than MySQL in our product, though MySQL would have been a better fit. The pre-GPL license on MySQL was actually incredibly _worse_ than the GPL. > I must say I like pgsql a lot better. I keep meaning to play with this; does it support triggered mutual replication between two hosts running the code? I really want fault tolerance, load balancing, and automatic fail-over (basically, by having the load all move to one machine instead of two [actually more complicated], so that everyone gets degraded service, instead of some number being denied service entirely). I don't have triggers in the code, but I actuall have MySQL set up for mutual replication via log replay, so that the database and its replica stay more or less synchornized. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 15:28:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A4437B401 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:28:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E21AC573A9; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:28:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:28:43 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Terry Lambert Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC Message-ID: <20001130172843.A28757@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Terry Lambert , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001130093520.F16834@peorth.iteration.net> <200011302301.QAA23749@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200011302301.QAA23749@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 11:01:44PM +0000 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 11:01:44PM +0000, Terry Lambert scribbled: | Be careful. There are two flavors of "all-region". The first | is "region free"; this does not work with some region encoded | DVDs. The second is "variable region"; this works with all DVDs, | but the region switching may not be automatic; sometimes it | requires a dipswitch change, or a "hidden" menu in the onscreen | remote options. I actually bought a set from them, they are of the former type. :) | Region encoding was intended to limit the ability to pirate a | DVD in one region, and to sell the pirated DVDs in another; it | is very common in one region in particular to priate anything | that can be represented as bits (you know who you are: I have | several SPAMs from there advertising things like all MS products | on a set of CDROMs for $50.00). Yes, I know, it is Region 6, China. But like all methods designed to prevent piracy, DVD has failed. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 16:11:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 702DC37B401; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:11:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14837; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:10:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001130170310.049eb740@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:10:40 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200011300548.WAA05850@usr08.primenet.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001129121021.049b31b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:48 PM 11/29/2000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> It doesn't seem to me that this would avoid the problems >> you mentioned earlier. GPLed code is still infectious. > >Only if you link against it. When was the last time you >linked against "grep"? In this case, it's infectious in a different way: It is eliminating truly free alternatives. Use it, and you are facilitating another prong of the GPL agenda: to snuff out other options. The fact that FreeBSD does not provide a non-GPLed grep which is BSD-licensed means that the FSF has succeeded. Also, proponents of the GPL are now opting for an expanded requirement based on the notion of "performance for profit." Just running the code in a situation where you made money from it would trigger a requirement to forfeit one's work. >> I understand embedded systems very well -- that's one of the >> things I do. However, as we all know, selection is a much >> less powerful paradigm than specification, and fixing a >> box or using it to its full potential often requires the >> power of a command line. What's more, the strategic UI code >> almost certainly calls on such utilities to do its work and >> therefore depends upon them. > >People who needed access to a command line, and could actually >use one, were such access granted, were not in our target >market. Ah, but I'm sure that the scripts that run your GUI activate command line utilities behind the scenes -- including, most likely, ones like grep. >There is a Ricoh photocopier and a Ricoh document capture >device, both based on FreeBSD. I rather seriously doubt >that they ship the code in such a state that you could get >a command line, period. I'll have to check with Steve Savitzky on this. (He's a strong open source advocate within Ricoh and may have driven this choice.) My guess is that you can get a command line for the purpose of servicing the machine, perhaps via a TTY port inside the case. But that's not the point. Even if YOU can't get the command line, I'll bet their GUI invokes command line utilities. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 16:43:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C4F437B400 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:43:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eB10hom12674; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:43:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:43:50 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Chris Hill Cc: Brandon Fosdick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: move "Pronunciations" to -chat please Re: Pronunciations Message-ID: <20001130164350.F8051@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <3A26F238.53F6E6E6@glue.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from chris@monochrome.org on Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 07:41:13PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm guilty of replying to this thread as well and it is quite enjoyable, but I think it's time it moved to the chat@freebsd.org list. :) thanks, -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 16:44:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F4C37B404 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:44:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15196; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:44:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001130173952.0495e760@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:41:09 -0700 To: Jamie Bowden , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <200011291822.LAA19741@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:10 AM 11/30/2000, Jamie Bowden wrote: >I used OS/2's boot manager for a very long time and still would if OS/2 >Warp would install on my current hardware, but having also bought >Partition Magic, I have found Boot Magic to be a very good replacement. Do the IBM Boot Manager and Boot Magic replace the BIOS hard disk code as OnTrack Disk Manager does? It seems to me that this is what might be needed to get things working if the original AT BIOS can't handle the drive. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 17:31:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA46D37B402 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:31:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 6AFC9756B; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:35:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 684F61D8F; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:35:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:35:05 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001130173952.0495e760@localhost> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Brett Glass wrote: :At 07:10 AM 11/30/2000, Jamie Bowden wrote: : :>I used OS/2's boot manager for a very long time and still would if OS/2 :>Warp would install on my current hardware, but having also bought :>Partition Magic, I have found Boot Magic to be a very good replacement. : :Do the IBM Boot Manager and Boot Magic replace the BIOS hard disk code :as OnTrack Disk Manager does? It seems to me that this is what might be :needed to get things working if the original AT BIOS can't handle the :drive. The IBM Boot Manager lives on it's own partition. You can put it at the front or back of the disk free space. Boot Magic appears to takeover the boot sector and the beginning of my Win98 partition, so you'd need a minimal dos/win partition to use it. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 18:26:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jasper.nighttide.net (jasper.nighttide.net [216.227.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE8537B400 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (darren@localhost) by jasper.nighttide.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eB12Q8300571; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:26:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from darren@nighttide.net) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:26:08 -0500 (EST) From: Darren Henderson To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: Terry Lambert , , Subject: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC In-Reply-To: <20001130172843.A28757@peorth.iteration.