From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 15 0:14:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A0237B443 for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:14:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f3F7Cn208081; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 09:12:50 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15064.49780.575271.567653@guru.mired.org> References: <15064.49780.575271.567653@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 08:53:47 +0200 To: Mike Meyer From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Cc: Kris Kirby , Terry Lambert , Rahul Siddharthan , Brett Glass , Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:34 PM -0500 4/14/01, Mike Meyer wrote: > According to the FAQ on StarOffice became OpenOffice. "All of the > StarOFfice source code is available ... ". While complaining that > you'd rather have a product than source that someone might port, would > you also complain if Sun did the port and then charged for it while > giving away the Linux version for free? After all, there's not a lot > of incentive to port a product with an expected gross sales of $0. From : | 1. What is OpenOffice.org? | | OpenOffice.org is the open source project through which Sun Microsystems | has released the technology for the popular StarOffice[tm] Productivity | Suite. All of the StarOffice source code is available under the GNU Lesser | General Public License (LGPL) as well as the Sun Industry Standards Source | License (SISSL). Sun will participate as a member of the OpenOffice.org | community going forward. OpenOffice.org is being hosted by CollabNet. I see the word "technology" here, not the term "source code". It sounds to me like they're trying to do a complete redevelopment of the project using purely open source methods and APIs, and not bringing the entire source code base for StarOffice and making that the foundation of the project. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am, it is in no small part due to the very confusing way that they've worded their FAQ, etc.... -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 15 0:19:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D646A37B43E for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:19:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 96187 invoked by uid 100); 15 Apr 2001 07:19:38 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15065.19338.850049.104004@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 02:19:38 -0500 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Kris Kirby , Terry Lambert , Rahul Siddharthan , Brett Glass , Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: References: <15064.49780.575271.567653@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles types: > At 4:34 PM -0500 4/14/01, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > According to the FAQ on StarOffice became OpenOffice. "All of the > > StarOFfice source code is available ... ". While complaining that > > you'd rather have a product than source that someone might port, would > > you also complain if Sun did the port and then charged for it while > > giving away the Linux version for free? After all, there's not a lot > > of incentive to port a product with an expected gross sales of $0. > > From : > > | 1. What is OpenOffice.org? > | > | OpenOffice.org is the open source project through which Sun Microsystems > | has released the technology for the popular StarOffice[tm] Productivity > | Suite. All of the StarOffice source code is available under the GNU Lesser ^^^^^^^^^^^ > | General Public License (LGPL) as well as the Sun Industry Standards Source > | License (SISSL). Sun will participate as a member of the OpenOffice.org > | community going forward. OpenOffice.org is being hosted by CollabNet. > > I see the word "technology" here, not the term "source code". In that case, you're not reading carefully enough. I just highlighted the phrase "source code" for you. It's in the sentence I quoted above. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 15 0:24:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E17E37B440 for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:24:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f3F7O4219817; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 09:24:05 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <15064.49780.575271.567653@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 09:24:00 +0200 To: Mike Meyer From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Cc: Kris Kirby , Terry Lambert , Rahul Siddharthan , Brett Glass , Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:53 AM +0200 4/15/01, Brad Knowles wrote: > I see the word "technology" here, not the term "source code". It > sounds to me like they're trying to do a complete redevelopment of the > project using purely open source methods and APIs, and not bringing the > entire source code base for StarOffice and making that the foundation of > the project. I've since found a reference to MacOS in Sun's StarOffice 5.2 FAQ pages at : | 23. When will the StarOffice suite be available for Mac OS? | | The StarOffice suite is not available on the Mac OS and Sun has no plans to | market a Mac version of StarOffice software. An Mac OS X porting project is | available on http://porting.OpenOffice.org/mac enabling a third party ISV to | create and release a native OS X office productivity suite. | | | 24. Will Sun support the Mac port efforts available through OpenOffice.org? | | Sun's contribution to the open source community is to provide significant | core system technologies, documentation and an alpha | testing/visualization implementation. Sun engineers have made significant | efforts and paved new roads in this endeavor, bringing core system | technologies and native code of the application to the Mac platform. This | provides the open-source community with a jump-start towards delivering | a native Mac OS X office suite. The developer and ISV community can build | upon the Mac OS X alpha reference implementation to compile, debug, | expand and eventually deliver to the market a native Mac OS X office suite. | Sun will continue to support OpenOffice.org code through its sponsorship of | Collab.net, providing the documentation and infrastructure to encourage | adoption and maturity of this product. Again, it appears to me that they have basically dumped certain bits of StarOffice onto a web site and allowed others to have access to that content, but everything I've read about this so far indicates that this is much worse than Netscape & Mozilla, much less any of the other pseudo open-source projects. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 15 0:33:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41BD137B443 for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:33:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f3F7VYq20219; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 09:31:34 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15065.19338.850049.104004@guru.mired.org> References: <15064.49780.575271.567653@guru.mired.org> <15065.19338.850049.104004@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 09:31:31 +0200 To: Mike Meyer From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Cc: Kris Kirby , Terry Lambert , Rahul Siddharthan , Brett Glass , Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:19 AM -0500 4/15/01, Mike Meyer wrote: > In that case, you're not reading carefully enough. I just highlighted > the phrase "source code" for you. It's in the sentence I quoted above. You are quoting out of context. From : | 1. What is OpenOffice.org? | | OpenOffice.org is the open source project through which Sun Microsystems has | released the technology for the popular StarOffice[tm] Productivity Suite. All of | the StarOffice source code is available under the GNU Lesser General Public | License (LGPL) as well as the Sun Industry Standards Source License (SISSL). Sun | will participate as a member of the OpenOffice.org community going forward. | OpenOffice.org is being hosted by CollabNet. It does say that all of the StarOffice software is available under the GNU LGPL and that Sun will participate as a member of the OpenOffice.org project, but nowhere does it say that all of this code has actually been contributed to the OpenOffice.org project. You're clearly supposed to make this conclusion, but this is never stated outright anywhere on the web site that I have been able to find. Indeed, elsewhere it does say that Sun has contributed some technology to the OpenOffice.org project, but by making this statement it is pretty clear that not everything has been contributed, and indeed perhaps only relatively minor parts of StarOffice have been contributed. When I see that StarOffice no longer exists, and that everything is done under OpenOffice instead, and that even Sun simply redistributes OpenOffice (unchanged) for their own machines, then I'll believe that OpenOffice is a real open source project, and that they do truly have the full backing of Sun. But not until then. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 15 0:38:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FC1837B446 for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:38:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f3F7bmq26815; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 09:37:48 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15065.19338.850049.104004@guru.mired.org> References: <15064.49780.575271.567653@guru.mired.org> <15065.19338.850049.104004@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 09:37:45 +0200 To: Mike Meyer From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Cc: Kris Kirby , Terry Lambert , Rahul Siddharthan , Brett Glass , Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:19 AM -0500 4/15/01, Mike Meyer wrote: >> From : From the same page, this is even more explicit: | 11. Can I take code from OpenOffice.org and modify StarOffice 5.2? | | No. StarOffice 5.2 is Sun's commercial product and is not licensed under the GPL | license family or SISSL. StarOffice 5.2 is built on a code base that predated the | OpenOffice.org code. To modify StarOffice 5.2 in any way with the code from | OpenOffice.org would be out of bounds. StarOffice != OpenOffice Indeed, since StarOffice is a "commercial product" and is "not licensed under the GPL license family or SISSL", we must conclude that there have been significant parts of StarOffice that were left out when the OpenOffice project was founded. Unfortunately, nowhere on the OpenOffice web site or on the StarOffice web site will anyone answer the direct question of precisely what was left out and what was included, so that other people can make up their own mind as to just how feature complete OpenOffice will be if they should ever happen to release a build that will actually do something on some OS. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 15 16:56: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D8E37B43E for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 16:55:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from walker@gromit.ele.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from gromit.ele.auckland.ac.nz (IDENT:postfix@gromit.ele.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.216.23]) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with ESMTP id LAA28383; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:55:30 +1200 (NZST) Received: by gromit.ele.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix, from userid 501) id 6BDF63EF4; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:55:29 +1200 (NZST) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:55:29 +1200 From: Jamie Walker To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Kris Kirby , Brett Glass , Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Message-ID: <20010416115528.B29831@auckland.ac.nz> References: <20010413232829.P82834@lpt.ens.fr> <200104140000.RAA20921@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200104140000.RAA20921@usr02.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 12:00:17AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 12:00:17AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > that that was _one_ of the reasons. Another reason he gave > is the Linux communities hatred of everything Microsoft. > FreeBSD doesn't have that handicap (Knee-jerk Kamikaze > Fanatics Against Microsoft). No, but it does have a hatred of anything Linux. -- Fone: +64-9-373-7599 x4679 Room: 2.315, E&EE Dept, School of Engineering Work: jj.walker@auckland.ac.nz Home: jamiew@clear.net.nz ICQ: 5632563 or shout loudly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 15 17:10:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 02EC437B43C for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 17:10:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 14657 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Apr 2001 00:10:27 -0000 Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 20:10:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Jamie Walker Cc: Terry Lambert , Rahul Siddharthan , Kris Kirby , Brett Glass , Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: <20010416115528.B29831@auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Then why is linprocfs in kernel, why are all the linux things in ports? There might be a dislike by some of the FreeBSD community of some aspects of the Linux community, but it is not a all and all hatred, it is not total fear and loathing. /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org xMach Research Group www.xmrg.com Crystal Pepsi: sure it caused cancer, but it was leet. On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Jamie Walker wrote: > On Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 12:00:17AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > that that was _one_ of the reasons. Another reason he gave > > is the Linux communities hatred of everything Microsoft. > > FreeBSD doesn't have that handicap (Knee-jerk Kamikaze > > Fanatics Against Microsoft). > > No, but it does have a hatred of anything Linux. > > -- > Fone: +64-9-373-7599 x4679 Room: 2.315, E&EE Dept, School of Engineering > Work: jj.walker@auckland.ac.nz Home: jamiew@clear.net.nz > ICQ: 5632563 or shout loudly > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 15 18:43: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D5637B42C for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 18:42:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13019; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 19:41:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010415193720.045f83c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 19:41:26 -0600 To: Jamie Walker , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Kris Kirby , Chip Wiegand , FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <20010416115528.B29831@auckland.ac.nz> References: <200104140000.RAA20921@usr02.primenet.com> <20010413232829.P82834@lpt.ens.fr> <200104140000.RAA20921@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:55 PM 4/15/2001, Jamie Walker wrote: >On Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 12:00:17AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> that that was _one_ of the reasons. Another reason he gave >> is the Linux communities hatred of everything Microsoft. >> FreeBSD doesn't have that handicap (Knee-jerk Kamikaze >> Fanatics Against Microsoft). > >No, but it does have a hatred of anything Linux. Not so. In fact, it has embraced far too many GNU userland utilities, and has a Linux emulator which (alas) has discouraged the creation of native ports of applications. I personally have nothing against Linux qua Linux, but rather believe that it is unethical to promote it because it is GPLed. On the other hand, far too many adherents of Linux and the GPL would like to destroy the BSDs, because they thwart the FSF's goal: to leave users with no choice. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 15 20:57:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89DE937B422 for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 20:57:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA13968 for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:57:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010415215458.0447aad0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:57:27 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In a letter to The Register at http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/18291.html Richard Stallman signs himself as "Principal developer of the operating system often inaccurately called 'Linux'". I don't think I even NEED to comment. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 15 22:46:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from modgud.nordicrecords.com (h21-168-107.nordicdms.com [207.21.168.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B699137B423 for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:46:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwalton@acm.org) Received: (qmail 25780 invoked by alias); 16 Apr 2001 05:46:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 25771 invoked from network); 16 Apr 2001 05:46:19 -0000 Received: from adsl-216-103-90-137.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (HELO thinkpad770z) (216.103.90.137) by mail.nordicrecords.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 2001 05:46:19 -0000 From: "Dave Walton" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:45:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Reply-To: dwalton@acm.org Message-ID: <3ADA248B.18989.CAFB8@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've just had a wonderful idea for a new military weapon of unprecedented destructive power: Put Brett Glass and Richard Stallman in a freight container with a wall between them. When a timer expires the wall opens, causing a devastating matter/antimatter explosion. Think I can get funding from the Pentagon to develop this further? (That said, I had seen the signature on the aforementioned letter, and it does seem awfully arrogant.) Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Walton dwalton@acm.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 15 23:51:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E88C637B423 for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 23:51:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (root@ns1.unixathome.org [192.168.0.20]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3G6pke35584; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:51:46 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200104160651.f3G6pke35584@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: Jamie Walker Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 02:51:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-reply-to: <20010416115528.B29831@auckland.ac.nz> References: <200104140000.RAA20921@usr02.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 12:00:17AM +0000 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16 Apr 2001, at 11:55, Jamie Walker wrote: > On Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 12:00:17AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > that that was _one_ of the reasons. Another reason he gave > > is the Linux communities hatred of everything Microsoft. > > FreeBSD doesn't have that handicap (Knee-jerk Kamikaze > > Fanatics Against Microsoft). > > No, but it does have a hatred of anything Linux. That's simply not true. There may be some people who "have a hatred of anything Linux." but I've never met one. If you look around, I think you'll find that any serious advocates neither condemn or exhode hatred towards any other operating systems. Of course there are the "Linux Sucks"-kiddies, but they and their ilk exist within any community. They are by no means representative of the community. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 0:32:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (mailhost.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.1.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1988F37B42C for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 00:32:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from walker@gromit.ele.auckland.ac.nz) Received: from gromit.ele.auckland.ac.nz (IDENT:postfix@gromit.ele.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.216.23] (may be forged)) by mailhost.auckland.ac.nz (8.9.2/8.9.2/8.9.2-ua) with ESMTP id TAA18129; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:32:17 +1200 (NZST) Received: by gromit.ele.auckland.ac.nz (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1D8533EF4; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:32:17 +1200 (NZST) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:32:17 +1200 From: Jamie Walker To: Dan Langille Cc: Jamie Walker , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Message-ID: <20010416193216.A31543@auckland.ac.nz> References: <200104140000.RAA20921@usr02.primenet.com>; <20010416115528.B29831@auckland.ac.nz> <200104160645.f3G6jYe35568@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200104160645.f3G6jYe35568@ns1.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 02:45:32AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 02:45:32AM -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > That's simply not true. There may be some people who "have a hatred > of anything Linux." but I've never met one. If you look around, I think > you'll find that any serious advocates neither condemn or exhode hatred > towards any other operating systems. Of course there are the "Linux > Sucks"-kiddies, but they and their ilk exist within any community. They > are by no means representative of the community. Indeed not, but I personally tire of the way many in the community feel the need to measure themselves against Linux. I'm a Linux user as well as a FreeBSD user, and if I want to read about Linux there are any number of Linux mailing lists I can read. I don't need to see the regular references on pretty much most of the mailing lists hosted by freebsd.org. To my mind, -advocacy is a good place for comparisons, and the other legitimate reason for posting to other lists is for questions like "In Linux, I do XXX. How can I do the same in FreeBSD?" The IRC channels are far worse; this is why I tend not to join them any more. -- Fone: +64-9-373-7599 x4679 Room: 2.315, E&EE Dept, School of Engineering Work: jj.walker@auckland.ac.nz Home: jamiew@clear.net.nz ICQ: 5632563 or shout loudly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 1:51:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (f51.law12.hotmail.com [64.4.19.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D3837B42C for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 01:51:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdbloodchat@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 01:51:08 -0700 Received: from 203.121.16.74 by lw12fd.law12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:51:07 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.121.16.74] From: "BSDBlood Chat" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: HTML editor Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:51:07 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Apr 2001 08:51:08.0089 (UTC) FILETIME=[60D9FA90:01C0C652] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello all, Just wondering, what HTML editor do you guys use? Why? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 2:13: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A3337B43E for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 02:13:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3G9D4q32085 ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:13:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA28248 ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:13:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:13:03 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: BSDBlood Chat Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HTML editor Message-ID: <20010416111303.C27477@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: BSDBlood Chat , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from bsdbloodchat@hotmail.com on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 08:51:07AM -0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org BSDBlood Chat said on Apr 16, 2001 at 08:51:07: > Hello all, > Just wondering, what HTML editor do you guys use? Why? Mostly vim :-) But I also like bluefish (in the ports). It has an easy-to-use interface and produces good, clean HTML. (It treats HTML as the markup language which it is, not as a word processor format. Unlike some other html editors.) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 4:39:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9E41637B423 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 04:39:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 19229 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Apr 2001 11:39:17 -0000 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 07:39:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Dave Walton Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <3ADA248B.18989.CAFB8@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's actually nothing new. I remember back in probably... 1995 he really started bitching hard about how it should be GNU/Linux and then he started taking lots of credit. Of course, the original source of the GNU stuff is never brought up... So that means RMS _had_ to have done them all from scratch... Right. I was having a discussion with someone about the attitudes of the Linux community, and the GNU community, and the constant raving of how all computer innovations were open source, etc. etc. Has anyone else found any truly unique innovations to come from _the GNU project_? The closest I can find is translators in HURD, but I _think_ that had been done (to some extent) outside of GNU before. It seems to me most of the 'open source innovation' came from BSD, etc. not from GNU. If that's the case, then they're implying that GNU has been the source of most computer innovation (after all, it's usually said in defence of FSF/GNU/Linux), which is about as accurate as calling RMS what he called himself... I'll contribute funding for the Brett Glass / Richard Stallman Device Thiny (tm). Will $5 be enough? I mean it already sort of exists anyway, hey? /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org xMach Research Group www.xmrg.com Crystal Pepsi: sure it caused cancer, but it was leet. On Sun, 15 Apr 2001, Dave Walton wrote: > I've just had a wonderful idea for a new military weapon of > unprecedented destructive power: Put Brett Glass and Richard > Stallman in a freight container with a wall between them. When a > timer expires the wall opens, causing a devastating > matter/antimatter explosion. Think I can get funding from the > Pentagon to develop this further? > > (That said, I had seen the signature on the aforementioned letter, > and it does seem awfully arrogant.) > > Dave > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dave Walton dwalton@acm.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 7:43:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E2C337B42C; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 07:43:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=40ea636f26e1a62d5676ac26bcc488be) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14pAE6-0000Vw-00; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:43:38 -0600 Message-ID: <3ADB051A.17674A2F@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:43:38 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Interesting article. References: <200104160617.CAA22321@repulse.cnchost.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bakul Shah wrote: > > > > Though, a lack of good Unicode support on FreeBSD seems like > > > a legitimate enough reason for the move. > > > > Yes, it would, if it were true, see /usr/ports/devel/libunicode. > > One port does not make good support. For that FreeBDS has to > have native unicode support. Why? All they're interested in is having unicode in their web-based app. > > In order to determine if they really made any savings or not -- I > > notice that they've increased the number of servers at Hotmail from > > 3,400 to 5,000 - you'd also have to determine how much they could have > > improved the performance by merely writing their code as an Apache > > module. > > If as they claim they doubled the performance, they saved a > few mil in not having to use 10,000 servers. My point was > they didn't save *as much money as* they could've, had they > used various performance increasing tricks we are well aware > of. We're definitely in agreement on that. They did not start this project to save money, though they claim that as a motivation. It would have (most likely) been far less expensive to make a few performance enhancements to Apache itself, or to the interface they use for their application code. Of course, that would not have been a testimonial for Win2K or IIS. > > So, was that 18 month development project really necessary from a > > technical standpoint, or only justified as a marketing cost? Nobody > > outside Microsoft management will ever really know. > > Suspect the most likely cause of conversion can be summed up > in the phrase `eating your own dogfood'. Which is fine, but it's disingenous to declare it a 'cost-saving measure' when it was obviously very expensive. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 9:41:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4ECF037B423 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:41:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 7058 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Apr 2001 16:40:24 -0000 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:40:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: banner(6) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-760421450-987439224=:11039" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --0-760421450-987439224=:11039 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I was bored last night, and wrote a script which printed stuff out to my screen using the banner(1) command in OpenBSD. I sent it to my friend this morning (who was on FreeBSD) and he pointed out to me that FreeBSD didn't have similar functionality (8x8 characters printed horizontally), so I added the banner(1) code to banner(6) from -CURRENT along with a '-h' flag for 'horizontal', I'm not sure if this is something people would want added, etc., so I'm posting here cause it isn't really a necessary change, just some extra, unimportant (in the grand scheme of things) functionality. A gzipped patch is attached, and can be applied something like: cp banner.patch.gz /usr/src/usr.bin cd /usr/src/usr.bin gunzip banner.patch.gz patch -p1 < banner.patch rm banner.patch cd banner make make install I also added a (very vague) line about it to the banner(6) manpage. Thoughts? Thanks, /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org xMach Research Group www.xmrg.com Crystal Pepsi: sure it caused cancer, but it was leet. --0-760421450-987439224=:11039 Content-Type: APPLICATION/octet-stream; name="banner.patch.gz" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="banner.patch.gz" H4sICGwe2zoAA2Jhbm5lci5wYXRjaAC1XH1/2kYS/hs+xTS5xhBerBXvOEmT JmmTvji5JHe9nuvjZGkBOSARSZi4be6z38yuwNIuEgK7/jmEfTQ7z8zszO4K s3Lc8RgawRIaCwbjgPOL0GlcWJ7Hg0b3WL5pdkG+2bTLjUYjW7r0s+/BqX8F pgGsPTSNYcvA94ZRrtVqqioh/GwRAOsCY8N2f2j0SJiVnz6FRmdQN6GGr23A 5ocph7E/m/kr15uAv4hc3wvBCjhYV5Y7sy5mfFiGlx69AYdfLCfNcq35OoLv ZjAt1/4RoiCc8ujb9y+O3yy4h//H5lRYFcLoekb6g7kVNcsQ94vKTpEQ2Ypf dm6I7NL7pQc/WwFAG4ze0OwPO7HXeojsVIjModkbskSIGEUIX7oYoTIcPyzX 4GHp+dTyJjwkb248pCv0D8TP08r96nN/cR24k2kEFbsKbDDo1OG9O0e6H5rw 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Mon Apr 16 9:47:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFA0E37B43C for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:47:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3GGlgq55297 ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:47:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA45738 ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:47:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:47:41 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Joseph Mallett Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) Message-ID: <20010416184741.O27477@lpt.ens.fr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jmallett@newgold.net on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:40:24PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I was bored last night, and wrote a script which printed stuff out to my > screen using the banner(1) command in OpenBSD. I sent it to my friend this > morning (who was on FreeBSD) and he pointed out to me that FreeBSD didn't > have similar functionality (8x8 characters printed horizontally), so I > added the banner(1) code to banner(6) from -CURRENT along with a '-h' flag > for 'horizontal', I'm not sure if this is something people would want > added, etc., so I'm posting here cause it isn't really a necessary change, > just some extra, unimportant (in the grand scheme of > things) functionality. A gzipped patch is attached, and can be applied > something like: > > cp banner.patch.gz /usr/src/usr.bin > cd /usr/src/usr.bin > gunzip banner.patch.gz > patch -p1 < banner.patch > rm banner.patch > cd banner > make > make install > > I also added a (very vague) line about it to the banner(6) manpage. > > Thoughts? __ _ _ _ / _(_) __ _| | ___| |_ | |_| |/ _` | |/ _ \ __| | _| | (_| | | __/ |_ |_| |_|\__, |_|\___|\__| |___/ /usr/ports/misc/figlet (it can do the 8x8 horizontal characters too, and the web page has lots of nice additional fonts too. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 9:50: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E15537B43E for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f3GGnqO14180; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:49:52 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:49:52 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: Brett Glass Cc: dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: do you know thepayline? Message-ID: <20010416094952.D6076@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010414134614.04990d70@localhost> <36995.813376620364800.31018@localhost> <200104141959.f3EJxce28755@ns1.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010414142707.00e1ccb0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GyRA7555PLgSTuth" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010414142707.00e1ccb0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 02:41:58PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --GyRA7555PLgSTuth Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 02:41:58PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > If you can read Hangul, you can find a lot of information > at http://www.kornet.net. >=20 > I can't, so I tried e-mailing complaints through abuse.net. >=20 > No response. So, I went back to APNIC to see what I could > find out about the netblocks where the spams originated.=20 You won't get one. Our corprate security office has pretty much taken to blackholing any problem netblock in .kr becuse they went months with nearly daily reports of scan or spam activity with no answers. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --GyRA7555PLgSTuth Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE62yKvXY6L6fI4GtQRAojqAJ9jRMT6NVx7Dc2ysbd3/7fZHtpWIACgmOfq VxcwjjS+VxqJRazouVih8EY= =UNaF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --GyRA7555PLgSTuth-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 10: 1:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8FDDA37B422 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:01:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 24843 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Apr 2001 17:00:30 -0000 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:00:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <20010416184741.O27477@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ahhh... Didn't think of figlet. In any case, I'm a moron and sent a bad patch (forgot to gzip it again after I removed a Debugging line, and fixed something in the manpage), despite the fact I'm now aware it's totally useless, I can send it to anyone who wants it. /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org xMach Research Group www.xmrg.com Crystal Pepsi: sure it caused cancer, but it was leet. On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > I was bored last night, and wrote a script which printed stuff out to my > > screen using the banner(1) command in OpenBSD. I sent it to my friend this > > morning (who was on FreeBSD) and he pointed out to me that FreeBSD didn't > > have similar functionality (8x8 characters printed horizontally), so I > > added the banner(1) code to banner(6) from -CURRENT along with a '-h' flag > > for 'horizontal', I'm not sure if this is something people would want > > added, etc., so I'm posting here cause it isn't really a necessary change, > > just some extra, unimportant (in the grand scheme of > > things) functionality. A gzipped patch is attached, and can be applied > > something like: > > > > cp banner.patch.gz /usr/src/usr.bin > > cd /usr/src/usr.bin > > gunzip banner.patch.gz > > patch -p1 < banner.patch > > rm banner.patch > > cd banner > > make > > make install > > > > I also added a (very vague) line about it to the banner(6) manpage. > > > > Thoughts? > > __ _ _ _ > / _(_) __ _| | ___| |_ > | |_| |/ _` | |/ _ \ __| > | _| | (_| | | __/ |_ > |_| |_|\__, |_|\___|\__| > |___/ > > > /usr/ports/misc/figlet > > (it can do the 8x8 horizontal characters too, and the web page has > lots of nice additional fonts too. > > > R > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 10: 4:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E68F337B43F for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:04:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@well.com) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f3GH36F25077; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA02965; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:03:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02961; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:03:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:03:05 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@y.glue.umd.edu To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <20010416184741.O27477@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > (it can do the 8x8 horizontal characters too, and the web page has > lots of nice additional fonts too. *COUGH* fonts? Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 10: 4:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 20EE937B624 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:04:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 15402 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Apr 2001 17:04:02 -0000 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:04:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: James Howard Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org He meant character sets =P /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org xMach Research Group www.xmrg.com Crystal Pepsi: sure it caused cancer, but it was leet. On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, James Howard wrote: > On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > (it can do the 8x8 horizontal characters too, and the web page has > > lots of nice additional fonts too. > > *COUGH* fonts? > > Jamie > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 10: 6:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD2F637B443 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:06:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@well.com) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f3GH6LF25207; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:06:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA03312; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:06:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03308; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:06:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:06:20 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@y.glue.umd.edu To: Joseph Mallett Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Joseph Mallett wrote: > He meant character sets =P Can I get them anti-aliased? J~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 10: 9:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB7B37B42C for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:09:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3GH9Uq56726 ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:09:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA46640 ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:09:29 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:09:29 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Joseph Mallett Cc: James Howard , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) Message-ID: <20010416190929.Q27477@lpt.ens.fr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jmallett@newgold.net on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:04:02PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joseph Mallett said on Apr 16, 2001 at 13:04:02: > He meant character sets =P No, I meant fonts. Which is why I wrote fonts. For example, ____ _ ____ _____ ____ ____ / _ \/ \ |\/ _ Y__ __Y _ \/ __\ | / \|| | //| / \| / \ | / \|| \/| | |-||| \// | |-|| | | | |-||| / \_/ \|\__/ \_/ \| \_/ \_/ \|\_/\_\ ##### ## # # # # ###### ##### # # # # ## # ## # # # # ##### # # # # # # # # ##### # # # # ###### # # # # # # # ##### # # # # # ## # ## # # # ##### # # # # # # ###### # # d8888b. .d8b. .d8888. d888888b .o88b. 88 `8D d8' `8b 88' YP `88' d8P Y8 88oooY' 88ooo88 `8bo. 88 8P 88~~~b. 88~~~88 `Y8b. 88 8b 88 8D 88 88 db 8D .88. Y8b d8 Y8888P' YP YP `8888Y' Y888888P `Y88P' _| _| _| _|_|_| _| _|_| _|_|_| _| _| _| _| _| _| _| _| _|_| _| _| _| _| _| _| _| _| _|_|_| _| _|_| _|_|_| _| _| 888 888 888 888 888 888 .d8888b .d88b. 888 .d88b. .d8888b .d8888b 8888b. 888 d88P" d88""88b888d88""88b88K 88K "88b888 888 888 888888888 888"Y8888b."Y8888b..d888888888 Y88b. Y88..88P888Y88..88P X88 X88888 888888 "Y8888P "Y88P" 888 "Y88P" 88888P' 88888P'"Y888888888 oooo d8b .ooooo. ooo. .oo. .oo. .oooo. ooo. .oo. `888""8P d88' `88b `888P"Y88bP"Y88b `P )88b `888P"Y88b 888 888 888 888 888 888 .oP"888 888 888 888 888 888 888 888 888 d8( 888 888 888 d888b `Y8bod8P' o888o o888o o888o `Y888""8o o888o o888o you get the picture. Output from showfigfonts, which comes with the figlet package. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 10:13: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1615D37B440 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:12:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3GHCwq56898 ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:12:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA46779 ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:12:57 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:12:56 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: James Howard Cc: Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) Message-ID: <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from howardjp@well.com on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:06:20PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Howard said on Apr 16, 2001 at 13:06:20: > > He meant character sets =P > > Can I get them anti-aliased? Depends. Fundamentally, these are not X11 (or ps or truetype) fonts; you can use them on an ordinary text terminal. But if you're running X, and your X server supports it, you can get suitable fuzzy outlines around the individual ASCII characters which comprise each letter of this font.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 10:13:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 133FE37B42C for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:13:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 16397 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Apr 2001 17:13:00 -0000 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:13:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: James Howard , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <20010416190929.Q27477@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The same functionality could be added to both versions of banner... If you look at Open/Net banner(1) chset.c (or is it chsets?), you can see the character set that is used, and modify it, etc. The large banner could be done the same, but the character sets would be complex. Now if someone took a BMP->ASCII converter, drew large fonts, took ascii mappings of them, and dumped them in a file, you'd have a nifty way to make 'fonts' for banner/figlet/etc. /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org xMach Research Group www.xmrg.com Crystal Pepsi: sure it caused cancer, but it was leet. On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Joseph Mallett said on Apr 16, 2001 at 13:04:02: > > He meant character sets =P > > No, I meant fonts. Which is why I wrote fonts. For example, > > ____ _ ____ _____ ____ ____ > / _ \/ \ |\/ _ Y__ __Y _ \/ __\ > | / \|| | //| / \| / \ | / \|| \/| > | |-||| \// | |-|| | | | |-||| / > \_/ \|\__/ \_/ \| \_/ \_/ \|\_/\_\ > > > ##### ## # # # # ###### ##### > # # # # ## # ## # # # # > ##### # # # # # # # # ##### # # > # # ###### # # # # # # # ##### > # # # # # ## # ## # # # > ##### # # # # # # ###### # # > > d8888b. .d8b. .d8888. d888888b .o88b. > 88 `8D d8' `8b 88' YP `88' d8P Y8 > 88oooY' 88ooo88 `8bo. 88 8P > 88~~~b. 88~~~88 `Y8b. 88 8b > 88 8D 88 88 db 8D .88. Y8b d8 > Y8888P' YP YP `8888Y' Y888888P `Y88P' > > > _| _| _| > _|_|_| _| _|_| _|_|_| _| _| > _| _| _| _| _| _| _|_| > _| _| _| _| _| _| _| _| > _|_|_| _| _|_| _|_|_| _| _| > > 888 888 > 888 888 > 888 888 > .d8888b .d88b. 888 .d88b. .d8888b .d8888b 8888b. 888 > d88P" d88""88b888d88""88b88K 88K "88b888 > 888 888 888888888 888"Y8888b."Y8888b..d888888888 > Y88b. Y88..88P888Y88..88P X88 X88888 888888 > "Y8888P "Y88P" 888 "Y88P" 88888P' 88888P'"Y888888888 > > > > oooo d8b .ooooo. ooo. .oo. .oo. .oooo. ooo. .oo. > `888""8P d88' `88b `888P"Y88bP"Y88b `P )88b `888P"Y88b > 888 888 888 888 888 888 .oP"888 888 888 > 888 888 888 888 888 888 d8( 888 888 888 > d888b `Y8bod8P' o888o o888o o888o `Y888""8o o888o o888o > > > > you get the picture. Output from showfigfonts, which comes with > the figlet package. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 10:22:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2041637B422 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:22:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3GHMmq57362 ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:22:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA47184 ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:22:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:22:47 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Joseph Mallett Cc: James Howard , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) Message-ID: <20010416192246.T27477@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010416190929.Q27477@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jmallett@newgold.net on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:13:00PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joseph Mallett said on Apr 16, 2001 at 13:13:00: > The same functionality could be added to both versions of banner... If you > look at Open/Net banner(1) chset.c (or is it chsets?), you can see the > character set that is used, and modify it, etc. The large banner could be > done the same, but the character sets would be complex. Now if someone > took a BMP->ASCII converter, drew large fonts, took ascii mappings of > them, and dumped them in a file, you'd have a nifty way to make 'fonts' > for banner/figlet/etc. I'm certainly in favour of including the functionality in banner. I'd say the figlet fonts are hand-made: they look too good to be bmp-to-ascii. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 10:29: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [208.178.101.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18C3637B440 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:29:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@well.com) Received: from well.com (howardjp@well.com [208.178.101.2]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA03721; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by well.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA24336; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:28:52 -0700 (PDT) From: James Howard To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > James Howard said on Apr 16, 2001 at 13:06:20: > > > He meant character sets =P > > > > Can I get them anti-aliased? > > Depends. Fundamentally, these are not X11 (or ps or truetype) fonts; you > can use them on an ordinary text terminal. But if you're running X, > and your X server supports it, you can get suitable fuzzy outlines > around the individual ASCII characters which comprise each letter of > this font.... Look, I was mocking the use of the word "font" to describe the letters :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 10:30: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2807537B440 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:29:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 15413 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Apr 2001 17:29:24 -0000 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:29:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: James Howard , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <20010416192246.T27477@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yeah, I'm saying that would be an _easy_ way to generate character sets from graphics/fonts. /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org xMach Research Group www.xmrg.com Crystal Pepsi: sure it caused cancer, but it was leet. On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Joseph Mallett said on Apr 16, 2001 at 13:13:00: > > The same functionality could be added to both versions of banner... If you > > look at Open/Net banner(1) chset.c (or is it chsets?), you can see the > > character set that is used, and modify it, etc. The large banner could be > > done the same, but the character sets would be complex. Now if someone > > took a BMP->ASCII converter, drew large fonts, took ascii mappings of > > them, and dumped them in a file, you'd have a nifty way to make 'fonts' > > for banner/figlet/etc. > > I'm certainly in favour of including the functionality in banner. > > I'd say the figlet fonts are hand-made: they look too good to be > bmp-to-ascii. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 10:30:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4876F37B43E for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:30:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 7551 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Apr 2001 17:29:56 -0000 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:29:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: James Howard Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Damn, and here I was playing with the raster font stuff trying to anti-alias banner =P /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org xMach Research Group www.xmrg.com Crystal Pepsi: sure it caused cancer, but it was leet. On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, James Howard wrote: > On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > James Howard said on Apr 16, 2001 at 13:06:20: > > > > He meant character sets =P > > > > > > Can I get them anti-aliased? > > > > Depends. Fundamentally, these are not X11 (or ps or truetype) fonts; you > > can use them on an ordinary text terminal. But if you're running X, > > and your X server supports it, you can get suitable fuzzy outlines > > around the individual ASCII characters which comprise each letter of > > this font.... > > Look, I was mocking the use of the word "font" to describe the letters :) > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 10:31:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E08D37B423 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:31:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3GHVqq57931 ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:31:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA47868 ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:31:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:31:51 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: James Howard Cc: Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) Message-ID: <20010416193151.U27477@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from howardjp@well.com on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 10:28:52AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Howard said on Apr 16, 2001 at 10:28:52: > On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > James Howard said on Apr 16, 2001 at 13:06:20: > > > > He meant character sets =P > > > > > > Can I get them anti-aliased? > > > > Depends. Fundamentally, these are not X11 (or ps or truetype) fonts; you > > can use them on an ordinary text terminal. But if you're running X, > > and your X server supports it, you can get suitable fuzzy outlines > > around the individual ASCII characters which comprise each letter of > > this font.... > > Look, I was mocking the use of the word "font" to describe the letters :) And I was mocking your implication that a "font" has to be something the X server can render... :) I could say "typeface" if that makes you feel better. But the figlet package itself calls them "fonts". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 10:46:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9C2C37B43C for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:46:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18957; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:46:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416114300.04d00640@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:46:27 -0600 To: dwalton@acm.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <3ADA248B.18989.CAFB8@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:45 PM 4/15/2001, Dave Walton wrote: >I've just had a wonderful idea for a new military weapon of >unprecedented destructive power: Put Brett Glass and Richard >Stallman in a freight container with a wall between them. When a >timer expires the wall opens, causing a devastating >matter/antimatter explosion. The thing is, I'm not Stallman's opposite. (If anything, Bill Gates is.) Yes, I point out RMS's demagoguery, but I also do that with many other demagogues in my editorials and other writing. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 10:49: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3269F37B42C for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:48:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 23870 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Apr 2001 17:48:22 -0000 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:48:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Brett Glass Cc: dwalton@acm.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416114300.04d00640@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Gates is hardly RMS' opposite. The GPL is every bit infectious and virus-like as Windows. If anything, they're twins, just don't suggest it to RMS. Bill Gates, however, would probably have the sense to realise it was true. /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org xMach Research Group www.xmrg.com Crystal Pepsi: sure it caused cancer, but it was leet. On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:45 PM 4/15/2001, Dave Walton wrote: > > >I've just had a wonderful idea for a new military weapon of > >unprecedented destructive power: Put Brett Glass and Richard > >Stallman in a freight container with a wall between them. When a > >timer expires the wall opens, causing a devastating > >matter/antimatter explosion. > > The thing is, I'm not Stallman's opposite. (If anything, Bill Gates > is.) Yes, I point out RMS's demagoguery, but I also do that with > many other demagogues in my editorials and other writing. > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 14:53: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E58337B443 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:53:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA21489; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:52:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416155048.04c6f6f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:52:18 -0600 To: Joseph Mallett From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: dwalton@acm.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416114300.04d00640@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:48 AM 4/16/2001, Joseph Mallett wrote: >Bill Gates is hardly RMS' opposite. The GPL is every bit infectious and >virus-like as Windows. If anything, they're twins, just don't suggest it >to RMS. There's another similarity, come to think of it: They both have as much money as they want (though the amounts are vastly different), but begrudge anyone else the opportunity to make any. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 14:54: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 683A637B42C for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:53:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 400 invoked by uid 1000); 16 Apr 2001 21:53:16 -0000 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:53:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Brett Glass Cc: dwalton@acm.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416155048.04c6f6f0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And of course, HURD releases are as often as stable Windows releases. /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org xMach Research Group www.xmrg.com Crystal Pepsi: sure it caused cancer, but it was leet. On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:48 AM 4/16/2001, Joseph Mallett wrote: > > >Bill Gates is hardly RMS' opposite. The GPL is every bit infectious and > >virus-like as Windows. If anything, they're twins, just don't suggest it > >to RMS. > > There's another similarity, come to think of it: They both have as much > money as they want (though the amounts are vastly different), but > begrudge anyone else the opportunity to make any. > > --Brett > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 14:56:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6F07E37B43F for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:56:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 68584 invoked by uid 100); 16 Apr 2001 21:56:06 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15067.27254.337984.166093@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:56:06 -0500 To: "BSDBlood Chat" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HTML editor In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org BSDBlood Chat types: > Hello all, > Just wondering, what HTML editor do you guys use? Why? psgml, because it actually understands the structure of an HTML document. Autocompletion on the legal tags, a "close last tag" command, and similar features that come with understanding the structure. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 15:50: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nsmail.corp.globalstar.com (gibraltar.globalstar.com [207.88.248.142]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144D037B422 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:50:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crist.clark@globalstar.com) Received: from globalstar.com ([207.88.153.184]) by nsmail.corp.globalstar.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GBWQ2U00.E67 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:49:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3ADB771E.6198000B@globalstar.com> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:50:06 -0700 From: "Crist Clark" Organization: Globalstar LP X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FEP RFC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I guess I missed this when it came out two weeks ago, and I did not see it pop up here. This one is very, very, very dry. http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc3093.txt (In case it doesn't sink in right away, look at the date on it.) -- Crist J. Clark Network Security Engineer crist.clark@globalstar.com Globalstar, L.P. (408) 933-4387 FAX: (408) 933-4926 The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please contact postmaster@globalstar.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 17: 4: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta09.onebox.com (mta09.onebox.com [64.68.76.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C8337B43E for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:04:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ctjewett@zdnetonebox.com) Received: from onebox.com ([10.1.111.11]) by mta09.onebox.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.21 201-229-121-121-20010307) with SMTP id <20010417000406.IKSH18323.mta09.onebox.com@onebox.com> for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:04:06 -0700 Received: from [64.193.153.33] by onebox.com with HTTP; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:04:06 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:04:06 -0400 Subject: FreeBSD 4.3 Release? From: "Christopher T. Jewett" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="1BoxPartBoundary98746584618809987465846" Message-Id: <20010417000406.IKSH18323.mta09.onebox.com@onebox.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --1BoxPartBoundary98746584618809987465846 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I thought it was supposed to have come out on Easter Sunday. I was obviously mistaken. Anyone know when it's due? My Windows boot has been acting funny lately, so I was planning on wiping my system and dedicating more space to FreeBSD, but then I heard 4.3 was supposed to be coming out, and I thought I'd wait... Anyone with info, let me know. Thanks! Chris ___________________________________________________________________ To get your own FREE ZDNet Onebox - FREE voicemail, email, and fax, all in one place - sign up today at http://www.zdnetonebox.com --1BoxPartBoundary98746584618809987465846 Content-type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment Content-Description: vCard for Christopher Jewett YmVnaW46dmNhcmQNCnZlcnNpb246My4wDQpGTjpDaHJpc3RvcGhlciAgSmV3ZXR0DQpOOkpl d2V0dDtDaHJpc3RvcGhlciA7OzsNCkFEUjo7OzM2MjQgTmlhZ2FyYSBTdHJlZXQ7V2F5bmU7 TUk7NDgxODQtMTk1ODs7DQpFTUFJTDtUWVBFPWludGVybmV0OmN0amV3ZXR0QHpkbmV0b25l Ym94LmNvbQ0KVEVMO1RZUEU9dm9pY2UsZmF4LHByZWYsbXNnOig0MTUpIDQzMC0yMTYxIHgx MjUwDQpURUw7VFlQRT12b2ljZSxob21lOig3MzQpIDcyOS0yNjIwDQpURUw7VFlQRT12b2lj ZSx3b3JrOigyNDgpIDMyNC00NDU4eDEzOA0KVEVMO1RZUEU9cGFnZXI6KDczNCkgNTA0LTU1 ODYNClVSTDpodHRwOi8vd3d3LmthbnR1cy5jb20NCmVuZDp2Y2FyZA0K --1BoxPartBoundary98746584618809987465846-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 17:20:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail3.registeredsite.com (mail3.registeredsite.com [64.224.9.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B0637B443 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:20:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from mail.threespace.com (mail.threespace.com [216.247.134.44]) by mail3.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3H0Kt610193 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:20:56 -0400 Received: from CX1063714-B.threespace.com [65.14.36.167] by mail.threespace.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id AC638220150; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:20:51 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416201858.017c5428@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:20:45 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <3ADA248B.18989.CAFB8@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't know about this matter/antimatter explosion, but I'd certainly pay good loot to see them in a WWF-style Pay-Per-View fight. Too bad they're not famous, or I'd suggest the idea to "Celebrity Deathmatch." ;-) --Chip Morton At 01:45 AM 4/16/2001, you wrote: >I've just had a wonderful idea for a new military weapon of >unprecedented destructive power: Put Brett Glass and Richard >Stallman in a freight container with a wall between them. When a >timer expires the wall opens, causing a devastating >matter/antimatter explosion. Think I can get funding from the >Pentagon to develop this further? > >(That said, I had seen the signature on the aforementioned letter, >and it does seem awfully arrogant.) > >Dave > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Dave Walton dwalton@acm.org >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 17:49:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [208.240.196.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71EF837B43E for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:49:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from chip.wiegand.org [208.194.173.26] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.05) id A4C629ED0242; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:56:38 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:55:24 -0700 From: Chip Wiegand To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HTML editor Message-Id: <20010416175524.031b1a0f.chip@wiegand.org> In-Reply-To: <15067.27254.337984.166093@guru.mired.org> References: <15067.27254.337984.166093@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.4.62 (GTK+ 1.2.8; i386--freebsd4.2) Organization: wiegand.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike, I am curious about psgml. I haven't seen it before, I've tried probably 6 or 8 differant editors, with and without gui's, and have yet to find one I am really comfortable with. I read the description of psgml in the ports, but see no reference to a web site, do you know of one? I'd like to learn a bit more about this program before deciding to try it, my hard drive space is getting a bit on the tight side. Currently I am using one I found called Quanta, for kde2 (though I don't use kde, I use XFCE instead). I seems to be pretty good, but it is big and slow, too much like the windoze apps I have to use all day at work. Bluefish and gnotepad+ seemed fine but both have problems with pasting text into them from other apps (they more than not would not paste any of the copied text). Vi and EE are fine also, but again, I can't paste into them (or at least I have yet to find out how) from other X apps. Oh, well, Regards Chip On Mon, 16 Apr 2001 16:56:06 -0500 Mike Meyer surely must have wrote something like: > BSDBlood Chat types: > > Hello all, > > Just wondering, what HTML editor do you guys use? Why? > > psgml, because it actually understands the structure of an HTML > document. Autocompletion on the legal tags, a "close last tag" > command, and similar features that come with understanding the > structure. > > mike -- Chip Wiegand Alternative Operating Systems www.wiegand.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 18: 2: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D6737B423 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:02:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14pJsT-0003DD-00; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:01:57 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:01:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Chip Wiegand Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HTML editor In-Reply-To: <20010416175524.031b1a0f.chip@wiegand.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Chip Wiegand wrote: > text). Vi and EE are fine also, but again, I can't paste into them (or > at least I have yet to find out how) from other X apps. You can never paste into vi? What apps are you trying to copy from? I can copy and paste to and from vi. (Ted and older versions of abiword do have problems with copy-and-paste with other standard X apps.) Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 19: 2: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 77D5537B422 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:02:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 74226 invoked by uid 100); 17 Apr 2001 02:02:00 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15067.42008.309612.106238@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:02:00 -0500 To: Chip Wiegand Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HTML editor In-Reply-To: <20010416175524.031b1a0f.chip@wiegand.org> References: <15067.27254.337984.166093@guru.mired.org> <20010416175524.031b1a0f.chip@wiegand.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Wiegand types: > Mike, > I am curious about psgml. I haven't seen it before, I've tried probably > 6 or 8 differant editors, with and without gui's, and have yet to find > one I am really comfortable with. I read the description of psgml in the > ports, but see no reference to a web site, do you know of one? I'd like > to learn a bit more about this program before deciding to try it, my > hard drive space is getting a bit on the tight side. Currently I am > using one I found called Quanta, for kde2 (though I don't use kde, I use > XFCE instead). I seems to be pretty good, but it is big and slow, too > much like the windoze apps I have to use all day at work. Bluefish and > gnotepad+ seemed fine but both have problems with pasting text into them > from other apps (they more than not would not paste any of the copied > text). Vi and EE are fine also, but again, I can't paste into them (or > at least I have yet to find out how) from other X apps. psgml isn't an editor, it's a mode for emacs. It's designed for editing SGML and XML. Since HTML is an SGML application, it works very well for that. Ditto for XHTML and XML. It's as GUI as the underlying emacs (i.e. - Xemacs has button bars, scroll bars, and such like goodies). Cutting and pasting in X is in general problematical; it seems like applications don't agree on what the clipboard is. If you keep a tool like xclipboard around, you can generally cut and paste from it to anything, and vice versa. I use that when I have a case where I cut from application X, and application Y doesn't see it. The other solution is to make sure all your applications are part of the same suite. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 19:38:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A6C037B449 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:38:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from trevor@jpj.net) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3H2c6a01158; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:38:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:38:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Trevor Johnson To: "Christopher T. Jewett" Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.3 Release? In-Reply-To: <20010417000406.IKSH18323.mta09.onebox.com@onebox.com> Message-ID: <20010416223709.U765-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I thought it was supposed to have come out on Easter Sunday. I was obviously > mistaken. Anyone know when it's due? My Windows boot has been acting > funny lately, so I was planning on wiping my system and dedicating more > space to FreeBSD, but then I heard 4.3 was supposed to be coming out, > and I thought I'd wait... Anyone with info, let me know. Thanks! The last I heard, it was scheduled for this coming Friday. -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 19:41:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maila.ptd.net (mail1a.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5E85D37B424 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:41:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 18271 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2001 02:40:09 -0000 Received: from mail1.ha-net.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([207.44.96.65]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpa.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 17 Apr 2001 02:40:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 8701 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2001 02:41:48 -0000 Received: from du152.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.152]) (envelope-sender ) by mail.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 17 Apr 2001 02:41:48 -0000 Message-ID: <3ADBACF9.E7E3419@mail.ptd.net> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:39:53 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joseph Mallett wrote: > > It's actually nothing new. I remember back in probably... 1995 he really > started bitching hard about how it should be GNU/Linux and then he started > taking lots of credit. > > Of course, the original source of the GNU stuff is never brought up... So > that means RMS _had_ to have done them all from scratch... Right. > > I was having a discussion with someone about the attitudes of the Linux > community, and the GNU community, and the constant raving of how all > computer innovations were open source, etc. etc. Has anyone else found any > truly unique innovations to come from _the GNU project_? The closest I can > find is translators in HURD, but I _think_ that had been done (to some > extent) outside of GNU before. It seems to me most of the 'open source > innovation' came from BSD, etc. not from GNU. If that's the case, then > they're implying that GNU has been the source of most computer innovation > (after all, it's usually said in defence of FSF/GNU/Linux), which is about > as accurate as calling RMS what he called himself... On http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html Stallman say, "The BSD developers were inspired to make their work free software by the example of the GNU Project ... ." But on http://www.gnu.org/ he also says, "The GNU Project was launched in 1984 ... ." Since the first Berkeley tape was sent out in 1978, it seems Mr. Stallman has also invented time travel. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 20:19: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83A0D37B43E for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:19:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA24475; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:18:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:18:41 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , James Howard From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: banner(6) Cc: Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010416193151.U27477@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:31 AM 4/16/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >I could say "typeface" if that makes you feel better. But the figlet >package itself calls them "fonts". "Fonts" is the correct term. A "typeface" is a design for a set of characters, regardless of size. A "font" is a typeface scaled to a specific size and density (e.g. 11 point bold). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 23: 3:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A1337B423 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:03:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3H63I808197; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 06:03:18 GMT Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 06:03:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > >I could say "typeface" if that makes you feel better. But the figlet > >package itself calls them "fonts". > > "Fonts" is the correct term. A "typeface" is a design for a set of > characters, regardless of size. A "font" is a typeface scaled to a > specific size and density (e.g. 11 point bold). What is kerning? ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 23: 9:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E3437B43F for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:09:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA25847; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 00:09:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417000441.00dd9340@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 00:09:06 -0600 To: Kris Kirby From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: banner(6) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:03 AM 4/17/2001, Kris Kirby wrote: >What is kerning? Kerning is the adjustment of the spacing between characters. The most aesthetically pleasing spacing -- and the one that yields the most legible text -- usuall depends on what characters they are and what order they're in, as well as the typeface. (It scales, of course, with font size.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 16 23:26:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [208.240.196.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9C7337B422 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:26:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from chip.wiegand.org [208.194.173.26] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.05) id A3E042C401B4; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:34:08 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:32:55 -0700 From: Chip Wiegand To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: HTML editor Message-Id: <20010416233255.204dd527.chip@wiegand.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20010416175524.031b1a0f.chip@wiegand.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.4.62 (GTK+ 1.2.8; i386--freebsd4.2) Organization: wiegand.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I know how to copy/cut and paste within vi, but haven't figured out how to get text copied from my email program into vi. I am using sylpheed (a gtk+ app) for my email client. Someone else suggested having xclipboard handy, so I'll see about that. Unless you can tell me how to copy/paste from an X gui app into vi? Regards, Chip On Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:01:57 -0700 (PDT) "Jeremy C. Reed" surely must have wrote something like: > On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Chip Wiegand wrote: > > text). Vi and EE are fine also, but again, I can't paste into them (or > > at least I have yet to find out how) from other X apps. > > You can never paste into vi? What apps are you trying to copy from? > > I can copy and paste to and from vi. (Ted and older versions of abiword > do have problems with copy-and-paste with other standard X apps.) > > Jeremy C. Reed > http://www.reedmedia.net/ > > > -- Chip Wiegand Alternative Operating Systems www.wiegand.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 0:51:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 692A837B424 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 00:51:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3H7pgq04168 ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:51:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id JAA75216 ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:51:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:51:40 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: James Howard , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) Message-ID: <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416193151.U27477@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 09:18:41PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Apr 16, 2001 at 21:18:41: > At 11:31 AM 4/16/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >I could say "typeface" if that makes you feel better. But the figlet > >package itself calls them "fonts". > > "Fonts" is the correct term. A "typeface" is a design for a set of > characters, regardless of size. A "font" is a typeface scaled to a > specific size and density (e.g. 11 point bold). I think that needs clarification. Merely scaling a font (multiplying by a factor x) doesn't create a new font. A scalable helvetica postscript font is the same font at all sizes. Traditionally, when you scale a typeface (in particular, make it smaller) you're supposed to change its appearance to improve readability. But Knuth's Computer Modern is the only computer font family I know of which actually does this. So Computer Modern 6pt roman is actually different from 10pt roman in the same typeface. But both are scalable -- for illustration, Knuth's TeXbook compares a 6pt font scaled to 10pt, with the corresponding 10pt font. I have the impression that, traditionally (in the days of movable type), a general design was (as you say) a "typeface" and a "font" was a particular set of characters implementing a typeface. Or something like that. In the computer age, "font" has acquired a slightly different meaning. In the Adobe/Microsoft age, the distinction between different sizes of the same typeface seems to have vanished. - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 2:12:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 46CC137B42C for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 02:12:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 83278 invoked by uid 100); 17 Apr 2001 09:12:44 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15068.2316.462237.389889@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:12:44 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , James Howard , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416193151.U27477@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan types: > > "Fonts" is the correct term. A "typeface" is a design for a set of > > characters, regardless of size. A "font" is a typeface scaled to a > > specific size and density (e.g. 11 point bold). > > I think that needs clarification. Merely scaling a font (multiplying > by a factor x) doesn't create a new font. A scalable helvetica > postscript font is the same font at all sizes. If your postscript font merely multiplies by a factor of X, it's a pretty poor font. > Traditionally, when you scale a typeface (in particular, make it > smaller) you're supposed to change its appearance to improve > readability. But Knuth's Computer Modern is the only computer font > family I know of which actually does this. So Computer Modern 6pt > roman is actually different from 10pt roman in the same typeface. But > both are scalable -- for illustration, Knuth's TeXbook compares a 6pt > font scaled to 10pt, with the corresponding 10pt font. Correctly written PostScript fonts behave as you describe, maintaining density as you scale them. Try looking at a good commercial font - one that has an expert collection and a proper small caps font available - at both 6 and 10 points magnified to the same size. I tried it with Adobe's Garamond. > I have the impression that, traditionally (in the days of movable > type), a general design was (as you say) a "typeface" and a "font" was > a particular set of characters implementing a typeface. Or something > like that. In the computer age, "font" has acquired a slightly > different meaning. In the Adobe/Microsoft age, the distinction > between different sizes of the same typeface seems to have vanished. What Adobe markets as a "font" is a particular set of programs implementing a typeface. A PS font, unlike a type font, can be used to produce many different sizes of the typeface. You can buy different fonts from Adobe that implement the same typeface. They do tend to have different names denoting which foundry produced them, which was also true of type fonts. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 2:37:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 523F937B42C for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 02:37:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 83839 invoked by uid 100); 17 Apr 2001 09:37:51 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15068.3823.602852.567433@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:37:51 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , James Howard , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416193151.U27477@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan types: > I have the impression that, traditionally (in the days of movable > type), a general design was (as you say) a "typeface" and a "font" was > a particular set of characters implementing a typeface. Or something > like that. In the computer age, "font" has acquired a slightly > different meaning. In the Adobe/Microsoft age, the distinction > between different sizes of the same typeface seems to have vanished. While I'm on the topic: another point of similarity between the two types of fonts is that they, unlike typefaces, are protected as intellectual property. At least, that's the case unless the recent spate of hacks to the copyright law has changed things. Since designing a typeface takes as much work as writing a symphony or a novel, typeface designers are understandably annoyed that their work, unlike the work of the composer or the writer, can be ripped off by anyone with a digitizer. Anyone who thinks per-copy or per-use compensation is a creators right and not merely a legal privilege should make sure they aren't using fonts that implement a ripped-off typeface. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 2:47:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C7C137B424 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 02:47:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3H9lVq16972 ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:47:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA80119 ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:47:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:47:30 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Mike Meyer Cc: Brett Glass , James Howard , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) Message-ID: <20010417114730.F74385@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416193151.U27477@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> <15068.3823.602852.567433@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15068.3823.602852.567433@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Tue, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:37:51AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer said on Apr 17, 2001 at 04:37:51: > Rahul Siddharthan types: > > I have the impression that, traditionally (in the days of movable > > type), a general design was (as you say) a "typeface" and a "font" was > > a particular set of characters implementing a typeface. Or something > > like that. In the computer age, "font" has acquired a slightly > > different meaning. In the Adobe/Microsoft age, the distinction > > between different sizes of the same typeface seems to have vanished. > > While I'm on the topic: another point of similarity between the two > types of fonts is that they, unlike typefaces, are protected as > intellectual property. At least, that's the case unless the recent > spate of hacks to the copyright law has changed things. Since > designing a typeface takes as much work as writing a symphony or a > novel, typeface designers are understandably annoyed that their work, > unlike the work of the composer or the writer, can be ripped off by > anyone with a digitizer. Indeed, designing a *good* typeface can be more work than writing a symphony or a novel -- certainly much more than writing an Eminem or Metallica song. I'm quite surprised if it's not protected by IP laws. Maybe not copyright, but what about patents? Won't the appearance of a font be covered by a "design patent"? (It's a different matter that patent protection has not yet been stretched to the ridiculous durations of time which copyright protection has -- so that most of the well known 20th century fonts would no longer be covered in any case.) I didn't know, also, that Adobe's professional quality fonts look different at different point sizes. Interesting. It seems that a lot of published books don't use such fonts: their footnotes and other small type are often hard to read. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 6:17:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C54D537B423 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 06:17:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@well.com) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f3HDHWO28025; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:17:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA13131; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:17:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13094; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:17:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:17:26 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@z.glue.umd.edu To: Brett Glass Cc: Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417000441.00dd9340@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:03 AM 4/17/2001, Kris Kirby wrote: > > >What is kerning? > > Kerning is the adjustment of the spacing between characters. > The most aesthetically pleasing spacing -- and the one that > yields the most legible text -- usuall depends on what > characters they are and what order they're in, as well as > the typeface. (It scales, of course, with font size.) Compare this to the way "fi" appears in generic TeX output. The dot of the i is the cap of the f. I think Knuth goes over this in the first page of the TeX Book. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 8: 5:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from be-well.ilk.org (lowellg.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.184.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85D8637B43E for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:05:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lowell@be-well.ilk.org) Received: (from lowell@localhost) by be-well.ilk.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f3HF5ge14673; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:05:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lowell) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FEP RFC References: <9bfsv9$2vrv$1@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw> From: Lowell Gilbert Date: 17 Apr 2001 11:05:42 -0400 In-Reply-To: crist.clark@globalstar.com's message of "17 Apr 2001 06:50:17 +0800" Message-ID: <44wv8jpnw9.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> Lines: 25 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org crist.clark@globalstar.com ("Crist Clark") writes: > I guess I missed this when it came out two weeks ago, and I did not > see it pop up here. This one is very, very, very dry. > > http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc3093.txt > > (In case it doesn't sink in right away, look at the date on it.) I'm not sure that I agree with the "very, very, very dry" assessment, at least in the large view. I'd actually call it very *pointed* satire. To a non-trivial extent, tunneling protocols *over* HTTP has been happening for years, in many cases for *no* reason other than getting past firewalls. To say this is a bad idea doesn't even begin to insult the concept properly, and I'm glad that Scott Bradner has used humor so effectively in explaining the problem. [To give proper credit to his co-author, I suspect that Mark Gaynor deserves a lot of the credit for the rather clever dryness in the actual writing.] Be well. Lowell Gilbert -- "Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh." -- George Bernard Shaw To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 9:12:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6455B37B423 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:12:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3HGCHq53615 ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:12:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA98358 ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:12:16 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:12:16 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: James Howard Cc: Brett Glass , Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) Message-ID: <20010417181216.I74385@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417000441.00dd9340@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from howardjp@well.com on Tue, Apr 17, 2001 at 09:17:26AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Howard said on Apr 17, 2001 at 09:17:26: > On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > > At 12:03 AM 4/17/2001, Kris Kirby wrote: > > > > >What is kerning? > > > > Kerning is the adjustment of the spacing between characters. > > The most aesthetically pleasing spacing -- and the one that > > yields the most legible text -- usuall depends on what > > characters they are and what order they're in, as well as > > the typeface. (It scales, of course, with font size.) > > Compare this to the way "fi" appears in generic TeX output. The dot of > the i is the cap of the f. I think Knuth goes over this in the first page > of the TeX Book. Actually, that's "ligature", not "kerning". R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 10:10: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from michael.checkpoint.com (michael.checkpoint.com [199.203.73.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9731137B42C for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:09:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by michael.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA07508; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:09:53 +0300 (IDT) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f3HHBoE60429; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:11:50 +0300 (IDT) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:11:50 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Message-ID: <20010417201150.A60285@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <3ADBACF9.E7E3419@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3ADBACF9.E7E3419@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 10:39:53PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 10:39:53PM -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > On http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html Stallman say, "The BSD developers were inspired to make their work free software by the example of the GNU Project ... ." But > on http://www.gnu.org/ he also says, "The GNU Project was launched in 1984 ... ." Since the first Berkeley tape was sent out in 1978, it seems Mr. Stallman has also > invented time travel. The first freely redistributable BSD code was the Networking Release 1, of 1989. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 10:33:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 477D437B423 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f3HHWtq10701; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 19:32:56 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <44wv8jpnw9.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> References: <9bfsv9$2vrv$1@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw> <44wv8jpnw9.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 19:17:48 +0200 To: Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: FEP RFC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:05 AM -0400 4/17/01, Lowell Gilbert wrote: >> http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc3093.txt >> >> (In case it doesn't sink in right away, look at the date on it.) > > I'm not sure that I agree with the "very, very, very dry" assessment, > at least in the large view. I'd actually call it very *pointed* > satire. I caught the humour when I first read it. Problem is, I fear that the humour is sufficiently subtle that many people *won't* get it, and will actually take that one at least semi-seriously -- thus perhaps actually worsening the problem that they were trying to lampoon. I wrote to Scott Bradner about this issue, and he responded that: we were told to make it look serious and maybe we over did it Anyway, this issue has certainly dampened my appreciation of the particular document in question, although I don't believe that it detracts from the humour of the overall series. IP over avian carriers, indeed. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 11:13:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0AB437B423 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:13:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7726F5F61; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:13:33 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:13:38 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-Sender: dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com To: Chip Wiegand Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: HTML editor In-Reply-To: <20010416233255.204dd527.chip@wiegand.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Chip Wiegand wrote: :I know how to copy/cut and paste within vi, but haven't figured out how :to get text copied from my email program into vi. I am using sylpheed (a :gtk+ app) for my email client. Someone else suggested having xclipboard :handy, so I'll see about that. Unless you can tell me how to copy/paste :from an X gui app into vi? : High-light the text in whatever application, middle click in vi, realize that vi wasn't in append mode, undo the changes, put vi in append mode, middle click again. I sometimes have problems pasting from netscape, nut other than that, it works fine. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 11:48:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F50837B43E for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:48:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02038; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:48:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417124229.0458bec0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:47:57 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: banner(6) Cc: James Howard , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416193151.U27477@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:51 AM 4/17/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >I think that needs clarification. Merely scaling a font (multiplying >by a factor x) doesn't create a new font. A scalable helvetica >postscript font is the same font at all sizes. Not true. Adobe, and others, have sometimes misused the word "font," applying it to what is correctly callled a typeface. You don't scale a font; you scale a typeface in the process of rendering a font (see below). >Traditionally, when you scale a typeface (in particular, make it >smaller) you're supposed to change its appearance to improve >readability. Not quite. When you create a font from a typeface (a process which is called "rendering"), you may choose to employ tricks such as anti-aliasing. The purpose of these tricks is not to change the appearance of the typeface but rather to preserve it! Most of these tricks deal with the pixellated nature of modern computer displays. Some of them even employ sub-pixel rendering; see http://grc.com/cleartype.htm --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 11:52:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4413E37B443 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:52:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02089; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:51:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417124854.04560b30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:51:08 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: banner(6) Cc: James Howard , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15068.3823.602852.567433@guru.mired.org> References: <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416193151.U27477@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:37 AM 4/17/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >While I'm on the topic: another point of similarity between the two >types of fonts is that they, unlike typefaces, are protected as >intellectual property. The names of typefaces can be (and are) trademarked. While typeface designs are considered to be utilitarian and therefore are not protected by copyright, programs that draw them are. Since Adobe's "fonts" (which are really not fonts but programs to render them) are actually programs, they are subject to copyright protection. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 11:55:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4B7D37B423 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:55:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3HItXq66624 ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:55:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA04900 ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:55:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:55:32 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: James Howard , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) Message-ID: <20010417205532.P74385@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416193151.U27477@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010417124229.0458bec0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417124229.0458bec0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Apr 17, 2001 at 12:47:57PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Apr 17, 2001 at 12:47:57: > > >I think that needs clarification. Merely scaling a font (multiplying > >by a factor x) doesn't create a new font. A scalable helvetica > >postscript font is the same font at all sizes. > > Not true. Adobe, and others, have sometimes misused the word > "font," applying it to what is correctly callled a typeface. > You don't scale a font; you scale a typeface in the process > of rendering a font (see below). > > >Traditionally, when you scale a typeface (in particular, make it > >smaller) you're supposed to change its appearance to improve > >readability. > > Not quite. When you create a font from a typeface (a process which > is called "rendering"), you may choose to employ tricks such as > anti-aliasing. The purpose of these tricks is not to change the > appearance of the typeface but rather to preserve it! Most of these > tricks deal with the pixellated nature of modern computer displays. I wasn't talking about rendering on the screen: I was talking about printed books. I was talking about readability in the sense of what the human eye can comfortably discern at small sizes. If you look at any book by a respectable publisher before 1980, you'll see that letters in small type are broader (relative to their height), more rounded, somewhat more broadly spaced (again, relative to their height), and contain other slight differences, though they may belong to the same typeface (Times/Baskerville/whatever). This has nothing to do with pixellation: the resolution of ink on paper is quite sufficient to render fonts clearly at very small sizes. It's just that to read a regular 10pt font shrunk to 6pt comfortably, many people would need a magnifying glass simply because it's too "squashed up" otherwise. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 11:55:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 868AD37B43F for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:55:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02178; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:55:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417125214.0456f470@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:55:29 -0600 To: James Howard From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: banner(6) Cc: Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417000441.00dd9340@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:17 AM 4/17/2001, James Howard wrote: >Compare this to the way "fi" appears in generic TeX output. The dot of >the i is the cap of the f. I think Knuth goes over this in the first page >of the TeX Book. That's called ligature. It's different from kerning in that it actually combines two characters into one. (My late father was a typesetting expert in the days before computer typesetting was common, and constantly had to proofread to catch situations in which ligatures were not substituted for the appropriate character pair.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 12: 2:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7135D37B423 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:02:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02275; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:01:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417125858.0458c6f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:01:00 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: banner(6) Cc: James Howard , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010417205532.P74385@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417124229.0458bec0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416193151.U27477@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010417124229.0458bec0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:55 PM 4/17/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >I wasn't talking about rendering on the screen: I was talking about >printed books. I was talking about readability in the sense of what >the human eye can comfortably discern at small sizes. > >If you look at any book by a respectable publisher before 1980, you'll >see that letters in small type are broader (relative to their height), >more rounded, somewhat more broadly spaced (again, relative to their >height), and contain other slight differences, though they may belong >to the same typeface (Times/Baskerville/whatever). Very often, a typeface design will specify that the proportions of the characters should change at small font sizes. This is because the human brain and eye are nonlinear.