From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 4 0:35:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from buntharik.spu.ac.th (buntarik.spu.ac.th [202.44.68.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA8837B718 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 00:35:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from amnuay@spu.ac.th) Received: from A by buntharik.spu.ac.th; (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/09Oct97-0907AM) id PAA07480; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:15:01 +0700 (GMT+0700) Message-ID: <000a01c0a486$f5df5100$80442cca@spu.ac.th> From: "Amnuay Muthitacharoen" To: Subject: Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:41:50 +0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0A4C1.A0D486E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0A4C1.A0D486E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-874" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Could anyone tell me if T1 link supports 24 voice channels, which = means the telephone company could issue=20 24 numbers for its customers, then these channels will be half-duplex , = correct ? If they are half-duplex, are they useful for voice communications ? amnuay ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0A4C1.A0D486E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-874" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
    Could anyone tell me = if T1 link=20 supports 24 voice channels, which means the telephone company could = issue=20
24 numbers for its customers, then = these channels=20 will be half-duplex , correct ?
    If they are = half-duplex, are=20 they useful for voice communications ?
 
    amnuay
 
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0A4C1.A0D486E0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 4 4: 5:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B71C37B719 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 04:05:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f24C52u79418 ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:05:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA32375 ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:05:01 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:05:01 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Trent Waddington Cc: Brett Glass , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010304130501.A32152@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Trent Waddington , Brett Glass , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from s337240@student.uq.edu.au on Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 06:40:14AM +1000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Trent Waddington said on Mar 4, 2001 at 06:40:14: > On Sat, 3 Mar 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > > Not true! Barlow wasn't involved in computer technology at all until he > > got on the Well and then went to the Hackers' Conference in 1985. By then, > > Stallman was already ranting about GNU. Barlow picked up Stallman's views > > about copyright at that time. (It's also where he met Mitch Kapor.) I > > know; I was an organizer of the conference. > > Dude, the Grateful Dead were popularising tape trading before they were > popular, circa 1973. Well, they didn't permit "bootlegging" and they allowed tape trading only when no money changed hands -- I think that's the policy of the surviving members even today. It's not an anti-copyright stance, imo: it's just a "lets be friendly to the fans" thing, with perhaps the added rationale that people who hear your music in other ways first are more likely to buy your albums later. They do not permit free copying of their released albums, even on a non-profit basis. Nevertheless, I'm not convinced by the argument that Barlow, and everyone else who disagrees with present-day copyright laws, has been somehow brainwashed by Stallman. I don't think he's *that* influential, and I don't think the issues are so trivial that he's the only one interested in raising them. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 4 5: 5:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5073237B718 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 05:05:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA95440; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:05:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Amnuay Muthitacharoen" Cc: Subject: Re: none References: <000a01c0a486$f5df5100$80442cca@spu.ac.th> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 04 Mar 2001 14:05:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Amnuay Muthitacharoen"'s message of "Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:41:50 +0700" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Amnuay Muthitacharoen" writes: > Could anyone tell me if T1 link supports 24 voice channels, > which means the telephone company could issue 24 numbers for its > customers, then these channels will be half-duplex , correct ? A telco can assign as many numbers as it wants to a customer, regardless of how many actual phone lines the customer has. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 4 5:29: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD35837B71B for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 05:29:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from trevor@jpj.net) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f24DS1d26549; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 08:28:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 08:28:01 -0500 (EST) From: Trevor Johnson To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <20010304130501.A32152@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: <20010304082413.E25558-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > They do not permit free copying of their released albums, even on a > non-profit basis. From my reading of http://www.riaa.com/Copyright-Laws-4.cfm and a glance at the actual law, in the United States this is legal to do with cassette tapes, minidisks, or DATs. -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 4 5:40:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1E437B719 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 05:40:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f24DeGu84177 ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:40:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA36570 ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:40:16 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:40:16 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Trevor Johnson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010304144016.B32152@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Trevor Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010304130501.A32152@lpt.ens.fr> <20010304082413.E25558-100000@blues.jpj.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010304082413.E25558-100000@blues.jpj.net>; from trevor@jpj.net on Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 08:28:01AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Trevor Johnson said on Mar 4, 2001 at 08:28:01: > > They do not permit free copying of their released albums, even on a > > non-profit basis. > > >From my reading of http://www.riaa.com/Copyright-Laws-4.cfm and a glance > at the actual law, in the United States this is legal to do with cassette > tapes, minidisks, or DATs. I meant, for redistribution. I had the impression that "private use" meant for your own use, ie, taping your CDs to use on your walkman and that sort of thing, and it's illegal to borrow a CD from someone else and tape it, or tape your CDs for others, etc. If that's legal, I don't see why napster could possibly be illegal. But IANAL... If any form of free non-profit copying is allowed, then I don't see why the fact that they allowed circulation of concert tapes is special. It's true, though, that they allowed fans to plug their tape decks directly into the soundboards, which most other bands didn't allow. I think many bands explicitly prohibit taping at concerts, by whatever means. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 4 7: 6:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74AFD37B719 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 07:06:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from trevor@jpj.net) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f24F61r28889; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 10:06:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 10:06:00 -0500 (EST) From: Trevor Johnson To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <20010304144016.B32152@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: <20010304094841.U25558-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I meant, for redistribution. I had the impression that "private use" > meant for your own use, ie, taping your CDs to use on your walkman and > that sort of thing, and it's illegal to borrow a CD from someone else > and tape it, or tape your CDs for others, etc. If that's legal, I > don't see why napster could possibly be illegal. But IANAL... The Web page I mentioned says that only certain media are covered by the AHRA, and gives the ones I named as examples. > If any form of free non-profit copying is allowed, then I don't see > why the fact that they allowed circulation of concert tapes is > special. The law says "noncommercial use" but the RIAA's Web page says "private use". Most likely, one of them is inaccurate. :) > I think many bands explicitly prohibit taping at concerts, by whatever > means. I think you're right. -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 4 13:23:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-56-129.knology.net [24.214.56.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71CFF37B719 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:23:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f24LMge48965; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:22:42 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200103042122.f24LMge48965@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: "Amnuay Muthitacharoen" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: In-reply-to: Message from "Amnuay Muthitacharoen" of "Sun, 04 Mar 2001 15:41:50 +0700." <000a01c0a486$f5df5100$80442cca@spu.ac.th> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 15:22:42 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Please do not send HTML formatted email to lists. Its ugly, like this: "Amnuay Muthitacharoen" writes: > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0A4C1.A0D486E0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="windows-874" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Hi, > Could anyone tell me if T1 link supports 24 voice channels, which = > means the telephone company could issue=20 > 24 numbers for its customers, then these channels will be half-duplex , = > correct ? > If they are half-duplex, are they useful for voice communications ? > > amnuay > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0A4C1.A0D486E0 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="windows-874" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > charset=3Dwindows-874"> > > > > >
Hi,
>
    Could anyone tell me = > if T1 link=20 > supports 24 voice channels, which means the telephone company could = > issue=20 >
>
24 numbers for its customers, then = > these channels=20 > will be half-duplex , correct ?
>
    If they are = > half-duplex, are=20 > they useful for voice communications ?
>
 
>
    amnuay
>
 
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C0A4C1.A0D486E0-- A T1 is was designed for voice channels. Data use came later. The 24 channels are full duplex. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 4 13:41: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from roaming.cacheboy.net (roaming.cacheboy.net [203.56.168.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 174FC37B719 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:40:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@roaming.cacheboy.net) Received: (from adrian@localhost) by roaming.cacheboy.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f24Lfpf03285; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:41:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from adrian) Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:41:51 +0100 From: Adrian Chadd To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT modules Message-ID: <20010304224151.A3264@roaming.cacheboy.net> References: <20010301234712.A47820@mollari.cthul.hu> <200103011801.f21I1VW48363@freefall.freebsd.org> <20010302033532.A69557@cartier.cirx.org> <20010301234712.A47820@mollari.cthul.hu> <200103021706.f22H6Ad58131@harmony.village.org> <20010302154947.C41267@mollari.cthul.hu> <20010304185408.A2288@roaming.cacheboy.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 10:31:08PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat, which I'm thankfully not on atm :-] On Sun, Mar 04, 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Adrian Chadd writes: > > .. and that brought me to remember something I saw somewhere. > > > > From 'Principia Mathematica', Volume 1, A N Whitehead and B Russell. > > Page 362: > > > > "From this proposition it will follow, when arithmetical addition has > > been defined, that 1 + 1 = 2." > > ISTR that _Principa Mathematica_ is the book (nay, monument) that > Gödel set out to abolish. PM's authors were of the opinion that > everything could be described using mathematics, whereas Gödel proved > that no matter what level of abstraction you chose, there would always > be statements that couldn't be formulated at that level. > > (based on my recollections of Hofstädter's _Gödel, Escher, Bach: An > Eternal Golden Braid_) ISTR that too. I just don't want to find my copy of that and search through it before I go to bed. :-) In any case, this book mentions right before the Mathematica "quote" that Russell observed that "the mathematician can never put onto paper the 'complete process of reasoning', but rather must settle for 'such an abstract of the proof as is sufficient to convince a properly instructed mind.'" It then runs off to question why Russell then went to co-author PM. Perhaps there's a lesson in here somewhere? :) Thanks guys. I now have the motivation to re-read or finish some of the books I have lying on my shelf gathering dust. :-P Adrian -- Adrian Chadd "Programming is like sex: One mistake and you have to support for a lifetime." -- rec.humor.funny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 4 23:49:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76BB037B718 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 23:49:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA19569; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 00:45:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 00:45:21 -0700 To: Trent Waddington From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:40 PM 3/3/2001, Trent Waddington wrote: >Dude, the Grateful Dead were popularising tape trading before they were >popular, circa 1973. D00d, John Perry Barlow didn't go on his anti-copright crusade until years later -- after he had made quite a lot of money from the sale of Grateful Dead albums. (The Dead did decide not to try to stop trading of live performance tapes, since they couldn't really do much about it anyhow. But they NEVER tolerated trading of copies of their published albums.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 4:35:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60E9037B71A for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 04:35:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from daemon@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 14ZuCq-0003qI-00; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:35:16 +0100 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.2/8.11.1) id f25BWBV38550 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:32:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Machines are getting too damn fast Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:32:10 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <97vtfq$14al$3@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <200103040934.f249YHi27877@earth.backplane.com> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matt Dillon wrote: [Matt raves about some high-end PC box] > I'm tring to imagine 1.3 GHz. That's over a billion instructions > a second. And in a few years with the new chip fab lithography > standards it's going to be 10 GHz. > > We need to find something more interesting then buildworlds to do on > these machines. I'm having flashbacks to those reviews of 386DX-25 boxes when they became first available. (And I could go back further in time, but this would be increasingly silly.) ((I'm feeling old.)) -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 4:49:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965A537B718 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 04:49:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f25Cncu76144 ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:49:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA83885 ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:49:37 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:49:37 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Trent Waddington , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Trent Waddington , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 12:45:21AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Dude, the Grateful Dead were popularising tape trading before they were > >popular, circa 1973. > > D00d, John Perry Barlow didn't go on his anti-copright crusade until years > later -- after he had made quite a lot of money from the sale of Grateful > Dead albums. (The Dead did decide not to try to stop trading of live > performance tapes, since they couldn't really do much about it anyhow. They not only did not try to stop it, they allowed fans to plug their equipment into their soundboards. Many of those tapes, some going back to the 1960s, are of astonishingly good quality. Other bands have been doing this in recent years, but the Dead were the first and for many years the only ones, and it did bring them into direct conflict with their record companies. They never made much money from album sales, but were one of the biggest concert-grossing bands of all time -- which itself would make their record labels unhappy... > But they NEVER tolerated trading of copies of their published albums.) True. I'm not sure what Barlow's stand is on that today -- but he only wrote lyrics to a smallish minority of their songs. I would argue, though, that back in the 1960s and 1970s people weren't so worried that this whole IP thing is getting out of control. Today, when you have a situation where doctors can actually patent surgical techniques and then sue other doctors for using those techniques to treat patients, many people feel emboldened to take a much more aggressive stance against intellectual property in general. --Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 10:49:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0FA37B71A for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:49:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24542; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:47:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:47:25 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Trent Waddington , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:49 AM 3/5/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >They not only did not try to stop it, they allowed fans to plug their >equipment into their soundboards. Yes, they did. Considering that the band made a lot of money from concerts and bootlegs were being made anyway, this actually increased their concert revenues. >> But they NEVER tolerated trading of copies of their published albums.) > >True. I'm not sure what Barlow's stand is on that today -- but he >nly wrote lyrics to a smallish minority of their songs. Also true. Barlow seems not to realize that his status as an object of worship is a matter of sheer luck.... There are plenty of lyricists who are as good or better who just didn't happen to know a member of the Grateful Dead from high school. >I would >argue, though, that back in the 1960s and 1970s people weren't so >worried that this whole IP thing is getting out of control. Today, >when you have a situation where doctors can actually patent surgical >techniques and then sue other doctors for using those techniques to >treat patients, many people feel emboldened to take a much more >aggressive stance against intellectual property in general. What we have is a war that is escalating on BOTH sides. Many people who never worried about protecting their intellectual property are now under siege by the followers of Stallman and feel that they have to take extreme measures. Again, we need to broker a new and lasting peace. But Stallman, Barlow, and others are selfishly trying to instigate, and then take advantage of, a war. Hence the Richard III analogy. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11: 0:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (yowie.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACA9837B718 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:00:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s337240@student.uq.edu.au) Received: from student.uq.edu.au (s337240@student.uq.edu.au [130.102.87.136]) by yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA07991; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 04:59:36 +1000 (GMT+1000) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 04:59:36 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: Trent Waddington To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > What we have is a war that is escalating on BOTH sides. Many people who > never worried about protecting their intellectual property are now > under siege by the followers of Stallman and feel that they have to > take extreme measures. Again, we need to broker a new and lasting peace. > But Stallman, Barlow, and others are selfishly trying to instigate, and > then take advantage of, a war. Hence the Richard III analogy. A war of words. A war of legal strategy. A war of corporate politics. But a war of blood and killing ala Richard III, let's try to keep some perspective here. The "balance" you are talking about can also be refered to as ignorance and self denial. Trent To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11: 0:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C595937B71A for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:00:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f25J0Ir24528 ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:00:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA03001 ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:00:18 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:00:18 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Trent Waddington , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Trent Waddington , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 11:47:25AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What we have is a war that is escalating on BOTH sides. Many people who > never worried about protecting their intellectual property are now > under siege by the followers of Stallman and feel that they have to > take extreme measures. Again, we need to broker a new and lasting peace. > But Stallman, Barlow, and others are selfishly trying to instigate, and > then take advantage of, a war. Hence the Richard III analogy. Have you ever thought that, if *you* want to broker peace, the way to do it is not to spew hate messages about the GNU camp at every forum you see? I've been reading your posts on this list, and occasionally on some other sites, and you haven't been model of moderation or an example-setter of bridge-building -- to the extent that you've irritated a lot of people who would in fact agree with a lot of what you say. For instance, I think DES is not going to see this, though he's in the cc's above. It's a bit like Tom Lehrer's introduction to one of his songs: "I'm sure you all agree that we ought to love one another, and I know there are people out there who do not love their fellow human beings, and I *hate* people like that!" Whoever manages to take the IP thing forward in a constructive way, and satisfy a large number of factions of both sides, will certainly earn the gratitude of many people. But somehow I don't think it will be someone with your attitude. Also, the issues are not confined to software, and the people involved in some of the most important current debates have probably never heard of either Richard Stallman or John Perry Barlow. See, for example, these two recent news articles: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_1202000/1202402.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1151000/1151437.stm -Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11:12: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bigglesworth.mail.be.easynet.net (bigglesworth.mail.be.easynet.net [212.100.160.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368EC37B718 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:12:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from as_hombert@attglobal.net) Received: from 213-193-168-109.adsl.easynet.be ([213.193.168.109] helo=ash) by bigglesworth.mail.be.easynet.net with smtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14a0Ol-0004fm-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:11:59 +0100 From: Anne-Sophie Hombert To: X-Mailer: Poco 2.11 (777) - Registered Version Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:11:56 +0100 X-URL: Subject: Error message Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I got this... however the message got posted to questions...= Never saw that before. What does it mean? Thanks, Anne -------------------------------------------------- = From: =A0 =A0 =A0 To: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 >From Postmaster@m018.com 5 Mar 2001 14:20:22 +0900 Received: from m018.com ([210.112.11.138]) =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0by prserv.net (in1) with ESMTP =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0id <2001030505280410104420use>; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 05:28:05= +0000 Date: 5 Mar 2001 14:20:22 +0900 Message-ID: <010552220050531WEBMAIL2@m018.com> X-Account: ATT Status: U Subject: Nondeliverable mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------Transcript of session follows ------- freebsd-questions@freebsd.org 450 Client host rejected: cannot find your hostname,= [210.112.11.138] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11:20:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1438B37B719 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:20:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA6A01; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:25:37 -0800 Message-ID: <3AA3E70C.B822C87F@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:20:44 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Have you ever thought that, if *you* want to broker peace, the way to > do it is not to spew hate messages about the GNU camp at every forum > you see? Ignoring the fact that GNU always starts these battles (when one side in every playground brawl always involves the same party it's easy to ascertain the bully), there is ample justification for the BSD camp to lose their temper now and again. The only reason I vent at the GNU camp is because they are hypocrites. It doesn't matter who they are, RMS, BC or GW, I always rail at two-faced scoundrels. By his own definitions, the BSD license is "freer" than Mr. Stallman's own GNU licenses. He tells us that copyright is evil and then encourages us to use an copyright based license. And don't forget that this thread was started because he encouraged someone to bury the code, in direct opposition to all of his public statements. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11:37:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rapier.smartspace.co.za (rapier.smartspace.co.za [66.8.25.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F2F7137B718 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:37:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@rapier.smartspace.co.za) Received: (qmail 8165 invoked by uid 1001); 5 Mar 2001 19:36:52 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 21:36:52 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: David Johnson Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010305213651.A7364@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <3AA3E70C.B822C87F@acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3AA3E70C.B822C87F@acuson.com>; from djohnson@acuson.com on Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 11:20:44AM -0800 Organization: Building Intelligence X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon 2001-03-05 (11:20), David Johnson wrote: > > Have you ever thought that, if *you* want to broker peace, the way to > > do it is not to spew hate messages about the GNU camp at every forum > > you see? > > Ignoring the fact that GNU always starts these battles Ah, I see you haven't met my associate Brett Glass. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11:39:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C60C37B718 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:39:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f25Jd5r28034 ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:39:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA04508 ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:39:05 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:39:05 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010305203905.F80474@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Neil Blakey-Milner , David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <3AA3E70C.B822C87F@acuson.com> <20010305213651.A7364@rapier.smartspace.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010305213651.A7364@rapier.smartspace.co.za>; from nbm@mithrandr.moria.org on Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 09:36:52PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Neil Blakey-Milner said on Mar 5, 2001 at 21:36:52: > On Mon 2001-03-05 (11:20), David Johnson wrote: > > > Have you ever thought that, if *you* want to broker peace, the way to > > > do it is not to spew hate messages about the GNU camp at every forum > > > you see? > > > > Ignoring the fact that GNU always starts these battles > > Ah, I see you haven't met my associate Brett Glass. Actually, I sent my mail in reply to Brett Glass, and apparently he's on your killfile too... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11:41:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BE2437B719 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:41:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25170; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:40:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123646.00d27e90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:39:44 -0700 To: Trent Waddington From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:59 AM 3/5/2001, Trent Waddington wrote: >A war of words. A war of legal strategy. A war of corporate politics. >But a war of blood and killing ala Richard III, let's try to keep some >perspective here. I am. The war may be virtual, but in other respects it is as much a "take no prisoners" war as a physical one. > The "balance" you are talking about can also be refered >to as ignorance and self denial. Not true at all. A failure to achieve balance -- and, hence, unnecessary casualties -- will result when people ignorantly follow demagogues into the fray. The Crusades also come to mind as an example of a situation where mass action, incited by the selfish, caused millions of innocents to come to harm. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11:44:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from itouch.co.nz (itouch.co.nz [203.99.66.188]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D81C37B71B for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:44:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonc@itouch.co.nz) Received: (from jonc@localhost) by itouch.co.nz (8.11.2/8.11.1) id f25Ji0G14179; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 08:44:00 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from jonc) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 08:44:00 +1300 From: Jonathan Chen To: Anne-Sophie Hombert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Error message Message-ID: <20010306084400.C13831@itouchnz.itouch> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from as_hombert@attglobal.net on Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 08:11:56PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 08:11:56PM +0100, Anne-Sophie Hombert wrote: > Hi, > > I got this... however the message got posted to questions... Never saw that before. What does it mean? > Means that somebody on the list has a misconfigured mail-server. I get that for every email sent to freebsd-questions. -- Jonathan Chen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- char *p="char *p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11:44:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (yowie.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C82B37B718 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:44:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s337240@student.uq.edu.au) Received: from student.uq.edu.au (s337240@student.uq.edu.au [130.102.87.136]) by yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA09877; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 05:43:53 +1000 (GMT+1000) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 05:43:53 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: Trent Waddington To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123646.00d27e90@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm not qualified to discuss the relevance of the Crusades to interlectual property law. On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:59 AM 3/5/2001, Trent Waddington wrote: > > >A war of words. A war of legal strategy. A war of corporate politics. > >But a war of blood and killing ala Richard III, let's try to keep some > >perspective here. > > I am. The war may be virtual, but in other respects it is as much a > "take no prisoners" war as a physical one. > > > The "balance" you are talking about can also be refered > >to as ignorance and self denial. > > Not true at all. A failure to achieve balance -- and, hence, > unnecessary casualties -- will result when people ignorantly follow > demagogues into the fray. The Crusades also come to mind as an example > of a situation where mass action, incited by the selfish, caused > millions of innocents to come to harm. > > --Brett > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11:47:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bigglesworth.mail.be.easynet.net (bigglesworth.mail.be.easynet.net [212.100.160.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A281537B71B for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:47:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from as_hombert@attglobal.net) Received: from 213-193-168-109.adsl.easynet.be ([213.193.168.109] helo=ash) by bigglesworth.mail.be.easynet.net with smtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14a0ww-00052E-00; Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:47:18 +0100 From: Anne-Sophie Hombert To: Cc: X-Mailer: Poco 2.11 (777) - Registered Version Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:47:15 +0100 X-URL: In-Reply-To: <20010306084400.C13831@itouchnz.itouch> Subject: Re: Error message Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks... I was afraid it came from me Anne >Means that somebody on the list has a misconfigured mail-server.= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11:48:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACAAF37B719 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:48:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25225; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:46:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:46:16 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Trent Waddington , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:00 PM 3/5/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Have you ever thought that, if *you* want to broker peace, the way to >do it is not to spew hate messages about the GNU camp at every forum >you see? I do no such thing, and for you to say so is disingenuous. My messages are not in any way "hate messages." Rather, they attempt to expose the hatefulness of the "GNU camp" (as you call it) and encourage people not to go along with its extreme and militant positions. These include those of Stallman, Barlow, and others who would instigate a battle rather than broker a peace. By mischaracterizing my efforts, you do nothing but help the instigators. > See, for example, these two recent news >articles: > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_1202000/1202402.stm >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1151000/1151437.stm These articles concern patents, not copyrights. Patents are an entirely different form of intellectual property from copyrighted works. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11:49:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E45937B719 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:49:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25261; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:48:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305124655.04606930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:48:26 -0700 To: Neil Blakey-Milner , David Johnson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010305213651.A7364@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: <3AA3E70C.B822C87F@acuson.