From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 14 17: 5:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id B376337B40C; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:05:15 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: design issues Message-ID: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This weekend I sat down to work on some code for the binary updater, but I didn't really get anything done because I thought that a few important decisions where yet to be made, and really affect what I'm going to be working on next. 1. I've heard speculation of an entirely new package framework, that would include things such as base system components being installed as packages. Is this anywhere near reality for 5.0-RELEASE, or should it be considered a thought that has past? 2. Does it make sense for system components to include other components, or would managing dependancies within the updater sound like a better plan? In the case of the base system being installed as a set of packages it sounds like a better plan to manage dependancies, whereas with the current layout of FreeBSD it may make more sense to go the other way. 3. A means of classifying packages would be desirable to allow, say, the installation of a system using postfix instead of sendmail. This would work along the lines of certain packages being grouped, and then exactly one must be selected. This isn't really a question so much as an extra point to be considered in the first question. 4. There should be a reasonable way of accomplishing such tasks as adding groups without user intervention, and most certainly without destroying any of the existing configuration. One solution would involve dividing files across a generic and local version, such as currently done with rc.conf. Another would involve sending the client scripts that would be executed on their end, updating files as needed. How do these sound? What other solutions are there? All input is welcome. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 14 17:59:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3363337B409; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id C11D213B; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 01:58:54 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 01:58:54 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Eric Melville Cc: binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <20011015015854.X31066@tao.org.uk> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="P6PRkhImOxklJvkF" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org>; from eric@FreeBSD.org on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 05:05:15PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --P6PRkhImOxklJvkF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 05:05:15PM -0700, Eric Melville wrote: > This weekend I sat down to work on some code for the binary updater, but I > didn't really get anything done because I thought that a few important > decisions where yet to be made, and really affect what I'm going to be > working on next. >=20 > 1. I've heard speculation of an entirely new package framework, that would > include things such as base system components being installed as > packages. Is this anywhere near reality for 5.0-RELEASE, or should it = be > considered a thought that has past? Who's working on this? If you're thinking of open-packages then I don't believe that it's up to this yet. I'm not aware of any other efforts. =20 Joe --P6PRkhImOxklJvkF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvKNM4ACgkQXVIcjOaxUBb1swCdH2RhukP0j5ig8RUxKctUa3Oe BSMAn0+6tgZ1TzeFVL5pkHt8jBNfrZwq =lwmA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --P6PRkhImOxklJvkF-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 14 18: 5:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from mao.stokely.org (mao.stokely.org [65.84.64.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 004BC37B40B; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mao.stokely.org (Postfix, from userid 2074) id B5D574B65D; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:05:07 -0700 From: Murray Stokely To: Eric Melville Cc: binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org>; from eric@FreeBSD.org on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 05:05:15PM -0700 X-GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/0E451F7D X-GPG-Key-Fingerprint: E2CA 411D DD44 53FD BB4B 3CB5 B4D7 10A2 0E45 1F7D Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 05:05:15PM -0700, Eric Melville wrote: > This weekend I sat down to work on some code for the binary updater, but I > didn't really get anything done because I thought that a few important > decisions where yet to be made, and really affect what I'm going to be > working on next. I don't think that the situation is any different than when this project started. > 1. I've heard speculation of an entirely new package framework, that would It's been talked about plenty of times. Jordan wrote a several page outline about what he wanted in a next generation package system at least 18 months ago. I'm personally a big fan of incremental change, and I would like to see the base system broken up using our current package framework for 5.0. =20 # pkg_add bin.tgz ;) - Murray --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (SunOS) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7yjZCtNcQog5FH30RAknIAJ4oqBPp2345PInKxWtEi7Rs7/DbGwCcDyUo KAP9Btm3xEB3BjicFcsJaxA= =7jSQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 14 18: 8:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76FB037B408; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 19E4113B; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 02:08:34 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 02:08:34 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Murray Stokely Cc: Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xd76R9tHJzDpbIo0" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com>; from murray@FreeBSD.org on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:05:07PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --xd76R9tHJzDpbIo0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:05:07PM -0700, Murray Stokely wrote: > On Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 05:05:15PM -0700, Eric Melville wrote: > > This weekend I sat down to work on some code for the binary updater, bu= t I > > didn't really get anything done because I thought that a few important > > decisions where yet to be made, and really affect what I'm going to be > > working on next. >=20 > I don't think that the situation is any different than when this > project started. >=20 > > 1. I've heard speculation of an entirely new package framework, that wo= uld >=20 > It's been talked about plenty of times. Jordan wrote a several page > outline about what he wanted in a next generation package system > at least 18 months ago. I'm personally a big fan of incremental > change, and I would like to see the base system broken up using our > current package framework for 5.0. =20 Our current package framework is inadequate. It needs to be reconstructed with a middle layer API to separate the underlying database representation from the package tools. Unfortuately the open-packages people don't appear to have realised this. :(. Joe --xd76R9tHJzDpbIo0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvKNxEACgkQXVIcjOaxUBb2twCfQusNBzMCZnAsrWLdR/mihM3q PoUAoK2wcR7EBPf4QQhm5q60N+e4QNhW =I86d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xd76R9tHJzDpbIo0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 14 18:17:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from mao.stokely.org (mao.stokely.org [65.84.64.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEC4937B40B; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mao.stokely.org (Postfix, from userid 2074) id 170D54B65D; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:17:09 -0700 From: Murray Stokely To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Murray Stokely , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <20011014181709.E2654@windriver.com> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk>; from joe@tao.org.uk on Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 02:08:34AM +0100 X-GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/0E451F7D X-GPG-Key-Fingerprint: E2CA 411D DD44 53FD BB4B 3CB5 B4D7 10A2 0E45 1F7D Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 02:08:34AM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: > Our current package framework is inadequate. It needs to be > reconstructed with a middle layer API to separate the underlying > database representation from the package tools. Unfortuately the > open-packages people don't appear to have realised this. :(. Do you mean something as simple as just moving some of the functionality of pkg_add into a libpkg so that other applications can use it? That's a weekend project at most and something I've definitely wanted for a long time. sysinstall would be an obvious consumer of this library, since sysinstall uses cpio to deal with packages and I've seen packages that pkg_add likes but sysinstall doesn't like. - Murray --TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (SunOS) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7yjkUtNcQog5FH30RAu2oAJ44DXg4zHR1+lfDRjbfiqiNzATSGwCeOjS2 QQ51BazYrfD9Sf57KgC/UfI= =4bLm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 14 18:31:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF12B37B405; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id ADD4413B; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 02:30:57 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 02:30:57 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Murray Stokely Cc: Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <20011015023057.A31066@tao.org.uk> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk> <20011014181709.E2654@windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="3IyuMspwcGTbYISR" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011014181709.E2654@windriver.com>; from murray@FreeBSD.org on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:17:09PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --3IyuMspwcGTbYISR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:17:09PM -0700, Murray Stokely wrote: > On Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 