From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 6 0:28:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E175837B423 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 00:28:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA13832; Sun, 6 May 2001 01:27:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010506012424.045f37f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 01:27:51 -0600 To: Joe Warner , Joseph Mallett From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , In-Reply-To: <01050522221201.00681@blackmirror.xmission.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Working for Microsoft can, indeed, be selling your soul. Even if you're supposedly an independent contractor, but much more so if you're an actual employee. See the Salon article "Coder on the Cross," at http://salon.com/tech/feature/2001/05/02/sacrifice/print.html which describes the experience of someone who goes to work at a startup run by former Microsoft execs. --Brett At 10:16 PM 5/5/2001, Joe Warner wrote: >Yes, it's certainly true that they pay well but that in itself comes with a >price. In order to get paid well, you basically have to sell your soul >to them. A guy I work with said that he has a neighbor who works for >them and a typical work week is 60 hours and it's not because he's >a work-a-holic, it's because it's standard policy. > > >Joe > > > >On Sat, 05 May 2001, Joseph Mallett wrote: >> And FSF's Own the world is not a threat why? At least MS doesn't want to >> force anyone in industry to work for nothing -- they pay well. >> >> FSF wants programmers to die out. I second Brett's recommendation of >> 'Hackers', it explains the big bad crazy man quite well. >> >> -- >> [ Joseph Mallett ] >> [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] >> [ Proud Open/Free/Net/4.4BSD User; C Programmer; Mad ] [ www.xMach.org ] >> >> Support my computer addiction buy something from http://www.jmallett.org >-- >Joe Warner >Daemon News >Bringing BSD Together >Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org >Daily Daemon News http://daily.daemonnews.org/ >Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 6 0:29: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B80E37B424 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 00:29:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA13849; Sun, 6 May 2001 01:28:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010506012812.045fe360@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 01:28:52 -0600 To: Joseph Mallett , Joe Warner From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , In-Reply-To: References: <01050522221201.00681@blackmirror.xmission.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:22 PM 5/5/2001, Joseph Mallett wrote: >I work at least 60 hours a week, and I don't get paid. The fun and >excitement of coding just to code. =P Yes, but you're lucky. You're a "kept man...." At least until you graduate from high school. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 6 1:48:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EEC2E37B422 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 01:48:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 18996 invoked by uid 100); 6 May 2001 08:48:40 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15093.4072.753271.794900@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 03:48:40 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Publishers attacks on public rights. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505204835.04581f00@localhost> References: <15092.25245.522296.661709@guru.mired.org> <15091.47616.961220.499572@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505100806.04406ce0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505204835.04581f00@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > In any event, Mike has dragged the level of discourse down to > approximately that amount of maturity... or perhaps a bit > lower. There's no point in clogging the list. I won't make the obvious reply, but will simply point out that I *apologized* as soon as I started replying to Brett in kind. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 6 8:17:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524F437B423 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 08:17:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rootman@xmission.com) Received: from [166.70.2.160] (helo=blackmirror.xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 14wQHV-0008DT-00; Sun, 06 May 2001 09:17:09 -0600 From: Joe Warner Organization: Daemon News To: Brett Glass , Joseph Mallett Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 09:11:11 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010506012424.045f37f0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010506012424.045f37f0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01050609164800.01660@blackmirror.xmission.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (Yawn)..Sorry, I had to sleep. Yes, this article only confirms what I've already read and heard from other sources. What good is money if you don't have the time to spend it? Wasn't it Confucius that said; "All things in moderation." ? Joe On Sun, 06 May 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > Working for Microsoft can, indeed, be selling your soul. Even if you're > supposedly an independent contractor, but much more so if you're an > actual employee. See the Salon article "Coder on the Cross," at > > http://salon.com/tech/feature/2001/05/02/sacrifice/print.html > > which describes the experience of someone who goes to work at > a startup run by former Microsoft execs. > > --Brett > > At 10:16 PM 5/5/2001, Joe Warner wrote: > > > >Yes, it's certainly true that they pay well but that in itself comes with a > >price. In order to get paid well, you basically have to sell your soul > >to them. A guy I work with said that he has a neighbor who works for > >them and a typical work week is 60 hours and it's not because he's > >a work-a-holic, it's because it's standard policy. > > > > > >Joe > > > > > > > >On Sat, 05 May 2001, Joseph Mallett wrote: > >> And FSF's Own the world is not a threat why? At least MS doesn't want to > >> force anyone in industry to work for nothing -- they pay well. > >> > >> FSF wants programmers to die out. I second Brett's recommendation of > >> 'Hackers', it explains the big bad crazy man quite well. > >> > >> -- > >> [ Joseph Mallett ] > >> [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] > >> [ Proud Open/Free/Net/4.4BSD User; C Programmer; Mad ] [ www.xMach.org ] > >> > >> Support my computer addiction buy something from http://www.jmallett.org > >-- > >Joe Warner > >Daemon News > >Bringing BSD Together > >Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org > >Daily Daemon News http://daily.daemonnews.org/ > >Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 6 9:53:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C0E537B422 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 09:53:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1056"@[136.142.20.153]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K38SZHSJ0Q003JUD@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 6 May 2001 12:53:24 EDT Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 05:06:19 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3AF5140B.BECBF4C@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010505205342.00c3d2a0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010505212911.00c3d3a0@localhost> <01050522095600.00681@blackmirror.xmission.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joe Warner wrote: > > >BSD is free software. GPLed software isn't. > > ..but this is from a programmers perspective and not just a > users, right? > Contrary to RMS's argument, .... from a user's perspective. binary only is free. The user doesn't need the source code. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 6 9:53:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B63ED37B424 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 09:53:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1057"@[136.142.20.153]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K38SZKIQYG001ZQZ@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 6 May 2001 12:53:28 EDT Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 05:16:44 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3AF5167C.6B88C588@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <01050522221201.00681@blackmirror.xmission.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In the US the policy has been that of increasing the number of hours in the work week. This has been done despite studies done in europe with HP and Volkswagen where it was actually showed that hiring people for half shifts increased productivity. This situation is becoming standard in all industries, not just in software or in Microsoft. The book "End of Work" mentions that all this modern techniques of continuous improvement, are just ways in which employees find better ways to be exploited. We are doomed. Pedro. Joe Warner wrote: > > Yes, it's certainly true that they pay well but that in itself comes with a > price. In order to get paid well, you basically have to sell your soul > to them. A guy I work with said that he has a neighbor who works for > them and a typical work week is 60 hours and it's not because he's > a work-a-holic, it's because it's standard policy. > > Joe > > On Sat, 05 May 2001, Joseph Mallett wrote: > > And FSF's Own the world is not a threat why? At least MS doesn't want to > > force anyone in industry to work for nothing -- they pay well. > > > > FSF wants programmers to die out. I second Brett's recommendation of > > 'Hackers', it explains the big bad crazy man quite well. > > > > -- > > [ Joseph Mallett ] > > [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] > > [ Proud Open/Free/Net/4.4BSD User; C Programmer; Mad ] [ www.xMach.org ] > > > > Support my computer addiction buy something from http://www.jmallett.org > -- > Joe Warner > Daemon News > Bringing BSD Together > Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org > Daily Daemon News http://daily.daemonnews.org/ > Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 6 10:29:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from desh.cse.iitd.ernet.in (mailer.cse.iitd.ac.in [202.141.68.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E17AE37B423 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 10:29:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from csu96154@bilawal.cse.iitd.ernet.in) Received: from cse.iitd.ernet.in (IDENT:root@bilawal [10.20.14.27]) by desh.cse.iitd.ernet.in (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f46Haqf12861 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 23:06:52 +0530 Received: from localhost (csu96154@localhost) by cse.iitd.ernet.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01153 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 23:06:52 +0530 Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 23:06:52 +0530 (IST) From: Rakhesh Sasidharan To: freebsd-chat Subject: Hosting my own domain. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I didn't know where else to ask a (general) question like this; but you guys might be more experienced in such things. I have registered for a domain. Now my problem is I want to host it, but I don't know how to go about doing it. I surfed thet Net a bit, and came across lots of hosting companies, but what I want is to host the domain myself. I want to run my own nameserver, and want to have links like www.mydomain.com, www2.mydomain.com etc ... I understand that one solution is to get a leased line from my ISP, but I checked and saw that most of the prices are way to high, and plus, the overheads of laying the cable, etc etc. How then, do most people do it ? I mean, I have seen plenty of personal sites on the Net, and I'm sure there must be some cheaper alternative out there ... is a leased line the only way to get a static IP, or are there other ways ? I hope somebody could help. Thanks, Rakhesh To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 6 11:12:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 95B4937B423 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 11:12:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 23187 invoked by uid 100); 6 May 2001 18:12:19 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15093.37891.477055.231085@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 13:12:19 -0500 To: Rakhesh Sasidharan Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rakhesh Sasidharan types: > I didn't know where else to ask a (general) question like this; but you > guys might be more experienced in such things. > > I have registered for a domain. Now my problem is I want to host it, but > I don't know how to go about doing it. I surfed thet Net a bit, and came > across lots of hosting companies, but what I want is to host the domain > myself. I want to run my own nameserver, and want to have links like > www.mydomain.com, www2.mydomain.com etc ... > > I understand that one solution is to get a leased line from my ISP, but I > checked and saw that most of the prices are way to high, and plus, the > overheads of laying the cable, etc etc. How then, do most people do it ? > I mean, I have seen plenty of personal sites on the Net, and I'm sure > there must be some cheaper alternative out there ... is a leased line the > only way to get a static IP, or are there other ways ? > > I hope somebody could help. The first step is to check your local ISPs, and see what kind of services they offer. The machine your name servers run on has to have a full-time connection to the net and a static IP address, so that's the kind of service you're looking for. That generally means either a leased line of some kind, or if you can find a cooperative ISP, a broadband connection. Some ISPs will support that on a POTS line, but last time I looked into it it cost more than DSL. You also need a second DNS server, preferable on a different network than your first one. If you've got a cooperative ISP, they'll provide that for you. The best setup I've seen is that they will add your domain to their name server system, with your server listed as the master. You list their servers as the name servers for the domain, and thus avoid DNS lookup traffic over your link, except for the domain transfer from their master. If you're willing to give up running your own name servers, you can use a broadband (or dialup) connection and one of the dynamic name services. Be sure and check the TOS for the ISP you're buying service from to make sure that they allow whatever you're planning on doing. Don't be surprised if you run into problems if you try running your own mail server and sending mail from your host. Mostly, you'll find various anti-spam measures that cause your mail to fail. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 6 11:55:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from desh.cse.iitd.ernet.in (mailer.cse.iitd.ac.in [202.141.68.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EA5837B422 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 11:55:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rakhesh@cse.iitd.ac.in) Received: from ahiri.cse.iitd.ernet.in (IDENT:csu96154@ahiri [10.20.13.12]) by desh.cse.iitd.ernet.in (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f46J2if14124; Mon, 7 May 2001 00:32:44 +0530 Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 00:32:21 +0530 (IST) From: Rakhesh Sasidharan X-Sender: csu96154@ahiri.cse.iitd.ernet.in To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. In-Reply-To: <15093.37891.477055.231085@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks Mike! Suppose I choose to forgo running a name server and use some dynamic name services, then can I have subdomains like www or www2 etc ? Also, I want to have receive mail for rakhesh@mydomain.com, ratish@mydomain.com etc, but don't want any ISP imposed limits (like space etc), is the only way I can do that be by running my own mail server, or is there something else ? And if I am running my own mail server, and have a dynamic IP (say, I use DSL), then can I use dynamic name services for my purpose (to keep changing the MX records as well) ? I'm not quite clear on all these matters ... __ Rakhesh To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 6 12:42: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F48437B43C for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 12:42:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f46JeJ370237; Sun, 6 May 2001 12:40:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Mall and 4.3 In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010506124019U.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 12:40:19 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 13 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We hope to be shipping the 4.3 CDs off to replication this week. The delay was indeed due to the transition between BSDi and WindRiver since it wasn't at all clear until Friday (May 4th) just who would be paying for what, so we sort of slowed things up until the deal was finally signed. We'll make every effort to fast-track things through replication now and get this on the shelves (or shipping via) mailorder ASAP. I also hope to have quite a bit more logistical support in getting this product into stores and into international distribution than was formerly the case. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 6 13:18:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D13F37B422 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 13:18:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 26110 invoked by uid 100); 6 May 2001 20:18:47 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15093.45479.111822.276730@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 15:18:47 -0500 To: Rakhesh Sasidharan Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. In-Reply-To: References: <15093.37891.477055.231085@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rakhesh Sasidharan types: > Suppose I choose to forgo running a name server and use some dynamic name > services, then can I have subdomains like www or www2 etc ? It depends on the dynamic name service, but they all have to point at the same IP address. > Also, I want to have receive mail for rakhesh@mydomain.com, > ratish@mydomain.com etc, but don't want any ISP imposed limits (like space > etc), is the only way I can do that be by running my own mail server, > or is there something else ? There's no other way. If you put the mail on your ISPs machine, you have to deal with their limits. That may or may not be a problem, depending on the ISP. I've run into some with no hard limits on mail, but they did charge per mb of disk storage if you left it on their system. Having your own domain is usually a value added service. > And if I am running my own mail server, and have a dynamic IP (say, > I use DSL), then can I use dynamic name services for my purpose (to > keep changing the MX records as well) ? The only way I've seen it done is that the dynamic name services deal with the MX records, if there are any. Generally, all mail to any hostname in your domain should be sent to your IP address. For these things, you reall need to check with your dynamic dns servers. I don't think any of the free ones offer top level domain services. I use tzo.com for mine. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 6 17:19:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E8C37B423 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 17:19:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup846.brussels2.skynet.be [194.78.238.14]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f470J1123534; Mon, 7 May 2001 02:19:02 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15093.37891.477055.231085@guru.mired.org> References: <15093.37891.477055.231085@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 01:51:55 +0200 To: Mike Meyer , Rakhesh Sasidharan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. Cc: freebsd-chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:12 PM -0500 5/6/01, Mike Meyer wrote: > You also need a second DNS server, preferable on a different network > than your first one. If you've got a cooperative ISP, they'll provide > that for you. The best setup I've seen is that they will add your > domain to their name server system, with your server listed as the > master. You list their servers as the name servers for the domain, and > thus avoid DNS lookup traffic over your link, except for the domain > transfer from their master. If you've got a fixed IP address assigned to you, I would suggest that you check out getting a free secondary nameserver via the Nominum GNS project -- these guys have a network of high-availability nameservers distributed around the world, and (last I looked) the entry level service is available at no charge. See for more information. IMO, this would be better than having your ISP set up as a secondary for your domain (if you need to change ISPs, you can just change the IP address that GNS/secondary.com pulls a copy of your zones from, and everything else automatically moves with you). Of course, the best solution of all would be to get both your ISP and GNS/secondary.com to be secondaries for your domain (you'll want to think about setting up reverse DNS, and your ISP may be suspicious if they work with you to do this but they aren't a secondary for your domain). -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 6 17:19:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B129637B422 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 17:19:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup846.brussels2.skynet.be [194.78.238.14]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f470It123439; Mon, 7 May 2001 02:18:56 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 01:46:10 +0200 To: Rakhesh Sasidharan , freebsd-chat From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:06 PM +0530 5/6/01, Rakhesh Sasidharan wrote: > I understand that one solution is to get a leased line from my ISP, but I > checked and saw that most of the prices are way to high, and plus, the > overheads of laying the cable, etc etc. How then, do most people do it ? > I mean, I have seen plenty of personal sites on the Net, and I'm sure > there must be some cheaper alternative out there ... is a leased line the > only way to get a static IP, or are there other ways ? It all depends on what you want and how you want to get it. A leased line from your ISP is certainly one way to go. However, there are other alternatives. For one, you could get a box dedicated to you and your domain, but hosted at a co-location facility. However, most co-location facilities have bandwidth limitations or bandwidth charges, frequently on a monthly basis. If you don't want any kind of limitations like that, then pretty much your only choice is to get a static IP address (or entire network) assigned to you, and either a leased line or other 24x7 network access (maybe an ISDN line, or an SDSL line, or maybe even a cable modem). However, even with these choices, there may be limitations placed on you by the provider -- you need to check out their Terms of Service, etc.... I would say that most vanity domains I know of are probably actually done as a virtual hosting (a shared server at a central location serves up pages for hundreds, or even thousands of domains, and you are just one of many users on that machine, and you have access only to your own files but do not control the machine itself). There are also virtual machine services, where they simulate a machine in software, and you have complete control over that simulated machine. Unless you replace the binaries that they provide, you have a full OS image that you have the use of, and a certain amount of data space left over that is dedicated to you. If you want to compile and install some different or additional programs which might then run as services on your virtual machine, you can do that but then that comes out of your private allocation. In either of the above cases, mail for your domain may well be handled by a totally separate machine (or set of machines), and you might have just a standard user-level POP3 or IMAP account to access that mailbox. On a virtual machine, you could have it set up to handle the mail for you, but then you would have to pay for the mailbox storage out of your private disk space allocation. All virtual hosting or virtual machine services that I know of will, of course, have limits placed on their bandwidth utilization, disk storage utilization, etc.... Most people don't seem to have a problem with this, but some people would prefer to run everything themselves with as few limits as possible. What it boils down to is this -- how much control do you want/need? The maximum amount of control is only available with a fixed IP address assigned to you and some sort of dedicated network access (e.g., leased line, ISDN, SDSL, or cable modem), and you will pay a lot more for this kind of access. Basically, you're setting yourself up with all the facilities you'd need to become a small ISP, and the companies you buy those services from are going to make sure they charge you accordingly. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 6 17:19:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0716137B50E for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 17:19:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup846.brussels2.skynet.be [194.78.238.14]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f470JD123729; Mon, 7 May 2001 02:19:15 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 01:56:56 +0200 To: Rakhesh Sasidharan , Mike Meyer From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. Cc: freebsd-chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:32 AM +0530 5/7/01, Rakhesh Sasidharan wrote: > Suppose I choose to forgo running a name server and use some dynamic name > services, then can I have subdomains like www or www2 etc ? No, not really. If you use a dynamic name service, you're going to get assigned something like rakesh.dyndns.org as your domain name, and since your IP address will change each time you dial-in (and you'll have to go through some sort of additional process to register with your dynamic DNS provider to tell them what your new IP address is), this means that you can't host your own domain (beyond what is assigned to you), you can't have subdomains (because you aren't running your own nameserver), etc.... > Also, I want to have receive mail for rakhesh@mydomain.com, > ratish@mydomain.com etc, but don't want any ISP imposed limits (like space > etc), is the only way I can do that be by running my own mail server, > or is there something else ? And if I am running my own mail server, and > have a dynamic IP (say, I use DSL), then can I use dynamic name services > for my purpose (to keep changing the MX records as well) ? If you use a dynamic DNS service, you pretty much give up all that. Yes, you could receive mail addressed to user@rakesh.dyndns.org, and you could have your own machine set up to handle all this mail (although you'd want to register with someone that has a full-time connection to the 'net to serve as a backup MX for you), but that would be about it. If you want more control than this, then you have to be willing to pay more money for it. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 6 21:39:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3DB537B424 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 21:39:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f474aLf44474; Mon, 7 May 2001 00:36:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 00:36:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Mall and 4.3 In-Reply-To: <20010506124019U.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heh. Saw 4.2-RELEASE in my local CompUSA today -- never seen it there before, so that's great news. Leigh and I quietly pulled them out from behind a RedHat poster, and strategically placed FreeBSD boxes in front of some of the RedHat boxes on the top shelf. Hope to see 4.3-RELEASE there soon. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services On Sun, 6 May 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > We hope to be shipping the 4.3 CDs off to replication this week. The > delay was indeed due to the transition between BSDi and WindRiver > since it wasn't at all clear until Friday (May 4th) just who would be > paying for what, so we sort of slowed things up until the deal was > finally signed. We'll make every effort to fast-track things through > replication now and get this on the shelves (or shipping via) > mailorder ASAP. > > I also hope to have quite a bit more logistical support in getting > this product into stores and into international distribution than was > formerly the case. > > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 7 3:33:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B3A9337B422 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 03:33:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 43085 invoked by uid 100); 7 May 2001 10:33:18 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15094.31214.636801.776965@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 05:33:18 -0500 To: Brad Knowles Cc: , Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles types: > At 12:32 AM +0530 5/7/01, Rakhesh Sasidharan wrote: > > Suppose I choose to forgo running a name server and use some dynamic name > > services, then can I have subdomains like www or www2 etc ? > No, not really. If you use a dynamic name service, you're going > to get assigned something like rakesh.dyndns.org as your domain name, > and since your IP address will change each time you dial-in (and > you'll have to go through some sort of additional process to register > with your dynamic DNS provider to tell them what your new IP address > is), this means that you can't host your own domain (beyond what is > assigned to you), you can't have subdomains (because you aren't > running your own nameserver), etc.... I'm not familiar with dyndns, but tzo.com (which is a commercial service) points *any* reference to your TLD at your one IP address. So I can set up www & www2 as name-based virtual hosts. I could even set up www.mike.mired.org as such a server, and gee, look - the MX for mail.mike.mired.org already points to mail.mired.org, so I can use my mail servers virtual domain system to sort out mail for that. > If you use a dynamic DNS service, you pretty much give up all > that. Yes, you could receive mail addressed to > user@rakesh.dyndns.org, and you could have your own machine set up to > handle all this mail (although you'd want to register with someone > that has a full-time connection to the 'net to serve as a backup MX > for you), but that would be about it. Unless you already have a full-time connection, that is. > If you want more control than this, then you have to be willing > to pay more money for it. It's certainly true that tzo.com doesn't give you much control - but they do let you use any name in your domain name space, and you do have to pay for it. They are really designed for the case where you have one dynamic IP address, and just point everything at that. I suspect you could get a bit more flexibility if you had more than one - and were willing to pay more - but I haven't investigated that. Dynamic DNS is really a poor substitute for having fixed IP addresses if you've got a permanent connection, but in areas where IPSs are thin on the ground, there may not be one that offers static IPs with broadband service. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 7 5:11:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A88437B422 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 05:11:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f47CBW121992; Mon, 7 May 2001 14:11:32 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15094.31214.636801.776965@guru.mired.org> References: <15094.31214.636801.776965@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 14:11:27 +0200 To: Mike Meyer From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. Cc: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:33 AM -0500 5/7/01, Mike Meyer wrote: > I'm not familiar with dyndns, but tzo.com (which is a commercial > service) points *any* reference to your TLD at your one IP address. So > I can set up www & www2 as name-based virtual hosts. I could even set > up www.mike.mired.org as such a server, and gee, look - the MX for > mail.mike.mired.org already points to mail.mired.org, so I can use my > mail servers virtual domain system to sort out mail for that. Interesting. Do they do this with a wildcard RR? I wonder what would happen if people started generating tons of spam with the return address "garbage@spam.mired.org", or somesuch other bogus return address, since tzo.com guarantees that all possible domains under mired.org will be valid? Just how many bounces of spam can you take, and how many irate responses can you deal with? > Dynamic DNS is really a poor substitute for having fixed IP addresses > if you've got a permanent connection, but in areas where IPSs are thin > on the ground, there may not be one that offers static IPs with > broadband service. Note that a static IP address allocation does not necessarily mean anything with regards to a full-time connection. You can easily have one without the other, in either direction. Back when I was a dial-up customer of Heller Information Services in the DC area, I was assigned a static IP address, even though I was on a modem and connected at most one or two hours a night. Over here, I have a whole network assigned to me, but I'm behind an Ethernet/ISDN router that is dial-on-demand, and will disconnect after a certain amount of idle time. Conversely, many broadband services give you a full-time (24x7 allowed) connection, but they may assign IP addresses dynamically. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 7 5:36:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 40A1B37B422 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 05:36:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 45649 invoked by uid 100); 7 May 2001 12:36:32 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15094.38608.55787.803267@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 07:36:32 -0500 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. In-Reply-To: References: <15094.31214.636801.776965@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles types: > At 5:33 AM -0500 5/7/01, Mike Meyer wrote: > > I'm not familiar with dyndns, but tzo.com (which is a commercial > > service) points *any* reference to your TLD at your one IP address. So > > I can set up www & www2 as name-based virtual hosts. I could even set > > up www.mike.mired.org as such a server, and gee, look - the MX for > > mail.mike.mired.org already points to mail.mired.org, so I can use my > > mail servers virtual domain system to sort out mail for that. > Interesting. Do they do this with a wildcard RR? Probably. You'd have to ask them. > I wonder what would happen if people started generating tons of > spam with the return address "garbage@spam.mired.org", or somesuch > other bogus return address, since tzo.com guarantees that all > possible domains under mired.org will be valid? Just how many > bounces of spam can you take, and how many irate responses can you > deal with? No more than I could if they used "garbage@mired.org". I've had the latter happen, and just set up an auto-responder saying that the mail had been forged, and I had nothing to do with it. Fortunately, there wasn't a lot of it. If you're really interested in this type of thing, check out the nowhere.com web site. > Note that a static IP address allocation does not necessarily > mean anything with regards to a full-time connection. You can easily > have one without the other, in either direction. Yup. At various times, I've had all four different versions. I even had a ricochet wireless modem - one of the original ones - with a static IP address. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 7 6: 4:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from firehouse.net (dsl-64-130-18-61.telocity.com [64.130.18.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9C67D37B422 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 06:04:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abc@firehouse.net) Received: (qmail 53862 invoked by uid 1000); 7 May 2001 13:07:50 -0000 Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:07:50 -0400 From: Alan Clegg To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Mall and 4.3 Message-ID: <20010507090750.B53760@diskfarm.firehouse.net> References: <20010506124019U.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from rwatson@FreeBSD.ORG on Mon, May 07, 2001 at 12:36:21AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Unless the network is lying to me again, Robert Watson said: > [...] Leigh and I quietly pulled them out from > behind a RedHat poster, and strategically placed FreeBSD boxes in front of > some of the RedHat boxes on the top shelf. Glad I'm not the only one that does that. AlanC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 7 6:16:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFF0937B422 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 06:16:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA12743; Mon, 7 May 2001 09:16:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:16:23 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Alan Clegg Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Mall and 4.3 Message-ID: <20010507091623.A12719@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20010506124019U.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010507090750.B53760@diskfarm.firehouse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010507090750.B53760@diskfarm.firehouse.net>; from alan@clegg.com on Mon, May 07, 2001 at 09:07:50AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 07, 2001 at 09:07:50AM -0400, Alan Clegg wrote: > Unless the network is lying to me again, Robert Watson said: > > > [...] Leigh and I quietly pulled them out from > > behind a RedHat poster, and strategically placed FreeBSD boxes in front of > > some of the RedHat boxes on the top shelf. > > Glad I'm not the only one that does that. You know, this strikes me as a perfect "User Group" activity. Everyone in the group could pick a store that's convenient for them, and go by every couple of days to be certain that the display is properly arranged. ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 7 11:39:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F7737B423 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 11:39:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA25938; Mon, 7 May 2001 11:39:16 -0700 Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdqVv_ia; Mon May 7 11:39:14 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA24978; Mon, 7 May 2001 11:40:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105071840.LAA24978@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Terry watches Jerry To: tech_info@threespace.com (Technical Information) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 18:40:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010504232705.03d21160@mail.threespace.com> from "Technical Information" at May 04, 2001 11:29:38 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Man, Terry...you write 3.8 billion lines of cross-platform code, dozens of > e-mails spanning multiple pages, and you still have time to watch Jerry > Springer? You're in-freakin'-credible, man! :-) > > Must have TiVo or something... Nope. And it was only 3.8 million lines of code, and I didn't write all of it myself... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 7 14:29:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E9937B42C for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 14:29:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA07131; Mon, 7 May 2001 14:22:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAWjaO2n; Mon May 7 14:22:16 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA15561; Mon, 7 May 2001 14:34:53 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105072134.OAA15561@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Is Brett Glass to easy on RMS? To: pfg1+@pitt.edu (Pedro F. Giffuni) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:34:53 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3AF5167C.6B88C588@pitt.edu> from "Pedro F. Giffuni" at May 06, 2001 05:16:44 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In the US the policy has been that of increasing the number of hours > in the work week. This has been done despite studies done in europe > with HP and Volkswagen where it was actually showed that hiring people > for half shifts increased productivity. > > This situation is becoming standard in all industries, not just in > software or in Microsoft. The book "End of Work" mentions that all > this modern techniques of continuous improvement, are just ways in > which employees find better ways to be exploited. We are doomed. It's an economic issue. The cost per employee is very high in the U.S.; in Europe, most of that cost is hidden in the tax system, where everyone pays a high tax rate for things like socialized medicine, which, in the U.S., is a per employee business cost, etc.. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 7 22:35:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from desh.cse.iitd.ernet.in (mailer.cse.iitd.ac.in [202.141.68.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6F0B37B422 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 22:35:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from csu96154@cse.iitd.ernet.in) Received: from ahiri.cse.iitd.ernet.in (IDENT:csu96154@ahiri [10.20.13.12]) by desh.cse.iitd.ernet.in (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f485eZf11544; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:10:35 +0530 Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:10:31 +0530 (IST) From: Rakhesh Sasidharan To: Brad Knowles Cc: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Suppose I choose to forgo running a name server and use some dynamic name > > services, then can I have subdomains like www or www2 etc ? > > No, not really. If you use a dynamic name service, you're going > to get assigned something like rakesh.dyndns.org as your domain name, > and since your IP address will change each time you dial-in (and > you'll have to go through some sort of additional process to register > with your dynamic DNS provider to tell them what your new IP address > is), this means that you can't host your own domain (beyond what is > assigned to you), you can't have subdomains (because you aren't > running your own nameserver), etc.... Just as an update, dyndns.org does provide dynamic dns services with our own domain name. It's there in the FAQ, and also in News pages; though it is currently in beta stages. Another service is Public DNS -- http://www.granitecanyon.com/ -- that lets you use a dynamic IP with your own domain name. And that too is free. > If you use a dynamic DNS service, you pretty much give up all > that. Yes, you could receive mail addressed to > user@rakesh.dyndns.org, and you could have your own machine set up to > handle all this mail (although you'd want to register with someone > that has a full-time connection to the 'net to serve as a backup MX > for you), but that would be about it. I plan to get a DSL connection. But I can't go for a static IP, as their static plan is about 10 times more than the dynamic one (and this particular ISP seems to be the only one here in India who offers DSL). Thus, I would have full-time connectivity, and could use a dynamic IP service to setup my machine as my mail/web/ftp server etc ... this is possible right ? BTW, would anyone know of any services offering a backup MX server also ? Just so that I can ensure mail does not bounce back even in times of power outages etc ... > /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ > /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ > /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ > /* */ > /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ > /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ > > dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' You might consider putting some comment in your signature mentioning that the above is the code ... not many people might be aware of it. :-) Thanks, __ Rakhesh To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 3:55:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-108.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE4D837B422 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 03:55:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8436967AF7; Tue, 8 May 2001 03:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 03:55:23 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Juha Saarinen Cc: Pete French , ertr1013@student.uu.se, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CFLAGS Optimization Message-ID: <20010508035522.A93006@xor.obsecurity.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from juha@saarinen.org on Tue, May 08, 2001 at 10:23:41PM +1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 08, 2001 at 10:23:41PM +1200, Juha Saarinen wrote: > :: I suspect people dont know the difference between gcc and pgcc=20 > :: (which ends up > :: being called 'gcc' on Linux I believe). pgcc does have optimisations up > :: to O6 - > ::=20 > :: http://www.goof.com/pcg/pgcc-faq.html#opts >=20 > No, -O9 is a valid optflag, from 2.95.2 from what I can tell. Please enlighten me what it does, then :-) Kris --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE699CaWry0BWjoQKURAgb+AJ4j1KiyyCdlw45vq5PmFrIcy9AOQACgxZUW ZFqvb2PA8z6P2vkpQ9cDHKs= =vA07 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 4:22:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from desh.cse.iitd.ernet.in (mailer.cse.iitd.ac.in [202.141.68.