From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 17 15:20:43 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 15:20:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8836237B402 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:20:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from foo.osd.bsdi.com (root@foo.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.137]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eBHNJfE86842; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:19:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@foo.osd.bsdi.com) Received: (from jhb@localhost) by foo.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.0) id eBHNIlW74584; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:18:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:18:47 -0800 (PST) Organization: BSD, Inc. From: John Baldwin To: "Daniel O'Connor" Subject: Re: Coding style (was Re: cvs commit: [...] pci.c [...]) Cc: Greg Lehey , Warner Losh , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Nate Williams Sender: jhb@foo.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17-Dec-00 Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On 16-Dec-00 Nate Williams wrote: >> My printer limits me to 80-chars/line. That's typical for every common >> printer I've used unless you do some special processing of them. (Big >> workgroup line-printers allow longer lines, but I don't know many people >> who own one of those. :) > > Buy a bubble jet printer, install apsfilter and use a2ps to generate nice > listings... Umm, a2ps still turns out 80 columns, IIRC. And if you use something better (c2ps) with 2-up or 4-up, which does syntax formatting and other nifty stuff, _it_ wraps at 80 columns. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.Baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 17 16: 1:43 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 16:01:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C5837B400; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 16:01:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eBI00oE87737; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 16:00:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20001217173646.I54486@holly.calldei.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 16:01:15 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Chris Costello Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT mailsend.c Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17-Dec-00 Chris Costello wrote: > On Sunday, December 17, 2000, John Baldwin wrote: >> That's not a very accurate commit log. That code was quite conformant. :-P > > No; it very clearly used non-eight space indents. It matched the existing style in the file. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 17 17:11: 5 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 17:11:03 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F4137B400; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:11:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24149; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:40:48 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:40:47 +1030 (CST) Sender: doconnor@gsoft.com.au From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: John Baldwin Subject: Re: Coding style (was Re: cvs commit: [...] pci.c [...]) Cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Warner Losh , Greg Lehey Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17-Dec-00 John Baldwin wrote: > > Buy a bubble jet printer, install apsfilter and use a2ps to generate nice > > listings... > Umm, a2ps still turns out 80 columns, IIRC. And if you use something better > (c2ps) with 2-up or 4-up, which does syntax formatting and other nifty stuff, > _it_ wraps at 80 columns. Well a2ps has --columns but on further investigation they don't seem to work --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 17 18:19:50 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 18:19:48 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D4737B400; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 18:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from holly.dyndns.org ([208.191.149.190]) by mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G5Q00DB2RJXUU@mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net>; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:14:21 -0600 (CST) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA57521; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:15:09 -0600 (CST envelope-from chris) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:15:09 -0600 From: Chris Costello Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT mailsend.c In-reply-to: To: John Baldwin Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Message-id: <20001217201509.L54486@holly.calldei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i References: <20001217173646.I54486@holly.calldei.com> Sender: chris@holly.dyndns.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, December 17, 2000, John Baldwin wrote: > > No; it very clearly used non-eight space indents. > > It matched the existing style in the file. I would say that the code removed does not meet the guidelines for programming style set forth in style(9). Seems clear to me. -- +-------------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | Chris Costello | QUASIMOTO - 4 wheeled hard-top moped made in France. | | chris@calldei.com | | +-------------------+------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 18 12:23:12 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 12:23:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [207.154.226.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4C337B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1098) id D63EC2B233; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:23:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:23:08 -0600 From: Bill Fumerola To: John Polstra Cc: chat@freebsd.org, roman@harmonic.co.il Subject: Re: Tagged after release? Message-ID: <20001218142308.G72273@elvis.mu.org> Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org References: <200012181725.eBIHP4D65882@vashon.polstra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012181725.eBIHP4D65882@vashon.polstra.com>; from jdp@polstra.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 09:25:04AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-FEARSOME-20001103 i386 Sender: billf@elvis.mu.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ redirected to -chat from -stable ] On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 09:25:04AM -0800, John Polstra wrote: > It is a file that our compiler maintainer finds useful as a tool for > upgrading to newer versions of the compiler. I (wearing my yellow > polka-dot FreeBSD CVS Administrator cap) put it into the repository. Is that the cap you use for adding files? I've seen the "cap" that you use for deleteing them: http://people.freebsd.org/~billf/freebsdcon/thursday/DSC00055.JPG.html :-> -- Bill Fumerola - security yahoo / Yahoo! inc. - fumerola@yahoo-inc.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 18 12:33: 1 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 12:32:56 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from milquetoast.cs.mcgill.ca (milquetoast.CS.McGill.CA [132.206.2.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D86337B69E for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mat@localhost) by milquetoast.cs.mcgill.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA01639; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:28:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:28:27 -0500 From: Mathew KANNER To: Matthew Seaman Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Andrew Reilly , Patryk Zadarnowski , Tony Finch , SteveB , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type Message-ID: <20001218152826.E26902@cs.mcgill.ca> References: <6134.977051878@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3DDFE9.5AD693B6@inpharmatica.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: Matthew Seaman's message [Re: kernel type] as of Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 09:59:05AM +0000 Organization: SOCS, McGill University, Montreal, CANADA Sender: mat@milquetoast.cs.mcgill.ca Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Dec 18, Matthew Seaman wrote: > Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > > [...] > > [...] > > As I remember, way back in the mists of 1990 when I first encountered a NeXT > box, one of the principal reasons for selecting the Mach 2.x micro kernel was > "mach messaging". This was a unified mechanism for almost all IPC both within > one host or distributed over a network, where eg. sockets (netork or unix > domain), pipes etc. were seen as abstractions of the core messaging function. > This fitted very well with the general OO design philosophy of the company. > If anyone has access to a copy of the socket(2) man page from any NeXTSTEP > version, I dimly remember there being an informative paragraph about this > point. I just took a peek at NeXTSTEP 3.2 and the text of the socket(2) man page is almost identical to that of FreeBSD 4.2. The only difference that I could see is that we support more domain types. I'm sure it's old news to you guys I think it's neat that we share history like that (they even have the "tune a fish" joke). --Mat -- Mathew Kanner SOCS McGill University Obtuse quote: He [not me] understands: "This field of perception is void of perception of man." -- The Quintessence of Buddhism To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 18 19: 0:24 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 19:00:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mobile.wemm.org (c1315225-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com [65.0.135.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7703537B402; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:00:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from netplex.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mobile.wemm.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBIN7SL60450; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:07:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Message-Id: <200012182307.eBIN7SL60450@mobile.wemm.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: John Baldwin Cc: Chris Costello , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT mailsend.c In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:07:28 -0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin wrote: > > On 17-Dec-00 Chris Costello wrote: > > On Sunday, December 17, 2000, John Baldwin wrote: > >> That's not a very accurate commit log. That code was quite conformant. :- P > > > > No; it very clearly used non-eight space indents. > > It matched the existing style in the file. Ahh, those emacs days in the ancient past.... That file pre-dates my *BSD/KNF/style(9) exposure. Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 18 20:56:27 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 20:56:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DC9C37B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:56:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23265; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:56:12 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200012190456.RAA23265@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: Bill Fumerola Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:56:50 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Tagged after release? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20001218142308.G72273@elvis.mu.org> References: <200012181725.eBIHP4D65882@vashon.polstra.com>; from jdp@polstra.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 09:25:04AM -0800 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18 Dec 2000, at 14:23, Bill Fumerola wrote: > [ redirected to -chat from -stable ] > > On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 09:25:04AM -0800, John Polstra wrote: > > > It is a file that our compiler maintainer finds useful as a tool for > > upgrading to newer versions of the compiler. I (wearing my yellow > > polka-dot FreeBSD CVS Administrator cap) put it into the repository. > > Is that the cap you use for adding files? I've seen the "cap" that > you use for deleteing them: > > http://people.freebsd.org/~billf/freebsdcon/thursday/DSC00055.JPG.html Careful Bill. Some of us have interesting photos of you at BSDCon. At least John was neither intoxicated nor hung over in that pic..... -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ NZ ADSL - http://www.unixathome.org/adsl/ NZ Broadband - http://www.unixathome.org/broadband/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 19 4:43:48 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 04:43:46 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout01.sul.t-online.com (mailout01.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF6F937B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 04:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from fwd02.sul.t-online.com by mailout01.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 148M7M-0003jb-04; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:43:44 +0100 Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (520050424122-0001@[62.225.192.124]) by fmrl02.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 148M76-0NYyqOC; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:43:28 +0100 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39830AB12; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:43:27 +0100 (CET) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6D12F14A5E; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:43:26 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:43:26 +0100 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT mailsend.c Message-ID: <20001219134326.A12295@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: alex@cichlids.cichlids.com, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freebsd.org References: <200012161047.eBGAlLp57615@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012161047.eBGAlLp57615@freefall.freebsd.org>; from jkh@FreeBSD.org on Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 02:47:20AM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. From: alex@big.endian.de (Alexander Langer) X-Sender: 520050424122-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Jordan K. Hubbard (jkh@FreeBSD.org): > . mailsend.c > Remove an extraneous bit of code which doesn't conform to style(9). *rotfl* I just took a look at the diff... I love this project! :-)) Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 19 13:39:40 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 13:39:37 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [207.154.226.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC1937B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:39:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1098) id AAFFD2B22F; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:39:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:39:31 -0600 From: Bill Fumerola To: Dennis Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Message-ID: <20001219153931.K72273@elvis.mu.org> Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org References: <43070.977244298@critter> <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com>; from dennis@etinc.com on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 12:25:43PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-FEARSOME-20001103 i386 Sender: billf@elvis.mu.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ move this to -chat from -hackers ] On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 12:25:43PM -0500, Dennis wrote: > did you even read my comments, you blubbering moron? lol. I said NOTHING > about theft. Zero. I guess you dont read english very well. FYI - I bought LanMedia's cards instead of ETinc's because I find you (for posts like the above as well as horror stories from customers) to be a Grade-A douche bag. I also found that the (open source) driver for the card was written by the aforementioned "blubbering moron" who I find to be a source of help when I have problems, unlike the dissatisfied customers of yours who fill the mail archives. -- Bill Fumerola - fumerola@yahoo-inc.com / billf@FreeBSD.org PS. Poul-Henning is more proficient in English then 95% of the native speakers I run into on a daily basis. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 19 14:16:49 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 14:16:47 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r16.bfm.org [216.127.220.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1714537B402 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:16:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id QAA00282; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:15:25 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:14:53 -0600 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Dennis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Message-ID: <20001219161453.A264@whizkidtech.net> References: <43070.977244298@critter> <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com>; from dennis@etinc.com on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 12:25:43PM -0500 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Special-Effects: http://www.FilmSFX.com/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 12:25:43PM -0500, Dennis wrote: >Am I a thief because my company provides value added solutions without >source to our enhancements on a freebsd platform? If you are insulted that >other people are using your work without paying for it then it sounds like >you dont fit in very well with the "open source" community Mr. Kamp. This brings about a question I have been wondering about for quite some time: How do you submit binary-only code to the ports collection? I just re-read the porters' handbook, and it seems to be assuming that you will always release source code for everything. But I am thinking about porting some of my Windows software to FreeBSD, yet, I do not want to release the source code (since much of it is the same I *sell* to Windows users in binary-only form). Then again, I may decide not to do it: My latest port submission has been sitting in the GNATS database for months, so why bother submitting more when nobody cares anyway? I submitted that particular port because I needed it for a much bigger port that was going to depend on it, but I stopped working on it because at this pace of ports being processed it would take me several years (literally-I did the math) to submit everything I was going to submit (with the new submissions recursively depending on the older ones). Cheers, Adam -- Press any key to continue, any other key to quit To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 19 15: 8:38 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 15:08:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.120.87.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C23AA37B69B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:08:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 1614 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 23:07:33 -0000 Received: from server.sherline.net (HELO server) (216.120.87.3) by sherline.net with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 23:07:33 -0000 Message-ID: <001101c06a0d$c6cd8250$035778d8@server> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: , "Dennis" Cc: "Poul-Henning Kamp" , References: <43070.977244298@critter> <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com> <20001219153931.K72273@elvis.mu.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:48:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > did you even read my comments, you blubbering moron? lol. I said NOTHING > > about theft. Zero. I guess you dont read english very well. > > FYI - I bought LanMedia's cards instead of ETinc's because I find you (for > posts like the above as well as horror stories from customers) to be a Grade-A > douche bag. What exactly makes a douche bag Grade-A ? Does the FDA enlist women to test douche with them ? :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 19 15: 8:41 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 15:08:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (sherline.net [216.120.87.