From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 14 4:30:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picalon.gun.de (picalon.gun.de [192.109.159.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8945837B400 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 04:30:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by picalon.gun.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA11561; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 13:30:14 +0100 (MET) >Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0EC5AD41062; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 13:05:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 13:05:10 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: Bernhard Beck Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: altavistas babelfish (was Re: Athlon Thunderbird 700 w. Asus K7M Motherboard vs. FreeBSD 4.2) Message-ID: <20010114130509.A40793@titan.klemm.gtn.com> References: <3A5F1F43.EE70CB3C@inode.at> <20010112161044.A97484@walton.maths.tcd.ie> <009e01c07cb7$132d9e30$3028680a@tgt.com> <3A5F3951.9932EED5@mindmaker.com> <00d101c07cbe$4f1f84b0$3028680a@tgt.com> <3A5F95AF.F8B120D4@mindmaker.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A5F95AF.F8B120D4@mindmaker.com>; from bbeck@mindmaker.com on Fri, Jan 12, 2001 at 03:39:27PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE SMP X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jan 12, 2001 at 03:39:27PM -0800, Bernhard Beck wrote: > According to an article published in c't 14/2000, page 32 (online at > http://www.heise.de/ct/00/14/032/default.shtml, use Altavista's > Babelfish to translate), The translation using babelfish is funny ;-) "Best" results you get if you translate the translation back using babelfish again ;-) Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD 4.2 SMP Need a magic printfilter today ? -> http://www.apsfilter.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 14 10: 4:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uvika.dn.ua (unknown [195.184.223.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BFCB37B400 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:03:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from uvika.dn.ua (i-ris.donbass.com [195.184.222.22]) by uvika.dn.ua (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f0EI31899838 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 20:03:03 +0200 (EET) Message-Id: <200101141803.f0EI31899838@uvika.dn.ua> From: "Igor E. Segal" To: Subject: Momentary readout information Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 20:03:28 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dear Sears! We are glad to propose You the unique opportunity of fundamental life changing with the consultation of Universe Informational Center. We suggest momentary readout information from any animate and inanimate object independently from time and distance. Diagnostics of everything alive, that exists on the Earth and in the Space. It's enough for you to name the living being and the age or the object of your interest, its number and what you'd like to find out about it. The exactness of answer depends on the exactness of an asked question. Everything occurs as in computer system. You formulate your question, briefly and exactly, and receive a brief and exact answer. SCIENCE, TECHNICS, ASTRONAUTICS We can diagnose any facilities, buildings, constructions, examine the lands for construction. We can analyse of expedience and prospects of developed scientific, military and state programs, scientific hypothesis and discoveries. Drawing conclusions about all future positive and negative qualities of an invention, including every detail of a future machine. If it is a vehicle for Mars or Venus - we'll describe its mode of work and its service life at this planet. We'll say beforehand what detail will go out of service and why, what is desirable to improve, to change and so on. At the same time we can already now describe not only what your vehicle will find there, but also what is really exists there: kind of vegetation, its color, growth, taste, smell, presence of water, minerals, forms of intellect, etc. We know the time of contact failure with any apparatus at any planet, we can find the reason and re-establish the contact. For military, navy, space and other subdivisions of state and united forces without departure to the location we can instantly look through the technical condition of any fighting unit, warship, spaceship of any country, professional training of any separate serviceman, an expedience of war actions and their final result, and we can give answers to other questions of interest. Complete examination of all military and civil planes, rockets, etc. As to their security and a state of wear at the whole territory of any country. Instant checking of service ability of all devices, reactors, control instruments and sensors at any sections independently of its distance and location. Prediction of the any spaceship launch result 3-4 days before the event. In case of unsuccessful launch we can locate the cause of a fault in a spaceship beforehand. It's possible to invent the machines of the far future (XXI, XXII c.) now. Several minutes it is enough to form future staff of designers, scientists, leaders - to choose the most talented of all students of high schools (in any branch). It's possible to talk to any archaeological finding, to go with it deep through decades, centuries, millennium, etc. An instant answer whether there is a virus in your computer. Answers to the questions of science: structure of the Universe, genesis of human and all animate, the secrets of microcosm, of gene structures and activity of human brain, search of new sources of energy, mysteries of time, etc. Examination of the Earth, the Sun, the Moon, any planet, etc. in section. Questions should be asked by specialists, the answers will be given instantly and at once to any question. PUBLIC HEALTH, ECOLOGY According to your wish we can examine the state of each organ separately: blond circulatory, nervous and other systems. Complete diagnostics of any person health during several minutes independently of distance and location. ( It's enough to point out name and age). We can analyze suitability of any medicine to a definite person, expedience of an impending operation and its reasons. If you are still going to be operated, I can prompt a favorable dale and hour for a perfect operation. ( It's enough to point out a doctor's name and place of operation). We can predict and examine the course of pregnancy, sex and growth of a baby, etc. For specialists - the medicine of future, the methods of struggle with cancer, viruses, ageing, vaccine against AIDS and other questions. Examination of territory and food as to their ecological safety. ECONOMICS, POLITICS Prediction of real chances of victory in pre-election and election campaigns of this or that candidate. Any member of government can instantly find out what is dune in other government establishments, their true attitude to governments and to the country in the whole. It is possible to find out what is done in any town of country, etc. In case you have to lead business meetings, you may know it beforehand how negotiations will go what can be expected from your partners, to financial state, the results of negotiations, future deals, credit rating of your partners and whether al all they have that what they offer you. You may know it beforehand whether your money or credit you are going to lend be returnable. (It is enough to name a debtor). If you hire a man for work, it is enough for you to name a position he is hired for and you may know all about his professional, business and human qualities, etc. For the leaders of all levels - all questions related their life and activity, including the questions of security. PRIVATE With our help you may talk to any relatives and acquaintances at any distance, find out their true attitude towards you, their thoughts, thoughts and attitude to you of your pets, trees and flowers in your garden, your cars - of all animate and inanimate objects. You may know what name is suitable for your child, what occupation your child is intended for, whether it is worth for him or her to marry (expedience of this or that marriage and its reasons). Your past (including your last lives), present and future. Your predestination and tasks in this life. The ways of solving problems. You'll get assistance in buying any immovable property. It is possible to examine quality of any selected wares, safety of your trips, flights and voyages. If you want to know about the weather in a day of your interest, it is enough for you to point out a day of week, month, year and You will get all necessary information. We have a favour to ask for You don`t ask the questions about non-existent objects and criminal or heated - playing features. Our work is being constructed at the base of agreement or contract. Please, ask You first three questions for free and, if You will satisfied by the results, we shell sign agreement about consultation. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 14 13:14:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout02.sul.t-online.com (mailout02.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC6737B6A4; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 13:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from fwd01.sul.t-online.com by mailout02.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 14HuTu-00058V-00; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 22:14:30 +0100 Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (520050424122-0001@[62.225.193.59]) by fmrl01.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 14HuTZ-18S5tQC; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 22:14:09 +0100 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A0DAB0C; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 22:15:37 +0100 (CET) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 28AE914A5F; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 22:14:09 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 22:14:09 +0100 From: Alexander Langer To: "Vanilla I. Shu" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/lang Makefile ports/lang/scriba Makefile distinfo pkg-comment pkg-descr pkg-plist ports/lang/scriba/files patch-aa patch-ab patch-ac patch-ad patch-ae patch-af patch-ag Message-ID: <20010114221409.B1340@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , "Vanilla I. Shu" , chat@freebsd.org References: <200101141945.f0EJjVr71253@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200101141945.f0EJjVr71253@freefall.freebsd.org>; from vanilla@freebsd.org on Sun, Jan 14, 2001 at 11:45:31AM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. X-Sender: 520050424122-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Vanilla I. Shu (vanilla@freebsd.org): > ScriptBasic is a scripting implementation of the BASIC language. The > aim of this implementation is to provide a general and widely used > tool for the simple programmer. One of the reason behind the success Cool, we now finally have a base for mail-virii that have become famous for the last months. Anyone has patches for mutt handy to make it proper execute them? Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 15 0:58:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BF6837B400 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:57:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from WhizKid (r38.bfm.org [216.127.220.134]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 03:00:18 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010115025611.009b1b80@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 02:56:11 -0600 To: From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Momentary readout information In-Reply-To: <200101141803.f0EI31899838@uvika.dn.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 20:03 14-01-2001 +0200, Igor E. Segal wrote: > Dear Sears! Are you sure you did not mean to send this to JC Penney? --- Whiz Kid Technomagic - brand name computers for less. See http://www.whizkidtech.net/pcwarehouse/ for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 15 3:28:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sina.com (unknown [202.106.187.156]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7186C37B699 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 03:28:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 42035 invoked from network); 15 Jan 2001 11:22:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) (202.105.12.29) by 202.106.187.156 with SMTP; 15 Jan 2001 11:22:41 -0000 X-Sender: hangersales@sina.com From: Trend Hanger To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 19:27:05 +0800 Subject: We are exporting quality Hanger for cloth, pants Reply-To: hangersales@sina.com Organization: Trend Hanger Co. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010115112816.7186C37B699@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dear Sir or Madam, Happy New Year! Here we send all the best wish to you. Trend Hanger, as a professional hanger manufacturer in China specializes in producing and designing various kinds of non-slip coated and chrome-plated metal frame clothes hangers. The company has been in the business for almost 10 years now. With experienced staff and workers, we always provide our customers from all over the world with good service, excellent quality and competitively-priced products. Today, people care a lot about environmental protection, and more and more people would choose to use low-waste materials, impressive and well-designed products. We are proud to say ours are among them. For this reason, during the past several years our selling records are quite well, and now the business is growing even faster than before--simply because our series of products are proven to be reliable and worthwhile in our consumers' eyes. Furthermore, we always observe a strict quality control system all throughout our production process. Each product must be carefully examined and tested in each stage so as to ensure excellent quality and nice packing order for our customers. If you are interested in our products, please do not hesitate to contact us. We are anxious to establish long-term, equal and mutual beneficial business relationship with you. Best wishes, Trend Hanger Manufacturer Contact Person: Mr Steve, Phoenix Sales Manager Zhen An Industrial Zone, Foshan City, Guangdong Province, China 528000 Tel: (86 757) 3982666 Fax: (86 757) 2282667 Email: brianced@21cn.com http://www.bosunnet.com/trendhanger/index/contacts.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 15 10:31:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc.usc.edu (citusc.usc.edu [128.125.38.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 717CA37B402; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc.usc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24401; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:32:04 -0800 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:32:04 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: developers@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: My GPG key has expired Message-ID: <20010115103204.A24397@citusc.usc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Q68bSM7Ycu6FN28Q" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --Q68bSM7Ycu6FN28Q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hi all, Please fetch a new copy of my GPG key by fingering kris@FreeBSD.org - the one currently in the keyservers contains a key which expired a few days ago. I have re-signed this key with an updated expiry time. Unfortunately a bug in the MIT keyserver means that it is not recognising the updated key as having changed, so the new one isn't currently in there. I am encouraged that about a dozen people so far have noticed the signature expiry and told me about it. There are probably a lot more who noticed the expiry but didn't report it yet. I have been deliberately postponing this message as a way of testing how many people actually use PGP on my emails - these results seem to indicate that quite a few people in the community do in fact use PGP correctly for ordinary email. Thanks, Kris --Q68bSM7Ycu6FN28Q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6Y0IjWry0BWjoQKURAhyIAJ9BZYmvF2s/gzGH24h0lzklUqLScgCggGM4 yXhH2l+QLWsIILLP2Megkek= =Iu9G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Q68bSM7Ycu6FN28Q-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 15 11:26:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from danube.mindmaker.com (danube.mindmaker.com [209.66.98.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CBBD37B400; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:26:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from hera.int.mindmaker.com (hera.int.mindmaker.com [192.168.10.16]) by danube.mindmaker.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ECA4F83E; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:26:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mindmaker.com (host133.int.mindmaker.com [192.168.10.133]) by hera.int.mindmaker.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0FJT1Y18267; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:29:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bbeck@mindmaker.com) Message-ID: <3A634EF0.7CF95A7B@mindmaker.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:26:40 -0800 From: Bernhard Beck Organization: Mindmaker, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andreas Klemm Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: altavistas babelfish (was Re: Athlon Thunderbird 700 w. Asus K7M Motherboard vs. FreeBSD 4.2) References: <3A5F1F43.EE70CB3C@inode.at> <20010112161044.A97484@walton.maths.tcd.ie> <009e01c07cb7$132d9e30$3028680a@tgt.com> <3A5F3951.9932EED5@mindmaker.com> <00d101c07cbe$4f1f84b0$3028680a@tgt.com> <3A5F95AF.F8B120D4@mindmaker.com> <20010114130509.A40793@titan.klemm.gtn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andreas, oh yes. It's quite amusing, but good enough to get an idea about the content the article. Bernhard Andreas Klemm wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 12, 2001 at 03:39:27PM -0800, Bernhard Beck wrote: > > According to an article published in c't 14/2000, page 32 (online at > > http://www.heise.de/ct/00/14/032/default.shtml, use Altavista's > > Babelfish to translate), > > The translation using babelfish is funny ;-) > "Best" results you get if you translate the translation back using > babelfish again ;-) > > Andreas /// > > -- > Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD 4.2 SMP > Need a magic printfilter today ? -> http://www.apsfilter.org/ -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Bernhard Beck EMail bbeck@mindmaker.com Mindmaker, Inc. Tel 408-467-9219 224 Airport Parkway, Suite 550 Fax 408-467-9202 San Jose, CA 95110 This message is built from 100% recycled and happy electrons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 15 12:33:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fl_exchange.fl.dk (gw.fl.dk [193.88.152.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE26B37B69B; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by fl_exchange.fl.dk with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:30:34 +0100 Message-ID: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bryan_=D8sterg=E5rd?= To: 'Bernhard Beck' , Andreas Klemm Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: altavistas babelfish (was Re: Athlon Thunderbird 700 w. Asus K7M Motherboard vs. FreeBSD 4.2) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:30:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've always been partial to InterTran. They allow you to translate directly between english and english, making for some remarkable results. An example might be in order :) "Hello Sir. Would you like to translate this for me?" translates into "Depth Man. [Would] [you] relative be the cause of interpret special hence immateriality?" http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran Bryan -----Original Message----- From: Bernhard Beck [mailto:bbeck@mindmaker.com] Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 8:27 PM To: Andreas Klemm Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: altavistas babelfish (was Re: Athlon Thunderbird 700 w. Asus K7M Motherboard vs. FreeBSD 4.2) Andreas, oh yes. It's quite amusing, but good enough to get an idea about the content the article. Bernhard Andreas Klemm wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 12, 2001 at 03:39:27PM -0800, Bernhard Beck wrote: > > According to an article published in c't 14/2000, page 32 (online at > > http://www.heise.de/ct/00/14/032/default.shtml, use Altavista's > > Babelfish to translate), > > The translation using babelfish is funny ;-) > "Best" results you get if you translate the translation back using > babelfish again ;-) > > Andreas /// > > -- > Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD 4.2 SMP > Need a magic printfilter today ? -> http://www.apsfilter.org/ -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Bernhard Beck EMail bbeck@mindmaker.com Mindmaker, Inc. Tel 408-467-9219 224 Airport Parkway, Suite 550 Fax 408-467-9202 San Jose, CA 95110 This message is built from 100% recycled and happy electrons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 15 14:23:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from danube.mindmaker.com (danube.mindmaker.com [209.66.98.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B72C37B401; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:23:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from hera.int.mindmaker.com (hera.int.mindmaker.com [192.168.10.16]) by danube.mindmaker.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FCDF83E; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:23:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mindmaker.com (host133.int.mindmaker.com [192.168.10.133]) by hera.int.mindmaker.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0FMPRY19313; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:25:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bbeck@mindmaker.com) Message-ID: <3A63784C.A440F7A1@mindmaker.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:23:08 -0800 From: Bernhard Beck Organization: Mindmaker, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bryan =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D8sterg=E5rd?= Cc: Andreas Klemm , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: altavistas babelfish (was Re: Athlon Thunderbird 700 w. Asus K7M Motherboard vs. FreeBSD 4.2) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmmmm... I just tried it on the c't article. I don't understand a word of the English translation. Babelfish at least tries to make sense and generate correct grammar in the output. Bernhard Bryan Østergård wrote: > > I've always been partial to InterTran. > They allow you to translate directly between english and english, making for > some remarkable results. > > An example might be in order :) > "Hello Sir. Would you like to translate this for me?" translates into "Depth > Man. [Would] [you] relative be the cause of interpret special hence > immateriality?" > > http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran > > Bryan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bernhard Beck [mailto:bbeck@mindmaker.com] > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 8:27 PM > To: Andreas Klemm > Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: altavistas babelfish (was Re: Athlon Thunderbird 700 w. > Asus K7M Motherboard vs. FreeBSD 4.2) > > Andreas, > > oh yes. It's quite amusing, but good enough to get an idea about the > content the article. > > Bernhard > > Andreas Klemm wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jan 12, 2001 at 03:39:27PM -0800, Bernhard Beck wrote: > > > According to an article published in c't 14/2000, page 32 (online at > > > http://www.heise.de/ct/00/14/032/default.shtml, use Altavista's > > > Babelfish to translate), > > > > The translation using babelfish is funny ;-) > > "Best" results you get if you translate the translation back using > > babelfish again ;-) > > > > Andreas /// > > > > -- > > Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD 4.2 SMP > > Need a magic printfilter today ? -> http://www.apsfilter.org/ > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Bernhard Beck EMail bbeck@mindmaker.com > Mindmaker, Inc. Tel 408-467-9219 > 224 Airport Parkway, Suite 550 Fax 408-467-9202 > San Jose, CA 95110 > This message is built from 100% recycled and happy electrons > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Bernhard Beck EMail bbeck@mindmaker.com Mindmaker, Inc. Tel 408-467-9219 224 Airport Parkway, Suite 550 Fax 408-467-9202 San Jose, CA 95110 This message is built from 100% recycled and happy electrons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 15 17:48:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [195.224.76.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2780B37B69E for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:48:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from (hand.dotat.at) [127.0.0.1] (root) by chiark.greenend.org.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #2) id 14ILEe-0004ls-00 (Debian); Tue, 16 Jan 2001 01:48:37 +0000 Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.15 #3) id 14Hgya-0005Ps-00; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 06:49:16 +0000 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 06:49:15 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Duncan Barclay , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: US Invasion by a UK FreeBSDer Message-ID: <20010114064915.A78554@hand.dotat.at> References: <20010112215225.B97038@klapaucius.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010112215225.B97038@klapaucius.zer0.org> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter wrote: > >We could also have an impromptu BSD enthusiasts' meeting somewhere >in SOMA; perhaps the 21st Amendment (2nd and Brannan) would be a >good place to go for food, drinks, and a place to talk on one of >those weeknights. That sounds good. I work at 3rd & Mission, and owing to lack of mobility I haven't been to as many Bay Area BSD meets as I would like. (I don't drive and I only got my bike in SFO recently.) I'm very much in favour of social meets (i.e. in a pub) with the occasional talk, much like the London Unix Users Group and the UK FreeBSD Users Group. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at "Because all you of Earth are idiots!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 15 18: 4:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 591D037B6A4 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:04:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 59501 invoked by uid 1114); 16 Jan 2001 02:04:14 -0000 Date: 15 Jan 2001 18:04:14 -0800 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:04:14 -0800 (PST) From: Ceren Ercen To: Tony Finch Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: US Invasion by a UK FreeBSDer In-Reply-To: <20010114064915.A78554@hand.dotat.at> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Woo. I'm on 8th and Townsend, a few blocks down and to the left, but not many. Can't quite get away with doing the pub thing yet, give me a few months. ;) -Ceren FreeBSD's "Strange Attractor." On Sun, 14 Jan 2001, Tony Finch wrote: > Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > >We could also have an impromptu BSD enthusiasts' meeting somewhere > >in SOMA; perhaps the 21st Amendment (2nd and Brannan) would be a > >good place to go for food, drinks, and a place to talk on one of > >those weeknights. > > That sounds good. I work at 3rd & Mission, and owing to lack of > mobility I haven't been to as many Bay Area BSD meets as I would like. > (I don't drive and I only got my bike in SFO recently.) > > I'm very much in favour of social meets (i.e. in a pub) with the > occasional talk, much like the London Unix Users Group and the UK > FreeBSD Users Group. > > Tony. > -- > f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at > "Because all you of Earth are idiots!" > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 15 18:29:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB7B37B6AB for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:29:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 88718239A5E; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:29:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:29:24 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Tony Finch Cc: Duncan Barclay , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: US Invasion by a UK FreeBSDer Message-ID: <20010115182924.Z19875@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20010112215225.B97038@klapaucius.zer0.org> <20010114064915.A78554@hand.dotat.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010114064915.A78554@hand.dotat.at>; from dot@dotat.at on Sun, Jan 14, 2001 at 06:49:15AM +0000 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-01-14 06:49 +0000, Tony Finch wrote: > Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > >We could also have an impromptu BSD enthusiasts' meeting somewhere > >in SOMA; perhaps the 21st Amendment (2nd and Brannan) would be a > >good place to go for food, drinks, and a place to talk on one of > >those weeknights. > > That sounds good. I work at 3rd & Mission, and owing to lack of > mobility I haven't been to as many Bay Area BSD meets as I would like. > (I don't drive and I only got my bike in SFO recently.) > > I'm very much in favour of social meets (i.e. in a pub) with the > occasional talk, much like the London Unix Users Group and the UK > FreeBSD Users Group. Okay! Let's definitely meet up, then. How about Thursday? Anyone care? I just heard today that Chris Coleman, also of Daemon News (I am as well), is in town too, and would like to join us. This should be fun. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter It is no measure of health to be mailto:gsutter@zer0.org well adjusted to a profoundly http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ sick society. --Krishamurti hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 15 21:26:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A00D37B401 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:26:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1030"@[136.142.22.198]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01JYYEUB3DGY0089TX@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 00:26:22 EST Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:25:25 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Daemon images To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3A63CD35.75CDFD7F@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <01011522020701.62867@tim.elnsng1.mi.home.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moved to -chat; FWIW, I created a nice splashscreen with an earth photo from NASA, a big green marble with the word "FreeBSD" (created with an old version of 3D Studio), and a small daemon (I think I took it from one of the "button" images from Kirk's page. I sent out copies to some people last year; none of them replied. I also have an scanned image that someone sent me, plus minor editions using 3D Studio and Adobe Photodeluxe that I used for my T-shirt. (The Linux people here in Pittsburgh seem to like it, but I'm suspecting that, apart from some hidden hackers in CMU, I am the only FreeBSD user in town...). This stuff is available upon request before I take my laptop to repair ... damn VAIO keyboards :(. cheers, Pedro. Tim McMillen wrote: > > On Monday January 15, 2001 20:50, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 16-Jan-01 Greg Lehey wrote: > > > On Monday, 15 January 2001 at 16:00:55 -0800, John Baldwin wrote: > > >> On 15-Jan-01 Greg Lehey wrote: > > >>> On Monday, 15 January 2001 at 13:40:38 +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp > wrote: > > >>>> There is one point where I have to conceed defeat to Linux. > > >>>> > > >>>> That fat little penguin is everywhere. > > >>>> > > >>>> The main reason we practically don't see beastie at all is that > > >>>> there is no artwork to get hold of anywhere... > > >>>> > > >>>> Please, somebody, anybody: Can we have some beastie artwork in > > >>>> usable sizes for posters, T-shirts and such ??? > > >>> > > >>> And images which will fit on business cards, please. > > >>> > > >>> Greg > > >> > > >> The little beastie in the BSDi logo fits rather nicely on my > > >> business card... > > > > > > URL? > > > > Hmm, it seems some of the old pics have been taken down. Like all > > the Nomads pics and the SMP pics. :( > > Some at least are at: > http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/gif/bsd/nomads.html > > The bottom ones make a great desktop background! > > Tim > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 16 0: 5: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E571037B401 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 00:04:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmlb.org ([62.253.135.85]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010116080448.ZVLD6427.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@dmlb.org>; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 08:04:48 +0000 Received: from dmlb by dmlb.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 14IR6m-00078F-00; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 08:04:48 +0000 Content-Length: 1415 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010115182924.Z19875@klapaucius.zer0.org> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 08:04:48 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: Gregory Sutter Subject: Re: US Invasion by a UK FreeBSDer Cc: chat@freebsd.org, Tony Finch Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16-Jan-01 Gregory Sutter wrote: > On 2001-01-14 06:49 +0000, Tony Finch wrote: >> Gregory Sutter wrote: >> > >> >We could also have an impromptu BSD enthusiasts' meeting somewhere >> >in SOMA; perhaps the 21st Amendment (2nd and Brannan) would be a >> >good place to go for food, drinks, and a place to talk on one of >> >those weeknights. >> >> That sounds good. I work at 3rd & Mission, and owing to lack of >> mobility I haven't been to as many Bay Area BSD meets as I would like. >> (I don't drive and I only got my bike in SFO recently.) Hi Tony - would be good to see you again. We've met at a couple of UK meets. >> I'm very much in favour of social meets (i.e. in a pub) with the >> occasional talk, much like the London Unix Users Group and the UK >> FreeBSD Users Group. > > Okay! Let's definitely meet up, then. How about Thursday? Anyone > care? I can't guarantee that I'm around Thursday evening. I would prefer Tuesday or Wednesday. > I just heard today that Chris Coleman, also of Daemon News (I am > as well), is in town too, and would like to join us. This should > be fun. Sounds like it's hotting up. > Greg Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@dmlb.org | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. dmlb@freebsd.org| Steven King To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 16 11:56:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net (penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D305C37B401; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:56:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from hand.dotat.at (user-33qtnp5.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.223.37]) by penguin.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3-EL_1_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17488; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:56:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.15 #3) id 14ITE1-000AIe-00; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 10:20:25 +0000 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 10:20:25 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: One thing linux does better than FreeBSD... Message-ID: <20010116102025.R61248@hand.dotat.at> References: <35928.979562438@critter> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <35928.979562438@critter> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >There is one point where I have to conceed defeat to Linux. > >That fat little penguin is everywhere. At a lot of conferences I have been to recently those daemon horns have been more visible than penguins because they have been on most people's heads. This is thoroughly cool, plus it freaked out Douglas Adams. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at "You realize there's a government directive stating that there is no such thing as a flying saucer?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 16 15: 4:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from felch.internot (203-167-150-5.dialup.clear.net.nz [203.167.150.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF8AF37B400; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 15:03:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from clear.net.nz (felch [10.0.0.1]) by felch.internot (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0GN3bw66360; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:03:37 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from jamiew@clear.net.nz) Message-ID: <3A64D349.CE580B62@clear.net.nz> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:03:37 +1300 From: Jamie Walker Organization: A Touch of Evil X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Finch Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: One thing linux does better than FreeBSD... References: <35928.979562438@critter> <20010116102025.R61248@hand.dotat.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tony Finch wrote: > At a lot of conferences I have been to recently those daemon horns > have been more visible than penguins because they have been on most > people's heads. This is thoroughly cool, plus it freaked out Douglas > Adams. And it has to be said, the daemon is much cuter than the penguin :-) -- Email: jamiew@clear.net.nz ICQ: 5632563 or shout loudly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 16 17:14:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-56-41.knology.net [24.214.56.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5001537B6A4 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 17:14:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0H1ENE15531 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 19:14:23 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200101170114.f0H1ENE15531@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: One thing linux does better than FreeBSD... In-reply-to: Message from Jamie Walker of "Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:03:37 +1300." <3A64D349.CE580B62@clear.net.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 19:14:23 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Walker writes: > Tony Finch wrote: > > > At a lot of conferences I have been to recently those daemon horns > > have been more visible than penguins because they have been on most > > people's heads. This is thoroughly cool, plus it freaked out Douglas > > Adams. > > And it has to be said, the daemon is much cuter than the penguin :-) Its the green tennis shoes. If you are wearing horns the outfit isn't complete without green shoes. I painted an old pair of shoes green for Halloween and got more notice for the shoes than anything. One had to look closely to see I had painted them. If BSDi doesn't, they should issue green shoes to all their representatives at shows. "Oh, You're Red Hat Software? Big deal, we're Green Shoes." -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 16 21:20:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FB7337B400 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:20:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA00974; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 23:20:07 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 23:20:06 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: David Kelly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: One thing linux does better than FreeBSD... In-Reply-To: <200101170114.f0H1ENE15531@grumpy.dyndns.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, David Kelly wrote: :Jamie Walker writes: :> Tony Finch wrote: :> :> > At a lot of conferences I have been to recently those daemon horns :> > have been more visible than penguins because they have been on most :> > people's heads. This is thoroughly cool, plus it freaked out Douglas :> > Adams. :> :> And it has to be said, the daemon is much cuter than the penguin :-) : :Its the green tennis shoes. If you are wearing horns the outfit isn't :complete without green shoes. I painted an old pair of shoes green for :Halloween and got more notice for the shoes than anything. One had to :look closely to see I had painted them. Surely, they're Converse Chuck Taylor All Star (r) Hi-tops, in pine? http://www.converse.com/product/product.asp?cat=4&pfg=197&sku=m4431 I'll have to remember to wear a Beastie shirt if I ever buy a pair. David : :If BSDi doesn't, they should issue green shoes to all their :representatives at shows. "Oh, You're Red Hat Software? Big deal, we're :Green Shoes." : : :-- :David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net :===================================================================== :The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its :capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. : : : : :To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org :with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message : : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 17 8:37: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [208.178.101.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92AD737B6A0 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:36:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from well.com (howardjp@well.com [208.178.101.2]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA20316; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:36:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by well.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00925; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:36:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:36:44 -0800 (PST) From: James Howard To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@netbsd.org Subject: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was sitting here reading the histories of FreeBSD and NetBSD and trying to make sense of it all. Both split off from 386BSD in 1993. That much everyone seems to agree on. As near as I can tell, FreeBSD split in mid-1993 and NetBSD in earler 1993. But why didn't the FreeBSD group just become a 385-militant wing of the NetBSD development effort? Why was a different project needed? Thank you, J~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 17 9:32:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87E2837B400 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:32:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from zoraida.reyes.somos.net (zoraida.