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Michael C . Wu wrote: > On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 11:01:44PM +0000, Terry Lambert scribbled: > | Be careful. There are two flavors of "all-region". The first > | is "region free"; this does not work with some region encoded > | DVDs. The second is "variable region"; this works with all DVDs, > | but the region switching may not be automatic; sometimes it > | requires a dipswitch change, or a "hidden" menu in the onscreen > | remote options. > > I actually bought a set from them, they are of the former type. :) It's nice having one of the region free players but one problem I've been having is finding a decent multi-system television (ie pal/ntsc/secam). Anyone know of any domestically available sets? I've noticed a few of the places selling the all region players have sets but they tend to be on the pricey side and besides, I would really like to see the picture before purchasing one. ______________________________________________________________________ Darren Henderson darren@nighttide.net Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 19:12:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2CD337B400; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:12:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA09978; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 20:08:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAzZaizt; Thu Nov 30 20:08:44 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA18343; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 20:11:55 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200012010311.UAA18343@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 03:11:19 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001130170310.049eb740@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Nov 30, 2000 05:10:40 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is getting rat-holed into another "GPL is evil" tirade... > >Only if you link against it. When was the last time you > >linked against "grep"? > > In this case, it's infectious in a different way: It is > eliminating truly free alternatives. Use it, and you are > facilitating another prong of the GPL agenda: to snuff > out other options. The fact that FreeBSD does not provide > a non-GPLed grep which is BSD-licensed means that the FSF > has succeeded. The real "grep" source code is still available; sure it means you have to assemble the parts instead of just taking FreeBSD and running, but be honest: any product based on FreeBSD, or any Open Source code, for that matter, has to be productized before it is really useful. > Also, proponents of the GPL are now opting for an expanded > requirement based on the notion of "performance for profit." > Just running the code in a situation where you made money > from it would trigger a requirement to forfeit one's work. I haven't heard this, and I have reason to doubt it: the MySQL license was this way, and they moved away from that to go with the GPL instead, which dropped the "no commercial use" restrictions, including the performance for profit restriction. > >People who needed access to a command line, and could actually > >use one, were such access granted, were not in our target > >market. > > Ah, but I'm sure that the scripts that run your GUI activate > command line utilities behind the scenes -- including, most > likely, ones like grep. You may be sure, but you're also wrong. 8-). Actually, the UI code on the InterJet is predominantly written in C++, using C++ objects as models for form, frame, table, and other objects. The work was initiated at a time when you could not write HTML code that would result in a consistant user experience across different browsers, and the library used to implement the code is called "libbif" for "Browser Independent Framework". The stuff that's not written that way is writen in C, and the major guts of the system are also in C. I rewrote the mail services subsystem and the agent database management subsystem, to use subschema entries, so mail configuration, mailing lists, users, user capabilities, account information, etc., was all based on a common data modelling system. In fact, the only things that weren't in this model were the legacy code in the system agent, the web publishing, and the scheduling agent (the system agent handled network and other system configuration settings, and was written in C by Archie, while the scheduling code was written by Larry). Even in the startup and shutdown scripts (at least two of which are shell scripts which call grep, but the majority of which are actually special purpose binary programs or wrapped versions of special purpose binary programs, with perl or sh doing the wrapping), there's no GPL infection, since calling something from a shell script is _not_ linking. Even if you were right and the rest of the world were wrong about what constitutes risk in this neighborhood, I'd like to point out an obvious fact that appears to have escaped you... IBM does not sell InterJets, any more than your local cable company sells set-top boxes: IBM sells services. Since an end user does not _buy_ an InterJet, they are not entitled to the source code, even if it was all contaminated: they are not being sold the software. Consider if you were to run a program compilation service, where people submitted code to be compiled, you compiled it with GCC, and sent the object code back to them. You charge for this service, and you've made modifications to GCC to make it more efficient: are your customers entitled to your modifications? No. They are merely _utilizing_ your service. This is the same distinction between "use" and "utilize" that GPL proponents try to obfuscate, only this time it is working against them. Likewise, I could that GCC, modify it, make a compiler that generates vastly superior code, use it to compile the stock GCC, get a compiler that compiles the same unimproved code as the stock GCC... but does so three times faster. I now sell binaries of this new compiler, and give away the source code: after all, it's nothing more than the stock GCC source code. I don't have to give away my modified compiler source code at all, any more than I have to give away the source code to the DEC/Compaq Alpha compiler when I compile GCC using it and get a faster, tighter GCC binary as a result. So much for any "performance for profit" clause which might come along later being worked around. Until and unless the entire software industry moves to the new model, _any_ new model can be worked around, within the scope of it having to be able to coexist with the current model for it to be able to get anywhere. > >There is a Ricoh photocopier and a Ricoh document capture > >device, both based on FreeBSD. I rather seriously doubt > >that they ship the code in such a state that you could get > >a command line, period. > > I'll have to check with Steve Savitzky on this. (He's a > strong open source advocate within Ricoh and may have > driven this choice.) My guess is that you can get a > command line for the purpose of servicing the machine, > perhaps via a TTY port inside the case. But that's not > the point. Even if YOU can't get the command line, > I'll bet their GUI invokes command line utilities. Doubtful. CGIs are underpowered, and scripted CGIs will always lose out, performance-wise, to compiled code. If you are right, then someone is just going to build the same product, throw out the scripting, and take their market away from them, based on higher performance on equivalent CPU cycles, or the same performance on lower cost hardware with lesser CPU cycles. Binary always beats scripts on everything but prototyping. Scripts are not a good idea for deployment, since they are fragile in the face of system upgrades and other changes which might change the underlying components implementing their functionality (e.g.: grep), and since it is almost impossible to do formal verification against a script: you'd have to verify every system comonent with which the script interacted, and then you'd have to invent a formal validation tool for sh or perl, which while not quite an NP-incomplete problem, would be close enough for the amount of time remaining before your product is obsolete. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 19:17:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F27A37B400 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:17:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA09819; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 20:16:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAkWayWs; Thu Nov 30 20:16:03 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA18494; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 20:17:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200012010317.UAA18494@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 03:16:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: ragnar@sysabend.org (Jamie Bowden), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001130173952.0495e760@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Nov 30, 2000 05:41:09 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >I used OS/2's boot manager for a very long time and still would if OS/2 > >Warp would install on my current hardware, but having also bought > >Partition Magic, I have found Boot Magic to be a very good replacement. > > Do the IBM Boot Manager and Boot Magic replace the BIOS hard disk code > as OnTrack Disk Manager does? It seems to me that this is what might be > needed to get things working if the original AT BIOS can't handle the > drive. You are speaking about the LBA emulation mode, which uses the boot sector to load a TSR that handles LBA mode by doing translation/augmentation of the requests to the disk which are normally fielded by the BIOS. The answer is "No, they do not do this". This is not relevent to the ThinkPad problem, since that's related to the BIOS not having the FreeBSD partition ID in their list of sacred partition IDs. They have the Linux partition ID in this list in recent BIOS. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 19:42:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E12D837B401 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:42:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E5D10573A9; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:42:44 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:42:44 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Darren Henderson Cc: Terry Lambert , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC Message-ID: <20001130214244.D28757@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Darren Henderson , Terry Lambert , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001130172843.A28757@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from darren@nighttide.net on Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 09:26:08PM -0500 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 09:26:08PM -0500, Darren Henderson scribbled: | It's nice having one of the region free players but one problem I've been | having is finding a decent multi-system television (ie pal/ntsc/secam). | Anyone know of any domestically available sets? I've noticed a few of the | places selling the all region players have sets but they tend to be on the | pricey side and besides, I would really like to see the picture before | purchasing one. No, Americans cannot seem to grasp that the earth does not contain onlyh America. They have to use PCS instead of GSM, "imperial" units instead of SI units, T1's instead of E1's, and so forth. 8_) /me hides from the angry mob :P (Wes: this is where you reply with a funny rebuttal :) To the point, with DVD's, you really cannot see or hear the difference unless you are a natural born/trained artist/musician. Most likely, the picture quality is limited by the television, and the audio quality limited by the receivers and speakers. The DVD player is not the bottleneck there. :) -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 19:49:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jasper.nighttide.net (jasper.nighttide.net [216.227.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBB0A37B401 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:49:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (darren@localhost) by jasper.nighttide.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eB13mj001079; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:48:51 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from darren@nighttide.net) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:48:45 -0500 (EST) From: Darren Henderson To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: Terry Lambert , , Subject: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC In-Reply-To: <20001130214244.D28757@peorth.iteration.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Michael C . Wu wrote: > On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 09:26:08PM -0500, Darren Henderson scribbled: > | It's nice having one of the region free players but one problem I've been > | having is finding a decent multi-system television (ie pal/ntsc/secam). > > To the point, with DVD's, you really cannot see or hear the difference > unless you are a natural born/trained artist/musician. Most likely, > the picture quality is limited by the television, and the audio *nod* thats what I meant, I would like to find a multi-standard television that I can look at before buying. Supposedly most sets sold in europe are multistandard. But finding out which models are and which might be available in the US via a retail outlet has been stumping me. Most of the sets I've looked at around here are manufactured in Mexico and the sales people just get a glazed look when you ask about pal. ______________________________________________________________________ Darren Henderson darren@nighttide.net Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 21:31:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C7A37B400 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:31:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21904; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:59:24 -0500 Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA08733; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 05:30:44 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 05:30:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: American / English Telco (Was: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC) In-Reply-To: <20001130214244.D28757@peorth.iteration.net> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Michael C . Wu wrote: > No, Americans cannot seem to grasp that the earth does not contain > onlyh America. They have to use PCS instead of GSM, "imperial" > units instead of SI units, T1's instead of E1's, and so forth. 8_) Hmm. I've seen GSM widely availible at all the places I would normally go to get mobile / wireless (I'm *really* tired of that term) phones. We can only get what's locally availible to us. Blame the telco cartels. Personally, I'd rather see 2.048 Mbit/s E1s as opposed to T1s; the math is easier and it's another couple of bits of bandwidth. I do not like the idea of having to bring in a PRI and get thirty DS0s as opposed to twenty-four. My point is granularity; a series of T1s expands as 24/48/72/96, whereas the E1 is 30/60/90/120. I'd like to see it broken further, in the manner of "burstable" T1s as it were: A full T1 that is sold on a per-line basis. A more affordable alterative to a full T1. Yeah, right. I've never understood why a 1.544MBit/s link (over two / four wires) *needs* to be channellized. Seems like a waste of D channels. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 21:34: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC5337B404 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:32:28 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eB15Xxs13631; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:33:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:33:59 -0800 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: Terry Lambert Cc: keichii@peorth.iteration.net, cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC Message-ID: <20001130213358.C99903@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20001130093520.F16834@peorth.iteration.net> <200011302301.QAA23749@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200011302301.QAA23749@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 11:01:44PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 11:01:44PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: [snip] > Region encoding was intended to limit the ability to pirate a > DVD in one region, and to sell the pirated DVDs in another; it > is very common in one region in particular to priate anything > that can be represented as bits (you know who you are: I have > several SPAMs from there advertising things like all MS products > on a set of CDROMs for $50.00). Regional codes is/was not actually a anti-piracy measure. It is trivial for someone who has the resources to mass produce pirated copies and sell them to another region of the world to obtain the right version for the target market. Regional codings are not an issue for the small-timer since their market is in the same region. What it actually was meant to stop was legitimate buyers from getting DVDs from other regions. Afterall, a perfectly legal DVD does not play when it is put in a player from a different region. People buying "import" versions or getting copies from another region before the local release messes with the marketing department's carefully designed schedules. For example, in many parts of the world can buy a legit DVD from the US while a movie is still playing in the theaters locally. That's the kind of thing studios really wanted to stop with regional codes. http://www.dvdbuyingguide.com/dvd-school/regioncoding.html -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 21:46:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7196037B401; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:46:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 141j45-00006A-00; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:48:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3A273BC9.871DDF66@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:48:57 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer References: <200011302316.QAA24254@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > I'd be concerned about that, too. We've studied the issue and have decided > > that to put GPLed code in the standard system would be dangerous. It does > > not appear to be a problem for optional components, so we may use GPL code > > for elective add-on products. This even drove us to use PostgreSQL rather > > than MySQL in our product, though MySQL would have been a better fit. > > The pre-GPL license on MySQL was actually incredibly _worse_ > than the GPL. > > > I must say I like pgsql a lot better. > > I keep meaning to play with this; does it support triggered > mutual replication between two hosts running the code? I It does support triggers, but I don't think it does replication. > really want fault tolerance, load balancing, and automatic > fail-over (basically, by having the load all move to one > machine instead of two [actually more complicated], so that > everyone gets degraded service, instead of some number being > denied service entirely). You might be able to do some interesting tricks with the commit code for the generational mechanism. In PostgreSQL 7, there is a finite point in time where every commit moves from a "new generation" record to being fully integrated with the main data store; this might be an excellent time to replicate the last phase of the commit across replicated servers. > I don't have triggers in the code, but I actuall have MySQL > set up for mutual replication via log replay, so that the > database and its replica stay more or less synchornized. What sort of replay interval do you use -- more or less continuously? I find MySQL to be unstable and rather toy-like compared to PG, which I've not had a single problem with yet. The enumeration types in MySQL are missed, though. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 21:56:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A6A937B400; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 141jBe-00006V-00; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:56:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3A273D9E.E7EEF499@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:56:46 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Clark Cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer References: <200011300534.VAA02857@gte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Clark wrote: > > I have some vague memory of PHK not being the type to wear t-shirts, but I > get a mental picture of him wearing a shirt that reads "If you're from IBM, > you owe me a beer.". A really nice sweater with the legend worked into the knit. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 22:48: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB24137B400; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:47:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA28748; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:44:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAEtaO63; Thu Nov 30 23:43:49 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA09204; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:47:36 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200012010647.XAA09204@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 06:47:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3A273BC9.871DDF66@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Nov 30, 2000 10:48:57 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ ... postgres doesn't support replication ... ] Too bad; it's a requirement for my application. 8-(. > > I don't have triggers in the code, but I actuall have MySQL > > set up for mutual replication via log replay, so that the > > database and its replica stay more or less synchornized. > > What sort of replay interval do you use -- more or less continuously? Yes. It will effectively check every few minutes, and replicate data not involved in an active session. An active session will, by definition, have data private from all other sessions, and it is this data that I'm interested in replicating (and only this data). If I had a trigger, I could delay the response to the client until after the trigger had notified the replicas to replicate, and they had done so (still have the problem of a downed server, though). > I find MySQL to be unstable and rather toy-like compared to PG, > which I've not had a single problem with yet. The enumeration > types in MySQL are missed, though. Other than having to become the defacto AIX port maintainer to use it on AIX and have any real chance of being able to upgrade and have the next version work, I don't really have a problem with MySQL (at least technically; I dislike its new license as much as its old, but it's tactical, not strategic, so I don't care that much). The biggest problem is new data creates, and that's handled by assigning record numbers partially based on a common space, and partially on a reserved per server space. This lets me create records without an inter-server interlock, since I know all records created in one server will be prefixed with one 8-bit value, and all records in the second server will have a different 8-bit value. Obviously, these values are externally configured, rather than being in the database. 8-) 8-). The delete replication problem is more ugly; if I get a server that is not the same as my previous server, and I deleted on a previous server, then when I iterate "my" records, I will see deleted records "reappear" until the delete is replicated. This problem also exists to a lesser extent in other data change operations. Creates are really not a problem, since connecting to server B, after a create on server A, before replication to B, means that the unreplicated data object is still "on its way" to server B. Since I have a data object propagation delay from external store and forward processing to get into A in the first place, I can treat the data as "on its way" with no ill effects. The round-trip from a client back to the same client also has a latency, so even if a client sends a data object to itself, a delay in propagation to the "slave" (all servers not getting the data first are effectively "slaves") just looks like normal latency. I can maintain "synchronized/unsynchronized" state in an external directory (I have an LDAP directory specifically for this type of state information), but I have to modify LDAP replication to have an "active listener list" off the master for this to be efficient (the interval is like the TTL on an SOA update on a DNS sever with notifications turned on, when using a stealth primary, and doing DNSUPDAT against the primary, but reading from the secondary; I basically have to implement "notifications" for LDAP). With this information in hand, I could support an "unsynchronized" DN that I would use, if present, to bind to the up to date server, instead of attempting to load-balance. I'm at a loss as to what to do about the case of a delete-unsynchronized-crash, since it means that I can't use the replica until its synchronized. I have the same problem with new data on the way in, since I want to write it to the "most current" server (obviously), so I would have to seperately queue that data until it could be delivered (ugh). I would also be introducing a single point of failure, since like DNS, the relationship between LDAP replicas is also "master/slaves", so if the master goes down, an attempt to change data in a slave would result in a referral to the master, and the master is down. I _could_ define all unprocessable updates as "in progress", but then the "most recent" state tracking becomes queued, as well, so I couldn't permit deletes/changes until after propagation. Getting sick yet? 8-) 8-| 8-( 8-P 8-O... Anyway, it's an interesting problem. Not storing volatile state in the directory, I'm currently sitting at a single point of failure only on the servers which serve the data, since I have to marry the client to a particular server, and keep a hot spare standing by on the otherside of a dual ported RAID array (ugly, but it works; I supose I could use AFS, as well, but CODA doesn't cut it, and neither does NFS). Hope you're having as much fun in your project. }B-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 30 23:17: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spitfire.velocet.net (spitfire.velocet.net [209.167.225.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A44F337B400 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 2000 23:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from david.thecafe.ca (H179.C192.tor.velocet.net [216.138.192.179]) by spitfire.velocet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 5079119A13A for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 02:17:04 -0500 (EST) From: David Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 02:17:34 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Netscape-Linux Amazment MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00120102173400.20032@david.thecafe.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just thought I would sent this out as a conversation piece. I'am running Linux-Netscape-Navigator 4.76 from ports, on 4-STABLE and after reading this article at LinuxWorld: http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-11/lw-11-netscape6.html I thought I would have a look at Navigator's memory usage. Here's a ps output: Script started on Fri Dec 1 01:52:28 2000 bash-2.04$ ps -aux | grep p 762 ddavid 762 0.0 32.7 131040 127596 ?? S 9:37PM 3:45.66 /usr/local/lib/netscape First I'm actually surprised it's been running this long, almost 4hr's with out crashing on me, but when i had a look at the memory usage, like a 128M!!! I'm totally blown away by the amount of memory Netscape is sucking away for itself. Has anyone else ever seen such a thing while using Netscape? I for one do not ever recall such an outrages use of memory from any program I have run. Anyways, like I said this just blew me away, and I thought I would share my amazement with you all. Cheers David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 1 2:14:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E252937B401 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 02:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F219E161; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:14:22 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:27:37 +0100 To: Darren Henderson , "Michael C . Wu" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC Cc: Terry Lambert , , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:26 PM -0500 2000/11/30, Darren Henderson wrote: > It's nice having one of the region free players but one problem I've been > having is finding a decent multi-system television (ie pal/ntsc/secam). They've got them over here in Europe. I don't know if you'll be able to find them anywhere else. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 1 2:14:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0D1937B401; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 02:14:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1911DDEB; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:14:31 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200012010311.UAA18343@usr09.primenet.com> References: <200012010311.UAA18343@usr09.