From owner-freebsd-qa Sun Jan 30 12:25:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from spoon.beta.com (h00a0242f177e.ne.mediaone.net [24.218.8.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81CDA15373 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:25:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mcgovern@spoon.beta.com) Received: from spoon.beta.com (mcgovern@localhost.beta.com [127.0.0.1]) by spoon.beta.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03395 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:24:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mcgovern@spoon.beta.com) Message-Id: <200001302024.PAA03395@spoon.beta.com> To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Subject: 4.0-RELEASE test cycle started... Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:24:42 -0500 From: "Brian J. McGovern" Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey, everyone. Looks like its time to start concentrating effort on 4.0 testing. Lets get busy! -Brian >Dear committers, > >As previously scheduled, we are now in code freeze on the -current >(HEAD) source tree. The ports and doc trees are unaffected by this >announcement, as it is up to Satoshi and Nik to decide when and if >to declare their own freeze dates. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 8:22: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from melete.ch.intel.com (melete.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3ABA37B78B; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 08:22:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by melete.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.19 2000/01/29 00:15:43 dmccart Exp $) with ESMTP id QAA18213; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:23:05 GMT Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.10 2000/02/10 21:38:16 steved Exp $) with ESMTP id JAA23539; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:21:59 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id LAA09790; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:21:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: hip186.ch.intel.com: jreynold set sender to jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com using -f From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14508.8230.213769.821490@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:21:58 -0700 (MST) To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 20.3.11 Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG OK folks, here's some feedback on 4.0-RC2 from somebody who hasn't done a CD install in a while ... I got my new HDD in last night, put her in the machine and let it rip. Here's the things I found that either puzzled me or might stand a bit of enhancement before RC2->RELEASE. o As I've seen other people mention, there was a considerable delay while waiting for the kernel to get done probing IDE disks. This new disk I got was a Quantum Fireball and the ATA code detected it and used UDMA33 without a hitch. However after the probe message: ata0 at 0x01f0 irq 14 on ata-pci0 the kernel "sat there" for 30-50 seconds. I know I've read this is "needed per the spec" but it would be much less mysterious if a message could be printed before that wait had to happen (much like the scsi subsystem when the bus is reset). I didn't see anything in the FAQ about this, but I'm sure it will become one soon ... o label, partition, and dist. extraction went without a hitch! o I then chose the option of doing "final configuration" (or whatever sysinstall says) where it allows you to pick packages, set root's password, etc. After I picked the packages I wanted to be installed, I hit the "Install" button and things proceeded to install with no hitches--however, it seemed that randomly (because I couldn't pick out any pattern to it) the screen would flash back to the "FreeBSD Configuration Menu" as it cycled through new packages to install. The gray dialog that shows which package is being installed would show this info, then disappear, the "FreeBSD Configuration Menu" would reappear for about 1/5 of a second, then the gray box would show up again with a new package name as it was installed. Now, I haven't done a raw CD install for about a year, but I can't say that I remember that behavior. What I remember is the gray box staying up continuously while all the packages were installed. The constant "flashing" between "gray box on blue" to "FreeBSD Configuration Menu" and back was a little wierd. Everything was physically installed correctly, but it's one of those "polishing" things that would make the install look "better" (IMHO of course ...). o I then tried to configure X. I think sysinstall needs to present a dialog before running the GUI X configure program saying that there is a good chance that the mouse won't work in the GUI program. It should then explain that if you did choose to configure moused (and moused was started by sysinstall at that point--I assume) that you should choose /dev/sysmouse and hit "a" to "apply" the changes so the mouse is found. Equivalently, if you have a ps/2 mouse and are not running moused, choose /dev/psm0 and then hit "a" to apply the changes. I'll be the first to admit that in all the previous times I've configured X on a new machine, I didn't RTFM the on-screen text from the X GUI and didn't hit the 'apply' button (until the run last night). My mistake, but I think it might be a common enough one for sysinstall to specifically say something about it. If you disagree with that point, at least consider having sysinstall direct the user to which device file to point to if his/her mouse isn't recognized. If you were a brand new user to FreeBSD, would you know that /dev/psm0 is to be used for ps/2 mice when not running moused? If you were a brand new user to FreeBSD, would you know that if you did configure and run moused that /dev/sysmouse is the device you should point to? I think not. o The configuration of GNOME+E. worked. However, I had to manually put "gnome-session" in my .xinitrc file. It seems to me that a more "friendly" install would be one where if you chose KDE or GNOME+ that it asks you which accounts you want to setup and does the appropriate things. That way, the first time the new user reboots, logs in, and types "startx" he/she goes into the windowing environment that he/she chose in sysinstall. If I were a completely new user to FreeBSD, I wouldn't have known to put gnome-session in my .xinitrc in order to get it to work. I would have fired up X and saw the ugly-as-sin twm setup that comes with X and thought to myself "boy, GNOME sure is ugly and worthless...". It's a small thing, sure, but a gigantic thing to new-comers. o Finally, again, it seems to me that the skeleton .cshrc, .profile, etc. files that are used for accounts creating during install should have the following variables set: setenv LC_ALL en_US.ISO_8859-1 setenv LC_CTYPE en_US.ISO_8859-1 setenv LANG en_US.ISO_8859-1 (to whatever values are appropriate--this could even be asked if not guessed correctly from the time zone info). Lots of the GNOME/GTK stuff that I installed and ran complained that "LOCALE could not be set" (or whatever--I'm not at the machine and am paraphrasing--those who know what the above variables are for know the error I'm talking about when you don't have them set). When I went to compile a custom kernel, some perl scripts used at the beginning of "make depend" complained about the same lack of these variables. Everything else seemed ok and very speedy. I tweaked rc.conf values to add my default route, NFS, blah blah blah and it all worked A-OK like my 3.4 machine (connecting and routine through my 3.4-S gateway). No problems there! All in all, I think most of the things I experienced last night were "cosmetic" in nature--however, if they could be polished away, it would make for a *completely* bullet-proof and awesome install experience--especially for a new user coming to FreeBSD for the first time. "I'm John, and this has been my Report." -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds WCCG, CCE, Higher Levels of Abstraction | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 602-868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 9: 8: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from polaris.we.lc.ehu.es (polaris.we.lc.ehu.es [158.227.6.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A3EB37B7AF; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:07:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jose@we.lc.ehu.es) Received: from we.lc.ehu.es (v-ger [158.227.6.179]) by polaris.we.lc.ehu.es (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA29417; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:01:34 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <38AC296B.37D39240@we.lc.ehu.es> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:01:31 +0100 From: "Jose M. Alcaide" Organization: Universidad del =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pa=EDs?= Vasco - Dpto. de Electricidad y =?iso-8859-1?Q?Electr=F3nica?= X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: es-ES, es, en-US, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Reynolds~ Cc: freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 References: <14508.8230.213769.821490@hip186.ch.intel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Reynolds~ wrote: > > o Finally, again, it seems to me that the skeleton .cshrc, .profile, > etc. files that are used for accounts creating during install should have the > following variables set: > > setenv LC_ALL en_US.ISO_8859-1 > setenv LC_CTYPE en_US.ISO_8859-1 > setenv LANG en_US.ISO_8859-1 > I agree: this would be very useful specially for non-US users. But instead of modifying .cshrc, .profile, etc. for each account, I think that adding the capabilities lang=xx_YY.ISO_8859-ZZ:\ charset=ISO_8859-ZZ: to the "default" entry in /etc/login.conf (or maybe to the "me" entry in .login_conf for each account) would be a better approach. But I would left this improvement for 4.1-RELEASE :) -- JMA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- José Mª Alcaide | mailto:jose@we.lc.ehu.es Universidad del País Vasco | mailto:jmas@FreeBSD.org Dpto. de Electricidad y Electrónica | http://www.we.lc.ehu.es/~jose Facultad de Ciencias - Campus de Lejona | Tel.: +34-946012479 48940 Lejona (Vizcaya) - SPAIN | Fax: +34-946013071 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Beware of Programmers who carry screwdrivers" -- Leonard Brandwein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 9:26: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from pan.ch.intel.com (pan.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AD9D37B7A4 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:26:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by pan.