From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 4 7:15:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15E7F37B401 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 07:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01543; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 08:14:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010204080917.049ecca0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 08:14:38 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: UNIX-like approach to software and system architecture (Was: D J Bernstein) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010203110403.048e78e0@localhost> References: <20010203135902.M94275@lpt.ens.fr> <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Interestingly, Theo De Raadt also seems to agree that djb's approach to DNS daemons is more sensible and secure than ISC's. In his own words: >ISC has been building a "one shoe fits all" DNS server, designed for >everything from small servers to root servers with the .com hierarchy on >them. Good security software has well constrained behaviours and small >subcomponents, so that unexpected results are minimized. BIND is not >written that way, and has hundreds of little features. It can be very >difficult to assure the quality of software designed to run in a wide >assortment of ways. None of the BIND implimentations has any of the >basic principles we see in great security software, and when we add in >the uniquitous and mono-cultured nature of it's deployment, the >discovery of a really nasty bug could hit really hard. Say, >I-LOVE-YOU.in-addr.arpa? > >We need more DNS server choices. For the article in which he was quoted, see http://securityportal.com/articles/chargingforsecurity20010201.html --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 4 7:27:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E2637B491 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 07:27:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f14FRD409078 ; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:27:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id QAA52303 ; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:27:32 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:27:32 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX-like approach to software and system architecture (Was: D J Bernstein) Message-ID: <20010204162732.A50591@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010203135902.M94275@lpt.ens.fr> <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010203110403.048e78e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010204080917.049ecca0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010204080917.049ecca0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 08:14:38AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Feb 4, 2001 at 08:14:38: > Interestingly, Theo De Raadt also seems to agree that djb's approach to > DNS daemons is more sensible and secure than ISC's. In his own words: I believe OpenBSD avoided the recent BIND bug, but they still bundle their version of BIND 4.x because they aren't satisfied about the security of later versions. Do they plan to work on a BIND substitute, or pick up djbdns? DJB himself seems to favour OpenBSD as an operating system. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 4 7:46:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B08B137B401 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 07:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01786; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 08:46:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010204083825.049e1e70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 08:46:21 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: UNIX-like approach to software and system architecture (Was: D J Bernstein) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, deraadt@cvs.openbsd.org In-Reply-To: <20010204162732.A50591@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010204080917.049ecca0@localhost> <20010203135902.M94275@lpt.ens.fr> <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010203110403.048e78e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010204080917.049ecca0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:27 AM 2/4/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >I believe OpenBSD avoided the recent BIND bug, but they still bundle >their version of BIND 4.x because they aren't satisfied about the >security of later versions. I still run BIND 4.x for that very reason. I've never really trusted BIND 8. The only major feature that 4.x lacks from a security perspective is the ability to prevent zone transfers to unauthorized parties, and this can be done (albeit crudely) at the firewall. So I do it there. >Do they plan to work on a BIND >substitute, or pick up djbdns? Good question! It would be consistent with their philosophy to do so. What's more, perhaps Theo could convince djb to agree to relicense under a BSD-type license, so that OpenBSD and others could conduct ongoing code audits as new types of security exploits were discovered. This would be a boon not only to OpenBSD but to everyone. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 4 9:17:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D2D737B503 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 09:17:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 14PSn2-0007zU-00; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 18:17:28 +0100 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f14GkKm44533 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 17:46:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: UNIX-like approach to software and system architecture Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 16:46:20 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <95k10s$1bfc$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <20010203135902.M94275@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010203110403.048e78e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010204080917.049ecca0@localhost> <20010204162732.A50591@lpt.ens.fr> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I believe OpenBSD avoided the recent BIND bug, but they still bundle > their version of BIND 4.x because they aren't satisfied about the > security of later versions. Do they plan to work on a BIND > substitute, The sentiment has been expressed that a BIND replacement ought to be written, but I'm not aware of any actual plans from OpenBSD developers to do so. BIND9 will probably receive some scrutiny. > or pick up djbdns? Given the license this is basically impossible. > DJB himself seems to favour OpenBSD as an operating system. OpenBSD doesn't seem to favor DJB's programs, though. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 4 15:12:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7B0D737B401 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 15:12:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 43911 invoked by uid 100); 4 Feb 2001 23:12:11 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14973.57803.289200.425874@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 17:12:11 -0600 (CST) To: john@T-F-I.freeserve.co.uk Cc: j mckitrick , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: software development tools - microsoft and unix In-Reply-To: References: <20010201183650.C76922@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Murphy types: > j mckitrick wrote: > >It seems if there is one thing Microsoft does well, it is providing powerful > >development tools. If you ignore the fact that they use proprietary > >language extensions, what is the problem with these tools? They have taken > >the industry by storm, and even Kdevelop has tried to clone the Visual > >studio look and feel. > > Borland does it better and there's some excitement about Kylix on /. > http://slashdot.org/articles/01/01/31/1634222.shtml > > There's also Glade (comes with the Gnome Desktop), probably very similar > to Kdevelop, which I haven't looked at yet. Since I just got reminded of it - Vistasource open sourced the application builder they ship with Applixware Office. Details, downloads, etc. at . The major drawback is that it works with ELF, the Applixware extension language. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 4 17: 1:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n37.san.rr.com (dt051n37.san.rr.com [204.210.32.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0339237B401 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 17:01:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from FreeBSD.org (Studded@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n37.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA81369; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 17:01:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <3A7DFB58.A46A1AF6@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 17:01:12 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, deraadt@cvs.openbsd.org Subject: Re: UNIX-like approach to software and system architecture(Was: D J Bernstein) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010204080917.049ecca0@localhost> <20010203135902.M94275@lpt.ens.fr> <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010203110403.048e78e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010204080917.049ecca0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010204083825.049e1e70@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 08:27 AM 2/4/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >I believe OpenBSD avoided the recent BIND bug, but they still bundle > >their version of BIND 4.x because they aren't satisfied about the > >security of later versions. > > I still run BIND 4.x for that very reason. Cool! .lariat.org coming right up! -- "Pain heals. Chicks dig scars. Glory . . . lasts forever." -- Keanu Reeves as Shane Falco in "The Replacements" Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 4 18: 2:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2E2137B491; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 18:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07210; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 19:02:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010204184624.04660f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 19:02:10 -0700 To: Doug Barton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: UNIX-like approach to software and system architecture(Was: D J Bernstein) Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, deraadt@cvs.openbsd.org In-Reply-To: <3A7DFB58.A46A1AF6@FreeBSD.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010204080917.049ecca0@localhost> <20010203135902.M94275@lpt.ens.fr> <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> <20010202140505.B91552@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200102022245.PAA15968@usr08.primenet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010203110403.048e78e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010204080917.049ecca0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010204083825.049e1e70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As I recall, the cache poisoning vulnerability was nuked somewhere between 4.9.6 and 4.9.7. The 4.x security holes mentioned at http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-2001-02.html were all closed between 4.9.7 and 4.9.8. OpenBSD still uses 4.9.8, I believe, and has had no exploitable vulnerabilities due to it. They do good audits. Oh, and LARIAT isn't "my" server. I did found the organization (way back in 1995), but am mainly just a member who volunteers some admin time. --Brett At 06:01 PM 2/4/2001, Doug Barton wrote: > Cool! .lariat.org coming right up! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 4 18:22:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE9337B65D for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 18:22:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 1293D6A90D; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:52:21 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:52:21 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Francisco Reyes Cc: David Schwartz , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Conduct Unbecoming a Core Team Member Message-ID: <20010205125220.C462@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from fran@reyes.somos.net on Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 10:17:04PM -0500 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 3 February 2001 at 22:17:04 -0500, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, David Schwartz wrote: > >>> For several weeks now, a Core Team member whom I don't >>> know personally -- one Peter Wemm -- appears to be engaging >>> in a practice somewhere between spamming and mail bombing. >>> Each time I post a message to any mailing list to which >>> he happens to subscribes (including not only several FreeBSD >>> lists but also some others), an autoresponder sends a copy >>> of it back to me with a rude message plus reams of headers >>> attached. (An example appears below.) >> >> IMO, regardless of who is doing it or why, autoresponding to posts to a >> mailing list should be grounds for removal from that mailing list. >> DS > > I have agree 100% with both Brett and David. > That behavior should not be condoned. > > Who would be the best person in the FreeBSD organization that we > should contact? I don't think that person even deserves to be tried > to be contacted. abuse@freebsd.org or postmaster@freebsd.org > perhaps? That's the Core Team's job. The fact that Peter is a member doesn't protect him. FWIW, he's also one of the postmasters. > I know that many people don't like Brett emails, but as far as I > know he doesn't mail bomb anybody. Moreover if someone posts on a > list it is fairly ridiculous to expect only replies of people you > agree with. And if someone doesn't like his replies they should > ignore them.. but having an autoresponder.. which is trigered by > messages from the list... that is insane! I'd be inclined to agree. From what I can see, so does Peter. I don't block any individual myself, though I do send autoresponses to known spammers. But I can see how this matter came about: Peter didn't want any personal mail from Brett, so he put in an autoresponder. I think that's legitimate, if maybe a little heavy-handed. The problem was that he didn't realise that his autoresponder would also bounce list mail. We all make mistakes. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 5 1:51:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDAC237B503 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 01:51:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f159pR469436 ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:51:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA89231 ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:51:46 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:51:46 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX-like approach to software and system architecture Message-ID: <20010205105146.B88105@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010203135902.M94275@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010203110403.048e78e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010204080917.049ecca0@localhost> <20010204162732.A50591@lpt.ens.fr> <95k10s$1bfc$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <95k10s$1bfc$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>; from naddy@mips.inka.de on Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 04:46:20PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christian Weisgerber said on Feb 4, 2001 at 16:46:20: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > I believe OpenBSD avoided the recent BIND bug, but they still bundle > > their version of BIND 4.x because they aren't satisfied about the > > security of later versions. Do they plan to work on a BIND > > substitute, > > The sentiment has been expressed that a BIND replacement ought to > be written, but I'm not aware of any actual plans from OpenBSD > developers to do so. Saw this somewhere recently: openbind.org was registered as a domain name by Todd Fries of OpenBSD on Feb 1. Doesn't mean there's already a project underway, of course. They probably wanted to avoid the openssh.org problem. > > or pick up djbdns? > > Given the license this is basically impossible. Well -- it doesn't seem worse than the original softupdates license. It would be good if he would liberalise the license -- or he could restrict his security guarantee only to tarballs personally signed by him, or find some other solution which will satisfy his security paranoia but allow others to fiddle with the code.... But I looked through the FreeBSD mailing list archives for djbdns, just for fun, and it's clear that while some people like djbdns, some are very negative about it -- often for reasons relating to the man, rather than the software itself. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 5 4:32:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B0D37B69E for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 04:32:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A4DE275A6; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 04:33:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9267C1D94; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 04:33:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 04:33:43 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Ceren Ercen Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Report from LinuxWorld Expo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 31 Jan 2001, Ceren Ercen wrote: :Well, I have to state that I'm distinctly dissapointed that I'm not there. :;) You still working for that little Linux outfit? :I could _double_ the traffic. Easy. Without blinking. :Lemme at 'em. *grin* Heh. :Ceren E. :FreeBSD's "Strange Attractor" :The daemonbabe that *can* operate a terminal. :p.s.: anyone wanna save me from this Turbolinux merger? aiiee. So, next Usenix are you STILL going to be working at that little Linux shop? Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 5 5: 6: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F17A37B491 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 05:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id BC9417567; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 05:07:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A66311D93; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 05:07:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 05:07:07 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ROFL! (Was: FreeBSD Security Advisory: FreeBSD-SA-01:20.egos) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010203025231.0499e790@localhost> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Brett Glass wrote: :ROFL! Did someone really ban critics (legitimate or not) from an :IRC channel? Katana banned me from #FreeBSD on efnet because I work for a Pentagon contractor, and she just couldn't stand the thought of being in the same channel as someone like me. I guess it never occured to her that there was a reason /ignore was coded into the protocol. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 5 5:55: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB2AD37B4EC for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 05:54:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id EE0567567; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 05:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD25D1D93; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 05:55:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 05:55:59 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: UNIX-like approach to software and system architecture In-Reply-To: <95k10s$1bfc$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, Christian Weisgerber wrote: :Rahul Siddharthan wrote: :> DJB himself seems to favour OpenBSD as an operating system. :OpenBSD doesn't seem to favor DJB's programs, though. And would anyone really want to see Theo and DJB engaged in a flamewar? You know it would happen. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 5 5:58:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8086E37B503; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 05:58:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA13374; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 06:57:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010205065652.04d81b40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 06:57:46 -0700 To: Siobhan Patricia Lynch From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NEABUG Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just went to that URL, and all I saw was the Apache test page.... --Brett At 07:52 PM 12/7/2000, Siobhan Patricia Lynch wrote: >ok, the website is now up at http://neabug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 5 5:59:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from superconductor.rush.net (superconductor.rush.net [208.9.155.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8920D37B491; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 05:59:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (trish@localhost) by superconductor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14505; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 08:58:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 08:58:40 -0500 (EST) From: Trish X-Sender: trish@superconductor.rush.net To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NEABUG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010205065652.04d81b40@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org yeah working on the site, hope to have it up soon again... On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > Just went to that URL, and all I saw was the Apache test page.... > > --Brett > > At 07:52 PM 12/7/2000, Siobhan Patricia Lynch wrote: > > >ok, the website is now up at http://neabug.org > __ Trish Lynch FreeBSD - The Power to Serve trish@bsdunix.net Rush Networking trish@rush.net VA Linux Systems trish@valinux.com O|S|D|N trish@osdn.com New England Area BSD Users Group trish@neabug.org --- "Why, do you like playing around with My, narrow scope of reality? I can feeling it all slipping, I think I'm breaking down." -Disturbed, Stupify To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 5 17: 9:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCD2D37B6A1 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 17:08:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA08325; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:03:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAF9aqmq; Mon Feb 5 18:02:55 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06221; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:08:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102060108.SAA06221@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: quote about open source To: kris@obsecurity.org (Kris Kennaway) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:08:46 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010203040747.B35712@xor.obsecurity.org> from "Kris Kennaway" at Feb 03, 2001 04:07:47 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > waving. Even today, unless you take your QED classes from an > > extremely enlightened professor, you are likely to not ever hear > > about Clifford algebras, and even get a theoretical physics > > degree, without laying your hands on this important tool. > > Umm, I'm not sure how you could learn QED without encountering a > clifford algebra. That's essentially the defining relation of spinor > fields (fermions), i.e. they carry a representation of the clifford > algebra: > > \{ \psi^\mu, \psi^\nu \} = \eta^{\mu\nu} > > Kris, who learned QED from a not very enlightened professor. My beard is showing, I think... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 5 17:40:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F7837B491 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 17:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA21667; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:34:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAJsaynQ; Mon Feb 5 18:33:56 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06828; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:39:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102060139.SAA06828@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: quote about open source To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:39:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010203131159.G94275@lpt.ens.fr> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Feb 03, 2001 01:11:59 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Open Source projects frequently discuss the evolution of their > > project; innovation really requires revolution, not evolution, > > for it to be innovation. > > > > Most innovation does not come out of the processes of large > > projects or companies, Open Source or commercial, academic or > > professional, research or project developement. It comes out > > of small groups, usually with 6 or fewer members, and usually > > driven by a goal that has been defined in advance. The small > > amount of innovation which doesn't fit this mold is accidental, > > serendipitous. > > I disagree with that. A truly revolutionary idea is always > "accidental, serendipitous". Of course, it seems to happen more > to some people than to others; that's a characteristic of their > personalities, that they don't think along conventional lines. As an example, Linux, 386BSD, and Apache all have their roots in very small, highly connected groups. At the early stages, these were revolutionary ideas, and they have collected much lint from their beginnings. Soft Updates came out of Ganger and Patt's leap-frogging of the USL patented Delayed Ordered Writes approach -- by quite a margin. Open Source is not really revolutionary. The valuation model is not really sustainable. Even now, we are seeing the formation of the immune response, and it's been gaining momentum. One only has to take a look at some of the needlessly complex RFC's being put out there for nominally "open" standards to see how companies are combatting being marginalized by the free stuff. Good enough is the enemy of better. If you want to trace it back, probably one of the turning points was the increase in complexity of the LDAP protocol. It was clearly an attempt by Netscape to control the playing field by controlling the minimum complexity needed to be implemented in order to play in that space. Microsoft and Sun have taken that ball and run with it, to the detriment of the industry. Some of the new "standards" are so complex that it's questionable whether a traditional Open Source approach could even field an entry. I'm rather convinced that the OpenLDAP project would not have been able to do a v3 implementation, except that it has a small, focussed team. It certainly would have failed, were it the size of a FreeBSD or a Linux. > But you cannot decide to have a revolutionary idea, and you > can't set up a small group of 6 people and tell them to have > a revolutionary idea. Either it comes or it doesn't. It may > well come when you're looking for something quite different. One or two people generally have the idea; either it occurs to one person, or it arises out of direct interaction between two or more actors. But an idea is a seed, not a revolution in the offing. To grow the seed into a revolution, requires gardners. > What your group of 6 people may do is develop a new and better > compression scheme, natural language processing system, whatever. > But that's evolution, not revolution. In hardware matters (new > kinds of storage media, new processes for fabricating chips, etc) > such advances seem to come from much larger, and very well > funded, groups. That's incrementalism. You really need to read "The Innovator's Dilemma". Large, successful companies, by their very nature, are not capable of making counter-intuitive leaps. The company structure is, in fact, rewarded for risk reduction, to the extent that it actually penalizes innovation. When disks went from 14 inches to 8 inches to 5 1/4 to 3.5 to 2.8... at each stage, the previous players were, without fail, marginalized or even went out of business. > Can you name any "revolutionary" ideas that actually came out of > small groups which were set up to look for revolutionary ideas, > or from individuals who planned to look for such ideas anyway? Lockheed skunk-works. Xerox PARC. IBM Almaden. MIT Media Lab. Martin-Marietta. Boeing. The Manhattan Project. The Chicago atomic pile. History is rife with small teams that have launched huge revolutions; some have even been very reluctant (e.g. Kepler and Brahe hated each other; Brahe actually died from a burst bladder because he refused to use the bathroom in Kepler's house). I seem to remember a couple of gentlemen who wrote under a shared penname of "Publius" ...The Federalist Papers. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 5 19:12: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dante.naver.co.id (unknown [202.155.86.