From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 18 16:46:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.mooseriver.com (agora.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1E5137B491 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:46:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.babug.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24836 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 00:06:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199602150806.AAA24836@agora.babug.org> Subject: BAFUG Announce To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 00:05:01 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter, and Retail notice. This is posted on the first of the month. If there are any questions please send them to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Thanks *** JOBS NOTICE *** San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. *** COUNTER NOTICE *** FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. *** RETAIL NOTICE *** Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. -- $Id: BafugAnnounce.txt,v 1.2 1999/10/01 07:10:24 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 19 1: 3:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-165-226-53.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.165.226.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17ED137B4EC for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 01:03:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5015166D48; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 01:03:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 01:03:41 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Josef Grosch Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BAFUG Announce Message-ID: <20010219010341.A16204@mollari.cthul.hu> References: <199602150806.AAA24836@agora.babug.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="J/dobhs11T7y2rNN" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <199602150806.AAA24836@agora.babug.org>; from jgrosch@agora.mooseriver.com on Thu, Feb 15, 1996 at 12:05:01AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thu, Feb 15, 1996 at 12:05:01AM -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: > This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter, > and Retail notice. This is posted on the first of the month. If there are > any questions please send them to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Damn, I was 5 years late for this one. Kris --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6kOFsWry0BWjoQKURAp91AKDL5fRGzWb6PslutQyGHnRUmuE/XQCgiOuC xeJRz2r+3ed17+7pcGfTZhI= =oqYr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 19 6:47:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B164037B4EC for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:47:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3530 invoked by uid 100); 19 Feb 2001 14:47:45 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14993.12817.163346.819493@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:47:45 -0600 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: The wonders of spam filtering. X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, it seems that someone on the -questions list has an ISP who believes in filting mail from sites that have "Free" in the name. That almost certainly catches a a lot of spam. The minority who have a legitimate use for those kinds of names can just choose another name, right? Bleah, Delivered-To: mwm@192.168.1.1 Received: (qmail 2562 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2001 14:31:04 -0000 Received: from librarian.mired.org (192.168.1.130) by guru.mired.org with SMTP; 19 Feb 2001 14:31:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 10492 invoked by uid 100); 19 Feb 2001 14:31:03 -0000 Delivered-To: mwm@mired.org Received: (qmail 10489 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2001 14:31:02 -0000 Received: from cable-115-7-237-24.anchorageak.net (HELO nebula.anchoragerescue.org) (24.237.7.115) by librarian.mired.org with SMTP; 19 Feb 2001 14:31:02 -0000 Received: from anchoragerescue.org (nebula.anchoragerescue.org [24.237.7.115]) by nebula.anchoragerescue.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 77F75186 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 05:30:26 -0900 (AKST) Reply-To: Beech Rintoul X-Mailer: NAGS Mail Filter v3.B2 X-lewp: NAGS Message-Id: <20010219143026.77F75186@nebula.anchoragerescue.org> From: "Beech Rintoul To: mwm@mired.org Subject: REJECTED MAIL Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 05:30:26 -0900 (AKST) Your mail has been rejected for the following reason(s): Site match: \bfree One of the sites that your mail to me passed through matched my list of spammers. If this match was intentional, your mail was rejected because I receive large amounts of junk email from one of the sites your mail originated from or passed through on its way to me. Since I receive more junk than legitimate mail from your site, it has been added to my junk list. If you are a legitimate user of this system you should realize that your system administrators either are involved in a campaign to send out millions of pieces of unwanted email to the internet or they are unwilling to put a stop to their users that are engaging in this form of abuse. It is also possible that your site name matches a word or pattern that I have deemed suspicious (i.e. money). If you have a legitimate reason to contact me, you may get your mail through the filter by using the following subject: I AM NOT SPAM I will then add you to my 'okay' list so future mail will not be rejected. NOTE: If you reply to this letter, it will *NOT* go to me. You must send a new piece of mail or forward your original piece of mail to my address. This has been to avoid receiving autoresponse messages from these rejection letters. If the email you sent to me was a piece of unsolicited commercial email, you should be aware that in addition to being rude, UCE is also illegal: From: http://www.ca-probate.com/faxlaw.htm Under United States law, it is unlawful "to use any telephone facsimile machine, computer, or other device to send an unsolicited advertisement" to any "equipment which has the capacity (A) to transcribe text or images (or both) from an electronic signal received over a regular telephone line onto paper." The law allows individuals to sue the sender of such illegal "junk mail" for $500 per copy. Most states will permit such actions to be filed in Small Claims Court. NAGS Email Filter v3.B2 A service of Netizens Against Gratuitous Spamming http://www.nags.org/ Beech Rintoul [akbeech@anchoragerescue.org] The text of the rejected email follows: --------------------------------------- > From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Feb 19 05:29:54 2001 > Return-Path: > Delivered-To: akbeech@anchoragerescue.org > Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) > by nebula.anchoragerescue.org (Postfix) with ESMTP > id 863F3185; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 05:29:53 -0900 (AKST) > Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) > by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP > id C9E3F6E27B7; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:29:50 -0800 (PST) > Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 538) > id 5F65237B65D; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:29:49 -0800 (PST) > Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP > id 3D82D2E80EF; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:29:49 -0800 (PST) > Received: by hub.freebsd.org (bulk_mailer v1.12); Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:29:49 -0800 > Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) > by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 969E737B4EC > for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:29:46 -0800 (PST) > Received: (qmail 2478 invoked by uid 100); 19 Feb 2001 14:29:45 -0000 > From: Mike Meyer > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Message-ID: <14993.11737.186393.364682@guru.mired.org> > Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:29:45 -0600 > To: Eric Jacoboni > Cc: questions@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: About USB scanner and FreeBSD 4.2 > In-Reply-To: <34130550@toto.iv> > X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid > X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% > *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ > Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG > X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Precedence: bulk > > Eric Jacoboni types: > > >>>>> "Mike" =3D=3D Mike Meyer writes: > > Mike> Until you get the uscanner device to show up, it won't work. > > Following your steps, the uscanner device show up : > > # dmesg |grep "^u" > > uscanner0: EPSON Perfection1240, rev 1.00/1.04, addr 2 > >=20 > > But i still don't succeed to make it work...=20 > >=20 > > scanimage --list-devices does'nt say anything. Xsane calls as in my > > previous post claim the device is invalid. I've installed Gimp and > > added Xsane as a plug-ins: no device available. > >=20 > > $ ls -l /dev/*scan* > > lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 14 18 f=E9v 18:06 /dev/scanner -> /dev/u= > scanner0 > > lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 14 18 f=E9v 18:06 /dev/usbscanner -> /de= > v/uscanner0 > > crw-rw-r-- 1 root operator 156, 0 4 f=E9v 2000 /dev/uscanner0 > >=20 > >=20 > > Now, i don't know if my problem is related to FBSD or to Sane... > > Well, FreeBSD is doing what it believes it should - it's attaching the > scanner and providing a device pointer for it. The man page for > uscanne says to see the sane home page > for conbfiguration information. While the problem may not be sane's, > if it's FreeBSD, it's going to require work on the uscanner device > driver to fix. So I'd attack it as if it were sane's problem until > you're convinced otherwise. You might try asking for help on > -multimedia. > > =09 -- > Mike Meyer =09=09=09http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more inform= > ation. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > ------- end of forwarded message ------- -- Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 19 14:37:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp017.mail.yahoo.com (smtp017.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D68D37B4EC for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:37:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from h2.impactidealsolutions.com (HELO support10) (216.98.200.91) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Feb 2001 22:37:56 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:38:35 -0700 X-Priority: 3 From: Peter X-Mailer: Mail Warrior To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Solaris Mailing lists Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit X-Mailer-Version: v3.57 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I recently added sparc Solaris 8 to my collection of unixes, and I was just wondering if anyone knows of any good Solaris mailing lists similar to -questions. [I don't have net access at work, only e-mail so that's why I'm asking here and not checking it out at sun.com or other places.] Thanks. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 19 17: 3:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (user-uinjtfm.biz.mindspring.com [165.121.245.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83D0837B491 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:02:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id f1J3NTl20729 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:23:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:23:29 -0800 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FWD: Disposal fees for unsolicited ads on new computers Message-ID: <20010218192329.K20470@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FYI Greg ----- Forwarded message from Adam W ----- > Delivered-To: grog@lemis.com > Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:37:12 +1030 > To: > Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 13:11:38 -0800 > X-Priority: 3 (Normal) > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 > Importance: Normal > Resent-Message-ID: > Resent-From: linuxsa@linuxsa.org.au > X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/5122 > X-Loop: linuxsa@linuxsa.org.au > Precedence: list > Resent-Sender: linuxsa-request@linuxsa.org.au > > > I thought this would give a smile to some people :} > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Declan McCullagh" > To: > Cc: ; > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 6:45 AM > Subject: FC: Disposal fees for unsolicited ads on new computers, by Steve > Mann > > >> >> ********** >> >> Subject: disposal fees for unsolicited advertising on new computers >> From: Steve Mann >> To: declan@well.com >> Cc: gnu@toad.com >> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 03:52:07 -0500 >> >>> (3) She also sent a "Microsoft Word" document as an attachment. >>> Reading such documents requires proprietary software that the reader >>> must pay Bill Gates for. The reason we have communication standards >>> (like the Internet RFC 822 that defines the format of email messages) >>> is so that one vendor can't lock us in and require us to pay them in >>> order to communicate with others. If Rep. Eshoo isn't a believer in >>> monopoly, she should communicate in public standards rather than >>> proprietary formats. >> >> >> On a related topic, I find it objectionable that my new computers have >> been vandalized with various stickers and unsolicited markings inside >> and out. Perhaps this viewpoint would be of interest to your email list. >> >> Here is a letter I addressed to an email address at the site of one >> of these unsolicited markings on the outside of my new computer, together >> with their well-thought-out reply: >> >> >> From: Steve Mann >> To: notheft@microsoft.com >> Subject: Vandalism of informatic property (unsolocited advertising+virus) >> Cc: mann@eecg.toronto.edu >> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 06:16:29 -0500 >> >> Recently I purchased four new computers, and I requested that they be >> shipped with no operating system, because we develop our own software >> in my lab, and we have a policy against using Closed Source software or >> operating systems. Therefore, we would expect blank hard drives. >> >> However, all four of my new computers appear to have been contaminated >> with informatic detritus of some kind, which appears to include >> an unsolicited advertisement. In particular the word "Windows", >> which appears to be a trademark of your corporation, appears on each >> of my computers when booted. >> >> Presently, we are posting a copy of this waste material to our main WWW >> server to seek advice from the computer science community as a whole, >> on how best to dispose of it, as well as advice on what fee would be >> reasonable for us to charge for its disposal. >> >> We are also seeking advice from the community, and hoping that other >> scientists can analyze these waste products to confirm their origin, >> as well as give us advice on how best to decontaminate our systems, >> and to obtain three independent quotations for having this unwanted >> material verifiably removed from our computers. >> >> Since the hard drives in question are each approximately 40 gigabytes, >> and the best way for us to make this waste matter available to other >> scientists for analysis has been to "dd" the entire hard drive contents >> to our WWW site, this requires considerable space on our main file >> server that supports or WWW server. >> >> Accordingly, we seek a storage fee for this waste matter, until such >> time as we can collect sufficient opinions on how best to dispose of it, >> and to ensure that it has not adversely affected any of our computers, >> as well as how best to ensure that new computers we order in the future >> are not similarly contaminated. >> >> Any advice you can provide on the nature of this waste product would >> be greatly appreciated, especially if it might expedite the analysis >> so that we can free up the 160 gigabytes of space on our WWW server >> that the samples occupy. >> >> The unsolicited message displayed on the screens seem to partly match >> a sticker that was found on the side of each computer reading "Windows >> 2000 Professional 1-2 CPU Certificiate of Authenticity". >> >> It might seem, therefore, that your corporation would be the >> corporation responsible for contamination of my computers with >> this waste product, virus, or unsolicited advertising material. >> >> Please advise if your company can assume blame for this deliberate >> vandalism of my new computer, or if this was an accidental act and >> merely a result of negligence on the part of your company. >> >> I would welcome your comments on what fee you feel might be >> reasonable fee for disposing of this material, and how long we should >> need to keep it publically available on our WWW server for reasonable >> analysis. >> >> I am sending to this email address because this is the address that >> I find from visiting the WWW site that appears on the unsolicited >> stickers attached to the outsides of my new computers. >> >> I will also be scanning the surfaces of my computers and posting copies >> of these stickers to the WWW in order to obtain a quote for having >> them removed from the outsides of my computers and having the housings >> cleaned. >> >> If you can advise on a removal process for these unsolicited >> advertising stickers, or what you feel you might be willing >> to pay as a reasonable fee for their removal, please advise. >> >> >> >> Dr. S. Mann >> 284 Bloor St. W., Suite 701, >> Toronto, Ontario, >> M5S 3B8 >> >>> From notheft@microsoft.com Fri Feb 16 06:18:11 2001 >> Received: from mail3.microsoft.com ([131.107.3.123]:2640 "HELO >> mail3.microsoft.com") by picton.eecg.toronto.edu with SMTP id >> ; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 06:17:54 -0500 >> Received: from 157.54.9.100 by mail3.