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.19 2000/01/29 00:15:43 dmccart Exp $) with ESMTP id KAA29467 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:25:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.10 2000/02/10 21:38:16 steved Exp $) with ESMTP id KAA07314 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:25:59 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-To: X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id MAA12176; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:25:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: hip186.ch.intel.com: jreynold set sender to jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com using -f From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14508.12070.452969.605772@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:25:58 -0700 (MST) To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 In-Reply-To: <38AC296B.37D39240@we.lc.ehu.es> References: <14508.8230.213769.821490@hip186.ch.intel.com> <38AC296B.37D39240@we.lc.ehu.es> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 20.3.11 Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ On Thursday, February 17, Jose M. Alcaide wrote: ] > > I agree: this would be very useful specially for non-US users. But > instead of modifying .cshrc, .profile, etc. for each account, I think > that adding the capabilities > > lang=xx_YY.ISO_8859-ZZ:\ > charset=ISO_8859-ZZ: > > to the "default" entry in /etc/login.conf (or maybe to the "me" entry > in .login_conf for each account) would be a better approach. But I > would left this improvement for 4.1-RELEASE :) Or how about even in /etc/csh.cshrc and /etc/profile? I see in my default /etc/profile that the variables are there (for example): # LANG=it_IT.ISO_8859-1; export LANG but they are commented out. In the /etc/csh.cshrc there is nothing. These files would be as good a place as any to give these env. variables to all users, yes? -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds WCCG, CCE, Higher Levels of Abstraction | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 602-868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 9:54: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC84337B75C; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:53:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07330; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:52:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: John Reynolds~ Cc: freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:21:58 MST." <14508.8230.213769.821490@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:52:35 -0800 Message-ID: <7327.950809955@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > "Install" button and things proceeded to install with no hitches--however, i t > seemed that randomly (because I couldn't pick out any pattern to it) the > screen would flash back to the "FreeBSD Configuration Menu" as it cycled > through new packages to install. The gray dialog that shows which package is Fixed this last night. > o I then tried to configure X. I think sysinstall needs to present a dialog > before running the GUI X configure program saying that there is a good chanc e > that the mouse won't work in the GUI program. It should then explain that if Hmmm. Odd, I've always noted the opposite. If you do the novice install (which everyone should if they're trying to test the "typical case"), the mouse working properly is the typical case. > o The configuration of GNOME+E. worked. However, I had to manually put > "gnome-session" in my .xinitrc file. It seems to me that a more "friendly" How did you install and configure GNOME+E? I just tried a fresh install and selected it off the desktop menu and it worked just fine, exactly as you say you'd like it to work. > o Finally, again, it seems to me that the skeleton .cshrc, .profile, > etc. files that are used for accounts creating during install should have th e > following variables set: > > setenv LC_ALL en_US.ISO_8859-1 > setenv LC_CTYPE en_US.ISO_8859-1 > setenv LANG en_US.ISO_8859-1 This is a question for the I18N folks; I don't even try to puzzle out the various quirks of locale settings these days. :) > "I'm John, and this has been my Report." Thanks! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 9:55:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from pan.ch.intel.com (pan.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C28037B6C6; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:55:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by pan.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.19 2000/01/29 00:15:43 dmccart Exp $) with ESMTP id KAA07230; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:55:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.10 2000/02/10 21:38:16 steved Exp $) with ESMTP id KAA14101; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:55:39 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id MAA13651; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:55:39 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: hip186.ch.intel.com: jreynold set sender to jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com using -f From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14508.13850.725857.718236@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:55:38 -0700 (MST) To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: question regarding root_disk_unit ... X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 20.3.11 Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello all, Aside from the feedback on the install of 4.0-RC2 I gave earlier this morning, I have a few related questions to things I saw after putting my machine "back the way it was." Before I installed the new EIDE HDD, my machine had two scsi disks on an aic controller. The root partition is da0s2a. I had previously unconnected the scsi disks when installing 4.0-RC2 on the new HDD because I wanted absolutely no chance of hosing anything on this -STABLE box (I'm not quite ready yet to "take the plunge" :). So, after I install 4.0-RC2 and write down everything for my report earlier, I tried to reboot back into 3.4-S. When I rebooted, chose "F5" to get to the scsi disk's boot options, chose "F2" (since I dual-boot with Ebola '98) and it proceeded to boot 3.4-S. However, things got confused and I received a panic, error 22, cannot mount root (2). I remembered seeing messages like this flying in current-digest and 10 minutes of reading the "help" stuff within the boot loader led me to figure out to say "set root_disk_unit=0" at the boot prompt and put that variable in my /boot/loader.conf for future use. No problem. My question is, is root_disk_unit set for somebody in /boot/loader.conf during an install if there is a chance of things being confused (i.e. IDE and scsi disks in a machine such as mine)? I think I remember somebody saying that they were putting that code into either sysinstall or something so that machines with this disk configuration (or wierder ones) would happily boot after exiting sysinstall. My install was flawless simply because I yanked the scsi disks out of the machine before proceeding. Comments? Also, a non-related-to-freebsd question (but I know somebody will have the answer), the root_disk_unit=0 thing fixed me up for booting FreeBSD off my scsi disk, but when I tried to boot Ebola '98 with the F1 option (also located on da0, da0s1) it just "sat there" ... I assume this is confusion on its part because there is a new disk in the system and Ebola '98 is too stupid to do the Right Thing(tm)? Anybody experienced this behavior with a dual-boot system after adding an IDE disk to what was an an all-scsi disk system? Thanks, -Jr ps: Again, kudos to all contributors to 4.0! It looks very, very good. We just need to do some "polishing" around the corners and it'll be as shiny as a new dime! -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds WCCG, CCE, Higher Levels of Abstraction | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 602-868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 10:12:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from pan.ch.intel.com (pan.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B8EB37B6F8 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:12:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by pan.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.19 2000/01/29 00:15:43 dmccart Exp $) with ESMTP id LAA11132; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:12:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.10 2000/02/10 21:38:16 steved Exp $) with ESMTP id LAA18382; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:12:13 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id NAA14480; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:12:12 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: hip186.ch.intel.com: jreynold set sender to jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com using -f From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14508.14844.27563.348804@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:12:12 -0700 (MST) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 In-Reply-To: <7327.950809955@zippy.cdrom.com> References: <14508.8230.213769.821490@hip186.ch.intel.com> <7327.950809955@zippy.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 20.3.11 Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ On Thursday, February 17, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: ] > > Fixed this last night. cool. > Hmmm. Odd, I've always noted the opposite. If you do the novice install > (which everyone should if they're trying to test the "typical case"), the > mouse working properly is the typical case. Rats. I should have said I did a "custom install". I've never used the "novice install option." Here's some more info regarding the mouse. As I said before it is a MouseMan+ ps/2 mouse. I know from experience that I cannot run moused and get the "wheel" events to be seen by X. So, I don't run moused on my -stable box. Therefore, I chose not to have sysinstall "setup the mouse." When I got to the step of "configuring X" (running X's GUI setup--I can't remember its contrived name...), the mouse was completely frozen. Only when I used the keyboard to tab over to the appropriate place, type "/dev/psm0," TAB off that dialog and hit "a" (to apply the change) did the mouse respond. After I did this, the GUI X config went perfectly. I've had this happen before when I installed 3.0 on this same machine last year around this time. Except then, I was too stupid to hit "a" to apply the change and I just hacked up a XF86Config file by hand ... In the "novice" case, does sysinstall run moused? If so, does the X GUI install look for /dev/sysmouse by default (I can't remember ... not near the machine to try it now). If so, maybe that's why the "novice" one works. I just didn't pick that because I knew I didn't want to run moused..... > How did you install and configure GNOME+E? I just tried a fresh install > and selected it off the desktop menu and it worked just fine, exactly as > you say you'd like it to work. Yeah, that's all I did. I just chose the "GNOME+E" menu and it told me "I'm installing things" and that was it. However, when I finished configuring the system, rebooted, logged in as "me" and typed "startx" I got twm. There was no .xinitrc. ? Once I added gnome-session to a .xinitrc file everything worked beautifully with GNOME + E. > This is a question for the I18N folks; I don't even try to puzzle out > the various quirks of locale settings these days. :) Well, perhaps at the very LEAST we could put skeletons of what needs to be set, commented out in /etc/profile and /etc/csh.cshrc and put a mention of "setup your correct locale settings by editing one of these files" in the default /etc/motd? And, maybe a mention of doing that very thing could be given as a dialog in sysinstall ... I dunno ... I just know that the variables need to be set somewhere so that new users don't get freaked when they see lots of warnings from GTK/Glib/Perl/etc. stuff.... At the very least, I'll send in patches to these two files to -doc tonight ... > Thanks! > > - Jordan No problem! I gotta contribute where I can ;-) Do you think there will be a 4.0-RC 3 ISO before -RELEASE is officially rolled? I'm leaving this new HDD that I did the install on last night "open" for a while. If there is another one, I will be most happy to download, burn, and re-install. -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds WCCG, CCE, Higher Levels of Abstraction | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 602-868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 10:35:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 232E937B7DC for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:35:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00361; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:34:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: John Reynolds~ Cc: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:12:12 MST." <14508.14844.27563.348804@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:34:41 -0800 Message-ID: <358.950812481@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I got to the step of "configuring X" (running X's GUI setup--I can't remember > its contrived name...), the mouse was completely frozen. Only when I used the > keyboard to tab over to the appropriate place, type "/dev/psm0," TAB off that > dialog and hit "a" (to apply the change) did the mouse respond. After I did > this, the GUI X config went perfectly. That's a well-known fact and something which is decribed in XFree86's annoying pop-up window about mouse behavior. You're just not reading again, son. :) > In the "novice" case, does sysinstall run moused? If so, does the X GUI Yes. > install look for /dev/sysmouse by default (I can't remember ... not near the Yes. > Yeah, that's all I did. I just chose the "GNOME+E" menu and it told me "I'm > installing things" and that was it. However, when I finished configuring the > system, rebooted, logged in as "me" and typed "startx" I got twm. There was n Ah, it only does it as root. For some reason the skeleton files still aren't being utilized properly and this is something I've still to investigate. It has, at least, always been this way. :) > Well, perhaps at the very LEAST we could put skeletons of what needs to be > set I don't disagree on this, I just see a lot of variance in opinion concerning "what needs to be set." As far as another release candidate is concerned, yes, most assuredly there will be at least one or two more. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 10:46:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD5E37B6C6; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:46:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA59070; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:45:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200002171845.NAA59070@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <14508.8230.213769.821490@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:45:17 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: John Reynolds~ Subject: RE: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 17-Feb-00 John Reynolds~ wrote: > > OK folks, here's some feedback on 4.0-RC2 from somebody who hasn't done a CD > install in a while ... I got my new HDD in last night, put her in the machine > and let it rip. Here's the things I found that either puzzled me or might > stand a bit of enhancement before RC2->RELEASE. > > o As I've seen other people mention, there was a considerable delay while > waiting for the kernel to get done probing IDE disks. This new disk I got was > a Quantum Fireball and the ATA code detected it and used UDMA33 without a > hitch. However after the probe message: > > ata0 at 0x01f0 irq 14 on ata-pci0 > > the kernel "sat there" for 30-50 seconds. I know I've read this is "needed > per the spec" but it would be much less mysterious if a message could be > printed before that wait had to happen (much like the scsi subsystem when the > bus is reset). I didn't see anything in the FAQ about this, but I'm sure it > will become one soon ... Soren's been bugged about this, bug him some more. :) > o I then tried to configure X. I think sysinstall needs to present a dialog [ snip ] Hmm, it used to say something to that effect a while back. > o The configuration of GNOME+E. worked. However, I had to manually put > "gnome-session" in my .xinitrc file. It seems to me that a more "friendly" > install would be one where if you chose KDE or GNOME+ that it asks > you which accounts you want to setup and does the appropriate things. That > way, the first time the new user reboots, logs in, and types "startx" he/she > goes into the windowing environment that he/she chose in sysinstall. If I > were a completely new user to FreeBSD, I wouldn't have known to put > gnome-session in my .xinitrc in order to get it to work. I would have fired > up X and saw the ugly-as-sin twm setup that comes with X and thought to > myself "boy, GNOME sure is ugly and worthless...". It's a small thing, sure, > but a gigantic thing to new-comers. It modifies root's setup and the setup in /usr/share/skel. Note that since sysinstall must run as root, it can't possibly know what username you are using. If you do the Desktop configuration before adding new users, then it will DTRT. If you are prompted to add new users in the Novice install before you do the X Desktop setup, then the order of those two things may need to be switched around. > o Finally, again, it seems to me that the skeleton .cshrc, .profile, > etc. files that are used for accounts creating during install should have the > following variables set: > > setenv LC_ALL en_US.ISO_8859-1 > setenv LC_CTYPE en_US.ISO_8859-1 > setenv LANG en_US.ISO_8859-1 Then submit patches to the /usr/share/skel files in a PR. I'm not sure where they are in the src tree, maybe src/share/skel. > (to whatever values are appropriate--this could even be asked if not guessed > correctly from the time zone info). Lots of the GNOME/GTK stuff that I > installed and ran complained that "LOCALE could not be set" (or whatever--I'm > not at the machine and am paraphrasing--those who know what the above > variables are for know the error I'm talking about when you don't have them > set). When I went to compile a custom kernel, some perl scripts used at the > beginning of "make depend" complained about the same lack of these variables. LC_ALL=LC_CTYPE=LANG=C might be a good default. > Everything else seemed ok and very speedy. I tweaked rc.conf values to add my > default route, NFS, blah blah blah and it all worked A-OK like my 3.4 machine > (connecting and routine through my 3.4-S gateway). No problems there! > > All in all, I think most of the things I experienced last night were > "cosmetic" in nature--however, if they could be polished away, it would make > for a *completely* bullet-proof and awesome install experience--especially for > a new user coming to FreeBSD for the first time. > > "I'm John, and this has been my Report." Thanks. > -Jr -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 12:29:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from storage.network.com (storage.network.com [129.191.1.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51D337B790 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:29:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from millerh@anubis.network.com) Received: from anubis.network.com (anubis.network.com [129.191.18.1]) by storage.network.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10568; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:29:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from comet.network.com (comet.network.com [129.191.87.31]) by anubis.network.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28891; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:29:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost by comet.network.com (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id OAA23322; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:29:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:29:06 -0600 (CST) From: "Hank (Henry) Miller" X-Sender: millerh@comet To: freebsd-qa@freeBSD.org Cc: hank miller Subject: 3.4->4.0 update comments Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG attempted to update my system from 3.4 to 4.0, and have not had success. Started with CVSUP, make buildworld make buildkernel make installkernel rebooted to single user - so far so good. make installworld This failed with something in install-info. I'm not sure that this isn't something leftover in the CVS tree on my system or a bug, if nobody else sees it I'll assume something myfault. (Unfortunatly it scrolled off the screen as each makefile failed, and I can't remember the process to pile stderr to a file. Went with plan of attack two: build two disks with the feb 14 snapshot. ran out of space on / hmm... deleted all the old kernels around, since they shouldn't work anyway. 4 kernels and a few small misc files, and I'm stuck. Now I'll grant that / is not big on my system (30 meg? more then 20, not more then 35) but / then / shouldn't need to be big. I only used 68% of / before. /usr, /usr/local, and /var are different partitions with plenty of space. (also several non-OS partitions) Are files in / really that much bigger then 3.x? If so it should be documented since I'm sure I'm not the only one with a small / partition. Fortunatly I have a 1 gig partition that is completley unused, I'll spend some time tonight on my partition scheme and then retry the upgrade. -- Henry Miller henry_miller@storagetek.com StorageTek (612) 391 - 1271 www.storagetek.com INFORMATION made POWERFUL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 12:37:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from pan.ch.intel.com (pan.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA9B137B7AF for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:37:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by pan.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.19 2000/01/29 00:15:43 dmccart Exp $) with ESMTP id NAA16609 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:37:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.10 2000/02/10 21:38:16 steved Exp $) with ESMTP id NAA23712 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:37:06 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-To: X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id PAA21087; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:37:06 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: hip186.ch.intel.com: jreynold set sender to jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com using -f From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14508.23537.17216.207130@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:37:05 -0700 (MST) To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 In-Reply-To: <358.950812481@zippy.cdrom.com> References: <14508.14844.27563.348804@hip186.ch.intel.com> <358.950812481@zippy.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 20.3.11 Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ On Thursday, February 17, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: ] > > That's a well-known fact and something which is decribed in XFree86's > annoying pop-up window about mouse behavior. You're just not reading > again, son. :) DOH!!!!!!!!! :/ I concede, Jordan. You're right. RTFM. http://www.xfree86.org/3.3.5/QuickStart3.html#5 However, as I thought about it over lunch, I could still argue the point that under the custom install, maybe sysinstall should still give you a dialog box stating that the mouse might not work. I'm coming at this from the point of view of somebody "new" to Unix and X and wants to try FreeBSD. Maybe they don't know about www.xfree86.org in order to go search FAQs, etc. They just want the GUI that comes with FreeBSD "to work." If we *know* that by choosing a custom install and not enabling moused that XF86Setup has a good chance of not finding the mouse, then I claim it makes sense to present a dialog box before launching the sucker that gives this information. Basically, what you told me ... "RTFM ... you will need to use TAB, blah blah blah, then hit 'a' to apply the changes, then your mouse will be recognized". Perhaps even printing the above URL. If somebody had problems and still couldn't figure it out, maybe they write down the URL and take it to a friend's computer or to work and do a little RTFM'ing on their own. Comments? > Ah, it only does it as root. For some reason the skeleton files still > aren't being utilized properly and this is something I've still to > investigate. It has, at least, always been this way. :) that would be it then ... I didn't fire up X as root, just "me". So, you are saying that this is on the "todo" list? I know you've said sysinstall "needs help" in other mail messages, but is there a specific place to go look in the source? I don't promise miracles, but since I'm the one that brought it up, I'd at least like to try and help fix it .... or, is this something just better "suited for Jordan" (since you're "one" with the code)? > I don't disagree on this, I just see a lot of variance in opinion > concerning "what needs to be set." indeed. I wouldn't have known it either ... when things yacked on me, I just snarfed the setenv's from the mail archives and things have been happy since, so I didn't question it ;-) > As far as another release candidate is concerned, yes, most assuredly > there will be at least one or two more. Good deal. I will install them all. I think this ".0" release will be quite good ..... -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds WCCG, CCE, Higher Levels of Abstraction | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 602-868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 12:50: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from melete.ch.intel.com (melete.