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C082637B699 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:08:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 1614 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2000 23:07:33 -0000 Received: from server.sherline.net (HELO server) (216.120.87.3) by sherline.net with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 23:07:33 -0000 Message-ID: <001101c06a0d$c6cd8250$035778d8@server> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: , "Dennis" Cc: "Poul-Henning Kamp" , References: <43070.977244298@critter> <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com> <20001219153931.K72273@elvis.mu.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:48:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > did you even read my comments, you blubbering moron? lol. I said NOTHING > > about theft. Zero. I guess you dont read english very well. > > FYI - I bought LanMedia's cards instead of ETinc's because I find you (for > posts like the above as well as horror stories from customers) to be a Grade-A > douche bag. What exactly makes a douche bag Grade-A ? Does the FDA enlist women to test douche with them ? :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 19 21:22:33 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 21:22:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 234D637B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:22:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:20:36 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBK5MAO45155; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:22:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:22:10 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: Jason , Doug Young , ldmservices@charter.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!) Message-ID: <20001219212210.M96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <002301c06a1d$a52783c0$19bad818@debbie> <002701c06a25$27e7c9d0$aa240018@cx443070b> <006a01c06a40$11ffc580$ad181f40@bignet.net> <06fc01c06a28$7d9c3840$847e03cb@apana.org.au> <00b401c06a45$4d279020$ad181f40@bignet.net> <001d01c06a2d$279654d0$aa240018@cx443070b> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <001d01c06a2d$279654d0$aa240018@cx443070b>; from jgowdy@home.com on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 06:32:53PM -0800 Sender: cjc@rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 06:32:53PM -0800, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > You woldnt believe. comes with the fact I live way out in the boonies. > > Everytime the wind blows too hard power comes and goes....if its real bad > it > > can go down for hours/days. > > > > and I live in a state not really known for wind problems. Just the long > > haul power lines are stretched a long ways between poles and the wind can > > invoke a safety mechanism that opens the curcuit in case power line if > broke > > under the stress. > > I live in California. We're almost always in a stage-3 power emergency > anymore. Since the power companies were deregulated here (not considered > utilities anymore basically), they have shut down a bunch of plants for > "maintenance" (really so they can jack up the prices). Our power bill has > gone up to double what it once was. That's really strange. A lot of the current shortage is due to the fact that the power companies are legally not allowed to pass higher costs to the consumers. A lot of out-of-state power producers will not import to California because they can't get the market price and they are afraid the power companies will not have the money to pay them with rates capped like they are. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 19 21:34:41 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 21:34:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com (cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com [24.88.102.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB8CC37B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:34:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dmaddox@localhost) by cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBK5Yax00365; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:34:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dmaddox) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:34:36 -0500 From: "Donald J . Maddox" To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No cable modems?? Message-ID: <20001220003436.A345@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> Reply-To: dmaddox@sc.rr.com Mail-Followup-To: "Donald J . Maddox" , Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001219182739.C61697@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <200012200518.eBK5IsB15659@dungeon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012200518.eBK5IsB15659@dungeon.home>; from mckay@thehub.com.au on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:18:54PM +1000 Return-Receipt-To: dmaddox@sc.rr.com Sender: dmaddox@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm not sure I follow this. Why would I be likely to be a spammer just because I use a cable modem? Not sure what you mean about funneling, either. All my mail does go through my ISPs mail gateway. Apparently they don't rewrite my headers and I don't masquerade. Are you saying that I should? On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:18:54PM +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: > On Tuesday, 19th December 2000, "Donald J . Maddox" wrote: > > >Why are you (or your ISP) refusing to accept mail from people > >with cable modems? Enquiring minds want to know... ;-) > > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > >... while talking to frmug.org.: > >>>> MAIL From: > ><<< 550 no cable modems here > >554 5.0.0 roberto@keltia.freenix.fr... Service unavailable > > It's a spam reduction move. I'm surprised hub.freebsd.org accepts your > mail! You should funnel your mail through your ISP's central mail hub. > > Followups to -chat, I think. > > Stephen. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 19 21:39:36 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 21:39:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9233737B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:39:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20822; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:38:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001219223202.0467c4e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:38:44 -0700 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Jeremiah Gowdy From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!) Cc: Jason , Doug Young , ldmservices@charter.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001219212210.M96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> References: <001d01c06a2d$279654d0$aa240018@cx443070b> <002301c06a1d$a52783c0$19bad818@debbie> <002701c06a25$27e7c9d0$aa240018@cx443070b> <006a01c06a40$11ffc580$ad181f40@bignet.net> <06fc01c06a28$7d9c3840$847e03cb@apana.org.au> <00b401c06a45$4d279020$ad181f40@bignet.net> <001d01c06a2d$279654d0$aa240018@cx443070b> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:22 PM 12/19/2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: >That's really strange. A lot of the current shortage is due to the >fact that the power companies are legally not allowed to pass higher >costs to the consumers. That's not the full story. California power producers weighed the huge expense of building more power plants -- especially with California's environmental sentiments -- against the higher prices they would be allowed to reap if they didn't (due to deregulation and anticipated scarcity) and decided not to build. Now, with deregulation not yet complete, they have to take a loss on power they resell. Were deregulation complete, California customers would be gouged beyond belief, which would be even worse. This shows what happens when corporations have as much power over our lives -- if not more -- than governments. They effectively BECOME unelected governments, and their screwups affect public health and safety. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 19 22:19:44 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 22:19:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bryden.apana.org.au (bryden.apana.org.au [203.3.126.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46FF737B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:19:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from roadrunner (roadrunner.apana.org.au [203.3.126.132]) by bryden.apana.org.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA07658; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:25:03 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from dougy@bryden.apana.org.au) Message-ID: <000d01c06a4e$15def320$847e03cb@apana.org.au> From: "Doug Young" To: , "Jeremiah Gowdy" , "Brett Glass" Cc: "Jason" , , References: <001d01c06a2d$279654d0$aa240018@cx443070b> <002301c06a1d$a52783c0$19bad818@debbie> <002701c06a25$27e7c9d0$aa240018@cx443070b> <006a01c06a40$11ffc580$ad181f40@bignet.net> <06fc01c06a28$7d9c3840$847e03cb@apana.org.au> <00b401c06a45$4d279020$ad181f40@bignet.net> <001d01c06a2d$279654d0$aa240018@cx443070b> <4.3.2.7.2.20001219223202.0467c4e0@localhost> Subject: Re: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:28:26 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Whilst this is hardly the "proper" place for political debate, the point about "corporations have as much power over our lives -- if not more -- than governments" is a very real problem these days .... and not only in the US either !!!! When one considers that the head of state in most western countries is "officially" paid a fraction of what the "head of state" for major corporations earns, its obvious that many of these corporations are in a position to buy & sell virtually anyone they wish. eg its difficult for those of us outside the US to know exactly what dealings went on in order to get Bush in the White House, however some of us with nasty suspicious minds harbour a feeling that he didn't get there on the basis of personal ability. Not that OZ politicians are adverse to politicial shenanigans ...... a fair percentage of them are likely to end up with "free accommodation" shortly as a result of certain deceased persons who still managed to cast a vote or five, despite the fact that whatever is left of them is a couple meters underground !!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brett Glass" To: ; "Jeremiah Gowdy" Cc: "Jason" ; "Doug Young" ; ; Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 3:38 PM Subject: Re: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!) > At 10:22 PM 12/19/2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: > > >That's really strange. A lot of the current shortage is due to the > >fact that the power companies are legally not allowed to pass higher > >costs to the consumers. > > That's not the full story. California power producers weighed the > huge expense of building more power plants -- especially with > California's environmental sentiments -- against the higher prices > they would be allowed to reap if they didn't (due to deregulation > and anticipated scarcity) and decided not to build. Now, with > deregulation not yet complete, they have to take a loss on power > they resell. > > Were deregulation complete, California customers would be > gouged beyond belief, which would be even worse. > > This shows what happens when corporations have as much power > over our lives -- if not more -- than governments. They > effectively BECOME unelected governments, and their screwups > affect public health and safety. > > --Brett > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 19 23:33:30 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 23:33:28 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F15F37B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:33:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:31:51 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBK7XQY50929; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:33:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:33:21 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: "Donald J . Maddox" Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No cable modems?? Message-ID: <20001219233320.O96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20001219182739.C61697@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <200012200518.eBK5IsB15659@dungeon.home> <20001220003436.A345@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20001220003436.A345@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com>; from dmaddox@sc.rr.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:34:36AM -0500 Sender: cjc@rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:34:36AM -0500, Donald J . Maddox wrote: > I'm not sure I follow this. Why would I be likely to be a > spammer just because I use a cable modem? The first case is the actual subscriber who can push out huge amounts of spam down their fairly wide (typically at least 120Kb) pipe before their provider axes them, if they get reported, for violating the AUP. The other big problem is the poorly configured, default install of Linux, old FreeBSD, etc. sitting on the net 24/7 offering wide open relaying. A spammer finds them and *pow*. > Not sure what > you mean about funneling, either. All my mail does go through > my ISPs mail gateway. In the .mc file, you use your ISP's mail servers as a 'smart host' or the like? > Apparently they don't rewrite my headers > and I don't masquerade. Are you saying that I should? They should not be rewriting headers but simply appending their own. Have a look at mine. Not cable, but same kinda thing. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 19 23:39:20 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 23:39:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns5.pacific.net.au (ns5.pacific.net.au [203.143.252.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 983E837B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:39:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from dungeon.home (ppp140.dyn248.pacific.net.au [203.143.248.140]) by ns5.pacific.net.au (8.9.0/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA10807; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:39:12 +1100 (EST) Received: from dungeon.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dungeon.home (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eBK7doB17742; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:39:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mckay) Message-Id: <200012200739.eBK7doB17742@dungeon.home> To: dmaddox@sc.rr.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mckay@thehub.com.au Subject: Re: No cable modems?? References: <20001219182739.C61697@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <200012200518.eBK5IsB15659@dungeon.home> <20001220003436.A345@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <20001220003436.A345@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> from "Donald J . Maddox" at "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:34:36 -0500" Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:39:50 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 20th December 2000, "Donald J . Maddox" wrote: >On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:18:54PM +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: >> On Tuesday, 19th December 2000, "Donald J . Maddox" wrote: >> >> >... while talking to frmug.org.: >> >>>> MAIL From: >> ><<< 550 no cable modems here >> >554 5.0.0 roberto@keltia.freenix.fr... Service unavailable >> >> It's a spam reduction move. I'm surprised hub.freebsd.org accepts your >> mail! You should funnel your mail through your ISP's central mail hub. >I'm not sure I follow this. Why would I be likely to be a >spammer just because I use a cable modem? Not sure what >you mean about funneling, either. All my mail does go through >my ISPs mail gateway. Apparently they don't rewrite my headers >and I don't masquerade. Are you saying that I should? The idea is that your ISP's mail system can enforce valid return addresses and similar things. People who spam often make up what they like and connect directly from their modem (cable or otherwise) to your inbox. Removing them from the set of systems that can send you mail reduces the amount of spam you receive. I checked the headers in your current message. I assume that cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com [24.88.102.101] is a cable modem address, not your ISP's mail hub. So, your system is mailing directly to the world. My system sends all mail to smtp.pacific.net.au (using the smart relay host sendmail facility) rather than to the final recipient. That is what I mean by funneling through your ISP's mail hub. Read http://mail-abuse.org/dul to find out more. Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 19 23:41:23 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 23:41:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Mail6.sc.rr.com (fe6.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC6837B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:41:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from sc.rr.com ([24.88.102.101]) by Mail6.sc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:41:18 -0500 Received: (from dmaddox@localhost) by sc.rr.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBK7fUp03026; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:41:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dmaddox) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:41:29 -0500 From: "Donald J . Maddox" To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No cable modems?? Message-ID: <20001220024129.A2993@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> Reply-To: dmaddox@sc.rr.com Mail-Followup-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001219182739.C61697@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <200012200518.eBK5IsB15659@dungeon.home> <20001220003436.A345@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <20001219233320.O96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001219233320.O96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com>; from cjclark@reflexnet.net on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 11:33:21PM -0800 Return-Receipt-To: dmaddox@sc.rr.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 11:33:21PM -0800, Crist J. Clark wrote: > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:34:36AM -0500, Donald J . Maddox wrote: > > I'm not sure I follow this. Why would I be likely to be a > > spammer just because I use a cable modem? > > The first case is the actual subscriber who can push out huge amounts > of spam down their fairly wide (typically at least 120Kb) pipe before > their provider axes them, if they get reported, for violating the > AUP. > > The other big problem is the poorly configured, default install of > Linux, old FreeBSD, etc. sitting on the net 24/7 offering wide open > relaying. A spammer finds them and *pow*. I can understand bouncing mail from any address that is pushing large volumes of mail onto your server suggesting spamming. I cannot understand rejecting mail based solely on my domain, unless my domain was on the RBL list or something. > > > Not sure what > > you mean about funneling, either. All my mail does go through > > my ISPs mail gateway. > > In the .mc file, you use your ISP's mail servers as a 'smart host' or > the like? It wasn't, but it is now... Ollivier still bounces my mail :-/ > > > Apparently they don't rewrite my headers > > and I don't masquerade. Are you saying that I should? > > They should not be rewriting headers but simply appending their > own. Have a look at mine. Not cable, but same kinda thing. See anything wrong with the headers in this email? Ollivier (or Ollivier's ISP) does. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 19 23:43:33 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 23:43:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail8.sc.rr.com (fe8.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8511837B402 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:43:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sc.rr.com ([24.88.102.101]) by mail8.sc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:41:59 -0500 Received: (from dmaddox@localhost) by sc.rr.