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail >> VirusWall NT); Fri, 16 Feb 2001 03:16:18 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) >> Received: by inet-imc-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Internet Mail >> Service (5.5.2653.19) >> id ; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 03:17:46 -0800 >> Message-ID: >> > <81EDEEE0355CB24380319632393FD56DD3B23F@red-msg-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.co > m> >> From: Canadian Anti-Piracy Hotline >> To: Steve Mann >> Subject: RE: Vandalism of informatic property (unsolocited advertising+vir >> us) >> X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) >> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 06:17:54 -0500 >> Return-Path: >> X-Orcpt: rfc822;mann@eecg.toronto.edu >> Status: OR >> >> Thank you for contacting the Microsoft Anti-Piracy Team. Microsoft > devotes >> substantial time and energy toward fighting software piracy and we >> appreciate your interest in our initiatives. >> >> If the nature of your email involved a question or a request for > additional >> information on software piracy, a member of our Anti-Piracy Team will >> respond as soon as possible. >> >> If the nature of your email involved the possible unauthorized copying >> and/or distribution of Microsoft software, please be assured we will >> investigate further the matter you reported and will take the appropriate >> action. Due to the sensitive legal nature of these matters, we cannot >> provide updates on the status of our investigations. >> >> You may visit us at http://www.microsoft.com/canada/piracy to review >> additional information on recognizing genuine Microsoft product, > Microsoft's >> licensing policies and current news about Microsoft's anti-piracy >> initiatives. >> >> Further information about anti-piracy can be obtained from the Canadian >> Alliance Against Software Theft at http://www.caast.org >> >> Thank you for supporting the fight against software theft. >> >> Microsoft Corporation >> International Law & Corporate Affairs >> Anti-Piracy Team >> >> > > -- > LinuxSA WWW: http://www.linuxsa.org.au/ IRC: #linuxsa on irc.linux.org.au > To unsubscribe from the LinuxSA list: > mail linuxsa-request@linuxsa.org.au with "unsubscribe" as the subject > ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 19 21: 5:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from camus.cybercable.fr (camus.cybercable.fr [212.198.0.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CB50737B401 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 11783199 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2001 05:05:35 -0000 Received: from d165.dhcp212-231.cybercable.fr (HELO gits.dyndns.org) ([212.198.231.165]) (envelope-sender ) by camus.cybercable.fr (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Feb 2001 05:05:35 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by gits.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f1K55Vo25789; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 06:05:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from clefevre@poboxes.com) To: Peter Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Solaris Mailing lists References: X-Face: V|+c;4!|B?E%BE^{E6);aI.[<97Zd*>^#%Y5Cxv;%Y[PT-LW3;A:fRrJ8+^k"e7@+30g0YD0*^^3jgyShN7o?a]C la*Zv'5NA,=963bM%J^o]C In-Reply-To: Peter's message of "Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:38:35 -0700" From: Cyrille Lefevre Reply-To: clefevre@poboxes.com Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 20 Feb 2001 06:05:25 +0100 Message-ID: <66i6osfe.fsf@gits.dyndns.org> Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Peter writes: > I recently added sparc Solaris 8 to my collection of unixes, and I was just wondering if > anyone knows of any good Solaris mailing lists similar to -questions. [I don't have net > access at work, only e-mail so that's why I'm asking here and not checking it out at > sun.com or other places.] There is at least the Sun Manager's ML : http://www.latech.edu/sunmanfaq.html http://www.latech.edu/sunman-search.html usefull solaris resources : http://www.SolarisCentral.org (specially /rtfm) Cyrille. -- home: mailto:clefevre@poboxes.com UNIX is user-friendly; it's just particular work: mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre@edf.fr about who it chooses to be friends with. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 20 9:46:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D342837B503 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:46:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 58A627567; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:46:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E1641D89 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:46:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:46:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Next Release? Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone on this list have an idea when we might see the next -RELEASE (be it 4.2.x, 4.3, or even maybe 5.0)? Not a huge deal, I'm just curious. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 20 11:31:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C616837B491 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:31:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18628; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:31:26 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010220122851.04ae2cb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:31:18 -0700 To: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Next Release? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) was that the next release would be 4.3-RELEASE, on the 4.x-STABLE branch, in mid-March. (I really could use it sooner, because I want to upgrade some 3.x machines, and we usually wait until a very solid .2 or a .3 before moving production machines over.) --Brett At 10:46 AM 2/20/2001, Jamie Bowden wrote: >Anyone on this list have an idea when we might see the next -RELEASE (be >it 4.2.x, 4.3, or even maybe 5.0)? Not a huge deal, I'm just curious. > >Jamie Bowden > >-- >"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" >Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" >Iain Bowen > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 20 17: 9:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E3B937B401 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:09:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f1L19Fa78104 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:09:16 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200102210109.f1L19Fa78104@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:09:15 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: oh gawd! who's doing this? Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I had recently posted a new URL for one of my websites and went to check to see how much traffic it was generating, so I did this: $ tail -f access.log What I saw was entries like this appearing over and over again (URLs changed to protect the stupid): "GET /adsl/2000_11/0051.html HTTP/1.0" 200 8443 "http://example.org.org/adsl/2000_11/" "htdig/3.1.5 (dan@langille.org)" They were coming through, a different URL request each time, at the rate of about 2 per second. FAWK! Then I recogized the requesting IP address. It was me. I was running htdig over the web server and from the webserver. I was indexing the website.... DOH. [note to self: eat breakfast before checking logs] -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 20 17:43:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 397B237B491 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:43:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: from xor.obsecurity.org ([63.207.60.67]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G8I00FGSBJN85@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.Org; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by xor.obsecurity.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1845466B62; Fri, 09 Feb 2001 12:31:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 12:31:18 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system In-reply-to: <3A8446FA.DCD17C7E@thebarn.com>; from cattelan@thebarn.com on Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 01:37:30PM -0600 Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.Org Message-id: <20010209123118.D64219@mollari.cthul.hu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6WlEvdN9Dv0WHSBl" Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: <200102090856.BAA08304@usr08.primenet.com> <3A8446FA.DCD17C7E@thebarn.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --6WlEvdN9Dv0WHSBl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 01:37:30PM -0600, Russell Cattelan wrote: > The one major requirement is that somebody like Sun or > IBM can't pick up the code and start commercializing it. > And no I'm not saying restricting a commercial product > with XFS, but restricting somebody from making XFS > a commercial product unto itself. Hah, I knew it. SGI *are* using the GPL as a weapon to prevent their competitors from making money from it, and to draw customers away from other FS implementations from their competitors onto Linux. In other words, it's okay for anyone to use the code, as long as they don't benefit from it. I don't have a problem with this attitude per se, but it does blow a neat hole in the side of the PR arguments which have been coming out of SGI since they first started using the strategy about SGI's firm dedication to the Open Source Community, or rather the motivations behind it. Kris --6WlEvdN9Dv0WHSBl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6hFOWWry0BWjoQKURApKOAJ990glFiXwu0F+T0xK3Gxnh5c9KIQCfbVAM pVoycHVTOVJDnnKizNTt/EM= =YOhM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6WlEvdN9Dv0WHSBl-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 20 19:12:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-56-129.knology.net [24.214.56.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F3A537B4EC for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:12:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f1L3CVm06055 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:12:33 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200102210312.f1L3CVm06055@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: mousetrap for port 111? From: David Kelly Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:12:31 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Getting tired of the probes on port 111. Anyone know of a "mousetrap" to fake being Sun RPC, complete with emulation of what the script kiddies are looking for? I wouldn't mind a protected sandbox for them to play in. Protected from everything else. Fake credit card files. Files tagged "SECRET". Etc. Recording everything they did. Something that could be used as evidence for prosecution. Thinking such could be called a "reverse kiddie script", or maybe just "mousetrap". Surfing /usr/ports finds security/fakebo seems to have the right idea. The FBI got a lot of flack for Carnivore, which actively seeked its prey out of the herd. Maybe we talk them into Herbivore, which would wait for the hunter to come to it? If it wasn't for the pre-existing Carnivore name they could call this one "venus flytrap." -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 20 19:28:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C224237B4EC; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:28:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id VAA115565693 Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:23:58 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA19229; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:27:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:27:55 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Terry Lambert Cc: Russell Cattelan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jack Rusher , Sam Leffler , Zhiui Zhang , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system Message-ID: <20010220192755.B19188@darkstar.gte.net> References: <3A8396B9.CA8C09E4@thebarn.com> <200102090856.BAA08304@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <200102090856.BAA08304@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 08:56:29AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry, Did you hear anything positive from SGI about the possibility of porting XFS? [RC] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 20 20: 4:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D333937B401; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:04:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA16760; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:01:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAAMa4MG; Tue Feb 20 21:01:15 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA06482; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:04:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102210404.VAA06482@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system To: res03db2@gte.net (Robert Clark) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 04:04:06 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), cattelan@thebarn.com (Russell Cattelan), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jar@integratus.com (Jack Rusher), sam@errno.com (Sam Leffler), zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu (Zhiui Zhang), freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010220192755.B19188@darkstar.gte.net> from "Robert Clark" at Feb 20, 2001 07:27:55 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Terry, > Did you hear anything positive from SGI > about the possibility of porting XFS? > [RC] The last thing I heard was a second hand offer to consider releasing under a different license, with the requirement that someone couldn't make the thing into a product on its own. I don't really have parameters beyond that. It appears to me that the LGPL would be unacceptable, from that standpoint. If they are willing to have it be part of a larger product (my thinking here is that they want indemnification, which comes easily that way), then there are some obvious ways to write the license. IBM Alphaworks, and Sun's SLPv1 license has a similar restriction on "this can't be a product, without additional work". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 20 20:18: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-165-226-53.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.165.226.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E085F37B491 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:17:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 295BC66F2E; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:17:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:17:57 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system Message-ID: <20010220201757.A43617@mollari.cthul.hu> References: <200102090856.BAA08304@usr08.primenet.com> <3A8446FA.DCD17C7E@thebarn.com> <20010209123118.D64219@mollari.cthul.hu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010209123118.D64219@mollari.cthul.hu>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 12:31:18PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 397B237B491 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:43:40 -0800 (PST envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) ^^^^^^^^^^^ Received: from xor.obsecurity.org ([63.207.60.67]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G8I00FGSBJN85@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.Org; Fri, 09 Feb 2001 12:28:38 -0800 (PST) ^^^^^^^^^^^ *sigh* 11 days to deliver an email. How very efficient, PacBell. Kris --C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6k0F0Wry0BWjoQKURAiGOAKDO8MZVZKyhCi3qWuG/5esH15OjdwCggXLi ELFGNo+Sl9eELxqA7Vp3vgQ= =ao+O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 20 20:59:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D667C37B4EC for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:59:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from europax@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010221045937.PBUV13478.femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com>; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:59:37 -0800 Message-ID: <3A934B3A.33E70781@home.com> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:59:38 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mousetrap for port 111? References: <200102210312.f1L3CVm06055@grumpy.