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.15]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA95952; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:28:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:36:29 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Jan 2001, James Howard wrote: > I was sitting here reading the histories of FreeBSD and NetBSD and trying > to make sense of it all. Both split off from 386BSD in 1993. That much > everyone seems to agree on. As near as I can tell, FreeBSD split in > mid-1993 and NetBSD in earler 1993. But why didn't the FreeBSD group just > become a 385-militant wing of the NetBSD development effort? Why was a > different project needed? Politics, different points of views, big egos...(one, some or all of those) The same goes for why OpenBSD came to be and why there are still 3 BSDs. What I never understood is why "officially" they don't coperate more with each other. I believe that unoficially some of the developers work/help/contribute to more than one of the BSDs. Does anyone know what ever happened to the push for an unified port system? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 17 9:53: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (unknown [194.128.198.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC0637B69E for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 09:52:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0HHqjW34942; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:52:45 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:52:44 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Francisco Reyes Cc: James Howard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Message-ID: <20010117175244.A34934@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from fran@reyes.somos.net on Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 12:36:29PM -0500 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 12:36:29PM -0500, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Wed, 17 Jan 2001, James Howard wrote: > > > I was sitting here reading the histories of FreeBSD and NetBSD and trying > > to make sense of it all. Both split off from 386BSD in 1993. That much > > everyone seems to agree on. As near as I can tell, FreeBSD split in > > mid-1993 and NetBSD in earler 1993. But why didn't the FreeBSD group just > > become a 385-militant wing of the NetBSD development effort? Why was a > > different project needed? > > Politics, different points of views, big egos...(one, some or all of > those) The same goes for why OpenBSD came to be and why there are still 3 > BSDs. > > What I never understood is why "officially" they don't coperate more with > each other. I believe that unoficially some of the developers > work/help/contribute to more than one of the BSDs. Lots of the developers work on more than one BSD. What would you like to see in order to make that 'official'? > Does anyone know what ever happened to the push for an unified port > system? http://www.openpackages.org/ N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 17 10:42:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6DE37B6AF for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 10:42:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04000; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 10:42:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200101171842.KAA04000@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 10:42:14 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: howardjp@well.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17 Jan, James Howard wrote: > I was sitting here reading the histories of FreeBSD and NetBSD and trying > to make sense of it all. Both split off from 386BSD in 1993. That much > everyone seems to agree on. As near as I can tell, FreeBSD split in > mid-1993 and NetBSD in earler 1993. But why didn't the FreeBSD group just > become a 385-militant wing of the NetBSD development effort? Why was a > different project needed? > Actually at that time NetBSD was the militant wing. 386BSD, and I believe I was the last hold out for it, biggest problem was the authors themselves. While the are extremely talented people the times were filled with much mistrust. Some facts: An offical patch-kit run by many of the members of FreeBSD was the pre-cursor to both FreeBSD and NetBSD, as well as OpenBSD. At one time everyone worked on 386BSD, but again, as you'll find on many history articles the authors were very un-responsive. When NetBSD broke off it was considered militant. The was partly because Chris Demitrious did not get along with people. Other people were upset becuase their patches (submissions to the patchkit effort) were not accept. There was much ill feelings. Chris is now a different person, I think he learned things. Those other peoples are now the core team at NetBSD. Theo de Raadt was the most militant, hence the hard-line at OpenBSD. NetBSD people, as they tell it, just want Theo to not yell at people. He considered it censorship (see recent DDJ article). Many other fact worked their way in. Aside from the stuff I've mentioned, there is still lots of ill feelings towards the authors of 386BSD. Another factor is BSDi. Many individual (most not now at BSDi) actually started rumors and incited mis-trust. AT&T also added pressure at the time by claiming Unix was a National (treasure??) and therefore should be consider un-exportable. This in a similar way as we have controls over munitions. This notion was defeated in the courts, but by an out-of-court settlement. Part of the settlement did not allow anyone to talk about it. AT&T sold Unix to Novell for $1 Billion dollars in the middle of this and in reallity it was Novell that settled. BTW, this $1B almost bankrupted(sp?) Novell. There is more to this story, but let's wait for the denials to come in first. :-) Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 17 11:41:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [208.178.101.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CE3B37B6C3 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:41:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from well.com (howardjp@well.com [208.178.101.2]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA16172; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:40:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by well.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA17615; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:40:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:40:57 -0800 (PST) From: James Howard To: opentrax@email.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: <200101171842.KAA04000@spammie.svbug.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 opentrax@email.com wrote: > Many other fact worked their way in. Aside from the stuff I've > mentioned, there is still lots of ill feelings towards the authors > of 386BSD. Another factor is BSDi. Many individual (most not now > at BSDi) actually started rumors and incited mis-trust. (Brief background, I am bored. I noticed a trend that everytime someone mentions BSD on Slashdot, someone asks what the differences are between the BSDs, aside from hype. I am trying to resolve that question.) So at this point, I am trying to figure out why NetBSD and FreeBSD didn't pool resource early. I know why OpenBSD exists so that is not a question (though great quotes are appreciated:). Why did Jolitz pull support from 386BSD? And what was BSDi doing at the time? Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 17 11:54:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.fundy.net (smtp.fundy.net [24.231.0.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 689B537B6D6 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:54:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by smtp.fundy.net via sendmail with stdio id for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:52:51 -0400 (AST) (Smail-3.2.0.102 1998-Aug-2 #5 built 2000-Nov-22) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:52:51 -0400 From: David Maxwell To: James Howard Cc: opentrax@email.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Message-ID: <20010117155250.A19627@fundy.ca> Mail-Followup-To: James Howard , opentrax@email.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG References: <200101171842.KAA04000@spammie.svbug.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from James Howard on Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 11:40:57AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 11:40:57AM -0800, James Howard wrote: > (Brief background, I am bored. I noticed a trend that everytime someone > mentions BSD on Slashdot, someone asks what the differences are between > the BSDs, aside from hype. I am trying to resolve that question.) > > So at this point, I am trying to figure out why NetBSD and FreeBSD didn't > pool resource early. I wasn't involved - here's my understanding from the discussions I've seen. Well, for the Kernel, that woudn't have been possible - FreeBSD didn't want to be slowed down by doing all that 'portability' stuff, and NetBSD wasn't willing to be Intel only. In userland, there probably could have been (and still could be?) more co-development and sharing. > Why did Jolitz pull support from 386BSD? And what was BSDi doing at the > time? It was a project to do the port, it was never something he had intended to maintain - he didn't 'pull' support, he just refused to get suckered into ongoing work he didn't want to do. BSDi was fighting the USL lawsuit I believe. -- David Maxwell, david@vex.net|david@maxwell.net --> Mastery of UNIX, like mastery of language, offers real freedom. The price of freedom is always dear, but there's no substitute. Personally, I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, pop-up-happy dungeon like NT. - Thomas Scoville To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 17 12:29:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 131A237B69F for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:29:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1402"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01JZ0ONZ9X3E008X4S@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:29:09 EST Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:40:36 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3A660344.38176D12@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I couldn't resist adding some FUD to all this :). James Howard wrote: > ... > > So at this point, I am trying to figure out why NetBSD and FreeBSD didn't > pool resource early. I know why OpenBSD exists so that is not a question > (though great quotes are appreciated:). > Because we were trying to implement the "multipath optimization method" (AKA MOM). This method, coldly thought up by the early BSD gurus after consultations with the Usenet oracle, gave us the option to explore different optimization and CI paths without the bothersome requirement of sharing the same tree. The methods of crosspolination and evolution by friendly competition were developed simultaneously... > Why did Jolitz pull support from 386BSD? And what was BSDi doing at the > time? > There are three possible explanations; 1) The guy was a genius, he surely had more important things to do (for humanity not just for hackers !). 2) He was busy reading a joke list from some kid in Finland building a Toy OS. 3) There's the legend that there are some secret tapes with his last developments waiting to be released until the world were "ready". BSDi was debugging Jolitz' code and pondering how to take over the world...They sued AT&T first you know... they were also setting out the last details of the MOM theory. that's what I've concluded after years of carefully reading the archives and interpreting ... Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 17 13: 6: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6295837B6CB; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:05:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA96480; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 16:02:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200101172102.QAA96480@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Nik Clayton" Cc: "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" , "James Howard" , "netbsd-advocacy@netbsd.org" Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:36:06 -0500 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: <20010117175244.A34934@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:52:44 +0000, Nik Clayton wrote: >> What I never understood is why "officially" they don't coperate more with >> each other. I believe that unoficially some of the developers >> work/help/contribute to more than one of the BSDs. > >Lots of the developers work on more than one BSD. What would you like >to see in order to make that 'official'? A list, even if minimal, of things which the "architects" (i.e. core on FreeBSD, don't know it's equivalent on NetBSD) agreed to at least consider the other OS. I am not saying they should consult each other for everything, but they could at least keep in other in mind that would be great. >> Does anyone know what ever happened to the push for an unified port >> system? > > http://www.openpackages.org/ That is a very good start on "bringing the BSDs together". francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 17 13:12:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C527037B6CC for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:11:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9252923A67E; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:11:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:11:58 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Duncan Barclay Cc: chat@freebsd.org, Tony Finch Subject: Re: US Invasion by a UK FreeBSDer Message-ID: <20010117131158.G97038@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20010115182924.Z19875@klapaucius.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from dmlb@dmlb.org on Tue, Jan 16, 2001 at 08:04:48AM -0000 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-01-16 08:04 -0000, Duncan Barclay wrote: > On 16-Jan-01 Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On 2001-01-14 06:49 +0000, Tony Finch wrote: > >> Gregory Sutter wrote: > >> > > >> >We could also have an impromptu BSD enthusiasts' meeting somewhere > >> >in SOMA; perhaps the 21st Amendment (2nd and Brannan) would be a > >> >good place to go for food, drinks, and a place to talk on one of > >> >those weeknights. > >> > >> That sounds good. I work at 3rd & Mission, and owing to lack of > >> mobility I haven't been to as many Bay Area BSD meets as I would like. > >> (I don't drive and I only got my bike in SFO recently.) > >> > >> I'm very much in favour of social meets (i.e. in a pub) with the > >> occasional talk, much like the London Unix Users Group and the UK > >> FreeBSD Users Group. > > > > Okay! Let's definitely meet up, then. How about Thursday? Anyone > > care? > > I can't guarantee that I'm around Thursday evening. I would prefer > Tuesday or Wednesday. Whatever is good for you. > > I just heard today that Chris Coleman, also of Daemon News (I am > > as well), is in town too, and would like to join us. This should > > be fun. Actually, I was wrong. Chris is in town this week, not in Feb. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "I think not," said Descartes... mailto:gsutter@zer0.org and promptly disappeared. http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 17 15:40:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51D5837B400 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:39:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05269; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:39:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200101172339.PAA05269@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:39:34 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: howardjp@well.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17 Jan, James Howard wrote: > On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 opentrax@email.com wrote: > >> Many other fact worked their way in. Aside from the stuff I've >> mentioned, there is still lots of ill feelings towards the authors >> of 386BSD. Another factor is BSDi. Many individual (most not now >> at BSDi) actually started rumors and incited mis-trust. > > (Brief background, I am bored. I noticed a trend that everytime someone > mentions BSD on Slashdot, someone asks what the differences are between > the BSDs, aside from hype. I am trying to resolve that question.) > Okay. > So at this point, I am trying to figure out why NetBSD and FreeBSD didn't > pool resource early. I know why OpenBSD exists so that is not a question > (though great quotes are appreciated:). > Again, the start was 386BSD, then the "Unoffical Patch Kit". The UPK was written by Terry Lambert, then run by Dave Burgess and later Rodney Grimes. Jordan Hubbart was also a main person into. Jordan was one of the founders of FreeBSD. NetBSD pulled out early from the 386BSD effort. Their direction was based on BSD tradition; make run on everything. Again, they left mostly because of tensions between the authors of 386BSD and the UPK. That is, people were making fixes to 386BSD, but the only way to incorporate them for more that 1 1/2 year was the UPK. The UPK had many problems it was a disaster (Sorry Terry). The UPK was never intended to run for more than a few months, but one (1) year later it was the only to get things to work. > Why did Jolitz pull support from 386BSD? And what was BSDi doing at the > time? > Originally Bill Jolitz worked and had shares in BSDi (he may still have claims) BSDi was started with the code that Bill had returned to UCB. However, problems started when Rob Kolstad (then CEO) and others started activites of a gray nature (Sorry can't follow up on this). Bill while a great technologist had words with BSDi, pulled out of BSDi, mysteriously had his UCB accounts canceled and eventually got some help from UCSF. Some time later my partner John Sokol ran into Bill Jolitz. As it turns out a class mate of Bill's told John. John had been working on an "un-encumbered" version of Unix with several people. Because of the mess, John agreed to help Bill, but Bill place several restrictions on the help. One restriction was not to release the code until Bill felt it was ready. Unfortuneally, here is where the story turns. Chris Demetrious, a founder of NetBSD, release the code prematurely. This upset many people, including BSDi, AT&T and UCB. But the cat was out of the bag and we had to move. The "unoffical" release was further furstrated when corrupt copies mysteriously made it on to Chris's version, and versions stored at UCB. The incident was quickly followed up with an offical 0.0 release. This release while workable had a very poorly written floppy driver that furstrated the release. The release version was patch in 0.1 with version that were in MS-DOS file format (128k chunks I think) that allowed people to at last be able to get it running. Note: the previous version was an all or nothing release. That is, once you started from the first diskette and completed with the 20th diskette, if anything went wrong you had to start over. With the 0.1 release, at least people could work and move forward, but many drivers and the VM had problems - hence the UPK. As time went on and AT&T filed suite against BSDi, and UCB against AT&T. The situation got ugly. John Sokol got a visit from the Stanford University President. Bill Jolitz had a cross burned on his lawn. Dave Burgess, then in the US ARMY, got a visit from the Military Police. Needless to say, there was alot of tension at the time. As you might imagine retreat was a good option for all. Bill and Lynn Jolitz found refuge in completing their book, The Basic Kernel: Source Code Secrets. They also worked on finishing the offical 1.0 version. However, Bill in his entusasium wanted to make it the best he could and I'm told he swapped out the Virtual Memory system twice. As time went on, but well before 1.0, a Newsgroup formed and Chris Demetrious became the Moderator. The group was form as a support mechanisum(sp?) for Bill. However, individuals (no longer at BSDi) continously sent messages to cause insurrection and undermined trust in the community. Eventually, NetBSD was formed because of the reasons I stated earlier. FreeBSD form later but many of the original FreeBSD people were upset at the NetBSD people becuase they still wanted to support Bill. Eventually I was the last person standing in support of Bill and the tension and flames wars (at that time) centered around anything I said or did. Most of the bad blood was (and still is) because of how code contribtions are handled. The result as you can see is both groups have Open CVS trees, unheard of before then, and Open PRs (Problem Reports). In addition, no one person can stop a piece of code and no one person has a final say so. It is well understood, if you don't like the situation, write your own. This stances comes mostly from Bill Jolitz because that was his final words when 1.0 was finally released. In a sense, alot of the bad blood is Bill's fault, but other people (including myself) must share the blame. I could have done more at the time to mend fences, but I knew that the community could not move forward without a commone enemy. The eventually found one. It was Bill and Lynn Jolitz, the original authors of 386BSD. So, today myself and other people you would not expect are trying to get the community back together. I can mention Rick Moen of the Cabal, and Ernest Prabhakar Appple's Open Source Project Manager. Together they and other people I should mention are working hard to get the groups back together, but as I've said, there is too much bad blood out there. Best Regards, Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 17 22:26:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F220537B401 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 22:26:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA23814; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 23:23:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA_sayEU; Wed Jan 17 23:23:36 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA29452; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 23:26:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101180626.XAA29452@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: opentrax@email.com Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 06:26:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: howardjp@well.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200101172339.PAA05269@spammie.svbug.com> from "opentrax@email.com" at Jan 17, 2001 03:39:34 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Minor nits: > > So at this point, I am trying to figure out why NetBSD and FreeBSD didn't > > pool resource early. I know why OpenBSD exists so that is not a question > > (though great quotes are appreciated:). > > Again, the start was 386BSD, then the "Unoffical Patch Kit". > The UPK was written by Terry Lambert, then run by Dave Burgess > and later Rodney Grimes. Jordan Hubbart was also a main person into. > Jordan was one of the founders of FreeBSD. Rodney Grimes, then Nate Williams and Jordan Hubbard. Dave Burgess took over the "Unofficial FAQ" from me before I handed off the patchkit. As a rule of thumb, unless I'm passionate about the subject (and so can't trust it to someone else), I have this tendency to get things that I think are neat or need to work to the point where they work, and then find someone to hand them to so I can go on to the next thing on my "important things that won't otherwise get done" list. > NetBSD pulled out early from the 386BSD effort. Their direction > was based on BSD tradition; make run on everything. Again, they > left mostly because of tensions between the authors of 386BSD > and the UPK. That is, people were making fixes to 386BSD, but > the only way to incorporate them for more that 1 1/2 year was > the UPK. > > The UPK had many problems it was a disaster (Sorry Terry). > The UPK was never intended to run for more than a few months, > but one (1) year later it was the only to get things to work. It was a very basic version control system, which relied on a human being, rather than software, to ensure that order of operation was maintained. Contrary to your repeated opinion of my intent in writing the scripts which created, managed, and installed the patches, the software itself was intended to last a very long time. It is still in use today at at least 6 commercial organizations, none of which, incidently, I ever worked for: the code was adopted on its merits. The patchkit had several attributes: o It ensured patch application would not fail due to conflicting authors changes to the same file. o It was the only realistic method of integrating lots of Usenet-posted patches, without retarding progress by setting up a control hierarchy, like the one in effect in all longer-lived open source projects today. NB: 386BSD lived a very long time -- from the establishment of the first patchkit release, through to the establishment of the FreeBSD 0.1 (quickly, 1.0) source tree, all public work on 386BSD was done in the context of Usenet postings and/or patchkit patches -- quite fine with the patchkit. o It worked around the "damage" of the actual source code control system being unavailable to all but a few people. NB: Linux _still_ uses a limited availability ("keys to the kingdom") model; this works for them because Linux, being only a kernel, is orders of magnitude less code than any BSD system. For all its faults, Linus is sincerely wrong about his arguments against source control -- though there are valid ones, as the next point shows, Linus never, to my knowledge, actually points to them, since they are points against having a "Linus" figure, as well. o It required that patch conflict domains be well-known on a per file basis, so that application of patches could be serialized based on the topology of their affect. NB: CVS has this attribute; use of CVS, like use of the patchkit, constrains BSD growth in many ways, including acting as a brake on not only the rate of growth, but the rate of growth of the rate of growth. If I had been aware of "mutual security" games at the time I created it, I would have picked a different approach, which did not have a centralized control constraint as an emergent property, and there would probably not be a "core team" structure today, nor would having "commit priviledges" be such a big deal (or stumbling block, depending on your point of view). o Developement under its auspices significantly outstripped the ability of Bill Jolitz to keep up with the work, as anything other than an editor, a role for which he was unprepared. NB: This is a good thing: all works should outlive their authors utility; we have an Internet today, despite the regrettable deaths of John Postel and Richard Stevens, precisely because they built things to last, instead of for their own aggrandization. This process is called "monument building", and engineers who do other than likewise are diddling themselves. o It had no sense of history: there was no modification history, other than ordering, and there was no real accreditation. NB: This is good; it keeps away people who are in it for ego. Unfortunately, it also attracts those same people, since it provided a chokepoint that was insufficiently decentralized to survive an egomaniac. Like Linux, FreeBSD has been very lucky, but not as lucky as it could have been, lacking such a chokepoint in the incarnations of its organization. It's also bad, if you want to protect public projects from intentional disruption, by Luddites or power-seekers who look to wield power for its own sake. Again, luck has played a role here, since the organizational incarnations we've seen haven't required perfect altruism in order to continue to at least function. o It was still to slow, for some people. NB: Another bad point; I mostly blame this on the implicit serialization of operations, which means CVS has the same problem: FreeBSD, under CVS, has occasionally been too slow for people, including myself on several occasions. Larry McVoy's source code control system, and Perforce's system, both overcome this problem, by offering the capability for multiple lines of developement (often abbreviated on Larry's mailing lists as "LODs"). Unfortunately, both systems attach unacceptable economic restrictions on the use of their software for overcoming this problem in the BSDs, since they add cost to commercial use, but don't incent the projects themselves, which have already adjusted to the concept, and are unlikely to change without incentive (no BSD project, so far as I have been able to tell, seems to see increased rate of growth or rate of increase in rate of growth as incentive; mostly they view both as a threat. Of course, that's what they've been trained to do, by their initial choice of tools). So the patchkit was not a failure, it was an experiment, and it had perhaps too much success, particularly as a braking system where people wanted a "downhill racer", and a multiplier of effort, where other people wanted an "atomic pile" instead of a "nuke". -- As an aside: Actually, I view the whole thing as a useful applied sociology experiment, from which much useful information derived. If I had the academic credentials as a social scientist to be seriously published in the field, or wasn't busy with other things to the point of being unable to waste time acquiring them, I'd write several papers on the topic. As it is, I've shared the models and information with others (including the Sante Fe Institute and the Foresight Institute) who had an interest and appeared to understand them, so I'm not a single chokepoint myself. I've since used the information gained to successfully identify the minimum amount of effort required to trigger four still-viable Open Source software projects, and some of the people whom I shared information with have triggered no less than six others. -- The commentary by "Jesse M" in response to these questions failed to answer them... > > Why did Jolitz pull support from 386BSD? Bill Jolitz supported Lynne Jolitz after a Usenet tirade that, while understandable, under the circumstances of the time, a lot of people took personally. One of the things he did as part of this support of his wife was to revoke the right of the patchkit people to use the "386BSD" name for a "386BSD 0.5 interim release". Rather than waste the work, which was quite substantial, they followed the NetBSD example and committed the code to a CVS tree, and released FreeBSD instead. In retrospect, my public advice to Bill Jolitz to trademark the name "386BSD", which everyone assumed he had done, when he was revoking rights to use the name, was probably a bad move. > > And what was BSDi doing at the time? BSDI was pursuing a commercial version of BSD, as well as fending off a lawsuit brought on by their waking up the USL lawyers with their "1-800-ITS-UNIX" phone number, which the USL lawyers hated, since lawyers don't understand the concept of namespaces (see ".COM" for other examples of the trademark namespace being applied to orthogonal namespaces). Once awake, the USL lawyers refused to go back to sleep, even after the phone number "problem" was fixed, since the law is used as a business weapon, as well as making trademarks into a defensive obligation. I can't speak to the agendas involved; I have no idea why UCB did not rip USL a new one, since MIT offered to bankroll them, including putting their patent portfolio behind the effort (anyone with a patent portfolio large enough can find infringement by anyone with a technology dependent business; patents were being granted despite obviousness even back then, and the problem has only gotten worse since then, with the patenting of algorithms as if they were processes). [ ... 386BSD ... ] > With the 0.1 release, at least people could work and move > forward, but many drivers and the VM had problems - hence > the UPK. Actually, the patchkit solved a _lot_ of problems people had with the 386BSD 0.1 distribution. Only a few of these were related to something other than the distribution structure, which was the biggest problem most people had with the 0.1 release Yeah, I know the VM system was a problem: I did the first public patch for it with my first FAQ release (it was in the top three original reasons for the FAQ). But most people had a problem with having to wait for the promised "0.2 release", which was supposed to incorporate most of the Usenet patches, but which never materialized. The promises of "soon now" and the faith in Bill frimly taking the steering wheel of the bus (eventually) was the reason I labelled both the FAQ and the patchkit as "unofficial": I did so with the full expectation that "official" replacements would be forthcoming. NB: Actually, I'm proud of doing that: if it had been successful, we'd probably have an organization that would be much more helpful to people with problems, and much less likely to say things like "you want it fixed, where's the code, you whiney moron?". I'm not that happy with the clique-ish nature of the community that's developed, where everyone thinks it's the order of the universe that "newbies must pay their dues". The BSD community has grown to resemble a college fraternity, with its own set of "hazing" rules, which, thankfully, Linux and other Open Source software projects seem to have sucessfully avoided. [ ... ] > As time went on, but well before 1.0, a Newsgroup formed > and Chris Demetrious became the Moderator. The group > was form as a support mechanisum(sp?) for Bill. The newsgroup was a side-note, and brought on mostly by a hypersensitive attitude of legal political correctness, which haunts its name to this day. The comp.unix.bsd group was perfectly adequate to the job, and was used for it for quite a long time. > However, individuals (no longer at BSDi) continously > sent messages to cause insurrection and undermined > trust in the community. Eventually, NetBSD was formed > because of the reasons I stated earlier. NetBSD people were merely less patient with Bill's 0.2 release promises, and went off on their own much earlier. > FreeBSD form later but many of the original FreeBSD > people were upset at the NetBSD people becuase > they still wanted to support Bill. FreeBSD and NetBSD pretty much evolved independently, at nearby times. FreeBSD people were not upset at the NetBSD people, per se; they merely didn't "rally to the flag", once a new banner was declared. Much of that had to do with the work being carried out by a small group, in nominal seclusion, to get out from under what appeared to be the yoke of promises which would never materialize, in their opinions. In fact, they turned out to be right, but through no fault of their own. There was only a minimal amount of friction, mostly caused by people who didn't understand the necessity of the serialization of the production of patchkit patches; this went away for everyone but a few "stamp collector" personalities (people who hold unreasonably strong grudges forever) when the FreeBSD/386BSD 0.5 split occurred, which was very shortly after the original (0.8) NetBSD release. > In a sense, alot of the bad blood is Bill's fault, but > other people (including myself) must share the blame. > I could have done more at the time to mend fences, but > I knew that the community could not move forward > without a commone enemy. The eventually found one. > It was Bill and Lynn Jolitz, the original authors > of 386BSD. I disagree. The "bad blood", what there is of it, is the result of a fringe of volatile personalities, which have mostly been purged from the natural chokepoints of the various BSD-derived projects. I really don't buy the "common enemy" theory for most events in the Open Source community; the only place that really applies is in a project "split", and that generally only happens as a result of very strong ideological reasons. One of the reasons I constantly caution against splits, even though I clash as much as anyone, on ideological grounds, is that the new project will _inevitably_ attract the most volatile elements to itself; that's what has historically happened in _any_ social schism, throughout human history. You don't have to run an experiment too many times before you can predict the outcome which will result from running it yet again. Without strong ideological reasons, coupled with the power in the system being embedded in a much smaller group of people with a conflicting ideology, you'll always end up with a rabble. This is why the U.S. electoral system, as strange as it looks, has been so successful, and why the relatively recent "core team" reforms in FreeBSD have had the effect of making it even more unlikely that there will be a true "FreeBSD schism" in the near future. > So, today myself and other people you would not expect > are trying to get the community back together. > I can mention Rick Moen of the Cabal, and Ernest > Prabhakar Appple's Open Source Project Manager. > Together they and other people I should mention are > working hard to get the groups back together, but > as I've said, there is too much bad blood out there. Again, I must disagree. The U.S., Australia, and the U.K. are the best of friends these days, but they hardly want to become a single country. You don't need to point at putative "bad blood" to explain why there are three seperate and distinct groups. I think the reason the "openports" thing hasn't really gotten anywhere yet in displacing the ports trees of the various projects, is that there is not demonstrable benefit for the majority of the people doing the actualy work: the people with the power to "officially" adopt it in place of the existing systems currently in use by the various projects. Like source code control systems, the people involved have been "trained", by weeding out all of the people who clash with the system, through self selection. Just providing a replacement system is not sufficient incentive to cause a change-over: the existing system is metastable, and won't "tunnel" of its own accord, even though it would mean moving to a state of _net_ lower energy, since they are measuring their energy only in their own realm, and the net value in all BSD realms is irrelevent to them. Continuing with this example (once all subelements have been integrated, there's really no difference between the projects, and one will "fade away", should we ever get to that point), you would need either buy-in from the principals in each of the groups, or you would need to provide an _additional and compelling benefit_ to overcome social inertia. I think it's that simple: no "bad blood" need apply, as an explanation. NB: If you're interested, the status quo here is called a "Richardson Non-Linear Mutual Security Game"; an analytical mechanics buff would recognize it as a "damped driven harmonic oscillator", where the damping force exceeds the driving force. If you understood that, then it's also probably obvious to you now how you could preterb two of the systems sufficiently to force your new paradigm to be adopted naturally; it's also probable that you'll recognize it involves at least some work on your part. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 17 22:47:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3516637B401 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 22:47:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA14325; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 19:47:04 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200101180647.TAA14325@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary / FreshPorts To: Terry Lambert Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 19:47:03 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: howardjp@well.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <200101180626.XAA29452@usr08.primenet.com> References: <200101172339.PAA05269@spammie.svbug.com> from "opentrax@email.com" at Jan 17, 2001 03:39:34 PM X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18 Jan 2001, at 6:26, Terry Lambert wrote: > NB: Actually, I'm proud of doing that: if it had been > successful, we'd probably have an organization that > would be much more helpful to people with problems, > and much less likely to say things like "you want it > fixed, where's the code, you whiney moron?". Yes, that's a rather unfortunate side of FreeBSD which I'd rather see the back of. > I'm > not that happy with the clique-ish nature of the > community that's developed, where everyone thinks > it's the order of the universe that "newbies must > pay their dues". I've not yet considered it clique-ish, but now that you mention it, I've had more than one encounter with a committer who felt it was beneath them to deal with an issue I brought up. In brief, they said they had better things to do. I've always been a advocate of helping when and where you can. The level at which one can help changes as experience is gained. It's a moving threshold. > The BSD community has grown to > resemble a college fraternity, with its own set of > "hazing" rules, which, thankfully, Linux and other > Open Source software projects seem to have sucessfully > avoided. Could you please elaborate on the "hazing" rules? > I think the reason the "openports" thing hasn't really > gotten anywhere yet in displacing the ports trees of the > various projects, is that there is not demonstrable benefit > for the majority of the people doing the actualy work: Do you mean openpackages.org? That project is still fairly new. We're not even at the stage of having a ports tree ready for public consumption. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ FreshPorts - http://freshports.org/ NZ Broadband - http://unixathome.org/broadband/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 17 23:28:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A5D37B401 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 23:28:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01758; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:23:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAf2ayAd; Thu Jan 18 00:23:18 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA00660; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:28:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101180728.AAA00660@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: opentrax@email.com Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 07:28:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: howardjp@well.