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA2F37B423 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 04:16:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from csu96154@deskar.cse.iitd.ernet.in) Received: from cse.iitd.ernet.in (IDENT:root@deskar [10.20.14.30]) by desh.cse.iitd.ernet.in (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f48BNah04084 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 16:53:36 +0530 Received: from localhost (csu96154@localhost) by cse.iitd.ernet.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01798 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 16:53:36 +0530 Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:53:36 +0530 (IST) From: Rakhesh Sasidharan To: freebsd-chat Subject: Hosting an NNTP server Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, Suppose I have a internal network and lots of diskspace, is it possible for me to get News feeds from the Net so that people on my network can read and post to them ? I'm not pretty sure of the question I want to ask (and what I want to do exactly), so could somebody give some starting pointers ... Basically, I want to do something like the NNTP servers on the Net do (get news feeds from the Net and let people access them), but I have no idea on what to do or where to start or how things work ... Maybe a link to how NNTP servers do their job might help ? Regards, __ Rakhesh To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 5:14:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E035337B422 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 05:14:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 76480 invoked by uid 100); 8 May 2001 12:14:35 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15095.58155.785819.365229@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 07:14:35 -0500 To: Rakhesh Sasidharan Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Hosting an NNTP server In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rakhesh Sasidharan types: > Basically, I want to do something like the NNTP servers on the Net do (get > news feeds from the Net and let people access them), but I have no idea on > what to do or where to start or how things work ... Maybe a link to how > NNTP servers do their job might help ? Providing for news reading works pretty much like any other information distribution service: you install a server, and users run clients that talk to the server to get the information. While it's possible to get news to your server with the same mechanism, it sounds like you're planning to get all the news, or close to that. For that, you're better off getting a feed. That's a push mechanism, as the feeding server decides which articles to offer you. You should check with your ISP to see if they offer that service. BTW, your questions might better fit in -questions than on -chat. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 5:35: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBA1437B422 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 05:35:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f48CY0118276; Tue, 8 May 2001 14:34:00 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:31:00 +0200 To: Rakhesh Sasidharan , freebsd-chat From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Hosting an NNTP server Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:53 PM +0530 5/8/01, Rakhesh Sasidharan wrote: > Basically, I want to do something like the NNTP servers on the Net do (get > news feeds from the Net and let people access them), but I have no idea on > what to do or where to start or how things work ... Maybe a link to how > NNTP servers do their job might help ? First thing you should do is read the books _Managing USENET_ by Henry Spencer & David Lawrence (published in 1998 by O'Reilly & Assoc., but no longer in print, see for more information), and _Managing UUCP & USENET_ by Grace Todino & Tim O'Reilly (published in 1992 by O'Reilly & Assoc., but also no longer in print, see for more information). I would encourage you to check out used book stores, online auctions, etc... to find copies of these books. Searching amazon.com, I also find the books _USENET News and Inn_ by Randall L. Else, Trent R. Hein (but not to be published until 2002), _The Usenet Book : Finding, Using, and Surviving Newsgroups on the Internet_ by Bryan Pfaffenberger (published in 1995 by Addison-Wesley), and _Administering Usenet News Servers : A Comprehensive Guide to Planning, Building, and Managing Internet and Intranet News Services_ by Jim McDermott, James E. McDermott, John Phillips (published in 1997 by Addison-Wesley). Unfortunately, all of these books are pretty old (except the one by Else & Hein which hasn't been published yet), and may be less applicable to the modern world. If you can buy only one of these books, I'd suggest _Managing USENET_ by Spencer & Lawrence, since it will likely be the book that was the most useful when it was published (these guys have been materially involved in helping to set the USENET news standards for many years, and are quite authoritative on the material they do cover), and it will probably be the one that has been reduced in value the least since it was published. If you want to learn more about INN (a particular USENET news server), I would suggest starting at . If you want to learn about Diablo (probably one of the most popular alternatives to INN and other news server software, and one that is most closely linked to FreeBSD), I would suggest starting at , which also includes links to the important RFCs to read, etc.... If you want to read about other USENET news servers, start at (a page I used to maintain). Virtually everything else you could want to learn about USENET from online sources will be linked to from the pages underneath . -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 5:42:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C4BC37B423 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 05:42:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f48Cfn125953; Tue, 8 May 2001 14:41:49 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15095.58155.785819.365229@guru.mired.org> References: <15095.58155.785819.365229@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:41:40 +0200 To: Mike Meyer , Rakhesh Sasidharan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Hosting an NNTP server Cc: freebsd-chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:14 AM -0500 5/8/01, Mike Meyer wrote: > While it's possible to get news to your server with the same > mechanism, it sounds like you're planning to get all the news, or > close to that. For that, you're better off getting a feed. That's a > push mechanism, as the feeding server decides which articles to offer > you. You should check with your ISP to see if they offer that service. When contemplating getting a feed, keep in mind that many sites (who may be willing to offer you feeds) may require that you have a fixed IP address that they can enter into the configuration of their server. Indeed, some servers effectively require fixed IP addresses (Diablo certainly doesn't work well when the remote IP address keeps changing). See for the best centralized listing of servers that might be willing to offer you a feed. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 5:56:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 658FC37B423 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 05:56:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f48Cfl125928; Tue, 8 May 2001 14:41:48 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15095.58155.785819.365229@guru.mired.org> References: <15095.58155.785819.365229@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:35:22 +0200 To: Mike Meyer , Rakhesh Sasidharan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Hosting an NNTP server Cc: freebsd-chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:14 AM -0500 5/8/01, Mike Meyer wrote: > BTW, your questions might better fit in -questions than on > -chat. Actually, this question belonged on news.software.nntp, but that's a different matter. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 6:26:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 22A4237B423 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 06:26:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 78136 invoked by uid 100); 8 May 2001 13:26:31 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15095.62470.978304.686969@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 08:26:30 -0500 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Rakhesh Sasidharan , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Hosting an NNTP server In-Reply-To: References: <15095.58155.785819.365229@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles types: > At 7:14 AM -0500 5/8/01, Mike Meyer wrote: > > While it's possible to get news to your server with the same > > mechanism, it sounds like you're planning to get all the news, or > > close to that. For that, you're better off getting a feed. That's a > > push mechanism, as the feeding server decides which articles to offer > > you. You should check with your ISP to see if they offer that service. > When contemplating getting a feed, keep in mind that many sites > (who may be willing to offer you feeds) may require that you have a > fixed IP address that they can enter into the configuration of their > server. Indeed, some servers effectively require fixed IP addresses While we're on the topic of requirements for a feed, the idea of running a full feed over a residential-class broadband connection seems a bit iffy. It has been nearly a decade since I looked at the bandwidth requirements of a full feed, so it may not be as bad as I expect. Brad, what do you think about this? Thanx, http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 6:57:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090C537B422 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 06:57:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f48DuW113523; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:56:32 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15095.62470.978304.686969@guru.mired.org> References: <15095.58155.785819.365229@guru.mired.org> <15095.62470.978304.686969@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 15:55:29 +0200 To: Mike Meyer From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Hosting an NNTP server Cc: Rakhesh Sasidharan , freebsd-chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:26 AM -0500 5/8/01, Mike Meyer wrote: > While we're on the topic of requirements for a feed, the idea of > running a full feed over a residential-class broadband connection > seems a bit iffy. It has been nearly a decade since I looked at the > bandwidth requirements of a full feed, so it may not be as bad as I > expect. An absolutely full feed is running over 250GB of traffic per day, and that would require an average of about 24Mbits/sec bandwidth, and probably would have frequent peaks to at least 36Mbits/sec bandwidth. > Brad, what do you think about this? I don't think you have a snowball's chance in hell of getting that kind of bandwidth crammed into a residential-class broadband connection (typically something like 1Mbit/sec down, a few hundred Kbits/sec up). Even if you had a full Ethernet class (10Mbits/sec) bandwidth available to you, this still wouldn't be enough. Moreover, it would take more than a terabyte of disk storage to spool even just four days worth of news at full volume, and damn, damn few places in this world can afford that kind of money for disk space under any circumstances whatsoever. In fact, I know of only a very few huge commercial USENET news server operations that have anywhere close to that kind of disk space -- I could probably count them all on one hand. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 9:10:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from desh.cse.iitd.ernet.in (mailer.cse.iitd.ac.in [202.141.68.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1CF337B424 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:10:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rakhesh@cse.iitd.ac.in) Received: from cse.iitd.ernet.in (IDENT:root@deskar [10.20.14.30]) by desh.cse.iitd.ernet.in (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f48GI6h09300; Tue, 8 May 2001 21:48:06 +0530 Received: from localhost (csu96154@localhost) by cse.iitd.ernet.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04009; Tue, 8 May 2001 21:48:05 +0530 X-Authentication-Warning: deskar.cse.iitd.ernet.in: csu96154 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 21:48:05 +0530 (IST) From: Rakhesh Sasidharan X-Sender: csu96154@deskar.cse.iitd.ernet.in To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Hosting an NNTP server In-Reply-To: <15095.58155.785819.365229@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > BTW, your questions might better fit in -questions than on > -chat. Sorry; my question was kind of vague and I didn't want to risk sending it to -questions ... that's why. Now that I can ask more specific questions, I shall shift over there. :-) __ Rakhesh To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 9:41:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F5C537B423 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:41:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.28]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA19185; Tue, 8 May 2001 18:41:55 +0200 Received: by zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7F32A14C03; Tue, 8 May 2001 18:41:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 18:41:54 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Trevor Johnson , Robert Clark , Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: vmware anyone? Message-ID: <20010508184154.A29236@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Trevor Johnson , Robert Clark , Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat References: <20010425202447.A441@darkstar.gte.net> <20010426124247.Z16200-100000@blues.jpj.net> <20010426193350.A16407@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Thu, Apr 26, 2001 at 11:43:36PM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Dag-Erling Smorgrav (des@ofug.org): > > Yes, but it still doesn't work. The kernel module is ok, but the > > monitor-code from the plex86 folks does produce a fault in some > > assembler code that is written by hand, and I'm not able to fix that. > Do you have a trace and a listing of the code surrounding the fault? Hi! I tried it several times now. The kernel is hard-locked when that happens, i.e. it won't produce a kernel dump. If I compile a kernel with DDB support, I can do "trace", but only until an exit of a fork() call, so this doesn't help either. I have the assembler in-kernel code, that is executed right after a fault, but manually initialing a kernel break at this point (e.g. by a halt point) immediately reboots the kernel. Note that the said fault is a plex86 specific fault, which happens while monitoring the guest os, and not a FreeBSD kernel fault. Thus I'm unable to find the code surrounding the fault, I'm sorry. Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 9:52:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED2D137B43C for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:52:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f48Gq3O20831; Tue, 8 May 2001 18:52:04 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <15095.58155.785819.365229@guru.mired.org> <15095.62470.978304.686969@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 18:49:49 +0200 To: Mike Meyer From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Hosting an NNTP server Cc: Rakhesh Sasidharan , freebsd-chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:55 PM +0200 5/8/01, Brad Knowles wrote: > An absolutely full feed is running over 250GB of traffic per day, and > that would require an average of about 24Mbits/sec bandwidth, and > probably would have frequent peaks to at least 36Mbits/sec bandwidth. Heck, even a full non-binary feed is 1-2GB/day, and while the bandwidth requirements (average ~200Kbits/sec, probable frequent peaks to ~300Kbits/sec) would easily fit within the limitations of a residential broadband connection, that would still take a significant chunk of the available bandwidth, and if there are daily, weekly, or monthly volume limitations, you could bust those by just taking the news feed. Much better would be to contract out the news spool services, and then run a local news caching solution, so that you only ever pull down articles that are actually read, and the local cache ensures that you don't pull down the same article more than once. If you contracted out the news spool to a site running Diablo and you set up a local Diablo caching reader server, they could give you a header-only feed for the articles in question (so you could build up a complete overview database). That way you'd have a local server with a complete list of what articles are available in what newsgroups, etc... and then you would only pull down those articles which are actually read, and then cache them locally so that they don't need to be pulled down again. IMO, the local Diablo caching reader server is the best combination of running your own server with implementation of local caching to minimize wasted bandwidth. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 10: 9:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-141-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD0237B423 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 10:09:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f48FnCf02868; Tue, 8 May 2001 16:49:12 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:49:12 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Alan Clegg Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Mall and 4.3 Message-ID: <20010508164912.A2807@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20010506124019U.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010507090750.B53760@diskfarm.firehouse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010507090750.B53760@diskfarm.firehouse.net>; from alan@clegg.com on Mon, May 07, 2001 at 09:07:50AM -0400 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 07, 2001 at 09:07:50AM -0400, Alan Clegg wrote: > Unless the network is lying to me again, Robert Watson said:=20 >=20 > > [...] Leigh and I quietly pulled them out from > > behind a RedHat poster, and strategically placed FreeBSD boxes in front= of > > some of the RedHat boxes on the top shelf. >=20 > Glad I'm not the only one that does that. I've "reverse shoplifted" before. Go in to a store with a copy of FreeBSD (helps if it's the 4 disc set, and they sell similarly packaged Linux distros) then go to the counter and try to pay for it. Eventually they'll realise (a) they don't stock it, (b) there's a market for it. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjr4FXcACgkQk6gHZCw343VkNQCgjrPUS8c7Yt+F6kWs+EFJ4uAk dpwAoIrCSFQm9Ok3bEvwheK4qmrI/AqH =wQF/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 10:16:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4963937B423; Tue, 8 May 2001 10:16:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f48HGh128122; Tue, 8 May 2001 19:16:43 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010508164912.A2807@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20010506124019U.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010507090750.B53760@diskfarm.firehouse.net> <20010508164912.A2807@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:16:03 +0200 To: Nik Clayton , Alan Clegg From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Mall and 4.3 Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:49 PM +0100 5/8/01, Nik Clayton wrote: > I've "reverse shoplifted" before. Go in to a store with a copy of > FreeBSD (helps if it's the 4 disc set, and they sell similarly packaged > Linux distros) then go to the counter and try to pay for it. > > Eventually they'll realise (a) they don't stock it, (b) there's a market > for it. ROTFLMAO! Thanks for the laugh! -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 11: 3:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from desh.cse.iitd.ernet.in (mailer.cse.iitd.ac.in [202.141.68.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D52D137B422; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:03:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rakhesh@cse.iitd.ac.in) Received: from cse.iitd.ernet.in (IDENT:root@deskar [10.20.14.30]) by desh.cse.iitd.ernet.in (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f48IBRh11299; Tue, 8 May 2001 23:41:27 +0530 Received: from localhost (csu96154@localhost) by cse.iitd.ernet.in (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA04560; Tue, 8 May 2001 23:41:28 +0530 X-Authentication-Warning: deskar.cse.iitd.ernet.in: csu96154 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 23:41:28 +0530 (IST) From: Rakhesh Sasidharan X-Sender: csu96154@deskar.cse.iitd.ernet.in To: Nik Clayton Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Mall and 4.3 In-Reply-To: <20010508164912.A2807@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-ID: Content-Disposition: INLINE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 8 May 2001, Nik Clayton wrote: > I've "reverse shoplifted" before. Go in to a store with a copy of > FreeBSD (helps if it's the 4 disc set, and they sell similarly packaged > Linux distros) then go to the counter and try to pay for it. > > Eventually they'll realise (a) they don't stock it, (b) there's a market > for it. :-) Wow! __ Rakhesh To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 12:13:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7919637B423 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:13:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with ESMTP for ; id OAA2308817 Tue, 8 May 2001 14:08:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA00771 for FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:14:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:14:23 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Is AIX scheduler/VM similar to FreeBSD? Message-ID: <20010508121423.A756@darkstar.gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone know of a good resource to read up on the scheduler and/or VM of AIX? I keep getting knee-jerk reactions out of the DBAs, and they can't get the Solaris swap model out of their heads. (And I keep thinking in terms of FreeBSD.) Thanks, [RC] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 13: 1:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vimfuego.saarinen.org (saarinen.org [203.79.82.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BB9437B423 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 13:01:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from juha@saarinen.org) Received: from dendennis.saarinen.org ([192.168.1.2] helo=dendennis) by vimfuego.saarinen.org with smtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Red Hack)) id 14xDdH-0003r7-01; Wed, 09 May 2001 07:58:55 +1200 From: "Juha Saarinen" To: "Kris Kennaway" Cc: "Pete French" , , Subject: RE: CFLAGS Optimization Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 07:58:27 +1200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <20010508035522.A93006@xor.obsecurity.