From owner-freebsd-java Sun Dec 31 8: 4:32 2000 From owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 31 08:04:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-java@freebsd.org Received: from cypherpunks.ai (cypherpunks.ai [209.88.68.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16C6737B400 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 08:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from grolsch.ai (grolsch.ai [209.88.68.214]) by cypherpunks.ai (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D01949; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:04:28 -0400 (AST) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:04:28 -0400 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" To: behanna@zbzoom.net, FreeBSD-Java Subject: Re: Port for the Orion Server (J2EE Application Server) Message-ID: <759230000.978278668@grolsch.ai> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.6b2 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Saturday, December 30, 2000 19:50:07 -0500 Chris BeHanna wrote: > On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > >>> [...] >> >> Being responsible for a number of open source Java libraries I strongly >> prefer that a port does a binary install. > > With (almost?) all ports, you have always had the option of > grabbing the precompiled package and doing > > pkg_add > > instead of cd'ing to the ports area and doing > > make install > > I strongly believe that this model should be followed for Java as well > as for C/C++. Uhm. You have not addressed any of the concerns expressed in the mail you are responding to. Nor do you provide any arguments in favor of your strong belief. Cheers, Jeroen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Dec 31 8:24:39 2000 From owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 31 08:24:37 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-java@freebsd.org Received: from topperwein.dyndns.org (acs-24-154-28-99.zoominternet.net [24.154.28.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFA0B37B402 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 08:24:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from browning.pennasoft.com (browning [192.168.168.11]) by topperwein.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBVGPYP44882 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:25:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from behanna@zbzoom.net) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:25:34 -0500 (EST) From: Chris BeHanna Sender: behanna@browning.pennasoft.com Reply-To: behanna@zbzoom.net To: FreeBSD-Java Subject: Re: Port for the Orion Server (J2EE Application Server) In-Reply-To: <759230000.978278668@grolsch.ai> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > --On Saturday, December 30, 2000 19:50:07 -0500 Chris BeHanna > wrote: > > > On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > > > >>> [...] > >> > >> Being responsible for a number of open source Java libraries I strongly > >> prefer that a port does a binary install. > > > > With (almost?) all ports, you have always had the option of > > grabbing the precompiled package and doing > > > > pkg_add > > > > instead of cd'ing to the ports area and doing > > > > make install > > > > I strongly believe that this model should be followed for Java as well > > as for C/C++. > > Uhm. You have not addressed any of the concerns expressed in the mail you > are responding to. Nor do you provide any arguments in favor of your strong > belief. The argument is simple: those who want jars can grab them via the pkg_add method. Those who want source can use the make install method. This is completely consistent with the existing ports model and requires no change in practice. -- Chris BeHanna Software Engineer behanna@bogus.zbzoom.net Remove "bogus" before responding. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Dec 31 9:27:22 2000 From owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 31 09:27:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-java@freebsd.org Received: from cypherpunks.ai (cypherpunks.ai [209.88.68.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A640A37B400 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 09:27:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from grolsch.ai (grolsch.ai [209.88.68.214]) by cypherpunks.ai (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CEC949; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 13:27:16 -0400 (AST) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 13:27:16 -0400 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" To: behanna@zbzoom.net, FreeBSD-Java Subject: Re: Port for the Orion Server (J2EE Application Server) Message-ID: <818090000.978283636@grolsch.ai> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.6b2 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Sunday, December 31, 2000 11:25:34 -0500 Chris BeHanna wrote: > On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > >> --On Saturday, December 30, 2000 19:50:07 -0500 Chris BeHanna >> wrote: >> >> > On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: >> > >> >>> [...] >> >> >> >> Being responsible for a number of open source Java libraries I >> >> strongly prefer that a port does a binary install. >> > >> > With (almost?) all ports, you have always had the option of >> > grabbing the precompiled package and doing >> > >> > pkg_add >> > >> > instead of cd'ing to the ports area and doing >> > >> > make install >> > >> > I strongly believe