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200101171842.KAA04000@spammie.svbug.com> from "opentrax@email.com" at Jan 17, 2001 10:42:14 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org More corrections... > When NetBSD broke off it was considered militant. The was partly > because Chris Demitrious did not get along with people. Other people > were upset becuase their patches (submissions to the patchkit effort) > were not accept. There was much ill feelings. Chris is now a different > person, I think he learned things. Those other peoples are now > the core team at NetBSD. There were some patches released in patchkit format (reverse engineered) that ignored the need to serialize operations. I think that after the people who did this had "Makefile"s explained to them, and were offered the real patchkit tools, the conflict problems went away. NetBSD was (per my other posting) mostly people who were tired of waiting, and thought progress was too slow, and weren't willing to leave it in what they percieved as "too slow" hands. Let's be honest: it's still "too slow" for some of us... no matter what camp we are currently in. > AT&T also added pressure at the time by claiming Unix was a > National (treasure??) and therefore should be consider un-exportable. AT&T (USL) tried to claim trade secret status for UNIX; BSD Net/2 contained the components they were complaining about, but following disclosure, they had no trade secret status. UCB was not accountable anyway, since the code derived from code licensed without non-disclosure clauses, under the old Western Electric license. UCB EECS in fact did not renew their UNIX license when the Western Electric license changed to prohibit disclosure, so the cat was already out of the bag, even if one ignores the Lions book, published by the University of New South Wales, under the same Western Electric license, lacking a non-disclosure requirement. AT&T was, in fact, under a consent decree based on an antitrust action under the Sherman Antitrust act, preceeding the breakup (the "Judge Green Decision"), prohibited from making money on software, or of obtaining any intellectual property protection for UNIX, whatsoever. Technically, then, the "harm", even if provably real, wasn't monetarily recoverable; a circuit court judge basically said that, when he admonished USL about their attempt at a restraining order. The part that got the press, though was when he called their claims frivolous on trade secret grounds. I never heard the export issue, but I would think that if it were an issue, it would be a National Security issue, not an issue of national propriety, since UNIX was used in most of the digital telephone switches manufactured, particularly those from Northern Telecom and AT&T. These switches were sold outside the US at the time, anyway. Mostly, USL continued the suit out of a risk-reward calculation (IMO), and it escalated to places other than BSDI because of early briefs filing for summary dismissal on the basis of "failure to exercise due dilligence" (basically, some people who I believe are long gone from BSDI "hid behind" UCB when the bully came out to beat them up [an overreaction to the "yo mama" of the "1-800-ITS-UNIX" phone number]) > AT&T sold Unix to Novell for $1 Billion dollars in the middle > of this and in reallity it was Novell that settled. BTW, this > $1B almost bankrupted(sp?) Novell. Novell bought USL for $80M, which is only 8% of the figure you quote. This is the same price they charged Sun to get out of royalty payments, and the later sale of USL to SCO was nothing but gravy for them: very good ROI, in fact. Novell settled because it was a P.R. nightmare, and many of the "Novell USG - UNIX Systems Group" and now dissociated Bell Labs people, including Dennis Ritchie, threatened to testify or file Amicus Curie briefs on behalf of UCB, totally undermining USL's legal case. The $1B purchase made at around the same time was the purchase of Word Perfect. Along with AppWare (another company started with finding from the Noorda Family Trust, and later purchased by Novell), which provided Novell with "COM" and "DCOM"-like technology, any the purchase of spreadsheet software from Borland, this was Novell's entry into competition with Microsoft. The AppWare purchase triggered the others, since Novell found out that third party companies would not voluntarily commoditize their software into invisible non-logo'ed component-ware, unless you bought them and forced them to do it (or you were able to wield monopolistic power in the marketplace to force them to do it, as Microsoft later did with COM). The reason the purchase was such a bone-head move was that it was the first time that a company had used the well-known Novell company valuation benchmark (PPE - Profit Per Employee) to inflate their apparent value to astronomical heights. In order to do this, Word Perfect cancelled free support, cancelled all forward looking products, all pen-based products, all marginal products (like post 4.2 for UNIX and VMS), etc., and then let those employees go. Cutting your workforce nearly in half at the end of a corporate fiscal year does wonders for PPE (if you can't change the numerator, change the denominator). Don't think that Novell didn't learn from this: big does not necessarily equal stupid. Novell was (and still is) a pretty shrewd company; any company that sticks around for any real length of time, and outlives the initial cult-of-personality that started it by a management generation plus one, is probably in it for the long haul. It's definitely on my "hold" list, and I'm likely to upgrade it, if the price continues to stay low with the current P/E ratio for much longer (and I can get it for the price of a fractional long term capital gains cash-out of some other investments ;-))... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 0:12:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A731A37B402 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:12:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA20930; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 01:12:11 -0700 Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdvHxRya; Thu Jan 18 01:12:06 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA01304; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 01:12:09 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101180812.BAA01304@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: dan@langille.org Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:11:58 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), howardjp@well.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200101180647.TAA14325@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> from "Dan Langille" at Jan 18, 2001 07:47:03 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The BSD community has grown to > > resemble a college fraternity, with its own set of > > "hazing" rules, which, thankfully, Linux and other > > Open Source software projects seem to have sucessfully > > avoided. > > Could you please elaborate on the "hazing" rules? It's where you take the new guys and make them eat worms until you feel they've eaten enough worms that they can be full members of the club. You can tell you are a full member of the club when you are allowed take the new guys and make them eat worms until you feel they've eaten enough worms that they can be full members of the club. Most military organizations have the same type of initation rites, except the Rangers, where, when they take you and make you eat worms, it's called "training", and you know what you are getting into before you sign up for it. Basically, it means "technically meaningless behaviour that does nothing to advance the organization, which you are nonetheless expected to engage in as part of the price of participation, above and beyond the value of the effort which you are willing to donate to the cause". > > I think the reason the "openports" thing hasn't really > > gotten anywhere yet in displacing the ports trees of the > > various projects, is that there is not demonstrable benefit > > for the majority of the people doing the actualy work: > > Do you mean openpackages.org? That project is still fairly > new. Yeah, "openpackages", thanks. > We're not even at the stage of having a ports tree ready > for public consumption. That was rather my point. When you get to where you have a ports tree ready for public consumption, how are you going to get the projects to switch over to the new system? A lot of people have an investment in continuing to do things the way they have always done them, particularly the poor slobs^W^W people who thanklessly^W cheerfully maintain individual ports, and have an exiting investment in getting on a project specific committers list, and have invested heavily in learning a project specific way of doing a port. Getting a ports tree ready for public consumption is probably the least of the worries you are going to have to address, unless you already have buy-in from at least two of the projects, at least one of which is FreeBSD. It's not an impossible task, but you need to address the biggest issues first, in order to minimize risk to the point of getting sufficient volunteer effort to get something ready, and it's very hard to nail down a commitment from a BSD project from people who have the power to make them, without presenting a fait accompli. The main watershed event will be when one of the projects drops their packaging system, and all "cvsup" for that project is from your site instead of the project specific site. Don't worry about it; it was just a handy example, and you already have Satoshi and some of the others on board, so it's probably not as much of a political uphill battle as it seems from the outside (which is what made it a good example). As a pointer of the type that I hinted at: a compelling value that you could add would be browser-based installation, using your own web server (or mirrors) that have a MIME-type that runs a signature validation program based on certificates of known signers, so the installations can be done as "root" with a single click for install. Another value would be to do a local browser plug-in to seperate "installed" and "uninstalled" views, but you could do that by downloading the certificate signed signature first, and then checking for an exisitng install based on that (but it's less pretty), or by using a local hierarchy ("file browse") in order to get the same effect. It's pretty trivial to do all of these things, if you require OpenSSH and some other things to be installed before you go (you would need to patch the local copy of the MIME types for the browser to invoke your scripts, though...). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 0:39:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1200537B400 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:38:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00863; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:38:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200101180838.AAA00863@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:38:36 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: howardjp@well.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200101180626.XAA29452@usr08.primenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18 Jan, Terry Lambert wrote: > Minor nits: > >>...[Trimmed]... >> >> Again, the start was 386BSD, then the "Unoffical Patch Kit". >> The UPK was written by Terry Lambert, then run by Dave Burgess >> and later Rodney Grimes. Jordan Hubbart was also a main person into. >> Jordan was one of the founders of FreeBSD. > > Rodney Grimes, then Nate Williams and Jordan Hubbard. Dave > Burgess took over the "Unofficial FAQ" from me before I handed > off the patchkit. > Thanks for the correction Terry. >>...[Trimmed]... >> >> NetBSD pulled out early from the 386BSD effort. Their direction >> was based on BSD tradition; make run on everything. Again, they >> left mostly because of tensions between the authors of 386BSD >> and the UPK. That is, people were making fixes to 386BSD, but >> the only way to incorporate them for more that 1 1/2 year was >> the UPK. >> >> The UPK had many problems it was a disaster (Sorry Terry). >> The UPK was never intended to run for more than a few months, >> but one (1) year later it was the only to get things to work. > > It was a very basic version control system, which relied on a > human being, rather than software, to ensure that order of > operation was maintained. > > Contrary to your repeated opinion of my intent in writing the > scripts which created, managed, and installed the patches, the > software itself was intended to last a very long time. It is > still in use today at at least 6 commercial organizations, none > of which, incidently, I ever worked for: the code was adopted > on its merits. > Thanks for that correction also, Terry. I'll make note of that in the future. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[TRIMMED<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >> >> In a sense, alot of the bad blood is Bill's fault, but >> other people (including myself) must share the blame. >> I could have done more at the time to mend fences, but >> I knew that the community could not move forward >> without a commone enemy. The eventually found one. >> It was Bill and Lynn Jolitz, the original authors >> of 386BSD. > > I disagree. The "bad blood", what there is of it, is the > result of a fringe of volatile personalities, which have > mostly been purged from the natural chokepoints of the > various BSD-derived projects. > > I really don't buy the "common enemy" theory for most > events in the Open Source community; the only place that > really applies is in a project "split", and that generally > only happens as a result of very strong ideological reasons. > We can discuss this theory at a later time Terry. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[TRIMMED<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >> I thank Terry Lambert for his corrections and comments. Evidence by this time shows the bad blood I was talking about. (ie. the snipping about the tape driver) As may be evident there is along way to go. I don't expect that within my life time this effort will resolve enough differences so that we will have one (1) BSD. However, in retrospect(sp?) and after meeting with members of the NetBSD, OpenBSD and Darwin groups it is my belief that BSD is only stronger by these different, if not divided, efforts. For as each group evolves (and this is where Terry and I differ in opinion, That is I say evolve) we will see different approaches to different problems. Meanwhile *BSD continues to grow now in the real world vs. the previous academinc environment. Best Regards, Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 0:43: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B35237B401 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:42:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00870; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:42:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200101180842.AAA00870@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:42:22 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: dan@langille.org Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, howardjp@well.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200101180647.TAA14325@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18 Jan, Dan Langille wrote: > On 18 Jan 2001, at 6:26, Terry Lambert wrote: >> The BSD community has grown to >> resemble a college fraternity, with its own set of >> "hazing" rules, which, thankfully, Linux and other >> Open Source software projects seem to have sucessfully >> avoided. > > Could you please elaborate on the "hazing" rules? > Sure watch this. Those who thought they could simply become scientist by enter CSRG have be fallen to reallity. It is now their role in life to track bugs and repeat the "see I told you so" retoritc. Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 0:55:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B84D37B400 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:55:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00887; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:55:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200101180855.AAA00887@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:55:26 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: howardjp@well.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200101180728.AAA00660@usr08.primenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18 Jan, Terry Lambert wrote: > More corrections... > >> AT&T sold Unix to Novell for $1 Billion dollars in the middle >> of this and in reallity it was Novell that settled. BTW, this >> $1B almost bankrupted(sp?) Novell. > > Novell bought USL for $80M, which is only 8% of the figure > you quote. This is the same price they charged Sun to get > out of royalty payments, and the later sale of USL to SCO was > nothing but gravy for them: very good ROI, in fact. > The figure I'm quoting was one I was given. If it is incorrect, then I need to get the correcting reference. Both John and I are working on a History of BSD. As such, the correct nature of facts becomes us. If you can please Terry, and reference information, rather that word of mouth, would assist us greatly. > The $1B purchase made at around the same time was the purchase > of Word Perfect. Along with AppWare (another company started Terry, I've forwarded this information to John as a possible error in our notes. Best Regards, Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 1:46:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3720637B69D for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 01:46:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01655; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 02:43:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA5Maand; Thu Jan 18 02:43:35 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA02733; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 02:46:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101180946.CAA02733@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: opentrax@email.com Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:46:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, howardjp@well.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200101180855.AAA00887@spammie.svbug.com> from "opentrax@email.com" at Jan 18, 2001 12:55:26 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> AT&T sold Unix to Novell for $1 Billion dollars in the middle > >> of this and in reallity it was Novell that settled. BTW, this > >> $1B almost bankrupted(sp?) Novell. > > > > Novell bought USL for $80M, which is only 8% of the figure > > you quote. This is the same price they charged Sun to get > > out of royalty payments, and the later sale of USL to SCO was > > nothing but gravy for them: very good ROI, in fact. > > The figure I'm quoting was one I was given. > If it is incorrect, then I need to get the correcting > reference. Both John and I are working on a History of BSD. > As such, the correct nature of facts becomes us. > > If you can please Terry, and reference information, rather > that word of mouth, would assist us greatly. I got "uncooked" numbers, as a senior employee with stock, so it's not exactly "word of mouth". 8-). Not only that, Novell almost made 100% ROI in one year. > > The $1B purchase made at around the same time was the purchase > > of Word Perfect. Along with AppWare (another company started > Terry, I've forwarded this information to John as a > possible error in our notes. See: http://www.secinfo.com/dr6nd.b43.htm#191stPage The $268.7 includes a $9.4M debt assumption, does not include the $80.5M Sun paid, does not include net sales by USL, and the value of the Novell stock at the time the transaction actually went through. I guess you could subtract out the earlier "investment in USL", which was actually a stock swap so that both companies had some skin in the game over Univel, so I think it shouldn't count as anything but a $17M paper cost. See also pg193 for income figures (you have to multiply the missing percentage, but it's simple algebra): http://www.secinfo.com/dr6nd.b43.htm#193rdPage Not including the overvaluation, the cost was $178.8M. If you include what Word Perfect did to the Novell stock, the cost drops to about $87.3M; I guess it depends on how you want to cook the books... For more more fun, look at the 1992 numbers for the VAX/VMS deal; I was one of 3 engineers responsible for that nice $15M number. Robert Withrow, also a FreeBSD person, was on the DEC side of that deal, as their primary (IMO) engineering contribution... I figure that I personally paid for almost 6% of the USL purchase with around one year of work, and between the 3 of us, it was over 17%. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 1:58:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (unknown [194.128.198.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0157937B6A0 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 01:58:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0I9QOq38522; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:26:24 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:26:24 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Terry Lambert Cc: opentrax@email.com, howardjp@well.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Message-ID: <20010118092624.B34934@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <200101172339.PAA05269@spammie.svbug.com> <200101180626.XAA29452@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200101180626.XAA29452@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 06:26:15AM +0000 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 06:26:15AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > Actually, I view the whole thing as a useful applied sociology > experiment, from which much useful information derived. If I > had the academic credentials as a social scientist to be seriously > published in the field, or wasn't busy with other things to the > point of being unable to waste time acquiring them, I'd write > several papers on the topic. That didn't prevent ESR from trying. . . N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 2: 4:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8F68E37B404 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 02:04:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13327 invoked from network); 18 Jan 2001 10:04:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory6.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.126) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 18 Jan 2001 10:04:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 17670 invoked by uid 211); 18 Jan 2001 10:04:18 -0000 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:34:18 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Nik Clayton Cc: Terry Lambert , opentrax@email.com, howardjp@well.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Message-ID: <20010118153417.B17528@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Nik Clayton , Terry Lambert , opentrax@email.com, howardjp@well.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG References: <200101172339.PAA05269@spammie.svbug.com> <200101180626.XAA29452@usr08.primenet.com> <20010118092624.B34934@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010118092624.B34934@canyon.nothing-going-on.org>; from nik@FreeBSD.ORG on Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 09:26:24AM +0000 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.15pre4 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nik Clayton said on Jan 18, 2001 at 09:26:24: > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 06:26:15AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Actually, I view the whole thing as a useful applied sociology > > experiment, from which much useful information derived. If I > > had the academic credentials as a social scientist to be seriously > > published in the field, or wasn't busy with other things to the > > point of being unable to waste time acquiring them, I'd write > > several papers on the topic. > > That didn't prevent ESR from trying. . . Besides, physicists have been known to publish papers in serious sociology journals, so why not programmers? See http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/#papers (for those who haven't heard of this: it's worth the visit) R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 2: 5:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A38C37B400 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 02:05:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA01076; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 02:04:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200101181004.CAA01076@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 02:04:49 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: howardjp@well.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200101180946.CAA02733@usr08.primenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18 Jan, Terry Lambert wrote: >> >> AT&T sold Unix to Novell for $1 Billion dollars in the middle >> >> of this and in reallity it was Novell that settled. BTW, this >> >> $1B almost bankrupted(sp?) Novell. >> > >> > Novell bought USL for $80M, which is only 8% of the figure >> > you quote. This is the same price they charged Sun to get >> > out of royalty payments, and the later sale of USL to SCO was >> > nothing but gravy for them: very good ROI, in fact. >> >> The figure I'm quoting was one I was given. >> If it is incorrect, then I need to get the correcting >> reference. Both John and I are working on a History of BSD. >> As such, the correct nature of facts becomes us. >> >> If you can please Terry, and reference information, rather >> that word of mouth, would assist us greatly. > > I got "uncooked" numbers, as a senior employee with stock, so > it's not exactly "word of mouth". 8-). > > Not only that, Novell almost made 100% ROI in one year. > > >> > The $1B purchase made at around the same time was the purchase >> > of Word Perfect. Along with AppWare (another company started >> Terry, I've forwarded this information to John as a >> possible error in our notes. > > See: > >...[Trimmed]... > Thanks, Terry. I've forward the information to John. Concrete information will help us paint the picture correctly. :-) Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 5:45: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.tfcc.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5036537B400 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 05:44:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by proxy.tfcc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA13038; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:44:32 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: proxy.tfcc.com: mail set sender to using -f Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by proxy.tfcc.com via smap (V2.1/2.1a) id xma013036; Thu, 18 Jan 01 08:44:03 -0500 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:44:02 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Fuhrman X-Sender: To: Terry Lambert Cc: , , , Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: <200101180626.XAA29452@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Howdy, I'm trying to represent, in my mind, the "BSD Family Tree" and have come up with the following ASCII drawing based on discussions here. Please note: * I am not an artist :) * I am assuming that OpenBSD split from NetBSD after BSD 4.4-Lite was release. I am using the "dotted" lines to show BSD 4.4-Lite's influence on Net- and FreeBSD. * I can't remember if there were any interim releases between Net/2 and 4.4-Lite * I am not placing Apple's Darwin on here. I *think* it's based off of FreeBSD and, if so, I'll be happy to add it. * While this drawing loosely illustrates the time line, it is not, by any means, "to scale". * I am not responsible if your e-mail package munges the drawing. It looked okay in pine dammit so it should look okay in yours ;) Please feel free to e-mail me any glaring mistakes and I'll be happy to repost this. +-----------+ | BSD Net/2 | +-----------+ | | +-----------+ | | 368BSD | +-----------+ +-----------+ |BSD4.4 Lite| - - - + | | +-----------+ | | | | +-----------+ | | NetBSD | < - - - - - - - + | +-----------+ | | | +-----------+ | | FreeBSD | < - - | - - - - - - - - + +-----------+ | +-----------+ | OpenBSD | +-----------+ -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 5:57:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rfhs8012.fh-regensburg.de (rfhs8012.fh-regensburg.de [194.95.108.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E84C37B402 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 05:56:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfhpc8320.fh-regensburg.de (feyrer@rfhpc8320 [194.95.108.32]) by rfhs8012.fh-regensburg.de (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f0IDtdG03543; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:55:39 +0100 (MET) Received: (from feyrer@localhost) by rfhpc8320.fh-regensburg.de (8.9.1/8.8.3) id OAA23324; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:56:03 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:56:03 +0100 (MET) From: Hubert Feyrer X-Sender: feyrer@rfhpc8320.fh-regensburg.de To: Chris Fuhrman Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Chris Fuhrman wrote: > I'm trying to represent, in my mind, the "BSD Family Tree" and have come > up with the following ASCII drawing based on discussions here. Please > note: See: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/levenez/unix/history.html Please keep me off the CC: list!!! - Hubert -- Hubert Feyrer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 6:47:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B2C37B400 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 06:47:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id BB76E57587; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:47:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:47:38 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Chris Fuhrman Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Message-ID: <20010118084738.A19987@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Chris Fuhrman , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200101180626.XAA29452@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cfuhrman@tfcci.com on Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 08:44:02AM -0500 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 08:44:02AM -0500, Chris Fuhrman scribbled: | I'm trying to represent, in my mind, the "BSD Family Tree" and have come | up with the following ASCII drawing based on discussions here. Please | note: /usr/share/misc/bsd-family-tree :) -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 6:48:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.tfcc.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CBCA37B401 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 06:48:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by proxy.tfcc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA16116; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:47:34 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: proxy.tfcc.com: mail set sender to using -f Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by proxy.tfcc.com via smap (V2.1/2.1a) id xma016108; Thu, 18 Jan 01 09:47:33 -0500 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:47:31 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Fuhrman X-Sender: To: , Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Hubert Feyrer wrote: > See: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/levenez/unix/history.html > This includes pretty much more than I could in any ASCII-art diagram *g* Even includes the latest releases of the Linux kernel, NetBSD, FreeBSD, and OpenBSD :) -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 7: 2:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [208.178.101.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04B837B400 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 07:02:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from well.com (howardjp@well.com [208.178.101.2]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id HAA20426; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 07:02:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by well.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25456; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 07:02:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 07:02:28 -0800 (PST) From: James Howard To: Chris Fuhrman Cc: Terry Lambert , opentrax@email.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Chris Fuhrman wrote: > I'm trying to represent, in my mind, the "BSD Family Tree" and have come Hey, that's my working title! It sucks too, so suggestions are welcome. As soon as I have a completed draft, I will be posting it. But something is missing here, I have seen several long postings on software development methodology and the history of BSD in the 90s. This is overkill, I am look for 100 words or less (less is more) which can say shortly why NetBSD and FreeBSD didn't join forces early on. A full history of BSD or Unix is far beyond the scope of my project. I also want to avoid inflaming or opening up old wounds, but I also want to make sure I don't lie to the reader. :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 7:21:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7073B37B401; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 07:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14JGs7-000Mc1-00; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:21:07 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0IFL7I69506; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:21:07 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:21:07 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: X forwarding Message-ID: <20010118152106.A69466@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I tried doing this by the book, and I can never get it to work. I used 'xhost +server.ip.address' on my machine then 'setenv DISPLAY my.ip.address:0' in an xterm telnetted to the server machine then 'netscape' on the server machine (in the xterm running telnet) I get a bit of a delay, then nothing. I know telnet is not secure, but that is all the machine offers at the moment. It's an old Sun system at school. What am I doing wrong? Shouldn't I just see netscape open up and starting running, just like usual, only slower? jcm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jonathon McKitrick ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 8:13:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7121737B401 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:13:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14JHgK-0004W8-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 16:13:00 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0IGCx769856 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 16:12:59 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 16:12:59 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: hungarian notation Message-ID: <20010118161259.A69693@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What are everyone's thoughts on Hungarian notation? Does it have a place in unix programming? Just in case anyone hasn't heard of the term, it's used to make variable names descriptive of their type, e.g. int iCounter; double dValue char szString; int* piPointer; jcm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jonathon McKitrick ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 8:23:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from michael.checkpoint.com (michael.checkpoint.com [199.203.73.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B3D437B69B for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:23:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by michael.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA24347; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:23:06 +0200 (IST) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0IGLWP77228; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:21:32 +0200 (IST) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:21:32 +0200 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: hungarian notation Message-ID: <20010118182131.A77212@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20010118161259.A69693@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010118161259.A69693@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:12:59PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:12:59PM +0000, j mckitrick wrote: > > What are everyone's thoughts on Hungarian notation? > Does it have a place in > unix programming? Why would you want to do the compiler's job? -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 9:25:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail3.registeredsite.com (mail3.registeredsite.com [64.224.9.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9410737B401 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:25:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.threespace.com (mail.threespace.com [216.247.134.44]) by mail3.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0IHPHL31015 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:25:17 -0500 Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com [24.21.224.204] by mail.threespace.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A6F828D1004C; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:25:12 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118122154.0370e628@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:25:05 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: hungarian notation In-Reply-To: <20010118161259.A69693@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I actually teach and emphasize Hungarian notation when I teach Visual Basic and C++ on Windows and UNIX. I think it's a good technique for moderately complex programs, almost a form of self-documentation. --Chip Morton At 11:12 AM 1/18/2001, you wrote: >What are everyone's thoughts on Hungarian notation? Does it have a place in >unix programming? > >Just in case anyone hasn't heard of the term, it's used to make variable >names descriptive of their type, e.g. > >int iCounter; >double dValue >char szString; >int* piPointer; > >jcm >-- >o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o >| ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jonathon McKitrick ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | >| "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | >o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 9:26:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.net [194.221.183.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A890537B699 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:26:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6578 invoked by uid 0); 18 Jan 2001 17:25:58 -0000 Received: from p3e9c2f6c.dip.t-dialin.net (HELO forge.local) (62.156.47.108) by mail.gmx.net (mail09) with SMTP; 18 Jan 2001 17:25:58 -0000 Received: from thomas by forge.local with local (Exim 3.16 #1 (Debian)) id 14JIoz-0000lb-00 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:26:01 +0100 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:26:01 +0100 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: hungarian notation Message-ID: <20010118182601.A2936@crow.dom2ip.de> Mail-Followup-To: tmoestl@gmx.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20010118161259.A69693@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010118161259.A69693@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:12:59PM +0000 From: Thomas Moestl Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:12:59PM +0000, j mckitrick wrote: > What are everyone's thoughts on Hungarian notation? Does it have a place in > unix programming? > > Just in case anyone hasn't heard of the term, it's used to make variable > names descriptive of their type, e.g. > > int iCounter; > double dValue > char szString; > int* piPointer; I think it's ugly. The type checking of modern C compilers is powerful enough to detect abuse (and C++ will make errors out of the warnings in most cases). The only case where it could make sense is the sz prefix in the case that pascal type strings are also around. But luckily, almost nobody will use pascal strings on unix, so it's not a problem. - thomas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 11:40:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay4.inwind.it (relay4.inwind.it [212.141.53.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB55837B401 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 11:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from bartequi.ottodomain.org (62.98.154.184) by relay4.inwind.it (5.1.056) id 3A5C38510020368C for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:39:56 +0100 From: Salvo Bartolotta Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 19:42:23 GMT Message-ID: <20010118.19422300@bartequi.ottodomain.org> Subject: Re: Tearcher Sites To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20010118044115.F011E37B404@hub.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: SuperCalifragilis X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 1/18/01, 5:41:15 AM, educationlists@yahoo.com wrote regarding Tearcher Sites: > I thought I would let you know about this web site I came across. > They do reviews of all kinds programs and products for education. > This is the link for last months product reviews, > http://horizon.unc.edu/TS/tools/2000-11.asp I dont know if they > have done this months yet or not. Take care. > -Jamie This is one of the most humoro(u)s messages I have ever read... Best regards, Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 14:27:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 515C837B401 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:27:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27493; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:26:31 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118152351.00cb89a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:26:13 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , opentrax@email.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: howardjp@well.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200101180626.XAA29452@usr08.primenet.com> References: <200101172339.PAA05269@spammie.svbug.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:26 PM 1/17/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >As an aside: > >Actually, I view the whole thing as a useful applied sociology >experiment, from which much useful information derived. If I >had the academic credentials as a social scientist to be seriously >published in the field, or wasn't busy with other things to the >point of being unable to waste time acquiring them, I'd write >several papers on the topic. A lack of credentials -- or a lack of ethics -- hasn't stopped one Eric Raymond from writing papers on this topic, most of them self-serving propaganda. You SHOULD publish, Terry; you make a lot more sense than Eric and wouldn't simply be out to increase the value of your stock. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 14:48:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (unknown [129.94.172.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0838237B401 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:48:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id f0HEMkW11803; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 01:22:46 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 01:22:45 +1100 From: Greg Lehey To: James Howard Cc: opentrax@email.