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1364D37B7F3; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:49:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by melete.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.19 2000/01/29 00:15:43 dmccart Exp $) with ESMTP id UAA01066; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:51:04 GMT Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.10 2000/02/10 21:38:16 steved Exp $) with ESMTP id NAA26626; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:49:56 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id PAA21642; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:49:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: hip186.ch.intel.com: jreynold set sender to jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com using -f From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14508.24306.459593.102063@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:49:54 -0700 (MST) To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Subject: RE: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 In-Reply-To: <200002171845.NAA59070@server.baldwin.cx> References: <14508.8230.213769.821490@hip186.ch.intel.com> <200002171845.NAA59070@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 20.3.11 Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ On Thursday, February 17, John Baldwin wrote: ] > > > [printing ATA message about "waiting"] > > > Soren's been bugged about this, bug him some more. :) > BUG BUG BUG :) > Hmm, it used to say something to that effect a while back. can't comment. I haven't done a CD install in a looong time. > It modifies root's setup and the setup in /usr/share/skel. Note that since > sysinstall must run as root, it can't possibly know what username you are using. > If you do the Desktop configuration before adding new users, then it will DTRT. > If you are prompted to add new users in the Novice install before you do the X > Desktop setup, then the order of those two things may need to be switched around. OK. That's what happened! I added a new user ("me") before I did the desktop configuration. So, you're saying that it adds a "dot.xinitrc" file in /usr/shar/skel which would be copied to all created accounts? Perhaps something could be added to sysinstall so that the "dot.*" files aren't copied to user accounts until a) after a desktop configuration, or b) sysinstall exits. Or, perhaps safer, if you do a desktop configuration recopy all the dot.* files to all user accounts that were created during that sysinstall session. Seems that would fix the problem ... > Then submit patches to the /usr/share/skel files in a PR. I'm not sure where they > are in the src tree, maybe src/share/skel. Indeed. However, as we were talking about this morning in -qa, is a better spot for these variables /etc/csh.cshrc and /etc/profile? > Thanks. no problem! -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds WCCG, CCE, Higher Levels of Abstraction | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 602-868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 12:50:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32CCA37B814 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:50:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA74197; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:50:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200002172050.PAA74197@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:50:11 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: "Hank (Henry) Miller" Subject: RE: 3.4->4.0 update comments Cc: hank miller , freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 17-Feb-00 Hank (Henry) Miller wrote: > > attempted to update my system from 3.4 to 4.0, and have not had success. > > > Started with CVSUP, > make buildworld > make buildkernel > make installkernel > rebooted to single user - so far so good. > make installworld This failed with something in install-info. I'm not > sure that this isn't something leftover in the CVS tree on my system or a > bug, if nobody else sees it I'll assume something myfault. (Unfortunatly > it scrolled off the screen as each makefile failed, and I can't remember > the process to pile stderr to a file. Just do a make -DNOINFO installworld at this point. It's a known issue. Once that is done, do a full make installworld. Don't forget to update /dev, /etc/fstab, and your boot blocks ('disklabel -B ad0') as well. > Went with plan of attack two: build two disks with the feb 14 snapshot. > ran out of space on / > hmm... deleted all the old kernels around, since they shouldn't work > anyway. 4 kernels and a few small misc files, and I'm stuck. > > Now I'll grant that / is not big on my system (30 meg? more then 20, not > more then 35) but / then / shouldn't need to be big. I only used 68% of / > before. /usr, /usr/local, and /var are different partitions with plenty of > space. (also several non-OS partitions) > > Are files in / really that much bigger then 3.x? If so it should be > documented since I'm sure I'm not the only one with a small / partition. In 3.4, and in -current, the defualt sizes in sysinstall when you use auto defaults for all is 50 meg for /. You were almost done with the upgrade, you only have 2 steps or so to go. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 12:51:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8597937B829 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:51:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA74191; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:50:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200002172050.PAA74191@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <14508.23537.17216.207130@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:50:10 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: John Reynolds~ Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 Cc: freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 17-Feb-00 John Reynolds~ wrote: > > [ On Thursday, February 17, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: ] >> >> That's a well-known fact and something which is decribed in XFree86's >> annoying pop-up window about mouse behavior. You're just not reading >> again, son. :) > > DOH!!!!!!!!! :/ > > I concede, Jordan. You're right. RTFM. > > http://www.xfree86.org/3.3.5/QuickStart3.html#5 > > However, as I thought about it over lunch, I could still argue the point that > under the custom install, maybe sysinstall should still give you a dialog box > stating that the mouse might not work. I'm coming at this from the point of > view of somebody "new" to Unix and X and wants to try FreeBSD. Maybe they [ snip ] If you are new, you use the Novice install. Custom and expert aren't for new users, and it clearly states that on the main menu. Keep that in mind. >> Ah, it only does it as root. For some reason the skeleton files still >> aren't being utilized properly and this is something I've still to >> investigate. It has, at least, always been this way. :) > > that would be it then ... I didn't fire up X as root, just "me". So, you are > saying that this is on the "todo" list? I know you've said sysinstall "needs > help" in other mail messages, but is there a specific place to go look in the > source? I don't promise miracles, but since I'm the one that brought it up, > I'd at least like to try and help fix it .... or, is this something just > better "suited for Jordan" (since you're "one" with the code)? Did you see my question regarding the order you did things? -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 12:59:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from pan.ch.intel.com (pan.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E0F837B80F; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:59:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by pan.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.19 2000/01/29 00:15:43 dmccart Exp $) with ESMTP id NAA21204; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:59:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.10 2000/02/10 21:38:16 steved Exp $) with ESMTP id NAA28906; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:59:26 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id PAA22192; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:59:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: hip186.ch.intel.com: jreynold set sender to jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com using -f From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14508.24877.218486.106184@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:59:25 -0700 (MST) To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 In-Reply-To: <200002172050.PAA74191@server.baldwin.cx> References: <14508.23537.17216.207130@hip186.ch.intel.com> <200002172050.PAA74191@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 20.3.11 Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ On Thursday, February 17, John Baldwin wrote: ] > > [ snip ] > > If you are new, you use the Novice install. Custom and expert aren't for new > users, and it clearly states that on the main menu. Keep that in mind. OK. I could see that ... that *only* counter-point I can muster to that is my experience with Ebola '98 and all other Ebola-related products for the past N years that I've had to install. Whether or not I consider myself an Ebola expert or not, I *always* choose "Custom" install options to things like SmartSuite, Office, graphics stuff, games, etc. Why? Because 9 out of 10 times (in my experience) their "typical" installs don't install components I need/want and I don't want the "install everything" option wasting 100 Gb per application because they install turds I'll never use. I choose the "custom" version so I know exactly the bits and pieces I'm installing. So, I guess when I say "new" users, I'm thinking of new users who might be coming from the Windows world and have grown accustomed to doing "custom install" for everything as I've found myself doing. In that event, I, if I were a "new" user, would be inclined to choose something that says "custom" out of sheer force of habit. > Did you see my question regarding the order you did things? > Yes ... we are out-of-phase w.r.t. e-mails coming in ... Thanks, -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds WCCG, CCE, Higher Levels of Abstraction | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 602-868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 19:12:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAB1837B8F9 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 19:12:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p35-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.100]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id MAA19433; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:11:01 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <38ACB564.3BE691D8@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:58:44 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Reynolds~ Cc: freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: question regarding root_disk_unit ... References: <14508.13850.725857.718236@hip186.ch.intel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Reynolds~ wrote: > > I remembered seeing messages like this flying in current-digest and 10 minutes > of reading the "help" stuff within the boot loader led me to figure out to say > "set root_disk_unit=0" at the boot prompt and put that variable in my > /boot/loader.conf for future use. No problem. My question is, is > root_disk_unit set for somebody in /boot/loader.conf during an install if > there is a chance of things being confused (i.e. IDE and scsi disks in a > machine such as mine)? I think I remember somebody saying that they were > putting that code into either sysinstall or something so that machines with > this disk configuration (or wierder ones) would happily boot after exiting > sysinstall. My install was flawless simply because I yanked the scsi disks out > of the machine before proceeding. Comments? We cannot reliably set root_disk_unit because we have no reliable way of correlating what the kernel sees to what the BIOS sees. In other words, it requires human intervention. The solution we (well, Mike) are aiming at is completely doing away with the _need_ for this. In fact, afaik, 4.0 doesn't need it. Hey, Mike, if 4.0 doesn't need it, can we deprecate it? > Also, a non-related-to-freebsd question (but I know somebody will have the > answer), the root_disk_unit=0 thing fixed me up for booting FreeBSD off my > scsi disk, but when I tried to boot Ebola '98 with the F1 option (also located > on da0, da0s1) it just "sat there" ... I assume this is confusion on its part > because there is a new disk in the system and Ebola '98 is too stupid to do > the Right Thing(tm)? Anybody experienced this behavior with a dual-boot system > after adding an IDE disk to what was an an all-scsi disk system? I dunno if Ebola 98 is capable of booting off anything but the primary partition of the first disk. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "If you consider our help impolite, you should see the manager." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 21:30:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900B337B998; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:30:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA37823; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:30:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38ACD908.E756C802@gorean.org> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:30:48 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 References: <7327.950809955@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > Hmmm. Odd, I've always noted the opposite. If you do the novice install > (which everyone should if they're trying to test the "typical case"), I've always found the term "novice" to be a little off-putting. Perhaps "Standard Install" would be a better choice? Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 22:18:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA12537B8FA for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:18:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA43140; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 01:17:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200002180617.BAA43140@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <14508.24306.459593.102063@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 01:17:09 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: John Reynolds~ Subject: RE: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 Cc: freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ cc's trimmed, just keeping this on -qa ] On 17-Feb-00 John Reynolds~ wrote: > > [ On Thursday, February 17, John Baldwin wrote: ] >> >> > [printing ATA message about "waiting"] >> > >> Soren's been bugged about this, bug him some more. :) >> > > BUG BUG BUG :) Send it to his e-mail address. :) >> Hmm, it used to say something to that effect a while back. > > can't comment. I haven't done a CD install in a looong time. I think it has to do with the novice install. > OK. That's what happened! I added a new user ("me") before I did the desktop > configuration. So, you're saying that it adds a "dot.xinitrc" file in > /usr/shar/skel which would be copied to all created accounts? Yes, exactly. > Perhaps something could be added to sysinstall so that the "dot.*" files > aren't copied to user accounts until a) after a desktop configuration, or b) > sysinstall exits. Or, perhaps safer, if you do a desktop configuration recopy > all the dot.* files to all user accounts that were created during that > sysinstall session. Seems that would fix the problem ... No. Think of it this way, if you run sysinstall to reinstall a machine, or if you upgrade a machine, or use it to do configuration later on, you don't want to spam all users' dotfiles in their home directores with the updated ones in /usr/share/skel. Basically, newbies should use Novice, and as long as Novice does Desktop before adding new users, that is sufficient. If you use custom, then you have to know these things. :) The main menu of sysinstall warns you that Custom is for experts only. I know that in Windows I use custom all the time when installing software, but that warning was enough to make me use Novice back when I installed 2.1.6 the first time, and I think it should be sufficient for other newbies as well. >> Then submit patches to the /usr/share/skel files in a PR. I'm not sure where they >> are in the src tree, maybe src/share/skel. > > Indeed. However, as we were talking about this morning in -qa, is a better > spot for these variables /etc/csh.cshrc and /etc/profile? Mmmm.. I'm not sure. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 22:28:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A6A37B7C6 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:28:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA31621; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:28:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Doug Barton Cc: freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:30:48 PST." <38ACD908.E756C802@gorean.org> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:28:22 -0800 Message-ID: <31618.950855302@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hmmm. Yeah, I could see that. > "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > Hmmm. Odd, I've always noted the opposite. If you do the novice install > > (which everyone should if they're trying to test the "typical case"), > > I've always found the term "novice" to be a little off-putting. Perhaps > "Standard Install" would be a better choice? > > Doug > -- > "Welcome to the desert of the real." > > - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Thu Feb 17 22:36:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59ABF37B70C for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:36:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA45426; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 01:36:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200002180636.BAA45426@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <31618.950855302@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 01:36:02 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 Cc: freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.org, Doug Barton Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 18-Feb-00 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Hmmm. Yeah, I could see that. I think you will then increase the likelihood of a newbie who is used to Windows choosing the custom installation and end up messing things up. At least, please don't call it "typical". Also, if you wanted it to be more like what Windows users will expect, I would switch Expert and Custom. That might help some as well. >> "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: >> >> > Hmmm. Odd, I've always noted the opposite. If you do the novice install >> > (which everyone should if they're trying to test the "typical case"), >> >> I've always found the term "novice" to be a little off-putting. Perhaps >> "Standard Install" would be a better choice? >> >> Doug -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Fri Feb 18 6:29:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B59EA37B94A; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 06:29:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p12-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.77]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id XAA05961; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:29:39 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <38AD571D.C5B53079@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:28:45 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 References: <7327.950809955@zippy.cdrom.com> <38ACD908.E756C802@gorean.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Barton wrote: > > "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > Hmmm. Odd, I've always noted the opposite. If you do the novice install > > (which everyone should if they're trying to test the "typical case"), > > I've always found the term "novice" to be a little off-putting. Perhaps > "Standard Install" would be a better choice? Novice is ok, it's the other two that are problematic. Well, particularly "custom". "Custom" does not scare away anyone, and is actually actractive to Windows users. It should be called "death trap" or something like that... -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "If you consider our help impolite, you should see the manager." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Fri Feb 18 7:12:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from spoon.beta.com (h00a0242f177e.ne.mediaone.net [24.218.8.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F56D37B6FA; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:12:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mcgovern@spoon.beta.com) Received: from spoon.beta.com (mcgovern@localhost.beta.com [127.0.0.1]) by spoon.beta.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01992; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:12:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mcgovern@spoon.beta.com) Message-Id: <200002181512.KAA01992@spoon.beta.com> To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Doug Barton , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, mcgovern@spoon.beta.com Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:28:45 +0900." <38AD571D.C5B53079@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:12:20 -0500 From: "Brian J. McGovern" Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Doug Barton wrote: > > > > "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > > > Hmmm. Odd, I've always noted the opposite. If you do the novice instal l > > > (which everyone should if they're trying to test the "typical case"), > > > > I've always found the term "novice" to be a little off-putting. Pe rhaps > > "Standard Install" would be a better choice? > > Novice is ok, it's the other two that are problematic. Well, > particularly "custom". "Custom" does not scare away anyone, and is > actually actractive to Windows users. It should be called "death trap" > or something like that... I don't know if I agree. "Custom" is exactly what it says... You can build out the system with specifically the components you want. Now, perhaps I'm out of the ordinary here, but I _always_ use custom. Of course, of the 100+ machines that run it around here, each can have a very different purpose, so it makes sense to slice it that way. Also, as far as teaching new users how to install it, I _always_ show them the custom route. While this may sound harsh, its used to familarize them with all of sub-components, and what-does-what. Given that these systems can also run up to 3-4 operating systems, and the installations are not clear-cut, it makes more sense. As they become familar with it, they branch off, and use the installation method that most suits their needs. Now, I'll admit, that custom may be a bit daunting to people who are new to Operating Systems. But, even in the Windows enviornment, "Custom Installations" are usually documented as a route for those who are clue as to what they're doing, and "Standard" or "Quick" installs are for the others. In the end, I don't think you should put a negative vibe on the things that do exactly what they say they do. If you check my rulebook, rule number one is "People are stupid". If they're novices, and they stray off the "novice" path laid out for them, they're gonna get what they get. Part of any learning process is learning your limits. :) Anyhow, enough rant. I've just seen enough badmouthing of "custom" over the years that I want to speak up. It does what it claims to do. Leave it alone. -Brian > -- > Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) > dcs@newsguy.com > dcs@freebsd.org > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Fri Feb 18 7:52:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF6BD37B599; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:52:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA86342; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:52:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:52:37 -0500 (EST) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200002181552.KAA86342@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Doug Barton , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 In-Reply-To: <38AD571D.C5B53079@newsguy.com> References: <7327.950809955@zippy.cdrom.com> <38ACD908.E756C802@gorean.org> <38AD571D.C5B53079@newsguy.