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org :: Please enlighten me what it does, then :-) Fux0rs things up even more of course ;-) -- Juha To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 17:39:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aurora.sol.net (aurora.sol.net [206.55.65.76]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6B637B422 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 17:39:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgreco@aurora.sol.net) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by aurora.sol.net (8.9.3/8.9.2/SNNS-1.02) id TAA45893; Tue, 8 May 2001 19:39:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <200105090039.TAA45893@aurora.sol.net> Subject: Re: Hosting an NNTP server To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:39:40 -0500 (CDT) Cc: mwm@mired.org, csu96154@cse.iitd.ernet.in, brad.knowles@skynet.be X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > While we're on the topic of requirements for a feed, the idea of > running a full feed over a residential-class broadband connection > seems a bit iffy. It has been nearly a decade since I looked at the > bandwidth requirements of a full feed, so it may not be as bad as I > expect. Yes, you only need DS3 right now (OC3 by the end of the year, I predict). Traffic volumes are several hundred (200++) GB/day, or about 2.5 megabytes per second. Depends who you talk to and just how full the feed is. :-) OTOH, you could probably do a text-only feed on a pretty decent residential class broadband connection (20-40K/sec). ... JG To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 8 22:16: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61E5F37B422 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 22:16:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r8.bfm.org [216.127.220.104]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 00:20:21 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010509001713.008bad60@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 00:17:13 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: When Sun shines on Microsoft Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://news.excite.com/news/tis/010508/18/sun-microsoft-servers Gosh, I'm glad my web server runs under FreeBSD! Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 9 2:50:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4065A37B422 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 02:50:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f499oEc41908 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 9 May 2001 19:50:14 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 19:50:14 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Smile if you've used ock Message-ID: <20010509195014.J26132@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Having nothing better to do on my holidays, I've been entertaining myself reading /etc/services. There's some wonderful service names, current favourites being 'openport', 'hassle', and 'shrinkwrap'. Then I saw what looks like a typo: cadlock 1000/tcp ock 1000/udp I traced it back through CVS and wound up at RFC1700, where it is listed exactly the same. But it still _looks_ like a typo :-) Generally the same number is assigned for both TCP and UDP even if both are not required by the service, and /etc/services reads very Noah's Ark style, although there are some exceptions. What if it were a typo? Do RFCs have bugs? errata? Or would that be sacrilege? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 9 4:38:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 625A037B422 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 04:38:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f49Bc9R95064 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 13:38:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA94063 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 9 May 2001 13:38:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:38:26 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Laptop recommendations in France / Europe? Message-ID: <20010509133826.I82438@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can anyone suggest a good place, in France or in a neighbouring country, to buy a not too expensive (say, < 10000 FRF / 1500 Euro) laptop/notebook which works with FreeBSD -- or, at the very minimum, with Linux? And preferably without Windows pre-loaded at all, so that I don't pay a microsoft tax? I do see that an Apple iBook is available at around that price. Anyone have experience with running Net/OpenBSD or linux on it? (I'm not keen on Mac OS X, also I'm not sure whether it would be available yet anyway.) Thanks Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 9 5: 9:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E564637B424 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 05:09:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA60898; Wed, 9 May 2001 14:07:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laptop recommendations in France / Europe? References: <20010509133826.I82438@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 May 2001 14:07:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010509133826.I82438@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Can anyone suggest a good place, in France or in a neighbouring > country, to buy a not too expensive (say, < 10000 FRF / 1500 Euro) > laptop/notebook which works with FreeBSD -- or, at the very minimum, > with Linux? And preferably without Windows pre-loaded at all, so that > I don't pay a microsoft tax? La Fnac sells reasonably-priced laptops (several sub-10k models), but I think you'll have a hard time getting one that doesn't have Windows and tons of other shit (Office, Works, Notes or the like) preloaded. If you're in Paris, try the Foire Surcouf (139 av Daumesnil; closest metro station is probably Bercy or Gare de Lyon). It's reputedly the country's largest computer hardware, software and accessory store. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 9 5:28:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BDFE37B424 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f49CSqR00806 ; Wed, 9 May 2001 14:28:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA96433 ; Wed, 9 May 2001 14:29:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:29:09 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laptop recommendations in France / Europe? Message-ID: <20010509142909.L82438@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010509133826.I82438@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Wed, May 09, 2001 at 02:07:10PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on May 9, 2001 at 14:07:10: > La Fnac sells reasonably-priced laptops (several sub-10k models), but > I think you'll have a hard time getting one that doesn't have Windows > and tons of other shit (Office, Works, Notes or the like) preloaded. Yes, indeed. I checked Dell's web page, the Inspiron 2500 looks ok to me but I have to choose not only Windows, but also either MS works or MS office arrgh.... (anyway I'm not sure FreeBSD works on it but it does apparently work on other Inspirons) > If you're in Paris, try the Foire Surcouf (139 av Daumesnil; closest Thanks. I'll check it out... -Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 9 5:52:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailtmp1.registeredsite.com (mailtmp1.registeredsite.com [216.247.127.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D5937B424 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 05:52:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from mail2.registeredsite.com (mail2.registeredsite.com [64.224.9.11]) by mailtmp1.registeredsite.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10447 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:52:26 -0400 Received: from mail.threespace.com (mail.threespace.com [216.247.134.44]) by mail2.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f49Cow322433 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:50:58 -0400 Received: from CX1063714-B.threespace.com [65.14.36.167] by mail.threespace.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id AD2A142600DE; Wed, 09 May 2001 08:50:50 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010509083937.017491f0@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 08:50:43 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: vmware anyone? In-Reply-To: <20010508184154.A29236@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> References: <20010425202447.A441@darkstar.gte.net> <20010426124247.Z16200-100000@blues.jpj.net> <20010426193350.A16407@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Incidentally, since I started this thread a week or so ago, I've had a chance to try VMWare. On a Red Hat Linux 7.1 host, it works pretty well with everything I've thrown at it so far--including Windows 98, Windows 2000, and FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE (though the VMWare web site mentions support only up to 3.1 or so). In fact, setting up FreeBSD networking on the virtual hardware was even easier for me than on my real hardware...go figure. :-/ The one thing that hasn't worked so far is that the virtual system will crash the host OS (Linux) if you try to go full screen with more than a simple VGA display. I think this has something to do with XFree86 4.0+ incompatibilities, and I'm hoping VMWare will resolve that particular issue too through a patch or something. I haven't yet tried running it on a FreeBSD host via the Linux emulation, but I may try that one day if I ever get the disk space for it. I'm also curious to see the Windows 2000-hosted version, since that's what I'm running a lot of the time anyway. And it turns out that there's a substantial educational discount on the Workstation version if you're a student or member of an educational institution or something. Makes it much more palatable to the average joe. If you find yourself rebooting a lot between the OS you want and the OS you need (like me), then it's not a bad investment. --Chip Morton At 12:41 PM 5/8/2001, Alexander Langer wrote: >Thus spake Dag-Erling Smorgrav (des@ofug.org): > > > > Yes, but it still doesn't work. The kernel module is ok, but the > > > monitor-code from the plex86 folks does produce a fault in some > > > assembler code that is written by hand, and I'm not able to fix that. > > Do you have a trace and a listing of the code surrounding the fault? > >Hi! > >I tried it several times now. > >The kernel is hard-locked when that happens, i.e. it won't produce a >kernel dump. > >If I compile a kernel with DDB support, I can do "trace", but only >until an exit of a fork() call, so this doesn't help either. > >I have the assembler in-kernel code, that is executed right after a >fault, but manually initialing a kernel break at this point (e.g. by a >halt point) immediately reboots the kernel. >Note that the said fault is a plex86 specific fault, which happens >while monitoring the guest os, and not a FreeBSD kernel fault. > >Thus I'm unable to find the code surrounding the fault, I'm sorry. > >Alex >-- >cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 9 7:24:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5189F37B422 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 07:24:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA61284; Wed, 9 May 2001 16:22:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laptop recommendations in France / Europe? References: <20010509133826.I82438@lpt.ens.fr> <20010509142909.L82438@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 May 2001 16:22:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010509142909.L82438@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Yes, indeed. I checked Dell's web page, the Inspiron 2500 looks > ok to me but I have to choose not only Windows, but also either MS > works or MS office arrgh.... (anyway I'm not sure FreeBSD works on > it but it does apparently work on other Inspirons) I'd say there's a 90% probability you'll get all the essential components working (that is, everything except the audio DSP and the built-in modem if there is one). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 9 7:34:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9AB137B422 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 07:34:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.28]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA01866; Wed, 9 May 2001 16:34:32 +0200 Received: by zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7E76614C4D; Wed, 9 May 2001 16:34:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 16:34:32 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laptop recommendations in France / Europe? Message-ID: <20010509163432.C95201@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010509133826.I82438@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010509133826.I82438@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Wed, May 09, 2001 at 01:38:26PM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Rahul Siddharthan (rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in): > country, to buy a not too expensive (say, < 10000 FRF / 1500 Euro) In Germany, there are *many* stores that have quite good notebooks for 3000,- DM, which is almost exactly 1500 Euro. They usually have Windows preinstalled, but that's not that bad at all, given the fact that they usually also include a DVD-ROM and a pre-installed DVD-Player :-) I recently bought such a thing and I'm very satisfied with it. However, I had to buy a NIC for it, which were extra 189,- DM. (netgear FA-401-TX, which has problems in -STABLE). Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 9 11: 1:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BDB037B423 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 11:01:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f49HeI100014; Wed, 9 May 2001 19:40:19 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010509133826.I82438@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010509133826.I82438@lpt.ens.fr> Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 19:31:55 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Laptop recommendations in France / Europe? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:38 PM +0200 5/9/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Can anyone suggest a good place, in France or in a neighbouring > country, to buy a not too expensive (say, < 10000 FRF / 1500 Euro) > laptop/notebook which works with FreeBSD -- or, at the very minimum, > with Linux? And preferably without Windows pre-loaded at all, so that > I don't pay a microsoft tax? I don't know if you speak French, or what kind of keyboard you prefer, but keep in mind that each country in Europe typically has a slightly different keyboard layout than all the others. Swiss German is not the same as German German, which is not the same as Netherlands Dutch which may or may not be the same as Belgian Dutch (or French), which probably isn't the same as French French, etc.... I have had an *EXCEPTIONALLY* hard time getting a proper English-language keyboard over here, and I've finally had to settle for an International English model. This is one where the "\" key is not above the "Return" key (as it should be), but is instead between the single/double-quote key and the "Return" key (which is two rows tall). This is one where there is an extra key between the left shift key and the "Z" key, which is where they've stuffed the "~". Meanwhile, where "~" belongs (next to "1" and above the "Tab" key), they've inserted an entirely new and different key that doesn't belong on the keyboard at all (one with the combined +/- symbol, as well as the section symbol). Of course, very few of the non-alphanumeric keys are marked with words (as they should be), and instead have symbols on them, such as an up arrow (for shift). This isn't so much of an issue, until you get to the "Option" and "Command" keys, which have totally bizarre symbols on them, which you end up just having to completely ignore and touch-type instead. If you want a keyboard in English, you may want to look on Tottenham Court Road in London -- that's where you'll find the greatest concentration of computer stores in all of the UK, and perhaps all of Europe. I would encourage you to contact the members of SAGE-WISE (who have their monthly meetings near that area), and they will be able to give you better directions. Alternatively, order the thing online. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 9 13:53:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dell.dannyland.org (dell.dannyland.org [64.81.36.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BBA937B422; Wed, 9 May 2001 13:53:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dannyman@toldme.com) Received: by dell.dannyland.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A1E165BFE; Wed, 9 May 2001 13:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:52:02 -0700 From: dannyman To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: question/rant: upgrade kit for 3.x ports?! Message-ID: <20010509135202.B17000@dell.dannyland.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does someone have the "upgrade your 3.x system so it can still use ports package" available SOMEWHERE? Okay, so I can understand that 3.x "isn't supported" But no upgrade kit for the ports tree? When there USED to be? No old package repositories? What does a person do when they want to reinstall postfix on their 3.5-RELEASE machine? "make world"?! AUGHGHG!!! I have a box that had a screwed up Postfix installation, so I deleted the package, and went to ports to rebuild it, and it tells me I need an upgrade kit, which I remember USED TO BE available, so HALF of my 3.x boxes can still use ports, the other half can't. And now if I want to reinstall Postfix on this machine I get to fetch and build the tarballs myself. Well, except that HALF of my 3.x machines can still use ports and build a package for it. That sucks. Grrr. Thanks, -danny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 9 13:56:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (usr.srcsys.org [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7019C37B423 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 13:56:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 18872 invoked by uid 1000); 9 May 2001 20:53:50 -0000 Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 16:53:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: dannyman Cc: , Subject: Re: question/rant: upgrade kit for 3.x ports?! In-Reply-To: <20010509135202.B17000@dell.dannyland.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Make a package from the port, and install it on the boxes that can't build. What's the problem with doing it that way? -- [ Joseph Mallett ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ Proud {Free,Net}BSD User; (Obj)C(++) Programmer ] [ http://xMach.org ] On Wed, 9 May 2001, dannyman wrote: > Does someone have the "upgrade your 3.x system so it can still use ports > package" available SOMEWHERE? > > Okay, so I can understand that 3.x "isn't supported" > > But no upgrade kit for the ports tree? When there USED to be? > > No old package repositories? > > What does a person do when they want to reinstall postfix on their 3.5-RELEASE > machine? "make world"?! AUGHGHG!!! > > I have a box that had a screwed up Postfix installation, so I deleted the > package, and went to ports to rebuild it, and it tells me I need an upgrade > kit, which I remember USED TO BE available, so HALF of my 3.x boxes can still > use ports, the other half can't. And now if I want to reinstall Postfix on > this machine I get to fetch and build the tarballs myself. > > Well, except that HALF of my 3.x machines can still use ports and build a > package for it. > > That sucks. > > Grrr. > > Thanks, > -danny > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 9 14: 9:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dell.dannyland.org (dell.dannyland.org [64.81.36.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B512637B422; Wed, 9 May 2001 14:09:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dannyman@toldme.com) Received: by dell.dannyland.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 69A2E5C41; Wed, 9 May 2001 14:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:08:38 -0700 From: dannyman To: Joseph Mallett Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: question/rant: upgrade kit for 3.x ports?! Message-ID: <20010509140838.C17000@dell.dannyland.org> References: <20010509135202.B17000@dell.dannyland.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from jmallett@newgold.net on Wed, May 09, 2001 at 04:53:50PM -0400 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 04:53:50PM -0400, Joseph Mallett wrote: > Make a package from the port, and install it on the boxes that can't > build. What's the problem with doing it that way? All my boxes should be able to build. This way, I get to make the package, oh wait, every sub-package dependancy, on ONE 3.5-RELEASE box, and then go back and install the packages on my OTHER 3.5 box, when I should be able to "upgrade" the other 3.5 box to make its own darned port installs in the first place, as it works on the other 3.5 boxes that I installed the "upgrade" package on before it was revoked from www.freebsd.org/ports/ 0-13:43 dannyman@you /usr/ports/mail/postfix> sudo make install Password: ===> postfix-20010228.1 : Your system is too old to use this bsd.port.mk. You need a fresh make world or an upgrade kit. Please go to http://www.FreeBSD.org/ports/ or a mirror site and follow the instructions. I go to http://www.FreeBSD.org/ports/ and I'm told that 3.x is no longer supported. Okay, that's fine with me, but where's the upgrade package that worked to fix my other 3.5-RELEASE boxen? :< -danny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 9 14:45:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88EB37B423; Wed, 9 May 2001 14:45:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f49LjLn44569; Thu, 10 May 2001 07:45:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 07:45:20 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: dannyman Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: question/rant: upgrade kit for 3.x ports?! Message-ID: <20010510074520.G26110@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , dannyman , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010509135202.B17000@dell.dannyland.