02:08:34AM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: > > Our current package framework is inadequate. It needs to be > > reconstructed with a middle layer API to separate the underlying > > database representation from the package tools. Unfortuately the > > open-packages people don't appear to have realised this. :(. >=20 > Do you mean something as simple as just moving some of the > functionality of pkg_add into a libpkg so that other applications can > use it? That's a weekend project at most and something I've > definitely wanted for a long time. sysinstall would be an obvious > consumer of this library, since sysinstall uses cpio to deal with > packages and I've seen packages that pkg_add likes but sysinstall > doesn't like. A little more than that. We need to do a proper design of the API before we code anything up. With the right API we should be able to do these kind of things: * Use an SQL database to record info on installed packages instead of using /var/db/pkg entries. * Plug new groups of ports in via a plug in module, like the bsdpan (CPAN) for installed perl modules. Package tools shouldn't be using /usr/ports/INDEX natively. They should be going through the API so that other modules can advertise what they're able to install also. There are loads of things that would benefit from this. Ruby, Latex, CPAN, etc. All of this whilst still using the package tools that we know and love. Joe --3IyuMspwcGTbYISR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvKPFEACgkQXVIcjOaxUBa+AACfSCFmOMe8Bt7xwZftbw7mVEWd ggkAoI2go4YTTeMvB3ibP3ixJibBdUyx =qoqr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --3IyuMspwcGTbYISR-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 14 18:35:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from mao.stokely.org (mao.stokely.org [65.84.64.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9EE37B408; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mao.stokely.org (Postfix, from userid 2074) id A9D994B65D; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:34:36 -0700 From: Murray Stokely To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Murray Stokely , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <20011014183436.F2654@windriver.com> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk> <20011014181709.E2654@windriver.com> <20011015023057.A31066@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011015023057.A31066@tao.org.uk>; from joe@tao.org.uk on Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 02:30:57AM +0100 X-GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/0E451F7D X-GPG-Key-Fingerprint: E2CA 411D DD44 53FD BB4B 3CB5 B4D7 10A2 0E45 1F7D Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 02:30:57AM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: > A little more than that. We need to do a proper design of the API > before we code anything up. With the right API we should be able > to do these kind of things: Why don't you write something up, then we'll hash it out on this smaller list for a bit, then post it to -hackers for wider review? - Murray To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sun Oct 14 18:39:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42A6437B403; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id D56D9D7; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 02:39:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 02:39:36 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Murray Stokely Cc: Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <20011015023936.B31066@tao.org.uk> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk> <20011014181709.E2654@windriver.com> <20011015023057.A31066@tao.org.uk> <20011014183436.F2654@windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="G5yIW5EaChZ5gJdA" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011014183436.F2654@windriver.com>; from murray@FreeBSD.org on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:34:36PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --G5yIW5EaChZ5gJdA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:34:36PM -0700, Murray Stokely wrote: > On Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 02:30:57AM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: > > A little more than that. We need to do a proper design of the API > > before we code anything up. With the right API we should be able > > to do these kind of things: >=20 > Why don't you write something up, then we'll hash it out on this > smaller list for a bit, then post it to -hackers for wider review? Ok, I'll ponder it for a few days and see what I can come up with. It's too late to think straight now - I was intending bed a few hours ago! :) Joe --G5yIW5EaChZ5gJdA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvKPlgACgkQXVIcjOaxUBbOJwCfZCINsvXW0upv5t97U6r4uCN5 cNUAnA7XK6EKyvs054sxiJTkb1CwcRrl =qdcX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --G5yIW5EaChZ5gJdA-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 10:18:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 74A5237B401; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:18:52 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: Josef Karthauser Cc: binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <20011016101852.A4211@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011015015854.X31066@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011015015854.X31066@tao.org.uk>; from joe@tao.org.uk on Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 01:58:54AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > 1. I've heard speculation of an entirely new package framework, that would > > include things such as base system components being installed as > > packages. Is this anywhere near reality for 5.0-RELEASE, or should it be > > considered a thought that has past? > > Who's working on this? If you're thinking of open-packages then I don't > believe that it's up to this yet. I'm not aware of any other efforts. This is stuff that Jordan has mentioned in the past. I don't think anyone is actively working on anything, however. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 10:21: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id EEAB237B40A; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:21:02 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: Murray Stokely Cc: binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <20011016102102.B4211@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com>; from murray@FreeBSD.org on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:05:07PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > This weekend I sat down to work on some code for the binary updater, but I > > didn't really get anything done because I thought that a few important > > decisions where yet to be made, and really affect what I'm going to be > > working on next. > > I don't think that the situation is any different than when this > project started. Yes, that's the problem. > It's been talked about plenty of times. Jordan wrote a several page > outline about what he wanted in a next generation package system > at least 18 months ago. I'm personally a big fan of incremental > change, and I would like to see the base system broken up using our > current package framework for 5.0. > > # pkg_add bin.tgz Well, the big gain would be specifically not having bin, but rather base, gcc, perl, and so on. I suppose you're talking about going to a bin package first as part of incremental change? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 10:31:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 6477937B40B; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:31:30 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <20011016103130.C4211@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk>; from joe@tao.org.uk on Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 02:08:34AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Our current package framework is inadequate. It needs to be > reconstructed with a middle layer API to separate the underlying > database representation from the package tools. Unfortuately the > open-packages people don't appear to have realised this. :(. It's always possible to take packages they produce and wrap them up with in a fashion suitable for our purposes. The big question is what are our purposes? I agree that our package framework is a little flimsy, but I would like to know what exactly you mean. I'm not sure removing the smarts from pkg_install is the way to go. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 10:34:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 92A1A37B408; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:34:34 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: Murray Stokely Cc: Josef Karthauser , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <20011016103434.D4211@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk> <20011014181709.E2654@windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011014181709.E2654@windriver.com>; from murray@FreeBSD.org on Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:17:09PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Do you mean something as simple as just moving some of the > functionality of pkg_add into a libpkg so that other applications can > use it? That's a weekend project at most and something I've > definitely wanted for a long time. sysinstall would be an obvious > consumer of this library, since sysinstall uses cpio to deal with > packages and I've seen packages that pkg_add likes but sysinstall > doesn't like. I tend to forget that sysinstall installs packages because I never use it, so disregard the prior comment about not seeing a gain from a libpkg. I'd still like more details about extending the package framework, however. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 11: 0:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id C424337B40B; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:00:56 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <20011016110056.E4211@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk> <20011014181709.E2654@windriver.com> <20011015023057.A31066@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011015023057.A31066@tao.org.uk>; from joe@tao.org.uk on Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 02:30:57AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > * Use an SQL database to record info on installed packages instead of > using /var/db/pkg entries. > > * Plug new groups of ports in via a plug in module, like the bsdpan > (CPAN) for installed perl modules. Package tools shouldn't be using > /usr/ports/INDEX natively. They should be going through the API so > that other modules can advertise what they're able to install also. > There are loads of things that would benefit from this. Ruby, Latex, > CPAN, etc. > > All of this whilst still using the package tools that we know and love. An SQL database is a pretty steep dependancy for something as simple as this. What limitations do we have with a simple filesystem-based means of storage? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 11: 1:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A102E37B405; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 929994F1; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:00:47 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:00:47 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Eric Melville Cc: Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <20011016190047.H83396@tao.org.uk> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk> <20011014181709.E2654@windriver.com> <20011016103434.D4211@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="iY5udFbGw2SsPZe4" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011016103434.D4211@FreeBSD.org>; from eric@FreeBSD.org on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 10:34:34AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --iY5udFbGw2SsPZe4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 10:34:34AM -0700, Eric Melville wrote: > > Do you mean something as simple as just moving some of the > > functionality of pkg_add into a libpkg so that other applications can > > use it? That's a weekend project at most and something I've > > definitely wanted for a long time. sysinstall would be an obvious > > consumer of this library, since sysinstall uses cpio to deal with > > packages and I've seen packages that pkg_add likes but sysinstall > > doesn't like. >=20 > I tend to forget that sysinstall installs packages because I never use it, > so disregard the prior comment about not seeing a gain from a libpkg. I'd > still like more details about extending the package framework, however. The key idea is to separate what is currently a bit convoluted. There are various core parts of the package system: * component installation database. what's installed, where and what versions. This is currently in /var/db/pkg. It should be possible to use other backends. It should be possible to drop a 'plug in' module in place to store this information in whatever way the admin wants. Why not a central SQL server containing info on all the servers/workstations in the cluster, for instance. * indexing, package availability and build functionality. At the moment /usr/ports/INDEX is the only way to know what can be installed. this should be abstracted. it should be possible to write, for instance, a CPAN module that connects to a CPAN mirror and abstracts a complete list of what modules are available and have the pkg_install tools automatically know about these too. If we get this right it would be possible to add whole chunks of new ports automatically by writing an interface module to the relevant system. Of the top of my head, ruby, perl, latex would benefit from these straight away. We already have a perl module in the tree that does the right thing (tm) when you install a perl module by hand. It creates a /var/db/pkg entry and allows the user to pkg_delete it afterward. This could be more tightly integrated. It's silly not to be able to directly take advantage of other project's module repositories. * package install, management tools. All of the pkg_* and sysinstall. These are intrinsically separate from the actual install processes. They should be properly abstracted to make that clear. * /usr/ports/XXXX The /usr/ports/ system is just one mechanism for installing packages. The BSDPAN module is another (perldoc BSDPAN). At the moment the lines between all of these parts of the packaging system are blurred. By contructing a proper API they can correctly defined, and allow us to have a far more powerful packaging system in the process. Joe --iY5udFbGw2SsPZe4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvMdc8ACgkQXVIcjOaxUBblPgCgyd7BGjUw1Gv0bgtE1iNLbNSY p7QAoOJBB/XKjpHmhCCNgqrhqvgXVlOg =9j4n -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --iY5udFbGw2SsPZe4-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 11: 2:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C597937B40F; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 31D44337; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:02:23 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:02:23 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Eric Melville Cc: Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <20011016190223.I83396@tao.org.uk> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk> <20011014181709.E2654@windriver.com> <20011015023057.A31066@tao.org.uk> <20011016110056.E4211@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7faAIFVyKtREcqXC" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011016110056.E4211@FreeBSD.org>; from eric@FreeBSD.org on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 11:00:56AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --7faAIFVyKtREcqXC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 11:00:56AM -0700, Eric Melville wrote: > > * Use an SQL database to record info on installed packages instead of > > using /var/db/pkg entries. > >=20 > > * Plug new groups of ports in via a plug in module, like the bsdpan > > (CPAN) for installed perl modules. Package tools shouldn't be using > > /usr/ports/INDEX natively. They should be going through the API so > > that other modules can advertise what they're able to install also. > > There are loads of things that would benefit from this. Ruby, Latex, > > CPAN, etc. > >=20 > > All of this whilst still using the package tools that we know and love. >=20 > An SQL database is a pretty steep dependancy for something as simple as > this. What limitations do we have with a simple filesystem-based means of > storage? None. The point is 'tools not policy'. It should be possible to separate the backend database description from the implementation of the package system so that anything is possible. At the moment it's not possible to do anything other than use /var/db/pkg/. I'm not saying that it should be default. I'm saying that it should be possible. Joe --7faAIFVyKtREcqXC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvMdi4ACgkQXVIcjOaxUBYqrACgoibctsBMtXbdbRkYxyl6Ey4b uXwAoNpnMm5biT5wQtuJeN94ltAyuIk8 =DTWq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --7faAIFVyKtREcqXC-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 11: 5: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 224D337B410; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:04:59 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <20011016110459.F4211@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk> <20011014181709.E2654@windriver.com> <20011015023057.A31066@tao.org.uk> <20011016110056.E4211@FreeBSD.org> <20011016190223.I83396@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011016190223.I83396@tao.org.uk>; from joe@tao.org.uk on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 07:02:23PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > None. The point is 'tools not policy'. It should be possible to > separate the backend database description from the implementation of the > package system so that anything is possible. At the moment it's not > possible to do anything other than use /var/db/pkg/. I'm not saying > that it should be default. I'm saying that it should be possible. I see, I misread the previous comment. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 11:14:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 908E737B408; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:14:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:14:18 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <20011016111418.G4211@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk> <20011014181709.E2654@windriver.com> <20011016103434.D4211@FreeBSD.org> <20011016190047.H83396@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011016190047.H83396@tao.org.uk>; from joe@tao.org.uk on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 07:00:47PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > There are various core parts of the package system: > > * component installation database. what's installed, where and what > versions. > > This is currently in /var/db/pkg. It should be possible to use other > backends. It should be possible to drop a 'plug in' module in place to > store this information in whatever way the admin wants. Why not a > central SQL server containing info on all the servers/workstations in > the cluster, for instance. > > * indexing, package availability and build functionality. > > At the moment /usr/ports/INDEX is the only way to know what can be > installed. this should be abstracted. it should be possible to write, > for instance, a CPAN module that connects to a CPAN mirror and abstracts > a complete list of what modules are available and have the pkg_install > tools automatically know about these too. If we get this right it would > be possible to add whole chunks of new ports automatically by writing an > interface module to the relevant system. Of the top of my head, ruby, > perl, latex would benefit from these straight away. > > We already have a perl module in the tree that does the right thing (tm) > when you install a perl module by hand. It creates a /var/db/pkg entry > and allows the user to pkg_delete it afterward. This could be more > tightly integrated. > > It's silly not to be able to directly take advantage of other project's > module repositories. > > * package install, management tools. > > All of the pkg_* and sysinstall. These are intrinsically separate from > the actual install processes. They should be properly abstracted to > make that clear. > > * /usr/ports/XXXX > > The /usr/ports/ system is just one mechanism for installing packages. > The BSDPAN module is another (perldoc BSDPAN). Excellent, it sounds like you've covered all of my concerns, the biggest of which was the usage of INDEX directly. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 11:15:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from mao.stokely.org (mao.stokely.org [65.84.64.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06A7937B403; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mao.stokely.org (Postfix, from userid 2074) id 295F94B65D; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:15:55 -0700 From: Murray Stokely To: Eric Melville Cc: Josef Karthauser , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: BSDCon Europe BOF Message-ID: <20011016111555.H6061@windriver.com> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk> <20011014181709.E2654@windriver.com> <20011016103434.D4211@FreeBSD.org> <20011016190047.H83396@tao.org.uk> <20011016111418.G4211@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011016111418.G4211@FreeBSD.org>; from eric@FreeBSD.org on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 11:14:18AM -0700 X-GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/0E451F7D X-GPG-Key-Fingerprint: E2CA 411D DD44 53FD BB4B 3CB5 B4D7 10A2 0E45 1F7D Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG We need a BOF to talk about this stuff at BSDCon Europe. Or maybe just an all day coding session to rip apart the package code. - Murray To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 11:19:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 719DB37B403; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 2E8B637E; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:19:24 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:19:24 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Murray Stokely Cc: Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BSDCon Europe BOF Message-ID: <20011016191924.M83396@tao.org.uk> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk> <20011014181709.E2654@windriver.com> <20011016103434.D4211@FreeBSD.org> <20011016190047.H83396@tao.org.uk> <20011016111418.G4211@FreeBSD.org> <20011016111555.H6061@windriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="yPvoiCUUfIqTdDlV" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011016111555.H6061@windriver.com>; from murray@FreeBSD.org on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 11:15:55AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --yPvoiCUUfIqTdDlV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 11:15:55AM -0700, Murray Stokely wrote: > We need a BOF to talk about this stuff at BSDCon Europe. Or maybe > just an all day coding session to rip apart the package code. Maybe, although I live in Brighton and therefore if you fancy staying a bit longer and working through this..... Joe --yPvoiCUUfIqTdDlV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvMeisACgkQXVIcjOaxUBYfbgCfUfF/bfreQRxy6d1hbxR3085B 43kAoOSO0p+0T3/iPI1rSGJxQZ+Zhqwp =HMf3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --yPvoiCUUfIqTdDlV-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 11:24:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED07237B407; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 4ACEF2C8; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:23:48 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:23:48 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Eric Melville Cc: Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <20011016192348.N83396@tao.org.uk> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk> <20011014181709.E2654@windriver.com> <20011016103434.D4211@FreeBSD.org> <20011016190047.H83396@tao.org.uk> <20011016111418.G4211@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lFd1dPlLw0MeZdw2" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011016111418.G4211@FreeBSD.org>; from eric@FreeBSD.org on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 11:14:18AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --lFd1dPlLw0MeZdw2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 11:14:18AM -0700, Eric Melville wrote: >=20 > Excellent, it sounds like you've covered all of my concerns, the biggest > of which was the usage of INDEX directly. >=20 The thing to remember is that INDEX is just the method that the /usr/ports package system uses to describe what's available to install. Other package modules, like bsdpan, will have their own way of advertising what's available. The only way to tie this altogether is to use an API with functions like: * which_package_modules() # Returns a list of modules that are # installed. /usr/ports isn't # necessarally installed. * which_packages(module_name) # What packages are available under the # specified module. It may be necessary # to have this function available as a # more general search function. * install_package(module_name, package_name) Joe --lFd1dPlLw0MeZdw2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvMezMACgkQXVIcjOaxUBbngACg59N6ePMqm2lQN1MjzVkZ6uTW xKUAnRsN6nBiHbrvU3bXAjDtwtGQWpKS =dFia -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --lFd1dPlLw0MeZdw2-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 11:24:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D0C37B405; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id DCD672C8; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:24:18 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:24:18 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Eric Melville Cc: Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Who else is on this list? Message-ID: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Rl6QTk5rIKeAVhSO" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --Rl6QTk5rIKeAVhSO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline BTW, Who else is on this list? Is it just us three? Joe --Rl6QTk5rIKeAVhSO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvMe1IACgkQXVIcjOaxUBYdrACgvq6UsgcNFb0apHGGYLC3IXsE P5EAoJsUyQc03gHKaVfuBYMREs1kHhjP =+zqZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Rl6QTk5rIKeAVhSO-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 12: 4:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3316A37B40C for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 910FB37E; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:04:18 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:04:18 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Anders Andersson Cc: binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Who else is on this list? Message-ID: <20011016200418.P83396@tao.org.uk> References: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk> <20011016205355.A29438@jellyfish.codefactory.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="90wTzOiXAbbhNsuN" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011016205355.A29438@jellyfish.codefactory.se>; from anders@codefactory.se on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 08:53:55PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --90wTzOiXAbbhNsuN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 08:53:55PM +0200, Anders Andersson wrote: > I am also on this list, and have been following the design discussion > with great interest. About a year ago (on the flight to BSDCon 2000) I > started to think about a general package API and also what you > discussed, an conversion (redesign) of pkg_* to a pkglib. >=20 > Since then time has run away from me and I had not yet had the time to=20 > write up a paper or even less some code for it.=20 >=20 > I will try to summary my thoughts and share it with this list. >=20 > I am a very big fan of the BSDPAN implementation and would also much > like to see this more integrated in ports/*. Although I cant make > it to BSDCon Europe, I hope the discussion will continue here. I hope so too. I've been thinking about this for about a year now. Joe --90wTzOiXAbbhNsuN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvMhLEACgkQXVIcjOaxUBbo2gCdGSZZv+ClgzgJ6SrLoFAP7iTD 1/4An2mS6+KY+RW3WFGRxGw/LESQwHDx =VRmE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --90wTzOiXAbbhNsuN-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 12:16:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from maile.telia.com (maile.telia.com [194.22.190.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BF1037B40F for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jellyfish.codefactory.se (t7o7p20.telia.com [194.237.158.140]) by maile.telia.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9GItId03493; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:55:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: by jellyfish.codefactory.se (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 083613E8A; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:53:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:53:55 +0200 From: Anders Andersson To: Josef Karthauser Cc: binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Who else is on this list? Message-ID: <20011016205355.A29438@jellyfish.codefactory.se> References: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 07:24:18PM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: > BTW, Who else is on this list? Is it just us three? I am also on this list, and have been following the design discussion with great interest. About a year ago (on the flight to BSDCon 2000) I started to think about a general package API and also what you discussed, an conversion (redesign) of pkg_* to a pkglib. Since then time has run away from me and I had not yet had the time to write up a paper or even less some code for it. I will try to summary my thoughts and share it with this list. I am a very big fan of the BSDPAN implementation and would also much like to see this more integrated in ports/*. Although I cant make it to BSDCon Europe, I hope the discussion will continue here. -- Anders Andersson anders@codefactory.se CodeFactory AB http://www.codefactory.se/ Office: +46 (0)31 711 99 35 Cell: +46 (0)70 587 53 35 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 13: 4:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from squall.waterspout.com (squall.waterspout.com [208.13.56.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E033637B40D; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by squall.waterspout.com (Postfix, from userid 1050) id 3B1B49B08; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:04:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:04:09 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Eric Melville , Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Who else is on this list? Message-ID: <20011016150409.P57251@squall.waterspout.com> Reply-To: Will Andrews References: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 07:24:18PM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: > BTW, Who else is on this list? Is it just us three? I'm here too. -- wca To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 13:17:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-3.