From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 27 3: 5:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailc.telia.com (mailc.telia.com [194.22.190.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3236037B423 for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 03:05:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fredrik@speechcraft.com) Received: from d1o74.telia.com (d1o74.telia.com [62.20.224.241]) by mailc.telia.com (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4RA5AM21429; Sun, 27 May 2001 12:05:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from molly.telia.com (t5o74p76.telia.com [212.181.216.76]) by d1o74.telia.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01793; Sun, 27 May 2001 12:05:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 12:05:30 +0000 (/etc/localtime) From: Fredrik Olausson X-Sender: fredrik@molly.telia.com To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: jmallett@xMach.org, dscheidt@tumbolia.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: <20010526152631Z.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 26 May 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > Apple couldn't have done Aqua as a plain old X window manager. Well, they > > Right - that's something I left out of my previous message. To have > suggested that Apple could have accomplished their goals by simply > bolting a new look-and-feel on top of X was just ludicrous (sorry). Don't apologise, I don't have a clue about the technical parts of OSX so I don't mind being corrected. > They're trying to make an OS that your grandmother could use, with > a good printing model and lots of API support for mainstream apps. > X with a new window manager that most certainly is not. They > were right to start from scratch. Then how much will OSX then benifit the Unix community as a whole? I understand that parts of the Unix model are slightly archaic, but isn't gradual change a la KDE better than just throwing the standards aside and rolling your own? Both QT and GTK allow for good component-based programming similar to the MFC, wouldn't an expansion of the stuff previously written have benefitted both Apple and the rest of the Unix industry? Is there a way to "re-marry" the two? -Fredrik To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 27 7:20:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smyk.apk.net (smyk.apk.net [207.54.158.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DC937B422 for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 07:20:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@krivis.com) Received: from [192.168.1.60] (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by smyk.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with ESMTP id f4REKKs18613 for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 10:20:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 10:20:18 -0400 From: Stuart Krivis To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IIS vs Apache Message-ID: <7713035.990958808@[192.168.1.60]> In-Reply-To: <2357490475.990199968@box027.labs.pitt.edu> References: <2357490475.990199968@box027.labs.pitt.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0a6 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I tried a benchmark with Apache and IIS on Solaris. Apache did very well. IIS took an infinite amount of time to respond. I guess this proves that Apache is superior to IIS. --On Friday, May 18, 2001 3:32 PM -0400 "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > > --On Friday, May 18, 2001 5:59 PM +0100 j mckitrick > wrote:r > >> >> I just saw a quote: >> >> But as Giga analyst Stacey Quandt noted, even the fastest, cheapest >> and best browser may not win. >> >> "Sometimes, the best technologies don't win out. Microsoft's IIS >> (Internet Information Server) is faster >> than Apache, but Apache has the greatest market share, for example." >> >> Are there any stats to back this up, that anyone knows of? >> > The statement is very confusing, are they comparing webservers or > OS+webservers?? Is"best technology" here, Windows NT? If we are > comparing Apache on Windows NT, surely IIS does better. On FreeBSD or > Linux IIS doesn't perfom at all...so well...I guess there's no doubt what > technology to compare there :). > > Pedro. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 27 7:43:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3162E37B43C for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 07:43:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA22787; Sun, 27 May 2001 08:43:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 08:36:02 -0600 To: Fredrik Olausson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:27 PM 5/25/2001, Fredrik Olausson wrote: >Hi all, > >Over the past few weeks there's been an increased amount of reporting in >various on- and off-line media about the failure of open-source OS:es on >the desktop. One of the key prerequisites business customers and consumers have for a desktop system (as opposed to a server) is that it be EXTREMELY simple to use and also promoted and supported by a commercial entity with a viable business plan. (Ximian and Eazel both fell pray to the GPL "poison pill.) Were KDE or GNOME BSD-licensed, companies could have come out with their own unique flavors of them and might have filled that role. But the GPL rears its ugly head again, and by precluding unique improvements by vendors (and hence their ability to create well differentiated products) prevents them from succeding. Today, most users of the BSDs (AND Linux) effectively use Windows as their GUI. The other combination that currently shows the most promise for folks in the know is Mac OS X (which combines BSD and Mach with a vendor's own, well-supported commercial desktop). In short, the desktop needs to be commercial, or at least commercializable. The GPL is wrong for this, since its intent is to destroy commercial software. The sad fact that KDE and GNOME are GPLed may be a key reason why folks are still using other options. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 27 8:28:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9409F37B424 for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 08:28:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4RFS3R59445 ; Sun, 27 May 2001 17:28:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA11638 ; Sun, 27 May 2001 17:28:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 17:28:38 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Fredrik Olausson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Message-ID: <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Fredrik Olausson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sun, May 27, 2001 at 08:36:02AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on May 27, 2001 at 08:36:02: > with a viable business plan. (Ximian and Eazel both fell pray to the > GPL "poison pill.) Were KDE or GNOME BSD-licensed, companies could have > come out with their own unique flavors of them and might have filled > that role. But the GPL rears its ugly head again, and by precluding > unique improvements by vendors (and hence their ability to create > well differentiated products) prevents them from succeding. Haven't we heard this from you before? Why don't you start your own BSD-licensed desktop project? > Today, most users of the BSDs (AND Linux) effectively use Windows > as their GUI. I'd say most users of BSD whom I know use linux as a GUI -- that is, their window manager / desktop environment was developed on linux, though it may be ported to run natively on FreeBSD. The "BSD community" as such has made no contribution to the desktop, so can't complain if the existing options are GPL'd. At least I think that makes more sense than what you're saying. If the mail server (administered by someone else) is running BSD but my desktop is running Windows and Eudora, I wouldn't count myself as a BSD user -- any more than I'd count everyone who uses Yahoo as BSD users. If you're using a windows desktop, you're a windows user. I also think that right now KDE is far superior to Windows in functionality, ease of use, customisability, and visual appearance -- except in the cases where it has to interface very closely with the system (graphical system configuration utilities, etc) which are difficult because of the lack of standardization in linux itself, even when one doesn't worry about FreeBSD. Anyway, I don't really care about point-and-click system management tools. And KDE has done everything else without blowing the $13 million or whatever which Eazel spent on a file manager alone. I see no room for pessimism. I do, however, doubt very much that anyone will develop a BSD-licensed desktop environment. The BSD license is geared to some things, and not to some other things, and I think it is attractive for a program like bzip2 (where the aim is to establish a standard), but fundamentally unattractive for a desktop environment or a word processor. Any such effort will be GPL (or similarly restrictive license) or out-and-out commercial. - R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 27 12:19: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7319037B422 for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 12:18:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4RJIXO22307; Sun, 27 May 2001 12:18:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: fredrik@speechcraft.com Cc: jmallett@xMach.org, dscheidt@tumbolia.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: References: <20010526152631Z.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010527121833P.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 12:18:33 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 32 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Then how much will OSX then benifit the Unix community as a whole? I The underlying "core" parts, e.g. nothing the typical desktop end-user will probably ever see but a lot of what makes it a powerful networking solution and "classic Unix environment" as well. > but isn't gradual change a la KDE better than just throwing the > standards aside and rolling your own? Both QT and GTK allow for good > component-based programming similar to the MFC, wouldn't an > expansion of the stuff previously written have benefitted both Apple > and the rest of the Unix industry? Is there a way to "re-marry" the > two? Again, Apple is trying to fight a much bigger battle. I think you should spend some time getting better acquainted with Apple's rather unique user base and mindset. It's also the case that in many respects, it's actually the KDE folks who "threw standards aside" and came up with a new programming model. Apple can't afford to do that, and a lot of their Carbon and Cocoa framework is all about providing bridgework for their classic OS 9 customer base. If you write an application to the Carbon API, for example, it will run on both older and newer Macs. That's extremely important to the many ISVs who target the Apple market since they don't want to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars into producing software for just one segment of the Apple community. The programming frameworks provided by Apple also make anything GTK and QT provide look like tinkertoys by comparison. Just spend about an hour with their AppBuilder stuff sometime and see how you can connect stuff graphically to ObjectiveC classes. Very powerful. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 27 12:34: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailg.telia.com (mailg.telia.com [194.22.194.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC30237B422 for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 12:34:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fredrik@speechcraft.com) Received: from d1o74.telia.com (d1o74.telia.com [62.20.224.241]) by mailg.telia.com (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4RJY2j18233; Sun, 27 May 2001 21:34:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from molly.telia.com (t1o74p17.telia.com [62.20.224.17]) by d1o74.telia.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01057; Sun, 27 May 2001 21:34:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:34:25 +0000 (/etc/localtime) From: Fredrik Olausson X-Sender: fredrik@molly.telia.com To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: jmallett@xMach.org, dscheidt@tumbolia.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: <20010527121833P.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 27 May 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > Again, Apple is trying to fight a much bigger battle. I think you > should spend some time getting better acquainted with Apple's rather > unique user base and mindset. I guess so... I'm a Windows programmer by profession (hears chants of "Burn the heretic!" ;) > The programming > frameworks provided by Apple also make anything GTK and QT provide > look like tinkertoys by comparison. Just spend about an hour with > their AppBuilder stuff sometime and see how you can connect stuff > graphically to ObjectiveC classes. Very powerful. Speaking of which, If I buy a copy of MacOS X, will I get development tools and such along with it, or do I have to buy a third-party product? I've been meaning to get me one of those G4's and MacOS X to test it, but where can I get the programming tools for it? -Fredrik To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 27 12:47:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61FED37B422 for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 12:47:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4RJkxO93551; Sun, 27 May 2001 12:46:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: fredrik@speechcraft.com Cc: jmallett@xMach.org, dscheidt@tumbolia.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: References: <20010527121833P.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010527124659K.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 12:46:59 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 36 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I guess so... I'm a Windows programmer by profession (hears chants of > "Burn the heretic!" ;) I wish you'd mentioned that at the beginning of the conversation - I could have saved myself some time. ;-) > Speaking of which, If I buy a copy of MacOS X, will I get development > tools and such along with it, or do I have to buy a third-party > product? I've been meaning to get me one of those G4's and MacOS X to test > it, but where can I get the programming tools for it? Yes, you'll get all the project manager / appbuilder stuff on a 2nd CD, along with gcc, gdb, etc for command-line oriented development. It's probably already been apparent in my comments so far, but I'll just state it directly for the record: I'm impressed as hell with what Apple has done with OS X. They're the first mainstream company to really provide the best of both worlds in a single OS. The visual tools are all reasonably close to being best-of-breed in their respective categories, meaning you Windows programmer types can find tools like VisualBasic to get you going quickly and make your semi-psychotic, demanding bosses happy that you actually hit your ridiculously short deadlines. At the same time, if you're a grizzled Unix programmer you can quickly open a terminal window and be using your shell of choice along with the same emacs, gcc and gdb type tools that you've grown to know and possibly even love. It's not a hobbled desktop environment requiring massive shims like CygWin to achieve portability for Unix or "real life" POSIX apps by any means. That's very cool. The fact that Apple is also managing to make money on it makes me reasonably confident that they're not just going to pull an Eazel on us in the future. In the corporate context, at least, there can be such a thing as being TOO open source. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 27 12:49:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13608.mail.yahoo.com (web13608.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 08DA037B422 for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 12:49:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010527194950.93055.