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG < said: > Novice is ok, it's the other two that are problematic. Well, > particularly "custom". "Custom" does not scare away anyone, and is > actually actractive to Windows users. It should be called "death trap" > or something like that... Huh? -GAWollman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Fri Feb 18 7:56:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from melete.ch.intel.com (melete.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E32337B9F9 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:56:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by melete.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.19 2000/01/29 00:15:43 dmccart Exp $) with ESMTP id PAA16513; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:57:26 GMT Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.10 2000/02/10 21:38:16 steved Exp $) with ESMTP id IAA18150; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:56:21 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id KAA09796; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:56:21 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: hip186.ch.intel.com: jreynold set sender to jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com using -f From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14509.27556.777321.702434@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:56:20 -0700 (MST) To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Subject: Re: question regarding root_disk_unit ... In-Reply-To: <38ACB564.3BE691D8@newsguy.com> References: <14508.13850.725857.718236@hip186.ch.intel.com> <38ACB564.3BE691D8@newsguy.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 20.3.11 Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ On Friday, February 18, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: ] > > We cannot reliably set root_disk_unit because we have no reliable way of > correlating what the kernel sees to what the BIOS sees. > > In other words, it requires human intervention. > > The solution we (well, Mike) are aiming at is completely doing away with > the _need_ for this. In fact, afaik, 4.0 doesn't need it. Oh, OK. Like I said in the message, this was 3.4--I hadn't booted up 4.0 on the EIDE disk with the SCSI disks installed at all, so I couldn't see the need (if any) for the tweak. > Hey, Mike, if 4.0 doesn't need it, can we deprecate it? > > I dunno if Ebola 98 is capable of booting off anything but the primary > partition of the first disk. CRAP. Yeah, probably you're right.... when I slap the EIDE in there, it is the "first" disk. If I try and boot Ebola '98 from the first partition of my first scsi drive, as far as it's concerned its the "second" drive. Crap Crap Crap. Looks like I'll be investigating VMware sooner than I thought :) -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds WCCG, CCE, Higher Levels of Abstraction | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 602-868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Fri Feb 18 8: 6:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from melete.ch.intel.com (melete.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA7537B9C6 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:06:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by melete.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.19 2000/01/29 00:15:43 dmccart Exp $) with ESMTP id QAA17079; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:04:18 GMT Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.10 2000/02/10 21:38:16 steved Exp $) with ESMTP id JAA19663; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:03:13 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id LAA10064; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:03:13 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: hip186.ch.intel.com: jreynold set sender to jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com using -f From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14509.27968.406106.99977@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:03:12 -0700 (MST) To: Doug Barton Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 In-Reply-To: <38ACD908.E756C802@gorean.org> References: <7327.950809955@zippy.cdrom.com> <38ACD908.E756C802@gorean.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 20.3.11 Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ On Thursday, February 17, Doug Barton wrote: ] > > I've always found the term "novice" to be a little off-putting. Perhaps > "Standard Install" would be a better choice? > > Doug Excellent idea! Maybe take: x x 2 Novice Begin a novice installation (for beginners) x x x x 3 Express Begin a quick installation (for the impatient) x x x x 4 Custom Begin a custom installation (for experts) x x and turn into: x x 2 Standard Begin a standard installation (for 1st-time users) x x x x 3 Express Begin a quick installation (for the impatient) x x x x 4 Custom Begin a custom installation (for experts) x x It's better for people's psyche to be called a "1st-time user" rather than "a beginner" me thinks ... :) -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds WCCG, CCE, Higher Levels of Abstraction | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 602-868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Fri Feb 18 8:24: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from melete.ch.intel.com (melete.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9350637B9A0 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:23:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by melete.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.19 2000/01/29 00:15:43 dmccart Exp $) with ESMTP id QAA18140 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:25:01 GMT Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.10 2000/02/10 21:38:16 steved Exp $) with ESMTP id JAA24280 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:23:56 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-To: X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id LAA10819; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:23:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: hip186.ch.intel.com: jreynold set sender to jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com using -f From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14509.29211.318657.618452@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:23:55 -0700 (MST) To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 In-Reply-To: <38AD571D.C5B53079@newsguy.com> References: <7327.950809955@zippy.cdrom.com> <38ACD908.E756C802@gorean.org> <38AD571D.C5B53079@newsguy.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 20.3.11 Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ On Friday, February 18, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: ] > > Novice is ok, it's the other two that are problematic. Well, > particularly "custom". "Custom" does not scare away anyone, and is > actually actractive to Windows users. It should be called "death trap" > or something like that... > OK. I recant my previous attempt. How about: x x 2 Standard Begin a standard installation (for 1st-time users) x x x x 3 Quick Begin a quick installation (for the impatient) x x x x 4 Expert Begin a custom installation (for experts only) x x does this convey the proper "if you've never done this before, use standard" and "if you choose ``expert'' you'd better RTFM and know what you're doing" messages? Back to our regularly scheduled hack, -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds WCCG, CCE, Higher Levels of Abstraction | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 602-868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Fri Feb 18 8:38:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from pan.ch.intel.com (pan.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3642037B971; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:38:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by pan.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.19 2000/01/29 00:15:43 dmccart Exp $) with ESMTP id JAA28912; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:38:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.10 2000/02/10 21:38:16 steved Exp $) with ESMTP id JAA26875; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:38:30 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id LAA11328; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:38:30 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: hip186.ch.intel.com: jreynold set sender to jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com using -f From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14509.30086.25259.21581@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:38:30 -0700 (MST) To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Subject: RE: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 In-Reply-To: <200002180617.BAA43140@server.baldwin.cx> References: <14508.24306.459593.102063@hip186.ch.intel.com> <200002180617.BAA43140@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 20.3.11 Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ On Friday, February 18, John Baldwin wrote: ] > [ cc's trimmed, just keeping this on -qa ] > > Send it to his e-mail address. :) I did send the feedback to Soren's address before when I was working with RC1. It seems to falling on somewhat deaf ears. I'll send him another plea. > in /usr/share/skel. Basically, newbies should use Novice, and as long as Novice > does Desktop before adding new users, that is sufficient. If you use custom, > then you have to know these things. :) The main menu of sysinstall warns you DOH! :) -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds WCCG, CCE, Higher Levels of Abstraction | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 602-868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Fri Feb 18 9:37:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0A8F37B9C4 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:37:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24260; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:36:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200002181736.MAA24260@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <14509.29211.318657.618452@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:36:02 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: John Reynolds~ Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 Cc: freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 18-Feb-00 John Reynolds~ wrote: > > [ On Friday, February 18, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: ] >> >> Novice is ok, it's the other two that are problematic. Well, >> particularly "custom". "Custom" does not scare away anyone, and is >> actually actractive to Windows users. It should be called "death trap" >> or something like that... >> > > OK. I recant my previous attempt. How about: > > x x 2 Standard Begin a standard installation (for 1st-time users) x x > x x 3 Quick Begin a quick installation (for the impatient) x x > x x 4 Expert Begin a custom installation (for experts only) x x > > does this convey the proper "if you've never done this before, use standard" > and "if you choose ``expert'' you'd better RTFM and know what you're doing" > messages? I think this is good. While custom has the right meaning, it has extra baggage now due to Windows, and we don't want experienced Windows users who are Unix newbies thinking they can use custom and still be hand-held just like in Windows. > Back to our regularly scheduled hack, > > -Jr -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Fri Feb 18 10:36:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3C337B9B2; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:36:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA79209; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:36:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Brian J. McGovern" Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Doug Barton , freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:12:20 EST." <200002181512.KAA01992@spoon.beta.