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010509135202.B17000@dell.dannyland.org>; from dannyman@toldme.com on Wed, May 09, 2001 at 01:52:02PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 01:52:02PM -0700, dannyman wrote: > > Okay, so I can understand that 3.x "isn't supported" > > But no upgrade kit for the ports tree? When there USED to be? See http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=21997 -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 9 17:21: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F1E737B424; Wed, 9 May 2001 17:20:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA04110; Wed, 9 May 2001 17:20:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAMyaa5h; Wed May 9 17:20:39 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA04754; Wed, 9 May 2001 17:26:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105100026.RAA04754@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: question/rant: upgrade kit for 3.x ports?! To: dannyman@toldme.com (dannyman) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 00:24:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jmallett@newgold.net (Joseph Mallett), freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010509140838.C17000@dell.dannyland.org> from "dannyman" at May 09, 2001 02:08:38 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Make a package from the port, and install it on the boxes that can't > > build. What's the problem with doing it that way? > > All my boxes should be able to build. > > This way, I get to make the package, oh wait, every sub-package dependancy, > on ONE 3.5-RELEASE box, and then go back and install the packages on my OTHER > 3.5 box, when I should be able to "upgrade" the other 3.5 box to make its own > darned port installs in the first place, as it works on the other 3.5 boxes > that I installed the "upgrade" package on before it was revoked from > www.freebsd.org/ports/ > > 0-13:43 dannyman@you /usr/ports/mail/postfix> sudo make install > Password: > ===> postfix-20010228.1 : Your system is too old to use this bsd.port.mk. You > need a fresh make world or an upgrade kit. Please go to > http://www.FreeBSD.org/ports/ or a mirror site and follow the instructions. > > I go to http://www.FreeBSD.org/ports/ and I'm told that 3.x is no longer > supported. Okay, that's fine with me, but where's the upgrade package that > worked to fix my other 3.5-RELEASE boxen? :< ------------- SHORT ANSWER ------------- You have shot yourself in the foot, and you need to _manually_ downgrade, and pray you can find the older distribution files which the /usr/ports which matches your OS version _somewhere_, or you must _resign yourself to upgrading_. ------------- LONG ANSWER ------------- What it is saying is that the /usr/ports you installed is newer than the version of the operating system you have installed. You can not do this. The reason you can not do this is that the ports .mk files, which are in /usr/ports/Mk/, _MUST_ match your system .mk files, which are in /usr/share/mk. If you were to look at /usr/ports/Mk/bsd.port.mk in "vi", and use the command "/^IGNORE=", you will see the exact line which prohibits your make from working. You could replace you /usr/share/mk files... _IF_ you were willing to never be able to build another kernel or anything else in /usr/src on that system! What you _need_ to do is reinstall a matching version of /usr/ports on your system, _OR_ to _fully upgrade_ your system to a newer (supported) version, so that /usr/ports/Mk and /usr/share/mk will _once again match, like they used to when you first installed_. The easiest way to fix your system would probably be to (on the broken system): cd /usr rm -rf ports Then go to a system _of the same version_ where the build _works_, and: cd /tmp tar czf ports.tar.gz /usr/ports FTP this new file over to the broken system (e.g. in /tmp), and then do (again on the broken system): cd / tar xzf /tmp/ports.tar.gz NOTE: One _very_ common reason that _old_ machines have ports which work on _one_ of them, but _not_ on another, is that the ports system _caches_ distribution files, and the _broken_ machine doesn't have a cached copy of the distribution file, but the _working_ machine does. If you follow the process outlined above, it will _also_ copy the cached copy of the distribution file, and things will work on the _broken_ machine as well, after you have unpacked the /usr/ports from the _working_ machine. NOTE!: The main reason that ports are not supported on older machines is that the people who created the software have moved onto newer versions, but there is no ports maintainer among the FreeBSD ports maintainers for the older versions of FreeBSD, so there is _no_ "new" /usr/ports for that version of FreeBSD which references the _newer_ distribution files, which the authors of those files have changed out from under the FreeBSD ports system (usually by releasing a new version of their software, and deleting the old version from their FTP site, instead of archiving it for all eternity, so that people who refuse to upgrade their OS will not suffer). NOTE!!: There is _no way in hell_ you can use a newer /usr/ports on an older machine. Ever. Forget about trying. The message you got when you tried should probably have been _MUCH_ more strongly worded! You will _BREAK_ your ability to use /usr/ports _at all_ if you unpack a new version of a mismatched /usr/ports onto an old system. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 9 18: 3: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dell.dannyland.org (dell.dannyland.org [64.81.36.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBA4937B422; Wed, 9 May 2001 18:02:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dannyman@toldme.com) Received: by dell.dannyland.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id EE7505BFE; Wed, 9 May 2001 18:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 18:01:54 -0700 From: dannyman To: Terry Lambert Cc: Joseph Mallett , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: (long) upgrade kit for 3.x ports?! Message-ID: <20010509180154.E17000@dell.dannyland.org> Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010509140838.C17000@dell.dannyland.org> <200105100026.RAA04754@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200105100026.RAA04754@usr06.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, May 10, 2001 at 12:24:44AM +0000 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 12:24:44AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: [...] > You have shot yourself in the foot, and you need to _manually_ > downgrade, and pray you can find the older distribution files > which the /usr/ports which matches your OS version _somewhere_, > or you must _resign yourself to upgrading_. I will replace the box with a newer version eventually. For now, I find it suffices to place this in /usr/ports/Mk/bsd.port.mk: BSDPORTMKVERSION= 350000 Thank you for the tip. > Then go to a system _of the same version_ where the build _works_, > and: > > cd /tmp > tar czf ports.tar.gz /usr/ports Systems are same version, but the working system has a custom kernel, which gives it a higher OSVERSION. I downgraded to the 350000 of the 3.5-RELEASE GENERIC kernel. > NOTE: One _very_ common reason that _old_ machines have ports > which work on _one_ of them, but _not_ on another, is > that the ports system _caches_ distribution files, and > the _broken_ machine doesn't have a cached copy of the > distribution file, but the _working_ machine does. If > you follow the process outlined above, it will _also_ > copy the cached copy of the distribution file, and things > will work on the _broken_ machine as well, after you > have unpacked the /usr/ports from the _working_ machine. I mount ports over NFS. :) > NOTE!: The main reason that ports are not supported on older > machines is that the people who created the software > have moved onto newer versions, but there is no ports > maintainer among the FreeBSD ports maintainers for the > older versions of FreeBSD, so there is _no_ "new" > /usr/ports for that version of FreeBSD which references > the _newer_ distribution files, which the authors of > those files have changed out from under the FreeBSD ports > system (usually by releasing a new version of their > software, and deleting the old version from their FTP > site, instead of archiving it for all eternity, so that > people who refuse to upgrade their OS will not suffer). And yet, the current Postfix port has: replace: .if ${OSVERSION} >= 400014 @${ECHO_MSG} "===> Activating postfix in /etc/mail/mailer.conf" [...] .else @${ECHO_MSG} "===> Replacing sendmail" How convenient that the Postfix port does not go out of its way to remove compatability logic explicitly added for what is by now an "unsupported" version of FreeBSD, even though the ports tree REFUSES to be compatible with said version of FreeBSD. How convenient that just a few months ago I was able to download an upgrade kit for 3.5-RELEASE to use then-current ports. > NOTE!!: There is _no way in hell_ you can use a newer /usr/ports > on an older machine. Ever. Forget about trying. The > message you got when you tried should probably have been > _MUCH_ more strongly worded! You will _BREAK_ your > ability to use /usr/ports _at all_ if you unpack a new > version of a mismatched /usr/ports onto an old system. California is a far better place than hell, I guess, because I use ports successfully all of the time! , I have used bleeding-edge ports tree on truly ancient boxen for years. Over time, more and more ports simply fail to compile, and I am reminded that maybe just maybe I should upgrade my ancient machine. The beauty of the ports system is its flexibility. You're freaking out about me using 4.x ports on a 3.5 box? I'm told that you can use the NetBSD ports true to build things for Solaris! That we don't offer an upgrade kit, or at least simple "kludge /usr/ports/Mk/bsd.port.mk BSDPORTMKVERSION= to match the output of 'sysctl -n kern.osreldate' and pray that some errant port doesn't destroy your system in some new and interesting way" pointer on http://www.FreeBSD.org/ports/ just ... frustrates me. I mean, 3.5 was released LESS THAN ONE YEAR AGO and now I am FORCED TO UPGRADE if I want to install a single piece of software?! That strikes me as pointlessly fascist. *sigh* And while I am griping about my favorite OS, why do I have to http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/faq/book.html#ADD-PTY instead of just frobbing some sysctl knob? :( -danny -- http://dannyman.toldme.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 0: 7: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.thpoon.com (cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com [24.42.106.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 32A1237B424 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 00:07:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antipode@thpoon.com) Received: (qmail 15371 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 07:06:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tea.thpoon.com) (qmailr@192.168.1.2) by cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com with SMTP; 10 May 2001 07:06:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 863 invoked by uid 1000); 10 May 2001 07:06:58 -0000 To: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. References: <15093.37891.477055.231085@guru.mired.org> From: Arcady Genkin X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 10 May 2001 03:06:58 -0400 In-Reply-To: <15093.37891.477055.231085@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: <877kzpvg19.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Copyleft) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A month or so ago I read in comp.risks a message from a guy, who had a home computer that was the primary DNS server for his domain. So he wrote a message to some popular moderated mailing list. He claims that once the moderator approved his message, and it started to go out to all the subscribers, their mail servers started resolving his domain name (which wasn't in anybody's cache), to the point that his Pentium (or whatever) computer could not handle it and crashed a few times. Would anybody care to comment on this? Anyone running their own primary DNS off a home computer on a cable modem/DSL line? -- Arcady Genkin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 4:30:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A9BC37B422 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 04:30:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4ABTx121825; Thu, 10 May 2001 13:29:59 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <877kzpvg19.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> References: <15093.37891.477055.231085@guru.mired.org> <877kzpvg19.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 13:28:32 +0200 To: Arcady Genkin , freebsd-chat From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:06 AM -0400 5/10/01, Arcady Genkin wrote: > A month or so ago I read in comp.risks a message from a guy, who had a > home computer that was the primary DNS server for his domain. So he > wrote a message to some popular moderated mailing list. He claims > that once the moderator approved his message, and it started to go out > to all the subscribers, their mail servers started resolving his domain > name (which wasn't in anybody's cache), to the point that his Pentium > (or whatever) computer could not handle it and crashed a few times. If he was running an old enough version of BIND, and a slow enough machine (with an old enough OS), I could see this as being a problem -- but only if he was stupid and did not have a proper secondary configured for his domain. Otherwise, people should have been able to figure out relatively quickly that his secondary (presumably his ISP, or a service like secondary.com) is responding much, much faster to queries than his server is (and should naturally get at least half the queries even if they don't know anything else at all about his domain or his nameservers), and take that load off his machine. > Would anybody care to comment on this? Anyone running their own > primary DNS off a home computer on a cable modem/DSL line? Sorry, IMO this is an example of a confluence of several poor design/implementation decisions, and fixing any one of the problems in question would be sufficient to prevent the outcome that he saw. Poor planning and all that.... -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 5:11: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-32.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A1E37B422; Thu, 10 May 2001 05:10:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A396466C04; Thu, 10 May 2001 05:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 05:10:55 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Terry Lambert , Joseph Mallett , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (long) upgrade kit for 3.x ports?! Message-ID: <20010510051055.A2395@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010509140838.C17000@dell.dannyland.org> <200105100026.RAA04754@usr06.primenet.com> <20010509180154.E17000@dell.dannyland.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wac7ysb48OaltWcw" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010509180154.E17000@dell.dannyland.org>; from dannyman@toldme.com on Wed, May 09, 2001 at 06:01:54PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --wac7ysb48OaltWcw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 06:01:54PM -0700, dannyman wrote: > I mean, 3.5 was released LESS THAN ONE YEAR AGO and now I am FORCED > TO UPGRADE if I want to install a single piece of software?! That > strikes me as pointlessly fascist. You've apparently forgotten that you're getting all of this for free, and so it's quite rude to complain that the volunteers aren't working hard enough for you. The polite thing to do here is either: a) Stop complaining and just live with it b) Lift a finger yourself to fix it. Thanks. Kris --wac7ysb48OaltWcw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6+oVPWry0BWjoQKURAiCqAKDikdzRvYj07BJVGyL8/1TEsmRTIwCePDrf CAortmqg6iK5B0pIbQnV8P0= =vGIQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wac7ysb48OaltWcw-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 5:24:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92BE37B422; Thu, 10 May 2001 05:24:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4ACOdO24363; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:24:39 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010509180154.E17000@dell.dannyland.org> References: <20010509140838.C17000@dell.dannyland.org> <200105100026.RAA04754@usr06.primenet.com> <20010509180154.E17000@dell.dannyland.org> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:23:22 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: (long) upgrade kit for 3.x ports?! Cc: Joseph Mallett , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dannyman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:01 PM -0700 5/9/01, dannyman wrote: > How convenient that the Postfix port does not go out of its way to remove > compatability logic explicitly added for what is by now an "unsupported" > version of FreeBSD, even though the ports tree REFUSES to be compatible with > said version of FreeBSD. Each port maintainer is free to make whatever changes they want in the way they support their port, and for which version of which OS. Just because the postfix port does something you do (or do not) like, does not mean that all the other 5000+ ports have to do (or must not do) the same. > , I have used bleeding-edge ports tree on truly ancient boxen for years. And they guy who had a German 75mm mortar shell left over from WWII and was using it as a sword sharpener every day for fifty-five years didn't have any problems, until the day it blew up on him. Just because you do something incredibly stupid and get away with it, doesn't mean that the thing isn't incredibly stupid to begin with. > I mean, 3.5 was released LESS THAN ONE YEAR AGO and now I am FORCED TO > UPGRADE if I want to install a single piece of software?! That strikes me as > pointlessly fascist. Repeat after me: Ports must be no later than OS. Ports must be no later than OS. Ports must be no later than OS. Now, if you want to upgrade your version of /usr/ports on a daily basis, I would suggest that you also upgrade the OS on a daily basis, so that they stay in sync. Otherwise, you get what you ask for. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 5:25:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D683737B422; Thu, 10 May 2001 05:25:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.28]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA18687; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:25:23 +0200 Received: by zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0C60814C94; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:25:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:25:22 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , Joseph Mallett , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (long) upgrade kit for 3.x ports?! Message-ID: <20010510142522.A7072@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> References: <20010509140838.C17000@dell.dannyland.org> <200105100026.RAA04754@usr06.primenet.com> <20010509180154.E17000@dell.dannyland.org> <20010510051055.A2395@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/04w6evG8XlLl3ft" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010510051055.A2395@xor.obsecurity.org>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Thu, May 10, 2001 at 05:10:55AM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --/04w6evG8XlLl3ft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Thus spake Kris Kennaway (kris@obsecurity.org): > b) Lift a finger yourself to fix it. BTW, IIRC the correct fix is to install a new set of the pkg_tools (for example from the RELENG_4 tree) and raise the version number of /var/db/port.mkversion to the needed value. I can't remember any other updates that have made inbetween that are important. you also could back out the part of rev. 1.361 this logfile refers to: date: 2001/01/16 09:25:16; author: asami; state: Exp; lines: +22 -2 (1) Add PKGORIGIN support. Bump BSDPORTMKVERSION to reflect it. Submitted by: sobomax (that is a change of two lines; remember that this is a hack). I myself did the first one for my 4.0-CURRENT machine which I didn't want to reboot. It worked flawlessly (well, you also have to update a lib, can't remember which one, but this works flawlessly as well). Alex --/04w6evG8XlLl3ft Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.3 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQEVAwUBOvqIsbRIIUSeqRcRAQFDcAf+L5Y89A9ZmPhT8KU4JqRmj/n6AhjCzcVe TqfZcMaq3nc++Q+IKjmul7OuFiPBI9vU+AmsgWRgHIERaklGYLyILOe6suxrQec4 ihwEUlPXURylCYM3GmTm8wJx3pICbaSC1WF541jgD34JneqNwR30rWdlqG6T+/6f rOnK88RpTvIvyzTTwc0Oy4mnLNgkhYP/cPGM9nWtpqRs7iL3HG2Wt4G3/oNj8AHw 3p2V1Ps53b62iiqsPDICUXmYyyV7uM/LoORS7U+ETa8uoNWT/xN2YFdOO0+eiGDf BGYrZhXtB6kN5+MO144Bka9ZgKRuaPaoMnr20R5DZYuwpejuGs6mRQ== =PElJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/04w6evG8XlLl3ft-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 5:32:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 100B937B423 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 05:32:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 38232 invoked by uid 100); 10 May 2001 12:32:21 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15098.35413.109238.930161@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 07:32:21 -0500 To: Arcady Genkin Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. In-Reply-To: <877kzpvg19.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> References: <15093.37891.477055.231085@guru.mired.org> <877kzpvg19.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arcady Genkin types: > A month or so ago I read in comp.risks a message from a guy, who had a > home computer that was the primary DNS server for his domain. So he > wrote a message to some popular moderated mailing list. He claims > that once the moderator approved his message, and it started to go out > to all the subscribers, their mail servers started resolving his domain > name (which wasn't in anybody's cache), to the point that his Pentium > (or whatever) computer could not handle it and crashed a few times. > > Would anybody care to comment on this? Anyone running their own > primary DNS off a home computer on a cable modem/DSL line? I've done that, but I set things up so that I didn't get any DNS queries over the DSL line. My ISP ran secondaries from my primary, and I only listed my ISPs dns servers with the NIC. These days, there are better alternatives - check the list archives for a discussion of the issues. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 6:36:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFE7E37B423 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 06:36:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4ADa6V48208; Thu, 10 May 2001 23:36:06 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 23:36:06 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Mike Meyer Cc: Arcady Genkin , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. Message-ID: <20010510233606.L26132@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Mike Meyer , Arcady Genkin , freebsd-chat References: <15093.37891.477055.231085@guru.mired.org> <877kzpvg19.