From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Feb 20 11:28:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (yowie.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4D6737B65D for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:28:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s337240@student.uq.edu.au) Received: from student.uq.edu.au (s337240@student.uq.edu.au [130.102.87.136]) by yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA08676 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 05:28:46 +1000 (GMT+1000) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 05:28:46 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: Trent Waddington To: Subject: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Late '99 I wrote a backend for gcc targeting the java virtual machine. At the time the university I was working for did not want to release the code (they had paid me to develop it) but I managed to convince them that it was better to release the source code than have it sit on the shelf and do nothing. They refused however to sign the copyright assignment forms to make it part of the gcc distribution. I recently asked RMS if he figured it would be worth my while to go and ask for the assignment again as I figured that after reaping nothing from the code for 18 months they may be more forthcoming. This is the response I got. RMS essentially tells me to bury the code in the backyard because it might be "dangerous". ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:59:32 -0700 (MST) From: Richard Stallman To: s337240@student.uq.edu.au Subject: Re: java backend If it is possible to compile languages such as C into Java byte codes, I see a great danger. The danger is that people will use Java byte codes to hook GCC up to proprietary back ends and proprietary front ends. They could also generate Java byte codes, run a proprietary optimizer, and feed the result back into GCC. In effect, the support for Java byte codes would undermine the goals of the GPL. If your changes really do make such activities much easier, more feasible in practice, then I think it would have been better if you had never implemented the feature. And now it would be better now if you take these changes off your web site, and don't mention that they exist. Of course, someone else really determined could redo the work, the extra burden of doing so might dissuade people from trying. Did we discuss this previously? I don't remember, because my memory is not as good as it was. If we did, I will search for the old mail. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Feb 20 12:29:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-165-226-53.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.165.226.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9E737B401 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:29:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 29B2F66F2E; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:29:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:29:38 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Trent Waddington Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again' Message-ID: <20010220122938.A36807@mollari.cthul.hu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from s337240@student.uq.edu.au on Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:28:46AM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:28:46AM +1000, Trent Waddington wrote: >=20 > Late '99 I wrote a backend for gcc targeting the java virtual machine. At > the time the university I was working for did not want to release the code > (they had paid me to develop it) but I managed to convince them that it > was better to release the source code than have it sit on the shelf and do > nothing. They refused however to sign the copyright assignment forms to > make it part of the gcc distribution. I recently asked RMS if he figured > it would be worth my while to go and ask for the assignment again as I > figured that after reaping nothing from the code for 18 months they may be > more forthcoming. This is the response I got. RMS essentially tells me > to bury the code in the backyard because it might be "dangerous". Release it under the BSDL and really piss RMS off :-) Kris --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6ktOxWry0BWjoQKURAmHVAKC6EgDo3xH/NOqTT7gEks+VAUTRpwCdFxIU PmB9BqXquxe2tGFFdeY03iI= =TB53 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Feb 20 13: 1:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AEBD37B491 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:01:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f1KL1bu67448 ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:01:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id WAA69431 ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:01:37 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:01:37 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Trent Waddington , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again' Message-ID: <20010220220137.J38225@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Kris Kennaway , Trent Waddington , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010220122938.A36807@mollari.cthul.hu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010220122938.A36807@mollari.cthul.hu>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 12:29:38PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway said on Feb 20, 2001 at 12:29:38: > On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 05:28:46AM +1000, Trent Waddington wrote: > > > > Late '99 I wrote a backend for gcc targeting the java virtual machine. At > > the time the university I was working for did not want to release the code > > (they had paid me to develop it) but I managed to convince them that it > > was better to release the source code than have it sit on the shelf and do > > nothing. They refused however to sign the copyright assignment forms to > > make it part of the gcc distribution. I recently asked RMS if he figured > > it would be worth my while to go and ask for the assignment again as I > > figured that after reaping nothing from the code for 18 months they may be > > more forthcoming. This is the response I got. RMS essentially tells me > > to bury the code in the backyard because it might be "dangerous". > > Release it under the BSDL and really piss RMS off :-) Actually, if you really want to get it into mainstream gcc, it seems to me that RMS is the wrong guy to ask. Have you tried the gcc team? http://gcc.gnu.org/contribute.html I don't know whether they'll agree with RMS: I suspect not. -Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Feb 20 13:22:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (yowie.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555E637B4EC for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:22:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s337240@student.uq.edu.au) Received: from student.uq.edu.au (s337240@student.uq.edu.au [130.102.87.136]) by yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA07115; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:21:21 +1000 (GMT+1000) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:21:20 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: Trent Waddington To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Kris Kennaway , Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again' In-Reply-To: <20010220220137.J38225@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Actually, if you really want to get it into mainstream gcc, it seems > to me that RMS is the wrong guy to ask. Have you tried the gcc team? > http://gcc.gnu.org/contribute.html > I don't know whether they'll agree with RMS: I suspect not. > Thanks, I was asking RMS legal questions in particular whether I should go after the copyright assignment to the FSF when this ugliness began. For those who don't know, before anything will be included in gcc you have to assign your copyright to the FSF and obtain a letter of diclaimer from any employer you have at the time. Trent To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Feb 20 14: 3:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E55437B401 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:03:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA29108; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:58:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAv.aOU4; Tue Feb 20 14:58:10 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA28567; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:03:41 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102202203.PAA28567@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again To: s337240@student.uq.edu.au (Trent Waddington) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:02:20 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Trent Waddington" at Feb 21, 2001 05:28:46 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If