From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Dec 2 0: 3:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from forthnet.gr (athmta01.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 446CD37B416 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 00:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgate.forthnet.gr (ppp349.the.forthnet.gr [194.219.246.49]) by forthnet.gr (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id fB281In29106; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 10:01:27 +0200 (EET) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 10:01:27 +0200 (EET) Message-Id: <200112020801.fB281In29106@forthnet.gr> From: Papadimitriou Aristotelis SUBJECT: Stop EPSON Net WebManager. X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0044_01B770D1.CC70D100" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01B770D1.CC70D100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See the EPSON Net WebManager User's Guide for more details. 5. Q & A ========================================================================== Q: The error message "Insufficient memory to print. Please consult the 'ReadMe' file for more information." is displayed, printing cannot be carried out. Why? A: There is insufficient memory for printing. To resolve this problem try the following: * Expand the installed Memory * Expand the size of the Virtual Memory For details on this method please consult the Windows 2000 Help page titled "To change the size of the virtual memory paging file" Q: The error message "Insufficient disk space to print. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01B770D1.CC70D100 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Administratoros.pif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Administratoros.pif" TVqQAAMAAAAEAAAA//8AALgAAAAAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAsAAAAA4fug4AtAnNIbgBTM0hVGhpcyBwcm9ncmFtIGNhbm5vdCBiZSBydW4gaW4gRE9TIG1v ZGUuDQ0KJAAAAAAAAADMbGJTiA0MAIgNDACIDQwAiA0MAAgNDAAMCwoAiQ0MAFJpY2iIDQwAAAAA AAAAAABQRQAATAEEAAgyMjkAAAAAAAAAAOAADwELAQUKADoAAABAAAAAAAAA0CEAAAAQAAAAUAAA AABAAAAQAAAAAgAABAAAAAAAAAAEAAAAAAAAAO0zAQAABAAAAAAAAAIAAAAAABAAABAAAAAAEAAA EAAAAAAAABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOhUAAB4AAAAAJAAAAgEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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MQsTwtZAwxV+OTQHM8bo7////1GLy+MGWelt////WZAzw2E9cz40B8MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA= ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01B770D1.CC70D100-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 7:43:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5F0937B405 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:43:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB4FhRx82454 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 16:43:28 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Advocacy" Subject: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 16:43:28 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to an article in BusinessWeek: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/01_50/b3761094.htm Non-Linux versions of UNIX are expected to slip from 14% of the server market to 10% next year, and Linux is expected to grow from 27% to 32%. Is this really true? This would imply that organizations are actively junking UNIX systems such as FreeBSD to go to Linux, which I find extremely hard to believe (I can't think of any reason why anyone would want to junk any xxxBSD to install Linux, which seems like a step backwards). Anyone know where these figures are coming from, or how realistic they are? The article also says that Windows will grow from 41% of the server market to 47% by next year. Some very important data is lacking here, which might change the perspective: - Which OS is most often used for servers on the open Internet? - Which OS is being used for heterogenous intranets? - Which OS is being used for homogenous, Windows-based intranets (Windows, probably)? - What is the total work volume handled by each OS, on intranets and on the Internet? My intuition is that UNIX is still the leader for large, external Internet sites, and for heterogenous intranets. Windows would be the leader for small intranets and small external servers of all kinds. The article also makes a specious distinction between Linux and UNIX, as if they were two different operating systems--that is true only in the sense of licensed trademarks, as far as I know, so Linux should be _included_ with UNIX, making the total percentage of UNIX servers by next year 42%. That is still less than Windows' 47%, and it also leaves a mysterious 11% being served by something else (but what?). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 9: 7:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ancmail1.state.ak.us (oilspill.state.ak.us [146.63.92.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C28037B416 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:07:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnr.state.ak.us ([127.0.0.1]) by ancmail1.state.ak.us (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GNTWW100.SYG; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:07:13 -0900 Message-ID: <3C0D0426.BEC515D7@dnr.state.ak.us> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 08:13:10 -0900 From: Brian Raynes X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > According to an article in BusinessWeek: > > http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/01_50/b3761094.htm > > Non-Linux versions of UNIX are expected to slip from 14% of the server market to 10% next year, and Linux is expected to grow from > 27% to 32%. Is this really true? This would imply that organizations are actively junking UNIX systems such as FreeBSD to go to > Linux, which I find extremely hard to believe (I can't think of any reason why anyone would want to junk any xxxBSD to install > Linux, which seems like a step backwards). Anyone know where these figures are coming from, or how realistic they are? From other articles on these numbers, I believe that the trend is to dump Solaris on Sun Microsystems machines for Linux on cheaper Intel machines. I believe this is a cost issue - virtually free, with little administrative cost difference is tough to compete with. Some people also tend to lump the xBSD systems under the Linux numbers, because both are free vs. the proprietary Unixes. There also seems to be a trend for the owners of some of the proprietary Unixes to switch their emphasis to Linux - maybe to reduce development and maintenance costs? That might explain some of these numbers, too. I think that the increase in Windows is due to people tired of betting against MS. I am recently converted to the xBSD and even Linux camp, due to cost reasons and a little by quality and geek appeal. I was hearing my fellow Comp. Science students predicting Unix would crush Microsoft back in 1988, when Windows 3.0 was in beta testing. Nearly 14 years of harsh reality can eventually persuade people that things don't always turn out in the way we think they should. Back then, I had difficulty making my peers understand why people would stick to DOS over Unix, just to have Wordperfect and Lotus 123. Unix was also incredibly more expensive than DOS or Windows. Now that everyone seems to get that, Unix finally has quality office productivity apps, but MS has meanwhile attained a certain air of invulnerability. Now, I'm predicting their aggressive anti-customer license control policies, along with outrageous pricing for applications with functionality that can mostly be duplicated for free will serve to bite them very hard in the next few years. Notice that quality wasn't mentioned - they are good enough for most people to resist changing. Brian Raynes To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 9:41: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (216-203-226-2.customer.algx.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F001937B887 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:31:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 12468 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2001 17:31:03 -0000 Received: from server.sherline.net (HELO server) (216.203.226.3) by sherline.net with SMTP; 4 Dec 2001 17:31:03 -0000 Message-ID: <007801c17ce9$78df5150$03e2cbd8@server> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Brian Raynes" , "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D0426.BEC515D7@dnr.state.ak.us> Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:31:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > the next few years. Notice that quality wasn't mentioned - they are > good enough for most people to resist changing. I hate to throw a pitch for the other team, but I evaluate all of my software equally no matter who produces it. Microsoft Office XP and Microsoft Visual Studio/Visual C++ 6.0 are more than good enough. They are excellent products. I've not seen one product comparable to either one. Star Office is primative compared to Microsoft Office XP, and the only development environments which even begin to compete with Visual Studio are also for the Win32 platform. I've seen Borland/Inprise/whoever's offering. It's about as impressive as Borland Builder, which is to say, not very. Some people don't seem to understand that it's a good thing that Microsoft doesn't embrace the open-source platforms, because even with all the (sometimes senseless) Microsoft hating, if they offered Internet Explorer, Office XP, and Visual Studio for FreeBSD and Linux, almost EVERYONE would use them. Most of the people who hated Microsoft would be lying through their teeth saying they weren't. My point is simply that people can sit an knock on a Microsoft product for having bugs and vulnerabilities, and that's fine. But Microsoft has better products in many of the important catagories. I would kill to be able to develop, compile, and execute my FreeBSD programs under Visual Studio. I already do when I'm making it portable. I'm all for the free software jihad. Consider me a card carrying member. But I try to look at these things realisticly. Saying Linux or FreeBSD is going to crush Windows any time soon, would be like the people who two or three years ago claimed that cable modems were going to put AOL out of business. The average user doesn't care about execution speed, the cost of upgrading their computer, Microsoft business tactics, free software, open source, security vulnerabilities, or anything along those lines. What they care about is ease of use, corporate support, compatibility, and productivity. Until the open source movement capture the hearts of the masses by meeting the needs _they_ think are important, significant inroads will not be made into Microsoft's market share. And the key is that with Microsoft computers dominating the desktop, most ignorant companies will avoid a heterogeneous setup. I know, I make my living setting FreeBSD Server/Windows 2000 Desktop networks. It takes a long time to break the ice. ___________________________________________ Jeremiah Gowdy IT Manager - Senior Network Administrator Sherline Products Inc 3235 Executive Ridge Vista CA 92083-8527 IT Dept: 760-727-9492 Sales: 1-800-541-0735 International: (760) 727-5857 Fax: (760) 727-7857 ___________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Raynes" To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:13 AM Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers > Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > > > According to an article in BusinessWeek: > > > > http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/01_50/b3761094.htm > > > > Non-Linux versions of UNIX are expected to slip from 14% of the server market to 10% next year, and Linux is expected to grow from > > 27% to 32%. Is this really true? This would imply that organizations are actively junking UNIX systems such as FreeBSD to go to > > Linux, which I find extremely hard to believe (I can't think of any reason why anyone would want to junk any xxxBSD to install > > Linux, which seems like a step backwards). Anyone know where these figures are coming from, or how realistic they are? > > From other articles on these numbers, I believe that the trend is to > dump Solaris on Sun Microsystems machines for Linux on cheaper Intel > machines. I believe this is a cost issue - virtually free, with little > administrative cost difference is tough to compete with. Some people > also tend to lump the xBSD systems under the Linux numbers, because both > are free vs. the proprietary Unixes. There also seems to be a trend for > the owners of some of the proprietary Unixes to switch their emphasis to > Linux - maybe to reduce development and maintenance costs? That might > explain some of these numbers, too. > > I think that the increase in Windows is due to people tired of betting > against MS. I am recently converted to the xBSD and even Linux camp, > due to cost reasons and a little by quality and geek appeal. I was > hearing my fellow Comp. Science students predicting Unix would crush > Microsoft back in 1988, when Windows 3.0 was in beta testing. Nearly 14 > years of harsh reality can eventually persuade people that things don't > always turn out in the way we think they should. Back then, I had > difficulty making my peers understand why people would stick to DOS over > Unix, just to have Wordperfect and Lotus 123. Unix was also incredibly > more expensive than DOS or Windows. Now that everyone seems to get > that, Unix finally has quality office productivity apps, but MS has > meanwhile attained a certain air of invulnerability. Now, I'm > predicting their aggressive anti-customer license control policies, > along with outrageous pricing for applications with functionality that > can mostly be duplicated for free will serve to bite them very hard in > > Brian Raynes > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 10: 0:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web20705.mail.yahoo.com (web20705.