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBK7hZc03049; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:43:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dmaddox) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:43:35 -0500 From: "Donald J . Maddox" To: Stephen McKay Cc: dmaddox@sc.rr.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No cable modems?? Message-ID: <20001220024335.B2993@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> Reply-To: dmaddox@sc.rr.com Mail-Followup-To: Stephen McKay , dmaddox@sc.rr.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001219182739.C61697@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <200012200518.eBK5IsB15659@dungeon.home> <20001220003436.A345@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <200012200739.eBK7doB17742@dungeon.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012200739.eBK7doB17742@dungeon.home>; from mckay@thehub.com.au on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 05:39:50PM +1000 Return-Receipt-To: dmaddox@sc.rr.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 05:39:50PM +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: > On Wednesday, 20th December 2000, "Donald J . Maddox" wrote: > > >On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:18:54PM +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: > >> On Tuesday, 19th December 2000, "Donald J . Maddox" wrote: > >> > >> >... while talking to frmug.org.: > >> >>>> MAIL From: > >> ><<< 550 no cable modems here > >> >554 5.0.0 roberto@keltia.freenix.fr... Service unavailable > >> > >> It's a spam reduction move. I'm surprised hub.freebsd.org accepts your > >> mail! You should funnel your mail through your ISP's central mail hub. > > >I'm not sure I follow this. Why would I be likely to be a > >spammer just because I use a cable modem? Not sure what > >you mean about funneling, either. All my mail does go through > >my ISPs mail gateway. Apparently they don't rewrite my headers > >and I don't masquerade. Are you saying that I should? > > The idea is that your ISP's mail system can enforce valid return addresses > and similar things. People who spam often make up what they like and > connect directly from their modem (cable or otherwise) to your inbox. > Removing them from the set of systems that can send you mail reduces the > amount of spam you receive. > > I checked the headers in your current message. I assume that > cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com [24.88.102.101] is a cable modem address, > not your ISP's mail hub. So, your system is mailing directly to > the world. My system sends all mail to smtp.pacific.net.au (using > the smart relay host sendmail facility) rather than to the final > recipient. That is what I mean by funneling through your ISP's > mail hub. > > Read http://mail-abuse.org/dul to find out more. Just for the record, I changed my sendmail.mc to use smarter-host and masquerade, but it still gets rejected by Ollivier :-( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 0:33:10 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:33:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49EC137B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:31:30 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBK8X6l53558; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:33:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:33:06 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No cable modems?? Message-ID: <20001220003306.P96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20001219182739.C61697@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <200012200518.eBK5IsB15659@dungeon.home> <20001220003436.A345@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <20001219233320.O96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20001220024129.A2993@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20001220024129.A2993@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com>; from dmaddox@sc.rr.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 02:41:29AM -0500 Sender: cjc@rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 02:41:29AM -0500, Donald J . Maddox wrote: [snip] > See anything wrong with the headers in this email? Ollivier > (or Ollivier's ISP) does. OK, here is the piece that would be of interest, > Received: from Mail6.sc.rr.com (fe6.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.53]) > by alum.mit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id CAA19042 > for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:41:18 -0500 (EST) Now, this shows you are definately relaying through your ISP's mail server, $ dig southeast.rr.com mx ; <<>> DiG 8.3 <<>> southeast.rr.com mx ;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch ;; got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 4 ;; flags: qr aa rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 5, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 7 ;; QUERY SECTION: ;; southeast.rr.com, type = MX, class = IN ;; ANSWER SECTION: southeast.rr.com. 1H IN MX 100 mail6.southeast.rr.com. . . . ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: mail6.southeast.rr.com. 1H IN A 24.93.67.53 However, this might be trouble, $ dig Mail6.sc.rr.com ; <<>> DiG 8.3 <<>> Mail6.sc.rr.com ;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch ;; got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 4 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2 ;; QUERY SECTION: ;; Mail6.sc.rr.com, type = A, class = IN ;; ANSWER SECTION: Mail6.sc.rr.com. 23h56m20s IN A 24.93.67.181 . . . Your mailserver seems to be using a name, Mail6.sc.rr.com, that does not agree with the IP, 24.93.67.53 (or vice versa). Still, it's weird. You might want to consider a mail to the 'postmaster's at both ISPs. They should really work this out. It looks like you are doing everything right. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 0:51:29 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:51:26 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Mail6.sc.rr.com (fe6.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B38AC37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:51:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sc.rr.com ([24.88.102.101]) by Mail6.sc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:51:23 -0500 Received: (from dmaddox@localhost) by sc.rr.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBK8pZ103882; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:51:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dmaddox) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:51:35 -0500 From: "Donald J . Maddox" To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No cable modems?? Message-ID: <20001220035135.A3783@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> Reply-To: dmaddox@sc.rr.com Mail-Followup-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001219182739.C61697@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <200012200518.eBK5IsB15659@dungeon.home> <20001220003436.A345@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <20001219233320.O96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20001220024129.A2993@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <20001220003306.P96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001220003306.P96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com>; from cjclark@reflexnet.net on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:33:06AM -0800 Return-Receipt-To: dmaddox@sc.rr.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The interesting thing (at least to me) is that prior to my mail bouncing from Ollivier, I have *never* had such an incident, not even without using a 'smarterhost'. RoadRunner is as antispam as any ISP can be expected to be, and they run open relay tests on a regular basis to prevent the kind of abuses that have been mentioned earlier in this thread... I really cannot imagine why anyone would block my mail based solely on the 'no cable modems here' principle... Wow. On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:33:06AM -0800, Crist J. Clark wrote: > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 02:41:29AM -0500, Donald J . Maddox wrote: > > [snip] > > > See anything wrong with the headers in this email? Ollivier > > (or Ollivier's ISP) does. > > OK, here is the piece that would be of interest, > > > Received: from Mail6.sc.rr.com (fe6.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.53]) > > by alum.mit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id CAA19042 > > for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:41:18 -0500 (EST) > > Now, this shows you are definately relaying through your ISP's mail > server, > > $ dig southeast.rr.com mx > > ; <<>> DiG 8.3 <<>> southeast.rr.com mx > ;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch > ;; got answer: > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 4 > ;; flags: qr aa rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 5, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 7 > ;; QUERY SECTION: > ;; southeast.rr.com, type = MX, class = IN > > ;; ANSWER SECTION: > southeast.rr.com. 1H IN MX 100 mail6.southeast.rr.com. > . > . > . > ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: > mail6.southeast.rr.com. 1H IN A 24.93.67.53 > > However, this might be trouble, > > $ dig Mail6.sc.rr.com > > ; <<>> DiG 8.3 <<>> Mail6.sc.rr.com > ;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch > ;; got answer: > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 4 > ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2 > ;; QUERY SECTION: > ;; Mail6.sc.rr.com, type = A, class = IN > > ;; ANSWER SECTION: > Mail6.sc.rr.com. 23h56m20s IN A 24.93.67.181 > . > . > . > > Your mailserver seems to be using a name, Mail6.sc.rr.com, that does > not agree with the IP, 24.93.67.53 (or vice versa). > > Still, it's weird. You might want to consider a mail to the > 'postmaster's at both ISPs. They should really work this out. It looks I don't really see anything unusual about this... It's pretty common for mail.whatever.domain to be an alias, no? I think every ISP I have ever used had a mail gateway called mail*.whatever.domain that resolved to some other host than 'mail'. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 0:59: 7 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:59:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7D837B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:59:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA32378 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:59:02 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200012200859.VAA32378@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:59:13 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: No cable modems?? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Priority: normal In-reply-to: <200012200739.eBK7doB17742@dungeon.home> References: <20001220003436.A345@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> from "Donald J . Maddox" at "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:34:36 -0500" X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20 Dec 2000, at 17:39, Stephen McKay wrote: > Removing them from the set of systems that can send you mail reduces the > amount of spam you receive. I hope this doesn't spread. I have an ADSL connection and I send mail directly from my mailserver. I don't want to send my mailing list server output through my ISP. Nor should I. Part of the idea of handling my own mail was both the independence and the learning experience. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ NZ ADSL - http://www.unixathome.org/adsl/ NZ Broadband - http://www.unixathome.org/broadband/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 1: 0:29 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 01:00:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55C9A37B400; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:00:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from C992631-A.pinol1.sfba.home.com (C992631-A.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.12.58.155]) by shale.csir.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA71274; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:59:25 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by C992631-A.pinol1.sfba.home.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBK8v6w35394; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:57:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:57:06 -0800 From: Jeremy Lea To: lewst Cc: Will Andrews , KEVLO@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: where is KDE 2.0.1 ?!? Message-ID: <20001220005706.N79112@shale.csir.co.za> Mail-Followup-To: Jeremy Lea , lewst , Will Andrews , KEVLO@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001216051546.8643.qmail@web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001216051546.8643.qmail@web2102.mail.yahoo.com>; from lewst@yahoo.com on Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 09:15:46PM -0800 Sender: reg@shale.csir.co.za Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 09:15:46PM -0800, lewst wrote: > This kind of attitude is fine when you are supporting a hobby or pet > project, but not a supposedly serious and competitive OS like FreeBSD. > Critical pieces of the OS like KDE should be taken more seriously than > the other ports. If not, then FreeBSD will continue to linger behind > in Linus' shadow. RPMS for KDE 2.0.1 were available within hours of > the release. > > This issue is bigger than one port, or even KDE, so don't get sidetracked. > It's the attitude man. You're certainly not doing FreeBSD any favors with it. I would really like to commend you on this difficult task which you have undertaken, and I'm glad to see that you've found your calling in life, as a motivational speaker. However, I feel that there are many other projects outside of FreeBSD which could use some extra motivation, to achieve the same levels of perfection as you obviously have. An example which I would particularly like you to consider is that of motor racing. As a first suggestion, why don't you go down to your local stock car track, find someone who looks like they have a rather nice looking car, and then suggest that a Ferrari Formula 1 car would leave their nicely painted Chevy in the dust. Remember, motivation is all about persistance, so when the driver urges you to move along and stop bothering him - grab him by the shoulder and point out that a Ferrari can do 16000RPM, while their motor max'es out at a mere 6000RPM. This is obviously only a suggestion, and I'm sure that with your great skill with words, and your magnetic personality, you could come up with just the right words to get that driver to see Ferrari red... Regards, -Jeremy "oh, please take a video camera with..." -- FreeBSD - Because the best things in life are free... http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 1: 2:26 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 01:02:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F9E937B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:00:44 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBK92Fe55027; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:02:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:02:15 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No cable modems?? Message-ID: <20001220010215.R96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20001219182739.C61697@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <200012200518.eBK5IsB15659@dungeon.home> <20001220003436.A345@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <20001219233320.O96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20001220024129.A2993@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <20001220003306.P96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20001220035135.A3783@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20001220035135.A3783@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com>; from dmaddox@sc.rr.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:51:35AM -0500 Sender: cjc@rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:51:35AM -0500, Donald J . Maddox wrote: > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:33:06AM -0800, Crist J. Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 02:41:29AM -0500, Donald J . Maddox wrote: [snip] > > OK, here is the piece that would be of interest, > > > > > Received: from Mail6.sc.rr.com (fe6.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.53]) > > > by alum.mit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id CAA19042 > > > for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:41:18 -0500 (EST) [snip] > > However, this might be trouble, > > > > $ dig Mail6.sc.rr.com > > > > ; <<>> DiG 8.3 <<>> Mail6.sc.rr.com > > ;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch > > ;; got answer: > > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 4 > > ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2 > > ;; QUERY SECTION: > > ;; Mail6.sc.rr.com, type = A, class = IN > > > > ;; ANSWER SECTION: > > Mail6.sc.rr.com. 23h56m20s IN A 24.93.67.181 > > . > > . > > . > > > > Your mailserver seems to be using a name, Mail6.sc.rr.com, that does > > not agree with the IP, 24.93.67.53 (or vice versa). > > > > Still, it's weird. You might want to consider a mail to the > > 'postmaster's at both ISPs. They should really work this out. It looks > > I don't really see anything unusual about this... It's pretty common > for mail.whatever.domain to be an alias, no? I think every ISP I have > ever used had a mail gateway called mail*.whatever.domain that resolved > to some other host than 'mail'. Yeah, that is common, but that's not what is happening here. The name and address do not match. You would expect it is possible multiple names to map to one IP address, but here we have a machine giving a name which corresponds to a _different_ IP than the one from which the connection is coming. It looks like it is lying about being Mail6.sc.rr.com. But I am not sure if that is even the problem or not. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 1: 5: 3 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 01:05:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1054A37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:05:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA32444; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:04:56 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200012200904.WAA32444@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: "Crist J. Clark" Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:05:03 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: No cable modems?? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Stephen McKay Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20001220010215.R96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> References: <20001220035135.A3783@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com>; from dmaddox@sc.rr.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:51:35AM -0500 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20 Dec 2000, at 1:02, Crist J. Clark wrote: > Yeah, that is common, but that's not what is happening here. The name > and address do not match. You would expect it is possible multiple > names to map to one IP address, but here we have a machine giving a > name which corresponds to a _different_ IP than the one from which the > connection is coming. It looks like it is lying about being > Mail6.sc.rr.com. > > But I am not sure if that is even the problem or not. FWIW, I had exactly the same problem with my former ISP about a year or two ago. My mail was rejected from freebsd.org and the problem was the above situation. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ NZ ADSL - http://www.unixathome.org/adsl/ NZ Broadband - http://www.unixathome.org/broadband/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 1: 8:52 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 01:08:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail8.sc.rr.com (fe8.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B26BE37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:08:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from sc.rr.com ([24.88.102.101]) by mail8.sc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 04:07:25 -0500 Received: (from dmaddox@localhost) by sc.rr.