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> <15098.35413.109238.930161@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15098.35413.109238.930161@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Thu, May 10, 2001 at 07:32:21AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 07:32:21AM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > Arcady Genkin types: > > A month or so ago I read in comp.risks a message from a guy, who had a > > home computer that was the primary DNS server for his domain. So he > > wrote a message to some popular moderated mailing list. He claims > > that once the moderator approved his message, and it started to go out > > to all the subscribers, their mail servers started resolving his domain > > name (which wasn't in anybody's cache), to the point that his Pentium > > (or whatever) computer could not handle it and crashed a few times. Is this meant to imply not powerful enough? Someone had better remind me not to buy a pentium :-) > > Would anybody care to comment on this? Anyone running their own > > primary DNS off a home computer on a cable modem/DSL line? > > I've done that, but I set things up so that I didn't get any DNS > queries over the DSL line. My ISP ran secondaries from my primary, and > I only listed my ISPs dns servers with the NIC. Hmmm *shrug* I've done nothing special here with a similar setup, except that I'm running DNS for a few domains and sending mail out from users here to about 60-70 mailing lists. The machine has never been deluged by DNS requests in over 3 years of operation, even when adding new domains. Maybe whatever happened to him could not happen to me? Luck? Or maybe it was the robustness of my hardware? No crummy little pentium, this was a 386 with a whopping 8MB RAM, a 28.8 modem and a 100 decibel SCSI, decommissioned only two weeks ago with a senile cmos. Of course YMMV. It often amazes me that people who use a good OS expect so little of their computers. There are dangers on the 'net now that didn't exist ten years ago (which could be this bloke's problem), but apart from that we're basically doing the same things that we were doing back then on 386s. These days we're demanding excess power to throw at every job, instead of using our own tools and talents to coax out the machine's full natural beauty of performance. I used to think that's what using unix was all about. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 6:44:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0D77A37B422 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 06:44:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 40065 invoked by uid 100); 10 May 2001 13:44:13 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15098.39725.503828.863922@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 08:44:13 -0500 To: Sue Blake Cc: Arcady Genkin , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. In-Reply-To: <20010510233606.L26132@welearn.com.au> References: <15093.37891.477055.231085@guru.mired.org> <877kzpvg19.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> <15098.35413.109238.930161@guru.mired.org> <20010510233606.L26132@welearn.com.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake types: > On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 07:32:21AM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > Would anybody care to comment on this? Anyone running their own > > > primary DNS off a home computer on a cable modem/DSL line? > > > > I've done that, but I set things up so that I didn't get any DNS > > queries over the DSL line. My ISP ran secondaries from my primary, and > > I only listed my ISPs dns servers with the NIC. [...] > It often amazes me that people who use a good OS expect so little of > their computers. My motivation wasn't because I expected problems with my computer. Nuts, I ran the distribution for what was - at the time - the sixth most popular web browser in the world off a 25MHz '030. DNS was running on a '486; there was no way it was going to collapse on me. I had that DNS setup because my ISP had a bandwidth cap, and usage charges if I went beyond it. DNS queries for my domains on their servers didn't count against the cap; queries to my servers did. I was just being cheapXXXXXX frugal. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 6:57:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D2237B422 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 06:57:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14xqwF-000BVG-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:57:07 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4ADv7R92634 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:57:07 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:57:06 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: workstation application question Message-ID: <20010510145706.B92417@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just read recently that Xerox bought a Sun Blade for printer driver development. Why would they use a Sun instead of a PC? Jonathon -- The beaten path is for the beaten man. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 6:58: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4241237B424 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 06:57:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4ADvwA48319; Thu, 10 May 2001 23:57:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 23:57:58 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Mike Meyer Cc: Arcady Genkin , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. Message-ID: <20010510235758.N26132@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Mike Meyer , Arcady Genkin , freebsd-chat References: <15093.37891.477055.231085@guru.mired.org> <877kzpvg19.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> <15098.35413.109238.930161@guru.mired.org> <20010510233606.L26132@welearn.com.au> <15098.39725.503828.863922@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15098.39725.503828.863922@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Thu, May 10, 2001 at 08:44:13AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 08:44:13AM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > Sue Blake types: > > On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 07:32:21AM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > > Would anybody care to comment on this? Anyone running their own > > > > primary DNS off a home computer on a cable modem/DSL line? > > > > > > I've done that, but I set things up so that I didn't get any DNS > > > queries over the DSL line. My ISP ran secondaries from my primary, and > > > I only listed my ISPs dns servers with the NIC. > [...] > > It often amazes me that people who use a good OS expect so little of > > their computers. > > My motivation wasn't because I expected problems with my > computer. Nuts, I ran the distribution for what was - at the time - > the sixth most popular web browser in the world off a 25MHz '030. DNS > was running on a '486; there was no way it was going to collapse on > me. > > I had that DNS setup because my ISP had a bandwidth cap, and usage > charges if I went beyond it. DNS queries for my domains on their > servers didn't count against the cap; queries to my servers did. > > I was just being cheapXXXXXX frugal. Now why didn't I think of that? I pay through the nose for each byte, but I've never thought of DNS queries as being worth counting. Maybe it's time to do some more calcs. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 7: 4:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2773B37B422 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 07:04:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4AE4ER40142 ; Thu, 10 May 2001 16:04:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id QAA53831 ; Thu, 10 May 2001 16:04:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:04:33 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laptop recommendations in France / Europe? Message-ID: <20010510160433.A52244@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010509133826.I82438@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Wed, May 09, 2001 at 07:31:55PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on May 9, 2001 at 19:31:55: > > I don't know if you speak French, or what kind of keyboard you > prefer, but keep in mind that each country in Europe typically has a I definitely want a US keyboard layout... at worst, UK. It seems possible to specify this when ordering online. I haven't had the time to check out a real shop yet; will do so today or tomorrow... I'm pretty thankful that, where I work at present, all the keyboards have the US layout... > If you want a keyboard in English, you may want to look on > Tottenham Court Road in London -- that's where you'll find the > greatest concentration of computer stores in all of the UK, and I'll probably not be going to England any time soon, and anyway I've heard that things are pretty expensive there... but I may travel a bit around other countries in the summer, and basically any schengen country is a possibility. > Alternatively, order the thing online. Will probably do that if I find no better option. Thanks Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 7: 5:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F40CE37B423 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 07:05:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 40680 invoked by uid 100); 10 May 2001 14:05:30 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15098.41002.301273.568368@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:05:30 -0500 To: Sue Blake Cc: Arcady Genkin , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. In-Reply-To: <20010510235758.N26132@welearn.com.au> References: <15093.37891.477055.231085@guru.mired.org> <877kzpvg19.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> <15098.35413.109238.930161@guru.mired.org> <20010510233606.L26132@welearn.com.au> <15098.39725.503828.863922@guru.mired.org> <20010510235758.N26132@welearn.com.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake types: > On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 08:44:13AM -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: > > I had that DNS setup because my ISP had a bandwidth cap, and usage > > charges if I went beyond it. DNS queries for my domains on their > > servers didn't count against the cap; queries to my servers did. > > > > I was just being cheapXXXXXX frugal. > > Now why didn't I think of that? I pay through the nose for each byte, > but I've never thought of DNS queries as being worth counting. > Maybe it's time to do some more calcs. If you actually do the calculation, I'd be interested in the results. I never bothered to figure out if the zone transfers were more bytes than the queries would have been. I knew they were fixed at a fraction of a percent of the cap, which made them neglible. Handling DNS queries myself wouldn't be predictable, and I figured that other usage being high would mean the DNS queries would be high as well. That meant they would contribute the most when it would cost me the most, and that was the situation I was avoiding. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 7: 6:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D4A637B423 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 07:06:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.28]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA22775 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 16:06:38 +0200 Received: by zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3C8FE14C94; Thu, 10 May 2001 16:06:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:06:35 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Developers Picture Gallery - status? Message-ID: <20010510160635.A1235@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey folks! Recently there have been plans to create a committers picture gallery. I remember something like "place a picture named youraccount.jpg in your homedir, and a script will collect it and ...". What happened to that idea? Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 9:20: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18EA037B422 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:20:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4AGHo126000; Thu, 10 May 2001 18:17:51 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010510145706.B92417@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010510145706.B92417@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 18:00:43 +0200 To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: workstation application question Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:57 PM +0100 5/10/01, j mckitrick wrote: > I just read recently that Xerox bought a Sun Blade for printer driver > development. Why would they use a Sun instead of a PC? Because all the new Xerox printers use Sun workstations as controllers? I think that they started doing this a number of years ago, back when they ported almost all of the Xerox desktop applications over to SunOS from their proprietary OS that had been developed in-house (starting with the work at PARC back in the 1960s). I seem to vaguely recall administering a network of those bloody Xerox boxes for the gov't many years ago, but for the life of me, now I can't remember what they were called. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 9:20:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0C3437B422 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:20:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4AGHr126025; Thu, 10 May 2001 18:17:53 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010510160433.A52244@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010509133826.I82438@lpt.ens.fr> <20010510160433.A52244@lpt.ens.fr> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 18:17:07 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Laptop recommendations in France / Europe? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:04 PM +0200 5/10/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I'll probably not be going to England any time soon, and anyway I've > heard that things are pretty expensive there... but I may travel a bit > around other countries in the summer, and basically any schengen > country is a possibility. If you can get to Paris, you can get to London in just another three hours via Eurostar. My wife and I do it all the time -- it's much better than the plane. Of course, the UK is not a Schengen country, there's no doubt about that. I've had my own concerns about going through there as much as we do, but it hasn't caused any problems for us yet. However, I believe Ireland might be a Schengen country, so you should check that out. Short of being able to go to the UK or ordering the thing online, it hurts me to say it, but Belgium is probably your next most English-friendly country. They've got a 40% ex-pat population in Brussels, and a 20% ex-pat population throughout the country, and most stores I've gone into are able to order an English-language keyboard if you specify that before obtaining the model. Otherwise, you have to go through the kind of hell I did -- where you buy the last remaining PowerBook G3 laptop available in any store in the country, but it has a Belgian AZERTY keyboard, and they have to search all over creation and use all their back-door contacts to get a replacement keyboard, without going through the normal "Send it back to Apple" bullshit. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 9:37:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3D1037B422 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:37:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@heorot.1nova.com) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9118D18D6; Wed, 9 May 2001 09:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8854018D4; Wed, 9 May 2001 09:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:57:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: Arcady Genkin Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Hosting my own domain. In-Reply-To: <877kzpvg19.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Would anybody care to comment on this? Anyone running their own > primary DNS off a home computer on a cable modem/DSL line? Must have been using Windows.... :) I'm running primary DNS of another person's DSL line and he's not having any problems.... Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 10:15:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5FA037B422 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 10:15:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14xu2E-0004p6-00; Thu, 10 May 2001 18:15:30 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4AHFTA97748; Thu, 10 May 2001 18:15:29 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 18:15:29 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: workstation application question Message-ID: <20010510181529.A97681@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010510145706.B92417@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Thu, May 10, 2001 at 06:00:43PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 06:00:43PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: | At 2:57 PM +0100 5/10/01, j mckitrick wrote: | | > I just read recently that Xerox bought a Sun Blade for printer driver | > development. Why would they use a Sun instead of a PC? | | Because all the new Xerox printers use Sun workstations as | controllers? I think that they started doing this a number of years So if you buy a Xerox printer, you have to pay for a sun workstation as well? That seems kind of odd, not to mention expensive. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 10:56: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490F737B424 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 10:55:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 14xuf7-000CH4-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 18:55:41 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4AHtBk98697 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 May 2001 18:55:11 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 18:55:10 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: beowulf, bsd, and linux (flamebait) Message-ID: <20010510185510.A98528@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was doing research for a project on distributed computing and found this: One person in the audience asked why Donald used Linux as the kernel for building up his Beowulf project instead of one of the BSD kernels. Donald had an interesting answer to that question. First off, the BSD kernels were not as stable as Linux, back when he started working on his project. He then proceeded to complain that working with the BSD developers was very difficult. They tend to hide the development process thus making it harder to contribute the needed upgrades. (Remember that Donald had to work with the internal data structures of the kernel in order to make his project scale.) He then said that these BSD developers had very large egos. "Their ego's would fill this room" he said, thus implying the difficulty of working with them. He then went on to say that he was quite able to work with Linus. Linus was a laid back guy. Ouch. Jonathon -- The beaten path is for the beaten man. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 11:16:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05CB37B423 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 11:16:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4AIEo107885; Thu, 10 May 2001 20:14:50 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010510181529.A97681@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010510145706.B92417@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010510181529.A97681@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 20:00:10 +0200 To: j mckitrick From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: workstation application question Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:15 PM +0100 5/10/01, j mckitrick wrote: > So if you buy a Xerox printer, you have to pay for a sun workstation as > well? That seems kind of odd, not to mention expensive. Maybe they don't use Suns for the low-end printers, but the high-end ones certainly do (and they're totally separate boxes which either sit on top of, or next to the printer that they are controlling). However, that's included as part of the price. When we got one, I groaned that this would be yet another Sun I'd be responsible for managing, but so far as I can tell, no administration was ever actually done to it by anyone, and it was probably completely and totally wide-open as far as security (or lack thereof ;-) was concerned -- just waiting to be r00ted as soon as someone could get packets routed to the damn thing. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 11:28:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D8237B422 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 11:28:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@root.com) Received: (from dg@localhost) by root.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f4AILUM31099; Thu, 10 May 2001 11:21:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:21:30 -0700 From: David Greenman To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: beowulf, bsd, and linux (flamebait) Message-ID: <20010510112130.N19893@nexus.root.com> References: <20010510185510.A98528@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20010510185510.A98528@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Thu, May 10, 2001 at 06:55:10PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >I was doing research for a project on distributed computing and found this: > >One person in the audience asked why Donald used Linux as the kernel for >building up his Beowulf project instead of one of the BSD kernels. Donald >had an interesting answer to that question. First off, the BSD kernels were >not as stable as Linux, back when he started working on his project. He then >proceeded to complain that working with the BSD developers was very >difficult. They tend to hide the development process thus making it harder >to contribute the needed upgrades. (Remember that Donald had to work with >the internal data structures of the kernel in order to make his project >scale.) He then said that these BSD developers had very large egos. "Their >ego's would fill this room" he said, thus implying the difficulty of working >with them. He then went on to say that he was quite able to work with Linus. >Linus was a laid back guy. > >Ouch. We need a freebsd-humor list for messages like this. -DG David Greenman Co-founder, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org President, TeraSolutions, Inc. - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 11:46:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0F0537B422 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 11:46:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4AIhY300102; Thu, 10 May 2001 11:43:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: beowulf, bsd, and linux (flamebait) In-Reply-To: <20010510185510.A98528@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010510185510.A98528@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010510114334G.