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <3AA3E70C.B822C87F@acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:36 PM 3/5/2001, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: >> Ignoring the fact that GNU always starts these battles > >Ah, I see you haven't met my associate Brett Glass. One of the problems with attempting to broker peace is that sometimes you get shot at by those who think they could benefit from the chaos of war. I don't advocate conflict, but I do strongly advocate opposition to the warlike GNU agenda, which causes conflict. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11:50:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89E137B719 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:50:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f25JoVr28833 ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:50:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA05030 ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:50:30 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:50:30 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Trent Waddington , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Trent Waddington , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 12:46:16PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > See, for example, these two recent news > >articles: > > > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_1202000/1202402.stm > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1151000/1151437.stm > > These articles concern patents, not copyrights. Patents are an entirely > different form of intellectual property from copyrighted works. But the fact that the proponents of restrictive laws like to club everything together as "intellectual property" speaks for itself. It's all part of the same game, driven by the same multinationals. Why would law meant to benefit "authors and inventors" now retain copyrights for up to 95 years? Who's being benefited? People like the Disney company, that's who, certainly not old Walt who's dead and gone years ago. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11:53:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 959A637B71B for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:53:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25319; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:52:50 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125043.00cfd680@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:52:29 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Neil Blakey-Milner From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010305203905.F80474@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010305213651.A7364@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <3AA3E70C.B822C87F@acuson.com> <20010305213651.A7364@rapier.smartspace.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:39 PM 3/5/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Actually, I sent my mail in reply to Brett Glass, and apparently >he's on your killfile too... "Killfile?" Hmmm.... Interesting choice of terms, given the discussion at hand. Could it be that people who (for some reason) want to see war are attempting (metaphorically, at any rate) to kill the messenger who is trying to preach peace? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11:54:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rapier.smartspace.co.za (rapier.smartspace.co.za [66.8.25.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 39A8137B719 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:54:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@rapier.smartspace.co.za) Received: (qmail 9322 invoked by uid 1001); 5 Mar 2001 19:53:58 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 21:53:58 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Brett Glass Cc: David Johnson , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010305215358.A9107@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <3AA3E70C.B822C87F@acuson.com> <20010305213651.A7364@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305124655.04606930@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305124655.04606930@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 12:48:26PM -0700 Organization: Building Intelligence X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon 2001-03-05 (12:48), Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:36 PM 3/5/2001, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > > >> Ignoring the fact that GNU always starts these battles > > > >Ah, I see you haven't met my associate Brett Glass. > > One of the problems with attempting to broker peace is that > sometimes you get shot at by those who think they could > benefit from the chaos of war. I don't advocate conflict, > but I do strongly advocate opposition to the warlike > GNU agenda, which causes conflict. Heh, I rest my case. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11:56:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (yowie.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C570B37B71C for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:56:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s337240@student.uq.edu.au) Received: from student.uq.edu.au (s337240@student.uq.edu.au [130.102.87.136]) by yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA05608; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 05:55:56 +1000 (GMT+1000) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 05:55:56 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: Trent Waddington To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have to agree. Patent, copyright, it's all "Intellectual property", that is to say "ideas have worth and can be owned and that ownership can be bought and sold, protected and contracted for". Which is baloney. On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > But the fact that the proponents of restrictive laws like to club > everything together as "intellectual property" speaks for itself. > > It's all part of the same game, driven by the same multinationals. > Why would law meant to benefit "authors and inventors" now retain > copyrights for up to 95 years? Who's being benefited? People like > the Disney company, that's who, certainly not old Walt who's dead and > gone years ago. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11:57:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5950437B719 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:57:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f25JvbI38988; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 08:57:38 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200103051957.f25JvbI38988@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Anne-Sophie Hombert Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 08:57:37 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: Re: Error message Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 5 Mar 2001, at 20:11, Anne-Sophie Hombert wrote: > Hi, > > I got this... however the message got posted to questions... Never saw t= hat > before. What does it mean? > > Thanks, > > Anne > -------------------------------------------------- = > From: =A0 =A0 =A0 To: =A0 =A0 =A0 I've been getting similar message from that postmaster. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 11:58:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D1A937B71A for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:58:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25386; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:57:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:56:01 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Trent Waddington , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:50 PM 3/5/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >But the fact that the proponents of restrictive laws like to club >everything together as "intellectual property" speaks for itself. It's a handy way of creating confusion. (Which, again, goes back to the Richard III analogy.) >It's all part of the same game, driven by the same multinationals. >Why would law meant to benefit "authors and inventors" now retain >copyrights for up to 95 years? Because we have war rather than balance. And those on one side, having money, have been able to get ahead in the "tug of war" by buying politicians. Again, we see escalation rather than a beneficial compromise. I recommend Lawrence Lessig's book "Code," which discusses this issue, and also the new book by David Farber's wife. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 12: 4:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (yowie.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05D4837B718 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:04:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s337240@student.uq.edu.au) Received: from student.uq.edu.au (s337240@student.uq.edu.au [130.102.87.136]) by yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA17735; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 06:04:13 +1000 (GMT+1000) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 06:04:13 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: Trent Waddington To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org fine. Let's say I buy you're theory of "balance", here's an essay by RMS calling for a new copyright proposal. Not for the outright abolishment of copyright, just simply for a new "copyright deal". That sounds like balance to me. Read the whole essay, it may help you refine your opinion on this "balance" thing. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/reevaluating-copyright.html On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > Because we have war rather than balance. And those on one side, having > money, have been able to get ahead in the "tug of war" by buying > politicians. Again, we see escalation rather than a beneficial > compromise. I recommend Lawrence Lessig's book "Code," which discusses > this issue, and also the new book by David Farber's wife. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 12:20:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E895937B718 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:20:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vcardona@home.com) Received: from marx.marvic.chum ([24.17.229.11]) by femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010305202013.VWSR811.femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com@marx.marvic.chum> for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:20:13 -0800 Received: (from vcardona@localhost) by marx.marvic.chum (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f25KL8n17325 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:21:08 -0600 Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:21:08 -0600 From: "Victor R. Cardona" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.12i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 12:56:01PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 12:56:01PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Because we have war rather than balance. And those on one side, having > money, have been able to get ahead in the "tug of war" by buying > politicians. Again, we see escalation rather than a beneficial > compromise. I recommend Lawrence Lessig's book "Code," which discusses > this issue, and also the new book by David Farber's wife. When has there ever been compromise? The length of copyright has slowly been extended throughout the last ninety years or so. This predates GNU/Stallman and others. What we are seeing today is just the continuation of the past. A frightening continuation if you ask me. - v -- Victor R. Cardona vcardona@home.com "Behold the keyboard of Kahless, the greatest Klingon code warrior that ever lived!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 12:21:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCE0D37B71A for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:21:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f25KKbo21497; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 21:20:37 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3AA3E70C.B822C87F@acuson.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <3AA3E70C.B822C87F@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 21:10:08 +0100 To: David Johnson , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:20 AM -0800 3/5/01, David Johnson wrote: > By his own definitions, the BSD license is "freer" > than Mr. Stallman's own GNU licenses. He tells us that copyright is evil > and then encourages us to use an copyright based license. Not the way he seems to define freedom. He contrasts the "Open Source" movement with the "Free Software" movement, by saying that the former allows itself to co-exist in a common market in conjunction with commercial closed-source software, whereas the latter is working to actively eliminate all possibility of commercial closed-source software and to supplant it with *only* so-called "Free Software" (which cannot be taken closed-source). Therefore, the BSD license is more "open" than the GNU license, but by his terms, it is not more "free". -- ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 12:46:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5297937B718 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:46:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA28CF; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:51:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3AA3FB32.941EFF66@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:46:42 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <3AA3E70C.B822C87F@acuson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > He contrasts the "Open Source" movement with the "Free Software" > movement, by saying that the former allows itself to co-exist in a > common market in conjunction with commercial closed-source software, > whereas the latter is working to actively eliminate all possibility > of commercial closed-source software and to supplant it with *only* > so-called "Free Software" (which cannot be taken closed-source). I was referring to his definition of Free Software . If this article was your only introduction to Free Software, and did not know beforehand which licenses he prefered, you would have to conclude by the basis of this article that the BSD license is more free than the GPL. The BSD license is indeed, and without argument by RMS, a Free Software license. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 12:49:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C532A37B719 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:49:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id OAA127041422 Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:44:32 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA44328; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:49:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:49:10 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Trent Waddington , Brett Glass , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010305124910.A44291@darkstar.gte.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <20010304130501.A32152@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20010304130501.A32152@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:05:01PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just recently heard a statement that helped me understand why the Grateful Dead allowed taping at their concerts. The statement went something like "At the end of the day, after the performance was over, Jerry went home from work like anyone else." Apparently, the band made a living "performing" their work. ... As the costs of publishing go down, there are two extremes on the range of options. One extreme is that distribution will be free, aside from the cost of the media and process. The other extreme, is that artificial constraints will be enforced, to make the costs as high as the market will bear. Its all about control. [RC] On Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:05:01PM +0100, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Trent Waddington said on Mar 4, 2001 at 06:40:14: > > On Sat, 3 Mar 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > Not true! Barlow wasn't involved in computer technology at all until he > > > got on the Well and then went to the Hackers' Conference in 1985. By then, > > > Stallman was already ranting about GNU. Barlow picked up Stallman's views > > > about copyright at that time. (It's also where he met Mitch Kapor.) I > > > know; I was an organizer of the conference. > > > > Dude, the Grateful Dead were popularising tape trading before they were > > popular, circa 1973. > > Well, they didn't permit "bootlegging" and they allowed tape trading > only when no money changed hands -- I think that's the policy of the > surviving members even today. It's not an anti-copyright stance, imo: > it's just a "lets be friendly to the fans" thing, with perhaps the > added rationale that people who hear your music in other ways first > are more likely to buy your albums later. They do not permit free > copying of their released albums, even on a non-profit basis. > > Nevertheless, I'm not convinced by the argument that Barlow, and > everyone else who disagrees with present-day copyright laws, has been > somehow brainwashed by Stallman. I don't think he's *that* > influential, and I don't think the issues are so trivial that he's the > only one interested in raising them. > > R > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 14: 1:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from evil.blunt.yi.org (ip-216-23-55-190.adsl.one.net [216.23.55.190]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1C6E37B718; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:01:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cokane@evil.blunt.yi.org) Received: (from cokane@localhost) by evil.blunt.yi.org (8.11.3/8.11.2) id f25MFoV32902; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:15:50 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cokane) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:15:50 -0500 From: Coleman Kane To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: cokane@FreeBSD.ORG, otterr@telocity.com, mvh@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Version Numbering Message-ID: <20010305171550.A32883@cokane.yi.org> References: <20010304190147.1F5C0E6B0A@netcom1.netcom.com> <000601c0a4e1$1365a800$1401a8c0@zoso> <20010304231423.B3870@cokane.yi.org> <20010305021214P.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010305021214P.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@osd.bsdi.com on Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 02:12:14AM -0800 X-Vim: vim:tw=70:ts=4:sw=4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yeah, that would be optimal. Thanks. Jordan Hubbard had the audacity to say: > > Actually, it belongs on -chat. Follow-ups set accordingly. > > - Jordan > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 15:41:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wgate.com (mail.wgate.com [38.219.83.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DA6D37B718 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:41:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rjesup@wgate.com) Received: from jesup.eng.tvol.net ([10.32.2.26]) by mail.wgate.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id 152C8SNV; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:41:52 -0500 Reply-To: Randell Jesup To: Wes Peters Cc: Randell Jesup , Terry Lambert , Matt Dillon , Alfred Perlstein , josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND References: <200102200122.SAA04466@usr05.primenet.com> <3A934507.A0645CF3@softweyr.com> From: Randell Jesup Date: 05 Mar 2001 18:41:39 -0500 In-Reply-To: Wes Peters's message of "Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:33:11 -0700" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moved from -arch to -chat. Wes Peters writes: >Randell Jesup wrote: >> As an aside, we ran into this in AmigaDos as well. We cached all >> of our preferences (configuration) data in ramdisk files (which hardly took >> any space, since there was no block overhead, and guaranteed fast access). >> I then added notification commands to the filesystem, so applications could >> find out when the configuration changed. For fixed-size (binary) config >> files, you could simply make a single read, which became a ram-to-ram copy >> without very much overhead. For variable-sized files, a simple exclusive >> open and then read would do. Since these were all ram-to-ram copies, and >> the overhead on the Amiga of message passing and Open()/Read() was small, >> it worked well. >> >> >A registry-like configuration store, which was cached by the OS, >> >and was referenced directly each time the data was needed, instead >> >of allowing the programs to cache data which might change would >> >really be the best approach, >> >> Fetching the data out of a kernel service on each access would be >> (potentially) a pretty major hit, performance-wise. Some form of >> registration of interest in the data would be better. Either something >> like the Amiga (get a signal/message/callback/whatever when it changes, >> then request the new information), or something that passes the >> notification along with the new data. >> >> The downside is that to change the data, you must also go through >> this procedure. The nice thing about the Amiga notification method was >> that you could use any tool to modify a preference (configuration option) - >> text editors, fancy GUI editors, copy (cp), etc. You could still provide >> this behavior if you made this configuration cache also act as a virtual >> FS, so you could call up (say) /config/hostname into vi, change it, then >> just save it. Or just copy another file over the existing one, etc. This >> kindof turns vipw on it's head. >> >> An alternative would be to leave everything in normal files, >> extend the vipw schema to lock arbitrary files (configedit), and then hook >> it into a notification method as per above. This loses the ability to use >> something like cp, but it allows arbitrary text editors, and hooks can be >> given to allow GUI programs to interact with a config file as well. >> >We in the unix world have a well-founded aversion to storing configuration >information in binary data stores that can't be accessed via ed(1) when >the system is in single-user mode. If we wanted to stuff all the system >configuration into such a black hole, we could've done it with DBM data- >bases more than a decade ago, quite easily. As someone said, vipw is a good counterexample. The above schemes do allow you to use ED (if you like) to edit configuration files. In one case it's totally free (even cp will work), in the other you have to use some sort of vipw thing to invoke the editor and make sure that the file is notified as changed (or integrate with the editor in some automatic or semi-automatic way). -- Randell Jesup, Worldgate Communications, ex-Scala, ex-Amiga OS team ('88-94) rjesup@wgate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 5 16:19: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3234337B718 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:19:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 14262 invoked by uid 100); 6 Mar 2001 00:18:59 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15012.11507.801736.502035@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:18:59 -0600 To: Randell Jesup Cc: Wes Peters , Terry Lambert , Matt Dillon , Alfred Perlstein , josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND In-Reply-To: References: <200102200122.SAA04466@usr05.primenet.com> <3A934507.A0645CF3@softweyr.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Randell Jesup types: > Moved from -arch to -chat. > Wes Peters writes: > >We in the unix world have a well-founded aversion to storing configuration > >information in binary data stores that can't be accessed via ed(1) when > >the system is in single-user mode. If we wanted to stuff all the system > >configuration into such a black hole, we could've done it with DBM data- > >bases more than a decade ago, quite easily. Oddly enough, this exact suggestion - stuff all the configuration information in a DBM - came up on a private list I'm no not long ago. The suggestion came from someone very sharp, the goal being to focus more talent on making the DBM fast. The problem Wes mentioned prett much killed it at that point. > As someone said, vipw is a good counterexample. > The above schemes do allow you to use ED (if you like) to edit > configuration files. In one case it's totally free (even cp will work), in > the other you have to use some sort of vipw thing to invoke the editor and > make sure that the file is notified as changed (or integrate with the > editor in some automatic or semi-automatic way). The critical issue isn't being able to use ed per se, it's working in single user mode, with no file systems mounted and no daemons running. How do your schemes deal with that requirement? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 0:13:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D2137B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 00:13:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA02206; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 01:11:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306010616.046d6320@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 01:11:40 -0700 To: Trent Waddington From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:04 PM 3/5/2001, Trent Waddington wrote: >fine. Let's say I buy you're theory of "balance", here's an essay by RMS >calling for a new copyright proposal. Not for the outright abolishment of >copyright, just simply for a new "copyright deal". Not true at all. In that essay, Stallman says that if users want to do ANYTHING that is prohibited by copyright laws, the prohiibition should be removed. This would amount to abolishing copyright altogether, which is what Stallman has always stated that he wants. This is no compromise. It is the equivalent of saying, "Sure, we'll compromise, and here are our terms: unconditional surrender." This is "compromise" a la Yasser Arafat. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 0:13:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF7037B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 00:13:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA02219; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 01:13:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011216.045fbaf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 01:13:18 -0700 To: Brad Knowles , David Johnson , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3AA3E70C.B822C87F@acuson.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <3AA3E70C.B822C87F@acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:10 PM 3/5/2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > Therefore, the BSD license is more "open" than the GNU license, but by his terms, it is not more "free". In other words, freedom is slavery. It's interesting how Orwellian Stallman's rhetoric sounds. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 0:14:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E61A437B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 00:14:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA02237; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 01:14:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 01:14:40 -0700 To: "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:21 PM 3/5/2001, Victor R. Cardona wrote: >When has there ever been compromise? "Fair use" has always been a compromise. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 0:18:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA17437B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 00:18:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA02254; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 01:17:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011539.045faaa0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 01:17:06 -0700 To: Robert Clark , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Trent Waddington , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010305124910.A44291@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010304130501.A32152@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <20010304130501.A32152@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:49 PM 3/5/2001, Robert Clark wrote: >I just recently heard a statement that helped me understand >why the Grateful Dead allowed taping at their concerts. > >The statement went something like "At the end of the day, >after the performance was over, Jerry went home from work >like anyone else." > >Apparently, the band made a living "performing" their work. This was only one of their many revenue streams. They enjoyed large royalties from T-shirts, posters, and other regalia, as well as from their published albums. While their concerts were profitable, Bill Graham and other promoters made most of the money. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 0:25:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEB7837B71A for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 00:25:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14aCvI-0000QX-00; Tue, 06 Mar 2001 01:34:24 -0700 Message-ID: <3AA4A110.5245FCD4@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 01:34:24 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Randell Jesup , Terry Lambert , Matt Dillon , Alfred Perlstein , josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND References: <200102200122.SAA04466@usr05.primenet.com> <3A934507.A0645CF3@softweyr.com> <15012.11507.801736.502035@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > > Randell Jesup types: > > Moved from -arch to -chat. > > Wes Peters writes: > > >We in the unix world have a well-founded aversion to storing configuration > > >information in binary data stores that can't be accessed via ed(1) when > > >the system is in single-user mode. If we wanted to stuff all the system > > >configuration into such a black hole, we could've done it with DBM data- > > >bases more than a decade ago, quite easily. > > Oddly enough, this exact suggestion - stuff all the configuration > information in a DBM - came up on a private list I'm no not long > ago. The suggestion came from someone very sharp, the goal being to > focus more talent on making the DBM fast. The problem Wes mentioned > prett much killed it at that point. > > > As someone said, vipw is a good counterexample. > > The above schemes do allow you to use ED (if you like) to edit > > configuration files. In one case it's totally free (even cp will work), in > > the other you have to use some sort of vipw thing to invoke the editor and > > make sure that the file is notified as changed (or integrate with the > > editor in some automatic or semi-automatic way). > > The critical issue isn't being able to use ed per se, it's working in > single user mode, with no file systems mounted and no daemons > running. How do your schemes deal with that requirement? Text-to-dbm converters still work fine in single user mode, as long as they're robust to handle not having a daemon to talk to. I even have one application that rips configuration information out of a PgSQL database and stuff it into a DBM database, on system startup and whenever the PgSQL table gets modified. Ick. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 0:52:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7AF437B71A for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 00:52:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f268q4o01298; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:52:04 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <200102200122.SAA04466@usr05.primenet.com> <3A934507.A0645CF3@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:51:50 +0100 To: Randell Jesup , Wes Peters From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND Cc: Randell Jesup , Terry Lambert , Matt Dillon , Alfred Perlstein , josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:41 PM -0500 3/5/01, Randell Jesup wrote: >> We in the unix world have a well-founded aversion to storing configuration >> information in binary data stores that can't be accessed via ed(1) when >> the system is in single-user mode. If we wanted to stuff all the system >> configuration into such a black hole, we could've done it with DBM data- >> bases more than a decade ago, quite easily. IIRC, the cool thing about using Berkeley db (specifically, the "Berkeley DB Transactional Data Store", see ) instead of dbm or anything else that is freely available, is that virtually all the information recorded in the database is in a format that is relatively easily recoverable with tools that would be suitable for use in single-user mode. Now, BINDv9 includes hooks to link to a different database back-end than the one provided out-of-the-box, but these tools are limited in scope and capabilities at the moment. My understanding is that they do not provide the level of performance or reliability that is currently available with the built-in database methods, but that this is something that will be improved in the near future. Of course, if you were to tie BIND into the "Berkeley DB Transactional Data Store", you should have the best of both worlds, and the best performance as well. Of course, you could also tie BINDv9 to other database implementations, such as PostgreSQL or MaxSQL, and get a measure of network scalability and high availability that you could not otherwise get by tying everything down to a single host. Now, when are we going to see anything from The Great and Mighty All Powerful Omniscient Dan that supports IPv6? Provides proper referrals when asked questions about zones outside of its purview? Need I go on? -- ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 2:40:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rapier.smartspace.co.za (rapier.smartspace.co.za [66.8.25.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 726FD37B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 02:40:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@rapier.smartspace.co.za) Received: (qmail 65301 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Mar 2001 10:39:53 -0000 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:39:53 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010306123953.B64838@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <3AA3E70C.B822C87F@acuson.com> <20010305213651.A7364@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <20010305203905.F80474@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010305203905.F80474@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 08:39:05PM +0100 Organization: Building Intelligence X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon 2001-03-05 (20:39), Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Ah, I see you haven't met my associate Brett Glass. > > Actually, I sent my mail in reply to Brett Glass, and apparently > he's on your killfile too... Nope. It was a rather obscure attempt at humour. Specifically, most GNU advocates I know claim that the BSD zealots always start it. A name often gets mentioned. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 6: 9:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail17.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail17.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FB8C37B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 06:09:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vcardona@home.com) Received: from marx.marvic.chum ([24.17.229.11]) by femail17.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010306140926.FJZE29411.femail17.sdc1.sfba.home.com@marx.marvic.chum> for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 06:09:26 -0800 Received: (from vcardona@localhost) by marx.marvic.chum (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f26EAPb22188 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 08:10:25 -0600 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 08:10:25 -0600 From: "Victor R. Cardona" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.12i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:14:40AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:14:40AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > "Fair use" has always been a compromise. > > --Brett It won't be for long if copyright owners have their way. Furthermore, copyrights and patents exist to promote the sciences and arts. "Fair use" serves as a mechanism for doing just that. The sciences and arts cannot be promoted, and development cannot occur if information is guarded to closely. "Fair use" merely provides controlled access to information which would otherwise be proprietary throughout its useful lifetime. I understand why you think it is a compromise. However, "fair use" is only a compromise if you look at it from a copyright owner's point of view. - v -- Victor R. Cardona vcardona@home.com "Behold the keyboard of Kahless, the greatest Klingon code warrior that ever lived!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 8: 1:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from david.siemens.de (david.siemens.de [192.35.17.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90E4D37B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 08:01:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de (at relayer david.siemens.de) Received: from mail1.siemens.de (mail1.siemens.de [139.23.33.14]) by david.siemens.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f26G1Kt28771 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:01:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from curry.mchp.siemens.de (curry.mchp.siemens.de [139.25.42.7]) by mail1.siemens.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f26G1Ji23651 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:01:19 +0100 (MET) Received: (from localhost) by curry.mchp.siemens.