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBK991l04056; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 04:09:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dmaddox) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 04:09:01 -0500 From: "Donald J . Maddox" To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No cable modems?? Message-ID: <20001220040901.A4033@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> Reply-To: dmaddox@sc.rr.com Mail-Followup-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001219182739.C61697@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <200012200518.eBK5IsB15659@dungeon.home> <20001220003436.A345@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <20001219233320.O96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20001220024129.A2993@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <20001220003306.P96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20001220035135.A3783@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <20001220010215.R96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001220010215.R96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com>; from cjclark@reflexnet.net on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:02:15AM -0800 Return-Receipt-To: dmaddox@sc.rr.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:02:15AM -0800, Crist J. Clark wrote: > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:51:35AM -0500, Donald J . Maddox wrote: > > > > I don't really see anything unusual about this... It's pretty common > > for mail.whatever.domain to be an alias, no? I think every ISP I have > > ever used had a mail gateway called mail*.whatever.domain that resolved > > to some other host than 'mail'. > > Yeah, that is common, but that's not what is happening here. The name > and address do not match. You would expect it is possible multiple > names to map to one IP address, but here we have a machine giving a > name which corresponds to a _different_ IP than the one from which the > connection is coming. It looks like it is lying about being > Mail6.sc.rr.com. > > But I am not sure if that is even the problem or not. Ah, yes, I see your point... But I think, like you suggest, that is not the problem here. Nobody has ever bounced my mail before, and the reason given in the reject was simply 'no cable modems here', and suggested nothing about host names resolving, etc... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 2:29: 2 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 02:29:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.thpoon.com (cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com [24.42.106.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 23C4137B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13294 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2000 10:28:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tea.thpoon.com) (mail@192.168.1.2) by cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2000 10:28:59 -0000 Received: from antipode by tea.thpoon.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 148gUU-0001Nd-00; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 05:28:58 -0500 To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No cable modems?? References: <20001220003436.A345@cae88-102-101.sc.rr.com> <200012200859.VAA32378@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: Arcady Genkin X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Organization: thpoon.com Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 20 Dec 2000 05:28:58 -0500 In-Reply-To: <200012200859.VAA32378@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> Message-ID: <87itofl72t.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Lines: 25 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Dan Langille" writes: > I hope this doesn't spread. I have an ADSL connection and I send mail > directly from my mailserver. I don't want to send my mailing list server > output through my ISP. Nor should I. Part of the idea of handling my > own mail was both the independence and the learning experience. Yes, I would second that. My ISP's (Rogers) mail servers are down quite often, and there have been incidents with mail lost at all. I'm using my FreeBSD box on a cable modem as my own incoming and outgoing mail gateway, and have no intention of changing this. I think that the human tendency to over-generalize dangerously spreads into computer networks' configuration. Only because some admins _can_ play gods doesn't mean that it's a right (or even fair) thing to do. This might be a sentiment, but I don't want to be called a spammer with no grounds to it. p.s. I understand that a person is free to do whatever the heck he wants to his own incoming mail server's configuration. But I'm concerned with a tendency. I like having my own mail gateway (and I make sure it does not allow relaying). -- Arcady Genkin Don't read everything you believe. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 2:57: 1 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 02:56:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from greg.ad9.com (greg.ad9.com [64.161.198.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43F8937B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:56:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from greg.ad9.com (nepolon@greg.ad9.com [64.161.198.140]) by greg.ad9.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA16130 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:13:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:13:16 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Lewis X-Sender: nepolon@greg.ad9.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!) In-Reply-To: <20001219212210.M96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: > That's really strange. A lot of the current shortage is due to the > fact that the power companies are legally not allowed to pass higher > costs to the consumers. A lot of out-of-state power producers will not > import to California because they can't get the market price and they > are afraid the power companies will not have the money to pay them > with rates capped like they are. Except when, as recently, California government officials invoke some ancient war-time law which forces Oregon power utilities to sell power to California at prices set by the purchaser, despite the fact that areas of Oregon are already locking down power usage for the locals. I have heard a whole new wave of anti-Cali jokes the last week... --Steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 4:14:32 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 04:14:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw.gbch.net (gw.gbch.net [203.24.22.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EA29F37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 04:14:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 72606 invoked by uid 1001); 20 Dec 2000 22:14:12 +1000 X-Posted-By: GBA-Post 2.07 04-Dec-2000 X-URL: http://www.gbch.net X-Image-URL: http://www.gbch.net/gjb/img/gjb-auug048.gif X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5A91 6942 8CEA 9DAB B95B C249 1CE1 493B 2B5A CE30 X-PGP-Public-Key: http://www.gbch.net/gjb/gjb-pgpkey.asc Message-Id: Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:14:11 +1000 From: Greg Black To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: <43070.977244298@critter> <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com> <20001219153931.K72273@elvis.mu.org> In-reply-to: <20001219153931.K72273@elvis.mu.org> of Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:39:31 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Fumerola wrote: > [ move this to -chat from -hackers ] > > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 12:25:43PM -0500, Dennis wrote: > > > did you even read my comments, you blubbering moron? lol. I said NOTHING > > about theft. Zero. I guess you dont read english very well. > > FYI - I bought LanMedia's cards instead of ETinc's because I find you (for > posts like the above as well as horror stories from customers) to be a Grade-A > douche bag. I also found that the (open source) driver for the card was written > by the aforementioned "blubbering moron" who I find to be a source of help when > I have problems, unlike the dissatisfied customers of yours who fill the mail > archives. Even if ETinc's products were any good, I will certainly stick to my policy of avoiding vendors who feel that it's OK to talk that way about people they disagree with. Sadly, Dennis will probably not go hungry because of that, but at least I won't help him to get fat. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 7:30:39 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 07:30:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3AF937B69C for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:30:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 148lCO-0003KM-00; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:30:36 +0100 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBKEljE19215 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:47:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:47:45 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <91qgqh$i5b$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com> <20001219161453.A264@whizkidtech.net> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: daemon@mips.inka.de Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > This brings about a question I have been wondering about for quite some > time: How do you submit binary-only code to the ports collection? See net/cvsup-bin or shells/ksh93 for examples. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 9:33:32 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 09:33:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r32.bfm.org [216.127.220.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F0C37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:33:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id LAA00275 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:32:05 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:31:34 -0600 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Rite of Passage Message-ID: <20001220113134.B242@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Special-Effects: http://www.FilmSFX.com/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org After using FreeBSD, the GENERIC version for more than two years, I finally decided to go through what the FAQ calls the Rite of Passage, that is, customizing my kernel. For a long time I felt very nervous about doing that, too many what-if questions (what if I cannot get it up and lose all my work, and such). But I needed to add more virtual memory, and for that I needed to include the vn pseudo-device into my kernel. So, this morning I went through the kernel configuration file, cutting out things mercilessly (I have no SCSI on this system, for example, or I cut out all Ethernet support since FBSD did not recognize my cheap Infotel card anyway), and finally rebuilt the kernel. I expected it to take hours and run out of virtual memory couple of times (that is quite standard when installing many of the X ports -- XFree86 itself took 8 hours to make!). But, I was pleasantly surprised: The whole process only took several minutes. I ended up with a kernel that is a whole megabyte smaller, and now I have a 64 Meg swap file (only 8 Meg of actual RAM). I rebooted, and watched the system coming up. Everything went smoothly, and everything is working. Hey, I even received a phone call from my brother who lives in Slovakia and whom I rarely get a chance to talk with! (Well, maybe the timing was a coincidence, but karma works in weird ways, so who knows. :) Perhaps I should post this in newbies rather than chat, but essentially all I want to say is: If this Unix thingie is still relatively new to you, you might want to hear that rebuilding the FreeBSD kernel is a painless process, smoother than installing many of the ports. So, if you feel nervous about building a custom kernel (just as I did for so long), don't be! Go for it! The worst thing that can happen is that you will have to type in the name of the old kernel if it does not work (which, of course, you should copy to another file first). And kudos to the kernel developers for making such a nice, powerful, yet very flexible system! Thank you for a work well done. Adam -- Press any key to continue, any other key to quit To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 9:54:21 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 09:54:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.cstone.net (mail.cstone.net [209.145.64.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 538A037B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from cstone.net (aylee.mrgoodbucks.com [209.145.93.143]) by mail.cstone.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBKHs8f12961 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:54:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A40F2E6.3E522977@cstone.net> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:56:54 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Rite of Passage References: <20001220113134.B242@whizkidtech.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > And kudos to the kernel developers for making such a nice, powerful, > yet very flexible system! Thank you for a work well done. I'd definitely have to agree! The first time I rebuilt the kernel was "over the wire" - I did it on a machine colocated at our service provider, rebuilt everything, then rebooted - and prayed for a few minutes while I hoped SSH would come back up. It did and everything worked beautifully. I do it regularly now, trying to tweak out more performance, and the only time I've ever messed up was when I was upgrading from 3.X to 4.X, and took out something that specifically said 'don't take me out'. :-) SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - "The Man. The goatee. The reputation." - Kimmet "What the hell is wrong with that boy?!?" - Adrienne Uphoff "What the French lack in reason they make up for in sheer gall." - Onion "Did anyone else read this and think of SeanMike?" - Leybourne To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 11:21:23 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 11:21:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5143237B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29291; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:20:19 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001220120244.04767ed0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:20:09 -0700 To: "Doug Young" , , "Jeremiah Gowdy" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!) Cc: "Jason" , , In-Reply-To: <000d01c06a4e$15def320$847e03cb@apana.org.au> References: <001d01c06a2d$279654d0$aa240018@cx443070b> <002301c06a1d$a52783c0$19bad818@debbie> <002701c06a25$27e7c9d0$aa240018@cx443070b> <006a01c06a40$11ffc580$ad181f40@bignet.net> <06fc01c06a28$7d9c3840$847e03cb@apana.org.au> <00b401c06a45$4d279020$ad181f40@bignet.net> <001d01c06a2d$279654d0$aa240018@cx443070b> <4.3.2.7.2.20001219223202.0467c4e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:28 PM 12/19/2000, Doug Young wrote: >Whilst this is hardly the "proper" place for political debate, the point >about >"corporations have as much power over our lives -- if not more -- than >governments" >is a very real problem these days .... and not only in the US either !!!! Absolutely. Many of today's Libertarians -- especially American Libertarians -- hold the notion of "private property" sacrosanct, even when that property is owned by a large corporation rather than a private individual. From this logic arises their odd notion that, while governments should be limited, corporations -- which in many cases have more control than governments over key aspects of our lives -- should be untouchable, even when they pass the "duck test" for being a government. These ideologues, all of whom grew up in democracies, forget that before democracy was widespread there was another form of government: empires. Today, a citizen of a democracy may in fact be ruled simultaneously by several "horizontal" empires -- private corporations such as utility companies each desiring complete control of one business, market, or aspect of citizens' lives. None, of course, are democratically elected, so if the government does not regulate them, what we have in fact are unbridled governments. This is exactly the opposite of what a principled Libertarian would want. I recently asked an American Libertarian think tank -- fee.org -- if I could submit an article explaining this thesis to their newsletter. So horrified were they by the notion that this simple idea might get out that they not only refused the article but indicated a desire to repress the idea. I believe that they may have been worried that their large corporate sponsors (e.g. Microsoft) would react badly. >When one considers that the head of state in most western countries is >"officially" paid a fraction of what the "head of state" for major >corporations earns, its obvious that many of these corporations are in a >position to buy & sell virtually anyone they wish. eg its difficult for >those of us outside the US to know exactly what dealings went on in order to >get Bush in the White House, however some of us with nasty suspicious minds >harbour a feeling that he didn't get there on the basis of personal >ability. Bush became a candidate because monied interests thought that he would favor them and thus contributed many millions to his campaign. He won because a majority of the Supreme Court justices, some of whom wished to retire and be replaced by members of the same political party, were willing to defy their own long standing principles to ensure that party's victory. Two of the justices in the majority had close relatives who were actively campaigning, and yet did not recuse themselves -- a horrendous breach of judicial ethics. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 11:22:20 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 11:22:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-107.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60B7B37B402 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:22:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBKJWGQ17889; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:32:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200012201932.eBKJWGQ17889@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Garrett Wollman Cc: nsayer@kfu.com, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: A way to encourage PGP/GPG key connectivity? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:19:35 EST." <200012201819.NAA43203@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:32:16 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > < said: > > > I would object strenuously if S/MIME certification was not, at least, > > given an equal footing > > It doesn't have an equal footing in reality, so we can hardly be the > ones to give it one. (As I think your experience at BSDcon clearly > demonstrated.) Fight! Fight! ($10 on Nick. He's nasty!) -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 11:30:32 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 11:30:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (unknown [216.152.64.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BB5337B402 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:30:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from whenever ([216.152.68.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:30:24 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: Subject: RE: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:30:29 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001220120244.04767ed0@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Bush became a candidate because monied interests thought that he would > favor them and thus contributed many millions to his campaign. Actually, both candidates got significant contributions from both individuals and companies. > He won > because a majority of the Supreme Court justices, some of whom wished > to retire and be replaced by members of the same political party, were > willing to defy their own long standing principles to ensure that party's > victory. Two of the justices in the majority had close relatives who were > actively campaigning, and yet did not recuse themselves -- a horrendous > breach of judicial ethics. I'm sure that being a fair-minded person, you would put the Florida Supreme Court's decision to prevent the election results from being certified in the same category. Remember, not only did nobody ask them to issue the restraining order, but they had no power to do so. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 12:17: 4 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 12:17:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ECDA37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:17:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:15:03 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBKKGT584672; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:16:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:16:28 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Brett Glass Cc: Doug Young , cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Jeremiah Gowdy , Jason , ldmservices@charter.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Will It Never End? (was Re: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!)) Message-ID: <20001220121628.C83116@rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexco> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <001d01c06a2d$279654d0$aa240018@cx443070b> <002301c06a1d$a52783c0$19bad818@debbie> <002701c06a25$27e7c9d0$aa240018@cx443070b> <006a01c06a40$11ffc580$ad181f40@bignet.net> <06fc01c06a28$7d9c3840$847e03cb@apana.org.au> <00b401c06a45$4d279020$ad181f40@bignet.net> <001d01c06a2d$279654d0$aa240018@cx443070b> <4.3.2.7.2.20001219223202.0467c4e0@localhost> <000d01c06a4e$15def320$847e03cb@apana.org.au> <4.3.2.7.2.20001220120244.04767ed0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001220120244.04767ed0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:20:09PM -0700 Sender: cjc@rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:20:09PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: [snip] > Bush became a candidate because monied interests thought that he would > favor them and thus contributed many millions to his campaign. He won > because a majority of the Supreme Court justices, some of whom wished > to retire and be replaced by members of the same political party, were > willing to defy their own long standing principles to ensure that party's > victory. Two of the justices in the majority had close relatives who were > actively campaigning, and yet did not recuse themselves -- a horrendous > breach of judicial ethics. And the whole reason it was tossed to the US Supreme Court was that the Florida state court made an blatently partisan ruling in the first place. Still, even if the Florida Supreme Court was itself misguided, I personally don't see how it was a manner for the Feds to get invovled. As long as the state of Florida had its Electoral College representitives casting their votes by the deadline, I think it would be up to the Florida executive (in the form of the Sec. of State in this case), the court (Florida Supreme Court), and the legislature (who is GOP dominated) to duke it out for themselves. And _that_ would have been a fun show to watch. In the end, I believe the legislature had the final say on the Electoral College reps by Florida law, so it most likely would have gone the same way if things had been up in the air to the last minute. Each state casts its votes for the President, and how they decide to cast them, as it currently stands in Constutional law, is deliberately vague and separated from the popular vote. Unless the state has Constitutional issue to be raised (and the only one I ever saw seriously raised, certain fringe groups' accusations of civil right violations aside, was whether the FL recounts could be done in time (they realistically could not) and whether a revote was even possible (that was rejected before it got near the US Supreme Court)), I don't see why the Feds have much say in how a Florida county or the state add up their votes. Say what you want about Richard "Tricky Dick" Nixon, but at least he had the grace to spare the country this kind of thing in '60 when he conceded to Kennedy. They'd still be counting the chads of deceased (and I don't mean ones that have died since the election) voters in Illinios to this day. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 12:20: 5 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 12:20:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C929A37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:20:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00269; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:19:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001220131426.00baa830@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:19:48 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" From: Brett Glass Subject: Election (Was: CA Power Shortage) Cc: In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001220120244.04767ed0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:30 PM 12/20/2000, David Schwartz wrote: > Actually, both candidates got significant contributions from both >individuals and companies. Bush was promoted as a candidate in the first place, and then ushered to an overwhelming primary victory over McCain, by large corporations -- most especially Big Oil. McCain did not receive the same support. > I'm sure that being a fair-minded person, you would put the Florida Supreme >Court's decision to prevent the election results from being certified in the >same category. No, I wouldn't. They were not acting in a partisan manner; if anything, they were trying to forestall a partisan effort to squelch the voice of the people. This is admirable. Remember, the Florida Secretary of State was Bush's Florida campaign manager. And since Florida will shortly be eliminating the office, there is already talk within the Republican party of "rewarding" her for her sabotage of the voting process. >Remember, not only did nobody ask them to issue the >restraining order, but they had no power to do so. They did have power to do so. The Secretary of State violated the law. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 12:39:39 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 12:39:37 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.tfcc.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 979E737B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:39:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by proxy.tfcc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA24581 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:39:49 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: proxy.tfcc.com: mail set sender to using -f Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by proxy.tfcc.com via smap (V2.1/2.1a) id xma024561; Wed, 20 Dec 00 15:39:39 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:39:36 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Fuhrman X-Sender: To: Subject: Re: Rite of Passage In-Reply-To: <20001220113134.B242@whizkidtech.net> Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As someone who regularly works with Linux systems, I find compiling the FreeBSD kernel significantly easier than compiling the Linux kernel. The LINT file is a major help for figuring out what line items to add in for your various h/w. I know that Redhat has made Linux installation a snap without recompiling one's kernel, but there's still warm fuzzy you get when you do it yourself :) Hope everyone has a good holiday! On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > After using FreeBSD, the GENERIC version for more than two years, I finally > decided to go through what the FAQ calls the Rite of Passage, that is, > customizing my kernel. > -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 13:47: 8 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 13:47:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B737737B402 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:47:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBKLkjP91202; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:46:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:46:45 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Will It Never End? (was Re: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!)) In-Reply-To: <20001220121628.C83116@rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexco> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Crist J. Clark wrote: > As long as the state of Florida had its Electoral College > representitives casting their votes by the deadline, I think it would > be up to the Florida executive (in the form of the Sec. of State in > this case), Appointed to her job by W's brother and co-chair of W's Florida campaign committee. No hint of partisanship there. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is to computing what a McDonalds Certified Food Specialist is to fine cuisine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 14: 1:28 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 14:01:26 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-107.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73EAF37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:01:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBKMBEQ18387; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:11:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200012202211.eBKMBEQ18387@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Darren Reed Cc: wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman), nsayer@kfu.com, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: A way to encourage PGP/GPG key connectivity? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:54:29 +1100." <200012202154.IAA12707@avalon.reed.wattle.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:11:14 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In some email I received from Garrett Wollman, sie wrote: > [...] > > Um, for many people the precise opposite is true. Netscape and > > Outbreak are two of the most abysmally poor e-mail clients on the face > > of the earth. > > Just like Windows is an abysmally poor desktop/server platform, right ? > > Get your head out of the sand. Fight! Fight! ($10 on Darren. Gotta stick up for the motherland.) -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 14:41:52 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 14:41:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D68C037B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:41:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:40:09 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBKMfjf85461; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:41:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:41:45 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: jack Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Will It Never End? (was Re: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!)) Message-ID: <20001220144145.D83116@rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexco> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20001220121628.C83116@rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexco> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 04:46:45PM -0500 Sender: cjc@rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 04:46:45PM -0500, jack wrote: > Today Crist J. Clark wrote: > > > As long as the state of Florida had its Electoral College > > representitives casting their votes by the deadline, I think it would > > be up to the Florida executive (in the form of the Sec. of State in > > this case), > > Appointed to her job by W's brother and co-chair of W's Florida > campaign committee. No hint of partisanship there. :) But partisanism (is that even a word?) is pretty much expected from the executive or legislative branches. We only really only try pretend that the judiciary is free of such base motives. Anyway, IIRC, it usually is the governor who does that job, but Jeb stepped down. I mean, yeah, the head of the executive _is_ the guy's brother. What can you really do? It is the job of the executive to run the election and the administration is made up of the governor's people, so, yeah, the governor's appointees are running the election. Wanna hear a real scandal? People appointed by George W. _himself,_ not his brother, ran the election in Texas. ;) -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 15:49:43 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 15:49:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (f26.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5967B37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:49:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:49:41 -0800 Received: from 194.17.208.94 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:49:40 GMT X-Originating-IP: [194.17.208.94] From: "Rocky Balboa" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Join now and help freebsd Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:49:40 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Dec 2000 23:49:41.0128 (UTC) FILETIME=[85322080:01C06ADF] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There must be plenty of freebsd based boxes out there, that has plenty of CPU idle time. Why not put it to use and at the same time make some free advertising for freebsd? Join Team FreeBSD and help us crunch some numbers in the www.distributed.net RC5-64 challenge. All you need to do is download a small client, install it, and sign up for our team. The client only uses the idle time, and will not have any impact on your machines other services. Its truly nice to resources, you will hardly notice its running. Check out the RC5 challenge homepage at http://www.distributed.net and the Team FreeBSD homepage at http://www.posi.net/freebsd/Team-FreeBSD/ Join now, we need all the help we can get, there are teams running OS/2 and MacIntosh's that is currently doing better then us, and you dont want that to happen, do you? :) Observe that neither me or Team FreeBSD is in any way connected to the FreeBSD organisation other then that we use FreeBSD as our operative system of choice and would love to see its name at the top of the RC5 Challenge scoreboard. If you find this mail to be spam, I do sincerely apologize. I hate spam just as much as any other intelligent internet user. I hope you understand... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 21:22:57 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 21:22:52 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9D3B37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:22:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06678; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:22:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001220184139.0462dbb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:31:23 -0700 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Will It Never End? (was Re: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!)) Cc: Doug Young , Jeremiah Gowdy , Jason , ldmservices@charter.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001220121628.C83116@rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexco> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001220120244.04767ed0@localhost> <001d01c06a2d$279654d0$aa240018@cx443070b> <002301c06a1d$a52783c0$19bad818@debbie> <002701c06a25$27e7c9d0$aa240018@cx443070b> <006a01c06a40$11ffc580$ad181f40@bignet.net> <06fc01c06a28$7d9c3840$847e03cb@apana.org.au> <00b401c06a45$4d279020$ad181f40@bignet.net> <001d01c06a2d$279654d0$aa240018@cx443070b> <4.3.2.7.2.20001219223202.0467c4e0@localhost> <000d01c06a4e$15def320$847e03cb@apana.org.au> <4.3.2.7.2.20001220120244.04767ed0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:16 PM 12/20/2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: >And the whole reason it was tossed to the US Supreme Court was that >the Florida state court made an blatently partisan ruling in the first >place. The Florida Supreme Court, despite being composed mostly of Democratic appointees, did not make a partisan ruling. It simply insisted that Florida law -- which requires that ballots be counted so that the voter's intent is registered -- be enforced. It did not undertake to choose the president, as the US Supreme Court did, or to change the law. In fact, by insisting upon the "intent of the voter" standard, the Florida Supreme Court explicitly AVOIDED making new law or changing the rules after the election. That standard is Florida law -- and also the law in a large number of other states (see Stevens' dissent). Yes, that standard is flexible, and intentionally so. There are so many types of voting machines and ballots, and so many different things that can go wrong with them, that nothing else is universally applicable. Allowing county election judges to use their discretion to interpret that standard for the voting mechanism used, and to determine the voter's intent, is... well... allowing them to be judges! To rule that this violates the "equal protection" clause of the state or Federal Constitution is tantamount to saying that having different judges presiding in different courts, or having different district attorneys in different jurisdictions (DAs routinely use their discretion as to which cases to prosecute), or having police officers who can decide to cut you a little slack if you JUST BARELY don't make it through a red light, violates the people's rights too. In that case, we have a much BIGGER "equal protection" problem and might as well dismantle all of our court systems right now. >Still, even if the Florida Supreme Court was itself misguided, I >personally don't see how it was a manner for the Feds to get >invovled. I agree. The Feds should not have taken the case -- and certainly should not have granted a PRELIMINARY stay of the Florida Supreme Court's recount order before hearing the case. >As long as the state of Florida had its Electoral College >representitives casting their votes by the deadline, I think it would >be up to the Florida executive (in the form of the Sec. of State in >this case), the court (Florida Supreme Court), and the legislature >(who is GOP dominated) to duke it out for themselves. And _that_ would >have been a fun show to watch. In the end, I believe the legislature >had the final say on the Electoral College reps by Florida law, so it >most likely would have gone the same way if things had been up in the >air to the last minute. Florida law delegates the Legislature's right to choose to the people. Had the legislators appointed electors by resolution, they would have been changing the rules after the election and thus would have been violating not only Florida law but Federal law. >Each state casts its votes for the President, and how they decide to >cast them, as it currently stands in Constutional law, is deliberately >vague If it were vague, it'd be unconstitutional. Fortunately, IMHO, it's pretty clear. >and separated from the popular vote. It makes the use of a popular vote an OPTION. This is deplorable and must be changed, or we have no right to call our government democratic. >Unless the state has >Constitutional issue to be raised (and the only one I ever saw >seriously raised, certain fringe groups' accusations of civil right >violations aside, was whether the FL recounts could be done in time >(they realistically could not) They absolutely could have! This was one part of the US Supreme Court's majority opinion that was patently and provably false. The 12th (the day which the majority frittered away before issuing its ruling) was NOT a hard deadline. Electoral votes are not counted until January, and states have delayed sending electors until then (as Stevens points out in his dissent). Now, I'm not saying that Gore realistically could have won. However, all of the impediments he faced were political and partisan. The deck was stacked! Had the Supreme Court not overruled the will of the people, the Republican Congress would have -- proving that we have a government of, by, and for the two major parties. Like Crips and Bloods fighting over a city block, these two gangs care not about the inhabitants but only about the amount of turf they can capture. It's sad and really quite scary. >and whether a revote was even possible >(that was rejected before it got near the US Supreme Court)), IMHO, a revote would have been the correct solution to the problem. An election is a data gathering process. As any scientist knows, it is not appropriate to draw conclusions from data gathered with so large a margin of error as to make the result inconclusive. (If you do, you'll be laughed out of any respectable scientific