your changes really do make such activities much easier, more > feasible in practice, then I think it would have been better if you > had never implemented the feature. And now it would be better now if > you take these changes off your web site, and don't mention that they > exist. Of course, someone else really determined could redo the work, > the extra burden of doing so might dissuade people from trying. Stallman is a luddite moron. If his having a "manifesto" wasn't sufficient, this statement clearly identifies him as the Theodore Kazinski of free software. Any philosophy which would allow him to arrive at the idea that you can stop ideas is fundamentally flawed. Ideas have their time; they are at best delaying the inevitable. History shows us that there is NOTHING which "would be better had it not been invented". Even the most terrible weapons teach us, humanity, lessons which could not be learned any other way. Technology or science is not good or evil; it is the uses to which people put it which are good or evil. Stallman, Kazinski, and other people who want to retard progress are saying that they don't trust people to do the right thing. You have to have a real dim view of humanity, and be either an atheist, a theist who doesn't trust their God, or insane. The jury is still out on which category Bill Joy is in, after his paranoid rant on how we shouldn't even engage in research on nanotechnology; what does he think genetic research is? It's nanotechnology in a high level language, without access to the source code or enough information to use the assembler. He's not against that. Haven't the vast majority of us given up burning and drowning people to "save" them since the 1600's? Stallman never ceases to amaze me; I think he's done the most infuriating thing he's capable of doing, and each time he tops himself. The moron can't even design a license to have the emergent properties necessary to achieve his own "manifesto"; if his thinking is that flawed, there's no telling how he will react to any given stimulus. My advice: shout your code from the highest steeple. Start a project on SourceForge (or whatever). Make it impossible to stop the work by stopping you: you will be a target in his eyes until you do, and he has a history of attempting to discredit his opponents, rather than winning over them on merit. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Feb 20 14:31:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28AF37B4EC for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:31:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA5870; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:36:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3A92EF80.14F68EF2@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:28:16 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Trent Waddington Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Trent Waddington wrote: > > ... I recently asked RMS if he figured > it would be worth my while to go and ask for the assignment again as I > figured that after reaping nothing from the code for 18 months they may be > more forthcoming. This is the response I got. RMS essentially tells me > to bury the code in the backyard because it might be "dangerous". Go take a look at his rant on UDI. His two main objections to it are "People could run free GPL-covered Linux drivers with Windows systems", and "People could run non-free Windows drivers on GNU/Linux systems." I was confused, and asked him about it. "Why shouldn't Windows users have Free Software drivers?" His response was very similar to the one he sent me. That was my Great Turning Point, the moment in time when I realized that Richard Stallman is a complete and utter fraud. He is not interested in Free Software, except when it aids his only real goal, The GNU System. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Feb 20 14:41:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA4A37B491 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:41:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA5E54; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:46:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3A92F1EE.C31EB50@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:38:38 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again References: <200102202203.PAA28567@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > Stallman, Kazinski, and other people who want to retard progress > are saying that they don't trust people to do the right thing. > You have to have a real dim view of humanity, and be either an > atheist, a theist who doesn't trust their God, or insane. Bingo! The premise of the GPL is that the user is prone to immorality and unreason. The premise of the BSDL is that the user is competent, rational and moral. And this attitude isn't lost on the user. Case in point: Steve Jobs only released the NeXT Objective C front end under the GPL because he was threatened by legal action, but he released Darwin under the APSL and donated lots back to FreeBSD _without_even_being_asked_to! David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Feb 20 21:45:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6E8A37B401 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:45:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f1L5hI718709; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:43:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Trent Waddington" , Subject: RE: Stallman stalls again Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:43:18 -0800 Message-ID: <003001c09bc9$314aeea0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Trent Waddington > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 11:29 AM > To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Stallman stalls again > > more forthcoming. This is the response I got. RMS essentially tells me > to bury the code in the backyard because it might be "dangerous". > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:59:32 -0700 (MST) > From: Richard Stallman > To: s337240@student.uq.edu.au > Subject: Re: java backend > > If it is possible to compile languages such as C into Java byte codes, > I see a great danger. The danger is that people will use Java byte > codes to hook GCC up to proprietary back ends and proprietary front > ends. They could also generate Java byte codes, run a proprietary > optimizer, and feed the result back into GCC. In effect, the support > for Java byte codes would undermine the goals of the GPL. > I've read this statement 6 times putting myself into the most convoluted frame of mind possible and I still can't understand how this undermines the goals of GPL, even if people start doing what Stallman says they can do. Java's just another tool, nowhere near as popular as C. It's getting close to peaking anyway, in 10 years it's going to be in just another of those cubbyholes that Perl, Sed, Awk, PHP, HTML and all the rest of them are in. Your never going to see anything come along and dislodge C and C++ from their positions, just as your never going to see a special-purpose PC (like a webTV box or a Sony Playstation) dislodge the general purpose desktop PC. After all, everyone with a toolbox has a set of screwdrivers, but not everyone with a toolbox has a 1/2 inch pipe threader. Could someone explain Stallman's logic here? Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Feb 20 22:32:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (femail1.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BC3737B4EC for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:32:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dennisjun@home.com) Received: from wilma ([24.114.163.66]) by femail1.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20010221063142.EZVV24578.femail1.rdc1.on.home.com@wilma> for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:31:42 -0800 Message-ID: <046d01c09bd0$1e8bdfc0$0300a8c0@wilma> From: "Dennis Jun" To: Subject: BSD licence vs GPL Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:32:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello all! A Linux friend of mine and I were chatting bout the BSD licence versus the GPL. He was asking me how *BSD developers felt about that their code could (and has) being used by commercial companies and in turn becomes closed in the end. That is, you don't know if your code will stay open or not. He asked doesn't that bother BSD developers? I thought this was a very interesting question. I couldn't give him a really good answer since I'm not a programmer. So I wanted to ask some people who do program and contribute to BSD what their thoughts on this is. Does it bother you? Is it even an issue? Much thanx in advance. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Feb 20 23:14:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from moby.geekhouse.net (moby.geekhouse.net [64.81.6.