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Message-ID: <20010118012245.D10950@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <200101171842.KAA04000@spammie.svbug.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from howardjp@well.com on Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 11:40:57AM -0800 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 17 January 2001 at 11:40:57 -0800, James Howard wrote: > > Why did Jolitz pull support from 386BSD? And what was BSDi doing at > the time? OK, let's look at some time lines. I'm currently travelling, so I don't have hard facts to back up all these statements, which are from my recollection. Feel free to counter them with facts. pre-1990: Some people at the Computer Sciences Research Group in Berkeley realized that the days of the CSRG were numbered, and work on releasing the Berkeley code in unencumbered form, primarily for people who wanted TCP/IP stacks. The result was the Berkeley Networking Tape, later called Net/1. It didn't pretend to be an operating system, but it was a complete TCP/IP stack. Still at Berkeley, Bill Jolitz and some others work towards porting 4.3BSD Reno to the 386, and making the result unencumbered. They failed, but Bill described the work in a very detailed series of articles in Dr. Dobbs Journal, starting (I think) in early 1991. mid-1991: The CSRG released Net/2, the unfinished attempt at a 4.3BSD port to the 80386. A large proportion of the CSRG members, including Mike Karels, Kirk McKusick, Chris Torek and Bill Jolitz, join up with some others, notably (at a later date; I think 1 December 1991) Rob Kolstad, to create a company called Berkeley Software Design Inc. (BSDI) to market this software. Quite early on people started writing the abbreviation as "BSDi", but they didn't in fact lower-case the i until April 2000. It's not clear what Bill Jolitz thought the goals of BSDI were. Rob Kolstad told me that he got very upset towards the end of the year because BSDI wanted to charge money for the system. It's not clear how he thought they were going to be viable without doing so, but he left BSDI on 1 December 1991, not before he had destroyed all his work. Feb 1992: BSDI releases the first Beta versions of their commercial operating system, BSD/386. Mar 1992: Bill Jolitz releases the first alpha version (0.0) of his free operating system, 386BSD. 14 July: Bill Jolitz releases version 0.1 of 386BSD. At this point, BSD/386 was quite a usable system. I was running both Interactive UNIX/386, a System V.3.2 derivative, and BSD/386 0.3.3, and the BSD/386 was already much more polished than Interactive. By all accounts 386BSD was still a disaster. I once started trying to install it, but didn't get very far. Apr 1993: NetBSD 0.8 came out. Dec 1993: FreeBSD 1.0 came out. End 1995: Dr. Dobbs markets "386BSD 1.0" on CD-ROM for $99, promising support. It was a disaster, no support was forthcoming, and the documentation was in a proprietary Microsoft format. I don't know that anybody ever got it running: by that time FreeBSD and NetBSD were just too far ahead, and the CDs were a lot cheaper. So why did Bill "pull support"? I don't think he did. He never offered any support, and much of the ill-feeling came from people who thought that he should put their patches back into the base. That would have been a sensible thing to do, of course, but he obviously didn't want to do it. I suspect that he found the whole thing had grown over his head. In hindsight, it's surprising that it took so long for the NetBSD and FreeBSD people to get started. If it had happened earlier, it's possible that people might have got over their differences and formed a united BSD project. I don't know if that would have brought better results. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 14:52: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (unknown [129.94.172.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0836E37B404; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:51:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id f0HDE3r11391; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:14:03 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:14:03 +1100 From: Greg Lehey To: Francisco Reyes Cc: Nik Clayton , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, James Howard , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Message-ID: <20010118001403.B10950@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <20010117175244.A34934@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <200101172102.QAA96480@sanson.reyes.somos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200101172102.QAA96480@sanson.reyes.somos.net>; from fran@reyes.somos.net on Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 03:36:06PM -0500 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 17 January 2001 at 15:36:06 -0500, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:52:44 +0000, Nik Clayton wrote: > >>> What I never understood is why "officially" they don't coperate more with >>> each other. I believe that unoficially some of the developers >>> work/help/contribute to more than one of the BSDs. >> >> Lots of the developers work on more than one BSD. What would you like >> to see in order to make that 'official'? > > A list, even if minimal, of things which the "architects" (i.e. > core on FreeBSD, don't know it's equivalent on NetBSD) The NetBSD core group. But, like the FreeBSD core team, they're not the architects. The committers are the architects. > agreed to at least consider the other OS. I am not saying they > should consult each other for everything, but they could at least > keep in other in mind that would be great. Well, I agree with Nik that things are getting a lot closer. But I think that the way to come closer together is for the individual subprojects to work together. And I think that's happening. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 14:58:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E93C37B400; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:57:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA58611; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:55:41 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:55:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X forwarding In-Reply-To: <20010118152106.A69466@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, j mckitrick wrote: > then 'netscape' on the server machine (in the xterm running telnet) > I get a bit of a delay, then nothing. Try xterm instead; netscape requires quite a bit of thinking and bandwidth. IIRC, the order was correct: local% xhost +remote.ip.or.name (for [t]csh) remote% setenv DISPLAY my.local.ip.or.name:0 > What am I doing wrong? Shouldn't I just see netscape open up and starting > running, just like usual, only slower? Depends on what kind of bandwidth you have. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 14:59:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9217537B404 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:59:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA58691; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:58:57 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:58:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118152351.00cb89a0@localhost> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > A lack of credentials -- or a lack of ethics -- hasn't stopped > one Eric Raymond from writing papers on this topic, most of > them self-serving propaganda. No offense Brett, but I imagine some people are thinking the same thing about you. (Before you start to rip into me, realize that I do not have you kill-filed, unlike others. Hint Hint.) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 15:32:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F077B37B401; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:31:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA08405; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:01:31 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:01:31 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Kris Kirby Subject: Re: X forwarding Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, j mckitrick Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18-Jan-01 Kris Kirby wrote: > > I get a bit of a delay, then nothing. > > Try xterm instead; netscape requires quite a bit of thinking and > bandwidth. IIRC, the order was correct: > > local% xhost +remote.ip.or.name > > (for [t]csh) > remote% setenv DISPLAY my.local.ip.or.name:0 > > > What am I doing wrong? Shouldn't I just see netscape open up and starting > > running, just like usual, only slower? > > Depends on what kind of bandwidth you have. Well, handy tip number 1.. xhost authentication sucks :) If you login using xdm you get xauth authentication which is slightly safer.. You can also use ssh which can forward X connections over the secure tunnel and it can compress the stream which can speed it up over slow links. Admittedly your xhost example should have worked however.. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 16: 2:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9103A37B401 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 16:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from dmlb.org ([62.253.135.85]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010119000203.TVBC285.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@dmlb.org>; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 00:02:03 +0000 Received: from dmlb by dmlb.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 14JP0E-000Cb6-00; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 00:02:02 +0000 Content-Length: 2200 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010117131158.G97038@klapaucius.zer0.org> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 00:02:02 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: Gregory Sutter Subject: Re: US Invasion by a UK FreeBSDer Cc: Tony Finch , chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17-Jan-01 Gregory Sutter wrote: > On 2001-01-16 08:04 -0000, Duncan Barclay wrote: >> On 16-Jan-01 Gregory Sutter wrote: >> > On 2001-01-14 06:49 +0000, Tony Finch wrote: >> >> Gregory Sutter wrote: >> >> > >> >> >We could also have an impromptu BSD enthusiasts' meeting somewhere >> >> >in SOMA; perhaps the 21st Amendment (2nd and Brannan) would be a >> >> >good place to go for food, drinks, and a place to talk on one of >> >> >those weeknights. >> >> >> >> That sounds good. I work at 3rd & Mission, and owing to lack of >> >> mobility I haven't been to as many Bay Area BSD meets as I would like. >> >> (I don't drive and I only got my bike in SFO recently.) >> >> >> >> I'm very much in favour of social meets (i.e. in a pub) with the >> >> occasional talk, much like the London Unix Users Group and the UK >> >> FreeBSD Users Group. >> > >> > Okay! Let's definitely meet up, then. How about Thursday? Anyone >> > care? >> >> I can't guarantee that I'm around Thursday evening. I would prefer >> Tuesday or Wednesday. > > Whatever is good for you. Shall we say Tuesday then. You say the food is good so lets eat there, say meet at 6.30? I'll try and remember to wear a FreeBSD tee-shirt (Dutch hackers-fest, Beastie with clogs) and I know what Tony looks like. I also might be able to make the BAWUG on Thursay, my commitment will finsih about 8pm. Is the Marriot far from whereever the BAWUG is? >> > I just heard today that Chris Coleman, also of Daemon News (I am >> > as well), is in town too, and would like to join us. This should >> > be fun. > > Actually, I was wrong. Chris is in town this week, not in Feb. I hope you get a chance for a beer then! > Greg > -- > Gregory S. Sutter "I think not," said Descartes... > mailto:gsutter@zer0.org and promptly disappeared. > http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ > hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@dmlb.org | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. dmlb@freebsd.org| Steven King To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 19:20:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791ED37B69B for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 19:20:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1584"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01JZ2HB0GPYG004QIS@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:20:15 EST Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:31:51 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Message-id: <3A67B527.DB3B58B1@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010117175244.A34934@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <200101172102.QAA96480@sanson.reyes.somos.net> <20010118001403.B10950@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > ... > > > agreed to at least consider the other OS. I am not saying they > > should consult each other for everything, but they could at least > > keep in other in mind that would be great. > > Well, I agree with Nik that things are getting a lot closer. But I > think that the way to come closer together is for the individual > subprojects to work together. And I think that's happening. > A comment from an outsider: The codebases are converging slowly but around the same principles. UBC and SMP, altough still early on NetBSD, FreeBSD's initial multiplatform support, and the concept of auditing derived from OpenBSD, are signs that the projects are sharing objectives (maybe) for the first time. Having three BSD camps has been great...did you notice that NetBSD's development spurred when OpenBSD was created?? Maybe it's the time for a unified "Free" BSD, maybe not. This is just my personal view, and I don't really know the actors here, but I don't see OpenBSD folding back into any other project. While difficult, I would see NetBSD merging with FreeBSD in a future..how far? nobody knows... when people have worked on a great project for so many years it's difficult to move another camp suddenly. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 19:34:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC94D37B69C for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 19:34:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA21522; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:28:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAURaWXP; Thu Jan 18 20:28:28 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA27007; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:33:58 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101190333.UAA27007@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: hungarian notation To: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:33:57 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010118161259.A69693@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> from "j mckitrick" at Jan 18, 2001 04:12:59 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What are everyone's thoughts on Hungarian notation? Does it have a place in > unix programming? > > Just in case anyone hasn't heard of the term, it's used to make variable > names descriptive of their type, e.g. > > int iCounter; > double dValue > char szString; > int* piPointer; It makes it harder than hell to call "decorated" library functions from monocase languages, like FORTRAN, COBOL, etc.. I think the _ONE_ valid thing to come out of ANSI prototypes (other than making it the programmers job to do the work that belongs in the linker; linker writers are lazy... but I digress) is that you don't need this BS, since the compiler will whine at you when you have type clashes anyway. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 20:13:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 614DA37B404 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:12:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA13133; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:10:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAWDaaBz; Thu Jan 18 21:09:58 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA27824; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:12:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101190412.VAA27824@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 04:12:26 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), opentrax@email.com, howardjp@well.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118152351.00cb89a0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Jan 18, 2001 03:26:13 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Actually, I view the whole thing as a useful applied sociology > >experiment, from which much useful information derived. If I > >had the academic credentials as a social scientist to be seriously > >published in the field, or wasn't busy with other things to the > >point of being unable to waste time acquiring them, I'd write > >several papers on the topic. > > A lack of credentials -- or a lack of ethics -- hasn't stopped > one Eric Raymond from writing papers on this topic, most of > them self-serving propaganda. You SHOULD publish, Terry; you > make a lot more sense than Eric and wouldn't simply be out to > increase the value of your stock. I said "seriously". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 22: 3:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E79A37B402 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:02:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01877; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:02:39 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118214402.049ce830@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:45:10 -0700 To: dan@langille.org, Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: howardjp@well.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200101180647.TAA14325@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> References: <200101180626.XAA29452@usr08.primenet.com> <200101172339.PAA05269@spammie.svbug.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:47 PM 1/17/2001, Dan Langille wrote: >Could you please elaborate on the "hazing" rules? Try some of the flames, etc. to which I've been subjected over time. And I wasn't even trying to become a committer (I program in C when I *have* to, not because I like to). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 22: 3:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9410637B404 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:02:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01881; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:02:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118215247.047d8df0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:56:34 -0700 To: Kris Kirby From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118152351.00cb89a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:58 PM 1/18/2001, Kris Kirby wrote: >No offense Brett, but I imagine some people are thinking the same thing >about you. > >(Before you start to rip into me, realize that I do not have you >kill-filed, unlike others. Hint Hint.) I'm glad you don't. But your statement is not fair. Unlike ESR, I care about ethics and am not merely trying to promote my own financial success at my colleagues' expense. As for the kill files: this is part of the hazing/shunning that was alluded to in earlier messages in this thread. It's a power game. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 22:23:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08DBF37B402 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from C992631-A.pinol1.sfba.home.com (C992631-A.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.12.58.155]) by shale.csir.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA71105; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:21:47 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by C992631-A.pinol1.sfba.home.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0J6LTe82460; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:21:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:21:29 -0800 From: Jeremy Lea To: Brett Glass Cc: Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Message-ID: <20010118222129.B360@shale.csir.co.za> Mail-Followup-To: Jeremy Lea , Brett Glass , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118152351.00cb89a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118215247.047d8df0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118215247.047d8df0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 09:56:34PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 09:56:34PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > As for the kill files: this is part of the hazing/shunning that > was alluded to in earlier messages in this thread. It's a power > game. ROTFL... Brett, I think you need to lighten your view of the world. The kill files are there because people do this for fun, and reading a your rants, flames and paranoid delusions just isn't fun! Regards, -Jeremy -- FreeBSD - Because the best things in life are free... http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 22:25:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CE6C37B6A0; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:25:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA02062; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:25:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118232422.049b7a50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:25:18 -0700 To: Jeremy Lea From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010118222129.B360@shale.csir.co.za> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118215247.047d8df0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118152351.00cb89a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118215247.047d8df0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:21 PM 1/18/2001, Jeremy Lea wrote: >Brett, I think you need to lighten your view of the world. The kill >files are there because people do this for fun, and reading a your >rants, flames and paranoid delusions just isn't fun! I see that you don't believe I've completed the obligatory "hazing" yet. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 22:27:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8030937B400 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15562 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2001 06:27:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 19 Jan 2001 06:27:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 12247 invoked by uid 211); 19 Jan 2001 06:27:17 -0000 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:57:16 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Message-ID: <20010119115716.M11626@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118215247.047d8df0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118152351.00cb89a0@localhost> <20010118222129.B360@shale.csir.co.za> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118232422.049b7a50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118232422.049b7a50@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 11:25:18PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Jan 18, 2001 at 23:25:18: > At 11:21 PM 1/18/2001, Jeremy Lea wrote: > > >Brett, I think you need to lighten your view of the world. The kill > >files are there because people do this for fun, and reading a your > >rants, flames and paranoid delusions just isn't fun! > > I see that you don't believe I've completed the obligatory > "hazing" yet. You mean, you think reading your rants, flames and paranoid delusions *is* fun? Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 22:34:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D30937B402; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:34:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA02125; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:33:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118233228.04a5f5f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:33:13 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010119115716.M11626@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118232422.049b7a50@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118215247.047d8df0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118152351.00cb89a0@localhost> <20010118222129.B360@shale.csir.co.za> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118232422.049b7a50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:27 PM 1/18/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >You mean, you think reading your rants, flames and paranoid >delusions *is* fun? Another fun aspect of the hazing: those doing it have a tendency to "pile on." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 22:37:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 251DD37B402 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:37:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15584 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2001 06:36:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 19 Jan 2001 06:36:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 12274 invoked by uid 211); 19 Jan 2001 06:36:55 -0000 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:06:55 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Message-ID: <20010119120655.N11626@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118232422.049b7a50@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118215247.047d8df0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118152351.00cb89a0@localhost> <20010118222129.B360@shale.csir.co.za> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118232422.049b7a50@localhost> <20010119115716.M11626@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118233228.04a5f5f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118233228.04a5f5f0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 11:33:13PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Jan 18, 2001 at 23:33:13: > At 11:27 PM 1/18/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >You mean, you think reading your rants, flames and paranoid > >delusions *is* fun? > > Another fun aspect of the hazing: those doing it have a > tendency to "pile on." I'm not hazing. How could I? You've been around on the FreeBSD lists much longer than me... I was perfectly serious, and so is everyone else who you think is hazing you. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 22:56:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C5B37B401; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:56:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA02234; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:55:24 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118235413.049e3c30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:55:19 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010119120655.N11626@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118233228.04a5f5f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118232422.049b7a50@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118215247.047d8df0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118152351.00cb89a0@localhost> <20010118222129.B360@shale.csir.co.za> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118232422.049b7a50@localhost> <20010119115716.M11626@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118233228.04a5f5f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:36 PM 1/18/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >I was perfectly serious, and so is everyone else who you think is >hazing you. You're being rude, annoying and childish. Quit playing schoolyard games. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 23:20:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from starwolf.com (starwolf.com [208.184.74.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CD2537B402; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:20:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from starwolf (greywolf@starwolf [208.184.74.2]) by starwolf.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f0J7IdD21533; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:18:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:18:39 -0800 (PST) From: Greywolf To: Brett Glass Cc: Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118232422.049b7a50@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Brett Glass wrote: # Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:25:18 -0700 # From: Brett Glass # To: Jeremy Lea # Cc: Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, # netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG # Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? # # At 11:21 PM 1/18/2001, Jeremy Lea wrote: # # >Brett, I think you need to lighten your view of the world. The kill # >files are there because people do this for fun, and reading a your # >rants, flames and paranoid delusions just isn't fun! # # I see that you don't believe I've completed the obligatory # "hazing" yet. Beg pardon, good sirs, but is this what usually happens on the FreeBSD lists, or is this back-and-forth merely an anomaly provided for the amusement of the casually-included NetBSD crowd? When there was a statement made about "hazing", it was made to sound as though it covered both NetBSD and FreeBSD. Observing the ping-pong match in progress, I think I can safely say that the newbies in NetBSD are treated with much less of a hazing than they are in FreeBSD. Why this is, I'm not sure. Regarding ego-boo, anyone who's ever contributed code is not exempt. How many people look at something they've written or patched and smiled as it worked? I know I do that. In the grand scheme of things, it's insignificant -- nobody knows (or cares) that I submitted the code. It works, and that's all that matters, and that's just fine with me, especially considering that I'm not a brilliant coder and can't do device drivers. Regarding the splits: I was only present for the Net/Open split, and I must confess I was a bit dismayed that it happened. In doing my part to try and step in and avert the split, I received no less than several very good pixel-lashings from parties involved and have probably succeeded in alienating several people. So much for good intentions, but life goes on. You have no idea how many times I've mentioned that I'm tangentially involved with BSD (read: I use it and occasionally submit problems and, even less frequently, code to fix them) and been accosted for having such hostile mailing lists. I ask "Which BSD are you talking about?" I'm told either OpenBSD or FreeBSD. I think I've had a small percentage of them report being on NetBSD, so we're not on a high horse over here, especially when stuff that smells like System V or Solaris decides to ride into town. We have our very own System V advocate, and that creates some rather...um...lively discussions, especially when people are forced to look at why they object to importing the mechanism in question ("Does it suck because it's technically unsound, or does it suck just because it's System V?") [Are there any TOTALLY uninitiated people out there who are unaware of the rivalry between the SysV camp and the BSD camp? Ask someone sometime on either side of the fence for why their way is better, but get the other side of the story, too, and make your own decisions.] Sorry to ramble; someone just happened to twiddle the boot flag on something that's been compiling on the hard drive that is my brain... # --Brett --*greywolf; -- *BSD is much like a tipi: No windows, no gates, and an apache inside. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 18 23:26: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quack.kfu.com (quack.kfu.com [205.178.90.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DB9737B401 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from morpheus.kfu.com (morpheus.kfu.com [205.178.90.230]) by quack.kfu.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0J7Po703397 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:25:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nsayer@quack.kfu.com) Received: from quack.kfu.com by morpheus.kfu.com with ESMTP (8.11.1//ident-1.0) id f0J7Pnh24400; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:25:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A67EBFD.2050403@quack.kfu.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:25:49 -0800 From: Nick Sayer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386; en-US; 0.7) Gecko/20010115 X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Junkyard Wars team? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am considering setting up a team of Northern California FreeBSD enthusiasts to sign up to compete in Junkyard Wars (tlc.discovery.com). Especially needed are people who know how to weld. I have a great idea for our audition video, but we must hurry as the deadline looms. A team consists of 3 members, of which I would like to be one. FreeBSD experience is of no particular assistance in the Junkyard, but FreeBSD enthusiasm is a must. :-) Let's get Beastie on TV! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 0:30:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from meow.osd.bsdi.com (meow.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C974937B404 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 00:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by meow.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0J8RGL75586; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 00:27:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118215247.047d8df0@localhost> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 00:29:33 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Kris Kirby Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19-Jan-01 Brett Glass wrote: > At 03:58 PM 1/18/2001, Kris Kirby wrote: > >>No offense Brett, but I imagine some people are thinking the same thing >>about you. >> >>(Before you start to rip into me, realize that I do not have you >>kill-filed, unlike others. Hint Hint.) > > I'm glad you don't. But your statement is not fair. Unlike ESR, > I care about ethics and am not merely trying to promote my own > financial success at my colleagues' expense. > > As for the kill files: this is part of the hazing/shunning that > was alluded to in earlier messages in this thread. It's a power > game. Actually, that is because many people have noticed that you tend to say the same thing over and over, and since they don't agree with you, they'd just as soon not see the same thing that they disagree with over and over. As a committer, I can safely say that no hazing took place for me to become a committer. I know that hazing is and is not: I was in both a military college and a fraternity at school. :) What is true is that FreeBSD is rather bottom heavy (lots of coders). However, part of this derives from its nature: the reason people are committers is because they can add something to the repository. Things like articles in magazines aren't stored in the CVS repository, so they don't lend themselves to gaining commit access as it were. Neither does QA type work. However, these items are just as essential as the stuff that is in the repo. One thing that would be helpful is to find ways to reward this work similar to the ways that we reward people who submit code. For example, a @FreeBSD.org mail address and/or homepage. Hopefully, such would encourage peopel to do stuff like QA, which we sorely need more of. However, there is one way in which FreeBSD is kind of like a frat, and that is that the community attracts people that are somewhat similar. This is true for almost any organization. When a company hires people, it wants to hire people who fit in with the existing culture, not someone who will just cause constant uproars. I'm afraid, Brett, that some people find you to be at odds with large portions of the rest of the community, which is why you haven't garnered as wide acceptance as you would like. > --Brett -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 1:39:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E112337B69D for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 01:39:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebsd.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.207] helo=chemicalterrorism.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14JY0Y-000Bsw-0C for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:39:10 +0000 Received: from sycho (sycho.chemicalterrorism.com [192.168.0.2]) by chemicalterrorism.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C589F432 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:37:34 +0000 (GMT) From: "Si." To: Subject: RE: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:37:54 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118235413.049e3c30@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ffs cant you people give it a rest or take it somewhere.... -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Brett Glass Sent: 19 January 2001 06:55 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Jeremy Lea; Kris Kirby; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? At 11:36 PM 1/18/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >I was perfectly serious, and so is everyone else who you think is >hazing you. You're being rude, annoying and childish. Quit playing schoolyard games. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 1:56:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rapier.smartspace.co.za (rapier.smartspace.co.za [66.8.25.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2835C37B401 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 01:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17523 invoked by uid 1001); 19 Jan 2001 09:56:02 -0000 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:56:02 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Message-ID: <20010119115602.A11655@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118232422.049b7a50@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118215247.047d8df0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118152351.00cb89a0@localhost> <20010118222129.B360@shale.csir.co.za> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118232422.049b7a50@localhost> <20010119115716.M11626@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118233228.04a5f5f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118233228.04a5f5f0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 11:33:13PM -0700 Organization: Building Intelligence X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu 2001-01-18 (23:33), Brett Glass wrote: > >You mean, you think reading your rants, flames and paranoid > >delusions *is* fun? > > Another fun aspect of the hazing: those doing it have a > tendency to "pile on." I know this runs the risk of starting a "Brett vs. World" pile-on, and it was indeed inspired in part by the behaviour that Brett describes (I assume in a deprecatory manner), but since we're spouting about social groups, entrance, hazing, and so forth... Part of many groups, is the person who never realises that people in the group really don't approve of his behaviour, and _really_ don't agree with his rhetoric, despite his numerous anonymous referrals to people who do. The possible reasons he gives to himself are either mass delusion or mass stupidity within the members of the group. Of course they want him to behave this way; they'd be stupid not to. This person sometimes, but not always, complains about how the group shouldn't badmouth him to within the group, or with others, and accuses them of backstabbing his attempts to do "what the group really wants, but just doesn't know it". What this person doesn't really understand is that he isn't showing the respect of the group necessary to have reciprocal respect. While it's usual for groups to have members of varying beliefs, it is unusual for groups to allow in members who show fundamentalist tendencies in areas where there are varying beliefs within the population and push that vision as a vision for the entire group. If this fundamentalist nature also continues to drive new members of the group, this compounds the hesitancy to admit this person as a member to the group. This person tends to not to realise the group exists for purposes other than which he believes it should have, and tends not to change his views. I'm not a qualified student of social science, but I have seen this within two groups of which I am a member (a militant feminist and an anti-discrimination group, and an anti-religious person in a an organisation opposing the benefits accorded to certain religious groups at a university). I also managed to realise I was inhibiting my own entry into a group due to my drive for a belief that was not yet even thought about, let alone shared. However, upon realisation, I toned down the rhetoric, and joined the group for the sake of the group, not my personal causes, as the group exists for its own purposes, not necessarily my own. Subsequently, those purposes have become increasingly similar to mine, as I contribute to the group, and prove my worth as a member of the group, and with the natural sharing and modification of views of members in the group. (I'll make this on-topic by mentioning that this has to do with BSD advocacy. Or something.) Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 2:19:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D06B837B401 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 02:19:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA06777; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:19:05 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200101191019.XAA06777@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary / FreshPorts To: Brett Glass Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:19:03 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <20010119115602.A11655@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118233228.04a5f5f0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 11:33:13PM -0700 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Jan 2001, at 11:56, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > I know this runs the risk of starting a "Brett vs. World" pile-on, and > it was indeed inspired in part by the behaviour that Brett describes (I > assume in a deprecatory manner), but since we're spouting about social > groups, entrance, hazing, and so forth... Brett, don't be offended. Don't reply. Don't start justifying anything. Just take what Neil has said and digest it. For a few weeks. And please don't reply to me either. Thanks. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 2:42:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (unknown [194.128.198.