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:43:34 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 46 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't know why this rates an "ouch", it's just one guy's opinion and a not very objective or well-supported one at that. I'd say the BSD projects are more than open when compared to linux, and I'd prefer to have a single CVS respository to go check things out of and compare things to than try and follow linux's "here's a tarball.. here's another tarball... hey, how about another tarball.. [repeat until insane]" approach. As to egos, I know Linus pretty well and while I've always managed to get along with him, you'd have to be blind, deaf and dumb to fail to notice that his ego is also of fairly stellar proportions. :) I think this is a case of selective myopia where Donald's observations are concerned. - Jordan From: j mckitrick Subject: beowulf, bsd, and linux (flamebait) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 18:55:10 +0100 > > I was doing research for a project on distributed computing and found this: > > One person in the audience asked why Donald used Linux as the kernel for > building up his Beowulf project instead of one of the BSD kernels. Donald > had an interesting answer to that question. First off, the BSD kernels were > not as stable as Linux, back when he started working on his project. He then > proceeded to complain that working with the BSD developers was very > difficult. They tend to hide the development process thus making it harder > to contribute the needed upgrades. (Remember that Donald had to work with > the internal data structures of the kernel in order to make his project > scale.) He then said that these BSD developers had very large egos. "Their > ego's would fill this room" he said, thus implying the difficulty of working > with them. He then went on to say that he was quite able to work with Linus. > Linus was a laid back guy. > > Ouch. > > Jonathon > -- > The beaten path is for the beaten man. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 13: 6:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pc89225.stofanet.dk (pc89225.stofanet.dk [212.10.22.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A971A37B422 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 13:06:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from morten@hotpost.dk) Received: (from morten@localhost) by pc89225.stofanet.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) id WAA02413 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 10 May 2001 22:06:26 +0200 From: morten@hotpost.dk Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:06:26 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: workstation application question Message-ID: <20010510220626.A2404@hotpost.dk> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010510145706.B92417@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010510181529.A97681@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Thu, May 10, 2001 at 08:00:10PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10, maj, 2001 at 08:00:10 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 6:15 PM +0100 5/10/01, j mckitrick wrote: > > > So if you buy a Xerox printer, you have to pay for a sun workstation as > > well? That seems kind of odd, not to mention expensive. > > Maybe they don't use Suns for the low-end printers, but the > high-end ones certainly do (and they're totally separate boxes which > either sit on top of, or next to the printer that they are > controlling). However, that's included as part of the price. > > When we got one, I groaned that this would be yet another Sun I'd > be responsible for managing, but so far as I can tell, no > administration was ever actually done to it by anyone, and it was > probably completely and totally wide-open as far as security (or lack > thereof ;-) was concerned -- just waiting to be r00ted as soon as > someone could get packets routed to the damn thing. I heard about a printer somewhere that turned out to be a very active warez ftp site, it had a sun OS on it, not sure whether it was a Xerox model though. Nobody had ever thought of checking it ... -- lynx -source http://home1.stofanet.dk/liebach/pgpkey.html | gpg --import - UNIX, reach out and grep someone! 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------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 13:45: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C16C37B422 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 13:44:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1470"@[136.142.21.40]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K3EM8XNCDW004BTH@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 10 May 2001 16:44:57 EDT Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:50:06 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: beowulf, bsd, and linux (flamebait) To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3AFAFEFE.5F9ABF58@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010510185510.A98528@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org fwiw, I talked with the project leader of MOSIX when it was only ported to BSDI. We talked fairly long about this... Factor's in favor of BSD: * Better structured development, no "let's rewrite the kernel today" or "who cares about backward compatibility". * Better networking stack, with proven performance. * Well designed kernel (well...at least designed). * License Factors against BSD: * Less commercial tools available * Less known when asked to the common people. His group then chose Linux for only one reason: bigger userbase..more possible funding for future projects. He then quoted a phrase (in spanish!) that I won't repeat here...the only thing clear was that he didn't like linux but everyone else used it. Nowadays I think they probably took the right choice; they had licensing clashes at first but they seem happy with Linux. I doubt they are making much money from it, and I doubt they have much contact with Linus, but they have never discussed abandoning it, afaik. FreeBSD has advanced on it's own in important ways. We are also much better known thanks to Mac OS X, so I don't doubt something like MOSIX will appear. And we have new tools in place now; if someone were thinking in porting MOSIX, or an advanced Beowulf type of thing, they should consider netgraph...I think. My $0.02 Pedro. j mckitrick wrote: > > I was doing research for a project on distributed computing and found this: > > One person in the audience asked why Donald used Linux as the kernel for > building up his Beowulf project instead of one of the BSD kernels. Donald > had an interesting answer to that question. First off, the BSD kernels were > not as stable as Linux, back when he started working on his project. He then > proceeded to complain that working with the BSD developers was very > difficult. They tend to hide the development process thus making it harder > to contribute the needed upgrades. (Remember that Donald had to work with > the internal data structures of the kernel in order to make his project > scale.) He then said that these BSD developers had very large egos. "Their > ego's would fill this room" he said, thus implying the difficulty of working > with them. He then went on to say that he was quite able to work with Linus. > Linus was a laid back guy. > > Ouch. > > Jonathon > -- > The beaten path is for the beaten man. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 15:33: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-32.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C54C37B422 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 15:33:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4B0AD67AFD; Thu, 10 May 2001 15:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:33:00 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Alexander Langer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Developers Picture Gallery - status? Message-ID: <20010510153259.D10234@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010510160635.A1235@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Ycz6tD7Th1CMF4v7" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010510160635.A1235@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d>; from alex@big.endian.de on Thu, May 10, 2001 at 04:06:35PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --Ycz6tD7Th1CMF4v7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 04:06:35PM +0200, Alexander Langer wrote: > Hey folks! >=20 > Recently there have been plans to create a committers picture gallery. > I remember something like "place a picture named youraccount.jpg in > your homedir, and a script will collect it and ...". >=20 > What happened to that idea? I don't think any of the committers took up the jon of making it work. Kris --Ycz6tD7Th1CMF4v7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6+xcbWry0BWjoQKURAnRAAJ0SvU8ZE37vAuK0wcoOBZgV1V+zcACg0Er2 XaicmUEgIEZgqKn9pdeZENo= =T+/q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Ycz6tD7Th1CMF4v7-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 10 19:58:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EBBE37B422 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 19:58:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id VAA99996365 Thu, 10 May 2001 21:51:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA05609; Thu, 10 May 2001 19:59:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 19:59:34 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: j mckitrick Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: workstation application question Message-ID: <20010510195934.A5593@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010510145706.B92417@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010510181529.A97681@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20010510181529.A97681@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Thu, May 10, 2001 at 06:15:29PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Xerox printers in question aren't cheap to begin with. On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 06:15:29PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 06:00:43PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > | At 2:57 PM +0100 5/10/01, j mckitrick wrote: > | > | > I just read recently that Xerox bought a Sun Blade for printer driver > | > development. Why would they use a Sun instead of a PC? > | > | Because all the new Xerox printers use Sun workstations as > | controllers? I think that they started doing this a number of years > > So if you buy a Xerox printer, you have to pay for a sun workstation as > well? That seems kind of odd, not to mention expensive. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 11 0:19:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36C1F37B423 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 00:19:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4B7JDR18853 ; Fri, 11 May 2001 09:19:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id JAA89260 ; Fri, 11 May 2001 09:19:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:19:32 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laptop recommendations in France / Europe? Message-ID: <20010511091932.A89124@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010509133826.I82438@lpt.ens.fr> <20010510160433.A52244@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Thu, May 10, 2001 at 06:17:07PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on May 10, 2001 at 18:17:07: > At 4:04 PM +0200 5/10/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > I'll probably not be going to England any time soon, and anyway I've > > heard that things are pretty expensive there... but I may travel a bit > > around other countries in the summer, and basically any schengen > > country is a possibility. > > If you can get to Paris, you can get to London in just another > three hours via Eurostar. My wife and I do it all the time -- it's > much better than the plane. I am in Paris. I need a visa, in advance. That's not true for EU citizens, I believe. It wouldn't be a problem getting a visa, probably, but when you factor in the cost of the eurostar (if you're in Paris, taking a plane is probably cheaper...) > Otherwise, you have to go through the kind of hell I did -- where > you buy the last remaining PowerBook G3 laptop available in any store > in the country, but it has a Belgian AZERTY keyboard, and they have I'll find out in a day or two... I did go to Surcouf yesterday (as DES suggested), and they did have an Acer model which they assured me was 100% linux-compatible (they'd never heard of FreeBSD) but I didn't think of asking about a qwerty keyboard. However, I'm willing to live with some solution like remapping the keys and pasting stickers on them... Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 11 0:34:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 270EA37B422 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 00:34:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4B7XjO00344; Fri, 11 May 2001 09:33:49 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010511091932.A89124@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010509133826.I82438@lpt.ens.fr> <20010510160433.A52244@lpt.ens.fr> <20010511091932.A89124@lpt.ens.fr> Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:33:24 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Laptop recommendations in France / Europe? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:19 AM +0200 5/11/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I am in Paris. I need a visa, in advance. That's not true for EU > citizens, I believe. It wouldn't be a problem getting a visa, > probably, but when you factor in the cost of the eurostar (if you're > in Paris, taking a plane is probably cheaper...) I'm not sure who needs what visas in advance to go to what countries. Obviously, this depends on what country/ies you are a citizen of, etc.... A US citizen does not need a visa in advance to go to any European country I know of -- your passport is effectively an automatic six month tourist visa. Now, if you want to go there and stay longer than that, you might have a problem. But I don't think that this would be the case if you just wanted to buy a laptop. > I'll find out in a day or two... I did go to Surcouf yesterday (as DES > suggested), and they did have an Acer model which they assured me was > 100% linux-compatible (they'd never heard of FreeBSD) but I didn't > think of asking about a qwerty keyboard. If you want to come up to Brussels and look around, let me know. I do not personally know where all the big computer stores are, but I've got some former co-workers that I think would still talk to me, and they should know where they are. They should also have an idea of what laptops work with Linux (and presumably would work with FreeBSD), since they have laptops at work with Linux on them. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 11 0:48: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E32E837B422 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 00:48:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4B7m0R21919 ; Fri, 11 May 2001 09:48:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id JAA90382 ; Fri, 11 May 2001 09:48:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:48:20 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Laptop recommendations in France / Europe? Message-ID: <20010511094820.D89124@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010509133826.I82438@lpt.ens.fr> <20010510160433.A52244@lpt.ens.fr> <20010511091932.A89124@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Fri, May 11, 2001 at 09:33:24AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on May 11, 2001 at 09:33:24: > At 9:19 AM +0200 5/11/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > I am in Paris. I need a visa, in advance. That's not true for EU > > citizens, I believe. It wouldn't be a problem getting a visa, > > probably, but when you factor in the cost of the eurostar (if you're > > in Paris, taking a plane is probably cheaper...) > > I'm not sure who needs what visas in advance to go to what > countries. Obviously, this depends on what country/ies you are a > citizen of, etc.... I'm an Indian citizen, and I do need a visa for most countries (except Nepal and perhaps some other countries in the neighbourhood). It turns out the model I looked at yesterday has a winmodem (a Lucent Technologies softmodem). There's supposed to be some linux support for that now, otherwise I'll have to ask about replacing it with something else -- it looks like it's not supported with FreeBSD. > If you want to come up to Brussels and look around, let me know. Would the prices/range be very different? If so, I may take up that offer in a couple of weeks time -- it's only an hour by train I believe, so I could probably come in the morning and return the same evening. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 11 2:39:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 124C337B424 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 02:39:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4B9bcO03651; Fri, 11 May 2001 11:37:40 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010511094820.D89124@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010509133826.I82438@lpt.ens.fr> <20010510160433.A52244@lpt.ens.fr> <20010511091932.A89124@lpt.ens.fr> <20010511094820.D89124@lpt.ens.fr> Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:30:15 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Laptop recommendations in France / Europe? Cc: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:48 AM +0200 5/11/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> If you want to come up to Brussels and look around, let me know. > > Would the prices/range be very different? I'm not sure how different the prices would be. Theoretically, France and Belgium are members of the Euro zone and the values of the different currencies are fixed with respect to the Euro, so prices should be essentially the same wherever you go, except for tax differences. That said, I believe that you might be more likely to get an English language keyboard up here (or at least, get it ordered for you), but I can't speak for what the variety of equipment might be like compared to France. I know that Fnac has a number of different models (over a dozen), but I don't know which ones might work well with FreeBSD and which ones might not. I also don't know what other stores there might be where you could buy a laptop. > If so, I may take up that > offer in a couple of weeks time -- it's only an hour by train I > believe, so I could probably come in the morning and return the same > evening. It's about ninety minutes to two hours by Thalys, depending on delays, etc.... You could certainly come up and go back down on the same day -- my wife and my parents did the reverse trip the previous time they visited here, and we got to see the entire museums for Rodin and the Cluny, plus have lunch at a sidewalk bistro. Indeed, my wife and I have done the three-hour trip to London and back a couple of times, but that's pretty grueling if you are also planning on doing several hours of shopping on top of everything. Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 11 15:46:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A05D137B43E for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 15:46:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA29175; Fri, 11 May 2001 15:46:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAdda444; Fri May 11 15:46:43 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA21218; Fri, 11 May 2001 16:04:03 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105112304.QAA21218@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Laptop recommendations in France / Europe? To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:04:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brad.knowles@skynet.be (Brad Knowles), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010511094820.D89124@lpt.ens.fr> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at May 11, 2001 09:48:20 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm an Indian citizen, and I do need a visa for most countries (except > Nepal and perhaps some other countries in the neighbourhood). > > It turns out the model I looked at yesterday has a winmodem (a Lucent > Technologies softmodem). There's supposed to be some linux support > for that now, otherwise I'll have to ask about replacing it with > something else -- it looks like it's not supported with FreeBSD. The Lucent Winmodem is supported by two versions of the Linux driver, ported, and one native version for FreeBSD. The two Linux versions are a native port of the Linux driver, and an object driver wrapper to let a binary Linux driver run in FreeBSD (This _may_ work with other Linux Winmodem drivers, including the one for the modem in my Sony Vaio -- I have not tried this yet). The native FreeBSD driver was written by Lucent; however, it was never released, since FreeBSD would not change the module loading interface to permit parameters to be passed to drivers loaded as kernel modules, when they are loaded. This last one was discussed at BAFUG/BABUG last night, with much blushing by Peter Wemm... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 11 20:54:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13605.mail.yahoo.com (web13605.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B99C237B423 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 20:54:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010512035424.17867.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.122.12.184] by web13605.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 11 May 2001 20:54:24 PDT Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 20:54:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Crap OS X To: chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am removing it and going back to 8.6 for production needs. And I am not alone. http://dealchat.com/mac/read.html?id=429845&thread=429845 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 12 4: 6:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from madcap.apk.net (madcap.apk.net [207.54.158.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D13D37B43C for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 04:06:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ipswitch@apk.net) X-IP-Test: 207.54.148.235 Received: from localhost (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by madcap.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with ESMTP id f4CB6Me28077 for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 07:06:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105121106.f4CB6Me28077@madcap.apk.net> Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 07:06:12 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.388) From: Stuart Krivis To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v388) In-Reply-To: <20010512035424.17867.