that this model should be followed for Java as well >> > as for C/C++. >> >> Uhm. You have not addressed any of the concerns expressed in the mail >> you are responding to. Nor do you provide any arguments in favor of >> your strong belief. > > The argument is simple: those who want jars can grab them via the > pkg_add method. Those who want source can use the make install > method. This is completely consistent with the existing ports model > and requires no change in practice. As outlined in my mail: what you propose may be difficult (point 2b), not possible (point 1), inappropriate (point 3) or inconvenient (point 2abc). Keep in mind that Java and C/C++ are fundamentally different. Most C programs are shipped in source form and the user is expected to ./configure, make, make install. The ports system naturally matches and automates this process. Java programs on the other hand are mostly shipped as precompiled jars (i.e. binary) and the end-user is not expected to use the source except for reference purposes and/or for contributing. The Jakarta webpage says: "We make the actual source code available for anyone to use. In general, the source code is meant for developers who want to "hack" in order to integrate Servlets and JSP into other products." and "In general, binaries are meant for developers who want to use the Servlet and JavaServer Pages technologies (versus those who want to "hack" the technologies in order to integrate them into other products)." This suggests that installing the binary is exactly what should be done: ports are for end-user deployment, not for development. Incidentally, this is exactly what most (if not all) Java ports do currently: install the binary. More generally: the ports system should be adapted to the applications it is used for, not the other way around. Cheers, Jeroen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Dec 31 11:54:31 2000 From owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 31 11:54:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-java@freebsd.org Received: from crewsoft.com (ns.aenet.net [157.22.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A012037B400 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:54:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [63.206.193.161] (HELO wireless-networks.com) by crewsoft.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.3b5) with ESMTP id 394112; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:56:55 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4F8F02.4F8CFD51@wireless-networks.com> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:54:43 -0800 From: Cedric Berger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Palle Girgensohn Cc: Ernst de Haan , "Koster, K.J." , FreeBSD Java mailing list Subject: Re: Port for the Orion Server (J2EE Application Server) References: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E4522026D7ADA@L04> <20001229144659.A24968@c187104187.telekabel.chello.nl> <3A4E0D67.BF6586CF@partitur.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Palle Girgensohn wrote: > > Well, but -in the FreeBSD spirit- we will download the source files, which > > need to be compiled before we get a JAR. We could let the port download the > > JAR file, but I would not prefer this. I say we use our processor to do what > > it does best: Processing!!!!! ;) Let's give this beast something to do! > > Agree. Also, when an important patch surfaces, it is easy to > apply it to the port. Well, in Java, there is now an official way to 'patch' a jar file. it's called a "jardiff" file, mime: "application/jardiff". http://java.sun.com/products/javawebstart/jnlp-1_0-spec.pdf In java, we must not forget that a jar file is not really a binary. it's a 'pre-compiled' file, halfway between sources and binary. The 'binary' only exists in memory after the JIT. I strongly object exercising the user processor, memory (try running javadoc on a 32M system), harddrive (to install compilers, etc, ... when not required) and patience just for the fun of it. Cedric To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Dec 31 12: 1:16 2000 From owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 31 12:01:13 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-java@freebsd.org Received: from crewsoft.com (ns.aenet.net [157.22.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E04D37B400 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [63.206.193.161] (HELO wireless-networks.com) by crewsoft.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.3b5) with ESMTP id 394114; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:03:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4F9098.E23D6E72@wireless-networks.com> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:01:28 -0800 From: Cedric Berger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" Cc: Sean Kelly , Ernst de Haan , "Koster, K.J." , FreeBSD Java mailing list Subject: Re: Port for the Orion Server (J2EE Application Server) References: <296590000.978193425@grolsch.ai> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Let me add another reason not to recompile jar files: Sometimes, you need do distribute a *signed* jar file. You certainly don't want to distribute your private keys, and requiring everybody to have a certificate will probably make Verisign happy, but probably not the users. Cedric > >> Well, but -in the FreeBSD spirit- we will download the source > >> files, which need to be compiled before we get a JAR. > > > > Should