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13608.mail.yahoo.com; Sun, 27 May 2001 12:49:50 PDT Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 12:49:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Acknowledgement by Jobs To: chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/19113.html even da boy sez it's slow... at your expense they will fight the problem yet another 6 years __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 27 13:34:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 860E937B423 for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 13:34:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 447BE756B; Sun, 27 May 2001 13:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319A91D89; Sun, 27 May 2001 13:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 13:36:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Fredrik Olausson Cc: Jordan Hubbard , jmallett@xMach.org, dscheidt@tumbolia.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 27 May 2001, Fredrik Olausson wrote: : :On Sun, 27 May 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: :> Again, Apple is trying to fight a much bigger battle. I think you :> should spend some time getting better acquainted with Apple's rather :> unique user base and mindset. : :I guess so... I'm a Windows programmer by profession (hears chants of :"Burn the heretic!" ;) : :> The programming :> frameworks provided by Apple also make anything GTK and QT provide :> look like tinkertoys by comparison. Just spend about an hour with :> their AppBuilder stuff sometime and see how you can connect stuff :> graphically to ObjectiveC classes. Very powerful. : :Speaking of which, If I buy a copy of MacOS X, will I get development :tools and such along with it, or do I have to buy a third-party :product? I've been meaning to get me one of those G4's and MacOS X to test :it, but where can I get the programming tools for it? A friend of mine bought a new iBook at the Apple store in Tysons Corner on Friday. The free OS X upgrade (and future bundled versions) will not ship with the Developer CD. The Mac OS X box does ship with the Developer CD. I guess Apple only wants people who upgrade their old Macs to do developement. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 27 15:40:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A96CE37B423 for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 15:40:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4RMdfs00507; Mon, 28 May 2001 00:39:41 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010527121833P.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> References: <20010526152631Z.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010527121833P.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 00:13:42 +0200 To: Jordan Hubbard , fredrik@speechcraft.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Cc: jmallett@xMach.org, dscheidt@tumbolia.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:18 PM -0700 5/27/01, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > If you write an application to the Carbon API, for > example, it will run on both older and newer Macs. I'm sure that you mean it will run under both MacOS 9 with the CarbonLib extension, and under MacOS X, as well. While certainly the ideal, even this statement is not true -- there are a number of Carbon apps I know of that will not run under MacOS 9 with CarbonLib. This is certainly the goal for Carbon, but there is still much that Apple has yet to deliver. I do not pretend that my knowledge begins to scratch the surface of this issue, but I have read quite extensively in every single major English-language Mac publication I know of (plus most of the English-language Mac websites), and this is an issue that top developers are still complaining about. Of course, even though Apple hasn't delivered anywhere near as much as they need to in the way of Carbon development tools and libraries, they're already putting extreme pressure on developers to not only carbonize their applications, but to do so in a manner that is more optimized for MacOS X. On the one hand, they say that between 52% and 82% (depending on the sector) of Mac users will switch brands to the first product that supports carbon (thus putting a hot poker up the butt of developers, to paraphrase one company executive). Nevermind the fact that they still haven't delivered all the most basic tools that many developers need, now they make the situation even worse by insisting that they can't just do a straight (and supposedly relatively simple) conversion, it instead has to be converted and then optimized for MacOS X. I've been following what is now called MacOS X for many years. Indeed, I've been waiting seventeen years for someone to take the full power of the Macintosh UI and put it on top of the full power of the Unix OS, and I've seen many aborted attempts along the way (including Apple's own previous demon-spawn, A/UX). The future of MacOS X does look very bright, but IMO Apple has to do everything absolutely perfectly for the next couple of years (at least), otherwise everything goes up in smoke. While they have some incredibly bright people and they come out with some outstanding products (witness the original iMac, the original Blue & White PowerMac G3, the original PowerBook, the second-generation PowerBook G3 in its many incarnations, the new "TiBook" G4, the iBook, the new "iceBook"), I fear that they are not perfect and that they will not be able to sustain their success rate long enough, and they will fail. Anyone can bat a thousand on a single pitch. However, even the best and most prolific hitters in history haven't been able to bat a thousand for more than a very limited period of time. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 27 16:22:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD4BD37B423 for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 16:22:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4RNMqO21536; Sun, 27 May 2001 16:22:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: bzdik@yahoo.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs In-Reply-To: <20010527194950.93055.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010527194950.93055.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010527162252D.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 16:22:52 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 21 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You certainly don't let the unmitigated strangeness of your views hold you back, do ya? :) - Jordan From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Acknowledgement by Jobs Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 12:49:50 -0700 (PDT) > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/19113.html > > even da boy sez it's slow... at your expense they will fight the > problem yet another 6 years > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 27 20:18:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.rdc2.bc.home.com (mail2.rdc2.bc.home.com [24.2.10.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD7CF37B42C for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 20:18:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bula@constantin.com) Received: from [24.76.58.120] by mail2.rdc2.bc.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010528031807.CDSX11152.mail2.rdc2.bc.home.com@[24.76.58.120]> for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 20:18:07 -0700 From: bula@constantin.com To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: SPX® - smart solution Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20010528031807.CDSX11152.mail2.rdc2.bc.home.com@[24.76.58.120]> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 20:18:07 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Best screen capture on earth and in cyberspace.
In fact the only one.
Anything else is just a long learning process.

SPX® v2.0
Everytime you need to select a portion of screen, hold right-click longer than usual until the cursor turns into the "cross" graphical cursor.Make your selection and as soon as you release the mouse, SPX® will send it to the destination of your choice: Clipboard, File, Mail, Printer/Fax

Very useful, no?
www.moodysoft.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 27 22:39: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EBFE37B422 for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 22:39:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1882"@[136.142.22.139]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K42VTXBK2000009E@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 28 May 2001 01:38:59 EST Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 01:46:04 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: The desktop apathy To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B11E61C.95D0BA0D@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > ... > > I do, however, doubt very much that anyone will develop a BSD-licensed > desktop environment. The BSD license is geared to some things, and > not to some other things, and I think it is attractive for a program > like bzip2 (where the aim is to establish a standard), but > fundamentally unattractive for a desktop environment or a word > processor. Any such effort will be GPL (or similarly restrictive > license) or out-and-out commercial. > I do think you have a point here. Staroffice has practically all the functionally of MS office (haven't checked the spreadsheet though) and the license is restricted. However, even if the applications are MS-compatible there seems to be something missing. Technically speaking there is little the kernel can do to improve the situation, so making any distinction between Linux and FreeBSD is pointless. The problem might require having someone redesign X with an Object Oriented approach. But the experience with Beos (whom I recall opensourced their UI) shows the problem is nontechnical. I think Jordan's article holds the key to this situation. Apple might be the David that is required to take the desktop out from Microsoft's field and hopefully also will take us to a better league. FWIW, I also think Apple has a good chance now that MS is screwing up with their .net strategy. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 27 23: 4:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailf.telia.com (mailf.telia.com [194.22.194.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92E1C37B422 for ; Sun, 27 May 2001 23:04:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fredrik@speechcraft.com) Received: from d1o74.telia.com (d1o74.telia.com [62.20.224.241]) by mailf.telia.com (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4S64nc02341; Mon, 28 May 2001 08:04:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from molly.telia.com (t1o74p24.telia.com [62.20.224.24]) by d1o74.telia.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23827; Mon, 28 May 2001 08:04:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 08:05:12 +0000 (/etc/localtime) From: Fredrik Olausson X-Sender: fredrik@molly.telia.com To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: <3B11E61C.95D0BA0D@pitt.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > FWIW, I also > think Apple has a good chance now that MS is screwing up with their > .net strategy. Speaking of which, isn't "dot net" the perfect example of Microsoft extending its influence of the desktop to the server market? While the whole concept seems ludicrous to me, all of the sudden everyone is talking about Soap, C# and .net (and I still have nightmares about the pointy haired bosses sending me off on a C# bootcamp ;) -Fredrik To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 1:14:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E7E37B423 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 01:14:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA27490; Mon, 28 May 2001 02:13:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 02:06:04 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Cc: Fredrik Olausson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:28 AM 5/27/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Why don't you start your own BSD-licensed desktop project? Because for desktops -- and I know this is a controversial statement -- it seems that commercial is a better model than open source. All of the truly successful and well-accepted desktops are commercial, and there seem to be good reasons why this is so. >I'd say most users of BSD whom I know use linux as a GUI -- that is, >their window manager / desktop environment was developed on linux, >though it may be ported to run natively on FreeBSD. The "BSD >community" as such has made no contribution to the desktop, FVWM is essentially BSD-licensed. It's not exactly tearing up the charts. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 1:38:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEBC637B422 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 01:38:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4S8be012768; Mon, 28 May 2001 10:37:40 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 00:47:06 +0200 To: Jamie Bowden , Fredrik Olausson From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Cc: Jordan Hubbard , jmallett@xMach.org, dscheidt@tumbolia.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:36 PM -0700 5/27/01, Jamie Bowden wrote: > A friend of mine bought a new iBook at the Apple store in Tysons Corner on > Friday. The free OS X upgrade (and future bundled versions) will not ship > with the Developer CD. The Mac OS X box does ship with the Developer CD. > I guess Apple only wants people who upgrade their old Macs to do > developement. I bought a copy of MacOS X as soon as I could, but I still haven't taken it out of the plastic wrapper yet. And I won't -- not until they have proper support for Lucent/Agere WaveLAN/Orinoco 802.11b PC cards. Right now, if you want to do 802.11b on MacOS X, your only choice is to use Apple AirPort cards. For the moment, ignore the fact that they are really just Lucent/Agere WaveLAN/Orinoco cards that have had their external antennas chopped off, and Apple supports the Lucent/Agere WaveLAN/Orinoco cards under MacOS 9 as "AirPort PC Cards", and you no longer need the drivers available from Lucent/Agere (nor can you use them, even if you wanted to). Myself, now that MacOS X Server is about to be updated, based on the released version of MacOS X, I wouldn't expect to see the developer stuff being available for/with MacOS X much longer -- Apple really does want that stuff to be available to developers only, who are obviously all fat-cats with unlimited expense accounts, and can afford to pay the $500 or $1000 for MacOS X Server. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 1:51:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB92137B423 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 01:51:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4S8pTR25984 ; Mon, 28 May 2001 10:51:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA43969 ; Mon, 28 May 2001 10:52:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 10:52:05 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Message-ID: <20010528105205.B43555@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <3B11E61C.95D0BA0D@pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B11E61C.95D0BA0D@pitt.edu>; from pfg1+@pitt.edu on Mon, May 28, 2001 at 01:46:04AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pedro F. Giffuni said on May 28, 2001 at 01:46:04: > I think Jordan's article holds the key to this situation. Apple might > be the David that is required to take the desktop out from Microsoft's > field and hopefully also will take us to a better league. FWIW, I also > think Apple has a good chance now that MS is screwing up with their > .net strategy. All I really want is an open standard. I don't mind people sending me postscript or pdf generated from MS word; but if they're going to send me .doc files, I want the format to be well documented by Microsoft, so that I can convert it to whatever format I want. If everyone including Microsoft switched to some XML thing and agreed on some common standards for it, I really wouldn't care if 99% of the world continued to use Microsoft... In the absence of Microsoft taking the lead, it would be nice if the remaining word processor people, at least -- Applix, Corel, Staroffice/Sun, KDE, Abisource etc -- got together and hammered out something, and implemented it themselves. (Ditto for spreadsheets, presentations, etc, which I don't really deal with.) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 2:20:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13603.mail.yahoo.com (web13603.