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f26G1JS97284 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:01:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:01:19 +0100 From: Andre Albsmeier To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: PTR record for ftp.freesoftware.com ?!? Message-ID: <20010306170119.A19254@curry.mchp.siemens.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Echelon: BND CIA NSA Mossad KGB MI6 IRA detonator nuclear assault strike Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Are there others as well who can't resolve ftp.freebsd.org's PTR record? andre:~>host ftp.freebsd.org ftp.freebsd.org is a nickname for ftp.freesoftware.com ftp.freesoftware.com has address 216.66.64.162 andre:~>host -t ptr 216.66.64.162 Host not found, try again. Next try: andre:~>dig -x 216.66.64.162 ; <<>> DiG 8.3 <<>> -x ;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch ;; got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 4 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2 ;; QUERY SECTION: ;; 162.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa, type = ANY, class = IN ;; ANSWER SECTION: 162.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. 4h11m42s IN CNAME 162.160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: 64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. 5d4h31m40s IN NS STORM.LIGHTNING.NET. 64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. 5d4h31m40s IN NS THUNDER.LIGHTNING.NET. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: STORM.LIGHTNING.NET. 1d4h11m19s IN A 209.51.180.102 THUNDER.LIGHTNING.NET. 1d4h11m19s IN A 209.51.160.2 Trying further: andre:~>dig 160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. ns ; <<>> DiG 8.3 <<>> 160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. ns ;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch ;; got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 4 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 2, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 1 ;; QUERY SECTION: ;; 160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa, type = NS, class = IN ;; ANSWER SECTION: 160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. 22h43m44s IN NS who2.wccdrom.com. 160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. 22h43m44s IN NS who.wccdrom.com. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: who.wccdrom.com. 55m32s IN A 204.216.27.3 There isn't even an A record for who2.wccdrom.com... -Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 8:33:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F352337B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 08:33:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05885; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:32:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 09:32:49 -0700 To: "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:10 AM 3/6/2001, Victor R. Cardona wrote: >It won't be for long if copyright owners have their way. Or if the likes of Stallman have their way! The reason why content distributors are lobbying to limit or eliminate fair use is that their opponents are going to the other extreme. This is the tragedy of having a war rather than adjusting the old balance to account for new developments. The old compromise goes out the window as soon as there's a declaration of war. From that point on, it's no holds barred. Fair use has always been a compromise. It allows some uses, and some enjoyment of the material, that authors really should be paid for but aren't. The authors are willing to forego that payment it because it's infeasible (and ridiculously invasive) to enforce copyright at that level. However, they're willing to give up that revenue so long as there's a good guarantee of enforcement of their rights in other areas. This is reasonable and fair. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 8:34:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A28537B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 08:34:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05906; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:34:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306093331.00c02600@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 09:34:07 -0700 To: Neil Blakey-Milner , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <20010306123953.B64838@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: <20010305203905.F80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <3AA3E70C.B822C87F@acuson.com> <20010305213651.A7364@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <20010305203905.F80474@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:39 AM 3/6/2001, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: >Nope. It was a rather obscure attempt at humour. Specifically, most >GNU advocates I know claim that the BSD zealots always start it. A name >often gets mentioned. Tom Christiansen? ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 8:46:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33D5337B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 08:46:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f26GkJr35994 ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:46:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA54134 ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:46:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:46:19 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 09:32:49AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >It won't be for long if copyright owners have their way. > > Or if the likes of Stallman have their way! > > The reason why content distributors are lobbying to limit > or eliminate fair use is that their opponents are going to > the other extreme. That's balls. I won't suggest you don't know what you're talking about, because you obviously do, it's just that you're willing to distort anything to suit your own hate-Richard-Stallman agenda. Richard Stallman woke up to all this in 1984 or so. The trends towards extending copyrights, patents, etc started much earlier -- I think by the middle of the 20th century copyright already lasted 50 years, where it had started off as around 20. Today the upper limit is 95, and that will change before Mickey Mouse is due to come out of copyright again. The practice of companies purchasing copyrights from creators had been in existence for a long time. Patenting of ideas as opposed to inventions, in particular software patents, already existed in the US. I regard all of this as a severe distortion of the original ideas behind copyright/patent/any "intellectual property" protection. Stallman was not the cause of all this, but the consequence, and I wish there were more people sticking their necks out against it. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 9:46:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (yowie.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D0B37B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:46:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s337240@student.uq.edu.au) Received: from student.uq.edu.au (s337240@student.uq.edu.au [130.102.87.136]) by yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA10493; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 03:45:01 +1000 (GMT+1000) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 03:45:01 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: Trent Waddington To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306010616.046d6320@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I suggest you read the essay again. On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:04 PM 3/5/2001, Trent Waddington wrote: > > >fine. Let's say I buy you're theory of "balance", here's an essay by RMS > >calling for a new copyright proposal. Not for the outright abolishment of > >copyright, just simply for a new "copyright deal". > > Not true at all. In that essay, Stallman says that if users want to do > ANYTHING that is prohibited by copyright laws, the prohiibition should > be removed. This would amount to abolishing copyright altogether, which > is what Stallman has always stated that he wants. > > This is no compromise. It is the equivalent of saying, "Sure, we'll > compromise, and here are our terms: unconditional surrender." > > This is "compromise" a la Yasser Arafat. > > --Brett > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 10: 6:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D6837B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:06:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id MAA124273822 Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:01:36 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA45862; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:06:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:06:16 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Brett Glass Cc: Robert Clark , Rahul Siddharthan , Trent Waddington , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010306100616.B45802@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010304130501.A32152@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <20010304130501.A32152@lpt.ens.fr> <20010305124910.A44291@darkstar.gte.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011539.045faaa0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011539.045faaa0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:17:06AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:17:06AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:49 PM 3/5/2001, Robert Clark wrote: > > >I just recently heard a statement that helped me understand > >why the Grateful Dead allowed taping at their concerts. > > > >The statement went something like "At the end of the day, > >after the performance was over, Jerry went home from work > >like anyone else." > > > >Apparently, the band made a living "performing" their work. > > This was only one of their many revenue streams. They enjoyed > large royalties from T-shirts, posters, and other regalia, as > well as from their published albums. While their concerts were > profitable, Bill Graham and other promoters made most of the money. > > --Brett > And there is a message in there somewhere. Is Mr Stallman a promoter? In that analogy, would Linus be like Jerry? I don't begrudge RedHat or Walnut Creek their living. But their promotion isn't what I'm interested in. Someone who is financially responsible needs to setup as a nonprofit micropayment broker. In the same way that I can toss money into a street performers hat, it would be nice to be able to be able to contribute small amounts of money to small projects. As long as there is no alternative to the "feast or famine" ways of doing business, its going to a black and white world. Commercial companies grabbing everything they can, and open source refugees moving from inspiration to inspiration. (Dodging lawsuits all the while.) [RC] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 10:27:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (mail.dobox.com [208.187.122.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A72A37B71A for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:27:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14aMKs-00008O-00; Tue, 06 Mar 2001 11:37:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3AA52E66.425725FC@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 11:37:26 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Randell Jesup , Terry Lambert , Matt Dillon , Alfred Perlstein , josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND References: <200102200122.SAA04466@usr05.primenet.com> <3A934507.A0645CF3@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 6:41 PM -0500 3/5/01, Randell Jesup wrote: > > >> We in the unix world have a well-founded aversion to storing configuration > >> information in binary data stores that can't be accessed via ed(1) when > >> the system is in single-user mode. If we wanted to stuff all the system > >> configuration into such a black hole, we could've done it with DBM data- > >> bases more than a decade ago, quite easily. > > IIRC, the cool thing about using Berkeley db (specifically, the > "Berkeley DB Transactional Data Store", see > ) instead of dbm or > anything else that is freely available, is that virtually all the > information recorded in the database is in a format that is > relatively easily recoverable with tools that would be suitable for > use in single-user mode. Conversely, the really bad part about using SleepyCat's proprietary product is that it would force anyone making FreeBSD-based products to either rip it out of the system or pay SleepyCat money. I think we can pretty much forgo any further discussion on this point. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 10:38: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5246337B71A for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:38:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id MAA57791563 Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:31:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA45922; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:37:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:37:44 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Wes Peters Cc: Mike Meyer , Randell Jesup , Terry Lambert , Matt Dillon , Alfred Perlstein , josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND Message-ID: <20010306103744.D45802@darkstar.gte.net> References: <200102200122.SAA04466@usr05.primenet.com> <3A934507.A0645CF3@softweyr.com> <15012.11507.801736.502035@guru.mired.org> <3AA4A110.5245FCD4@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <3AA4A110.5245FCD4@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:34:24AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes, Have you seen any intelligent discussion of the whole concept of whether to keep config info in flat files, or to use a bindery/database? (Something I could go read up on.) I often wonder if a standardized api for storing and retreiving config info would be a benefit to *BSD. This whole subject seems like an unimaginably big can o worms. Even the staunchest advocates of the bindery/ registry don't get it completely right. (as far as I've seen anyway.) Thanks, [RC] On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:34:24AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > > > Randell Jesup types: > > > Moved from -arch to -chat. > > > Wes Peters writes: > > > >We in the unix world have a well-founded aversion to storing configuration > > > >information in binary data stores that can't be accessed via ed(1) when > > > >the system is in single-user mode. If we wanted to stuff all the system > > > >configuration into such a black hole, we could've done it with DBM data- > > > >bases more than a decade ago, quite easily. > > > > Oddly enough, this exact suggestion - stuff all the configuration > > information in a DBM - came up on a private list I'm no not long > > ago. The suggestion came from someone very sharp, the goal being to > > focus more talent on making the DBM fast. The problem Wes mentioned > > prett much killed it at that point. > > > > > As someone said, vipw is a good counterexample. > > > The above schemes do allow you to use ED (if you like) to edit > > > configuration files. In one case it's totally free (even cp will work), in > > > the other you have to use some sort of vipw thing to invoke the editor and > > > make sure that the file is notified as changed (or integrate with the > > > editor in some automatic or semi-automatic way). > > > > The critical issue isn't being able to use ed per se, it's working in > > single user mode, with no file systems mounted and no daemons > > running. How do your schemes deal with that requirement? > > Text-to-dbm converters still work fine in single user mode, as long as > they're robust to handle not having a daemon to talk to. I even have one > application that rips configuration information out of a PgSQL database > and stuff it into a DBM database, on system startup and whenever the PgSQL > table gets modified. > > Ick. > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 11: 5: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EAC1337B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:04:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 37132 invoked by uid 100); 6 Mar 2001 19:04:58 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15013.13530.718675.101675@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:04:58 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > Fair use has always been a compromise. It allows some > uses, and some enjoyment of the material, that authors > really should be paid for but aren't. The authors are > willing to forego that payment it because it's infeasible > (and ridiculously invasive) to enforce copyright at that > level. However, they're willing to give up that revenue > so long as there's a good guarantee of enforcement of > their rights in other areas. This is reasonable and fair. By the same token, copyright is a compromise. You allow the authors to get paid for some of the copies so they'll publish things they might not otherwise bother to publish. I like the "don't protect copyright if doing so is infeasible and ridiculously invasive" idea. That means the emergence of cheap computers not only makes digital media a reasonable distribution mechanism, but also a media that shouldn't be protected. The really amusing things is that publishers have pissed off one of the most ardent group of copyright supporters outside of authors and publishers. The have attacked not only fair use copies, but the ability to use our property as we see fit by lending it out, giving away the original, or even reading it aloud. If enacted, this would pretty much kill libraries, so librarians are really, really PO'd about it. See Marylaine Block's latest Ex Libris editorial, at . That's in spite of librarians recognizing and respecting intellectual property to the point that the Code of Ethics of the American Library Association lists it explicitly. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 11:12:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0297337B71B for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:12:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 37332 invoked by uid 100); 6 Mar 2001 19:12:30 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15013.13982.277528.57592@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:12:30 -0600 To: Robert Clark Cc: Wes Peters , Mike Meyer , Randell Jesup , Terry Lambert , Matt Dillon , Alfred Perlstein , josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND In-Reply-To: <20010306103744.D45802@darkstar.gte.net> References: <200102200122.SAA04466@usr05.primenet.com> <3A934507.A0645CF3@softweyr.com> <15012.11507.801736.502035@guru.mired.org> <3AA4A110.5245FCD4@softweyr.com> <20010306103744.D45802@darkstar.gte.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Clark types: > Have you seen any intelligent discussion of > the whole concept of whether to keep config info > in flat files, or to use a bindery/database? (Something > I could go read up on.) > I often wonder if a standardized api for > storing and retreiving config info would be a benefit > to *BSD. This came up as in that same discussion. It would almost certainly be a benefit to have a standardized API for config files. Note that this *is* a different question from the flat file/DBMs question. The standardize API doesn't have to talk things in a binary format. You could cram everything into S-expresisons, for instance. The question is whether or not you can make all the config files currently in use by FreeBSD comfortably fit through that API. For instance, there are a lot of tables (crontab, printcap, passwd, group, etc.) as well as some simple name/value pairs (rc.conf, etc.), as well as things that are simply lists of commands (your typical firewall config). This whole subject seems like an unimaginably > big can o worms. > > Even the staunchest advocates of the bindery/ > registry don't get it completely right. (as far as I've > seen anyway.) > > Thanks, [RC] > > > On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:34:24AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > Mike Meyer wrote: > > > > > > Randell Jesup types: > > > > Moved from -arch to -chat. > > > > Wes Peters writes: > > > > >We in the unix world have a well-founded aversion to storing configuration > > > > >information in binary data stores that can't be accessed via ed(1) when > > > > >the system is in single-user mode. If we wanted to stuff all the system > > > > >configuration into such a black hole, we could've done it with DBM data- > > > > >bases more than a decade ago, quite easily. > > > > > > Oddly enough, this exact suggestion - stuff all the configuration > > > information in a DBM - came up on a private list I'm no not long > > > ago. The suggestion came from someone very sharp, the goal being to > > > focus more talent on making the DBM fast. The problem Wes mentioned > > > prett much killed it at that point. > > > > > > > As someone said, vipw is a good counterexample. > > > > The above schemes do allow you to use ED (if you like) to edit > > > > configuration files. In one case it's totally free (even cp will work), in > > > > the other you have to use some sort of vipw thing to invoke the editor and > > > > make sure that the file is notified as changed (or integrate with the > > > > editor in some automatic or semi-automatic way). > > > > > > The critical issue isn't being able to use ed per se, it's working in > > > single user mode, with no file systems mounted and no daemons > > > running. How do your schemes deal with that requirement? > > > > Text-to-dbm converters still work fine in single user mode, as long as > > they're robust to handle not having a daemon to talk to. I even have one > > application that rips configuration information out of a PgSQL database > > and stuff it into a DBM database, on system startup and whenever the PgSQL > > table gets modified. > > > > Ick. > > > > -- > > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > > wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ > > > -- Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 11:21:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp017.mail.yahoo.com (smtp017.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 26DAC37B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:21:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fbsdq@yahoo.com) Received: from h2.impactidealsolutions.com (HELO support10) (216.98.200.91) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Mar 2001 19:21:46 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:22:54 -0700 X-Priority: 3 From: Peter X-Mailer: Mail Warrior To: mwm@mired.org, "Wes Peters" , "Mike Meyer" , "Randell Jesup" , "Terry Lambert" , "Matt Dillon" , "Alfred Perlstein" , "josb@cncdsl.com" , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit X-Mailer-Version: v3.57 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 03/06/2001 12:12:30 PM, Mike Meyer is quoted as saying: . . . .|>benefit to *BSD. What benefit would this have? Yes binary config files will probably mean faster boot times, but other than that, is their any reason we should all have our config files dependent on some DB? Ever have your registry go dead in windows? [no backups], that means reinstall OS and all your software, I would hate having the same thing happen to my FreeBSD box. I even look at the .db files of passwd/master.passwd, and I still dont' get why BSD didn't just stick with plaintext versions of those as most other unixes have [well I only know of Linux and the fresh install of Solaris 8 here]. . . . .|Robert Clark types: . . . .|> Have you seen any intelligent discussion of . . . .|> the whole concept of whether to keep config info . . . .|> in flat files, or to use a bindery/database? (Something . . . .|> I could go read up on.) . . . .|> I often wonder if a standardized api for . . . .|> storing and retreiving config info would be a benefit . . . .|> to *BSD. . . . .| . . . .|This came up as in that same discussion. It would almost certainly be . . . .|a benefit to have a standardized API for config files. Note that this . . . .|*is* a different question from the flat file/DBMs question. The . . . .|standardize API doesn't have to talk things in a binary format. You . . . .|could cram everything into S-expresisons, for instance. . . . .| . . . .|The question is whether or not you can make all the config files . . . .|currently in use by FreeBSD comfortably fit through that API. For . . . .|instance, there are a lot of tables (crontab, printcap, passwd, group, . . . .|etc.) as well as some simple name/value pairs (rc.conf, etc.), as well . . . .|as things that are simply lists of commands (your typical firewall . . . .|config). . . . .| . . . .| This whole subject seems like an unimaginably . . . .|> big can o worms. . . . .|> . . . .|> Even the staunchest advocates of the bindery/ . . . .|> registry don't get it completely right. (as far as I've . . . .|> seen anyway.) . . . .|> . . . .|> Thanks, [RC] . . . .|> . . . .|> . . . .|> On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:34:24AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: . . . .|> > Mike Meyer wrote: . . . .|> > > . . . .|> > > Randell Jesup types: . . . .|> > > > Moved from -arch to -chat. . . . .|> > > > Wes Peters writes: . . . .|> > > > >We in the unix world have a well-founded aversion to storing configuration . . . .|> > > > >information in binary data stores that can't be accessed via ed(1) when . . . .|> > > > >the system is in single-user mode. If we wanted to stuff all the system . . . .|> > > > >configuration into such a black hole, we could've done it with DBM data- . . . .|> > > > >bases more than a decade ago, quite easily. . . . .|> > > . . . .|> > > Oddly enough, this exact suggestion - stuff all the configuration . . . .|> > > information in a DBM - came up on a private list I'm no not long . . . .|> > > ago. The suggestion came from someone very sharp, the goal being to . . . .|> > > focus more talent on making the DBM fast. The problem Wes mentioned . . . .|> > > prett much killed it at that point. . . . .|> > > . . . .|> > > > As someone said, vipw is a good counterexample. . . . .|> > > > The above schemes do allow you to use ED (if you like) to edit . . . .|> > > > configuration files. In one case it's totally free (even cp will work), in . . . .|> > > > the other you have to use some sort of vipw thing to invoke the editor and . . . .|> > > > make sure that the file is notified as changed (or integrate with the . . . .|> > > > editor in some automatic or semi-automatic way). . . . .|> > > . . . .|> > > The critical issue isn't being able to use ed per se, it's working in . . . .|> > > single user mode, with no file systems mounted and no daemons . . . .|> > > running. How do your schemes deal with that requirement? . . . .|> > . . . .|> > Text-to-dbm converters still work fine in single user mode, as long as . . . .|> > they're robust to handle not having a daemon to talk to. I even have one . . . .|> > application that rips configuration information out of a PgSQL database . . . .|> > and stuff it into a DBM database, on system startup and whenever the PgSQL . . . .|> > table gets modified. . . . .|> > . . . .|> > Ick. . . . .|> > . . . .|> > -- . . . .|> > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" . . . .|> > . . . .|> > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC . . . .|> > wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ . . . .|> > . . . .|> . . . .|-- . . . .|Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ . . . .|Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. . . . .| . . . .|To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org . . . .|with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message www.nul.cjb.net www.FreeBSD.org _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 11:26:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (earth-nat-cw.backplane.com [208.161.114.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96DFD37B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:26:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@earth.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.2/8.9.3) id f26JQPf57250; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:26:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:26:25 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200103061926.f26JQPf57250@earth.backplane.com> To: Peter Cc: mwm@mired.org, "Wes Peters" , "Mike Meyer" , "Randell Jesup" , "Terry Lambert" , "Alfred Perlstein" , "josb@cncdsl.com" , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org :my FreeBSD box. I even look at the .db files of passwd/master.passwd, and I still dont' :get why BSD didn't just stick with plaintext versions of those as most other unixes have :[well I only know of Linux and the fresh install of Solaris 8 here]. Mmmmmm.... because when you have thousands of user accounts having the password file DBMd makes things like 'ls -la', 'top', or anything else that has to lookup a username (read: lots of programs) a whole lot faster. But I agree on the registry thingy... there is simply no real benefit to throwing the config data for all sorts of unrelated programs together into one database, and the downside is massive. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 11:27: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CFBB37B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:27:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f26JPw708744; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 20:26:02 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3AA52E66.425725FC@softweyr.com> References: <200102200122.SAA04466@usr05.primenet.com> <3A934507.A0645CF3@softweyr.com> <3AA52E66.425725FC@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:53:45 +0100 To: Wes Peters From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND Cc: Randell Jesup , Terry Lambert , Matt Dillon , Alfred Perlstein , josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:37 AM -0700 3/6/01, Wes Peters wrote: > Conversely, the really bad part about using SleepyCat's proprietary product > is that it would force anyone making FreeBSD-based products to either rip > it out of the system or pay SleepyCat money. I think we can pretty much > forgo any further discussion on this point. There's nothing of value in this world that I know of which is truly without cost. There simply aren't any robust, transaction-capable, recoverable format database engines out there which do not cost any money for any kind of license, including commercial purposes. Now, when we're talking about using it as a back-end for BIND, I think that the Sleepycat folks are likely to be willing to suitably modify the license to allow it to be used as one standard back-end for the open source version, and of course commercial products based on BIND would have the same database API available to them so they could replace Berkeley DB with whatever database engine they prefer. -- ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 11:28:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFC0237B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:28:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08191; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:28:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 12:28:23 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:46 AM 3/6/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >That's balls. The correct term is "bollocks." In any event, not so at all. > I won't suggest you don't know what you're talking >about, because you obviously do, it's just that you're willing to >distort anything to suit your own hate-Richard-Stallman agenda. Also untrue. I don't "hate" Richard Stallman, though I do believe that what he is doing is unethical. It is Stallman who is filled with hatred -- the result of the trauma documented so well in Steven Levy's book "Hackers" and in Stallman's own writings -- and is causing much harm. I'm speaking out against that hatred and malice. I cannot understand why you are attacking me for doing so. The only motivations I can imagine are (a) that you share Stallman's spite and hatred; (b) that you've been taken in by the propaganda he has spread to further his agenda; or (c) you think you have something to gain within the social group of this mailing list by attacking me. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 11:29:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 70E3937B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:29:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 37928 invoked by uid 100); 6 Mar 2001 19:29:20 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15013.14992.566241.472574@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:29:20 -0600 To: Peter Cc: mwm@mired.org, "Wes Peters" , "Randell Jesup" , "Terry Lambert" , "Matt Dillon" , "Alfred Perlstein" , "josb@cncdsl.com" , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Peter types: > On 03/06/2001 12:12:30 PM, Mike Meyer is quoted as saying: > . . . .|>benefit to *BSD. > > What benefit would this have? Yes binary config files will probably mean faster boot > times, but other than that, is their any reason we should all have our config files > dependent on some DB? Ever have your registry go dead in windows? [no backups], that > means reinstall OS and all your software, I would hate having the same thing happen to > my FreeBSD box. I even look at the .db files of passwd/master.passwd, and I still dont' > get why BSD didn't just stick with plaintext versions of those as most other unixes have Yes, I know the evils of storing system config information in binary files. The issue is orthogonal to the question of having a single API for accessing the config file information. The advantage of the latter is that you've reduced the learning curve for the system, the amount of code that has to be compiled to make world, and the disk and ram space taken up by the resulting binaries. [well I only know of Linux and the fresh install of Solaris 8 here]. > > > . . . .|Robert Clark types: > . . . .|> Have you seen any intelligent discussion of > . . . .|> the whole concept of whether to keep config info > . . . .|> in flat files, or to use a bindery/database? (Something > . . . .|> I could go read up on.) > . . . .|> I often wonder if a standardized api for > . . . .|> storing and retreiving config info would be a benefit > . . . .|> to *BSD. > . . . .| > . . . .|This came up as in that same discussion. It would almost certainly be > . . . .|a benefit to have a standardized API for config files. Note that this > . . . .|*is* a different question from the flat file/DBMs question. The > . . . .|standardize API doesn't have to talk things in a binary format. You > . . . .|could cram everything into S-expresisons, for instance. > . . . .| > . . . .|The question is whether or not you can make all the config files > . . . .|currently in use by FreeBSD comfortably fit through that API. For > . . . .|instance, there are a lot of tables (crontab, printcap, passwd, group, > . . . .|etc.) as well as some simple name/value pairs (rc.conf, etc.), as well > . . . .|as things that are simply lists of commands (your typical firewall > . . . .|config). > . . . .| > . . . .| . . . .| > . . . .|> This whole subject seems like an unimaginably > . . . .|> big can o worms. > . . . .|> > . . . .|> Even the staunchest advocates of the bindery/ > . . . .|> registry don't get it completely right. (as far as I've > . . . .|> seen anyway.) > . . . .|> > . . . .|> Thanks, [RC] > . . . .|> > . . . .|> > . . . .|> On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:34:24AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > . . . .|> > Mike Meyer wrote: > . . . .|> > > > . . . .|> > > Randell Jesup types: > . . . .|> > > > Moved from -arch to -chat. > . . . .|> > > > Wes Peters writes: > . . . .|> > > > >We in the unix world have a well-founded aversion to storing configuration > . . . .|> > > > >information in binary data stores that can't be accessed via ed(1) when > . . . .|> > > > >the system is in single-user mode. If we wanted to stuff all the system > . . . .|> > > > >configuration into such a black hole, we could've done it with DBM data- > . . . .|> > > > >bases more than a decade ago, quite easily. > . . . .|> > > > . . . .|> > > Oddly enough, this exact suggestion - stuff all the configuration > . . . .|> > > information in a DBM - came up on a private list I'm no not long > . . . .|> > > ago. The suggestion came from someone very sharp, the goal being to > . . . .|> > > focus more talent on making the DBM fast. The problem Wes mentioned > . . . .|> > > prett much killed it at that point. > . . . .|> > > > . . . .|> > > > As someone said, vipw is a good counterexample. > . . . .|> > > > The above schemes do allow you to use ED (if you like) to edit > . . . .|> > > > configuration files. In one case it's totally free (even cp will work), in > . . . .|> > > > the other you have to use some sort of vipw thing to invoke the editor and > . . . .|> > > > make sure that the file is notified as changed (or integrate with the > . . . .|> > > > editor in some automatic or semi-automatic way). > . . . .|> > > > . . . .|> > > The critical issue isn't being able to use ed per se, it's working in > . . . .|> > > single user mode, with no file systems mounted and no daemons > . . . .|> > > running. How do your schemes deal with that requirement? > . . . .|> > > . . . .|> > Text-to-dbm converters still work fine in single user mode, as long as > . . . .|> > they're robust to handle not having a daemon to talk to. I even have one > . . . .|> > application that rips configuration information out of a PgSQL database > . . . .|> > and stuff it into a DBM database, on system startup and whenever the PgSQL > . . . .|> > table gets modified. > . . . .|> > > . . . .|> > Ick. > . . . .|> > > . . . .|> > -- > . . . .|> > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > . . . .|> > > . . . .|> > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > . . . .|> > wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ > . . . .|> > > . . . .|> > . . . .|-- > . . . .|Mike Meyer > http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > . . . .|Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more > information. > . . . .| > . . . .|To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > . . . .|with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > www.nul.cjb.net > www.FreeBSD.org > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 11:29:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (yowie.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CEE337B71D for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:29:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s337240@student.uq.edu.au) Received: from student.uq.edu.au (s337240@student.uq.edu.au [130.102.87.136]) by yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA17309; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 05:28:41 +1000 (GMT+1000) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 05:28:40 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: Trent Waddington To: Robert Clark Cc: Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <20010306100616.B45802@darkstar.gte.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org www.paypal.com On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Robert Clark wrote: > On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:17:06AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 01:49 PM 3/5/2001, Robert Clark wrote: > > > > >I just recently heard a statement that helped me understand > > >why the Grateful Dead allowed taping at their concerts. > > > > > >The statement went something like "At the end of the day, > > >after the performance was over, Jerry went home from work > > >like anyone else." > > > > > >Apparently, the band made a living "performing" their work. > > > > This was only one of their many revenue streams. They enjoyed > > large royalties from T-shirts, posters, and other regalia, as > > well as from their published albums. While their concerts were > > profitable, Bill Graham and other promoters made most of the money. > > > > --Brett > > > > And there is a message in there somewhere. Is Mr Stallman a > promoter? In that analogy, would Linus be like Jerry? > > I don't begrudge RedHat or Walnut Creek their living. But > their promotion isn't what I'm interested in. > > Someone who is financially responsible needs to setup as a > nonprofit micropayment broker. > > In the same way that I can toss money into a street performers > hat, it would be nice to be able to be able to contribute > small amounts of money to small projects. > > As long as there is no alternative to the "feast or famine" > ways of doing business, its going to a black and white world. > > Commercial companies grabbing everything they can, and open > source refugees moving from inspiration to inspiration. > (Dodging lawsuits all the while.) > > [RC] > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 11:30:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0075237B71A for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:30:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08211; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:29:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122844.046a5810@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 12:29:12 -0700 To: Trent Waddington From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306010616.046d6320@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:45 AM 3/6/2001, Trent Waddington wrote: >I suggest you read the essay again. I suggest that you read it critically for the first time. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 11:32:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CBE0C37B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:32:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 38128 invoked by uid 100); 6 Mar 2001 19:32:40 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15013.15191.959589.129112@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:32:39 -0600 To: Matt Dillon Cc: Peter , mwm@mired.org, "Wes Peters" , "Randell Jesup" , "Terry Lambert" , "Alfred Perlstein" , "josb@cncdsl.com" , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND In-Reply-To: <200103061926.f26JQPf57250@earth.backplane.com> References: <200103061926.f26JQPf57250@earth.backplane.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matt Dillon types: > :my FreeBSD box. I even look at the .db files of passwd/master.passwd, and I still dont' > :get why BSD didn't just stick with plaintext versions of those as most other unixes have > :[well I only know of Linux and the fresh install of Solaris 8 here]. > > Mmmmmm.... because when you have thousands of user accounts having the > password file DBMd makes things like 'ls -la', 'top', or anything else > that has to lookup a username (read: lots of programs) a whole lot faster. Login was always my favorite example. It was taking long enough on Ultrix at Berkeley that some of the things in the chain between a dial-in user and the system would time out before it finished. Not good. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 11:41:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 911D737B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:41:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08360; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:40:31 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122926.046aacb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 12:40:27 -0700 To: Robert Clark From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Robert Clark , Rahul Siddharthan , Trent Waddington , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010306100616.B45802@darkstar.gte.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011539.045faaa0@localhost> <20010304130501.A32152@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <20010304130501.A32152@lpt.ens.fr> <20010305124910.A44291@darkstar.gte.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011539.045faaa0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:06 AM 3/6/2001, Robert Clark wrote: >And there is a message in there somewhere. Is Mr Stallman a >promoter? No. Stallman has no counterpart in the Grateful Dead scenario. >In that analogy, would Linus be like Jerry? No, because Jerry did not give away his work. He merely allowed some rather limited free reproduction of it. >I don't begrudge RedHat or Walnut Creek their living. But >their promotion isn't what I'm interested in. They don't really have a counterpart in the Grateful Dead scenario either. There is no for-profit distribution of Grateful Dead bootlegs, because the fans trade pretty much at cost and dealers can't compete with that. >Someone who is financially responsible needs to setup as a >nonprofit micropayment broker. > >In the same way that I can toss money into a street performers >hat, it would be nice to be able to be able to contribute >small amounts of money to small projects. This has been tried. It's called "ShareWare." >As long as there is no alternative to the "feast or famine" >ways of doing business, its going to a black and white world. It's not that black and white at all. Many businesses are, for example, giving away low-end versions of products and services and charging for high-end ones. Others are trying to implement strategies that include open source. (The ones that are succeeding are the ones that don't use the GPL, incidentally. The GPL is -- and is intended to be -- poisonous to for-profit businesses. This is why I don't hold out much hope of Eazel ever being profitable.... Andy Hertzfeld, who is technically brilliant but has not had good success starting businesses, has embraced the GPL without realizing that it will deprive him of a chance to be compensated for his hard (and, in many cases, truly inspired) work. >Commercial companies grabbing everything they can, and open >source refugees moving from inspiration to inspiration. >(Dodging lawsuits all the while.) Sorry, but while your image of open source advocates being "refugees" or "dodging lawsuits" sounds heroic, in fact nothing of the kind is happening. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 11:56:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (yowie.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F78C37B71A for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:56:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s337240@student.uq.edu.au) Received: from student.uq.edu.au (s337240@student.uq.edu.au [130.102.87.136]) by yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA28683; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 05:55:36 +1000 (GMT+1000) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 05:55:36 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: Trent Waddington To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122844.046a5810@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org need I quote the essay? Sheesh... "The copyright bargain that we have is no longer a good deal for the public, and it is time to revise it--time for the law to recognize the public benefit that comes from making and sharing copies." RMS calls for revision, not elimination. Authors who have referenced this work have proposed that the most important "freedom" we are willing to trade for copyright is not the freedom to share copyrighted works but the freedom to sell copyrighted works. That is to say, only the copyright owner may sell the work (or otherwise profit from it) but anyone may copy it. This does not appear to be a fair deal to the copyright owner however as he sees the number of potential customers decrease with every copy of his work made for sharing. It is a rare proponent of copyright law elimination who claims that the public should have the freedom to sell other people's work for a profit. RMS claims to have this opinion but I think it is a ruse. He knows that no-one can sell GPL'd software, not without some other value attached. On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:45 AM 3/6/2001, Trent Waddington wrote: > > >I suggest you read the essay again. > > I suggest that you read it critically for the first time. > > --Brett > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 11:56:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 54F4F37B71B for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:56:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 38821 invoked by uid 100); 6 Mar 2001 19:56:31 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15013.16623.436265.368429@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:56:31 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 09:46 AM 3/6/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Also untrue. I don't "hate" Richard Stallman, though I do believe > that what he is doing is unethical. It is Stallman who is filled > with hatred -- the result of the trauma documented so well in > Steven Levy's book "Hackers" and in Stallman's own writings -- > and is causing much harm. I'm speaking out against that hatred > and malice. > > I cannot understand why you are attacking me for doing so. The > only motivations I can imagine are (a) that you share Stallman's > spite and hatred; (b) that you've been taken in by the propaganda > he has spread to further his agenda; or (c) you think you have > something to gain within the social group of this mailing list > by attacking me. Brett, Resorting to mud-slinging just weakens your argument. It makes people think that you've run out of support for your position, and have to resort to attacking the people instead of their position. While trying to understand other peoples motivations is generally a good idea, discussing them - especially in such negative terms - isn't. If that's the best you can do, ask. That others started by slinging mud at you is no excuse - respond by calling them on it, not by attacking in kind. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 11:57:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90FB237B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:57:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA1669; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:02:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3AA5411A.8C658FF8@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 11:57:14 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011539.045faaa0@localhost> <20010304130501.A32152@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010303132348.04461420@localhost> <20010304130501.A32152@lpt.ens.fr> <20010305124910.A44291@darkstar.gte.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011539.045faaa0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122926.046aacb0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > >Commercial companies grabbing everything they can, and open > >source refugees moving from inspiration to inspiration. > >(Dodging lawsuits all the while.) > > Sorry, but while your image of open source advocates being > "refugees" or "dodging lawsuits" sounds heroic, in fact nothing > of the kind is happening. Sort of like the Declaration of the freedevelopers.net. They make it sound as if they are rebels and revolutionaries striking a blow against tyranny. But there are no kings or tyrants for them to rebel against. There are no laws against giving away or sharing your own property. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 12:17: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21ED037B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:17:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08834; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:15:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306130739.046aa370@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:15:16 -0700 To: Trent Waddington From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122844.046a5810@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:55 PM 3/6/2001, Trent Waddington wrote: >need I quote the essay? Sheesh... > >"The copyright bargain that we have is no longer a good deal for the >public, and it is time to revise it--time for the law to recognize the >public benefit that comes from making and sharing copies." You're being misled by Stallman's rhetoric. Stallman CLAIMS -- disingenously -- at the start of his essay that he is going to propose a bargain, but in fact what he proposes is not any sort of bargain at all. Rather, he proposes a result which is entirely favorable to him and his agenda. The key statement in Stallman's essay is this one: "There is no possible justification for prohibiting the public from copying what it wants to copy." No restrictions on copying at all. No artists' rights. No compensation for authors, composers, musicians, or programmers. In short, no copyright. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 12:17:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBF0537B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:17:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08854; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:16:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306131533.046dfc60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:16:55 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15013.16623.436265.368429@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:56 PM 3/6/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >> I cannot understand why you are attacking me for doing so. The >> only motivations I can imagine are (a) that you share Stallman's >> spite and hatred; (b) that you've been taken in by the propaganda >> he has spread to further his agenda; or (c) you think you have >> something to gain within the social group of this mailing list >> by attacking me. > >Brett, > >Resorting to mud-slinging just weakens your argument. I'm not resorting to anything of the sort. Read the above again, and you'll see that I am, rather, asking Mr. Siddharthan why HE is mudslinging. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 12:23:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (yowie.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8B937B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:23:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s337240@student.uq.edu.au) Received: from student.uq.edu.au (s337240@student.uq.edu.au [130.102.87.136]) by yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA30865; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 06:23:06 +1000 (GMT+1000) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 06:23:06 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: Trent Waddington To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306130739.046aa370@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I claim that you are being misled by the "intellectual property" body of publisher cartels. This claim: "There is no possible justification for prohibiting the public from copying what it wants to copy." is not RMS's, it an assertion made during the drafting of the US constitution. If you _read_ the essay, you would know this. Copyright is not about compensating authors are the moral requirement of people to pay others for their work. That's the domain of intellectual property. No, copyright is all about encouraging authors to create _more_ works. It's a bribe. So if you write one book and you can honestly say that you dont have another book in you, then the only reason I have to pay for your work is to advertise the oppotunity to make a profit by writing books to other would be authors. If I dont think this will happen then I shouldn't pay you. Your romantic notions about authors being privledges beings that we should publically support is misled and results in greater harm to society than the outright elimination of copyright would. On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:55 PM 3/6/2001, Trent Waddington wrote: > > >need I quote the essay? Sheesh... > > > >"The copyright bargain that we have is no longer a good deal for the > >public, and it is time to revise it--time for the law to recognize the > >public benefit that comes from making and sharing copies." > > You're being misled by Stallman's rhetoric. > > Stallman CLAIMS -- disingenously -- at the start of his essay that he > is going to propose a bargain, but in fact what he proposes is not > any sort of bargain at all. Rather, he proposes a result which is > entirely favorable to him and his agenda. > > The key statement in Stallman's essay is this one: > > "There is no possible justification for prohibiting the public from > copying what it wants to copy." > > No restrictions on copying at all. No artists' rights. No compensation > for authors, composers, musicians, or programmers. In short, no copyright. > > --Brett > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 12:32:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC35437B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:32:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09051; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:31:39 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306132549.046e3ab0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:31:36 -0700 To: Trent Waddington From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306130739.046aa370@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:23 PM 3/6/2001, Trent Waddington wrote: >I claim that you are being misled by the "intellectual property" body of >publisher cartels. Nonsense. I'm an author, programmer, composer, and musician, and Mr. Stallman should not be allowed to deny me or anyone else compensation for my work. >This claim: > >"There is no possible justification for prohibiting the public from >copying what it wants to copy." > >is not RMS's, it an assertion made during the drafting of the US >constitution. Incorrect. The statement is Stallman's. > If you _read_ the essay, you would know this. Copyright is >not about compensating authors are the moral requirement of people to pay >others for their work. That's the domain of intellectual property. Er, what hallucinogenic substance have you been smoking? Copyrighted works ARE intellectual property. >No, >copyright is all about encouraging authors to create _more_ works. Not so; that is only one of its aims. Perhaps YOU should read the Constitution. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 12:33:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0860A37B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:33:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 39860 invoked by uid 100); 6 Mar 2001 20:33:07 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15013.18818.990246.193990@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 14:33:06 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306131533.046dfc60@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306131533.046dfc60@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 12:56 PM 3/6/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >> I cannot understand why you are attacking me for doing so. The > >> only motivations I can imagine are (a) that you share Stallman's > >> spite and hatred; (b) that you've been taken in by the propaganda > >> he has spread to further his agenda; or (c) you think you have > >> something to gain within the social group of this mailing list > >> by attacking me. > >Resorting to mud-slinging just weakens your argument. > > I'm not resorting to anything of the sort. Read the above again, > and you'll see that I am, rather, asking Mr. Siddharthan why HE > is mudslinging. I don't see a single question in the statement you quoted. Instead, I see you accusing Mr. Siddharthan of spite and hate, being gullible, simply being malicious, or possibly some combination of the three. All of those are insulting, and constitute mud-slinging. You do imply the question by suggesting reasons, but it would have been more seemly to simply *ask*, rather than throw up a barrage of insulting suggestions. You also quoted me out of context, as my original quoted you saying: > > Also untrue. I don't "hate" Richard Stallman, though I do believe > > that what he is doing is unethical. It is Stallman who is filled > > with hatred -- the result of the trauma documented so well in > > Steven Levy's book "Hackers" and in Stallman's own writings -- > > and is causing much harm. I'm speaking out against that hatred > > and malice. Ethics - or lack thereof - are a mudslingers favorite target. Saying that someone is acting out of hatred and malice in an era when hate crimes draw special punishments is mud-slinging of the vilest sort. That your arguments against Mr. Stallman's position seem to inevitably lead to this kind of personal attack on him may well have something to do with *why* people accuse you of hating him. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 12:37:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (yowie.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E41737B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:37:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s337240@student.uq.edu.au) Received: from student.uq.edu.au (s337240@student.uq.edu.au [130.102.87.136]) by yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA00209; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 06:37:20 +1000 (GMT+1000) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 06:37:19 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: Trent Waddington To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , David Johnson , Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306132549.046e3ab0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ok, you seem to just want to say "is not" in response to my quite valid claims, so I'll leave you now. I suggest that you read a little more about the ramifications of intellectual property, its distinction from intellectual property law and indeed copyright law. When you have a clear idea of how divergent intellectual property is from the purposes of copyright law, then perhaps we can have a civil conversation. On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:23 PM 3/6/2001, Trent Waddington wrote: > > >I claim that you are being misled by the "intellectual property" body of > >publisher cartels. > > Nonsense. I'm an author, programmer, composer, and musician, and Mr. > Stallman should not be allowed to deny me or anyone else compensation > for my work. > > >This claim: > > > >"There is no possible justification for prohibiting the public from > >copying what it wants to copy." > > > >is not RMS's, it an assertion made during the drafting of the US > >constitution. > > Incorrect. The statement is Stallman's. > > > If you _read_ the essay, you would know this. Copyright is > >not about compensating authors are the moral requirement of people to pay > >others for their work. That's the domain of intellectual property. > > Er, what hallucinogenic substance have you been smoking? Copyrighted > works ARE intellectual property. > > >No, > >copyright is all about encouraging authors to create _more_ works. > > Not so; that is only one of its aims. Perhaps YOU should read the > Constitution. > > --Brett > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 12:40:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D9D937B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:40:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f26KdlI55357; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:39:52 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200103062039.f26KdlI55357@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Mike Meyer Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:39:47 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <15013.18818.990246.193990@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306131533.046dfc60@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Before this goes much further, might I suggest that a new thread be started instead of continuing it under this one. On 6 Mar 2001, at 14:33, Mike Meyer wrote: > Brett Glass types: > > At 12:56 PM 3/6/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > >> I cannot understand why you are attacking me for doing so. The > > >> only motivations I can imagine are (a) that you share Stallman's > > >> spite and hatred; (b) that you've been taken in by the propaganda he > > >> has spread to further his agenda; or (c) you think you have something > > >> to gain within the social group of this mailing list by attacking me. > > >Resorting to mud-slinging just weakens your argument. > > > > I'm not resorting to anything of the sort. Read the above again, > > and you'll see that I am, rather, asking Mr. Siddharthan why HE > > is mudslinging. > > I don't see a single question in the statement you quoted. Instead, I > see you accusing Mr. Siddharthan of spite and hate, being gullible, > simply being malicious, or possibly some combination of the three. All of > those are insulting, and constitute mud-slinging. You do imply the question > by suggesting reasons, but it would have been more seemly to simply *ask*, > rather than throw up a barrage of insulting suggestions. > > You also quoted me out of context, as my original quoted you saying: > > > > Also untrue. I don't "hate" Richard Stallman, though I do believe > > > that what he is doing is unethical. It is Stallman who is filled > > > with hatred -- the result of the trauma documented so well in > > > Steven Levy's book "Hackers" and in Stallman's own writings -- > > > and is causing much harm. I'm speaking out against that hatred > > > and malice. > > Ethics - or lack thereof - are a mudslingers favorite target. Saying that > someone is acting out of hatred and malice in an era when hate crimes draw > special punishments is mud-slinging of the vilest sort. That your arguments > against Mr. Stallman's position seem to inevitably lead to this kind of > personal attack on him may well have something to do with *why* people > accuse you of hating him. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 12:53:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7DEA437B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:53:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 40433 invoked by uid 100); 6 Mar 2001 20:53:16 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15013.20028.618197.647240@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 14:53:16 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , "Brett Glass" , Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <018801c0a67d$0d64b340$7c4cf9d1@geeksparadise.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <15013.13530.718675.101675@guru.mired.org> <018801c0a67d$0d64b340$7c4cf9d1@geeksparadise.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz types: > > I like the "don't protect copyright if doing so is infeasible and > > ridiculously invasive" idea. That means the emergence of cheap > > computers not only makes digital media a reasonable distribution > > mechanism, but also a media that shouldn't be protected. > This is where I think many people agree the DMCA has gone _way_ too > far. I'm as much a diehard supporter of intellectual property rights as > anyone, but I can't see any logical connection between the DMCA's > 'anti-circumvention' provisions and legitimate property rights. The really scary part is these "content protection" measures are being used to take rights away from the copyright holder - if they don't happen to be a major publisher! See John Gilmore's essay at . http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 14:55: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0FC37B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 14:54:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA1042; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 14:59:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3AA56AC1.90486DEB@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:54:57 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Trent Waddington Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Trent Waddington wrote: > > ok, you seem to just want to say "is not" in response to my quite valid > claims, so I'll leave you now. I suggest that you read a little more > about the ramifications of intellectual property, its distinction from > intellectual property law and indeed copyright law. When you have a clear > idea of how divergent intellectual property is from the purposes of > copyright law, then perhaps we can have a civil conversation. I don't know what the specific legal definitions are, since I am not a lawyer and cannot speak their obfuscated jargon. But the common thought in the US at least is that copyright is one of the intellectual properties, the others being patents, trademarks and trade secrets. That might not be the origin of copyright, but that's how it viewed by the common person. Looking over the old debates on copyright, I see that they used the term "intellectual property" as well. One valid definition of property is that the owner gets to control access to it. Thus a copyrighted work is property. "Intellectual" may be the wrong adjective to use, but that's beside the point. It doesn't much matter to me if there are copyright laws or not. Both Free/Open Software and proprietary/closed software can exist with or without official government recognition. Indeed, through a quirk of history, most proprietary software licenses are based on contract law instead of copyright law. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 15: 2:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wgate.com (mail.wgate.com [38.219.83.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61B3F37B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:02:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rjesup@wgate.com) Received: from jesup.eng.tvol.net ([10.32.2.26]) by mail.wgate.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id GN5YTKCB; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:02:27 -0500 Reply-To: Randell Jesup To: Wes Peters Cc: Mike Meyer , Randell Jesup , Terry Lambert , Matt Dillon , Alfred Perlstein , josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND References: <200102200122.SAA04466@usr05.primenet.com> <3A934507.A0645CF3@softweyr.com> <15012.11507.801736.502035@guru.mired.org> <3AA4A110.5245FCD4@softweyr.com> From: Randell Jesup Date: 06 Mar 2001 18:02:26 -0500 In-Reply-To: Wes Peters's message of "Tue, 06 Mar 2001 01:34:24 -0700" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters writes: >Mike Meyer wrote: >> Randell Jesup types: >> > As someone said, vipw is a good counterexample. >> > The above schemes do allow you to use ED (if you like) to edit >> > configuration files. In one case it's totally free (even cp will work), in >> > the other you have to use some sort of vipw thing to invoke the editor and >> > make sure that the file is notified as changed (or integrate with the >> > editor in some automatic or semi-automatic way). >> >> The critical issue isn't being able to use ed per se, it's working in >> single user mode, with no file systems mounted and no daemons >> running. How do your schemes deal with that requirement? The scheme I was talking about works fine, though a change might not be picked up until a user of the data is restarted/kicked/etc (however, with no daemons running, there won't be many people waiting on the data anyways). My scheme (as opposed to some of the other discussion) didn't specify if the data was in classic text form, DBM, etc - it just added notification-of-change mechanisms on top of the file semantic. -- Randell Jesup, Worldgate Communications, ex-Scala, ex-Amiga OS team ('88-94) rjesup@wgate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 15:16:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (yowie.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7951437B71B for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:16:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s337240@student.uq.edu.au) Received: from student.uq.edu.au (s337240@student.uq.edu.au [130.102.87.136]) by yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23973; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:16:21 +1000 (GMT+1000) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:16:21 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: Trent Waddington To: David Johnson Cc: Brett Glass , Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <3AA56AC1.90486DEB@acuson.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My point was the need to recognise the difference between the use of "Intellectual Property" in the literature and "Intellectual Property Law". The two are very different. The former being a philosophical argument that thoughts and ideas can be property, and the ramifications of that concept on society. The later being an attempt by publishers to gain rights over the work of artists, usually exclusive to the consumers of those works. The founding fathers of the US rejected the former. On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, David Johnson wrote: > Trent Waddington wrote: > > > > ok, you seem to just want to say "is not" in response to my quite valid > > claims, so I'll leave you now. I suggest that you read a little more > > about the ramifications of intellectual property, its distinction from > > intellectual property law and indeed copyright law. When you have a clear > > idea of how divergent intellectual property is from the purposes of > > copyright law, then perhaps we can have a civil conversation. > > I don't know what the specific legal definitions are, since I am not a > lawyer and cannot speak their obfuscated jargon. But the common thought > in the US at least is that copyright is one of the intellectual > properties, the others being patents, trademarks and trade secrets. That > might not be the origin of copyright, but that's how it viewed by the > common person. Looking over the old debates on copyright, I see that > they used the term "intellectual property" as well. > > One valid definition of property is that the owner gets to control > access to it. Thus a copyrighted work is property. "Intellectual" may be > the wrong adjective to use, but that's beside the point. > > It doesn't much matter to me if there are copyright laws or not. Both > Free/Open Software and proprietary/closed software can exist with or > without official government recognition. Indeed, through a quirk of > history, most proprietary software licenses are based on contract law > instead of copyright law. > > David > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 15:53:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1383D37B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:53:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA25922; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:47:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA_ma4wY; Tue Mar 6 16:47:43 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA02845; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:53:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200103062353.QAA02845@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND To: rjesup@wgate.com Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 23:53:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters), mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), dillon@earth.backplane.com (Matt Dillon), bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Randell Jesup" at Mar 06, 2001 06:02:26 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The reductio ad absurdum of putting things in text files for fear of binary file corruption not being as recoverable as text, is to store the kernel itself as text, in order to make it recoverable, since a binary file is "too hard to recover". I think people are using "binary file recovery is hard" as code for "I didn't do backups, and humans can at least salvage some data from a corrupt text file, if it's not too corrupt". We had an interesting problem on the InterJet which I think is applicable; it had to do with mmap() and copy-on-write. The cron program opened up the password data, and assumed that it was going to get back a pointer to a static area with getpwent(), but instead got back a pointer to a copy-on-write area. It updated the contents of this "static" data (cron still does this today), and went about it's business. This resulted in the page being marked dirty, and through some confusion in the kernel, since the file was open read-only, and there was no reasonable backing store, occasionally something would force paging, and the dirty passwd database file page would get stomped over top of the crontab contents. In other words, we had a nice text file, which became unrecoverably corrupt, through no fault of its own. Of course, everything quit working, but connectivity was not a problem, so the problem would land on my desk, since it required an engineering intervention (only engineering had the necessary acess to resolve the problem, and then only with customer cooperation). I don't see text files as being any safer than binary, except in the case of human recovery in the absence of a backup. I would argue that human recovery is not a useful scenario, even in the absence of a backup. All the data on the system is stored in one big binary file called a "device", with the format only understood by the kernel and special tools (e.g. fsck, tunefs, newfs, etc.). The weakest link is the weakest link, and we shouldn't try to pretend it isn't, or we'll only get ourselves into trouble. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 15:54:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BC3537B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:54:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11727; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:53:48 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306164606.046d4100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 16:53:41 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15013.18818.990246.193990@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306131533.046dfc60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306131533.046dfc60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:33 PM 3/6/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Ethics - or lack thereof - are a mudslingers favorite target. I see: It follows, then, that if I point out unethical behavior, I am mudslinging? Bzzzt.... Sorry, non sequitur. > Saying that someone is acting out of hatred and malice in an era when hate crimes draw special punishments is mud-slinging of the vilest sort. Again, non sequitur. My reports of Stallman's attitudes and behavior are factually correct and verifiable by many sources. Richard Stallman has expressed his hatred and malice against anyone who profits from creative work -- in particular, from writing and selling software -- in many forums, and these traits have likewise been documented by many independent sources. Steven Levy's account is perhaps one of the best. Levy certainly doesn't hate Stallman. In fact, he expresses some sympathy for Stallman, whom he portrays -- accurately, I think -- as a pathetic figure saddled with a deep and enduring grudge and a monomaniacal desire for revenge. I strongly recommend his book. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 16:18:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 66D3437B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:18:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 44776 invoked by uid 100); 7 Mar 2001 00:18:19 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15013.32331.61713.830461@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:18:19 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306164606.046d4100@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306131533.046dfc60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306164606.046d4100@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 01:33 PM 3/6/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Ethics - or lack thereof - are a mudslingers favorite target. > I see: It follows, then, that if I point out unethical behavior, > I am mudslinging? Bzzzt.... Sorry, non sequitur. Yes, going from arbitrary claims that someone unethical to claiming to point out unethical action is indeed a non sequitor. I'm surprised you pointed out your own illogical behavior, though. > > Saying that someone is acting out of hatred and malice in an era > when hate crimes draw special punishments is mud-slinging of the > vilest sort. > Again, non sequitur. My reports of Stallman's attitudes and > behavior are factually correct and verifiable by many sources. > Richard Stallman has expressed his hatred and malice against > anyone who profits from creative work -- in particular, from > writing and selling software -- in many forums, and these traits > have likewise been documented by many independent sources. Your grasp of English seems to rival that of Alanis Morissette. Claiming that actions are taken out of hate is mudslinging, pure and simple. If your claims happen to be true, then you aren't guilty of libel, but are still guilty of mudslinging. The bottom line is that every time I've seen you enter into such a debate, you inevitably wind up attacking Stallman. Resorting to attacking the proponents of an idea is always an indication that the attacker no longer has no way to attack the idea. Which is a fact you have yet to deal with. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 16:36:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2pub.verizon.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 385E537B71A for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:36:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop2pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id SAA104439499 Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:36:54 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA46441; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:36:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:36:37 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Trent Waddington Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010306163637.A46410@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010306100616.B45802@darkstar.gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from s337240@student.uq.edu.au on Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:28:40AM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paypal.com is *nonprofit* ? On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:28:40AM +1000, Trent Waddington wrote: > > www.paypal.com > > On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Robert Clark wrote: > > > On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:17:06AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > > At 01:49 PM 3/5/2001, Robert Clark wrote: > > > > > > >I just recently heard a statement that helped me understand > > > >why the Grateful Dead allowed taping at their concerts. > > > > > > > >The statement went something like "At the end of the day, > > > >after the performance was over, Jerry went home from work > > > >like anyone else." > > > > > > > >Apparently, the band made a living "performing" their work. > > > > > > This was only one of their many revenue streams. They enjoyed > > > large royalties from T-shirts, posters, and other regalia, as > > > well as from their published albums. While their concerts were > > > profitable, Bill Graham and other promoters made most of the money. > > > > > > --Brett > > > > > > > And there is a message in there somewhere. Is Mr Stallman a > > promoter? In that analogy, would Linus be like Jerry? > > > > I don't begrudge RedHat or Walnut Creek their living. But > > their promotion isn't what I'm interested in. > > > > Someone who is financially responsible needs to setup as a > > nonprofit micropayment broker. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 16:42:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (yowie.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A366F37B71A for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:42:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s337240@student.uq.edu.au) Received: from student.uq.edu.au (s337240@student.uq.edu.au [130.102.87.136]) by yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07799; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:42:29 +1000 (GMT+1000) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:42:29 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: Trent Waddington To: Robert Clark Cc: Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <20010306163637.A46410@darkstar.gte.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org well I doubt they've made a profit :) On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Robert Clark wrote: > > Paypal.com is *nonprofit* ? > > > On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:28:40AM +1000, Trent Waddington wrote: > > > > www.paypal.com > > > > On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Robert Clark wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:17:06AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > At 01:49 PM 3/5/2001, Robert Clark wrote: > > > > > > > > >I just recently heard a statement that helped me understand > > > > >why the Grateful Dead allowed taping at their concerts. > > > > > > > > > >The statement went something like "At the end of the day, > > > > >after the performance was over, Jerry went home from work > > > > >like anyone else." > > > > > > > > > >Apparently, the band made a living "performing" their work. > > > > > > > > This was only one of their many revenue streams. They enjoyed > > > > large royalties from T-shirts, posters, and other regalia, as > > > > well as from their published albums. While their concerts were > > > > profitable, Bill Graham and other promoters made most of the money. > > > > > > > > --Brett > > > > > > > > > > And there is a message in there somewhere. Is Mr Stallman a > > > promoter? In that analogy, would Linus be like Jerry? > > > > > > I don't begrudge RedHat or Walnut Creek their living. But > > > their promotion isn't what I'm interested in. > > > > > > Someone who is financially responsible needs to setup as a > > > nonprofit micropayment broker. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 16:44:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D31437B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:44:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12415; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:43:33 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306174039.00d45e20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 17:43:30 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15013.32331.61713.830461@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306164606.046d4100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306131533.046dfc60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306164606.046d4100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:18 PM 3/6/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Yes, going from arbitrary claims that someone unethical to claiming to >point out unethical action is indeed a non sequitor. I've made no arbitrary claims. Seems like YOU are doing the mudslinging.... At me. >Claiming that actions are taken out of hate is mudslinging, pure and >simple. Not if the actor himself says that those actions are taken out of hate. Which Stallman, in his more candid moments, has done. Stallman's hatred is well documented. People who might be swayed by Stallman's propaganda should consider the source -- as well as the deceptive content. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 16:46:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2026237B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:46:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 45655 invoked by uid 100); 7 Mar 2001 00:46:34 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15013.34026.376910.338299@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:46:34 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306174039.00d45e20@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306164606.046d4100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306131533.046dfc60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306174039.00d45e20@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass once again ignores the real issue... Ok, I've made my point. Brett doesn't have a clue as to how to attack Stallmans ideas, so he attacks Stallman directly. When called on it, he ignores it, and starts playing word games. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 16:54:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B98437B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:54:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12530; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:54:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306174928.00d45220@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 17:53:58 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" , "Mike Meyer" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: In-Reply-To: <018801c0a67d$0d64b340$7c4cf9d1@geeksparadise.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <15013.13530.718675.101675@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:33 PM 3/6/2001, David Schwartz wrote: > This is where I think many people agree the DMCA has gone _way_ too >far. I'm as much a diehard supporter of intellectual property rights as >anyone, but I can't see any logical connection between the DMCA's >'anti-circumvention' provisions and legitimate property rights. I agree. Especially when the "anti-circumvention" provision precludes access by people who actually have the right to use the content. > I think one of the reasons we have such problems is because our >copyright and patent scheme isn't based upon any legitimate moral >foundation. I disagree. I think that there is a general consensus that authors do have moral rights, and at least some of the current laws are honest efforts to protect them. The DMCA is not one of those laws, though. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 17: 1:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0BA737B71A for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:01:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12612; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:00:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306175911.00df3c40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 18:00:24 -0700 To: Trent Waddington , David Johnson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: In-Reply-To: References: <3AA56AC1.90486DEB@acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:16 PM 3/6/2001, Trent Waddington wrote: >My point was the need to recognise the difference between the use of >"Intellectual Property" in the literature and "Intellectual Property Law". >The two are very different. The former being a philosophical argument >that thoughts and ideas can be property, You're off base already. Expressions of an idea can be property; thoughts and ideas cannot. Perhaps you should read up on the topic yourself. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 17: 6:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7ABB37B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:06:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12673; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:06:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306180433.00d417c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 18:06:05 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15013.32331.61713.830461@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306164606.046d4100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306131533.046dfc60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306164606.046d4100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:18 PM 3/6/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >The bottom line is that every time I've seen you enter into such a >debate, you inevitably wind up attacking Stallman. Understanding motivations is important. When you're analyzing or reverse-engineering a piece of computer code, it helps to know what the author intended to do. The same is true of Stallman's actions and writings. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 17:16:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7CF4137B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:16:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 46621 invoked by uid 100); 7 Mar 2001 01:16:34 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15013.35826.538113.631730@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:16:34 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306180433.00d417c0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306164606.046d4100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306131533.046dfc60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306180433.00d417c0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 05:18 PM 3/6/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >The bottom line is that every time I've seen you enter into such a > >debate, you inevitably wind up attacking Stallman. > Understanding motivations is important. When you're analyzing or > reverse-engineering a piece of computer code, it helps to know > what the author intended to do. The same is true of Stallman's > actions and writings. I answered that one in the very first message in the thread: While trying to understand other peoples motivations is generally a good idea, discussing them - especially in such negative terms - isn't. Accusations of hatred, hidden agendas, and similar things belong in conspiracy theory debates, not rational debate. Whether or not they are true isn't really relevant - only a fool would discount an idea based only on the source. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 17:17:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FAC537B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:17:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12781; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:16:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306181543.00d60a30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 18:16:53 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , rjesup@wgate.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND Cc: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters), mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), dillon@earth.backplane.com (Matt Dillon), bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200103062353.QAA02845@usr05.primenet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:53 PM 3/6/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >I think people are using "binary file recovery is hard" as code >for "I didn't do backups, and humans can at least salvage some >data from a corrupt text file, if it's not too corrupt". Or, maybe, for "I'm too lazy to write a good, robust editor that can handle the file format, won't go crazy if there's corruption, and will let a human fix corrupted files." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 17:49: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 884B537B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:48:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA19258; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:42:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAx4aaEL; Tue Mar 6 18:42:15 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06002; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:48:39 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200103070148.SAA06002@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 01:48:39 +0000 (GMT) Cc: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz), mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306174928.00d45220@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Mar 06, 2001 05:53:58 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I disagree. I think that there is a general consensus that authors do > have moral rights, and at least some of the current laws are honest > efforts to protect them. The DMCA is not one of those laws, though. Authors do not have moral rights; they have legal rights, granted to them under law, such law in the United States being an instrumentality of Article I, Section 8, Clause 8 of the U.S. Constitution: To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries; That "Right" is a legal right, not a moral right. If "intellectual property" were real property, as AT&T tried to claim in their lawsuit against UCB, and as they pretended when they distributed their "cease and desist" letters, then, like any real property, I could establish a proscriptive lien through adverse use. In other words, I could claim "squatters rights", since AT&T did not prevent me from using their "trade secrets" for more than a year. I would _dearly_ love for some court to screw up somewhere, and declare intellectual property to be real property. One thing that would be immediately interesting, should that happen, is that all patent and copyright assignments would become invalid, without a bill of sale, transfer of title, or deed (even selling mineral rights requires these things). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 17:51:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43CA037B720 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:51:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id TAA67976988 Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:45:02 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA46571; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:51:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:51:30 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Mike Meyer Cc: Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010306175130.B46410@darkstar.gte.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306180433.00d417c0@localhost> <15013.35826.538113.631730@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <15013.35826.538113.631730@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 07:16:34PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 07:16:34PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > Brett Glass types: > > At 05:18 PM 3/6/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > >The bottom line is that every time I've seen you enter into such a > > >debate, you inevitably wind up attacking Stallman. > > Understanding motivations is important. When you're analyzing or > > reverse-engineering a piece of computer code, it helps to know > > what the author intended to do. The same is true of Stallman's > > actions and writings. > > I answered that one in the very first message in the thread: > > While trying to understand other peoples motivations is generally a > good idea, discussing them - especially in such negative terms - > isn't. > > Accusations of hatred, hidden agendas, and similar things belong in > conspiracy theory debates, not rational debate. Whether or not they > are true isn't really relevant - only a fool would discount an idea > based only on the source. There is the problem. I'm on freebsd-chat, not freebsd-rational-debate. [RC] > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 18: 8: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C85F337B71D for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:07:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13346; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:07:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306190623.00d6c4b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 19:07:30 -0700 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15013.35826.538113.631730@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306180433.00d417c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306164606.046d4100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306131533.046dfc60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306180433.00d417c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:16 PM 3/6/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Accusations of hatred, hidden agendas, and similar things belong in >conspiracy theory debates, not rational debate. Stallman's agenda is not hidden. I make no "accusations;" I merely report the facts. Which are material, important, and relevant. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 18:40:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns3.tstt.net.tt (ns3.tstt.net.tt [196.3.132.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E6E0E37B71A for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:40:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dchulhan@uwi.tt) Received: (qmail 71254 invoked by uid 0); 7 Mar 2001 02:40:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO uwi.tt) (209.94.221.24) by ns3.tstt.net.tt with SMTP; 7 Mar 2001 02:40:38 -0000 Message-ID: <3AA59F98.C256449E@uwi.tt> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:40:24 -0400 From: Dale Chulhan - Home Organization: COSTAATT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: _FreeBSD-Chat Subject: Confused about packet travel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It seems as if all packets from my country are heading to new york and then to canada as in this trace done here.... The site is in the FL are and I am near Venezuela ( South America ) Can any one un-confuse me? I think recently ( before the quake )that our packets were routed tru a cable and wireless core block in washington area or thereabouts. Any one knows for sure what is going on cause a lot of sites that are usually blazing are sluggish or impossibly slow. Trace follows: Target: www.hollywood.com Date: Tue Mar 06 22:20:59 2001 Nodes: 17 Node Data Node Net Who IP Address Location Node Name 1 - - 209.94.221.24 PORT-OF-SPAIN hidden 2 1 - 209.94.203.82 Unknown 3 1 - 209.94.203.81 Unknown stag-rt.tstt.net.tt 4 2 - 196.3.133.73 Unknown 5 3 1 207.45.207.225 East York if-9-1.bb1.scarborough.teleglobe.net 6 3 1 207.45.220.129 East York if-5-0.core1.scarborough.teleglobe.net 7 3 1 207.45.222.22 New York, NY, US if-6-0.bb8.newyork.teleglobe.net 8 4 2 144.232.173.129 New York, NY, US sl-gw9-nyc-7-0.sprintlink.net 9 4 2 144.232.7.93 New York, NY, US sl-bb20-nyc-3-0.sprintlink.net 10 4 2 144.232.7.102 New York, NY, US sl-bb22-nyc-14-0-2480m.sprintlink.net 11 4 2 144.232.18.26 39.133N, 76.417W sl-bb20-rly-15-0.sprintlink.net 12 4 2 144.232.8.38 Orlando sl-bb11-orl-6-0.sprintlink.net 13 4 - 144.232.2.241 Unknown 14 4 - 144.232.2.166 Unknown 15 4 2 144.232.152.2 Unknown sl-cybergate-3-0-0-t3.sprintlink.net 16 5 3 216.219.251.33 Unknown ftl-core1a-v6.valueweb.com 17 5 4 216.219.242.10 Unknown www.hollywood.com Network Data Network id#: 1 TSTT ISP (NETBLK-TSTT-209-94-203-80) 1 Edward St. Port-of-Spain, TT Network id#: 2 Telecommunications Services of Trinidad and Tobago Ltd (NETBLK-TSTT-196-3-133) 54 Frederick Street Port-of-Spain, TT Network id#: 3 Teleglobe Inc. (NETBLK-GLOBEINTERNET2) 1000, rue de La Gauchetiere ouest Montreal, QC H3B 4X5 CA Network id#: 4 Sprint/United Information Service (NET-SPRINT-INNET9) 13221 Woodland Park Road Herndon, VA 22071 US Network id#: 5 CyberGate, Inc. (NETBLK-GATE-CIDR-3) 3250 W. Commercial Blvd. Suite 200 Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33309 US Whois Data Whois id#: 1 Registrant: Teleglobe Canada Inc. (TELEGLOBE2-DOM) 1000, rue de La Gauchetiere ouest Montreal, QC H3B 4X5 CANADA Whois id#: 2 Registrant: Sprint Business Operations (SPRINTLINK-DOM) 12490 Sunrise Valley Dr Reston, VA 22090 US To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 18:45:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ECF9F37B71B for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:45:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 48647 invoked by uid 100); 7 Mar 2001 02:45:30 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15013.41162.568273.528953@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 20:45:30 -0600 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306190623.00d6c4b0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306180433.00d417c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306164606.046d4100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306131533.046dfc60@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306190623.00d6c4b0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 06:16 PM 3/6/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Accusations of hatred, hidden agendas, and similar things belong in > >conspiracy theory debates, not rational debate. > Stallman's agenda is not hidden. I make no "accusations;" I merely > report the facts. Which are material, important, and relevant. Possibly, but you do so using offensive epithets and invective. That's mudslinging, and detracts from any point you may have had. It also replaces the issues with personalities. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 19:23:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2185837B71B for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:23:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f273NK702132; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 04:23:20 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3AA59F98.C256449E@uwi.tt> References: <3AA59F98.C256449E@uwi.tt> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 04:22:45 +0100 To: Dale Chulhan - Home , _FreeBSD-Chat From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Confused about packet travel Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:40 PM -0400 3/6/01, Dale Chulhan - Home wrote: > It seems as if all packets from my country are heading to new york and > then to canada as in this trace done here.... At least you can get there. Trying from Belgium, I don't seem to be able to get there at all (at least, not with traceroute), although I don't appear to take a side-road through Canada to at least get down somewhere in the Florida area: Start: 3/7/01 4:19:25 AM Find route from: 194.78.241.123 to: www.hollywood.com (216.219.242.10), Max 30 hops, 40 byte packets Host Names truncated to 32 bytes 1 194.78.241.121 (194.78.241.121 ): 4ms 4ms 4ms 2 192.168.2.1 (192.168.2.1 ): 25ms 31ms 24ms 3 core2-fastethernet4-0-0.marais.b (195.13.8.161 ): 25ms 195ms 27ms 4 mar1-atm8-0-2.car.belbone.be. (195.13.0.102 ): 25ms 25ms 25ms 5 pai1-atm3-0-3.car.belbone.be. (195.13.0.85 ): 26ms 26ms 26ms 6 usa1-serial5-0.car.belbone.be. (195.13.0.238 ): 114ms 111ms 112ms 7 p6-1.nycmny1-cr10.bbnplanet.net. (4.24.189.149 ): 112ms 113ms 112ms 8 p1-0.nycmny1-nbr2.bbnplanet.net. (4.24.8.169 ): 113ms 112ms 112ms 9 p1-0.nycmny1-br2.bbnplanet.net. (4.24.10.86 ): 113ms 112ms 114ms 10 p7-0.nycmny1-ba2.bbnplanet.net. (4.24.6.234 ): 114ms 111ms 111ms 11 192.205.32.153 (192.205.32.153 ): 105ms 106ms 106ms 12 gbr3-p50.n54ny.ip.att.net. (12.123.1.122 ): 113ms 113ms 114ms 13 gbr3-p30.wswdc.ip.att.net. (12.122.2.166 ): 119ms 119ms 119ms 14 gbr4-p60.wswdc.ip.att.net. (12.122.1.130 ): 120ms 120ms 119ms 15 gbr4-p90.attga.ip.att.net. (12.122.2.177 ): 135ms 136ms 135ms 16 gbr3-p60.attga.ip.att.net. (12.122.1.141 ): 136ms 136ms 135ms 17 gbr4-p40.ormfl.ip.att.net. (12.122.2.182 ): 144ms 144ms 145ms 18 gbr2-p100.ormfl.ip.att.net. (12.122.5.134 ): 144ms 144ms 145ms 19 ar5-p3110.ormfl.ip.att.net. (12.123.32.94 ): 144ms 145ms 163ms 20 12.126.145.42 (12.126.145.42 ): 154ms 152ms 152ms 21 ftl-core1a-v5.valueweb.com. (216.219.251.1 ): 298ms 238ms 228ms 22 * * * -- ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 19:24: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BB4537B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:24:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fanf@dotat.at) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #3) id 14aUYK-000Fq2-00; Wed, 07 Mar 2001 03:23:52 +0000 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 03:23:52 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010307032352.R412@hand.dotat.at> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306174928.00d45220@localhost> <200103070148.SAA06002@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200103070148.SAA06002@usr05.primenet.com> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > >Authors do not have moral rights Yes they do: "moral rights" is the terminology used in copyright law, where it means "Supported by reason or probability; practically sufficient; -- opposed to {legal} or {demonstrable}; as, a moral evidence; a moral certainty" (Webster's), the point being that the legal rights are derived from underlying moral rights. This terminology doesn't seem to be used in US law, although it is used in the Berne Convention, and British, Australian, and Canadian copyright law, and probably many others. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at TRAFALGAR: SOUTHWEST VEERING WEST 4 OR 5, OCCASIONALLY 6. THUNDERY SHOWERS. GOOD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 20:48:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9ACE37B719 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 20:48:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vcardona@home.com) Received: from marx.marvic.chum ([24.17.229.11]) by femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010307044816.XBBX811.femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com@marx.marvic.chum> for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 20:48:16 -0800 Received: (from vcardona@localhost) by marx.marvic.chum (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f274nIH25326 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:49:18 -0600 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:49:18 -0600 From: "Victor R. Cardona" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010306224918.A25247@marx.marvic.chum> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306131533.046dfc60@localhost> <15013.18818.990246.193990@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306164606.046d4100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.12i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306164606.046d4100@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 04:53:41PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 04:53:41PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Again, non sequitur. My reports of Stallman's attitudes and > behavior are factually correct and verifiable by many sources. > Richard Stallman has expressed his hatred and malice against > anyone who profits from creative work -- in particular, from > writing and selling software -- in many forums, and these traits > have likewise been documented by many independent sources. I think you need to do a little more research on Richard Stallman. He does not mind if anyone profits from creative work including software. The Free Software Foundation sells copies of their software. Stallman himself, earns part of his living by providing customized versions of GNU software. He does have a problem with proprietary software. He thinks that closed-source software takes away certain property rights that are normally held by the individual. > Steven Levy's account is perhaps one of the best. Levy certainly > doesn't hate Stallman. In fact, he expresses some sympathy for > Stallman, whom he portrays -- accurately, I think -- as a pathetic > figure saddled with a deep and enduring grudge and a monomaniacal > desire for revenge. I strongly recommend his book. I think Levy was much more sympathetic towards Stallman. I don't think he protrayed Stallman as a vengeful person. Rather, Levy, seemed wistful when writing about Stallman. - v -- Victor R. Cardona vcardona@home.com "Behold the keyboard of Kahless, the greatest Klingon code warrior that ever lived!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 21: 0:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail17.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail17.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A439837B71A for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 21:00:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vcardona@home.com) Received: from marx.marvic.chum ([24.17.229.11]) by femail17.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010307050013.UAOT29411.femail17.sdc1.sfba.home.com@marx.marvic.chum>; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 21:00:13 -0800 Received: (from vcardona@localhost) by marx.marvic.chum (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f2751Fx25374; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 23:01:15 -0600 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 23:01:15 -0600 From: "Victor R. Cardona" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Brett Glass , "Victor R. Cardona" Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010306230115.B25247@marx.marvic.chum> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass , "Victor R. Cardona" References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.12i In-Reply-To: <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:46:19PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:46:19PM +0100, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > That's balls. I won't suggest you don't know what you're talking > about, because you obviously do, it's just that you're willing to > distort anything to suit your own hate-Richard-Stallman agenda. > > Richard Stallman woke up to all this in 1984 or so. The trends > towards extending copyrights, patents, etc started much earlier -- I > think by the middle of the 20th century copyright already lasted 50 > years, where it had started off as around 20. Today the upper limit is > 95, and that will change before Mickey Mouse is due to come out of > copyright again. The practice of companies purchasing copyrights from > creators had been in existence for a long time. Patenting of ideas as > opposed to inventions, in particular software patents, already existed > in the US. I regard all of this as a severe distortion of the > original ideas behind copyright/patent/any "intellectual property" > protection. Stallman was not the cause of all this, but the > consequence, and I wish there were more people sticking their necks > out against it. I couldn't agree more. Copyright protection was originally granted for 14 years, and was in certain circumstances extended for another 14. It remained that way until the early 20th century when the length of time was doubled. Since then, there has been a steady expansion of the length of copyright protection. The 95 years mentioned above only applies to software. Books are copyrighted for the life of the author plus 70 years. Artists and scientists should be compensated for their work. There is no question about that. The problem is that "intellectual property" laws have been perverted by large corporations. Brett wants to believe that there is a balance, but I don't see one. - v -- Victor R. Cardona vcardona@home.com "Behold the keyboard of Kahless, the greatest Klingon code warrior that ever lived!