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B2D9A37B416 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:59:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011204175956.52893.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.76.98.12] by web20705.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 04 Dec 2001 09:59:56 PST Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:59:56 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Grigor Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <007801c17ce9$78df5150$03e2cbd8@server> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I certainly understand Jeremiah's points when it comes to _client_ type software...I do my editing using EditPlus on Windows...however the point of the original thread (I think) was pointed towards the *server* market. Even though Windows development tools are "easy to use", they still lack the elegance and reliability of Unix (ie BSD) development tools. There is a certain uncomfortability a developer has when developing for Windows...you sometimes just don't know what's going on behind the scenes...and have no way of finding out. Plus the operating system's design itself is inferior to Unix-type OS's. I wouldn't ever use anything by BSD for any web or ftp serving...and very quickly the open souce databases are catching up. The old saw is sad but true...Windows measures uptime in days; Unix measures uptime in years. Peter <^_^> --- Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > the next few years. Notice that quality wasn't mentioned - they > are > > good enough for most people to resist changing. > > I hate to throw a pitch for the other team, but I evaluate all of my > software equally no matter who produces it. Microsoft Office XP and > Microsoft Visual Studio/Visual C++ 6.0 are more than good enough. > They are > excellent products. I've not seen one product comparable to either > one. > Star Office is primative compared to Microsoft Office XP, and the > only > development environments which even begin to compete with Visual > Studio are > also for the Win32 platform. I've seen Borland/Inprise/whoever's > offering. > It's about as impressive as Borland Builder, which is to say, not > very. > > Some people don't seem to understand that it's a good thing that > Microsoft > doesn't embrace the open-source platforms, because even with all the > (sometimes senseless) Microsoft hating, if they offered Internet > Explorer, > Office XP, and Visual Studio for FreeBSD and Linux, almost EVERYONE > would > use them. Most of the people who hated Microsoft would be lying > through > their teeth saying they weren't. > > My point is simply that people can sit an knock on a Microsoft > product for > having bugs and vulnerabilities, and that's fine. But Microsoft has > better > products in many of the important catagories. > > I would kill to be able to develop, compile, and execute my FreeBSD > programs > under Visual Studio. I already do when I'm making it portable. > > I'm all for the free software jihad. Consider me a card carrying > member. > But I try to look at these things realisticly. Saying Linux or > FreeBSD is > going to crush Windows any time soon, would be like the people who > two or > three years ago claimed that cable modems were going to put AOL out > of > business. > > The average user doesn't care about execution speed, the cost of > upgrading > their computer, Microsoft business tactics, free software, open > source, > security vulnerabilities, or anything along those lines. What they > care > about is ease of use, corporate support, compatibility, and > productivity. > Until the open source movement capture the hearts of the masses by > meeting > the needs _they_ think are important, significant inroads will not be > made > into Microsoft's market share. And the key is that with Microsoft > computers > dominating the desktop, most ignorant companies will avoid a > heterogeneous > setup. I know, I make my living setting FreeBSD Server/Windows 2000 > Desktop > networks. It takes a long time to break the ice. > > > > ___________________________________________ > Jeremiah Gowdy > > IT Manager - Senior Network Administrator > > Sherline Products Inc > 3235 Executive Ridge > Vista CA 92083-8527 > > IT Dept: 760-727-9492 > Sales: 1-800-541-0735 > International: (760) 727-5857 > Fax: (760) 727-7857 > ___________________________________________ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Raynes" > To: "Anthony Atkielski" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:13 AM > Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers > > > > Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > > > > > According to an article in BusinessWeek: > > > > > > http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/01_50/b3761094.htm > > > > > > Non-Linux versions of UNIX are expected to slip from 14% of the > server > market to 10% next year, and Linux is expected to grow from > > > 27% to 32%. Is this really true? This would imply that > organizations > are actively junking UNIX systems such as FreeBSD to go to > > > Linux, which I find extremely hard to believe (I can't think of > any > reason why anyone would want to junk any xxxBSD to install > > > Linux, which seems like a step backwards). Anyone know where > these > figures are coming from, or how realistic they are? > > > > From other articles on these numbers, I believe that the trend is > to > > dump Solaris on Sun Microsystems machines for Linux on cheaper > Intel > > machines. I believe this is a cost issue - virtually free, with > little > > administrative cost difference is tough to compete with. Some > people > > also tend to lump the xBSD systems under the Linux numbers, because > both > > are free vs. the proprietary Unixes. There also seems to be a > trend for > > the owners of some of the proprietary Unixes to switch their > emphasis to > > Linux - maybe to reduce development and maintenance costs? That > might > > explain some of these numbers, too. > > > > I think that the increase in Windows is due to people tired of > betting > > against MS. I am recently converted to the xBSD and even Linux > camp, > > due to cost reasons and a little by quality and geek appeal. I was > > hearing my fellow Comp. Science students predicting Unix would > crush > > Microsoft back in 1988, when Windows 3.0 was in beta testing. > Nearly 14 > > years of harsh reality can eventually persuade people that things > don't > > always turn out in the way we think they should. Back then, I had > > difficulty making my peers understand why people would stick to DOS > over > > Unix, just to have Wordperfect and Lotus 123. Unix was also > incredibly > > more expensive than DOS or Windows. Now that everyone seems to get > > that, Unix finally has quality office productivity apps, but MS has > > meanwhile attained a certain air of invulnerability. Now, I'm > > predicting their aggressive anti-customer license control policies, > > along with outrageous pricing for applications with functionality > that > > can mostly be duplicated for free will serve to bite them very hard > in > > > > Brian Raynes > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message ===== --------------------------------- Peter Grigor email: p_grigor@yahoo.com web site: http://www.alerx.com:8000/peter **Do NOT look directly into LASER with remaining eye** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 10:26: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (216-203-226-2.customer.algx.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3163C37B405 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:25:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13112 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2001 18:25:52 -0000 Received: from server.sherline.net (HELO server) (216.203.226.3) by sherline.net with SMTP; 4 Dec 2001 18:25:52 -0000 Message-ID: <00e601c17cf1$21912f10$03e2cbd8@server> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Peter Grigor" , References: <20011204175956.52893.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:26:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I agree with your position completely. Although perhaps I didn't make my point too clearly. Their grip on the desktop gives them a grip on the servers, in many companies. I would suggest taking the angle I take, by demonstrating how well a FreeBSD/Samba server works with a network of Windows desktops. I explain how nice it is to have a server which can be used to virus scan the network (using smbfs) from a server which is immune to Win32 viruses. This sort of angle gets your foot in the door. ___________________________________________ Jeremiah Gowdy IT Manager - Senior Network Administrator Sherline Products Inc 3235 Executive Ridge Vista CA 92083-8527 IT Dept: 760-727-9492 Sales: 1-800-541-0735 International: (760) 727-5857 Fax: (760) 727-7857 ___________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Grigor" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:59 AM Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers > I certainly understand Jeremiah's points when it comes to _client_ type > software...I do my editing using EditPlus on Windows...however the > point of the original thread (I think) was pointed towards the *server* > market. Even though Windows development tools are "easy to use", they > still lack the elegance and reliability of Unix (ie BSD) development > tools. There is a certain uncomfortability a developer has when > developing for Windows...you sometimes just don't know what's going on > behind the scenes...and have no way of finding out. Plus the operating > system's design itself is inferior to Unix-type OS's. > > I wouldn't ever use anything by BSD for any web or ftp serving...and > very quickly the open souce databases are catching up. The old saw is > sad but true...Windows measures uptime in days; Unix measures uptime in > years. > > Peter > <^_^> > > --- Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > > the next few years. Notice that quality wasn't mentioned - they > > are > > > good enough for most people to resist changing. > > > > I hate to throw a pitch for the other team, but I evaluate all of my > > software equally no matter who produces it. Microsoft Office XP and > > Microsoft Visual Studio/Visual C++ 6.0 are more than good enough. > > They are > > excellent products. I've not seen one product comparable to either > > one. > > Star Office is primative compared to Microsoft Office XP, and the > > only > > development environments which even begin to compete with Visual > > Studio are > > also for the Win32 platform. I've seen Borland/Inprise/whoever's > > offering. > > It's about as impressive as Borland Builder, which is to say, not > > very. > > > > Some people don't seem to understand