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 12: 6:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E783937B43E for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:06:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA16393; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:05:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAw5aaVF; Tue Apr 17 12:04:54 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA26150; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:06:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104171906.MAA26150@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FEP RFC To: brad.knowles@skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 19:06:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: lowell@world.std.com (Lowell Gilbert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Apr 17, 2001 07:17:48 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc3093.txt > >> > >> (In case it doesn't sink in right away, look at the date on it.) > > > > I'm not sure that I agree with the "very, very, very dry" assessment, > > at least in the large view. I'd actually call it very *pointed* > > satire. > > I caught the humour when I first read it. Problem is, I fear > that the humour is sufficiently subtle that many people *won't* get > it, and will actually take that one at least semi-seriously -- thus > perhaps actually worsening the problem that they were trying to > lampoon. It's extremely common to tunnel things over HTTP to get around anal-retentive security types in control of the firewalls, who would rather have their networks be entirely secure, rather than allow the company to do the business for which it was incorporated. Many of these people would like nothing better than to take a pair of wire cutters to the power cords, and bury the machines six feet down in cement, thereby making them "safe". The primary use of XML within IBM corporate is routing around people who are so anal retentive that, if you stuck a lump of coal up their posterior in the morning, when you retrieved it the evening of the same day, you would find that it had been transformed into diamond. > > I wrote to Scott Bradner about this issue, and he responded that: > > we were told to make it look serious and maybe we over did it > > > > Anyway, this issue has certainly dampened my appreciation of the > particular document in question, although I don't believe that it > detracts from the humour of the overall series. IP over avian > carriers, indeed. ;-) I think they intentionally left the best parts ambiguous, and rendered it a bad protocol design in the process, to prevent anoyone from actually implementing the thing. If the headers weren't so stupid, and if they had referenced RFC 2043 and specified BASE64 content trandefer encoding, I swear I would have implemented the damn thing, just to be a pain in the ass for the firewall types who get between me and other engineers, and getting my/their job done. This actually would have been better done as a MIME type... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 12: 7:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B5737B43E for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:07:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3HJ7Dq67250 ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:07:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id VAA05304 ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:07:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:07:12 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: James Howard , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) Message-ID: <20010417210712.Q74385@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416193151.U27477@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010417124229.0458bec0@localhost> <20010417205532.P74385@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010417125858.0458c6f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417125858.0458c6f0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Apr 17, 2001 at 01:01:00PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Apr 17, 2001 at 13:01:00: > At 12:55 PM 4/17/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >I wasn't talking about rendering on the screen: I was talking about > >printed books. I was talking about readability in the sense of what > >the human eye can comfortably discern at small sizes. > > > >If you look at any book by a respectable publisher before 1980, you'll > >see that letters in small type are broader (relative to their height), > >more rounded, somewhat more broadly spaced (again, relative to their > >height), and contain other slight differences, though they may belong > >to the same typeface (Times/Baskerville/whatever). > > Very often, a typeface design will specify that the proportions of the > characters should change at small font sizes. This is because the > human brain and eye are nonlinear.... Quite likely. My point was that, these days, most books printed in (say) Times Roman don't change the proportions of letters at small sizes. I assumed it was because Type 1 fonts or truetype fonts don't allow for it; but maybe the reason is something else (sloppy software?) I was also saying that reserving the word "font" for a particular point size makes sense if there is such adjustment in proportion. But often, these days, there isn't. Times New Roman 6pt is exactly the same font as Times New Roman at 14pt, only smaller. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 14:51: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2FED37B42C for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:50:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3HLol931929; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:50:47 GMT Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:50:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417125214.0456f470@localhost> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > That's called ligature. It's different from kerning in that it actually > combines two characters into one. (My late father was a typesetting > expert in the days before computer typesetting was common, and constantly > had to proofread to catch situations in which ligatures were not > substituted for the appropriate character pair.) Can anyone give me a link to a "everything you ever wanted to know about typesetting on-line"? ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 18:17:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maila.ptd.net (mail1a.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 764C637B42C for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:17:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 6025 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2001 01:15:37 -0000 Received: from mail1.ha-net.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([207.44.96.65]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpa.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Apr 2001 01:15:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 6366 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2001 01:17:15 -0000 Received: from du211093.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.211.93]) (envelope-sender ) by mail.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Apr 2001 01:17:15 -0000 Message-ID: <3ADCEACD.118161C@mail.ptd.net> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:15:57 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux References: <3ADBACF9.E7E3419@mail.ptd.net> <20010417201150.A60285@happy.checkpoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 10:39:53PM -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > On http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html Stallman say, "The BSD developers were inspired to make their work free software by the example of the GNU Project ... ." But > > on http://www.gnu.org/ he also says, "The GNU Project was launched in 1984 ... ." Since the first Berkeley tape was sent out in 1978, it seems Mr. Stallman has also > > invented time travel. > > The first freely redistributable BSD code was the Networking Release 1, of > 1989. But that was not the first BSD release that was distributed essentially for free, even if only to those who had an AT&T license already. It is not the case, as Stallman suggests, that the people at Berkeley were keeping their software secret until he came along, and showed them the path of righteousness. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 21:22:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 010CD37B424 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:21:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 8009 invoked by uid 100); 18 Apr 2001 04:21:56 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15069.5732.677255.857589@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:21:56 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , James Howard , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417124854.04560b30@localhost> References: <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416193151.U27477@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010417124854.04560b30@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 03:37 AM 4/17/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >While I'm on the topic: another point of similarity between the two > >types of fonts is that they, unlike typefaces, are protected as > >intellectual property. > The names of typefaces can be (and are) trademarked. While typeface > designs are considered to be utilitarian and therefore are not > protected by copyright, programs that draw them are. Since Adobe's > "fonts" (which are really not fonts but programs to render them) > are actually programs, they are subject to copyright protection. That's pretty much just what I said. Fonts - whether programs or actual bits of metal - have copyright protection. Typefaces - in the form of what the fonts produce - do not. Than names can be trademarked, which is why the disks of ripped off fonts sold commercially tend to have names like "Garnet" instead of "Garamond". The end result is the same - someone does a bunch of creative work, drawing designs for a typeface, then repeating the process at various different point sizes so they all have the same color. Then anyone who wants can sell - or give away - knockoffs capitalizing on their work without compensating them in any way. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 21:37:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EF82D37B424 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:37:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 8400 invoked by uid 100); 18 Apr 2001 04:37:46 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15069.6682.268488.580768@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:37:46 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , James Howard , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <20010417205532.P74385@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416193151.U27477@lpt.ens.fr> <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010417124229.0458bec0@localhost> <20010417205532.P74385@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan types: > If you look at any book by a respectable publisher before 1980, you'll > see that letters in small type are broader (relative to their height), > more rounded, somewhat more broadly spaced (again, relative to their > height), and contain other slight differences, though they may belong > to the same typeface (Times/Baskerville/whatever). This has nothing > to do with pixellation: the resolution of ink on paper is quite > sufficient to render fonts clearly at very small sizes. It's just > that to read a regular 10pt font shrunk to 6pt comfortably, many > people would need a magnifying glass simply because it's too "squashed > up" otherwise. I've always seen this characterized as the "color" of the font, because your squashed up font looks darker at a distance than a properly designed font. You'll note that all of your changes tend to add more whitespace to the each letter. A common "other slight difference" is a narrowing of the broad part of the stroke relative to the rest of the character, which has the same effect. One of the sources of the problems you are seeing with modern books is the DTP revolution. Instead of getting books rendered with metal, or on quality phototypesetters, you're seeing things that are rendered on laser printers. Things as sublte as narrowing the stroke are pretty much wasted in small point sizes at such crude resolutions. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 21:45:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0665E37B422 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:45:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 8622 invoked by uid 100); 18 Apr 2001 04:45:28 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15069.7144.495235.479984@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:45:28 -0500 To: Kris Kirby Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417125214.0456f470@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby types: > On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > That's called ligature. It's different from kerning in that it actually > > combines two characters into one. (My late father was a typesetting > > expert in the days before computer typesetting was common, and constantly > > had to proofread to catch situations in which ligatures were not > > substituted for the appropriate character pair.) > Can anyone give me a link to a "everything you ever wanted to know about > typesetting on-line"? How about an on-line link to everything you ever wanted to know about typesetting? There's a 2000 edition somewhere, but I haven't been able to find a copy :-(. There's a *lot* more going on than just the details of font and typefaces, though. If you want a more gentle introduction, try the winner of the award for best title for a book on typography: http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 21:53:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7235837B422 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:53:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from trevor@jpj.net) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3I4rhj17532; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:53:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:53:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Trevor Johnson To: Brett Glass Cc: Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416155048.04c6f6f0@localhost> Message-ID: <20010418002742.A12981-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:48 AM 4/16/2001, Joseph Mallett wrote: > > >Bill Gates is hardly RMS' opposite. The GPL is every bit infectious and > >virus-like as Windows. If anything, they're twins, just don't suggest it > >to RMS. > > There's another similarity, come to think of it: They both have as much > money as they want (though the amounts are vastly different), but > begrudge anyone else the opportunity to make any. That's not what they themselves say: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/1998/bill-economist.asp (the pages where Stallman puts on his halo and Gates stuffs a trash can with light bulbs -- http://www.stallman.org/saint.html and http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/default.asp -- are much funnier). -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 23:30:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CDA437B424 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:30:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA08279; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:29:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417213813.044654f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:43:29 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: banner(6) Cc: James Howard , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010417210712.Q74385@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417125858.0458c6f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416193151.U27477@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010417124229.0458bec0@localhost> <20010417205532.P74385@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010417125858.0458c6f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:07 PM 4/17/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Quite likely. My point was that, these days, most books printed in >(say) Times Roman don't change the proportions of letters at small >sizes. I assumed it was because Type 1 fonts or truetype fonts don't >allow for it; but maybe the reason is something else (sloppy software?) Both Type 1 and TrueType allow for it. TrueType has special mechanisms built in: it has both extra hints for small sizes (which can squeeze or stretch the characters) and the ability to include hand-tuned bitmaps for REALLY small sizes. >I was also saying that reserving the word "font" for a particular >point size makes sense if there is such adjustment in proportion. >But often, these days, there isn't. Times New Roman 6pt is exactly >the same font as Times New Roman at 14pt, only smaller. "Smaller" is different. Prior to computer typesetting (and even in the early days of computer typesetting), printers had to buy different sizes as separate fonts. Software "scalable fonts" (which should have correctly been called "scalable typefaces") changed the economics, but the meanings of the terms haven't changed. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 23:39: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C1137B43F for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:39:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA08349; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:38:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418003011.045ef3b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:38:53 -0600 To: Trevor Johnson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: In-Reply-To: <20010418002742.A12981-100000@blues.jpj.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416155048.04c6f6f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:53 PM 4/17/2001, Trevor Johnson wrote: >That's not what they themselves say: > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html > http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/1998/bill-economist.asp Stallman's rhetoric is doublespeak. The truth is that he condones the selling of plastic disks (a low-profit, low-skill endeavor) but not the selling of software. (According to the GPL, GPLed software itself may NOT be licensed for money.) He approves of the trade in disks because (a) it furthers his agenda; (b) it allows the FSF to make a bit of cash; and (c) he knows that the "parasites" (his own word) who sell disks, such as Red Hat, will not be able to make a living as soon as high bandwidth connections to the Net are ubiquitous. Gates' statement is carefully contrived propaganda that attempts to justify the actions of a monopolist. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 23:47:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C8DE937B422 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:47:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 11506 invoked by uid 100); 18 Apr 2001 06:47:34 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15069.14470.185674.309336@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 01:47:34 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Trevor Johnson , Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418003011.045ef3b0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010416155048.04c6f6f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418003011.045ef3b0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > Gates' statement is carefully contrived propaganda that attempts > to justify the actions of a monopolist. While that's true, it's also true that Gates has created more software millionaires than any other tech company. MS has reasonable stock options, and the stock is golden. All of those millionaires made more money for Gates than they did for themselves. In other words, Gates has no trouble with other people getting wealthy in the software business, so long as they are doing it working for him. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 17 23:54:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6239937B423 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:54:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA08438; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:54:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418005020.045fc930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:54:02 -0600 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: banner(6) Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , James Howard , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15069.5732.677255.857589@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417124854.04560b30@localhost> <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416193151.U27477@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010417124854.04560b30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:21 PM 4/17/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >That's pretty much just what I said. Fonts - whether programs or >actual bits of metal - have copyright protection. Typefaces - in the >form of what the fonts produce - do not. That's not correct. Fonts do not "produce" typefaces. They are renderings of typefaces. >The end result is the same - someone does a bunch of creative work, >drawing designs for a typeface, then repeating the process at various >different point sizes so they all have the same color. Then anyone who >wants can sell - or give away - knockoffs capitalizing on their work >without compensating them in any way. It is possible to do a knockoff, and many people do. But what's being copied is the uncopyrightable design. If you copy the program that renders the typeface into a font, you've infringed a copyright. This has been upheld in court. Adobe's "fonts" (which are really programs that render typefaces into fonts) are copyrightable. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 0:32:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 47C5237B422 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:32:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 12616 invoked by uid 100); 18 Apr 2001 07:32:52 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15069.17188.348607.736805@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 02:32:52 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , James Howard , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418005020.045fc930@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417124854.04560b30@localhost> <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416193151.U27477@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418005020.045fc930@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > >That's pretty much just what I said. Fonts - whether programs or > >actual bits of metal - have copyright protection. Typefaces - in the > >form of what the fonts produce - do not. > That's not correct. Fonts do not "produce" typefaces. They are > renderings of typefaces. That's wrong. What Adobe calls fonts are programs that you have to run in order to see the typeface they encode. The graphic images that result are clearly produced by those programs. I don't agree with you that Adobe has chosen the wrong terminology, as their fonts have more in common with non-software fonts than they do with typefaces. You can continue to quibble about that if you wish, but I'm going to continue using the terminology used by the rest of the world. > >The end result is the same - someone does a bunch of creative work, > >drawing designs for a typeface, then repeating the process at various > >different point sizes so they all have the same color. Then anyone who > >wants can sell - or give away - knockoffs capitalizing on their work > >without compensating them in any way. > It is possible to do a knockoff, and many people do. But what's being > copied is the uncopyrightable design. If you copy the program that > renders the typeface into a font, you've infringed a copyright. This > has been upheld in court. Adobe's "fonts" (which are really programs > that render typefaces into fonts) are copyrightable. Those people making - and using - knockoffs are using the work of the designer without compensation. Yeah, it's legal. It's still about as ethical as downloading an mp3 copy of a protected work from the net. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 1:17: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A5437B43C for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 01:16:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from trevor@jpj.net) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3I8Gu524084; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 04:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 04:16:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Trevor Johnson To: Brett Glass Cc: Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418003011.045ef3b0@localhost> Message-ID: <20010418032018.S12981-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Stallman's rhetoric is doublespeak. The truth is that he condones > the selling of plastic disks (a low-profit, low-skill endeavor) but > not the selling of software. (According to the GPL, GPLed software > itself may NOT be licensed for money.) The only parts of the GPL I see that mention money are: You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy, and you may at your option offer warranty protection in exchange for a fee. and [...]give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code [...] Are you saying that hiring someone to make changes to a GPL'd program would violate this second provision? > He approves of the trade in disks > because (a) it furthers his agenda; (b) it allows the FSF to make a bit > of cash; and (c) he knows that the "parasites" (his own word) who sell > disks, such as Red Hat, will not be able to make a living as soon > as high bandwidth connections to the Net are ubiquitous. I guess the FSF will have to run off donations when that happens. > Gates' statement is carefully contrived propaganda that attempts > to justify the actions of a monopolist. At first it seemed to me that he understood that a monopoly needs a healthy host to feed off. On second thought, perhaps he has other ideas. -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 5:41:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1111437B422 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 05:41:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA10455; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:41:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418063901.046fd440@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:41:04 -0600 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: Trevor Johnson , In-Reply-To: <15069.14470.185674.309336@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418003011.045ef3b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010416155048.04c6f6f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418003011.045ef3b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:47 AM 4/18/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >While that's true, it's also true that Gates has created more software >millionaires than any other tech company. If you gave me the wool, I could make one too. ;-) Seriously: those millionaires got rich via ill-gotten gains. >MS has reasonable stock >options, and the stock is golden. All of those millionaires made more >money for Gates than they did for themselves. In short, Gates is throwing his consiglieres a few crumbs.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 5:49:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FDE337B424 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 05:49:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA10529; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:49:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418064119.04710720@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:49:14 -0600 To: Trevor Johnson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: In-Reply-To: <20010418032018.S12981-100000@blues.jpj.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418003011.045ef3b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:16 AM 4/18/2001, Trevor Johnson wrote: >The only parts of the GPL I see that mention money are: > > You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy, > and you may at your option offer warranty protection in exchange > for a fee. > >and > > [...]give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of > physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable > copy of the corresponding source code [...] > >Are you saying that hiring someone to make changes to a GPL'd program >would violate this second provision? If he or she attempted to license his modified version for money. And that's the point! Stallman does not want anyone to be able to make money by creating and selling software. He's fine with the notion of reducing creative people to the level of disk pressers.... This is exactly the sort of reduction in programmers' status he called for in his "GNU Manifesto." >I guess the FSF will have to run off donations when that happens. It should be running off of donations NOW. It's a 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation, which means that profits from sales are considered to be "unrelated business income." A 501(c)(3) must get at least half of its income from donations -- a requirement which the FSF itself claims that it has not met. (Its Web site says that more than half of its income comes from sales.) The IRS should yank its tax-exempt status. >> Gates' statement is carefully contrived propaganda that attempts >> to justify the actions of a monopolist. > >At first it seemed to me that he understood that a monopoly needs a >healthy host to feed off. On second thought, perhaps he has other ideas. There are many perspectives about just how much a monopoly can tighten the screws while avoiding government action. In today's political climate, it can turn them pretty tight. XP's "activation" feature is a good example of Microsoft putting the squeeze on consumers to get their personal information... and tying them to the company for upgrades and patches. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 6:12:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D803C37B422 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:12:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3IDCVq41318 ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:12:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA42899 ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:12:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:12:30 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Trevor Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Message-ID: <20010418151230.P27000@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Trevor Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418003011.045ef3b0@localhost> <20010418032018.S12981-100000@blues.jpj.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418064119.04710720@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418064119.04710720@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 06:49:14AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Apr 18, 2001 at 06:49:14: > At 02:16 AM 4/18/2001, Trevor Johnson wrote: > > >The only parts of the GPL I see that mention money are: > > > > You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy, > > and you may at your option offer warranty protection in exchange > > for a fee. > > > >and > > > > [...]give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of > > physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable > > copy of the corresponding source code [...] > > > >Are you saying that hiring someone to make changes to a GPL'd program > >would violate this second provision? > > If he or she attempted to license his modified version for money. And > that's the point! Stallman does not want anyone to be able to make > money by creating and selling software. This has been discussed ad nauseam... but. That is *not* the point. Cygnus (now under Red Hat) has made plenty of money with custom modifications to GPL software. If I want a custom version of gnucash to suit the needs of my company, I can hire Brett to make the modifications for me, and Brett can insist on being paid lavishly for his work, especially since I'm asking him to touch this disgusting GPL code. What Brett cannot do is insist that I keep my new custom gnucash to myself. But, for such custom modifications, I will *want* to keep the results to myself. Nobody else may be interested anyway; but even if they are, why should I oblige? For mass-market software, like operating systems or office suites, yes, the GPL does reduce the amount one can effectively charge for software (excluding media costs and service/support). So much the better. I think it's obscene that M$ can get away with charging $400 per seat or whatever it is for their bloatware. - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 6:32:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6344A37B422 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:32:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@well.com) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f3IDVwm10513; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:31:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA09053; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:31:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09046; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:31:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:31:56 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@y.glue.umd.edu To: Brett Glass Cc: Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417125214.0456f470@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > That's called ligature. It's different from kerning in that it actually > combines two characters into one. (My late father was a typesetting > expert in the days before computer typesetting was common, and constantly > had to proofread to catch situations in which ligatures were not > substituted for the appropriate character pair.) What other character pairs are there? I flipped through a couple books and only found "fi". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 6:39:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14FAB37B423 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:39:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3IDdXq44163 ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:39:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA44316 ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:39:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:39:31 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: James Howard Cc: Brett Glass , Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) Message-ID: <20010418153931.R27000@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417125214.0456f470@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from howardjp@well.com on Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 09:31:56AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Howard said on Apr 18, 2001 at 09:31:56: > On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > > That's called ligature. It's different from kerning in that it actually > > combines two characters into one. (My late father was a typesetting > > expert in the days before computer typesetting was common, and constantly > > had to proofread to catch situations in which ligatures were not > > substituted for the appropriate character pair.) > > What other character pairs are there? I flipped through a couple books > and only found "fi". fl, ff, ffi, ffl. But Adobe fonts seem to include only fi and fl. I can live without the other ligatures, but "fi" without a ligature looks really ugly to me in many fonts (like times roman) -- the clash between the top of the "f" and the dot of the "i" is jarring. And "ffi" with only the last "fi" ligatured looks ugly too. I think it would be really neat if some future office suite used a properly ligatured "ffi" in its logo.... Some much older books also have ligatures for "ct", and at one time (2 centuries ago) I think there were even more. -Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 6:40:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE3F337B443 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:40:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA10975; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:40:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418073758.00c99ef0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:40:17 -0600 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: banner(6) Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , James Howard , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15069.17188.348607.736805@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418005020.045fc930@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010417124854.04560b30@localhost> <20010417095140.A74385@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416191256.R27477@lpt.ens.fr> <20010416193151.U27477@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010416211727.045766e0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418005020.045fc930@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:32 AM 4/18/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >> Fonts do not "produce" typefaces. They are >> renderings of typefaces. > >That's wrong. What Adobe calls fonts are programs That's because Adobe misuses the term. I come from a family which includes several generations of typesetters and type designers. The correct meaning of the word "font" has existed for hundreds of years, and abuse by one company can't change it. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 6:42:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [208.178.101.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2386037B422 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:42:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@well.com) Received: from well.com (howardjp@well.com [208.178.101.2]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id GAA29638; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by well.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA01627; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:42:19 -0700 (PDT) From: James Howard To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418073758.00c99ef0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > That's because Adobe misuses the term. I come from a family which > includes several generations of typesetters and type designers. > The correct meaning of the word "font" has existed for hundreds > of years, and abuse by one company can't change it. Everything Brett has said so far is confirmed by The Chicago Manual of Style. Just a note. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 7:22:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gratis.grondar.za (grouter.grondar.za [196.7.18.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3433137B422 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:22:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.133]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3IEM3w91400; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:22:05 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200104181422.f3IEM3w91400@gratis.grondar.za> To: James Howard Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) References: In-Reply-To: ; from James Howard "Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:31:56 -0400." Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:23:36 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What other character pairs are there? I flipped through a couple books > and only found "fi". Out of my head: fi ffi fl ffl fj M -- Mark Murray Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 8:42:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B187D37B423 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 08:42:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 24271 invoked by uid 100); 18 Apr 2001 15:42:54 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15069.46590.744626.351144@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:42:54 -0500 To: James Howard Cc: Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418073758.00c99ef0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Howard types: > On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > That's because Adobe misuses the term. I come from a family which > > includes several generations of typesetters and type designers. > > The correct meaning of the word "font" has existed for hundreds > > of years, and abuse by one company can't change it. > Everything Brett has said so far is confirmed by The Chicago Manual of > Style. Just a note. The only real point of disagreement is whether Adobe is correct in calling the collection of programs that produce renderings of a typeface a font, or whether that collection should be called a typeface. If the Chicago Manual of style actually discusses that, I'd love a reference for it. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 8:46: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 70FC137B423 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 08:45:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 24438 invoked by uid 100); 18 Apr 2001 15:45:57 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15069.46773.901325.959773@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:45:57 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: James Howard , Brett Glass , Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <20010418153931.R27000@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010417125214.0456f470@localhost> <20010418153931.R27000@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan types: > James Howard said on Apr 18, 2001 at 09:31:56: > > What other character pairs are there? I flipped through a couple books > > and only found "fi". > fl, ff, ffi, ffl. But Adobe fonts seem to include only fi and fl. > > I can live without the other ligatures, but "fi" without a ligature > looks really ugly to me in many fonts (like times roman) -- the clash > between the top of the "f" and the dot of the "i" is jarring. And "ffi" > with only the last "fi" ligatured looks ugly too. Get the expert collection for the font in question; they usually contain all those goodies. As well as nice things like non-lining figures and proper small caps sets. > I think it would be really neat if some future office suite > used a properly ligatured "ffi" in its logo.... So do I, but I'd put money on MS losing the desktop first. The desktop publishing revolution has pretty much killed good typographic practice. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 10: 7:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maila.ptd.net (mail1a.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8920037B422 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:07:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 29599 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2001 17:05:49 -0000 Received: from mail1.ha-net.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([207.44.96.65]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpa.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Apr 2001 17:05:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 27471 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2001 17:07:26 -0000 Received: from du53.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.53]) (envelope-sender ) by mail.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Apr 2001 17:07:26 -0000 Message-ID: <3ADDC97B.62B88DC2@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:06:03 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418003011.045ef3b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418064119.04710720@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 02:16 AM 4/18/2001, Trevor Johnson wrote: > > >I guess the FSF will have to run off donations when that happens. > > It should be running off of donations NOW. It's a 501(c)(3) non-profit > corporation, which means that profits from sales are considered > to be "unrelated business income." A 501(c)(3) must get at least half > of its income from donations -- a requirement which the FSF itself > claims that it has not met. (Its Web site says that more than half > of its income comes from sales.) The IRS should yank its tax-exempt > status. It's not at all clear that selling free software is an "unrelated" business for the FSF (26 USC 513). Even if it were, the FSF would just have to pay the tax on the income; it would not lose its status (26 USC 511). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 10:14:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0758037B422 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:14:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA28082; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:06:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAk_aq02; Wed Apr 18 10:06:54 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA16548; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:19:37 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104181719.KAA16548@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: banner(6) To: mark@grondar.za (Mark Murray) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:19:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: howardjp@well.com (James Howard), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200104181422.f3IEM3w91400@gratis.grondar.za> from "Mark Murray" at Apr 18, 2001 04:23:36 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by usr02.primenet.com id KAA16548 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > What other character pairs are there? I flipped through a couple boo= ks > > and only found "fi". >=20 > Out of my head: fi ffi fl ffl fj gg gk gx gc ae oe oa ai ei oi ui yi hu a:i o: au eu iu ou ey iy a:y o:y ie uo yo: (consider o: as =F6, etc.; provided for those who don't have ISO 8859-1 displays). It's not limited to Latin/Slavic languages; Hebrew and Arabic also have dipthongs: http://www.arbcol.macam98.ac.il/plurals.htm So does Korean: http://www.chosun.ac.kr/~ongmi/teaching/phonology/pho3.htm There are also mathematical notation dipthongs: http://www.mathnstuff.com/math/spoken/here/0front/pg10.htm (search for "dipthong"). So does Bangla (official language of Bangladesh, if you've never heard of it). And Greek -- I shouldn't forget Greek; many English dipthongs are derived from the Greek. Try an Altavista search for "dipthongs"... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 10:19: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-1.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36BC037B423 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:18:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93C8960CA; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 12:16:14 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 12:16:13 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-Sender: dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: James Howard , Brett Glass , Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <20010418153931.R27000@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: :James Howard said on Apr 18, 2001 at 09:31:56: :> On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: :> :> > That's called ligature. It's different from kerning in that it actually :> > combines two characters into one. (My late father was a typesetting :> > expert in the days before computer typesetting was common, and constantly :> > had to proofread to catch situations in which ligatures were not :> > substituted for the appropriate character pair.) :> :> What other character pairs are there? I flipped through a couple books :> and only found "fi". : :fl, ff, ffi, ffl. But Adobe fonts seem to include only fi and fl. : :Some much older books also have ligatures for "ct", and at one time (2 :centuries ago) I think there were even more. Ae, Oe, ae, and oe are pretty common. There's an sz that I've never seen used outside of examples. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 10:20: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150A637B422 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:20:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA13930; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:20:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAR4aygB; Wed Apr 18 10:19:47 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA16700; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:25:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104181725.KAA16700@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux To: trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:25:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010418032018.S12981-100000@blues.jpj.net> from "Trevor Johnson" at Apr 18, 2001 04:16:56 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The only parts of the GPL I see that mention money are: > > You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy, > and you may at your option offer warranty protection in exchange > for a fee. > > and > > [...]give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of > physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable > copy of the corresponding source code [...] > > Are you saying that hiring someone to make changes to a GPL'd program > would violate this second provision? No. He's saying that the intellectual property involved in a 40 line change that results from 3 years of research should be able to result in sufficient revenue to pay for that research. In orther words, brilliant ideas and hard intellectual effort should be rewarded. > > He approves of the trade in disks > > because (a) it furthers his agenda; (b) it allows the FSF to make a bit > > of cash; and (c) he knows that the "parasites" (his own word) who sell > > disks, such as Red Hat, will not be able to make a living as soon > > as high bandwidth connections to the Net are ubiquitous. > > I guess the FSF will have to run off donations when that happens. We will all be dead by the time the wire companies realize they are not content companies, and, even if they were, people don't want to buy content, they want to buy the right to use the wires (and for a reasonable price). I think he doesn't care what happens to the FSF after he's dead and/or after it achieves its design goal. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 12:32:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E205037B42C for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 12:32:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3IJWDq76812 ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:32:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id VAA58914 ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:32:06 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:32:06 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mark Murray , James Howard , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) Message-ID: <20010418213206.A58588@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200104181422.f3IEM3w91400@gratis.grondar.za> <200104181719.KAA16548@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200104181719.KAA16548@usr02.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 05:19:37PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 18, 2001 at 17:19:37: > > > What other character pairs are there? I flipped through a couple books > > > and only found "fi". > > > > Out of my head: fi ffi fl ffl fj > > gg gk gx gc ae oe oa ai ei oi ui yi hu a:i o: au eu iu ou ey iy > a:y o:y ie uo yo: Er, we were talking about ligatures (joining certain letter combinations together in print). Not diphthongs... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 13: 5:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF21537B422 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:05:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA29089; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:05:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Duncan Barclay Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dan Langille Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 18 Apr 2001 22:05:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Duncan Barclay writes: > Unfortunately, the rest of the business world doesn't agree :-(. Most people will accept a PDF document as long as they don't need to edit it. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 13:11:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B80E37B422 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:11:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA29118; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:11:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "BSDBlood Chat" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HTML editor References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 18 Apr 2001 22:11:20 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "BSDBlood Chat" writes: > Just wondering, what HTML editor do you guys use? Why? Emacs and vi. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 13:16:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34FC437B623 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:16:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA29165; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:16:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Brad Knowles Cc: Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FEP RFC References: <9bfsv9$2vrv$1@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw> <44wv8jpnw9.fsf@lowellg.ne.mediaone.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 18 Apr 2001 22:16:27 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > Anyway, this issue has certainly dampened my appreciation of > the particular document in question, although I don't believe that it > detracts from the humour of the overall series. IP over avian > carriers, indeed. ;-) With quality of service, even. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 13:17:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BDED37B424 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:17:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA29177; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:17:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Mark Murray Cc: James Howard , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) References: <200104181422.f3IEM3w91400@gratis.grondar.za> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 18 Apr 2001 22:17:12 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200104181422.f3IEM3w91400@gratis.grondar.za> Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray writes: > > What other character pairs are there? I flipped through a couple books > > and only found "fi". > Out of my head: fi ffi fl ffl fj Traditionally, the French have been using ligatures for st and ct as well. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 14:33: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E67D537B422 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:33:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA27976; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:32:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAd3aGB2; Wed Apr 18 14:32:47 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA11121; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:32:58 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104182132.OAA11121@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: banner(6) To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:32:58 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), mark@grondar.za (Mark Murray), howardjp@well.com (James Howard), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010418213206.A58588@lpt.ens.fr> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Apr 18, 2001 09:32:06 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > What other character pairs are there? I flipped through a couple books > > > > and only found "fi". > > > > > > Out of my head: fi ffi fl ffl fj > > > > gg gk gx gc ae oe oa ai ei oi ui yi hu a:i o: au eu iu ou ey iy > > a:y o:y ie uo yo: > > Er, we were talking about ligatures (joining certain letter > combinations together in print). Not diphthongs... Those are not ligatures; neither is the "Florin" dipthong that you guys keep using as an example of a "ligatured character" (there is no such thing as a ligatured cahracter, only a ligatured rendering of two or more characters). Ligatures are what you see in non-block Hebrew, Arabic, Tamil, Devengari, cursive English, and so on. If you guys need more information on the distinction between character sets and fonts, and rendering vs. representation, I suggest that you read the intro to the Unicode specification (or ISO 10646, if you have the $ for it), since that standard defines this distinction in great gory detail. By the "definitions" most of you (except Brett) keep throwing around, the Kanji 4-up charaters would be "ligatures". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 15:10:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3404F37B422 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:10:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 52F96755D; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 501391D89; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:13:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: James Howard Cc: Brett Glass , Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, James Howard wrote: :On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: : :> That's because Adobe misuses the term. I come from a family which :> includes several generations of typesetters and type designers. :> The correct meaning of the word "font" has existed for hundreds :> of years, and abuse by one company can't change it. :Everything Brett has said so far is confirmed by The Chicago Manual of :Style. Just a note. My grandfather is a printer. Has a Heidelberg in his garage. I don't need to steenkin' Chicago Manual of Style to confirm what Brett's saying. When he talks about a font, he's talking about something specific like Helvetica 12pt. medium. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 15:36:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9530C37B422 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:36:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@dmlb.org) Received: from dmlb.org ([62.253.135.104]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20010418223631.TKCV283.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@dmlb.org>; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 23:36:31 +0100 Received: from dmlb by dmlb.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 14q0Yo-0001Pt-00; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 23:36:30 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 23:36:30 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Barclay To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists Cc: Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Rahul Siddharthan Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18-Apr-01 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Duncan Barclay writes: >> Unfortunately, the rest of the business world doesn't agree :-(. > > Most people will accept a PDF document as long as they don't need to > edit it. True. We have one particular client (I work for an IC consultancy) that spent a week trying to get us to send them the Word document. Their excuse: that the PDF wouldn't print on their printers...Eventually they came clean and said that they wanted to cut and paste the text and diagrams into the reports they generate for there customers. A pointless waste of time. > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@dmlb.org | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. dmlb@freebsd.org| Steven King To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 15:49:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [208.178.101.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7315A37B422 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:49:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@well.com) Received: from well.com (howardjp@well.com [208.178.101.2]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA18479; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by well.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA04505; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:49:23 -0700 (PDT) From: James Howard To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Brett Glass , Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Jamie Bowden wrote: > My grandfather is a printer. Has a Heidelberg in his garage. I don't > need to steenkin' Chicago Manual of Style to confirm what Brett's saying. > When he talks about a font, he's talking about something specific like > Helvetica 12pt. medium. Fair enough, but a lot of people seem to be arguing with him without any factual basis. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 17:45:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns3.tstt.net.tt (ns3.tstt.net.tt [196.3.132.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DCF1137B422 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:45:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dchulhan@uwi.tt) Received: (qmail 178290 invoked by uid 0); 19 Apr 2001 00:45:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO uwi.tt) (209.94.221.31) by ns3.tstt.net.tt with SMTP; 19 Apr 2001 00:45:10 -0000 Message-ID: <3ADE3504.3E5F2A6C@uwi.tt> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:44:52 -0400 From: Dale Chulhan - Home Organization: COSTAATT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: BSD Version of TiVo like service Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok I have neither the skill, time nor resources fo this one but its an idea nonetheless: A free, open source service some what like TiVo: FreeBSD TVCard/Tuner Large, Fast Drive Pull Grid Listings from Gist or something, has to be some web/internet based source. Cause as far as I could guess this TiVo thing runs on Linux, so it looks like no big feat here. Or am I wrong and there IS such a project going on some where? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 20:51:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A781F37B424 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:51:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21249; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:51:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418213837.00bcb100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:50:56 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: Trevor Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010418151230.P27000@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418064119.04710720@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418003011.045ef3b0@localhost> <20010418032018.S12981-100000@blues.jpj.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418064119.04710720@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:12 AM 4/18/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >That is *not* the point. Cygnus (now under Red Hat) has made plenty >of money with custom modifications to GPL software. Not true. Cygnus was only marginally profitable until it began to sell packaged software, much of it licensed under licenses other than the GPL (e.g. the eCOS license, which does not contain the GPL's "poison pill"). As former Cygnus employee Bill Barr recently wrote on a public mailing list: >The support model is marginally profitable, but far from lucrative. When I >worked at Cygnus Solutions, the company had experienced some really tough >years in the past and was trying to transition to a product model. It's >much harder to sell support than it is to sell a box. Moreover, the >overwhelming majority of revenues came from semi-conductor manufacturers >and embedded systems shops, not the desktop/server software development >community. Overall, trying to sell support for free software tools to >software developers was pretty much a complete bust. In short, the myth that Cygnus was highly successful is just that: a myth. >If I want a >custom version of gnucash to suit the needs of my company, I can hire >Brett to make the modifications for me, and Brett can insist on being >paid lavishly for his work, especially since I'm asking him to touch >this disgusting GPL code. If I were to abandon ethics and do this, it is doubtful that I would be paid lavishly. What's more, if the code were absolutely brilliant stuff that could be licensed for large amounts of money or made the company lots of money, I would see none of it. I'd be on the endless consulting treadmill instead of being fairly rewarded for my work. Why any programmer would actually advocate being put on a treadmill (maybe more like a hamster wheel!) is beyond me. >I think it's obscene that M$ can get away with charging $400 >per seat or whatever it is for their bloatware. The GPL hurts Microsoft's potential competitors far more than it does Microsoft. Microsoft, which is now rich, can afford to throw hundreds of programmers at a project to reimplement everything from scratch. But small competitors need to concentrate on the innovative parts of their code and re-use existing code for the more mundane functions that no one should have to program again! The GPL prevents them from doing this and thus cripples their development process. If you want to see competition for Microsoft, oppose the GPL. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 20:53:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9725537B424 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:53:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21289; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:53:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418215113.04440410@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:53:17 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <3ADDC97B.62B88DC2@mail.ptd.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418003011.045ef3b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418064119.04710720@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:06 AM 4/18/2001, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >It's not at all clear that selling free software is an "unrelated" >business for the FSF (26 USC 513). They're not selling the software; they're selling copies of it. And, yes, it is unrelated business income. The "business" of a charity is not to sell things but to help those in need. The FSF does not target its efforts at the needy and makes more than half of its income from the sale of goods. Hence, it is not a legal 501(c)(3). > Even if it were, the FSF would just >have to pay the tax on the income; it would not lose its status (26 USC >511). Again, if it derives more than half of its income from unrelated business activities rather than donations, it loses its status. See IRS Publication 577. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 18 23:47: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5165637B423 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 23:47:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (root@ns1.unixathome.org [192.168.0.20]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3J6l2m70554 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:47:03 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200104190647.f3J6l2m70554@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 02:47:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: shipping a computer coast to coast Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone ever shipped a computer from coast to coast? Actually from Seattle to upper New York state? I'm looking for a rough idea of cost and time. Time isn't important. It can take two weeks for all I care. I'd just want safe transport that's all. thanks. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 0: 6:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BEC337B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 00:06:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14q8W4-0005a1-00; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 00:06:12 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 00:06:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: shipping a computer coast to coast In-Reply-To: <200104190647.f3J6l2m70554@ns1.unixathome.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > Anyone ever shipped a computer from coast to coast? Actually from > Seattle to upper New York state? I'm looking for a rough idea of cost > and time. Time isn't important. It can take two weeks for all I care. I'd > just want safe transport that's all. I shipped a server from Seattle (well really Marysville) to New Jersey via Federal Express a year ago. I think it was around $US65.00 (but I can't remember). It took two or three days. (A couple weeks later, qwest asked me where it was; so I used Federal Express's website to verify that they had signed for it the day it arrived.) Are you in Seattle? Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 0:12:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE84E37B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 00:12:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (root@ns1.unixathome.org [192.168.0.20]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3J7Cam70628; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:12:40 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200104190712.f3J7Cam70628@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 03:12:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: shipping a computer coast to coast Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200104190647.f3J6l2m70554@ns1.unixathome.org> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Apr 2001, at 0:06, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > > > Anyone ever shipped a computer from coast to coast? Actually from > > Seattle to upper New York state? I'm looking for a rough idea of cost > > and time. Time isn't important. It can take two weeks for all I care. > > I'd just want safe transport that's all. > > I shipped a server from Seattle (well really Marysville) to New Jersey via > Federal Express a year ago. I think it was around $US65.00 (but I can't > remember). It took two or three days. (A couple weeks later, qwest asked me > where it was; so I used Federal Express's website to verify that they had > signed for it the day it arrived.) Well, it if we $65 for that time period, I should be able to do it for less than that if I accept a longer delivery period. Cheap is the key. Did you pack the hard drives or anything special? Or just the standard shipping material that the boxes usually come in? > Are you in Seattle? No, but the box[es] which are being donated are. I'm about to move to Ottawa and one of the problems was what to do with the boxes I have now. I was going to look at shipping them from New Zealand to Ottawa but then this offer came up. I'm still looking at it -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 0:27: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 352D037B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 00:27:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 44833 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2001 07:26:59 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15070.37699.876831.515060@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 02:26:59 -0500 To: Jamie Bowden Cc: James Howard , Brett Glass , Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden types: > On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, James Howard wrote: > :On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > :> That's because Adobe misuses the term. I come from a family which > :> includes several generations of typesetters and type designers. > :> The correct meaning of the word "font" has existed for hundreds > :> of years, and abuse by one company can't change it. > :Everything Brett has said so far is confirmed by The Chicago Manual of > :Style. Just a note. > My grandfather is a printer. Has a Heidelberg in his garage. I don't > need to steenkin' Chicago Manual of Style to confirm what Brett's saying. > When he talks about a font, he's talking about something specific like > Helvetica 12pt. medium. So what did he call a collection of programs that are used to render a typeface? *That's* the question at hand. Quoting the comp.fonts faq (my references are in storage), question 1.12: A typeface is a set of lettters, numbers, and other symbolic characters that are related by repeating design elements [...]. A font is a computer file or program used to represent or create the typeface. That's fairly close to how Brett defined fonts (a definition I agree with): a font is a rendering of a typeface. The FAQ is specific to fonts on the computer, and basically defines a font as a rendering of a typeface as a computer file or program. Classicaly, when you bought a font you got a rendering of a typeface at a specific size and weight from a specific foundry designed to be set on a specific kind of machine. When you buy a non-scalable computer font, that's exactly what you get, except the machine they are set on is now software. Scalable computer fonts are the same, except they are no longer tied to a specific size. They still come in a specific weight (ok, I'm ignoring multiple master fonts) from a specific foundry designed to be set with a specific kind of program. Adobe Garamond rendered in PostScript is clearly the same typeface as Adobe Garamond rendered in TrueType - and equally clearly the two are *not* the same thing. As such, "scalable font" is a perfectly reasonable name for the things. Yes, the common habit of dropping the adjective "scalable" breaks the idea that fonts are a specific size. There are *lots* of examples of things that are available with a technological twist that started life with an adjective that was later dropped, in the process breaking an assumption that some property was fundamental to the thing in question. Dropping "digital" breaks the assumption that watches have hands. Dropping "night" breaks the assumption that ball games are played during the day. And so on. The same can be said about "scalable typefaces" - dropping the adjective just breaks the assumption that different renderings of the same typeface are still examples of that typeface. I think that's a more fundamental assumption. Further, this adjective begs the question - why are the non-scalable versions of these things called "fonts" instead of typefaces? With all deference due to the old practitioners of the field, I think the font foundry that created the name "scalable fonts" chose the write noun to provide with a new adjective. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 0:27: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A1537B43C for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 00:27:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14q8q6-0005aq-00; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 00:26:54 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 00:26:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: shipping a computer coast to coast In-Reply-To: <200104190712.f3J7Cam70628@ns1.unixathome.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > On 19 Apr 2001, at 0:06, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > > > On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > > > > > Anyone ever shipped a computer from coast to coast? Actually from > > > Seattle to upper New York state? I'm looking for a rough idea of cost > > > and time. Time isn't important. It can take two weeks for all I care. > > > I'd just want safe transport that's all. > > > > I shipped a server from Seattle (well really Marysville) to New Jersey via > > Federal Express a year ago. I think it was around $US65.00 (but I can't > > remember). It took two or three days. (A couple weeks later, qwest asked me > > where it was; so I used Federal Express's website to verify that they had > > signed for it the day it arrived.) > > Well, it if we $65 for that time period, I should be able to do it for less > than that if I accept a longer delivery period. Cheap is the key. Did you > pack the hard drives or anything special? Or just the standard shipping > material that the boxes usually come in? It is pretty cheap. http://rate.dmz.fedex.com/servlet/RateFinderServlet says: Marysville, Washington to Buffalo, NY, 45 lbs. FedEx ground, 4 days is $US27.34 http://www.fedex.com/us/rates/ is their rate finder. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 0:58:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EA8537B422 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 00:58:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (root@ns1.unixathome.org [192.168.0.20]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3J7wDm70773; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:58:13 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200104190758.f3J7wDm70773@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 03:58:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: shipping a computer coast to coast Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200104190712.f3J7Cam70628@ns1.unixathome.org> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Apr 2001, at 0:26, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > > > On 19 Apr 2001, at 0:06, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > > > > > > > Anyone ever shipped a computer from coast to coast? Actually from > > > > Seattle to upper New York state? I'm looking for a rough idea of > > > > cost and time. Time isn't important. It can take two weeks for all I > > > > care. I'd just want safe transport that's all. > > > > > > I shipped a server from Seattle (well really Marysville) to New Jersey > > > via Federal Express a year ago. I think it was around $US65.00 (but I > > > can't remember). It took two or three days. (A couple weeks later, > > > qwest asked me where it was; so I used Federal Express's website to > > > verify that they had signed for it the day it arrived.) > > > > Well, it if we $65 for that time period, I should be able to do it for > > less than that if I accept a longer delivery period. Cheap is the key. > > Did you pack the hard drives or anything special? Or just the standard > > shipping material that the boxes usually come in? > > It is pretty cheap. > > http://rate.dmz.fedex.com/servlet/RateFinderServlet says: > Marysville, Washington to Buffalo, NY, 45 lbs. FedEx ground, 4 days is > $US27.34 > > http://www.fedex.com/us/rates/ is their rate finder. Thank you. I think that's a fine price to pay for a replacement box... *Grin*. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 2:30:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09EFF37B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 02:30:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3J9URq29647 ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:30:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA86753 ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:30:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:30:22 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mark Murray , James Howard , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) Message-ID: <20010419113022.B84305@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010418213206.A58588@lpt.ens.fr> <200104182132.OAA11121@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200104182132.OAA11121@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 09:32:58PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 18, 2001 at 21:32:58: > > > > > What other character pairs are there? I flipped through a couple books > > > > > and only found "fi". > > > > > > > > Out of my head: fi ffi fl ffl fj > > > > > > gg gk gx gc ae oe oa ai ei oi ui yi hu a:i o: au eu iu ou ey iy > > > a:y o:y ie uo yo: > > > > Er, we were talking about ligatures (joining certain letter > > combinations together in print). Not diphthongs... > > Those are not ligatures; neither is the "Florin" dipthong that > you guys keep using as an example of a "ligatured character" > (there is no such thing as a ligatured cahracter, only a > ligatured rendering of two or more characters). We were talking of ligatured renderings of two or more characters, if you prefer to put it that way. In print, the only examples I've seen in English are fi, ffi, fl, ffl, ff and occasionally some rarer ones. These are what everyone calls ligatures. Certainly not au, eu, yi, etc. > Ligatures are what you see in non-block Hebrew, Arabic, Tamil, > Devengari, cursive English, and so on. Well, let's see what I can see in the examples I'm familiar with... In properly cursive English, entire words are written with all letters joined together. That's the way I was taught to write, and that's how old hand-written documents appear in the west, but these days in the west it seems kids aren't taught to join up their letters any more. Note that the printed "fi" ligature isn't part of cursive writing: you don't swallow the dot of the "i" into the curved part of the "f". In handwritten Devanagari (eg, Sanskrit/Hindi) one draws a line along the top of each word, continuously. In printed Devanagari, this line is normally broken (one segment coming from each printed letter) but some joined/compound characters still appear, arising from vowel symbols, certain special letter combinations, etc. Some are optional: for instance, the "d" and "dh" in my last name are separate letters in Devanagari, but one can write them either as one unit (with one below the other) or separately. Printed Tamil has very few combined letters, mainly certain vowels in combination with certain letters. Many of these conventional combinations which existed earlier have been abandoned in recent years, as being impractical for typewriters/computers. I'd put the "fi" in typesetting in English in the same category as the combined letters above, so I suppose that's what you do mean by "ligature". But none of the examples you give above fit, at least in any printed matter I've ever seen. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 3:38:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2515937B422 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 03:38:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from trevor@jpj.net) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3JAbv408511; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 06:37:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 06:37:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Trevor Johnson To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418213837.00bcb100@localhost> Message-ID: <20010419051419.Z5664-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Not true. Cygnus was only marginally profitable until it began to > sell packaged software, much of it licensed under licenses other than the > GPL (e.g. the eCOS license, which does not contain the GPL's "poison pill"). If by "poison pill" you mean the requirement to provide sources to those to whom you distribute binaries, you're wrong. See section 3.2 of http://sources.redhat.com/ecos/license.html . > >The support model is marginally profitable, but far from lucrative. When I > >worked at Cygnus Solutions, the company had experienced some really tough > >years in the past and was trying to transition to a product model. It's > >much harder to sell support than it is to sell a box. A box of plastic disks? > In short, the myth that Cygnus was highly successful is just that: a myth. The Red Hat stock for which the company was sold was worth $674 million at the time (about $75 million now). SCO and BSDI were sold for less (228 million for SCO--$34 million now). > >If I want a > >custom version of gnucash to suit the needs of my company, I can hire > >Brett to make the modifications for me, and Brett can insist on being > >paid lavishly for his work, especially since I'm asking him to touch > >this disgusting GPL code. > > If I were to abandon ethics and do this, What's unethical about it? > The GPL hurts Microsoft's potential competitors far more than it > does Microsoft. Microsoft, which is now rich, can afford to throw > hundreds of programmers at a project to reimplement everything > from scratch. But small competitors need to concentrate on the > innovative parts of their code and re-use existing code for the > more mundane functions that no one should have to program again! > The GPL prevents them from doing this and thus cripples their > development process. If you want to see competition for Microsoft, > oppose the GPL. The GPL is a limited grant of rights from the author to you. If you are willing to grant the same rights to others, then you may reuse the code. I suppose you want computer hobbyists, or government agencies, or someone, to provide their work to the "small competitors" with more rights and fewer restrictions than under the GPL. Well, some do, and some choose even more restrictive licenses (or no license, which is also more restrictive). If the GPL didn't exist, people would choose, or make up, something else that likely would not suit you either. Just as some of us don't enjoy being paid a pittance as a consultant, others don't want their work turned into a closed-source product. -- Trevor Johnson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 4:14:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8629937B443 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 04:14:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from trevor@jpj.net) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3JBEQs09385; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 07:14:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 07:14:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Trevor Johnson To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <200104181725.KAA16700@usr02.primenet.com> Message-ID: <20010419065023.A5664-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Are you saying that hiring someone to make changes to a GPL'd program > > would violate this second provision? > > No. He's saying that the intellectual property involved in a 40 > line change that results from 3 years of research should be able > to result in sufficient revenue to pay for that research. > > In orther words, brilliant ideas and hard intellectual effort > should be rewarded. The original program must have been brilliantly written, if it was worth spending so much time on the improvements. If the only way to get revenue from it is by selling binary copies and keeping the source secret, then the GPL would be an impediment. Perhaps the original author would be willing to offer you the program under some other conditions, perhaps in exchange for a share of the rewards. Wouldn't that be fair? > I think he doesn't care what > happens to the FSF after he's dead and/or after it achieves its > design goal. Good point. -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 5:12:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3A95637B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 05:12:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 51139 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2001 12:12:26 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15070.54826.847491.916792@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 07:12:26 -0500 To: Trevor Johnson Cc: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <20010419065023.A5664-100000@blues.jpj.net> References: <200104181725.KAA16700@usr02.primenet.com> <20010419065023.A5664-100000@blues.jpj.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Are you saying that hiring someone to make changes to a GPL'd program > > would violate this second provision? > > No. He's saying that the intellectual property involved in a 40 > line change that results from 3 years of research should be able > to result in sufficient revenue to pay for that research. What kind of idiot would invest 3 years in research without some kind of plan as to how to pay for the research? The implication that the GPL prevents you from creating revenue from a change is false; it only closes out one class of revenue streams, the ones that require restricting distribution of the modified program. Other methods exist, including but not limited to selling the results of running the program (A), selling the ability to run the program (B), or simply saving staff time (C). A) I wrote a 3d gas flow modelling code for a petrochemical engineering firm. They charged people out the wazoo for plant failure analysis that incorporated the results of those gas flow models. The investment in the program was a *lot* smaller than the investment in a single set of physical experiments. B) I've wrotten programs that were installed on the clients web server and accessable only via paid subscription. Selling one year subscriptions is a lot better than selling copies - the customer has to cough up more cash at the end of the year if they want to keep using the program. C) I wrote a program for that same petrochemical company that estimated the probability of the ignition of the gas clouds generated by that 3d model. This reduced the staff time to generate those estimates from days to minutes, and the development cost was recovered in less than a year. -- Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 5:15:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AFC837B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 05:15:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from trevor@jpj.net) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3JCFZw10953; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:15:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:15:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Trevor Johnson To: David Schwartz Cc: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , Subject: RE: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010419075750.P5664-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Except that usually the "original author" can't do that, because he's not > the *sole* author. The GPL does *not* reserve to the original author the > right to license derived works under alternate terms. It reserves that right > solely to the FSF. Just releasing something under the GPL doesn't give the FSF any say over what happens to it. That only happens if the author--or authors--transfers the copyright to the FSF (something they do encourage). I've seen lots of projects that have only one author, an observation that is weakly supported by the survey at http://www.ibiblio.org/osrt/develpro.html (see Figure 5 and the text after it). If there are several, of course it's less convenient for you. Sometimes gift horses aren't all we'd wish. -- Trevor Johnson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 8:33:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9213337B422 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:33:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1112"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K2KZ8BV8YA002J77@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:33:18 EDT Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:36:08 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: shipping a computer coast to coast To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3ADF05E8.2843D819@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <200104190647.f3J6l2m70554@ns1.unixathome.org> <200104190712.f3J7Cam70628@ns1.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > ... > > Well, it if we $65 for that time period, I should be able to do it for less > than that if I accept a longer delivery period. Cheap is the key. Did you > pack the hard drives or anything special? Or just the standard shipping > material that the boxes usually come in? > FWIW, a friend from Connecticut sent me an Alpha. It was cheaper (about $30) but it was done with the USPS because UPS wanted the "original" boxes, or at least something labelled COMPUTER. Normal packaging should be OK, but a HD I bought on eBay was extremely well packed. hth, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 8:34:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ACB537B42C for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:34:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27203; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:30:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419092019.04484770@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:30:13 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , Jamie Bowden From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: banner(6) Cc: James Howard , Mike Meyer , Rahul Siddharthan , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15070.37699.876831.515060@guru.mired.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:26 AM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >So what did he call a collection of programs that are used to render a >typeface? I didn't call it anything.... I said that Adobe, and later others, mistakenly called it a "font." The correct term is, or should be, "digital typeface," "scalable typeface," or "typeface rendering software." >Quoting the comp.fonts faq (my references are in storage), question >1.12: > > A typeface is a set of lettters, numbers, and other symbolic > characters that are related by repeating design elements [...]. > > A font is a computer file or program used to represent or > create the typeface. The latter is incorrect. >Classicaly, when you bought a font you got a rendering of a typeface >at a specific size and weight from a specific foundry designed to be >set on a specific kind of machine. Yes. >When you buy a non-scalable >computer font, that's exactly what you get, except the machine they >are set on is now software. Scalable computer fonts are the same, >except they are no longer tied to a specific size. No. The term "scalable font" is a misnomer; it really isn't a font at all. It produces MANY fonts from an internal description of a typeface. Bitstream got the terminology right in its typeface packages, which I used with Ventura Publisher in the early days of desktop publishing. In those days, CPUs were slow and often didn't have built in floating point units, so one rendered one's fonts in advance rather than on the fly. I remember calling up Bitstream's renderer and asking it to render fonts for me in half a dozen sizes each. I discovered that (a) the process took all night; and (b) it took up most of my voluminous 40 MB hard drive. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 8:37:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9964D37B422 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:37:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27277; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:37:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419093136.0461d220@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:37:21 -0600 To: dan@langille.org, "Jeremy C. Reed" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: shipping a computer coast to coast Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200104190712.f3J7Cam70628@ns1.unixathome.org> References: <200104190647.f3J6l2m70554@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:12 AM 4/19/2001, Dan Langille wrote: >Well, it if we $65 for that time period, I should be able to do it for less >than that if I accept a longer delivery period. Cheap is the key. "Cheap" can turn out to be very expensive when you're doing shipping. If you specify "ground" service, that may be exactly what you'll get: the computer will be ground into little bits! (I've always thought that shipping companies such as UPS should use the same categories as Texas barbecue houses: Ground, Chopped, and Sliced.) Any package NOT transported by air over such a large distance will be loaded and unloaded many times, dumped down chutes and ramps, hit by other heavier packages careening down said ramps at high speeds, and otherwise mistreated. If you dare to send a computer this way, better TRIPLE-wrap it: a box inside a box inside a box, with padding between ALL the layers. You may still have a damage claim even after all this work, so be sure to insure it. Better yet, send it by air. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 8:59:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail7.nc.rr.com (fe7.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13A3137B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:59:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@nc.rr.com) Received: from tbird-850-win2k ([66.26.225.2]) by mail7.nc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:59:02 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:01:14 -0400 From: Neill Robins X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.48f) Personal Reply-To: Neill Robins X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <27658677.20010419120114@nc.rr.com> To: Brett Glass Cc: dan@langille.org, "Jeremy C. Reed" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: shipping a computer coast to coast In-reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419093136.0461d220@localhost> References: <200104190647.f3J6l2m70554@ns1.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419093136.0461d220@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thursday, April 19, 2001, 11:37:21 AM, Brett Glass wrote: BG> At 01:12 AM 4/19/2001, Dan Langille wrote: >>Well, it if we $65 for that time period, I should be able to do it for less >>than that if I accept a longer delivery period. Cheap is the key. BG> "Cheap" can turn out to be very expensive when you're doing shipping. BG> If you specify "ground" service, that may be exactly what you'll get: BG> the computer will be ground into little bits! (I've always thought BG> that shipping companies such as UPS should use the same categories as BG> Texas barbecue houses: Ground, Chopped, and Sliced.) BG> Any package NOT transported by air over such a large distance will BG> be loaded and unloaded many times, dumped down chutes and ramps, BG> hit by other heavier packages careening down said ramps at high BG> speeds, and otherwise mistreated. If you dare to send a computer BG> this way, better TRIPLE-wrap it: a box inside a box inside a BG> box, with padding between ALL the layers. You may still have a BG> damage claim even after all this work, so be sure to insure it. BG> Better yet, send it by air. BG> --Brett I'll second this advice. I used to work at UPS during college, and those boxes go through A LOT of belts, turns, slides, shifts, and whatever else can possible happen. Plus, the people really don't care much. One point of advice. Putting FRAGILE on the box means NOTHING! Maybe just ship the hard drives Air or take them with you, if that is possible. As a side note: The school I was attending while working there ordered 160 Dell XPS266s to redo one of the entire computer labs. The problem was, they all came the same night. 160+ computer boxes, 160+ 19" monitor boxes, and a bunch of miscellaneous boxes. It was hell to say the least. They never stopped! Too bad they made the mistake of loading NT4 on all of them. But, I guess the Business school had to use them too! -- Good Luck, -Neill freebsd@nc.rr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 9: 8:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1311037B446 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:08:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27838; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:07:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419100521.046ad5f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:07:46 -0600 To: Neill Robins From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: shipping a computer coast to coast Cc: dan@langille.org, "Jeremy C. Reed" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <27658677.20010419120114@nc.rr.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419093136.0461d220@localhost> <200104190647.f3J6l2m70554@ns1.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419093136.0461d220@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:01 AM 4/19/2001, Neill Robins wrote: >As a side note: > >The school I was attending while working there ordered 160 Dell >XPS266s to redo one of the entire computer labs. The problem was, they >all came the same night. 160+ computer boxes, 160+ 19" monitor boxes, >and a bunch of miscellaneous boxes. It was hell to say the least. They >never stopped! > >Too bad they made the mistake of loading NT4 on all of them. But, I >guess the Business school had to use them too! You didn't happen to go to UT Austin, did you? Not long ago, I noticed that UT's Business School had suddenly started teaching Web design courses which caused the students to produce Web pages that ONLY worked with Microsoft Internet Explorer. It turned out that one of their instructors had been named a "Microsoft Scholar" -- and was being paid to hawk products and create courses that would lock schools and students into Microsoft software. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 9:32:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B1C2937B43E for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:32:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 56349 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2001 16:32:22 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.4885.960509.549593@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:32:21 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Jamie Bowden , James Howard , Rahul Siddharthan , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419092019.04484770@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419092019.04484770@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 01:26 AM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >So what did he call a collection of programs that are used to render a > >typeface? > I didn't call it anything.... I said that Adobe, and later others, > mistakenly called it a "font." You are answering a question that I didn't ask you, and wasn't directed at you. > The correct term is, or should be, "digital typeface," "scalable > typeface," or "typeface rendering software." So the non-scalable bitmaps that uses to display characters should be called a "typeface"? Since they are also digital, wouldn't "digital typeface" also be correct? > >Quoting the comp.fonts faq (my references are in storage), question > >1.12: > > > > A typeface is a set of lettters, numbers, and other symbolic > > characters that are related by repeating design elements [...]. > >Classicaly, when you bought a font you got a rendering of a typeface > >at a specific size and weight from a specific foundry designed to be > >set on a specific kind of machine. > Yes. > >When you buy a non-scalable > >computer font, that's exactly what you get, except the machine they > >are set on is now software. Scalable computer fonts are the same, > >except they are no longer tied to a specific size. > No. The term "scalable font" is a misnomer; it really isn't a font at > all. It produces MANY fonts from an internal description of a typeface. You're not refuting what I said, you're quibbling about the terminology. Since what I said demonstrates that "scalable font" is not a misnomer, you need to deal with the statement, not the terminology. Just because non-scalable fonts (someone got a better retronym?) don't produce many fonts doesn't mean that scalable fonts can't, in much the same way that analog watches always having hands don't mean that digital watches have to have them. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 9:52:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8356337B43C for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:52:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA112480; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:52:54 -0700 Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdQUGUya; Thu Apr 19 09:52:50 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA03074; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:53:12 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104191653.JAA03074@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux To: trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:53:12 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010419065023.A5664-100000@blues.jpj.net> from "Trevor Johnson" at Apr 19, 2001 07:14:26 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Are you saying that hiring someone to make changes to a GPL'd program > > > would violate this second provision? > > > > No. He's saying that the intellectual property involved in a 40 > > line change that results from 3 years of research should be able > > to result in sufficient revenue to pay for that research. > > > > In orther words, brilliant ideas and hard intellectual effort > > should be rewarded. > > The original program must have been brilliantly written, if it was worth > spending so much time on the improvements. If the only way to get revenue > from it is by selling binary copies and keeping the source secret, then > the GPL would be an impediment. Perhaps the original author would be > willing to offer you the program under some other conditions, perhaps in > exchange for a share of the rewards. Wouldn't that be fair? Except that he can't, since those 40 lines are a change to SQUID, which is under the GPL, and if he offers them at all, he has to offer the source code. That's really the point: under the GPL, there's no way to amortize R&D costs on brilliant additions resulting in derivative works. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 9:54: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398D537B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:54:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3JGrwq73354 ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:53:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA06173 ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:53:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:53:56 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Trevor Johnson Cc: David Schwartz , Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Message-ID: <20010419185356.M88142@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Trevor Johnson , David Schwartz , Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010419075750.P5664-100000@blues.jpj.