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9099037B69C; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 02:42:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0JA10f47285; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:01:00 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:00:59 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: John Baldwin Cc: Brett Glass , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Kris Kirby Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Message-ID: <20010119100059.A47251@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118215247.047d8df0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jhb@FreeBSD.org on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 12:29:33AM -0800 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 12:29:33AM -0800, John Baldwin wrote: > heavy (lots of coders). However, part of this derives from its nature: the > reason people are committers is because they can add something to the > repository. Things like articles in magazines aren't stored in the CVS > repository, so they don't lend themselve s to gaining commit access as it > were. Oh yes they are. doc//articles/. There's a distinct lack of people handling them at the moment, and my spare time is somewhat limited at the moment, but the facility is there. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 2:50:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from meow.osd.bsdi.com (meow.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75FC137B69E; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 02:50:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by meow.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0JAm2L77617; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 02:48:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010119100059.A47251@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 02:50:20 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Nik Clayton Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, Brett Glass Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19-Jan-01 Nik Clayton wrote: > On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 12:29:33AM -0800, John Baldwin wrote: >> heavy (lots of coders). However, part of this derives from its nature: the >> reason people are committers is because they can add something to the >> repository. Things like articles in magazines aren't stored in the CVS >> repository, so they don't lend themselve s to gaining commit access as it >> were. > > Oh yes they are. doc//articles/. > > There's a distinct lack of people handling them at the moment, and my > spare time is somewhat limited at the moment, but the facility is there. Erm, so far we haven't had copies of articles sent in to DDJ, which is what I was hinting at. I was not aware that we wished to import such things. My point was more that there are things that one can do to contribute to the project that aren't rewarded with committership at the moment. If that makes any sense. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 4:14:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from apoq.skynet.be (apoq.skynet.be [195.238.2.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7967637B400 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 04:14:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.1.121] (warp-core.skynet.be [195.238.2.25]) by apoq.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96ACEA214; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:13:59 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A67B527.DB3B58B1@pitt.edu> References: <20010117175244.A34934@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <200101172102.QAA96480@sanson.reyes.somos.net> <20010118001403.B10950@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <3A67B527.DB3B58B1@pitt.edu> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:27:15 +0100 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:31 PM -0500 2001/1/18, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > Having three BSD camps has been great...did you notice that NetBSD's > development spurred when OpenBSD was created?? Maybe it's the time for > a unified "Free" BSD, maybe not. What I see that is actually happening is that each project is taking code and concepts from the other two projects (and re-working them as needed), as they have needs and interests that permit/require them to do so. So, as FreeBSD becomes more portable, it takes stuff from NetBSD and then does some re-working. As NetBSD becomes more powerful (e.g., adding SMP), they take code from FreeBSD and then do some re-working. As either FreeBSD or NetBSD become more secure, they rummage around through the OpenBSD code to see what can be re-used. So, over time, these three projects are continuing to cross-pollinate with each other, and ultimately some time in the distant future, you may very well see the resulting hybrid get so close, and after a number of the original players have either retired or changed their more radical views over the years, you may actually see a point where the core people agree that it no longer makes sense to keep the projects separate, and there is essentially a vote taken (and won) to agree to fully merge what little is left. However, I don't see this happening on a fast time table. I think we're probably talking about another ten to twenty years, at least. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 4:14:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from apoq.skynet.be (apoq.skynet.be [195.238.2.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B9F037B401 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 04:14:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.1.121] (warp-core.skynet.be [195.238.2.25]) by apoq.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9325EA004; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:14:02 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200101190333.UAA27007@usr08.primenet.com> References: <200101190333.UAA27007@usr08.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:30:49 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: hungarian notation Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:33 AM +0000 2001/1/19, Terry Lambert wrote: > I think the _ONE_ valid thing to come out of ANSI prototypes > (other than making it the programmers job to do the work that > belongs in the linker; linker writers are lazy... but I digress) > is that you don't need this BS, since the compiler will whine at > you when you have type clashes anyway. I understand that the compiler should bitch at you if you get this wrong, but IMO it is better if the programmer gets it right to begin with. Hungarian notation is not a sufficient feature to guarantee that this will happen, but it is a stylistic aid that programers can use that may help them more often get it right the first time, and towards that end I believe that it is a good idea. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 4:15: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from apoq.skynet.be (apoq.skynet.be [195.238.2.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AEFA37B402; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 04:14:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.1.121] (warp-core.skynet.be [195.238.2.25]) by apoq.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA4FEA214; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:14:03 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:06:49 +0100 To: Greywolf , Brett Glass From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:18 PM -0800 2001/1/18, Greywolf wrote: > When there was a statement made about "hazing", it was made to sound > as though it covered both NetBSD and FreeBSD. Observing the ping-pong > match in progress, I think I can safely say that the newbies in NetBSD > are treated with much less of a hazing than they are in FreeBSD. Why > this is, I'm not sure. The ping-pong match currently in progress is in regard to certain people who have apparently been around in the FreeBSD community for quite some time, but who have personalities such that many within the community consider them to be, at best eccentric, and at worst complete and total whackos that aught to be locked up. This has nothing to do with "hazing" since it is not directed at a person who is new to the process, and it is not coming exclusively (or even primarily) from people who have been around longer, and feel that the hazing is not yet complete. If you've been around in the BSD community for a while, you should recognize situations like this, and be able to distinguish them from the "hazing" that newcomers are subject to. Now, if you've been in the NetBSD community for a while, I suspect that part of the reason why there appears to be less hazing going on over there is that there are a much wider variety of hardware platforms that NetBSD runs on, and many of the potentially abrasive and abusive people tend to be more isolated in hardware-specific sub-groups within NetBSD. As such, these abrasive and potentially abusive people tend to interact with each other less, thus resulting in less mud-throwing matches, and probably less hazing as well -- there's just too much porting work to go around and not enough time spent by enough abrasive people who are more likely to have similar skills and are likely to get put (or to put themselves) into situations where they frequently conflict with others. Speaking as a relative newcomer to FreeBSD, I definitely feel that there is a certain amount of hazing that goes on. If you want to contribute to the project, you're expected to write code. At the very least, if you want to contribute to the project, you're expected to be able to read code, so that you can point out what is wrong, although you might not be able to fix it. If you can't even read code, you're most definitely a second-class (or even third-class) citizen. The phrase "Use the Source, Luke!" is frequently used, and when the talents you have do not lend itself to doing this, quite frequently you get blown off. I know that this has happened to me. I'm here to tell you that not every FreeBSD user is a good systems administrator (or any kind of a systems administrator, for that matter). Likewise, not every FreeBSD user is a good programmer (or any kind of a programmer). You shouldn't have to be a programmer to be able to make material contributions to the project. While I believe that this attitude is slowly in the process of being changed, I do not believe that this process of change is anywhere close to being complete. Yes, people with other talents are in the process of becoming more appreciated (e.g., technical writers to do the documentation, etc...), but this process is not anywhere near as far along as it should be. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 7:55: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (unknown [194.128.198.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5785637B69C; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 07:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0JFVTs49300; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:31:29 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:31:29 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Brad Knowles Cc: Greywolf , Brett Glass , Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Message-ID: <20010119153129.A48976@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 01:06:49PM +0100 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 01:06:49PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > Speaking as a relative newcomer to FreeBSD, I definitely feel > that there is a certain amount of hazing that goes on. If you want > to contribute to the project, you're expected to write code. Manifestly not true. Write new documentation or help improve existing documentation. That's probably the fastest track to getting a commit bit as well. > At the > very least, if you want to contribute to the project, you're expected > to be able to read code, so that you can point out what is wrong, > although you might not be able to fix it. If you can't even read > code, you're most definitely a second-class (or even third-class) > citizen. Having been at both BSD conventions, Usenix, and a number of other conferences, and having met most or all of the committer base at some point or another, I have yet to meet a committer that considers the documentation team to be n-class citizens. I have seen several instances where someone has approached the project with a problem, and has been unable to work with the project to resolve the problem (be it code related or documentation related). I have yet to see an instance where this hasn't been because the submitter has not completely grasped the fact that the project members are volunteers, and that, at that particular time, they may not have sufficient spare time to deal with the problem. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 8:12:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6F0537B6A0; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:12:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05881; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:11:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119090519.00e2ff00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:11:29 -0700 To: Greywolf From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118232422.049b7a50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:18 AM 1/19/2001, Greywolf wrote: >Beg pardon, good sirs, but is this what usually happens on the FreeBSD >lists, or is this back-and-forth merely an anomaly provided for the >amusement of the casually-included NetBSD crowd? > >When there was a statement made about "hazing", it was made to sound >as though it covered both NetBSD and FreeBSD. Observing the ping-pong >match in progress, I think I can safely say that the newbies in NetBSD >are treated with much less of a hazing than they are in FreeBSD. Why >this is, I'm not sure. I think that this is because the NetBSD crowd, overall, is far more laid back than the FreeBSD crowd. When one enters a group of FreeBSDers, there's a fairly good chance that one will bump up against one big ego or another. The probability isn't 100%; that's why you'll hear some people say, "I had no trouble" while others -- including me -- have been roundly excoriated from Day One. And there's a "pile on" phenomenon; when someone in a key position decides that a newbie is a threat and flames him or her, others will join in. This happens much less often with the NetBSD group, which is focused much more on technical excellence and hacking for the sheer joy of it than on ego and territoriality. This is the reason for NetBSD's lower profile but also for its friendliness. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 8:16: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0A8A37B6A1 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:15:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05954; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:15:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119091228.0485cbd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:15:20 -0700 To: Nick Sayer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Junkyard Wars team? In-Reply-To: <3A67EBFD.2050403@quack.kfu.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I can weld, but I long ago quit Northern California for Wyoming. May I recommend Howard Davidson (Howard.Davidson@Eng.Sun.COM)? --Brett At 12:25 AM 1/19/2001, Nick Sayer wrote: >I am considering setting up a team of Northern California FreeBSD enthusiasts to sign up to compete in Junkyard Wars (tlc.discovery.com). Especially needed are people who know how to weld. I have a great idea for our audition video, but we must hurry as the deadline looms. A team consists of 3 members, of which I would like to be one. FreeBSD experience is of no particular assistance in the Junkyard, but FreeBSD enthusiasm is a must. :-) > >Let's get Beastie on TV! > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 8:21: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 988E037B402; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06016; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:20:39 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119091720.048087b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:20:31 -0700 To: John Baldwin From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Kris Kirby In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118215247.047d8df0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:29 AM 1/19/2001, John Baldwin wrote: >Actually, that is because many people have noticed that you tend to say the >same thing over and over, and since they don't agree with you, they'd just as >soon not see the same thing that they disagree with over and over. Actually, many things are said over and over on these lists (for better or for worse). And certainly not just by Yours Truly. I think that your latter point is closer to the mark; there's a fraternity-like culture which includes elements of hazing, ganging up, pecking orders, and ego. I don't see these things as having a place in a collaborative software development effort, and think that they've prevented FreeBSD from being as effective as it could be. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 8:23:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from neo.skynet.be (neo.skynet.be [195.238.2.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E078A37B699; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.1.121] (warp-core.skynet.be [195.238.2.25]) by neo.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33F97B02; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:20:29 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010119153129.A48976@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20010119153129.A48976@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:21:48 +0100 To: Nik Clayton From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: Greywolf , Brett Glass , Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:31 PM +0000 2001/1/19, Nik Clayton wrote: > Manifestly not true. Write new documentation or help improve existing > documentation. While it may not be true in theory, in practice I saw quite a bit of the "if you can't write code then you're useless" attitude. > That's probably the fastest track to getting a commit bit as well. At this stage, in part because of the "hazing" I previously experienced, I am no longer subscribed to any of the FreeBSD mailing lists (other than -chat), and I am no longer particularly interested in getting a commit bit. I have neither the time nor the inclination to go through that process at the moment. > Having been at both BSD conventions, Usenix, and a number of other > conferences, and having met most or all of the committer base at some > point or another, I have yet to meet a committer that considers the > documentation team to be n-class citizens. Maybe the committers don't feel this way, or at least they say that they don't feel this way. However, assuming that this is true, there are still plenty of other people involved in the project (and on the mailing lists) other than the committers. I can say that the last time I looked around, there were still a lot of people on the lists saying "Use the Source, Luke!" and expecting people to at least be able to read code before being considered to be useful, or otherwise being treated as 2nd or 3rd class citizens. Maybe these people aren't committers, but it doesn't take being a committer to engage in the act of "hazing". -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 8:25:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B627C37B698 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:25:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06112; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:24:48 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092259.048d6100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:24:39 -0700 To: Neil Blakey-Milner From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010119115602.A11655@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118233228.04a5f5f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118232422.049b7a50@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118215247.047d8df0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118152351.00cb89a0@localhost> <20010118222129.B360@shale.csir.co.za> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118232422.049b7a50@localhost> <20010119115716.M11626@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118233228.04a5f5f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:56 AM 1/19/2001, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: >Part of many groups, is the person who never realises that people in the >group really don't approve of his behaviour, and _really_ don't agree >with his rhetoric, despite his numerous anonymous referrals to people >who do..... And here starts another attack in which the poster attempts to brand the subject of the pile-on as socially dysfunctional and delusional. Sad to say, you're as guilty as the rest, Neil. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 8:28: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2881E37B698 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:27:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06155; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:27:29 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092521.048e2ba0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:27:21 -0700 To: dan@langille.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200101191019.XAA06777@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> References: <20010119115602.A11655@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <4.3.2.7.2.20010118233228.04a5f5f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In other words, "take your hazing like a man." Sorry, Dan, but Neil's message was the most insidious, nasty sort of put-down. You should have the guts to condemn his behavior rather than participating in the pecking party. --Brett At 03:19 AM 1/19/2001, Dan Langille wrote: >On 19 Jan 2001, at 11:56, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > >> I know this runs the risk of starting a "Brett vs. World" pile-on, and >> it was indeed inspired in part by the behaviour that Brett describes (I >> assume in a deprecatory manner), but since we're spouting about social >> groups, entrance, hazing, and so forth... > >Brett, don't be offended. Don't reply. Don't start justifying anything. >Just take what Neil has said and digest it. For a few weeks. > >And please don't reply to me either. Thanks. > >-- >Dan Langille >pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 8:31:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from meow.osd.bsdi.com (meow.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9072737B404 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:31:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by meow.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0JGRqL83011; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:27:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119091720.048087b0@localhost> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:30:14 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19-Jan-01 Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:29 AM 1/19/2001, John Baldwin wrote: > >>Actually, that is because many people have noticed that you tend to say the >>same thing over and over, and since they don't agree with you, they'd just as >>soon not see the same thing that they disagree with over and over. > > Actually, many things are said over and over on these lists (for better or > for > worse). And certainly not just by Yours Truly. I think that your latter point > is closer to the mark; there's a fraternity-like culture which includes > elements > of hazing, ganging up, pecking orders, and ego. I don't see these things as > having a place in a collaborative software development effort, and think that > they've prevented FreeBSD from being as effective as it could be. You missed my point that this isn't FreeBSD specific however. People are inherently selfish and are always going to act in a manner that serves their self interest. The fact that people will thus be drawn towards people with similar views, etc. should not come as a surprise. As has also been noted in this thread, not everyone has the same exact views, but different people react differently to differing views. The fact is that you appear at least to be rather stubborn in your views, which is not necessarily a bad thing. However, it does have the effect of wearing down the patience of those people who disagree with you. Also, you missed that I countered that there isn't "hazing" as it were. To say that the fact that people are given commit bits because they work on stuff that is stored in the repository is akin to saying that a company "hazes" because it doesn't hire music majors for engineering jobs. Such a claim would be ludicrous. > --Brett -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 8:33:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 921BA37B69C; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06242; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:32:33 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092858.048f5d40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:32:23 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , Greywolf From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:06 AM 1/19/2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > The ping-pong match currently in progress is in regard to certain people who have apparently been around in the FreeBSD community for quite some time, but who have personalities such that many within the community consider them to be, at best eccentric, and at worst complete and total whackos that aught to be locked up. Wrong. What has happened is that certain people in the group, obsessed with power and ego, see certain people with innovative or novel ideas as a threat. They therefore attempt to brand them as whackos, and the more conformist members of the group, and/or those who think they might have something to gain by doing so, go along and join the "pile-on." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 8:42: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9566237B402; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:41:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06382; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:41:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119093437.0490ca10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:41:30 -0700 To: John Baldwin From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119091720.048087b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:30 AM 1/19/2001, John Baldwin wrote: >You missed my point that this isn't FreeBSD specific however. No, I didn't; that's why I drew the analogy to a fraternity! >People are >inherently selfish and are always going to act in a manner that serves their >self interest. The fact that people will thus be drawn towards people with >similar views, etc. should not come as a surprise. As has also been noted in >this thread, not everyone has the same exact views, but different people react >differently to differing views. The fact is that you appear at least to be >rather stubborn in your views, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Persistence is often an important virtue. If I didn't think I could contribute something to FreeBSD in particular and the BSDs in general despite the social problems, I'd be long gone! As it is, I got the BSDs a track at the O'Reilly Open Source Conference (which reminds me: they just issued their call for papers -- submit things now!) and have published many papers and articles that have drawn attention to the BSDs and their business-friendly approach to licensing. [SNIP] >Also, you missed that I countered that there isn't "hazing" as it were. To say >that the fact that people are given commit bits because they work on stuff that >is stored in the repository is akin to saying that a company "hazes" because it >doesn't hire music majors for engineering jobs. Such a claim would be >ludicrous. That's not the sort of "hazing" I'm talking about. What I *am* talking about is the constant stream of defamatory comments hurled, via the mailing lists, at those who think outside the box. And not just at me; I've seen Terry and a few others take a lot of heat as well. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 9: 0: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [208.178.101.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728FD37B69D for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:59:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from well.com (howardjp@well.com [208.178.101.2]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA05933; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:59:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by well.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11423; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:59:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:59:38 -0800 (PST) From: James Howard To: Greg Lehey Cc: opentrax@email.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: <20010118012245.D10950@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > 14 July: Bill Jolitz releases version 0.1 of 386BSD. > > At this point, BSD/386 was quite a usable system. I was > running both Interactive UNIX/386, a System V.3.2 > derivative, and BSD/386 0.3.3, and the BSD/386 was already > much more polished than Interactive. By all accounts 386BSD > was still a disaster. I once started trying to install it, > but didn't get very far. > > Apr 1993: NetBSD 0.8 came out. > > Dec 1993: FreeBSD 1.0 came out. It's hard to find a specific date, but the NetBSD/mac68k history page (http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/mac68k/history.html) says that somewhere around here students at Virginia Tech had started porting to the Mac and later merged those changes into NetBSD in time for the 0.8 release in April of 1993. Just looking at the timelines, it appears that NetBSD was always pretty independent of 386BSD, but the NetBSD history says they took cde from 386BSD for the Mac port. Obviously, this was not part of hte 386BSD development effort. Was this because Jolitz didn't care about portability? The name suggests it :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 9:14: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from apoq.skynet.be (apoq.skynet.be [195.238.2.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF25A37B401; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.1.121] (warp-core.skynet.be [195.238.2.25]) by apoq.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id D112EAE51; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:13:21 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092858.048f5d40@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092858.048f5d40@localhost> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:10:36 +0100 To: Brett Glass , Greywolf From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:32 AM -0700 2001/1/19, Brett Glass wrote: > Wrong. What has happened is that certain people in the group, obsessed with > power and ego, see certain people with innovative or novel ideas as a threat. > They therefore attempt to brand them as whackos, and the more conformist > members of the group, and/or those who think they might have >something to gain > by doing so, go along and join the "pile-on." Right, everyone who opposes or disagrees with Brett is inherently evil. I think we've heard this somewhere before. I won't make any claim as to whether or not I am "obsessed with power and ego", because I obviously would not be qualified to answer that question in the negative. However, I think I can safely say that I am not one of "the more conformist members of the group". I am certainly not "piling on". My personal reason for opposing you most of the time is that I find you an excessively annoying and tedious person to deal with, and you never seem willing to be able to actually listen and hear what other people have to say on the subject -- instead, you try to drown them out by droning on. Sadly, more often than not, this has exactly the desired effect, and drives a lot of people away from the FreeBSD project. Fortunately, there are a few more determined types that stick around anyway, although most of them seem to do so by killfile-ing everything you say and everything on any thread in which you have ever had anything to say. I recognize that you do occasionally have something useful to say, or something novel to add to the discussion. However, I find that this doesn't come anywhere close to making up for the sort of thing we typically hear from you -- your paranoid delusional ramblings, your extremely vocal opposition and personal attacks towards anyone who disagrees with you, and your cries of "poor pitiful me". And with that, I think I'm about ready to killfile you, too. I believe that I am a rather tolerant person, and I've only ever killfiled two other people in my whole life with Unix (dating back to 1984), but there's only so much from you that even I am willing to put up with. The worst of it is, in this particular case I think you have a valid point about there being a certain atmosphere of hazing with regards to the FreeBSD project -- maybe not from the committers themselves, but certainly by other people who are on the mailing lists and presumably have been on the mailing lists for some time. Sadly, this point has now gotten lost in the noise that you have generated about yourself. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 9:29:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3F2D37B402; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:29:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06991; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:29:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119101922.0485c720@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:28:54 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , Greywolf From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092858.048f5d40@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092858.048f5d40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:10 AM 1/19/2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > Right, everyone who opposes or disagrees with Brett is inherently evil. I think we've heard this somewhere before. Yes. It's a statement commonly used to brand someone you are attacking as "delusional" (as you do later in your message). [Snip] > My personal reason for opposing you most of the time is that I find you an excessively annoying and tedious person to deal with, I'm terribly sorry if you find it "annoying and tedious" that I will not sit idly by while others attack me. I think it's my right to respond. [Snip] > And with that, I think I'm about ready to killfile you, too. I believe that I am a rather tolerant person, and I've only ever killfiled two other people in my whole life with Unix (dating back to 1984), but there's only so much from you that even I am willing to put up with. Another common element of the piling-on and shunning that occurs frequently here: a dramatic declration that the attacker is adding the person being attacked to his kill file (and an implicit request to others to do likewise). > The worst of it is, in this particular case I think you have a valid point about there being a certain atmosphere of hazing with regards to the FreeBSD project -- maybe not from the committers themselves, but certainly by other people who are on the mailing lists and presumably have been on the mailing lists for some time. And yet you're not introspective enough to recognize that you're participating in it. >Sadly, this point has now gotten lost in the noise that you have generated about yourself. Funny: looking back at this thread, it looks more as if you and a few others have been generating noise about me. When I entered the conversation, I merely agreed with a previous poster that the FreeBSD community had problems with hazing and shunning. It's ironic that the exchange has become self-referential. Add me to your kill file (which, of course, you're free to do), and you'll prove that you're part of the same phenomenon. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 9:33:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guild.plethora.net (guild.plethora.net [205.166.146.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B7B837B698 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:33:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (seebs@localhost.plethora.net [127.0.0.1]) by guild.plethora.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f0JHX4n18396; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:33:04 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101191733.f0JHX4n18396@guild.plethora.net> From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:28:54 MST." <4.3.2.7.2.20010119101922.0485c720@localhost> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:32:59 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <4.3.2.7.2.20010119101922.0485c720@localhost>, Brett Glass writes: >I'm terribly sorry if you find it "annoying and tedious" that I will >not sit idly by while others attack me. I think it's my right to respond. Sure, but the way you do it will, of course, affect peoples' intentions. >Another common element of the piling-on and shunning that occurs >frequently here: a dramatic declration that the attacker is adding the >person being attacked to his kill file (and an implicit request to others >to do likewise). I see no implicit request here. I am also unsure what this "piling-on" and "shunning" is. I haven't seen any. >Funny: looking back at this thread, it looks more as if you and a few others >have been generating noise about me. When I entered the conversation, I >merely agreed with a previous poster that the FreeBSD community had problems >with hazing and shunning. It's ironic that the exchange has become >self-referential. Add me to your kill file (which, of course, you're free >to do), and you'll prove that you're part of the same phenomenon. Not necessarily; there could be other, independant, reasons to killfile you. (For instance, I might killfile you for drawing a conclusion which does not follow from the premises. ;-)) I admit, I'm mostly on the Net side, not the Free side, but I haven't seen a whole lot of "shunning" or "hazing", and indeed, I'm not sure I've ever seen anything that I'd qualify as either. I showed up out of the blue, I asked a couple of questions on a FreeBSD list, and I got useful, informative, answers that directed me to an effective solution to my problem. I see no hazing here. -s To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 9:53:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F12737B402; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:53:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA26769; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:48:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA0faGm0; Fri Jan 19 10:48:03 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA10973; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:52:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101191752.KAA10973@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:52:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), reg@FreeBSD.ORG (Jeremy Lea), kris@catonic.net (Kris Kirby), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010119120655.N11626@physics.iisc.ernet.in> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Jan 19, 2001 12:06:55 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >You mean, you think reading your rants, flames and paranoid > > >delusions *is* fun? > > > > Another fun aspect of the hazing: those doing it have a > > tendency to "pile on." > > I'm not hazing. How could I? You've been around on the > FreeBSD lists much longer than me... > I was perfectly serious, and so is everyone else who you > think is hazing you. I agree; Brett is not being hazed, and he already has membership, even though he has been threatened with being "banned" from the lists. Think "blanket party", as punishment for a members violation of the rules established by the controlling membership. -- Really, "banning" won't work, unless you are willing to shut off every open relay, anonymous remailer, and personally obtained legal account. At the point of an attempted "ban", the society would have to be drastically changed, or become so introspective that the barrier to entry would reduce new membership faster than attrition could be accounted. ...In other words, there's really no way to "ban" someone who is really determined, and willing to out-spend you, unless you are willing to cut your own throat. The Internet has no "prison" equivalent. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 10:25:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C781337B404; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:25:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07568; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:25:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119111143.049ff8a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:25:03 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: reg@FreeBSD.ORG (Jeremy Lea), kris@catonic.net (Kris Kirby), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200101191752.KAA10973@usr08.primenet.com> References: <20010119120655.N11626@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:52 AM 1/19/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >Think "blanket party", as punishment for a members violation >of the rules established by the controlling membership. I haven't encountered the term "blanket party" since I read the book Don Quixote years ago. What is a good definition of it? (I'd assumed, from context, that it involved public humiliation and/or suppression of an individual.) And what rule (or rules) set by TPTB do you think I have violated? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 10:45:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from duh.org (client102040.atl.mediaone.net [24.31.102.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5828D37B401 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:45:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.69.1.8] (xpc.int.duh.org [10.69.1.8]) by duh.org (8.11.0/8.11.0/6.0.0) with ESMTP id f0JIhG122329Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:43:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:44:19 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: Todd Vierling To: James Howard Cc: , Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: tv@duh.dynip.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, James Howard wrote: : It's hard to find a specific date, but the NetBSD/mac68k history page : (http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/mac68k/history.html) says that somewhere : around here students at Virginia Tech had started porting to the Mac and : later merged those changes into NetBSD in time for the 0.8 release in : April of 1993. The full NetBSD 0.8 release announcement was archived. You can find one copy of it at: ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/misc/release/NetBSD/NetBSD-0.8 This post from cgd is dated 19-Apr-1993. Though it isn't as formal as later NetBSD release announcements, this is probably the closest thing to a "0.8 release announcement" that exists. -- -- Todd Vierling * Wasabi NetBSD: Run with it. -- NetBSD 1.5 now available on CD-ROM -- http://www.wasabisystems.