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79DDE37B491 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 19:11:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by dante.naver.co.id (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 123065354C; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:11:55 +0700 (JAVT) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:11:54 +0700 From: John Indra To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: What topic? Message-ID: <20010206101154.D11011@office.naver.co.id> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: Mutt 1.2.5i on FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello folks... What conversation topic do you guys usually have in this mailing list? And for the reason to make my e-mail not a one liner, can anyone share their experience on how you become FreeBSD developer? Thanks /john To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 5 19:29:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E11137B401 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 19:28:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA09666; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 20:28:19 -0700 Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdBMxOia; Mon Feb 5 20:28:12 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA08814; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 20:28:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102060328.UAA08814@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: UNIX-like approach to software and system architecture To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 03:28:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010204080917.049ecca0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 04, 2001 08:14:38 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Interestingly, Theo De Raadt also seems to agree that djb's approach to > DNS daemons is more sensible and secure than ISC's. In his own words: I have to say that I understand Paul Vixie's decision inre: a closed mailing list, with subscription revenue. I think it's a good idea, from the perspecdtive that BIND has taken a huge amount of flack recently, not the least of which is the DNS outage at Microsoft, and unrelated to the BIND software. For large players, who rely on security through obscurity and have large deployment latencies, it makes sense to charge them for a seperate channel, that is unlikely to have the people who are causing the problems listening in for new cookbook fodder. Actually, SCO had a fix for this a long time ago, where they had the ability to permit particular programs to do things, like bind reserved ports, as an attribute of the program (VMS did this too, with its concept of "installed images"), and not require that such programs run as root. Adding this feature to FreeBSD would go a long way toward resolving the "root exploit" problem. As far as DJB's DNS: I have a fundamental disagreement with his model, in that I believe that all data modifications should be done via a protocol, and he actually locks down the data, prohibiting the historical master/slave relationship, and updates. I firmly believe that, going forward, everything will need to be protocol driven, since it gives the fastest turn-around (and in fact I have modified my local copy of bind to permit creation of new zones via DNSUPDAT). It seems to me that what you lose with his model is nowhere near worth it, to gain so little. I also don't believe that the claim to increased security has really been backed by a formal analysis. At the level of DNS, you really need to not just audit, you need to do completeness proofs. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 5 19:40: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BD5A37B4EC for ; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 19:39:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA05134; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 20:35:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAUvaa6j; Mon Feb 5 20:34:54 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA09055; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 20:39:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102060339.UAA09055@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: D J Bernstein (was Re: quote about open source) To: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 03:39:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <14972.18243.202141.968666@guru.mired.org> from "Mike Meyer" at Feb 03, 2001 12:00:35 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Looks obvious, but why didn't sendmail and bind get there first? > > To answer the last question - because they were written when only > responsible adults had internet access, or "when we were all friends" > (I think those are Eric Fair's words). Yes. SMTP servers are _supposed to_ relay mail by default; it's part of making the net robust against single points of failure, and transient outages. The same goes for DNS zone transfers, actually: let there be stealth secondaries, the more places my data is backed up, the better. The level of maturity of the average Internet user these days is way, way below what it was, back when the NSF would prosecute you for commercial use of your net connection. > As for the approach, I'm pretty sure that those aren't original to > qmail. WN & GN come to mind. There's at least one tool - I believe > it's in the TIS fwtk - that ran an smtp daemon to accept messages and > drop them in a queue, then ran sendmail to deliver them - the > performance pretty much sucked, though. DJB was the first person to > apply them to a publicly released MTA, though. Actually, I'm pretty sure MMDF (Multi-Channel Memorandum Distribution Facility) and UUCP used that approach, too. So did Greg Haerr's UCSD email system, back in the 70's (sending and getting mail were totally seperate programs -- had to be, to run in small model on a PDP). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 0: 9:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F344837B401 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #3) id 14Q385-000G7T-00; Tue, 06 Feb 2001 08:05:37 +0000 Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:05:37 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: D J Bernstein (was Re: quote about open source) Message-ID: <20010206080537.Y70673@hand.dotat.at> References: <14972.18243.202141.968666@guru.mired.org> <200102060339.UAA09055@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200102060339.UAA09055@usr08.primenet.com> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > MMDF (Multi-Channel Memorandum Distribution Facility) Within Demon (which, because they started off with SCO many years ago, still use MMDF in places despite a concerted effort to move to Exim) MMDF is sometimes known as the Machine Munching Destruction Facility. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at "Plan 9 deals with the resurrection of the dead." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 0:40:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F5E837B401 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:40:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #3) id 14Q3dx-000GC3-00; Tue, 06 Feb 2001 08:38:33 +0000 Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:38:33 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX-like approach to software and system architecture Message-ID: <20010206083833.Z70673@hand.dotat.at> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010204080917.049ecca0@localhost> <200102060328.UAA08814@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200102060328.UAA08814@usr08.primenet.com> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > >Actually, SCO had a fix for this a long time ago, where they >had the ability to permit particular programs to do things, >like bind reserved ports, as an attribute of the program (VMS >did this too, with its concept of "installed images"), and >not require that such programs run as root. Adding this >feature to FreeBSD would go a long way toward resolving the >"root exploit" problem. That's what TrustedBSD is all about. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at "Well, as long as they can think we'll have our problems. But those whom we're using cannot think." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 0:55:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E6237B503 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:54:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #3) id 14Q3sl-000GF9-00; Tue, 06 Feb 2001 08:53:51 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX-like approach to software and system architecture References: <20010205105146.B88105@lpt.ens.fr> In-Reply-To: <20010205105146.B88105@lpt.ens.fr> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 08:53:51 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > But I looked through the FreeBSD mailing list archives for djbdns, > just for fun, and it's clear that while some people like djbdns, > some are very negative about it -- often for reasons relating to the > man, rather than the software itself. Well, some of the reasons that I don't like it are: * it's full of magic numbers (about five thousand of them) * it contains almost no useful comments * it has an impossible licence Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at "Well, as long as they can think we'll have our problems. But those whom we're using cannot think." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 1:11:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27E8237B699 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:11:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflexcom.com ([216.196.73.168]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:09:10 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflexcom.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f1699ij78638; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:09:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:09:43 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX-like approach to software and system architecture Message-ID: <20010206010943.H91447@rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflex> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010204080917.049ecca0@localhost> <200102060328.UAA08814@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200102060328.UAA08814@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 03:28:44AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 03:28:44AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: [snip] > Actually, SCO had a fix for this a long time ago, where they > had the ability to permit particular programs to do things, > like bind reserved ports, as an attribute of the program (VMS > did this too, with its concept of "installed images"), and > not require that such programs run as root. Adding this > feature to FreeBSD would go a long way toward resolving the > "root exploit" problem. I think an even better fix is the option to do away with the privileged ports altogether. Priv'ed ports also date back to the time when "we were all friends..." Well, a lot of the idea of privileged ports was that we are at least friends with the other administrators, not necessarily their users. On the modern 'Net (Internet and most intranets too) where any luser 0wnz their own box, the idea that one can trust a privileged port more than any other an unknown machine is ludicrous. On a machine dedicated to doing DNS, webserving, or even a single-user desktop, why even bother with privileged ports? It just makes you run something like a DNS server at higher privs that it really should need. A sysctl or even a kernel option to turn off privileged ports would be neat (and I was for some reason under the impression there was one until I actually tried to find one the other day), but I'm afraid the concept of privileged ports run very deeply in UNIX-type OSes and may be hard "to just turn off." Before someone brings it up, yes, privileged ports still do have a place on isolated clusters of multi-user machines under uniform administration or where the admins still trust each other. Yes, allowing unprivileged users to <1024 ports does allow them to do things like spoof your DNS server should they crack the box and crash the DNS. But if they crashed it and cracked your box as root, they could have a lot more. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 1:22:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC22037B6A1 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:22:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f1693HE17973 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 22:03:17 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 22:22:09 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: laptops - perhaps DELL Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I lusted over Murray Stokely's laptop at BSDCon 2000. He loaned it to me so I could convert my FreshPorts presentation from PowerPoint to, ummm, whatever it was that came with Star Office. It was a fine looking screen and seemed quite solid. Murray just pointed me at: where the $2049 price tag for a 700MHz processor, 128MB ram, 10GB disk and a 15" screen looks pretty good to me. I don't think I'll need that MS Works bundle, so I'm sure I'll get a hefty discount (not) if they take that off. Do they preinstall? Actually, I'd be inclined to install myself.... There's something about knowing exactly what's on the box that gives me a better feeling. Any opinions? Any contacts at DELL? -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 6:15:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6BD437B69E for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 06:14:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B297F5761A; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:15:26 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:15:26 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Message-ID: <20010206081526.E98288@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 10:22:09PM +1300 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 10:22:09PM +1300, Dan Langille scribbled: | I lusted over Murray Stokely's laptop at BSDCon 2000. He loaned it to | me so I could convert my FreshPorts presentation from PowerPoint to, | ummm, whatever it was that came with Star Office. It was a fine looking | screen and seemed quite solid. Murray just pointed me at: | | | | where the $2049 price tag for a 700MHz processor, 128MB ram, 10GB | disk and a 15" screen looks pretty good to me. I don't think I'll need | that MS Works bundle, so I'm sure I'll get a hefty discount (not) if they | take that off. Do they preinstall? Actually, I'd be inclined to install | myself.... There's something about knowing exactly what's on the box | that gives me a better feeling. | | Any opinions? Any contacts at DELL? The following is seemingly the consensus of -mobile: Pick between the following with 1 or 2 preferred - 1. VAIO Superslims or Large Bricks 2. Dell Inspiron 5000 or 7000 3. Toshiba Porteges and Bricks 4. IBM X20 and A20 1 and 2 are comparable in price. And both 1 & 2 are what the majority of FreeBSD work is done one. (simply because that's what the hackers who code the needed support work on.) It depends on whether you want a large brick that does it all, or a compact one with smaller screen size and no cdrom. (Vaio has a built-in fxp0, so you don't need ethernet pcmcia cards.) 3 and 4 are novel, and pretty usable. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 6:30:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4084C37B491 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 06:30:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00852; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:29:49 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010206072900.051d8d70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 07:29:38 -0700 To: "Michael C . Wu" , Dan Langille From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010206081526.E98288@peorth.iteration.net> References: <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org> <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:15 AM 2/6/2001, Michael C . Wu wrote: >The following is seemingly the consensus of -mobile: >Pick between the following with 1 or 2 preferred - >1. VAIO Superslims or Large Bricks >2. Dell Inspiron 5000 or 7000 >3. Toshiba Porteges and Bricks >4. IBM X20 and A20 On which of these -- if any -- does suspend/resume work properly? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 6:34: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (pugetsound.net [208.240.196.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA82B37B65D for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 06:33:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from wiegand.org [208.194.173.26] by pioneernet.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id AC09A29013E; Tue, 06 Feb 2001 06:36:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3A800BF7.A1CE2A78@wiegand.org> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 06:36:39 -0800 From: Chip X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL References: <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > > I lusted over Murray Stokely's laptop at BSDCon 2000. He loaned it to > me so I could convert my FreshPorts presentation from PowerPoint to, > ummm, whatever it was that came with Star Office. It was a fine looking > screen and seemed quite solid. Murray just pointed me at: > > > > where the $2049 price tag for a 700MHz processor, 128MB ram, 10GB > disk and a 15" screen looks pretty good to me. I don't think I'll need > that MS Works bundle, so I'm sure I'll get a hefty discount (not) if they > take that off. Do they preinstall? Actually, I'd be inclined to install > myself.... There's something about knowing exactly what's on the box > that gives me a better feeling. > > Any opinions? Any contacts at DELL? > > -- > Dan Langille > pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org I have 3 Dell Inspiron8000's at work, they were brought in for a particular Linux app. I have been unable to get X installed on the I-8000. I have tried every monitor choice on the list for Dell. We then bought a Acer 739 and it works like a charm. The Dells are being returned to Dell, we'll never buy those again for anything except winblows. I did get X installed on an older Dell, I don't recall the model right now, but it was probably about two years old. I have heard the Acer and IBM laptops are probably the better choices for *nix running X. -- Chip Wiegand Alternative Operating Systems www.wiegand.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 6:39: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF36537B491 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 06:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00945; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:38:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010206073753.051d9100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 07:38:30 -0700 To: Chip , dan@langille.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3A800BF7.A1CE2A78@wiegand.org> References: <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:36 AM 2/6/2001, Chip wrote: >I have 3 Dell Inspiron8000's at work, they were brought >in for a particular Linux app. I have been unable to get >X installed on the I-8000. Have you tried the Xi Graphics laptop X server? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 10:15:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58FA037B503 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:15:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebsd.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.207] helo=chemicalterrorism.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14QCdj-000BNN-0C for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 18:15:07 +0000 Received: from sycho (sycho.chemicalterrorism.com [192.168.0.2]) by chemicalterrorism.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1E850F43A for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 18:13:50 +0000 (GMT) From: "Si." To: Subject: RE: laptops - perhaps DELL Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 18:15:09 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3A800BF7.A1CE2A78@wiegand.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ooops. I've just taken up on the inspiron 3800 offer dell has been doing for the express purpose of dual booting windows and freebsd. Has any had any perticular problems with this model of notebook ? Let me know as there is still time to cancel my order . Si. -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Chip Sent: 06 February 2001 14:37 To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Dan Langille wrote: > > I lusted over Murray Stokely's laptop at BSDCon 2000. He loaned it to > me so I could convert my FreshPorts presentation from PowerPoint to, > ummm, whatever it was that came with Star Office. It was a fine looking > screen and seemed quite solid. Murray just pointed me at: > > > > where the $2049 price tag for a 700MHz processor, 128MB ram, 10GB > disk and a 15" screen looks pretty good to me. I don't think I'll need > that MS Works bundle, so I'm sure I'll get a hefty discount (not) if they > take that off. Do they preinstall? Actually, I'd be inclined to install > myself.... There's something about knowing exactly what's on the box > that gives me a better feeling. > > Any opinions? Any contacts at DELL? > > -- > Dan Langille > pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org I have 3 Dell Inspiron8000's at work, they were brought in for a particular Linux app. I have been unable to get X installed on the I-8000. I have tried every monitor choice on the list for Dell. We then bought a Acer 739 and it works like a charm. The Dells are being returned to Dell, we'll never buy those again for anything except winblows. I did get X installed on an older Dell, I don't recall the model right now, but it was probably about two years old. I have heard the Acer and IBM laptops are probably the better choices for *nix running X. -- Chip Wiegand Alternative Operating Systems www.wiegand.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 10:20:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CDE937B401 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:19:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14304; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 12:19:53 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 12:19:52 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Chip Cc: dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL In-Reply-To: <3A800BF7.A1CE2A78@wiegand.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org : :I have 3 Dell Inspiron8000's at work, they were brought :in for a particular Linux app. I have been unable to get :X installed on the I-8000. I have tried every monitor :choice on the list for Dell. We then bought a Acer 739 You're doing something wrong then. A cow-orker is running RedHat 7 on a Dell Inspiron 8000, with no problems. Shall I ask how he's got X configured for you? David w To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 10:47:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.102.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B0CC37B503 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:47:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.11.1/8.11.0) id f16IlNA33498 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:47:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:47:23 -0800 From: Matthew Hunt To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sponsorship Message-ID: <20010206104723.A33287@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <20010206183153.RTAV27416.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@readysetgambling.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010206183153.RTAV27416.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@readysetgambling.com>; from webmaster@readysetgambling.com on Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 01:31:39PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 01:31:39PM -0500, Webmaster wrote to freebsd-questions: > I was checking out your site, and think that we could form a > co-beneficial relationship. We currently have a list of over 36,000 highly > targeted, conversion delivering gamblers, and are looking for a sponsor for > our next newsletter. Let me know what needs to be done to have you sponsor > it. You could view our last newsletter at: Surely there are other operating systems that would have more appeal for people who like to gamble... -- Matthew Hunt * Science rules. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 11:41:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C9AF37B491 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 11:41:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f16JMjE22218; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:22:45 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200102061922.f16JMjE22218@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Matthew Hunt Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:41:34 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Sponsorship Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <20010206104723.A33287@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <20010206183153.RTAV27416.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@readysetgambling.com>; from webmaster@readysetgambling.com on Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 01:31:39PM -0500 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 6 Feb 2001, at 10:47, Matthew Hunt wrote: > Surely there are other operating systems that would have more appeal for > people who like to gamble... Heh... good point.... -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 11:47:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from meow.osd.bsdi.com (meow.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE26C37B401 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 11:46:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by meow.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f16Jjd345037; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 11:45:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3A800BF7.A1CE2A78@wiegand.org> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 11:46:41 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Chip Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, dan@langille.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 06-Feb-01 Chip wrote: > Dan Langille wrote: >> >> I lusted over Murray Stokely's laptop at BSDCon 2000. He loaned it to >> me so I could convert my FreshPorts presentation from PowerPoint to, >> ummm, whatever it was that came with Star Office. It was a fine looking >> screen and seemed quite solid. Murray just pointed me at: >> >> >> >> where the $2049 price tag for a 700MHz processor, 128MB ram, 10GB >> disk and a 15" screen looks pretty good to me. I don't think I'll need >> that MS Works bundle, so I'm sure I'll get a hefty discount (not) if they >> take that off. Do they preinstall? Actually, I'd be inclined to install >> myself.... There's something about knowing exactly what's on the box >> that gives me a better feeling. >> >> Any opinions? Any contacts at DELL? >> >> -- >> Dan Langille >> pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org > > I have 3 Dell Inspiron8000's at work, they were brought > in for a particular Linux app. I have been unable to get > X installed on the I-8000. I have tried every monitor > choice on the list for Dell. We then bought a Acer 739 > and it works like a charm. The Dells are being returned > to Dell, we'll never buy those again for anything except > winblows. I did get X installed on an older Dell, I don't > recall the model right now, but it was probably about two > years old. > I have heard the Acer and IBM laptops are probably the > better choices for *nix running X. Use X 4. Works like a charm on my i5000e. Note that it doesn't quite grok the LCD's properly, so you have to add bogus refresh rates in the monitor section for it to work. Once you've done that it works fine however. Mine runs X-cvs (post 4.0.2) at 1600x1200 without any problems. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 12: 5:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610A937B491 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 12:04:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.1.121] (warp-core.skynet.be [195.238.2.25]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.08) with ESMTP id f16K4BN14862; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 21:04:12 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010206081526.E98288@peorth.iteration.net> References: <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org> <20010206081526.E98288@peorth.iteration.net> Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:39:31 +0100 To: "Michael C . Wu" , Dan Langille From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:15 AM -0600 2001/2/6, Michael C . Wu wrote: > The following is seemingly the consensus of -mobile: > Pick between the following with 1 or 2 preferred - > 1. VAIO Superslims or Large Bricks > 2. Dell Inspiron 5000 or 7000 > 3. Toshiba Porteges and Bricks > 4. IBM X20 and A20 Hmm. I was seriously considering installing FreeBSD on my wife's Compaq Armada 4100T when she makes the upgrade to a new laptop later this year, and then using the older machine as a simple server around the house. Do you have any advice on whether or not this is likely to work? -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 17:27:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-56-129.knology.net [24.214.56.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2912437B491 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:27:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f171RBN94038; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:27:12 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200102070127.f171RBN94038@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL In-reply-to: Message from "Dan Langille" of "Tue, 06 Feb 2001 22:22:09 +1300." <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 19:27:11 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Dan Langille" writes: > I lusted over Murray Stokely's laptop at BSDCon 2000. He loaned it to > me so I could convert my FreshPorts presentation from PowerPoint to, > ummm, whatever it was that came with Star Office. It was a fine looking > screen and seemed quite solid. Murray just pointed me at: I've been lusting for a laptop too. Then decided a 500 MHz 256MB 20G Apple Powerbook G3 for $2200 was a killer deal. Ordered one the first week of January to learn a week later that Apple had depleted all inventory of that model. Declined a 400 MHz for $2000 but got in line for a Titanium G4 400 MHz for $2600. Still waiting. The original ETA was Feb 5. Dealers are just now getting their first demo units. Expect MacOS X will be the next best thing to Genuine BSD. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 17:35: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (pop3.cornetbayco.com [208.240.196.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE2A37B401 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:34:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from wiegand.org [208.194.173.26] by pioneernet.