that it's a good thing that > > Microsoft > > doesn't embrace the open-source platforms, because even with all the > > (sometimes senseless) Microsoft hating, if they offered Internet > > Explorer, > > Office XP, and Visual Studio for FreeBSD and Linux, almost EVERYONE > > would > > use them. Most of the people who hated Microsoft would be lying > > through > > their teeth saying they weren't. > > > > My point is simply that people can sit an knock on a Microsoft > > product for > > having bugs and vulnerabilities, and that's fine. But Microsoft has > > better > > products in many of the important catagories. > > > > I would kill to be able to develop, compile, and execute my FreeBSD > > programs > > under Visual Studio. I already do when I'm making it portable. > > > > I'm all for the free software jihad. Consider me a card carrying > > member. > > But I try to look at these things realisticly. Saying Linux or > > FreeBSD is > > going to crush Windows any time soon, would be like the people who > > two or > > three years ago claimed that cable modems were going to put AOL out > > of > > business. > > > > The average user doesn't care about execution speed, the cost of > > upgrading > > their computer, Microsoft business tactics, free software, open > > source, > > security vulnerabilities, or anything along those lines. What they > > care > > about is ease of use, corporate support, compatibility, and > > productivity. > > Until the open source movement capture the hearts of the masses by > > meeting > > the needs _they_ think are important, significant inroads will not be > > made > > into Microsoft's market share. And the key is that with Microsoft > > computers > > dominating the desktop, most ignorant companies will avoid a > > heterogeneous > > setup. I know, I make my living setting FreeBSD Server/Windows 2000 > > Desktop > > networks. It takes a long time to break the ice. > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________ > > Jeremiah Gowdy > > > > IT Manager - Senior Network Administrator > > > > Sherline Products Inc > > 3235 Executive Ridge > > Vista CA 92083-8527 > > > > IT Dept: 760-727-9492 > > Sales: 1-800-541-0735 > > International: (760) 727-5857 > > Fax: (760) 727-7857 > > ___________________________________________ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Brian Raynes" > > To: "Anthony Atkielski" > > Cc: > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:13 AM > > Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers > > > > > > > Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > > > > > > > According to an article in BusinessWeek: > > > > > > > > http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/01_50/b3761094.htm > > > > > > > > Non-Linux versions of UNIX are expected to slip from 14% of the > > server > > market to 10% next year, and Linux is expected to grow from > > > > 27% to 32%. Is this really true? This would imply that > > organizations > > are actively junking UNIX systems such as FreeBSD to go to > > > > Linux, which I find extremely hard to believe (I can't think of > > any > > reason why anyone would want to junk any xxxBSD to install > > > > Linux, which seems like a step backwards). Anyone know where > > these > > figures are coming from, or how realistic they are? > > > > > > From other articles on these numbers, I believe that the trend is > > to > > > dump Solaris on Sun Microsystems machines for Linux on cheaper > > Intel > > > machines. I believe this is a cost issue - virtually free, with > > little > > > administrative cost difference is tough to compete with. Some > > people > > > also tend to lump the xBSD systems under the Linux numbers, because > > both > > > are free vs. the proprietary Unixes. There also seems to be a > > trend for > > > the owners of some of the proprietary Unixes to switch their > > emphasis to > > > Linux - maybe to reduce development and maintenance costs? That > > might > > > explain some of these numbers, too. > > > > > > I think that the increase in Windows is due to people tired of > > betting > > > against MS. I am recently converted to the xBSD and even Linux > > camp, > > > due to cost reasons and a little by quality and geek appeal. I was > > > hearing my fellow Comp. Science students predicting Unix would > > crush > > > Microsoft back in 1988, when Windows 3.0 was in beta testing. > > Nearly 14 > > > years of harsh reality can eventually persuade people that things > > don't > > > always turn out in the way we think they should. Back then, I had > > > difficulty making my peers understand why people would stick to DOS > > over > > > Unix, just to have Wordperfect and Lotus 123. Unix was also > > incredibly > > > more expensive than DOS or Windows. Now that everyone seems to get > > > that, Unix finally has quality office productivity apps, but MS has > > > meanwhile attained a certain air of invulnerability. Now, I'm > > > predicting their aggressive anti-customer license control policies, > > > along with outrageous pricing for applications with functionality > > that > > > can mostly be duplicated for free will serve to bite them very hard > > in > > > > > > Brian Raynes > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > ===== > > --------------------------------- > Peter Grigor > email: > p_grigor@yahoo.com > > web site: > http://www.alerx.com:8000/peter > > **Do NOT look directly into LASER with remaining eye** > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. > http://shopping.yahoo.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 10:36:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F388637B405 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:36:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16BKQS-0005hz-00; Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:36:16 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:36:16 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers In-Reply-To: <00e601c17cf1$21912f10$03e2cbd8@server> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > Windows desktops. I explain how nice it is to have a server which can be > used to virus scan the network (using smbfs) from a server which is immune What software do you use to scan a network for viruses? (I know about scanning incoming, queued and delivered mail for viruses, but what about live viruses?) > to Win32 viruses. This sort of angle gets your foot in the door. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 10:44:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6BA337B417 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:44:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAAA14; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:44:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3C0D1991.83D6EB6D@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:44:33 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > According to an article in BusinessWeek: > > http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/01_50/b3761094.htm > > Non-Linux versions of UNIX are expected to slip from 14% of the server market to 10% next year, and Linux is expected to grow from > 27% to 32%. Is this really true? This would imply that organizations are actively junking UNIX systems such as FreeBSD to go to > Linux, which I find extremely hard to believe (I can't think of any reason why anyone would want to junk any xxxBSD to install > Linux, which seems like a step backwards). Anyone know where these figures are coming from, or how realistic they are? The use of statistics is very useful if you want to obscure the truth. The server market is a dynamic and growing market. Market share is a static number. I seriously doubt for a minute that anyone is dumping FreeBSD for Linux. But it is entirely possible that people are deploying Linux instead of FreeBSD on *new* servers. And it is likely (according to rumour) that many old expensive Unix boxen are being replaced with new cheap Linux boxen. My current ISP started out with two expensive IRIX machines, and is now running on one expensive IRIX machine and three cheap FreeBSD boxen. I suspect that similar occurances are more frequent with Linux, simply because people know more about Linux than they do FreeBSD. > The article also says that Windows will grow from 41% of the server market to 47% by next year. This statistic doesn't answer the question of whether these Windows deployments are replacing existing Unix deployments, or whether the market itself has grown 7%. I believe it is a mixture of the two. I work for the world's sixth or seventh largest corporation. They are also an official Microsoft partner. For a variety of braindead rationales, we are replacing approximately 200 UltraSparc/Solaris boxen with Dell/Windows machines. These are desktop machines used by Unix developers. Our main servers are also getting replaced by Windows. I greatly suspect that we are not alone in the world. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 10:50:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F0937B416 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:50:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB4Iojx82974; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 19:50:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <010001c17cf4$954228d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Brian Raynes" Cc: References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D0426.BEC515D7@dnr.state.ak.us> Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 19:50:38 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian writes: > ... I believe that the trend is to dump Solaris > on Sun Microsystems machines for Linux on cheaper > Intel machines. I believe this is a cost issue > - virtually free, with little administrative > cost difference is tough to compete with. That seems logical, but why would they choose Linux specifically? Everything I've seen thus far during my brief newbie experience with FreeBSD suggests that it is significantly superior to Linux for any kind of serious production use, and FreeBSD doesn't cost any more than Linux (perhaps less, since you don't have to purchase complete distributions). Indeed, any of the BSD clones would seem to be a better bet than Linux. Is hype alone driving the feverish interest in Linux? > I was hearing my fellow Comp. Science students > predicting Unix would crush Microsoft back in 1988, > when Windows 3.0 was in beta testing. That point of view has traditionally been common in academic circles, since students usually don't know any better. I've never even come close to thinking that UNIX would ever "crush" Windows, particularly on the desktop, where UNIX is a poor substitute for the Microsoft OS, but even today it seems that UNIX provides a much better cost/performance/reliability ratio than Windows for very large and critical server configurations. The main disadvantage to it is that UNIX requires technically sophisticated support staff, but in a large installation, that's not a problem (it might be a problem for a small business, though, in which case Windows would be the favored choice). > Now, I'm predicting their aggressive anti-customer > license control policies, along with outrageous > pricing for applications with functionality that > can mostly be duplicated for free will serve to > bite them very hard in the next few years. I feel exactly the same way, at least with respect to licensing. In fact, it was in part the recent, ominous change in licensing that came with Windows XP that prompted me to finally seriously invest in FreeBSD; I bought a second computer and FreeBSD the same day Windows XP was released. You might say that I'm just covering the bases. UNIX is primarily a server operating system, but it will do for the desktop in a pinch, and by having a UNIX system on hand, I am much better protected against any potentially unpleasant developments in the Microsoft camp. I think that many other people may feel similarly motivated to look outside Microsoft, now that .NET and XP are being marketed aggressively. The advocacy question specific to FreeBSD is: How can persons coming to UNIX be persuaded to adopt FreeBSD instead of the much over-hyped Linux? Of course, the flavor of UNIX that a person runs doesn't matter, as long as applications and drivers and the like remain compatible across all flavors; but if Linux becomes too specialized and proprietary, and too predominant, eventually people will be forced to use Linux and will be locked into it, without any option of running any other UNIX clone. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 11: 1:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1567D37B6D0 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:56:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18BA91D169; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 18:56:30 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 18:56:30 -0000 From: Paul Richards To: David Johnson , Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers Message-ID: <135510000.1007492189@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3C0D1991.83D6EB6D@acuson.com> References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D1991.83D6EB6D@acuson.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --On Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:44:33 -0800 David Johnson wrote: > Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> >> According to an article in BusinessWeek: >> >> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/01_50/b3761094.htm >> >> Non-Linux versions of UNIX are expected to slip from 14% of the server >> market to 10% next year, and Linux is expected to grow from 27% to 32%. >> Is this really true? This would imply that organizations are actively >> junking UNIX systems such as FreeBSD to go to Linux, which I find >> extremely hard to believe (I can't think of any reason why anyone would >> want to junk any xxxBSD to install Linux, which seems like a step >> backwards). Anyone know where these figures are coming from, or how >> realistic they are? > > The use of statistics is very useful if you want to obscure the truth. > The server market is a dynamic and growing market. Market share is a > static number. I seriously doubt for a minute that anyone is dumping > FreeBSD for Linux. But it is entirely possible that people are deploying > Linux instead of FreeBSD on *new* servers. And it is likely (according > to rumour) that many old expensive Unix boxen are being replaced with > new cheap Linux boxen. The Netcraft web server survey provides useful, real world information on this subject. It's certainly the case that Windows is growing in the server market and that BSD is quite small. Subscribe to the Netcraft monthly newsletter if this sort of thing interests you. Paul Richards FreeBSD Services Ltd http://www.freebsd-services.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 11: 6:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFACA37B8CA for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:59:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB4Iwix82998; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 19:58:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <010301c17cf5$b2a3de40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" , "Brian Raynes" Cc: References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D0426.BEC515D7@dnr.state.ak.us> <007801c17ce9$78df5150$03e2cbd8@server> Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 19:58:44 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeremiah writes: > I hate to throw a pitch for the other team, but > I evaluate all of my software equally no matter > who produces it. Microsoft Office XP and Microsoft > Visual Studio/Visual C++ 6.0 are more than good > enough. They are excellent products. [...] Agreed, but I think that something that needs to be kept in mind here is that the desktop is not a viable battleground for UNIX vs. Windows; Windows has already won, and in fact it won long ago. The battleground is in the domain of servers. Instead of worrying about seeing more UNIX on the desktop, it would be more productive to worry about maintaining and expanding the role of UNIX in server environments--where UNIX remains clearly superior to Windows for most applications, particularly the largest and most critical. > I would kill to be able to develop, compile, > and execute my FreeBSD programs under Visual > Studio. I already do when I'm making it portable. I use the Visual Studio source editor to write the code, then transfer the file to FreeBSD for compilation and linking. > Saying Linux or FreeBSD is going to crush Windows > any time soon, would be like the people who two or > three years ago claimed that cable modems were > going to put AOL out of business. Neither Linux nor FreeBSD are even blips on the radar in the desktop market. There's no point in fighting that war, since it's over and UNIX lost. Server systems are where the action is. > I know, I make my living setting FreeBSD Server/ > Windows 2000 Desktop networks. What arguments did you use to persuade clients to accept FreeBSD servers with Windows 2000 desktops--and why did you prefer that configuration yourself (if you did)? One problem with UNIX servers is that there is no equivalent desktop, whereas Windows has a desktop and server presence much more equally (although the desktop is still significantly favored). If users could be persuaded to adopt X terminals or something comparable, suddenly UNIX would be in a very strong position indeed. Current fashion favors complete PCs on the desktop, rather than terminals, however ... even in situations where they really don't belong (such as many workplaces). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 11: 7:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7617937B76E for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:06:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB4J6Rx83017; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:06:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <010c01c17cf6$c698b460$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Peter Grigor" , References: <20011204175956.52893.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:06:26 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Peter writes: > ... however the point of the original thread > (I think) was pointed towards the *server* > market. Yes, that was my area of interest in the original post. The desktop battle is lost for UNIX, so there is no point in discussing it. Until and unless the desktop scene changes dramatically in some way, the server market is the market where UNIX has the advantage. > There is a certain uncomfortability a developer > has when developing for Windows...you sometimes > just don't know what's going on behind the > scenes...and have no way of finding out. Very true, and that is something that has always irritated me. It's especially irritating when something doesn't work, as there is often absolutely no way to investigate the problem. You're dead in the water, then. However, for Windows desktops, you don't have much choice for development tools. The same is true to some extent of UNIX. > Plus the operating system's design itself is > inferior to Unix-type OS's. That depends on the purpose to which the OS is applied. Windows is superior on the desktop from a design standpoint, for the most part. UNIX is superior as a server, in most respects. > I wouldn't ever use anything by BSD for any web > or ftp serving...and very quickly the open souce > databases are catching up. That will also be true for application servers of other types, as described in this CNet article: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-8032896.html?tag=owv > The old saw is sad but true...Windows measures > uptime in days; Unix measures uptime in > years. Actually, that is not true. Windows NT servers often run for years as well. It all depends on what you are running on the machine. Desktop versions of Windows (9x) are much less stable, but nobody keeps a desktop running for years, anyway. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 11: 7:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (216-203-226-2.customer.algx.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D218C37B95C for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:06:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13503 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2001 19:06:04 -0000 Received: from server.sherline.net (HELO server) (216.203.226.3) by sherline.net with SMTP; 4 Dec 2001 19:06:04 -0000 Message-ID: <001a01c17cf6$bf17c690$03e2cbd8@server> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:06:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > What software do you use to scan a network for viruses? > > (I know about scanning incoming, queued and delivered mail for viruses, > but what about live viruses?) I've used both McAfee's vscan for Unix/FreeBSD, and Kaspersky's Anti-Virus for FreeBSD. They are fully functional virus scanners. In fact, I did an article for www.bsdatwork.com on Kaspersky's Anti-Virus. Combine this with smbfs, and you're ready to go. ___________________________________________ Jeremiah Gowdy IT Manager - Senior Network Administrator Sherline Products Inc 3235 Executive Ridge Vista CA 92083-8527 IT Dept: 760-727-9492 Sales: 1-800-541-0735 International: (760) 727-5857 Fax: (760) 727-7857 ___________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:36 AM Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers > On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > > Windows desktops. I explain how nice it is to have a server which can be > > used to virus scan the network (using smbfs) from a server which is immune > > > > to Win32 viruses. This sort of angle gets your foot in the door. > > Jeremy C. Reed > http://www.reedmedia.net/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 11:14: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ancmail1.state.ak.us (oilspill.state.ak.us [146.63.92.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C1B937B428 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnr.state.ak.us ([127.0.0.1]) by ancmail1.state.ak.us (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GNU2QW00.452; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:13:45 -0900 Message-ID: <3C0D21CD.7F89C40A@dnr.state.ak.us> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:19:41 -0900 From: Brian Raynes X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D0426.BEC515D7@dnr.state.ak.us> <010001c17cf4$954228d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Brian writes: > > > ... I believe that the trend is to dump Solaris > > on Sun Microsystems machines for Linux on cheaper > > Intel machines. I believe this is a cost issue > > - virtually free, with little administrative > > cost difference is tough to compete with. > > That seems logical, but why would they choose Linux specifically? Everything I've seen thus far during my brief newbie experience > with FreeBSD suggests that it is significantly superior to Linux for any kind of serious production use, and FreeBSD doesn't cost > any more than Linux (perhaps less, since you don't have to purchase complete distributions). Indeed, any of the BSD clones would > seem to be a better bet than Linux. Is hype alone driving the feverish interest in Linux? I'm not sure I would necessarily call it just hype, but Linux is more well known and being able to refer the pointy-haired boss at Redhat or some other Linux company can give him/her the warm fuzzies inside. Otherwise, I like xBSDs better than Linux too. > The main disadvantage to it is that UNIX requires technically sophisticated support > staff, but in a large installation, that's not a problem (it might be a problem for a small >business, though, in which case Windows > would be the favored choice). You're probably onto something there. More small organizations may be getting into networking and so the higher availability of MCSEs over Unix administrators probably does play a part too. > > > Now, I'm predicting their aggressive anti-customer > > license control policies, along with outrageous > > pricing for applications with functionality that > > can mostly be duplicated for free will serve to > > bite them very hard in the next few years. > > I feel exactly the same way, at least with respect to licensing. In fact, it was in part the recent, ominous change in licensing > that came with Windows XP that prompted me to finally seriously invest in FreeBSD; I bought a second computer and FreeBSD the same > day Windows XP was released. You might say that I'm just covering the bases. UNIX is primarily a server operating system, but it > will do for the desktop in a pinch, and by having a UNIX system on hand, I am much better protected against any potentially > unpleasant developments in the Microsoft camp. I think that many other people may feel similarly motivated to look outside > Microsoft, now that .NET and XP are being marketed aggressively. > > The advocacy question specific to FreeBSD is: How can persons coming to UNIX be persuaded to adopt FreeBSD instead of the much > over-hyped Linux? Of course, the flavor of UNIX that a person runs doesn't matter, as long as applications and drivers and the like > remain compatible across all flavors; but if Linux becomes too specialized and proprietary, and too predominant, eventually people > will be forced to use Linux and will be locked into it, without any option of running any other UNIX clone. I don't think Linux will become too much that way, although there are signs that some of the free software companies are starting to try and make money and differentiate themselves by producing proprietary components (see recent articles on Ximian, the GNOME guys). If one of these companies was to grow to dominating status, we could see something like that. It would be tough to take the Linux operating system itself and try to dominate. The licensing forces it to be open source, so proprietary changes are difficult to add. Note: I don't want a GPL vs. BSD license discussion- again.:) I really don't want a discussion of the legal strength of the GPL license, either >:(. The only thing I see possible is a dominate free application, along with the proprietary parts, you buy which ones you need. But, I believe it will stay possible for any changes to Linux or xBSD to be copied or "emulated" successfully. Really though, I don't think anyone is going to achieve a Microsoft-like dominance again, unless they happen to come up with the next "killer" proprietary application, one that's of interest to everyday people, but boring to free software programmers. It gets more difficult to imagine what that might be, but it'll be interesting to see what happens next... Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 11:21:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (216-203-226-2.customer.algx.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B786637B41A for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13737 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2001 19:21:15 -0000 Received: from server.sherline.net (HELO server) (216.203.226.3) by sherline.net with SMTP; 4 Dec 2001 19:21:15 -0000 Message-ID: <002901c17cf8$de517ae0$03e2cbd8@server> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Brian Raynes" Cc: References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D0426.BEC515D7@dnr.state.ak.us> <007801c17ce9$78df5150$03e2cbd8@server> <010301c17cf5$b2a3de40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:21:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I know, I make my living setting FreeBSD Server/ > > Windows 2000 Desktop networks. > > What arguments did you use to persuade clients to accept FreeBSD servers with Windows 2000 desktops--and why did you prefer that > configuration yourself (if you did)? I have deployed or converted several networks to the FreeBSD/Win2k model. They are _very_ reliable. I find Windows 2000 to be the most reliable version of Windows while still posessing enough features to make it useful. I setup my FreeBSD servers with Samba, qmail, and a transparent bridge/firewall configuration on the WAN. Basically, when I am called into a job, the company has already made up it's mind that it's unhappy with the Microsoft or (ugh) Novell servers they already have. I simply explain to the clients that their users will not see any difference in the services provided (file serving, email, firewall protection, virus scanning of email, network-workstation backups). What they will see is a drastic reduction in network services downtime. Often they will see improved performance on the fileserver with Samba. All you can really do is make promises and deliver on them. Usually a company will allow you to install one server in a non-critical area to demonstrate the functionality. Once you've shown the server's OS is transparent to the user, and that the FreeBSD server will continue to run until the heat death of the universe, they will go along with a total conversion. If you are having a hard time convincing them to move into the FreeBSD world, show them the uptimes on some of your personal servers or previous clients. Most companies will be more than happy to discover that they don't need so many MCSEs on their staff. Of course, the Microsoft people working at the company will hate you. The Unix guy who's come in to install a strange server that runs on it's own with more performance and reliability than the NT/2K servers that it takes 3-4+ MCSEs to maintain. That's really the biggest problem converting companies. Preexisting IT staff. Simply question management on the uptimes and reliability of their current configuration. They will jump at the promise of a more reliable configuration. If the MCSEs try to naysay you, tell them there's a difference between a college degree and certs, and that any fool can buy an MCSE in TJ for $100. It's quite easy to convince managers that their IT staff is substandard and overpaid, since they've been thinking that to themselves for months. I'm sure I've made it clear I enjoy breaking up the happy little world of MCSEs and the companies they're hoodwinking. ___________________________________________ Jeremiah Gowdy IT Manager - Senior Network Administrator Sherline Products Inc 3235 Executive Ridge Vista CA 92083-8527 IT Dept: 760-727-9492 Sales: 1-800-541-0735 International: (760) 727-5857 Fax: (760) 727-7857 ___________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 11:22:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4F1437B417 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA1DD8; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:22:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3C0D2263.FCDE2830@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 11:22:11 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D0426.BEC515D7@dnr.state.ak.us> <010001c17cf4$954228d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > That seems logical, but why would they choose Linux specifically? Everything I've seen thus far during my brief newbie experience > with FreeBSD suggests that it is significantly superior to Linux for any kind of serious production use, and FreeBSD doesn't cost > any more than Linux (perhaps less, since you don't have to purchase complete distributions). Indeed, any of the BSD clones would > seem to be a better bet than Linux. Is hype alone driving the feverish interest in Linux? Several reasons. First, more people have heard of Linux than FreeBSD. Second, more people are familiar with Linux than with FreeBSD. Third, more people are experienced installing maintaining Linux than FreeBSD. You need to take into account the decision maker. If they haven't run FreeBSD, know anyone in their organization running FreeBSD, or even heard of FreeBSD, then they aren't going to choose it. They won't choose FreeBSD just because it has a nice reputation among a group of people they don't associate with. And of course, the ratio of Linux sales reps to FreeBSD sales reps approaches infinity. If you take a closer look at those Linux deployments, you'll see that Redhat overwhelmingly dominates. Much more so than it dominates other distros on the desktop. Slackware and Debian servers in the business are almost unheard of, though they are more stable, robust, and reliable. Looking closer at Redhat you'll see several qualities that appeal to the corporate buyer and deployer: comfortable installation, distributed package management, large and seemingly stable company, well known name, fewer abrasive advocates, etc. > > I was hearing my fellow Comp. Science students > > predicting Unix would crush Microsoft back in 1988, > > when Windows 3.0 was in beta testing. > > That point of view has traditionally been common in academic circles, since students usually don't know any better. Actually, most student DO know better. They know the technology better. They know the capabilities better. But they aren't the marketplace, and it's the marketplace that decides such things. I was a student in the early '80s, way before Windows 3.0. When the Mac first came out I predicted that it would quickly fail. My reasoning was sound. The Mac took away all control from the user (there wasn't even a floppy eject button), and had very poor development tools (you needed a Lisa to real programming on it). But the marketplace didn't listen to me. And now the Mac has the best consumer hardware in the world and runs a BSD based OS. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 14:12:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5D037B417 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 14:12:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB4MCnx83582; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 23:12:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <013b01c17d10$cf9c99e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Brian Raynes" Cc: References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D0426.BEC515D7@dnr.state.ak.us> <010001c17cf4$954228d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D21CD.7F89C40A@dnr.state.ak.us> Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 23:12:49 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian writes: > More small organizations may be getting into > networking and so the higher availability of > MCSEs over Unix administrators probably does > play a part too. I don't understand all this talk of MCSEs. You shouldn't need an MCSE to run a Windows intranet; if you do, then there's far less reason not to just go with UNIX. One of the putative advantages of Windows is that it requires no expert care and feeding; the moment that ceases to be true a huge advantage of Windows over UNIX is lost. Additionally, even if you have someone running the Windows intranet full time, he doesn't have to be a MCSE. MCSE just means that he expects you to pay him more for memorizing the answers to questions on a multiple-choice test during a five-day workshop. > I don't think Linux will become too much that > way, although there are signs that some of the > free software companies are starting to try and > make money and differentiate themselves by > producing proprietary components (see recent > articles on Ximian, the GNOME guys). It can only get worse. There's no money in free software, by definition, and so no company--no matter what noble claims it might make--actually intends to give anything away. The goal is always the same: Come up with something you can make people pay for, and lock them into it. And if you can do that by repackaging something that is 99% the free work of someone else, so much the better. > If one of these companies was to grow to dominating > status, we could see something like that. Like Red Hat? > It would be tough to take the Linux operating > system itself and try to dominate. Linux itself (which includes only the kernel, right?) is useless for anything worthwhile, though, so anyone using must usually acquire additional software somehow. The fact that one component of a product is free software will not prevent companies from finding a way to charge lots of money for as little as possible and locking customers into their product line. Today's Red Hat is tomorrow's Microsoft. > It gets more difficult to imagine what that might > be, but it'll be interesting to see what happens > next... My worry is that the entire concept of free software is inherently unstable and cannot endure forever. As nice as it sounds, it's just not possible to do things for free, or to get something for nothing. And once you start charging, greed tends to take over, and it's a slippery slope. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 14:19: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A057237B428 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 14:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB4MIAx83603; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 23:18:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <014001c17d11$8f1fb360$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" , "Brian Raynes" Cc: References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D0426.BEC515D7@dnr.state.ak.us> <007801c17ce9$78df5150$03e2cbd8@server> <010301c17cf5$b2a3de40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <002901c17cf8$de517ae0$03e2cbd8@server> Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 23:18:10 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeremiah writes: > I setup my FreeBSD servers with Samba, qmail, > and a transparent bridge/firewall configuration > on the WAN. I have read about Samba but I have not tried it thus far. I'm very wary of emulation software because it almost always seems to be a complete hornet's nest to get into, and it rapidly becomes very time-consuming to maintain. Perhaps Samba is a happy exception, though. If you use FreeBSD and Samba instead of a Windows server, what things do you _lose_, from the Windows desktop user's standpoint? > Most companies will be more than happy to discover > that they don't need so many MCSEs on their staff. What ever gave them the impression that they needed any MCSEs at all? One of the selling points of a Windows intranet has always been that you don't need specialized administrators working full-time to keep it running. If you are going to pay money for full-time administrators, you may as well install UNIX. MCSE certifications themselves are worthless. All you need is a little bit of time and money, and an average memory that can last long enough to take the exam. > It's quite easy to convince managers that their IT > staff is substandard and overpaid, since they've > been thinking that to themselves for months. It's easy if it is true. I suspect that it is true more often in the Windows world than in the UNIX world, because it's far easier to fake things in the Windows environment. > I'm sure I've made it clear I enjoy breaking up the > happy little world of MCSEs and the companies they're > hoodwinking. Credentialism is a form of closed-shop policy and restraint of trade, and I'm never in favor of it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 14:40:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B9D37B416 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 14:40:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB4MeWx83651; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 23:40:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <014501c17d14$aef11e60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "David Johnson" Cc: References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D0426.BEC515D7@dnr.state.ak.us> <010001c17cf4$954228d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D2263.FCDE2830@acuson.com> Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 23:40:32 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David writes: > If you take a closer look at those Linux > deployments, you'll see that Redhat overwhelmingly > dominates. I've already noticed that, and it worries me. Perhaps many other Linux fans are naïve enough to believe that companies like Red Hat are just kind, altruistic folk who seek to better society by providing a vehicle for peacful, loving, free software, but they look to me like any other software company, grasping for cash and trying to find ways to acquire it in the easiest and fastest way possible. > Looking closer at Redhat you'll see several > qualities that appeal to the corporate buyer > and deployer: comfortable installation, > distributed package management, large and > seemingly stable company, well known name, > fewer abrasive advocates, etc. The same qualities, in fact, that put Microsoft in a position of leadership. And I think you'll find that Red Hat has or will develop the same flaws as well: a tendency to lock customers into proprietary solutions, a tendency to overcharge for products, a tendency to work hard to discourage anything that endangers its proprietary revenue generators or calls them into question. All software companies are that way. > I was a student in the early '80s, way before > Windows 3.0. When the Mac first came out I > predicted that it would quickly fail. My reasoning > was sound. I thought the Mac was destined to succeed, but I was wrong, too. I didn't realize just how poor Apple management really was. > And now the Mac has the best consumer hardware > in the world ... And the most expensive, too. > ... and runs a BSD based OS. But Apple charges a lot for the blobs of extra code they added to it. (See Red Hat and Microsoft, above.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 15: 9:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ancmail1.state.ak.us (oilspill.state.ak.us [146.63.92.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87DFD37B416 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:09:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnr.state.ak.us ([127.0.0.1]) by ancmail1.state.ak.us (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GNUDO800.0G1; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 14:09:44 -0900 Message-ID: <3C0D591E.D33C5BD5@dnr.state.ak.us> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 14:15:42 -0900 From: Brian Raynes X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D0426.BEC515D7@dnr.state.ak.us> <010001c17cf4$954228d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D21CD.7F89C40A@dnr.state.ak.us> <013b01c17d10$cf9c99e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > I don't understand all this talk of MCSEs. You shouldn't need an MCSE to run a Windows intranet; if you do, then there's far less > reason not to just go with UNIX. One of the putative advantages of Windows is that it requires no expert care and feeding; the > moment that ceases to be true a huge advantage of Windows over UNIX is lost. MCSE's are paid less than UNIX admins - in my limited experience. And maybe I misspoke, by MCSE's I usually mean Windows admins. Windows is simple to administer, on the surface anyway, but seem to have a number of nasty breakdowns if maintained by part-timers who really have a different job. Any network seems to require occasional expert care. As far as advantages for a server? I believe that Mr. Gowdy is correct, FreeBSD servers will require less expert care, once they are set up. Reference his comments on breaking up little cabals of MCSEs for why this logic seems to escape management. Remember that those who make these decisions rarely understand any of the stuff that differentiates Windows from UNIX, they do what their IT people/consultants tell them to do. And there are a lot more Windows admins (MCSEs) than Unix admins - sad, but true. > > Additionally, even if you have someone running the Windows intranet full time, he doesn't have to be a MCSE. MCSE just means that > he expects you to pay him more for memorizing the answers to questions on a multiple-choice test during a five-day workshop. That extra pay thing usually motivates the Windows admin to get the "credentials", in my experience. Note that I'm not a network admin, but I usually make friends with them. > > It can only get worse. There's no money in free software, by definition, and so no company--no matter what noble claims it might > make--actually intends to give anything away. The goal is always the same: Come up with something you can make people pay for, and > lock them into it. And if you can do that by repackaging something that is 99% the free work of someone else, so much the better. I think the guys at Ximian (Nat Friedman and Miguel de Icaza, specifically) would argue that their products are definitely not 99% someone else's work, but in other non-special cases, I do get your point. > Linux itself (which includes only the kernel, right?) is useless for anything worthwhile, though, so anyone using must usually > acquire additional software somehow. The fact that one component of a product is free software will not prevent companies from > finding a way to charge lots of money for as little as possible and locking customers into their product line. Today's Red Hat is > tomorrow's Microsoft. Redhat, and for that matter Mandrake, have contributed loads of time, money and programmer effort into much of the free software structure on top of Linux. Redhat provided a great deal of the early effort on the GNOME environment, for instance. I was a frequent lurker on the early progress of GNOME, although I later decided that I like KDE better. These companies get bashed quite often, but they are actually responsible for huge progress in many of the free programs linux people enjoy today. Redhat and Mandrake put most of their early work under the GPL. Redhat acquired some companies doing proprietary development, but much of their stuff is still released under the GPL, as far as I know. It just seems that most of it is of little interest to others. > My worry is that the entire concept of free software is inherently unstable and cannot endure forever. As nice as it sounds, it's > just not possible to do things for free, or to get something for nothing. And once you start charging, greed tends to take over, > and it's a slippery slope. Perhaps, but it's rarely that simple. And free software has been around as long as software has, it just may not always be so popular as the last few years, but there will always be those who contribute to it. Not everyone codes for any reason other than to fill their own needs, after that, they may not care if they make a dime off of it and give it away to whomever might find that they have similar needs. I think that principle will keep free software alive for a long time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 15:27:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from marbles.lost.net.au (marbles.lost.net.au [203.56.209.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D000C37B416 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:27:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by marbles.lost.net.au (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fB4NRJo16980; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:57:19 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from tim@lost.net.au) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:57:19 +1030 (CST) From: tim To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers In-Reply-To: <014001c17d11$8f1fb360$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20011205095150.M16840-100000@marbles.lost.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: AA> Jeremiah writes: AA> AA> > I setup my FreeBSD servers with Samba, qmail, AA> > and a transparent bridge/firewall configuration AA> > on the WAN. AA> AA> I have read about Samba but I have not tried it thus far. AA> I'm very wary of emulation software because it almost AA> always seems to be a complete hornet's nest to get into, AA> and it rapidly becomes very time-consuming to maintain. AA> Perhaps Samba is a happy exception, though. Samba doesn't emulate anything. It's a perfectly usable implementation of SMB, aka CIFS. AA> If you use FreeBSD and Samba instead of a Windows server, AA> what things do you _lose_, from the Windows desktop AA> user's standpoint? They lose nothing at all. Samba doesn't implement all of SMB, but then, neither does NT! I've never seen a windows user notice any difference between them. -- tim@lost.net.au To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 16:38:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0EA537B405 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 16:38:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB50bwx83986; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 01:37:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <018701c17d25$16c389a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Brian Raynes" Cc: References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D0426.BEC515D7@dnr.state.ak.us> <010001c17cf4$954228d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D21CD.7F89C40A@dnr.state.ak.us> <013b01c17d10$cf9c99e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D591E.D33C5BD5@dnr.state.ak.us> Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 01:37:58 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian writes: > Redhat, and for that matter Mandrake, have > contributed loads of time, money and programmer > effort into much of the free software structure > on top of Linux. I'm sure that Microsoft and Adobe burned the midnight oil, too, when they were young and still trying to dig a gold mine. In any case, they aren't helping FreeBSD much, are they? > Redhat and Mandrake put most of their early > work under the GPL. Early work, eh? And now? > Redhat acquired some companies doing proprietary > development, but much of their stuff is still > released under the GPL, as far as I know. Uh-huh. However, once these companies finally make it clear that they are really in it for the money, maybe FreeBSD will become more popular, at least until someone tries to turn it into a cash cow as well. > It just seems that most of it is of little > interest to others. One of the rules is to only give away software that nobody wants to buy. That way you can say you are supporting open source without actually sacrificing any money. > And free software has been around as long as > software has ... But how much free software from the past is still available--and free--today? > Not everyone codes for any reason other than to > fill their own needs, after that, they may not > care if they make a dime off of it and give it > away to whomever might find that they have similar > needs. I think that principle will keep free > software alive for a long time. I hope so. It's nice to not have to work for a living, that's for sure, but it isn't a common luxury. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 16:39: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1745F37B41E for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 16:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB50ckx83995; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 01:38:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <018c01c17d25$338cec20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "tim" Cc: References: <20011205095150.M16840-100000@marbles.lost.net.au> Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 01:38:46 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Tim writes: > Samba doesn't emulate anything. It's a perfectly > usable implementation of SMB, aka CIFS. What about NT domain credentials, permissions, and ACLs? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 16:47:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ancmail1.state.ak.us (correct.state.ak.us [146.63.92.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EEEF37B417 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 16:47:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnr.state.ak.us ([127.0.0.1]) by ancmail1.state.ak.us (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GNUI6G00.PKW; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:47:05 -0900 Message-ID: <3C0D6FED.59E16F2B@dnr.state.ak.us> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 15:53:01 -0900 From: Brian Raynes X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers References: <20011205095150.M16840-100000@marbles.lost.net.au> <018c01c17d25$338cec20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Tim writes: > > > Samba doesn't emulate anything. It's a perfectly > > usable implementation of SMB, aka CIFS. > > What about NT domain credentials, permissions, and ACLs? There's been work at implementing some of this in Samba - you'd have to check their website for the latest, it's been a while since I looked. We use Samba on Solaris at my very large State office. As a user I do not miss anything. There used to be a NT authentication server, but the admins who inherited it, dumped it. The only Win2K servers we have are for specific apps that do not run under Solaris. Either way, _users_ don't notice any difference, maybe admins do? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 16:59:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F4E37B416 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 16:59:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA68FE; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 16:59:37 -0800 Message-ID: <3C0D7177.542DD45B@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 16:59:35 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D0426.BEC515D7@dnr.state.ak.us> <010001c17cf4$954228d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D21CD.7F89C40A@dnr.state.ak.us> <013b01c17d10$cf9c99e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D591E.D33C5BD5@dnr.state.ak.us> <018701c17d25$16c389a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Redhat and Mandrake put most of their early > > work under the GPL. > > Early work, eh? And now? > > > Redhat acquired some companies doing proprietary > > development, but much of their stuff is still > > released under the GPL, as far as I know. > > Uh-huh. The proprietary software included in the Linux distros that have them tend to all fall into one of two categories: installation/maintenance software (YaST) and third party software (Navigator). From my perspective, it's the non-distro projects that are bailing on the Free Software "ideal" (you know, those Ximian guys who hold seats on the FSF board). Will the commercial distros ever go flat-out proprietary in an attempt to lock their users in? Maybe, maybe not. But I know for one thing that the users won't put up with it. > However, once these companies finally make it clear that they are really in it for the money, maybe FreeBSD will become more > popular, at least until someone tries to turn it into a cash cow as well. Any new annoyance with a user's chosen distro and they start looking at other distros and systems, including FreeBSD. These new annoyances can be just about anything, including raising the price of the distro to $80, announcing that they are considering a subscription service, using too much bleeding edge software in the core system, to merely posting a white paper saying that KDE is illegal (the latter caused me to eventually switch to FreeBSD). > > And free software has been around as long as > > software has ... > > But how much free software from the past is still available--and free--today? vi, emacs, BSD, TCP/IP, sendmail, BIND, hetc, etc. Of course, if you're looking for the *really* old free software, like for the Univac or something, it's going to be harder. But basically all of the free software available when I started computing twenty years ago is still there, but with twenty years of improvements and updates. The first computer game I ever liked is still available for free and shipping with FreeBSD: rogue. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 17:10:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ancmail1.state.ak.us (correct.state.ak.us [146.63.92.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CEAF37B41C for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 17:10:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from dnr.state.ak.us ([127.0.0.1]) by ancmail1.state.ak.us (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GNUJ8T00.COF; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 16:10:05 -0900 Message-ID: <3C0D7551.3D84A4A6@dnr.state.ak.us> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 16:16:01 -0900 From: Brian Raynes X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D0426.BEC515D7@dnr.state.ak.us> <010001c17cf4$954228d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D21CD.7F89C40A@dnr.state.ak.us> <013b01c17d10$cf9c99e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D591E.D33C5BD5@dnr.state.ak.us> <018701c17d25$16c389a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Brian writes: > > > Redhat, and for that matter Mandrake, have > > contributed loads of time, money and programmer > > effort into much of the free software structure > > on top of Linux. > > I'm sure that Microsoft and Adobe burned the midnight oil, too, when they were young and still trying to dig a gold mine. > > In any case, they aren't helping FreeBSD much, are they? Microsoft and Adobe had some free (as in beer) products in order to grab market share. For what it's worth, I think Adobe's way of doing it was very good for most computer uses - I really like pdf format and everyone can read them with free readers. There are also free (as in "freedom") software implementations for creating pdfs, so I see little harm there, either. Redhat and Mandrake have released their free software under the GPL, which prevents the BSDs from using a lot of it. It's true that RPM and their respective install utilities are of small interest to FreeBSD. > > Redhat and Mandrake put most of their early > > work under the GPL. > > Early work, eh? And now? And now I don't follow what Redhat is doing anymore. Mandrake still releases software developed there as GPL. They both offer proprietary software in package deals on top of the free software. But I have used both for useful work without any proprietary, closed-source software and the free additions that they have both made were definitely of benefit to me in using Linux. Judge that how you will. > > Redhat acquired some companies doing proprietary > > development, but much of their stuff is still > > released under the GPL, as far as I know. > > Uh-huh. > > However, once these companies finally make it clear that they are really in it for the money, maybe FreeBSD will become more > popular, at least until someone tries to turn it into a cash cow as well. > > > It just seems that most of it is of little > > interest to others. > > One of the rules is to only give away software that nobody wants to buy. That way you can say you are supporting open source > without actually sacrificing any money. As I pointed out before, they made huge, undernoticed and underappreciated contributions to GNOME, which lots of people like, even if I like it less than the competitor (KDE). Oh yeah, and those two environments are usable on FreeBSD and other unix-like OSes. > > And free software has been around as long as > > software has ... > > But how much free software from the past is still available--and free--today? All of the GNU software I've ever heard of, although some of the original stuff may have little utility on today's hardware? The BSD tools and operating system go back a long way too. The principal to remember with both these examples is that even if someone makes a paid product from the code or portions of it, the stuff that they borrowed (stole?) is still there for the free software people to use. It doesn't go away just because someone copies it. That seems obvious, but gets overlooked often. > > > Not everyone codes for any reason other than to > > fill their own needs, after that, they may not > > care if they make a dime off of it and give it > > away to whomever might find that they have similar > > needs. I think that principle will keep free > > software alive for a long time. > > I hope so. It's nice to not have to work for a living, that's for sure, but it isn't a common luxury. Most of these guys do work for a living. I'm not sure where or if they have much of a social life, though:) I think a lot of them drop off the free software scene when a real life catches up with them, but then there's always a new batch of young, single people looking to work on something interesting to take over. It's true that most of us can't be Alan Cox or Theo (of OpenBSD) and live off our computer hobby without an outside employer dictating to us. Bummer. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 17:13:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7329F37B416 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 17:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB51DIx84105; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 02:13:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <019a01c17d2a$067fc5e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "David Johnson" Cc: References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D0426.BEC515D7@dnr.state.ak.us> <010001c17cf4$954228d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D21CD.7F89C40A@dnr.state.ak.us> <013b01c17d10$cf9c99e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D591E.D33C5BD5@dnr.state.ak.us> <018701c17d25$16c389a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D7177.542DD45B@acuson.com> Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 02:13:18 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David writes: > ... to merely posting a white paper saying > that KDE is illegal (the latter caused me to > eventually switch to FreeBSD). KDE is illegal? Says who? > The first computer game I ever liked is still > available for free and shipping with FreeBSD: > rogue. I found NetHack, but it doesn't let me use arrow keys on my keyboard. I found Adventure, but only for Windows (thus far). Very nostalgic. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 17:34:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C570037B419 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 17:34:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA827; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 17:34:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3C0D79A8.CD79EB34@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 17:34:32 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D0426.BEC515D7@dnr.state.ak.us> <010001c17cf4$954228d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D21CD.7F89C40A@dnr.state.ak.us> <013b01c17d10$cf9c99e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D591E.D33C5BD5@dnr.state.ak.us> <018701c17d25$16c389a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D7177.542DD45B@acuson.com> <019a01c17d2a$067fc5e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > David writes: > > > ... to merely posting a white paper saying > > that KDE is illegal (the latter caused me to > > eventually switch to FreeBSD). > > KDE is illegal? Says who? Said Redhat in a white paper posted on their website that helped spark the whole "KDE is Illegal" holy war. The gist of their argument was that Qt was not GPL compatible, KDE was under the GPL, so that the KDE license (GPL) was invalid and thus could not be legally distributed. Other minor points in the paper cited kfloppy and kghostview which took existing GPL software and dynamically linked them at runtime to non-GPL Qt. At the time this white paper was published, Redhat had just announced that they were financially supporting GNOME. A week after Redhat once again included KDE in their distribution, I noticed that particular white paper was STILL posted on their website. So I asked them if they now considered Redhat to be in violation of the law, and that white paper disappeared from public access within twenty four hours. Just about everyone now agrees that KDE is fully legal since Qt is not dual licensed QPL/GPL. However there are still some holdouts (mainly from Debian) who maintain that KDE developers still need formal forgiveness from Linus Torvalds (for kfloppy) and Aladdin (for kghostview) before they are allowed to distribute it legally. Formal forgiveness from RMS was already provided for any FSF code that might have been used in KDE (none ever was). All in all a sorry chapter in Free Software history. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 17:43:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E098E37B41A for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 17:43:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB51hUx84181; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 02:43:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01a501c17d2e$3e0f9220$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "David Johnson" Cc: References: <00ef01c17cda$6b419760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D0426.BEC515D7@dnr.state.ak.us> <010001c17cf4$954228d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D21CD.7F89C40A@dnr.state.ak.us> <013b01c17d10$cf9c99e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D591E.D33C5BD5@dnr.state.ak.us> <018701c17d25$16c389a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D7177.542DD45B@acuson.com> <019a01c17d2a$067fc5e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0D79A8.CD79EB34@acuson.com> Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David writes: > At the time this white paper was published, > Redhat had just announced that they were > [...] So I asked them if they now considered > Redhat to be in violation of the law, and > that white paper disappeared from public > access within twenty four hours. This does not bode well at all for Red Hat. If they are already playing games like that, just you wait and see what happens later on. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 4 21:10:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mtbaker.tfm.com (mtbaker.tfm.com [192.231.224.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7668337B417 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 21:10:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from db@localhost) by mtbaker.tfm.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id fB55AOS15348; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 21:10:24 -0800 (PST) From: Diane Bruce Message-Id: <200112050510.fB55AOS15348@mtbaker.tfm.com> Subject: Re: Prevalence of FreeBSD and UNIX among servers In-Reply-To: <019a01c17d2a$067fc5e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> "from Anthony Atkielski at Dec 5, 2001 02:13:18 am" To: Anthony Atkielski Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 21:10:24 -0800 (PST) Cc: David Johnson , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL78 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anthony Atkielski says: [ Charset Windows-1252 unsupported, skipping... ] Ironic. -- Diane Bruce, http://www.db.net/~db db@db.net --- I got bored with the last witty aphorism. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 5 19:17: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FFF237B417 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 19:17:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB63Gux03156 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 04:16:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <004b01c17e04$75f209d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Advocacy" Subject: Queen dumps Linux Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 04:16:55 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Not really a FreeBSD issue, but the Queen of England has gone from Linux to Microsoft for her Web server site. The change was prompted by a change of web-hosting providers, not by any technical or other issues (the new provider uses Microsoft IIS). Full story in CNet: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-8080960.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 5 19:48:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from job.axcomp.com (job.axcomp.com [66.84.135.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D845E37B419; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 19:48:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from 66.84.135.2 (IDENT:mailman@job [127.0.0.1]) by job.axcomp.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fB64n8K17857; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 22:49:08 -0600 Received: from mini.axcomp.com (IDENT:root@mini.axcomp.com [66.84.135.2]) by job.axcomp.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fB64COK16621 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 22:12:24 -0600 Received: from mailtag.com ([66.84.135.12]) by mini.axcomp.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id fB6454N25290 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 22:05:04 -0600 Received: from outlook.axcomp.com ([66.84.135.10]) by mailtag.com (wcSMTP v5.4.449.5) with SMTP id 332700017; Wed, 05 Dec 2001 21:05:11 -0600 From: Sales Department X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.53d) Educational Reply-To: Sales Department Organization: mailtag.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <164530864693.20011205204752@mailtag.com> To: mailtag2@job.axcomp.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Mailtag2] Nationwide unlimited dialup internet for only $8.95 per month! X-BeenThere: mailtag2@job.axcomp.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.3 List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: mailtag.com mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 20:47:52 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello Mailtag user, For 3 months now mailtag.com has been working on setting up a National Dialup infrastructure for it's users. We have had so many requests for this type of service. 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Have your credit card ready, we have secure online ordering and upgrade available to you. You can have immediate access, please read the instructions! ------ If you would like to remove yourself from our list just go to: http://job.axcomp.com/mailman/listinfo/mailtag2 and go to the bottom of the www site. Enter in your mailing address that you received this email at, and it will bring you to your settings page. In there you can remove yourself. If you have forgotten, or lost your password, it will email you a copy of that as well. _______________________________________________ Mailtag2 mailing list Mailtag2@job.axcomp.com http://job.axcomp.com/mailman/listinfo/mailtag2 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 6 13:22:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp015.mail.yahoo.com (smtp015.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2AA2837B416 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:22:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown (HELO warhawk) (202.1.200.148) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Dec 2001 21:22:22 -0000 From: "Haikal Saadh" To: Cc: , , , Subject: BSDDaemon logon for WinXP Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 02:22:09 +0500 Message-ID: <000301c17e9c$164d30c0$94c801ca@warhawk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/wyldephyre2/lst?&.dir=/XPThemes&.src=bc&.v iew=l&.last=1 Not bad for a first go huh? Feedback welcome...Might have gone a bit overboard on the colours for the User/Password box, it does got towards creating that 'hellish' feeling I had in mind :) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 6 16:56:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.ieg.com.br (huxley.protocoloweb.com.br [200.185.63.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1EAC37B417 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 16:55:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from TmpStr (200-207-52-210.dsl.telesp.net.br [200.207.52.210]) by smtp.ieg.com.br (ieG relay/8.9.3) with SMTP id fB70t3D95724 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:55:03 -0200 (BRST) Message-Id: <200112070055.fB70t3D95724@smtp.ieg.com.br> Reply-To: "Keila - Curitiba" From: "Keila - Curitiba" To: "" Organization: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Subject: CONVITE HP ALERTA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:59:06 -0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Olá! Veja meu site pessoal. Basta clicar no endereço abaixo. GARANTO SER SUI-GENERIS - CLIQUE ABAIXO: http://www.pastorinha.atfreeweb.com Mais de 162.000 internautas visitaram a PG., existe 6 Álbuns: Se você quiser, por favor, indique minha Home Page, a outros Internautas. Mais detalhes, se comunique, passe um e-mail, que responderei brevemente. Dentro da Home Page, ao lado das fotos, você poderá saber muito mais sobre mim! Obrigada. e-mail: arosadesaron@zipmail.com.br Beijos:- Keila - Curitiba - Pr - Podes falar comigo, direto dela. Brevemente uma Carta Aberta. - Embora derrubem a página eu a subo em 3 horas novamente. "Esta mensagem é enviada com a complacência da nova legislação sobre correio eletrônico, Seção 301, Parágrafo (a) (2) (c) Decreto S. 1618, Título Terceiro aprovado pelo "105º Congresso Base das Normativas Internacionais sobre o SPAM". Este E-mail não poderá ser considerado SPAM quando incluir uma forma de ser removido. Para ser removido de futuros correios, simplesmente responda indicando no Assunto: REMOVER" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 8 9:49:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp015.mail.yahoo.com (smtp015.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9A7DD37B416 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:49:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from unknown (HELO warhawk) (202.1.200.127) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Dec 2001 17:49:28 -0000 From: "Haikal Saadh" To: Cc: , , Subject: Second beastie login for winxp Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 22:49:17 +0500 Message-ID: <000501c18010$adbf1de0$ebc801ca@warhawk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Be here: [http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/wyldephyre2/lst?&.dir=/XPThemes/beastie2& .src=bc&.view=l&.last=1] Heaps better than my first one, now banished off the face of the earth. This one is much easier than the eyes than my first one, and just plain looks better. Again, comments welcome. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message