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFB7F37B491 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:14:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@dhcp151.geekhouse.net [192.168.1.151]) by moby.geekhouse.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f1L7Gxc68469; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:17:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <046d01c09bd0$1e8bdfc0$0300a8c0@wilma> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:14:18 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Dennis Jun Subject: RE: BSD licence vs GPL Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 21-Feb-01 Dennis Jun wrote: > Hello all! > > A Linux friend of mine and I were chatting bout the BSD licence versus the > GPL. He was asking me how *BSD developers felt about that their code could > (and has) being used by commercial companies and in turn becomes closed in > the end. That is, you don't know if your code will stay open or not. He > asked doesn't that bother BSD developers? I thought this was a very > interesting question. I couldn't give him a really good answer since I'm > not a programmer. So I wanted to ask some people who do program and > contribute to BSD what their thoughts on this is. Does it bother you? Is > it even an issue? Much thanx in advance. Erm, just because a company uses a copy of my code in their closed source program doesn't mean that the copy of the code I have given away magically disappears. Once it is open, it is always open. However, I am not of the opinion that closed-source software is this evil thing we all need to hate and attempt to destroy, so I have no problem with any code I release being used in either open or closed source projects. If I'm giving it away, I'm giving it away. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Feb 20 23:17:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-165-226-53.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.165.226.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA55837B4EC for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:17:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7BA5B66F2E; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:17:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:17:14 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Dennis Jun Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD licence vs GPL Message-ID: <20010220231714.A46829@mollari.cthul.hu> References: <046d01c09bd0$1e8bdfc0$0300a8c0@wilma> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <046d01c09bd0$1e8bdfc0$0300a8c0@wilma>; from dennisjun@home.com on Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:32:53AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:32:53AM -0500, Dennis Jun wrote: > Hello all! >=20 > A Linux friend of mine and I were chatting bout the BSD licence versus the > GPL. He was asking me how *BSD developers felt about that their code could > (and has) being used by commercial companies and in turn becomes closed in > the end. That is, you don't know if your code will stay open or not. He > asked doesn't that bother BSD developers? I thought this was a very > interesting question. I couldn't give him a really good answer since I'm > not a programmer. So I wanted to ask some people who do program and > contribute to BSD what their thoughts on this is. Does it bother you? Is > it even an issue? Much thanx in advance. I think it's great! If it saves someone the time, money and effort of redeveloping similar code from scratch, then we've helped to raise the bar of software quality in use out there by providing a high-quality starting point they can work from, and in some small way made the world a better place. Kris --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6k2t6Wry0BWjoQKURAkGDAJ9O0GYyoVNSEw3FArd13AB80vyPRACgxHRu yT/hjIAe6BJ81t4ekCUYkTQ= =rvsd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 21 0:22: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2CD237B401 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:22:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA21602; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:19:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAALeaGkQ; Wed Feb 21 01:18:51 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA10627; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:21:55 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102210821.BAA10627@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again To: tedm@toybox.placo.com (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:21:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: s337240@student.uq.edu.au (Trent Waddington), freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <003001c09bc9$314aeea0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> from "Ted Mittelstaedt" at Feb 20, 2001 09:43:18 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ ... ideo-logic ... ] > I've read this statement 6 times putting myself into the most convoluted > frame of mind possible and I still can't understand how this undermines > the goals of GPL, even if people start doing what Stallman says they can do. The point is that it can result in proprietary code taking advantage of GPL'ed code. You have to understand the very big difference between "use" an "utilize". It's a dictionary argument. > Java's just another tool, nowhere near as popular as C. It's getting close > to peaking anyway, in 10 years it's going to be in just another of those > cubbyholes that Perl, Sed, Awk, PHP, HTML and all the rest of them are in. Java's primary value is as a cross-platform API. Eventually, with the notable exception of bytecode rendered to run on a handful of proprietary processors, it will all be compiled code. I keep meaning to write a science fiction novel predicated on the idea that everything standardizes to a single instruction set, and then someone comes up with a new processor instruction set, and uses it in the context of a crime. One of the hero's helpers (the moral equivalent of Perry Mason's Paul Drake) has to decode the instruction set to figure out what it means. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 21 0:23:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89DA737B401 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:23:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA08886; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:17:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAm8airr; Wed Feb 21 01:17:49 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA10635; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:23:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102210823.BAA10635@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSD licence vs GPL To: dennisjun@home.com (Dennis Jun) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:23:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <046d01c09bd0$1e8bdfc0$0300a8c0@wilma> from "Dennis Jun" at Feb 21, 2001 01:32:53 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hello all! > > A Linux friend of mine and I were chatting bout the BSD licence versus the > GPL. He was asking me how *BSD developers felt about that their code could > (and has) being used by commercial companies and in turn becomes closed in > the end. That is, you don't know if your code will stay open or not. He > asked doesn't that bother BSD developers? I thought this was a very > interesting question. I couldn't give him a really good answer since I'm > not a programmer. So I wanted to ask some people who do program and > contribute to BSD what their thoughts on this is. Does it bother you? Is > it even an issue? Much thanx in advance. If it weren't for legal liability, our code would be public domain. The UCB license is as close as we can get, without legislative reform. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 21 1:13:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E32737B401 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:13:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f1L9Bj719166; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:11:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Trent Waddington" , Subject: RE: Stallman stalls again Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:11:45 -0800 Message-ID: <006901c09be6$4fff7920$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <200102210821.BAA10627@usr05.primenet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Terry Lambert > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 12:22 AM > To: Ted Mittelstaedt > Cc: Trent Waddington; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again > > > [ ... ideo-logic ... ] > > > I've read this statement 6 times putting myself into the most convoluted > > frame of mind possible and I still can't understand how this undermines > > the goals of GPL, even if people start doing what Stallman says > they can do. > > The point is that it can result in proprietary code taking > advantage of GPL'ed code. You have to understand the very > big difference between "use" an "utilize". It's a dictionary > argument. > Oh, I did get that point, but what I'm missing is how does proprietary code taking advantage of GPL code constitute an undermining of the goals of GPL? The GPL license bars mixing GPL into a commercial product unless you open your code up, so that hole is closed, and as far as proprietary products and code taking advantage of GCC itself, that's par for the course. The entire reason that GCC got kickstarted to begin with is that Sun unbundled their compiler, and people who were tired of paying Sun $5K for the UNIX system, and didn't want to pay another $5K for the compiler, decided to take a look at this GCC stuff. I'm sure that there's hundreds of commercial UNIX products for sale today that were compiled with GCC. I mean, I suppose that's what he's complaining about, but it seems so bass ackwards that it's unbelievable. If the commercial UNIX software community hadn't put effort into using and putting feedback into Stallman's code in the beginning, GCC would be just another failed research project in an archive somewhere, and Stallman just a speck on the wall. Is he really bitching about the very people that put him where he is and made him what he is today? > > > Java's just another tool, nowhere near as popular as C. It's > getting close > > to peaking anyway, in 10 years it's going to be in just another of those > > cubbyholes that Perl, Sed, Awk, PHP, HTML and all the rest of > them are in. > > Java's primary value is as a cross-platform API. Eventually, > with the notable exception of bytecode rendered to run on a > handful of proprietary processors, it will all be compiled > code. > > I keep meaning to write a science fiction novel predicated on > the idea that everything standardizes to a single instruction > set, and then someone comes up with a new processor instruction > set, and uses it in the context of a crime. One of the hero's > helpers (the moral equivalent of Perry Mason's Paul Drake) has > to decode the instruction set to figure out what it means. 8-). > F00F :-) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 21 1:31:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7855D37B401 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:31:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f1L9V8719198; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:31:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Dennis Jun" , Subject: RE: BSD licence vs GPL Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:31:07 -0800 Message-ID: <007101c09be9$04ff4f60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <046d01c09bd0$1e8bdfc0$0300a8c0@wilma> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Dennis Jun > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 10:33 PM > To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: BSD licence vs GPL > > > Hello all! > > A Linux friend of mine and I were chatting bout the BSD licence versus the > GPL. He was asking me how *BSD developers felt about that their code could > (and has) being used by commercial companies and in turn becomes closed in > the end. That is, you don't know if your code will stay open or not. He No, what happens is that the second that the commercial company closes their source, the source "forks", ie becomes disconnected from the public source that everyone is working in. I question if your friend has worked on large code projects much. The problem with forking off your own private copy of BSD code is that now, every time that someone makes a refinement to the BSD code that makes it better, if you want to take advantage of that refinement you have to go back and re-implement it into your own code. This is pretty easy to do initially, but the more divergence you yourself place into your own private source, the harder it becomes. For example, say you get BSD networking code and you see a race condition in it. You fix it, and decide that your fix is so fantastic that your not going to share it. Then, 3 months later someone working on the public code notices the same race condition, and fixes it, but does it differently than you did. Then, a few weeks later someone working on the BSD code implements this great new feature that has a component that's integrated into the public BSD anti-race code. Now, you have a lot of work, because you have to go rip out your race fix and redo it like the BSD code, then integrate in this new feature. And, what if you have continued to make modifications to the code, so now when you rip out your race fix, you break more of your own code. And, if you decide not to rip out your race fix, then you have to reimplement the new feature in the public code. You can imagine what happens if this sort of thing has been going on for years and years with hundreds of little changes - implementing new features basically eventually means that you cannot merely copy them into your code from the BSD code, you have to completely reengineer them. What ends up happening if the fork exists for years and years is that your code ultimately becomes so different from the BSD code that ie completely loses all resemblance to the BSD code, ie: it simply no longer IS BSD code. Thus, you eventually end up losing access to the very code that you originally decided to "close" To give you some examples of why this is so stupid, there have been a number of security vulnerabilities posted in the last couple of years that were repaired in publc BSD code within a day of release of knowledge of the vulnerability, yet commercial software vendors (who purported to be using Real Live BSD networking code) took weeks to issue patches. Well I can tell you, this is a recipie for getting your commercial software ejected from any self-respecting ISP. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com > asked doesn't that bother BSD developers? I thought this was a very > interesting question. I couldn't give him a really good answer since I'm > not a programmer. So I wanted to ask some people who do program and > contribute to BSD what their thoughts on this is. Does it bother you? Is > it even an issue? Much thanx in advance. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 21 2:25:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ohm.physics.purdue.edu (ohm.physics.purdue.edu [128.210.146.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2009B37B401 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 02:25:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@physics.purdue.edu) Received: (from will@localhost) by ohm.physics.purdue.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA92851; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 05:25:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from will@physics.purdue.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: ohm.physics.purdue.edu: will set sender to will@physics.purdue.edu using -f Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 05:25:30 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Dennis Jun , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD licence vs GPL Message-ID: <20010221052530.H83214@ohm.physics.purdue.edu> Reply-To: Will Andrews References: <046d01c09bd0$1e8bdfc0$0300a8c0@wilma> <007101c09be9$04ff4f60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="JSVXQxoTSdH0Ya++" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <007101c09be9$04ff4f60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:31:07AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --JSVXQxoTSdH0Ya++ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:31:07AM -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > The problem with forking off your own private copy of BSD code is that > now, every time that someone makes a refinement to the BSD code that > makes it better, if you want to take advantage of that refinement you > have to go back and re-implement it into your own code. This is pretty > easy to do initially, but the more divergence you yourself place into your > own private source, the harder it becomes. This is exactly why I never trusted how GPL advocates justified their restrictive license. Closing up one's source makes it impossible to keep your code competitive with the open source base. Keeping out commercial vendors only negatively impacts your development: people with money can fund full-time developers to bring more and better features to your code. They can choose to keep it to themselves for awhile, but as you say, over time this will only lead to problems. The other reason I like the BSD license is the same that Kris Kennaway already gave: It allows commercial vendors to implement code that was *properly* designed, not designed under market pressure. This makes the world a better place. --=20 wca --JSVXQxoTSdH0Ya++ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.3 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6k5eZF47idPgWcsURAtLqAJ9uLMaKfMT94l1ezoMV44OKBfFJCACfXgxb W0DJYi7iHkCmN9TGwesSrOE= =/dQY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --JSVXQxoTSdH0Ya++-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 21 2:33:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-165-226-53.