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 21: 5:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B2437B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 21:05:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vcardona@home.com) Received: from marx.marvic.chum ([24.17.229.11]) by femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010307050554.XGTB811.femail18.sdc1.sfba.home.com@marx.marvic.chum> for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 21:05:54 -0800 Received: (from vcardona@localhost) by marx.marvic.chum (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f2756u825395 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 23:06:56 -0600 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 23:06:56 -0600 From: "Victor R. Cardona" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010306230656.C25247@marx.marvic.chum> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <018701c0a67d$0b332d40$7c4cf9d1@geeksparadise.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.12i In-Reply-To: <018701c0a67d$0b332d40$7c4cf9d1@geeksparadise.com>; from davids@webmaster.com on Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 12:23:25PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 12:23:25PM -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > I view this as an extremely positive change, reminiscent of other legal > changes where laws ultimately designed to use the individual for the benefit > of society are gradually changed to protect the rights of individuals > instead. Unfortunately, the original basis of intellectual property law in > the United States was to exploit the mental productivity of individuals to > serve the ends of others. It is gradually changing to reflect the fact that > if I create something, I am morally entitled to set the terms by which > anyone else may use it. That is, you are not somehow entitled to the free > use of the end results of my labor. That would be fine and dandy if you owned the rights to all of your creative works. Unfortunately, there is the "work for hire" clause in employment contracts. Corporations get to decide how the results of your creative labor is used. In fact, they can sue you for using those results after you have left the company. -v -- Victor R. Cardona vcardona@home.com "Behold the keyboard of Kahless, the greatest Klingon code warrior that ever lived!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 21: 9:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail19.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail19.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2950537B728 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 21:09:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vcardona@home.com) Received: from marx.marvic.chum ([24.17.229.11]) by femail19.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010307050911.DOWZ12888.femail19.sdc1.sfba.home.com@marx.marvic.chum> for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 21:09:11 -0800 Received: (from vcardona@localhost) by marx.marvic.chum (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f275AEY25414 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 23:10:14 -0600 Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 23:10:14 -0600 From: "Victor R. Cardona" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PTR record for ftp.freesoftware.com ?!? Message-ID: <20010306231014.D25247@marx.marvic.chum> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010306170119.A19254@curry.mchp.siemens.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.12i In-Reply-To: <20010306170119.A19254@curry.mchp.siemens.de>; from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de on Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:01:19PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:01:19PM +0100, Andre Albsmeier wrote: > Are there others as well who can't resolve ftp.freebsd.org's > PTR record? I can't either. - v -- Victor R. Cardona vcardona@home.com "Behold the keyboard of Kahless, the greatest Klingon code warrior that ever lived!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 22:44:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA29037B71B for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:44:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14aXr6-0000JD-00; Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:55:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3AA5DB60.86A5C03D@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:55:28 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: rjesup@wgate.com, Mike Meyer , Matt Dillon , Alfred Perlstein , josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND References: <200103062353.QAA02845@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > The reductio ad absurdum of putting things in text files for fear > of binary file corruption not being as recoverable as text, is to > store the kernel itself as text, in order to make it recoverable, > since a binary file is "too hard to recover". Except the system rarely crashes in the middle of updating the kernel, even with Edge on the system. > I think people are using "binary file recovery is hard" as code > for "I didn't do backups, and humans can at least salvage some > data from a corrupt text file, if it's not too corrupt". > > [...] > > I don't see text files as being any safer than binary, except in > the case of human recovery in the absence of a backup. That was precisely the point. > I would argue that human recovery is not a useful scenario, even > in the absence of a backup. Which flies in the face of every system recovery ever attempted, including the one I got to do last week. Even if you just finished a full backup of the system when it crashed/got killed, some files may be out of date. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 23:27:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C953337B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 23:27:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14aYX2-0000K2-00; Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:38:48 -0700 Message-ID: <3AA5E588.F2606C07@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:38:48 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Clark Cc: Terry Lambert , Matt Dillon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND References: <200102200122.SAA04466@usr05.primenet.com> <3A934507.A0645CF3@softweyr.com> <15012.11507.801736.502035@guru.mired.org> <3AA4A110.5245FCD4@softweyr.com> <20010306103744.D45802@darkstar.gte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Clark wrote: > > Wes, > Have you seen any intelligent discussion of > the whole concept of whether to keep config info > in flat files, or to use a bindery/database? (Something > I could go read up on.) No. We hashed this over at my work -- building a BSD-based "appliance" -- and settled on a database for other reasons. As we get herded into smaller and smaller appliances, the database will probably migrate into some other form of storage, but we have attempted to virtualize our storage and retrieval of configuration information so we can move to a different storage manager with (relatively) little pain. We originally started with simple XML files, but they are rather difficult to update with volatile data. XML was designed for data exchange, the format lends itself to being read and written, but not updated. To make an update, you end up reading and rewriting the entire contents of the file for each update. > I often wonder if a standardized api for > storing and retreiving config info would be a benefit > to *BSD. Yes, because an API makes the storage method far less important. It could be argued that an ODBC interface for all system configuration information would be "the best" way, because you could implement any ODBC back-end to store the bits somewhere. > This whole subject seems like an unimaginably > big can o worms. > > Even the staunchest advocates of the bindery/ > registry don't get it completely right. (as far as I've > seen anyway.) Matt Dillon has a good point that clumping different kinds of data into one store just because they're "configuration" data is ill-conceived. I agree, the temporal proximity in terms of when the data is accessed in the boot process doesn't make it a good candidate being lumped together in the same file. Considering each piece of system configuration data as an object, reviewing its internal and external attributes (what kind of object is it, how often is it accessed, how often is it updated, are there other closely related bits of information that might be attributes of the same object, etc.) is an excellent exercise, if it yeilds some working code or design information. From my experience, designing our configuration in terms of a relational database was a good exercise, because it got us to think about the data in terms of what it represents, and the relationships between the data. Going from the design we have now, which is documented in the form of comment SQL command files, to any other data store, would be a straight- forward task. We might even pick up some speed along the way. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 6 23:54:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48BEF37B718 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2001 23:54:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16704; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:54:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010307005038.04719e10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:54:40 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Cc: In-Reply-To: <011801c0a6bc$3c439b60$7c4cf9d1@geeksparadise.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305004222.00cfe2a0@localhost> <20010305134937.K80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305114235.046da630@localhost> <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <15013.13530.718675.101675@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306174928.00d45220@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:08 PM 3/6/2001, David Schwartz wrote: > I'm not sure what you're referring to, and I'm not sure it's >particularly relevant to this thread. But most of the efforts I've seen to >preserve authors "moral rights" have been attempts to limit author's ability >to assign rights to their work. This is not generally true. However, there are a few rights which are, under the Berne Convention, considered to be "inalienable." Any contract which gives those rights away is per se unconscionable. This principle is common in many areas -- not just intellectual property law. For example, most jurisdictions make certain onerous terms that landlords try to slip into leases unenforceable because they're unconscionable. And that's a good thing, IMHO. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 0:30:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C743137B71F for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:30:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA04649; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 01:27:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAHFa4dj; Wed Mar 7 01:27:15 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA13983; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 01:30:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200103070830.BAA13983@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again To: dot@dotat.at (Tony Finch) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 08:30:27 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010307032352.R412@hand.dotat.at> from "Tony Finch" at Mar 07, 2001 03:23:52 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Authors do not have moral rights > > Yes they do: "moral rights" is the terminology used in copyright law, > where it means "Supported by reason or probability; practically > sufficient; -- opposed to {legal} or {demonstrable}; as, a moral > evidence; a moral certainty" (Webster's), the point being that the > legal rights are derived from underlying moral rights. > > This terminology doesn't seem to be used in US law, although it is > used in the Berne Convention, and British, Australian, and Canadian > copyright law, and probably many others. I guess that's because the other countries don't want to promote progress in the useful arts and sciences. 8-). That's as it may be in other countries, but U.S. law acknowledges no "moral rights" to accompany authorship. The closest parallel in U.S. law is the acknowledgement of "unalienable rights" (none of which include rights related to authorship). Inalienable rights are considered to be rights which can not be divorced from the condition of being human: those rights which one can not give away or otherwise have removed from them. Moral rights are profoundly different, in that they are granted by society, and society may place limitations on them. Realize that the U.S. Constitution doesn't use this language directly itself; it is the declaration of independence which makes the claim: We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ...in other words, the United States is very different from most countries in its fundamental basis for law. I guess the easiest way to reconcile this is that in the U.S., the legal rights are granted, whereas in countries where it is a moral right, the government has the ability to abridge them. Your point about the Berne convention and other treaties is well taken: people who wish to reform U.S. intellectual property law need to realize that the U.S. is still bound by treaty to uphold the intellectual property law of other treaty signatories. This basically means that even if the U.S. were to, say, abolish the patent system entirely, people could still file patents in foreign countries, which the U.S. would be treaty bound to enforce. So "fixing" U.S. IP law is not the "piece of cake" some would make it out to be. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 0:40:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A8A837B719 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:40:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA12103; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 01:34:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA2FaaMx; Wed Mar 7 01:34:17 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA14141; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 01:40:01 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200103070840.BAA14141@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 08:40:01 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), rjesup@wgate.com, mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), dillon@earth.backplane.com (Matt Dillon), bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3AA5DB60.86A5C03D@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Mar 06, 2001 11:55:28 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I would argue that human recovery is not a useful scenario, even > > in the absence of a backup. > > Which flies in the face of every system recovery ever attempted, including > the one I got to do last week. Even if you just finished a full backup > of the system when it crashed/got killed, some files may be out of date. You are thinking about systems which have sufficient exposed complexity that there are likely to be operators on hand to do the job; the incremental costs of doing the job are, I think, unrelated. A storage format and appropriate tools to allow severable partial recovery of the data by a human are generally enough. Basically, this means that binary data is not the issue, easy human recovery in this situation is. I'd also argue that this situtation itself is increasingly rare. In an embedded system running FreeBSD, for example, the only time an operator with the necessary capability will see te data, one way or another, is in a post mortem of a returned system. This means that the vast majority of cases require the ability to perform automatic "best guess" recovery, at a minimum, or "last change state rollback" (effectively, working configuration versioning), at best. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 1: 6:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail17.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail17.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A19F37B718 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 01:06:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vcardona@home.com) Received: from marx.marvic.chum ([24.17.229.11]) by femail17.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010307090654.CEMB616.femail17.sdc1.sfba.home.com@marx.marvic.chum> for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 01:06:54 -0800 Received: (from vcardona@localhost) by marx.marvic.chum (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f2797vU27299 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 03:07:57 -0600 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 03:07:57 -0600 From: "Victor R. Cardona" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010307030757.A27286@marx.marvic.chum> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <018701c0a67d$0b332d40$7c4cf9d1@geeksparadise.com> <20010306230656.C25247@marx.marvic.chum> <009d01c0a6e0$884ce600$7c4cf9d1@geeksparadise.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.12i In-Reply-To: <009d01c0a6e0$884ce600$7c4cf9d1@geeksparadise.com>; from davids@webmaster.com on Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 12:25:55AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 12:25:55AM -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > Right. You own your car until you decide to sell it. > > > Corporations get to decide how the results of your > > creative labor is used. In fact, they can sue you for using those > > results after you have left the company. > > So it's bad that you can sell your car? Better that you should be forced > to keep it whether you want it or not and be unable to obtain its value from > someone who wants it more than you do? If you wish to sell your IP, then that is your choice. What I was trying to point out is that you don't always have that choice. More importantly, you don't always receive a fair value for the IP you provide. - v -- Victor R. Cardona vcardona@home.com "Behold the keyboard of Kahless, the greatest Klingon code warrior that ever lived!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 1:16:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 41F8B37B718 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 01:16:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 57646 invoked by uid 100); 7 Mar 2001 09:16:52 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15013.64644.204157.422558@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 03:16:52 -0600 To: Wes Peters Cc: Terry Lambert , rjesup@wgate.com, Mike Meyer , Matt Dillon , Alfred Perlstein , josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND In-Reply-To: <3AA5DB60.86A5C03D@softweyr.com> References: <200103062353.QAA02845@usr05.primenet.com> <3AA5DB60.86A5C03D@softweyr.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters types: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > I don't see text files as being any safer than binary, except in > > the case of human recovery in the absence of a backup. > That was precisely the point. I think you've both missed the point. The preference for text files as opposed to binary files is not simply that they can be restored to the original state (one meaning of "recover") by a knowledgeable human, but that the knowledge a human scanning them needs to extract useful information (another meaning of "recover") is much lower than for binary file formats. The point is that text files make it much easier to get a corrupt system to the point of being able to restore your backup *without* having reinstall the OS or chase down a second boot disk. It's not safer - it's just faster to fix. > > I would argue that human recovery is not a useful scenario, even > > in the absence of a backup. > Which flies in the face of every system recovery ever attempted, including > the one I got to do last week. Even if you just finished a full backup > of the system when it crashed/got killed, some files may be out of date. Ted listed some conditions that make human recovery an unlikely scenario, and it's also clearly possible to have a system where everything lives in one or more binary config files. Doing so makes human recovery less likely, and hence makes recovering from a problem both longer and more painful. That makes it an inferior solution. That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with binary files per se. For anything that's potentially part of bringing a system to the point of being able to do restores, you need statically linked tools that live on / to view and edit those files, and those tools need to be very robust in the face of possible corruption, or you need a very robust repair mechanism. Text files trivially meet the first two criteria (cat and ed), and for the last one they allow the most flexible file repair tools avaible to be used for both scanning and repair. Since going to binary files is going to cost something for all three of those points, it's got to have some serious bennies attached to it. Like making "ls -l" a couple of orders of magnitude faster. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 2: 4:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A39837B71A for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 02:04:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fanf@dotat.at) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #3) id 14aanp-000Fb6-00; Wed, 07 Mar 2001 10:04:17 +0000 Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:04:17 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010307100417.X412@hand.dotat.at> References: <20010307032352.R412@hand.dotat.at> <200103070830.BAA13983@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200103070830.BAA13983@usr05.primenet.com> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: >> >> Yes they do: "moral rights" is the terminology used in copyright law, >> [...] >> This terminology doesn't seem to be used in US law, although it is >> used in the Berne Convention, and British, Australian, and Canadian >> copyright law, and probably many others. > >I guess that's because the other countries don't want to >promote progress in the useful arts and sciences. I completely fail to understand that comment, dispite the smiley. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at FORTIES: SOUTHEASTERLY VEERING SOUTHWESTERLY 6 TO GALE 8 DECREASING 3. OCCASIONAL RAIN. GOOD BECOMING MODERATE WITH FOG PATCHES. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 6: 4: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DE4C37B718 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 06:03:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f27Dh2r38292 ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:43:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA13290 ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:42:58 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:42:58 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20010307144258.G642@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , "Victor R. Cardona" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010305200017.D80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305123951.04604b20@localhost> <20010305205030.G80474@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010305125259.00cfdae0@localhost> <20010305142108.A17269@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306011342.045fb360@localhost> <20010306081025.A22143@marx.marvic.chum> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306092612.00b79f00@localhost> <20010306174618.N32515@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306122244.04477f00@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 12:28:23PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Mar 6, 2001 at 12:28:23: > > I won't suggest you don't know what you're talking > >about, because you obviously do, it's just that you're willing to > >distort anything to suit your own hate-Richard-Stallman agenda. > > Also untrue. I don't "hate" Richard Stallman, though I do believe > that what he is doing is unethical. It is Stallman who is filled > with hatred -- the result of the trauma documented so well in > Steven Levy's book "Hackers" and in Stallman's own writings -- > and is causing much harm. I'm speaking out against that hatred > and malice. > > I cannot understand why you are attacking me for doing so. The > only motivations I can imagine are (a) that you share Stallman's > spite and hatred; (b) that you've been taken in by the propaganda > he has spread to further his agenda; or (c) you think you have > something to gain within the social group of this mailing list > by attacking me. Let's say it's (a) and (b). Well, I'd say it differently: (a) I dislike the unethical monopolisation of intellectual property by major corporations and content publishers, and (b) I have read many of Stallman's writings and find much to agree with in them. But you'd phrase these two points as you did above. And that's fair enough, I suppose: because what you describe to others as your balanced view of Stallman's allegedly unethical behaviour, looks to me just like spite and hatred against the man. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 6:15:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heechee.tobez.org (254.adsl0.ryv.worldonline.dk [213.237.10.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2947437B718; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 06:15:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tobez@tobez.org) Received: by heechee.tobez.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9383F5503; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 15:15:15 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 15:15:15 +0100 From: Anton Berezin To: Julian Elischer Cc: Peter Wemm , John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha pmap.c src/sys/i386/i386 pmap.csrc/sys/ia64/ia64 pmap.c src/sys/vm pmap.h vm_page.c Message-ID: <20010307151515.A7921@heechee.tobez.org> Mail-Followup-To: Anton Berezin , Julian Elischer , Peter Wemm , John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.org References: <200103071114.f27BEth75704@mobile.wemm.org> <3AA64000.5F8466AC@elischer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3AA64000.5F8466AC@elischer.org>; from julian@elischer.org on Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 06:04:48AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 06:04:48AM -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: > > > > Julian Elischer wrote: > > > > > > so if there IS a problem can they be deunreverted? > > > > I was just wondering what the next version of 'verted' would be.. > de-un-re-verted.. > > after that could be non-de-un-re-verted and the adjective > could be non-de-un-re-verted-less > the noun would of course be non-de-un-re-verted-less-ness. Heh. This reminds me of the arguably longest non-chemical word in English: anti-dis-establish-ment-arian-istic-al-y > Can you tell I just spent half a year studying Hungarian? +Anton. -- May the tuna salad be with you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 7:41:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C22037B718 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:41:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id JAA131259655 Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:36:28 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA47669; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:41:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:41:13 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Mike Meyer Cc: Wes Peters , Terry Lambert , rjesup@wgate.com, Matt Dillon , Alfred Perlstein , josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND Message-ID: <20010307074113.A47638@darkstar.gte.net> References: <200103062353.QAA02845@usr05.primenet.com> <3AA5DB60.86A5C03D@softweyr.com> <15013.64644.204157.422558@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <15013.64644.204157.422558@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:16:52AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks for the feedback. On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:16:52AM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > Wes Peters types: > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > I don't see text files as being any safer than binary, except in > > > the case of human recovery in the absence of a backup. > > That was precisely the point. > > I think you've both missed the point. The preference for text files as > opposed to binary files is not simply that they can be restored to the > original state (one meaning of "recover") by a knowledgeable human, > but that the knowledge a human scanning them needs to extract useful > information (another meaning of "recover") is much lower than for > binary file formats. > > The point is that text files make it much easier to get a corrupt > system to the point of being able to restore your backup *without* > having reinstall the OS or chase down a second boot disk. It's not > safer - it's just faster to fix. I did not intend to do away with text files. If an API for dealing with configuration would lead to different program's configurations being expressed in the same syntax. If that API happened to allow a choice of either flat files, or some kind of database, that would be fine with me. > > > > I would argue that human recovery is not a useful scenario, even > > > in the absence of a backup. > > Which flies in the face of every system recovery ever attempted, including > > the one I got to do last week. Even if you just finished a full backup > > of the system when it crashed/got killed, some files may be out of date. > > Ted listed some conditions that make human recovery an unlikely > scenario, and it's also clearly possible to have a system where > everything lives in one or more binary config files. Doing so makes > human recovery less likely, and hence makes recovering from a problem > both longer and more painful. That makes it an inferior solution. > The scenario I'm dealing with, is that I've just recently installed a newer version of FreeBSD onto one of the HDs in my system. I've put perhaps a hundred keystrokes towards this install. But if I were to have to start over, I'd have to do everything from scratch. If there were some way to track and keep configuration changes, on a floppy for exampe, then I could theoretically redo that install by putting the CD-ROM back in the drive, and using the configuration changes from the floppy. Maybe something like this is desirable, maybe its inplausible, but still I wonder. > That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with binary files per > se. For anything that's potentially part of bringing a system to the > point of being able to do restores, you need statically linked tools > that live on / to view and edit those files, and those tools need to > be very robust in the face of possible corruption, or you need a very > robust repair mechanism. > > Text files trivially meet the first two criteria (cat and ed), and for > the last one they allow the most flexible file repair tools avaible to > be used for both scanning and repair. Since going to binary files is > going to cost something for all three of those points, it's got to > have some serious bennies attached to it. Like making "ls -l" a couple > of orders of magnitude faster. > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 7:49:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2pub.verizon.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84FAA37B718 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:49:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop2pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id JAA105568640 Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:49:33 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA47689; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:49:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:49:17 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Terry Lambert Cc: Wes Peters , rjesup@wgate.com, Mike Meyer , Matt Dillon , Alfred Perlstein , josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND Message-ID: <20010307074917.B47638@darkstar.gte.net> References: <3AA5DB60.86A5C03D@softweyr.com> <200103070840.BAA14141@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <200103070840.BAA14141@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:40:01AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:40:01AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > I would argue that human recovery is not a useful scenario, even > > > in the absence of a backup. > > > > Which flies in the face of every system recovery ever attempted, including > > the one I got to do last week. Even if you just finished a full backup > > of the system when it crashed/got killed, some files may be out of date. > > You are thinking about systems which have sufficient exposed > complexity that there are likely to be operators on hand to > do the job; the incremental costs of doing the job are, I > think, unrelated. A storage format and appropriate tools to > allow severable partial recovery of the data by a human are > generally enough. > > Basically, this means that binary data is not the issue, easy > human recovery in this situation is. > > I'd also argue that this situtation itself is increasingly > rare. In an embedded system running FreeBSD, for example, the > only time an operator with the necessary capability will see > te data, one way or another, is in a post mortem of a returned > system. This means that the vast majority of cases require > the ability to perform automatic "best guess" recovery, at a > minimum, or "last change state rollback" (effectively, working > configuration versioning), at best. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > In the instance of a post mortem, would a log of successive configuration changes be more valuable than a file where only the last state is stored? Some config files do track successive changes to a small degree. Or at least show something about what added a section to the file. (rc.conf) [RC] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 8:15:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C97E37B719 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 08:15:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14agb2-000H6J-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:15:28 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f27GFSx37858 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:15:28 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:15:27 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Are we fighting a losing battle? (ramblings) Message-ID: <20010307161527.A37768@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sigh. After reading the news about Maxtor, and HP not open sourcing OpenMail right now, and .NET taking shape, and Sun shooting itself in the foot, and Office XP on schedule, and so on... I just wonder if we are fighting a losing battle? None of these things by itself mean much, but when you add Win2k's stability, the anti-trust case falling apart, and the continuing fragmentation of the open source community in so many ways (lack of focus and lack of commercial developers to produce much-needed desktop software), i just can't help but wonder if BSD and maybe even Linux will just end up as a passionate but tiny minority who insist we have the best OS for so many things, but really just end up doing file and web serving. I know the average user might never switch, but who does that leave that aren't having their needs met by the M$ monopoly? The only bump in the road I see for MS these days is their emerging 'innovation' to bind software to 1 machine. Please, someone, give me a reason for optimism. It's just one of those days. Jonathon -- Tech support: Try this. Arrange the parts in neat piles. Stand on your chair until you can see over your cubicle walls. Now shout "Does anybody know how to read a manual?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 10:20:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (yowie.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ECCC37B719 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:20:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s337240@student.uq.edu.au) Received: from student.uq.edu.au (s337240@student.uq.edu.au [130.102.87.136]) by yowie.cc.uq.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA27242; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 04:20:05 +1000 (GMT+1000) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 04:20:05 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: Trent Waddington To: Brett Glass Cc: David Johnson , Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010306175911.00df3c40@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > You're off base already. Expressions of an idea can be property; thoughts > and ideas cannot. Perhaps you should read up on the topic yourself. Now you are being insulting. Once again you are talking about law not philosophy. Until you have an educated opinion, take me off your response list. Trent To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 10:36:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pobox.inspire.net.nz (pobox.inspire.net.nz [203.79.89.