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Crap OS X Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, May 11, 2001, at 11:54 PM, Bzdik BSD wrote: > > I am removing it and going back to 8.6 for production needs. > And I am not alone. > > And here I think it's the best thing Apple has ever done... It still needs some work, but everyone knew that would be the case. Apple is blending the Classic MacOS interface with OPENSTEP. I'd prefer to have it more NeXT-like, but it's pretty good as it is. Developers ought to like it too. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 12 4:13:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-32.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CF8C37B424 for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 04:13:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CEAA466C04; Sat, 12 May 2001 04:13:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 04:13:07 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Bzdik BSD Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Crap OS X Message-ID: <20010512041306.A87740@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010512035424.17867.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ibTvN161/egqYuK8" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010512035424.17867.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com>; from bzdik@yahoo.com on Fri, May 11, 2001 at 08:54:24PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 08:54:24PM -0700, Bzdik BSD wrote: >=20 > I am removing it and going back to 8.6 for production needs. > And I am not alone. >=20 > http://dealchat.com/mac/read.html?id=3D429845&thread=3D429845 I don't know how big that site is, but there are only about 10 negative posts in that thread..that isn't very much of a backlash, when you consider that any nontrivial change to a product with such a hard-core group of followers is going to piss people off. Kris --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6/RrCWry0BWjoQKURAmDuAKD90lLL6/ADMlWt7JRJM0HK0UqbyACgx+J2 Q8bxNrTmuZuM4pBRLTaXCgY= =GNZ0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ibTvN161/egqYuK8-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 12 4:22:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64E2737B423 for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 04:22:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4CBMkR50898 ; Sat, 12 May 2001 13:22:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA53023 ; Sat, 12 May 2001 13:23:06 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 13:23:06 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Laptop recommendations in France / Europe? Message-ID: <20010512132306.D51610@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010511094820.D89124@lpt.ens.fr> <200105112304.QAA21218@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200105112304.QAA21218@usr02.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, May 11, 2001 at 11:04:03PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 11, 2001 at 23:04:03: > > It turns out the model I looked at yesterday has a winmodem (a Lucent > > Technologies softmodem). There's supposed to be some linux support > > for that now, otherwise I'll have to ask about replacing it with > > something else -- it looks like it's not supported with FreeBSD. > > The Lucent Winmodem is supported by two versions of the Linux > driver, ported, and one native version for FreeBSD. > > The two Linux versions are a native port of the Linux driver, > and an object driver wrapper to let a binary Linux driver run > in FreeBSD (This _may_ work with other Linux Winmodem drivers, > including the one for the modem in my Sony Vaio -- I have not > tried this yet). That's nice to know. I may go in for this model; I'll decide within this week or so. I'll probably make it dual-boot (FreeBSD and Linux), to begin with anyway... Thanks Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 12 11:49:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moutvdom01.kundenserver.de (moutvdom01.kundenserver.de [195.20.224.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA2737B43E for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 11:49:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mail-service@friedhof2000.de) Received: from [195.20.224.219] (helo=mrvdom03.kundenserver.de) by moutvdom01.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 14yeSM-0000Hq-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 20:49:34 +0200 Received: from pd904dd79.dip.t-dialin.net ([217.4.221.121] helo=celeron) by mrvdom03.kundenserver.de with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 14yeS9-0007fC-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 20:49:21 +0200 From: Mail-Service To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Jetzt gewinnen, in über 100 Gewinnspielen! Reply-To: mail-service@friedhof2000.de MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: BulkMailer 2.0 (www.kroll-software.de) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 20:49:21 +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Falls unerwünscht, bitte sofort löschen! Gewinn24.de meldet Sie jeden Monat bei über 100 der besten Gewinnspiele im Internet an. Sie sparen mit Gewinn24.de eine Menge Zeit und Geld. Für maximal 2,- DM pro Monat sind Sie dabei und haben jeden Monat Gewinnchancen auf viele tolle Preise im Gesamtwert von mehreren Millionen DM. http://www.Gewinn24.de/index.php3?partner=7294 *Bei Beschwerden bitte an alex-albert@01019freenet.de * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 12 12:23:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13602.mail.yahoo.com (web13602.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AC17237B43F for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 12:23:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010512192328.71978.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13602.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 12 May 2001 12:23:28 PDT Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 12:23:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Crap OS X To: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20010512041306.A87740@xor.obsecurity.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 08:54:24PM -0700, Bzdik BSD wrote: > > > > I am removing it and going back to 8.6 for production needs. > > And I am not alone. > > > > http://dealchat.com/mac/read.html?id=429845&thread=429845 > > I don't know how big that site is, but there are only about 10 > negative posts in that thread..that isn't very much of a backlash, > when you consider that any nontrivial change to a product with such a > hard-core group of followers is going to piss people off. > > Kris The very though that a negative comment could ever possibly appear on a Mac board is a heresy. You thought you saw loyal fanatics in Linus camp? You haven't seen anything untill you meet us, Mac nuts :). And that board is also frequented by PC people as well, - very good deals on all kinds of hardware not only Apple stuff. I don't need a Mac for xvzf|\@\-ing. I need it to grab something, drop it somewhere flip it over and be done with it. I don't need no freaking inetd, crypto-quazi-schmazi-zomething. Give me anything that will come close to Eudora, MT-NewsWatcher on a Mac or The Bat! on Windows after 30 years of Unix growth. Still using Netscape on Solaris? My condolences. The same goes to people who serve on Windows. There is no Universal Tool(Unless you are MSFT employee). But for the desktop, Oonixen will have to go yet another 30 years. KDE, my ass. Try to offer it to somebody who has to meet a deadline. It's a pity they killed Be OS... one of few truly innovative things. I don't really need a multiuser box in my home the only merit of which is that it's 10 years old and still working. I have a 10 year old LC475 with much nicer interface that runs MacSSH for me when I need to administer that BSD box I also love :)) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 12 13: 1:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BDE737B424 for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 13:01:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4CK0l319381; Sat, 12 May 2001 13:00:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: bzdik@yahoo.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Crap OS X In-Reply-To: <20010512192328.71978.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010512041306.A87740@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010512192328.71978.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010512130047Z.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 13:00:47 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 69 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, as you put it, there are all sorts of "mac nuts" who'd like things to stay exactly as they were. There are also a lot of OS/2 nuts still out there who pine for the days of OS/2 and wish microsoft would just come to their senses and stop doing Windows already. There's even the remnants of the Amiga community who are still hoping that AmigaOS will come back. At the same time, there also exist a large number of people who would like progress to occur and refuse to have anything to do with all these retro fanatics. :) My point? There are all sorts of people with all sorts of tastes and this doesn't make any particular set of opinions any more "valid" than the others, including, of course, yours. I happen to like OS X and like it quite a lot. I'm sure there are also others who will stop running OS 8.x (9.1 being far too new and funky for their tastes) when you pry it from their cold, dead fingers. "It takes all kinds." - Jordan From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Crap OS X Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 12:23:28 -0700 (PDT) > --- Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 08:54:24PM -0700, Bzdik BSD wrote: > > > > > > I am removing it and going back to 8.6 for production needs. > > > And I am not alone. > > > > > > http://dealchat.com/mac/read.html?id=429845&thread=429845 > > > > I don't know how big that site is, but there are only about 10 > > negative posts in that thread..that isn't very much of a backlash, > > when you consider that any nontrivial change to a product with such a > > hard-core group of followers is going to piss people off. > > > > Kris > > The very though that a negative comment could ever possibly appear on a > Mac board is a heresy. You thought you saw loyal fanatics in Linus > camp? You haven't seen anything untill you meet us, Mac nuts :). > And that board is also frequented by PC people as well, - very good > deals on all kinds of hardware not only Apple stuff. > > I don't need a Mac for xvzf|\@\-ing. I need it to grab something, drop > it somewhere flip it over and be done with it. I don't need no freaking > inetd, crypto-quazi-schmazi-zomething. Give me anything that will come > close to Eudora, MT-NewsWatcher on a Mac or The Bat! on Windows after > 30 years of Unix growth. Still using Netscape on Solaris? My > condolences. The same goes to people who serve on Windows. There is > no Universal Tool(Unless you are MSFT employee). But for the desktop, > Oonixen will have to go yet another 30 years. KDE, my ass. Try to offer > it to somebody who has to meet a deadline. It's a pity they killed Be > OS... one of few truly innovative things. > I don't really need a multiuser box in my home the only merit of which > is that it's 10 years old and still working. I have a 10 year old LC475 > with much nicer interface that runs MacSSH for me when I need to > administer that BSD box I also love :)) > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 12 14:31:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F6DB37B43E for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 14:31:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 14ygz6-00041z-00; Sat, 12 May 2001 23:31:32 +0200 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f4CLAkK08767 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 May 2001 23:10:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Crap OS X Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 21:10:44 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <9dk8sk$864$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <20010512041306.A87740@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010512192328.71978.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> <20010512130047Z.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan Hubbard wrote: > Well, as you put it, there are all sorts of "mac nuts" who'd like > things to stay exactly as they were. There are also a lot of OS/2 > nuts still out there who pine for the days of OS/2 and wish microsoft > would just come to their senses and stop doing Windows already. > There's even the remnants of the Amiga community who are still hoping > that AmigaOS will come back. And there's Michael Sokolov with his Quasijarus Project... -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 12 15:23:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13602.mail.yahoo.com (web13602.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3A86337B440 for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 15:23:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010512222337.90720.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13602.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 12 May 2001 15:23:37 PDT Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 15:23:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Crap OS X To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010512130047Z.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Jordan Hubbard wrote: > Well, as you put it, there are all sorts of "mac nuts" who'd like > things to stay exactly as they were. There are also a lot of OS/2 > nuts still out there who pine for the days of OS/2 and wish microsoft > would just come to their senses and stop doing Windows already. > There's even the remnants of the Amiga community who are still hoping > that AmigaOS will come back. > > At the same time, there also exist a large number of people who would > like progress to occur and refuse to have anything to do with all > these retro fanatics. :) > > My point? There are all sorts of people with all sorts of tastes and > this doesn't make any particular set of opinions any more "valid" > than > the others, including, of course, yours. I happen to like OS X and > like it quite a lot. I'm sure there are also others who will stop > running OS 8.x (9.1 being far too new and funky for their tastes) > when > you pry it from their cold, dead fingers. "It takes all kinds." > > - Jordan Do you like it because it finally gives you what FreeBSD doesn't? There is a wonderful thread right now on "misc". Somebody asked an innocent question:"How to copy&paste?"... You may call it a progress, if a destop OS needs that much processing power to do what's been done for over a decade before. The only way to sell it is to wrap it in new clothes to cover... I was talking about the end result as an end-user not as a theorist who never actually worked in my environment. It's a commercial OS and the market will be the final judge. Yes, "it takes all kinds"...of tools...like NexT perhaps? Where is it? Progress, my ass...nothing but demagoguery from an authority to justify 2CPU and a pile of RAM to finally copy&paste? You giving me fits, Moysha...beter go and fix that ftp server of yours. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 12 15:36:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13604.mail.yahoo.com (web13604.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 450D337B424 for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 15:36:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010512223618.74438.qmail@web13604.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13604.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 12 May 2001 15:36:18 PDT Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 15:36:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Crap OS X To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010512130047Z.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Jordan Hubbard wrote: > Well, as you put it, there are all sorts of "mac nuts" who'd like > things to stay exactly as they were. There are also a lot of OS/2 > nuts still out there who pine for the days of OS/2 and wish microsoft > would just come to their senses and stop doing Windows already. > There's even the remnants of the Amiga community who are still hoping > that AmigaOS will come back. I did not say I was hoping mac OS will come back, did I? I did not say I'd like "things to stay exactly as they were", did I? If you want to twist, hire somebody who does it better. My point is that Mac is dead in my eyes. Finally. Mac OS X is not a "progress" in terms of transparent functionality. By no stretch. Even by those who never worked with the tool. And W2K finally has PS support, LOL. Progress by another visionary-functionaire. Wake up. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 12 17: 9:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B16C37B449 for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 17:09:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4D09M321056; Sat, 12 May 2001 17:09:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: bzdik@yahoo.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Crap OS X In-Reply-To: <20010512222337.90720.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010512130047Z.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010512222337.90720.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010512170922Z.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 17:09:22 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 23 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Crap OS X Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 15:23:37 -0700 (PDT) > Do you like it because it finally gives you what FreeBSD doesn't? I like it for a lot of reasons. If you want to know what some of them are, go read the article I wrote for Salon on it. > for over a decade before. The only way to sell it is to wrap it in new > clothes to cover... I was talking about the end result as an end-user > not as a theorist who never actually worked in my environment. It's a I wasn't talking as a theorist either, but perhaps I've simply worked in a wider array of environments than you have. I can certainly say that my needs would be rather ill-served by MacOS 8, whereas is appears to be more than enough for you. But hey, nobody's forcing you to upgrade, right? Just stick with your little dalmation-spotted G3 box and I'm sure the shareware sites will continue to keep you supplied with software for years to come, just as they do for the Commodore 64. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 12 17:11:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6E6C37B43E for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 17:11:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4D0Ag321100; Sat, 12 May 2001 17:10:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: bzdik@yahoo.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Crap OS X In-Reply-To: <20010512223618.74438.qmail@web13604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010512130047Z.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010512223618.74438.qmail@web13604.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010512171042F.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 17:10:42 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 12 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Crap OS X Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 15:36:18 -0700 (PDT) > I did not say I was hoping mac OS will come back, did I? > I did not say I'd like "things to stay exactly as they were", did I? You said a lot of things, but given that they merely bordered on coherency without actually infringing on it (and that's a neat trick), it was harder for me to respond to all of them. ;) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 12 20:38:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-76-217.knology.net [24.214.76.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD7A37B424 for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 20:38:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4D3c4516271; Sat, 12 May 2001 22:38:04 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200105130338.f4D3c4516271@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Stuart Krivis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Crap OS X In-Reply-To: Message from Stuart Krivis of "Sat, 12 May 2001 07:06:12 EDT." <200105121106.f4CB6Me28077@madcap.apk.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 22:38:04 -0500 From: David Kelly Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stuart Krivis writes: > > On Friday, May 11, 2001, at 11:54 PM, Bzdik BSD wrote: > > > > > I am removing it and going back to 8.6 for production needs. > > And I am not alone. > > > > > > And here I think it's the best thing Apple has ever done... Damn near the best thing Apple has ever done. Second only to their earth shattering notion that some of the power of the computer should be applied toward getting the task done and less toward babysitting the OS and unique user interfaces for every application. If the original poster doesn't want his copy of MacOS X, can I have it? Will be needing another for my desktop G4-400. Already have it and run nothing but on my TiBook. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 12 23:48:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13605.mail.yahoo.com (web13605.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 999C837B423 for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 23:48:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010513064822.51260.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.122.12.184] by web13605.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 12 May 2001 23:48:22 PDT Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 23:48:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Crap OS X To: David Kelly , Stuart Krivis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200105130338.f4D3c4516271@grumpy.dyndns.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- David Kelly wrote: > Stuart Krivis writes: > > > > On Friday, May 11, 2001, at 11:54 PM, Bzdik BSD wrote: > > > > > > > > I am removing it and going back to 8.6 for production needs. > > > And I am not alone. > > > > > > > > > > And here I think it's the best thing Apple has ever done... > > Damn near the best thing Apple has ever done. Second only to their > earth > shattering notion that some of the power of the computer should be > applied > toward getting the task done and less toward babysitting the OS and > unique > user interfaces for every application. > > If the original poster doesn't want his copy of MacOS X, can I have > it? > Will be needing another for my desktop G4-400. Already have it and > run > nothing but on my TiBook. > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net is this legal? can I do this? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message