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750E837B40F; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EB2E166B0E; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:17:14 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Eric Melville , Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who else is on this list? Message-ID: <20011016131714.A21030@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="liOOAslEiF7prFVr" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk>; from joe@tao.org.uk on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 07:24:18PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --liOOAslEiF7prFVr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 07:24:18PM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: > BTW, Who else is on this list? Is it just us three? I'm here, mostly to keep an eye on things and chime in on any issues I've already had to deal with in creating the binary security upgrade packages, or which affect my needs there. Kris --liOOAslEiF7prFVr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7zJXKWry0BWjoQKURAlsaAJ43cX6FxVlNsW109d/LL8682JbGHwCePq2P C2thACJRKHCbpubepWgLyyQ= =GwwP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --liOOAslEiF7prFVr-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 13:51:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from aeon.tvd.be (aeon.tvd.be [195.162.196.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3908037B411 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cocaine.cryolabs.net (cable-213-132-151-36.upc.chello.be [213.132.151.36]) by aeon.tvd.be (8.9.3/8.9.3/RELAY-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA17808 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:51:23 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:50:38 +0200 (CEST) From: Wouter Van Hemel To: binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Who else is on this list? In-Reply-To: <20011016150409.P57251@squall.waterspout.com> Message-ID: PGP: 0B B4 BC 28 53 62 FE 94 6A 57 EE B8 A6 E2 1B E4 (0xAA5412F0) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Will Andrews wrote: > On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 07:24:18PM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: > > BTW, Who else is on this list? Is it just us three? > > I'm here too. > And me, just waiting to say something interesting... ;) / wouter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 13:52: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from holly.dyndns.org (adsl-208-191-149-224.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [208.191.149.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3947437B40E; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.11.6/8.9.3) id f9GKqiR09679; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:52:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:52:44 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Eric Melville , Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who else is on this list? Message-ID: <20011016155244.C6252@holly.calldei.com> Reply-To: chris@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk>; from joe@tao.org.uk on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 07:24:18PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, October 16, 2001, Josef Karthauser wrote: > BTW, Who else is on this list? Is it just us three? I'm here, waiting for my old getArgs() patch to be acknowledged. And maybe helping out wherever else I see fit. :) -- +-------------------+---------------------------------------------------+ | Chris Costello | Implementation is the sincerest form of flattery. | | chris@FreeBSD.org | | +-------------------+---------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Tue Oct 16 13:58:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from ip-216-73-143-80.vantas.net (ip-216-73-143-80.vantas.net [216.73.143.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 326AE37B40F; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tenebras.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ip-216-73-143-80.vantas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9GKwJH00758; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:58:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Message-ID: <3BCC9F66.CF6F03B7@tenebras.com> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:58:14 -0700 From: Michael Sierchio Reply-To: kudzu@tenebras.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chris@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Josef Karthauser , Eric Melville , Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who else is on this list? References: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk> <20011016155244.C6252@holly.calldei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm here. My interest, as I tried to articulate in a previous post, is to develop some kind of trusted mechanism with strong authenticators for binary updates with a high degree of granularity. I don't think the package mechanism will work. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Wed Oct 17 2:11:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2096E37B40D; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 02:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id E940B2BF; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:11:13 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:11:13 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Michael Sierchio Cc: chris@FreeBSD.ORG, Eric Melville , Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who else is on this list? Message-ID: <20011017101113.C742@tao.org.uk> References: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk> <20011016155244.C6252@holly.calldei.com> <3BCC9F66.CF6F03B7@tenebras.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0lnxQi9hkpPO77W3" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BCC9F66.CF6F03B7@tenebras.com>; from kudzu@tenebras.com on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 01:58:14PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --0lnxQi9hkpPO77W3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 01:58:14PM -0700, Michael Sierchio wrote: >=20 > I'm here. My interest, as I tried to articulate in a previous post, > is to develop some kind of trusted mechanism with strong authenticators > for binary updates with a high degree of granularity. >=20 > I don't think the package mechanism will work. I don't think that the existing package framework will work, but if we get the pkgAPI right there would be nothing stopping someone from writing a new package module for it for dealing with binary upgrades. Joe --0lnxQi9hkpPO77W3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvNSzEACgkQXVIcjOaxUBZBtgCgiY9jUGQV2YJFxyKCcEYzMpf8 lrYAoN/ZPEkS1WTw8wneCV8KDLDMHFGY =/35u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0lnxQi9hkpPO77W3-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Wed Oct 17 2:27: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 468BA37B403; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 02:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3BE1D169; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:26:56 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:26:56 +0100 From: Paul Richards To: Josef Karthauser , Michael Sierchio Cc: chris@FreeBSD.ORG, Eric Melville , Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who else is on this list? Message-ID: <294490000.1003310816@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20011017101113.C742@tao.org.uk> References: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk> <20011016155244.C6252@holly.calldei.com> <3BCC9F66.CF6F03B7@tenebras.com> <20011017101113.C742@tao.org.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm here too. Joe, we could get together and thrash some of this out at the con. --On Wednesday, October 17, 2001 10:11:13 +0100 Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 01:58:14PM -0700, Michael Sierchio wrote: >> >> I'm here. My interest, as I tried to articulate in a previous post, >> is to develop some kind of trusted mechanism with strong authenticators >> for binary updates with a high degree of granularity. >> >> I don't think the package mechanism will work. > > I don't think that the existing package framework will work, but if we > get the pkgAPI right there would be nothing stopping someone from > writing a new package module for it for dealing with binary upgrades. > > Joe Paul Richards FreeBSD Services Ltd http://www.freebsd-services.