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sounds like fun! My notebook is only connected for a couple of hours per night but ipflog is full of port 111 stuff. (and also the LPRng port scans) Rob. David Kelly wrote: > > Getting tired of the probes on port 111. Anyone know of a "mousetrap" to > fake being Sun RPC, complete with emulation of what the script kiddies > are looking for? > > I wouldn't mind a protected sandbox for them to play in. Protected from > everything else. Fake credit card files. Files tagged "SECRET". Etc. > Recording everything they did. Something that could be used as evidence > for prosecution. Thinking such could be called a "reverse kiddie > script", or maybe just "mousetrap". > > Surfing /usr/ports finds security/fakebo seems to have the right idea. > > The FBI got a lot of flack for Carnivore, which actively seeked its prey > out of the herd. Maybe we talk them into Herbivore, which would wait for > the hunter to come to it? If it wasn't for the pre-existing Carnivore > name they could call this one "venus flytrap." > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 20 21:34:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC7137B6FA for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:34:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA25325; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:34:31 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010220223130.048203e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:34:27 -0700 To: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: mousetrap for port 111? In-Reply-To: <200102210312.f1L3CVm06055@grumpy.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:12 PM 2/20/2001, David Kelly wrote: >Getting tired of the probes on port 111. Anyone know of a "mousetrap" to >fake being Sun RPC, complete with emulation of what the script kiddies >are looking for? You mean a honeypot? --Brett "Suppose," [Pooh] said to Piglet, "you wanted to catch me, how would you do it?" "Well," said Piglet, "I should do it like this. I should make a Trap, and I should put a Jar of Honey in the Trap, and you would smell it, and you would go in after it, and -- " "And I would go in after it," said Pooh excitedly, "only very carefully so as not to hurt myself, and I would get to the Jar of Honey, and I should lick round the edges first of all, pretending that there wasn't any more, you know, and then I should walk away and think about it a little, and then I should come back and start licking in the middle of the jar, and then -- " --A. A. Milne To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 20 22:22: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lupo.thebarn.com (nic-31-c12-219.mn.mediaone.net [24.31.12.219]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EDCA37B4EC; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:22:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cattelan@thebarn.com) Received: from thebarn.com (phuck-wi0.thebarn.com [10.0.0.130]) by lupo.thebarn.com (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f1L6Lof04033; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:21:50 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cattelan@thebarn.com) Message-ID: <3A936CFC.DE5F3775@thebarn.com> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:23:41 -0600 From: Russell Cattelan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Robert Clark , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jack Rusher , Sam Leffler , Zhiui Zhang , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system References: <200102210404.VAA06482@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry nothing new to report. I've been looking over other open source licenses in the hope of finding examples to start drafting a workable license for XFS on BSD. Sorry folks this is going to be a slow process. Terry Lambert wrote: > > Terry, > > Did you hear anything positive from SGI > > about the possibility of porting XFS? > > [RC] > > The last thing I heard was a second hand offer to consider > releasing under a different license, with the requirement > that someone couldn't make the thing into a product on its > own. > > I don't really have parameters beyond that. It appears to > me that the LGPL would be unacceptable, from that standpoint. > > If they are willing to have it be part of a larger product > (my thinking here is that they want indemnification, which > comes easily that way), then there are some obvious ways to > write the license. IBM Alphaworks, and Sun's SLPv1 license > has a similar restriction on "this can't be a product, without > additional work". > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 21 3:18: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from katrien.skystream.nl (katrien.skystream.nl [195.7.130.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66FF237B401 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 03:17:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abgoeree@uwnet.nl) Received: from dyn.dailup.c227129023.isd.to (dyn.dailup.c227129023.isd.to [213.227.129.23]) by katrien.skystream.nl (8.11.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f1LBFGb07173 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:15:16 +0100 Received: (qmail 1093 invoked by uid 1000); 21 Feb 2001 10:11:49 -0000 From: "Andre Goeree" Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:11:49 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT: ["abgoeree@uwnet.nl"@shell.i-sphere.com: REJECTED MAIL]???????? Message-ID: <20010221111149.D929@mandark.attica.home> Reply-To: abgoeree@uwnet.nl References: <20010220230057.A57762@mandark.attica.home> <14994.61220.340488.445773@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <14994.61220.340488.445773@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 04:26:44PM -0600 X-Sender: abgoeree@uwnet.nl Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 20, 2001 at 04:26:44PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > [Replies pointed to -chat] > > Andre Goeree types: > > Could someone please tell me how on earth this > > ended up in my mailbox? The message was sent > > *only* to stable@freebsd.org (and received) > > with no CC BC or whatever. Is this someones > > spam filter going berserk? > > No, it's someones spam filter acting on your message. That it found > something that wasn't spam is a minor problem. It would have been nice > if the message had said *which* IP address was "illegally formed", as > they all look fine to me. > Yes, to me too:) It could just be someone who setup a poor spam filter. On the other hand it could mean trouble with my ISP's DNS servers (i already notified them). I've had something similar some time ago when they where expanding their address space and forgot to register some address pool with the DNS servers. > Rather than install a filter, get a good automated complaint system, > and add a "complain" button to your mailer. If you do it often enough, > you'll get your address on the "complains about spam" blacklist, which > will start killill the spam at the source. That's a lot better than > killing it after it's gotten to your system. > Is there a "complaints about SPAM" blacklist? I didn't know that. Sounds like a list i want to get on:) Would mail/adcomplain do the trick? Hmm, sometimes i get spammed via mailing lists. I can only guess that the spammers don't have my direct mail address, but reacting to these messages would give them the address for sure... > I always wonder what would happen if some popular mailer turned up > with a "Complain about SPAM" button. I suspect it would be more > effective at getting rid of SPAM than all the filters and blocks put > together. > > ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:29:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14VgpI-000CVY-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:29:32 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f1LLTVt11995 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:29:31 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:29:31 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Netscape story Message-ID: <20010221212930.A11954@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, I hate to dredge this up, but is there anywhere I can find a succinct version of what killed the open source Netscape development model? I know they went OS to stay alive after losing to IE, but all I ever hear people say is 'not like the Mozilla development model' and 'after Netscape became a mess' and remarks like this. What went wrong? Jonathon -- "One World, One Web, One Program." - Microsoft Promotional Ad. "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer." - Adolf Hitler To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 21 13:40:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCED37B401 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:40:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04225; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:39:19 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010221143600.04f11d20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:39:13 -0700 To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape story In-Reply-To: <20010221212930.A11954@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bad morale. The fact that AOL -- a big blob of a company which most serious hackers despise -- had rights to the code that others didn't, and produced awful, fat, ultra-commercialized products with it that invaded users' privacy. The developers felt as if they were working for AOL (shudder). --Brett At 02:29 PM 2/21/2001, j mckitrick wrote: >Hi all, > >I hate to dredge this up, but is there anywhere I can find a succinct >version of what killed the open source Netscape development model? I know >they went OS to stay alive after losing to IE, but all I ever hear people >say is 'not like the Mozilla development model' and 'after Netscape became >a mess' and remarks like this. > >What went wrong? > >Jonathon >-- >"One World, One Web, One Program." - Microsoft Promotional Ad. >"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer." - Adolf Hitler > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 21 13:46: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-165-226-53.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.165.226.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB5037B401 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:46:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3830366F32; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:46:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:46:03 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape story Message-ID: <20010221134603.A60597@mollari.cthul.hu> References: <20010221212930.A11954@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010221143600.04f11d20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010221143600.04f11d20@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 02:39:13PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 02:39:13PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Bad morale. The fact that AOL -- a big blob of a company which most=20 > serious hackers despise -- had rights to the code that others didn't,=20 > and produced awful, fat, ultra-commercialized products with it that=20 > invaded users' privacy. The developers felt as if they were working > for AOL (shudder). Well, this sounds like a plausible story, but do you have any references to back this up? Kris --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6lDcaWry0BWjoQKURAnOSAKCnfSlb175OyAWwx1X8EWrCCOJMfgCg4DoZ WxCa7Xyk4pzSGvp54D2NNvE= =edXr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 21 14:46:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BDE1837B401 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:46:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 10337 invoked by uid 100); 21 Feb 2001 22:46:44 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14996.17748.832610.157775@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:46:44 -0600 To: abgoeree@uwnet.nl Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT: ["abgoeree@uwnet.nl"@shell.i-sphere.com: REJECTED MAIL]???????? In-Reply-To: <20010221111149.D929@mandark.attica.home> References: <20010220230057.A57762@mandark.attica.home> <14994.61220.340488.445773@guru.mired.org> <20010221111149.D929@mandark.attica.home> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andre Goeree types: > > Rather than install a filter, get a good automated complaint system, > > and add a "complain" button to your mailer. If you do it often enough, > > you'll get your address on the "complains about spam" blacklist, which > > will start killill the spam at the source. That's a lot better than > > killing it after it's gotten to your system. > Is there a "complaints about SPAM" blacklist? I didn't know that. > Sounds like a list i want to get on:) > Would mail/adcomplain do the trick? Well, some of the SPAM packages/sites (those that help produce it, not those that help fight it) have lists of email addresses that are known to generate complaints if you spam them. > Hmm, sometimes i get spammed via mailing lists. I can only > guess that the spammers don't have my direct mail address, > but reacting to these messages would give them the address for sure... Well, they may have it and some filter is getting it. On the other hand, I sometimes see the same spam multiple times - to both one of my mail addresses and to one or more of the lists I subscribe to. > > I always wonder what would happen if some popular mailer turned up > > with a "Complain about SPAM" button. I suspect it would be more > > effective at getting rid of SPAM than all the filters and blocks put > > together. > That sure sounds like a good default feature:) Yeah, but considering how active MS is about fixing - or even advising people - about what a security hole ActiveX and JavaScript are, I wouldn't expect it to happen. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 21 16:45:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA5337B401 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:45:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06209; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:43:31 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010221173958.04a8b510@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:43:22 -0700 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape story Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010221134603.A60597@mollari.cthul.hu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010221143600.04f11d20@localhost> <20010221212930.A11954@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010221143600.04f11d20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:46 PM 2/21/2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: >Well, this sounds like a plausible story, but do you have any >references to back this up? > >Kris Most of what I've heard has been by word of mouth, but after a Web search I've found a document on the Mozilla site that voiced concerns about these issues as far back as 1999. See http://www.mozilla.org/mozilla-at-one.html --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 21 17:58:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zihua.swbell.net (adsl-64-123-14-16.dsl.austtx.swbell.net [64.123.14.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 485BB37B401 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:58:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmclist@swbell.net) Received: (from cmconn@localhost) by zihua.swbell.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f1M1uW600448; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:56:32 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cmclist@swbell.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zihua.swbell.net: cmconn set sender to cmclist@swbell.net using -f From: Christopher Mark Conn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14996.29135.432419.768658@zihua.swbell.net> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:56:31 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: daemonnews magazine X-Mailer: VM 6.77 under Emacs 20.7.2 Reply-To: cmclist@swbell.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Has the first delivered issue come out yet? I subbed through the web site but haven't received a copy in the mail yet. Is there any way I can confirm that my sub went through? Chris Conn cmclist@swbell.net Leander, TX To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 21 18:50:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bizville.com (bizville.com [161.58.227.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78A2637B65D for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:50:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seiterva@bizville.com) Received: (seiterva@localhost) by bizville.com (8.8.8) id TAA04929; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:50:55 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:50:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200102220250.TAA04929@bizville.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Îáðàùàþñü ê Âàì ñ ïðîñüáîé ïîìî÷ü ìíå â ïðèîáðåòåíèè ëåêàðñòâà From: lepeshkinan@aport2000.ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary = b366702337f75fb9d192839769edac11a Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a MIME encoded message. --b366702337f75fb9d192839769edac11a Content-Type: text/html ; 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Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:03:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 60F46239AAB; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:03:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:03:49 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Christopher Mark Conn Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, sales@daemonnews.org Subject: Re: daemonnews magazine Message-ID: <20010221190349.S656@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <14996.29135.432419.768658@zihua.swbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <14996.29135.432419.768658@zihua.swbell.net>; from cmclist@swbell.net on Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 07:56:31PM -0600 Organization: daemonnews Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-02-21 19:56 -0600, Christopher Mark Conn wrote: > Has the first delivered issue come out yet? > I subbed through the web site but haven't > received a copy in the mail yet. Is there > any way I can confirm that my sub went through? We had some problems with the mailing for the first subscription issue. If you subscribed in time for the first delivered issue (#2), and haven't recieved it yet, please email and we'll make sure you get another mailed to you. It would help greatly if you could include your order number and contact information, or better yet, just attach your original order form. Thanks; we'll have future issues mailed in a more reliable manner. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Fnord. mailto:gsutter@daemonnews.org http://www.daemonnews.org/ hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 21 19: 4:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-56-129.knology.net [24.214.56.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFDFB37B4EC for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:04:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f1M34Cm25147; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:04:17 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200102220304.f1M34Cm25147@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mousetrap for port 111? In-Reply-To: Message from Brett Glass of "Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:34:27 MST." <4.3.2.7.2.20010220223130.048203e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:04:12 -0600 From: David Kelly Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > At 08:12 PM 2/20/2001, David Kelly wrote: > > >Getting tired of the probes on port 111. Anyone know of a "mousetrap" to > >fake being Sun RPC, complete with emulation of what the script kiddies > >are looking for? > > You mean a honeypot? Similar but not quite. A honeypot is lure. I'd like to cause as much trouble as possible for those who go thru the neighborhood twisting doorknobs to see what doors they can get thru. I'd like to cause trouble for those who are out looking for trouble. An IP address is all they need for a lure. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 21 22: 6:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BFB737B491 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:06:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA22969; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:01:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAc8aq0S; Wed Feb 21 23:01:02 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA07799; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:06:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102220606.XAA07799@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Netscape story To: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:06:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010221212930.A11954@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> from "j mckitrick" at Feb 21, 2001 09:29:31 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I hate to dredge this up, but is there anywhere I can find a succinct > version of what killed the open source Netscape development model? I know > they went OS to stay alive after losing to IE, but all I ever hear people > say is 'not like the Mozilla development model' and 'after Netscape became > a mess' and remarks like this. Mozilla is still around, so it wasn't killed. > What went wrong? It wasn't working code. People complain and blame a lot of things on the model, but it's not what's at fault. The number one issue that resulted in the projects lack of momentum, I think, is that Netscape released partial code, instead of releasing something that worked on at least one platform after you typed "make"; platform rivalry would have taken care of the porting, if it could have been demonstrated on a single platform common to a large enough group of software developers. I'll give a success example. From my own experience, the University of Michigan LDAP code languished for a long time. It would not build and run on Linux, BSD, or Windows, so there was no large developer base. Most of the commercial LDAP servers, including Netscape's, were derived from this code, until relatively recently (IBM and Novell have their own implementations on top of their own non-LDAP directory servers, now). Critical Angle collected many of the patches posted to Usenet or put up for FTP over the years, but kept them seperate. I don't think that this was an intentional attempt to favor their own product, it was just how they were organized. As part of some research I was tasked with at Whistle, I took the Critical Angle patches, and all the other patches I could find, and manually applied them one by one and hand resolved all conflicts between them, which happened frequently when they touched the same section of code. I then went through and added some of my own patches, which fixed aggregious portability errors in the code, and made in run with both standard and Draft 4 compliant pthreads. The process was similar to the patchkit process I created for 386BSD, without the attempt to keep the patches seperate, or build shell scripts to create a poor man's source control system to deal with them, and knowing that someone else had already done the job of making it work on at least a large subset of PCs. The original UMICH code pretty much had a lot of unacceptable bugs, even on its reference platform, which required patches to keep it from spinning and eating all the CPU time. Some patches to FreeBSD's pthreads to bring it into full compliance with Draft 4 came out of all this, most of them partly or wholly written by Jeremy Allison. When all was done, I had something that would run on many more platforms (SGI and OSF were Draft 4 pthreads implementations, for example, and any BSD derived system would have failed over the use of the incorrect maximum number of descriptors argument to select). It totalled ~120k of patches. Kurt Zelinga later started the OpenLDAP project; if you look at their CVS tree, which is online at their site, you'll see that almost the very first thing they did after importing the UMICH code was to import "the FreeBSD LDAP patches". I was encouraging of the project, but I didn't want to get involved at a "project founder" level. I thought that LDAPv3 was going to be the nail in the coffin, and Whistle wasn't going to pay me to work on the code. Without a commercially funded contributor, I thought the complexity of the v3 protocol was going to drive implementation out of the realm of possibility for an Open Source project. Happily, Kurt has found a model which works; while it doesn't get a huge number of people hacking on the code, it is capable of much more complex tasks than the FreeBSD or Linux model. I like it when I'm proven wrong for having too low a level of expectations; it happens rarely. I posit that the OpenLDAP project would not have happened without working code, just as a bootable BSD based OS would not have happened without Bill Jolitz's release of 386BSD. Here's the dirty secret or bottom line: Most Open Source projects are run by tinkers. It's an important point. Most people involved in these projects would, had computers never been invented, be working on souping up their cars (or boats), drag racing the things they've built, and in general, tinkering. Some of these tinkers turn out to be race car mechanics; most of them don't. Some projects build the best race cars, with a small team of race car mechanics. Most end up with a lot of shade tree mechanics, and will, like as not, chase off race car mechanics as threatening to turn their hobby into work. So to start an Open Source project requires some thought, and it requires a license that's not aggregious, and is at least commercial utilization (not use) neutral, and it requires a central point for the community to communicate and grow up around (technically: a Schelling point). It requires that it have a structure that can handle the level of complexity of the problem it's attempting to address, or it requires the ability to get a commercial organization to pay a trained mechanic to do something which is beyond the ability of even a gifted tinker. You can even design the society that you'll end up with, once the strong initial contributors are no longer there, so that the project won't crap out when they're gone. Frankly, these are easy. The one thing it absolutely cannot do without, though, is working code with which to tinker. Mozilla is lucky in one sense that Netscape was willing to keep it on life support by commiting developement resources to it until the donor organs finally showed up. It's unlucky in that many, many people got to see what was, to all appearances, a corpse, for a very long time. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 21 23:51:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85E3037B4EC for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:51:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fanf@dotat.at) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #3) id 14VqXD-00031k-00; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:51:31 +0000 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:51:31 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape story Message-ID: <20010222075131.A9337@hand.dotat.at> References: <20010221212930.A11954@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200102220606.XAA07799@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200102220606.XAA07799@usr05.primenet.com> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > >So to start an Open Source project requires some thought, and >it requires a license that's not aggregious, and is at least "egregious" >commercial utilization (not use) neutral, and it requires a >central point for the community to communicate and grow up >around (technically: a Schelling point). Actually that's a misuse of the term. Schelling was talking about zero-sum games in which communication between the players is either impossible or unproductive. In this situation a player acheives the best outcome by aiming for the "Schelling point" which is a negotiating position that all the players can agree on. In some games this implies that there is lots of mindshare associated with that position; for example when choosing a programming language in which to implement a system, Java might be the Schelling point because management have heard of it and HR see a lot of CVs that mention it. However it isn't right to refer to something with a lot of mindshare as a Schelling point when there isn't the background implication of some kind of negotiation over which option to choose. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at HUMBER: NORTHWESTERLY 4 OR 5, INCREASING 6 IN EAST LATER. OCCASIONAL RAIN OR SHOWERS. MODERATE OR GOOD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 22 1:25:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C680437B401 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 01:25:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA05428; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:22:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAyZaOKk; Thu Feb 22 02:22:33 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA10847; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:25:36 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102220925.CAA10847@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Netscape story To: dot@dotat.at (Tony Finch) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:25:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010222075131.A9337@hand.dotat.at> from "Tony Finch" at Feb 22, 2001 07:51:31 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >So to start an Open Source project requires some thought, and > >it requires a license that's not aggregious, and is at least > > "egregious" Well, there went my egregious spelling error coupon. 8-). > >commercial utilization (not use) neutral, and it requires a > >central point for the community to communicate and grow up > >around (technically: a Schelling point). > > Actually that's a misuse of the term. Schelling was talking about > zero-sum games in which communication between the players is either > impossible or unproductive. In this situation a player acheives the > best outcome by aiming for the "Schelling point" which is a > negotiating position that all the players can agree on. In some games > this implies that there is lots of mindshare associated with that > position; for example when choosing a programming language in which to > implement a system, Java might be the Schelling point because > management have heard of it and HR see a lot of CVs that mention it. > However it isn't right to refer to something with a lot of mindshare > as a Schelling point when there isn't the background implication of > some kind of negotiation over which option to choose. I was trying to use it to describe the mutually arrived at community, which I meant in terms of a communications forum, not the mindshare that competing ideas in that forum can grab. In the technical sense, I was saying that you can't pick your developers, communicate only to them, and have only them show up at the party. Project participation is self selecting. When I think of Schelling points first, then the examples that come to mind first is the "README" file; there was no convention in which communication between companies and customers both decided that the file with important last minute things in it would be named "README"; it just sort of emerged. Hope that clears up what I meant... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 22 1:40:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233E837B67D for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 01:40:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fanf@dotat.at) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #3) id 14VsEp-0003IR-00; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:40:39 +0000 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:40:39 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape story Message-ID: <20010222094039.B9337@hand.dotat.at> References: <20010222075131.A9337@hand.dotat.at> <200102220925.CAA10847@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200102220925.CAA10847@usr05.primenet.com> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > >I was trying to use it to describe the mutually arrived at >community, which I meant in terms of a communications forum, >not the mindshare that competing ideas in that forum can grab. Yes, that was clear, and I've seen it used in that way elsewhere. >When I think of Schelling points first, then the examples that >come to mind first is the "README" file; there was no convention >in which communication between companies and customers both >decided that the file with important last minute things in it >would be named "README"; it just sort of emerged. Yes, that's a nice example :-) Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at ROCKALL MALIN: NORTHWESTERLY 4 OR 5, OCCASIONALLY 6 OR 7 IN NORTH LATER. RAIN THEN SHOWERS. MODERATE BECOMING GOOD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 22 2:29: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from daffy.uwnet.nl (ns.isd-holland.nl [195.7.130.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554CE37B401 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:28:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abgoeree@uwnet.nl) Received: from dyn.dailup.c227129183.isd.to (dyn.dailup.c227129183.isd.to [213.227.129.183]) by daffy.uwnet.nl (8.11.