journal.) Instead, you obtain a better measuring instrument (or change your procedure to reduce the margin of error) and measure again. In Florida, there was precedent for a new election. The case law was already there, so no new law needed to be made. There should have been a revote -- especially in Palm Beach County, where 19,000 overvotes were registered and at least 2,500 votes were mistakenly cast for Buchanan. >I don't >see why the Feds have much say in how a Florida county or the state >add up their votes. They shouldn't. Under the current system, they should simply accept the electors and their ballots as input. Under a better system, they would accept counts of the popular vote, collected via standardized procedures by personnel with no party affiliation. Under the best possible system, they would accept data for a "single transferable vote" (sometimes called "instant runoff") election. >Say what you want about Richard "Tricky Dick" Nixon, but at least he >had the grace to spare the country this kind of thing in '60 when he >conceded to Kennedy. They'd still be counting the chads of deceased >(and I don't mean ones that have died since the election) voters in >Illinios to this day. In Florida this year, it was even worse. Thousands (mostly blacks) were turned away from the polls because their names were removed from the voting rolls. The computer service firm which removed their names admitted that the process -- which was designed to purge deceased citizens and felons from the rolls -- was fraught with error. That difference was enough to give the election to Gore. Then there were the Republicans that tampered with ballot applications in two counties, ensuring that Republicans received ballots when Democrats did not. And the fact that the "butterfly" ballot was patently illegal under Florida law. Oh, and the police roadblocks that "just happened" to spring up between black neighborhoods and their polling places. And the understaffed polling places that kept voters waiting for hours... and then closed without allowing them to vote. I don't like either Bush or Gore, by the way. Each became the candidate by right of succession rather than because he was a good choice. Both are insincere politicians whose agendas are dictated not by good sense but by party platforms and campaign contributions. We didn't even have good third party candidates this time around. Nader is hopelessly egoistic and espouses some very extreme stances. (For example, thanks to Jamie Love, who works on his staff, he espouses the notion that intellectual property laws should be abolished, rather than fixed so that they strike a proper balance between the interests of consumers and content providers.) Nader hijacked the Green Party to serve as a bully pulpit for... Ralph Nader. Buchanan? Even worse.... Among other things, he has praised Hitler's "leadership" and is openly bigoted. Gore's record as vice president -- he at first supported such things as online privacy, but flipped at the behest of powerful interests -- makes it clear that he would not have been a particularly good president. And Lieberman, like Tipper Gore, is pro-censorship. (So, ironically, is McCain -- who to this day is actively promoting legislation to censor Internet access at schools and libraries.) In any event, it is undeniable that if the rules were followed -- that is, if the will of the people had mattered -- Gore would have won. Bush is, to put it simply, not a legitimate president. The United States, which is often called in to supervise elections in countries that are new to democracy, will face the irony of spending four years (hopefully no longer!) under the questionable governance of a president who did not win the election: "President by Mistake" George W. Bush. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 21:24:49 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 21:24:46 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from berzerk.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (berzerk.gpcc.itd.umich.edu [141.211.2.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67C637B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:24:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from joust.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (smtp@joust.gpcc.itd.umich.edu [141.211.2.148]) by berzerk.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id AAA21572; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:24:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (timcm@localhost) by joust.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with ESMTP id AAA05037; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:24:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:24:42 -0500 (EST) From: Tim McMillen X-Sender: timcm@joust.gpcc.itd.umich.edu To: "Crist J. Clark" Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy , Jason , Doug Young , ldmservices@charter.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!) In-Reply-To: <20001219212210.M96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes, but what everyone involved knows, but that nobody (i.e. the press) seems to talk about is that even if more power production capacity was online in CA, the power grid could not handle a whole lot more. Yes, the current problems are definitely exacerbated by a lot of power plants being offline (which it is not known that that is due to them trying to raise the prices, that is just an allegation currently in the courts), and not many new ones being produced (perhaps due it being bad politics--environmental groups try to stop them and seem successful). The real problem is that the power grid is so old and so near breaking down in some places that it could not handle all that much more power capacity anyway. I believe the limit is somewhere slightly (but not enough--especially considering the need for breathing room) above the current power production capacity, but I don't think there are any hard numbers on this and I couldn't find any guesses in print. I do not know why the power grid issue does not get much press. Apparently it is well known. There was an entire NPR program about it this summer. They had an interview with a few power engineers that were talking about the frailty of the power grid in CA (maybe other places too, it's just coming to a head in CA). It seems the problem is economic and political. There is no economic incentive for the power companies to invest in power grid upgrades. Why should a power company spend billions on something that benefits their competitors as much as themselves. Hint: they won't. It is the classic economic free-rider problem. Why spend money when you can take a free ride on what somebody else spends. And while I generally subscribe to the Laisse Faire school of thought, it is generally considered that there is no solution to the free rider problem (in public utility cases) except for government intervention. And the CA government does not seem able to get enough agreement on how to do what many people know needs to get done. So with the sad state of the power grid, the low rate of power production capacity increase, the high rate of power use increase and the large number of years that a power grid upgrade would take even if it were already planned and started today (I don't believe anything has been even planned), the power problem in CA will get MUCH worse before it gets better. Can you say weekly scheduled rolling blackouts? Ok, hopefully it won't go that far, but it doesn't look like there's a quick fix possible. Sorry for the extremely off topic post, but it will affect many if not all of us. Tim On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 06:32:53PM -0800, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > > You woldnt believe. comes with the fact I live way out in the boonies. > > > Everytime the wind blows too hard power comes and goes....if its real bad > > it > > > can go down for hours/days. > > > > > > and I live in a state not really known for wind problems. Just the long > > > haul power lines are stretched a long ways between poles and the wind can > > > invoke a safety mechanism that opens the curcuit in case power line if > > broke > > > under the stress. > > > > I live in California. We're almost always in a stage-3 power emergency > > anymore. Since the power companies were deregulated here (not considered > > utilities anymore basically), they have shut down a bunch of plants for > > "maintenance" (really so they can jack up the prices). Our power bill has > > gone up to double what it once was. > > That's really strange. A lot of the current shortage is due to the > fact that the power companies are legally not allowed to pass higher > costs to the consumers. A lot of out-of-state power producers will not > import to California because they can't get the market price and they > are afraid the power companies will not have the money to pay them > with rates capped like they are. > -- > Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 20 21:45:26 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 21:45:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3612137B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:45:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 512 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2000 05:45:15 -0000 Received: from gargoyle.outpost.co.nz (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.42) by outpost-4.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 21 Dec 2000 05:45:15 -0000 Message-ID: <3A4198E9.FE2DC3C1@outpost.co.nz> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:45:13 +1300 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim McMillen , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim McMillen wrote: > even planned), the power problem in CA will get MUCH worse before it gets > better. Can you say weekly scheduled rolling blackouts? Ok, hopefully it > won't go that far, but it doesn't look like there's a quick fix possible. Hmmm, watch those GE home Fuel Cells fly off the production line once they become available next year? -- C. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 21 3:36:33 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 03:36:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EFFC37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 03:36:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from WhizKid (r0.bfm.org [216.127.220.96]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 05:37:59 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001221053512.0099d6e0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 05:35:12 -0600 To: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-Reply-To: <91qgqh$i5b$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com> <20001219161453.A264@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 14:47 20-12-2000 +0000, Christian Weisgerber wrote: >G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > >> This brings about a question I have been wondering about for quite some >> time: How do you submit binary-only code to the ports collection? > >See net/cvsup-bin or shells/ksh93 for examples. Thanks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 21 9:47:49 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 09:47:47 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E274E37B400; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:47:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.15 #3) id 148ATd-0007gD-00; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:17:57 +0000 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:17:57 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Daniel O'Connor Cc: John Baldwin , Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Warner Losh , Greg Lehey Subject: Re: Coding style (was Re: cvs commit: [...] pci.c [...]) Message-ID: <20001219001757.A30096@hand.dotat.at> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: fanf@dotat.at Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel O'Connor wrote: > >On 17-Dec-00 John Baldwin wrote: >> > Buy a bubble jet printer, install apsfilter and use a2ps to generate nice >> > listings... >> Umm, a2ps still turns out 80 columns, IIRC. And if you use something better >> (c2ps) with 2-up or 4-up, which does syntax formatting and other nifty stuff, >> _it_ wraps at 80 columns. > >Well a2ps has --columns but on further investigation they don't seem to work The old pre-GNU a2ps was very configurable, and you could persuade it to fit lots on the page by fiddling with the font size etc. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at "Perhaps on your way home you will pass someone in the dark, and you will never know it, for they will be from outer space." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 21 9:52:45 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 09:52:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1E1D37B402 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:52:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBLHqca07963; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:52:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:52:38 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Dennis Cc: Marco van de Voort , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Message-ID: <20001221095238.R19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001220192150.01f42450@mail.etinc.com> <20001221104823.6BE7C96EC@toad.stack.nl> <5.0.0.25.0.20001221120837.022ab0a0@mail.etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001221120837.022ab0a0@mail.etinc.com>; from dennis@etinc.com on Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 12:45:09PM -0500 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Dennis [001221 09:41] wrote: > > What "hurts" the tree is all of the crappy source and proprietory bullshit > that finds it way into the "tree" netgraph, half-baked bridging, filtering > stuff...these should all be add-ons with specific hooks so that users can > chose between the "Free stuff" and commercially available modules. For the > source weenies, they can use the "all source" solutions, while companies > who want superior functionality can pay for commercially supported solutions. Heh, like Firewall-1 vs ipfilter? Seriously, I don't have much of a problem with closed source technology, but I really think you're smoking crack if you're stating that just because something is closed, proprietary and expensive that somehow equates to better functionality. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 21 11: 9:14 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 11:09:12 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3465B37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:09:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA73582; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:07:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:07:47 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Craig Harding Cc: Tim McMillen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!) In-Reply-To: <3A4198E9.FE2DC3C1@outpost.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 21 Dec 2000, Craig Harding wrote: > Hmmm, watch those GE home Fuel Cells fly off the production line once > they become available next year? Except that they require natural gas service (I suppose you could truck it or propane in) and natural gas seems to be a bit more expensive these days. Granted, if the price per kWh in CA keeps going up it could well be cost effective to buy a MicroGen. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 21 11:52:37 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 11:52:35 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (oldftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D6637B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:52:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from whenever ([216.152.68.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:52:28 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Tim McMillen" , "Crist J. Clark" Cc: Subject: RE: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:52:34 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It seems the problem is economic and political. There is no > economic incentive for the power companies to invest in power grid > upgrades. Why should a power company spend billions on something that > benefits their competitors as much as themselves. Hint: they won't. It > is the classic economic free-rider problem. Why spend money when you can > take a free ride on what somebody else spends. And while I generally > subscribe to the Laisse Faire school of thought, it is generally > considered that there is no solution to the free rider problem (in public > utility cases) except for government intervention. And the CA government > does not seem able to get enough agreement on how to do what many people > know needs to get done. Obviously it will take a government-supplied solution to fix a government-created problem. If companies could own the improvements they made to the power grid and charge their competitors a price to benefit from them, there wouldn't be a free-rider problem. California's current electrical system was entirely crafted by government regulators. If you put perverse economic incentives on companies, they will act perversely. They have to, because they have an obligation to protect the financial interests of their shareholders. So you'll find California energy producers selling energy to other states when California is in a level 3 emergency simply because these other states can pay more. One thing, however, should be apparent to anyone who understands economics. If the government acts to hold prices down, shortages are pretty much inevitable. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 21 12:39:30 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 12:39:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from berzerk.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (berzerk.gpcc.itd.umich.edu [141.211.2.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED1FB37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:39:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from frogger.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (smtp@frogger.gpcc.itd.umich.edu [141.211.2.144]) by berzerk.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id PAA18434; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:39:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (timcm@localhost) by frogger.