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Wed Oct 17 2:32:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3DE737B405; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 02:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id AF76C232; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:31:57 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:31:57 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Paul Richards Cc: Michael Sierchio , chris@FreeBSD.ORG, Eric Melville , Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who else is on this list? Message-ID: <20011017103157.D742@tao.org.uk> References: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk> <20011016155244.C6252@holly.calldei.com> <3BCC9F66.CF6F03B7@tenebras.com> <20011017101113.C742@tao.org.uk> <294490000.1003310816@lobster.originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UoPmpPX/dBe4BELn" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <294490000.1003310816@lobster.originative.co.uk>; from paul@freebsd-services.com on Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 10:26:56AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --UoPmpPX/dBe4BELn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 10:26:56AM +0100, Paul Richards wrote: > I'm here too. >=20 > Joe, we could get together and thrash some of this out at the con. If we've got some time then why not? Who else is going to be there other than Murray, you and me? Joe --UoPmpPX/dBe4BELn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvNUA0ACgkQXVIcjOaxUBbzpACg0DQcK0BYzp1gY2VmTjEqWCh3 8c8An2wXoqMPWFMeRgF9tICX0ZqeA2fz =bw48 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UoPmpPX/dBe4BELn-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Wed Oct 17 2:36:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 357BE37B405; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 02:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53EFF1D169; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:36:17 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:36:17 +0100 From: Paul Richards To: Josef Karthauser , Eric Melville Cc: Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: design issues Message-ID: <300560000.1003311377@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20011016190047.H83396@tao.org.uk> References: <20011014170515.B39749@FreeBSD.org> <20011014180507.D2654@windriver.com> <20011015020834.Y31066@tao.org.uk> <20011014181709.E2654@windriver.com> <20011016103434.D4211@FreeBSD.org> <20011016190047.H83396@tao.org.uk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --On Tuesday, October 16, 2001 19:00:47 +0100 Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 10:34:34AM -0700, Eric Melville wrote: >> > Do you mean something as simple as just moving some of the >> > functionality of pkg_add into a libpkg so that other applications can >> > use it? That's a weekend project at most and something I've >> > definitely wanted for a long time. sysinstall would be an obvious >> > consumer of this library, since sysinstall uses cpio to deal with >> > packages and I've seen packages that pkg_add likes but sysinstall >> > doesn't like. >> >> I tend to forget that sysinstall installs packages because I never use >> it, so disregard the prior comment about not seeing a gain from a >> libpkg. I'd still like more details about extending the package >> framework, however. > > The key idea is to separate what is currently a bit convoluted. > > There are various core parts of the package system: > > * component installation database. what's installed, where and what > versions. > > This is currently in /var/db/pkg. It should be possible to use other > backends. It should be possible to drop a 'plug in' module in place to > store this information in whatever way the admin wants. Why not a > central SQL server containing info on all the servers/workstations in > the cluster, for instance. I think this should be totally independent of the package system. I'd like a installation database that covers the whole of my system, and maybe even the whole of my network. It would provide a central repository to tell me where every component on my systems came from, which ones aren't registered in the repository and which have changed. It wouldn't be hard to implement, all that's needed is an API that registers objects in the repository. Then over time pkg* tools and other installation mechanisms can be built that use the API to register objects. As Joe's pointed out, the API should be backend neutral so in the simplest case /var/db/pkg can be used, on a more complex site a SQL database could record all objects across a complex network. Everything else would fall out of this cornerstone. Installers can be written for any number of different formats, native core OS binaries, CPAN, RPM packages etc, all that's needed is an installer for that format that uses the API to register installed objects in the repository. Paul Richards FreeBSD Services Ltd http://www.freebsd-services.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Wed Oct 17 7:57:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id AA71D37B403; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 07:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 07:57:55 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Paul Richards , Michael Sierchio , chris@FreeBSD.ORG, Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who else is on this list? Message-ID: <20011017075755.A86286@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk> <20011016155244.C6252@holly.calldei.com> <3BCC9F66.CF6F03B7@tenebras.com> <20011017101113.C742@tao.org.uk> <294490000.1003310816@lobster.originative.co.uk> <20011017103157.D742@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011017103157.D742@tao.org.uk>; from joe@tao.org.uk on Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 10:31:57AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If we've got some time then why not? Who else is going to be there > other than Murray, you and me? I was going to be, but unfortunately I'll have to wait until february for my next BSD conference. I hope some of the european folks will be coming here for that one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Wed Oct 17 7:59:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E27F037B408; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 07:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 721BF2BF; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:59:03 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:59:03 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Eric Melville Cc: Paul Richards , Michael Sierchio , chris@FreeBSD.ORG, Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who else is on this list? Message-ID: <20011017155903.A15698@tao.org.uk> References: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk> <20011016155244.C6252@holly.calldei.com> <3BCC9F66.CF6F03B7@tenebras.com> <20011017101113.C742@tao.org.uk> <294490000.1003310816@lobster.originative.co.uk> <20011017103157.D742@tao.org.uk> <20011017075755.A86286@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011017075755.A86286@FreeBSD.org>; from eric@FreeBSD.org on Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 07:57:55AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 07:57:55AM -0700, Eric Melville wrote: > > If we've got some time then why not? Who else is going to be there > > other than Murray, you and me? >=20 > I was going to be, but unfortunately I'll have to wait until february for > my next BSD conference. I hope some of the european folks will be coming > here for that one. I'd love to, but with no income currently it's a bit difficult to justify :(. Joe --uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvNnLYACgkQXVIcjOaxUBagEwCeMUB1O9ZCZdkfiaIz0y2gJmtt Lz0AoMMoeN4HQbFPGSlz0i5mU3/74BZS =kuE4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Wed Oct 17 22:39: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 2CFFC37B401; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:39:07 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: robert+freebsd.monthly@cyrus.watson.org Cc: binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: binup project status Message-ID: <20011017223907.A41339@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Project: binup URL: http://www.FreeBSD.org/projects/updater.html Contact: Eric Melville , Murray Stokely The project has gained a mailing list, freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.org - and the source tree has been moved into the projects/ directory in the FreeBSD CVS repository. Current work is focusing on extending the FreeBSD package framework, and the client library should be rewritten and completed by the end of the year. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Wed Oct 17 22:44: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id E6FCE37B403; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:44:07 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: Chris Costello Cc: Josef Karthauser , Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who else is on this list? Message-ID: <20011017224407.A41484@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk> <20011016155244.C6252@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011016155244.C6252@holly.calldei.com>; from chris@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 03:52:44PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'm here, waiting for my old getArgs() patch to be > acknowledged. And maybe helping out wherever else I see fit. :) It's in my local tree, thanks. I'm going to remove and replace most of the client side of the repository once I'm done, one of these months. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Wed Oct 17 22:46:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 8FA4537B403; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:46:18 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: Michael Sierchio Cc: chris@FreeBSD.ORG, Josef Karthauser , Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who else is on this list? Message-ID: <20011017224618.B41484@FreeBSD.org> References: <20011016192418.O83396@tao.org.uk> <20011016155244.C6252@holly.calldei.com> <3BCC9F66.CF6F03B7@tenebras.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BCC9F66.CF6F03B7@tenebras.com>; from kudzu@tenebras.com on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 01:58:14PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'm here. My interest, as I tried to articulate in a previous post, > is to develop some kind of trusted mechanism with strong authenticators > for binary updates with a high degree of granularity. > > I don't think the package mechanism will work. Well, certainly not as it exists now. The idea is to extend the package framework so it can do all of these neat things. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Thu Oct 18 0:20:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from gate2.rila.bg (gate2.rila.bg [212.39.75.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BDE9B37B401 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 00:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: FROM earth.rila.bg BY gate2.rila.bg ; Thu Oct 18 10:20:30 2001 +0300 Received: from earth.rila.bg (mitko@localhost.rila.bg [127.0.0.1]) by earth.rila.bg (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9I7LZa32907 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:21:36 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from mitko@earth.rila.bg) Message-Id: <200110180721.f9I7LZa32907@earth.rila.bg> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: binup@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: mitko@rila.bg From: "Dimitar Peikov" Subject: RE: Who else ... Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251 Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:21:35 +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I'm listening too, but now I'm having some problems, so I'm keeping eye on this list. -- Dimitar Peikov Programmer Analyst Globalization Group "We Build e-Business" RILA Solutions 27 Building, Acad.G.Bonchev Str. 1113 Sofia, Bulgaria phone: (+359 2) 9797320 phone: (+359 2) 9797300 fax: (+359 2) 9733355 http://www.rila.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Thu Oct 18 5:46:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from Awfulhak.org (gw.Awfulhak.org [217.204.245.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C366337B405; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 05:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org [fec0::1:12]) by Awfulhak.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9ICkiT09988; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:46:44 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@freebsd-services.com) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9ICkbb76004; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:46:37 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@freebsd-services.com) Message-Id: <200110181246.f9ICkbb76004@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Eric Melville Cc: robert+freebsd.monthly@cyrus.watson.org, binup@FreeBSD.ORG, brian@freebsd-services.com Subject: Re: binup project status In-Reply-To: Message from Eric Melville of "Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:39:07 PDT." <20011017223907.A41339@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:46:37 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Project: binup > URL: http://www.FreeBSD.org/projects/updater.html > Contact: Eric Melville , Murray Stokely > > The project has gained a mailing list, freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.org - and the > source tree has been moved into the projects/ directory in the FreeBSD CVS > repository. Current work is focusing on extending the FreeBSD package > framework, and the client library should be rewritten and completed by the > end of the year. Todo: make the projects/ hierarchy into a cvsup distribution and add it to cvs-all. Then update distrib.self. -- Brian http://www.freebsd-services.com/ Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Thu Oct 18 5:47:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from Awfulhak.org (gw.Awfulhak.org [217.204.245.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29BA637B405; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 05:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org [fec0::1:12]) by Awfulhak.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9IClET10000; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:47:14 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@freebsd-services.com) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9ICl8b76024; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:47:08 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@freebsd-services.com) Message-Id: <200110181247.f9ICl8b76024@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Paul Richards , Michael Sierchio , chris@FreeBSD.ORG, Eric Melville , Murray Stokely , binup@FreeBSD.ORG, brian@freebsd-services.com Subject: Re: Who else is on this list? In-Reply-To: Message from Josef Karthauser of "Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:31:57 BST." <20011017103157.D742@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:47:08 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 10:26:56AM +0100, Paul Richards wrote: > > I'm here too. > >=20 > > Joe, we could get together and thrash some of this out at the con. > > If we've got some time then why not? Who else is going to be there > other than Murray, you and me? I might be there. > Joe -- Brian http://www.freebsd-services.com/ Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Thu Oct 18 16:53:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from cecov.masternet.it (cecov.masternet.it [194.184.65.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CA337B405 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usul.scotty.masternet.it (modem08.masternet.it [194.184.65.203]) by cecov.masternet.it (8.11.6/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f9INtvP36111 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 01:55:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011019015344.027b51f8@194.184.65.7> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.7 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 01:54:15 +0200 To: binup@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: RE: Who else ... In-Reply-To: <200110180721.f9I7LZa32907@earth.rila.bg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 18/10/2001, you wrote: >Hi, I'm listening too, but now I'm having some problems, so I'm keeping >eye on >this list. I am here too, listening very carefully ... Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.gufi.org/~gmarco To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Thu Oct 18 20:13: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from jamus.xpert.com (jamus.xpert.com [199.203.132.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB2D037B4CF for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yonatan (helo=localhost) by jamus.xpert.com with local-esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15uR3b-0001Bk-00 for binup@freebsd.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 06:14:51 +0200 Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 06:14:51 +0200 (IST) From: Yonatan Bokovza To: Subject: design issues [3 frags left] (long) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I'd like to throw upon y'all this opinion before we proceed any further with the development. Please, this topic is highly bikeshadeable. Don't! Lets take a step back and see what is it we're trying to accomplish: (Or as I often say to my clients "First we define optimal, then we get there"). There are several times in the lifespan of a server where it _must_ communicate with other parties (downloading files from the Internet, cp-ing tarballs to /usr/ports/distfiles etc...) : 1. Complete OS upgrade. The equal, in FreeBSD, of cvsupping "stable", building and installing the world and the kernel. Does not occur very often on stable-production servers. Occurs much more often on development or DeskTop installations. cvsup handles that. 2. 3rd party software installations. After a fresh install, we usually want our server to actually do something, run a web service, DNS, mail or alike. These 3rd party software, as well as assorted tools for maintenance are what we refer to in this section. Being that this section is the only one dedicated to 3rd party software, the topic of upgrading it also falls in this category (upgrading apache-1.3.9 to 1.3.22, but not 4.4-Release to -Stable or the next -Release). Our ports/packages handles that, with the help of cvsup to update the ports tree. (I'm not familiar with BSDPAN, please include a link to more data in your reply.) 3. Security patches. Ideally, this is the only updates a server receives between major updates of the server-software or the operating-system-software. This is a small batch of data, that's important to apply fast. These are handled manually. (Yes, I know the patches are incorporated into -stable and updates in the ports tree. But no sane sysadmin will rebuild he's world to patch "ls". Same for ports, no sane admin will install a new version of stable and running server if he can get away with a small patch, small build and small reinstall.) Security Requirements for all modes: Authentication, of parties: Those files are _really_ from cvsup1.freebsd.org and not from cvsup1.badguys.org . Authentication, of data: Those are _really_ the files I requested. _not_ confidentiality: that's the facet meaning "no one can understand what's this data I'm downloading from cvsup[1-16].freebsd.org . The only two important bits we need to know about the data is that it's right (no tampering) and that we're taking it from the right place (no server/session spoofing/hijacking). Typical systems: The server-ish environment I was referring to before is one example of an archetypical system. Low maintenance is the key here. Like, installing release, upgrading server-software on important occasions, installing relevant security patches on the fly, and installing the next release again. Suppose our FreeBSD system will end up linux-ish (pardon..), in the sense that it will consist of a kernel and additional packages. Maybe one package will not be optional as it requires for the installment of the kernel and the other packages (i.e. gcc, ln, bourne-shell, make, the static-bins... ). Or we have a DeskTop-like machine, where the worldly updates are common, and 3rd party packages are installed and deinstalled on a daily basis. Data analysis: What data do we need, where is it stored, what's the security features it needs, and where does it goes too. Define "server"= Several designated servers that serves the entire userbase. cvsup[1-16].freebsd.org (for example). Define "client"= A machine running FreeBSD that utilize out binary updater. Looking at the server is (almost) simple, This is the data the server needs to hold: Unique data: A. Proof of the server's identity (for authentication). B. [Optionally] Mirror of all the packages binaries/tarballs. Single package metadata: 1. General options. 2. [Optionally] Metadata authentication. For every binary needed to install: 3. Mirrors for this binary. 4. authentication data (we'll talk about why it needs to be stored instead of generated- later). 