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f1MASpT31330 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:28:51 +0100 Received: (qmail 58625 invoked by uid 1000); 22 Feb 2001 09:41:04 -0000 From: "Andre Goeree" Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:41:04 +0100 To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM was: (OT: [REJECTED MAIL]????????) Message-ID: <20010222104104.A36094@mandark.attica.home> Reply-To: abgoeree@uwnet.nl References: <20010220230057.A57762@mandark.attica.home> <14994.61220.340488.445773@guru.mired.org> <20010221111149.D929@mandark.attica.home> <14996.17748.832610.157775@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <14996.17748.832610.157775@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 04:46:44PM -0600 X-Sender: abgoeree@uwnet.nl Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 04:46:44PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > Andre Goeree types: > > > Rather than install a filter, get a good automated complaint system, > > > and add a "complain" button to your mailer. If you do it often enough, > > > you'll get your address on the "complains about spam" blacklist, which > > > will start killill the spam at the source. That's a lot better than > > > killing it after it's gotten to your system. > > Is there a "complaints about SPAM" blacklist? I didn't know that. > > Sounds like a list i want to get on:) > > Would mail/adcomplain do the trick? > > Well, some of the SPAM packages/sites (those that help produce it, not > those that help fight it) have lists of email addresses that are known > to generate complaints if you spam them. Sounds good to me, but it's actually the world up side down ;-) There should be a list where you have to be on if you want to receive SPAM, not if you don't want it... I already see SPAM messages like "if you don't want receive this JUNK register your address at ...." I believe this is yet another trick to get the real address :-( First my snailmail, next my phone, now my email, what's going to be spammed next? > > > Hmm, sometimes i get spammed via mailing lists. I can only > > guess that the spammers don't have my direct mail address, > > but reacting to these messages would give them the address for sure... > > Well, they may have it and some filter is getting it. On the other > hand, I sometimes see the same spam multiple times - to both one of my > mail addresses and to one or more of the lists I subscribe to. > Yes, and a lot of mailing lists are "public" what AFAIK means that anybody can get a list of who's on it. Here where i live (the netherlands) i even heard of people getting PAID for each valid email address they report, can you believe that? > > > I always wonder what would happen if some popular mailer turned up > > > with a "Complain about SPAM" button. I suspect it would be more > > > effective at getting rid of SPAM than all the filters and blocks put > > > together. > > That sure sounds like a good default feature:) > > Yeah, but considering how active MS is about fixing - or even advising > people - about what a security hole ActiveX and JavaScript are, I > wouldn't expect it to happen. > Now, who wants to talk about M$? (just kidding). No, i don't think they really care about their customers, i think they're only interested in buck$ and how to get the most of them in the shortest possible time... But, as we all (except the die-hard Windozers) know: There is a much better OS and it's *free*, updated daily, always has the latest security/bug-fixes, very good technical support, runs rock solid, runs faster with every update (or am i fooling myself?) and above all: it has the power to serve :-) Oh, and i forgot, it's even *fun* to talk about :-) Notice i changed the subject, it sounds a bit more appropriate;-) (and i believe everybody already has my address now so there's no need to mention it in the subject anymore ;-) -- Andre. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 22 4:59:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D04D237B401 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 04:59:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14VvLO-0007nq-00; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:59:38 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f1MCxYD19702; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:59:34 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:59:34 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape story Message-ID: <20010222125933.C19546@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010221212930.A11954@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200102220606.XAA07799@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200102220606.XAA07799@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 06:06:35AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ah, thanks for that fascinating insight, Terry. After the letter on jwz and your comments, it explains a lot. Netscape never released the source code to a working project, and yet continued to derive products from the supposedly obsolete browser code. Makes sense now why it was so difficult. The tinkerers could not tinker with a working project, so most lost interest when they could never see the results of their work. However, while Mozilla itself still seems to have survived, apparently the development model made it very easy for the system to become bloated. And apparently the XML parsing (I may have misunderstood this) can easily bog down slower systems. Within minutes of browsing with N6, my laptop fan kicks on and stays on. Maybe Mozilla is different from N6, I don't know. Jonathon -- "One World, One Web, One Program." - Microsoft Promotional Ad. "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer." - Adolf Hitler To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 22 5: 7:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from katrien.skystream.nl (katrien.skystream.nl [195.7.130.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F002337B503 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 05:07:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abgoeree@uwnet.nl) Received: from dyn.dailup.c227129219.isd.to (dyn.dailup.c227129219.isd.to [213.227.129.219]) by katrien.skystream.nl (8.11.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f1MD4kb04255 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:04:46 +0100 Received: (qmail 14377 invoked by uid 1000); 22 Feb 2001 13:06:05 -0000 From: "Andre Goeree" Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:06:05 +0100 To: Alan Clegg Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM was: (OT: [REJECTED MAIL]????????) Message-ID: <20010222140605.A14353@mandark.attica.home> Reply-To: abgoeree@uwnet.nl References: <20010220230057.A57762@mandark.attica.home> <14994.61220.340488.445773@guru.mired.org> <20010221111149.D929@mandark.attica.home> <14996.17748.832610.157775@guru.mired.org> <20010222104104.A36094@mandark.attica.home> <20010222072512.C30602@diskfarm.firehouse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010222072512.C30602@diskfarm.firehouse.net>; from abc@bsdi.com on Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 07:25:12AM -0500 X-Sender: abgoeree@uwnet.nl Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 07:25:12AM -0500, Alan Clegg wrote: > Unless the network is lying to me again, Andre Goeree said: > > > First my snailmail, next my phone, now my email, what's going to > > be spammed next? > > Do you have a pager or an SMS phone? I do, and I'm fearful. > > AlanC > Oh yeah, i forgot about that, they already found out i have SMS on my mobile phone, and what do you know, it gets spammed! *Very* annoying because this stupid phone rings every time it gets a message and i don't know how to switch it off :-( -- Andre. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 22 6:20:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0E5737B503 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:20:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA44533; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:20:30 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: abgoeree@uwnet.nl Cc: Alan Clegg , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SPAM was: (OT: [REJECTED MAIL]????????) References: <20010220230057.A57762@mandark.attica.home> <14994.61220.340488.445773@guru.mired.org> <20010221111149.D929@mandark.attica.home> <14996.17748.832610.157775@guru.mired.org> <20010222104104.A36094@mandark.attica.home> <20010222072512.C30602@diskfarm.firehouse.net> <20010222140605.A14353@mandark.attica.home> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 Feb 2001 15:20:30 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Andre Goeree"'s message of "Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:06:05 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Andre Goeree" writes: > Oh yeah, i forgot about that, they already found out i have > SMS on my mobile phone, and what do you know, it gets spammed! > *Very* annoying because this stupid phone rings every time > it gets a message and i don't know how to switch it off :-( Weird. Here in .no there has been a lot of press about kids getting spam for porn hotlines and web sites sent to their cell phones, but I've never gotten a singe piece of SMS spam in all the years I've had an SMS-capable GSM phone. Neither have I ever heard a first-hand report of SMS spam - I'm beginning to think it's a myth... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 22 8:25: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail3.berknet.net (cafe.berknet.net [213.74.34.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 12FFC37B491 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:24:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from guvenl@berknet.net) Received: (qmail 1035 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2001 16:26:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO freebsd) (212.253.211.83) by cafe.berknet.net with SMTP; 22 Feb 2001 16:26:48 -0000 Message-ID: <06a401c09cec$59eb9480$53d3fdd4@freebsd> From: "M. Guven Mucuk" To: "Greg Lehey" , "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , References: <20010209095838.E11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3A81DDC9.EF6D7D84@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20010207223155.009d42a0@mail85.pair.com> <20010208110159.E2429@lpt.ens.fr> <20010209095838.E11145@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010209114704.A62359@lpt.ens.fr> <3.0.6.32.20010209085026.009e28e0@mail85.pair.com> <20010210101652.Q16260@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010211134836.C75244@wantadilla.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Gender in non-Indo-European languages (was: Gender in Indo-European languages) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:24:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > North-East Asia. In Chinese, a question is indicated by a -ma at the > end of the sentence, and in Malay it's indicated by -ka. Both of > these languages also have no gender, though there are some different > words for males and females of recognizable species. I wonder how it > works in Hungarian and Turkish. Hello! Yes, Turkish is another language without genders and we add a "-mi" to ask a question too, like chinese. P.S.: Please don't ask "why do I reply 11 days later", i'm just lagging a little :) (Real reason(s): In the last 2 weeks, i've changed my PC@home 2 times, and after that i've moved to another city in this short time period. I *just* could find some time to skim through mails under lists/ folder. -mgm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 22 12:41: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4C0FD37B401 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:41:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 42034 invoked by uid 100); 22 Feb 2001 20:41:02 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14997.31070.299908.592001@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:41:02 -0600 To: abgoeree@uwnet.nl Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM was: (OT: [REJECTED MAIL]????????) In-Reply-To: <20010222104104.A36094@mandark.attica.home> References: <20010220230057.A57762@mandark.attica.home> <14994.61220.340488.445773@guru.mired.org> <20010221111149.D929@mandark.attica.home> <14996.17748.832610.157775@guru.mired.org> <20010222104104.A36094@mandark.attica.home> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andre Goeree types: > On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 04:46:44PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > > Andre Goeree types: > > > > Rather than install a filter, get a good automated complaint system, > > > > and add a "complain" button to your mailer. If you do it often enough, > > > > you'll get your address on the "complains about spam" blacklist, which > > > > will start killill the spam at the source. That's a lot better than > > > > killing it after it's gotten to your system. > > > Is there a "complaints about SPAM" blacklist? I didn't know that. > > > Sounds like a list i want to get on:) > > > Would mail/adcomplain do the trick? > > Well, some of the SPAM packages/sites (those that help produce it, not > > those that help fight it) have lists of email addresses that are known > > to generate complaints if you spam them. > Sounds good to me, but it's actually the world up side down ;-) > There should be a list where you have to be on if you want to > receive SPAM, not if you don't want it... > I already see SPAM messages like "if you don't want receive this > JUNK register your address at ...." I believe this is yet another > trick to get the real address :-( > First my snailmail, next my phone, now my email, what's going to > be spammed next? I'd agree that it's upside down, but it's also the way spam works on all those other media. You have to ask to have your address taken off their phone list or junk mail list. Of course, just asking to be removed isn't enough for SPAM (and has been shown to get you put on spam lists in some cases); you have to complain in such a way that the spammer gets interfered with. > > > Hmm, sometimes i get spammed via mailing lists. I can only > > > guess that the spammers don't have my direct mail address, > > > but reacting to these messages would give them the address for sure... > > Well, they may have it and some filter is getting it. On the other > > hand, I sometimes see the same spam multiple times - to both one of my > > mail addresses and to one or more of the lists I subscribe to. > Yes, and a lot of mailing lists are "public" what AFAIK means > that anybody can get a list of who's on it. Here where i live > (the netherlands) i even heard of people getting PAID for each > valid email address they report, can you believe that? Given that ads for spam software report "XXX Million addresses for $YY", yeah, I believe it. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 22 14:29:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4315337B401 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:29:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 45104 invoked by uid 100); 22 Feb 2001 22:29:25 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14997.37573.925224.981148@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:29:25 -0600 To: Terry Lambert Cc: abgoeree@uwnet.nl, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SPAM was: (OT: [REJECTED MAIL]????????) In-Reply-To: <200102222206.PAA26443@usr05.primenet.com> References: <14997.31070.299908.592001@guru.mired.org> <200102222206.PAA26443@usr05.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > > I'd agree that it's upside down, but it's also the way spam works on > > all those other media. You have to ask to have your address taken off > > their phone list or junk mail list. Of course, just asking to be > > removed isn't enough for SPAM (and has been shown to get you put on > > spam lists in some cases); you have to complain in such a way that > > the spammer gets interfered with. > I have a list of 6 that I like to do: All good tactics. > 1) ALWAYS call the 1-800 number; be very polite. The more > polite you are, the longer they will talk with you, and > the higher their WATS line costs will be. Let them know > that they have made a grave business error, and suggest > that whoever sold them the service should be legally > responsible for not warning them about the backlash they > will have undobtedly been subjected to by now. > Many of them are just automated machine that want a number and address. Letting the phone sit for a while will also drive their WATS line cost up as well. During the Sprint "Fridays Free" campaign, I'd spend a couple of hours on Fridays calling the non-800 numbers as well. > Then there's the purely vindictive, which no one would ever do: > 10) If their ISP won't do anything about them, do an altavista > search for "unsubscribe"; altruistically protect their email > from the same act that annoyed you in the first place, and > unsubscribe them from all the SPAM lists that exist. If you > did this a lot, you might even have a libhttp client that > could (after a while) hit several hundred of these with one > command line command... You could also just subscribe their email address to a list of *your* choice. After all, they seem to think putting people on email lists without their permission is acceptable. My favorite would be a news.answers digest, as they could clearly have questions they need answered. > Then there's the obvious nose-thumbing: > 7) If their email address is with an intolerant ISP, get the ISP > to shut it down. This can be automated, and is the point of the "Complain" button I suggested. The problem with all of these actions is that they're being done by a minute fraction of the users on the net. Evidence (i.e. - the infamouse green card spam) indicates that even 100 complaints per valid response is acceptable to spammers. Typical marketing numbers indicate that a 1% positive response is acceptable when the spammer actually pays for the message. The conlusion would seem to be that to have a noticable effect on spam, you need to get a *major* negative response. Hence you need a large majority of users to hit "Complain" instead of just "Delete". http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 22 15: 3:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from daffy.uwnet.nl (ns.isd-holland.nl [195.7.130.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B29F37B401 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:03:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abgoeree@uwnet.nl) Received: from dyn.dailup.c227140174.isd.to (dyn.dailup.c227140174.isd.to [213.227.140.174]) by daffy.uwnet.nl (8.11.