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4D137B742 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:36:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bdh@inspire.net.nz) Received: from inspire.net.nz (d34-arthur.inspire.net.nz [203.79.90.34]) by pobox.inspire.net.nz (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f27Iai423565 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 07:36:45 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <3AA682CF.D0D107DE@inspire.net.nz> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 07:49:51 +1300 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Build time Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have just finished building kde2 on my P90 with 16mb ram after a total build time of 14 days ( with a couple of stops and starts). Now if anyone tells me that I'm wasting time running kde2 on a computer of these specs I'm going to be very dissappointed. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 12:56:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF22C37B719 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:56:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA21878; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:47:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAH4aGmQ; Wed Mar 7 13:47:01 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA28420; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:52:34 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200103072052.NAA28420@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND To: res03db2@gte.net (Robert Clark) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:52:29 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters), rjesup@wgate.com, mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), dillon@earth.backplane.com (Matt Dillon), bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010307074917.B47638@darkstar.gte.net> from "Robert Clark" at Mar 07, 2001 07:49:17 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In the instance of a post mortem, would a log of successive configuration > changes be more valuable than a file where only the last state is stored? > > Some config files do track successive changes to a small degree. Or at > least show something about what added a section to the file. (rc.conf) IMO, yes, it would be significantly more valuable. Not only could I fallback to a previous state, which would mean the unti would continue functioning, and a post-portem would therefore be unnecessary, but... if I had the device instrumented such that fallbacks were reported to me (with prior permission by the user, perhaps built into the cost structure for support, e.g. "extend your 30 day warranty to 90 days, automatically!"), I could do even better. It would let me identify cognitive problems in my user interface, which led to misconfigurations in the first place, and it would let me identify state transitions which the UI should enforce against to prevent "impossible" states. Effectively, it would let me considerably improve my product, and the value which I deliver to my customer. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 14:40:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73E1337B71A for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:40:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f27MT7722414; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 23:29:07 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200103072052.NAA28420@usr05.primenet.com> References: <200103072052.NAA28420@usr05.primenet.com> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 23:28:05 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , res03db2@gte.net (Robert Clark) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters), rjesup@wgate.com, mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), dillon@earth.backplane.com (Matt Dillon), bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:52 PM +0000 3/7/01, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Some config files do track successive changes to a small degree. Or at >> least show something about what added a section to the file. (rc.conf) > > IMO, yes, it would be significantly more valuable. I'm confused. Why not just integrate something like CVS into all configuration files? -- ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 16: 4:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 33F9837B719 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:04:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 78367 invoked by uid 100); 8 Mar 2001 00:04:32 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15014.52368.698752.617802@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:04:32 -0600 To: Robert Clark Cc: Mike Meyer , Wes Peters , Terry Lambert , rjesup@wgate.com, Matt Dillon , Alfred Perlstein , josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND In-Reply-To: <20010307074113.A47638@darkstar.gte.net> References: <200103062353.QAA02845@usr05.primenet.com> <3AA5DB60.86A5C03D@softweyr.com> <15013.64644.204157.422558@guru.mired.org> <20010307074113.A47638@darkstar.gte.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Clark types: > On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:16:52AM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > > Wes Peters types: > > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > I don't see text files as being any safer than binary, except in > > > > the case of human recovery in the absence of a backup. > > > That was precisely the point. > > I think you've both missed the point. The preference for text files as > > opposed to binary files is not simply that they can be restored to the > > original state (one meaning of "recover") by a knowledgeable human, > > but that the knowledge a human scanning them needs to extract useful > > information (another meaning of "recover") is much lower than for > > binary file formats. > > The point is that text files make it much easier to get a corrupt > > system to the point of being able to restore your backup *without* > > having reinstall the OS or chase down a second boot disk. It's not > > safer - it's just faster to fix. > I did not intend to do away with text files. If an API for dealing > with configuration would lead to different program's configurations > being expressed in the same syntax. Yeah, I'm aware that I'm really replying to Ted, and that the issue of the API and the encoding are orthogonal. But I felt that this point needed to be covered. > If that API happened to allow a choice of either flat files, or some > kind of database, that would be fine with me. Actually, I was thinking that it might make sense for the API to either allow the caller to specify a format, or to autosense it. That way, you could use something like termcap like files where it's appropriate, something like rc.conf where that's appropriate, or even binary if it was appropriate, and the prograns don't need to know about it. > The scenario I'm dealing with, is that I've just recently installed > a newer version of FreeBSD onto one of the HDs in my system. I've put > perhaps a hundred keystrokes towards this install. But if I were to have > to start over, I'd have to do everything from scratch. > > If there were some way to track and keep configuration changes, on a > floppy for exampe, then I could theoretically redo that install by > putting the CD-ROM back in the drive, and using the configuration > changes from the floppy. Actually, I track configuration changes. One of the first things I do on a new system is install a perforce client, and start adding files to the depot. I recently downgraded a system from -current to -stable by reinstalling. Putting my configuration back consisted of "p4 sync -f", then tweaking things where they were different between the two systems. The only thing that was missed was the user cron files. Similarly, I install new systems by integrating the config files from the master system, and use perforce to update the slave systems from the master as needed. That's actually another reason for prefering text files - automated merge tools work *much* better on them! > Maybe something like this is desirable, maybe its inplausible, but > still I wonder. Oh, I'd say it's very desirable. However, unless you're using an external source code control system, it's not clear how useful it is as a backup mechanism. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 16:26:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6174937B718 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:26:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 79025 invoked by uid 100); 8 Mar 2001 00:26:54 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15014.53710.910976.69576@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:26:54 -0600 To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Are we fighting a losing battle? (ramblings) In-Reply-To: <20010307161527.A37768@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010307161527.A37768@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick types: > > Sigh. After reading the news about Maxtor, and HP not open sourcing > OpenMail right now, and .NET taking shape, and Sun shooting itself in the > foot, and Office XP on schedule, and so on... I just wonder if we are > fighting a losing battle? Depends on what battle you're fighting. If you're fighting to dominate the desktop - or even the server market, I'd say yes. That's a marketing battle, and MS is clearly excellent at playing that game. I predicted years ago that NT would eventually win the server market, because MS has the resources to keep trying until they provide a product that is good enough for most users in that market. At that point, people quit installing NT (or now 2K), watching it fail, and installing Unix - they just install NT and ignore Unix. Popularity has never been a big deal for me. I tend to choose the best tool for the job at hand, without to much worry about popularity. Sure, it means I wind up with a lot of orphans - but while I've got them, I've got the best tool I can get. Frankly, I always look askance at lists of "what FOO needs to do to succeed", which inevitably mean "become very popular" when they say succeed. I'd rather have a *better* tool than a more popular one. HTML is a good example - I've been working the web since before Mosaic (aka Netscape) was founded as a company. The damage Netscape and MS have done to HTML made it much more popular, and a much worse tool - to the point that I'm no longer looking for web work, because the tools disgust me. Linux is another one. Those trying to make Linux popular have made it so much like Windows that I consider it unusable (but there are some distributions I think are reasonable). However, I'm all for those people succeeding. It's *much* easier to run FreeBSD in a world where Linux has some brain share than one where it doesn't. If I ask about "Linux-compatible" things, people don't think I'm crazy. > None of these things by itself mean much, but > when you add Win2k's stability, the anti-trust case falling apart, and the > continuing fragmentation of the open source community in so many ways (lack > of focus and lack of commercial developers to produce much-needed desktop > software), i just can't help but wonder if BSD and maybe even Linux will > just end up as a passionate but tiny minority who insist we have the best OS > for so many things, but really just end up doing file and web serving. I think you're choosing the wrong battle. The battle to fight is for awareness. Don't worry about market share - worry about mind share. If we can get to the point where people don't *assume* you have a Windows box just because everyone they know has one, that's a win. Even if most of them have never heard of FreeBSD, and think you mean Linux, it's still a major improvement over the state of the world in 1998. Once most people are aware there is some choice, then is the time to worry about making one. If you're talking about Open Source vs. Closed Source systems instead of MS vs. the world - it's still the same. The difference is the target audience - making system and project managers aware there are viable alternatives is the goal. Getting to the point where most are willing to consider another alternative *before* MS fails, rather than after, is a win. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 17: 5:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0366637B718 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:05:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA25643; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:02:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAApZa42X; Wed Mar 7 18:01:55 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06149; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:04:42 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200103080104.SAA06149@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND To: brad.knowles@skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 01:04:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), res03db2@gte.net (Robert Clark), wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters), rjesup@wgate.com, mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), dillon@earth.backplane.com (Matt Dillon), bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Mar 07, 2001 11:28:05 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> Some config files do track successive changes to a small degree. Or at > >> least show something about what added a section to the file. (rc.conf) > > > > IMO, yes, it would be significantly more valuable. > > I'm confused. Why not just integrate something like CVS into all > configuration files? Adding metadata in the file itself _is_ how CVS works. The checked out "view" of the file is only part of the file, in the CVS repository. If an API provided interpretation of the metadata, then the program using it would only "see" a particular "view". An alternate approach would be to put versioning in the FS, and use it to control which version the system uses. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 19: 0: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from weirdo.netcraft.com (weirdo.netcraft.com [195.92.95.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12F4837B719 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:00:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sketchy@weirdo.netcraft.com) Received: (from sketchy@localhost) by weirdo.netcraft.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f282xx504405 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 02:59:59 GMT (envelope-from sketchy) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 02:59:59 +0000 From: Jonathan Perkin To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Build time Message-ID: <20010308025959.A4386@netcraft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD/i386 4.2-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I have just finished building kde2 on my P90 with 16mb ram after a total > build time of 14 days ( with a couple of stops and starts). > Now if anyone tells me that I'm wasting time running kde2 on a computer > of these specs I'm going to be very dissappointed. You're wasting time running kde2 on a computer of those specs. Jon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 7 22:36:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A434D37B719; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:36:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from trevor@jpj.net) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f286aM227769; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 01:36:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 01:36:22 -0500 (EST) From: Trevor Johnson To: John Baldwin Cc: Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010308005433.W26149-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin wrote: > 4. You can't sell any improvements you make (since anyone will > be able to just download them, so why would they bother paying > for it), so all your programmers become deadweight as they > are not earning any income. > Solution? Fire all the deadwood (i.e. the non-incoome > generating programmers.) > > Yeah, this is a business model that I as a programmer _really_ > want to promote because, hey, food will just magically appear > on my table because people will provide it for me out of the > goodness of their hearts in appreciation for my code. The fact that IBM has released the present JFS code under the GNU GPL doesn't obligate it to release future in-house improvements under the same license, unless they depend on changes that someone else contributed under GPL. Even then, IBM and the author of the changes can make an arrangement (perhaps involving cash or food) where the changes get released under whatever license IBM and the author agree to--that is, unless those changes incorporate someone else's GPLed work (and so on until someone says "no"). Ghostscript is under a scheme like this (explained at http://www.ghostscript.com/pages/versions.html). -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 5:52:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.tfcc.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3F4337B71A for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 05:52:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cfuhrman@tfcci.com) Received: (from mail@localhost) by proxy.tfcc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA22069; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 08:52:12 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: proxy.tfcc.com: mail set sender to using -f Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by proxy.tfcc.com via smap (V2.1/2.1a) id xma022054; Thu, 8 Mar 01 08:51:59 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 08:52:01 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Fuhrman X-Sender: To: Bruce Cc: Subject: Re: Build time In-Reply-To: <3AA682CF.D0D107DE@inspire.net.nz> Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Bruce wrote: > I have just finished building kde2 on my P90 with 16mb ram after a total > build time of 14 days ( with a couple of stops and starts). > > Now if anyone tells me that I'm wasting time running kde2 on a computer > of these specs I'm going to be very dissappointed. Not necessarily a waste of time, more like an exercise in frustration... -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 7: 2:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B866937B719 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 07:02:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14b1vv-000Hrb-00; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:02:27 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f28F2Mu47269; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:02:22 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:02:22 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Are we fighting a losing battle? (ramblings) Message-ID: <20010308150221.A47202@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010307161527.A37768@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15014.53710.910976.69576@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <15014.53710.910976.69576@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 06:26:54PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | rather have a *better* tool than a more popular one. Good point. Obvious, of course, but nice to be reminded of it. :) | HTML is a good example - I've been working the web since before Mosaic | (aka Netscape) was founded as a company. The damage Netscape and MS | have done to HTML made it much more popular, and a much worse tool - Interesting observation. | Linux is another one. Those trying to make Linux popular have made it | so much like Windows that I consider it unusable (but there are some | distributions I think are reasonable). However, I'm all for those No argument here! Linux has followed the same 'everything but the kitchen sink, treat the user like an idiot' approach in many distros. Which distros *do* you like? | I think you're choosing the wrong battle. The battle to fight is for | awareness. Don't worry about market share - worry about mind share. Ah, the most salient point of the whole message. Well said. | If we can get to the point where people don't *assume* you have a | Windows box just because everyone they know has one, that's a win. | 1998. Once most people are aware there is some choice, then is the | time to worry about making one. Great points, as well. Hey, as long as the community continues support for these projects, and continues to provide the tools we need to be productive with our alterna-operating system choices, then it appears we will be okay. Thanks, Mike! jonathon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 7:19:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D426837B71A for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 07:19:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 2889 invoked by uid 100); 8 Mar 2001 15:19:37 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15015.41737.835854.904585@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:19:37 -0600 To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Are we fighting a losing battle? (ramblings) In-Reply-To: <20010308150221.A47202@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010307161527.A37768@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15014.53710.910976.69576@guru.mired.org> <20010308150221.A47202@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick types: > | Linux is another one. Those trying to make Linux popular have made it > | so much like Windows that I consider it unusable (but there are some > | distributions I think are reasonable). However, I'm all for those > No argument here! Linux has followed the same 'everything but the kitchen > sink, treat the user like an idiot' approach in many distros. Which > distros *do* you like? Since you asked - TurboLinux is the one I wound up leaving installed. > Hey, as long as the community continues support for these projects, and > continues to provide the tools we need to be productive with our > alterna-operating system choices, then it appears we will be okay. Thanks, > Mike! Exactly! http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 9:10:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFF7537B718 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:10:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14b3vU-0007Q7-00; Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:10:08 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:10:07 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Seeking reviewers for letter about BSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Last night, I read an article in April's (2001) Dr. Dobb's Journal about Linux. This article used the L-word to describe software and environments that are definitely not limited to just Linux. The column also said "the only viable alternative to using Windows on the x86 platform is Linux". (The author didn't explain "viable", but he did share some of his Linux goals and needs.) I know that DDJ has actively covered BSD in the past, but I am surprised that articles in recent issues imply (and assume) that Linux-based operating systems are the only or main operating systems to be built upon open source and free software; in addition, some DDJ articles seem to imply that Linux is the only or main alternative OS. I am looking for some people to review my "letter to the (DDJ) editor". This letter says there are other alternatives and quickly explains a few important and interesting facts about BSD. If you are interested in reading and providing feedback on my letter (before I mail it), please send me an email off-list. Thanks, Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 10: 8:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.sunflower.com (smtp.sunflower.com [24.124.0.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F4E37B71A for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:08:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treznor@sunflower.com) Received: from treznor (dv016s59.lawrence.ks.us [24.124.59.16]) by smtp.sunflower.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA12543 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 12:08:38 -0600 Message-ID: <000501c0a7fa$990247e0$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> From: "Tyler K McGeorge" To: Subject: September 1752 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 12:07:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Has anybody else ever typed: $ cal 9 1752 What is up with September 1752? I am very confused by that. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 10:13:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0463537B718 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:13:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (localhost.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f28IDMS98831; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:13:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:13:22 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: Tyler K McGeorge Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: September 1752 In-Reply-To: <000501c0a7fa$990247e0$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Tyler K McGeorge wrote: > Has anybody else ever typed: > > $ cal 9 1752 > > What is up with September 1752? I am very confused by that. That was the change to the Gregorian calander. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is to computing what a McDonalds Certified Food Specialist is to fine cuisine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 10:14:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from michael.checkpoint.com (michael.checkpoint.com [199.203.73.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C0337B718 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:14:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by michael.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA01661; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:14:05 +0200 (IST) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f28IOh858979; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:24:43 +0200 (IST) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:24:38 +0200 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Tyler K McGeorge Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: September 1752 Message-ID: <20010308202438.A58959@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <000501c0a7fa$990247e0$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <000501c0a7fa$990247e0$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org>; from treznor@sunflower.com on Thu, Mar 08, 2001 at 12:07:08PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 08, 2001 at 12:07:08PM -0600, Tyler K McGeorge wrote: > Has anybody else ever typed: > > $ cal 9 1752 > > What is up with September 1752? I am very confused by that. The Julian -> Gregorian calendar change in England and its colonies. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 10:14:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kizmiaz.dis.org (kizmiaz.dis.org [216.240.45.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A21137B719 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:14:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from almus@dis.org) Received: from localhost (almus@localhost) by kizmiaz.dis.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA37680; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:10:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from almus@dis.org) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:10:55 -0800 (PST) From: Almus To: Tyler K McGeorge Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: September 1752 In-Reply-To: <000501c0a7fa$990247e0$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In 1752 Britain and the American colonies switched from the old Julian calendar to the new Gregorian calendar. The Julian calendar did not adequately account for leap years, so by the 18th century the calendar was 11 days out of synch with the actual seasons. To bring the calendar back into alignment, September 2nd was immediately followed by September 14th, removing 11 days... -Almus -- e-mail: almus@dis.org -- Web: http://www.satindeath.net "Just fear me, Love me, Do as I say.. and I will be your slave." -Jareth -- Send private encrypted e-mail - Freedom 1.1 www.zks.net/clickthrough/click.asp?partner_id=111 On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Tyler K McGeorge wrote: > Has anybody else ever typed: > > $ cal 9 1752 > > What is up with September 1752? I am very confused by that. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 10:21:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.sunflower.com (smtp.sunflower.com [24.124.0.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EA0137B718 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:21:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treznor@sunflower.com) Received: from treznor (dv016s59.lawrence.ks.us [24.124.59.16]) by smtp.sunflower.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA13218; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 12:21:23 -0600 Message-ID: <000e01c0a7fc$60868640$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> From: "Tyler K McGeorge" To: "jack" , "Almus" , "Anatoly Vorobey" Cc: References: Subject: Re: September 1752 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 12:19:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So that would mean that cal isn't a Gregorian calendar, but, rather, a calandar of England and it's colonies? ----- Original Message ----- From: jack To: Tyler K McGeorge Cc: Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 12:13 PM Subject: Re: September 1752 | Today Tyler K McGeorge wrote: | | > Has anybody else ever typed: | > | > $ cal 9 1752 | > | > What is up with September 1752? I am very confused by that. | | That was the change to the Gregorian calander. | | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst | jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. | Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. | PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD | enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- | A Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is to computing what | a McDonalds Certified Food Specialist is to fine cuisine. | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 10:25:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (earth-nat-cw.backplane.com [208.161.114.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35B6337B71C for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:25:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@earth.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.2/8.9.3) id f28IPXe90645; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:25:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:25:33 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200103081825.f28IPXe90645@earth.backplane.com> To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , res03db2@gte.net (Robert Clark), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters), rjesup@wgate.com, mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND References: <200103072052.NAA28420@usr05.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org :>> Some config files do track successive changes to a small degree. Or at :>> least show something about what added a section to the file. (rc.conf) :> :> IMO, yes, it would be significantly more valuable. : : I'm confused. Why not just integrate something like CVS into all :configuration files? : :-- :====================================================================== :Brad Knowles, ... and, in fact, that is what I do. It works great. I have all my major configuration files under CVS on earth.backplane.com. You don't have to put every file in the filesystem under CVS, you only put the directories and configuration files in those directories under CVS (making sure all the directories in which configuration files are placed and their parent directories up to root have a CVS/ subdirectory). CVS does not recurse past a directory without a CVS/ subdirectory so doing a 'cvs commit' is instantanious pretty much. It's amazing how well it works. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 10:30: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kizmiaz.dis.org (kizmiaz.dis.org [216.240.45.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20F4437B71A for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:29:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from almus@dis.org) Received: from localhost (almus@localhost) by kizmiaz.dis.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA38028; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:26:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from almus@dis.org) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:26:26 -0800 (PST) From: Almus To: Tyler K McGeorge Cc: jack , Anatoly Vorobey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: September 1752 In-Reply-To: <000e01c0a7fc$60868640$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technicaly.. yes.. thats correct.. -- e-mail: almus@dis.org -- Web: http://www.satindeath.net "Just fear me, Love me, Do as I say.. and I will be your slave." -Jareth -- Send private encrypted e-mail - Freedom 1.1 www.zks.net/clickthrough/click.asp?partner_id=111 On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Tyler K McGeorge wrote: > So that would mean that cal isn't a Gregorian calendar, but, rather, a > calandar of England and it's colonies? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jack > To: Tyler K McGeorge > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 12:13 PM > Subject: Re: September 1752 > > > | Today Tyler K McGeorge wrote: > | > | > Has anybody else ever typed: > | > > | > $ cal 9 1752 > | > > | > What is up with September 1752? I am very confused by that. > | > | That was the change to the Gregorian calander. > | > | > | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst > | jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. > | Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. > | PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD > | enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null > | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | A Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is to computing what > | a McDonalds Certified Food Specialist is to fine cuisine. > | > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 10:31:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from michael.checkpoint.com (michael.checkpoint.com [199.203.73.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD16837B71A for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:31:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by michael.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA03124; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:31:46 +0200 (IST) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f28IgRo59182; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:42:27 +0200 (IST) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:42:27 +0200 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Tyler K McGeorge Cc: jack , Almus , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: September 1752 Message-ID: <20010308204227.A59119@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <000e01c0a7fc$60868640$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <000e01c0a7fc$60868640$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org>; from treznor@sunflower.com on Thu, Mar 08, 2001 at 12:19:54PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 08, 2001 at 12:19:54PM -0600, Tyler K McGeorge wrote: > So that would mean that cal isn't a Gregorian calendar, but, rather, a > calandar of England and it's colonies? It's silly to stretch back Gregorian calendar to a date where it wasn't used, simply because you'll get the days of the week wrong. When jumping Julian->Gregorian, days of the week weren't affected; in fact, they were never affected by any change in calendars at least for the last 3000 years or so. cal allows you to specify the date of the changeover, or tries to guess one based on your timezone, or falls back to England's date. See the manpage. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 12: 2:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pobox.inspire.net.nz (pobox.inspire.net.nz [203.79.89.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56E5E37B71D for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 12:02:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bdh@inspire.net.nz) Received: from inspire.net.nz (d42-arthur.inspire.net.nz [203.79.90.42]) by pobox.inspire.net.nz (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f28K2U610148; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 09:02:31 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <3AA7E86E.89BADF3D@inspire.net.nz> Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:15:42 +1300 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Perkin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Build time References: <20010308025959.A4386@netcraft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan Perkin wrote: > > > Now if anyone tells me that I'm wasting time running kde2 on a computer > > of these specs I'm going to be very dissappointed. > > You're wasting time running kde2 on a computer of those specs. > I'm very dissappointed Oh well at least I got the pleasure of watching it build for a fortnight To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 13:17:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46D5937B718 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:17:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f28LExI20644; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 22:14:59 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200103081825.f28IPXe90645@earth.backplane.com> References: <200103072052.NAA28420@usr05.primenet.com> <200103081825.f28IPXe90645@earth.backplane.com> Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:46:04 +0100 To: Matt Dillon From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND Cc: Terry Lambert , res03db2@gte.net (Robert Clark), wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters), rjesup@wgate.com, mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:25 AM -0800 3/8/01, Matt Dillon wrote: > ... and, in fact, that is what I do. It works great. I have all my > major configuration files under CVS on earth.backplane.com. Okay, now how about making that sort of thing a default part of FreeBSD, so that everyone can take advantage of this kind of feature, and your experience in configuring it? -- Brad Knowles, #!