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A6EBE0F00CC; Tue, 06 Feb 2001 17:37:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3A80A6DA.7408EF6E@wiegand.org> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 17:37:30 -0800 From: Chip X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL References: <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010206073753.051d9100@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 07:36 AM 2/6/2001, Chip wrote: > > >I have 3 Dell Inspiron8000's at work, they were brought > >in for a particular Linux app. I have been unable to get > >X installed on the I-8000. > > Have you tried the Xi Graphics laptop X server? > > --Brett Naw, we just bought Acer 739 and 737 models, they work just fine with the standard X install. -- Chip Wiegand Alternative Operating Systems www.wiegand.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 17:35:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (asbestos.linuxcare.com.au [203.17.0.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DBD237B4EC for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:35:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id f171aWs33177; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:36:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:36:32 +1100 From: Greg Lehey To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Message-ID: <20010207123632.B33063@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org> <20010206081526.E98288@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20010206081526.E98288@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 08:15:26AM -0600 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 6 February 2001 at 8:15:26 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: > On Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 10:22:09PM +1300, Dan Langille scribbled: >> I lusted over Murray Stokely's laptop at BSDCon 2000. He loaned it to >> me so I could convert my FreshPorts presentation from PowerPoint to, >> ummm, whatever it was that came with Star Office. It was a fine looking >> screen and seemed quite solid. Murray just pointed me at: >> >> >> >> where the $2049 price tag for a 700MHz processor, 128MB ram, 10GB >> disk and a 15" screen looks pretty good to me. I don't think I'll need >> that MS Works bundle, so I'm sure I'll get a hefty discount (not) if they >> take that off. Do they preinstall? Actually, I'd be inclined to install >> myself.... There's something about knowing exactly what's on the box >> that gives me a better feeling. >> >> Any opinions? Any contacts at DELL? > > The following is seemingly the consensus of -mobile: > Pick between the following with 1 or 2 preferred - > ... > > 4. IBM X20 and A20 Note that some BIOS revisions on these models don't work AT ALL with FreeBSD. In fact, the mere presence of a FreeBSD partition causes them to go catatonic. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 17:36:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (asbestos.linuxcare.com.au [203.17.0.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BD1037B401 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id f171bOp33189; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:37:24 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:37:24 +1100 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Message-ID: <20010207123724.C33063@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org> <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org> <20010206081526.E98288@peorth.iteration.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010206072900.051d8d70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010206072900.051d8d70@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 07:29:38AM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 6 February 2001 at 7:29:38 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:15 AM 2/6/2001, Michael C . Wu wrote: > >> The following is seemingly the consensus of -mobile: >> Pick between the following with 1 or 2 preferred - >> 1. VAIO Superslims or Large Bricks >> 2. Dell Inspiron 5000 or 7000 >> 3. Toshiba Porteges and Bricks >> 4. IBM X20 and A20 > > On which of these -- if any -- does suspend/resume > work properly? It works fine on my Inspiron 7500. I'd expect the other Inspirons to be OK as well. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 17:37:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (pop3.polarbeargallery.com [208.240.196.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8D037B4EC for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:36:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from wiegand.org [208.194.173.26] by pioneernet.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A76D107700A2; Tue, 06 Feb 2001 17:39:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3A80A75D.F27331AC@wiegand.org> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 17:39:41 -0800 From: Chip X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Scheidt Cc: dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt wrote: > > : > :I have 3 Dell Inspiron8000's at work, they were brought > :in for a particular Linux app. I have been unable to get > :X installed on the I-8000. I have tried every monitor > :choice on the list for Dell. We then bought a Acer 739 > > You're doing something wrong then. A cow-orker is running RedHat 7 on > a Dell Inspiron 8000, with no problems. Shall I ask how he's got X > configured for you? > > David > w I'd be interested to know what he picked on the screen where you have to pick a monitor. That is where I had the problem. I tried every Dell monitor listed, plus all the custom monitors, and none would work. Though it's probably a moot point now, as we are returning the Dell's and are buying Acer, have bought 4 this week, and about 10 more in a month or so. -- Chip Wiegand Alternative Operating Systems www.wiegand.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 17:38:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (asbestos.linuxcare.com.au [203.17.0.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABFA437B491 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:38:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id f171dgP33223; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:39:42 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:39:41 +1100 From: Greg Lehey To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Jerry Dunham Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Message-ID: <20010207123941.D33063@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 10:22:09PM +1300 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 6 February 2001 at 22:22:09 +1300, Dan Langille wrote: > I lusted over Murray Stokely's laptop at BSDCon 2000. He loaned it to > me so I could convert my FreshPorts presentation from PowerPoint to, > ummm, whatever it was that came with Star Office. It was a fine looking > screen and seemed quite solid. Murray just pointed me at: > > > > where the $2049 price tag for a 700MHz processor, 128MB ram, 10GB > disk and a 15" screen looks pretty good to me. I don't think I'll need > that MS Works bundle, so I'm sure I'll get a hefty discount (not) if they > take that off. Do they preinstall? Actually, I'd be inclined to install > myself.... There's something about knowing exactly what's on the box > that gives me a better feeling. > > Any opinions? Any contacts at DELL? I'm copying Jerry Dunham, who lurks on some of the mailing lists. He used to be in charge of engineering maintenance for Dell laptops, and may have some input. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 18:16:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4C6137B491 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 18:16:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6C880239AAC; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 18:16:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 18:16:28 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Brett Glass Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Message-ID: <20010206181628.G656@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org> <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org> <20010206081526.E98288@peorth.iteration.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010206072900.051d8d70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010206072900.051d8d70@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 07:29:38AM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-02-06 07:29 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:15 AM 2/6/2001, Michael C . Wu wrote: > > >The following is seemingly the consensus of -mobile: > >Pick between the following with 1 or 2 preferred - > >1. VAIO Superslims or Large Bricks > >2. Dell Inspiron 5000 or 7000 > >3. Toshiba Porteges and Bricks > >4. IBM X20 and A20 > > On which of these -- if any -- does suspend/resume > work properly? The VAIO Z505s suspend/resume to RAM just fine, and to disk if you've got a DOS partition. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Failing sardine factory cans employees! mailto:gsutter@zer0.org http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 18:22:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AB9B37B401 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 18:22:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f1723AE27360; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:03:10 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200102070203.f1723AE27360@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Gregory Sutter Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:21:57 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <20010206181628.G656@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010206072900.051d8d70@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 07:29:38AM -0700 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 6 Feb 2001, at 18:16, Gregory Sutter wrote: > The VAIO Z505s suspend/resume to RAM just fine, and to disk if you've > got a DOS partition. Althought the VAIO's seem to be popular at BSDi, I'm told the keyboard is smallish (or is that the keys?). And they seem, umm, rather fragile. Anyone concur? -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 18:23:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8694737B401 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 18:23:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010207022339.CQAE20293.femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com>; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 18:23:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3A80B1AA.6F7D45E3@home.com> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 18:23:39 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Cc: dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL References: <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org> <3A800BF7.A1CE2A78@wiegand.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip wrote: > > Dan Langille wrote: > > > > I lusted over Murray Stokely's laptop at BSDCon 2000. He loaned it to > > me so I could convert my FreshPorts presentation from PowerPoint to, > > ummm, whatever it was that came with Star Office. It was a fine looking > > screen and seemed quite solid. Murray just pointed me at: > > > > > > > > where the $2049 price tag for a 700MHz processor, 128MB ram, 10GB > > disk and a 15" screen looks pretty good to me. I don't think I'll need > > that MS Works bundle, so I'm sure I'll get a hefty discount (not) if they > > take that off. Do they preinstall? Actually, I'd be inclined to install > > myself.... There's something about knowing exactly what's on the box > > that gives me a better feeling. > > > > Any opinions? Any contacts at DELL? > > > > -- > > Dan Langille > > pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org > > I have 3 Dell Inspiron8000's at work, they were brought > in for a particular Linux app. I have been unable to get > X installed on the I-8000. I have tried every monitor > choice on the list for Dell. We then bought a Acer 739 > and it works like a charm. The Dells are being returned > to Dell, we'll never buy those again for anything except > winblows. I did get X installed on an older Dell, I don't > recall the model right now, but it was probably about two > years old. > I have heard the Acer and IBM laptops are probably the > better choices for *nix running X. > > -- > Chip Wiegand > Alternative Operating Systems > www.wiegand.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message I have an Acer 602TER. FreeBSD and OpenBSD have worked very well on it. Suspend-resume works properly with 4.2-release. And the built in cdrw and ethernet is nice. All for $2500. Rob. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 18:31:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEDCB37B401 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 18:31:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA50063; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:31:19 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:31:18 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: David Kelly Cc: dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL In-Reply-To: <200102070127.f171RBN94038@grumpy.dyndns.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 6 Feb 2001, David Kelly wrote: :> screen and seemed quite solid. Murray just pointed me at: : :I've been lusting for a laptop too. Then decided a 500 MHz 256MB 20G :Apple Powerbook G3 for $2200 was a killer deal. Ordered one the first :week of January to learn a week later that Apple had depleted all :inventory of that model. Declined a 400 MHz for $2000 but got in line :for a Titanium G4 400 MHz for $2600. Still waiting. The original ETA :was Feb 5. Dealers are just now getting their first demo units. I'm considering on of htese. Maybe I should order now to get one by the time I can afford it... -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 19:18:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E66E037B491 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (dialup268.brussels2.skynet.be [195.238.24.12]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.08) with ESMTP id f173I6N26673; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 04:18:06 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200102070127.f171RBN94038@grumpy.dyndns.org> References: <200102070127.f171RBN94038@grumpy.dyndns.org> Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 04:16:18 +0100 To: David Kelly , dan@langille.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:27 PM -0600 2001/2/6, David Kelly wrote: > Declined a 400 MHz for $2000 but got in line > for a Titanium G4 400 MHz for $2600. Still waiting. The original ETA > was Feb 5. Dealers are just now getting their first demo units. I just recently ordered a TiBook/500 from a local dealer over here. ETA is 15 Feb. We'll see if/when it actually comes in. > Expect MacOS X will be the next best thing to Genuine BSD. It should be pretty good. IMO, it's the last chance for Apple to deliver on a "real" OS with pre-emptive multi-tasking, multi-user, protected memory, etc... features but with the kind of ease-of-use that you expect from a Macintosh. Now, I know that I'll have to get VirtualPC or RealPC for this thing, for the few programs I need to run that don't have Mac equivalents -- does anyone know how well they perform on a G4/500 class machine, relative to actual x86-based hardware of various speeds? Oh, and this was really funny -- I was in a PC computer store the other day, looking for a replacement AC adaptor for my wife's Compaq Armada 4100, and also inquiring about the local (Belgian) availability of Sony Vaio laptops. Turns out that there aren't any Belgian distributors of Sony Vaio laptops, but this guy said that if I was looking for a very thin and light laptop with a lot of power, there was this new laptop called the PowerBook G4 that was going to be available soon in this computer store across the road.... My wife, being a died-in-the-wool Microsoft hater, and yet convinced that she has no choice but to run x86-based hardware and Microsoft OSes so that she can have full access to the programs she wants/needs, was *not* happy when I told her this story.... ;-) -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 19:24: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3A537B503 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:23:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4EE9E57621; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 21:24:24 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 21:24:24 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Dan Langille Cc: Gregory Sutter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Message-ID: <20010206212424.B12713@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Dan Langille , Gregory Sutter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010206072900.051d8d70@localhost>; <20010206181628.G656@klapaucius.zer0.org> <200102070203.f1723AE27360@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200102070203.f1723AE27360@ns1.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:21:57PM +1300 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:21:57PM +1300, Dan Langille scribbled: | On 6 Feb 2001, at 18:16, Gregory Sutter wrote: | > The VAIO Z505s suspend/resume to RAM just fine, and to disk if you've | > got a DOS partition. | Althought the VAIO's seem to be popular at BSDi, I'm told the keyboard | is smallish (or is that the keys?). And they seem, umm, rather fragile. Same size as all the other simliar sized laptops. i.e. The superslim z505* has the same sized keys as small porteges and x20's. The larger ones have full sized keyboards. | Anyone concur? Never. :) The aluminum case is very durable, and I beat my laptop daily by throwing it around unprotected inside my backpack. (Now, titanium powerbooks...) The connection ports, including ethernet stuff, are quite durable... -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 19:25:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF90C37B491 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:24:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 89D9B57621; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 21:25:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 21:25:29 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Greg Lehey Cc: Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Message-ID: <20010206212529.C12713@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Greg Lehey , Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200102060903.f1693HE17973@ns1.unixathome.org> <20010206081526.E98288@peorth.iteration.net> <20010207123632.B33063@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010207123632.B33063@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 12:36:32PM +1100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 12:36:32PM +1100, Greg Lehey scribbled: | On Tuesday, 6 February 2001 at 8:15:26 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: | > 4. IBM X20 and A20 | | Note that some BIOS revisions on these models don't work AT ALL with | FreeBSD. In fact, the mere presence of a FreeBSD partition causes | them to go catatonic. Newer reports on -mobile say that IBM secretly fixed the problems in newer versions of X20 and A20 BIOS'es -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 20:59: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from silby.com (cb34181-c.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.183.3.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F92E37B699 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:58:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16147 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Feb 2001 04:58:49 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 7 Feb 2001 04:58:49 -0000 Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 22:58:49 -0600 (CST) From: Mike Silbersack To: Subject: Improved IDS capabilities Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was reading tonight, and came across an interesting idea that could probably be incorporated into FreeBSD called "Fonerwall". Has anyone else looked into how difficult this would be to implement? Although the time spent would be great, the benefits seem to be enormous. And explanation of the technology is given here: http://somethingawful.efront.com/jeffk/dr-episode1/page-02.htm Mike "Silby" Silbersack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 21: 0:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from meow.osd.bsdi.com (meow.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24AC037B491 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 21:00:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by meow.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f174wk358356; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:58:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010207123724.C33063@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 20:59:54 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Dan Langille , "Michael C . Wu" , Brett Glass Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 07-Feb-01 Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 6 February 2001 at 7:29:38 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >> At 07:15 AM 2/6/2001, Michael C . Wu wrote: >> >>> The following is seemingly the consensus of -mobile: >>> Pick between the following with 1 or 2 preferred - >>> 1. VAIO Superslims or Large Bricks >>> 2. Dell Inspiron 5000 or 7000 >>> 3. Toshiba Porteges and Bricks >>> 4. IBM X20 and A20 >> >> On which of these -- if any -- does suspend/resume >> work properly? > > It works fine on my Inspiron 7500. I'd expect the other Inspirons to > be OK as well. The 5000e has a busted APM BIOS, so APM doesn't work with it. ACPI works, well, it works as well in -current as it does for anyone else, which is to say it is a work in progress. :) > Greg -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 21:27:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97B8D37B401 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 21:27:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA12252; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 22:27:24 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010206222532.045b4270@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 22:27:17 -0700 To: dan@langille.org, Gregory Sutter From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200102070203.f1723AE27360@ns1.unixathome.org> References: <20010206181628.G656@klapaucius.zer0.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010206072900.051d8d70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:21 PM 2/6/2001, Dan Langille wrote: >Althought the VAIO's seem to be popular at BSDi, I'm told the keyboard >is smallish (or is that the keys?). And they seem, umm, rather fragile. >Anyone concur? The keys have a short travel distance. I've been boycotting the VAIOs due to Sony's attempt to fob off their copy-protected "Memory Stick" media on consumers. The new VAIO laptops all come with the socket for it, and the copy protection mechanism, whether you want them to or not. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 6 22:56:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (smtp.globalsupremacy.com [208.240.196.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A80E037B401 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 22:56:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from wiegand.org [208.194.173.26] by pioneernet.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A2401E100C2; Tue, 06 Feb 2001 22:59:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3A80F22D.76AD5688@wiegand.org> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 22:58:54 -0800 From: Chip X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: I tried linux, rpm's are dreadful Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I had to set up a laptop at work recently, with Redhat 7.0. I then proceeded to install kde 2, and the list of dependencies was at least 25 files! No way am I going to go searching for all of those and spend hours installing them! How can anyone in their right mind 'like' that system? Just my rant for the day, I don't do this too often... -- Chip Wiegand Alternative Operating Systems www.wiegand.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 2: 6:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0669537B401 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 02:06:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C6096239A95; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 02:06:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 02:06:03 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Mike Silbersack Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Improved IDS capabilities Message-ID: <20010207020603.H656@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from silby@silby.com on Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 10:58:49PM -0600 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-02-06 22:58 -0600, Mike Silbersack wrote: > I was reading tonight, and came across an interesting idea that could > probably be incorporated into FreeBSD called "Fonerwall". Has anyone else > looked into how difficult this would be to implement? Although the time > spent would be great, the benefits seem to be enormous. > > And explanation of the technology is given here: > > http://somethingawful.efront.com/jeffk/dr-episode1/page-02.htm I enjoyed reading about Illiad's contribution to it. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Only two things are infinite, the mailto:gsutter@zer0.org universe and human stupidity, and I'm http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ not sure about the former. hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD - Albert Einstein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 2:44:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.sunflower.com (smtp.sunflower.com [24.124.0.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A4B37B401 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 02:43:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from treznor (dv016s59.lawrence.ks.us [24.124.59.16]) by smtp.sunflower.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA15235 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 04:42:52 -0600 Message-ID: <000801c090f2$21b26a40$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> From: "Tyler K McGeorge" To: Subject: Good Registrar? Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 04:38:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C090BF.D6E59FA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C090BF.D6E59FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anybody know a good US .net Registrar? I am looking for a cheap and = reliable one. Cheap being primary factor. By the way, I thought I'd ask this list, since I'm sure a couple of you = have done this before... Doh! Ty ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C090BF.D6E59FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anybody know a good US .net Registrar? = I am looking=20 for a cheap and reliable one. Cheap being primary factor.
 
By the way, I thought I'd ask this = list, since I'm=20 sure a couple of you have done this before...
 
Doh!
Ty