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:37:13 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:11 AM +0000 2000/12/1, Terry Lambert wrote: > IBM does not sell InterJets, any more than your local cable > company sells set-top boxes: IBM sells services. Since an > end user does not _buy_ an InterJet, they are not entitled to > the source code, even if it was all contaminated: they are > not being sold the software. Right. This is one of the key reasons why I never considered getting an InterJet. If someone *sold* a BSD-based device that is otherwise identical to this, I would have bought one in a nanosecond, but I don't want to buy a Linux-based Qube, nor do I want to shackle myself forever to a service provider. Everyone is getting into the "give away a piece of hardware that does something that used to be free and sell the services" business model, but not everyone is buying it. I'm not going to pay TiVo $$$ per month to take an electronic TV schedule (the contents of which are printed for "free" in newspapers and magazines around the world) and then have a computer digitally record the stuff I want to watch. If someone wants to *sell* me the box that does this via other services that are already available (via broadcast during the vertical blanking interval on PBS stations, etc...), I'll be more than happy to spend lots of extra money to get that, but I simply refuse to shackle myself to buying a set of services for the rest of my life. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 1 2:14:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80AEF37B401 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 02:14:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54BA1DAB9; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:14:39 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20001130214244.D28757@peorth.iteration.net> References: <20001130172843.A28757@peorth.iteration.net> <20001130214244.D28757@peorth.iteration.net> Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:41:59 +0100 To: "Michael C . Wu" , Darren Henderson From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: DVD Players, and Not in a PC Cc: Terry Lambert , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:42 PM -0600 2000/11/30, Michael C . Wu wrote: > No, Americans cannot seem to grasp that the earth does not contain > onlyh America. They have to use PCS instead of GSM, "imperial" > units instead of SI units, T1's instead of E1's, and so forth. 8_) Granted, there is a lot of stupidity that Americans come up with, but take for example all these 3G mobile communications services that everyone around the world is so hot-n-bothered about spending billions upon billions of dollars to build, so that they can start charging for these services in ten years. Note that all of the 3G services are based on Wideband Code Division Multiplexing (e.g., W-CDMA), which is a technology invented by Qualcomm, which is a US company. The somewhat older CDMA technology is widely recognized as being far technically superior to the older TDMA technology, and allows carriers to squeeze a lot more customers in per frequency and per cell, yet most of the existing digital services around the world (including GSM) are still based on TDMA. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 1 2:45:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B3A537B400 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 02:45:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id eB1Aj6H22055 ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:45:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA65956 ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:45:09 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:45:09 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Message-ID: <20001201114509.B61418@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001129121021.049b31b0@localhost> <200011300548.WAA05850@usr08.primenet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001130170310.049eb740@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001130170310.049eb740@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:10:40PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Note: -advocacy removed from recipient list Brett Glass said on Nov 30, 2000 at 17:10:40: > > Also, proponents of the GPL are now opting for an expanded > requirement based on the notion of "performance for profit." > Just running the code in a situation where you made money > from it would trigger a requirement to forfeit one's work. Typical Brett bullshit. What some proponents of GPL are suggesting is that the GPL should cover ASP's -- people who don't distribute the code itself in either source or binary form, but set it up on their server and allow other people should use it via the web. Personally it looks like a bad idea to me, and hard to enforce, but it's quite different from a generic "situation where you made money from it". There's a sort of preview of GPL v3 at http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/01/1636202 which largely agrees with what Stallman seems to be saying in other places too. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 1 3:56:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5609B37B400; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 03:56:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA14188; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 04:53:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAinaiSB; Fri Dec 1 04:52:55 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA22945; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 04:56:08 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200012011156.EAA22945@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer To: blk@skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:55:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Dec 01, 2000 10:37:13 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > IBM does not sell InterJets, any more than your local cable > > company sells set-top boxes: IBM sells services. Since an > > end user does not _buy_ an InterJet, they are not entitled to > > the source code, even if it was all contaminated: they are > > not being sold the software. > > Right. This is one of the key reasons why I never considered > getting an InterJet. If someone *sold* a BSD-based device that is > otherwise identical to this, I would have bought one in a nanosecond, > but I don't want to buy a Linux-based Qube, nor do I want to shackle > myself forever to a service provider. Whistle sold InterJets; you could have bought one then. There is even an aftermarket for setting a root password, adding more disk, adding more RAM, and adding additional connectivity options, like a faster modem (if you have the old box). As far as the Cobalt stuff goes, NetBSD runs on the x86 RAQ and Qube things, so getting FreeBSD going would probably be trivial, if someone hasn't done it already. > Everyone is getting into the "give away a piece of hardware that > does something that used to be free and sell the services" business > model, but not everyone is buying it. FWIW: I agree that this model is fundamentally flawed; I think the current dearth of funding for the ASP boondoggle and the crashes left and right of the companies trying this model are good indicators that it's not a long-term win. That said, it's my opinion that IBM could sell InterJets with little risk, if they wanted to (you can buy a Cobalt box through REQCAT, the IBM internal purchasing facility, but not an InterJet). IMO, there are other revenue models that _will_ work; I have an outsourced service I've been working on, and I've identified 7 revenue models, only 3 of which are traditional, and only 1 of which smacks of an ASP (I'm willing to commit to trying it, even knowing in my heart that it'll fail, to get V.C. buy-in, after which I'll convert to one or more of the others before letting the mandate burn enough capitol to hurt me, since I know at least two of them are killer models for that type of service; I would find this route disingenuous enough that it'd be very distasteful for me. I rather think I can find a V.C. with brains or at least a healthy fear of ASP models these days, anyway). > I'm not going to pay TiVo $$$ per month to take an electronic TV > schedule (the contents of which are printed for "free" in newspapers > and magazines around the world) and then have a computer digitally > record the stuff I want to watch. This is my problem with the so-called "Internet appliances" that make you sign up for service from a particular provider, and then deeply "discount" the hardware -- actually not giving a discount at all, but instead amortizing the cost over the service contract lifetime. The companies that are selling these things, and then bitching about people hacking them (because people want cool hardware, and are willing to pay to play with it, if they are early adopters) are missing the whole point. I'll state this as fact: It's the applications that your customers apply your product to _in spite of you_ that will be "_the killer app_" for your product, not all of the nice little corrals you've assembled in your stockyard to guide them into your preferred revenue pens. Or to make it short... sell what people want to buy, _not_ what you want to sell. Or a little longer.. to _hell_ with what you intended for your product, if your customer wants to use your nifty multifunction wrench as a hammer, then you should probably make a decision as to the relative size of the multifunction wrench and hammer markets. Once you do that, you get to decide whether you want to sell both hammers and multifunction wrenches, add a hammer head to the end of your multifunction wrench, or say "to hell with it! I'm a hammer manufacturer! Print up new business cards!". > If someone wants to *sell* me the box that does this via other > services that are already available (via broadcast during the > vertical blanking interval on PBS stations, etc...), I'll be more > than happy to spend lots of extra money to get that, but I simply > refuse to shackle myself to buying a set of services for the rest of > my life. Broadcasting the information you need, or offering it for free through any internet connection that they already have would turn the box into both a high demand item and a commodity over night. I tend to think that broadcast would be more viable (less moving parts to hook together the hard way), but you'd have to lose a lot of your window through the standardization needed to get the buy-in. Your margins would go from 30-40%, down to 6%, as other people built boxes to use the same info. You might be able to get away with this if the lifecycle of the product was guaranteed to be 3 years or less, by offering the service part toll free. Actually, I think the timing window on this will open in 2002, given the conversion schedule for digital broadcast (at least in the U.S.). If you could get the local broadcaster to provide the programming data as part of their signal, then 6% is OK, if you expect a lifetime of 3 years or more, since it all averages out. You'll just have to content yourself with being a Walmart instead of a Woolworth's (yeah, hard decision, that). If you could build brand, then you could probably charge a premium for being a premium product, in peoples minds, whether or not in reality. Put another way: do you see a lot of VCR+ codes being published in your local television guides, or the hardware for it out there? How successful was DIVX? Pushing standards is not cheap, and tends to benefit your competition as much as you, unless you are prepared to execute on a dime; most sane standards are only tactical. Attempts to make standards into something strategic is usually not sane, unless you already have a monopoly. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 1 4:19:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD32637B400 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 04:19:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA19715; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 05:16:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAilayFM; Fri Dec 1 05:16:03 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA23538; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 05:19:16 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200012011219.FAA23538@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:19:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001201114509.B61418@lpt.ens.fr> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Dec 01, 2000 11:45:09 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Also, proponents of the GPL are now opting for an expanded > > requirement based on the notion of "performance for profit." > > Just running the code in a situation where you made money > > from it would trigger a requirement to forfeit one's work. > > Typical Brett bullshit. What some proponents of GPL are suggesting > is that the GPL should cover ASP's -- people who don't distribute > the code itself in either source or binary form, but set it up on > their server and allow other people should use it via the web. > Personally it looks like a bad idea to me, and hard to enforce, but > it's quite different from a generic "situation where you made money > from it". Actually, the ASP scenario was exactly how I'd interpreted Brett's phrase "performance for profit". I just don't think the model for doing that is going to be successful. I'll agree that Brett ratholed into an adjacent topic, though. > There's a sort of preview of GPL v3 at > http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/01/1636202 > which largely agrees with what Stallman seems to be saying in other > places too. Stallman also specifically references the term "performance". His concern is to get people who would not otherwise use the GPL, to use the GPL. The main thrust of his point is scripting languages, but it appears to me to be "the camel's nose", since he doesn't limit the performance to scripting languages. He presumes that the payback of having access to modified (he seems to assume tha this equals "improved", rather than "trade dress") is enough to pay back the original company for releasing the code that is not currently being released, under the GPL. He may have a point on scripts. Scripts are generally in the category "throw away code" (the same place I choose to put "fetchmail"), and so cost relatively little to create. If the creation cost is very low, then the amount one needs to benefit from the code in order to amortize developement costs is also very low, and so it could be that the value they get back would easily exceed the value they lose by releasing the code. If he ties in performance in a general sense, though, he will poison-pill the code: code that elects the license (even if the clause is at the authors discretion) will prevent legal use of GPL'ed code that must be "performed" in binary, by linking against OS libraries, since the requirement becomes providing all necessary code, as source, that is needed to repeat the performance. His ideology may eventually win (IMO, to the detriment of us all), but I don't think that he is going to be able to force the issue this way; it is more likely he will slit his own throat with the attempt. Of course, this was always a danger of the "or later version of the license". I also see it as being problematic for things like Linux, which unlike the FSF tools, accept contributions without having to have the rights granted to a single legal entity. The problem with that has always been that any author could claim version differences for their code contributed to the project. Having a trap-door clause that lets any author do the same with a performance clause will, I predict, open a can of worms that could kill the GPL for good. Increasing the amount of throw away code sitting in FTP archives, being indexed by search engines, can't really be good for anyone, though... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 1 4:31:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B667D37B400; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 04:31:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id C664CDCBE; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:31:21 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200012011156.EAA22945@usr01.primenet.com> References: <200012011156.EAA22945@usr01.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:31:17 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:55 AM +0000 2000/12/1, Terry Lambert wrote: > Whistle sold InterJets; you could have bought one then. Sadly, I didn't find out about them until the announcement that IBM was buying the company, and didn't think that the business model would be changing, so I didn't race around trying to scrape up the cash to buy one on the spur of the moment. > As far as the Cobalt stuff goes, NetBSD runs on the x86 RAQ and > Qube things, so getting FreeBSD going would probably be trivial, > if someone hasn't done it already. I'd be interested in hearing more about this, if anyone has any information. > Put another way: do you see a lot of VCR+ codes being published > in your local television guides, or the hardware for it out > there? I'm not in the US anymore, so I can't say whether VCR+ still has any penetration. I know that, as of the time I left (a couple of years ago), they were still in wide use, and had been for a number of years. IIRC, virtually all VCRs sold had this feature. > How successful was DIVX? Thankfully, it died very quickly. However, because of it, I will never again buy anything at Circuit City. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 1 4:40:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB5637B400; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 04:40:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA45367; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 07:40:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 07:40:29 -0500 From: Michael Lucas To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Message-ID: <20001201074029.A45298@blackhelicopters.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001129121021.049b31b0@localhost> <200011300548.WAA05850@usr08.primenet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001130170310.049eb740@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001130170310.049eb740@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:10:40PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 05:10:40PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > >Only if you link against it. When was the last time you > >linked against "grep"? > In this case, it's infectious in a different way: It is > eliminating truly free alternatives. Use it, and you are > facilitating another prong of the GPL agenda: to snuff > out other options. The fact that FreeBSD does not provide > a non-GPLed grep which is BSD-licensed means that the FSF > has succeeded. /usr/ports/text/freegrep Not up to speed yet, but I bet the author would love patches. -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 1 4:45:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0933C37B400 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 04:45:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id eB1CjRH33787 ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:45:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA70915 ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:45:31 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:45:31 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Message-ID: <20001201134530.H61418@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001201114509.B61418@lpt.ens.fr> <200012011219.FAA23538@usr01.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012011219.FAA23538@usr01.