/usr/bin/perl -w # 531-byte qrpff-fast, Keith Winstein and Marc Horowitz # MPEG 2 PS VOB file on stdin -> descrambled output on stdout # arguments: title key bytes in least to most-significant order # Usage: # qrpff 153 2 8 105 225 /mnt/dvd/VOB_FILE_NAME | extract_mpeg2 | mpeg2_dec - $_='while(read+STDIN,$_,2048){$a=29;$b=73;$c=142;$t=255;@t=map{$_%16or$t^=$c^=( $m=(11,10,116,100,11,122,20,100)[$_/16%8])&110;$t^=(72,@z=(64,72,$a^=12*($_%16 -2?0:$m&17)),$b^=$_%64?12:0,@z)[$_%8]}(16..271);if((@a=unx"C*",$_)[20]&48){$h =5;$_=unxb24,join"",@b=map{xB8,unxb8,chr($_^$a[--$h+84])}@ARGV;s/...$/1$&/;$ d=unxV,xb25,$_;$e=256|(ord$b[4])<<9|ord$b[3];$d=$d>>8^($f=$t&($d>>12^$d>>4^ $d^$d/8))<<17,$e=$e>>8^($t&($g=($q=$e>>14&7^$e)^$q*8^$q<<6))<<9,$_=$t[$_]^ (($h>>=8)+=$f+(~$g&$t))for@a[128..$#a]}print+x"C*",@a}';s/x/pack+/g;eval To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 14:48:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from castle.dreaming.org (castle.dreaming.org [216.221.214.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B73A37B718 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:48:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mit@mitayai.net) Received: from cr592943a (cr592943-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com [24.156.38.199]) by castle.dreaming.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id f28MmC084619 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:48:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mit@mitayai.net) From: "Will Mitayai Keeso Rowe" To: Subject: RE: San Francisco BAFUG meeting for March 2001 Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:45:35 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20010308140522.A74222@mooseriver.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I thought that the announce list was moderated? -Mit :-----Original Message----- :From: owner-freebsd-announce@FreeBSD.ORG :[mailto:owner-freebsd-announce@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Josef Grosch :Sent: March 8, 2001 17:05 PM :To: announce@FreeBSD.ORG :Cc: announce@bafug.org :Subject: San Francisco BAFUG meeting for March 2001 : : : : -- San Francisco BAFUG -- : (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) : : March 2001 Meeting : : :The San Francisco chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will :be holding its monthly meeting on Thursday, March 8th. This month's :meeting will be held at Whistle's corp. office in Foster City. The meeting :will start at 7:30 pm. : : :Agenda : : ==> This months meeting will be a general meeting. Any ideas for : speakers or topics of interest will be helpful. : : ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered. Whistle is again picking up the : tab. We have Whistle to thank for their continuing support. : : ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry : topics : : :Location : : This months meeting will be held at Whistle Communications. Whistle is : located at 110 Marsh Dr. in Foster City. There is plenty parking in : their lot. : : :Time : : The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. We : generally get kicked out around 10:00 pm. : : :Directions : : : By CalTrain : : Exit at the downtown San Mateo station, and walk several miles east : on Third Avenue to the Marsh Drive intersection. Alternatively, : exit at the Bay Meadows station and take the SanTrans Route 251 : Hillsdale - Foster City bus to the Bridgepoint Shopping Center stop : and walk 1/4 mile north on Mariner's Island Blvd. to Third Avenue, : turning right one block to Marsh Drive. : : By SamTrans : : The Route 251 Hillsdale - Foster City bus line's Bridgepoint : Shopping Center terminus is a few blocks from Whistle : Communications. : : By Car : : From the South Bay and Peninsula : : Take 101 North towards San Francisco, From US-101 northbound, : take CA-92 eastbound a mile to the Foster City Blvd., turning : left (east) at the end of the ramp onto Metro Center Blvd. Go : about a block and turn left (north-east) onto Foster City : Blvd. Go about five blocks to the street's end, turning left : (north) onto Third Avenue. Go about a block to turn left (west) : at the first traffic light, onto Marsh Drive. Immediately turn : left into the Whistle parking lot. : : From the East Bay : : From CA-92/Hayward, cross the San Mateo Bridge and take the : first exit Foster City Blvd., curving right at the end of the : ramp to a left (north-east) turn onto Foster City Blvd. Then : process as described above for US-101 northbound. : : From the North Bay and San Francisco : : From US-101 southbound, exit eastbound onto Third Avenue : proceeding several miles, past the Mariner's Island : Blvd. intersection, to turn right (west) onto Marsh : Drive. Immediately turn left into the Whistle parking : lot. : :WWW info : : More info can be found at the following URLs : : Whistle Communications - http://www.whistle.com : BAFUG - http://www.bafug.{org|com|net} : : :Contact : : Please contact Josef Grosch before 6pm March : 8th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we : will need. : :-- :$Id: Mar01SFAnnounce.txt,v 1.2 2001/03/08 22:02:46 jgrosch Exp jgrosch $ : : :-- :Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.2 :jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org : : : :----- End forwarded message ----- : :This is the moderated mailing list freebsd-announce. :The list contains announcements of new FreeBSD capabilities, :important events and project milestones. :See also the FreeBSD Web pages at http://www.freebsd.org : : :To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org :with "unsubscribe freebsd-announce" in the body of the message : : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 17:28:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (earth-nat-cw.backplane.com [208.161.114.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558C737B718 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:28:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon@earth.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.2/8.9.3) id f291SRH05946; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:28:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:28:27 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200103090128.f291SRH05946@earth.backplane.com> To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , res03db2@gte.net (Robert Clark), wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters), rjesup@wgate.com, mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND References: <200103072052.NAA28420@usr05.primenet.com> <200103081825.f28IPXe90645@earth.backplane.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org : :At 10:25 AM -0800 3/8/01, Matt Dillon wrote: : :> ... and, in fact, that is what I do. It works great. I have all my :> major configuration files under CVS on earth.backplane.com. : : Okay, now how about making that sort of thing a default part of :FreeBSD, so that everyone can take advantage of this kind of feature, :and your experience in configuring it? : :-- :Brad Knowles, I dunno. A lot of configuration files don't exist at system install time. The person installing the system would still need to know how to use CVS well enough to 'cvs add' config files he installs from ports, and such. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 18: 7:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D66937B718 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 18:07:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4EAB9239A93; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 18:07:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 18:07:43 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Will Mitayai Keeso Rowe Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: San Francisco BAFUG meeting for March 2001 Message-ID: <20010308180743.N45600@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20010308140522.A74222@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from mit@mitayai.net on Thu, Mar 08, 2001 at 05:45:35PM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-03-08 17:45 -0500, Will Mitayai Keeso Rowe wrote: > > I thought that the announce list was moderated? It is, and the BAFUG post was apparently approved. Is there a problem? Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Heisenberg might have been here. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 18:51: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF82737B719 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 18:50:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f292oVI25171; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 03:50:31 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200103090128.f291SRH05946@earth.backplane.com> References: <200103072052.NAA28420@usr05.primenet.com> <200103081825.f28IPXe90645@earth.backplane.com> <200103090128.f291SRH05946@earth.backplane.com> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 03:45:28 +0100 To: Matt Dillon From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND Cc: Terry Lambert , res03db2@gte.net (Robert Clark), wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters), rjesup@wgate.com, mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:28 PM -0800 3/8/01, Matt Dillon wrote: > I dunno. A lot of configuration files don't exist at system install > time. The person installing the system would still need to know how > to use CVS well enough to 'cvs add' config files he installs from > ports, and such. Couldn't that be part of the standard system install -- to automatically check this stuff on boot, and to periodically fire off a cron job to re-check this every so often? -- Brad Knowles, #!/usr/bin/perl -w # 531-byte qrpff-fast, Keith Winstein and Marc Horowitz # MPEG 2 PS VOB file on stdin -> descrambled output on stdout # arguments: title key bytes in least to most-significant order # Usage: # qrpff 153 2 8 105 225 /mnt/dvd/VOB_FILE_NAME | extract_mpeg2 | mpeg2_dec - $_='while(read+STDIN,$_,2048){$a=29;$b=73;$c=142;$t=255;@t=map{$_%16or$t^=$c^=( $m=(11,10,116,100,11,122,20,100)[$_/16%8])&110;$t^=(72,@z=(64,72,$a^=12*($_%16 -2?0:$m&17)),$b^=$_%64?12:0,@z)[$_%8]}(16..271);if((@a=unx"C*",$_)[20]&48){$h =5;$_=unxb24,join"",@b=map{xB8,unxb8,chr($_^$a[--$h+84])}@ARGV;s/...$/1$&/;$ d=unxV,xb25,$_;$e=256|(ord$b[4])<<9|ord$b[3];$d=$d>>8^($f=$t&($d>>12^$d>>4^ $d^$d/8))<<17,$e=$e>>8^($t&($g=($q=$e>>14&7^$e)^$q*8^$q<<6))<<9,$_=$t[$_]^ (($h>>=8)+=$f+(~$g&$t))for@a[128..$#a]}print+x"C*",@a}';s/x/pack+/g;eval To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 21:26:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CF6437B71E for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:26:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflexcom.com) Received: from rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflexcom.com ([216.196.73.168]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:24:39 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by rfx-216-196-73-168.users.reflexcom.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f295QYQ41534; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:26:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:26:34 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND Message-ID: <20010308212634.R1367@cjc-desktop.users.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <200103072052.NAA28420@usr05.primenet.com> <200103081825.f28IPXe90645@earth.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Thu, Mar 08, 2001 at 09:46:04PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 08, 2001 at 09:46:04PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: [snip] > -- > Brad Knowles, > > #!/usr/bin/perl -w > # 531-byte qrpff-fast, Keith Winstein and Marc Horowitz > # MPEG 2 PS VOB file on stdin -> descrambled output on stdout > # arguments: title key bytes in least to most-significant order > # Usage: > # qrpff 153 2 8 105 225 /mnt/dvd/VOB_FILE_NAME | extract_mpeg2 | mpeg2_dec - > $_='while(read+STDIN,$_,2048){$a=29;$b=73;$c=142;$t=255;@t=map{$_%16or$t^=$c^=( > $m=(11,10,116,100,11,122,20,100)[$_/16%8])&110;$t^=(72,@z=(64,72,$a^=12*($_%16 > -2?0:$m&17)),$b^=$_%64?12:0,@z)[$_%8]}(16..271);if((@a=unx"C*",$_)[20]&48){$h > =5;$_=unxb24,join"",@b=map{xB8,unxb8,chr($_^$a[--$h+84])}@ARGV;s/...$/1$&/;$ > d=unxV,xb25,$_;$e=256|(ord$b[4])<<9|ord$b[3];$d=$d>>8^($f=$t&($d>>12^$d>>4^ > $d^$d/8))<<17,$e=$e>>8^($t&($g=($q=$e>>14&7^$e)^$q*8^$q<<6))<<9,$_=$t[$_]^ > (($h>>=8)+=$f+(~$g&$t))for@a[128..$#a]}print+x"C*",@a}';s/x/pack+/g;eval > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message I was wondering how long it would take before I saw that being used as a .sig in the wild. Not long at all. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 8 23:27:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF66C37B718 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2001 23:27:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f297RjI22594; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:27:45 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010308212634.R1367@cjc-desktop.users.reflexcom.com> References: <200103072052.NAA28420@usr05.primenet.com> <200103081825.f28IPXe90645@earth.backplane.com> <20010308212634.R1367@cjc-desktop.users.reflexcom.com> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:25:16 +0100 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:26 PM -0800 3/8/01, Crist J. Clark wrote: > I was wondering how long it would take before I saw that being used as > a .sig in the wild. Not long at all. Especially not since Declan himself posted it to the DC-CypherPunks mailing list, of which I am a subscriber. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, #!/usr/bin/perl -w # 531-byte qrpff-fast, Keith Winstein and Marc Horowitz # MPEG 2 PS VOB file on stdin -> descrambled output on stdout # arguments: title key bytes in least to most-significant order # Usage: # qrpff 153 2 8 105 225 /mnt/dvd/VOB_FILE_NAME | extract_mpeg2 | mpeg2_dec - $_='while(read+STDIN,$_,2048){$a=29;$b=73;$c=142;$t=255;@t=map{$_%16or$t^=$c^=( $m=(11,10,116,100,11,122,20,100)[$_/16%8])&110;$t^=(72,@z=(64,72,$a^=12*($_%16 -2?0:$m&17)),$b^=$_%64?12:0,@z)[$_%8]}(16..271);if((@a=unx"C*",$_)[20]&48){$h =5;$_=unxb24,join"",@b=map{xB8,unxb8,chr($_^$a[--$h+84])}@ARGV;s/...$/1$&/;$ d=unxV,xb25,$_;$e=256|(ord$b[4])<<9|ord$b[3];$d=$d>>8^($f=$t&($d>>12^$d>>4^ $d^$d/8))<<17,$e=$e>>8^($t&($g=($q=$e>>14&7^$e)^$q*8^$q<<6))<<9,$_=$t[$_]^ (($h>>=8)+=$f+(~$g&$t))for@a[128..$#a]}print+x"C*",@a}';s/x/pack+/g;eval To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 9 0: 4:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5C5EA37B719 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 00:04:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 26279 invoked by uid 100); 9 Mar 2001 08:04:21 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15016.36485.390431.9980@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 02:04:21 -0600 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Renaming standard-supfile? X-Mailer: VM 6.89 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I suspect this has been gone over before, but can't find anything in the lists that seem relevant. People using "standard-supfile" because it's the "standard" and getting -current seem to show up on a regular basis. I can see why it might have had that name before, but the name seems problematic now. Is there any point in petitioning to get it changed to something that doesn't induce errors? Given that we've got stable-supfile, "current-supfile" seems like an obvious choice. It would certainly solve the problem. Thanx, http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 9 2:55: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34FF237B718 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 02:54:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f29Assw87201; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:54:55 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200103091054.f29Assw87201@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Mike Meyer Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:54:54 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Renaming standard-supfile? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <15016.36485.390431.9980@guru.mired.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 9 Mar 2001, at 2:04, Mike Meyer wrote: > Given that we've got stable-supfile, "current-supfile" seems like an > obvious choice. It would certainly solve the problem. Sounds like a very good idea. We keep seeing that problem in the IRC channels too. Is there any good reason for naming it "standard-supfile"? I don't think we should worry about catering for the experienced among us. It's the newbies that this catches out. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 9 11:16:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lunatic.oneinsane.net (lunatic.oneinsane.net [66.42.61.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20C3A37B719 for ; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:16:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net) Received: by lunatic.oneinsane.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9EE0B15556; Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:39:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:39:37 -0800 From: Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PTR record for ftp.freesoftware.com ?!? Message-ID: <20010307123937.A59715@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Reply-To: Ron Rosson Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20010306170119.A19254@curry.mchp.siemens.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010306170119.A19254@curry.mchp.siemens.de>; from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de on Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:01:19PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD lunatic.oneinsane.net 4.2-STABLE X-Moon: The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (95% of Full) X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net X-GPG-FINGERPRINT: 3F11 DB43 F080 C037 96F0 F8D3 5BD2 652B 171C 86DB X-Uptime: 12:31PM up 8 days, 18:52, 1 user, load averages: 0.03, 0.02, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andre Albsmeier (andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de) wrote: > Are there others as well who can't resolve ftp.freebsd.org's > PTR record? > > andre:~>host ftp.freebsd.org > ftp.freebsd.org is a nickname for ftp.freesoftware.com > ftp.freesoftware.com has address 216.66.64.162 insane-mental> host 216.66.64.162 162.64.66.216.IN-ADDR.ARPA is a nickname for 162.160-175.64.66.216.IN-ADDR.ARPA 162.160-175.64.66.216.IN-ADDR.ARPA domain name pointer ftp.freesoftware.com > andre:~>host -t ptr 216.66.64.162 > Host not found, try again. insane-mental> host -t ptr 216.66.64.162 162.64.66.216.IN-ADDR.ARPA is a nickname for 162.160-175.64.66.216.IN-ADDR.ARPA 162.160-175.64.66.216.IN-ADDR.ARPA domain name pointer ftp.freesoftware.com > > Next try: > > andre:~>dig -x 216.66.64.162 > > ; <<>> DiG 8.3 <<>> -x > ;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch > ;; got answer: > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 4 > ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2 > ;; QUERY SECTION: > ;; 162.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa, type = ANY, class = IN > > ;; ANSWER SECTION: > 162.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. 4h11m42s IN CNAME 162.160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. > > ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: > 64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. 5d4h31m40s IN NS STORM.LIGHTNING.NET. > 64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. 5d4h31m40s IN NS THUNDER.LIGHTNING.NET. > > ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: > STORM.LIGHTNING.NET. 1d4h11m19s IN A 209.51.180.102 > THUNDER.LIGHTNING.NET. 1d4h11m19s IN A 209.51.160.2 > > insane-mental> dig -x 216.66.64.162 ; <<>> DiG 8.3 <<>> -x ;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch ;; got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 4 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2 ;; QUERY SECTION: ;; 162.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa, type = ANY, class = IN ;; ANSWER SECTION: 162.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. 2h28m59s IN CNAME 162.160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: 64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. 2h28m59s IN NS thunder.lightning.net. 64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. 2h28m59s IN NS storm.lightning.net. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: thunder.lightning.net. 2h28m59s IN A 209.51.160.2 storm.lightning.net. 2h28m59s IN A 209.51.180.102 ;; Total query time: 4 msec ;; FROM: mental.oneinsane.net to SERVER: default -- 66.42.61.24 ;; WHEN: Wed Mar 7 12:33:17 2001 ;; MSG SIZE sent: 44 rcvd: 157 > Trying further: > > andre:~>dig 160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. ns > > ; <<>> DiG 8.3 <<>> 160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. ns > ;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch > ;; got answer: > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 4 > ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 2, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 1 > ;; QUERY SECTION: > ;; 160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa, type = NS, class = IN > > ;; ANSWER SECTION: > 160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. 22h43m44s IN NS who2.wccdrom.com. > 160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. 22h43m44s IN NS who.wccdrom.com. > > ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: > who.wccdrom.com. 55m32s IN A 204.216.27.3 > insane-mental> dig 160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. ns ; <<>> DiG 8.3 <<>> 160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. ns ;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch ;; got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 4 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 2, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 1 ;; QUERY SECTION: ;; 160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa, type = NS, class = IN ;; ANSWER SECTION: 160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. 2h30m4s IN NS who.wccdrom.com. 160-175.64.66.216.in-addr.arpa. 2h30m4s IN NS who2.wccdrom.com. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: who.wccdrom.com. 54m26s IN A 204.216.27.3 ;; Total query time: 4 msec ;; FROM: mental.oneinsane.net to SERVER: default -- 66.42.61.24 ;; WHEN: Wed Mar 7 12:34:14 2001 ;; MSG SIZE sent: 48 rcvd: 112 > > There isn't even an A record for who2.wccdrom.com... > The above is what I am seeing from my network.. And from what I can tell it looks like they are using Classless in-addr.arpa Delegation (RFC2317) TIA -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was /dev/null and *void() ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I can only please one person per day. Today is not YOUR day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 9 13:29: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blizzard.sabbo.net (ns.sabbo.net [193.193.218.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A720D37B71B; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:28:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from max@vic.sabbo.net) Received: from vic.sabbo.net (root@vic.sabbo.net [193.193.218.112]) by blizzard.sabbo.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f29LSuJ10584; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:28:56 +0200 Received: (from max@localhost) by vic.sabbo.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f29LT1s37169; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:29:01 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from sobomax@FreeBSD.org) From: Maxim Sobolev Message-Id: <200103092129.f29LT1s37169@vic.sabbo.net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook/l10n To: jkh@osd.bsdi.com (Jordan Hubbard) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:29:01 +0200 (EET) Cc: sobomax@FreeBSD.org, keichii@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20010309131857R.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> from "Jordan Hubbard" at Mar 09, 2001 01:18:57 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > /me ponders "Jordan ``BIG BOSS'' Hubbard" > > It's worth more points if you re-use an initial though. Perhaps > ``Kaiser'' :-) Ah, ok, then: "Jordan ``the King'' Hubbard" :-P -Maxim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 9 21: 9:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44A0537B71A; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 21:09:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA72848; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 05:09:30 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 05:09:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Maxim Sobolev Cc: Jordan Hubbard , keichii@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook/l10n In-Reply-To: <200103092129.f29LT1s37169@vic.sabbo.net> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > Ah, ok, then: > "Jordan ``the King'' Hubbard" I don't like it; makes me think "Elvis Hubbard". ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 9 21:10:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6236837B718; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 21:10:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA72907; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 05:10:27 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 05:10:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Maxim Sobolev Cc: Jordan Hubbard , keichii@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook/l10n In-Reply-To: <200103092129.f29LT1s37169@vic.sabbo.net> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > > > /me ponders "Jordan ``BIG BOSS'' Hubbard" > > > > It's worth more points if you re-use an initial though. Perhaps > > ``Kaiser'' :-) > > Ah, ok, then: > "Jordan ``the King'' Hubbard" What about: # ./jhk.pl # implies root... ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 10 0:12:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moby.geekhouse.net (moby.geekhouse.net [64.81.6.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E88637B719; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 00:12:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@dhcp152.geekhouse.net [192.168.1.152]) by moby.geekhouse.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f2A8E1146735; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 00:14:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 00:12:14 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Kris Kirby Subject: Re: cvs commit: doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook/l10n Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, keichii@FreeBSD.org, Jordan Hubbard , Maxim Sobolev Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-Mar-01 Kris Kirby wrote: > On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Maxim Sobolev wrote: >> Ah, ok, then: >> "Jordan ``the King'' Hubbard" > > I don't like it; makes me think "Elvis Hubbard". "The King" is Richard Petty # 43. I don't think Jordan's little BMW would do very well at Sears Point though. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 10 8:55:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from goliath.siemens.de (goliath.siemens.de [194.138.37.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEFDB37B71B for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 08:55:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de (at relayer goliath.siemens.de) Received: from mail3.siemens.de (mail3.siemens.de [139.25.208.14]) by goliath.siemens.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f2AGtZC04035; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:55:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from curry.mchp.siemens.de (curry.mchp.siemens.de [139.25.42.7]) by mail3.siemens.de (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f2AGtZr33530525; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:55:35 +0100 (MET) Received: (from localhost) by curry.mchp.siemens.de (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f2AGtZS40867; Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:55:34 +0100 From: Andre Albsmeier To: "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PTR record for ftp.freesoftware.com ?!? Message-ID: <20010310175534.A15674@curry.mchp.siemens.de> References: <20010306170119.A19254@curry.mchp.siemens.de> <20010307123937.A59715@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010307123937.A59715@lunatic.oneinsane.net>; from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net on Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 12:39:37PM -0800 X-Echelon: BND CIA NSA Mossad KGB MI6 IRA detonator nuclear assault strike Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 07-Mar-2001 at 12:39:37 -0800, Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson wrote: > Andre Albsmeier (andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de) wrote: > > Are there others as well who can't resolve ftp.freebsd.org's > > PTR record? > > > > andre:~>host ftp.freebsd.org > > ftp.freebsd.org is a nickname for ftp.freesoftware.com > > ftp.freesoftware.com has address 216.66.64.162 > > insane-mental> host 216.66.64.162 > 162.64.66.216.IN-ADDR.ARPA is a nickname for 162.160-175.64.66.216.IN-ADDR.ARPA > 162.160-175.64.66.216.IN-ADDR.ARPA domain name pointer ftp.freesoftware.com > > > andre:~>host -t ptr 216.66.64.162 > > Host not found, try again. > > insane-mental> host -t ptr 216.66.64.162 > 162.64.66.216.IN-ADDR.ARPA is a nickname for 162.160-175.64.66.216.IN-ADDR.ARPA > 162.160-175.64.66.216.IN-ADDR.ARPA domain name pointer ftp.freesoftware.com > > [More stuff deleted] Yes, it seems to work now. They must have fixed it. Others have reported that they had the same problem as I did. Thanks, -Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 10 9:38:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1688737B718; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:38:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from europax@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010310173837.XGAF4561.femail13.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com>; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:38:37 -0800 Message-ID: <3AAA66A5.F82A4B2@home.com> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:38:45 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, keichii@FreeBSD.ORG, Jordan Hubbard , Maxim Sobolev Subject: Re: cvs commit: doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook/l10n References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd vote for Jordan "King Solomon" Hubbard, as he seems to be wise beyond the realm of hacking. As a relative newby I read all of his posts for bits of wisdom and history. Rob. -then again it could be all of that medication the doctor has me on- John Baldwin wrote: > > On 10-Mar-01 Kris Kirby wrote: > > On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Maxim Sobolev wrote: > >> Ah, ok, then: > >> "Jordan ``the King'' Hubbard" > > > > I don't like it; makes me think "Elvis Hubbard". > > "The King" is Richard Petty # 43. I don't think Jordan's little BMW would do > very well at Sears Point though. > > > > -- > > John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ > PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 10 11:58:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7D1737B718 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:58:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA88042; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:58:00 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:58:00 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Rob Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jordan Hubbard Subject: Re: cvs commit: doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook/l10n In-Reply-To: <3AAA66A5.F82A4B2@home.com> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Rob wrote: > I'd vote for Jordan "King Solomon" Hubbard, as he seems to be wise > beyond the realm of hacking. As a relative newby I read all of his > posts for bits of wisdom and history. Rob. -then again it could be > all of that medication the doctor has me on- I'm sure that after that post, a few people (my self included) are thinking of King Midas.... ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 10 20: 8:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zeus.carroll.com (zeus.carroll.com [199.224.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C19A937B718 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:08:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from damien@sprig.tougas.net) Received: from sprig.tougas.net [216.44.20.42] by zeus.carroll.com with ESMTP (8.9.3/0) id XAA73734; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:08:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from damien@localhost) by sprig.tougas.net (8.11.2/8.11.1) id f2B47QM09391 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:07:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from damien) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:07:25 -0500 From: Damien Tougas To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Looking for Yoda Message-ID: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am in the process of learning C programming, but I seem to running up against a bit of a problem: I have nothing to program. I have books, tried the exercises, but always with the same result. I get bored very quickly, the exercises don't interest me much at all. I have programming experience in a variety of languages, including Fortran, Perl, Bourne shell, PHP, as well as some SQL programming experience. The way I was able to learn those was out of necessity; I had a project that I needed to do, so I learned as I worked on the project. I would start on the easier parts first, then grow on to the more complex ones as my skills improved. I guess one might question why I am wasting my time if I have nothing to program that interests me. Well, there are actually several reasons. First of all, I am a full time FreeBSD systems administrator, and I am finding that my lack of C programming knowledge is probably the biggest obstacle in my path right now. My job does not actually require me to do C programming, but I can't count how many times I could have solved a problem had I the proper programming experience. Secondly, I love programming. This reason is quite self explanatory. Thirdly, I want to understand FreeBSD at a deeper level, and perhaps one day even contribute to the project in some meaningful way. What I think I need is a mentor. Someone who is experienced, working on an interesting project (preferably FreeBSD related), and who is obviously willing to take the time to work with someone such as myself. Someone who could give me a task, and check over my work along the way; not hand holding, just guidance. I know that there are a million different projects at sourceforge, but the tough part is actually finding someone to work with in that sort of relationship. Are there any mentors out there? Are there other approaches out there that people have taken that they have found successful? -- Damien Tougas Systems Administrator Carroll-Net, Inc. http://www.carroll.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 10 20:31:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E698437B718 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:30:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA54840; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 22:30:55 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 22:30:54 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt X-Sender: dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/units units.1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2 Mar 2001, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: :running a slight fever that day. I'm not complaining, though - "101 :Farenheit degrees" doesn't sound quite as cool as "99.9 Farenheit :degrees" : :DES (it may be normal but it isn't quite...) Thanks for making me dig up my copy of that CD and listen to it. It'd been a long time. David : -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 10 23: 8:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.sunflower.com (smtp.sunflower.com [24.124.0.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6CC37B718 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:08:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from treznor@sunflower.com) Received: from treznor (dv016s59.lawrence.ks.us [24.124.59.16]) by smtp.sunflower.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA19189; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 01:08:02 -0600 Message-ID: <000601c0a9f9$31b88120$103b7c18@palisor.yi.org> From: "Tyler K McGeorge" To: "Damien Tougas" , References: <20010310230724.A292@sprig.tougas.net> Subject: Re: Looking for Yoda Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 01:02:10 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Damien Tougas Subject: Looking for Yoda | I am in the process of learning C programming, but I seem to running | up against a bit of a problem: I have nothing to program. I seem to have the same problem. I've learned several languages, but all on personal projects. By the time I got to C, I ran out of projects. My roommate is relatively fluent with C, but he usually just laughs at me when I ask him about something. But other than that, he's fairly helpful when it comes to getting answers, you just have to put up with the ridicule. If you find a mentor... And he has a friend... Hook me up. :P Tyler To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message