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:36:30 -0800 Message-ID: <79206.950898990@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > it makes sense to slice it that way. Also, as far as teaching new users how > to install it, I _always_ show them the custom route. While this may sound > harsh, its used to familarize them with all of sub-components, and I really kinda wish you'd point them to Novice^H^H^H^H^HStandard instead since it does more than be a bit more verbose, it also makes sure that all the appropriate steps are covered and prevents even relatively skilled people from hanging themselves. Let's take the case someone recently reported: He went and added a user or two using the user configuration tool, THEN went and configured X and the default desktop. Since the default desktop configuration writes the new skeleton files, adding the user(s) first means they all get the stock twm environment since the Desktop config tool is hardly going to go back retroactively and frob every user it can find on the system - that would be evil and bad even if I wanted to add the code to do this. Using the Standard installation, you're presented with all the appropriate checklist items in the *right order* so you don't shoot parts of your anatomy off like this. I will also say here and now that even I use the Standard installation since I don't like having to remember all the canonical steps in setting up a "stock" system and if anybody should remember them, it should be me - I've probably installed FreeBSD at least 50,000 times. :-) Do your friends a favor, point them at the now-not-so-embarassingly-named Standard installation as a matter of course. Custom installation is for those who both understand what they're doing and what they're *not* doing as a consequence of using it. As our desktop friend proved, not even those who think they know the full set of "nots" can escape being proven wrong by Custom. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Fri Feb 18 12:19:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from melete.ch.intel.com (melete.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD6B437B9D6 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:19:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by melete.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.19 2000/01/29 00:15:43 dmccart Exp $) with ESMTP id UAA02920 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:20:48 GMT Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.10 2000/02/10 21:38:16 steved Exp $) with ESMTP id NAA13244 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:19:42 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-To: X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id PAA20023; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:19:42 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: hip186.ch.intel.com: jreynold set sender to jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com using -f From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14509.43357.330200.191691@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:19:41 -0700 (MST) To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 In-Reply-To: <79206.950898990@zippy.cdrom.com> References: <200002181512.KAA01992@spoon.beta.com> <79206.950898990@zippy.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 20.3.11 Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ On Friday, February 18, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: ] > > it makes sense to slice it that way. Also, as far as teaching new users how > > to install it, I _always_ show them the custom route. While this may sound > > harsh, its used to familarize them with all of sub-components, and > > Let's take the case someone recently reported: He went and added a > user or two using the user configuration tool, THEN went and > configured X and the default desktop. Since the default desktop > configuration writes the new skeleton files, adding the user(s) first > means they all get the stock twm environment since the Desktop config > tool is hardly going to go back retroactively and frob every user it > can find on the system - that would be evil and bad even if I wanted > to add the code to do this. Using the Standard installation, you're > presented with all the appropriate checklist items in the *right order* > so you don't shoot parts of your anatomy off like this. Yes. That someone was me. :) ... and I did fall into the trap of "custom" install ala windud (see previous posts within the last day). I just simply did not understand the order in which things had to be done in "Custom" install for it to DTRT. When it "failed" (notice the quotes) I was able to do it myself no problem, but it left me reporting an erroneous error to the list (you could argue that sysinstall did the "right thing" or "wrong thing" either way) ... Hopefully the (newly renamed?) "Standard" install will be more attractive to new-comers and experienced people alike. > Do your friends a favor, point them at the now-not-so-embarassingly-named > Standard installation as a matter of course. Custom installation > is for those who both understand what they're doing and what they're > *not* doing as a consequence of using it. As our desktop friend proved, > not even those who think they know the full set of "nots" can escape > being proven wrong by Custom. :) Yup! Easy to overcome from something as simple as putting "gnome-session" in a .xinitrc file (*iff* you know to do that as a newbie), but it *did* bite me! -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds WCCG, CCE, Higher Levels of Abstraction | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 602-868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Fri Feb 18 14: 9:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from waldorf.cs.uni-dortmund.de (waldorf.cs.uni-dortmund.de [129.217.4.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA4E037BAA6; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:09:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE) Received: from marcy.cs.uni-dortmund.de (marcy.cs.uni-dortmund.de [129.217.20.159]) by waldorf.cs.uni-dortmund.de with ESMTP id XAA07367; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:09:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de (lucy [129.217.20.160]) by marcy.cs.uni-dortmund.de id XAA26981; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:09:17 +0100 (MET) Received: (from grossjoh@localhost) by lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-6) id XAA05229; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:09:16 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de: grossjoh set sender to Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE using -f To: freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 References: <79206.950898990@zippy.cdrom.com> From: Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai=?iso-8859-1?q?_Gro=DFjohann?=) In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of "Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:36:30 -0800" User-Agent: Gnus/5.0804 (Gnus v5.8.4) Emacs/20.5 Date: 18 Feb 2000 23:09:16 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > I really kinda wish you'd point them to Novice^H^H^H^H^HStandard > instead since it does more than be a bit more verbose, it also makes > sure that all the appropriate steps are covered and prevents even > relatively skilled people from hanging themselves. Does this mean that this option should be called `guided'? I know a little bit about Unix but haven't installed FreeBSD more than five times or so. And I always thought that the novice install meant that I didn't get as many choices... kai -- ~/.signature: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Fri Feb 18 18:11: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu (nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu [128.227.242.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A37D337BAF3 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:11:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bobj@atlantic.net) Received: from bsd.cisi.com (ocalflifanb-as-1-r1-ip-665.atlantic.net [209.208.16.221]) by nt-exchange.ifas.ufl.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id 14SGTLQS; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:08:39 -0500 Received: from nancy.cisi.com (nancy.cisi.com [192.168.0.131]) by bsd.cisi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA21376 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:07:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bobj@atlantic.net) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000218210725.0097e480@rio.atlantic.net> X-Sender: bobj@rio.atlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:07:25 -0500 To: freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG From: Bob Johnson Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 In-Reply-To: <200002181736.MAA24260@server.baldwin.cx> References: <14509.29211.318657.618452@hip186.ch.intel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:36 PM 02/18/2000 -0500, John Baldwin wrote: > >On 18-Feb-00 John Reynolds~ wrote: >> >> [ On Friday, February 18, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: ] >>> >>> Novice is ok, it's the other two that are problematic. Well, >>> particularly "custom". "Custom" does not scare away anyone, and is >>> actually actractive to Windows users. It should be called "death trap" >>> or something like that... >>> >> >> OK. I recant my previous attempt. How about: >> >> x x 2 Standard Begin a standard installation (for 1st-time users) x x >> x x 3 Quick Begin a quick installation (for the impatient) x x >> x x 4 Expert Begin a custom installation (for experts only) x x >> >> does this convey the proper "if you've never done this before, use standard" >> and "if you choose ``expert'' you'd better RTFM and know what you're doing" >> messages? > >I think this is good. While custom has the right meaning, it has extra baggage >now due to Windows, and we don't want experienced Windows users who are Unix >newbies thinking they can use custom and still be hand-held just like in Windows. I think that to Windows users, there will still be the assumption that "Standard" means "you don't get to choose what's best for you". I like the previous suggestion that it be called "Guided", i.e. "Begin a guided installation (for most users)". -- Bob +-------------------------------------------------------- | Bob Johnson | bobj@cisi.com +-------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Sat Feb 19 12:14:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76EA737BC1A; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:14:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (dcs@p10-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.11]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id FAA15583; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 05:12:45 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <38AEF905.A3512928@newsguy.com> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 05:11:49 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Brian J. McGovern" Cc: Doug Barton , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 References: <200002181512.KAA01992@spoon.beta.