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A05C537B43C for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 02:20:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010528092008.46628.qmail@web13603.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13603.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 28 May 2001 02:20:08 PDT Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 02:20:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010527162252D.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Jordan Hubbard wrote: > You certainly don't let the unmitigated strangeness of your views > hold > you back, do ya? :) > > - Jordan LOL, Socrates is not your name, isn't it? So, who are you to talk about strangeness? Even more so unmitigated one. Dialectics works in mysterious ways... I just bought a fancy 7300/200 for $25... you pay for OS X first, then listen Jobs talking problems second - that's not unmitigated strangeness...at least, no accusations of borderline infringements and strangely unmitigative allusive conceptual parallels by transititvity this time... how about taking hyperbolic geometry of Lobachevsky for OS design modelling after OS X flops? FreeBSD is good :) > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/19113.html > > > > even da boy sez it's slow... at your expense they will fight the > > problem yet another 6 years __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 2:43: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC15237B42C for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 02:42:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4S9gVR33351 ; Mon, 28 May 2001 11:42:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA46557 ; Mon, 28 May 2001 11:43:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 11:43:01 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: fredrik@speechcraft.com, jmallett@xMach.org, dscheidt@tumbolia.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Compiler? (was: The desktop apathy) Message-ID: <20010528114301.F43555@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Jordan Hubbard , fredrik@speechcraft.com, jmallett@xMach.org, dscheidt@tumbolia.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010527121833P.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010527124659K.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010527124659K.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@osd.bsdi.com on Sun, May 27, 2001 at 12:46:59PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan Hubbard said on May 27, 2001 at 12:46:59: > > Speaking of which, If I buy a copy of MacOS X, will I get development > > tools and such along with it, or do I have to buy a third-party > > product? I've been meaning to get me one of those G4's and MacOS X to test > > it, but where can I get the programming tools for it? > > Yes, you'll get all the project manager / appbuilder stuff on a 2nd > CD, along with gcc, gdb, etc for command-line oriented development. What compiler is Mac OS X built with? gcc? or something else? If gcc, I'm thinking this must be the first commercial OS built with GNU tools. I'm toying with the idea of buying one of those ibooks, too. It would probably have been an easier decision if Mac OS X actually ran X natively. As things stand, most of my favourite programs will probably not run at all, or be pretty unstable... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 2:47:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sork.levonline.com (tistel.levonline.com [193.15.191.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A2D937B422 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 02:47:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fredrik@speechcraft.com) Received: from CTHULHU (t4o74p3.telia.com [62.20.225.123]) (authenticated) by sork.levonline.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4S9lMV25056 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 11:47:22 +0200 Message-ID: <001701c0e75b$42e79f90$0e0101c0@CTHULHU> From: "Fredrik Olausson" To: Subject: Compiler? (was: The desktop apathy) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 11:47:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- > I'm toying with the idea of buying one of those ibooks, too. It would > probably have been an easier decision if Mac OS X actually ran X > natively. As things stand, most of my favourite programs will > probably not run at all, or be pretty unstable... What would be a good system on which to run MacOS X? I've heard that the system needs a G4 as a minimum, so I guess a cheap, used, iMac is out of the question? -Fredrik To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 2:48: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 388CD37B424 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 02:48:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4S9luR34215 ; Mon, 28 May 2001 11:47:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA46846 ; Mon, 28 May 2001 11:48:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 11:48:33 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Fredrik Olausson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Message-ID: <20010528114833.G43555@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Fredrik Olausson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, May 28, 2001 at 02:06:04AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on May 28, 2001 at 02:06:04: > At 09:28 AM 5/27/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >Why don't you start your own BSD-licensed desktop project? > > Because for desktops -- and I know this is a controversial > statement -- it seems that commercial is a better model > than open source. Well, I myself said that I doubted the BSD license would be suitable. On the GPL side, I wouldn't give up on the KDE/Gnome people. As for commercial, Qt is available to them and not very expensive, so commercial companies can certainly use it (eg Opera), and Gtk/Gnomelibs are under LGPL and usable with commercial software. And Motif still exists, of course. Your GPL bogey is really not relevant here. > >I'd say most users of BSD whom I know use linux as a GUI -- that is, > >their window manager / desktop environment was developed on linux, > >though it may be ported to run natively on FreeBSD. The "BSD > >community" as such has made no contribution to the desktop, > > FVWM is essentially BSD-licensed. It's not exactly tearing up > the charts. Which was my point. However, it does have a non-negligible user base still. I didn't know about its license. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 3: 4:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2892537B422 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 03:04:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA14927; Mon, 28 May 2001 12:04:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <3B11E61C.95D0BA0D@pitt.edu> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 May 2001 12:04:03 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3B11E61C.95D0BA0D@pitt.edu> Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Pedro F. Giffuni" writes: > I do think you have a point here. Staroffice has practically all the > functionally of MS office (haven't checked the spreadsheet though) and > the license is restricted. However, even if the applications are > MS-compatible there seems to be something missing. Right. Half the functionality, half the speed, half the stability. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 3: 5:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E4B237B43E for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 03:05:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA14936; Mon, 28 May 2001 12:05:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Jordan Hubbard , fredrik@speechcraft.com, jmallett@xMach.org, dscheidt@tumbolia.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Compiler? (was: The desktop apathy) References: <20010527121833P.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010527124659K.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010528114301.F43555@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 May 2001 12:05:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010528114301.F43555@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > What compiler is Mac OS X built with? gcc? or something else? > > If gcc, I'm thinking this must be the first commercial OS built with > GNU tools. No, I believe NeXT was built with gcc (in fact, IIRC, that's where gcc's ObjectiveC support comes from). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 3: 5:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C570F37B50F for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 03:05:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA14947; Mon, 28 May 2001 12:05:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Bzdik BSD Cc: Jordan Hubbard , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs References: <20010528092008.46628.qmail@web13603.mail.yahoo.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 May 2001 12:05:32 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010528092008.46628.qmail@web13603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bzdik BSD writes: > LOL, Socrates is not your name, isn't it? So, who are you to talk about > strangeness? Even more so unmitigated one. Dialectics works in > mysterious ways... I just bought a fancy 7300/200 for $25... you pay > for OS X first, then listen Jobs talking problems second - that's not > unmitigated strangeness...at least, no accusations of borderline > infringements and strangely unmitigative allusive conceptual parallels > by transititvity this time... how about taking hyperbolic geometry of > Lobachevsky for OS design modelling after OS X flops? Stay away from that superglue, man... > FreeBSD is good :) That I can agree with. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 4:31: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12B7E37B43C for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 04:31:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4SBUr017079; Mon, 28 May 2001 13:30:53 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001701c0e75b$42e79f90$0e0101c0@CTHULHU> References: <001701c0e75b$42e79f90$0e0101c0@CTHULHU> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:26:27 +0200 To: "Fredrik Olausson" , From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Compiler? (was: The desktop apathy) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:47 AM +0200 5/28/01, Fredrik Olausson wrote: > What would be a good system on which to run MacOS X? I've heard that the > system needs a G4 as a minimum, so I guess a cheap, used, iMac is out of > the question? A newer G3 (such as an iMac) should work, and would be what I would consider to be the lowest-end machine you can expect to be functional. I wouldn't go for anything much slower than 350-400 Mhz, and make sure you've got at least 128MB of RAM (preferably more), and several gigabytes of disk space (MacOS X will take at least one GB all by itself). The first G3 machines (beige) won't officially be supported by Apple, but with some third-party help, might also be able to run MacOS X, and if they've had the processor upgraded (to a fast G4, or a pair of fast G4s), could even be pretty speedy MacOS X boxes. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 5: 2:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sork.levonline.com (tistel.levonline.com [193.15.191.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1127837B422 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 05:02:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fredrik@speechcraft.com) Received: from CTHULHU (t6o74p58.telia.com [212.181.216.178]) (authenticated) by sork.levonline.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4SC2SV11445; Mon, 28 May 2001 14:02:28 +0200 Message-ID: <003501c0e76e$22f7d520$0e0101c0@CTHULHU> From: "Fredrik Olausson" To: , "Brad Knowles" References: <001701c0e75b$42e79f90$0e0101c0@CTHULHU> Subject: Re: Compiler? (was: The desktop apathy) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 14:02:56 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- > A newer G3 (such as an iMac) should work, and would be what I > would consider to be the lowest-end machine you can expect to be > functional. I wouldn't go for anything much slower than 350-400 Mhz, > and make sure you've got at least 128MB of RAM (preferably more), and > several gigabytes of disk space (MacOS X will take at least one GB > all by itself). > > The first G3 machines (beige) won't officially be supported by > Apple, but with some third-party help, might also be able to run > MacOS X, and if they've had the processor upgraded (to a fast G4, or > a pair of fast G4s), could even be pretty speedy MacOS X boxes. Great, thanks! I always wanted a transparent, pink, Unix workstation ;) -Fredrik To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 7: 8:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dalek.xmach.org (dalek.xMach.org [209.42.222.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CE5E537B423 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 07:08:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@xMach.org) Received: (qmail 40679 invoked by uid 1000); 28 May 2001 10:08:13 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 28 May 2001 10:08:13 -0000 Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 06:08:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Jordan Hubbard , , , Subject: Re: Compiler? (was: The desktop apathy) In-Reply-To: <20010528114301.F43555@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: <20010528060732.X40676-100000@Dalek.xMach.ORG> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What compiler is Mac OS X built with? gcc? or something else? gcc > > If gcc, I'm thinking this must be the first commercial OS built with > GNU tools. No, NEXTSTEP, among others. NEXTSTEP is significant though, cause FSF successfully got the ObjectiveC additions released under the GPL. > > R > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 9: 7:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1A9137B422 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 09:07:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4SG7eO30699; Mon, 28 May 2001 09:07:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: bzdik@yahoo.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs In-Reply-To: <20010528092008.46628.qmail@web13603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010527162252D.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010528092008.46628.qmail@web13603.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010528090740N.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 09:07:40 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 23 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 02:20:08 -0700 (PDT) > LOL, Socrates is not your name, isn't it? So, who are you to talk about That's a double negative so I'm not sure just what you mean, but I think that's explained by further context: > unmitigated strangeness...at least, no accusations of borderline > infringements and strangely unmitigative allusive conceptual parallels > by transititvity this time... how about taking hyperbolic geometry of > Lobachevsky for OS design modelling after OS X flops? And now I understand... You're one of those grad students who ate too much acid during rush week and was never quite the same afterwards. I'm quite familiar with the type since I've run into a number of you guys while walking down Telegraph Avenue in Berkeley. In fact, I might even have run into YOU at some point. Have you ever covered your head in aluminum foil and mumbled about microwaves, the CIA and spare change? If so, you're welcome for the quarter. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 10:12:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from messiah.megadeb.org (cpe.atm0-0-0-218131.arcnxx5.customer.tele.dk [62.242.79.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A69F37B423 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 10:12:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chopra@runbox.com) Received: (from chopra@localhost) by messiah.megadeb.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4SHDb812205 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 28 May 2001 19:13:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from chopra) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 19:13:01 +0200 From: Munish Chopra To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Interesting quote from Bill Joy Message-ID: <20010528191301.A12149@messiah.megadeb.