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 12:19:16PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Dec 1, 2000 at 12:19:16: > His ideology may eventually win (IMO, to the detriment of us > all), but I don't think that he is going to be able to force > the issue this way; it is more likely he will slit his own > throat with the attempt. Of course, this was always a > danger of the "or later version of the license". As I said, I think this ASP clause is a bad idea. But I also think ASPs are a bad idea and clueful people will prefer running well-maintained code on their own systems. I don't even think the usual arguments for freeing the code (fixing your own bugs, etc, as in RMS's old story of the printer with the closed-source driver) work for freeing ASP code. What will you do after you fix the bugs: set up your own ASP server? If you can do that you didn't need to use an ASP in the first place. But the "or later version" is an option only, and code which is now distributed under GPL2 can be distributed under GPL2 for all time. Moreover, the author can choose not to allow that option. I seem to remember Linus removing the "or later version" clause for the linux kernel recently, though I may be wrong. > I also see it as being problematic for things like Linux, > which unlike the FSF tools, accept contributions without > having to have the rights granted to a single legal > entity. The problem with that has always been that any > author could claim version differences for their code > contributed to the project. In the linux case, Linus could always refuse to accept patches not contributed under GPL v2. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 1 7:26:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4814437B400 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 07:26:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from win95 - 63.59.142.137 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 07:26:48 -0800 Message-ID: <000801c05ba2$f102dc60$898e3b3f@win95> From: "LRM1955" To: Subject: Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:28:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C05B79.0699FF60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C05B79.0699FF60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would like to subscribe Julie McNally ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C05B79.0699FF60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would like to subscribe
Julie = McNally
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C05B79.0699FF60-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 1 10: 6:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.smed.com (smtp.smed.com [12.20.51.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D3437B401; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:06:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpgate.shrmed.com (keymaster.smed.com [12.20.51.2]) by smtp.smed.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87E7E161EA; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:06:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from iesa14.shrmed.com (iesa14.shrmed.com [10.1.99.114]) by smtpgate.shrmed.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17942; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:06:38 -0500 From: Joe.Warner@smed.com Received: from Deimos.smed.com (unverified) by iesa14.shrmed.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with SMTP id ; Fri, 01 Dec 2000 13:06:19 -0500 Received: by Deimos.smed.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id 852569A8.0063452D ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:04:17 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SMS To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Message-Id: <852569A8.0063408D.00@Deimos.smed.com> Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:06:46 -0700 Subject: Searching The Skies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Check out this story, titled "Searching The Skies" at the bottom of the page: Since this is taking place at Berkeley, I wonder what "PCs" Mr. Loen is referring to and which OS their running on.? Cheers Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 1 10:40:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.smed.com (smtp.smed.com [12.20.51.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BDB837B402; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:40:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpgate.shrmed.com (keymaster.smed.com [12.20.51.2]) by smtp.smed.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76DAA1621B; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:40:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from iesa14.shrmed.com (iesa14.shrmed.com [10.1.99.114]) by smtpgate.shrmed.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22338; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:40:25 -0500 From: Joe.Warner@smed.com Received: from Deimos.smed.com (unverified) by iesa14.shrmed.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with SMTP id ; Fri, 01 Dec 2000 13:40:20 -0500 Received: by Deimos.smed.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id 852569A8.00666260 ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:38:18 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SMS To: Libby Charles-CCL044 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" Message-Id: <852569A8.006660B3.00@Deimos.smed.com> Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:40:54 -0700 Subject: RE: Searching The Skies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Interesting... Also, my apologies for my previous failure at spelling..."their" should have been "they're". Joe |--------+------------------------------> | | Libby Charles-CCL044| | | | | | | | | 12/01/00 11:30 AM | | | | |--------+------------------------------> >---------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: Joe Warner/SMS@SMS, | | "',freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG'" <>, | | freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG | | cc: "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" | | | | Subject: RE: Searching The Skies | >---------------------------------------------------------| The Setiathome is running only on M$ machines. There is no Apple or Linux or FreeBSD version of the program. Do a search on Yahoo for "Setiathome" there are some interesting links. Charles Check out this story, titled "Searching The Skies" at the bottom of the page: Since this is taking place at Berkeley, I wonder what "PCs" Mr. Loen is referring to and which OS their running on.? Cheers Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 1 10:52: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.neteze.com (agora.neteze.com [206.14.108.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F97137B400; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:52:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from fenris ([207.136.167.5]) by agora.neteze.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-62409U9000L900S0V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:52:52 -0800 Message-ID: <000701c05bc8$5fa5ebb0$15fea8c0@fenris> Reply-To: "Ben Gordon" From: "Ben Gordon" To: Cc: References: <1FA6C7249817D4119B9800D0B73E99A6020B8CDE@il02exm27.comm.mot.com> Subject: Re: Searching The Skies Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:56:11 -0800 Organization: Ben Gordon, PC Consultant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes, the clients for Linux, FreeBSD, etc can be found at http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/download.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Libby Charles-CCL044" To: ; <',freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG'>; Cc: Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 10:30 AM Subject: RE: Searching The Skies > The Setiathome is running only on M$ machines. There is no Apple or Linux or FreeBSD version of the program. Do a search on Yahoo for "Setiathome" there are some interesting links. > > Charles > > Check out this story, titled "Searching The Skies" > at the bottom of the page: > > > > Since this is taking place at Berkeley, I wonder > what "PCs" Mr. Loen is referring to and which > OS their running on.? > > Cheers > > Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 1 11:14:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DBEA37B400 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:14:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA11359; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:14:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:28:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer In-Reply-To: <200011302316.QAA24254@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > I keep meaning to play with this; does it support triggered > mutual replication between two hosts running the code? I > really want fault tolerance, load balancing, and automatic > fail-over (basically, by having the load all move to one > machine instead of two [actually more complicated], so that > everyone gets degraded service, instead of some number being > denied service entirely). Marc Fournier is both a FreeBSD guy and a Postgres guy. I think he may be a developer for both. I have seen him active on lists for both projects. I will take my lame newbie SQL shot at an answer. Postgres supports triggers and transactions. I presume one could use these to keep two seperate databases in synch. I don't know much more about it than these functionalities exist. Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 1 12:50:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55CB837B400 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:50:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26086 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:50:44 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001201134950.048a3340@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 13:50:39 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Kingman: BSD to leapfrog Linux? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2659085,00.