that really be the approach (or "spirit," if you prefer) > > when it comes to Java programs? Most third-party APIs and > > applications in Java usually come in precompiled .jar files > > ready to use (since most of them are hand-built or are the > > product of some awful Windows-based IDE), and I've really > > gotten used to just tossing those .jar files in my > > $JAVA_HOME/jre/lib/ext directory and going (possibly throwing > > all caution to the wind, at least until signed jars are more > > prevalent) with no time wasted. (Yes, just the problem ant > > solves ... say ... what about bsd.ant.mk? :-) > > > > Moreover, when I'm installing a port, I'll often just use the > > package form of it instead of building the port, since it's > > much faster (for me, at least) to download a precompiled beast > > than to wait for something to build. > > > > What are other's thoughts? > > Being responsible for a number of open source Java libraries I strongly > prefer that a port does a binary install. I have a couple of reasons for > this: > > 1. The user may not have a Java compiler installed. Unlike C/C++ > this is a workable situation because Java program should never > require a recompile for configuration purposes. > > 2a. Compiling of a package may be very tricky. Some of my 100% > pure Java projects will not compile with a Sun javac because > the Sun javac compiler is buggy. > > 2b. Compiling the Cryptix JCE project requires the triple of Sun > JDK 1.1.8, Sun JDK 1.2.x and Jikes to be installed. > > 2c. Bottom line is that you can't write-once, compile-anywhere > for some projects. > > 3. I am unable to give support for packages that I did not compile > myself. I just don't have enough time to waste. The source (BSD > license in general) is available for trouble-shooting and for > those who want to contribute. > > The bottom line is that Java != C/C++ and the rules that apply to > C/C++ do not carry over when it comes to binary vs. source. > > Of course, the source -if available- ought to be installed alongside > the binary bits. > > My EC$ 0.02 + HTH + Cheers, > Jeroen > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Dec 31 15:26:48 2000 From owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 31 15:26:44 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-java@freebsd.org Received: from topperwein.dyndns.org (acs-24-154-28-99.zoominternet.net [24.154.28.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA7C37B400 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 15:26:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from topperwein.dyndns.org (topperwein.dyndns.org [192.168.168.10]) by topperwein.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBVNRiP45510 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 18:27:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from behanna@zbzoom.net) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 18:27:44 -0500 (EST) From: Chris BeHanna Sender: behanna@zbzoom.net Reply-To: behanna@zbzoom.net To: FreeBSD-Java Subject: Re: Port for the Orion Server (J2EE Application Server) In-Reply-To: <818090000.978283636@grolsch.ai> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > --On Sunday, December 31, 2000 11:25:34 -0500 Chris BeHanna > wrote: > > > On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > > > >> --On Saturday, December 30, 2000 19:50:07 -0500 Chris BeHanna > >> wrote: > >> > >> > On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > >> > > >> >>> [...] > >> >> > >> >> Being responsible for a number of open source Java libraries I > >> >> strongly prefer that a port does a binary install. > >> > > >> > With (almost?) all ports, you have always had the option of > >> > grabbing the precompiled package and doing > >> > > >> > pkg_add > >> > > >> > instead of cd'ing to the ports area and doing > >> > > >> > make install > >> > > >> > I strongly believe that this model should be followed for Java as well > >> > as for C/C++. > >> > >> Uhm. You have not addressed any of the concerns expressed in the mail > >> you are responding to. Nor do you provide any arguments in favor of > >> your strong belief. > > > > The argument is simple: those who want jars can grab them via the > > pkg_add method. Those who want source can use the make install > > method. This is completely consistent with the existing ports model > > and requires no change in practice. > > As outlined in my mail: what you propose may be difficult (point 2b), not > possible (point 1), inappropriate (point 3) or inconvenient (point 2abc). These points can be addressed by: 1) Crafting a port that builds without handholding; and 2) Setting port dependencies appropriately. > Keep in mind that Java and C/C++ are fundamentally different. Most C > programs are shipped in source form and the user is expected to > ./configure, make, make install. The ports system naturally matches and > automates this process. > > Java programs on the other hand are mostly shipped as precompiled jars > (i.e. binary) and the end-user is not expected to use the source except for > reference purposes and/or for contributing. Nothing prevents you or anyone from shipping jars in a tarball that is installed via pkg_add. > The Jakarta webpage says: > > "We make the actual source code available for anyone to use. In general, > the source code is meant for developers who want to "hack" in order to > integrate Servlets and JSP into other products." > > and > > "In general, binaries are meant for developers who want to use the Servlet > and JavaServer Pages technologies (versus those who want to "hack" the > technologies in order to integrate them into other products)." > > This suggests that installing the binary is exactly what should be done: It *can* be done, via the existing model, by constructing a package that can be downloaded and added via pkg_add. > ports are for end-user deployment, not for development. Incidentally, this > is exactly what most (if not all) Java ports do currently: install the > binary. > > More generally: the ports system should be adapted to the applications it > is used for, not the other way around. I disagree. I doubt we will persuade each other on this point. -- Chris BeHanna Software Engineer behanna@bogus.zbzoom.net Remove "bogus" before responding. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Dec 31 15:31:17 2000 From owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 31 15:31:16 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-java@freebsd.org Received: from topperwein.dyndns.org (acs-24-154-28-99.zoominternet.net [24.154.28.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1F6837B400 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 15:31:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from topperwein.dyndns.org (topperwein.dyndns.org [192.168.168.10]) by topperwein.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBVNWHP45526 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 18:32:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from behanna@zbzoom.net) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 18:32:17 -0500 (EST) From: Chris BeHanna Sender: behanna@zbzoom.net Reply-To: behanna@zbzoom.net To: FreeBSD-Java Subject: Re: Port for the Orion Server (J2EE Application Server) In-Reply-To: <3A4F9098.E23D6E72@wireless-networks.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, Cedric Berger wrote: > Let me add another reason not to recompile jar files: > > Sometimes, you need do distribute a *signed* jar file. > You certainly don't want to distribute your private keys, > and requiring everybody to have a certificate will > probably make Verisign happy, but probably not the users. So put a warning in the documentation for the port, that only the precompiled *package* will have the signed jar. -- Chris BeHanna Software Engineer behanna@bogus.zbzoom.net Remove "bogus" before responding. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Dec 31 15:48:54 2000 From owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 31 15:48:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-java@freebsd.org Received: from geeba.net (unknown [63.170.231.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22A4037B400 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 15:48:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from cumin (cumin.rosetta.zon [172.16.16.106]) by geeba.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id PAA40871; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 15:48:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kelly@ad1440.net) Message-ID: <036b01c07384$3a580c20$6a1010ac@rosetta.zon> From: "Sean Kelly" To: , "FreeBSD-Java" References: Subject: Re: Port for the Orion Server (J2EE Application Server) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 15:48:51 -0800 Organization: Independent Consultant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So put a warning in the documentation for the port, that only the > precompiled *package* will have the signed jar. But, if I understand correctly, packages are just built from ports ("make package"). And if the port won't have signed jars, then package won't either (however silly signing open-source software sounds). --Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-java Sun Dec 31 20:19:31 2000 From owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 31 20:19:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-java@freebsd.org Received: from topperwein.dyndns.org (acs-24-154-28-99.zoominternet.net [24.154.28.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA2437B400 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 20:19:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from browning.pennasoft.com (browning [192.168.168.11]) by topperwein.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f014KWP45977 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 2000 23:20:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from behanna@zbzoom.net) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 23:20:35 -0500 (EST) From: Chris BeHanna Sender: behanna@browning.pennasoft.com Reply-To: behanna@zbzoom.net To: FreeBSD-Java Subject: Re: Port for the Orion Server (J2EE Application Server) In-Reply-To: <036b01c07384$3a580c20$6a1010ac@rosetta.zon> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, Sean Kelly wrote: > > So put a warning in the documentation for the port, that only the > > precompiled *package* will have the signed jar. > > But, if I understand correctly, packages are just built > from ports ("make package"). And if the port won't > have signed jars, then package won't either (however > silly signing open-source software sounds). Hmm...perhaps a port that pulls the signed jars or the source, depending upon the make target chosen. I could get behind that. Ultimately, it's not my decision. This is just my input to the process. -- Chris BeHanna Software Engineer behanna@bogus.zbzoom.net Remove "bogus" before responding. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message