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C090BF.D6E59FA0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 2:52: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC79F37B401 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 02:51:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from xor.obsecurity.org ([64.165.226.103]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G8D00786VD15K@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 02:48:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by xor.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6F97C66B62; Wed, 07 Feb 2001 02:51:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 02:51:20 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: Good Registrar? In-reply-to: <000801c090f2$21b26a40$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org>; from treznor@sunflower.com on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:38:38AM -0600 To: Tyler K McGeorge Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <20010207025120.A24017@mollari.cthul.hu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IJpNTDwzlM2Ie8A6" Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: <000801c090f2$21b26a40$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --IJpNTDwzlM2Ie8A6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:38:38AM -0600, Tyler K McGeorge wrote: > Anybody know a good US .net Registrar? I am looking for a cheap and reliable one. Cheap being primary factor. gandi.net - cheapest I've seen, provides free email redirection and website redirection, and is run by a FreeBSD committer. Kris --IJpNTDwzlM2Ie8A6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6gSioWry0BWjoQKURAojyAKDwFMrw1GRtcaQ7byyceybGt0BlZwCgnNQA OsXXhP9jBd8z6ctBjEj8gKw= =gbif -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IJpNTDwzlM2Ie8A6-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 3: 7: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A010937B503 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 03:06:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f17AljE32624; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:47:46 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200102071047.f17AljE32624@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Kris Kennaway Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 00:06:27 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Good Registrar? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000801c090f2$21b26a40$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org>; from treznor@sunflower.com on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:38:38AM -0600 In-reply-to: <20010207025120.A24017@mollari.cthul.hu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 7 Feb 2001, at 2:51, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:38:38AM -0600, Tyler K McGeorge wrote: > > Anybody know a good US .net Registrar? I am looking for a cheap and reliable one. Cheap being primary factor. > > gandi.net - cheapest I've seen, provides free email redirection and > website redirection, and is run by a FreeBSD committer. Coincidentally, I'm about to register a couple of new domains... That comitter bit is enough to sway me.. thanks. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 5:12:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AA6A37B401 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 05:12:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA15720; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 06:12:01 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010207061015.04c99750@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 06:11:51 -0700 To: "Tyler K McGeorge" , From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Good Registrar? In-Reply-To: <000801c090f2$21b26a40$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been using DirectNIC.com. Simple, inexpensive, and extremely friendly. They also provide a few really neat services, such as quick redirects into non-top-level home pages. They're affiliates of TuCows. --Brett At 03:38 AM 2/7/2001, Tyler K McGeorge wrote: >Anybody know a good US .net Registrar? I am looking for a cheap and reliable one. Cheap being primary factor. > >By the way, I thought I'd ask this list, since I'm sure a couple of you have done this before... > >Doh! >Ty To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 5:46: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-56-129.knology.net [24.214.56.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3699437B503 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 05:45:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f17DjDN22353; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:45:13 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200102071345.f17DjDN22353@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Brad Knowles Cc: dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL In-reply-to: Message from Brad Knowles of "Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:16:18 +0100." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 07:45:13 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > At 7:27 PM -0600 2001/2/6, David Kelly wrote: > > > Expect MacOS X will be the next best thing to Genuine BSD. > > It should be pretty good. IMO, it's the last chance for Apple to > deliver on a "real" OS with pre-emptive multi-tasking, multi-user, > protected memory, etc... features but with the kind of ease-of-use > that you expect from a Macintosh. The public beta spent too many cycles drawing the pretty Aqua GUI. After about 5 minutes of "cool!" the transparent layering turned to "how can I turn it off?" Still the underlying guts are real Un*x so one way or another traditional Unix apps will be able to run side by side with traditional Mac and Modern Mac. > Now, I know that I'll have to get VirtualPC or RealPC for this > thing, for the few programs I need to run that don't have Mac > equivalents -- does anyone know how well they perform on a G4/500 > class machine, relative to actual x86-based hardware of various > speeds? Depends. Disk and network I/O are something near full Mac rates. Gut feel is other things are something better than 1:4 CPU clock cycle ratio. I run Microchip's MPLAB PIC stuff on a 210 MHz PPC 604e. Its faster than getting up and stiting in front of the PC. :-) Then again MPLAB is a 16 bit Win3.1 wrapper on DOS executables. Had to bump their default 30 second timer as lately my code has grown so that it takes nearly 60 seconds to assemble (1400 lines). Were I to actually measure the difference between a P-II 450 and the 604e 210 expect it would be the worst case example. Bought the VPC 4.0 upgrade for my new gigabit G4-400 but have not moved onto it yet. Still waiting on the TiBook. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 7:48: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52FAE37B503 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:47:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1253"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01JZTQXIT1KS00F0P0@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:47:05 EST Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 11:00:53 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3A817135.16771727@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: "2001 at 07:29:38AM -0700" <"200102070203.f1723AE27360"@ns1.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > ... > Althought the VAIO's seem to be popular at BSDi, I'm told the keyboard > is smallish (or is that the keys?). And they seem, umm, rather fragile. > Anyone concur? > I'm typing from a broken VAIO...the "delete" key died misteriously and it also blew away the critical F2 key...required by booteasy for loading FreeBSD :(. The technical support people said that since there is no warranty now they would charge me $20 only for commenting my problem on the phone! No idea how much it costs to fix it..but I simply need it now so it'll have to wait. My 0.02$ Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 8:14:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A919A37B4EC for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:13:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17688; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:13:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010207085658.04e01630@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 09:13:23 -0700 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , dan@langille.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3A817135.16771727@pitt.edu> References: <"2001 at 07:29:38AM -0700" <"200102070203.f1723AE27360"@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:00 AM 2/7/2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >The technical support people said that since there is no warranty now >they would charge me $20 only for commenting my problem on the phone! >No idea how much it costs to fix it..but I simply need it now so it'll >have to wait. Laptop manufacturers are infamous for gouging on repairs. HP and IBM are the worst in this regard: long delays and hundreds of dollars. And in most cases you cannot buy parts. I find that, whenever I get a laptop, it pays to buy a defunct one of the same brand (possibly an older model with the same case and keyboard) for parts. This saved me thousands of dollars with my IBM ThinkPad. After my horrendous experience with that unit, I will probably never buy an IBM product again if I can help it. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 9:54:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A3BD37B401 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:54:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 84A467592; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:55:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7329D1D92; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:55:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:55:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL In-Reply-To: <20010206081526.E98288@peorth.iteration.net> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 6 Feb 2001, Michael C . Wu wrote: :The following is seemingly the consensus of -mobile: :Pick between the following with 1 or 2 preferred - :1. VAIO Superslims or Large Bricks :2. Dell Inspiron 5000 or 7000 :3. Toshiba Porteges and Bricks :4. IBM X20 and A20 My Dell Latitude works just fine and is lighter that the Inspiron line by a fair bit. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 11:51:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.sunflower.com (smtp.sunflower.com [24.124.0.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A60F037B4EC for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:51:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from treznor (dv016s59.lawrence.ks.us [24.124.59.16]) by smtp.sunflower.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA23615; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:50:25 -0600 Message-ID: <006401c0913e$93381560$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> From: "Tyler K McGeorge" To: "Kris Kennaway" Cc: References: <000801c090f2$21b26a40$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> <20010207025120.A24017@mollari.cthul.hu> Subject: Re: Good Registrar? Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:45:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks for your suggestion. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kris Kennaway To: Tyler K McGeorge Cc: Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 4:51 AM Subject: Re: Good Registrar? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 11:52:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.sunflower.com (smtp.sunflower.com [24.124.0.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05AF337B65D for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:51:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from treznor (dv016s59.lawrence.ks.us [24.124.59.16]) by smtp.sunflower.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA23621; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:50:37 -0600 Message-ID: <006901c0913e$9aa6dac0$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> From: "Tyler K McGeorge" To: , "Kris Kennaway" Cc: References: <000801c090f2$21b26a40$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org>; from treznor@sunflower.com on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:38:38AM -0600 <200102071047.f17AljE32624@ns1.unixathome.org> Subject: Re: Good Registrar? Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:46:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thank you for your suggestion. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Langille To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 5:06 AM Subject: Re: Good Registrar? > On 7 Feb 2001, at 2:51, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 04:38:38AM -0600, Tyler K McGeorge wrote: > > > Anybody know a good US .net Registrar? I am looking for a cheap and reliable one. Cheap being primary factor. > > > > gandi.net - cheapest I've seen, provides free email redirection and > > website redirection, and is run by a FreeBSD committer. > > Coincidentally, I'm about to register a couple of new domains... That > comitter bit is enough to sway me.. thanks. > > -- > Dan Langille > pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 11:52:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.sunflower.com (smtp.sunflower.com [24.124.0.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C760C37B69B for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:51:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from treznor (dv016s59.lawrence.ks.us [24.124.59.16]) by smtp.sunflower.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA23626; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:50:50 -0600 Message-ID: <006e01c0913e$a20c7860$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> From: "Tyler K McGeorge" To: , "Brett Glass" References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010207061015.04c99750@localhost> Subject: Re: Good Registrar? Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:46:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thank you for your suggestion. ----- Original Message ----- From: Brett Glass To: Tyler K McGeorge ; Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 7:11 AM Subject: Re: Good Registrar? > I've been using DirectNIC.com. Simple, inexpensive, and extremely > friendly. They also provide a few really neat services, such as > quick redirects into non-top-level home pages. > > They're affiliates of TuCows. > > --Brett > > At 03:38 AM 2/7/2001, Tyler K McGeorge wrote: > > >Anybody know a good US .net Registrar? I am looking for a cheap and reliable one. Cheap being primary factor. > > > >By the way, I thought I'd ask this list, since I'm sure a couple of you have done this before... > > > >Doh! > >Ty > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 12: 0: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F33CF37B684 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:59:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from xor.obsecurity.org ([64.165.226.103]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G8E00IT0G591B@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by xor.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1754566B62; Wed, 07 Feb 2001 10:20:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 10:20:10 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: Good Registrar? In-reply-to: <4.3.2.7.2.20010207061015.04c99750@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 06:11:51AM -0700 To: Brett Glass Cc: Tyler K McGeorge , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <20010207102009.B28791@mollari.cthul.hu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1" Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: <000801c090f2$21b26a40$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010207061015.04c99750@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 06:11:51AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > I've been using DirectNIC.com. Simple, inexpensive, and extremely > friendly. They also provide a few really neat services, such as=20 > quick redirects into non-top-level home pages.=20 I bet gandi is cheaper, and they also do that :-) Kris --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6gZHZWry0BWjoQKURAgl+AKDFL0oTQN6N471UjURtOc9yr7FTIgCfRWfE O741vOhq529hfoCyv8dOwtY= =+jDa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 15:24:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (asbestos.linuxcare.com.au [203.17.0.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42BF937B6C4 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:24:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id f17NPD938202; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:25:13 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:25:13 +1100 From: Greg Lehey To: Jamie Bowden Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Message-ID: <20010208102513.A38163@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <20010206081526.E98288@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 09:55:39AM -0800 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 7 February 2001 at 9:55:39 -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Tue, 6 Feb 2001, Michael C . Wu wrote: > >> The following is seemingly the consensus of -mobile: >> Pick between the following with 1 or 2 preferred - >> 1. VAIO Superslims or Large Bricks >> 2. Dell Inspiron 5000 or 7000 >> 3. Toshiba Porteges and Bricks >> 4. IBM X20 and A20 > > My Dell Latitude works just fine and is lighter that the Inspiron line by > a fair bit. Yes, I prefer the Latitude as well. I replaced one with the Inspiron 7500 only because of the higher resolution display (1400x1050 compared to 1024x768), but it's the only advantage. The thing must weigh twice as much. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 15:32: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72B537B65D for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:31:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f17NCtE37347; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:12:58 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200102072312.f17NCtE37347@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Greg Lehey Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:31:34 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: laptops - perhaps DELL Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <20010208102513.A38163@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 09:55:39AM -0800 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 8 Feb 2001, at 10:25, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 7 February 2001 at 9:55:39 -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > > > My Dell Latitude works just fine and is lighter that the Inspiron line by > > a fair bit. > > Yes, I prefer the Latitude as well. I replaced one with the Inspiron > 7500 only because of the higher resolution display (1400x1050 compared > to 1024x768), but it's the only advantage. The thing must weigh twice > as much. I would think that on the smaller laptop screen 1024x768 would be quite adequete. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 15:42:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C8637B503 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:42:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08781D149 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:42:34 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:44:09 +0000 From: Paul Richards X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org These always amuse me when I get them, this one's more amusing than most. Microsoft Product Security wrote: > > The following is a Security Bulletin from the Microsoft Product Security > Notification Service. > > Please do not reply to this message, as it was sent from an unattended > mailbox. > ******************************** > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > - --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Title: NTLMSSP Privilege Elevation Vulnerability > Date: 07 February 2001 > Software: Windows NT 4.0 > Impact: Privilege Elevation > Bulletin: MS01-008 > > Microsoft encourages customers to review the Security Bulletin at: > http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/ms01-008.asp > - --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Issue: > ====== > A flaw in the NTLM Security Support Provider (NTLMSSP) service could > potentially allow a non-administrative user to gain administrative > control over the system. In order to perform this attack the user > would need a valid login account and the ability to execute arbitrary > code on the system. > > Mitigating Controls: > ==================== > - This vulnerability could only be exploited by an attacker > who could log onto the affected machine interactively. > > - Servers could only be affected if the attacker were given the > ability to load a program of her choice onto the machine and > execute it locally. Best practices recommend against this. You've gotta laugh really, a root compromise exists and the mitigating controls are to not let anyone use the box! Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 16:26:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (unknown [216.152.64.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E685337B4EC for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:25:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from whenever ([216.152.68.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:25:44 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Paul Richards" , Subject: RE: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:25:53 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > - Servers could only be affected if the attacker were given the > > ability to load a program of her choice onto the machine and > > execute it locally. Best practices recommend against this. > You've gotta laugh really, a root compromise exists and the mitigating > controls are to not let anyone use the box! > > Paul. In fairness to Microsoft, it is best practice not to let attackers access your box. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 20:31:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68ABF37B401 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from WhizKid (rh25.bfm.org [216.127.220.218]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:33:45 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 22:31:55 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] In-Reply-To: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 23:44 07-02-2001 +0000, Paul Richards wrote: >> - Servers could only be affected if the attacker were given the >> ability to load a program of her choice onto the machine and >> execute it locally. ^^^ Hmmm... Do I detect sexism on the part of Microsoft assuming the attacker would be female? --- Whiz Kid Technomagic - brand name computers for less. See http://www.whizkidtech.net/pcwarehouse/ for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 20:37:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F109D37B401 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:37:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA16253; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:37:04 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:37:03 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt X-Sender: dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com To: David Schwartz Cc: Paul Richards , chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, David Schwartz wrote: : :> > - Servers could only be affected if the attacker were given the :> > ability to load a program of her choice onto the machine and :> > execute it locally. Best practices recommend against this. : :> You've gotta laugh really, a root compromise exists and the mitigating :> controls are to not let anyone use the box! :> :> Paul. : : In fairness to Microsoft, it is best practice not to let attackers access :your box. : It's also best practice not to use software that sucks. I'd love to find an environment where no one but me gets to use the computers. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 20:41:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gray.westgate.gr (gray.westgate.gr [212.205.119.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF68637B491 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:41:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by gray.westgate.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f184g5d02690; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:42:05 +0200 (EET) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:42:05 +0200 (EET) From: Giorgos Keramidas To: David Schwartz Cc: Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > - Servers could only be affected if the attacker were given the > > > ability to load a program of her choice onto the machine and > > > execute it locally. Best practices recommend against this. > > > You've gotta laugh really, a root compromise exists and the mitigating > > controls are to not let anyone use the box! > > > > Paul. > > In fairness to Microsoft, it is best practice not to let attackers access > your box. Yes, and in the rare case that an "attacker" is anyone who can login interactively on the system console, or upload and run executables on the server, you should stop your users from "running" programs on the box. Well, in that case, why not unplug the thing and bury it six feet under, to prevent users from logging on the system interactively. Sorry, David, but you missed a point that was being made by Paul here :-) According to the advisory, anyone who can login interactively and execute some program *is* a potential attacker. Kinda limiting to the things an administrator can allow one's users to do, don't you think? --giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 22:48: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E4B5337B401 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:47:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 47686 invoked by uid 100); 8 Feb 2001 06:47:47 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14978.16659.207713.3575@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 00:47:47 -0600 (CST) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Support for FreeBSD in an extended slice. X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just had a strange thought, and tested it. It sure looks like you can use an extended slice for FreeBSD. You need to use some other tool (I used the linux fdisk under emulation mode) to create and put a type on the slice, but after that, it works fine. See the last bit of the message for log information. People blunder by -questions fairly regularly asking what they need to do to put FreeBSD in an extended partition. From the looks of things, about 90% of the work to do that has been done. All that's missing is fdisk support for extended partitions to create it, and boot support. Anyone one to comment on how hard those two things would be? Here's what I did just to play with the idea. I used the linux fdisk to create slices on a scratch disk, one in slice 1, an extended slice, and then a second slice in the extension slice, both FreeBSD partitions. Then label, newfs and mount them both as per usual. . -- Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 22:58:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01B6D37B401 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01604; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:57:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010207233106.0458f7c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:32:02 -0700 To: Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] In-Reply-To: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:44 PM 2/7/2001, Paul Richards wrote: >You've gotta laugh really, a root compromise exists and the mitigating >controls are to not let anyone use the box! What's the difference between this and the recent procfs local root exploit in FreeBSD? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 7 23:14: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C4E37B401 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:13:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA07514; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 00:07:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAArEayLo; Thu Feb 8 00:07:32 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA07197; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 00:13:26 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102080713.AAA07197@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Support for FreeBSD in an extended slice. To: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:13:26 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <14978.16659.207713.3575@guru.mired.org> from "Mike Meyer" at Feb 08, 2001 12:47:47 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > People blunder by -questions fairly regularly asking what they need to > do to put FreeBSD in an extended partition. From the looks of things, > about 90% of the work to do that has been done. All that's missing is > fdisk support for extended partitions to create it, and boot > support. Anyone one to comment on how hard those two things would be? Creating the partitions and putting Berkeley disktabs on them, and newfs'ing them is trivial; probably less than a couple dozen lines of code changes. The big problem is that the BIOS and the default PC MBR can't handle booting from them. Most MBR's can't, since there is no real standard way of marking the thing active (which is the only way to tell a root partition from a data partition, among other things). If you get all that sorted out, you still have to figure out how to mount the thing as root (which is less trivial than a dozen lines of code, but quite possible -- might even result in some code cleanup that's been asking for it for a long time). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 2: 2:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094D837B401 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 02:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f18A1x436726 ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:01:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA04605 ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:01:59 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:01:59 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] Message-ID: <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 10:31:55PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav said on Feb 7, 2001 at 22:31:55: > At 23:44 07-02-2001 +0000, Paul Richards wrote: > >> - Servers could only be affected if the attacker were given the > >> ability to load a program of her choice onto the machine and > >> execute it locally. ^^^ > > Hmmm... Do I detect sexism on the part of Microsoft assuming the > attacker would be female? It seems to be pretty common practice these days, among people who want to correct the language bias of centuries but find "his/her" cumbersome. The idea is that if "his" is supposed to be gender-neutral in generic situations, "her" should also be regarded as gender-neutral. On this issue, at least, I have no quarrel with Microsoft :) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 2: 7:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4C7C37B491 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 02:07:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f18A7a437476 ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:07:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA04915 ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:07:36 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:07:36 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Paul Richards , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] Message-ID: <20010208110736.F2429@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <4.3.2.7.2.20010207233106.0458f7c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010207233106.0458f7c0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 11:32:02PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Feb 7, 2001 at 23:32:02: > At 04:44 PM 2/7/2001, Paul Richards wrote: > > >You've gotta laugh really, a root compromise exists and the mitigating > >controls are to not let anyone use the box! > > What's the difference between this and the recent procfs local root > exploit in FreeBSD? Maybe this: that the FreeBSD advisory doesn't consider it a "mitigating control" that only local users with permission to run arbitrary programs can exploit it, or claim that "best practices recommend against this"? R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 5:59:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E0DD37B401 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 05:59:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA67924; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:57:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] References: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 08 Feb 2001 14:57:57 +0100 In-Reply-To: Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:01:59 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > The idea is that if "his" is supposed to be gender-neutral in > generic situations, "her" should also be regarded as gender-neutral. This discussion reminds me of the LaTeX macros that you use instead of third person singular pronouns and possessive adjectives, which alternate between the male and female form. BTW, Norwegian has a very useful word which means "the concerned person", which makes it relatively easy to construct gender-neutral phrases. The only way to do that in English is to "play the pronoun game", i.e. use (gender-neutral) plural forms instead of singular forms, which makes for some pretty corny sentences... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 6: 7: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2121F37B698 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:06:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f18E6f465865 ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:06:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA15674 ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:06:41 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:06:41 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] Message-ID: <20010208150641.A15166@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:57:57PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Feb 8, 2001 at 14:57:57: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > The idea is that if "his" is supposed to be gender-neutral in > > generic situations, "her" should also be regarded as gender-neutral. > > This discussion reminds me of the LaTeX macros that you use instead of > third person singular pronouns and possessive adjectives, which > alternate between the male and female form. I didn't know about this. Is it available on the ctan archives? > BTW, Norwegian has a very useful word which means "the concerned > person", which makes it relatively easy to construct gender-neutral > phrases. The only way to do that in English is to "play the pronoun > game", i.e. use (gender-neutral) plural forms instead of singular > forms, which makes for some pretty corny sentences... And I learned of this amusing situation in French: the plural pronoun, unlike in English, is gender-biased; it's "elles" only when the gender of all parties is feminine, otherwise (for all-masculine or mixed) it's "ils". So normally when you see "elles" you think the reference is to women. But the word "personne" for person is feminine, so legal documents often start off with "personnes" and continue with "elles" even though there's no assumption that they're referring to women; if you read such a thing from the middle, you may get confused... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 6:22:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2400937B684 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA68015; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:21:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] References: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> <20010208150641.A15166@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 08 Feb 2001 15:21:32 +0100 In-Reply-To: Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:06:41 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Feb 8, 2001 at 14:57:57: > > This discussion reminds me of the LaTeX macros that you use instead of > > third person singular pronouns and possessive adjectives, which > > alternate between the male and female form. > I didn't know about this. Is it available on the ctan archives? I believe it's standard. I don't remember the name of the macros, though I think it's something like \heshe, \Heshe, \hisher, \Hisher. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 6:27:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 087D737B698 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:27:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f18ERM468143 ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:27:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA16792 ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:27:22 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:27:22 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] Message-ID: <20010208152722.B15166@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> <20010208150641.A15166@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 03:21:32PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Feb 8, 2001 at 15:21:32: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Feb 8, 2001 at 14:57:57: > > > This discussion reminds me of the LaTeX macros that you use instead of > > > third person singular pronouns and possessive adjectives, which > > > alternate between the male and female form. > > I didn't know about this. Is it available on the ctan archives? > > I believe it's standard. I don't remember the name of the macros, > though I think it's something like \heshe, \Heshe, \hisher, \Hisher. Can't find these in the teTeX distribution... but it shouldn't be too difficult to implement. Interesting idea, anyway. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 9:25:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22C6C37B401 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:25:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 7B7D1755E; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:26:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B6E1D8E; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:26:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:26:51 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 8 Feb 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: :Rahul Siddharthan writes: :> The idea is that if "his" is supposed to be gender-neutral in :> generic situations, "her" should also be regarded as gender-neutral. : :This discussion reminds me of the LaTeX macros that you use instead of :third person singular pronouns and possessive adjectives, which :alternate between the male and female form. : :BTW, Norwegian has a very useful word which means "the concerned :person", which makes it relatively easy to construct gender-neutral :phrases. The only way to do that in English is to "play the pronoun :game", i.e. use (gender-neutral) plural forms instead of singular :forms, which makes for some pretty corny sentences... One can easily be gender neutral if one so chooses. The out of use thee, thine, and thou are all gender neutral pronouns as well. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 11:23:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CA14337B65D for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:23:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 68807 invoked by uid 100); 8 Feb 2001 19:23:33 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14978.62004.992941.552822@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:23:32 -0600 (CST) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Support for FreeBSD in an extended slice. In-Reply-To: <200102080713.AAA07197@usr08.primenet.com> References: <14978.16659.207713.3575@guru.mired.org> <200102080713.AAA07197@usr08.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > > People blunder by -questions fairly regularly asking what they need to > > do to put FreeBSD in an extended partition. From the looks of things, > > about 90% of the work to do that has been done. All that's missing is > > fdisk support for extended partitions to create it, and boot > > support. Anyone one to comment on how hard those two things would be? > Creating the partitions and putting Berkeley disktabs on them, > and newfs'ing them is trivial; probably less than a couple dozen > lines of code changes. That would explain why it happened. I think it's synchronicity more than anything else. Support for talking to MS-DOS formatted extended partitions means you have to be able to read the slice description, and once you've got that, making them FreeBSD slices is easy. > The big problem is that the BIOS and the default PC MBR can't > handle booting from them. Most MBR's can't, since there is no > real standard way of marking the thing active (which is the only > way to tell a root partition from a data partition, among other > things). Grub pretty much solves all those problems. It's not something you'd want to use if all you're running is FreeBSD, but in that case you don't need to be able to put FreeBSD in an extended partition. > If you get all that sorted out, you still have to figure out how > to mount the thing as root (which is less trivial than a dozen > lines of code, but quite possible -- might even result in some > code cleanup that's been asking for it for a long time). The kernel knows how to deal with this stuff, so the problem shouldn't be there (unless that's the code that needs cleaning up). Does it possibly happen in /boot/loader? Since grub runs /boot/loader, I was concerned that /boot/loader might not work when run from an extended partition. This also leaves the interesting question of installing FreeBSD in an extended partition. Thanx, http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 12:17:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.interlog.com (bretweir.total.net [154.11.89.176]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C3ADF37B6AB for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:17:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 24561 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2001 20:17:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO vws3.interlog.com) (207.34.202.29) by bretweir.total.net with SMTP; 8 Feb 2001 20:17:06 -0000 Received: by vws3.interlog.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA29951; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:17:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:17:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200102082017.PAA29951@vws3.interlog.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: FreeBSD Security Advisories Subject: FreeBSD Ports Security Advisory: FreeBSD-SA-01:INSERT_NUMBER_HERE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ============================================================================= FreeBSD-SA-01:INSERT_NUMBER_HERE Security Advisory FreeBSD, Inc. Topic: FreeBSD on record to set most advisory releases for year 2001 Category: All Announced: 2001-02-07 Credits: sil@loopback.antioffline.com http://www.antioffline.com Vendor status: Developers sleeping right now FreeBSD only: Yes I. Background FreeBSD is the most robust chopperating sysdumb in the world and we mean it. Our TCP stack will kick your TCP stacks hynee. Currently we are releasing an advisory every 1.95 days which means we are bound to surpass Microsoft. II. Problem Description We normally do not assess security when creating the ports distribution often allowing anyone to build any program we decide to run in the ports directory. Recently we have noticed that we can no longer fool users into thinking because we provide checksumming for the programs, that they will be secure. Unlinke other operating systems and the developers of them who audit their ports, we feel it is not our problem if someone accessess your system because we're too lazy to do things right the first time. III. Impact Obviously anyone can end up control your machine or worse. IV. Workaround We will not be mentioning the ultra secure OpenBSD operating system since we feel it is not our problem and does not help to promote a better OS than our own. V. Solution One of the following: 1) Rub a magic lamp and wait for the security genie to fix it. 2) Download NSA Linux so you too can have miniscule backdoors in it which you won't see. 3) Pray to the hacker god Kevin Mitnick for assistance. 4) Install a more secure O(penBSD)S NOTE: FreeBSD developers are now red faced VI. Shouts Hard Lee Strange Mike Hunt Ivana Swallows Mike Hock Dick Famous Kathie Lee Gifford To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 15:18:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 384EC37C170 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:18:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 75591 invoked by uid 100); 8 Feb 2001 23:18:03 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14979.10539.531279.471288@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:18:03 -0600 (CST) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Ports Security Advisory: FreeBSD-SA-01:INSERT_NUMBER_HERE In-Reply-To: <200102082017.PAA29951@vws3.interlog.com> References: <200102082017.PAA29951@vws3.interlog.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 10) "Capitol Reef" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Security Advisories types: > Topic: FreeBSD on record to set most advisory releases for > year 2001 [...] > 4) Install a more secure O(penBSD)S While making OpenBSD users look like juvenile idiots once was mildly amusing, the second time wasn't, and the others make me think that there really *are* some OpenBSD users this immature. Is that really the case? Are there really juvenile delinquents running OpenBSD and so jealous of FreeBSD they resort to graffiti like this (except that graffiti usually display some talent)? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 15:29:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CB4237B401 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:28:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 63DE56A90D; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:58:38 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:58:38 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Gender in Indo-European languages (was: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008]) Message-ID: <20010209095838.E11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 02:57:57PM +0100 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 8 February 2001 at 14:57:57 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: >> The idea is that if "his" is supposed to be gender-neutral in >> generic situations, "her" should also be regarded as >> gender-neutral. In a newly-designed language, this would be reasonable. In existing languages there are syntactical conventions. In English and most other languages I can think of, a group of people of mixed gender is masculine. > This discussion reminds me of the LaTeX macros that you use instead > of third person singular pronouns and possessive adjectives, which > alternate between the male and female form. > > BTW, Norwegian has a very useful word which means "the concerned > person", which makes it relatively easy to construct gender-neutral > phrases. Isn't "person" feminine? It is in other West European languages. > The only way to do that in English is to "play the pronoun game", > i.e. use (gender-neutral) plural forms instead of singular forms, > which makes for some pretty corny sentences... I'd say using "she" instead of "he" in the (no longer) quoted sentence looks corny. It contravenes rules of grammar in an attempt to look non-sexist. I think it creates exactly the opposite impression. Indo-European languages have two or three gender forms, though in many, including English, they are degenerate. In others, the gender needs have only superficial relationship to the object in question. For example, in German the words "Mädchen" ("girl") and "Weib" (woman) are neuter. In old English, "wif" ("wife") was neuter (really the same word as "Weib"; genders die hard) and "wif-mann" ("woman") was masculine. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 15:31:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3437537B401 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:31:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 5362A6A90D; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:00:58 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:00:58 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Gender in Indo-European languages (was: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008]) Message-ID: <20010209100058.F11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> <20010208150641.A15166@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010208150641.A15166@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 03:06:41PM +0100 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 8 February 2001 at 15:06:41 +0100, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Feb 8, 2001 at 14:57:57: >> BTW, Norwegian has a very useful word which means "the concerned >> person", which makes it relatively easy to construct gender-neutral >> phrases. The only way to do that in English is to "play the pronoun >> game", i.e. use (gender-neutral) plural forms instead of singular >> forms, which makes for some pretty corny sentences... > > And I learned of this amusing situation in French: the plural pronoun, > unlike in English, is gender-biased; it's "elles" only when the gender > of all parties is feminine, otherwise (for all-masculine or mixed) > it's "ils". So normally when you see "elles" you think the reference > is to women. But the word "personne" for person is feminine, so > legal documents often start off with "personnes" and continue with > "elles" even though there's no assumption that they're referring to > women; if you read such a thing from the middle, you may get > confused... This is a good example of what I said in my last message. In German legal contracts, the word for a company is "Gesellschaft", which is also feminine singular. The same considerations apply. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 15:51:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4332C37B67D for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:51:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id EAB6C6AC94; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:21:17 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:21:17 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Rahul Siddharthan , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Gender in Indo-European languages (was: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008]) Message-ID: <20010209102117.G11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 09:26:51AM -0800 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 8 February 2001 at 9:26:51 -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On 8 Feb 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >> Rahul Siddharthan writes: >>> The idea is that if "his" is supposed to be gender-neutral in >>> generic situations, "her" should also be regarded as gender-neutral. >> >> This discussion reminds me of the LaTeX macros that you use instead of >> third person singular pronouns and possessive adjectives, which >> alternate between the male and female form. >> >> BTW, Norwegian has a very useful word which means "the concerned >> person", which makes it relatively easy to construct gender-neutral >> phrases. The only way to do that in English is to "play the pronoun >> game", i.e. use (gender-neutral) plural forms instead of singular >> forms, which makes for some pretty corny sentences... > > One can easily be gender neutral if one so chooses. One would sound somewhat stilted referring to ones possessions. > The out of use thee, thine, and thou are all gender neutral pronouns > as well. "Thine" is a particular case of the possessive adjective "thy" (specifically, accusative). In older days "thy" definitely had gender, though it's now degenerate. "Thou" and "thee" are the same word in nominative and accusative respectively. They're personal pronouns (second person singular), and I find it difficult to see how they would address the problem at hand any better than "you" and "your". Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 15:55:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B120937B4EC for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:55:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA70327; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 00:55:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Feb 2001 00:55:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: Jamie Bowden's message of "Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:26:51 -0800 (PST)" Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden writes: > One can easily be gender neutral if one so chooses. The out of use thee, > thine, and thou are all gender neutral pronouns as well. Your examples illustrate use of the indefinite pronoun as well as an archaic form of the second person singular (the modern form, "you", also servesas second person plural, instead of the original "ye"). They do not, however, illustrate a gender-neutral form of or replacement for the third person singular pronoun and possessive adjective, which were what was being discussed. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 17: 1:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AE4C37B67D; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA19165; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:55:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA.Ha4tL; Thu Feb 8 17:55:05 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA29682; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:01:00 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102090101.SAA29682@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Ports Security Advisory: FreeBSD-SA-01:INSERT_NUMBER_HERE To: security-advisories@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Security Advisories) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 01:00:59 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200102082016.PAA29933@vws3.interlog.com> from "FreeBSD Security Advisories" at Feb 08, 2001 03:16:17 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Topic: FreeBSD on record to set most advisory releases for > year 2001 Heh. But obviously someone is out to challenge them for the record, issuing these ones, since they weren't issued by FreeBSD. [ ... ] > We will not be mentioning the ultra secure OpenBSD operating system > since we feel it is not our problem and does not help to promote a > better OS than our own. The interesting problem here is that OpenBSD is vulnerable to hardware limitation based attacks at boot time. They themselves draw the line at auditing the hardware and firmware of every motherboard out there. Some viable attacks on OpenBSD can still be instituted via a network connection. You have to draw the line somewhere, and that's one of the places they draw theirs. PS: You really aren't doing yourself any favors by trying to stir up enmity between the camps; it's not going to work. All us BSD folks like or at least respect each other enough that all you are going to do is evoke a "Hey! Only *I* get to pick on my brother!" response. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 17:15:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0667A37B69B for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:15:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA20129; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:15:02 -0700 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:15:02 -0700 (MST) From: John Galt To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Subject: Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Copies-to: galt@inconnu.isu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Jamie Bowden wrote: >On 8 Feb 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >:Rahul Siddharthan writes: >:> The idea is that if "his" is supposed to be gender-neutral in >:> generic situations, "her" should also be regarded as gender-neutral. >: >:This discussion reminds me of the LaTeX macros that you use instead of >:third person singular pronouns and possessive adjectives, which >:alternate between the male and female form. >: >:BTW, Norwegian has a very useful word which means "the concerned >:person", which makes it relatively easy to construct gender-neutral >:phrases. The only way to do that in English is to "play the pronoun >:game", i.e. use (gender-neutral) plural forms instead of singular >:forms, which makes for some pretty corny sentences... > >One can easily be gender neutral if one so chooses. The out of use thee, >thine, and thou are all gender neutral pronouns as well. Amish ported to computers: who'd'a' thunk it? :) >Jamie Bowden > > -- You have paid nothing for the preceding, therefore it's worth every penny you've paid for it: if you did pay for it, might I remind you of the immortal words of Phineas Taylor Barnum regarding fools and money? Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 18:40:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44FAA37B4EC for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:40:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18901; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:39:26 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208193726.04763b10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 19:39:21 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010208150641.A15166@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:06 AM 2/8/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >And I learned of this amusing situation in French: the plural pronoun, >unlike in English, is gender-biased; it's "elles" only when the gender >of all parties is feminine, otherwise (for all-masculine or mixed) >it's "ils". Ah, but at least they have the unisex pronoun "on." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 18:40:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A81E237B65D for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:40:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA71037; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 03:39:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Greg Lehey Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Lots of stuff you never knew (or needed to know) about Norwegian (was Re: Gender in Indo-European languages) References: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> <20010209095838.E11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Feb 2001 03:39:37 +0100 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:58:38 +1030" Message-ID: Lines: 142 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Thursday, 8 February 2001 at 14:57:57 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > BTW, Norwegian has a very useful word which means "the concerned > > person", which makes it relatively easy to construct gender-neutral > > phrases. > Isn't "person" feminine? It is in other West European languages. Ah, here's where it gets complicated. In theory, Norwegian has three genders: masculine and feminine (for people and animals), and neuter, which is used for some inanimate objects and a very few animate objects (three non-compound words I can think of right off the bat: "human", "animal" and - don't laugh - "troll".) Inanimate objects are invariably masculine or neuter; using feminine for e.g. a ship is not unheard of (particularly in coastal regions), but I don't think it's gramatically correct. In practice, however, the use of gender varies from dialect to dialect. Most dialects and one of the official forms (Nynorsk - the "new Norwegian", an artificial language constructed in the late 19th century from a handful of dialects which were assumed to represent "true Norwegian") use all three genders, but in the other official form (Bokmål - the "tongue of books"), feminine is optional (masculine is used instead), and in the now-defunct Riksmål (the "tongue of the kingdom"), which is somewhere in between the bastardized Danish spoken by the upper class in the 19th century and today's Bokmål, it does not exist at all. Riksmål is still spoken to some degree in the cities, and there are dialects (e.g. in the Bergen area) where feminine is used only rarely and reluctantly. Bergen, by the way, is an old hanseatic harbour city, and remains quite idiosyncratic, which often leads both its inhabitants and the rest of the country to wish - for slightly different reasons - that it would declare independence from Norway. A good (and common) way to tease people from the Bergen area is to pronounce every word ending in "a" (the feminine singular definite ending) as if it ended in "en" (the masculine singular definite ending) instead, including those where the final "a" is not a gender ending, e.g. "Hansa", which is not only the Norwegian name for the Hanseatic League but also the name of a local brewery. The differences bewteen Bokmål and Riksmål are not very large; one can view Riksmål as an archaic form of Bokmål. The first major difference is that where voiced consonants appear alone between vowels, Bokmål replaces most of them with unvoiced ones ("p" instead of "b", "t" instead of "d"). This process started in the mid-19th century as a conscious effort to distanciate Norwegian from Danish (Norway transitioned from being a Danish province since the Black Plague to being a semi-autonomous state in the Swedish-Norwegian union, with a short interlude as an independent kingdom in 1814-1815). The second major difference is the reintroduction of the feminine gender. Other differences from Danish (which Bokmål and Riksmål share) are a formalization of contractions (i.e. many words sound more or less alike in Danish and Norwegian, but their Danish written forms have additional syllables which aren't normally pronounced) and a vocabulary where many Danish (Latin- or French-influenced) words have been replaced by equialent Norwegian words (taken from rural dialects which had survived the four-hundred-year Danish occupation). Plus the usual stuff one would expect from almost two hundred years of separate evolution. To answer your question, the Norwegian word for "person" (which, incidentially, is "person") is indeed feminine, but most people speaking Bokmål will treat it as if it were masculine, which (in Bokmål at least) is an allowed alternate form. You'll find few people treating all feminine words as feminine, and most of those will occasionally slip and use masculine for a feminine word. True Bokmål, Nynorsk and Riksmål are constructed languages, and the only people speaking (or trying to speak) any of these three extremes is making a political statement (Bokmål: left-wing, standing up for the common laborer's rights; Nynorsk: fighting for minority rights, or trying to fill a quota; Riksmål: right-wing conservative, monarchist, showing off