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.165.226.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6020C37B401 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 02:33:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BF29466F2E; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 02:33:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 02:33:16 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Dennis Jun , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD licence vs GPL Message-ID: <20010221023316.A49953@mollari.cthul.hu> References: <046d01c09bd0$1e8bdfc0$0300a8c0@wilma> <007101c09be9$04ff4f60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9amGYk9869ThD9tj" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <007101c09be9$04ff4f60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:31:07AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --9amGYk9869ThD9tj Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:31:07AM -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > To give you some examples of why this is so stupid, there have been a number > of security vulnerabilities posted in the last couple of years that > were repaired in publc BSD code within a day of release of knowledge > of the vulnerability, yet commercial software vendors (who purported to > be using Real Live BSD networking code) took weeks to issue patches. > Well I can tell you, this is a recipie for getting your commercial software > ejected from any self-respecting ISP. Worse; I have the nasty suspicion that a lot of them NEVER get fixed, and lurk around forever letting people who realise this fact take advantage of them. So there's a definite advantage to staying close the BSD community, even though the license doesn't require them to. Kris --9amGYk9869ThD9tj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6k5lsWry0BWjoQKURAiNMAKDOcu/KQ6j2WlalD57ju+i/z5Pm9wCglHVM +Wd+yo8Fpgdo1VVV1CimdM4= =trmM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --9amGYk9869ThD9tj-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 21 3:28: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F23E37B503 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 03:27:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f1LBRua87087 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:27:56 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200102211127.f1LBRua87087@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:27:55 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: FreshPorts 2 - call for helpers Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've just posted up a short list of things to do. These are pretty much self-contained, but should be fairly interesting for anyone that wants to do the work http://fp2.unixathome.org/todo.html thanks -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 21 5: 0:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winnie.fit.edu (winnie.fit.edu [163.118.5.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F6BA37B503 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 05:00:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kruptos@netzero.net) Received: from netzero.net (rm305w-b.campbell.fit.edu [163.118.216.112]) by winnie.fit.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA28463 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:01:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A93BC1A.F7CF6FB5@netzero.net> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:01:14 -0500 From: Kevin Brunelle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BSD licence vs GPL References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin wrote: > . . . If I'm giving it away, I'm giving it > away. This is one thing that really bothers me about GPL defenders. They seem to have a different definition of what it means to give something away. GPL'd code is not really free; you have to return your enhancements to the programmer. This is not like giving something away. If I give you a car and you add a new stereo system to it; the GPL would give me the rights to the stereo system. With the BSD license I have waived all my ownership rights to the car, requiring anything back from the next user just won't work. Will I get stuff back? Most likely. People who use free code tend to foster a desire to give free code over time. > Erm, just because a company uses a copy of my code in their closed source > program doesn't mean that the copy of the code I have given away magically > disappears. Once it is open, it is always open. Couldn't have said it better myself. Explaining it to someone who thinks the GPL is better just won't work though. I have been caught up in the debate on Slashdot before, it never ends. Kevin Brunelle -- "Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle and quick to anger." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 21 11:48:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C11B337B491 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:48:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA6B5F; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:53:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3A941B86.29F35473@acuson.com> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:48:22 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dennis Jun Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD licence vs GPL References: <046d01c09bd0$1e8bdfc0$0300a8c0@wilma> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dennis Jun wrote: > > Hello all! > > ... So I wanted to ask some people who do program and > contribute to BSD what their thoughts on this is. Does it bother you? Is > it even an issue? Much thanx in advance. It's not even an issue. I don't contribute to any BSD OS project, but all of my own software is under the BSD license. I use the BSD license because I want to share my code with the world, pure and simple. I'm not giving it away, or I would place it in the public domain. And I'm not keeping all to myself, by making it proprietary and selling rights to use it. I'm just sharing it. And sharing means no strings attached. The FSF talks a lot about freedom, but software licensing has very little to do with freedom. First, Free Software is not similar to Free Speech. Not even close. Preventing developers from distributing their works under proprietary licenses would be a *violation* of their free speech. Second, claiming that the GPL is more free than the BSDL because it has more restrictions is ludicrous. That's like arguing you can't have free elections in a democracy because otherwise a monarch might run for office and win. What if someone came along and created a closed source derivative of my code and made a million bucks off of it? I would be pissed. But it wouldn't matter. I get pissed all the time at the numbskulls that keep electing morons into public office, but I'm not about to restrict their freedom to vote. If the reason your friend is gung-ho over the GPL is the freedom issue, then he needs to learn more about freedom. Freedom is not convenient. Freedom is not safe. Freedom is not conformity. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 21 12:21:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF9937B401 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:21:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA67190; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:21:43 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A93BC1A.F7CF6FB5@netzero.net> References: <3A93BC1A.F7CF6FB5@netzero.net> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:21:41 -0500 To: Kevin Brunelle , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: BSD licence vs GPL Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 8:01 AM -0500 2/21/01, Kevin Brunelle wrote: >John Baldwin wrote: > > . . . If I'm giving it away, I'm giving it away. > >This is one thing that really bothers me about GPL defenders. >They seem to have a different definition of what it means to >give something away. GPL'd code is not really free; you have >to return your enhancements to the programmer. Let's just talk about what your feelings are about code you write, and not get too upset about how other people feel about code they write. It is tricky to talk about these religious issues without descending into some kind of mud-slinging contest, but it would be nice if we could do it. My opinion is that if you write the code, you have the right to choose the license for it. For the things I work on ("systems-level" things), I think a BSD-license works fine and I am quite comfortable with it. I can see that others might not feel comfortable with it for other projects, as they want to be sure that their original intent ("open source") is maintained. For something as large as an entire operating-system project, the first hurdle is to have that OS doing "enough" to make it worthwhile for a large enough group of people. It maybe that a GNU-style license is useful at that stage. However, once you DO have enough people contributing to the project, then the danger of a "closed-source" fork running away with the project is pretty minor. You would need too many full-time employees dedicated to just keeping up with the open-source version. And by letting the code be used in "more commercial" projects, my feeling is that you're MORE likely to get contributions from companies for the open-source project you are interested in, even if they hold a back some portion of their source code for themselves. Just my opinion. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 21 17:12:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rmx194-mta.mail.com (rmx194-mta.mail.com [165.251.48.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F3E37B503; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:12:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from codeman@allergist.com) Received: from web572-mc (web572-mc.mail.com [165.251.48.101]) by rmx194-mta.mail.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA02459; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:12:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <381982675.982804369107.JavaMail.root@web572-mc> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:12:49 -0500 (EST) From: CodeMan Joe To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: All your RMS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 206.133.226.168 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Look what RMS said NOW! What a jerk he is! Everyone hate RMS now! He is a *LUDDIE*. http://www.angelfire.com/geek/rms/ ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 21 17:47:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from linux.purenetfx.com (linux.purenetfx.com [207.179.24.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CB4737B503; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:47:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@gzmarketing.com) Received: from picard ([207.179.24.38]) by linux.purenetfx.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA24665; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:47:16 -0700 Message-ID: <000901c09c71$68ecc9c0$2618b3cf@picard> From: "Brian T. Allen" To: "CodeMan Joe" , , References: <381982675.982804369107.JavaMail.root@web572-mc> Subject: Re: All your RMS Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:47:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG That's funny, I didn't know RMS spoke in broken english... > Look what RMS said NOW! > > What a jerk he is! Everyone hate RMS now! He is a *LUDDIE*. > > http://www.angelfire.com/geek/rms/ > > > ______________________________________________ > FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com > Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 21 18: 2:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DEA7E37B491 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:02:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ceren@magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 60933 invoked by uid 1114); 22 Feb 2001 02:03:46 -0000 Date: 21 Feb 2001 18:03:46 -0800 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:03:46 -0800 (PST) From: Ceren Ercen To: "Brian T. Allen" Cc: CodeMan Joe , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: All your RMS In-Reply-To: <000901c09c71$68ecc9c0$2618b3cf@picard> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Before this thread continues, here. Read, don't discuss. :P Mostly because every single other mailing list in the entire world is already talking about this. http://members.nbci.com/allyourbase/AYB2.swf And here's the explanation: http://www.nulldevice.net/nuke/html/article.php?sid=85 Yes, it's shockwave, and that makes me sad. grr. - Ceren E. FreeBSD's "Strange Attractor" On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Brian T. Allen wrote: > That's funny, I didn't know RMS spoke in broken english... > > > > Look what RMS said NOW! > > > > What a jerk he is! Everyone hate RMS now! He is a *LUDDIE*. > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/geek/rms/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Feb 21 20:43:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F7F37B4EC for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:43:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA14761; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:38:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAvOaGUC; Wed Feb 21 21:38:25 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA06187; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:43:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102220443.VAA06187@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: All your RMS To: ceren@magnesium.net (Ceren Ercen) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 04:43:27 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brian@gzmarketing.com (Brian T. Allen), codeman@allergist.com (CodeMan Joe), freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Ceren Ercen" at Feb 21, 2001 06:03:46 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Before this thread continues, here. > > Read, don't discuss. :P Mostly because every single other mailing list > in the entire world is already talking about this. > > http://members.nbci.com/allyourbase/AYB2.swf > > And here's the explanation: > > http://www.nulldevice.net/nuke/html/article.php?sid=85 > > Yes, it's shockwave, and that makes me sad. grr. There's now a GPL'ed flash player plugin for Mozilla. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 22 0:43: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143BD37B65D for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:43:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f1M8h2722297; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:43:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "David Johnson" , "Dennis Jun" Cc: Subject: RE: BSD licence vs GPL Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:43:02 -0800 Message-ID: <004601c09cab$7750d260$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <3A941B86.29F35473@acuson.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of David Johnson > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 11:48 AM > To: Dennis Jun > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: BSD licence vs GPL > > > Dennis Jun wrote: > > What if someone came along and created a closed source derivative of my > code and made a million bucks off of it? I would be pissed. But it Why? They undoubtedly would be first in line wanting to hire you - who better to work on the source for them than the one who wrote it! :-) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 22 2:25:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2765E37B491 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:25:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f1MAPHa02361; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:25:17 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200102221025.f1MAPHa02361@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Ceren Ercen Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:25:16 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: All your RMS Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000901c09c71$68ecc9c0$2618b3cf@picard> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 21 Feb 2001, at 18:03, Ceren Ercen wrote: > > > Before this thread continues, here. > > Read, don't discuss. :P Mostly because every single other mailing list in > the entire world is already talking about this. > > http://members.nbci.com/allyourbase/AYB2.swf The above URL takes me to http://fourohfour.nbci.com/MP3404Error.php3 to give "Member page not found...". -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 22 2:51:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from dehumanizer.meganet.pt (hyperion.meganet.pt [194.38.131.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 483E037B401 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:51:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from deh@dehumanizer.meganet.pt) Received: by dehumanizer.meganet.pt (Postfix, from userid 501) id D04A41F3E5; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:51:09 +0000 (WET) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:51:09 +0000 From: Pedro Timoteo To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD licence vs GPL Message-ID: <20010222105109.A30756@meganet.pt> References: <046d01c09bd0$1e8bdfc0$0300a8c0@wilma> <3A941B86.29F35473@acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A941B86.29F35473@acuson.com>; from djohnson@acuson.com on Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 11:48:22AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 11:48:22AM -0800, David Johnson wrote: > it has more restrictions is ludicrous. That's like arguing you can't > have free elections in a democracy because otherwise a monarch might run > for office and win. Or it could be said that it's like saying that no matter who wins the free elections, you can't change it from a democracy to a monarchy... I'm not saying that this is my opinion, but the GPL *can* be interpreted like this. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 22 2:54:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-165-226-53.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.165.226.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F21037B4EC for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:54:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id ACB8366F37; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:54:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:54:44 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Dan Langille Cc: Ceren Ercen , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: All your RMS Message-ID: <20010222025444.A83395@mollari.cthul.hu> References: <000901c09c71$68ecc9c0$2618b3cf@picard> <200102221025.f1MAPHa02361@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6TrnltStXW4iwmi0" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200102221025.f1MAPHa02361@ns1.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 11:25:16PM +1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --6TrnltStXW4iwmi0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 11:25:16PM +1300, Dan Langille wrote: > On 21 Feb 2001, at 18:03, Ceren Ercen wrote: >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Before this thread continues, here. > >=20 > > Read, don't discuss. :P Mostly because every single other mailing list = in > > the entire world is already talking about this. > >=20 > > http://members.nbci.com/allyourbase/AYB2.swf >=20 > The above URL takes me to=20 > http://fourohfour.nbci.com/MP3404Error.php3 to give "Member page not=20 > found...". Thank god :-) Kris --6TrnltStXW4iwmi0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6lO/0Wry0BWjoQKURAtzfAJ955H7ak71pOyZHJPfFtTPMNlfhOACgqgh5 gT7G053keq5T2kDv0dZayhw= =Guh5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6TrnltStXW4iwmi0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 22 2:57:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8BD737B4EC for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:57:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f1MAuma02765; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:56:48 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200102221056.f1MAuma02765@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Kris Kennaway Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:56:46 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: All your RMS Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <20010222025444.A83395@mollari.cthul.hu> References: <200102221025.f1MAPHa02361@ns1.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 11:25:16PM +1300 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 22 Feb 2001, at 2:54, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Thank god :-) Well, after reading the first post in this thread, I was about to reply along the lines of "this type of thing doesn't belong in advocacy. Please try /. instead." but then I saw the existing replies. /me too slow -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 22 10: 7:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7B1537B503 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:07:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAAEC3; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:12:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3A955578.CB84F89C@acuson.com> Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:07:52 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD licence vs GPL References: <004601c09cab$7750d260$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > What if someone came along and created a closed source derivative of my > > code and made a million bucks off of it? I would be pissed. But it > > Why? They undoubtedly would be first in line wanting to hire you - who > better to work on the source for them than the one who wrote it! :-) Well then! That would evaporate my pissiness in short order! The point I was trying to make is that 99% of life is people doing what you don't want them to do. At some point you have to stop trying to mold the world into your own image and start learning to live with it. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Feb 22 12:52:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BFD2F37B503 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:52:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ceren@magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 90346 invoked by uid 1114); 22 Feb 2001 20:54:21 -0000 Date: 22 Feb 2001 12:54:21 -0800 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:54:21 -0800 (PST) From: Ceren Ercen To: Dan White Cc: Terry Lambert , "Brian T. Allen" , CodeMan Joe , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: All your RMS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~pyang/base/allyourbase.swf sorry. mirrors are going down fast. too much traffic. - Ceren On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Dan White wrote: > > > > Read, don't discuss. :P Mostly because every single other mailing list > > > in the entire world is already talking about this. > > > > > > http://members.nbci.com/allyourbase/AYB2.swf > > > This is a broken link, anyone have a mirror or something similar? > > Dan White > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Feb 23 9:28:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A48B337B401 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:28:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14WMAv-0000q1-00; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:38:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3A96A01D.492D82FD@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:38:37 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Johnson Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD licence vs GPL References: <004601c09cab$7750d260$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3A955578.CB84F89C@acuson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Johnson wrote: > > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > > What if someone came along and created a closed source derivative of my > > > code and made a million bucks off of it? I would be pissed. But it > > > > Why? They undoubtedly would be first in line wanting to hire you - who > > better to work on the source for them than the one who wrote it! :-) > > Well then! That would evaporate my pissiness in short order! > > The point I was trying to make is that 99% of life is people doing what > you don't want them to do. At some point you have to stop trying to mold > the world into your own image and start learning to live with it. Right. The claims of the GPL hordes about "stealing" BSD-licensed code is just ludicrous, you cannot steal something that is freely given away. If you don't want to freely give away your code, don't use the BSD license. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 24 13: 9:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F28637B4EC for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:09:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14Wm6F-00023g-00; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:19:31 -0700 Message-ID: <3A982563.407C41F2@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:19:31 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , Dennis Jun , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD licence vs GPL References: <046d01c09bd0$1e8bdfc0$0300a8c0@wilma> <007101c09be9$04ff4f60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010221023316.A49953@mollari.cthul.hu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 01:31:07AM -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > To give you some examples of why this is so stupid, there have been a number > > of security vulnerabilities posted in the last couple of years that > > were repaired in publc BSD code within a day of release of knowledge > > of the vulnerability, yet commercial software vendors (who purported to > > be using Real Live BSD networking code) took weeks to issue patches. > > Well I can tell you, this is a recipie for getting your commercial software > > ejected from any self-respecting ISP. > > Worse; I have the nasty suspicion that a lot of them NEVER get fixed, > and lurk around forever letting people who realise this fact take > advantage of them. So there's a definite advantage to staying close > the BSD community, even though the license doesn't require them to. This fits quite well in Terry's theory of "enlightened self-interest", that drives companies to contribute their changes back to BSDL projects. Staying close to the current releases makes it a lot easier to apply critical fixes as they become available, just as contributing your own fixes (and additions) to the system back allows others to maintain them for you. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 24 13:38:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90FC037B491 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:38:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14WmYX-00024G-00; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:48:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3A982C3D.ED8E7FC3@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:48:45 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dennis Jun Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD licence vs GPL References: <046d01c09bd0$1e8bdfc0$0300a8c0@wilma> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dennis Jun wrote: > > Hello all! > > A Linux friend of mine and I were chatting bout the BSD licence versus the > GPL. He was asking me how *BSD developers felt about that their code could > (and has) being used by commercial companies and in turn becomes closed in > the end. That is, you don't know if your code will stay open or not. He > asked doesn't that bother BSD developers? I thought this was a very > interesting question. I couldn't give him a really good answer since I'm > not a programmer. So I wanted to ask some people who do program and > contribute to BSD what their thoughts on this is. Does it bother you? Is > it even an issue? Much thanx in advance. Sorry to reply so late, I had a connectivity interruption Wednesday. Let's look at this the other way around: "Gee, I just hate it when my ISP's routers get that bug fix I wrote last week." I think there are a lot of programs that are very suitable for the GPL. The GIMP, GCC/GDB/binutils, and most other tools programs are not harmed in any way by the GPL. Infrastructure elements like operating systems, libraries, and server programs may be, if it discourages vendors from using the code. My strongest complaint w.r.t. the GPL is that there are much better licenses that actually provide the protection the GPL seeks, without the political rhetoric and ambiguity of the GPL. Two that come immediately to mind are the IBM Public License and the Cygnus (now Root Hack, I guess) eCOS License. http://oss.software.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/license10.html http://www.redhat.com/embedded/technologies/ecos/ecoslicense.html The eCOS license requires modifications to eCOS itself to be contributed back or made publically available, while the IBM license does not. Both clearly state, in legal terminology, that you are allowed to make and distribute binary products that use the original software without requiring your proprietary code to be covered by the license. Both also accomplish the goal of making sure the covered software is usable in commercial products, so that even Joe Sixpack can benefit from it. RMS *thinks* he is building software for the masses, but which do you think has a larger installed base, Emacs or the code in cable tv set-top boxes? GCC or the Ford or GM engine-management code? Linux or the code running in Casio watches? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 24 13:43:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9099237B4EC for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:43:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14Wmde-00024M-00; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:54:02 -0700 Message-ID: <3A982D79.3335694A@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:54:01 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Itty bitty boxes dislodge PCs? (No longer RMS) References: <003001c09bc9$314aeea0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > Your never going to see anything come along and dislodge C and C++ from their > positions, Funny, "they" said that about C over Pascal, and C++ over C. > just as your never going to see a special-purpose PC (like a > webTV box or a Sony Playstation) dislodge the general purpose desktop PC. Dislodge the PC from what? Sales numbers that are a couple of orders of magnitude SMALLER than the market for Playstations? Gee, thats a market to go after. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 24 16:43:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hecky.it.northwestern.edu (hecky.acns.nwu.edu [129.105.16.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE0B837B491 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 16:43:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuyman@confusion.net) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by hecky.it.northwestern.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29717; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 18:43:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from confusion.net (dhcp089069.res-hall.nwu.edu [199.74.89.69]) by hecky.acns.nwu.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma029690; Sat, 24 Feb 01 18:43:31 -0600 Message-ID: <3A985559.6E0F6265@confusion.net> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 18:44:09 -0600 From: Laurence Berland X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Johnson Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again References: <200102202203.PAA28567@usr05.primenet.com> <3A92F1EE.C31EB50@acuson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Johnson wrote: > Bingo! The premise of the GPL is that the user is prone to immorality > and unreason. The premise of the BSDL is that the user is competent, > rational and moral. And this attitude isn't lost on the user. Case in > point: Steve Jobs only released the NeXT Objective C front end under the > GPL because he was threatened by legal action, but he released Darwin > under the APSL and donated lots back to FreeBSD > _without_even_being_asked_to! > To clarify, I think it's less that the BSDL assumes all users are competent, rational, and moral, than it assumes that people taken as a whole do, such that a small portion lacking in these traits can't manage to do serious harm, and that it's worth the small setbacks they'll create in order to realize the larger benefits that essentially unlimited pooling of human thought vis a vis the collaborative process will bring. GPL just ties people up in red tape, and doesn't give them a choice. People always get angry when they don't have a choice, and usually will choose the opposing view (this is perfectly rational, it makes it easier to demonstrate that you don't agree with what's being forced on you, and it makes a clear protest). Given the choice to do whatever they want, most people (and hence society at large) will do the right thing. > David > > Laurence Berland Intern, Flooz.com Northwestern '04 stuyman@confusion.net http://www.isp.northwestern.edu/~laurence "The world has turned and left me here" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Feb 24 18:24:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hecky.it.northwestern.edu (hecky.acns.nwu.edu [129.105.16.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD0FD37B491; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 18:24:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuyman@confusion.net) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by hecky.it.northwestern.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA22165; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:24:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from confusion.net (dhcp089069.res-hall.nwu.edu [199.74.89.69]) by hecky.acns.nwu.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma022113; Sat, 24 Feb 01 20:24:18 -0600 Message-ID: <3A986CF8.542845C9@confusion.net> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:24:56 -0600 From: Laurence Berland X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Brian T. Allen" Cc: CodeMan Joe , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: All your RMS References: <381982675.982804369107.JavaMail.root@web572-mc> <000901c09c71$68ecc9c0$2618b3cf@picard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://isp.nwu.edu/~laurence click the animated gif at the top... "Brian T. Allen" wrote: > > That's funny, I didn't know RMS spoke in broken english... > > > Look what RMS said NOW! > > > > What a jerk he is! Everyone hate RMS now! He is a *LUDDIE*. > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/geek/rms/ > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com > > Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message -- Laurence Berland Intern, Flooz.com Northwestern '04 stuyman@confusion.net http://www.isp.northwestern.edu/~laurence "The world has turned and left me here" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message