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "If I had to rewrite Unix from scratch, I could do it in a summer, easily," says Joy. "And it would be much better. A much, much better job. The ideas are old." The above is a quote from a Salon article (http://www.salon.com/tech/fsp/2000/05/16/chapter_2_part_one/index.html), run about a year ago. This one has amused me over the past year several times - is he just blowing steam (I think the article rather politely says he always had a big mouth, and still does), or has he since made some more comments in this direction? The article is quite interesting by the way (that is unless you've been BSD for a long time already). -- -Munish To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 10:52: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5175437B422 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 10:52:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from europax@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010528175203.DERI14179.femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com>; Mon, 28 May 2001 10:52:03 -0700 Message-ID: <3B129005.C40113A5@home.com> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 10:51:01 -0700 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: bzdik@yahoo.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs References: <20010527162252D.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010528092008.46628.qmail@web13603.mail.yahoo.com> <20010528090740N.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > From: Bzdik BSD > Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs > Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 02:20:08 -0700 (PDT) > > > LOL, Socrates is not your name, isn't it? So, who are you to talk about > > That's a double negative so I'm not sure just what you mean, but > I think that's explained by further context: > > > unmitigated strangeness...at least, no accusations of borderline > > infringements and strangely unmitigative allusive conceptual parallels > > by transititvity this time... how about taking hyperbolic geometry of > > Lobachevsky for OS design modelling after OS X flops? > > And now I understand... You're one of those grad students who ate too > much acid during rush week and was never quite the same afterwards. > I'm quite familiar with the type since I've run into a number of you > guys while walking down Telegraph Avenue in Berkeley. In fact, I might > even have run into YOU at some point. Have you ever covered your head > in aluminum foil and mumbled about microwaves, the CIA and spare > change? If so, you're welcome for the quarter. > > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Wow man, you're bringin back memories! On an even weirder note, the whole time I was an EECS student at Berkeley, I never once used Unix (early 80's). It wasn't until I first tried FreeBSD that I really knew what it was. Very bizarre. Rob. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 10:54:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4EA837B423 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 10:54:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA56195; Mon, 28 May 2001 13:54:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:54:06 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Munish Chopra Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting quote from Bill Joy Message-ID: <20010528135406.A56165@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20010528191301.A12149@messiah.megadeb.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010528191301.A12149@messiah.megadeb.org>; from chopra@runbox.com on Mon, May 28, 2001 at 07:13:01PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you asked anyone about any major project that they've worked on, they'd say something similar. And Joy worked on BSD *how* long ago -- fifteen years ago or so? I look at some of the books I did back in 1992 and think "You know, if I knew then what I know now..." I can't bear to look at my work from 1986. It's actively painful. In 2011, I fully expect to look back on the BSD book I'm writing now and say, "Oh, how ignorant and clumsy I was then..." I think that if someone can't say the same thing, they aren't growing. And that's just sad. ==ml On Mon, May 28, 2001 at 07:13:01PM +0200, Munish Chopra wrote: > "If I had to rewrite Unix from scratch, I could do it in a summer, > easily," says Joy. "And it would be much better. A much, much better > job. The ideas are old." > > The above is a quote from a Salon article > (http://www.salon.com/tech/fsp/2000/05/16/chapter_2_part_one/index.html), > run about a year ago. This one has amused me over the past year several > times - is he just blowing steam (I think the article rather politely > says he always had a big mouth, and still does), or has he since made > some more comments in this direction? > > The article is quite interesting by the way (that is unless you've been > BSD for a long time already). > > -- > -Munish > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 10:58:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E964B37B424 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 10:58:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from europax@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010528175831.DKWB14179.femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com> for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 10:58:31 -0700 Message-ID: <3B12918A.F463B6C5@home.com> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 10:57:30 -0700 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Any FreeBSD NEC (MoM simulator) users? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm wondering if anyone else does antenna modelling and if they do it using FreeBSD? There are some wonderful cheap (<$100) Windows programs for doing this, but it just seems that I ought to be able to do it with FreeBSD. I have successfully compiled the Fortran NEC2 program. Now I am wondering what to do with it? I found some web sites with all sorts of scripts and utilities, but nothing strikes me as an easy way of interfacing with NEC. Thanks, Rob. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 11: 3:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4616937B42C for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 11:03:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4SI2n027979; Mon, 28 May 2001 20:02:49 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010528191301.A12149@messiah.megadeb.org> References: <20010528191301.A12149@messiah.megadeb.org> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 20:02:19 +0200 To: Munish Chopra , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Interesting quote from Bill Joy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:13 PM +0200 5/28/01, Munish Chopra wrote: > The above is a quote from a Salon article > (http://www.salon.com/tech/fsp/2000/05/16/chapter_2_part_one/index.html), > run about a year ago. This one has amused me over the past year several > times - is he just blowing steam (I think the article rather politely > says he always had a big mouth, and still does), or has he since made > some more comments in this direction? Bill Joy is extremely talented person, but many people have tried, and so far as I know, none have succeeded. I have to believe that at least some of them are of the same caliber as Bill Joy. If Bill really could do it, I'd like to see the results. Until then, I'd like to see him try. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 12:31:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smyk.apk.net (smyk.apk.net [207.54.158.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB92B37B424 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 12:31:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@krivis.com) Received: from [192.168.1.60] (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by smyk.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with ESMTP id f4SJVPs24838 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 15:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 15:31:19 -0400 From: Stuart Krivis To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reiser and BSD. Message-ID: <14017594.991063874@[192.168.1.60]> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523194149.04faba10@localhost> References: <20010523190002.A4150@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d><3B0BE858. 738854C@asme.org><20010523190002.A4150@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> <4.3.2.7.2.20010523194149.04faba10@localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0a6 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Linux is pretty much a closed system. You're either in the GPL barrel, or you're not using Linux. BSD is much more open. The telling point is that the BSDL doesn't force you into keeping the code open. The GPL forces you to tread the Golden Path of Righteousness. :-) And lo, RMS received the Word and it was good... The outcome of the lawsuits by USL and the others is kind of funny. By tying up BSD for a while, they prompted Linus into rolling his own, rather than working on BSD. Now Linux is getting all the mindshare and the whole Novell/SCO empire is crumbling. (Or has crumbled.) --On Wednesday, May 23, 2001 7:42 PM -0600 Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:56 PM 5/23/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >> Linux came out with a "complete" system while BSD was tied up in >> lawsuits. I think FreeBSD 2.0 was the first version of FreeBSD that >> was free of the possibility of lawsuits from the holders of the Unix >> copyright. > > No one is EVER free of the possibility of lawsuits, at least not in > the U.S. of A. Whether those lawsuits have merits is another matter. ;-) > > --Brett Glass > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 12:37:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F9037B423 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 12:37:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1045"@[136.142.20.175]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K43P47TD2E0002HV@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 28 May 2001 15:37:14 EST Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 14:30:35 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: The desktop apathy To: Fredrik Olausson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B12994B.7C9E0674@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think they are trying hard to solve all they problems with a magic wand, ignoring how they got into that situation in the first place. The idea is making Windows OS and office fully integrated in a way that you will not be able to work without paying them monthly fees. Actually, more than the expected revenue, one of the key factors to understand is the trial: they want to make a division impossible or perhaps irrelevant. What I think is broken in their strategy is that people don't want computers only to be on the Internet, and there's where Apple may shine. Even with all these nonsense critics Apple has received, it is clear (for me) that the "Opensource community" (if such a beast exists) is embracing Apple. Most of the projects out there are pushing ports to MacOS X: Mozilla, Staroffice, OpenAFS, UDI and there's already Qt. I think if the BSDs hang together with Apple we could see many benefits... My forecast: 1) Linux PPC will be completely out of the markey by both Mac OS X and the native BSDs (which have been consistently server oriented up till now but will become somewhat better desktops). 2) Darwin for Intel ushered by the BSDs will gain more strength. 3) Growing interest opens the door for Mac OS X on Intel (highly unexpected but the possible revenue might be high enough). 4) Mac OS X jumps from 20% to 40% while Microsoft is trying to clean their act from the dot net fiasco. A time frame is tough...maybe 5 years, maybe more :). Pedro. Fredrik Olausson wrote: > > > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > FWIW, I also > > think Apple has a good chance now that MS is screwing up with their > > .net strategy. > > Speaking of which, isn't "dot net" the perfect example of Microsoft > extending its influence of the desktop to the server market? While the > whole concept seems ludicrous to me, all of the sudden everyone is talking > about Soap, C# and .net (and I still have nightmares about the pointy > haired bosses sending me off on a C# bootcamp ;) > > -Fredrik > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 13:10:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 146C637B423 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 13:10:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id BD40166B00E; Mon, 28 May 2001 14:01:53 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 14:01:53 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Message-ID: <20010528140153.A58103@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, May 28, 2001 at 02:06:04AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 28, 2001 at 02:06:04AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > than open source. All of the truly successful and well-accepted > desktops are commercial, and there seem to be good reasons > why this is so. What reasons?? There are lots of commercial desktops that are crap. Look at CDE. IMO, BSD/Linux don't have a cool desktop because no one has written one yet. But I think we will get there yet. Sincerly, Chris Moline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 13:59:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hunden.levonline.com (tistel.levonline.com [193.15.191.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE8E837B423 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 13:59:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fredrik@speechcraft.com) Received: from palpatine (t4o74p42.telia.com [62.20.225.162]) (authenticated) by hunden.levonline.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4SKxJ514403; Mon, 28 May 2001 22:59:19 +0200 Message-ID: <001301c0e7b9$9771fd90$2d0101c0@headquarters.local> From: "Fredrik Olausson" To: "Chris Moline" , References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <20010528140153.A58103@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 23:03:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- > IMO, BSD/Linux don't have a cool desktop because no one has written one > yet. But I think we will get there yet. While I like CDE in a sort of nostalgic way (thinking back to the days at school...) I must say that KDE 2 is really getting places! I built it on my Slackware box some weeks ago, and it is very good indeed. The graphics are well done - not too much, but just enough - it is rather stable and all-in-all a very nice environment to work in. I just got it precompiled for FreeBSD the other day, so I'm going to install it on the big box soon :) I used to be (well... "am") a die-hard fvwm fan, but KDE feels like a good-looking windows desktop now - it feels like a desktop you just sit down at to do some work. I think "natural" is the word I'm looking for here. -Fredrik To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 14:33:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5C937B423 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 14:33:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01688; Mon, 28 May 2001 15:33:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528152438.00e5ff00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 15:26:03 -0600 To: Fredrik Olausson , David Scheidt From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Cc: Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:16 PM 5/26/2001, Fredrik Olausson wrote: >For an analogy, take RedHat >- the company has made big bucks un Linux, They have been profitable for one quarter, ever. And that was long ago. The development of GPLed software is not a viable business. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 14:41:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189E337B424 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 14:41:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01750; Mon, 28 May 2001 15:41:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528152841.048833d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 15:33:50 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Cc: Fredrik Olausson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010528114833.G43555@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:48 AM 5/28/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Well, I myself said that I doubted the BSD license would be suitable. It would be MORE suitable, certainly, than the GPL in that it would not actively destroy businesses. However, a purely commercial model is better still. >Your GPL bogey is really not relevant here. The GPL is not an imaginary "bogey" -- it is a real an serious threat to the viability of businesses. Especially new and small businesses. (Witness Eazel.) The danger of the GPLed desktops is that they will kill off the commercial efforts not by being better but by wrecking the market that those efforts need in order to thrive. >> FVWM is essentially BSD-licensed. It's not exactly tearing up >> the charts. > >Which was my point. However, it does have a non-negligible user base >still. I didn't know about its license. Yes, it does have a non-negigible user base and would be a great start for a desktop with a truly free license. But again, I would rather encourage the development of commercial desktop environments. The sort of excruciating testing, research, marketing, training, etc. required by a truly user friendly desktop environment are simply best supported by a commercial business model. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 14:45:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9013A37B422 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 14:45:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01790; Mon, 28 May 2001 15:45:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528153532.0488ac10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 15:38:14 -0600 To: Chris Moline , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: <20010528140153.A58103@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:01 PM 5/28/2001, Chris Moline wrote: >What reasons?? There are lots of commercial desktops that are crap. A commercial model is no guarantee of quality, but it may well be a prerequisite. One of the most underrated desktops -- and one I would dearly love to see ported to the BSDs -- is GeoWorks. Tiny, super-efficient, object-oriented, and INCREDIBLY fast. It was shoehorned into MS-DOS with great effort.... The nasty, snaky code that retrofitted it into this environment could be removed, leaving a REALLY neat GUI. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 14:54:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from messiah.megadeb.org (cpe.atm0-0-0-218131.arcnxx5.customer.tele.dk [62.242.79.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123B137B422 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 14:54:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chopra@runbox.com) Received: (from chopra@localhost) by messiah.megadeb.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4SLtst12973 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 28 May 2001 23:55:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from chopra) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 23:55:53 +0200 From: Munish Chopra To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Message-ID: <20010528235553.G12149@messiah.megadeb.org> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <20010528140153.A58103@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <001301c0e7b9$9771fd90$2d0101c0@headquarters.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001301c0e7b9$9771fd90$2d0101c0@headquarters.local>; from fredrik@speechcraft.com on Mon, May 28, 2001 at 11:03:04PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 28, 2001 at 11:03:04PM +0200, Fredrik Olausson wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > IMO, BSD/Linux don't have a cool desktop because no one has written one > > yet. But I think we will get there yet. > > While I like CDE in a sort of nostalgic way (thinking back to the days at > school...) I must say that KDE 2 is really getting places! I built it on my > Slackware box some weeks ago, and it is very good indeed. The graphics are > well done - not too much, but just enough - it is rather stable and > all-in-all a very nice environment to work in. I just got it precompiled for > FreeBSD the other day, so I'm going to install it on the big box soon :) > > I used to be (well... "am") a die-hard fvwm fan, but KDE feels like a > good-looking windows desktop now - it feels like a desktop you just sit down > at to do some work. I think "natural" is the word I'm looking for here. I have to agree here. After seriously working with both KDE and Gnome for the past way-too-long, KDE is moving to a generally usable stage much faster. It seems to be winning out on two big points: Speed (it's both fast _and_ snappy, which unfortunately can't be said for the latest Gnome), and Konqueror, which I guess is KDE's killer-app. I used to be more of a Gnome guy, but KDE is making leaps and bounds that are hard to ignore. Personally, I still 'feel the bloat' though. Luckily, the kdebase2 port removes a lot of that, but I guess I'm just not a Desktop Environment kind of guy. Simple window manager, and fast please (BlackBox anyone?). But KDE is promising less bloat and more speed, and since they seem to keep what they promise, I can't help but look forward to the next releases. -- -Munish To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 18:24:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13601.mail.yahoo.com (web13601.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7EFD037B423 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 18:24:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010529012410.47485.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.122.12.184] by web13601.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 28 May 2001 18:24:10 PDT Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:24:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010528090740N.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Jordan Hubbard wrote: > That's a double negative so I'm not sure just what you mean, but that was a hint, but you didn't get no nothing out of it... > I think that's explained by further context: keep thinking, a man who works too much has no time to think > And now I understand... You're one of those grad students who ate > too > much acid during rush week and was never quite the same afterwards. > I'm quite familiar with the type since I've run into a number of you > guys while walking down Telegraph Avenue in Berkeley. In fact, I > might > even have run into YOU at some point. Have you ever covered your > head > in aluminum foil and mumbled about microwaves, the CIA and spare > change? If so, you're welcome for the quarter. > > - Jordan Jordan. profiling is not your forte...acid and cia were uknown where i grew up, so was mickey mouse... Anyway, it's not about me or you: my point is that Mac OS still had the best desktop in business until they cranked out this slow, buggy and unfunctional monstrosity you happen to like so much. Your point: since it's Unix underneath - anything goes. You simply never had to be productive in desktop environment since you never needed to ...Aside from this no OS, no Theory, no Religion can be universal... unless you're a Marxist. Unix failed to conquer entire cybervoid for 30 years...needs of desktop users and admins are vastly different...it's still amazes me how ignorant and stubborn arrogant techies are when it comes to real business outside of their domain, it's not only derivative trading where they fail. You are not alone : Sir Isaac Newton blew it too, so keep cranking out good code and never try to go in business for yourself - you'll need a lot of quarters. you are welcome in advance. And keep the change: it comes handy in Niederlanden - wish you good weather there and be careful with real bear and real PhD's :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 21:21:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FBF537B424 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 21:21:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4T4LSK69107; Tue, 29 May 2001 04:21:28 GMT Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 04:21:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting quote from Bill Joy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 28 May 2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > If Bill really could do it, I'd like to see the results. Until > then, I'd like to see him try. Yeah -- I mean -- shit. Who does he thing he is? jkh.pl? :) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 28 21:23:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-1.enteract.com (smtp-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E53C137B422 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 21:23:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61FC56075; Mon, 28 May 2001 23:23:13 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 23:23:13 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: To: Bzdik BSD Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs In-Reply-To: <20010529012410.47485.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 28 May 2001, Bzdik BSD wrote: :--- Jordan Hubbard wrote: : : :> And now I understand... You're one of those grad students who ate :> too :> much acid during rush week and was never quite the same afterwards. : :Jordan. profiling is not your forte...acid and cia were uknown where i :grew up, so was mickey mouse... Ah! So you're a space alien! It all starts to make sense now! -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 1:53:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E9A837B422 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 01:53:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4T8ra011935; Tue, 29 May 2001 10:53:36 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010529012410.47485.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010529012410.47485.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:40:35 +0200 To: Bzdik BSD From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:24 PM -0700 5/28/01, Bzdik BSD wrote: > Unix failed to conquer entire cybervoid for 30 > years... Right, so who cares? There's plenty of room in this world for a little diversity of OSes. > needs of desktop users and admins are vastly different... To a degree, that's certainly true. However, that said, if there is any company in the world that understands what desktop users need (and want) more than any other, it would be Apple. Therefore, if there is any company in the world that has the best possible chance of being able to deliver on having the full power of Unix under the hood, but being able to hide that behind a really good GUI for desktop users, that would be Apple. > And keep the change: it comes handy in Niederlanden - wish you good > weather there and be careful with real bear and real PhD's :) As someone living in Belgium, and about two hours away from the country in question, I can safely say that it is *NOT* "Niederlanden". Most appropriately, it would probably be "Nederlands". Moreover, since modern beer was invented/discovered by a Belgian monk, I can safely say that it is not spelled "bear". At least, I have to assume that you meant a fermented alcoholic beverage, as opposed to a large member of the Ursine family of mostly vegetarian quadrupeds. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 1:53:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2E2A37B422 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 01:53:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4T8rh012051; Tue, 29 May 2001 10:53:43 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:52:30 +0200 To: Kris Kirby From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Interesting quote from Bill Joy Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:21 AM +0000 5/29/01, Kris Kirby wrote: > Yeah -- I mean -- shit. Who does he thing he is? jkh.pl? :) Actually, at the moment, we should be comparing him to jkh.nl, and not jkh.pl -- to the best of my knowledge, Jordan is still in the Netherlands, and has not yet flown over to Poland. ;-) Seriously, Bill Joy may well be more capable than Jordan of writing an OS. However, I don't think that Jordan would ever have the hubris to assume that he could do the whole thing on his own, over a summer vacation. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 2:22:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C38C237B626 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 02:22:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4T9MPR83066 ; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:22:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA04247 ; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:23:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:23:02 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Chris Moline , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Message-ID: <20010529112302.A3636@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <20010528140153.A58103@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528153532.0488ac10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528153532.0488ac10@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, May 28, 2001 at 03:38:14PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on May 28, 2001 at 15:38:14: > At 02:01 PM 5/28/2001, Chris Moline wrote: > > > >What reasons?? There are lots of commercial desktops that are crap. > > A commercial model is no guarantee of quality, but it may well be > a prerequisite. > > One of the most underrated desktops -- and one I would dearly love > to see ported to the BSDs -- is GeoWorks. Tiny, super-efficient, > object-oriented, and INCREDIBLY fast. If you want fast, I'd suggest xfce. I haven't used it in over a year, but when I last used it I was very impressed. The problem on the desktop is not a lack of choices, not even a lack of quality. Some people on the linux side argue that having KDE, GNOME and various other things is confusing for a third-party developer, and they could be right. Many people, on this list too, seem to agree KDE has what it takes. The problem is the applicationss, and it's not really a lack of applications either -- just a lack of the sort of applications people are used to in the windows world. And even here, KDE has covered a *huge* amount of ground in the last 18 months (KOffice, Konqueror, Kmail, etc) -- and they've now declared that all their infrastructure is in place, working, and reasonably problem-free, so they can concentrate on the applications side. I expect great things from them in the next 18 months. - R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 3:46:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13602.mail.yahoo.com (web13602.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 81A0E37B43C for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 03:46:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010529104636.31597.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13602.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 29 May 2001 03:46:36 PDT Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 03:46:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Brad Knowles wrote: > Moreover, since modern beer was invented/discovered by a Belgian > monk, I can safely say that it is not spelled "bear". At least, I > have to assume that you meant a fermented alcoholic beverage, as > opposed to a large member of the Ursine family of mostly vegetarian > quadrupeds. > the ones that love salmon ...you could call this a vegetarian pastime :) I was trying to give our gentleman-profiler a few more hints, don't spoil the process as for beer invention, talk to monks from {Monken on Isar}Munchen :)you'll end up fighting the best beer is made by friends of Joseph Schweik anyway...no matter what you say... they also are the best hockey players...Belgian chocolate is undisputedly superior to anything else {watch this line}in its product cathegory. Besides, why power of Unix on desktop? Haven't they failed this with NeXT, the biggest flop of Jobz's? My neighbourhood restaurant has already QNX installed, so does NASA...you still dreaming? I spent 9 hours today doing my regular gigs in mac OS 8.6, and believe me: I tried them all. For what I do, the *productivity* is still on a Mac Classic desktop. Black Holes suck, so does Mac OSX dock. Big time. As a toy, it's elegant enough and "ugly as Unix" is still true, just take a gander at Solaris desktop. But power to serve is here, no way of denying it. like power to create for ten+ years without reading a single manual is still in MacLand. No unixoid genius could come up with this for the three decades. None. That simple. Not even the one who was reading while[still] being potty trained. Unix on every desktop, is it like chicken in every pot? just for the hack of it? dead end and waste of time/money. by the time you'll come up with some usable draft, the desktop abstraction will be irrelevant. While servers may still be needed...and who's going to pay money for every stinkin app? you? you can live with gnumatics, kblowers, etc. Any pro designer working with GIMP? You giving me fits, Moysha... it's like serving Internet app with MS DOS. Not yet. AOL and Adobe, Global Village and Broderbund, Cassady & Green, etc. They started as Apple shops. Where are they now, in NeXT land? How about Power Computing? That was very opensourcy of Apple to cut its own branches... 