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 10:58:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE3E37B400; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:58:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA19965; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:53:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAqKaq7M; Fri Jan 19 11:53:29 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA12713; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:58:24 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101191858.LAA12713@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: greywolf@starwolf.com (Greywolf) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:58:24 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), reg@FreeBSD.ORG (Jeremy Lea), kris@catonic.net (Kris Kirby), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Greywolf" at Jan 18, 2001 11:18:39 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Beg pardon, good sirs, but is this what usually happens on the FreeBSD > lists, or is this back-and-forth merely an anomaly provided for the > amusement of the casually-included NetBSD crowd? It's Brett, bucking a society that he thinks could be more than it is ("I cry not for what man has become, but for what he could have been"). Brett is somewhat of an ideologue. > When there was a statement made about "hazing", it was made to sound > as though it covered both NetBSD and FreeBSD. The comment was actually directed at all Open Source software that exists today. In the large, it applies to all societies (look at the U.S. Immigration requirements for obtaining a "green card"; that's "hazing"). > Observing the ping-pong match in progress, I think I can safely > say that the newbies in NetBSD are treated with much less of a > hazing than they are in FreeBSD. Why this is, I'm not sure. What you are seeing here is not "hazing", so I'm pretty sure that that's not true. I occasionally examine the NetBSD list archives as part of looking at societies formed on the Internet, and there are similar examples quotable there. If there's any difference between the groups, it's probably that FreeBSD is large enough that the exercise of control using traditional methods is becoming more and more ineffective. This creates pressure to "chase off" newcomers, particularly on those who fear anarchy (even a "pure" meritocracy will have that, since there will always be disagreement on what measurements constitute figures of merit). NB: Don't take this size comparison as a commentary on relative "success"; it's not. > Regarding ego-boo, anyone who's ever contributed code is not exempt. > How many people look at something they've written or patched and > smiled as it worked? I know I do that. In the grand scheme of things, > it's insignificant -- nobody knows (or cares) that I submitted the code. > It works, and that's all that matters, and that's just fine with me, > especially considering that I'm not a brilliant coder and can't do device > drivers. Actually, it depends on peoples motivation for participating; obviously, some do it for ego. You would be surprised, though, how many people for which that is not the prime motivation. The most salient fact about participation, and what makes any Open Source project such a good laboratory for games theory and applied sociology, is that all participants are self-selected. There are some participants who are being externally incented for their participation; I would have to say that, even with the Linux "phenomenon", and all it's economically incented participants, FreeBSD is by far the most commercial of all the Open Source projects. But FreeBSD is not controlled by a primary economic motivation. Self selection is interesting, in that it establishes a seperate non-monetary economy, based on costs vs. return on investment, which dictate whether or not continued participation will occur. Brett is a nice example here; if I had to psycho-analyze him (which I don't have the credentials to do, despite having helped several people study for a Master's in Psychiatric Socialwork, and having read everything they've read), I'd say that Brett is still here because FreeBSD is the closest social organization to what he wants to have come into existance. He can agree or he can disagree, that's only my opinion right now, with the evidence at hand. > Regarding the splits: I was only present for the Net/Open split, and > I must confess I was a bit dismayed that it happened. In doing my part > to try and step in and avert the split, I received no less than several > very good pixel-lashings from parties involved and have probably succeeded > in alienating several people. So much for good intentions, but life goes > on. I've done the same thing, with regard to precluding FreeBSD splits. The fact that FreeBSD is the successor river to the 386BSD river, by virtue of the inertia of its founding members with regard to not striking out on their own until forced to do so, has been an ally. Of the groups, FreeBSD has inherited the least number of volatile elements from previous splits. Just looking at the form of the mathematical model which applies to 386BSD, FreeBSD, and NetBSD, as well as others, one could see that this was, in fact inevitable, it's a nonlinear Richardsonian competition, and it inherited a large beta value to begin with (much larger than FreeBSD's, since FreeBSD inherited the natural beta value from 386BSD). Or put another way, NetBSD inherited all the strange attractors which didn't fit with 386BSD, and it was inevitable that as the NetBSD organization crystalized, of the strange attractors it had inherited, some would exceed the damping force of an all-volunteer mutual security society. [ ... "hostile mailing lists" ... ] That's pretty much covered, though not in any great detail, I think. [ ... "Anti-SYSV sentiment" ... ] An interesting topic, but for another conversation. It actually (IMO) has more to do with social inertia and fear based on a subliminal undestanding of how strange attractors work in making flocking behaviour function. What it comes down to is that it's a high level threat to mutual security, since mutual security has its roots in the connectedness, in many people's minds. It's actually not required that one have _either_ high strength or high connectivity (reciprical altruism) to be able to damp a beta-increase induced crisis: damping is an effect of the existance of the network in the first place. My reasoning on the NetBSD/OpenBSD split was actually fairly simplified from the reality. The Open Source BSD societies are actually a particular form of a Richardson, with reduced grievances, low connectivity, and low strength for most players, with high strength reserved for a few. It's the classic Mutually Assured Destruction Between Superpowers scenario. The primary damping force is We Fear Change, in the form of defensive postures, assumed by each superpower, with regard to external threats. As long as they back down from "launch on warning" when the threat is dealt with, everything's fine. But the smaller the group, the less likely that is. When someone finally says "to hell with mutual security!" and fires a nuke, you get a schism. Linux actually went through two major similar events; the first was the Alan Cox threat, which they had to deal with, because they guy is (a) a natural leader [he was sitting on a schelling point, one of ESR's talents] and (b) he was a viable economic asset, and the second was the advanced console driver controversy, which had a large faction following [it was itself a strange attractor], which could have easily led to schism. Linus proved his political mettle by backing down on both issues, right before the schism point. To give them due credit, for a fuedal aristocracy, Linux has held up remarkably as a society. But the jury is still out on whether they will out-live cult status. -- Standing on the tracks waving a truce flag can't stop a freight train, even if it desperately wants to stop. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 11:28:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jasper.nighttide.net (jasper.nighttide.net [216.227.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F01F137B698; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:28:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (darren@localhost) by jasper.nighttide.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0JJS2B00420; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:28:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from darren@nighttide.net) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:28:02 -0500 (EST) From: Darren Henderson To: John Baldwin Cc: Subject: recognition (was: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, John Baldwin wrote: > stuff that is in the repo. One thing that would be helpful is to find ways to > reward this work similar to the ways that we reward people who submit code. > For example, a @FreeBSD.org mail address and/or homepage. Hopefully, such > would encourage peopel to do stuff like QA, which we sorely need more of. excellent idea ______________________________________________________________________ Darren Henderson darren@nighttide.net Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 11:34:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.opus.co.tt (mail.opus.co.tt [196.3.136.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B40A137B402 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:34:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from openaccess03 (unverified [196.3.136.186]) by mail.opus.co.tt (Vircom SMTPRS 4.3.183) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:34:17 -0400 Message-ID: <002601c0824d$5c42fac0$100101c8@openaccess03> From: "Dale Chulhan - Work" To: Subject: History Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:23:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01C0822B.D4600100" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C0822B.D4600100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can any one point me to ( or give ) a more or less complete history = showing where the various unixes came from. and where LINUX, Free, Net = and the other BSDs lie in these splits. A diagram would be nice. I remember seeing it some where but don't know = where. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C0822B.D4600100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can any one point me to ( or give ) a = more or less=20 complete history showing where the various unixes came from. and where = LINUX,=20 Free, Net and the other BSDs lie in these splits.
 
A diagram would be nice. I remember = seeing it some=20 where but don't know where.
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C0822B.D4600100-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 11:37:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rapier.smartspace.co.za (rapier.smartspace.co.za [66.8.25.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 44E8937B400 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:37:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 68050 invoked by uid 1001); 19 Jan 2001 19:37:18 -0000 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:37:18 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Dale Chulhan - Work Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: History Message-ID: <20010119213718.A68014@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: <002601c0824d$5c42fac0$100101c8@openaccess03> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <002601c0824d$5c42fac0$100101c8@openaccess03>; from dchulhan@uwi.tt on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 03:23:52PM -0400 Organization: Building Intelligence X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri 2001-01-19 (15:23), Dale Chulhan - Work wrote: > Can any one point me to ( or give ) a more or less complete history > showing where the various unixes came from. and where LINUX, Free, Net > and the other BSDs lie in these splits. > > A diagram would be nice. I remember seeing it some where but don't know where. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/levenez/unix/history.html Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 11:41: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B973037B401 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:40:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA07111; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:37:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAO3aaWn; Fri Jan 19 12:37:48 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA13791; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:40:24 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101191940.MAA13791@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Brett "attacks" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:40:24 +0000 (GMT) Cc: nbm@mithrandr.moria.org (Neil Blakey-Milner), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092259.048d6100@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Jan 19, 2001 09:24:39 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Part of many groups, is the person who never realises that people in the > >group really don't approve of his behaviour, and _really_ don't agree > >with his rhetoric, despite his numerous anonymous referrals to people > >who do..... > > And here starts another attack in which the poster attempts to brand > the subject of the pile-on as socially dysfunctional and delusional. Technically, it's an analysis, not an attack, even if you disagree with it. It does brand you as disfunctional, in the context of the FreeBSD social organization, but, in fact, as you must admit, it's true that you do not function as a member of that society in a way that the society would have you function. That's not a criticism, and it's not a bad thing to be so branded, in my opinion. People forget their heros and cannonize their misfits, when histories are written. IMO, the "and delusional" part was you using the jingoistic technique of "tarring with the same brush", also called "guilt by association" or "sympathetic magic". Also IMO, the parting shot you made was accusatory, and really uncalled for in context, unless it was intended as a rhetorical technique to ensure that only the "heavies" stayed involved in the dialogue; in any case, it's really not a success strategy: it made you appear unnecessarily spiteful. The point is that any society is based on economic principles; even forests or coral reefs are based on economies, even if you can't see them without years of study. Any society will require that you pay in the coin of the realm for what you propose to expend in the way of its resources. I suggest you find something the society values, and offer it as a "package deal", along with the other stuff which it doesn't value (even if you think it should, or even if you are proven epistimologically correct, and there is a quintisenntial and elemental value to the other stuff that it truly _should_ value as a matter of enlightened self-interest). Or to put it another way, in the words of an immortal, if currently (and wrongly, IMO) underappreciated, philosopher: "A spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down" Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 13: 9:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0228737B400; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA05228; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:06:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA2saifk; Fri Jan 19 14:06:23 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA15735; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:08:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101192108.OAA15735@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:08:58 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), reg@FreeBSD.ORG (Jeremy Lea), kris@catonic.net (Kris Kirby), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119111143.049ff8a0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Jan 19, 2001 11:25:03 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Think "blanket party", as punishment for a members violation > >of the rules established by the controlling membership. > > I haven't encountered the term "blanket party" since I read > the book Don Quixote years ago. What is a good definition of > it? (I'd assumed, from context, that it involved public > humiliation and/or suppression of an individual.) Supression of an individual. The most common modern occurance of "blanket party" behaviour occurs in the military. It is a common psychological technique in team-building in the military to make the authority figure (a drill sergent, in the "boot camp" phase of training), the object of antipathy, in an attempt to create a mutual enemy that's non-theoretical for the others to band against. The military can't be effective on pure idealism, moreso if it is involuntary for any reason. A common technique for punishment, if individual punishment (e.g. pushups, marches with heavy packs, and so on) do not cause a person to conform, is to punish the subgroup on behalf of the persons transgression, leaving it to the subgroup to correct the persons behaviour. It's also common that this occurs naturally, as a result of an individual transgression, for which the individual is not willing to accept the consequences. This happens, since it's also an offence against the team to betray the transgressor to the teams common enemy. Knowing this is part of why the military concentrates on requiting younger people who have not had psychological training. It's also why the military has such profound reactions to attempts by the larger society to change it to make it "more fair" or "more representitive of society". The stage set, a "blanket party" is where several members act, anonymously if there is official consequences threatened for such activity, with the sanction of the group. It should be noted that officialdom is well aware of the paractice, and tacitly encourages it as a behaviour modification technique, which they themselves are prohibited from employing. First, the participants throw a blanket over the person, usually late at night, in their bunk, while they are asleep, to prevent identification and official sanction of individuals. Then, they take the person, and beat them non-lethally, usually with socks weighted by filling them with some material. Then they leave the person where they were beaten (usually a bathroom, as that's the only private area in a military barracks, and it aids the pretense that other members of the group not actually engaged in the activity "saw nothing"). The official response is usually some token punishment on the group, which generally fits in as an unannounced training event, the type of which generally occur periodically anyway. If the problem persists, the person who is the target is usually thrown out of the group (discharged from the military); not an option for the Internet, or we'd have discharged the SPAM'mers a long time ago. The technology was simply not built with the idea of it being a basis for social evolution. This is actually part of what makes it so interesting to study, since non-virtual societies are capable of effective removal opf transgressing members, either temporarily or permanently. A "FreeBSD Blanket Party" includes threats of being banned, kill-filed (virtually banned by a powerful subset), and of what Brett calls "piling on". Brett actually tends to make this a lot easier by providing inflamatory rhetoric based on his history, which the participants can sieze on to drub him with, while ignoring his more threatening arguments entirely, making it about Brett's rhetoric, and not the issues. I've pointed this out to him a couple of times; I'm not sure if he cooperates involuntarily, or if he has a martyr complex that is being served by the behaviour. > And what > rule (or rules) set by TPTB do you think I have violated? Brett is more vocal about social reform in the FreeBSD society than is non-self-defeating in scope. "TPTB" fear social reform, as it can (and will, if they are not among the initiators) erode their power base. For example, in the recent core-team to committer accountability reform, a number of previous core team members were demoted from their control of power: FreeBSD is becoming more mature. Technically, FreeBSD is a stage 2 "cult", on the cusp of achieving legitimacy as a "religion" (I'll keep that analogy, since it's as apt as any). It's actually the first Open Source project that I'm aware of to reach this stage (it is at least the most visible to do so), and that makes it a very interesting subject of study. As historical comparison, many early disputes were handled by one of the parties involved hacking the servers involved, and removing the accounts, commit priviledges, etc., of the other party to the dispute. It's a truism that the drive to sieze power is ego-based, and so in any society where there isn't an effective negative feedback mechanism, ego will sieze the reins of power. This is not the distopian pronouncement that it seems that it might first appear, however. Just because you are driven by ego does not mean that you are incapable of good governance. But the institution of a feedback mechanism of the scope of the election of core team members by committers on a periodic basis is unprecedented in a virtual society. The closest approximation to an event of this magnitude would be the addition of partially effective moderation facilities to Usenet, and even so, it takes an act of "The Usenet Cabal" to remove a moderator. When I respond to Brett, I generally ignore his rhetoric, and try to concentrate on the issues, by paring off the rhetoric; I also use techniques, such as removing attribution, so that the chain has to be followed to recover it. I'm not destroying information when I do this, I'm just destroying bias linkages. I've been chewed out a number of times for doing this, by people who prefer to keep those linkages intact. Call me a closet anarchist, but you will notice that I am pretty balanced in the amount of times I agree vs. disagree with the parties involved, when I do this. If I had to state what I think are the interesting points of Brett's case for him, I'd say off the cuff that they were: o The society should value non-technical contributors, to the point of granting them full citizenship, and tolerating them as it does any current citizen. I agree with this one. I think that technical writing classes should use FreeBSD as a target, to permit a uniform performance evaluation field for students, as an example of mutual benefit to both parties. o The society is intolerant of outside pressure. I agree, but I disagree that this is bad. The economy involved uses small scale costs/payments. Unlike a "real world" software developement effort, people are not being paid "here" as much as they would be "out there" to work with people they dislike. The economics of tolerance are definitely different. o The "core team" concept is detrimental to the project. I agree with this, but less than I did. Now that an election process exists, it's much less dangerous to the long term survival of the society; they are no longer a "star chamber", since they are answerable. If I had to characterize the structure at all, I'd say that it's an artifact of a non-distributed source control system. Consider the idea of a source control system that could operatbased on a "flood-fill" basis, where you could inject changes at peering points. Right now, there is a "one true" source tree, which makes it vulnerable to outside agencies, like tactical nukes, star chambers, and lawyers. o The society should quit picking on Brett or people like him which are attempting to benefit the society. Well, there's a certain amount of herd-animal level of intelligence to the society itself here, so that might be a somewhat valid criticism. But to say that it is aggregiously and counciously, with malice aforethought, targeting these people is to take it too personally. It's a machine, even if a near-biologically complex one. If you are feeling "picked upon", you are probably attaching a hell of a lot more importance to yourself than the society is (my two cents). o The core team is the elected leadership, it should _lead_. I agree with this one, too. I'd like to see architectural roadmaps, policy statements, meeting minutes, and other things coming from it. Even if they end up being wrong, in the long run, it's better to point to a goal; it won't make you any less of a leader, if the goal is never achieved. Right now, they appear to be paralyzed by the idea that "it's a volunteer organization, so it has no steering wheel". That's not the point. A leadership must galvanize people into action. The galvanization, not the eventual action taken, is the purvue of a leader. All this may be wrong, but if so, then a diferent crime, one of failure to communicate these things, exists. A good start might be to have a "core team" mailing list, and to make its archives completely public and keept up to date. Non-core user postings would be sent to the core team member list, and could result in core team discussion, which would then be public record. I'd probably add that limiting voting to "commiters" is probably too narrow, but without a better definition of "citizenship" that isn't vulnerable to luddistic attack by external agencies, it's as good a ruler as any, for now. A society _should_ protect itself: there are other societies in this same competition domain. I think that this will take care of itself, if the first point is addressed. In any case, I think social reform is interesting, since we are now evolving completely new societies, the likes of which have not existed before; you have to admit this, even if you think the only difference in the medium is that it has the enforced egalitarianism of a lack of enforced removal from self-selection (e.g. prisons, exile, or the death penalty). It is literally impossible to kick someone out, at least without an appeal to a real-world method. FreeBSD as a society would probably have reached equilibrium as a much less complex entity, had it been possible to send all our Brett's to Coventry or Australia or the block. I'm quite happy that it hasn't. I'm also quite happy that the evolutionary pressures, of which Brett is only a tiny example, continue to force FreeBSD away from equilibrium, and therefore stagnation. I'm rather ecstatic that I able to watch. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 13:35:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2A7F37B401 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:35:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA12243; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:23:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAgTayfw; Fri Jan 19 14:21:34 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16280; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:26:20 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200101192126.OAA16280@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: hungarian notation To: brad.knowles@skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:26:20 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Jan 19, 2001 12:30:49 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I think the _ONE_ valid thing to come out of ANSI prototypes > > (other than making it the programmers job to do the work that > > belongs in the linker; linker writers are lazy... but I digress) > > is that you don't need this BS, since the compiler will whine at > > you when you have type clashes anyway. > > I understand that the compiler should bitch at you if you get > this wrong, but IMO it is better if the programmer gets it right to > begin with. If you raise a child with crutches, it will never be able to run without them. > Hungarian notation is not a sufficient feature to guarantee that > this will happen, but it is a stylistic aid that programers can use > that may help them more often get it right the first time, and > towards that end I believe that it is a good idea. The problem I have with it is that it obfuscates the meaning of symbol names. Consider that I pack and unpack structures to and from wire format, and I want my symbol names to reflect the contents, not their current representational geometry, when I do this. If we are going to do symbol decoration, it actually makes more sense to discard prototypes entirely, even without the linker being fixed, and then use GCC C++ style decoration, which would let us know the return type, number of arguments, and argument types. If you want to get technical, a good IDE editor should make the notation unnecessary, even if you did nothing else. IMO, conventional clues are problematic in the extreme, since the first time your student is thrown at a legacy code base without the notation, it will be as if they have been given a lobotomy. The overwhelming number of students find their first employment in maintenance, since their employer needs to have them establish trust before they get to move on to original works. So you might have an argument for a coding style policy for a given company (in fact, it makes my employee less useful to my rivals!), but for teaching, it's a losing proposition. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 13:45:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from starwolf.com (starwolf.com [208.184.74.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C50A37B402; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:45:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from starwolf (greywolf@starwolf [208.184.74.2]) by starwolf.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f0JLi0O02545; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:44:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:43:56 -0800 (PST) From: Greywolf To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: <200101191858.LAA12713@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: [lots of ways to apply formulae to real life] Terry, you've gotta be the only one to whom I've ever spoken who can look at organic behaviour and its random bits and apply mathematical/physical formulae and descriptions to events that defy formulae and descriptions! :-) --*greywolf; -- NetBSD, Net Profit. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 15:10:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CD7037B400; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:10:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02071; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:07:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.mozie.org) Message-Id: <200101192307.PAA02071@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:07:22 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: reg@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010118222129.B360@shale.csir.co.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18 Jan, Jeremy Lea wrote: > Hi, > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 09:56:34PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >> As for the kill files: this is part of the hazing/shunning that >> was alluded to in earlier messages in this thread. It's a power >> game. > > ROTFL... > > Brett, I think you need to lighten your view of the world. The kill > files are there because people do this for fun, and reading a your > rants, flames and paranoid delusions just isn't fun! > I'm not sure. I always enjoy reading my own paranoid delusions. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 15:22:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6E937B401; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02084; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:19:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.mozie.org) Message-Id: <200101192319.PAA02084@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:19:50 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: nik@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010119153129.A48976@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Jan, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 01:06:49PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: >> Speaking as a relative newcomer to FreeBSD, I definitely feel >> that there is a certain amount of hazing that goes on. If you want >> to contribute to the project, you're expected to write code. > > Manifestly not true. Write new documentation or help improve existing > documentation. > > That's probably the fastest track to getting a commit bit as well. > I have to disagree Nik. As you know, I've been trying to get my bits in, but without much success. To date, my best strategy has been to document the protractedly behaviour that happens when one use PR. As a recent example, which you might be aware of, I was told my addition to a man page would be mis-information. The reviewer was chimed on by a person that revels in correcting errors I make. This, so called "mis-information", was in fact documented in the man page, extended in a later version and repeated in the source. The reviewer later agreed with me, scheduled a review, I expect favorable outcoume. None the less, if I was not able to "read the code", I believe my changes would have been less than even. Best Regards, Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 15:37: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDC9137B400; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02094; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:25:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.mozie.org) Message-Id: <200101192325.PAA02094@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:25:08 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: brett@lariat.org Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, greywolf@starwolf.com, reg@FreeBSD.ORG, kris@catonic.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119090519.00e2ff00@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Jan, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:18 AM 1/19/2001, Greywolf wrote: > >>Beg pardon, good sirs, but is this what usually happens on the FreeBSD >>lists, or is this back-and-forth merely an anomaly provided for the >>amusement of the casually-included NetBSD crowd? >> >>When there was a statement made about "hazing", it was made to sound >>as though it covered both NetBSD and FreeBSD. Observing the ping-pong >>match in progress, I think I can safely say that the newbies in NetBSD >>are treated with much less of a hazing than they are in FreeBSD. Why >>this is, I'm not sure. > > I think that this is because the NetBSD crowd, overall, is far more laid > back than the FreeBSD crowd. When one enters a group of FreeBSDers, there's > a fairly good chance that one will bump up against one big ego or another. > The probability isn't 100%; that's why you'll hear some people say, "I > had no trouble" while others -- including me -- have been roundly excoriated > from Day One. And there's a "pile on" phenomenon; when someone in a key > position decides that a newbie is a threat and flames him or her, others will > join in. > I have to agree, at least for the sake of Terry's paper. There will be large denials of this, but I experience this "pile on" behaviour myself, sometime because of my own manner-of-being. None the less, the behaviour is experience and almost positive Terry has an equation for this. :-) Best Regards, Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 15:39:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from meow.osd.bsdi.com (meow.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B18F037B401; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:39:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by meow.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0JNb3L90655; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:37:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200101192319.PAA02084@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:39:30 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, nik@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ cc's trimeed, no need to spam NetBSD with this :) ] On 19-Jan-01 opentrax@email.com wrote: > > > On 19 Jan, Nik Clayton wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 01:06:49PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: >>> Speaking as a relative newcomer to FreeBSD, I definitely feel >>> that there is a certain amount of hazing that goes on. If you want >>> to contribute to the project, you're expected to write code. >> >> Manifestly not true. Write new documentation or help improve existing >> documentation. >> >> That's probably the fastest track to getting a commit bit as well. >> > I have to disagree Nik. Actually JMJ, I originally got my commit bit to do documentation stuff by converting the Committer's Guide from plain text to DocBook with appropriate markup. I then meandered my way over into the src/ tree where I now spend my time engaged in SMP hacking. I still like to do docs, I've written several kernel manpages and FAQ entries. The Documentation Project is certainly an easy way to get involved with the project. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 15:42: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA5A37B401 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:41:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08766; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:41:09 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:41:09 -0700 (MST) From: John Galt Reply-To: To: Brett Glass Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , Rahul Siddharthan , Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092259.048d6100@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I actually have some responsibility in this, so I guess that all of this innuendo about me and other shit I've been seeing out of Brett's mouth should be clarified. I'm the one who mentioned the killfile in relation th Brett. It looked to me as if Jordan was about to do something unwise, and that was to dump Brett off the lists because Brett was being an asshole. I posted a .procmailrc recipe that (in retrospect it wouldn't have done much: Brett has morphing addresses) would lose the official flavor of banning Brett, yet still keep sanity. I did not actually implement the recipe in my own case, figuring that there's always the delete key in case of real annoyance. I have watched as Brett has lambasted me repeatedly for my public posting of said recipe, and said nothing, as there is nothing really to say in this case. I will freely admit that my action wasn't the most netiquette-friendly, but in my mind it beat the alternative by a long shot. Apparently Brett doesn't think so. He is more than welcome to his ideas, but he is NOT welcome to his implication that there was ANY official component to my posting of the recipe. The only thing I have to do with the FreeBSD project is I use it's product about 1/3 of the time (I tri-boot linux, win, and FBSD). I find it laughable that Brett seems to think that >I< am more a part of FreeBSD than he is, since I've only really been using FreeBSD for the better part of 2 years. Brett, if you really want to throw innuendo around, do so with the full knowlege that the person you're playing with WILL respond in kind from this day forward, and I really doubt that you want my notice in this case. On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Brett Glass wrote: >At 02:56 AM 1/19/2001, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > >>Part of many groups, is the person who never realises that people in the >>group really don't approve of his behaviour, and _really_ don't agree >>with his rhetoric, despite his numerous anonymous referrals to people >>who do..... > >And here starts another attack in which the poster attempts to brand >the subject of the pile-on as socially dysfunctional and delusional. > >Sad to say, you're as guilty as the rest, Neil. > >--Brett > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Armageddon means never having to say you're sorry. Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 15:44:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D05D37B401 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:43:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08784; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:43:47 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:43:46 -0700 (MST) From: John Galt Reply-To: To: Brett Glass Cc: , Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092521.048e2ba0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Brett Glass wrote: >In other words, "take your hazing like a man." I find it hard to believe that Dan'd say that as that implies that A) you're sapient (ie a member of the human race), and B) you could possibly take anything like a man instead of the whimpering little cur you are. >Sorry, Dan, but Neil's message was the most insidious, nasty sort >of put-down. You should have the guts to condemn his behavior >rather than participating in the pecking party. You ain't seen nothing yet. >--Brett > >At 03:19 AM 1/19/2001, Dan Langille wrote: > >>On 19 Jan 2001, at 11:56, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: >> >>> I know this runs the risk of starting a "Brett vs. World" pile-on, and >>> it was indeed inspired in part by the behaviour that Brett describes (I >>> assume in a deprecatory manner), but since we're spouting about social >>> groups, entrance, hazing, and so forth... >> >>Brett, don't be offended. Don't reply. Don't start justifying anything. >>Just take what Neil has said and digest it. For a few weeks. >> >>And please don't reply to me either. Thanks. >> >>-- >>Dan Langille >>pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Armageddon means never having to say you're sorry. Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 15:45:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6C037B404 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:45:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0JNmYo13448; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:48:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:48:34 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Dale Chulhan - Work Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: History Message-ID: <20010119154834.A13412@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <002601c0824d$5c42fac0$100101c8@openaccess03> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <002601c0824d$5c42fac0$100101c8@openaccess03>; from dchulhan@uwi.tt on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 03:23:52PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 03:23:52PM -0400, Dale Chulhan - Work wrote: > Can any one point me to ( or give ) a more or less complete history showi= ng where the various unixes came from. and where LINUX, Free, Net and the o= ther BSDs lie in these splits. >=20 > A diagram would be nice. I remember seeing it some where but don't know w= here. /usr/share/misc/bsd-family-tree Kris --=20 NOTE: To fetch an updated copy of my GPG key which has not expired, finger kris@FreeBSD.org --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6aNJRWry0BWjoQKURAiNqAKDBXvZtASUwZJ2GjatzAjycBysOnACdEgSd gqT2Gz+GrNqy+Ugc4FGfgMs= =42Vn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 15:47:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E936137B401; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:47:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02107; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:32:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.mozie.org) Message-Id: <200101192332.PAA02107@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:32:09 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: brett@lariat.org Cc: brad.knowles@skynet.be, greywolf@starwolf.com, reg@FreeBSD.ORG, kris@catonic.