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f1MN3DT13363 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:03:13 +0100 Received: (qmail 17581 invoked by uid 1000); 22 Feb 2001 22:36:47 -0000 From: "Andre Goeree" Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:36:47 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM was: (OT: [REJECTED MAIL]????????) Message-ID: <20010222233647.B17500@mandark.attica.home> Reply-To: abgoeree@uwnet.nl References: <20010220230057.A57762@mandark.attica.home> <14994.61220.340488.445773@guru.mired.org> <20010221111149.D929@mandark.attica.home> <14996.17748.832610.157775@guru.mired.org> <20010222104104.A36094@mandark.attica.home> <20010222072512.C30602@diskfarm.firehouse.net> <20010222140605.A14353@mandark.attica.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:20:30PM +0100 X-Sender: abgoeree@uwnet.nl Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 03:20:30PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Andre Goeree" writes: > > Oh yeah, i forgot about that, they already found out i have > > SMS on my mobile phone, and what do you know, it gets spammed! > > *Very* annoying because this stupid phone rings every time > > it gets a message and i don't know how to switch it off :-( > > Weird. Here in .no there has been a lot of press about kids getting > spam for porn hotlines and web sites sent to their cell phones, but > I've never gotten a singe piece of SMS spam in all the years I've had > an SMS-capable GSM phone. Neither have I ever heard a first-hand > report of SMS spam - I'm beginning to think it's a myth... > Well, it's Unsollicited/Unwanted, it's Commercial, it's just not Email, but i guess we could call it SPAM. About every week i get an SMS from my cell-phone supplier about their latest & greatest and if i please want to open an bank account or whatever that's absolutely not connected to cell-phones. Is this (some sort of) SPAM or what? Luckily i never cared to "register" the phone otherwise they would probably send it to my snailmail too. -- Andre. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 22 15: 3:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from daffy.uwnet.nl (ns.isd-holland.nl [195.7.130.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 851C837B4EC for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:03:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abgoeree@uwnet.nl) Received: from dyn.dailup.c227140174.isd.to (dyn.dailup.c227140174.isd.to [213.227.140.174]) by daffy.uwnet.nl (8.11.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f1MN3CT13359 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:03:12 +0100 Received: (qmail 17640 invoked by uid 1000); 22 Feb 2001 23:03:49 -0000 From: "Andre Goeree" Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:03:49 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SPAM was: (OT: [REJECTED MAIL]????????) Message-ID: <20010223000349.C17500@mandark.attica.home> Reply-To: abgoeree@uwnet.nl References: <20010220230057.A57762@mandark.attica.home> <14994.61220.340488.445773@guru.mired.org> <20010221111149.D929@mandark.attica.home> <14996.17748.832610.157775@guru.mired.org> <20010222104104.A36094@mandark.attica.home> <14997.31070.299908.592001@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <14997.31070.299908.592001@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 02:41:02PM -0600 X-Sender: abgoeree@uwnet.nl Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 02:41:02PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > Andre Goeree types: > > On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 04:46:44PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > Andre Goeree types: > > > > > Rather than install a filter, get a good automated complaint system, > > > > > and add a "complain" button to your mailer. If you do it often enough, > > > > > you'll get your address on the "complains about spam" blacklist, which > > > > > will start killill the spam at the source. That's a lot better than > > > > > killing it after it's gotten to your system. > > > > Is there a "complaints about SPAM" blacklist? I didn't know that. > > > > Sounds like a list i want to get on:) > > > > Would mail/adcomplain do the trick? > > > Well, some of the SPAM packages/sites (those that help produce it, not > > > those that help fight it) have lists of email addresses that are known > > > to generate complaints if you spam them. > > Sounds good to me, but it's actually the world up side down ;-) > > There should be a list where you have to be on if you want to > > receive SPAM, not if you don't want it... > > I already see SPAM messages like "if you don't want receive this > > JUNK register your address at ...." I believe this is yet another > > trick to get the real address :-( > > First my snailmail, next my phone, now my email, what's going to > > be spammed next? > > I'd agree that it's upside down, but it's also the way spam works on > all those other media. You have to ask to have your address taken off > their phone list or junk mail list. Of course, just asking to be > removed isn't enough for SPAM (and has been shown to get you put on > spam lists in some cases); you have to complain in such a way that > the spammer gets interfered with. > Well, I'd wish there was a *reliable* way to get to source of the SPAM, then you could mailbomb their whole site of the planet with complaints. That would be nice :-) Lets say a 1000 complaints back for every SPAM to begin with? This sure would get you on "the complaints about SPAM" list. Unfortunately as long as there are Open Relays, and loads of other tricks to hide the source, there's no way this could be achieved... > > > > > Hmm, sometimes i get spammed via mailing lists. I can only > > > > guess that the spammers don't have my direct mail address, > > > > but reacting to these messages would give them the address for sure... > > > Well, they may have it and some filter is getting it. On the other > > > hand, I sometimes see the same spam multiple times - to both one of my > > > mail addresses and to one or more of the lists I subscribe to. > > Yes, and a lot of mailing lists are "public" what AFAIK means > > that anybody can get a list of who's on it. Here where i live > > (the netherlands) i even heard of people getting PAID for each > > valid email address they report, can you believe that? > > Given that ads for spam software report "XXX Million addresses for > $YY", yeah, I believe it. Yes it's even true, but i won't believe that people are willing to do this for some lousy buck$. You get maybe a dollar or probably a lot less per address. I got better things to do with my time than to hunt the internet for addresses. People who do this are IMHO pitiful losers(TM), there are lots of better ways to make good & honest money. Cheers. --Andre. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 22 19:25:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-165-226-53.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.165.226.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8010D37B4EC for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:25:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 100C166C34; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:25:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:25:20 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: j mckitrick Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape story Message-ID: <20010222192520.A12511@mollari.cthul.hu> References: <20010221212930.A11954@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200102220606.XAA07799@usr05.primenet.com> <20010222125933.C19546@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="huq684BweRXVnRxX" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010222125933.C19546@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 12:59:34PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --huq684BweRXVnRxX Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 12:59:34PM +0000, j mckitrick wrote: > kicks on and stays on. Maybe Mozilla is different from N6, I don't know. Mozilla is light-years ahead of NS 6.0 (haven't tried the new NS6, I've got no need to.) Kris --huq684BweRXVnRxX Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6ldggWry0BWjoQKURAnoXAKD7pY0+nBBfW4qZGdjKaWuM4hJ6aACeMpe0 W2uCeubx9A3d5I9YUjPyhYw= =jT6T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --huq684BweRXVnRxX-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 22 19:30: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 241BD37B4EC for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:30:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1261"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K0FDUA58WO00H4HR@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:30:04 EST Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:45:26 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Netscape story To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3A95DCD6.B7A707C2@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010221212930.A11954@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200102220606.XAA07799@usr05.primenet.com> <20010222125933.C19546@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010222192520.A12511@mollari.cthul.hu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FWIW, I tried N6 for Windows and was very disappointed. My plugins, in particular the java stuff from dialpad and the ms media player) stopped working properly. I didn't find a way to sign messages either so I had to uninstall it. Pedro. Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 12:59:34PM +0000, j mckitrick wrote: > > > kicks on and stays on. Maybe Mozilla is different from N6, I don't know. > > Mozilla is light-years ahead of NS 6.0 (haven't tried the new NS6, > I've got no need to.) > > Kris > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Part 1.2Type: application/pgp-signature To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 22 21:39:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AEE837B401 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:39:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA09546; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:36:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAzQa4Ms; Thu Feb 22 22:36:07 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA09246; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:39:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102230539.WAA09246@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: SPAM was: (OT: [REJECTED MAIL]????????) To: abgoeree@uwnet.nl Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 05:39:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010222233647.B17500@mandark.attica.home> from "Andre Goeree" at Feb 22, 2001 11:36:47 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Well, it's Unsollicited/Unwanted, it's Commercial, it's just > not Email, but i guess we could call it SPAM. SPAM is an acronym; which is why we upcase it. It stands for "Shit Parading As Meat". Anything that is designed to make you thing it's actually for you when it's not, is SPAM. I've been getting white envelopes in the mail that have "Important information!" on them, and no other identifying marks, which is how some of your 1099-INT and other things arrive. You open them, only to find they are credit card offers. One long distance form actually printed an add on a partial impression carbon (the kind the IRS uses). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 22 23:24:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B2D37B4EC for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:24:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fanf@dotat.at) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #3) id 14WCZy-000NdG-00; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:23:50 +0000 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:23:50 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Terry Lambert Cc: abgoeree@uwnet.nl, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SPAM was: (OT: [REJECTED MAIL]????????) Message-ID: <20010223072350.E19285@hand.dotat.at> References: <20010222233647.B17500@mandark.attica.home> <200102230539.WAA09246@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200102230539.WAA09246@usr05.primenet.com> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > >SPAM is an acronym; which is why we upcase it. >It stands for "Shit Parading As Meat". Please go away until you have purged all the retcons from your lexicon. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at HEBRIDES: NORTHWESTERLY VEERING NORTHEASTERLY 6 TO GALE 8, DECREASING 4, BACKING NORTHWESTERLY AND INCREASING 5 TO 7 LATER. WINTRY SHOWERS. GOOD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 22 23:51:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n37.san.rr.com (dt051n37.san.rr.com [204.210.32.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C300B37B65D for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:51:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (Studded@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n37.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22067; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:51:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Message-ID: <3A96167D.42621266@gorean.org> Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:51:25 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: David Scheidt , Craig Harding , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Reserved IP Addresses References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > David Scheidt writes: > > I don't see a problem here. Is this route supposed to be directly > > accessable outside of their network? If it's behind their border routers, > > and not for use outside hte netwok, a private network address is quite > > reasonable. > > No, it's not reasonable to use such addresses for equipment that is > visible from the outside. Whether this is "reasonable" is still a matter of tremendous debate, but it's very common to use 1918 space for equipment that will not see packets from the outside world. Doug -- "Pain heals. Chicks dig scars. Glory . . . lasts forever." -- Keanu Reeves as Shane Falco in "The Replacements" Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 23 0: 1:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D90A237B401 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:01:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f1N81iu35986 ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:01:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id JAA97812 ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:01:44 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:01:44 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Kris Kennaway Cc: j mckitrick , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape story Message-ID: <20010223090144.A97454@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Kris Kennaway , j mckitrick , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010221212930.A11954@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200102220606.XAA07799@usr05.primenet.com> <20010222125933.C19546@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010222192520.A12511@mollari.cthul.hu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010222192520.A12511@mollari.cthul.hu>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 07:25:20PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway said on Feb 22, 2001 at 19:25:20: > On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 12:59:34PM +0000, j mckitrick wrote: > > > kicks on and stays on. Maybe Mozilla is different from N6, I don't know. > > Mozilla is light-years ahead of NS 6.0 (haven't tried the new NS6, > I've got no need to.) Mozilla has not crashed on me even once (versions 0.7 and 0.8 on FreeBSD). I can't think of another browser I can say that about, well maybe w3m (even lynx has crashed sometimes). But it is slow -- on a PII-400 MHz with around 128 MB RAM, it still takes a while to startup and often takes time to redraw the window, with some very ugly-looking intermediate stages. I don't think it would be usable on an older/slower machine. (The rendering engine is fast, especially with tables where it doesn't wait for all images to be downloaded first before displaying. It's the UI which seems to bog it down.) I haven't tried the new NS6 and only briefly tried the older one, so can't comment. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 23 4:40:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6456237B503 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:40:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 218C57567; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:40:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F0611D8E; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:40:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:40:34 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brett Glass Cc: Kris Kennaway , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape story In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010221173958.04a8b510@localhost> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Brett Glass wrote: :At 02:46 PM 2/21/2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: : :>Well, this sounds like a plausible story, but do you have any :>references to back this up? :Most of what I've heard has been by word of mouth, but after :a Web search I've found a document on the Mozilla site that :voiced concerns about these issues as far back as 1999. See :http://www.mozilla.org/mozilla-at-one.html You could hit jwz's website as well. I seem to recall him making public statements about why he quit working on anything Netscape/Mozilla related. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 23 4:43:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2025E37B491 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:43:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14WHZ4-0009wj-00; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:43:14 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f1NChDU29145; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:43:13 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:43:13 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Brett Glass , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape story Message-ID: <20010223124313.B28926@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010221173958.04a8b510@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 04:40:34AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | You could hit jwz's website as well. I seem to recall him making public | statements about why he quit working on anything Netscape/Mozilla related. I think a message in reply to this one posted that link. It answered most, if not all of my questions. Thanks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 23 5:39: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl (wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl [131.155.56.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A744237B401 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 05:39:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karelj@wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl) Received: (from karelj@localhost) by wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f1NDbrk97232 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:37:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from karelj) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:36:32 +0100 From: "Karel J. Bosschaart" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Beastie Statuette Message-ID: <20010223143632.A97209@wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.siliconbreeze.com/beastie/ Wow, very cool!! Karel. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 23 6:58:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lunatic.oneinsane.net (lunatic.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0622437B4EC for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 06:58:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net) Received: by lunatic.oneinsane.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3862D15556; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 06:58:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 06:58:08 -0800 From: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Beastie Statuette Message-ID: <20010223065807.A84288@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Reply-To: Ron Rosson Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20010223143632.A97209@wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010223143632.A97209@wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl>; from karelj@wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl on Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 02:36:32PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD lunatic.oneinsane.net 4.2-STABLE X-Moon: The Moon is New X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net X-GPG-FINGERPRINT: 3F11 DB43 F080 C037 96F0 F8D3 5BD2 652B 171C 86DB X-Uptime: 6:55AM up 29 days, 13:01, 2 users, load averages: 0.05, 0.06, 0.02 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Karel J. Bosschaart (karelj@wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl) wrote: > > http://www.siliconbreeze.com/beastie/ > > Wow, very cool!! > I showed my wife and told her my birthday is coming up. I hope she got the hint. ;-) Way to Cool. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I just want revenge, is that so wrong? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 23 8:46:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web113.yahoomail.com (web113.mail.yahoo.com [205.180.60.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 40FEE37B401 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:46:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s_ain_t@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 10760 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Feb 2001 16:46:38 -0000 Message-ID: <20010223164638.10759.qmail@web113.yahoomail.com> Received: from [64.230.72.101] by web113.yahoomail.com; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:46:38 PST Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:46:38 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Shpak Subject: Re: Beastie Statuette To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20010223065807.A84288@lunatic.oneinsane.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I want one now --- Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson wrote: > Karel J. Bosschaart (karelj@wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl) > wrote: > > > > http://www.siliconbreeze.com/beastie/ > > > > Wow, very cool!! > > > > > I showed my wife and told her my birthday is coming > up. I hope she got > the hint. ;-) > > Way to Cool. > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user > said ... > The InSaNe One rm -rf * > insane@oneinsane.net and all was > /dev/null and *void() > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > I just want revenge, is that so wrong? > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 23 10: 3:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED1BB37B401 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:03:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14WMZ4-000Ggm-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:03:34 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f1NI3Xi33525 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:03:33 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:03:33 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: bad programming practice? Message-ID: <20010223180321.A33329@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I recently posted an example showing a simple C rule my company uses that eliminates a simple error. if(var == CONST) can generate a bug if you forget an equals sign. But using if(CONST == var) will create an error if you forget an equals sign. Obviously, this is just a trick to prevent a sloppy coding error, but why is it so disdained? What is wrong with using such tricks to make our job easier? Jonathon -- Tech support: Try this. Arrange the parts in neat piles. Stand on your chair until you can see over your cubicle walls. Now shout "Does anybody know how to read a manual?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 23 10:34:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB4737B4EC for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:34:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f1NIYgu02029 ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:34:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA23635 ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:34:42 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:34:42 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bad programming practice? Message-ID: <20010223193442.A23185@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010223180321.A33329@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010223180321.A33329@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 06:03:33PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick said on Feb 23, 2001 at 18:03:33: > > I recently posted an example showing a simple C rule my company uses that > eliminates a simple error. > > if(var == CONST) > > can generate a bug if you forget an equals sign. > > But using > > if(CONST == var) > > will create an error if you forget an equals sign. > > Obviously, this is just a trick to prevent a sloppy coding error, but why is > it so disdained? What is wrong with using such tricks to make our job > easier? In this particular case -- convention? It just seems more ``natural'' to me to say if (var==CONST) rather than if (CONST==var). (Perhaps because it's more in line with regular math usage -- when writing something in English I'll always write "if n is 1" and never "if 1 is n": the latter just sounds weird, what can 1 be other than 1?) That in turn makes the code (and the English text) more readable -- one such occurrence is ok, just makes you stop a bit while reading, but many such strange usages will just annoy the reader. And anyway, as someone pointed out earlier, most compilers will warn you if you forget an = (you may need a compiler flag like -Wall). Any other examples of such tricks, where perhaps compiler warnings won't help? -Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 23 12:30:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61FA937B4EC for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:30:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keichii@peorth.iteration.net) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 119155952B; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:30:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:30:20 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bad programming practice? Message-ID: <20010223143019.E32113@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20010223180321.A33329@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010223180321.A33329@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 06:03:33PM +0000 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 06:03:33PM +0000, j mckitrick scribbled: | | I recently posted an example showing a simple C rule my company uses that | eliminates a simple error. | | if(var == CONST) | | can generate a bug if you forget an equals sign. | | But using | | if(CONST == var) | | will create an error if you forget an equals sign. | | Obviously, this is just a trick to prevent a sloppy coding error, but why is | it so disdained? What is wrong with using such tricks to make our job | easier? When you have a very lengthy boolean expression, it causes headaches to read the code. However, I do teach new students of C or C++ to use the if (CONST == var) formatting just so that they do not mess up. Then I explain to them why it is a bad idea when they advance into a better programmer. (This has backfired on me once from a student, people who attended BSDCon2k know the story of the student in my OS class.) Personally, I think most C/C++ programmers eventually learn to always watch for == vs. = mistakes right when they type the boolean expression. Hence, the trick becomes useless as one advances. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 23 15:34: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426FA37B491 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:34:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f1NNKnY32017; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:20:49 -0800 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:20:49 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bad programming practice? Message-ID: <20010223152049.A31038@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20010223180321.A33329@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010223143019.E32113@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6TrnltStXW4iwmi0" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010223143019.E32113@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 02:30:20PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --6TrnltStXW4iwmi0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 02:30:20PM -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: > Personally, I think most C/C++ programmers eventually learn to always > watch for =3D=3D vs. =3D mistakes right when they type the boolean expres= sion. > Hence, the trick becomes useless as one advances. There's also the fact that GCC and other compilers with even vaguly decent warnings complain about this mistake if you turn warnings on. I think it's probably not bad practice in a corprate environment where you can enforce a style, but it's probably unnecessicary with decent tools. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --6TrnltStXW4iwmi0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6lvBQXY6L6fI4GtQRAmLyAJ9YrhYOWzTrsshr+v1UVy0q4YaLIwCfVCYz Bm4wCep2kz6JHa2YpD6k/8U= =qGwJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6TrnltStXW4iwmi0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 23 16:25:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3624637B4EC for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:25:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup1852.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.235.60] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.10) with ESMTP id f1O0N9q21168; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 01:23:09 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010223143019.E32113@peorth.iteration.net> References: <20010223180321.A33329@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010223143019.E32113@peorth.iteration.net> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 01:21:28 +0100 To: "Michael C . Wu" , j mckitrick From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: bad programming practice? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:30 PM -0600 2/23/01, Michael C . Wu wrote: > When you have a very lengthy boolean expression, it causes > headaches to read the code. However, I do teach new students > of C or C++ to use the if (CONST == var) formatting just so that > they do not mess up. Then I explain to them why it is a bad idea > when they advance into a better programmer. This may be an Urban Legend, but I understand that even Einstein divided by zero, by mistake. IMO, anything like this that can help me catch stupid mistakes (regardless of how many warnings may or may not be turned on), is a good thing -- even if I do learn to outgrow the technique at a later time. It would certainly help me if more people were paranoid as possible and did things like this -- I can't tell you how many times I've tried to compile something where there was an elementary error of this sort which would have been caught by better programming techniques. The truly sad thing is that many times it is much harder to find things like this because many programmers are so sloppy, or compilers are so different on so many machines, that most programs I end up building from source either generate a lot of warnings and the attitude is that this is okay, or the build scripts explicitly turn off all warnings because the programmers don't want to hear about it. -- ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 23 16:37:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from daffy.uwnet.nl (ns.isd-holland.nl [195.7.130.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97F4D37B4EC for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:37:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abgoeree@uwnet.nl) Received: from dyn.dailup.c227140238.isd.to (dyn.dailup.c227140238.isd.to [213.227.140.238]) by daffy.uwnet.nl (8.11.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f1O0bVT21461 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 01:37:31 +0100 Received: (qmail 55138 invoked by uid 1000); 24 Feb 2001 00:40:42 -0000 From: "Andre Goeree" Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 01:40:42 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: When will script kiddies ever learn? Message-ID: <20010224014042.A39092@mandark.attica.home> Reply-To: abgoeree@uwnet.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Sender: abgoeree@uwnet.nl Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nice, look what happened while fetching ports: Feb 24 01:17:24 mandark /kernel: ipfw: 2200 Deny TCP 205.241.169.135:80 213.227.140.238:2049 in via tun0 Feb 24 01:17:36 mandark last message repeated 4 times Script kiddies? Who else would be stupid enough to look for a nfs server. -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 23 16:52:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from apotheosis.org.za (apotheosis.org.za [137.158.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7056D37B491 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:52:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwest@uct.ac.za) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 02:52:03 +0200 From: Matthew West To: Andre Goeree Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will script kiddies ever learn? Message-ID: <20010224025203.A97408@apotheosis.org.za> References: <20010224014042.A39092@mandark.attica.