'Uhu' said the vegetarian bear tearing two fishies at once and sipping Pilsner with carbonated caviar while Apple/BSD folk is still experimenting with acid. I will buy into this pipe dream, if you succeed first thing tomorrow. Yet today I have to store my files on FreeBSD, while making my living on Macs. For tomorrow's gig I have (among others) to reconstruct a Vietnamese doc that another believer ruined after trying to save it from Quark straight into pdf in 7 billion Windows 2000 Professional environment. Still doesn't do PostScript properly after all those years. Talk about real assignments and real deadlines set by someone who doesn't need to know about all joys of manipulating millions of Schmitt triggers inside that boxy. my point: in production environment focus on what you do best, if you have luxury to chose. As a businessman, Jobs is a loser, not a comeback kid. And the last quarter earnings filings are rifle with creative acounting , btw. After all Apple did to cloners, any talk about open source "community" marching with Apple into 41 degree proof StrawberryFieldLandia is an act of infantilesque intellectual prostitution. are you guys that desperate? or you just stuck in your MSFT passion? nothing new, but still stranno at times even after all those years under the Moon.la vida. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 4:45:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32E2337B622 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 04:45:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4TBj2R01627 ; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:45:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA10326 ; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:45:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 13:45:39 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Bzdik BSD Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs Message-ID: <20010529134539.E3636@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010529104636.31597.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010529104636.31597.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com>; from bzdik@yahoo.com on Tue, May 29, 2001 at 03:46:36AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bzdik BSD said on May 29, 2001 at 03:46:36: > > Moreover, since modern beer was invented/discovered by a Belgian > > monk, I can safely say that it is not spelled "bear". At least, I > > have to assume that you meant a fermented alcoholic beverage, as > > opposed to a large member of the Ursine family of mostly vegetarian > > quadrupeds. > > > the ones that love salmon ...you could call this a vegetarian pastime > :) > I was trying to give our gentleman-profiler a few more hints, don't > spoil the process as for beer invention, talk to monks from {Monken > on Isar}Munchen :)you'll end up fighting > the best beer is made by friends of Joseph Schweik anyway...no matter > what you say... they also are the best hockey players...Belgian > chocolate is undisputedly superior to anything else {watch this line}in > its product cathegory. -etc, etc, snipped- I don't think this is a space alien -- more likely a computer program (especially with a name like that). There's a similar, but much more coherent, program (to generate postmodern text) at http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/community/postmodern.html (follow the link given there) But neither that, nor this, yet come close to passing the Turing test. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 5: 5:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (usr.srcsys.org [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 74A4D37B424 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 05:05:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 27098 invoked by uid 1000); 29 May 2001 12:01:28 -0000 Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 08:01:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joseph A. Mallett" X-X-Sender: To: Bzdik BSD Cc: Brad Knowles , Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs In-Reply-To: <20010529104636.31597.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > AOL and Adobe, Global Village and Broderbund, Cassady & Green, etc. > They started as Apple shops. Where are they now, in NeXT land? How > about Power Computing? That was very opensourcy of Apple to cut its own > branches... I thought AOL started as text-mode in DOS? I also thought that Adobe has very few ``original'' applications, and those that they do have supported HPUX, Solaris, and IRIX for a _Long_ time (though they have trimmed the amount of unix support as the workstation world moved to Windows [Windows hasn't always dominated workstation markets as it does now]), and applications like FrameMaker were perfect under NEXTSTEP. Hell, the demo copy of FrameMaker (1.0 or 2.0???)beta I have with my NEXTSTEP 0.9 install is relatively kickass. -- [ Joseph Mallett ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ FreeBSD, NetBSD, & xMach User; (Obj)C(++) Coder ] [ http://xMach.org ] -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS d-- s+:++ a--- C+++ UB++++ P+++ L- E---- W++ N+ o-- K- w++ O M+ V PS+ PE- Y+ PGP++ t++ 5-- X+ R tv- b++ DI+ D--- G e* h! r% z+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 5:54:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B4037B422 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 05:54:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4TCsIs26929; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:54:18 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010529104636.31597.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010529104636.31597.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:53:34 +0200 To: Bzdik BSD From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:46 AM -0700 5/29/01, Bzdik BSD wrote: > I was trying to give our gentleman-profiler a few more hints, don't > spoil the process Seeing as Jordan has been to Nederlands at least once or twice before (he was present for the launch of the Netherlands FreeBSD Users Group, where he first announced the merger of Walnut Creek and BSDi), I don't think that any hints I might drop would be likely to give him much additional hints. > as for beer invention, talk to monks from {Monken > on Isar}Munchen :)you'll end up fighting When do they claim to have invented it? What was later to become the Abbaye d'Orval (in southern Belgium) was established in 1070 (see ), and on the 9th March in 1132 it was formally inhabited by monks of the Cistercian order. Later, they followed the even more austere La Trappe model, from whence comes the term "Trappiste", which may only be legally applied to the five surviving monasteries of that order in Belgium (and one in the Netherlands), which also happen to produce beer according to the original methods (best known is Chimay, but there is also Orval, Rochefort, Westmalle, and Westvleteren). Indeed, they appear to have been brewing beer at Orval, virtually since it was founded (from ): Throughout the long history of Orval, there has probably always been a brewery at the monastery. Various facts corroborate this idea: topographical references on old drawings; a detailed description of production left by a Franciscan visitor three hundred years ago; an area called the "hop-field" very close to the monastery. To brew beer was customary in these areas little-suited to vine-growing. Beer was first and foremost considered for its nourishing properties: it was called "liquid bread". > the best beer is made by friends of Joseph Schweik anyway...no matter > what you say... Who? Anyway, as we know, the definition of "best" is always one of personal opinion and relative to their particular preferences, but many beer experts have considered Belgian Trappiste beers to be the best in the world. From Michael Jackson's "Beer Hunter" site (see , Published in Print: FEB 2, 1991; Published in: The Independent): Chastity, poverty and a pint They don't talk about it much, but Trappist monks have been brewing good strong beer for ages, writes Michael Jackson As my beliefs do not require me to give up any food or drink for Lent (which begins in the middle of this month), I shall instead add a pleasure. I shall buy myself enough Trappist beer to see me through to Easter. > Belgian > chocolate is undisputedly superior to anything else {watch this line}in > its product cathegory. Again, "different strokes for different folks". That said, there are a number of world-class chocolatiers in Belgium, some of whom are world-famous and much beloved by royalty and high government officials around the world. Myself, I can eat quite a large quantity of chocolate, but the first place I've found that creates what I would call "Haute Chocolat" is Pierre Marcolini, and even I can only eat a few pieces at a time of their stuff. > Besides, why power of Unix on desktop? Haven't they failed this with > NeXT, the biggest flop of Jobz's? My neighbourhood restaurant has > already QNX installed, so does NASA...you still dreaming? The key problem is that many application programs are not as well written as they should be, so when they crash, if the operating system underneath them is not itself sufficiently robust, the risk is that the application going down will take the OS with it. This is precisely what happens on both Macintosh and PCs. One could argue that Windows NT is a solution to this problem, but it is not a multi-user OS, and suffers from a number of other design problems. IMO, the best solution for these problems is to have the full power of the Unix OS on the desktop. However, for reasons of user (and programmer) friendliness, you also need a good GUI and programming tools available, as well as a large enough mass market that you can attract the kinds of programmers writing the kinds of programs that your customers will want to use on the desktop. > I spent 9 hours today doing my regular gigs in mac OS 8.6, and believe > me: I tried them all. For what I do, the *productivity* is still on a > Mac Classic desktop. Black Holes suck, so does Mac OSX dock. Big time. It takes a while to get used to any new environment. And MacOS X/Aqua is a pretty big change over the classic "Platinum" MacOS environment. However, I've read quite a few articles by people who trashed MacOS X as much (or more) than you, but who became used to the changes and even preferred them, after sufficiently acclimating to the new environment. All it takes is time. And until you've put in that time, you really have no reason (or right) to treat it the way you have. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 6:29:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB50637B422 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 06:29:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4TDTDs03276; Tue, 29 May 2001 15:29:14 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:25:30 +0200 To: "Joseph A. Mallett" , Bzdik BSD From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:01 AM -0400 5/29/01, Joseph A. Mallett wrote: > I thought AOL started as text-mode in DOS? Actually, AOL got their start in 1982 as Quantum Computer Services, and made a 300 baud modem module for the original Atari game consoles. That was how they got their start. In fact, many companies paid AOL money to port their software to support a virtual on-line service exclusively for their hardware -- the original AppleLink (for Apple ][ and //e computers) was done this way, as well as the later eWorld. There is one and only one platform that AOL has ever written their software for and which the OS vendor did *NOT* pay them for this privilege, namely Microsoft. And that was a big "bet the company" type of decision. Nevertheless, they really took off, and this was the launching pad for the company we now know. Indeed, when I first started working at AOL, my office was just down the hall from one of the original "core four" that founded the company, and he had a literal museum of old bits-n-bobs of things that had been produced over the years. He helped instill a real sense of historical perspective on many of the employees I knew. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 10:29:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CE5237B424 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 10:29:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10631; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:28:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010529112012.052768c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:21:39 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Cc: Chris Moline , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010529112302.A3636@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528153532.0488ac10@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <20010528140153.A58103@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528153532.0488ac10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:23 AM 5/29/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >The problem is the >applicationss, and it's not really a lack of applications either -- >just a lack of the sort of applications people are used to in the >windows world. And even here, KDE has covered a *huge* amount of >ground in the last 18 months (KOffice, Konqueror, Kmail, etc) -- and >they've now declared that all their infrastructure is in place, They're all GPLed. This means that there will be little or no other development for the platform in their product categories, because -- thanks to the GPL's nastiness -- they will kill the market. Commercial developers will avoid the platform and it will languish. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 10:41:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 813A237B422 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 10:41:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4THfkR53180 ; Tue, 29 May 2001 19:41:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA28502 ; Tue, 29 May 2001 19:42:24 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:42:24 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Chris Moline , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Message-ID: <20010529194223.P3636@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <20010528140153.A58103@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528153532.0488ac10@localhost> <20010529112302.A3636@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010529112012.052768c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010529112012.052768c0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, May 29, 2001 at 11:21:39AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on May 29, 2001 at 11:21:39: > At 03:23 AM 5/29/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >The problem is the > >applicationss, and it's not really a lack of applications either -- > >just a lack of the sort of applications people are used to in the > >windows world. And even here, KDE has covered a *huge* amount of > >ground in the last 18 months (KOffice, Konqueror, Kmail, etc) -- and > >they've now declared that all their infrastructure is in place, > > They're all GPLed. I don't care. Rather, I'm quite happy with that. If I were writing a commercial quality word processor for free, the GPL is the licence I'd choose. > This means that there will be little or no > other development for the platform in their product categories, > because -- thanks to the GPL's nastiness -- they will kill the > market. Commercial developers will avoid the platform and it > will languish. Commercial developers may avoid the platform (they would avoid it even more if KDE, Gnome, and other GPL stuff never existed and our only option was FVWM). But it won't languish. That's my point. Would you rather pay $5000 per seat or whatever it was for crap like CDE? That's where we'd be if the GPL'd alternatives didn't exist. Or more likely, we'd have nothing. commercial people were not falling over each other to develop for FreeBSD three years ago, when the GPL'd desktop projects barely existed, and there's no reason to believe they're excited about this market now. - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 11:38:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A14237B422 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:38:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 154oNF-000334-00; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:37:45 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:37:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 27 May 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I'd say most users of BSD whom I know use linux as a GUI -- that is, > their window manager / desktop environment was developed on linux, > though it may be ported to run natively on FreeBSD. The "BSD > community" as such has made no contribution to the desktop, so can't > complain if the existing options are GPL'd. I guess it depends on your definition of "BSD community". Blackbox is a commonly-used window manager that is developed under FreeBSD and has a BSD-like license. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 11:53:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B15437B50B for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:53:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id B440666B00E; Tue, 29 May 2001 12:44:11 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 12:44:11 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Message-ID: <20010529124411.B59899@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <20010528140153.A58103@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528153532.0488ac10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528153532.0488ac10@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, May 28, 2001 at 03:38:14PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 28, 2001 at 03:38:14PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > One of the most underrated desktops -- and one I would dearly love > to see ported to the BSDs -- is GeoWorks. Tiny, super-efficient, > object-oriented, and INCREDIBLY fast. It was shoehorned into MS-DOS > with great effort.... The nasty, snaky code that retrofitted it into > this environment could be removed, leaving a REALLY neat GUI. Say, could you hand me a site where I could see some sreenshots and such. All I have been able to find is a whole bunch of stuff on WAP wars and NewDeal. Sincerly, Chris Moline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 12: 3:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EDA337B422 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 12:03:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id DB85966B00E; Tue, 29 May 2001 12:54:17 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 12:54:17 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Message-ID: <20010529125417.C59899@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <20010528140153.A58103@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <001301c0e7b9$9771fd90$2d0101c0@headquarters.local> <20010528235553.G12149@messiah.megadeb.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010528235553.G12149@messiah.megadeb.org>; from chopra@runbox.com on Mon, May 28, 2001 at 11:55:53PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 28, 2001 at 11:55:53PM +0200, Munish Chopra wrote: > I have to agree here. After seriously working with both KDE and Gnome > for the past way-too-long, KDE is moving to a generally usable stage > much faster. It seems to be winning out on two big points: Speed (it's > both fast _and_ snappy, which unfortunately can't be said for the latest > Gnome), and Konqueror, which I guess is KDE's killer-app. > > I used to be more of a Gnome guy, but KDE is making leaps and bounds > that are hard to ignore. Personally, I still 'feel the bloat' though. > Luckily, the kdebase2 port removes a lot of that, but I guess I'm just > not a Desktop Environment kind of guy. Simple window manager, and fast > please (BlackBox anyone?). > > But KDE is promising less bloat and more speed, and since they seem to > keep what they promise, I can't help but look forward to the next > releases. I think KDE is improving too. I don't use it because it is still too slow, and because I don't need all the stuff it comes with. I do, however, use Konqueror for my browser. I was using Mozilla before and boy I was so happy to find Konqueror. However, I still think KDE and every other open source desktop still have alot of improvement to make before they are as good as or better than the Mac or any of the lesser-known-but-just-as-good( beos, riscos, qnx, ...). And then on top of that, I don't really see the need for a desktop. I am a newbie coder. I mostly just screw around with BSD and radio. What I would like is for FreeBSD to be as easy as a Mac or a BeBox. I think it can be done and done well. Not only that but I think one day FreeBSd will be that neat. Sincerly, Chris Moline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 12:55: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B9FE37B423 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 12:55:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4TJsms08960; Tue, 29 May 2001 21:54:48 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010529125417.C59899@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <20010528140153.A58103@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <001301c0e7b9$9771fd90$2d0101c0@headquarters.local> <20010528235553.G12149@messiah.megadeb.org> <20010529125417.C59899@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:24:16 +0200 To: Chris Moline , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:54 PM -0600 5/29/01, Chris Moline wrote: > What I >would like > is for FreeBSD to be as easy as a Mac or a BeBox. This is basically the concept of MacOS X. Early indications are that Apple has a good chance to actually be able to deliver on this promise, but after nineteen years of seeing them screw up time after time, I'm taking a "wait-and-see" attitude. However, this statement of yours conflicts rather completely with your earlier statement that you "...don't really see the need for a desktop." Could you clarify? -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 13:45:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13609.mail.yahoo.com (web13609.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B0D8837B422 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:45:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010529204523.88175.qmail@web13609.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13609.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:45:23 PDT Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 13:45:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org No argument on Marcolini :) --- Brad Knowles wrote: > At 3:46 AM -0700 5/29/01, Bzdik BSD wrote: > > > I was trying to give our gentleman-profiler a few more hints, > don't > > spoil the process > > Seeing as Jordan has been to Nederlands at least once or twice > before (he was present for the launch of the Netherlands FreeBSD > Users Group, where he first announced the merger of Walnut Creek and > BSDi), I don't think that any hints I might drop would be likely to > give him much additional hints. > > > as for beer invention, talk to monks from > {Monken > > on Isar}Munchen :)you'll end up fighting > > When do they claim to have invented it? What was later to become > the Abbaye d'Orval (in southern Belgium) was established in 1070 (see > > ), and on the 9th March > in 1132 it was formally inhabited by monks of the Cistercian order. > > Later, they followed the even more austere La Trappe model, from > whence comes the term "Trappiste", which may only be legally applied > to the five surviving monasteries of that order in Belgium (and one > in the Netherlands), which also happen to produce beer according to > the original methods (best known is Chimay, but there is also Orval, > Rochefort, Westmalle, and Westvleteren). > > Indeed, they appear to have been brewing beer at Orval, virtually > since it was founded (from > ): > > Throughout the long history of Orval, there has > probably always been a brewery at the monastery. > Various facts corroborate this idea: topographical > references on old drawings; a detailed description > of production left by a Franciscan visitor three > hundred years ago; an area called the "hop-field" > very close to the monastery. To brew beer was > customary in these areas little-suited to > vine-growing. Beer was first and foremost > considered for its nourishing properties: it was > called "liquid bread". > > > the best beer is made by friends of Joseph Schweik anyway...no > matter > > what you say... > > Who? > > Anyway, as we know, the definition of "best" is always one of > personal opinion and relative to their particular preferences, but > many beer experts have considered Belgian Trappiste beers to be the > best in the world. From Michael Jackson's "Beer Hunter" site (see > , Published in > > Print: FEB 2, 1991; Published in: The Independent): > > Chastity, poverty and a pint > > They don't talk about it much, but Trappist monks have been > brewing good strong beer for ages, writes Michael Jackson > > As my beliefs do not require me to give up any food or drink > for Lent (which begins in the middle of this month), I shall > instead add a pleasure. I shall buy myself enough Trappist > beer to see me through to Easter. > > > Belgian > > chocolate is undisputedly superior to anything else {watch this > line}in > > its product cathegory. > > Again, "different strokes for different folks". > > That said, there are a number of world-class chocolatiers in > Belgium, some of whom are world-famous and much beloved by royalty > and high government officials around the world. Myself, I can eat > quite a large quantity of chocolate, but the first place I've found > that creates what I would call "Haute Chocolat" is Pierre Marcolini, > and even I can only eat a few pieces at a time of their stuff. > > > Besides, why power of Unix on desktop? Haven't they failed this > with > > NeXT, the biggest flop of Jobz's? My neighbourhood restaurant has > > already QNX installed, so does NASA...you still dreaming? > > The key problem is that many application programs are not as well > written as they should be, so when they crash, if the operating > system underneath them is not itself sufficiently robust, the risk is > > that the application going down will take the OS with it. This is > precisely what happens on both Macintosh and PCs. One could argue > that Windows NT is a solution to this problem, but it is not a > multi-user OS, and suffers from a number of other design problems. > > IMO, the best solution for these problems is to have the full > power of the Unix OS on the desktop. However, for reasons of user > (and programmer) friendliness, you also need a good GUI and > programming tools available, as well as a large enough mass market > that you can attract the kinds of programmers writing the kinds of > programs that your customers will want to use on the desktop. > > > I spent 9 hours today doing my regular gigs in mac OS 8.6, and > believe > > me: I tried them all. For what I do, the *productivity* is still > on a > > Mac Classic desktop. Black Holes suck, so does Mac OSX dock. Big > time. > > It takes a while to get used to any new environment. And MacOS > X/Aqua is a pretty big change over the classic "Platinum" MacOS > environment. > > However, I've read quite a few articles by people who trashed > MacOS X as much (or more) than you, but who became used to the > changes and even preferred them, after sufficiently acclimating to > the new environment. > > > All it takes is time. And until you've put in that time, you > really have no reason (or right) to treat it the way you have. > > -- > Brad Knowles, > > /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum > */ > /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody > */ > /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers > */ > /* > */ > /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob > */ > /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key > */ > > dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 13:55:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rallos.eatonform.com (rallos.eatonform.com [206.190.178.235]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C84C237B422 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:55:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Received: (from rch@localhost) by rallos.eatonform.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f4TGkc588228 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:46:38 GMT Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:46:38 +0000 From: Robert Hough To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Message-ID: <20010529164638.A87972@acidpit.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <20010528140153.A58103@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528153532.0488ac10@localhost> <20010529124411.B59899@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010529124411.B59899@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net>; from ugly-daemon@home.com on Tue, May 29, 2001 at 12:44:11 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 29, 2001, Chris Moline wrote: > On Mon, May 28, 2001 at 03:38:14PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > One of the most underrated desktops -- and one I would dearly love > > to see ported to the BSDs -- is GeoWorks. Tiny, super-efficient, > > object-oriented, and INCREDIBLY fast. It was shoehorned into MS-DOS > > with great effort.... The nasty, snaky code that retrofitted it into > > this environment could be removed, leaving a REALLY neat GUI. > > Say, could you hand me a site where I could see some sreenshots and such. All I > have been able to find is a whole bunch of stuff on WAP wars and NewDeal. NewDeal Office is what GeoWorks has become. It's been so long, I honestly don't remember what the geoworks desktop looked like. I'll agree though, for it's time, it was damned nice. Not really too sure how it would compare in this day and age though... http://www.newdealinc.com/products/products_main.asp?page_name=office -- Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 14: 9:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net [24.67.61.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE0BA37B422 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:09:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@home.com) Received: by h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id D20FB66B00E; Tue, 29 May 2001 15:00:46 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:00:46 -0600 From: Chris Moline To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Message-ID: <20010529150046.A63362@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <20010528140153.A58103@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <001301c0e7b9$9771fd90$2d0101c0@headquarters.local> <20010528235553.G12149@messiah.megadeb.org> <20010529125417.C59899@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, May 29, 2001 at 09:24:16PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 29, 2001 at 09:24:16PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > This is basically the concept of MacOS X. Early indications are > that Apple has a good chance to actually be able to deliver on this > promise, but after nineteen years of seeing them screw up time after > time, I'm taking a "wait-and-see" attitude. Yes, but its not open source and I am an open source nut. While I am not against paying for software I do insist that it be open source. > > > However, this statement of yours conflicts rather completely with > your earlier statement that you "...don't really see the need for a > desktop." Could you clarify? Sorry, I don't get much practise in expressing myself so I am not very clear. When people say "desktop" to me that means games, a word processor, a paint program, internet explorer, what most home users seem to use. An easier interface to freebsd isn't any of these things. Have I made myself clearer?? Sincerly, Chris Moline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 14:25:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 240F337B423; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:25:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@foo.