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010419075750.P5664-100000@blues.jpj.net>; from trevor@jpj.net on Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 08:15:35AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Trevor Johnson said on Apr 19, 2001 at 08:15:35: > > Except that usually the "original author" can't do that, because he's not > > the *sole* author. The GPL does *not* reserve to the original author the > > right to license derived works under alternate terms. It reserves that right > > solely to the FSF. > > Just releasing something under the GPL doesn't give the FSF any say over > what happens to it. That only happens if the author--or > authors--transfers the copyright to the FSF (something they do encourage). Absolutely. > I've seen lots of projects that have only one author, an observation that > is weakly supported by the survey at > http://www.ibiblio.org/osrt/develpro.html (see Figure 5 and the text after > it). If there are several, of course it's less convenient for you. > Sometimes gift horses aren't all we'd wish. All the anti-GPL crusaders are people who want free software but don't want to abide by the original author's terms. If *you* want their software, you abide by *their* conditions. The writers of gcc did not intend that its distribution be restricted, and they chose a license with that point of view. No matter how brilliant your improvement to gcc, you have no right to take their work and close it up just because you want to sell your contribution restrictively. If you want closed source, write it all yourself. I don't think Brett and his ilk would think of demanding to do what they like with Borland's or Sun's software even if it's totally closed, but apparently GPL is fair game. There are at least two projects -- ghostscript and qt -- whose authors (Peter Deutsch and Troll Tech, respectively) were uneasy about the GPL because it does not *sufficiently* restrict commercial use. They wanted to sell commercial versions to people who wanted, while keeping it free for free software people, but were worried about loopholes in the GPL. So both wrote their own licenses. Deutsch chose to release old versions under the GPL, while Troll Tech eventually decided to dual-license their current versions because they wanted the community's goodwill. I simply can't imagine them, or anyone else who wanted to make money, choosing the BSD license. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 9:58:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 421B837B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:58:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f3JGwiq73604 ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:58:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA06396 ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:58:43 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:58:43 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Trevor Johnson , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Message-ID: <20010419185843.N88142@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Trevor Johnson , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010419065023.A5664-100000@blues.jpj.net> <200104191653.JAA03074@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200104191653.JAA03074@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 04:53:12PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 19, 2001 at 16:53:12: > > The original program must have been brilliantly written, if it was worth > > spending so much time on the improvements. If the only way to get revenue > > from it is by selling binary copies and keeping the source secret, then > > the GPL would be an impediment. Perhaps the original author would be > > willing to offer you the program under some other conditions, perhaps in > > exchange for a share of the rewards. Wouldn't that be fair? > > Except that he can't, since those 40 lines are a change to SQUID, > which is under the GPL, and if he offers them at all, he has to > offer the source code. If he's the sole author, he can offer it to you under a different license. If he's not the sole author, he has no right to offer it to you anyway. > That's really the point: under the GPL, there's no way to amortize > R&D costs on brilliant additions resulting in derivative works. Even if you were right: so? With closed-source, there's no way to *make* derivative works. And with a BSD-style license, the original author doesn't benefit if you make your brilliant addition, which (in your scenario) presumably couldn't have been made without the original code. (If it can be done without that code, go ahead and do it. Why do you want to benefit from the work of the SQUID authors?) Besides, you *can* dual-license, if you can get the agreement of all the copyright owners. - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 10: 8: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6B0B37B422 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:08:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1070"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K2L2JPV2MK00WUEX@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:07:59 EDT Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:10:50 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3ADF1C1A.6FFC234D@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010419075750.P5664-100000@blues.jpj.net> <20010419185356.M88142@lpt.ens.fr> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > ... > > There are at least two projects -- ghostscript and qt -- whose authors > (Peter Deutsch and Troll Tech, respectively) were uneasy about the GPL > because it does not *sufficiently* restrict commercial use. They > wanted to sell commercial versions to people who wanted, while keeping > it free for free software people, but were worried about loopholes in > the GPL. So both wrote their own licenses. Deutsch chose to release > old versions under the GPL, while Troll Tech eventually decided to > dual-license their current versions because they wanted the community's > goodwill. I simply can't imagine them, or anyone else who wanted to > make money, choosing the BSD license. > There's also the case of Kaffe. They started with a BSD license, after seeing companies adopt the code without giving back they turned GPL. It ended up being pretty bad for the consumers (us) because the code was never adopted by mozilla due to the poison pill (it's not even LGPLd). It was also good for Microsoft because they licensed the code for their own purposes. My $0.02 cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 11: 7:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8569D37B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:07:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29357; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:03:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419120132.0442a560@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:03:49 -0600 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: banner(6) Cc: Jamie Bowden , James Howard , Rahul Siddharthan , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15071.4885.960509.549593@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419092019.04484770@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419092019.04484770@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:32 AM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >You are answering a question that I didn't ask you, and wasn't >directed at you. I'm responding to an incorrect assertion about something I said (or, rather, didn't say). >So the non-scalable bitmaps that uses to display characters should be >called a "typeface"? Since they are also digital, wouldn't "digital >typeface" also be correct? Technically, these are fonts because they are already rendered. You may find these included with a digital typeface, though only occasionally. >You're not refuting what I said, you're quibbling about the >terminology. I'm not "quibbling" about terminology. I'm describing the correct use of the terms. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 11:11: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D501D37B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:11:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29444; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:10:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419120602.043f14b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:10:40 -0600 To: Trevor Johnson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , In-Reply-To: <20010419051419.Z5664-100000@blues.jpj.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418213837.00bcb100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:37 AM 4/19/2001, Trevor Johnson wrote: >> Not true. Cygnus was only marginally profitable until it began to >> sell packaged software, much of it licensed under licenses other than the >> GPL (e.g. the eCOS license, which does not contain the GPL's "poison pill"). > >If by "poison pill" you mean the requirement to provide sources to those >to whom you distribute binaries, you're wrong. See section 3.2 of >http://sources.redhat.com/ecos/license.html . I've read the eCOS license carefully. It does not require you to distribute the source for drivers, etc. which you link into Cygnus' product. The GPL does. >A box of plastic disks? A box of packaged, conventionally licensed software. >The Red Hat stock for which the company was sold was worth $674 million at >the time (about $75 million now). That's right: the stock was inflated by a stock market mania which has not yet fully self-corrected. Red Hat was spending its stockholders' money -- and paid too much for Cygnus. >What's unethical about it? It is unethical to use the GPL on one's software or to promote its use or proliferation. The reason for this is simple: the GPL is designed to hurt people who have done nothing wrong. The first principle of any code of ethics is, and must be, "do no harm." The GPL, and its malicious intent, clearly violate that principle. >If the GPL didn't exist, people would choose, or make up, >something else that likely would not suit you either. They'd likely use the MIT X license or BSD license. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 11:16:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCF5337B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:16:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29502; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:16:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419121230.00c6e870@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:16:06 -0600 To: Trevor Johnson , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: In-Reply-To: <20010419065023.A5664-100000@blues.jpj.net> References: <200104181725.KAA16700@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:14 AM 4/19/2001, Trevor Johnson wrote: >The original program must have been brilliantly written, if it was worth >spending so much time on the improvements. Non sequitur. It may be that the original is mundane and the improvements contribute most or all of the program's value. > If the only way to get revenue >from it is by selling binary copies and keeping the source secret, then >the GPL would be an impediment. It is the only business model that has been shown to be viable. > Perhaps the original author would be >willing to offer you the program under some other conditions, perhaps in >exchange for a share of the rewards. Wouldn't that be fair? It is more fair, and far more ethical, than attacking others' livelihoods! I often purchase "canned" libraries for my programming work. One of my favorites is Microhelp Muscle, which I use to this day even though it is no longer sold. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 11:27:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5B8F237B42C for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:27:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 59266 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2001 18:27:47 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.11811.739901.773677@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:27:47 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Jamie Bowden , James Howard , Rahul Siddharthan , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419120132.0442a560@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419092019.04484770@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419120132.0442a560@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > >You are answering a question that I didn't ask you, and wasn't > >directed at you. > I'm responding to an incorrect assertion about something I said > (or, rather, didn't say). Oh? What was the assertion? You quoted a question asked of someone else, then claimed you hadn't said any such thing. No one ever claimed you had said any such thing. > >So the non-scalable bitmaps that uses to display characters should be > >called a "typeface"? Since they are also digital, wouldn't "digital > >typeface" also be correct? > Technically, these are fonts because they are already rendered. You > may find these included with a digital typeface, though only > occasionally. In which case, a scalable font is a font because it's a rendering of the typeface. > >You're not refuting what I said, you're quibbling about the > >terminology. > I'm not "quibbling" about terminology. I'm describing the > correct use of the terms. Now you're quibbling about the meaning of quibbling. You haven't provided anything that even *remotely* looks like correct use of the terms; you've merely made assertions without providing any reasons, while ignoring the reasons I've provided for the common useage being correct. Since that seems to be the endpoint of *any* discussion with you, I'm not going to bother replying to another round of quibbling. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 11:30:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E5F37B422 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:30:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA21749; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:30:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAfJaqCQ; Thu Apr 19 11:30:06 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA16986; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:30:31 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104191830.LAA16986@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:30:30 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010419185843.N88142@lpt.ens.fr> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Apr 19, 2001 06:58:43 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Except that he can't, since those 40 lines are a change to SQUID, > > which is under the GPL, and if he offers them at all, he has to > > offer the source code. > > If he's the sole author, he can offer it to you under a different > license. If he's not the sole author, he has no right to offer it to > you anyway. Yes, he can offer it as a "binary weapon", where I have to put the pieces together. He can also offer it in another product, so long as it isn't a derivative work of SQUID. The problem comes when research is done in the context of a GPL product: does porting the results to a clean program remove the derivation from GPL'ed code taint? > > That's really the point: under the GPL, there's no way to amortize > > R&D costs on brilliant additions resulting in derivative works. > > Even if you were right: so? With closed-source, there's no way to > *make* derivative works. You're wrong. I can pay a German to disassemble and document the code in order to provide documentation of interfaces, and then use that documentation to produce a derivative work that uses the binary code in ways in which it was not intended to be used by the original author. Really, when we do any of this, we are exceeding the vision of the original author, and that's what we're asking to be permitted to do... > And with a BSD-style license, the original > author doesn't benefit if you make your brilliant addition, which (in > your scenario) presumably couldn't have been made without the original > code. (If it can be done without that code, go ahead and do it. Why > do you want to benefit from the work of the SQUID authors?) Maybe the original autor doesn't give a flying if they benefit. > Besides, you *can* dual-license, if you can get the agreement of all > the copyright owners. That's about the biggest "If" I've ever seen crammed into under 80 characters. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 11:33:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com (gadolinium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78A4637B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:33:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from birminghamweb@freeuk.com) Received: from [213.122.63.49] (helo=host213-122-63-49.btinternet.com) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 14qJFA-0006uz-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:33:29 +0100 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:33:11 +0100 (BST) From: Andrew McKay X-Sender: birminghamweb@fluoxetine.openirc.co.uk To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <15071.4885.960509.549593@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org MM> Just because non-scalable fonts (someone got a better retronym?) don't MM> produce many fonts doesn't mean that scalable fonts can't, in much the MM> same way that analog watches always having hands don't mean that MM> digital watches have to have them. It does if you use 'watch' to define 'a device to indicate the passage of time using hands pointing at numbers' and 'wibble' to define 'a device used to indicate the passage of time using electronic digits'. If the 'a rendering of a typeface in a specific size and weight' then a 'scalable font' is as oxymoronic as 'a static perambulator', 'a plastic glass' or the old favourite 'military intelligence'. This is especially true seeing as the word 'typeface' exists to define 'the information dictating the style of a font'. I *think* that's the point Brett has been trying to make. *************************************** Andrew McKay Located near Birmingham, England Catalogue available on request *************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 11:44: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F84C37B42C for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:44:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 59727 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2001 18:44:06 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.12790.558553.182177@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:44:06 -0500 To: Andrew McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: References: <15071.4885.960509.549593@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andrew McKay types: > MM> Just because non-scalable fonts (someone got a better retronym?) don't > MM> produce many fonts doesn't mean that scalable fonts can't, in much the > MM> same way that analog watches always having hands don't mean that > MM> digital watches have to have them. > It does if you use 'watch' to define 'a device to indicate the passage of > time using hands pointing at numbers' and 'wibble' to define 'a device > used to indicate the passage of time using electronic digits'. If the 'a > rendering of a typeface in a specific size and weight' then a 'scalable > font' is as oxymoronic as 'a static perambulator', 'a plastic glass' or > the old favourite 'military intelligence'. This is especially true seeing > as the word 'typeface' exists to define 'the information dictating the > style of a font'. I *think* that's the point Brett has been trying to > make. I've never seen "typeface" defined that way, and it's not the definition of a typeface that's been quoted - and accepted - here. A typefaceis a collection of letters, numbers and symbols & so on. Given that definition, "digital typeface" is a misnomer, because they are collections of programs that produce elements of the typeface when used, much like a font is a collection of metal bits that produce elements of a typeface when used. While the program collections in question don't fit properly into either category, they have more in common with fonts than typefaces, and cause fewer glitches in the nomenclature if used that way. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 11:45:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F51F37B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:45:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA06578; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:44:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAxDaiAm; Thu Apr 19 11:43:53 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA17455; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:45:39 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104191845.LAA17455@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux To: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:45:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15070.54826.847491.916792@guru.mired.org> from "Mike Meyer" at Apr 19, 2001 07:12:26 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Are you saying that hiring someone to make changes to a GPL'd program > > > would violate this second provision? > > > > No. He's saying that the intellectual property involved in a 40 > > line change that results from 3 years of research should be able > > to result in sufficient revenue to pay for that research. > > What kind of idiot would invest 3 years in research without some kind > of plan as to how to pay for the research? You clearly do not understand that some businesses can switch from a "service" to a "product" business model. In a "service" business model, you own the cable TV box, and rent it to the user, so no transfer of ownership takes place. In this model, you can use GPL'ed code in your product, but not have to put up with user demands for source code. In a "product" model, you sell the cable TV box, and thus the user owns the box, and a transfer of ownership takes place. In this model, you can _NOT_ use GPL'ed code in your product, since a user may demand source code, and therefore obtain your hard-won R&D results. > The implication that the GPL prevents you from creating revenue from a > change is false; it only closes out one class of revenue streams, the > ones that require restricting distribution of the modified > program. Correct. That was rather the point. It closes out revenue streams which require amoritzation of intellectual efforts over a product lifecycle for their success. > Other methods exist, including but not limited to selling the > results of running the program (A), This is my set top box metaphor. > selling the ability to run the program (B), Technically, this constitutes a limited transfer of ownership; under the GPL, I can demand the source code, so long as I have a paid subscription. > or simply saving staff time (C). My employee can demand the source code, and since no additional restrictions are permitted, their non-disclosure agreement with my company is not binding on them. This isn't really obvious, because the GPL glosses over the difference between the words "use" and "utilize". They imply "use", but what they really mean is "utilize". It is a hidden trap in the semantics of the license. You also missed: D) Being a paid support flunky for the software. E) Being a wage-slave for improvements to the software. F) Being paid a small amount for the initial developement as a work for hire for the benefit of the GPL, such that your wages need to be arbitrarily low, since your wages can not be amortized. The GPL thus promotes amateurs in place of trained engineers, unless you are willing to work until you die, and never be able to retire as a result of rewards for your efforts. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 12:15:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CCFFD37B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:15:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 60506 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2001 19:15:22 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.14666.204581.853258@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:15:22 -0500 To: Terry Lambert Cc: trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <200104191845.LAA17455@usr09.primenet.com> References: <15070.54826.847491.916792@guru.mired.org> <200104191845.LAA17455@usr09.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > > > > Are you saying that hiring someone to make changes to a GPL'd program > > > > would violate this second provision? > > > > > > No. He's saying that the intellectual property involved in a 40 > > > line change that results from 3 years of research should be able > > > to result in sufficient revenue to pay for that research. > > > > What kind of idiot would invest 3 years in research without some kind > > of plan as to how to pay for the research? > > You clearly do not understand that some businesses can switch > from a "service" to a "product" business model. You can say that after I pointed out that there were alternative business models? If you start a research project aimed at modifying a GPL'ed program, the "product" model clearly isn't available. Again - what kind of idiot would invest 3 years without a plan to pay for it? > > selling the ability to run the program (B), > > Technically, this constitutes a limited transfer of ownership; > under the GPL, I can demand the source code, so long as I have > a paid subscription. I think we need to clarify which version of the GPL we're talking about. The most recent one I have handy (Version 2) says at the top of paragraph 2: Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of running the Program is not restricted, [...] That seems to pretty clearly exempt this case. If I transferred the program to their computer so they could run it, it wouldn't be - but that's not what's happening here. > > or simply saving staff time (C). > My employee can demand the source code, and since no additional > restrictions are permitted, their non-disclosure agreement with > my company is not binding on them. That's certainly true, but has nothing to do with this model for funding the development. The staff timed saved is the same whether they can demand and distribute the source code or not. It'd be rather nasty if you were planning on funding the development by selling the results as a product, but that wasn't the plan described. > You also missed: No, I didn't miss them. They're clearly listed in the phrase "included but not limited to". > D) Being a paid support flunky for the software. > > E) Being a wage-slave for improvements to the software. > > F) Being paid a small amount for the initial developement > as a work for hire for the benefit of the GPL, such > that your wages need to be arbitrarily low, since your > wages can not be amortized. > > The GPL thus promotes amateurs in place of trained engineers, > unless you are willing to work until you die, and never be > able to retire as a result of rewards for your efforts. First, this means the GPL has the same effect as commercial software. Second, the working conditions you described apply to the vast majority of people in the US. Since many of them do manage to retire as a result of the rewards of their efforts, I'd say your final conclusion is false. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 12:53:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0171C37B42C for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:53:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01017; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:53:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419134744.0461c430@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:53:10 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: Trevor Johnson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010419185843.N88142@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200104191653.JAA03074@usr08.primenet.com> <20010419065023.A5664-100000@blues.jpj.net> <200104191653.JAA03074@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org t 10:58 AM 4/19/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> That's really the point: under the GPL, there's no way to amortize >> R&D costs on brilliant additions resulting in derivative works. > >Even if you were right: so? With closed-source, there's no way to >*make* derivative works. But the software is also not out there for anyone to use for free, destroying your markets and reducing the market value of its functionality to zero. > And with a BSD-style license, the original >author doesn't benefit if you make your brilliant addition, The original author doesn't benefit under the GPL, either. While in both cases the market value of his code (and its functionality) is reduced to zero, under the GPL his code will continue to compete unfairly with his future efforts and he cannot use future contributions in his own commercial softwere. >Besides, you *can* dual-license, if you can get the agreement of all >the copyright owners. Dual licensing is a sham and a trap. Other authors will contribute back under the GPL but are generally unwilling to allow the original author to use their work in something that's licensed any other way -- because THEY can't! The original author is, as is commonly said, screwed. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13: 0: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1296C37B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01083; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:59:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419135326.045df4d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:59:32 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Trevor Johnson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: David Schwartz , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010419185356.M88142@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010419075750.P5664-100000@blues.jpj.net> <20010419075750.P5664-100000@blues.jpj.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:53 AM 4/19/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >All the anti-GPL crusaders are people who want free software but don't >want to abide by the original author's terms. Not so. I oppose the GPL on ethical grounds. What's more, the terms of the GPL are not the "original author's terms." They're Stallman's terms, which most programmers who use the GPL stamp on the code without understanding the GPL's history, intent, and effects. Finally, those terms are unconscionable and constitute "copyright abuse." While the GPL is as yet untested in court, it would likely not survive a fair trial. (Any trial held today would likely be UNfair due to uneven funding; the FSF has a large war chest reserved for that battle.) >There are at least two projects -- ghostscript and qt -- whose authors >(Peter Deutsch and Troll Tech, respectively) were uneasy about the GPL >because it does not *sufficiently* restrict commercial use. TrollTech was foolish to knuckle under and GPL QT. It is doubtful that their company will survive that mistake. As for Peter Deutsch: He fell victim to the GPL's negative effects on authors and responded in precisely the wrong way: by creating a license that was similar to the GPL but still more viral and anti-business. The result: that version is largely ignored. The GPLed version of his code continues to circulate, depriving him of income. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13: 6:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 890D637B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:06:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01176; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:05:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:05:49 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15071.14666.204581.853258@guru.mired.org> References: <200104191845.LAA17455@usr09.primenet.com> <15070.54826.847491.916792@guru.mired.org> <200104191845.LAA17455@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:15 PM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >> D) Being a paid support flunky for the software. >> >> E) Being a wage-slave for improvements to the software. >> >> F) Being paid a small amount for the initial developement >> as a work for hire for the benefit of the GPL, such >> that your wages need to be arbitrarily low, since your >> wages can not be amortized. >> >> The GPL thus promotes amateurs in place of trained engineers, >> unless you are willing to work until you die, and never be >> able to retire as a result of rewards for your efforts. > >First, this means the GPL has the same effect as commercial software. Not true. Commercial software does not destroy markets or reduce programmers to the status of wage slave. >Second, the working conditions you described apply to the vast >majority of people in the US. Since many of them do manage to retire >as a result of the rewards of their efforts, I'd say your final >conclusion is false. That is because, in other fields of endeavor, they can build capital. One of the purposes of the GPL is to prevent the creation of intellectual property as capital -- at least by programmers. (The FSF, on the other hand, hoards intellectual property; that's why it requires that all contributors to sign their code over, lock, stock, and barrel. Not a bad arrangement: the FSF gets richer and the programmers get poorer.) --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13:10:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 11C5B37B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:10:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 62642 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2001 20:10:06 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.17950.439066.927510@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:10:06 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Terry Lambert , trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> References: <200104191845.LAA17455@usr09.primenet.com> <15070.54826.847491.916792@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 01:15 PM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > >> D) Being a paid support flunky for the software. > >> > >> E) Being a wage-slave for improvements to the software. > >> > >> F) Being paid a small amount for the initial developement > >> as a work for hire for the benefit of the GPL, such > >> that your wages need to be arbitrarily low, since your > >> wages can not be amortized. > >> > >> The GPL thus promotes amateurs in place of trained engineers, > >> unless you are willing to work until you die, and never be > >> able to retire as a result of rewards for your efforts. > > > >First, this means the GPL has the same effect as commercial software. > > Not true. Commercial software does not destroy markets or reduce > programmers to the status of wage slave. Try contracting for MicroSoft. > >Second, the working conditions you described apply to the vast > >majority of people in the US. Since many of them do manage to retire > >as a result of the rewards of their efforts, I'd say your final > >conclusion is false. > That is because, in other fields of endeavor, they can build > capital. One of the purposes of the GPL is to prevent the > creation of intellectual property as capital -- at least by > programmers. (The FSF, on the other hand, hoards intellectual > property; that's why it requires that all contributors to > sign their code over, lock, stock, and barrel. Not a bad > arrangement: the FSF gets richer and the programmers get > poorer.) You build capital as a programmer under conditions D, E and F the exact same way you do in all those other fields, working under those conditions. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13:11:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DACA37B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:11:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 5E62C755D; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A831D90; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:14:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Mike Meyer Cc: James Howard , Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <15070.37699.876831.515060@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: :Jamie Bowden types: :> On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, James Howard wrote: :> :On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: :> :> That's because Adobe misuses the term. I come from a family which :> :> includes several generations of typesetters and type designers. :> :> The correct meaning of the word "font" has existed for hundreds :> :> of years, and abuse by one company can't change it. :> :Everything Brett has said so far is confirmed by The Chicago Manual of :> :Style. Just a note. :> My grandfather is a printer. Has a Heidelberg in his garage. I don't :> need to steenkin' Chicago Manual of Style to confirm what Brett's saying. :> When he talks about a font, he's talking about something specific like :> Helvetica 12pt. medium. : :So what did he call a collection of programs that are used to render a :typeface? *That's* the question at hand. Usually crap, as most suck. It's amazing just how bad computers are at displaying fonts properly. He uses some program to layout offset jobs, but for real precision small scale stuff, the movable type that changed the world is far superior. :Quoting the comp.fonts faq (my references are in storage), question :1.12: : : A typeface is a set of lettters, numbers, and other symbolic : characters that are related by repeating design elements [...]. : : A font is a computer file or program used to represent or : create the typeface. :That's fairly close to how Brett defined fonts (a definition I agree :with): a font is a rendering of a typeface. The FAQ is specific to :fonts on the computer, and basically defines a font as a rendering of :a typeface as a computer file or program. I wasn't disagreeing with Brett. Reread my post, I was confirming that a font was indeed a specific size and wieght of a typeface. I have always thought the way computer companies use the word font was incredibly stupid. :Classicaly, when you bought a font you got a rendering of a typeface :at a specific size and weight from a specific foundry designed to be :set on a specific kind of machine. When you buy a non-scalable :computer font, that's exactly what you get, except the machine they :are set on is now software. Scalable computer fonts are the same, :except they are no longer tied to a specific size. They still come in :a specific weight (ok, I'm ignoring multiple master fonts) from a :specific foundry designed to be set with a specific kind of :program. Adobe Garamond rendered in PostScript is clearly the same :typeface as Adobe Garamond rendered in TrueType - and equally clearly :the two are *not* the same thing. As such, "scalable font" is a :perfectly reasonable name for the things. I don't give a shit how many FAQ's have been written, a couple hundred years of continuous use into and including current time far outweighs one industry's stupidity on the matter. Typefaces are weighted and sized to create fonts. Period. :With all deference due to the old practitioners of the field, I think :the font foundry that created the name "scalable fonts" chose the :write noun to provide with a new adjective. I'd say they chose the 'right' one, if didn't think the way the terms are used in the computer industry is totally stupid. It's a typeface. You can scale it up or down, and change the weight on the fly to create a font that meets your current need. There is no need to redefine terms because some pointy haired moron can't read and comprehend a dictionary. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13:13:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CFE137B422 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:13:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (root@ns1.unixathome.org [192.168.0.20]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3JKDfm73628 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:13:42 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200104192013.f3JKDfm73628@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:13:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Reply-To: dan@langille.org In-reply-to: <15071.17950.439066.927510@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Apr 2001, at 15:10, Mike Meyer wrote: > Brett Glass types: > > > Not true. Commercial software does not destroy markets or reduce > > programmers to the status of wage slave. > > Try contracting for MicroSoft. I'm a programmer. I get paid for my work. And by no means can it be considered a slave wage. > You build capital as a programmer under conditions D, E and F the > exact same way you do in all those other fields, working under those > conditions. Can I pay my mortgage with that capital? -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13:25:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 516A137B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:25:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 63280 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2001 20:25:28 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.18872.620776.754228@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:25:28 -0500 To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Mike Meyer , James Howard , Rahul Siddharthan , Joseph Mallett , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: References: <15070.37699.876831.515060@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden types: > On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > :Jamie Bowden types: > :> On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, James Howard wrote: > :> :On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > :> :> That's because Adobe misuses the term. I come from a family which > :> :> includes several generations of typesetters and type designers. > :> :> The correct meaning of the word "font" has existed for hundreds > :> :> of years, and abuse by one company can't change it. > :> :Everything Brett has said so far is confirmed by The Chicago Manual of > :> :Style. Just a note. > :> My grandfather is a printer. Has a Heidelberg in his garage. I don't > :> need to steenkin' Chicago Manual of Style to confirm what Brett's saying. > :> When he talks about a font, he's talking about something specific like > :> Helvetica 12pt. medium. > : > :So what did he call a collection of programs that are used to render a > :typeface? *That's* the question at hand. > Usually crap, as most suck. It's amazing just how bad computers are at > displaying fonts properly. He uses some program to layout offset jobs, > but for real precision small scale stuff, the movable type that changed > the world is far superior. Generally, yes. Every thing that computers have done to make text easier to generate and access has also made the resulting texts uglier, with the world wide web being the current extreme of both trends. > :Quoting the comp.fonts faq (my references are in storage), question > :1.12: > : > : A typeface is a set of lettters, numbers, and other symbolic > : characters that are related by repeating design elements [...]. > : > : A font is a computer file or program used to represent or > : create the typeface. > > :That's fairly close to how Brett defined fonts (a definition I agree > :with): a font is a rendering of a typeface. The FAQ is specific to > :fonts on the computer, and basically defines a font as a rendering of > :a typeface as a computer file or program. > I wasn't disagreeing with Brett. Reread my post, I was confirming that a > font was indeed a specific size and wieght of a typeface. I have always > thought the way computer companies use the word font was incredibly > stupid. I wasn't saying you disagreed with Brett. Reread *my* post. > :With all deference due to the old practitioners of the field, I think > :the font foundry that created the name "scalable fonts" chose the > :write noun to provide with a new adjective. > I'd say they chose the 'right' one, if didn't think the way the terms are > used in the computer industry is totally stupid. It's a typeface. Regular PS fonts have exactly *one* thing in common with a typeface, which makes calling them a typeface a real stretch. > You can scale it up or down, and change the weight on the fly to create a > font that meets your current need. There is no need to redefine terms > because some pointy haired moron can't read and comprehend a dictionary. You can't change the weight of regular PS fonts - that takes a different font. Only I guess you'd be happier if I said it takes a different typeface. Since I've never seen a typeface - only the result of using the font created from them - I'm curious as to what the controls that you change to get cold type look like. Got a reference where those are described. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13:28:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E2DFD37B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:28:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 63416 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2001 20:28:27 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.19051.343972.458299@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:28:27 -0500 To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <200104192013.f3JKDfm73628@ns1.unixathome.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> <200104192013.f3JKDfm73628@ns1.unixathome.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille types: > On 19 Apr 2001, at 15:10, Mike Meyer wrote: > > Brett Glass types: > > > Not true. Commercial software does not destroy markets or reduce > > > programmers to the status of wage slave. > > Try contracting for MicroSoft. > I'm a programmer. I get paid for my work. And by no means can it be > considered a slave wage. I'd say the same thing myself. And, contrary to the nonsense that Brett was spouting, it doesn't matter whether I'm working on GPL'ed softare or not. > > You build capital as a programmer under conditions D, E and F the > > exact same way you do in all those other fields, working under those > > conditions. > Can I pay my mortgage with that capital? Since people working in other fields seem to manage it, you ought to be able to. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13:35:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB4B37B43C for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:35:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01565; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:34:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419143024.045d2100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:34:47 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , dan@langille.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15071.19051.343972.458299@guru.mired.org> References: <200104192013.f3JKDfm73628@ns1.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> <200104192013.f3JKDfm73628@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:28 PM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >> I'm a programmer. I get paid for my work. And by no means can it be >> considered a slave wage. > >I'd say the same thing myself. And, contrary to the nonsense that >Brett was spouting, it doesn't matter whether I'm working on GPL'ed >softare or not. It will. Because the GPLed software will hurt your ability to make money as a programmer. This is the stated purpose of the GPL. In the short run, shortsighted companies may pay you for writing GPLed code. But companies that produce GPLed code will not and cannot survive. In the long run the GPL will destroy the company and hence your job. If I were you, I wouldn't trade a few dollars in the short term to destroy my long term prospects as a professional. >> > You build capital as a programmer under conditions D, E and F the >> > exact same way you do in all those other fields, working under those >> > conditions. >> Can I pay my mortgage with that capital? > >Since people working in other fields seem to manage it, you ought to >be able to. People working in other fields generally recognize, and do not engage in, activities that would destroy their own jobs. It is only because programmers are often unaware of the realities of economics and business that some seem susceptible to this trap. Don't fall into it! --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13:35:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C84A37B42C for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:35:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01561; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:34:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419142203.046206d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:29:46 -0600 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: Mike Meyer , Terry Lambert , trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15071.17950.439066.927510@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> <200104191845.LAA17455@usr09.primenet.com> <15070.54826.847491.916792@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:10 PM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >> Not true. Commercial software does not destroy markets or reduce >> programmers to the status of wage slave. > >Try contracting for MicroSoft. Most of Microsoft's contractors were recently ruled by a court to be de facto employees, and therefore entitled to stock options and other benefits. But in most cases, contracting IS a treadmill. This is why it pays to license commercially useful software rather than creating it as a work for hire. >You build capital as a programmer under conditions D, E and F the >exact same way you do in all those other fields, working under those >conditions. Not so. The small businessperson on other fields can create and build capital by growing a business rather than being a wage slave. Even as an employee, one can do so via profit-sharing and equity in the company. Of course, if you create GPLed software, you cannot do that. Ditto if your company creates GPLed software. This is the reason why companies such as Red Hat are not viable; they do not own the software of which they sell copies. And the market value of what they sell (other than the vanishingly small value of the pressed disk and book) is zero, becaus anyone can cquire it for free. Not a good basis for a business. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13:37:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 26DA937B42C for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:37:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 63947 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2001 20:37:11 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.19575.331776.630180@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:37:11 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Terry Lambert , trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419142203.046206d0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> <200104191845.LAA17455@usr09.primenet.com> <15070.54826.847491.916792@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419142203.046206d0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > >You build capital as a programmer under conditions D, E and F the > >exact same way you do in all those other fields, working under those > >conditions. > Not so. The small businessperson on other fields can create and build > capital by growing a business rather than being a wage slave. Even as > an employee, one can do so via profit-sharing and equity in the company. We're not talking about small businesspeople, we're talking about the vast majority of people in the US. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13:37:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com (tungsten.btinternet.com [194.73.73.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C933E37B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:37:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from birminghamweb@freeuk.com) Received: from [213.122.52.53] (helo=host213-122-52-53.btinternet.com) by tungsten.