5. [Optionally] Patches for this binary (if it's in a tarball of it's own, have another record for mirrors and authentication data. Optionally: 6. Multiple versions of all of the above (sorted by version or date). That's all I can think of when it comes to the server. Let's go over each and every part and explain: The sharper reader probably noticed the solution I'm going to offer will require server authentication, hence digital-signing capabilities. I'll even jump the wagon and say PKI and CA and X509.V3. Unique: The proof of the server's identity [A] should (in this solution), be kept secret and used to sign data to prove the server originated it. This is an elaborate scheme and need further thought and I'd be happy to hear of better options. [B] might be used to verify to the client that the metadata he's receiving is real. We have no assurance, today, that the data we cvsup is untouched. This should change, and the ideal way (TMHO) is that the updating procedure (the downloading of package metadata) will also be secure. package: [1] will hold the nomenclature (category/name), version, the dependencies, flags (like BROKEN) maybe a list of installed files. A cool feature would be to take note (like, size+date+time or signature) of the files as they are installed, and verbosely not remove any file that changes. This will stop "deinstallation" from removing config files. But that's for later. An important thing that's stored in here are references to security patches. The client should be able to ask "Are there any security patches for asd-1.2_3 ?" and the server should be able to answer "NO" or "yes, it's patch-cc". Anyone can think of a better scheme to maintaining patches in separate from the main tree? [2] This is very similar to out current md5 signatures stored in distfiles, only it will be used to authenticate the patched and the rest of the metadata. [3] again, like today, is list of pointers to the rest of the world. [4] could be incorporated in the previous [2]. The point of this one is to assure the safe transfer of our binary from the mirror to it's destination, like today's distfiles md5 signature. [5] are today's patch-??. No need to elaborate on this one. [6] if stuff wasn't complex enough, we could evade erasing any thing we do and allow clients to request packages by date/version, and not only the newest. Let's take a look at the client: The singular data the client holds: Preknowledge of the servers identity (i.e. certificate footprint). The client must hold two, maybe intersecting, databases: A. Database of all the most update packages, consisting of: 1. General options. For every binary needed to install: 2. [Optionally] Patches for this binary (if it's in a tarball of it's own, have another record for mirrors and authentication data. 3. Mirrors for this binary. B. database of installed packages. 1. General options. 2. xref to [A] for the purpose of updating the package. Note the client holds no "Authentication data" but the minimum reqd. to assure the server's identity and signatures. Elaborating: [A] First and foremost, we should consider installments where this database does not exist. Production servers should have no use for it. Maybe the solution would be to install binary packages. This is the equivalent of today's ports tree. [B] This is the only database in the system which I don't like the idea of it being public. Call me paranoid, but I prefer my users not having such an easy access to find out what's installed and what version is it. This data is most crucial when planning an attack. That's also the reason I wouldn't want [A] on my servers- there's no need for it to be there, once we're running. Oh well, maybe just "wheel" members. The system I designed here shares many things in common with the ports tree and the packaging system. The updating of the security-patches has it's tweak. That means we're left with finding a solution for the "complete OS upgrade". Maybe defining the kernel and the "world" as packages with huge sources tarball... K, it's nearing 05:00 and I should _really_ get some sleep. Blame any logical faults and spelling errors on this time of night. P.S. That's my way of saying "I'm on this list too". :-) Yonatan Bokovza To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Fri Oct 19 7: 6:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A3D37B403; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 3F07A43; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:12:29 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:12:29 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Brian Somers Cc: Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: binup project status Message-ID: <20011018191229.A805@tao.org.uk> References: <200110181246.f9ICkbb76004@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/04w6evG8XlLl3ft" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200110181246.f9ICkbb76004@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org>; from brian@freebsd-services.com on Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 01:46:37PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --/04w6evG8XlLl3ft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 01:46:37PM +0100, Brian Somers wrote: > > Project: binup > > URL: http://www.FreeBSD.org/projects/updater.html > > Contact: Eric Melville , Murray Stokely > >=20 > > The project has gained a mailing list, freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.org - an= d the > > source tree has been moved into the projects/ directory in the FreeBS= D CVS > > repository. Current work is focusing on extending the FreeBSD package > > framework, and the client library should be rewritten and completed b= y the > > end of the year. >=20 > Todo: make the projects/ hierarchy into a cvsup distribution and add=20 > it to cvs-all. Then update distrib.self. Too late, already done :). John Polstra should be kicking cvsupd on Freefall this evening. Joe --/04w6evG8XlLl3ft Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvPG4wACgkQXVIcjOaxUBYyggCdHbo0a4mVaek4X+0PUROlpviQ 1tAAmgMgz9Q6Z5GSMt/NSc7mo6yLir1h =go49 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/04w6evG8XlLl3ft-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Fri Oct 19 7:11:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from Awfulhak.org (gw.Awfulhak.org [217.204.245.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C2B237B403; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org [fec0::1:12]) by Awfulhak.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9JEBQT16042; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:11:26 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@freebsd-services.com) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9JEBNb97188; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:11:23 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@freebsd-services.com) Message-Id: <200110191411.f9JEBNb97188@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Brian Somers , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.ORG, brian@freebsd-services.com Subject: Re: binup project status In-Reply-To: Message from Josef Karthauser of "Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:12:29 BST." <20011018191229.A805@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:11:23 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 01:46:37PM +0100, Brian Somers wrote: > > > Project: binup > > > URL: http://www.FreeBSD.org/projects/updater.html > > > Contact: Eric Melville , Murray Stokely SD.org> > > >=20 > > > The project has gained a mailing list, freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.org - an= > d the > > > source tree has been moved into the projects/ directory in the FreeBS= > D CVS > > > repository. Current work is focusing on extending the FreeBSD package > > > framework, and the client library should be rewritten and completed b= > y the > > > end of the year. > >=20 > > Todo: make the projects/ hierarchy into a cvsup distribution and add=20 > > it to cvs-all. Then update distrib.self. > > Too late, already done :). John Polstra should be kicking cvsupd on > Freefall this evening. Yes, the new repository info was made available immediately (cvsup's distrib.self stuff). > Joe -- Brian http://www.freebsd-services.com/ Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Fri Oct 19 7:58:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCF9337B401; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 07:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id C895D5C; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:58:08 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:58:08 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Brian Somers Cc: Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: binup project status Message-ID: <20011019155808.H779@tao.org.uk> References: <200110191411.f9JEBNb97188@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zhtSGe8h3+lMyY1M" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200110191411.f9JEBNb97188@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org>; from brian@freebsd-services.com on Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:11:23PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --zhtSGe8h3+lMyY1M Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:11:23PM +0100, Brian Somers wrote: > > Too late, already done :). John Polstra should be kicking cvsupd on > > Freefall this evening. >=20 > Yes, the new repository info was made available immediately (cvsup's=20 > distrib.self stuff). Apparently the master cvsup server still needs a manual kick according to jdp anyway. > seem somewhat out of step> Yes, I sent the message on the train last night; but didn't get any connectivity back until today. Joe --zhtSGe8h3+lMyY1M Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvQP4AACgkQXVIcjOaxUBa64wCfakJ3lD7Szkm+hvXwqzrOw/X3 DwIAn1GRAJS0AuVBoy0OgeXGQ+/bV2GZ =f5OI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zhtSGe8h3+lMyY1M-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sat Oct 20 20:21:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 22F3937B405; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:21:53 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: binup@FreeBSD.org Cc: libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: current project steps Message-ID: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The way I see it, the big picture steps for binup are: 1. Extend package framework with middle layer API and system packages 2. Work concept of system packages into the FreeBSD tree 3. Create library with basic portupgrade functionality and network protocol 4. Write applications that use this library to update the system Use of binup and the source tree should not be mutually exclusive. It should be possible to upgrade a system from source, then a month later, upgrade it with binup, and then return using the source tree without hassle. This is not trivial, but assumedly could be accomplished by using the mk makefiles to register system components in the package database as it installs them. Additionally, after the client library is completed, I would like to make usage of a binup server a valid means of installation for libh. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message