one's education or distanciating oneself from the vulgar lower class). The rest of the country, for whom speech is a way of making oneself understood and not a way of displaying one's political affiliation, speak something in between those three, unless they speak Sami, which is a weird mix of Finnish, Russian, Swedish and Norwegian (mostly Finnish in structure and base vocabulary), in which case they're probably Lapps standing up for minority rights. It is commonly held that there are more Lapps living in Oslo (about 700 miles south of Lappland) than in any single municipality in Lappland. Personally, I speak something in between Riksmål and Bokmål, which you might call the Western Oslo subdialect, and I can speak what you might call the Eastern Oslo subdialect (closer to Bokmål, different intonation, more colloquial) quite convincingly. Most people in and around Oslo (anything from a quarter to half the country's population depending on where you draw the line) speak something called Østlandsdialekt (Eastern Dialect), which can be described as colloquial Bokmål with slight variations in intonation and in the thickness of l's and r's. If you're wondering what I meant about a quota - Nynorsk is one of two official languages, remember? All government offices etc. are required to make forms and brochures available in both Bokmål and Nynorsk, and to answer correspondance in the form preferred by the correspondant. The national broadcasting company is required to use Nynorsk in at least 25% of its programming (foreign-language programs excepted), and state-owned universities and colleges are required to print at least 25% of their brochures, catalogs etc. in Nynorsk and provide Nynorsk versions of exam papers to students who request it. To quote one of my (French) history teachers in high school: "four million people and you can't even agree on a language!" (then again, France is notorious for ruthless and systematic repression of dialects and patois ever since the inception of the public school in the mid-19th century). A fun way of annoying Nynorsk speakers is to cross out the Nynorsk form of the country's name ("Noreg" instead of "Norge") on postage stamps or bills. They'll scream and shout and tell you that you're oppressing 18% (or whatever this week's figure is) of the population, until you point out that the number of native Nynorsk speakers is nil, and that any figure they quote is really just a guesstimate of the number of people speaking one of a poorly-defined number of dialects that more or less resemble Nynorsk, and that most of those say "Norge" and not "Noreg" anyway. My oldest brother used to do that until he got a life (he also had a sticker advocating Riksmålsforeningen, an association that promotes the use of Riksmål as an alternative to Bokmål, on his bedroom door). I have two amusing anecdotes about the Nynorsk quota, BTW - both from the University of Oslo (which is in a Bokmål-dominated region). The first is that of a CS prof who discovered that the envelope with the Nynorsk copies of his exams was always coming back unopened - so he stopped translating his exams to Nynorsk, and although a handful of students every year tick off the box on the enrollment form that says they want the Nynorsk version, nobody noticed (or complained) for six years, until one of his students "stood up for his rights against the cultural oppressors" on exam day and he got a rebuke. The second regards the fact that the University of Oslo recently started publishing its catalog of courses in Nynorsk instead of Bokmål. I don't know the official reason for this, but the word around the campfire is that they found out that it was big enough to satisfy the Nynorsk quota on its own, so they could stick to Bokmål for the rest of the year (for additional credit, take a wild guess at how much of the information in the catalog actually changes from year to year...) DES (if you read this far, you need a life) -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 20: 0:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B9C37B491 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:59:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B40667567; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:01:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B12951D89; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:01:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:01:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Greg Lehey Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Rahul Siddharthan , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gender in Indo-European languages (was: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008]) In-Reply-To: <20010209102117.G11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: :On Thursday, 8 February 2001 at 9:26:51 -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote: :> One can easily be gender neutral if one so chooses. :One would sound somewhat stilted referring to ones possessions. One's posessions would be referred to as 'it'. :> The out of use thee, thine, and thou are all gender neutral pronouns :> as well. :"Thine" is a particular case of the possessive adjective "thy" :(specifically, accusative). In older days "thy" definitely had :gender, though it's now degenerate. "Thou" and "thee" are the same :word in nominative and accusative respectively. They're personal :pronouns (second person singular), and I find it difficult to see how :they would address the problem at hand any better than "you" and :"your". Ack, deprecated versions of you and yours. I could swear Englash had deprecated pronouns for referring to someone in a gender neutral fashion. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 20: 1:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A66437B491 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:01:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 6410C6A90D; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:31:21 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:31:21 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] Message-ID: <20010209143121.J16260@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> <20010208150641.A15166@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010208193726.04763b10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208193726.04763b10@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 07:39:21PM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 8 February 2001 at 19:39:21 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:06 AM 2/8/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> And I learned of this amusing situation in French: the plural pronoun, >> unlike in English, is gender-biased; it's "elles" only when the gender >> of all parties is feminine, otherwise (for all-masculine or mixed) >> it's "ils". > > Ah, but at least they have the unisex pronoun "on." "on" is masculine. Yes, it's used to represent females as well. But that's what we did in English too, until Political Correctness got the better of grammar. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 22:21:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8A6237B401; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:21:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f196KCF91888; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:20:13 GMT (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Terry Lambert" , "FreeBSD Security Advisories" Cc: , Subject: RE: FreeBSD Ports Security Advisory: FreeBSD-SA-01:INSERT_NUMBER_HERE Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:21:13 -0800 Message-ID: <001801c09260$80407ec0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <200102090101.SAA29682@usr08.primenet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was very sad to see this post, it would have been a very humorous piece if it hadn't been stuffed full of spelling and grammar errors. They really ruined the smooth flow that's so important to bringing off a good e-mail joke. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Terry Lambert > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 5:01 PM > To: FreeBSD Security Advisories > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: FreeBSD Ports Security Advisory: > FreeBSD-SA-01:INSERT_NUMBER_HERE > > > > Topic: FreeBSD on record to set most advisory releases for > > year 2001 > > Heh. But obviously someone is out to challenge them for the record, > issuing these ones, since they weren't issued by FreeBSD. > > [ ... ] > > > We will not be mentioning the ultra secure OpenBSD operating system > > since we feel it is not our problem and does not help to promote a > > better OS than our own. > > The interesting problem here is that OpenBSD is vulnerable to > hardware limitation based attacks at boot time. They themselves > draw the line at auditing the hardware and firmware of every > motherboard out there. Some viable attacks on OpenBSD can still > be instituted via a network connection. You have to draw the > line somewhere, and that's one of the places they draw theirs. > > > PS: You really aren't doing yourself any favors by trying to stir > up enmity between the camps; it's not going to work. All us BSD > folks like or at least respect each other enough that all you are > going to do is evoke a "Hey! Only *I* get to pick on my brother!" > response. 8-). > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 8 23: 6: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lips.borg.umn.edu (lips.borg.umn.edu [160.94.232.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4692B37B491; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:05:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from thebarn.com (nic-31-c12-219.mn.mediaone.net [24.31.12.219]) by lips.borg.umn.edu (8.11.2/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1975Zb30917; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 01:05:36 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3A8396B9.CA8C09E4@thebarn.com> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 01:05:29 -0600 From: Russell Cattelan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Jack Rusher , Terry Lambert , Sam Leffler , Zhiui Zhang , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system References: <200102072323.QAA27692@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > {...} > > > > I rather suspect that the GPL was intentionally chosen by SGI > > > to permit them to jump on the Linux/Open Source bandwagon, > > > without exposing them to the risk of a commercial organization > > > which competes with SGI being able to benefit from the technology > > > > This is unquestionably true. I have word from some of the architects > > who helped design XFS that this was exactly the reason GPL was chosen > > over the BSD license. > > I had a pretty long discussion with their V.P. of engineering, > who made the decision (they have a number of "V.P. of engineering" > lying around). He didn't come out and say the same thing, and I > really didn't attribute it to that, since it means that any bug > fixes are GPL-code derived, and therefore also GPL. That would > mean that they really don't expect any useful work to come out of > the Linux community, or that they expected people to just sign > over rights to anything interesting, which I think would be a bit > naieve, to say the least. I'm not sure who you talked with? but it really it that simple. The reason the GPL was chosen for XFS. It's the license Linux is using, and since the port is being done for Linux it makes sense. SGI is also doing work with the XFree code, the work is being released under the X license (which is also an anti GPL license). SGI is basically matching license for licensee to whatever project they are contributing to. This from the lawyer that is doing all the open source work. I have stated this in the past but I will bring it up again. If sufficient momentum can be generated toward an fbsd port of XFS, it may be possible to go to the lawyers and have a another license drawn up. But unless the bsd community can show they are serious about XFS being ported it would be a waste of time to ask for something that SGI has very little business interesting in doing. Note Darwin might be a big win in terms of making a business case for another platform. The license shouldn't be that big of an issue. Lots of fbsd uses GPL'ed code... hmm gcc for example. Let get to the point were XFS is in such demand on fbsd we can get a petition going if necessary to have the license updated. BTW if anybody is interested a few of us have started looking at actually doing the port. Not much has been done at this point... basically battling through header file cleanup. Ohh one other comment: The only time SGI may ask for a copy write reassignment is if the contributed code affects the filesystem compatibility between irix and linux. This would have to be a major contribution before something like this would be an issue, and some negotiation will most certainly be involved. Up to to this point all bug fixes have been linux related only so it really isn't an issue. This isn't SGI trying to be an ass... rather SGI trying to provide the most compatible FS it can within the constrains of many legal issues. -- Russell Cattelan cattelan@thebarn.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 0:47:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08EAF37B401 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 00:47:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D8260239A95; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 00:47:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 00:47:26 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Brett Glass Cc: Tyler K McGeorge , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good Registrar? Message-ID: <20010209004726.I656@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <000801c090f2$21b26a40$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010207061015.04c99750@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010207061015.04c99750@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 06:11:51AM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-02-07 06:11 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > I've been using DirectNIC.com. Simple, inexpensive, and extremely > friendly. They also provide a few really neat services, such as > quick redirects into non-top-level home pages. > > They're affiliates of TuCows. They're also the largest spam house in the domain registration business, in my experience. They forge yahoo.com addresses and attempt other trickery. I'll never use them. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Bureaucrats cut red tape--lengthwise. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 0:57:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D41F37B503; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 00:56:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA18553; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 01:51:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA5RaOkK; Fri Feb 9 01:51:48 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA08304; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 01:56:29 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102090856.BAA08304@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system To: cattelan@thebarn.com (Russell Cattelan) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:56:29 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jar@integratus.com (Jack Rusher), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), sam@errno.com (Sam Leffler), zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu (Zhiui Zhang), freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3A8396B9.CA8C09E4@thebarn.com> from "Russell Cattelan" at Feb 09, 2001 01:05:29 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OK, this is not a license war. I will lay it on the line. I am offering to do a preliminary port of the XFS code, potentially to the point of minimally a read-only mount, and perhaps much further, depending on the effort required. The resulting code will have some nasty strings, based on me assuming your comments are correct, and wanting some guarantees on that, on my part. The strings go away when your claims to SGI's actions are met. Below is my reply to your message, including the philosophical basis for the strings, a description of the strings, and the details of my offer. This offer is good for a starting date before 01 March 2001. -- > I'm not sure who you talked with? but it really it that simple. Vijay. The V.P. of Engineering at SGI who negotiated the release of the code. I will quote one of his statements, made to me in email: ] Can't you just relicense FreeBSD [under the GPL]? > The reason the GPL was chosen for XFS. > It's the license Linux is using, and since > the port is being done for Linux it makes sense. One would think a dual license. Alternately, one would think they would use the LGPL, which would let people link it into their kernels, as long as they gave source (which BSD does) or otherwise permitted relinking. In other words, the GPL is not really an optimal license, if they wanted wide use AND specific Linux license compatability. I concluded from their choice that they were not going for wide use, but instead wanted the marketing benefit of being associated with Linux (lots of press, etc.). > SGI is also doing work with the XFree code, the work > is being released under the X license (which is also > an anti GPL license). The BSD and MIT licenses predate the GPL, so careful with the word "anti" there... > SGI is basically matching license for licensee to > whatever project they are contributing to. > This from the lawyer that is doing all the open source work. Rather than the use to which the software is put; that's a bit naieve, then, again. > I have stated this in the past but I will bring it up again. > If sufficient momentum can be generated toward an fbsd port > of XFS, it may be possible to go to the lawyers and have a another > license drawn up. If we had it in writing that the code would be released under a license usable by the BSD kernel, preferrably "matching license for license", as you state, then we would commit to do the work. The problem we have is that the code under the current license is useless to us, and unless we can be ensured that the code we write to glue it in won't end up also being useless to us, there is really no reason to commit the effort. > But unless the bsd community can show they are serious about > XFS being ported it would be a waste of time to ask for > something that SGI has very little business interesting in doing. So if we were to do a port, then SGI would have a business interest, and would relicense the code? Can we have that in writing? > Note Darwin might be a big win in terms of making a business case > for another platform. Darwin support would be automatic, with a FreeBSD port. Darwin can use FreeBSD FS code, unmodified. > The license shouldn't be that big of an issue. It shouldn't, but it is. I would have been ecstatic to use XFS in the Whistle InterJet, as a means of getting rid of the need for a UPS; as a technology for doing exactly that, it's superior to Soft Updates (Soft Updates has other valuable attributes, but that was the one we were interested in obtaining). The is not a chance in hell of IBM shipping a product based on code without a license grant in perpetuity already locked in a vault. > Lots of fbsd uses GPL'ed code... hmm gcc for example. FreeBSD _utilizes_ this code, it does not _use_ it. The gcc code can be diked out of a FreeBSD system, without crippling the utility of the system. In an embeded product, that code _is_ diked out. There is no gcc code linked into the FreeBSD kernel. > Let get to the point were XFS is in such demand on fbsd > we can get a petition going if necessary to have the license > updated. Demand is very different; it is an aspect of marketing. How much demand do you want, and where do you want it directed? I believe that it would be a trivial exercise to generate as much demand as you require. > BTW if anybody is interested a few of us have started looking > at actually doing the port. Not much has been done at this > point... basically battling through header file cleanup. If you have your head wrapped around it already, file system code is really very trivial, particularly if you have code that already works in one environment, and are merely porting it. I'll tell you what: give me a pointer to the code without the Linux modifications, so that I won't inadvertantly include code that is derived from GPL'ed code, and I will create a FreeBSD port of the code, with all code additions, which will compile and link successfully in a FreeBSD kernel, in a matter of a few days. I will additionally require an image of an XFS FS on a floppy disk, which I can use for compatability testing. There should be one file with an example of each thing the FS is capable of representing, including a directory, a directory with a subdirectory, a file, and a directory with two files; the files should be short, but if immediate files exist, one should be long enough to trigger indirection. It would be most useful if the image were zero'ed before it was created, so I am able to distinguish XFS written data from "blank floppy" contents (and to aid compression of the image). I will provide my code for FTP, which will be licensed to explicitly prohibit all but developement use, with a license which will transform itself to the three clause Berkeley license, if the XFS code which it's designed to work with is also released under a Berkeley-style license, and a release from patent claims in the covered code. In other words, the code I provide will be useless to everyone but FS researchers, unless the SGI license on the XFS components it must be linked with change to permit BSD to use the code as a boot FS, and further, permit commercial use by not hiding submerged patent infringement lawsuits which will be sprung on the unwary, as soon as someone with deep pockets uses the code. Call me distrustful, but I am fully capable of delivering in a very short time frame, so I'm pretty much the only game. > Ohh one other comment: > The only time SGI may ask for a copy write reassignment is if > the contributed code affects the filesystem compatibility > between irix and linux. This would have to be a major > contribution before something like this would be an issue, and > some negotiation will most certainly be involved. You're damn straight there will be: SGI will be begging the author to assign rights to a derivative work of SGI's own code. If that author is philosophically adamant about the GPL, the assignment of rights will never happen, unless the author also lacks personal integrity, and SGI is willing to buy them out of their philosophical stubborness, or pay their own engineers to recreate the code. > Up to to this point all bug fixes have been linux related only > so it really isn't an issue. I maintain it probably never will be. Ask Vijay for my arguments in this regard; they boil down to the level of effort and complexity involved in FS hacking. It takes a professional, someone with academic rigor, to do useful work. Consider that the only minds capable of adding Soft Updates technology to XFS, without a huge capital expenditure, are existant _only_ in the BSD community. > This isn't SGI trying to be an ass... rather SGI trying to > provide the most compatible FS it can within the constrains > of many legal issues. A library style license of the Mozilla bent would have been able to accomplish this rather easily, without losing SGI rights to (putative) improvements, and without limiting the compatability of the license to nothing but Linux. Linux could archive it and treat it as a statically linked library used by the kernel or a kernel module. The effect on BSD would have been to require it to do what it does already, and for systems vendors to provide an "ld -r"'ed kernel and XFS source code. A pain in the ass, but livable for most commercial users and embedded systems vendors. I can't believe SGI's lawyers didn't know precisely what they were giving away, and what they weren't. -- So, are you going to point me at the pure (convertable to another license, since it contains only SGI contributions) SGI XFS code, and an image of a sample FS that I can write to a floppy for testing purposes? Meanwhile, I think the FreeBSD community should continue to pursue their own JFS, under a useful license that could then trigger commercial support for the programming required... That's how the BSD community gets professional programmers to do complex and unpleasent tasks, while other communities never get the unpleasent tasks (e.g. Soft Updates [Whistle/IBM], fully unified VM and buffer cache [Oracle], etc.) done at all, after all. Marketing is a poor coin for getting long term work done; it's too ephemeral for a long term investment to be worthwhile. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 2:47:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE2D537B401 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 02:47:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f19Al8468218 ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:47:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA62998 ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:47:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:47:04 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg Lehey Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gender in Indo-European languages (was: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008]) Message-ID: <20010209114704.A62359@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> <20010209095838.E11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010209095838.E11145@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 09:58:38AM +1030 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey said on Feb 9, 2001 at 09:58:38: > On Thursday, 8 February 2001 at 14:57:57 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > >> The idea is that if "his" is supposed to be gender-neutral in > >> generic situations, "her" should also be regarded as > >> gender-neutral. > > In a newly-designed language, this would be reasonable. In existing > languages there are syntactical conventions. In English and most > other languages I can think of, a group of people of mixed gender is > masculine. I read an excellent argument against this claim, in an article by Douglas Hofstadter. Or rather, against the claim that "man" means both man and women. You often see sentences like "Man is the only animal who hunts for pleasure." You *never* see sentences like "Man is a species which gives live birth to its young." It will always be "Man is a species where the females give live birth to their young." One comes across such examples every day. In a place I was in formerly, a male head of the department (the usual situation) was a "chairman", but a female head was a "chairperson". Which is ridiculous. Sorry, I think the conventions are not only biased, they aren't even consistent. I'm not in favour of continuing with them. An author of another TeX book (The joy of TeX, I think) used another convention which I liked: use E for both he and she. (Analogous to I for first person.) I forget what he did for his/him/her. Hofstadter has another article (printed in "Metamagical Themas") where he exchanges the usual sexist usages of "man" and "woman", for "black" and "white", with utterly horrifying results. I think that was the article which first made me think deeply about this issue. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 7: 8:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1FFE37B72C for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:49:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from WhizKid (r8.bfm.org [216.127.220.104]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:52:12 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010209085026.009e28e0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 08:50:26 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Gender in Indo-European languages In-Reply-To: <20010209114704.A62359@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010209095838.E11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> <20010209095838.E11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> In a newly-designed language, this would be reasonable. In existing >> languages there are syntactical conventions. In English and most >> other languages I can think of, a group of people of mixed gender is >> masculine. Argh! That's what we get for using English as the universal language. If we used Slovak, none of these problems would exist. (And yes, Slovak is an Indo-European language.) Slovak has a different word for man as a human being and a different one for man as a male human. Slovak does not need to say he, she, etc. Instead, it just uses the verb in the third person, and implies the appropriate pronoun. Furthermore, beside mine, yours, his, hers, etc, it has a personless variety of all the above (similar to Latin suus). It could be very roughly translated into English as "self's". So, we say things like "turn on self's computer!" and "turn on self's computer", and "turns on self's computer." Whereas in English these would be unclear and would have to be "turn on your computer", "I turn on my computer" and "he/she turns on his/her computer". It is amazing to me to see entire political movements being formed in the US based simply on the imperfection and rigidity of the English tongue. The most ridiculous thing I have ever seen was an author claiming that King Solomon was a sexist, basing that claim on the English translation of the Bible. Hehehe! She even claimed that English was the original language of mankind, then forgotten, and now being rediscovered. And this crap came out of a major US publishing house. Cheers, Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 8:31:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 753) id F16E237B97D; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:08:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:08:01 -0800 From: Adrian Chadd To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: Russell Cattelan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jack Rusher , Terry Lambert , Sam Leffler , Zhiui Zhang , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFS Message-ID: <20010209080801.A56926@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry said: > I am offering to do a preliminary port of the XFS code, > potentially to the point of minimally a read-only mount, and > perhaps much further, depending on the effort required. .. and I'm already (only initially) trudging my way through the linux XFS code and slowly fixing it up. I've hit a sticker - the lacking mount interface we have - which I'm also slowly reworking to be more flexible and suited to the XFS requirements. So Terry, if you'd like to help, lets sort out the mount interface, help me finish bits of the userland interface, and then we can work on getting the XFS kernel code in. .. i might say that from what I hear, it might be easier to port XFS to FreeBSD based on the original XFS code before it was Linux-ified, but I'm willing to walk through the linux code. Adrian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 11:39: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from deliverator.sgi.com (deliverator.sgi.com [204.94.214.