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010224014042.A39092@mandark.attica.home>; from "Andre Goeree" on Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 01:40:42AM Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 01:40:42AM +0100, Andre Goeree wrote: > Nice, look what happened while fetching ports: > > Feb 24 01:17:24 mandark /kernel: ipfw: 2200 Deny TCP 205.241.169.135:80 213.227.140.238:2049 in via tun0 > Feb 24 01:17:36 mandark last message repeated 4 times > > Script kiddies? Who else would be stupid enough to look for a nfs > server. Hrm, 205.241.169.135 resolves to ns2.davidv.net, which, if you point your browser to it, has quite a FreeBSD centric web page. Are you sure you weren't perhaps fetching port distfiles from there somewhere? Or just browsing the page? If you weren't, then you might want to drop the domain owner a note that his machine's being used to do scans. Judging by it's name, my money's on them having used a bind exploit to get in. I can't get an answer from the machine with "dig" though. -- mwest@uct.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 23 19:11:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F4637B4EC for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:11:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA15859; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:05:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAkfai1E; Fri Feb 23 20:05:46 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA06173; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:11:14 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102240311.UAA06173@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: bad programming practice? To: brad.knowles@skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 03:11:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: keichii@peorth.iteration.net (Michael C . Wu), jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Feb 24, 2001 01:21:28 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This may be an Urban Legend, but I understand that even Einstein > divided by zero, by mistake. I think you are talking about the Lorentz transformation; if so, it wasn't a mistake. 8-). > It would certainly help me if more people were paranoid as > possible and did things like this -- I can't tell you how many times > I've tried to compile something where there was an elementary error > of this sort which would have been caught by better programming > techniques. Or a better programmer? I don't think it's unreasonable to expect tools to do the work of dealing with what are, in 20/20 hindsight, language design deficiencies (personally, I still think there should be sized types, and that volatile ought to be a qualifier on functions effecting their external references, and not on storage classes, and that prototypes and object file decorations are an artifact of people too lazy to rewrite linker code and object file formats, instead of making it a problem for compiler users to have to deal with). I also don't feel that it's elitist to have people who can't get code correct without resorting to techniques either be forced to use such tools, or get a job in another field. > The truly sad thing is that many times it is much harder to find > things like this because many programmers are so sloppy, or compilers > are so different on so many machines, that most programs I end up > building from source either generate a lot of warnings and the > attitude is that this is okay, or the build scripts explicitly turn > off all warnings because the programmers don't want to hear about it. All of which argues for more rigorous language design and higher employment standards. Lacking the first, well, McDonalds is hiring in my neighborhood, and people who aren't qualified for the job for which they are hired should seek other employment. There is nothing worse than someone borderline who pads their resume. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 23 23:41: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2DDC37B491 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:41:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f1O7f0u46170 ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:41:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id IAA50375 ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:40:58 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:40:58 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bad programming practice? Message-ID: <20010224084058.A50136@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010223180321.A33329@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010223143019.E32113@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010223143019.E32113@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 02:30:20PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Michael C . Wu said on Feb 23, 2001 at 14:30:20: > Personally, I think most C/C++ programmers eventually learn to always > watch for == vs. = mistakes right when they type the boolean expression. > Hence, the trick becomes useless as one advances. In this thread, I think this is the comment which really hits it. Think of it this way: any normal person would tend to write "if (n==1)". Now, to get around using = accidentally for ==, you either have to train yourself to write "if (1==n)" consistently every time, or you train yourself to check that == every time you write such an expression. Why not just train yourself to check the ==? Similarly, when reading someone else's code, if you train yourself to check the == you may catch such errors more easily. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 24 1:24:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from daffy.uwnet.nl (ns.isd-holland.nl [195.7.130.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2CD537B401 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 01:24:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abgoeree@uwnet.nl) Received: from dyn.dailup.c227129151.isd.to (dyn.dailup.c227129151.isd.to [213.227.129.151]) by daffy.uwnet.nl (8.11.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f1O9OWT03402 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:24:32 +0100 Received: (qmail 754 invoked by uid 1000); 24 Feb 2001 08:55:55 -0000 From: "Andre Goeree" Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:55:55 +0100 To: Matthew West Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will script kiddies ever learn? Message-ID: <20010224095555.A681@mandark.attica.home> Reply-To: abgoeree@uwnet.nl References: <20010224014042.A39092@mandark.attica.home> <20010224025203.A97408@apotheosis.org.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010224025203.A97408@apotheosis.org.za>; from mwest@uct.ac.za on Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 02:52:03AM +0200 X-Sender: abgoeree@uwnet.nl Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 02:52:03AM +0200, Matthew West wrote: > On Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 01:40:42AM +0100, Andre Goeree wrote: > > Nice, look what happened while fetching ports: > > > > Feb 24 01:17:24 mandark /kernel: ipfw: 2200 Deny TCP 205.241.169.135:80 213.227.140.238:2049 in via tun0 > > Feb 24 01:17:36 mandark last message repeated 4 times > > > > Script kiddies? Who else would be stupid enough to look for a nfs > > server. > > Hrm, 205.241.169.135 resolves to ns2.davidv.net, which, if you point > your browser to it, has quite a FreeBSD centric web page. Well, this must have something to do with the flaky DNS of my ISP :-( I *always* do a host lookup twice or three times before drawing my conclusions (too soon as it appears...). If it says "host not found" or resolves to some "dynamic ip" like my own, you know there's something going on. Next is to "ipfw add 50 deny" the IP out of my world and see what happens. If it breaks something i'm doing i would know it immediately but, i caught it a little late this time, read below ... Now you mention it, i've been browsing http://www.davidv.net (cool site :-) while fetching ports..... Ehhhhhh, ooops? :-} > > Are you sure you weren't perhaps fetching port distfiles from there > somewhere? Or just browsing the page? Hmm, i caught it a little late this time. Normally i keep an eyeball on my xconsole as soon as i stay longer online than 5 min. Because 99% of the times nothing (or something explainable) happens, i got a little sloppy about this good habit. > > If you weren't, then you might want to drop the domain owner a note > that his machine's being used to do scans. Judging by it's name, my > money's on them having used a bind exploit to get in. > Well, i can't be sure about that this time.. I think i will cook up something that rings the bell if something suspicious happens (i have some cool sounds for this :-). > I can't get an answer from the machine with "dig" though. > That's what made me think this was an incident in the first place. Andre. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 24 5:34:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2DDD37B401 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 05:34:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA55646; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:26:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bad programming practice? References: <20010223180321.A33329@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010223143019.E32113@peorth.iteration.net> <20010224084058.A50136@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 24 Feb 2001 14:26:26 +0100 In-Reply-To: Rahul Siddharthan's message of "Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:40:58 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Think of it this way: any normal person would tend to write "if > (n==1)". Now, to get around using = accidentally for ==, you either > have to train yourself to write "if (1==n)" consistently every time, > or you train yourself to check that == every time you write such an > expression. Why not just train yourself to check the ==? Why not just train yourself to always compile with -Wall -pedantic? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 24 7: 4:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF2E137B401 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:04:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: by gw.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 15CA518C91; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:04:26 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:04:25 -0600 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , "Michael C . Wu" , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bad programming practice? Message-ID: <20010224090425.A30456@spawn.nectar.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Terry Lambert , Brad Knowles , "Michael C . Wu" , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200102240311.UAA06173@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200102240311.UAA06173@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 03:11:14AM +0000 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 03:11:14AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > (personally, I still think there should be sized types, Do you mean as in , or something else? > There is nothing worse than someone borderline who pads their > resume. Thank goodness that employers can avoid bad hiring decisions by simply looking for, say, Microsoft certification. :-) Cheers, -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 24 7:11:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D6137B491 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:11:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: by gw.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 45ACE18C91; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:11:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:11:38 -0600 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Andre Goeree Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When will script kiddies ever learn? Message-ID: <20010224091138.B30456@spawn.nectar.com> References: <20010224014042.A39092@mandark.attica.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010224014042.A39092@mandark.attica.home>; from abgoeree@uwnet.nl on Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 01:40:42AM +0100 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 01:40:42AM +0100, Andre Goeree wrote: > Nice, look what happened while fetching ports: > > Feb 24 01:17:24 mandark /kernel: ipfw: 2200 Deny TCP 205.241.169.135:80 213.227.140.238:2049 in via tun0 > Feb 24 01:17:36 mandark last message repeated 4 times > > Script kiddies? Who else would be stupid enough to look for > a nfs server. That's not NFS. That's an ephemeral port for your HTTP connection. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 24 12:15:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DC5C37B4EC for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 12:15:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA06493; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:11:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAASyayNm; Sat Feb 24 13:11:50 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA23639; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:14:50 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102242014.NAA23639@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: bad programming practice? To: n@nectar.com (Jacques A. Vidrine) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:14:50 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), brad.knowles@skynet.be (Brad Knowles), keichii@peorth.iteration.net (Michael C . Wu), jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010224090425.A30456@spawn.nectar.com> from "Jacques A. Vidrine" at Feb 24, 2001 09:04:25 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > (personally, I still think there should be sized types, > > Do you mean as in , or something else? I mean that: sizeof(char) <= sizeof(short) <= sizeof(int) <= sizeof(long) has always been a handicap for the C language, and continues to be a handicap to this day. When you get an architecture where this is 8,16,32,32, everything is OK. When you get one where it's 8,16,16,32, it's also OK (barely). When you get one where it's 8,16,32,64, or (particularly) 8,16,64,64, or 8,32,64,64, then there's hell to pay when mapping device registers. The language needs sized types, since it's intended to be capable of mapping hardware, directly. Packing is another problem, if you want to use a structure to aggregate disparate fields into a consecutive region (as much hardware does with, for example, control registers or I/O space). Bitfields have always been more of an abomination than bit manipulation in objects of "at least this big" types, but the "at least this big" typing has led to a lot of glue, like that used with FD_SET. For things you don't care about, there need to be "at least" sizes; this lets the machine pick a "preferred" size for both registers and bus transfers. Does anyone remember the 68k? The size of "int" varied between 16 bit (the maximum single cycle fetch size) and 32 (the register size). Which was correct depended on whether "most efficient" meant "capable of being fetched in the least number of cycles" or "biggest object upon which a single operation can operate". The former was more efficient for I/O, the latter for sustained bit and other operations. X3J11 really copped out when it decided to try to be uncontroversial, at the same time letting compiler companies dictate that there would be no linker changes required. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 24 18: 8:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CBC637B401 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 18:08:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: by gw.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 019D918C91; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:08:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:08:55 -0600 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , "Michael C . Wu" , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bad programming practice? Message-ID: <20010224200855.B31832@spawn.nectar.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Terry Lambert , Brad Knowles , "Michael C . Wu" , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010224090425.A30456@spawn.nectar.com> <200102242014.NAA23639@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200102242014.NAA23639@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 08:14:50PM +0000 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 08:14:50PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > (personally, I still think there should be sized types, > > > > Do you mean as in , or something else? [snip] > The language needs sized types, since it's intended to be capable > of mapping hardware, directly. [snip] > For things you don't care about, there need to be "at least" > sizes; this lets the machine pick a "preferred" size for both > registers and bus transfers. These are things that C99's seem to provide. Excerpt from ISO 9899:1999 section 7.18: 1 The header declares sets of integer types having specified widths, and defines corresponding sets of macros. It also defines macros that specify limits of integer types corresponding to types defined in other standard headers. 2 Types are defined in the following categories: integer types having certain exact widths; integer types having at least certain specified widths; fastest integer types having at least certain specified widths; integer types wide enough to hold pointers to objects; integer types having greatest width. e.g. uint24_t i286addr; uint_least16_t offset; int_fast16_t accum; Unfortunately, many of these types are optional, and I guess GCC doesn't supply a stdint.h yet. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message