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119101922.0485c720@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Jan, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:10 AM 1/19/2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > >>...[Trimmed]... > >>Sadly, this point has now gotten lost in the noise that you have generated about yourself. > > Funny: looking back at this thread, it looks more as if you and a few others > have been generating noise about me. When I entered the conversation, I > merely agreed with a previous poster that the FreeBSD community had problems > with hazing and shunning. It's ironic that the exchange has become > self-referential. Add me to your kill file (which, of course, you're free > to do), and you'll prove that you're part of the same phenomenon. > At the risk of hazing :-), I must agree with Brett at this point. I'm been away for a few days and now this thread has gottten silly. Next thing you know it will be a vi vs. emacs discussion. ;-> Best Regards, Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 15:47:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2384337B404; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:47:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08975; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:47:08 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:47:08 -0700 (MST) From: John Galt Reply-To: To: Brett Glass Cc: Brad Knowles , Greywolf , Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , , Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092858.048f5d40@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Brett Glass wrote: >At 05:06 AM 1/19/2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > >> The ping-pong match currently in progress is in regard to certain people who have apparently been around in the FreeBSD community for quite some time, but who have personalities such that many within the community consider them to be, at best eccentric, and at worst complete and total whackos that aught to be locked up. > >Wrong. What has happened is that certain people in the group, obsessed with >power and ego, see certain people with innovative or novel ideas as a threat. The only obsessive I see around here is you. I also fail to see the innovation you show. Behavior such as yours is commonly known to every one who has seen a child bluster until they realize that they aren't going to get away with it this time. >They therefore attempt to brand them as whackos, and the more conformist We really don't need much help branding you as a whacko: you do a DAMN fine job of it yourself. >members of the group, and/or those who think they might have something to gain >by doing so, go along and join the "pile-on." Again, you ain't seen nothing yet. >--Brett > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Armageddon means never having to say you're sorry. Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 15:51:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5662737B400 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:51:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11404; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:50:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119164526.04966c80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:50:48 -0700 To: From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092259.048d6100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is truly sad. In the message from "John Galt," we see him resorting to both falsehoods (which don't bear repeating; suffice it to say that he hasn't said anything significant that ISN'T false) and veiled threats. It is this is the sort of person -- not I -- who deserves to be relegated to the "kill file." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 16:12:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FD5837B401 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:12:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11626; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:11:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119165745.04994810@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:11:36 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Brett "attacks" Cc: nbm@mithrandr.moria.org (Neil Blakey-Milner), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200101191940.MAA13791@usr08.primenet.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092259.048d6100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:40 PM 1/19/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >It does brand you as disfunctional, in the context of the FreeBSD >social organization, but, in fact, as you must admit, it's true >that you do not function as a member of that society in a way that >the society would have you function. I don't know.... While the "society" may have something to do with it too, I think that most of the animosity I encounter seems to happen on a personal level. Folks who feel that their personal "territory" has been invaded react by trying to persuade the group to turn on the "intruder." (The usual way in which this is done is to start an e-mail flame war which creates annoyance by clogging folks' inboxes; the blame for the flood of messages is then laid upon that person.) If anything, it seems as if the "societal" mechanisms which serve to keep order on the lists are being harnessed in more personal vendettas. It may be true that I violate some unwritten rules of the "society" as well, but I don't think that I do this much more than, say, you do. In fact, I suspect that if you were not one of the acknowledged "fathers" of FreeBSD (and, in fact, all of the collaboratively developed BSDs), you might be subject to similar ill treatment. After all, we do seem to agree a great deal of the time on a wide variety of issues. This could be (probably is!) an example of the benefits of "contributing in the coin of the realm" as you suggest below. >That's not a criticism, and it's not a bad thing to be so branded, >in my opinion. People forget their heros and cannonize their >misfits, when histories are written. So I'm doomed to be a legendary misfit sometime after I'm long gone? I guess that's a minor consolation after all the venom I seem to be seeing here. >IMO, the "and delusional" part was you using the jingoistic technique >of "tarring with the same brush", also called "guilt by association" >or "sympathetic magic". > >Also IMO, the parting shot you made was accusatory, and really >uncalled for in context, unless it was intended as a rhetorical >technique to ensure that only the "heavies" stayed involved in the >dialogue; in any case, it's really not a success strategy: it >made you appear unnecessarily spiteful. I'm not spiteful.... If anything, I'm perplexed at the spite that seems to be shown by others. If I came across as spiteful, it certainly wasn't intentional. >The point is that any society is based on economic principles; >even forests or coral reefs are based on economies, even if you >can't see them without years of study. > >Any society will require that you pay in the coin of the realm for >what you propose to expend in the way of its resources. > >I suggest you find something the society values, and offer it as >a "package deal", along with the other stuff which it doesn't >value (even if you think it should, or even if you are proven >epistimologically correct, and there is a quintisenntial and >elemental value to the other stuff that it truly _should_ value >as a matter of enlightened self-interest). I'm actually working on something like that right now -- I can tell you exactly what in private e-mail. I was hoping to have it ready for LinuxWorld, but due to unexpected events that are consuming a fair portion of my time and energy, I'm now shooting for the O'Reilly Open Source Convention. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 16:27:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reiters.org (reiters.org [64.40.73.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C7C37B400 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:27:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by reiters.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 067CDD625; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:27:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:27:27 -0600 From: Dennis Reiter To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett "attacks" Message-ID: <20010119182727.X32853@reiters.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092259.048d6100@localhost> <200101191940.MAA13791@usr08.primenet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010119165745.04994810@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119165745.04994810@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 05:11:36PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I first parsed the subject as "When Brett attacks" and thought maybe there was a Fox special on tonight. Hmm, I have an idea for a Project money-maker... Quoting Brett Glass (brett@lariat.org): > At 12:40 PM 1/19/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > -- Denny Reiter | denny@reiters.org Madison River Communications | reiterd@madisonriver.net www.scapegoats.org "'Faith' means not _wanting_ to know what is true." -- Nietzshe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 16:33:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907BC37B400 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:32:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0K0a6L14326; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:36:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:36:06 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Message-ID: <20010119163606.B14173@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <20010119153129.A48976@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RASg3xLB4tUQ4RcS" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 05:21:48PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --RASg3xLB4tUQ4RcS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 05:21:48PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 3:31 PM +0000 2001/1/19, Nik Clayton wrote: >=20 > > Manifestly not true. Write new documentation or help improve existing > > documentation. >=20 > While it may not be true in theory, in practice I saw quite a bit=20 > of the "if you can't write code then you're useless" attitude. s/write code/contribute/ That's all it is, and if you think about it, it's basically a truism. Kris --RASg3xLB4tUQ4RcS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6aN12Wry0BWjoQKURAgKZAKCb81R61jfMhwmujLyWzHQil45YbACg2SxI 4hGgMhupYEFqldvLBACagoc= =+Y5u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RASg3xLB4tUQ4RcS-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 16:36:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from toad.rmkhome.com (toad.rmkhome.com [216.17.154.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 251C037B401; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:36:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rmk@localhost) by toad.rmkhome.com (8.11.0.Beta1/8.11.0.Beta1) id f0K0Yl021436; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:34:47 -0700 (MST) From: Rick Kelly Message-Id: <200101200034.f0K0Yl021436@toad.rmkhome.com> Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: <200101192332.PAA02107@spammie.svbug.com> from "opentrax@email.com" at "Jan 19, 2001 03:32:09 pm" To: opentrax@email.com Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:34:47 -0700 (MST) Cc: brett@lariat.org, brad.knowles@skynet.be, greywolf@starwolf.com, reg@FreeBSD.ORG, kris@catonic.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Reply-To: rmk@rmkhome.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL71 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org opentrax@email.com said: >Next thing you know it will be a vi vs. emacs discussion. ;-> I used to work with a guy who started hacking on UNIX sometime back in the mid-seventies. All the way up until 1990 he used ed. Nothing but ed. He never thought about using any other editor. In 1990 we convinced him to try vi. He thought it was great! Imagine, a full screen editor... -- Rick Kelly rmk@rmkhome.com www.rmkhome.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 16:48:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns3.tstt.net.tt (ns3.tstt.net.tt [196.3.132.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 430E137B402 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from uwi.tt (cuscon4684.tstt.net.tt [209.94.221.190]) by ns3.tstt.net.tt (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f0K0m4r459842 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:48:04 -0400 Message-ID: <3A68E042.4ABF4962@uwi.tt> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:48:03 -0400 From: Dale Chulhan - Home Organization: COSTAATT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: _FreeBSD-Chat Subject: Creative Open Source Drivers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://opensource.creative.com/ do you think that creative will have some of the *bsd hackers put some of their stuff there? -- ************* You need only 2 tools: WD-40 and Duct tape. If its supposed to move and it dosen't, use WD-40, If it moves and it not supposed to, use the tape. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 18:15:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F5E37B400; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:15:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA14793; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:15:10 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:15:10 -0700 (MST) From: John Galt Reply-To: To: Brett Glass Cc: Brad Knowles , Greywolf , Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , , Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119101922.0485c720@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Brett Glass wrote: >At 10:10 AM 1/19/2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > >> Right, everyone who opposes or disagrees with Brett is inherently evil. I think we've heard this somewhere before. > >Yes. It's a statement commonly used to brand someone you are attacking >as "delusional" (as you do later in your message). Well, what's sauce for the goose... >[Snip] > >> My personal reason for opposing you most of the time is that I find you an excessively annoying and tedious person to deal with, > >I'm terribly sorry if you find it "annoying and tedious" that I will >not sit idly by while others attack me. I think it's my right to respond. YOU attacked ME, and I only responded after a couple of months of allowing you unhindered rein to lie, cheat, and steal, so yes, >I< DO expect you to shut up and not respond. >[Snip] > >> And with that, I think I'm about ready to killfile you, too. I believe that I am a rather tolerant person, and I've only ever killfiled two other people in my whole life with Unix (dating back to 1984), but there's only so much from you that even I am willing to put up with. > >Another common element of the piling-on and shunning that occurs >frequently here: a dramatic declration that the attacker is adding the >person being attacked to his kill file (and an implicit request to others >to do likewise). Funny, the only thing that I see resembling a pile around here is you, you steaming pile of maggot-ridden faeces. >> The worst of it is, in this particular case I think you have a valid point about there being a certain atmosphere of hazing with regards to the FreeBSD project -- maybe not from the committers themselves, but certainly by other people who are on the mailing lists and presumably have been on the mailing lists for some time. > >And yet you're not introspective enough to recognize that you're >participating in it. Perhaps he is, perhaps I am, but I can pretty much guarantee he and I have nothing in common except the fact that both of us despise you. >>Sadly, this point has now gotten lost in the noise that you have generated about yourself. > >Funny: looking back at this thread, it looks more as if you and a few others >have been generating noise about me. When I entered the conversation, I >merely agreed with a previous poster that the FreeBSD community had problems >with hazing and shunning. It's ironic that the exchange has become >self-referential. Add me to your kill file (which, of course, you're free >to do), and you'll prove that you're part of the same phenomenon. The noise generated about you is mostly due to your own actions. You made the bed, and I hope that you like being adopted. I for one will NOT shun you: I have better things to do with you, like adopt you as my own personal flamebait. >--Brett > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Who is John Galt? Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft product. -- Ferenc Mantfeld To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 18:20:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE8337B400; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:20:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA14970; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:19:58 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:19:58 -0700 (MST) From: John Galt Reply-To: To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , Rahul Siddharthan , Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119111143.049ff8a0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Brett Glass wrote: >At 10:52 AM 1/19/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > >>Think "blanket party", as punishment for a members violation >>of the rules established by the controlling membership. > >I haven't encountered the term "blanket party" since I read >the book Don Quixote years ago. What is a good definition of It's an old .mil term: it means that when a platoon is tired of taking the punishment for one soldier's actions, the platoon eventually picks one night and has a half dozen people trap the victim under their blankets whille the rest of the platoon beats the tar out of said individual: see "full metal jacket" for a depiction of one. >it? (I'd assumed, from context, that it involved public >humiliation and/or suppression of an individual.) And what >rule (or rules) set by TPTB do you think I have violated? The unwritten rule of not pissing off people like me. >--Brett > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Who is John Galt? Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft product. -- Ferenc Mantfeld To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 18:23:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pc1.whooppee.com (unknown [209.172.73.118]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A878F37B400; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by pc1.whooppee.com (8.11.1/8.11.0) id f0K2Mk326388; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:22:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:22:46 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Goyette Reply-To: paul@whooppee.com To: John Galt Cc: Brett Glass , Brad Knowles , Greywolf , Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Secure: Never MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can we please remove the netbsd-advocacy list from any continuation of this thread? We don't need this, and it definitely is not in any way promoting or advocating the use of NetBSD, other than possibly sending some FreeBSD folks our way. On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, John Galt wrote: > On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > >At 10:10 AM 1/19/2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > > > >> Right, everyone who opposes or disagrees with Brett is inherently evil. I think we've heard this somewhere before. > > > >Yes. It's a statement commonly used to brand someone you are attacking > >as "delusional" (as you do later in your message). > > Well, what's sauce for the goose... > > > >[Snip] > > > >> My personal reason for opposing you most of the time is that I find you an excessively annoying and tedious person to deal with, > > > >I'm terribly sorry if you find it "annoying and tedious" that I will > >not sit idly by while others attack me. I think it's my right to respond. > > YOU attacked ME, and I only responded after a couple of months of allowing > you unhindered rein to lie, cheat, and steal, so yes, >I< DO expect you to > shut up and not respond. > > >[Snip] > > > >> And with that, I think I'm about ready to killfile you, too. I believe that I am a rather tolerant person, and I've only ever killfiled two other people in my whole life with Unix (dating back to 1984), but there's only so much from you that even I am willing to put up with. > > > >Another common element of the piling-on and shunning that occurs > >frequently here: a dramatic declration that the attacker is adding the > >person being attacked to his kill file (and an implicit request to others > >to do likewise). > > Funny, the only thing that I see resembling a pile around here is you, you > steaming pile of maggot-ridden faeces. > > > >> The worst of it is, in this particular case I think you have a valid point about there being a certain atmosphere of hazing with regards to the FreeBSD project -- maybe not from the committers themselves, but certainly by other people who are on the mailing lists and presumably have been on the mailing lists for some time. > > > >And yet you're not introspective enough to recognize that you're > >participating in it. > > Perhaps he is, perhaps I am, but I can pretty much guarantee he and I have > nothing in common except the fact that both of us despise you. > > >>Sadly, this point has now gotten lost in the noise that you have generated about yourself. > > > >Funny: looking back at this thread, it looks more as if you and a few others > >have been generating noise about me. When I entered the conversation, I > >merely agreed with a previous poster that the FreeBSD community had problems > >with hazing and shunning. It's ironic that the exchange has become > >self-referential. Add me to your kill file (which, of course, you're free > >to do), and you'll prove that you're part of the same phenomenon. > > The noise generated about you is mostly due to your own actions. You made > the bed, and I hope that you like being adopted. I for one will NOT shun > you: I have better things to do with you, like adopt you as my own > personal flamebait. > > > >--Brett > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > -- > Who is John Galt? > > Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft product. > -- Ferenc Mantfeld > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Paul Goyette | PGP DSS Key fingerprint: | E-mail addresses: | | Network Engineer, | BCD7 5301 9513 58A6 0DBC | paul@whooppee.com | | Unix hacker, | 91EB ADB1 A280 3B79 9221 | pgoyette@juniper.net | | & World Cruiser | | paul@mv-aftereight.com | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 18:42:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C62437B401 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:42:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.15 #3) id 14Jnyl-0000pb-00; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 02:42:11 +0000 Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 02:42:10 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Message-ID: <20010120024210.J706@hand.dotat.at> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119111143.049ff8a0@localhost> <200101192108.OAA15735@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200101192108.OAA15735@usr08.primenet.com> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > >Technically, FreeBSD is a stage 2 "cult", on the cusp of achieving >legitimacy as a "religion" (I'll keep that analogy, since it's as apt >as any). It's actually the first Open Source project that I'm aware >of to reach this stage (it is at least the most visible to do so), >and that makes it a very interesting subject of study. AFAIAA Apache has never been a cult, since right from the start it was developed by a group of equals. Admittedly the number of developers is tiny compared to FreeBSD so it doesn't have the same scaling problems, but it has remained reasonably stable over the last five years and has gracefully handled a good deal of churn in the development team. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at "And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 18:44: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB1B37B401 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:43:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA15946; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:43:43 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:43:43 -0700 (MST) From: John Galt Reply-To: To: Brett Glass Cc: Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119164526.04966c80@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Brett Glass wrote: >This is truly sad. In the message from "John Galt," we see him Hey! The first time I managed to get a proper noun in his rants about me! What's the matter, run out of pronouns? Or did you just learn how to read four letter words? >resorting to both falsehoods (which don't bear repeating; Falsehoods? Read the Fucking archives, lackwit. >suffice it to say that he hasn't said anything significant >that ISN'T false) and veiled threats. Veiled? If you say so: I thought I was being rather blunt. Okay, for the cerebrally challenged like Brett, I shall restate it in terms even the most pathetic excuse for a life form should understand (this means you Brett): I'm going to adopt you, flamebait. Every time you say something deserving of a flame, you need not worry about somebody missing it, as I will already have the flame in route to you--even when you don't say something deserving of a flame, you'll get one just because I'm just that kind of person. >It is this is the sort of person -- not I -- who deserves to >be relegated to the "kill file." Go ahead: I'll enjoy seeing the shoe on the other foot. You have weighed in on three threads involving my killfile message, while you had every indication that I could not have responded, since you were apparently in my killfile. You had no qualms about slandering me behind my back, let's see if you really trust that I have any. >--Brett > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Who is John Galt? Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft product. -- Ferenc Mantfeld To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 20:29:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (unknown [129.94.172.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E769E37B402 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:29:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id f0JB0nM03604; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:00:49 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:00:49 +1100 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: galt@inconnu.isu.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Brett wars (was: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge?) Message-ID: <20010119220049.C2793@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092259.048d6100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010119164526.04966c80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119164526.04966c80@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 04:50:48PM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 19 January 2001 at 16:50:48 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 > > This is truly sad. In the message from "John Galt," What's the significance of the ""? > we see him resorting to both falsehoods (which don't bear repeating; > suffice it to say that he hasn't said anything significant that > ISN'T false) and veiled threats. I see nothing. What are you talking about? > It is this is the sort of person -- not I -- who deserves to be > relegated to the "kill file." This is a basic misunderstanding. Kill files are a subjective thing; the decision about who goes into them is up to the individual user. An objective viewpoint might be "How many people have Brett Glass in their kill files? How many have John Galt?" Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 20:47:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com [24.6.21.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC2CC37B6A4 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cjsabatier@localhost) by cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f0K4mqa00198 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:48:52 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cjsabatier) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:48:51 -0600 From: Conrad Sabatier To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Finally took the plunge Message-ID: <20010119224851.A96829@home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, after 4 1/2 years with FreeBSD, I finally decided to do it: I hosed my Windows installation, reformatted my discs in "dangerously dedicated" mode, and now have a totally FreeBSD system. It feels really cool having no Windows on my machine anymore, especially at boot time, when I don't have to see the boot manager prompt. :-) And it's a real testament, I think, to just what a high-quality piece of work FreeBSD really is, and how far it's evolved in the last few years since I first started using it. I no longer have any need for Windows. FreeBSD can do everything I need, and do it a whole heck of a lot better than Windows, too. -- Conrad Sabatier cjsabatier@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 21:31:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606F237B400 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:31:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from zoraida.reyes.somos.net (zoraida.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.15]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04556; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 00:27:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 00:35:09 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes To: Conrad Sabatier Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Finally took the plunge In-Reply-To: <20010119224851.A96829@home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Conrad Sabatier wrote: > Well, after 4 1/2 years with FreeBSD, I finally decided to do it: I hosed > my Windows installation, reformatted my discs in "dangerously dedicated" > mode, and now have a totally FreeBSD system. Congrats on your decision. In my case at least my decision was buying a machine for FreeBSD. It was a Pentium 100Mhz with 32MB RAM I picked up for $100 while my main machine was a 233Mhz Windows 98SE with 96MB. The FreeBSD machine was so much better than the Windows 98 machine that I ended up getting a 500Mhz machine just for FreeBSD. Yesterday I received a Duron 800Mhz and installed Windows 2000. The 500Mhz FreeBSD with 32MB less of RAM (win2k has 128MB) is still more responsive. Unfortunately as long as I have clients using windows I have to have a windows machine to test/program. I do as much as I can on the FreeBSD machine.. not out of been a puris, but simply because it is snappier. I also love the virtual screens at the console prompt and and my WM Xfce. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 21:46: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A4937B400; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:45:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA14249; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:45:22 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119212205.04417840@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:51:56 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , greywolf@starwolf.com (Greywolf) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: reg@FreeBSD.ORG (Jeremy Lea), kris@catonic.net (Kris Kirby), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200101191858.LAA12713@usr08.primenet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:58 AM 1/19/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >Brett is a nice example here; if I had to psycho-analyze him >(which I don't have the credentials to do, despite having helped >several people study for a Master's in Psychiatric Socialwork, >and having read everything they've read), I'd say that Brett is >still here because FreeBSD is the closest social organization to >what he wants to have come into existance. He can agree or he >can disagree, that's only my opinion right now, with the evidence >at hand. Actually, there are other social structures that I'd prefer for an open source operating system project. I work with the BSDs because they are technologically sophisticated and their licensing (unlike that of Linux) is ethical. I am greatly concerned about the BSDs' reliance on the GNU toolchain and (in some cases) on GNU userland utilities. FreeBSD uses the most GNU software, and this disturbs me because it puts it most at the mercy of an organization whose agenda requires the ultimate destruction of all alternatives -- including all of the BSDs. I work with FreeBSD a fair amount of the time because it has features that I often need. (When size or simplicity is an issue, I use NetBSD or OpenBSD, because they remain closer to the KISS philosophy that was prevalent at CSRG. Also, I can squash their kernels and userlands into a smaller space, which is helpful for some of the embedded applications I do.) I monitor these lists because I need to keep informed about features, security advisories, etc. I participate in the conversations here because I can sometimes be helpful to fellow users and administrators and often learn things. The pissing contests I endure on the lists are their biggest drawback. I'd like to influence the future direction and philosophy of FreeBSD, but even simple and seemingly obvious suggestions in these areas seem to be met with strong resistance. The "leaders" are so territorial and resistant to outside suggestions that they'll reject ideas that come from outside the core group -- and, in particular, from me because I've been labeled as "dangerous." So, my best success has come when I've been able to get one of those leaders to say, "That's a great idea; glad I thought of it!" Unfortunately, the kinds of ideas that can be introduced via this technique are limited. The absolute WORST way to bring up an idea, I've found, is on the mailing lists -- which is a shame because they're the community's primary avenues of communication. I'd like to be able to make suggestions directly rather than being forced to adopt "stealth" techniques, but it doesn't seem possible with the current social climate or leadership. The egos are too strong and the combative nature of some of the key players prevents it. I hold out a faint hope that there could be open, honest, relaxed, and less ego-laden discussion, but sure don't see it on the horizon anytime soon, at least for FreeBSD. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 21:51:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C390E37B400 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:51:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA14301; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:51:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119224810.00e576f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:51:18 -0700 To: From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119164526.04966c80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Please keep at it! You're making me look like an angel, even in the eyes of those who demonized me before. --Brett At 07:43 PM 1/19/2001, John Galt wrote: >Veiled? If you say so: I thought I was being rather blunt. Okay, for the >cerebrally challenged like Brett, I shall restate it in terms even the >most pathetic excuse for a life form should understand (this means you >Brett): I'm going to adopt you, flamebait. Every time you say something >deserving of a flame, you need not worry about somebody missing it, as I >will already have the flame in route to you--even when you don't say >something deserving of a flame, you'll get one just because I'm just that >kind of person. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 21:56:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08D8D37B400 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:55:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22897; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:55:51 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:55:51 -0700 (MST) From: John Galt Reply-To: To: Brett Glass Cc: Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119224810.00e576f0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Brett Glass wrote: >Please keep at it! You're making me look like an angel, even >in the eyes of those who demonized me before. Whom the gods make great, first they destroy, so the converse must be true. Enjoy your "looking like an angel" for it will be transient. >--Brett > >At 07:43 PM 1/19/2001, John Galt wrote: > >>Veiled? If you say so: I thought I was being rather blunt. Okay, for the >>cerebrally challenged like Brett, I shall restate it in terms even the >>most pathetic excuse for a life form should understand (this means you >>Brett): I'm going to adopt you, flamebait. Every time you say something >>deserving of a flame, you need not worry about somebody missing it, as I >>will already have the flame in route to you--even when you don't say >>something deserving of a flame, you'll get one just because I'm just that >>kind of person. > > -- I can be immature if I want to, because I'm mature enough to make my own decisions. Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 22:23:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 890B837B400 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA23804; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:23:26 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:23:26 -0700 (MST) From: John Galt Reply-To: To: Brett Glass Cc: Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119212205.04417840@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You don't listen when requested to trim headers, do you? And ctl-k just taken out of the ASCII spec too... What a maroon! On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Brett Glass wrote: >At 11:58 AM 1/19/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > >>Brett is a nice example here; if I had to psycho-analyze him >>(which I don't have the credentials to do, despite having helped >>several people study for a Master's in Psychiatric Socialwork, >>and having read everything they've read), I'd say that Brett is >>still here because FreeBSD is the closest social organization to >>what he wants to have come into existance. He can agree or he >>can disagree, that's only my opinion right now, with the evidence >>at hand. > >Actually, there are other social structures that I'd prefer for an Yeah, there are others that you'd prefer, but those that you prefer AND that will take you must number rather few, especially since I have my doubts as to any society that doesn't have second thoughts about including you after finding out about you. >open source operating system project. I work with the BSDs because >they are technologically sophisticated and their licensing (unlike >that of Linux) is ethical. I am greatly concerned about the BSDs' I need to get you and Raul Miller in the same room one of these days: he's rabid GPL, you're rabid BSDL. Hopefully the two of you will cancel each other out and the rest of us can get on with a happier life... >reliance on the GNU toolchain and (in some cases) on GNU userland >utilities. FreeBSD uses the most GNU software, and this disturbs >me because it puts it most at the mercy of an organization whose >agenda requires the ultimate destruction of all alternatives -- >including all of the BSDs. > >I work with FreeBSD a fair amount of the time because it has >features that I often need. (When size or simplicity is an issue, >I use NetBSD or OpenBSD, because they remain closer to the >KISS philosophy that was prevalent at CSRG. Also, I can >squash their kernels and userlands into a smaller space, which >is helpful for some of the embedded applications I do.) I >monitor these lists because I need to keep informed about >features, security advisories, etc. I participate in the >conversations here because I can sometimes be helpful to fellow >users and administrators and often learn things. The pissing >contests I endure on the lists are their biggest drawback. You want to stop pissing contests, put away your pathetic excuse for a penis. >I'd like to influence the future direction and philosophy TRUST me, you do more to influence the direction of FreeBSD than any ten others. When you espouse something, people avoid it like the plague. >of FreeBSD, but even simple and seemingly obvious suggestions >in these areas seem to be met with strong resistance. The >"leaders" are so territorial and resistant to outside >suggestions that they'll reject ideas that come from outside >the core group -- and, in particular, from me because >I've been labeled as "dangerous." So, my best success has come Okay, I'll help here: I dub thee "dangerously stupid". >when I've been able to get one of those leaders to say, "That's >a great idea; glad I thought of it!" Unfortunately, the kinds ROFLMAO! Stop, you're KILLING me! >of ideas that can be introduced via this technique are >limited. The absolute WORST way to bring up an idea, I've Other than the header "From: Brett Glass "? >found, is on the mailing lists -- which is a shame because >they're the community's primary avenues of communication. > >I'd like to be able to make suggestions directly rather than >being forced to adopt "stealth" techniques, but it doesn't >seem possible with the current social climate or leadership. ...or the current suggester... >The egos are too strong and the combative nature of some of >the key players prevents it. I hold out a faint hope that >there could be open, honest, relaxed, and less ego-laden The open part's easy: it's already there. The honest part is kind of ruled out when you're one of the participants. The relaxed part is also kind of out around you: you are probably the LEAST relaxing person I have had the misfortune to encounter. As for "less ego-laden": yeah, riiiight. Your ego expands to exceed the capacity of any given vessel rather quickly. >discussion, but sure don't see it on the horizon anytime soon, >at least for FreeBSD. > >--Brett > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- I can be immature if I want to, because I'm mature enough to make my own decisions. Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 23:27:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winnie.fit.edu (fit.edu [163.118.5.