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6F937B6EE; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ledzep.americas.sgi.com (ledzep.americas.sgi.com [137.38.226.97]) by deliverator.sgi.com (980309.SGI.8.8.8-aspam-6.2/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id LAA10650; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:37:32 -0800 (PST) mail_from (cattelan@thebarn.com) Received: from gibble.americas.sgi.com (gibble.americas.sgi.com [128.162.195.80]) by ledzep.americas.sgi.com (SGI-SGI-8.9.3/americas-smart-nospam1.1) with ESMTP id NAA26851; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:38:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from thebarn.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gibble.americas.sgi.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f19JbV020646; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:37:31 -0600 Message-ID: <3A8446FA.DCD17C7E@thebarn.com> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 13:37:30 -0600 From: Russell Cattelan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.1-XFS i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jack Rusher , Sam Leffler , Zhiui Zhang , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system References: <200102090856.BAA08304@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > OK, this is not a license war. I will lay it on the line. > Ok I did get a response from the lawyer... as in typical lawyer talk he didn't give much of a response either way, but I think he is open to discussion. Ok somebody from the BSD camp should an provide an example of an acceptable license. If I can present something other than abstract concept more progress can be made. The one major requirement is that somebody like Sun or IBM can't pick up the code and start commercializing it. And no I'm not saying restricting a commercial product with XFS, but restricting somebody from making XFS a commercial product unto itself. -- Russell Cattelan -- Digital Elves inc. -- Currently on loan to SGI Linux XFS core developer. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 11:42: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from deliverator.sgi.com (deliverator.sgi.com [204.94.214.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5B3437B6AE; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:41:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ledzep.americas.sgi.com (ledzep.americas.sgi.com [137.38.226.97]) by deliverator.sgi.com (980309.SGI.8.8.8-aspam-6.2/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id KAA04146; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:09:15 -0800 (PST) mail_from (cattelan@thebarn.com) Received: from gibble.americas.sgi.com (gibble.americas.sgi.com [128.162.195.80]) by ledzep.americas.sgi.com (SGI-SGI-8.9.3/americas-smart-nospam1.1) with ESMTP id MAA33083; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:10:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from thebarn.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gibble.americas.sgi.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f19I9E020316; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:09:14 -0600 Message-ID: <3A843249.D93D5952@thebarn.com> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 12:09:14 -0600 From: Russell Cattelan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.1-XFS i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jack Rusher , Sam Leffler , Zhiui Zhang , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system References: <200102090856.BAA08304@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > OK, this is not a license war. I will lay it on the line. > > I am offering to do a preliminary port of the XFS code, > potentially to the point of minimally a read-only mount, and > perhaps much further, depending on the effort required. > > The resulting code will have some nasty strings, based on > me assuming your comments are correct, and wanting some > guarantees on that, on my part. The strings go away when > your claims to SGI's actions are met. > > Below is my reply to your message, including the philosophical > basis for the strings, a description of the strings, and the > details of my offer. > > This offer is good for a starting date before 01 March 2001. > > -- > > > I'm not sure who you talked with? but it really it that simple. > > Vijay. The V.P. of Engineering at SGI who negotiated the > release of the code. I will quote one of his statements, > made to me in email: > > ] Can't you just relicense FreeBSD [under the GPL]? > > > The reason the GPL was chosen for XFS. > > It's the license Linux is using, and since > > the port is being done for Linux it makes sense. > > One would think a dual license. Alternately, one would think > they would use the LGPL, which would let people link it into > their kernels, as long as they gave source (which BSD does) > or otherwise permitted relinking. > > In other words, the GPL is not really an optimal license, if > they wanted wide use AND specific Linux license compatability. > I concluded from their choice that they were not going for > wide use, but instead wanted the marketing benefit of being > associated with Linux (lots of press, etc.). > > > SGI is also doing work with the XFree code, the work > > is being released under the X license (which is also > > an anti GPL license). > > The BSD and MIT licenses predate the GPL, so careful with the > word "anti" there... Well yes... but my point was that it is a more open license and the XFree projects has stated they want to keep it that way. > > > > SGI is basically matching license for licensee to > > whatever project they are contributing to. > > This from the lawyer that is doing all the open source work. > > Rather than the use to which the software is put; that's a bit > naieve, then, again. > > > I have stated this in the past but I will bring it up again. > > If sufficient momentum can be generated toward an fbsd port > > of XFS, it may be possible to go to the lawyers and have a another > > license drawn up. > > If we had it in writing that the code would be released under > a license usable by the BSD kernel, preferrably "matching license > for license", as you state, then we would commit to do the work. > > The problem we have is that the code under the current license > is useless to us, and unless we can be ensured that the code we > write to glue it in won't end up also being useless to us, there > is really no reason to commit the effort. > > > But unless the bsd community can show they are serious about > > XFS being ported it would be a waste of time to ask for > > something that SGI has very little business interesting in doing. > > So if we were to do a port, then SGI would have a business interest, > and would relicense the code? Can we have that in writing? > > > Note Darwin might be a big win in terms of making a business case > > for another platform. > > Darwin support would be automatic, with a FreeBSD port. Darwin > can use FreeBSD FS code, unmodified. Ohh? I got the impression the vm system is quite different. vfs and vnode may map quite effortlessly but that's not the part I'm concerned about. 95% of the work for linux port has been in the IO path. > > > > Let get to the point were XFS is in such demand on fbsd > > we can get a petition going if necessary to have the license > > updated. > > Demand is very different; it is an aspect of marketing. How > much demand do you want, and where do you want it directed? I > believe that it would be a trivial exercise to generate as much > demand as you require. I need something to say "hey look" people really want to use this. The half a dozen or so emails I've gotten requesting isn't enough to present to the lawyers say people really really want this. I can't promise anything, but I will send a note to the lawyer and see what kind of suggestion SGI would be open to. Would the LGPL satisfy things? This one might be the easiest to propose since it is close to the GPL (something they already understand), or provide an example of a license I can present. > This won't be an easy task, since the general attitude I will probably encounter... why should we care, we're doing linux not bsd. But I will try. > > > > BTW if anybody is interested a few of us have started looking > > at actually doing the port. Not much has been done at this > > point... basically battling through header file cleanup. > > If you have your head wrapped around it already, file system > code is really very trivial, particularly if you have code that > already works in one environment, and are merely porting it. > > I'll tell you what: give me a pointer to the code without the > Linux modifications, so that I won't inadvertantly include code > that is derived from GPL'ed code, and I will create a FreeBSD > port of the code, with all code additions, which will compile > and link successfully in a FreeBSD kernel, in a matter of a few > days. I will additionally require an image of an XFS FS on a > floppy disk, which I can use for compatability testing. There > should be one file with an example of each thing the FS is > capable of representing, including a directory, a directory > with a subdirectory, a file, and a directory with two files; > the files should be short, but if immediate files exist, one > should be long enough to trigger indirection. It would be most > useful if the image were zero'ed before it was created, so I am > able to distinguish XFS written data from "blank floppy" contents > (and to aid compression of the image). Hmm XFS can't run on a floppy; it's to small. Adrian Chad is working on the user land stuff now. once mkfs is running XFS can be written to a file and by use of proto file the image can be pre populated. > > I will provide my code for FTP, which will be licensed to > explicitly prohibit all but developement use, with a license > which will transform itself to the three clause Berkeley > license, if the XFS code which it's designed to work with > is also released under a Berkeley-style license, and a release > from patent claims in the covered code. > > In other words, the code I provide will be useless to everyone > but FS researchers, unless the SGI license on the XFS components > it must be linked with change to permit BSD to use the code as a > boot FS, and further, permit commercial use by not hiding submerged > patent infringement lawsuits which will be sprung on the unwary, > as soon as someone with deep pockets uses the code. > > Call me distrustful, but I am fully capable of delivering in a > very short time frame, so I'm pretty much the only game. > > > Ohh one other comment: > > The only time SGI may ask for a copy write reassignment is if > > the contributed code affects the filesystem compatibility > > between irix and linux. This would have to be a major > > contribution before something like this would be an issue, and > > some negotiation will most certainly be involved. > > You're damn straight there will be: SGI will be begging the > author to assign rights to a derivative work of SGI's own > code. If that author is philosophically adamant about the > GPL, the assignment of rights will never happen, unless the > author also lacks personal integrity, and SGI is willing to > buy them out of their philosophical stubborness, or pay > their own engineers to recreate the code. > > > Up to to this point all bug fixes have been linux related only > > so it really isn't an issue. > > I maintain it probably never will be. Ask Vijay for my > arguments in this regard; they boil down to the level of > effort and complexity involved in FS hacking. It takes a > professional, someone with academic rigor, to do useful work. > > Consider that the only minds capable of adding Soft Updates > technology to XFS, without a huge capital expenditure, are > existant _only_ in the BSD community. > > > This isn't SGI trying to be an ass... rather SGI trying to > > provide the most compatible FS it can within the constrains > > of many legal issues. > > A library style license of the Mozilla bent would have been > able to accomplish this rather easily, without losing SGI > rights to (putative) improvements, and without limiting the > compatability of the license to nothing but Linux. Linux > could archive it and treat it as a statically linked library > used by the kernel or a kernel module. > > The effect on BSD would have been to require it to do what > it does already, and for systems vendors to provide an "ld -r"'ed > kernel and XFS source code. A pain in the ass, but livable > for most commercial users and embedded systems vendors. > > I can't believe SGI's lawyers didn't know precisely what they > were giving away, and what they weren't. This Open Source thing is need to the closed world... they are struggling to understand how to best protect themselves yet work with the community. > > > -- > > So, are you going to point me at the pure (convertable to > another license, since it contains only SGI contributions) > SGI XFS code, and an image of a sample FS that I can write > to a floppy for testing purposes? I'll try to generate a tree from GPL release day 1. March 2000 Otherwise simply look at the CVS tree for the tag GPL-ENCUMBRANCE it was put on all the XFS code. > > > Meanwhile, I think the FreeBSD community should continue to > pursue their own JFS, under a useful license that could then > trigger commercial support for the programming required... Granted; But given the number of people SGI has doing the initial XFS work and the 3 years it took them ust to get the FS off the ground. I don't think we'll have anything real soon. > That's how the BSD community gets professional programmers > to do complex and unpleasent tasks, while other communities > never get the unpleasent tasks (e.g. Soft Updates [Whistle/IBM], > fully unified VM and buffer cache [Oracle], etc.) done at all, > after all. Marketing is a poor coin for getting long term > work done; it's too ephemeral for a long term investment to > be worthwhile. > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. -- Russell Cattelan -- Digital Elves inc. -- Currently on loan to SGI Linux XFS core developer. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 11:59:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from urban.iinet.net.au (urban.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64C5937B69B; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:59:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from muzak.iinet.net.au (muzak.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.237]) by urban.iinet.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA31350; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 03:58:59 +0800 Received: from elischer.org (reggae-13-225.nv.iinet.net.au [203.59.79.225]) by muzak.iinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA03325; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 03:56:25 +0800 Message-ID: <3A844BFF.D2C68053@elischer.org> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 11:58:55 -0800 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Russell Cattelan Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jack Rusher , Sam Leffler , Zhiui Zhang , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system References: <200102090856.BAA08304@usr08.primenet.com> <3A843249.D93D5952@thebarn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Russell Cattelan wrote: > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Darwin support would be automatic, with a FreeBSD port. Darwin > > can use FreeBSD FS code, unmodified. Unmodified is a bit of a hyperlbolae.. Let's say "there's probably a close mapping due to common anscestors" > > Ohh? I got the impression the vm system is quite different. > vfs and vnode may map quite effortlessly but that's not the > part I'm concerned about. > 95% of the work for linux port has been in the IO path. Remember that Darwin is based on Mach, and that FreeBSD is based on BSD4.4 which used the Mach VM, so we have a common anscestor in the VM systems too. > -- __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000-2001 ---> X_.---._/ v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 12:21:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (unknown [216.152.64.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF9B937B6A3 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:21:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from whenever ([216.152.68.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:21:03 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" Cc: Subject: RE: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:21:12 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Feb 8, 2001 at 14:57:57: > > > This discussion reminds me of the LaTeX macros that you use instead of > > > third person singular pronouns and possessive adjectives, which > > > alternate between the male and female form. > > I didn't know about this. Is it available on the ctan archives? > > I believe it's standard. I don't remember the name of the macros, > though I think it's something like \heshe, \Heshe, \hisher, \Hisher. > > DES The problem with these is that if you don't implement \shehe and \herhis as well, you're still being sexist. And if both are implemented, you have to chose which to use. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 12:21:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (unknown [216.152.64.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A0E37B491 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:21:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from whenever ([216.152.68.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:21:02 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: Subject: RE: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:21:11 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yes, and in the rare case that an "attacker" is anyone who can login > interactively on the system console, or upload and run executables on > the server, you should stop your users from "running" programs on the > box. Well, in that case, why not unplug the thing and bury it six feet > under, to prevent users from logging on the system interactively. Wasn't this the same company that obtained a C2 certification for one of there products providing that there was no network card in the box? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 12:36: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD0E337B6A9 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:35:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1338"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01JZWTL793IO009FNV@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:35:50 EST Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 15:49:51 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system To: Russell Cattelan Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jack Rusher , Sam Leffler , Zhiui Zhang Message-id: <3A8457EF.A1FD68EF@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <200102090856.BAA08304@usr08.primenet.com> <3A8446FA.DCD17C7E@thebarn.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (Remove fs from the CC list) Russell Cattelan wrote: > ... > Ok somebody from the BSD camp should an provide > an example of an acceptable license. > If I can present something other than abstract concept > more progress can be made. > I'm no one authorized but I guess s/Netscape/SGI on this: http://www.mozilla.org/MPL/MPL-1.1.txt would be a good start. It is cleaner than the LGPL. > The one major requirement is that somebody like Sun or > IBM can't pick up the code and start commercializing it. > And no I'm not saying restricting a commercial product > with XFS, but restricting somebody from making XFS > a commercial product unto itself. > > -- > Russell Cattelan > -- > Digital Elves inc. -- Currently on loan to SGI > Linux XFS core developer. > cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 12:38:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from milquetoast.cs.mcgill.ca (milquetoast.CS.McGill.CA [132.206.2.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CA7537B6AC for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:38:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mat@localhost) by milquetoast.cs.mcgill.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA19657; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:37:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:37:43 -0500 From: Mathew KANNER To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] Message-ID: <20010209153743.D18596@cs.mcgill.ca> References: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> <20010208150641.A15166@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010208193726.04763b10@localhost> <20010209143121.J16260@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message [Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008]] as of Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 02:31:21PM +1030 Organization: I speak for myself, operating in Montreal, CANADA Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Feb 08, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 8 February 2001 at 19:39:21 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 07:06 AM 2/8/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > >> And I learned of this amusing situation in French: the plural pronoun, > >> unlike in English, is gender-biased; it's "elles" only when the gender > >> of all parties is feminine, otherwise (for all-masculine or mixed) > >> it's "ils". > > > > Ah, but at least they have the unisex pronoun "on." > > "on" is masculine. Yes, it's used to represent females as well. But > that's what we did in English too, until Political Correctness got the > better of grammar. Really? I have a vague memory of being taught that it was used when the speaker is referring to a group of people, which he is a member of -- no inference on the makeup of the group nor speaker can be made, Much like "we" in English. On a un-related note, when I was growing up, I bounced between fracophone and anglophone schools, as a result, I don't really know any language well. Can anyone suggest a good "English grammar for programmers" type book? --Mat > > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers -- Mathew Kanner Sys Admin at large Obtuse quote: He [not me] understands: "This field of perception is void of perception of man." -- The Quintessence of Buddhism To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 12:56:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFEB637B6B2 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:56:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #3) id 14RKZv-0006Bj-00; Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:55:39 +0000 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:55:39 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: David Schwartz Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] Message-ID: <20010209205539.R461@hand.dotat.at> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > > Wasn't this the same company that obtained a C2 certification for one of >there products providing that there was no network card in the box? No fdd either. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at FAEROES SOUTHEAST ICELAND: SOUTH OR SOUTHEAST 4 OR 5 INCREASING 6 TO GALE 8, PERHAPS SEVERE GALE 9 LATER. SLEET OR SNOW. MAINLY GOOD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 13:15:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (unknown [216.152.64.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069E537B6D1 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:14:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from whenever ([216.152.68.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:14:43 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Tony Finch" Cc: "Giorgos Keramidas" , Subject: RE: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:14:52 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <20010209205539.R461@hand.dotat.at> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > David Schwartz wrote: > >Wasn't this the same company that obtained a C2 > >certification for one of > >there products providing that there was no network card in the box? > > No fdd either. > > Tony. Man. Were you allowed to have a power cord? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 15:39:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB94537B6AA for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:39:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id AD7936A90D; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:09:26 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:09:26 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Mathew KANNER Cc: Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Indo-European Grammar (was: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008]) Message-ID: <20010210100926.P16260@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> <20010208150641.A15166@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010208193726.04763b10@localhost> <20010209143121.J16260@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010209153743.D18596@cs.mcgill.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010209153743.D18596@cs.mcgill.ca>; from mat@cs.mcgill.ca on Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 03:37:43PM -0500 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 9 February 2001 at 15:37:43 -0500, Mathew KANNER wrote: > On Feb 08, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Thursday, 8 February 2001 at 19:39:21 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >>> At 07:06 AM 2/8/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >>> >>>> And I learned of this amusing situation in French: the plural pronoun, >>>> unlike in English, is gender-biased; it's "elles" only when the gender >>>> of all parties is feminine, otherwise (for all-masculine or mixed) >>>> it's "ils". >>> >>> Ah, but at least they have the unisex pronoun "on." >> >> "on" is masculine. Yes, it's used to represent females as well. But >> that's what we did in English too, until Political Correctness got the >> better of grammar. > > Really? I have a vague memory of being taught that it was > used when the speaker is referring to a group of people, which he is a > member of -- no inference on the makeup of the group nor speaker can > be made, Much like "we" in English. You can use it like that as well, unlike "one" in English. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 15:47:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7C5337B6B2 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:46:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 4135B6A916; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:16:52 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:16:52 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gender in Indo-European languages Message-ID: <20010210101652.Q16260@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010209095838.E11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> <20010209095838.E11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010209114704.A62359@lpt.ens.fr> <3.0.6.32.20010209085026.009e28e0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010209085026.009e28e0@mail85.pair.com>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 08:50:26AM -0600 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 9 February 2001 at 8:50:26 -0600, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >>> In a newly-designed language, this would be reasonable. In existing >>> languages there are syntactical conventions. In English and most >>> other languages I can think of, a group of people of mixed gender is >>> masculine. > > Argh! That's what we get for using English as the universal language. > If we used Slovak, none of these problems would exist. (And yes, > Slovak is an Indo-European language.) > > Slovak has a different word for man as a human being and a different > one for man as a male human. So do many Indo-European languages. In German, "human being" is "Mensch", and "man" is "Mann". > Slovak does not need to say he, she, etc. Instead, it just uses the > verb in the third person, and implies the appropriate pronoun. This is typical of the slavonic languages, of course. > Furthermore, beside mine, yours, his, hers, etc, it has a personless > variety of all the above (similar to Latin suus). It could be very > roughly translated into English as "self's". So, we say things like > "turn on self's computer!" and "turn on self's computer", and "turns > on self's computer." Whereas in English these would be unclear and > would have to be "turn on your computer", "I turn on my computer" > and "he/she turns on his/her computer". This sounds like a reflexive pronoun, though I can't think of a similar usage in other languages for this particular case. I could imagine a dialectical use something like "start yourself your computer". > It is amazing to me to see entire political movements being formed > in the US based simply on the imperfection and rigidity of the > English tongue. > > The most ridiculous thing I have ever seen was an author claiming > that King Solomon was a sexist, basing that claim on the English > translation of the Bible. Hehehe! She even claimed that English was > the original language of mankind, then forgotten, and now being > rediscovered. And this crap came out of a major US publishing house. I think this says more about the people than the language. I'd guess that, in fact, English is one of the most flexible languages I know. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 16:27:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eris.siliconinc.net (eris.siliconinc.net [209.209.49.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5DF0C37B6D8 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:27:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6068 invoked by uid 1004); 10 Feb 2001 00:27:18 -0000 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:27:18 -0800 From: sil@antioffline.com To: Richard Wilson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20010209162718.A21618@antioffline.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from wk633@victoria.tc.ca on Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 04:05:21PM -0800 X-Operating-System: OpenBSD 2.8 i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I'm probably not the first to point out (or if I am, I'm only the first to > be stupid enough to spend the time) the following from > http://www.openbsd.org/ports.html: Can't we all just get along. First off the advisories we're jokes I made with friends and I never sent them out, or did I? Wouldn't make a difference anyways so here's my take. Your pointing out something I already know and I am speaking for myself and not some OpenBSD cause. FYI I use FBSD at work since it supports multi processors and has some features that Open doesn't. However 4 CD's filled with stuff that I could give a rats (let me be polite) anus about is outrageous. Its no wonder why Free is on record pace to release a slew of advisories. Listen I poke fun at everybody including OpenBSD its just my website's irreverent way of making geeks laugh when there's not much else to read about and their getting sick of the bull (let me be nice again) crap posted on sites like Slashdot and DaemonNews. THEY ARE JOKES NO NEED TO GET BENT OUT OF SHAPE like that hermophradite luser named Kitana who jumped in #openbsd on IRC and had an attack as if the world was coming to an end. >=20 > "The ports & packages collection does NOT go through the thorough security > audit that OpenBSD follows. Although we strive to keep the quality of the > packages collection high, we just do not have enough human resources to > ensure the same level of robustness and security."=20 Can you post this in Swedish for me my enlish no too good >=20 > So, serious question, how do you know there are no trojans on YOUR > servers? Do you audit the source? Or do you trust Theo & Co to 'strive'? > Or do you run with the default install? > Uh as a matter of fact, my server is a default install of Open behind a Nokia IP650 with IPF still used between hosts along with Checkpoint's rules with daemons piped through stunnel. I do go through most of the things I install on my network. So the answer is yes, no here is one for you, would you trust your network with an OS that has had more advisories than crappier OS' (Windows) for the year? J. Oquendo sil@disgraced.org http://www.disgraced.org sil@antioffline.com http://www.antioffline.com A student once said: "When I was a Buddhist, it drove my parents and friends crazy, but when I am a buddha, nobody is upset at all." JON KABAT-ZINN, WHEREVER YOU GO THERE YOU ARE --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use MessageID: QBagQ/glFU4rC5Rww8U8UrR+OpOlZbz4 iQA/AwUBOoSK5eU/L6n1j1zqEQJMXACeLqKCzIWahiguctytfVkrWkDk9NUAoIvw D10PqFNF4AWYdwcg/1qLhg3a =lAJ1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 16:31: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 625F837B69D for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 14RNw7-00030Q-00; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 01:30:47 +0100 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f1A0F5343395 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 01:15:05 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:15:04 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <962168$1abq$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208193726.04763b10@localhost> <20010209143121.J16260@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010209153743.D18596@cs.mcgill.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mathew KANNER wrote: [French] > > "on" is masculine. > > Really? I have a vague memory of being taught that it was > used when the speaker is referring to a group of people, which he is a > member of -- no inference on the makeup of the group nor speaker can > be made, Much like "we" in English. Semantically, "on" can be either: - An impersonal third person, like German "man". In English the same is expressed variously with one/you/they or passive voice. - First person plural in colloquial language. Grammatically, "on" is always third person singular as you can see from the verb agreement. The gender can be deduced from the participle in compound tenses: "on est allé" => masculine. Of course French has grammatical gender, which makes all this somewhat irrelevant to the discussion at hand as Modern English doesn't. The English pronoun coreference (he/she/it, they--which/who) is based on the semantics of the word. The resulting system is quite complicated. A simplified overview from Quirk/Greenbaum/Leech/Svartvik, _A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language_: PRONOUN GENDER CLASS EXAMPLE COREFERENCE .- (a) male brother who - he |- (b) female sister who - she .- personal ----+- (c) dual doctor who - he/she | .- |- (d) common baby who - he/she/it animate --| | | which - it | |- `- (e) collective family which - it | | who - they `- non- --+---- (f) higher which - he/it personal | male bull (who) - he | animal |---- (g) higher which - she/it | female cow (who) - she | animal `---- (h) lower ant which - it animal (he/she) inanimate ------------------ (i) inanimate box which - it > Can anyone suggest a good "English grammar for programmers" type book? In practice, you don't learn grammar from reading a book about it. You learn it by unconsciously mimicking other people's speech or writing. English grammar is fiendishly complex. The abovementioned book is the standard reference. Weighing in at 1780 pages, it is indeed quite comprehensive but certainly not complete. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 17:24:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 618EE37B503 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:24:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA342C; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:28:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3A849787.A4547F36@acuson.com> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 17:21:11 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sil@antioffline.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: your mail References: <20010209162718.A21618@antioffline.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org sil@antioffline.com wrote: > Your pointing out something I already know and I am speaking for myself > and not some OpenBSD cause. FYI I use FBSD at work since it supports > multi processors and has some features that Open doesn't. However 4 CD's > filled with stuff that I could give a rats (let me be polite) anus about > is outrageous. Its no wonder why Free is on record pace to release a slew > of advisories. FreeBSD (and OpenBSD, for that matter) are used in a huge variety of applications and settings. I, for one, do not use it as a server. I have no need for a server. I use it as a single-user home system with games, word processors, screen savers and foofy desktops. Ports are EXTREMELY useful for me, and I suspect they are equally useful for 95% of the FreeBSD usership. Limiting FreeBSD users to just the base distribution is simply not a viable option. If you have a problem with ports, then it is up to you not to install any. If you don't want to purchase four CD's when you only need one, then try one of the other dozen ways to acquire FreeBSD besides purchasing the official 4-CD set. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 17:37:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (f31.law12.hotmail.com [64.4.19.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9190337B65D; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:36:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:36:58 -0800 Received: from 216.228.161.21 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 01:36:58 GMT X-Originating-IP: [216.228.161.21] From: "Samantha Hamon" To: sil@antioffline.com, wk633@victoria.tc.ca Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 01:36:58 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Feb 2001 01:36:58.0180 (UTC) FILETIME=[F50B9040:01C09301] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oh yes, It is email like this that reminds me why I remain on this mailing list. :) >From: sil@antioffline.com >To: Richard Wilson >CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: your mail >Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:27:18 -0800 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125])by >mail.bendnet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2/BendNet) with ESMTP id f1A0Rpf34878for >; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:27:52 -0800 (PST) >Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18])by >mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTPid 0471F6E2A61; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 >16:27:45 -0800 (PST) >Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 538)id A461937B69D; Fri, > 9 Feb 2001 16:27:43 -0800 (PST) >Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])by hub.freebsd.org >(Postfix) with SMTPid B2F4B2E81BD; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:27:42 -0800 (PST) >Received: by hub.freebsd.org (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:27:42 >-0800 >Received: from eris.siliconinc.net (eris.siliconinc.net [209.209.49.200])by >hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5D67837B69Bfor >; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:27:21 -0800 (PST) >Received: (qmail 6068 invoked by uid 1004); 10 Feb 2001 00:27:18 -0000 >Return-Path: >Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org >Message-ID: <20010209162718.A21618@antioffline.com> >References: >User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i >In-Reply-To: ; from >wk633@victoria.tc.ca on Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 04:05:21PM -0800 >X-Operating-System: OpenBSD 2.8 i386 >Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG >X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Precedence: bulk >Status: > > > I'm probably not the first to point out (or if I am, I'm only the first >to > > be stupid enough to spend the time) the following from > > http://www.openbsd.org/ports.html: > >Can't we all just get along. First off the advisories we're jokes I made >with friends and I never sent them out, or did I? Wouldn't make a >difference >anyways so here's my take. > >Your pointing out something I already know and I am speaking for myself >and not some OpenBSD cause. FYI I use FBSD at work since it supports >multi processors and has some features that Open doesn't. However 4 CD's >filled with stuff that I could give a rats (let me be polite) anus about >is outrageous. Its no wonder why Free is on record pace to release a slew >of advisories. > >Listen I poke fun at everybody including OpenBSD its just my website's >irreverent way of making geeks laugh when there's not much else to read >about and their getting sick of the bull (let me be nice again) crap >posted on sites like Slashdot and DaemonNews. > >THEY ARE JOKES NO NEED TO GET BENT OUT OF SHAPE like that hermophradite >luser named Kitana who jumped in #openbsd on IRC and had an attack as if >the world was coming to an end. > > > > > "The ports & packages collection does NOT go through the thorough >security > > audit that OpenBSD follows. Although we strive to keep the quality of >the > > packages collection high, we just do not have enough human resources to > > ensure the same level of robustness and security." > >Can you post this in Swedish for me my enlish no too good > > > > > So, serious question, how do you know there are no trojans on YOUR > > servers? Do you audit the source? Or do you trust Theo & Co to >'strive'? > > Or do you run with the default install? > > > >Uh as a matter of fact, my server is a default install of Open behind a >Nokia IP650 with IPF still used between hosts along with Checkpoint's >rules with daemons piped through stunnel. I do go through most of the >things I install on my network. So the answer is yes, no here is one for >you, would you trust your network with an OS that has had more advisories >than crappier OS' (Windows) for the year? > >J. Oquendo >sil@disgraced.org http://www.disgraced.org >sil@antioffline.com http://www.antioffline.com > >A student once said: "When I was a Buddhist, it drove >my parents and friends crazy, but when I am a buddha, >nobody is upset at all." > >JON KABAT-ZINN, WHEREVER YOU GO THERE YOU ARE ><< attach3 >> _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 9 17:50:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B602C37B401; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:49:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from xor.obsecurity.org ([63.207.60.67]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G8I008R0PBADC@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net>; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:26:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by xor.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 61BE666B62; Fri, 09 Feb 2001 17:28:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 17:28:42 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: your mail In-reply-to: <20010209162718.A21618@antioffline.com>; from sil@antioffline.com on Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 04:27:18PM -0800 To: sil@antioffline.com Cc: Richard Wilson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Message-id: <20010209172842.A79838@mollari.cthul.hu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6" Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: <20010209162718.A21618@antioffline.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 04:27:18PM -0800, sil@antioffline.com wrote: > Can't we all just get along. First off the advisories we're jokes I made > with friends and I never sent them out, or did I? Wouldn't make a difference > anyways so here's my take. Wow, you guys certainly know how to write good material. Have you considered stand-up? > things I install on my network. So the answer is yes, no here is one for > you, would you trust your network with an OS that has had more advisories > than crappier OS' (Windows) for the year? So, you feel happier with the same insecure ports existing in your OpenBSD ports collection, because they DON'T announce the vulnerabilities? We're doing both communities a service here, bud. The overwhelming majority of advisories we issue don't relate to the default installation of FreeBSD, and it is an act of sheer ignorance (or malice) to associate ports advisories with insecurity of FreeBSD. Kris --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6hJlJWry0BWjoQKURAhOsAKD6PayR1c4kBtO+8ZH/rOmh8sJ5EACghvYI qLFXSykTOdIFUPSlbZ+8J9A= =4w5L -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 10 4:13:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4026637B6A0 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 04:13:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from xor.obsecurity.org ([63.207.60.15]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G8G00A2JTMADT@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by xor.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BF5E166B62; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 17:06:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 17:06:26 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: FreeBSD Ports Security Advisory: FreeBSD-SA-01:INSERT_NUMBER_HERE In-reply-to: <200102090101.SAA29682@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 01:00:59AM +0000 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Message-id: <20010208170626.A50989@mollari.cthul.hu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO" Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: <200102082016.PAA29933@vws3.interlog.com> <200102090101.SAA29682@usr08.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 01:00:59AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Topic: FreeBSD on record to set most advisory releases for > > year 2001 >=20 > Heh. But obviously someone is out to challenge them for the record, > issuing these ones, since they weren't issued by FreeBSD. >=20 > [ ... ] >=20 > > We will not be mentioning the ultra secure OpenBSD operating system > > since we feel it is not our problem and does not help to promote a > > better OS than our own. >=20 > The interesting problem here is that OpenBSD is vulnerable to > hardware limitation based attacks at boot time. They themselves > draw the line at auditing the hardware and firmware of every > motherboard out there. Some viable attacks on OpenBSD can still > be instituted via a network connection. You have to draw the > line somewhere, and that's one of the places they draw theirs. Actually, what I find really funny is that this guy doesn't realise that OpenBSD have many of the same ports in their ports collection, which are vulnerable to the same problems. They just don't have the resources (or desire, or whatever - I'm not knocking OpenBSD for this) to write advisories for them. Kris --2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6g0KSWry0BWjoQKURAnkWAKD8ciIWBr7HPuNwINx9CQ+OSiSATgCgllmp ts0ifbylmbFrIUYhkhqlScQ= =WsgP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2oS5YaxWCcQjTEyO-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 10 6:19:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189EE37B4EC for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 06:19:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA80507; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:18:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Greg Lehey Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gender in Indo-European languages References: <20010209095838.E11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> <20010209095838.E11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010209114704.A62359@lpt.ens.fr> <3.0.6.32.20010209085026.009e28e0@mail85.pair.com> <20010210101652.Q16260@wantadilla.lemis.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Feb 2001 15:18:52 +0100 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:16:52 +1030" Message-ID: Lines: 28 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > > Slovak does not need to say he, she, etc. Instead, it just uses the > > verb in the third person, and implies the appropriate pronoun. > This is typical of the slavonic languages, of course. Ooh, that reminds me. Finnish doesn't have gender. At all. It's been a long time and I don't have my TY at hand, but as I recall there are two third person singular pronouns - one for animate and one for inanimate objects. And in daily speech, the pronoun is usually contracted or even dropped - "Minä olen norjalainen" (I am Norwegian) is abbreviated to "Mä olen norjalainen" or even "Olen norjalainen". The interrogative form is indicated by a verb suffix, so there's no need for any pronoun there either even though there's no change in intonation: "Oletko sinä norjalainen?" (are you Norwegian?) can be abbreviated to "Oletko norjalainen?" because the -ko ending distinguishes it from the affirmative "(sinä) olet norjalainen" (you are Norwegian). (I don't remember capitalization rules for Finnish, so it's possible "norjalainen" is supposed to be written "Norjalainen). (this is partly from memory, partly from old handwritten notes, so some of the above may be incorrect) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 10 6:28:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9C1E37B401 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 06:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA80544; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:28:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laugh: [Fwd: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS01-008] References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208193726.04763b10@localhost> <20010209143121.J16260@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010209153743.D18596@cs.mcgill.ca> <962168$1abq$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Feb 2001 15:28:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: naddy@mips.inka.de's message of "Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:15:04 +0000 (UTC)" Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) writes: > Semantically, "on" can be either: > - An impersonal third person, like German "man". In English the > same is expressed variously with one/you/they or passive voice. > - First person plural in colloquial language. While "on" as first person plural is common in colloquial speech, it is grammatically incorrect. You'll rarely see it used that way in writing, and my mother still corrects me when I do so in her presence :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 10 8:32: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rapier.smartspace.co.za (rapier.smartspace.co.za [66.8.25.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C5AF137B401 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 73943 invoked by uid 1001); 10 Feb 2001 16:31:20 -0000 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:31:20 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Greg Lehey , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Gender, animation, and other random titbits about Xhosa Message-ID: <20010210183120.A70514@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: <20010209095838.E11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> <20010209095838.E11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010209114704.A62359@lpt.ens.fr> <3.0.6.32.20010209085026.009e28e0@mail85.pair.com> <20010210101652.Q16260@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 03:18:52PM +0100 Organization: Building Intelligence X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat 2001-02-10 (15:18), Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: > > > Slovak does not need to say he, she, etc. Instead, it just uses the > > > verb in the third person, and implies the appropriate pronoun. > > This is typical of the slavonic languages, of course. > > Ooh, that reminds me. > > Finnish doesn't have gender. At all. Just for interest's sake, neither do the isiNguni linguistic family spoken in Southern Africa (Xhosa, Zulu, Swazi, and others). I'm also relatively sure the majority of Central-African derived Bantu languages of the same region are similar. And now a tangeant... Xhosa has generic third person, somewhat integrated (with some major exceptions) with one of the six sets of singular-plural noun class pairs (which sometimes have multiple levels, just to make things more fun): 1/2 - "u(m)"/"aba" 1a/2a - "o"/"aba" 3/4 - "u(m)"/"imi" 5/6 - "(il)i"/"ama" 7/8 - "isi"/"izi" (also "i"/"ii", iirc) 9/10 - "in"/"izin" 11/10 - "(ul)u"/"izin" two "abstract" noun classes 14 - "ubu" - "ubuntu", humaneness, and concepts like that. 15 - "uku" - infinitive, non-pluralisable words (In English, things like "food", "sheep", "fish"), and others. Most tense and class identifiers are prefixed or suffixed to the verb (one exception I can think of is the negative form eating the initial vowel of objects), making extremely complex verb forms. ``Akumbethani?'', with the verb form "-betha" (hit) with the negative second person singular (or 1/3 class noun) subject prefix form "aku-" (you not), the inline object form for third person singular (or 1/3 class noun) "-m-" (him/her), and the "-ni" interrogative suffix. I get the impression I've forgotten the "recent past tense" form for the verb for the example (which may suffer from other problems too); Xhosa has recent past and "long-time-ago" past tenses. Getting back to gender and (in)animates; some nouns are inherently female (imfazi/young woman, umama/older woman) or male (umntwana/boy), and some are in somewhat of a generic masculine (utitshala for teacher, but utitshalakazi for when addressing a woman teacher), the -kazi extension applies to things like dogs (inja -> injakazi), but isn't a generic way to indicate feminine (at least as far as I remember). The pronouns don't denote gender, though. As an aside, pronouns include an "automatic" inline subject prefix to verbs, leading to "ubhuti uhamba esikolweni", "The boy, he goes to school". There isn't an inanimate/animate distinction either, but some classes have preportionately more human or animates in them (1/2 comes to mind for people, and 7/8 for general animates). I'm not sure why I'm mentioning all of this, but this is -chat. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 10 19:18:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6468137B401 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 5DA9B6ACA3; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:48:36 +1030 (CST) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:48:36 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Gender in non-Indo-European languages (was: Gender in Indo-European languages) Message-ID: <20010211134836.C75244@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010209095838.E11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> <20010209095838.E11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010209114704.A62359@lpt.ens.fr> <3.0.6.32.20010209085026.009e28e0@mail85.pair.com> <20010210101652.Q16260@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 03:18:52PM +0100 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 10 February 2001 at 15:18:52 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >>> Slovak does not need to say he, she, etc. Instead, it just uses the >>> verb in the third person, and implies the appropriate pronoun. >> This is typical of the slavonic languages, of course. > > Ooh, that reminds me. > > Finnish doesn't have gender. At all. It's been a long time and I don't > have my TY at hand, but as I recall there are two third person > singular pronouns - one for animate and one for inanimate objects. And > in daily speech, the pronoun is usually contracted or even dropped - > "Minä olen norjalainen" (I am Norwegian) is abbreviated to "Mä olen > norjalainen" or even "Olen norjalainen". The interrogative form is > indicated by a verb suffix, so there's no need for any pronoun there > either even though there's no change in intonation: "Oletko sinä > norjalainen?" (are you Norwegian?) can be abbreviated to "Oletko > norjalainen?" because the -ko ending distinguishes it from the > affirmative "(sinä) olet norjalainen" (you are Norwegian). Hmm. This is interesting. Finnish isn't Indo-European, of course, and the original speakers of the Finno-Ugric languages came from North-East Asia. In Chinese, a question is indicated by a -ma at the end of the sentence, and in Malay it's indicated by -ka. Both of these languages also have no gender, though there are some different words for males and females of recognizable species. I wonder how it works in Hungarian and Turkish. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 10 20:48:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kendra.ne.mediaone.net (kendra.ne.mediaone.net [24.218.227.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3037337B401; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:48:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from xena (xena.hh.kew.com [192.168.203.148]) by kendra.ne.mediaone.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 44A068C4F; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:48:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <009c01c093e5$d1cd7230$94cba8c0@hh.kew.com> From: "Drew Derbyshire" To: References: <200102082014.PAA29877@vws3.interlog.com> Subject: FreeBSD Postfix and Majordomo security (was FreeBSD Ports Security Advisory: FreeBSD-SA-01:INSERT_NUMBER_HERE) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:48:04 -0500 Organization: Kendra Electronic Wonderworks, Stoneham, MA 02180 (http://www.kew.com) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (Headers rigged to move follow ups to -chat ...) Since the FreeBSD site runs postfix, the fix to block external postings to the announce list is a Postfix FAQ, using a regular expression filter. This would require direct trusted posters to go through a local (or otherwise trusted IP), and cannot be beaten by forged headers. (Hint, hint!) The belief that signing advisories sorts out the good from the bad is naive. The negative impression is left on users when the reader realizes a bogus post from an official mailing list is bogus in the first place. (Nor do most mail clients support automatically decoding the key. Heck, I get global whining for using any sort of MIME at all in mail.) In general, I'm amazed that after all the SPAM on the FreeBSD mailing lists that they haven't gone to post-only-by subscribers in general -- clearly, the maintainers don't seem to care about the lists's quality as much as some of the subscribers do. Yes, yes, I've heard the "but we need to let any one post ..." argument, and refuse to believe it given hackish nature of the FreeBSD mailing lists, and general disdain for end-users. (Linux will rule the world, because organizations like RedHat support relatively clean binary patches using up2date between releases -- it makes me sad when I compare this to FreeBSD securty advisories which offer choices of source patches or "upgrade to Release 4.x-STABLE after the specified" date, given that such configurations have a prereq of reading the -stable mailing list and generally breathing FreeBSD.) -ahd- -- Drew Derbyshire UUPC/extended e-mail: software+sig@kew.com Telephone: 617-279-9812 "I've got to start listening to those quiet, nagging doubts." - Calvin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message