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with ESMTP id PAA27802; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:39:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:39:24 -0500 (EST) From: Tim McMillen X-Sender: timcm@frogger.gpcc.itd.umich.edu To: David Schwartz Cc: "Crist J. Clark" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 21 Dec 2000, David Schwartz wrote: > > > It seems the problem is economic and political. There is no > > economic incentive for the power companies to invest in power grid > > upgrades. Why should a power company spend billions on something that > > benefits their competitors as much as themselves. Hint: they won't. It > > is the classic economic free-rider problem. Why spend money when you can > > take a free ride on what somebody else spends. And while I generally > > subscribe to the Laisse Faire school of thought, it is generally > > considered that there is no solution to the free rider problem (in public > > utility cases) except for government intervention. And the CA government > > does not seem able to get enough agreement on how to do what many people > > know needs to get done. > > Obviously it will take a government-supplied solution to fix a > government-created problem. If companies could own the improvements they > made to the power grid and charge their competitors a price to benefit from > them, there wouldn't be a free-rider problem. California's current Yes, but how do you institute this? My point was that power companies never would have created a working power grid in the first place due to the free rider problem. It would take an unusual amount of cooperation. Not impossible, just highly unlikely. Instead, they would have each tried to make their own platform that benefited them the most and made everyone else pay them excess royalties to use it. That makes economic sense and is being the most responsible to their shareholders. But it is not the best for everyone. It is exactly what happens in the computer world. Microsofts API, Sun's, etc. It's also the exact same reason that the highway infrastructure will not get (and never would have gotten) built by private companies. Everyone benefits from it, but not enough to spend their own cash if everyone else won't do it. So in infrastructure (like the power grid, even OS API's) cases, free competition gets locked into sub optimal outcomes and will not get out of it by free competition. Now it is possible for a non government coalition to do this, but it is unlikely that they would get the support needed or the structure organization, proper management, etc to do so. Especially given the current situation, but also in the first place. For computers I believe this is possible though. The best possible solution seems to be a unified API that is technically superior and that everyone (all OS makers) implements. That way programs only need to be written once, never ported. It is a powerful idea and Sun tried to corner it to their advantage, once again demonstrating my point. There are definite disadvantages to a unified API. Sacrifices would have to be made, as no one API could be the best for every aspect. But the advantages would be huge. If the interface was well desinged, understood, and documented, there would be vastly greater competition in the application software market and quality would be greatly improved. This standard API is the one advantage that M$ offers and is the only reason they've been able to achieve the amount of lock in that they did. Everybody knew that technically their OS sucked (they did too, they were just making scarily good business decisions), but people still used it because it was a defacto standard. You could go anywhere and buy software for it. "Who cares if the os and the app crashes if I can buy it anywhere" beat out better technical operating systems. The standard API is what UNIX lacked and why so many people stopped writing software for unix. When you had to write and maintain different versions to run on xenix, solaris, sco, etc, it just wasn't worth it. > electrical system was entirely crafted by government regulators. > > If you put perverse economic incentives on companies, they will act > perversely. They have to, because they have an obligation to protect the > financial interests of their shareholders. So you'll find California energy > producers selling energy to other states when California is in a level 3 > emergency simply because these other states can pay more. > > One thing, however, should be apparent to anyone who understands economics. > If the government acts to hold prices down, shortages are pretty much > inevitable. Very true unless manged correctly. What CA is trying to do is have it both ways. Have free competition, while holding down prices. That is guaranteed to not work. However, if price, supply and investment in capacity and infrastructure are well managed, a government agancy can hold prices low (at a socially optimal level). Unfortunately *can* make it work is very different from making it work. This is where I have problems because I don't really believe in the governments ability to make the right decisions either. Obviously they are not [making those correct decisions], even when what they are doing is clearly incorrect. Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 21 14: 9:56 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 14:09:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF1B37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:09:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:07:57 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBLM9R302329; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:09:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:09:27 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Brett Glass Cc: Doug Young , Jeremiah Gowdy , Jason , ldmservices@charter.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Will It Never End? (was Re: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!)) Message-ID: <20001221140927.A2118@rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexco> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: cjc@rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OK, my last one on this. Seriously. On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:31:23 -0700, Brett Glass wrote, [snip] > IMHO, a revote would have been the correct solution to the problem. > An election is a data gathering process. As any scientist knows, > it is not appropriate to draw conclusions from data gathered with > so large a margin of error as to make the result inconclusive. (If you > do, you'll be laughed out of any respectable scientific journal.) > Instead, you obtain a better measuring instrument (or change your > procedure to reduce the margin of error) and measure again. But any scientist also knows that there is and will always be some margin of error in any measurement. Voting is a messy process and will always have some inherent, irreducible error. So what _do_ you do when the result falls within the noise, as it did in this case? I suppose it is possible that if you had a re-vote, the signal might emerge from the noise, but it is quite possible the outcome would still be well within the error margin. Since you are not actually making the same measurement in both cases (imagine how different the turnout would be), you cannot use multiple measurements as a way to reduce the error. I don't know of any really good answers. I guess there is always the classic fallback the Electoral goes to if no one gets a majority, toss it to the legislature. Actually, hmmm, where did I see a little discussion of reducing the error in voting... Oh, yeah, Bruce Schneier rebuttted some of those saying more computerized or (*ack*) on-line voting is a cure-all for this kind of thing in this month's Crypto-gram. > I don't like either Bush or Gore, by the way. Me neither. I guess I like Gore less, but since I excersised the option to vote for neither of Gore or Bush, I really did not have to sit down and decide which was the lesser of two evils. But it would have been nice if Gore won so that we could have split Congress and the Executive among the Dems and Reps as much as possible. Typically, the less legislation they can agree on and pass in Washington, the better. > In any event, it is undeniable that if the rules were followed -- > that is, if the will of the people had mattered -- Gore would have won. But those are _not_ the rules, and everyone knew that going into this. The Electoral College silliness is the rule, and I don't think there is anyway anyone can say conclusively that "Gore won" according to those rules. I don't think you ever will be able to say who "really" won because, as you mention, the result of the Florida vote was within the error margin which means no one actually won the Florida popular vote. The only way to settle such a vote (discounting a re-vote which has no guarantee of having a better outcome and a lot of othe thorny issues) is by an arbitrary interpretation of the results. That's what we got. And those are the rules. G.W. Bush is the President-Elect (as ironic as that title is), he really won. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 21 23:40:32 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 23:40:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc.usc.edu (citusc.usc.edu [128.125.38.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E0B637B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 23:40:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc.usc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01038 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 23:41:47 -0800 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 23:41:47 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Would you like fries with that? Message-ID: <20001221234147.A954@citusc.usc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ibTvN161/egqYuK8" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i Sender: kris@citusc.usc.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline http://www.kgw.com/kgwnews/nationworld_story.html?StoryID=9881 Kris --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6QwWaWry0BWjoQKURAuk0AKDc4WgZGtQTnou/JOyCjSEh6Hb5IACfc8w7 zTNQCuhOWx9EcHdOuEhE2t8= =4xQf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ibTvN161/egqYuK8-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 22 1:36:14 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 01:36:13 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056D937B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 01:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA07428; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:36:08 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200012220936.WAA07428@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: Kris Kennaway Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:36:06 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Would you like fries with that? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20001221234147.A954@citusc.usc.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21 Dec 2000, at 23:41, Kris Kennaway wrote: > http://www.kgw.com/kgwnews/nationworld_story.html?StoryID=9881 Old news. Damn ockers are always behind the times.... ;) -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ NZ ADSL - http://www.unixathome.org/adsl/ NZ Broadband - http://www.unixathome.org/broadband/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 22 10:41:51 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 10:41:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.thpoon.com (cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com [24.42.106.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3C3F637B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:41:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 11841 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2000 18:41:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tea.thpoon.com) (mail@192.168.1.2) by cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 2000 18:41:47 -0000 Received: from antipode by tea.thpoon.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 149X8U-00007W-00 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:41:46 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Would you like fries with that? References: <20001221234147.A954@citusc.usc.edu> From: Arcady Genkin X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Organization: thpoon.com Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 22 Dec 2000 13:41:46 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20001221234147.A954@citusc.usc.edu> Message-ID: <87itoc5mdx.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway writes: > http://www.kgw.com/kgwnews/nationworld_story.html?StoryID=9881 What really surprises me is that people expect quality from a company like McDonald's. What's such a big deal about McDonald's? Is that a symbol of national pride, so that an small incident like this reaches the Department of Agriculture? Would they report it to the Dep't if this happened in a family restaurant on the courner? Puzzled, -- Arcady Genkin Don't read everything you believe. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 22 13:22:28 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 13:22:26 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from radius.city-guide.com (unknown [64.245.125.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D46B837B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from enitech (unverified [216.2.8.218]) by radius.city-guide.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.2.181) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:20:21 -0500 Message-ID: <003d01c06c5d$15aad750$da0802d8@enitech> From: "Chris" To: References: <20001221234147.A954@citusc.usc.edu> <87itoc5mdx.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Subject: Re: Would you like fries with that? Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:20:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I couldn't agree more. what kind of society do we have here if we actually think McDonalds food isn't the substandard garbage that is truly is... . oh yeah, doh, we're americans... I used to think that chicken tenders were made from Chicken paste. At least now, i am comforted by the fact that it's actual chicken parts going into that wonderful little delicacy of theirs. Of course, where i live , i have boycotted MickeyD's for a few months, because the employees at this particular restraunt ( if it's ok to call it that) aren't competent enough to stand even in the unemployment line. of course, i don't even bother to complain to managers anymore, which generally don't care either ( i lived in miami for 4 years...there is no such thing as customer service , especially at a fast food place in that cheesy town) I wished this would've happened to me. i would've just ate half of it and asked for more. chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arcady Genkin" To: Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Would you like fries with that? > Kris Kennaway writes: > > > http://www.kgw.com/kgwnews/nationworld_story.html?StoryID=9881 > > What really surprises me is that people expect quality from a company > like McDonald's. > > What's such a big deal about McDonald's? Is that a symbol of national > pride, so that an small incident like this reaches the Department of > Agriculture? Would they report it to the Dep't if this happened in a > family restaurant on the courner? > > Puzzled, > -- > Arcady Genkin > Don't read everything you believe. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 22 15:46:54 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 15:46:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D82DE37B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B732657498; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:47:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:47:00 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Would you like fries with that? Message-ID: <20001222174700.B70667@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" References: <20001221234147.A954@citusc.usc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001221234147.A954@citusc.usc.edu>; from kris@freebsd.org on Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 11:41:47PM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: keichii@peorth.iteration.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 11:41:47PM -0800, Kris Kennaway scribbled: | http://www.kgw.com/kgwnews/nationworld_story.html?StoryID=9881 Hey now! I like chicken heads. ;) Matter of fact, some Chinese people love to eat the chicken head and behind especially. Bah, us Taiwanese people eat anything besides kitchen sinks and PCB boards.) Now, you should also try blowfish sashimi in Japanese food...yum.. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 22 15:57: 3 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 15:57:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-107.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50DE37B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBN06Kj06147; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:06:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200012230006.eBN06Kj06147@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: chris@calldei.com Cc: opentrax@email.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:43:36 CST." <20001222174335.A3922@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:06:20 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Friday, December 22, 2000, opentrax@email.com wrote: > > Thank you for your attention. > > > > Next month I'm giving a talk about the evils of SSH. > > If you don't know anything about it, why do you claim it's > evil? Give him a break. Ever since the fairings comment, he's been trying to be funny. I'm sure that this latest public resurgence is a result of a lot of quiet behind-the-scenes work on new material, and that when he gets to the punchline, we'll all be rolling in the aisles. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 22 16:32:10 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 16:32:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B03637B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:32:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 07CE96AB6D; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 11:02:06 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 11:02:05 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Would you like fries with that? Message-ID: <20001223110205.A64790@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20001221234147.A954@citusc.usc.edu> <20001222174700.B70667@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001222174700.B70667@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 05:47:00PM -0600 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 22 December 2000 at 17:47:00 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: > On Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 11:41:47PM -0800, Kris Kennaway scribbled: >> http://www.kgw.com/kgwnews/nationworld_story.html?StoryID=9881 > > Hey now! I like chicken heads. ;) Matter of fact, some Chinese > people love to eat the chicken head and behind especially. And I always thought the feet were the delicacy. The part of the report I found best was: Ortega said someone who wasn't looking closely could have easily mistaken the chicken's head for another piece of chicken, I wonder what she thought it was. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 22 22:52:19 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 22:52:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.jtjang.idv.tw (4.c74.ethome.net.tw [210.58.74.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2BA37B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:52:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from keith@localhost) by freebsd.jtjang.idv.tw (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBN6pw010410 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:51:58 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from keith) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:51:58 +0800 From: Jing-Tang Keith Jang To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Would you like fries with that? Message-ID: <20001223145157.A45392@freebsd.jtjang.idv.tw> Reply-To: keith@FreeBSD.ORG Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001221234147.A954@citusc.usc.edu> <20001222174700.B70667@peorth.iteration.net> <20001223110205.A64790@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001223110205.A64790@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 11:02:05AM +1030 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD freebsd.jtjang.idv.tw 5.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12/23/00, Greg Lehey wrote: > And I always thought the feet were the delicacy. I like the chest part. :-) > The part of the report I found best was: > > Ortega said someone who wasn't looking closely could have easily > mistaken the chicken's head for another piece of chicken, > > I wonder what she thought it was. It looks like chicken wing from its back. :-) "I ate its head off!", the customer might have said. -- Keep it simple AND stupid. PGP Key ID: 0x282FCE52 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 22 23: 3: 9 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 23:03:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.jtjang.idv.tw (4.c74.ethome.net.tw [210.58.74.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B65137B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 23:03:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from keith@localhost) by freebsd.jtjang.idv.tw (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBN72o041188 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:02:50 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from keith) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:02:50 +0800 From: Jing-Tang Keith Jang To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Would you like fries with that? Message-ID: <20001223150248.B45392@freebsd.jtjang.idv.tw> Reply-To: keith@FreeBSD.ORG Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001221234147.A954@citusc.usc.edu> <20001222174700.B70667@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001222174700.B70667@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 05:47:00PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD freebsd.jtjang.idv.tw 5.