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 1 22:35:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE1337B400 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 22:35:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01417; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 23:34:50 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001201190548.044fa3b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 19:22:17 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200012011219.FAA23538@usr01.primenet.com> References: <20001201114509.B61418@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:19 AM 12/1/2000, Terry Lambert wrote: >Actually, the ASP scenario was exactly how I'd interpreted >Brett's phrase "performance for profit". I just don't think >the model for doing that is going to be successful. The phrase isn't mine. It's a standard part of music copyright law, and Perens was the first to suggest that GPL activists attempt to apply it to software. >I'll agree that Brett ratholed into an adjacent topic, though. I don't think it was "ratholing" at all. IBM's behavior is important, and as you have already mentioned, it is influenced by concerns about the GPL. >His concern is to get people who would not otherwise use the >GPL, to use the GPL. And then to "trap" companies with it. Stallman specifically advocates this in his essay "Why Software Should Not Have Owners" -- an essay which, by the way, he hastily toned down a few days after I pointed out his original exhortation to programmers to sabotage their organizations. >The main thrust of his point is scripting languages, but it >appears to me to be "the camel's nose", since he doesn't >limit the performance to scripting languages. He presumes >that the payback of having access to modified (he seems to >assume tha this equals "improved", rather than "trade dress") >is enough to pay back the original company for releasing the >code that is not currently being released, under the GPL. > >He may have a point on scripts. Scripts are generally in >the category "throw away code" (the same place I choose to >put "fetchmail"), and so cost relatively little to create. >If the creation cost is very low, then the amount one needs >to benefit from the code in order to amortize developement >costs is also very low, and so it could be that the value >they get back would easily exceed the value they lose by >releasing the code. The problem is that some programs written in "scripting languages" are not throw-aways at all. Many companies who add value to arcane systems by providing them with user- friendly GUIs (of which Whistle was one!) do it via these languages. I've worked for companies whose entire base of IP (and expertise!) was embodied in Perl scripts. >If he ties in performance in a general sense, though, he will >poison-pill the code: code that elects the license (even if >the clause is at the authors discretion) will prevent legal >use of GPL'ed code that must be "performed" in binary, by >linking against OS libraries, since the requirement becomes >providing all necessary code, as source, that is needed to >repeat the performance. It could be worse than that. Since FreeBSD is compiled by GCC, he could set things up so that that any binary of FreeBSD that's compiled by a GPL3ed version of GCC is considered to be a "performance" of a GPLed program, with all of the effects that this might entail. He has a strong incentive to do this, since it would throw alternatives to Linux -- including BeOS! -- into turmoil. I personally believe that Stallman, Perens, and others WILL attempt to close this noose; it's just a matter of WHEN they'll do it. >His ideology may eventually win (IMO, to the detriment of us >all), but I don't think that he is going to be able to force >the issue this way; it is more likely he will slit his own >throat with the attempt. Of course, this was always a >danger of the "or later version of the license". What's more, all GNU utilities will immediately go to the new license. This poses a big danger for FreeBSD, because it tracks these utilities. Unless it freezes these utilities at the last version that was released under the previous license, and reimplements everything fast, it will immediately be "infected" by the new requirements in a detrimental way. >I also see it as being problematic for things like Linux, >which unlike the FSF tools, accept contributions without >having to have the rights granted to a single legal >entity. The problem with that has always been that any >author could claim version differences for their code >contributed to the project. Having a trap-door clause >that lets any author do the same with a performance >clause will, I predict, open a can of worms that could >kill the GPL for good. In theory, yes. But in practice, the FSF will own so much code that's vital to projects such as FreeBSD that, protest as they will, they'll be between a rock and a hard place. I believe that by adopting any GPLed code at all, FreeBSD is painting itself into a corner. YMMV, of course. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 1 22:35:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A92837B400 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 22:35:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01426; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 23:35:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001201190318.044f4a60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 20:06:51 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Here is what IBM thinks about using FreeBSD on their newer Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001201114509.B61418@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001130170310.049eb740@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001129121021.049b31b0@localhost> <200011300548.WAA05850@usr08.primenet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001130170310.049eb740@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:45 AM 12/1/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Brett Glass said on Nov 30, 2000 at 17:10:40: >> >> Also, proponents of the GPL are now opting for an expanded >> requirement based on the notion of "performance for profit." >> Just running the code in a situation where you made money >> from it would trigger a requirement to forfeit one's work. > >Typical Brett bullshit. What some proponents of GPL are suggesting >is that the GPL should cover ASP's -- people who don't distribute >the code itself in either source or binary form, but set it up on >their server and allow other people should use it via the web. This is not the only situation they want it to cover. See the text of Bruce Perens' speech at the February 2000 LinuxWorld. Like Stallman, he explicitly states a desire to use the GPL as a "lever" to force as many people and companies as possible to forfeit their work. This goes MUCH farther than ASPs. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 2 18: 2:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay4.inwind.it (unknown [212.141.53.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5853737B400 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 2000 18:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from bartequi.ottodomain.org (62.98.154.17) by relay4.inwind.it (5.1.046) id 3A1269530020C5CE; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 03:01:48 +0100 From: Salvo Bartolotta Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 02:03:03 GMT Message-ID: <20001203.2030300@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Subject: Re: Tyr'd with all this pronunciation thread To: Cliff Sarginson , Peter Lai , "'Y u r i '" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <9F36E367710D474E9806AA393FE737FB019EEF@resnetnt.resnet.uconn.edu> <20001202120629.A1360@buffy.local> <00120212230600.01687@buffy> X-Mailer: SuperCalifragilis X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ok, it's Sunday, let's lower our signal-to-noise ratio...] [I CC to -chat in order to avoid being charged with spamming :-) ] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 12/2/00, 12:23:06 PM, Cliff Sarginson wrote regarding Re: Tyr'd with all this pronunciation thread: > > Auf wiederhoren.. ^ ^ ^ Missing umlaut... And just to add to this, cf umlaut and ablaut... > > Cliff > > > > On Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 05:06:02AM -0500, Peter Lai wrote: > > > i'd have to agree > > > > > > English is classified as a Germanic languague because that is what= the > > > core is written in :) Actually, in an Indo-European linguistic perspective, English is a Western Germanic language. The Germanic branch itself, in turn, belongs to the Western Indo-European group, ie the one including eg Latin and, to a lesser extent, Greek. BTW, a number of "Germanic" (ie Gemeingermanisch) words related to the environment at large (eg "sea") are not of Indo-European origin. > > > Then people added more and more words from other languages that we= re > > > ported over to English. :) The whole story is rather complex. For instance, over time, the "Germanic peoples" themselves influenced one another in a rather complicated fashion (cf Gothic, Elbgermanisch, Nordseegermanisch...; also, from a general standpoint, cf "Vorgermanisch", "Gemaingermanish", "Urgermanisch", "Fruehurgermanisch", "Spaetgemeingermanisch); those interrelations have been (partly) reconstructed. > > > Syntatical structure is quite unique, based on the Latin system. Hmmm, the following considerations spring to mind: --) Indo-european is (most probably) an inflected (lato sensu) paratactic SOV "language"; --) "Gemaingermanish" is (most probably) an inflected (lato sensu) paratactic SOV "language"; [...] --) Archaic Latin is an inflected (lato sensu) paratactic SOV language, too; "classical" Latin is an inflected **hypotactic** SOV language (remember the dreaded "consecutio temporum" ?). --) English has been moving towards a positional ("isolating") structure, and is not a very hypotactic language. Incidentally, in a typological respect, the so-called reconstructed "Indo-European", which had a relatively more complex case system (namely, 8 cases) if compared to its branches, is not considered a "highly-inflected" language. Other languages have **far** richer case systems. An authoritative description of the English language is found in "A Contemporary Grammar Of The English Language" by Quirk, Greenbaum, Leech, Svartvik, published in 1985 by Longman (~ 1,800 pages). Best regards, Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message