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #83) id 14qLAr-0001jT-00; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:37:10 +0100 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:36:53 +0100 (BST) From: Andrew McKay X-Sender: birminghamweb@fluoxetine.openirc.co.uk To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: Mike Meyer Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <15071.12790.558553.182177@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org MM> I've never seen "typeface" defined that way, and it's not the MM> definition of a typeface that's been quoted - and accepted - here. OK then. Thanks for not allowing me to use different words to say exactly the same thing. I'll reiterate the definitions that have been agreed upon in this thread: typeface - 'a design for a set of characters, regardless of size' font - 'a typeface scaled to a specific size and density'. I'll also quote the Free OnLine Dictionary Of Computing (http://www.foldoc.org)'s definitions of the words in a computing context: font - A set of images representing the characters from some particular character set in a particular size and typeface. The image of each character may be encoded either as a bitmap (in a bitmap font) or by a higher-level description in terms of lines and areas (an outline font). There are several different computer representations for fonts, the most widely known are Adobe Systems, Inc.'s PostScript font definitions and Apple's TrueType. Most window systems support displaying different fonts on the screen and printing them. typeface The style or design of a font. Other independent parameters are size, boldness (thickness of lines), and obliqueness (a sheer transformation applied to the characters, not to be confused with a specifically designed italic font). I think the problem we have here is that there are two ways that a computer can render fonts, as has been discussed on this thread before. They may consist of a single font and simply shrink or grow this font. On Tuesday you yourself said: 'If your postscript font merely multiplies by a factor of X, it's a pretty poor font.' If it simply takes a font and scales it up and down with no due regard to the overall usability of the result then I would agree it is a pretty poor font but, combining the definitions of the word 'scalable' and 'font' this is exactly what it is. If, however, the 'scalable font' has knowledge of what it need do to render a readable/usable font, no matter what the size &c. (and again, I refer you to one of your own posts on Tuesday: 'Correctly written PostScript fonts behave as you describe, maintaining density as you scale them.') then it is no longer acting as a 'scalable font' but is now acting as a font rendering engine working off a 'digital typeface'. So, in conclusion, the behaviour of a 'scalable font', by definition MUST be different from that of a 'digital typeface'. QED. That is EXACTLY what Brett was saying when you harshly accused him of 'quibbling about terminology'. MM> typeface is a collection of letters, numbers and symbols & so on. MM> Given that definition, "digital typeface" is a misnomer, because MM> they are collections of programs that produce elements of the MM> typeface when used, much like a font is a collection of metal bits MM> that produce elements of a typeface when used. By the same token a cat is a fish and so all cats can breathe underwater. A typeface is NOT 'a collection of letters, numbers and symbols and so on'. A typeface is the design information required to render a font. Blueprints are NOT a building. They are the design information required to produce a building. Digital typeface is more correct because they contain the design information required to render fonts digitally. MM> While the program collections in question don't fit properly into MM> either category, they have more in common with fonts than typefaces I'll not bother repeating myself. You are wrong in this assertion. *************************************** Andrew McKay Located near Birmingham, England Catalogue available on request *************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13:40:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E7FC37B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:40:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 64161 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2001 20:40:13 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.19757.648512.704094@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:40:13 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419143024.045d2100@localhost> References: <200104192013.f3JKDfm73628@ns1.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419143024.045d2100@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > >> I'm a programmer. I get paid for my work. And by no means can it be > >> considered a slave wage. > >I'd say the same thing myself. And, contrary to the nonsense that > >Brett was spouting, it doesn't matter whether I'm working on GPL'ed > >softare or not. > It will. Because the GPLed software will hurt your ability to make > money as a programmer. This is the stated purpose of the GPL. > > In the short run, shortsighted companies may pay you for writing GPLed > code. But companies that produce GPLed code will not and cannot > survive. In the long run the GPL will destroy the company and hence > your job. If I were you, I wouldn't trade a few dollars in the short > term to destroy my long term prospects as a professional. That only applies to companies that can't see beyond the "product" model for revenue streams. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13:41: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3CF337B43F for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:41:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01689; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:40:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419143603.045e61e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:40:55 -0600 To: Neill Robins From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: shipping a computer coast to coast Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <18215615213.20010419161031@nc.rr.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419100521.046ad5f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419093136.0461d220@localhost> <200104190647.f3J6l2m70554@ns1.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419093136.0461d220@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419100521.046ad5f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:10 PM 4/19/2001, Neill Robins wrote: >Nope, I am attending (a few courses) at North Carolina State >University. Sometimes, though, I feel like Microsoft has a pretty big >hold on them. A few weeks ago they were happily dishing out Windows XP >to anyone that wanted one and they recruit a bunch down here. Wasn't NCSU the school that, at the behest of Microsoft, wanted to require every student to have a Windows laptop? I seem to remember that faculty and students who favored the Mac and UNIX were protesting this. I also recall that some faculty members who were pushing for the Microsoft laptops had posted ads for Microsoft Internet Explorer on their Web sites on University-owned computers, and were part of the same "Microsoft Scholars" program. This was in 1998 or 1999, so I don't know if you were there at the time. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13:47:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA06F37B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:47:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 73A91756B; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70AEC1D8F; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:51:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: <15071.18872.620776.754228@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: :Jamie Bowden types: :> On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: :> :> My grandfather is a printer. Has a Heidelberg in his garage. I don't :> :> need to steenkin' Chicago Manual of Style to confirm what Brett's saying. :> :> When he talks about a font, he's talking about something specific like :> :> Helvetica 12pt. medium. :> :So what did he call a collection of programs that are used to render a :> :typeface? *That's* the question at hand. :> Usually crap, as most suck. It's amazing just how bad computers are at :> displaying fonts properly. He uses some program to layout offset jobs, :> but for real precision small scale stuff, the movable type that changed :> the world is far superior. :Generally, yes. Every thing that computers have done to make text :easier to generate and access has also made the resulting texts :uglier, with the world wide web being the current extreme of both :trends. Didn't used to be. A lot of the software for the Mac in the late 80s and early 90s was specific to printing presses, and would properly render on screen to allow you to see what would actually come off the press (within the limits of the resolution of the monitor you were displaying to). :> :With all deference due to the old practitioners of the field, I think :> :the font foundry that created the name "scalable fonts" chose the :> :write noun to provide with a new adjective. :> I'd say they chose the 'right' one, if didn't think the way the terms are :> used in the computer industry is totally stupid. It's a typeface. :Regular PS fonts have exactly *one* thing in common with a typeface, :which makes calling them a typeface a real stretch. Changing the size and leaving the wieght in tact is still a different font. That they only allow you to change a single parameter does not change that. It just means you have really ugly fonts if you shrink or enlarge too small. :> You can scale it up or down, and change the weight on the fly to create a :> font that meets your current need. There is no need to redefine terms :> because some pointy haired moron can't read and comprehend a dictionary. :You can't change the weight of regular PS fonts - that takes a :different font. Only I guess you'd be happier if I said it takes a :different typeface. And so would most classically trained graphic artists. A friend and former coworker could render fonts on paper using only a pencil and his talent to scale and weight them freehand. :Since I've never seen a typeface - only the result of using the font :created from them - I'm curious as to what the controls that you :change to get cold type look like. Got a reference where those are :described. My grandfather let me set type as a kid. I learned a lot of interesting things, but I have no formal reference for you, sorry. One of the more interesting bits is that while using a font that has the same width is good on a computer screen, variable width is what is optimal for actual print work. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13:49:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F79537B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:49:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01822; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:49:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419144844.00bd9440@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:49:25 -0600 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: Mike Meyer , Terry Lambert , trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15071.19575.331776.630180@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419142203.046206d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> <200104191845.LAA17455@usr09.primenet.com> <15070.54826.847491.916792@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419142203.046206d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:37 PM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >We're not talking about small businesspeople, we're talking about the >vast majority of people in the US. The overwhelming majority of workers in the US own, or are employed by, small businesses. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13:50:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from firehouse.net (rdu26-60-051.nc.rr.com [66.26.60.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ED39937B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:50:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abc@firehouse.net) Received: (qmail 96909 invoked by uid 1000); 19 Apr 2001 20:54:07 -0000 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:54:06 -0400 From: Alan Clegg To: Brett Glass Cc: Neill Robins , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: shipping a computer coast to coast Message-ID: <20010419165406.E93123@diskfarm.firehouse.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419100521.046ad5f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419093136.0461d220@localhost> <200104190647.f3J6l2m70554@ns1.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419093136.0461d220@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419100521.046ad5f0@localhost> <18215615213.20010419161031@nc.rr.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419143603.045e61e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419143603.045e61e0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 02:40:55PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Unless the network is lying to me again, Brett Glass said: > At 02:10 PM 4/19/2001, Neill Robins wrote: > > >Nope, I am attending (a few courses) at North Carolina State > >University. Sometimes, though, I feel like Microsoft has a pretty big > >hold on them. A few weeks ago they were happily dishing out Windows XP > >to anyone that wanted one and they recruit a bunch down here. > > Wasn't NCSU the school that, at the behest of Microsoft, wanted to > require every student to have a Windows laptop? I know that UNC (that school up the street from NCSU) *does* require laptops which all come with the default Microsoft operating system. I don't know if they require you to keep it intact or not. AlanC -- perl -le '$_="6110>374086;2064208213:90<307;55";tr[0->][ LEOR\!AUBGNSTY];print' echo "6110>374086;2064208213:90<307;55" | tr '0->' ' LEOR\!AUBGNSTY' alan@clegg.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13:51: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDFA737B42C for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:51:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01854; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:50:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419144936.00bd5850@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:50:46 -0600 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: Mike Meyer , dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15071.19757.648512.704094@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419143024.045d2100@localhost> <200104192013.f3JKDfm73628@ns1.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419143024.045d2100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:40 PM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >That only applies to companies that can't see beyond the "product" >model for revenue streams. Productization is the ONLY business model that has ever proven to be viable for software. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 13:58:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E3F8D37B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:58:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 64996 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2001 20:58:09 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.20833.602920.193381@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:58:09 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Terry Lambert , trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419144844.00bd9440@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419142203.046206d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> <200104191845.LAA17455@usr09.primenet.com> <15070.54826.847491.916792@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419144844.00bd9440@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 02:37 PM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >We're not talking about small businesspeople, we're talking about the > >vast majority of people in the US. > The overwhelming majority of workers in the US own, or are employed by, > small businesses. An overwhelming majority are employed by small businesses. The tiny minority that own them aren't relevant. -- Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 14: 0:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7FD6637B422 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:00:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 65121 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2001 21:00:09 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.20953.880914.347576@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:00:09 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419144936.00bd5850@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419143024.045d2100@localhost> <200104192013.f3JKDfm73628@ns1.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419144936.00bd5850@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 02:40 PM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >That only applies to companies that can't see beyond the "product" > >model for revenue streams. > Productization is the ONLY business model that has ever proven to > be viable for software. Not true. The largest producer of software in the US throgh the early 80s never produced a single product, and they're still around. Even if you discount them, the majority of software produced during that period wasn't produced productized. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 14: 1:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail7.nc.rr.com (fe7.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A57337B422 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:01:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@nc.rr.com) Received: from tbird-850-win2k ([66.26.225.2]) by mail7.nc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:01:01 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:03:13 -0400 From: Neill Robins X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.48f) Personal Reply-To: Neill Robins X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1618777600.20010419170313@nc.rr.com> To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: shipping a computer coast to coast In-reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419143603.045e61e0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419100521.046ad5f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419093136.0461d220@localhost> <200104190647.f3J6l2m70554@ns1.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419093136.0461d220@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419100521.046ad5f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419143603.045e61e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thursday, April 19, 2001, 4:40:55 PM, Brett Glass wrote: BG> At 02:10 PM 4/19/2001, Neill Robins wrote: >>Nope, I am attending (a few courses) at North Carolina State >>University. Sometimes, though, I feel like Microsoft has a pretty big >>hold on them. A few weeks ago they were happily dishing out Windows XP >>to anyone that wanted one and they recruit a bunch down here. BG> Wasn't NCSU the school that, at the behest of Microsoft, wanted to BG> require every student to have a Windows laptop? I seem to remember BG> that faculty and students who favored the Mac and UNIX were protesting BG> this. I also recall that some faculty members who were pushing for the BG> Microsoft laptops had posted ads for Microsoft Internet Explorer on BG> their Web sites on University-owned computers, and were part of the BG> same "Microsoft Scholars" program. This was in 1998 or 1999, so I BG> don't know if you were there at the time. BG> --Brett Yeah, '98 was when I first transferred there, and they were planning on making students buy laptops. I am glad they didn't, though. They whole school is definitely Microsoft-ized, and the only departments that don't use them are the graphics (Macs, of course) and CS/engineering. One interesting note though. They don't have Internet Explorer on ANYTHING on campus, only Netscape 4.75. Some classes even require IE (some crappy Flash work for assignments). It's horrible. If they spent half the money on UNIX equipement that they spent on Micrsoft stuff..... Later, -Neill freebsd@nc.rr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 14: 8:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (sub24-23.member.dsl-only.net [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4F237B422 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:08:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@1nova.com) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4D47618CC; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4484D18CB; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:32:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: shipping a computer coast to coast In-Reply-To: <200104190647.f3J6l2m70554@ns1.unixathome.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Anyone ever shipped a computer from coast to coast? Actually from > Seattle to upper New York state? I'm looking for a rough idea of cost > and time. Time isn't important. It can take two weeks for all I care. I'd > just want safe transport that's all. About 5 days or so, anywhere between $10 to $50 depending on weight and who you ship it with. Normally UPS is about $22 or so for what I use to ship out. Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 14:12: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Mail6.nc.rr.com (fe6.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED4237B42C for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:11:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@nc.rr.com) Received: from tbird-850-win2k ([66.26.225.2]) by Mail6.nc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:11:48 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:13:59 -0400 From: Neill Robins X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.48f) Personal Reply-To: Neill Robins X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <7219423419.20010419171359@nc.rr.com> To: Alan Clegg Cc: Brett Glass , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: shipping a computer coast to coast In-reply-To: <20010419165406.E93123@diskfarm.firehouse.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419100521.046ad5f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419093136.0461d220@localhost> <200104190647.f3J6l2m70554@ns1.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419093136.0461d220@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419100521.046ad5f0@localhost> <18215615213.20010419161031@nc.rr.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419143603.045e61e0@localhost> <20010419165406.E93123@diskfarm.firehouse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thursday, April 19, 2001, 4:54:06 PM, Alan Clegg wrote: AC> Unless the network is lying to me again, Brett Glass said: >> At 02:10 PM 4/19/2001, Neill Robins wrote: >> >> >Nope, I am attending (a few courses) at North Carolina State >> >University. Sometimes, though, I feel like Microsoft has a pretty big >> >hold on them. A few weeks ago they were happily dishing out Windows XP >> >to anyone that wanted one and they recruit a bunch down here. >> >> Wasn't NCSU the school that, at the behest of Microsoft, wanted to >> require every student to have a Windows laptop? AC> I know that UNC (that school up the street from NCSU) *does* require laptops AC> which all come with the default Microsoft operating system. I don't know AC> if they require you to keep it intact or not. AC> AlanC I never wanted to attend there, but the girl-to-guy ratio is like 10:1!!! Bunch of frickin' non-techies up there! -Neill freebsd@nc.rr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 14:12:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 52A5E37B43C for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:12:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 65597 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2001 21:12:07 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.21670.973343.199718@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:12:06 -0500 To: Jamie Bowden Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: References: <15071.18872.620776.754228@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden types: > On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > :Jamie Bowden types: > :> On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > :> :> My grandfather is a printer. Has a Heidelberg in his garage. I don't > :> :> need to steenkin' Chicago Manual of Style to confirm what Brett's saying. > :> :> When he talks about a font, he's talking about something specific like > :> :> Helvetica 12pt. medium. > :> :So what did he call a collection of programs that are used to render a > :> :typeface? *That's* the question at hand. > :> Usually crap, as most suck. It's amazing just how bad computers are at > :> displaying fonts properly. He uses some program to layout offset jobs, > :> but for real precision small scale stuff, the movable type that changed > :> the world is far superior. > :Generally, yes. Every thing that computers have done to make text > :easier to generate and access has also made the resulting texts > :uglier, with the world wide web being the current extreme of both > :trends. > Didn't used to be. A lot of the software for the Mac in the late 80s and > early 90s was specific to printing presses, and would properly render on > screen to allow you to see what would actually come off the press (within > the limits of the resolution of the monitor you were displaying to). Odd - the Mac is one of the reasons that PostScript (aka "Crap") fonts became popular. I know there was some good software for typesetting on it, which could well have made things better. On the other hand, the stuff that was actually popular led to a general decline in the quality of printed texts. The WWW is much the same way - used properly by someone who knows what they are doing, it can lead to the quicker distribution of texts of the best quality that was produced on the Mac. As used by most people, using it for a few hours makes you want to curl up with a good book (Credit that to Edward Tufte). > :> :With all deference due to the old practitioners of the field, I think > :> :the font foundry that created the name "scalable fonts" chose the > :> :write noun to provide with a new adjective. > :> I'd say they chose the 'right' one, if didn't think the way the terms are > :> used in the computer industry is totally stupid. It's a typeface. > :Regular PS fonts have exactly *one* thing in common with a typeface, > :which makes calling them a typeface a real stretch. > Changing the size and leaving the wieght in tact is still a different > font. That they only allow you to change a single parameter does not > change that. It just means you have really ugly fonts if you shrink or > enlarge too small. As discussed elswhere (and used as evidence for them being typefaces), correctly designed PS fonts should properly. > :Since I've never seen a typeface - only the result of using the font > :created from them - I'm curious as to what the controls that you > :change to get cold type look like. Got a reference where those are > :described. > My grandfather let me set type as a kid. I learned a lot of interesting > things, but I have no formal reference for you, sorry. One of the more > interesting bits is that while using a font that has the same width is > good on a computer screen, variable width is what is optimal for actual > print work. I was being facetious. I'd be surprised if there was ever a piece of *hardware* you could call a typeface. Thanx, http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 14:21:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4FC3E37B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:21:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 65950 invoked by uid 100); 19 Apr 2001 21:21:39 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.22243.763885.211483@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:21:39 -0500 To: Andrew McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: banner(6) In-Reply-To: References: <15071.12790.558553.182177@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andrew McKay types: > MM> I've never seen "typeface" defined that way, and it's not the > MM> definition of a typeface that's been quoted - and accepted - here. > OK then. Thanks for not allowing me to use different words to say exactly > the same thing. I'll reiterate the definitions that have been agreed upon > in this thread: Accepted. > typeface - 'a design for a set of characters, regardless of size' > > font - 'a typeface scaled to a specific size and density'. Note that neither of these two definitions describes what adobe calls a "scalable font". > I'll also quote the Free OnLine Dictionary Of Computing > (http://www.foldoc.org)'s definitions of the words in a computing context: > > font - > > A set of images representing the characters from some particular > character set in a particular size and typeface. The image of each > character may be encoded either as a bitmap (in a bitmap font) or by a > higher-level description in terms of lines and areas (an outline font). That definition *does* cover what Adobe calls a "scalable font". > I think the problem we have here is that there are two ways that a > computer can render fonts, as has been discussed on this thread before. > They may consist of a single font and simply shrink or grow this font. On > Tuesday you yourself said: > > 'If your postscript font merely multiplies by a factor of X, it's a > pretty poor font.' > > If it simply takes a font and scales it up and down with no due regard to > the overall usability of the result then I would agree it is a pretty poor > font but, combining the definitions of the word 'scalable' and 'font' this > is exactly what it is. > > 'Correctly written PostScript fonts behave as you describe, maintaining > density as you scale them.') > > then it is no longer acting as a 'scalable font' but is now acting as a > font rendering engine working off a 'digital typeface'. In other words, cheap knockoffs are "scalable fonts", but properly designed systems are "digital typefaces". Gads, the attempts to retrofit this terminology just keeps getting uglier and uglier! Well, a digital typeface must be a digital "design for a set of characters". But that doesn't describe the object in question *either*. They aren't a design; they're an implementation of a design. > So, in conclusion, the behaviour of a 'scalable font', by definition MUST > be different from that of a 'digital typeface'. QED. That is EXACTLY what > Brett was saying when you harshly accused him of 'quibbling about > terminology'. > > MM> typeface is a collection of letters, numbers and symbols & so on. > MM> Given that definition, "digital typeface" is a misnomer, because > MM> they are collections of programs that produce elements of the > MM> typeface when used, much like a font is a collection of metal bits > MM> that produce elements of a typeface when used. > > By the same token a cat is a fish and so all cats can breathe underwater. > A typeface is NOT 'a collection of letters, numbers and symbols and so > on'. A typeface is the design information required to render a font. > Blueprints are NOT a building. They are the design information required to > produce a building. Digital typeface is more correct because they > contain the design information required to render fonts digitally. That's actually the only good argument I've seen for why they should be called typefaces. It still doesn't quite feel right, because you've shifted the active verb from "being" to "containing". A collection of metal fonts contains the information needed to render the fonts; does that make that collection of fonts a typeface? Thanx, http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 15: 5:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail7.nc.rr.com (mail7.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060DF37B422 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:05:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@nc.rr.com) Received: from tbird-850-win2k ([66.26.225.2]) by mail7.nc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:08:19 -0400 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:10:31 -0400 From: Neill Robins X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.48f) Personal Reply-To: Neill Robins X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <18215615213.20010419161031@nc.rr.com> To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: shipping a computer coast to coast In-reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419100521.046ad5f0@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419093136.0461d220@localhost> <200104190647.f3J6l2m70554@ns1.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419093136.0461d220@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419100521.046ad5f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thursday, April 19, 2001, 12:07:46 PM, Brett Glass wrote: BG> At 10:01 AM 4/19/2001, Neill Robins wrote: >>As a side note: >> >>The school I was attending while working there ordered 160 Dell >>XPS266s to redo one of the entire computer labs. The problem was, they >>all came the same night. 160+ computer boxes, 160+ 19" monitor boxes, >>and a bunch of miscellaneous boxes. It was hell to say the least. They >>never stopped! >> >>Too bad they made the mistake of loading NT4 on all of them. But, I >>guess the Business school had to use them too! BG> You didn't happen to go to UT Austin, did you? Not long ago, I noticed BG> that UT's Business School had suddenly started teaching Web design BG> courses which caused the students to produce Web pages that ONLY worked BG> with Microsoft Internet Explorer. It turned out that one of their BG> instructors had been named a "Microsoft Scholar" -- and was being paid BG> to hawk products and create courses that would lock schools and students BG> into Microsoft software. BG> --Brett Nope, I am attending (a few courses) at North Carolina State University. Sometimes, though, I feel like Microsoft has a pretty big hold on them. A few weeks ago they were happily dishing out Windows XP to anyone that wanted one and they recruit a bunch down here. They do have a full lab (over 200) Sun Ultra10s for the computer science/engineering folks, thank goodness, but I think they all run Solaris or something. A few have Linux running, but that is a fairly small amount. One of my favorite teachers has an OpenBSD server for students working on CGI stuff since he is really big into security. Oh well.... -Neill freebsd@nc.rr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 15:46: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17EC637B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:46:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA09627; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:45:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAI8aiWs; Thu Apr 19 15:45:51 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA22437; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:46:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104192246.PAA22437@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux To: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:46:06 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15071.14666.204581.853258@guru.mired.org> from "Mike Meyer" at Apr 19, 2001 02:15:22 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > You clearly do not understand that some businesses can switch > > from a "service" to a "product" business model. > > You can say that after I pointed out that there were alternative > business models? Yes. I can categorically state that your proposed revenue models require input proportional to the revenue they generate, whereas proprietary software models have revenue which is based on market valuation, not on effort input, and that the difference between those two values is the amount of money you can show as profit for shareholders, as well as applying to R&D costs. It's pretty obvious if you think about it. Microsoft is going to spend $12B in R&D this year. What is RedHat going to spend? > If you start a research project aimed at modifying a GPL'ed > program, the "product" model clearly isn't available. You are confusing "R" with "D". The model is vailable, but is contingent on a business plan. Business plans can change. Since the model is, as you say, unavailable, clearly, GPL'ed code is not desirable to use when starting a business where you don't want to be locked into a single revenue model or exit strategy. > Again - what kind of idiot would invest 3 years without a > plan to pay for it? A researcher, who has only the materials available at hand, including open source software, from which to build upon to do his research. > > > selling the ability to run the program (B), > > > > Technically, this constitutes a limited transfer of ownership; > > under the GPL, I can demand the source code, so long as I have > > a paid subscription. > > I think we need to clarify which version of the GPL we're talking > about. The most recent one I have handy (Version 2) says at the top of > paragraph 2: > > Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not > covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of > running the Program is not restricted, [...] > > That seems to pretty clearly exempt this case. If I transferred the > program to their computer so they could run it, it wouldn't be - but > that's not what's happening here. You are mistaken. If it is outside of the scope of the license, then rights are not granted by the license, and therefore no rights exist. As far as running the program, the question is whether, when the program is run on the web server on behalf of a user, whether it is you running the program, or whether it is the user running the program using your equipment. I think you need to read some of RMS' recent writing on the subject of Application Service Providers, since it's clear that such an arrangement would be against the spirit of the GPL. If you want to argue my interpretation, take it up with IBM's legal department, since it is the lawyers, not me, who arrived at this interpretation. > > > or simply saving staff time (C). > > My employee can demand the source code, and since no additional > > restrictions are permitted, their non-disclosure agreement with > > my company is not binding on them. > > That's certainly true, but has nothing to do with this model for > funding the development. The staff timed saved is the same whether > they can demand and distribute the source code or not. It'd be rather > nasty if you were planning on funding the development by selling the > results as a product, but that wasn't the plan described. Fine. If you could point me toward the GNU equivalent of Microsoft Office, I'd be happy to use it. It should be able to read and write all Microsoft file formats, since my staff must communicate with real world customers in order for me to make money. > > D) Being a paid support flunky for the software. > > > > E) Being a wage-slave for improvements to the software. > > > > F) Being paid a small amount for the initial developement > > as a work for hire for the benefit of the GPL, such > > that your wages need to be arbitrarily low, since your > > wages can not be amortized. > > > > The GPL thus promotes amateurs in place of trained engineers, > > unless you are willing to work until you die, and never be > > able to retire as a result of rewards for your efforts. > > First, this means the GPL has the same effect as commercial software. No. I can own a commercial software company, even if it's just me and some guy named "Bob". Microsoft is not the only commercial software company. > Second, the working conditions you described apply to the vast > majority of people in the US. I won't debate economics with you; let's suffice to say that this is a matter of choice on their part. > Since many of them do manage to retire as a result of the rewards > of their efforts, I'd say your final conclusion is false. "Many" != "vast majority". Let us say "retire at a monetary standard of living equal to or in excess of the working standard of living". That dumps out all the people with union pensions who you care to point to, etc.. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 15:52:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD43B37B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:52:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA09532; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:51:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAz8a4us; Thu Apr 19 15:50:46 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA22484; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:52:39 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104192252.PAA22484@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux To: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:52:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15071.19051.343972.458299@guru.mired.org> from "Mike Meyer" at Apr 19, 2001 03:28:27 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > Not true. Commercial software does not destroy markets or reduce > > > > programmers to the status of wage slave. > > > Try contracting for MicroSoft. > > I'm a programmer. I get paid for my work. And by no means can it be > > considered a slave wage. > > I'd say the same thing myself. And, contrary to the nonsense that > Brett was spouting, it doesn't matter whether I'm working on GPL'ed > softare or not. Let's cut the BS: I want to be able to build a piece of software, and sell the rights to use it, for as long as the market will pay for those rights. I'm not some ivory tower academeic who can live on "genius" grants resulting from my public speaking. I want to be paid the fair market value of my labor. > > > You build capital as a programmer under conditions D, E and F the > > > exact same way you do in all those other fields, working under those > > > conditions. > > Can I pay my mortgage with that capital? > > Since people working in other fields seem to manage it, you ought to > be able to. As long as there's not some moron in that field trying to socialize the results of my labor, I probably could. Why only pick on software? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 15:54: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA94637B43C for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:53:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA09957; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:52:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAHzaaut; Thu Apr 19 15:52:18 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA22492; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:54:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104192254.PAA22492@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux To: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:54:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15071.19575.331776.630180@guru.mired.org> from "Mike Meyer" at Apr 19, 2001 03:37:11 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >You build capital as a programmer under conditions D, E and F the > > >exact same way you do in all those other fields, working under those > > >conditions. > > Not so. The small businessperson on other fields can create and build > > capital by growing a business rather than being a wage slave. Even as > > an employee, one can do so via profit-sharing and equity in the company. > > We're not talking about small businesspeople, we're talking about the > vast majority of people in the US. 50% of all people employed in the U.S. are employed by businesses with 100 or fewer employees. This is according to the Y2000 United States Census. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 16:11:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C829C37B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:11:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA16770; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:11:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAAKayQG; Thu Apr 19 16:11:34 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA22635; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:11:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104192311.QAA22635@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux To: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:11:49 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15071.19757.648512.704094@guru.mired.org> from "Mike Meyer" at Apr 19, 2001 03:40:13 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > That only applies to companies that can't see beyond the "product" > model for revenue streams. Company A pays R&D costs out of pocket for one year to develop a product P, which it releases under GPL. Total developement costs are $1,000,000,000. The total market for product P is $10,000,000,000. If company A sells all copies of product P, their gross profit is $9,000,000,000. The total number of units of product P which are sold is 100,000, which gives a unit price of $100: $90 gross profit +$10 amortized R&D costs ---- $100 unit cost Company B buys one copy of product P, and demands the source code. They search and replace "Company A" with "Company B", and replease product P'. Total developement costs are $10,000. $90 gross profit $.10 amortized R&D costs ------ $90.10 unit cost Assume that the gross profit turns into net profit the same way in both companies. Company B can undercut the price of the product by a staggering $9.89, and still make a $.01 per unit profit -- $1000. Further, they can screw over companies A', A'', A''', etc., the same way, to make a total overall profit. Under no circumstances can the per unit revenue for company A _ever_ drop below $9.90 per unit, since it would then be impossible to recover R&D costs, and then it's off to bankruptcy court for company A. --- Meet Joe Consumer; his purchase decision making process is: BUY(COST(P) > COST(P') ? P' : P) How do you expect comapny A to stay in business? What? By forming an R&D consortium with company B and all current and future possible competitors in perpetuity, to share developement costs, and make the money off support contracts? What about company Q, who comes along after the R&D is done, and says "Hey! This looks like a big market! Why don't I just demand the code under the GPL, and then make my money without paying the consortium R&D costs? I'll be able to undercut the prices that the consortium members ar charging!". Fantasy: Can't we all just get along? Reality: There will always be a company Q. --- I know: we just won't fund R&D. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 16:13: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19A9537B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:13:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA43978; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:12:59 -0700 Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdCG4Uaa; Thu Apr 19 16:12:56 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA22648; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:13:22 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104192313.QAA22648@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:13:21 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200104192254.PAA22492@usr01.primenet.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 19, 2001 10:54:11 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > We're not talking about small businesspeople, we're talking about the > > vast majority of people in the US. > > 50% of all people employed in the U.S. are employed by businesses > with 100 or fewer employees. This is according to the Y2000 United > States Census. Sorry; that's 91% of all people employed in the U.S.. Small business accounts for %50 of the U.S. Gross National Product. Sorry for mixing the percentages up... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 17: 0:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C92437B43E for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:00:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (localhost.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3K00LA40642 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:00:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:00:21 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: Subject: FSCKing spammers Message-ID: <20010419195242.S40077-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just got a spam with this at the bottom. Your email was made available to us publicly through this web page. Those of you farther down the list may want to block chinainfoland.com [4.23.19.135] webb2e.com [4.23.19.156] -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is to computing what a McDonalds Certified Food Specialist is to fine cuisine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 17:12:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D130137B43C for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:12:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (xeon.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.18]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3K0Ccm74693; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:12:38 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200104200012.f3K0Ccm74693@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: jack Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:12:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FSCKing spammers Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: In-reply-to: <20010419195242.S40077-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Apr 2001, at 20:00, jack wrote: > I just got a spam with this at the bottom. > > Your email was made available to us publicly through href='http://www.freebsd.org/./ports/afterstep.html'>this web > page. > > Those of you farther down the list may want to block > chinainfoland.com [4.23.19.135] > webb2e.com [4.23.19.156] Interesting. I already had 4.23.19 blocked. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 18:48:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A7937B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:48:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA05493; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:48:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419194439.0444ecc0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:48:33 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Trevor Johnson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: David Schwartz , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010419185356.M88142@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010419075750.P5664-100000@blues.jpj.net> <20010419075750.P5664-100000@blues.jpj.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Trevor Johnson said on Apr 19, 2001 at 08:15:35: > >> Just releasing something under the GPL doesn't give the FSF any say over >> what happens to it. That only happens if the author--or >> authors--transfers the copyright to the FSF (something they do encourage). Not so. The FSF also misleads programmers by stating that the way to place the GPL on their code is to state that it is licensed under Version X "or any future version" of the GPL. So, all the FSF has to do is come out with a new version of the GPL and then make a minor revision to the product, releasing it as the "next" version. Users will flock to the latest version, and the new GPL will apply. This is a very real threat. Recently, the FSF and Bruce Perens have been making noises about modifying the GPL to place onerous requirements on ASP, ISPs, or anyone else who uses GPLed softwre to provide a service. The idea is to "pry" modifications and additions made by service providers out of them, thus depriving them of any advantage they might have in their fields due to in-house software development. These guys really don't want ANYONE to make money from software. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 18:59: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reiters.org (reiters.org [64.40.73.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FFF537B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 18:58:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from denny@reiters.org) Received: by reiters.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id EF2F9D626; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:58:55 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:58:55 -0500 From: Dennis Reiter To: jack Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FSCKing spammers Message-ID: <20010419205855.A96829@reiters.org> References: <20010419195242.S40077-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.2i In-Reply-To: <20010419195242.S40077-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net>; from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net on Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 08:00:21PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoting jack (jack@germanium.xtalwind.net): > I just got a spam with this at the bottom. > > Your email was made available to us publicly through href='http://www.freebsd.org/./ports/afterstep.html'>this web > page. > > Those of you farther down the list may want to block > chinainfoland.com [4.23.19.135] > webb2e.com [4.23.19.156] I think I would be complaining to BBN Planet, their upstream. -- Denny Reiter | denny@reiters.org Madison River Communications | reiterd@madisonriver.net www.scapegoats.org I'll be damned if I can't win when I'm keeping score. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 19: 3:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA8937B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:03:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05694; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:03:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419200040.04595390@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:03:31 -0600 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: Mike Meyer , Terry Lambert , trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15071.20833.602920.193381@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419144844.00bd9440@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419142203.046206d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> <200104191845.LAA17455@usr09.primenet.com> <15070.54826.847491.916792@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419144844.00bd9440@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:58 PM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >An overwhelming majority are employed by small businesses. The tiny >minority that own them aren't relevant. Both are relevant. Many of those businesses are, literally, "Mom and Pop" businesses, most or all of whose employees are also owners. But regardless of whether or not an employee of a small softwre business is an owner, the GPL will hurt it by preventing reuse of code that's freely available to users. Because the market value of that code and its functionality is zero, these businesses may have to spend thousands of hours rewriting code that has zero market value before they can add value. This is one of many deleterious effects that the GPL has on innovation. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 19: 5:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E02A037B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:05:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05720; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:05:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419200357.0469ba40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:04:59 -0600 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: Mike Meyer , dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15071.20953.880914.347576@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419144936.00bd5850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419143024.045d2100@localhost> <200104192013.f3JKDfm73628@ns1.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419144936.00bd5850@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:00 PM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Not true. The largest producer of software in the US throgh the early >80s never produced a single product, and they're still around. I sincerely doubt that. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 19:17:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C53F537B422 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:17:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (localhost.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3K2HUZ03787; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:17:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:17:30 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: Dennis Reiter Cc: Subject: Re: FSCKing spammers In-Reply-To: <20010419205855.A96829@reiters.org> Message-ID: <20010419220659.B3329-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Dennis Reiter wrote: > Quoting jack (jack@germanium.xtalwind.net): > > I just got a spam with this at the bottom. > > > > Your email was made available to us publicly through > href='http://www.freebsd.org/./ports/afterstep.html'>this web > > page. > > > > Those of you farther down the list may want to block > > chinainfoland.com [4.23.19.135] > > webb2e.com [4.23.19.156] > > I think I would be complaining to BBN Planet, their upstream. Been there, done that, got the canned, automated response. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is to computing what a McDonalds Certified Food Specialist is to fine cuisine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 19:25:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maila.ptd.net (mail1a.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EBADF37B422 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:25:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 19957 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2001 02:24:15 -0000 Received: from mail1.ha-net.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([207.44.96.65]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpa.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Apr 2001 02:24:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 19890 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2001 02:25:50 -0000 Received: from du207.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.207]) (envelope-sender ) by mail.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Apr 2001 02:25:50 -0000 Message-ID: <3ADF97F6.6128552F@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:59:18 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418003011.045ef3b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418064119.04710720@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418215113.04440410@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 11:06 AM 4/18/2001, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > >It's not at all clear that selling free software is an "unrelated" > >business for the FSF (26 USC 513). > > They're not selling the software; they're selling copies of it. A distinction without a difference for purposes of the present discussion. The create software, and sell (copies of) it. Sounds related to me. > And, yes, it is unrelated business income. The "business" of a charity > is not to sell things but to help those in need. The FSF does not > target its efforts at the needy 26 USC 501(c)(3) is not limited to charitable organizations. > and makes more than half of its > income from the sale of goods. Hence, it is not a legal 501(c)(3). 26 USC 501(b), entitled "Tax on unrelated business income and certain other activities", reads: "An organization exempt from taxation under subsection (a) shall be subject to tax to the extent provided in parts II, III, and VI of this subchapter, but (notwithstanding parts II, III, and VI of this subchapter) shall be considered an organization exempt from income taxes for the purpose of any law which refers to organizations exempt from income taxes." No mention of any limits on income there; the organization just has to pay tax. If you were correct, then many organizations would lose their tax-exempt status. The US Golf Association, just to take one example, would quickly lose its tax-exempt status, because it brings in tons of money from TV. > > Even if it were, the FSF would just > >have to pay the tax on the income; it would not lose its status (26 USC > >511). > > Again, if it derives more than half of its income from unrelated business > activities rather than donations, it loses its status. See IRS Publication > 577. I've skimmed the publication (and it's 557, not 577), and have found nothing to support your claim. The statute clearly does not support you. Provide a more precise citation. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 19:29:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AC39B37B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:29:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 14691 invoked by uid 1000); 20 Apr 2001 02:27:00 -0000 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:27:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Trevor Johnson , David Schwartz , Terry Lambert , Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419194439.0444ecc0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > >Trevor Johnson said on Apr 19, 2001 at 08:15:35: > > > >> Just releasing something under the GPL doesn't give the FSF any say over > >> what happens to it. That only happens if the author--or > >> authors--transfers the copyright to the FSF (something they do encourage). > > Not so. The FSF also misleads programmers by stating that the way to > place the GPL on their code is to state that it is licensed under > Version X "or any future version" of the GPL. > > So, all the FSF has to do is come out with a new version of the GPL and > then make a minor revision to the product, releasing it as the "next" > version. Users will flock to the latest version, and the new GPL will > apply. > > This is a very real threat. Recently, the FSF and Bruce Perens have > been making noises about modifying the GPL to place onerous requirements > on ASP, ISPs, or anyone else who uses GPLed softwre to provide a service. > The idea is to "pry" modifications and additions made by service > providers out of them, thus depriving them of any advantage they might > have in their fields due to in-house software development. > > These guys really don't want ANYONE to make money from software. Apparently, they want to discourage widespread adoption of their software, or just general use of it by anyone who isn't an intoxicated GNUbie prepubescent. /joseph -- "Squint your eyes and look closer; I'm not between you and your ambitions. I am a poster girl with no poster; I am thirty-two flavors and them some." - Ani Difranco, 32 Flavors > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 19:50:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF1F37B424 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:50:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06197; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:47:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419204537.044d1340@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:47:19 -0600 To: Joseph Mallett From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Trevor Johnson , David Schwartz , Terry Lambert , In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419194439.0444ecc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:27 PM 4/19/2001, Joseph Mallett wrote: >Apparently, they want to discourage widespread adoption of their software, >or just general use of it by anyone who isn't an intoxicated GNUbie >prepubescent. Actually, no. They want it to be adopted by USERS -- so as to destroy programmers' markets. And they want it to be adopted by programmers who will, against their own interests, advance the FSF's agenda. They do NOT want commercial programmers to be able to adopt it, hoever. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 19:52:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876FA37B43C for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:52:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06254; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:52:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419204731.00cfb800@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:52:12 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <3ADF97F6.6128552F@mail.ptd.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418003011.045ef3b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418064119.04710720@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418215113.04440410@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:59 PM 4/19/2001, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >> They're not selling the software; they're selling copies of it. > >A distinction without a difference for purposes of the present >discussion. Actually, it's quite important. It's the difference between the thing and the thing contained, as Thurber once said. > The create software, and sell (copies of) it. Sounds >related to me. No, they don't create software. Others create the software. Their main function is propaganda -- as well as hoarding software that others have created. >> And, yes, it is unrelated business income. The "business" of a charity >> is not to sell things but to help those in need. The FSF does not >> target its efforts at the needy > >26 USC 501(c)(3) is not limited to charitable organizations. When the FSF applied for its 501(c)(3), it stated that it was a charity. The IRS considers a charity to be an organization whose efforts are targeted at those in need. I've formed nonprofits and have dealt with the IRS on this. >26 USC 501(b), entitled "Tax on unrelated business income and certain >other activities", reads: > >"An organization exempt from taxation under subsection (a) shall be >subject to tax to the extent provided in parts II, III, and VI of this >subchapter, but (notwithstanding parts II, III, and VI of this >subchapter) shall be considered an organization exempt from income taxes >for the purpose of any law which refers to organizations exempt from >income taxes." > >No mention of any limits on income there; Again, the IRS has rules -- many of which interpret the law -- that you are apparently not aware of. Again, read Publication 557. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 20:16: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F0B837B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 20:16:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06639; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:15:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419211202.044d7e90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:15:32 -0600 To: jack , From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FSCKing spammers In-Reply-To: <20010419195242.S40077-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd never fsck(8) a spammer. I might get an un-rm(8)-able disease. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 21: 8:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maila.ptd.net (mail1a.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 549D237B422 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:08:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 23499 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2001 04:06:48 -0000 Received: from mail1.ha-net.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([207.44.96.65]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpa.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Apr 2001 04:06:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 5040 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2001 04:08:24 -0000 Received: from du45.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.45]) (envelope-sender ) by mail.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Apr 2001 04:08:24 -0000 Message-ID: <3ADFB5EA.E8C7ECC0@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 00:07:06 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418003011.045ef3b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418064119.04710720@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418215113.04440410@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419204731.00cfb800@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 07:59 PM 4/19/2001, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > >> They're not selling the software; they're selling copies of it. > > > >A distinction without a difference for purposes of the present > >discussion. > > Actually, it's quite important. It's the difference between the > thing and the thing contained, as Thurber once said. Read what I wrote: it is not important for the present discussion regarding tax-exempt status. If I had known I was writing a brief, I would have been more precise. > > The create software, and sell (copies of) it. Sounds > >related to me. > > No, they don't create software. Others create the software. Their > main function is propaganda -- as well as hoarding software that > others have created. That's what they said in their IRS filing? > >> And, yes, it is unrelated business income. The "business" of a charity > >> is not to sell things but to help those in need. The FSF does not > >> target its efforts at the needy > > > >26 USC 501(c)(3) is not limited to charitable organizations. > > When the FSF applied for its 501(c)(3), it stated that it was a charity. > The IRS considers a charity to be an organization whose efforts are > targeted at those in need. It's hard to see how the FSF fits the definition of a charity, regardless of where its money comes from. > I've formed nonprofits and have dealt with > the IRS on this. Then you should know better. > >26 USC 501(b), entitled "Tax on unrelated business income and certain > >other activities", reads: > > > >"An organization exempt from taxation under subsection (a) shall be > >subject to tax to the extent provided in parts II, III, and VI of this > >subchapter, but (notwithstanding parts II, III, and VI of this > >subchapter) shall be considered an organization exempt from income taxes > >for the purpose of any law which refers to organizations exempt from > >income taxes." > > > >No mention of any limits on income there; > > Again, the IRS has rules -- many of which interpret the law -- that you > are apparently not aware of. Again, read Publication 557. Again, provide a citation. I've read the statute (which takes precedence over IRS interpretations (or should)); I've looked over 557. I saw absolutely nothing to support your contention. In fact, 26 USC 501(b), quoted above, clearly refutes your position: unrelated business income is taxable, but the organization is still tax-exempt. If you are so sure of yourself, why not bring the matter to the attention of the IRS? Don't they pay bounties? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 21:15:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from borg-cube.com (226-193.adsl2.netlojix.net [207.71.226.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A627B37B422 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:15:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr@borg-cube.com) Received: from borg-cube.com (dburr@borg-cube.com [207.71.226.193]) by borg-cube.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3K4FGH06751 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:15:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr@borg-cube.com) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:15:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Donald Burr of Borg To: Subject: Re: FSCKing spammers In-Reply-To: <20010419220659.B3329-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, jack wrote: j>Today Dennis Reiter wrote: j>> Quoting jack (jack@germanium.xtalwind.net): j>> > I just got a spam with this at the bottom. j>> > Your email was made available to us publicly through > > href='http://www.freebsd.org/./ports/afterstep.html'>this web j>> > page. Perhaps the FreeBSD webmeisters should implement some kind of address munging in the ports web interface? Something similar to what Mailman does for its web interface? It would block out at least the casual harvesters... -- Donald Burr of Borg | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! WWW: http://www.borg-cube.com/ ICQ #16997506 | http://www.freebsd.org/ P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 \----------------------------- Phone: (805)957-9666 Present Day... Present Time! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 21:50:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7275337B422 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3K4oYj12330; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 04:50:34 GMT Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 04:50:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <200104192313.QAA22648@usr01.primenet.com> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:13:21 +0000 (GMT) > From: Terry Lambert > To: Terry Lambert > Cc: Mike Meyer , Brett Glass , > Terry Lambert , Trevor Johnson , > freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Let's see; that's From, To, *and* CC'd by the author... ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 22: 2:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5217237B422 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:02:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08018; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:02:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419225829.04595a80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:02:26 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <3ADFB5EA.E8C7ECC0@mail.ptd.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418003011.045ef3b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418064119.04710720@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418215113.04440410@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419204731.00cfb800@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:07 PM 4/19/2001, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >It's hard to see how the FSF fits the definition of a charity, >regardless of where its money comes from. United Way should be informed about this. The FSF recently got itself onto United Way's distribution list. >> I've formed nonprofits and have dealt with >> the IRS on this. > >Then you should know better. I have spent long hours discussing these issues with IRS agents. They look very much askance at non-profits that want to do the same things as, and therefore compete with, for-profit companies. And also at "charities" that do not target a specific group of the needy. >Again, provide a citation. I've read the statute (which takes >precedence over IRS interpretations (or should)); There's a lot more to it than the statute. There are letter rulings and additional rules. See any good book on forming a non-profit, or search on the Web for the term "unrelated business income." >If you are so sure of yourself, why not bring the matter to the >attention of the IRS? If someone other than myself hadn't already done so, I would. > Don't they pay bounties? No. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 22:30:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD33B37B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:30:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from trevor@jpj.net) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3K5TqU12033; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 01:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 01:29:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Trevor Johnson To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419120602.043f14b0@localhost> Message-ID: <20010419222529.C7035-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I've read the eCOS license carefully. It does not require you to distribute > the source for drivers, etc. which you link into Cygnus' product. The GPL > does. In section 3.7 it says: You may create a Larger Work by combining Covered Code with other code not governed by the terms of this License and distribute the Larger Work as a single product. In such a case, You must make sure the requirements of this License are fulfilled for the Covered Code. which sounds to me like it means exactly that. > >The Red Hat stock for which the company was sold was worth $674 million at > >the time (about $75 million now). > > That's right: the stock was inflated by a stock market mania which has > not yet fully self-corrected. Red Hat was spending its stockholders' > money -- and paid too much for Cygnus. I suppose the "mania" only pertains to Cygnus, not the other companies I mentioned? Generating that kind of excitement about your company is a success. > >What's unethical about it? > > It is unethical to use the GPL on one's software or to promote its > use or proliferation. The reason for this is simple: the GPL is > designed to hurt people who have done nothing wrong. The first > principle of any code of ethics is, and must be, "do no harm." > The GPL, and its malicious intent, clearly violate that principle. If you contracted with Rahul to make changes to gnucash for him, the only people involved would be you and he. If your changed gnucash would harm him, presumably he wouldn't have asked for it. Earlier you seemed to be saying that you would be unable to get paid adequately for the work, so I suppose you feel that you'd be hurting yourself. I gather that you think it would be more advantageous for you if you provided Rahul with a customized version of a BSD-licensed or MIT-licensed accounting package, giving him only the binary. Looking at http://freshmeat.net/browse/787/ I don't see any suitable candidat, so perhaps you'd have to start from scratch. Would you then release the source for your general-purpose accounting program under the BSD or X license, keeping only the Rahul-specific parts secret so you could profit from it? Why not keep the whole of the source to yourself, so you could sell the general-purpose program too? Surely there's that temptation. If you're not willing to give Rahul, under the limitations of the GPL, the code which he wants to pay you to write, why should other programmers provide you--who have done nothing for them--with their code under a much less restrictive license? The benefits to them (that come to mind) are: - they get a chance to practice their programming skills. - their reputation is improved by having their work in the public eye. - they are leaving a legacy. - they feel good about being generous to you. - they can point to your product and say proudly, "I wrote that." - can point to you and say, "I helped him make a profit." - have your blessing. If Rahul continues to use gnucash, the gnucash authors: - have a chance to practice their programming skills. - improve their reputations by having their work in the public eye. - are leaving a legacy. - feel good about being generous to Rahul. - can point to gnucash and say proudly, "I wrote that." - can point to Rahul and say, "I helped him make a profit." - receive the blessing of Saint Stallman. From their point of view, it seems to be seven of one and 0.583 dozen of the other. > >If the GPL didn't exist, people would choose, or make up, > >something else that likely would not suit you either. > > They'd likely use the MIT X license or BSD license. More likely, they'd choose a license more similar to the GPL, one which discourages or forbids binary-only distribution of derived works, such as the MPL, QPL, Artistic License, Nethack General Public License, Ricoh Source Code Public License, or SISSL. Of course, my proposition was silly. Neither the GPL nor these other licenses is going to disappear. -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 19 23:15:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAD1637B423 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:15:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from trevor@jpj.net) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3K6FO513267; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 02:15:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 02:15:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Trevor Johnson To: David Schwartz Cc: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , Subject: RE: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010420013541.P7035-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Except that usually the "original author" can't do that, > > > because he's not > > > the *sole* author. The GPL does *not* reserve to the original author > > > the > > > right to license derived works under alternate terms. It > > > reserves that right > > > solely to the FSF. > > > Just releasing something under the GPL doesn't give the FSF any say over > > what happens to it. That only happens if the author--or > > authors--transfers the copyright to the FSF (something they do > > encourage). > > -- > > Trevor Johnson > > I quote from the GPL: > > If the Program specifies a version number of this License which applies to > it and "any later version", you have the option of following the terms and > conditions either of that version or of any later version published by the > Free Software Foundation. If the Program does not specify a version number > of this License, you may choose any version ever published by the Free > Software Foundation. > > Note that the GPL *could* very easily have said "or a newer license issued > by the program's original author", and it could have left a slot for the > author to put his name, but it doesn't. The FSP reserves only to itself the > right to change the licensing terms once so many authors get involved that > it's impractical to get them all to agree. This is another right which an author, optionally, can grant to the FSF, and clearly they're encouraging authors to do so. I acknowledge that the wording they chose is misleading. > This became a real issue on at least one occasion that I'm aware of. Linus > Torvalds wanted to allow binary-only distributions of Linux kernel modules, > but due to the structure of the GPL, he lacks the authority to grant that > permission. So whether binary-only distributions of Linux kernel modules are > legal is an open question. Had Mr. Torvalds chosen (or written) a license that could be changed without the agreement of the other contributors, it would surely have a chilling effect on potential contributors who didn't fully trust him, or whoever could change the license. Perhaps that's why he tacked onto the Linux COPYING file the wording: Also note that the only valid version of the GPL as far as the kernel is concerned is _this_ license (ie v2), unless explicitly otherwise stated. -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 0:34:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D31D637B43C for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 00:34:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 79824 invoked by uid 100); 20 Apr 2001 07:34:11 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.58995.502328.328701@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 02:34:11 -0500 To: Terry Lambert Cc: dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <200104192252.PAA22484@usr01.primenet.com> References: <15071.19051.343972.458299@guru.mired.org> <200104192252.PAA22484@usr01.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > > > > > Not true. Commercial software does not destroy markets or reduce > > > > > programmers to the status of wage slave. > > > > Try contracting for MicroSoft. > > > I'm a programmer. I get paid for my work. And by no means can it be > > > considered a slave wage. > > I'd say the same thing myself. And, contrary to the nonsense that > > Brett was spouting, it doesn't matter whether I'm working on GPL'ed > > softare or not. > Let's cut the BS: I want to be able to build a piece of software, > and sell the rights to use it, for as long as the market will pay > for those rights. [...] > I want to be paid the fair market value of my labor. The value of the results of your labor and the value of your labor two different things. They are connected, as whoever pays for your labor needs to recoup that cost from the results. As we just finished discussing, there are a number of models to do that that don't require sale of the software. We haven't even exhausted the list yet. > > > > You build capital as a programmer under conditions D, E and F the > > > > exact same way you do in all those other fields, working under those > > > > conditions. > > > Can I pay my mortgage with that capital? > > Since people working in other fields seem to manage it, you ought to > > be able to. > As long as there's not some moron in that field trying to socialize > the results of my labor, I probably could. Unions have been socializing the market value of labor for as long as they've been around. That hasn't stopped people from paying the mortgage with their savings. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 0:38:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6BCBB37B42C for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 00:38:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 80045 invoked by uid 100); 20 Apr 2001 07:38:22 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.59246.855623.766901@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 02:38:22 -0500 To: Terry Lambert Cc: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <200104192311.QAA22635@usr01.primenet.com> References: <15071.19757.648512.704094@guru.mired.org> <200104192311.QAA22635@usr01.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > > That only applies to companies that can't see beyond the "product" > > model for revenue streams. > > Company A pays R&D costs out of pocket for one year to develop a > product P, which it releases under GPL. > > Total developement costs are $1,000,000,000. > > The total market for product P is $10,000,000,000. Company A can't see byond the "product" model for revenue streams from software. > Under no circumstances can the per unit revenue for company A > _ever_ drop below $9.90 per unit, since it would then be > impossible to recover R&D costs, and then it's off to bankruptcy > court for company A. Yup. Their lack of vision is going to drive them bankrupt. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 0:49:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3465837B423 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 00:49:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 80371 invoked by uid 100); 20 Apr 2001 07:49:12 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.59896.930255.584385@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 02:49:12 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Terry Lambert , trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419200040.04595390@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419144844.00bd9440@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419142203.046206d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> <200104191845.LAA17455@usr09.primenet.com> <15070.54826.847491.916792@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419200040.04595390@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 02:58 PM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > Both are relevant. Many of those businesses are, literally, "Mom and > Pop" businesses, most or all of whose employees are also owners. Not in terms of the present discussion. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 0:53:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 101F637B422 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 00:53:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 80529 invoked by uid 100); 20 Apr 2001 07:53:29 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.60153.512245.200296@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 02:53:29 -0500 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419200357.0469ba40@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419144936.00bd5850@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419143024.045d2100@localhost> <200104192013.f3JKDfm73628@ns1.unixathome.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419140150.045176b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419200357.0469ba40@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 03:00 PM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Not true. The largest producer of software in the US through the early > >80s never produced a single product, and they're still around. > I sincerely doubt that. Feel free to doubt facts if they don't agree with your world view. They're still true. I said through the early 80s because that was when I first became interested in how much not being able to copyright it would reduce the production of software (ans: about as much as not being able to copyright it would reduce the design of non-digital typefaces). The only real change in software production since then is that Gates has made a very visible fortune selling crappy software. So anyone who writes crappy software think they deserve the same, and they whine about it when they realize there's not much market left between crappy software from Gates and free software from other sources. So I wouldn't be surprised if the same statement still held true - for the same producer, even. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 1:25: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B09337B422 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 01:24:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from trevor@jpj.net) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3K8Oq018037; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 04:24:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 04:24:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Trevor Johnson To: David Schwartz Cc: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , Subject: RE: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010420031221.H7035-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Had Mr. Torvalds chosen (or written) a license that could be changed > > without the agreement of the other contributors, it would surely have a > > chilling effect on potential contributors who didn't fully trust him, or > > whoever could change the license. Perhaps that's why he tacked onto the > > Linux COPYING file the wording: > > > > Also note that the only valid version of the GPL as far as the kernel > > is concerned is _this_ license (ie v2), unless explicitly otherwise > > stated. > > Maybe you're not reading what I'm writing. Maybe I'm not being cleaer. > Those first two paragraphs in the 'COPYING' file have *NO* legal import. The one I quoted seems to simply clarify what was already implicit. > Linus had no right to unilaterally modify the licensing agreement under > which Linux was distributed after he had accepted other people's > contributions under the original license. That's probably why he didn't modify it. > If Linux had this right, so did > any other contributor to the Linux kernel, which would make the GPL > identical to the BSD license! No, the restrictions in the BSD license are different from those in the GPL, and they must not be removed from it without the author's (authors') permission. The BSD PPP code in Linux, for instance, remains under its original license. > So, yes, Linus may have added those two pagagraphs to the licensing file, > but they have no more legal import than if they had been added by any other > person who contributed to the Linux kernel and distributed copies of the > modified version. Certainly, no more and no less. > Again, Linus had no right to modify the license agreement under which Linux > was distributed, that right was reserved for the FSF alone. Saying it > doesn't make it so. The FSF (alone) has the right to publish new versions of the GPL. It does not have the right to change the one that Linux is under, because the authors of Linux, as far as I see from a quick look, did not grant it to the FSF. What Mr. Torvalds added to the COPYING file emphasises that fact. Do you perhaps believe--or think that I believe--that by simply putting his own words into the same file as the GPL, he has changed it? It looks to me as though he just added his notes to the same file for his own convenience, to avoid putting them into every little file in his project. I don't know whether that takes away their legal force. > Please read the paragraph I wrote that you are responding to one more time. > It responds to your response. Then this would be my response to your response to my response--but hey, who's counting? :) -- Trevor Johnson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 1:44:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 04E2C37B42C for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 01:44:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 82150 invoked by uid 100); 20 Apr 2001 08:44:16 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15071.63200.662238.163174@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 03:44:16 -0500 To: Terry Lambert Cc: trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <200104192246.PAA22437@usr01.primenet.com> References: <15071.14666.204581.853258@guru.mired.org> <200104192246.PAA22437@usr01.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > > > You clearly do not understand that some businesses can switch > > > from a "service" to a "product" business model. > > You can say that after I pointed out that there were alternative > > business models? > Yes. I can categorically state that your proposed revenue > models require input proportional to the revenue they > generate, whereas proprietary software models have revenue > which is based on market valuation, not on effort input, > and that the difference between those two values is the > amount of money you can show as profit for shareholders, > as well as applying to R&D costs. That adjective "effort" hides a multitude of sins. All the models have a gross profit based on market valuation. In the proprietary software model, the effort input is part of the fixed costs, not the per-unit costs. GPL'd software has the restriction that the per-unit price can't be raised to arbitrary multiples of the per-unit cost, which makes it resemble most other products. > > If you start a research project aimed at modifying a GPL'ed > > program, the "product" model clearly isn't available. > You are confusing "R" with "D". The model is vailable, but is > contingent on a business plan. Business plans can change. > > Since the model is, as you say, unavailable, clearly, GPL'ed > code is not desirable to use when starting a business where > you don't want to be locked into a single revenue model or > exit strategy. I can't argue that there are times when GPL'ed code isn't desirable. > > Again - what kind of idiot would invest 3 years without a > > plan to pay for it? > A researcher, who has only the materials available at hand, > including open source software, from which to build upon to > do his research. In that case, the correct person to blame if it turns out they can't pay for the result is themselves. > > > > selling the ability to run the program (B), > > > > > > Technically, this constitutes a limited transfer of ownership; > > > under the GPL, I can demand the source code, so long as I have > > > a paid subscription. > > > > I think we need to clarify which version of the GPL we're talking > > about. The most recent one I have handy (Version 2) says at the top of > > paragraph 2: > > > > Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not > > covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of > > running the Program is not restricted, [...] > > > > That seems to pretty clearly exempt this case. If I transferred the > > program to their computer so they could run it, it wouldn't be - but > > that's not what's happening here. > You are mistaken. If it is outside of the scope of the license, > then rights are not granted by the license, and therefore no rights > exist. Fair enough. > As far as running the program, the question is whether, when the > program is run on the web server on behalf of a user, whether it > is you running the program, or whether it is the user running the > program using your equipment. I'd be interested to know why those two are different cases. > I think you need to read some of RMS' recent writing on the > subject of Application Service Providers, since it's clear that > such an arrangement would be against the spirit of the GPL. > If you want to argue my interpretation, take it up with IBM's > legal department, since it is the lawyers, not me, who arrived > at this interpretation. It's clear from RMSs statements that he wants the GPL to cover ASPs. That he wants it to is a pretty good indication that it doesn't. If I were IBMs lawyers and knew that he wanted that, I'd recommend against a business plan that depended on it not covering that case as well, as that minimizes the risk of being shown to be wrong. > > > > or simply saving staff time (C). > > > My employee can demand the source code, and since no additional > > > restrictions are permitted, their non-disclosure agreement with > > > my company is not binding on them. > > That's certainly true, but has nothing to do with this model for > > funding the development. The staff timed saved is the same whether > > they can demand and distribute the source code or not. It'd be rather > > nasty if you were planning on funding the development by selling the > > results as a product, but that wasn't the plan described. > Fine. If you could point me toward the GNU equivalent of Microsoft > Office, I'd be happy to use it. It should be able to read and > write all Microsoft file formats, since my staff must communicate > with real world customers in order for me to make money. If you've been that badly infected by the microsoft virus, feel free to extend the OpenOffice.org software until it meets your requirements. Personally, I have better uses for my time. > > > D) Being a paid support flunky for the software. > > > > > > E) Being a wage-slave for improvements to the software. > > > > > > F) Being paid a small amount for the initial developement > > > as a work for hire for the benefit of the GPL, such > > > that your wages need to be arbitrarily low, since your > > > wages can not be amortized. > > > > > > The GPL thus promotes amateurs in place of trained engineers, > > > unless you are willing to work until you die, and never be > > > able to retire as a result of rewards for your efforts. > > First, this means the GPL has the same effect as commercial software. > No. I can own a commercial software company, even if it's just > me and some guy named "Bob". Microsoft is not the only commercial > software company. You can own a GPL software company even if it's just you and some guy named Bob. I don't see a difference. > > Since many of them do manage to retire as a result of the rewards > > of their efforts, I'd say your final conclusion is false. > "Many" != "vast majority". Right - not everyone working under those conditions manage to retire etc. Most startups fail, so their owners don't get to retire that way either. Your conclusion is still false. > Let us say "retire at a monetary standard of living equal to or > in excess of the working standard of living". > > That dumps out all the people with union pensions who you care to > point to, etc.. No, it doesn't, it just restricts it to the ones who've done the financial prepwork so they can retire under those conditions. That restriction eliminates anyone who's trying to live on a union pension, but it certainly doesn't eliminate anyone with a union pension. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 2:44:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DAE137B422 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 02:44:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from trevor@jpj.net) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3K9iMT20568; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 05:44:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 05:44:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Trevor Johnson To: David Schwartz Cc: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , Subject: RE: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010420050832.Q7035-100000@blues.jpj.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The FSF (alone) has the right to publish new versions of the GPL. It > > does > > not have the right to change the one that Linux is under, because the > > authors of Linux, as far as I see from a quick look, did not grant it to > > the FSF. > > But the authors of Linux did give that right to the FSF. Linus attempted to > unilaterally take it away by changing the license under which Linux was > developed. He didn't change the license. > That unilateral license modification has no legal import because > Linus had no right to change the license terms under which derived works > from other authors are distributed. > > And Linux _certainly_ doesn't have the right to grant to others the right > to distribute binary-only works derived from code contributed by others > under the terms of the GPL. No one said he could. > > What Mr. Torvalds added to the COPYING file emphasises that > > fact. > > What Mr. Torvalds added to the COPYING file is ambigous. Sometimes it seems > like he's simply stating his opinion of the licensing terms of Linux, > sometimes it seems like he's setting them. My point is that he has no right > to do either because he ceded that right when he accepted contributions from > others under the unmodified GPL, which he later regretted. > Mr. Torvalds' opinion of the licensing terms are just his opinion. They > have no special legal weight. A written offer, even a supermarket coupon, has legal weight. He's made an offer and "signed" it electronically. In some places, that would be binding. > > Do you perhaps believe--or think that I believe--that by simply > > putting his own words into the same file as the GPL, he has changed it? > > Nope, that's the point. Those words have no legal import. Because Linus > originally GPL'd Linux, it's not clear whether his intention to permit > binary-only kernel modules has legal force. The words he added to the file have nothing to do with binary-only kernel modules. The ones I didn't mention before say: NOTE! This copyright does *not* cover user programs that use kernel services by normal system calls - this is merely considered normal use of the kernel, and does *not* fall under the heading of "derived work". Also note that the GPL below is copyrighted by the Free Software Foundation, but the instance of code that it refers to (the Linux kernel) is copyrighted by me and others who actually wrote it. > > It looks to me as though he just added his notes to the same file for his > > own convenience, to avoid putting them into every little file in his > > project. I don't know whether that takes away their legal force. > > What legal force? If they're his opinion of the license, they have no legal > force. If they're his attempt to set the licensing terms, he has no right to > do so since *he* added those terms to a work of which he was *not* the sole > author. The words I quoted from him just say that GPL version 2--the one under which (I assume) he accepted the contributions--is the only one that applies. It just makes explicit what was already implied. -- Trevor Johnson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 5:23:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freenix.no (atreides.freenix.no [217.68.117.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E37437B43C for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 05:23:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from morten@freenix.no) Received: (from morten@localhost) by freenix.no (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f3KCNE425153 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:23:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from morten) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:23:14 +0200 From: "Morten A . Middelthon" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Wind River/BSDi stuff again Message-ID: <20010420142314.B22297@freenix.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE X-Warning: So cunning you could brush your teeth with it. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't know if this has already been mentioned in any of the previous threads on -advocacy or -chat, so please excuse me if that's the case. Anyway, just found out that BSDi (or the part which will be called iXsystems, iirc) will close down it's operations in Europe. So far I've bought 6 1U boxes preloaded with FreeBSD from the Stockholm-office for my company, and we are very satisfied with them. But, if I want to contintue using iXtreme servers I'd have to order them directly from USA, and that's not a practical alternative, imho. Afaik BSDi was only vendor located in Scandinavia which sold FreeBSD-servers, so I think it's very sad to see them shut down like this. -- Morten A. Middelthon Freenix Norge http://www.freenix.no/ -- "First learn computer science and all the theory. Next develop a programming style. Then forget all that and just hack." -- George Carrette To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 7:44: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adakro.osowa.gda.osk.pl (adakro.osowa.gda.osk.pl [212.244.103.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C2037B43F for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 07:43:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kontakt@poznajkraj.pl) Received: from localhost.localdomain (IDENT:root@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by adakro.osowa.gda.osk.pl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA07249 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:44:30 -0400 Message-Id: <200104202044.QAA07249@adakro.osowa.gda.osk.pl> Subject: Ogolnopolski Wortal Turystyczny Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Mime-version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "www.poznajkraj.pl" Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:44 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OGÓLNOPOLSKI WORTAL KRAJOZNAWCZY HTTP://POZNAJKRAJ.PL TWÓJ PRZEWODNIK PO POLSCE Poznajkraj.pl najdynamiczniej rozwijający się w Polsce profesjonalny wortal, prezentujący kompleksową bazę informacji o wypoczynku, rozrywce i kulturze w naszym kraju. Poznajkraj.pl ułatwi Państwu planowanie podróży po Polsce, przedstawiając szeroką gamę informacji o regionach, w które chcieliby się Państwo wybrać. Poznajkraj.pl pomoże Państwu w wyborze, gdzie znaleźć odpowiednią kwaterę, gdzie najlepiej zjeść, gdzie najprzyjemniej spędzić wolny czas. Poznajkraj.pl - piszą dla nas najznakomitsi autorzy przewodników. Poznajkraj.pl - już ponad 400 artykułów z zakresu geografii, historii, etnografii, architektury, przyrodoznawstwa i wielu innych dziedzin; tworzą one swoisty multimedialny przewodnik po Polsce, który pozwoli na lepsze poznanie naszego kraju. Poznajkraj.pl - prognoza pogody, również w systemie WAP. Poznajkraj.pl - czat, galeria sztuki, księgarnia Już wkrótce wortal będzie posiadał angielską, niemiecką i rosyjską wersje językową. ZAPRASZAMY! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 8:25:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8786637B424 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:25:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13530; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:24:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420092311.047044c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:24:23 -0600 To: "www.poznajkraj.pl" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Ogolnopolski Wortal Turystyczny In-Reply-To: <200104202044.QAA07249@adakro.osowa.gda.osk.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You don'tsk sayski? Kindly quit spamming. --Brett At 02:44 PM 4/20/2001, www.poznajkraj.pl wrote: >OGÓLNOPOLSKI WORTAL KRAJOZNAWCZY HTTP://POZNAJKRAJ.PL >TWÓJ PRZEWODNIK PO POLSCE ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 8:25:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF52737B43F; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:25:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from steve@havk.org) Received: from bsd.havk.org (user-24-214-92-252.knology.net [24.214.92.252]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3KFPj500211; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:25:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: by bsd.havk.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5E3DF1A7D8; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:25:43 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:25:43 -0500 From: Steve Price To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: hardware@freebsd.org Subject: PC104 and FreeBSD Message-ID: <20010420102543.G46608@bsd.havk.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-RC i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi All, I have an application that I've developed for a customer that has been deployed on FreeBSD. The customer now wants to deploy this application using a PC104 form factor board so that they can shove it inside the transmitter controller case. The engineer has found several instances claiming people have great success with PC104 and Linux but very few positive responses regarding FreeBSD. If anyone has any experience in the PC104 arena and has a success story wrt to FreeBSD please let me know. I want to be armed to the gills when I reply to him. Thanks. -steve PS: Note I've sent this chat and hardware please followup to chat or me directly as I'm not sure if hardware is entirely appropriate for this discussion. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 8:29:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C240337B43C for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:28:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 27257 invoked by uid 1000); 20 Apr 2001 15:27:44 -0000 Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:27:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Steve Price Cc: Subject: Re: PC104 and FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20010420102543.G46608@bsd.havk.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Steve Price wrote: > Hi All, > > I have an application that I've developed for a customer that > has been deployed on FreeBSD. The customer now wants to deploy > this application using a PC104 form factor board so that they > can shove it inside the transmitter controller case. The > engineer has found several instances claiming people have great > success with PC104 and Linux but very few positive responses > regarding FreeBSD. > > If anyone has any experience in the PC104 arena and has a > success story wrt to FreeBSD please let me know. I want to be > armed to the gills when I reply to him. > > Thanks. > > -steve > > PS: Note I've sent this chat and hardware please followup to > chat or me directly as I'm not sure if hardware is entirely > appropriate for this discussion. I've done a _little_ prototyping work with PC104's with a friend of mine... The best advice I can give is be fully aware of what chipsets, etc., are being used beforehand, and select one whose hardware is _most_ likely to be compatible. /joseph -- xMach Operating System: www.xMach.org [jmallett on #xMach @ irc.openprojects.net | xMach Core Team] "Squint your eyes and look closer; I'm not between you and your ambitions. I am a poster girl with no poster; I am thirty-two flavors and them some." - Ani Difranco, 32 Flavors To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 8:35:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61DCE37B42C for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:35:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from steve@havk.org) Received: from bsd.havk.org (user-24-214-92-252.knology.net [24.214.92.252]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3KFZ1531424; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:35:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: by bsd.havk.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2B2A01A7D8; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:35:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:35:00 -0500 From: Steve Price To: Joseph Mallett Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PC104 and FreeBSD Message-ID: <20010420103500.A39532@bsd.havk.org> References: <20010420102543.G46608@bsd.havk.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jmallett@newgold.net on Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 11:27:44AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-RC i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 11:27:44AM -0400, Joseph Mallett wrote: > I've done a _little_ prototyping work with PC104's with a friend of > mine... The best advice I can give is be fully aware of what chipsets, > etc., are being used beforehand, and select one whose hardware is _most_ > likely to be compatible. Thanks for the quick reply, Joseph. I'll make sure I take these things into consideration. BTW, I should have sent this the first time, but this is the specific board they want to use. The only thing this doesn't have that we'll need is a sound card/chip. http://www.emjembedded.com/products/single/specmops686plus.html -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 8:51:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C55B37B423; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:51:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13947; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:51:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420095032.04704c60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:51:30 -0600 To: Steve Price , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PC104 and FreeBSD Cc: hardware@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010420102543.G46608@bsd.havk.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org PC104 is just an ISA-like bus. There's no reason whatsoever why a PC104 system should not work with FreeBSD. I've put FreeBSD and OpenBSD on set-top boxes with PC104 network cards inside; it's worked fine. --Brett At 09:25 AM 4/20/2001, Steve Price wrote: >Hi All, > >I have an application that I've developed for a customer that >has been deployed on FreeBSD. The customer now wants to deploy >this application using a PC104 form factor board so that they >can shove it inside the transmitter controller case. The >engineer has found several instances claiming people have great >success with PC104 and Linux but very few positive responses >regarding FreeBSD. > >If anyone has any experience in the PC104 arena and has a >success story wrt to FreeBSD please let me know. I want to be >armed to the gills when I reply to him. > >Thanks. > >-steve > >PS: Note I've sent this chat and hardware please followup to > chat or me directly as I'm not sure if hardware is entirely > appropriate for this discussion. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 8:59:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64DEB37B43F for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:59:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from steve@havk.org) Received: from bsd.havk.org (user-24-214-92-252.knology.net [24.214.92.252]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3KFxX525064; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:59:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: by bsd.havk.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8B8E61A7DA; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:59:31 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:59:31 -0500 From: Steve Price To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC104 and FreeBSD Message-ID: <20010420105931.C39532@bsd.havk.org> References: <20010420102543.G46608@bsd.havk.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010420095032.04704c60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420095032.04704c60@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 09:51:30AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-RC i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 09:51:30AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > PC104 is just an ISA-like bus. There's no reason whatsoever > why a PC104 system should not work with FreeBSD. I've put > FreeBSD and OpenBSD on set-top boxes with PC104 network > cards inside; it's worked fine. I'm finding that apparently the biggest problem is the DiskOnChip used. I'm pretty Warner Losh (at least I'm pretty sure that's who did the work) has made great strides in this area lately. I'm with you on it should just work. But I've found more people saying that it doesn't work with FreeBSD than I have that said it would and had actually done it. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 9:19:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDBC837B422 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:19:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14241; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:19:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420101737.04708a60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:19:25 -0600 To: Steve Price From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PC104 and FreeBSD Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010420105931.C39532@bsd.havk.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420095032.04704c60@localhost> <20010420102543.G46608@bsd.havk.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010420095032.04704c60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:59 AM 4/20/2001, Steve Price wrote: >I'm finding that apparently the biggest problem is the >DiskOnChip used. I'm pretty Warner Losh (at least I'm >pretty sure that's who did the work) has made great >strides in this area lately. The DiskOnChip isn't a PC104 component; it's used in many embedded systems. Myself, I prefer ATA-compatible CompactFlash, which runs out of the box with FreeBSD's ATA/IDE drivers. It's not only cheaper per megabyte but multiple-sourced. This is important in embedded work. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 9:26:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B09337B424 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:26:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from steve@havk.org) Received: from bsd.havk.org (user-24-214-92-252.knology.net [24.214.92.252]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3KGQI515305; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:26:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: by bsd.havk.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A0EDA1A7DA; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:26:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:26:16 -0500 From: Steve Price To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PC104 and FreeBSD Message-ID: <20010420112616.L39532@bsd.havk.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420095032.04704c60@localhost> <20010420102543.G46608@bsd.havk.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010420095032.04704c60@localhost> <20010420105931.C39532@bsd.havk.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010420101737.04708a60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420101737.04708a60@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 10:19:25AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-RC i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 10:19:25AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > The DiskOnChip isn't a PC104 component; it's used in > many embedded systems. I realize that. I was merely stating that the negative reports I've seen seem to be related to the failure to get some DiskOnChip controller to work. > Myself, I prefer ATA-compatible CompactFlash, which runs > out of the box with FreeBSD's ATA/IDE drivers. It's not > only cheaper per megabyte but multiple-sourced. This > is important in embedded work. Thanks I'll add that tidbit of information to the hat full of tricks I'm gathering. Cheaper is definitely better for this project. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 13:33:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-27.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BEBA37B42C for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:33:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1008F66B1C; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:33:19 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: "Morten A . Middelthon" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wind River/BSDi stuff again Message-ID: <20010420133319.A94082@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010420142314.B22297@freenix.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KsGdsel6WgEHnImy" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010420142314.B22297@freenix.no>; from morten@freenix.no on Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:23:14PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --KsGdsel6WgEHnImy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:23:14PM +0200, Morten A . Middelthon wrote: >=20 > I don't know if this has already been mentioned in any of the previous th= reads > on -advocacy or -chat, so please excuse me if that's the case. >=20 > Anyway, just found out that BSDi (or the part which will be called iXsyst= ems, > iirc) will close down it's operations in Europe. So far I've bought 6 1U = boxes > preloaded with FreeBSD from the Stockholm-office for my company, and we a= re > very satisfied with them. But, if I want to contintue using iXtreme serve= rs > I'd have to order them directly from USA, and that's not a practical > alternative, imho. Afaik BSDi was only vendor located in Scandinavia which > sold FreeBSD-servers, so I think it's very sad to see them shut down like > this. You probably should be voicing this concern to iXsystems, for what little good it may do. Kris --KsGdsel6WgEHnImy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE64J0PWry0BWjoQKURArnhAJ9Aexbn5j/Q+24HYVVZBH8Y2LmSPACgyXFP GcyB0zWfaet3+O1z+U4krU0= =8BMa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --KsGdsel6WgEHnImy-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 17: 3:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5000A37B424 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:03:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA56908; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:03:37 -0700 Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpddki67a; Fri Apr 20 17:03:29 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA14528; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:04:16 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104210004.RAA14528@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 00:03:58 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419200357.0469ba40@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Apr 19, 2001 08:04:59 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 03:00 PM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >Not true. The largest producer of software in the US throgh the early > >80s never produced a single product, and they're still around. > > I sincerely doubt that. He is attemptiong to humporously refer to the U.S. Government. I see no value in software that is not productized. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 17: 7:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA35137B42C for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:07:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA28974; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:00:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA3laqH4; Fri Apr 20 16:59:57 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA14599; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:08:01 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104210008.RAA14599@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux To: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 00:07:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15071.59246.855623.766901@guru.mired.org> from "Mike Meyer" at Apr 20, 2001 02:38:22 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > That only applies to companies that can't see beyond the "product" > > > model for revenue streams. > > > > Company A pays R&D costs out of pocket for one year to develop a > > product P, which it releases under GPL. > > > > Total developement costs are $1,000,000,000. > > > > The total market for product P is $10,000,000,000. > > Company A can't see byond the "product" model for revenue streams from > software. > > > Under no circumstances can the per unit revenue for company A > > _ever_ drop below $9.90 per unit, since it would then be > > impossible to recover R&D costs, and then it's off to bankruptcy > > court for company A. > > Yup. Their lack of vision is going to drive them bankrupt. How would a "visionary company" fund R&D, IYHO? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 17:22:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7036137B618 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:22:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from galt@inconnu.isu.edu) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18810; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:22:22 -0600 Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:22:13 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt To: Kris Kirby Cc: Terry Lambert , Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Copies-to: galt@inconnu.isu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 All your headers are belong to Terry :) On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Kris Kirby wrote: >On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:13:21 +0000 (GMT) >> From: Terry Lambert >> To: Terry Lambert >> Cc: Mike Meyer , Brett Glass , >> Terry Lambert , Trevor Johnson , >> freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >> Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux > >Let's see; that's From, To, *and* CC'd by the author... > >----- >Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > | >------------------------------------------------------- >"Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > - -- Sacred cows make the best burgers Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who!!! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBOuDSvB9mehuYcOjMEQLE6QCfWvSwDBXWqwhQyWL9iq9OvOlqA2oAoPLF IbQSG7dPWRRqoSj5GddtJ0pb =CbEW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 17:24:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3633D37B423 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:24:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA112302; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:24:46 -0700 Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpddHqAia; Fri Apr 20 17:24:39 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA14856; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:25:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104210025.RAA14856@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux To: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 00:25:22 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15071.63200.662238.163174@guru.mired.org> from "Mike Meyer" at Apr 20, 2001 03:44:16 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > You clearly do not understand that some businesses can switch > > > > from a "service" to a "product" business model. > > > You can say that after I pointed out that there were alternative > > > business models? > > Yes. I can categorically state that your proposed revenue > > models require input proportional to the revenue they > > generate, whereas proprietary software models have revenue > > which is based on market valuation, not on effort input, > > and that the difference between those two values is the > > amount of money you can show as profit for shareholders, > > as well as applying to R&D costs. > > That adjective "effort" hides a multitude of sins. All the models have > a gross profit based on market valuation. In the proprietary software > model, the effort input is part of the fixed costs, not the per-unit > costs. GPL'd software has the restriction that the per-unit price > can't be raised to arbitrary multiples of the per-unit cost, which > makes it resemble most other products. I don't understand your use of the word "sin" here. Patent and copyright protection also permits the per-unit price to be raised to arbitrary multiples of the per-unit cost. I think the thing you are apparently refusing to factor in is that the labor itself is not based on the per-unit *value*. What this means is that a J.D. Salinger may have only 6 good Novels in him to be written in his lifetime. The money he makes must therefore be 1/6th of the money he requires as his total lifetime income, in order to encourage him to write them. Society would be a poorer place without his efforts. The cost is irrelevent: there is a fixed supply of the product. > > > If you start a research project aimed at modifying a GPL'ed > > > program, the "product" model clearly isn't available. > > You are confusing "R" with "D". The model is vailable, but is > > contingent on a business plan. Business plans can change. > > > > Since the model is, as you say, unavailable, clearly, GPL'ed > > code is not desirable to use when starting a business where > > you don't want to be locked into a single revenue model or > > exit strategy. > > I can't argue that there are times when GPL'ed code isn't desirable. Thank you. > > > Again - what kind of idiot would invest 3 years without a > > > plan to pay for it? > > A researcher, who has only the materials available at hand, > > including open source software, from which to build upon to > > do his research. > > In that case, the correct person to blame if it turns out they can't > pay for the result is themselves. This assumes that the person paying for the research is the researcher making the decision on the code base. The researcher makes a decision based on information available at the time the decision must be made. It is _completely unreasonable_ to expect a researcher to know all the details of the business operation, in the same way that it is _completely unreasonable_ to expect a business person to know all the details of the research operation. You are totally ignoring the concept of seperation of roles. A single person simply _can not_ know everything. > > As far as running the program, the question is whether, when the > > program is run on the web server on behalf of a user, whether it > > is you running the program, or whether it is the user running the > > program using your equipment. > > I'd be interested to know why those two are different cases. Because in one case, I effectively give you the program and say "here, run this"; in the other, I keep the program and say "here, let me run this for you so that you may interact with it". > > I think you need to read some of RMS' recent writing on the > > subject of Application Service Providers, since it's clear that > > such an arrangement would be against the spirit of the GPL. > > If you want to argue my interpretation, take it up with IBM's > > legal department, since it is the lawyers, not me, who arrived > > at this interpretation. > > It's clear from RMSs statements that he wants the GPL to cover > ASPs. That he wants it to is a pretty good indication that it > doesn't. If I were IBMs lawyers and knew that he wanted that, I'd > recommend against a business plan that depended on it not covering > that case as well, as that minimizes the risk of being shown to be > wrong. The problem with that is the "or later version" clause in the license. RMS can come out with a version 3.0 of the license which changes the terms out from under you. > > Fine. If you could point me toward the GNU equivalent of Microsoft > > Office, I'd be happy to use it. It should be able to read and > > write all Microsoft file formats, since my staff must communicate > > with real world customers in order for me to make money. > > If you've been that badly infected by the microsoft virus, feel free > to extend the OpenOffice.org software until it meets your > requirements. > > Personally, I have better uses for my time. So do I. So I weigh the costs of extending OpenOffice (really, writing the thing, since it's so inferior to the Microsoft equivalents), and I find that it costs me significantly less to just buy the Microsoft software instead. It has nothing to do with "the microsoft virus", as you call it: it has to do with business not operating in a vacuum. The vast majority of the business software space is Microsoft. If software doesn't interoperate, then it's just wasted space on the hard drive. > > > > D) Being a paid support flunky for the software. > > > > > > > > E) Being a wage-slave for improvements to the software. > > > > > > > > F) Being paid a small amount for the initial developement > > > > as a work for hire for the benefit of the GPL, such > > > > that your wages need to be arbitrarily low, since your > > > > wages can not be amortized. > > > > > > > > The GPL thus promotes amateurs in place of trained engineers, > > > > unless you are willing to work until you die, and never be > > > > able to retire as a result of rewards for your efforts. > > > First, this means the GPL has the same effect as commercial software. > > No. I can own a commercial software company, even if it's just > > me and some guy named "Bob". Microsoft is not the only commercial > > software company. > > You can own a GPL software company even if it's just you and some guy > named Bob. I don't see a difference. I don't own anything. Or if I do own something, it's not a software company. A software company is a company which sells software. If I have to give away my source code for free any time someone asks for it, I may be a consultant or some other form of wage-slave, and I may own a flunky employment agency, or I might own a software _distribution_ company, but I sure as heck am not the owner of a software company. > > > Since many of them do manage to retire as a result of the rewards > > > of their efforts, I'd say your final conclusion is false. > > "Many" != "vast majority". > > Right - not everyone working under those conditions manage to retire > etc. Most startups fail, so their owners don't get to retire that way > either. Your conclusion is still false. How so? My conclusion was that there was an exception to your conclusion, and therefore your conclusion was false. How is it that your conclusion is still right, even after I have demonstrated a case where it isn't? > > Let us say "retire at a monetary standard of living equal to or > > in excess of the working standard of living". > > > > That dumps out all the people with union pensions who you care to > > point to, etc.. > > No, it doesn't, it just restricts it to the ones who've done the > financial prepwork so they can retire under those conditions. That > restriction eliminates anyone who's trying to live on a union pension, > but it certainly doesn't eliminate anyone with a union pension. OK: A union pension is not a sufficient condition for retirement; do you like that formulation better? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 19:39:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BDFB37B424 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:39:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 4E700755D; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BBAD1D89; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:42:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Mike Meyer , dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <200104210004.RAA14528@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: :> At 03:00 PM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: :> >Not true. The largest producer of software in the US throgh the early :> >80s never produced a single product, and they're still around. :> :> I sincerely doubt that. : :He is attemptiong to humporously refer to the U.S. Government. : :I see no value in software that is not productized. As someone who works for a company that writes software under contract for the above entity, it has quite a bit of value. To the contract holder anyway. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 19:42:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7484A37B422 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:42:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 16734 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2001 01:39:54 -0000 Received: from mail1.ha-net.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([207.44.96.65]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 21 Apr 2001 01:39:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 25202 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2001 02:42:47 -0000 Received: from du223.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.223]) (envelope-sender ) by mail.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 21 Apr 2001 02:42:47 -0000 Message-ID: <3AE0F352.C8065ACE@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:41:22 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010418003011.045ef3b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418064119.04710720@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010418215113.04440410@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419204731.00cfb800@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010419225829.04595a80@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 10:07 PM 4/19/2001, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > >Again, provide a citation. I've read the statute (which takes > >precedence over IRS interpretations (or should)); > > There's a lot more to it than the statute. There are letter rulings > and additional rules. See any good book on forming a non-profit, > or search on the Web for the term "unrelated business income." Agencies do not have the power to repeal statutes; regulations must conform to the statutes. In this case, the statute puts no limitation on unrelated business income, even if the FSF's income from the sale of software (excuse me, the sale of copies of software) is unrelated. For the third time, provide a citation to support your position. > >If you are so sure of yourself, why not bring the matter to the > >attention of the IRS? > > If someone other than myself hadn't already done so, I would. Since the IRS knows about the situation, and since the FSF has not lost its tax-exempt status, it would appear that the FSF is within the law. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 19:46: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 867CD37B423 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:46:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D2E30755D; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEEB81D89; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:49:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mike Meyer , dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <200104192252.PAA22484@usr01.primenet.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: :Let's cut the BS: I want to be able to build a piece of software, :and sell the rights to use it, for as long as the market will pay :for those rights. Then, according to some, you are an evil person who deserves to be shunned and hated. Sucks to be you. Well, except for the fact that you probably don't have to care about other people's opinions. :I'm not some ivory tower academeic who can live on "genius" grants :resulting from my public speaking. :I want to be paid the fair market value of my labor. What, you think Stallman should put up or shut up? Join the club. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 20 21:36:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCC7F37B423 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:36:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21481; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:36:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010420223353.04732470@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:36:00 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux Cc: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200104210004.RAA14528@usr07.primenet.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419200357.0469ba40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:03 PM 4/20/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >He is attemptiong to humporously refer to the U.S. Government. > >I see no value in software that is not productized. Well, the US Government *does* refer to many of the things it does and produces as "products," so I wouldn't exactly say that none of it was productized. Also, one might say that the BSD TCP/IP stack was a product of the US Government via DARPA. So, I would disagree with him, but on the grounds that much of the software and/or services really *were* productized. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 21 1:58:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6EDF937B422 for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 01:58:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 14654 invoked by uid 100); 21 Apr 2001 08:58:19 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15073.19371.99471.534039@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 03:58:19 -0500 To: Terry Lambert Cc: dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <200104210008.RAA14599@usr07.primenet.com> References: <15071.59246.855623.766901@guru.mired.org> <200104210008.RAA14599@usr07.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > > Yup. Their lack of vision is going to drive them bankrupt. > How would a "visionary company" fund R&D, IYHO? Depends on the software they're trying to produce. I've already described a number of different business models for recovering R&D costs, including selling services and improving staff efficiency. Focusing on one particular business model - whether it's productization or improved efficiency - leads to idiotic claims like "The GPL will reduce programmers to penury." http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 21 2: 6:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 561E937B422 for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 02:06:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 14907 invoked by uid 100); 21 Apr 2001 09:06:11 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15073.19843.672878.480647@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 04:06:11 -0500 To: Terry Lambert Cc: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer), dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <200104210004.RAA14528@usr07.primenet.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010419200357.0469ba40@localhost> <200104210004.RAA14528@usr07.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > > At 03:00 PM 4/19/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > >Not true. The largest producer of software in the US throgh the early > > >80s never produced a single product, and they're still around. > > I sincerely doubt that. > He is attemptiong to humporously refer to the U.S. Government. Nothing humorous about it. They were the largest producer of software through the the early 80s, and they almost certainly still hold that title. They never funded software development by selling the software. They use the same method people selling software as a product use - they threaten to send armed men after anyone who refuses to cough up a fair share - as defined by the organization producing the software - of the R&D costs. > I see no value in software that is not productized. Depends on how your defining "productized". If you mean "made ready for the intended end user", I'd agree with that. If you mean "sold as a product to fund R&D" - which is what I expect Brett meant, as he claimed that it was the only viable model for funding R&D, I'd have to disagree. CSRG never productized BSD in the latter sense, but a lot of people found value in it. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 21 3: 7:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 15FDC37B43E for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 03:07:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 20578 invoked by uid 100); 21 Apr 2001 10:07:01 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15073.23492.944973.214417@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 05:07:00 -0500 To: Terry Lambert Cc: trevor@jpj.net (Trevor Johnson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stallman now claims authorship of Linux In-Reply-To: <200104210025.RAA14856@usr07.primenet.com> References: <15071.63200.662238.163174@guru.mired.org> <200104210025.RAA14856@usr07.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > > > > > You clearly do not understand that some businesses can switch > > > > > from a "service" to a "product" business model. > > > > You can say that after I pointed out that there were alternative > > > > business models? > > > Yes. I can categorically state that your proposed revenue > > > models require input proportional to the revenue they > > > generate, whereas proprietary software models have revenue > > > which is based on market valuation, not on effort input, > > > and that the difference between those two values is the > > > amount of money you can show as profit for shareholders, > > > as well as applying to R&D costs. > > > > That adjective "effort" hides a multitude of sins. All the models have > > a gross profit based on market valuation. In the proprietary software > > model, the effort input is part of the fixed costs, not the per-unit > > costs. GPL'd software has the restriction that the per-unit price > > can't be raised to arbitrary multiples of the per-unit cost, which > > makes it resemble most other products. > I don't understand your use of the word "sin" here. Basically, that you're changing the definition of the "input" by restricting it to "effort". That's simply playing word games. > Patent and copyright protection also permits the per-unit price to > be raised to arbitrary multiples of the per-unit cost. That should be preceeded by "both", as the issue at hand is really copyright. The GPL simply prevents authors modifying GPL'ed software from using the copyright monopoly to advance their goals. Then again, the GPL is using the copyright monopoly to advance goals of the original author. > I think the thing you are apparently refusing to factor in is that > the labor itself is not based on the per-unit *value*. No, I'm aware of that. It's just part of the overhead. > What this means is that a J.D. Salinger may have only 6 good > Novels in him to be written in his lifetime. The money he > makes must therefore be 1/6th of the money he requires as his > total lifetime income, in order to encourage him to write them. This has at least three assumptions that you need to prove. One is that he had no other means of income, as otherwise you've placed the value to high. Second is that he wouldn't have written them unless he were paid for them. Harlan Ellison's description of the typical writer discovering that you can sell your writings - "You go from writing stories and stuffing the paper into the wall for insulation to writing stories, selling them and stuffing the money into the wall for insulation" (roughly - again, my books are pretty much all in story) tends to indicate that that is false for at least some authors, so may be false for this one. Finally, assuming those two things are true, you are assuming the only way of providing that income is via the copyright monopoly. > > > > If you start a research project aimed at modifying a GPL'ed > > > > program, the "product" model clearly isn't available. > > > You are confusing "R" with "D". The model is vailable, but is > > > contingent on a business plan. Business plans can change. > > > Since the model is, as you say, unavailable, clearly, GPL'ed > > > code is not desirable to use when starting a business where > > > you don't want to be locked into a single revenue model or > > > exit strategy. > > I can't argue that there are times when GPL'ed code isn't desirable. > Thank you. That doesn't mean that aren't times when it isn't a problem, either. It exists, and any business plan that doesn't include it isn't dealing with reality. Business plans that don't deal with reality have a habit of failing. > > > > Again - what kind of idiot would invest 3 years without a > > > > plan to pay for it? > > > A researcher, who has only the materials available at hand, > > > including open source software, from which to build upon to > > > do his research. > > In that case, the correct person to blame if it turns out they can't > > pay for the result is themselves. > This assumes that the person paying for the research is the researcher > making the decision on the code base. > > The researcher makes a decision based on information available > at the time the decision must be made. > > It is _completely unreasonable_ to expect a researcher to know > all the details of the business operation, in the same way that > it is _completely unreasonable_ to expect a business person to > know all the details of the research operation. > > You are totally ignoring the concept of seperation of roles. A > single person simply _can not_ know everything. True. But the GPL isn't the only thing that can cause problems like this. If some business model is critical to funding the research, then it becomes part of the research problem. It's the buinsess person's responsibility to see that the researcher has all the information relevant to solving the problem. If they fail to provide that information, then they have only themselves to blame if the solution provided doesn't handle that criteria. > > > As far as running the program, the question is whether, when the > > > program is run on the web server on behalf of a user, whether it > > > is you running the program, or whether it is the user running the > > > program using your equipment. > > I'd be interested to know why those two are different cases. > Because in one case, I effectively give you the program and say > "here, run this"; in the other, I keep the program and say "here, > let me run this for you so that you may interact with it". That seems like a pretty silly thing to do - but RMS might well do it. > > > I think you need to read some of RMS' recent writing on the > > > subject of Application Service Providers, since it's clear that > > > such an arrangement would be against the spirit of the GPL. > > > If you want to argue my interpretation, take it up with IBM's > > > legal department, since it is the lawyers, not me, who arrived > > > at this interpretation. > > > > It's clear from RMSs statements that he wants the GPL to cover > > ASPs. That he wants it to is a pretty good indication that it > > doesn't. If I were IBMs lawyers and knew that he wanted that, I'd > > recommend against a business plan that depended on it not covering > > that case as well, as that minimizes the risk of being shown to be > > wrong. > > The problem with that is the "or later version" clause in the > license. RMS can come out with a version 3.0 of the license > which changes the terms out from under you. That only applies if the copyright owner allows it. Without some form of warranty that the GPL will never be changed to something restrictive, that would be a pretty silly thing to do. Of course, if the FSF is the copyright holder, they would naturally do that. And they are asking people to assign copyright to the FSF... > > > Fine. If you could point me toward the GNU equivalent of Microsoft > > > Office, I'd be happy to use it. It should be able to read and > > > write all Microsoft file formats, since my staff must communicate > > > with real world customers in order for me to make money. > > > > If you've been that badly infected by the microsoft virus, feel free > > to extend the OpenOffice.org software until it meets your > > requirements. > > > > Personally, I have better uses for my time. > > So do I. So I weigh the costs of extending OpenOffice (really, > writing the thing, since it's so inferior to the Microsoft > equivalents), and I find that it costs me significantly less to > just buy the Microsoft software instead. Quite right. No single business model is applicable to all situations. Trying to force fit one business model onto all situations is an idiotic thing to do. But that's exactly what claims like "Without copyright, nobody would write software because they couldn't sell it" do. > It has nothing to do with "the microsoft virus", as you call it: > it has to do with business not operating in a vacuum. The vast > majority of the business software space is Microsoft. If software > doesn't interoperate, then it's just wasted space on the hard > drive. That *is* the Microsoft virus. Their software is designed to make others have to buy Microsoft products. Virus may not be the biologically correct phrase, but it's certainly some form of disease or parasite. > > > > > D) Being a paid support flunky for the software. > > > > > > > > > > E) Being a wage-slave for improvements to the software. > > > > > > > > > > F) Being paid a small amount for the initial developement > > > > > as a work for hire for the benefit of the GPL, such > > > > > that your wages need to be arbitrarily low, since your > > > > > wages can not be amortized. > > > > > > > > > > The GPL thus promotes amateurs in place of trained engineers, > > > > > unless you are willing to work until you die, and never be > > > > > able to retire as a result of rewards for your efforts. > > > > First, this means the GPL has the same effect as commercial software. > > > No. I can own a commercial software company, even if it's just > > > me and some guy named "Bob". Microsoft is not the only commercial > > > software company. > > > > You can own a GPL software company even if it's just you and some guy > > named Bob. I don't see a difference. > > I don't own anything. Or if I do own something, it's not a > software company. A software company is a company which sells > software. If I have to give away my source code for free any > time someone asks for it, I may be a consultant or some other > form of wage-slave, and I may own a flunky employment agency, > or I might own a software _distribution_ company, but I sure as > heck am not the owner of a software company. I never said it was a business that was guaranteed to work. Then again, if I had a business that was guaranteed to work, I wouldn't be wasting time on freebsd mailling lists. If you want to quibble at terminology and claim that having to give away the source for the software in your pretty packaged box means you aren't a software company, no problem. You now own a company that generates revenue by writing and selling software products, but it isn't a software company. > > > > Since many of them do manage to retire as a result of the rewards > > > > of their efforts, I'd say your final conclusion is false. > > > "Many" != "vast majority". > > Right - not everyone working under those conditions manage to retire > > etc. Most startups fail, so their owners don't get to retire that way > > either. Your conclusion is still false. > How so? My conclusion was that there was an exception to your > conclusion, and therefore your conclusion was false. How is it > that your conclusion is still right, even after I have demonstrated > a case where it isn't? Because I didn't make a universal claim, you did. You effectively said "you can't retire under these conditions". A single counterexample invalidates that. I provided a class of counterexamples, and hence concluded "you can retire under those conditions." You've shown that some members of that class don't retire under those conditions, but to invalidate my claim you need to show that *no* members of the class can retire under those conditions. That's going to be hard to do when I'm related to members who've retired under those conditions. > > > Let us say "retire at a monetary standard of living equal to or > > > in excess of the working standard of living". > > > > > > That dumps out all the people with union pensions who you care to > > > point to, etc.. > > > > No, it doesn't, it just restricts it to the ones who've done the > > financial prepwork so they can retire under those conditions. That > > restriction eliminates anyone who's trying to live on a union pension, > > but it certainly doesn't eliminate anyone with a union pension. > > OK: A union pension is not a sufficient condition for retirement; > do you like that formulation better? Yup. I won't argue with it. Anyone who plans on retiring on a union pension, or social security, or even both, is probably going to fail. Not everybody is that stupid. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 21 10:37:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEFE737B422; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:37:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@foo.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from foo.osd.bsdi.com (root@foo.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.137]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f3LHbaK63124; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:37:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@foo.osd.bsdi.com) Received: (from jhb@localhost) by foo.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f3LHZZ364339; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:35:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200104210345.f3L3jJ244635@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Organization: BSD, Inc. From: John Baldwin To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: RE: cvs commit: src/sys/conf newvers.sh Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Apr-01 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > jkh 2001/04/20 20:45:19 PDT > > Modified files: (Branch: RELENG_4_3) > sys/conf newvers.sh > Log: > This branch is now at 4.3-RELEASE > > Revision Changes Path > 1.44.2.14.2.1 +2 -2 src/sys/conf/newvers.sh ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Fear. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.Baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 21 11:59:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 681EE37B443 for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:59:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA45830; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 20:59:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Morten A . Middelthon" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wind River/BSDi stuff again References: <20010420142314.B22297@freenix.no> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 Apr 2001 20:59:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010420142314.B22297@freenix.no> Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Morten A . Middelthon" writes: > [...] Afaik BSDi was only vendor located in Scandinavia which > sold FreeBSD-servers, so I think it's very sad to see them shut down like > this. Improbus (http://www.improbus.com/) in Bergen sell iXtreme-based firewalls and NIDSes (at least, their web pages claim they do). You shouldn't have too much trouble convincing them to sell you naked iron; try talking to RoboDoc on IRC. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message