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12/22/00, Michael C . Wu wrote: > On Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 11:41:47PM -0800, Kris Kennaway scribbled: > | http://www.kgw.com/kgwnews/nationworld_story.html?StoryID=9881 > > Hey now! I like chicken heads. ;) Matter of fact, some Chinese > people love to eat the chicken head and behind especially. It depends on how they're prepared. I myself like frog legs if they are stewed with proper sauces. Maybe plus some icy Taiwan Beer in the summer... > Bah, us Taiwanese people eat anything besides kitchen sinks and PCB boards.) Actually we will, once good recipes are found. -- Keep it simple AND stupid. PGP Key ID: 0x282FCE52 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 22 23:22:36 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 23:22:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD6837B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 23:22:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 298A05749A; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 01:22:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 01:22:42 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: keith@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Would you like fries with that? Message-ID: <20001223012241.B75903@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" References: <20001221234147.A954@citusc.usc.edu> <20001222174700.B70667@peorth.iteration.net> <20001223150248.B45392@freebsd.jtjang.idv.tw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001223150248.B45392@freebsd.jtjang.idv.tw>; from keith@freebsd.jtjang.idv.tw on Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 03:02:50PM +0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: keichii@peorth.iteration.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 03:02:50PM +0800, Jing-Tang Keith Jang scribbled: | On 12/22/00, Michael C . Wu wrote: | > On Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 11:41:47PM -0800, Kris Kennaway scribbled: | > | http://www.kgw.com/kgwnews/nationworld_story.html?StoryID=9881 | > | > Hey now! I like chicken heads. ;) Matter of fact, some Chinese | > people love to eat the chicken head and behind especially. | | It depends on how they're prepared. I myself like frog legs if | they are stewed with proper sauces. Yes, very much so. I had a plateful stir-fried duck tongues tonight. Quite tasty. | Maybe plus some icy Taiwan Beer in the summer... Ever since I came to the U.S. for school, I have been converted to black-and-tan, and/or pure Guinness. I will have to convert you into a beer-snob when you come here next year. ;) (beer-snob is someone who only drinks good beer. i.e. NOT Budweiser) I especially enjoy tasting microbrewery beer. | > Bah, us Taiwanese people eat anything besides kitchen sinks and PCB boards.) | | Actually we will, once good recipes are found. Do you think that the Realtek.com.tw people have found a good recipe for PCB boards? It seems that their NIC should be in a wok instead of a PCI slot. Of course, if we email them to ask them to open their recipe, they might refuse to do so, just like their NIC driver source. (Yes, I have asked them for the NIC driver source.) | -- | Keep it simple AND stupid. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 23 11:51:45 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 11:51:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4E6B37B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 11:51:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14838; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:50:40 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001223124211.00cf5940@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:50:34 -0700 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Will It Never End? (was Re: CA Power Shortage (was Re: Why do you support Yahoo!)) Cc: Doug Young , Jeremiah Gowdy , Jason , ldmservices@charter.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001221140927.A2118@rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexco> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:09 PM 12/21/2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: >But any scientist also knows that there is and will always be some >margin of error in any measurement. Voting is a messy process and will >always have some inherent, irreducible error. So what _do_ you do when >the result falls within the noise, as it did in this case? I suppose >it is possible that if you had a re-vote, the signal might emerge from the >noise, but it is quite possible the outcome would still be well within >the error margin. Improve your methods of measurement until you get a result that is within a resonable confidence interval. Otherwise, do not publish. >Since you are not actually making the same >measurement in both cases (imagine how different the turnout would >be), The turnout would be different because one of the sources of error in the measurement was that voters were turned away from the polls -- a horrendous violation of their rights as citizens. It would be the same measurement, but without this filter on the input. >Actually, hmmm, where did I see a little discussion of reducing the >error in voting... Oh, yeah, Bruce Schneier rebuttted some of those >saying more computerized or (*ack*) on-line voting is a cure-all for >this kind of thing in this month's Crypto-gram. Online and/or electronic voting is not a cure-all, but would likely be better than current techniques. >> I don't like either Bush or Gore, by the way. > >Me neither. I guess I like Gore less, but since I excersised the >option to vote for neither of Gore or Bush, I really did not have to >sit down and decide which was the lesser of two evils. But it would >have been nice if Gore won so that we could have split Congress and >the Executive among the Dems and Reps as much as possible. Typically, >the less legislation they can agree on and pass in Washington, the >better. Unfortunately, other positions within the administration also matter. Now that Bush has named John Ashcroft as his Attorney General, watch Bill Gates and his cronies get off scot-free as the government abandons the antitrust case. (Gates has the Republicans well bought, and Ashcroft is a party line ultra-right-winger.) Also watch for all voluntary termination of pregnancy to be outlawed in the U.S. within 4 years. >> In any event, it is undeniable that if the rules were followed -- >> that is, if the will of the people had mattered -- Gore would have won. > >But those are _not_ the rules, and everyone knew that going into >this. The Electoral College silliness is the rule, and I don't think >there is anyway anyone can say conclusively that "Gore won" according >to those rules. I can. Look at the statistics! According to those rules AND Florida law (which requires ballots to be laid out in a single column with the check boxes or punch holes to the right of the names) Gore won. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 23 14:33:31 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 14:33:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA3B37B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:33:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15610 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:33:24 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001223153103.04756d10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:32:26 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Nick "Scrooge" Petreley Bashes BSDs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nick Petreley, editor of LinuxWorld, uses his Christmas InfoWorld column to bash not one but all of the BSDs. See http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/00/12/25/001225oppetreley.xml To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 23 14:46:23 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 14:46:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1145637B400; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:46:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 270A66AB6D; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 09:16:15 +1030 (CST) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 09:16:15 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.org, advocacy@OpenBSD.org Subject: Re: Nick "Scrooge" Petreley Bashes BSDs Message-ID: <20001224091615.A68374@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001223153103.04756d10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001223153103.04756d10@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 03:32:26PM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 23 December 2000 at 15:32:26 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Nick Petreley, editor of LinuxWorld, uses his Christmas InfoWorld > column to bash not one but all of the BSDs. > > See > > http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/00/12/25/001225oppetreley.xml Well, Brett, it's no secret that we don't exactly see eye to eye, but this time I'm left wondering what you're talking about. To quote: (To the tune of 'O Christmas Tree') O BSD, O BSD! How rarely have I heard it! FreeBSD, NetBSD, No matter how you word it! It's only Linux all the time, Yes, even though you're in your prime. O BSD, O BSD! How rarely have I heard it! Not only would I not call that bashing, I'd call it advocacy. Not the most spectacular advocacy, granted, but certainly in favour. Oh, and he left out OpenBSD. Before you see something sinister in that, I'd guess that he didn't care too much, and it was difficult to fit in. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 23 14:59: 1 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 14:58:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C0F437B400; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:58:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15793; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:58:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001223155613.04c99160@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:58:33 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Nick "Scrooge" Petreley Bashes BSDs Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.org, advocacy@OpenBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20001224091615.A68374@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001223153103.04756d10@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001223153103.04756d10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:46 PM 12/23/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: >Not only would I not call that bashing, I'd call it advocacy. I wouldn't. Petreley's financial fortunes and career are tied to Linux, and he often puts the BSDs down in hope of advancing his personal interests. Like Perens and other radical Linux zealots, he is devoid of ethics. This is just one example. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 23 15:18:47 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 15:18:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from azrael.israfil.net (24.68.8.153.on.wave.home.com [24.68.8.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B42A837B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 20423 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2000 23:21:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO radience) (10.145.0.3) by azrael.israfil.net with SMTP; 23 Dec 2000 23:21:03 -0000 Message-ID: <04cb01c06d36$d10e22c0$0300910a@israfil.net> From: "Christian Edward Gruber" To: "Greg Lehey" , "Brett Glass" Cc: , , , References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001223153103.04756d10@localhost> <20001224091615.A68374@wantadilla.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Nick "Scrooge" Petreley Bashes BSDs Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:19:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Excuse me, but he mentioned OpenBSD four separate times, albeit using the contracted O BSD. ;) cg. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Lehey" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: ; ; ; Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Nick "Scrooge" Petreley Bashes BSDs > On Saturday, 23 December 2000 at 15:32:26 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > Nick Petreley, editor of LinuxWorld, uses his Christmas InfoWorld > > column to bash not one but all of the BSDs. > > > > See > > > > http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/00/12/25/001225oppetreley.xml > > Well, Brett, it's no secret that we don't exactly see eye to eye, but > this time I'm left wondering what you're talking about. To quote: > > (To the tune of 'O Christmas Tree') > > O BSD, O BSD! > How rarely have I heard it! > FreeBSD, NetBSD, > No matter how you word it! > It's only Linux all the time, > Yes, even though you're in your prime. > O BSD, O BSD! > How rarely have I heard it! > > Not only would I not call that bashing, I'd call it advocacy. Not the > most spectacular advocacy, granted, but certainly in favour. Oh, and > he left out OpenBSD. Before you see something sinister in that, I'd > guess that he didn't care too much, and it was difficult to fit in. > > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 23 15:21:53 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 15:21:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snark.piermont.com (snark.piermont.com [206.1.51.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918A837B400; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:21:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by snark.piermont.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A1D8A1E00AC; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:21:43 -0500 (EST) Sender: perry@snark.piermont.com From: "Perry E. Metzger" To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.org, advocacy@OpenBSD.org Subject: Re: Nick "Scrooge" Petreley Bashes BSDs References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001223153103.04756d10@localhost> <20001224091615.A68374@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: 23 Dec 2000 18:21:43 -0500 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Sun, 24 Dec 2000 09:16:15 +1030" Message-ID: <87d7eiwwoo.fsf@snark.piermont.com> Lines: 24 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > (To the tune of 'O Christmas Tree') > > O BSD, O BSD! > How rarely have I heard it! > FreeBSD, NetBSD, > No matter how you word it! > It's only Linux all the time, > Yes, even though you're in your prime. > O BSD, O BSD! > How rarely have I heard it! > > Not only would I not call that bashing, I'd call it advocacy. It is pretty damn mild. I'd just let it pass. Who cares? We have code to write. .pm -- Perry E. Metzger perry@wasabisystems.com -- Quality NetBSD CDs, Support & Service. http://www.wasabisystems.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 23 15:58:59 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 15:58:57 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from q7.net (unknown [209.216.94.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 49F8D37B402 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:58:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26618 invoked by uid 1000); 24 Dec 2000 01:11:16 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 20:11:16 -0500 From: Al Lipscomb To: advocacy@openbsd.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.org Subject: Re: Nick "Scrooge" Petreley Bashes BSDs Message-ID: <20001223201116.C14145@q7.net> Mail-Followup-To: advocacy@openbsd.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.org References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001223153103.04756d10@localhost> <20001224091615.A68374@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001224091615.A68374@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Sun, Dec 24, 2000 at 09:16:15AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I can see no form of advocacy for anything, including Linux in the article. -- | The Libertarian Party does not have the answers to all of your problems... But they are at least honest enough to say so. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 23 16:51:50 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 16:51:47 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E6E037B402 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 16:51:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b030.otenet.gr [195.167.121.158]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eBO0pah16312; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 02:51:37 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBNJbLI72353; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 21:37:21 +0200 (EET) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 21:37:21 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Randy Katz , Matthew Emmerton , Otter , Drew Tomlinson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How to Get Program to Start Automatically Upon Boot Message-ID: <20001223213721.D48060@hades.hell.gr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from cliff@raggedclown.net on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 07:03:17AM +0000 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ moving over to -chat, in case this thread somehow continues to live ] On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 07:03:17AM +0000, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 08:32:08PM -0800, Randy Katz wrote: > > > > Typically, the /usr/local/etc/rc.d mechanism is used instead of > > rc.local these days... > > Errm, well that's cleared that up hasn't it.. mmm. The word "typically" is > interesting, typically by who ? By the one who wrote the manpage :-P - giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 23 23:40: 7 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 23:40:03 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from field.videotron.net (field.videotron.net [205.151.222.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2788337B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:40:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from modemcable213.3-201-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca ([24.201.3.213]) by field.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.12.14.10.29.p8) with ESMTP id <0G620045TAMOTW@field.videotron.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 02:40:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 02:40:58 -0500 (EST) From: Bosko Milekic Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-reply-to: To: Alex Belits Cc: Wes Peters , Drew Eckhardt , chat@freebsd.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Right about now I'm SICK of seeing this thread come up. Didn't someone urge/agree to move this to -chat? On Sat, 23 Dec 2000, Alex Belits wrote: > On Sun, 24 Dec 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > To be pedantic, you only need to provide source for works derived > > > from GPL'd software which in this case means the kernel propper. User > > > land applications and device drivers may be shipped in binary-only > > > form because they are separate works, even when distributed in > > > aggregation with GPL'd software. > > > > That depends on the type of "aggregation". If you produce a single-purpose > > device, like an "internet radio", the entire device has a single purpose, > > therefore every part of the device is "derived from" every other part. > > WTF are you talking about? Derived work is the result of modification of > the original, not just something dependent on its functionality. > > > That > > means, if you use GPL'ed software in such a device, you have to provide > > source for every line of code, and perhaps schematics or gerbers for the > > circuits and VHDL for your ASICs as well. > > This is simply not true -- unless your hardware is the result of > modification of GPL'ed program, something that I don't expect to see any > soon, as so far no hardware ever was GPL'ed in the first place. > > > Doesn't that just make you want to run out and stuff Linux in your multi- > > million development dollar routing switch now? > > No, it just makes me wonder, what is the purpose of those ridiculous > claims. > > -- > Alex > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! > -- Anonymous Coward Bosko Milekic bmilekic@technokratis.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message