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F081937B401 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from netzero.net (rm305w-b.campbell.fit.edu [163.118.216.112]) by winnie.fit.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA21527 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 02:28:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A693DD0.603CC6E3@netzero.net> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 02:27:12 -0500 From: Kevin Brunelle X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Finally took the plunge References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Well, after 4 1/2 years with FreeBSD, I finally decided to do it: I hosed > my Windows installation, reformatted my discs in "dangerously dedicated" > mode, and now have a totally FreeBSD system. That was the greatest day of my life. When I realized that I could do everything with FreeBSD better than with windows. I got rid of the partition and have been free ever since. No longer can I be called a Windows' whore (a little name people started calling me because I had to use windows even though it made me feel dirty ;-) ). Go ahead -- shout it from the rooftops, this is something people cannot hear enough of. BTW: Just in case, you might want to get "The 12 Steps for Getting Away from Win95 and other MS Products." It can help you from falling back into your old habits. Then again, I still haven't hit the withdrawal stage (well over a year later)... but you never know. Some people might have actually enjoyed the Blue Screens. -Kevin Brunelle Ex-Windows Whore -- "Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle and quick to anger." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 19 23:58:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zihua.swbell.net (adsl-64-123-14-11.dsl.austtx.swbell.net [64.123.14.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC3E37B402 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cmconn@localhost) by zihua.swbell.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f0K7sKt02778; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 01:54:20 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cmclist@swbell.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zihua.swbell.net: cmconn set sender to cmclist@swbell.net using -f From: Christopher Mark Conn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14953.17451.683359.681017@zihua.swbell.net> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 01:54:19 -0600 To: Kevin Brunelle Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Finally took the plunge In-Reply-To: <3A693DD0.603CC6E3@netzero.net> References: <3A693DD0.603CC6E3@netzero.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.77 under Emacs 20.7.2 Reply-To: cmclist@swbell.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Well, after 4 1/2 years with FreeBSD, > > I finally decided to do it: I hosed > > my Windows installation, reformatted my > > discs in "dangerously dedicated" > > mode, and now have a totally FreeBSD system. I'm using an old Compaq P166 as a stand-alone FreeBSD box and I love it, have found myself spending more and more time on it and living the PII (dual boot Win and Slackware) and PIII (Win98 only) to the wife and kids. I suspect that I'm getting better performance with this little box than they are with Windows. I've noticed that X and Netscape use the most cpu at 7%, can Windows compare to that? :-) My goal is to make this box my gateway for our DSL, right now the PIII is doing that job but I think FreeBSD would do it better. Honestly I've got a bit of a learning curve first, I want to really know what I'm doing, not do it 'cookbook' style. Chris Conn, proud to be Powered by FreeBSD cmclist@swbell.net Leander, Texas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 0:39:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gratis.grondar.za (grouter.grondar.za [196.7.18.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 120CF37B400 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 00:39:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from grondar.za (root@gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.133]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0K8cFI52300; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 10:38:20 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200101200838.f0K8cFI52300@gratis.grondar.za> To: cmclist@swbell.net Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Finally took the plunge References: <14953.17451.683359.681017@zihua.swbell.net> In-Reply-To: <14953.17451.683359.681017@zihua.swbell.net> ; from Christopher Mark Conn "Sat, 20 Jan 2001 01:54:19 CST." Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 10:38:24 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm using an old Compaq P166 as a stand-alone > FreeBSD box and I love it, have found myself > spending more and more time on it and living > the PII (dual boot Win and Slackware) and PIII > (Win98 only) to the wife and kids. Welcome to the fold! :-) M -- Mark Murray Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 1: 5:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495E037B400 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 01:05:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA13329 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 22:05:32 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200101200905.WAA13329@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary / FreshPorts To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 22:05:31 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Reply-To: dan@langille.org In-reply-to: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092521.048e2ba0@localhost> References: <200101191019.XAA06777@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Jan 2001, at 9:27, Brett Glass wrote: > In other words, "take your hazing like a man." No. I don't consider this hazing. You're the one that brought up yourself as a hazing recipient. > Sorry, Dan, but Neil's message was the most insidious, nasty sort > of put-down. But Brett, you missed the points.... Never mind. It's all been said before anyways. And no, Neil's message was very succient. The Galt message falls in the category you mentioned. Not Neil's message. > You should have the guts to condemn his behavior > rather than participating in the pecking party. I gave you some recommendations, which you chose to ignore. No problem with that. My advice is nothing special. [snip] > >And please don't reply to me either. Thanks. I guess that request was useless. Please, do not CC me on this thread. Don't even bother to reply to me. I think I've made my point. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 3:11:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F3DC37B401 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 03:11:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from shootthemlater.demon.co.uk ([194.222.93.84] helo=cerebus.parse.net) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14Jvvc-000ILe-0U; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:11:29 +0000 Received: from wbra0013.cognos.com ([10.0.0.3] helo=acm.org) by cerebus.parse.net with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14Jvva-000Cd4-00; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:11:26 +0000 Message-ID: <3A697238.8BA796AB@acm.org> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:10:48 +0000 From: David Goddard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Conrad Sabatier Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Finally took the plunge References: <20010119224851.A96829@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Conrad Sabatier wrote: > > Well, after 4 1/2 years with FreeBSD, I finally decided to do it: I hosed > my Windows installation, reformatted my discs in "dangerously dedicated" > mode, and now have a totally FreeBSD system. Way to go, mate. What I don't get is that this message is all of several hours old and it hasn't managed to re-awaken the "dangerously dedicated" debate ;) Guess everyone must be too busy with Brett... Dave To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 4: 7: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFFD137B400 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 04:06:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA17523; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 05:06:38 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010120050213.04a98ef0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 05:06:21 -0700 To: dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: <200101200905.WAA13329@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092521.048e2ba0@localhost> <200101191019.XAA06777@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:05 AM 1/20/2001, Dan Langille wrote: >I guess that request was useless. Please, do not CC me on this >thread. Don't even bother to reply to me. I think I've made my point. "Don't even bother to reply to me" == "I am now going to insult you, and do not want you to refute what I say. So, I'll ask you not to reply so that if you do, I can label you as rude." Sigh. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 5:29:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EAB5537B401 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 05:29:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 69517 invoked from network); 20 Jan 2001 13:29:22 -0000 Received: from gargoyle.outpost.co.nz (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.42) by outpost-4.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 20 Jan 2001 13:29:22 -0000 Message-ID: <3A6992AB.DEFE975C@outpost.co.nz> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 02:29:15 +1300 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119092521.048e2ba0@localhost> <200101191019.XAA06777@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010120050213.04a98ef0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (bugger, replied to Brett instead of -chat) Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:05 AM 1/20/2001, Dan Langille wrote: > > >I guess that request was useless. Please, do not CC me on this > >thread. Don't even bother to reply to me. I think I've made my point. > > "Don't even bother to reply to me" == "I am now going to insult you, > and do not want you to refute what I say. So, I'll ask you not to > reply so that if you do, I can label you as rude." Uh Brett, which part of Dan's message was insulting you? I can't find it. I've attached the entire post below for your reference. -- C. ---cut here---8<---cut here--- On 19 Jan 2001, at 9:27, Brett Glass wrote: > In other words, "take your hazing like a man." No. I don't consider this hazing. You're the one that brought up yourself as a hazing recipient. > Sorry, Dan, but Neil's message was the most insidious, nasty sort > of put-down. But Brett, you missed the points.... Never mind. It's all been said before anyways. And no, Neil's message was very succient. The Galt message falls in the category you mentioned. Not Neil's message. > You should have the guts to condemn his behavior > rather than participating in the pecking party. I gave you some recommendations, which you chose to ignore. No problem with that. My advice is nothing special. [snip] > >And please don't reply to me either. Thanks. I guess that request was useless. Please, do not CC me on this thread. Don't even bother to reply to me. I think I've made my point. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 5:57:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from midget.dons.net.au (daniel.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.137.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87B3A37B400 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 05:56:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (guppy.dons.net.au [203.31.81.9]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0KDuod04834; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 00:26:50 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010119222212.10896.richw@wyattearp.stanford.edu> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 00:26:50 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Rich Wales Subject: Re: VCD (was Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/ata atapi-cd.c) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [redirected to -chat] On 19-Jan-01 Rich Wales wrote: > The picture resolution is 352x240 pixels (NTSC) -- roughly VHS quality. If a VCD is VHS quality either NTSC is much worse than PAL or you need a new VCR. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 6:53:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from slkcpop4.slkc.uswest.net (slkcpop4.slkc.uswest.net [206.81.128.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3C0BC37B69D for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 06:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 45364 invoked by alias); 20 Jan 2001 14:53:22 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 45357 invoked by uid 0); 20 Jan 2001 14:53:21 -0000 Received: from aidialup233.slkc.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (63.224.110.233) by slkcpop4.slkc.uswest.net with SMTP; 20 Jan 2001 14:53:21 -0000 Message-ID: <3A6A4F3C.E31D628D@uswest.net> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:53:48 -0700 From: Joe Warner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD Stands Out! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, Yesterday at 4:00pm and as luck would have it, someone at work stuck the end of a screwdriver where they shouldn't have and dropped our whole data center. After a couple of hours of working with the rest of our IS staff to get all the servers back up, I noticed something peculiar. We were still having problems with one of our routers (the config file got blown away) and we kept checking "Network Neighborhood" on a Windows machine to see what workstations were showing up under our domain. For a long time, the only workstations that would show up was our primary pdc and the FreeBSD 3.4 workstation I have in my cubicle! We all got a chuckle out of this but I still don't know why this happened. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 8:21:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A25C937B402; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 08:20:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05269; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 08:20:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200101201620.IAA05269@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 08:20:02 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? To: jhb@FreeBSD.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, nik@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Jan, John Baldwin wrote: > [ cc's trimeed, no need to spam NetBSD with this :) ] > > On 19-Jan-01 opentrax@email.com wrote: >> >> >> On 19 Jan, Nik Clayton wrote: >>> On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 01:06:49PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: >>>> Speaking as a relative newcomer to FreeBSD, I definitely feel >>>> that there is a certain amount of hazing that goes on. If you want >>>> to contribute to the project, you're expected to write code. >>> >>> Manifestly not true. Write new documentation or help improve existing >>> documentation. >>> >>> That's probably the fastest track to getting a commit bit as well. >>> >> I have to disagree Nik. > > Actually JMJ, I originally got my commit bit to do documentation stuff by > converting the Committer's Guide from plain text to DocBook with appropriate > markup. I then meandered my way over into the src/ tree where I now spend my > time engaged in SMP hacking. I still like to do docs, I've written several > kernel manpages and FAQ entries. The Documentation Project is certainly an > easy way to get involved with the project. > I don't believe you comments do anything to dispell(sp?) the comments made by Terry. At best, you comments support his position. Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 8:27:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A89E37B400 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 08:27:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from zoraida.reyes.somos.net (zoraida.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.15]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08111; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:23:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:30:50 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes To: Christopher Mark Conn Cc: Kevin Brunelle , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Finally took the plunge In-Reply-To: <14953.17451.683359.681017@zihua.swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Christopher Mark Conn wrote: > My goal is to make this box my gateway for our > DSL, right now the PIII is doing that job but > I think FreeBSD would do it better. Honestly > I've got a bit of a learning curve first, I > want to really know what I'm doing, not do it > 'cookbook' style. There is nothing wrong with doing things "cookbook" style. I have done several things that route. Months later I see the setup files again and they make more sense, until eventually I understand them. And all through that time you were getting the benefits of the setup. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 9: 1:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D3937B400 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 09:01:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA14645; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 06:01:31 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200101201701.GAA14645@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary / FreshPorts To: Brett Glass Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 06:01:31 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <4.3.2.7.2.20010120050213.04a98ef0@localhost> References: <200101200905.WAA13329@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20 Jan 2001, at 5:06, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:05 AM 1/20/2001, Dan Langille wrote: > > >I guess that request was useless. Please, do not CC me on this > >thread. Don't even bother to reply to me. I think I've made my point. > > "Don't even bother to reply to me" == "I am now going to insult you, > and do not want you to refute what I say. So, I'll ask you not to > reply so that if you do, I can label you as rude." Fucking hell Brett! I did not insult you. Now fuck off. Good bye. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 12:14:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-56-41.knology.net [24.214.56.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6002837B402 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 12:14:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0KKEEl66220; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:14:14 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200101202014.f0KKEEl66220@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Joe Warner Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Stands Out! In-Reply-To: Message from Joe Warner of "Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:53:48 MST." <3A6A4F3C.E31D628D@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:14:14 -0600 From: David Kelly Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joe Warner writes: > After a couple of hours of working with the > rest of our IS staff to get all the servers back > up, I noticed something peculiar. We were > still having problems with one of our routers > (the config file got blown away) and we > kept checking "Network Neighborhood" on > a Windows machine to see what workstations > were showing up under our domain. For a > long time, the only workstations that would > show up was our primary pdc and the > FreeBSD 3.4 workstation I have in my > cubicle! We all got a chuckle out of this > but I still don't know why this happened. > > Does anyone have any ideas? Have never quite grasped the fine art of Samba tuning but last time I groped with it the defaults had Samba as a "secondary" or such domain controller. Found out because within my network segment up to the 1st router all of the network neighborhood was wiped out (nearby machines were not listed). Machines were getting the network neighborhood info off my Samba. And my Samba didn't have a correct list. Ran that way for months and the IT police didn't come knocking. But noticed it myself in one of those rare moments FreeBSD (and Samba) was not running. Knowing it was something I iterated the Samba configuration until it behaved more like a dumb Win machine with file sharing turned on. Maybe my problem was that I never pointed it at or added it to an official corporate SMB domain. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 13:13:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FC2837B401; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:13:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id PAA94535680 Sat, 20 Jan 2001 15:07:53 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA24203; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:11:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:11:58 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , Greywolf , Jeremy Lea , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Message-ID: <20010120131158.C24023@darkstar.gte.net> References: <200101191858.LAA12713@usr08.primenet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010119212205.04417840@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010119212205.04417840@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:51:56PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:51:56PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:58 AM 1/19/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >Brett is a nice example here; if I had to psycho-analyze him > >(which I don't have the credentials to do, despite having helped > >several people study for a Master's in Psychiatric Socialwork, > >and having read everything they've read), I'd say that Brett is > >still here because FreeBSD is the closest social organization to > >what he wants to have come into existance. He can agree or he > >can disagree, that's only my opinion right now, with the evidence > >at hand. > > Actually, there are other social structures that I'd prefer for an > open source operating system project. Start a project. (I intend to.) The evolution of social structures doesn't have to end here. The value of opensource software doen't have to end with operating systems. I work with the BSDs because > they are technologically sophisticated and their licensing (unlike > that of Linux) is ethical. I am greatly concerned about the BSDs' > reliance on the GNU toolchain and (in some cases) on GNU userland > utilities. FreeBSD uses the most GNU software, and this disturbs > me because it puts it most at the mercy of an organization whose > agenda requires the ultimate destruction of all alternatives -- > including all of the BSDs. How long does it take for something as big as FreeBSD to make even a small course change? Big ships have big rudders. Steady, long term, positive interaction with the project may cause and outcome you like. Maybe not. In regard to GNU; The processor is closed source. The operating system is open source. The line between has to be drawn somewhere? In a way, I'm supprised that the instruction set isn't licensed. > > I work with FreeBSD a fair amount of the time because it has > features that I often need. (When size or simplicity is an issue, > I use NetBSD or OpenBSD, because they remain closer to the > KISS philosophy that was prevalent at CSRG. Also, I can > squash their kernels and userlands into a smaller space, which > is helpful for some of the embedded applications I do.) I > monitor these lists because I need to keep informed about > features, security advisories, etc. I participate in the > conversations here because I can sometimes be helpful to fellow > users and administrators and often learn things. The pissing > contests I endure on the lists are their biggest drawback. You learn from people, the products of people, or from the pissing match. What else is there? > > I'd like to influence the future direction and philosophy > of FreeBSD, but even simple and seemingly obvious suggestions > in these areas seem to be met with strong resistance. The > "leaders" are so territorial and resistant to outside > suggestions that they'll reject ideas that come from outside > the core group -- and, in particular, from me because > I've been labeled as "dangerous." In this context, how dangerous can an idea be? I imagine that depends on the idea, and the target audience for the idea. So, my best success has come > when I've been able to get one of those leaders to say, "That's > a great idea; glad I thought of it!" Unfortunately, the kinds > of ideas that can be introduced via this technique are > limited. The absolute WORST way to bring up an idea, I've > found, is on the mailing lists -- which is a shame because > they're the community's primary avenues of communication. > Maybe being a martyr is your cause? Maybe the reality of the situation can't be aproximated in email? Maybe you suffer from the same issues as the "leaders"? Do I mean to suggest these things? No, they could all apply to any of us. It just seems that what people say differs more than what people *are*. If this project is different things to different people, it only follows that what people say will never agree. > I'd like to be able to make suggestions directly rather than > being forced to adopt "stealth" techniques, but it doesn't > seem possible with the current social climate or leadership. > The egos are too strong and the combative nature of some of > the key players prevents it. I hold out a faint hope that > there could be open, honest, relaxed, and less ego-laden > discussion, but sure don't see it on the horizon anytime soon, > at least for FreeBSD. Can a person offer a suggestion, without actually hoping that the suggestion be taken? Doesn't a unsolicited suggestion then always seek to change someone's will? To force someone's hand? > > --Brett > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Thanks for the chance to interact, if even in email, [RC] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 13:54:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moby.geekhouse.net (moby.geekhouse.net [64.81.6.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B12A937B402; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:54:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@dhcp150.geekhouse.net [192.168.1.150]) by moby.geekhouse.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0KLwZs75958; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:58:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200101201620.IAA05269@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:54:15 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: nik@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20-Jan-01 opentrax@email.com wrote: > > > On 19 Jan, John Baldwin wrote: >> [ cc's trimeed, no need to spam NetBSD with this :) ] >> >> On 19-Jan-01 opentrax@email.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 19 Jan, Nik Clayton wrote: >>>> On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 01:06:49PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: >>>>> Speaking as a relative newcomer to FreeBSD, I definitely feel >>>>> that there is a certain amount of hazing that goes on. If you want >>>>> to contribute to the project, you're expected to write code. >>>> >>>> Manifestly not true. Write new documentation or help improve existing >>>> documentation. >>>> >>>> That's probably the fastest track to getting a commit bit as well. >>>> >>> I have to disagree Nik. >> >> Actually JMJ, I originally got my commit bit to do documentation stuff by >> converting the Committer's Guide from plain text to DocBook with appropriate >> markup. I then meandered my way over into the src/ tree where I now spend >> my >> time engaged in SMP hacking. I still like to do docs, I've written several >> kernel manpages and FAQ entries. The Documentation Project is certainly an >> easy way to get involved with the project. >> > I don't believe you comments do anything to dispell(sp?) the comments > made by Terry. At best, you comments support his position. Huh? You mean that the fact that I couldn't just walk in and demand a commit bit, but that I had to demonstrate some base level of competency first is hazing? Hmm. How do you decide which people to hire then? Does it involve drawing names out of a hat? > Jessem. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 14:31:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C93937B400 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:31:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 10D1A755D; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:31:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E3761D8E; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:31:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:31:19 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: John Galt Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, John Galt wrote: :On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Brett Glass wrote: : :>Please keep at it! You're making me look like an angel, even :>in the eyes of those who demonized me before. : :Whom the gods make great, first they destroy, so the converse must be :true. Enjoy your "looking like an angel" for it will be transient. You'll be the one procmailed to /dev/null if you carry through. Get a real name, use it, don't be an asshole. Bret's inflammatory, but he's not malicious for it's own sake. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 14:56:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moby.geekhouse.net (moby.geekhouse.net [64.81.6.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF5EB37B698 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:56:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@dhcp150.geekhouse.net [192.168.1.150]) by moby.geekhouse.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f0KN0Ms76072; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 15:00:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3A697238.8BA796AB@acm.org> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:56:02 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: David Goddard Subject: Re: Finally took the plunge Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Conrad Sabatier Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20-Jan-01 David Goddard wrote: > Conrad Sabatier wrote: >> >> Well, after 4 1/2 years with FreeBSD, I finally decided to do it: I hosed >> my Windows installation, reformatted my discs in "dangerously dedicated" >> mode, and now have a totally FreeBSD system. > > Way to go, mate. > > What I don't get is that this message is all of several hours old and it > hasn't managed to re-awaken the "dangerously dedicated" debate ;) It took restraint. :) And I was rather tied up hacking code. Actually, DD mode is now a sort of hidden feature in -current anyways. (Yay!) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 18:26:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C543637B400 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 18:26:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA13323 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 02:26:28 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 02:26:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Ack! Numbers! Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just a short while ago I sat down in front of a machine and realized the following: I had logged on at 20:20:28 on 1/20/2000. Darn, missed by eight seconds. But for about a minute, I thought it was the attack of the twenties. Again, it attacks! I'm twenty-one! ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 18:27:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from irev.net (cx858027-b.escnd1.sdca.home.com [24.5.180.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4738037B401 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 18:27:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from cx443070b (cx443070-b.vista1.sdca.home.com [24.0.36.170]) by irev.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f0L2PUK12784; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 18:25:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from data@irev.net) Message-ID: <001101c08351$c9dc46e0$aa240018@cx443070b> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: Cc: Subject: FreeBSD comment seen on Slashdot.org Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 18:27:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org BSD? It needs a better name. Daemonix sounds good, and fits the mascot. UNIX It does already have a better name. It's called "Unix". Jeremiah Gowdy Network Administrator Sherline Products To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 19: 7:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8865737B402; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:07:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup1750.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.234.214]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10735F5DF; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 04:07:21 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200101191752.KAA10973@usr08.primenet.com> References: <200101191752.KAA10973@usr08.primenet.com> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 01:49:55 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: reg@FreeBSD.ORG (Jeremy Lea), kris@catonic.net (Kris Kirby), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:52 PM +0000 2001/1/19, Terry Lambert wrote: > ...In other words, there's really no way to "ban" someone > who is really determined, and willing to out-spend you, > unless you are willing to cut your own throat. The Internet > has no "prison" equivalent. Even in the real world, a sufficiently determined person can wind up performing most any crime they like. Locking them up is not enough -- the only way to permanently stop them is to end their life. In this respect, the 'net really isn't any different, although it does probably make it easier to succeed in by-passing the control mechanisms. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 19: 7:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ED2C37B698; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:07:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup1750.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.234.214]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63AF5DF53; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 04:07:23 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010119163606.B14173@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <20010119153129.A48976@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010119163606.B14173@citusc17.usc.edu> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 02:12:31 +0100 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:36 PM -0800 2001/1/19, Kris Kennaway wrote: > s/write code/contribute/ > > That's all it is, and if you think about it, it's basically a truism. There are plenty of ways to contribute that do not require writing code, however my personal experience is that those other methods do not tend to be valued by many members of the FreeBSD community. Your experience may be different, but that doesn't change mine. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 19:10:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-56-41.knology.net [24.214.56.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F3937B402 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:10:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f0L35hl72955; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 21:05:48 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200101210305.f0L35hl72955@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Kris Kirby Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Ack! Numbers! In-reply-to: Message from Kris Kirby of "Sun, 21 Jan 2001 02:26:28 GMT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 21:05:43 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby writes: > > Just a short while ago I sat down in front of a machine and realized the > following: > > I had logged on at 20:20:28 on 1/20/2000. You have been logged in for a year and only just now noticed? :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 19:15:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail2.rdc1.on.home.com (femail2.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8B7537B698 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.com ([24.150.36.79]) by femail2.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010121031453.RYMW2929.femail2.rdc1.on.home.com@home.com>; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:14:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3A6A7D2F.B29059E3@home.com> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 22:09:51 -0800 From: Paul Murphy X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Conrad Sabatier Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Finally took the plunge References: <20010119224851.A96829@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Conrad Sabatier wrote: > Well, after 4 1/2 years with FreeBSD, I finally decided to do it: I hosed > my Windows installation, reformatted my discs in "dangerously dedicated" > mode, and now have a totally FreeBSD system. > > It feels really cool having no Windows on my machine anymore, especially Did the same thing 3 months ago, and never looked back! It's also good that one can be involved with the OS on any level you like ... from maintaining the daily running of a single desktop box to [potentially] writing kernel code. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 19:20:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail2.rdc1.on.home.com (femail2.rdc1.on.home.com [24.2.9.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FFA337B6AB for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:20:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.com ([24.150.36.79]) by femail2.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010121032016.SAYM2929.femail2.rdc1.on.home.com@home.com>; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:20:16 -0800 Message-ID: <3A6A7E71.364E6D6B@home.com> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 22:15:13 -0800 From: Paul Murphy X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kevin Brunelle Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Finally took the plunge References: <3A693DD0.603CC6E3@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kevin Brunelle wrote: > > BTW: Just in case, you might want to get "The 12 Steps for Getting Away > from > Win95 and other MS Products." It can help you from falling back into > your > old habits. Then again, I still haven't hit the withdrawal stage (well I can proudly say that it is the reverse for me. I keep trying to to get to the command prompt on a Windows box by typing ctl-alt-F1, and 'ls' for a directory listing. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 19:44:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F9937B400; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:44:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.courts.govt.nz (xeon.unixathome.org [192.168.0.18]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA16337; Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:44:30 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200101210344.QAA16337@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> To: Brad Knowles , Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG From: Dan Langille Subject: Re: Why did NetBSD and FreeBSD diverge? Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 03:44:30 GMT X-Mailer: Endymion MailMan Professional Edition v3.0.29 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 4:36 PM -0800 2001/1/19, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > s/write code/contribute/ > > > > That's all it is, and if you think about it, it's basically a truism. > > There are plenty of ways to contribute that do not require > writing code, however my personal experience is that those other > methods do not tend to be valued by many members of the FreeBSD > community. The lack of *perceived* value may be related to the people who see your contributions. I say perceived because your contributions may well have been valued, it's just that you didn't get enough positive feedback. The types of things people value vary greatly. One coder may greater appreciate the work of another coder because it lets them accomplish something. Personally, the type of work I appreciate most is that of the port maintainers and of the documentation project? Why? Because the OS isn't much use if you can't get the apps you want. And documentation is what lets you use the OS in the first place. These non-code contributions are very much appreciated. It's just that the people who appreciate it are not in the vocal sector of the community. For example, I know that my work on FreeBSD Diary is appreciated by the readers. Why? Because the number of feedback comments I get saying "thanks, your site helped me a lot!". > Your experience may be different, but that doesn't change mine. It's unfortunate that your experience didn't include any appreciation of your work. If you like the type of work you did, keep doing it. If you dislike the lack of displayed appreciation, try another type of contribution. But don't give up. For the lurkers and non-coders out there: this article generated the most amount of feedback. It shows a few easy ways you can contribute regardless of your skill level. Keep --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 20 21:17:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 866DB37B401 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 21:17:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 08A66575A4; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 23:17:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 23:17:37 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, lan@irev.net Subject: Re: FreeBSD comment seen on Slashdot.org Message-ID: <20010120231737.A38818@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Jeremiah Gowdy , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, lan@irev.net References: <001101c08351$c9dc46e0$aa240018@cx443070b> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <001101c08351$c9dc46e0$aa240018@cx443070b>; from data@irev.net on Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 06:27:37PM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 06:27:37PM -0800, Jeremiah Gowdy scribbled: | BSD? | It needs a better name. Daemonix sounds good, and fits the mascot. | UNIX | It does already have a better name. It's called "Unix". You do realize this can possibly be a flame bait? :) There is really no need to start a discussion that most likely would go nowhere... -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message