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Brian J. McGovern" wrote: > > I don't know if I agree. "Custom" is exactly what it says... You can build > out the system with specifically the components you want. Now, perhaps I'm out That proves "Custom" is not exactly what it says. You can do the same thing with Novice. ALL installation modes give you the same granularity of components. The difference is: Novice -- automatically steps through all phases of installation, with explanations at each step Expert -- automatically steps through all phases of installation Custom -- requires the user to select by hand the installation phases All the Custom installation really gives you is: * The ability to avoid phases you won't be needing * The ability to shoot yourself in the foot The last one can be useful in some rather rare cases. > Now, I'll admit, that custom may be a bit daunting to people who are new to > Operating Systems. But, even in the Windows enviornment, > "Custom Installations" are usually documented as a route for those who are > clue as to what they're doing, and "Standard" or "Quick" installs are for > the others. Exactly. That's not how FreeBSD installation options are set up. Which is the whole point. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "If you consider our help impolite, you should see the manager." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Sat Feb 19 13:57:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86EE737BCF8; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 13:57:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p10-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.11]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id GAA22480; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 06:57:31 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <38AF1186.8D04CE12@newsguy.com> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 06:56:22 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kai =?iso-8859-1?Q?Gro=DFjohann?= Cc: freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 References: <79206.950898990@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kai Gro=DFjohann wrote: > = > "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > = > > I really kinda wish you'd point them to Novice^H^H^H^H^HStandard > > instead since it does more than be a bit more verbose, it also makes > > sure that all the appropriate steps are covered and prevents even > > relatively skilled people from hanging themselves. > = > Does this mean that this option should be called `guided'? I know a > little bit about Unix but haven't installed FreeBSD more than five > times or so. And I always thought that the novice install meant that > I didn't get as many choices... "Guided". I like it. That's *PRECISELY* what this installation option is. There is NO difference in the number of choices available in any of the three types. Guided/Express/Expert. That's my vote. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "If you consider our help impolite, you should see the manager." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Sat Feb 19 14: 2:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (chilled.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A7D037BCBF; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:02:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@freebsddiary.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA51122; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 11:02:10 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200002192202.LAA51122@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 11:02:10 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 Reply-To: dan@freebsddiary.org Cc: freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <38AF1186.8D04CE12@newsguy.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20 Feb 00, at 6:56, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > "Guided". I like it. That's *PRECISELY* what this installation option > is. There is NO difference in the number of choices available in any of > the three types. I have many times encountered a user who avoided the NOVICE install and tried one of the other methods. They clearly lacked the skill necessary to perform anything *other* than a NOVICE install. I suspect they avoided the NOVICE install because they didn't consider themselves a novice ("But I've been using Linux for years!"). I think calling it GUIDED will certainly reduce the number of calls for help. -- Dan Langille - DVL Software Limited [I'm looking for more work] The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ NZ FreeBSD User Group - http://www.nzfug.nz.freebsd.org/ The Racing System - http://www.racingsystem.com/ unix @ home - http://www.unixathome.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Sat Feb 19 14: 6: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from mail4.aracnet.com (mail4.aracnet.com [216.99.193.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 257D137BCBF; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:05:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from beattie@aracnet.com) Received: from shell1.aracnet.com (IDENT:root@shell1.aracnet.com [216.99.193.21]) by mail4.aracnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16019; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:06:14 -0800 Received: from localhost by shell1.aracnet.com (8.9.3) id OAA09945; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:06:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: shell1.aracnet.com: beattie owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:06:26 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Beattie To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Kai =?iso-8859-1?Q?Gro=DFjohann?= , freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 In-Reply-To: <38AF1186.8D04CE12@newsguy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > Kai Gro=DFjohann wrote: > >=20 > > "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > >=20 > > > I really kinda wish you'd point them to Novice^H^H^H^H^HStandard > > > instead since it does more than be a bit more verbose, it also makes > > > sure that all the appropriate steps are covered and prevents even > > > relatively skilled people from hanging themselves. > >=20 > > Does this mean that this option should be called `guided'? I know a > > little bit about Unix but haven't installed FreeBSD more than five > > times or so. And I always thought that the novice install meant that > > I didn't get as many choices... >=20 > "Guided". I like it. That's *PRECISELY* what this installation option > is. There is NO difference in the number of choices available in any of > the three types. >=20 > Guided/Express/Expert. That's my vote. This still implies that Expert nee Custom is superior to Guided nee Novice, in ways that it is not. As far as I can tell the only thing Expert provides is the ability to skip steps and to do steps in the wrong order so that the install will fail. Standard/Express/Exceptional. Would be my vote, if I had a vote which I'm sure I don't. Brian Beattie | The only problem with beattie@aracnet.com | winning the rat race ... www.aracnet.com/~beattie | in the end you're still a rat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Sat Feb 19 14:25:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6B237BC1A; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:25:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA92457; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 16:26:00 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 16:26:00 -0600 (CST) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <200002192226.QAA92457@prism.flugsvamp.com> To: dcs@newsguy.com, freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-current In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Cc: Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article you write: >Kai Großjohann wrote: >> >> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: >> >> > I really kinda wish you'd point them to Novice^H^H^H^H^HStandard >> > instead since it does more than be a bit more verbose, it also makes >> > sure that all the appropriate steps are covered and prevents even >> > relatively skilled people from hanging themselves. >> >> Does this mean that this option should be called `guided'? I know a >> little bit about Unix but haven't installed FreeBSD more than five >> times or so. And I always thought that the novice install meant that >> I didn't get as many choices... > >"Guided". I like it. That's *PRECISELY* what this installation option >is. There is NO difference in the number of choices available in any of >the three types. > >Guided/Express/Expert. That's my vote. Cool, seconded. I actually use "novice" most of the time, simply because I like the hints that help me not to screw up, and I've been using this option (or equivalent) since 1.1.5 at least. Guided sounds like a better description to me. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-qa Sat Feb 19 15:53:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-qa@freebsd.org Received: from polaris.we.lc.ehu.es (polaris.we.lc.ehu.es [158.227.6.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1460B37BD08; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:53:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jose@we.lc.ehu.es) Received: from we.lc.ehu.es (lxpx48.lx.ehu.es [158.227.99.48]) by polaris.we.lc.ehu.es (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA07223; Sun, 20 Feb 2000 00:52:43 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <38AF2CCB.ABC4BC55@we.lc.ehu.es> Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 00:52:43 +0100 From: "Jose M. Alcaide" Organization: Universidad del =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pa=EDs?= Vasco - Dpto. de Electricidad y =?iso-8859-1?Q?Electr=F3nica?= X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: es-ES, es, en-US, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Beattie Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Kai =?iso-8859-1?Q?Gro=DFjohann?= , freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: feedback on CD install of 4.0-RC2 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Beattie wrote: > > On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > > > > "Guided". I like it. That's *PRECISELY* what this installation option > > is. There is NO difference in the number of choices available in any of > > the three types. > > > > Guided/Express/Expert. That's my vote. > > This still implies that Expert nee Custom is superior to Guided nee > Novice, in ways that it is not. As far as I can tell the only thing > Expert provides is the ability to skip steps and to do steps in the wrong > order so that the install will fail. > > Standard/Express/Exceptional. Would be my vote, if I had a vote which I'm > sure I don't. > Guided/Express/Dangerous ? -- JMA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- José Mª Alcaide | mailto:jose@we.lc.ehu.es Universidad del País Vasco | mailto:jmas@FreeBSD.org Dpto. de Electricidad y Electrónica | http://www.we.lc.ehu.es/~jose Facultad de Ciencias - Campus de Lejona | Tel.: +34-946012479 48940 Lejona (Vizcaya) - SPAIN | Fax: +34-946013071 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Beware of Programmers who carry screwdrivers" -- Leonard Brandwein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-qa" in the body of the message