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from foo.osd.bsdi.com (root@foo.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.137]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f4TLPEK11243; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:25:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@foo.osd.bsdi.com) Received: (from jhb@localhost) by foo.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4TLPDh58534; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:25:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:25:13 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: New fortune entry? Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org New fortune entry? -----FW: <20010525205530N.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>----- The answer is that libdialog, the library on which sysinstall depends for these menus, is genuinely evil. It is the unloved, satanic bastard child of multiple parents and torturing users like yourself constitutes the only joy in life it has left. Its source files are all chmod'd 0666 and dire README files warn against trespass by neophyte programmers. It is the 7th gate of Hell. It makes the baby Jesus cry. Were libdialog given anthropomorphic representation, it would be promptly burnt at the stake and its ashes scattered in the desert, to be then doused with holy water from altitude by fire-fighting aircraft. -- Jordan K. Hubbard on the evils of libdialog --------------End of forwarded message------------------------- -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.Baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 15: 4:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp018.mail.yahoo.com (smtp018.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8FF5737B422 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 15:04:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsdq@yahoo.com) Received: from h2.impactidealsolutions.com (HELO support10) (216.98.200.91) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 May 2001 22:04:27 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:08:26 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Peter X-Mailer: Mail Warrior To: ugly-daemon@home.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit X-Mailer-Version: v3.57 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org . . . .|newbie coder. I mostly just screw around with BSD and radio. What I would like . . . .|is for FreeBSD to be as easy as a Mac or a BeBox. I think it can be done and . . . .|done well. Not only that but I think one day FreeBSd will be that neat. I think for the most part FreeBSD is as easy as Mac/BeBox. Only thing that is hard for newbies is: install get on the internet after those two initial steps for a regualr desktop nothing beats cd /usr/ports/x11/i-forget/kde2 make install I think that is much easier than having to download and then going, "oh boy where did that file go", and various other things that come along with setup.exe [or Mac equivalent]. Point being, nothing is easier than ports - [IMHO] On 05/29/2001 12:54:17 PM, Chris Moline is quoted as saying: . . . .|On Mon, May 28, 2001 at 11:55:53PM +0200, Munish Chopra wrote: . . . .|> I have to agree here. After seriously working with both KDE and Gnome . . . .|> for the past way-too-long, KDE is moving to a generally usable stage . . . .|> much faster. It seems to be winning out on two big points: Speed (it's . . . .|> both fast _and_ snappy, which unfortunately can't be said for the latest . . . .|> Gnome), and Konqueror, which I guess is KDE's killer-app. . . . .|> . . . .|> I used to be more of a Gnome guy, but KDE is making leaps and bounds . . . .|> that are hard to ignore. Personally, I still 'feel the bloat' though. . . . .|> Luckily, the kdebase2 port removes a lot of that, but I guess I'm just . . . .|> not a Desktop Environment kind of guy. Simple window manager, and fast . . . .|> please (BlackBox anyone?). . . . .|> . . . .|> But KDE is promising less bloat and more speed, and since they seem to . . . .|> keep what they promise, I can't help but look forward to the next . . . .|> releases. . . . .|I think KDE is improving too. I don't use it because it is still too slow, and . . . .|because I don't need all the stuff it comes with. I do, however, use Konqueror . . . .|for my browser. I was using Mozilla before and boy I was so happy to find . . . .|Konqueror. . . . .|However, I still think KDE and every other open source desktop still have alot . . . .|of improvement to make before they are as good as or better than the Mac or any . . . .|of the lesser-known-but-just-as-good( beos, riscos, qnx, ...). . . . .|And then on top of that, I don't really see the need for a desktop. I am a . . . .|newbie coder. I mostly just screw around with BSD and radio. What I would like . . . .|is for FreeBSD to be as easy as a Mac or a BeBox. I think it can be done and . . . .|done well. Not only that but I think one day FreeBSd will be that neat. . . . .| . . . .|Sincerly, . . . .|Chris Moline . . . .| . . . .|To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org . . . .|with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message www.nul.cjb.net www.FreeBSD.org _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 15:16:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hunden.levonline.com (tistel.levonline.com [193.15.191.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D9237B422; Tue, 29 May 2001 15:16:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fredrik@speechcraft.com) Received: from palpatine (t1o74p75.telia.com [62.20.224.75]) (authenticated) by hunden.levonline.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4TMGX509535; Wed, 30 May 2001 00:16:33 +0200 Message-ID: <002301c0e88d$8c6bed50$2d0101c0@headquarters.local> From: "Fredrik Olausson" To: "John Baldwin" , Cc: References: Subject: Re: New fortune entry? Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 00:20:19 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- > New fortune entry? > > -----FW: <20010525205530N.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>----- > > The answer is that libdialog, the library on which sysinstall depends > for these menus, is genuinely evil. It is the unloved, satanic I saw this on Daemonnews earlier today, truly fun stuff! And I thought I was the only one who has deeper relationships to pieces of code than to people... ;) -Fredrik To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 15:43:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7B3237B423 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 15:43:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pnmurphy1@home.com) Received: from home.com ([24.150.36.162]) by femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010529224308.USRD11988.femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com> for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 15:43:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3B1425F8.32235312@home.com> Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 18:43:04 -0400 From: Paul Murphy X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs References: <20010529104636.31597.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> <20010529134539.E3636@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > There's a similar, but much more coherent, program (to generate > postmodern text) at > http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/community/postmodern.html > (follow the link given there) See also http://www.jwz.org/.netscape-bookmarks.html#Generated_Texts -- "Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 16: 4:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (usr.srcsys.org [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8407537B423 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:04:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 31146 invoked by uid 1000); 29 May 2001 23:00:54 -0000 Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:00:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joseph A. Mallett" X-X-Sender: To: John Baldwin Cc: , Subject: Re: New fortune entry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I remeber seeing him say that, and instantly adding it to my fortune file :) Mind you, my input is next to nil, but nevertheless, I think it's a fitting addition :) -- [ Joseph Mallett ] [ http://srcsys.org ] [ xMach Core Team xMach: Proactively Unbloated Microkernel BSD ] [ FreeBSD, NetBSD, & xMach User; (Obj)C(++) Coder ] [ http://xMach.org ] -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS d-- s+:++ a--- C+++ UB++++ P+++ L- E---- W++ N+ o-- K- w++ O M+ V PS+ PE- Y+ PGP++ t++ 5-- X+ R tv- b++ DI+ D--- G e* h! r% z+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ On Tue, 29 May 2001, John Baldwin wrote: > New fortune entry? > > -----FW: <20010525205530N.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>----- > > The answer is that libdialog, the library on which sysinstall depends > for these menus, is genuinely evil. It is the unloved, satanic > bastard child of multiple parents and torturing users like yourself > constitutes the only joy in life it has left. Its source files are > all chmod'd 0666 and dire README files warn against trespass by > neophyte programmers. It is the 7th gate of Hell. It makes the baby > Jesus cry. Were libdialog given anthropomorphic representation, it > would be promptly burnt at the stake and its ashes scattered in the > desert, to be then doused with holy water from altitude by > fire-fighting aircraft. > > -- Jordan K. Hubbard on the evils of libdialog > > --------------End of forwarded message------------------------- > > -- > > John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ > PGP Key: http://www.Baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 16:10:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13605.mail.yahoo.com (web13605.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 49CA037B423 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:10:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010529231021.95018.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13605.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:10:21 PDT Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:10:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: IBM is looking upon You To: chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hiall, right on their title page for Linux developers they placed a FreeBSD tutorial. Nice. We'll get a few articles in Salon.com about IBM's upcoming coolness, if we hurry before it bombs. http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/ in the meantime the 4GB installation tries to get cool. they may consider Boeing as the next code-name: http://www.baboo.com.br/special/winxp_b2/9_2475_u.htm best __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 16:11:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0898437B423 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:11:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4TNBjs16622; Wed, 30 May 2001 01:11:45 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010529150046.A63362@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <20010528140153.A58103@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <001301c0e7b9$9771fd90$2d0101c0@headquarters.local> <20010528235553.G12149@messiah.megadeb.org> <20010529125417.C59899@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <20010529150046.A63362@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 00:36:46 +0200 To: Chris Moline , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:00 PM -0600 5/29/01, Chris Moline wrote: > Yes, but its not open source and I am an open source nut. While I am > not against paying for software I do insist that it be open source. Of course, there is Apple's Darwin project, which is the open source portions of MacOS X (not including Aqua). > Sorry, I don't get much practise in expressing myself so I am not very clear. > When people say "desktop" to me that means games, a word processor, a paint > program, internet explorer, what most home users seem to use. An easier > interface to freebsd isn't any of these things. Have I made myself clearer?? Assuming they can actually deliver on their promise, Apple should be able to deliver on both points -- desktop applications, as well as an easier interface to use and administer *BSD. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 16:17:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4300837B423; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:17:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramidi@otenet.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b024.otenet.gr [195.167.121.152]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4TNH8e17160; Wed, 30 May 2001 02:17:09 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4TNHrN41970; Wed, 30 May 2001 02:17:53 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramidi@otenet.gr) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 02:17:52 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Fredrik Olausson Cc: John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New fortune entry? Message-ID: <20010530021752.C76278@hades.hell.gr> References: <002301c0e88d$8c6bed50$2d0101c0@headquarters.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <002301c0e88d$8c6bed50$2d0101c0@headquarters.local>; from fredrik@speechcraft.com on Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:20:19AM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 12:20:19AM +0200, Fredrik Olausson wrote: | | And I thought I was the only one who has deeper relationships to pieces of | code than to people... ;) If that makes you feel any better (or worse, for that matter)... you are not alone :P --giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 17:27: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C000B37B42C for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 17:27:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4U0Ql294484; Wed, 30 May 2001 00:26:47 GMT Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 00:26:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting quote from Bill Joy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 29 May 2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > Actually, at the moment, we should be comparing him to jkh.nl, > and not jkh.pl -- to the best of my knowledge, Jordan is still in the > Netherlands, and has not yet flown over to Poland. ;-) perhaps it should be jkh.${LOCALE}.pl.... ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 18:41:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13609.mail.yahoo.com (web13609.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9FDBC37B42C for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 18:41:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010530014144.28294.qmail@web13609.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13609.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 29 May 2001 18:41:44 PDT Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 18:41:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Acknowledgement by Jobs To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B1425F8.32235312@home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Paul Murphy wrote: > > > > There's a similar, but much more coherent, program (to generate > > postmodern text) at > > http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/community/postmodern.html > > (follow the link given there) > > > See also http://www.jwz.org/.netscape-bookmarks.html#Generated_Texts > -- > "Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. > Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which > can." LOL, stay on topic: Jobs agrees with Linus - it's crap. Pick your friends carefully, Sevie's middle name always was "Shit Where You Eat". Better look at IBM, what a nice boost-blow to yo ego here: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/ hurry to submit running-dog articles to Salon.bomb they have an interest here as well: http://www.baboo.com.br/special/winxp_b2/9_2475_u.htm Seriously, I wish I were as sure as you are that something like FreeBSD would save something like Apple. All alliances are temporary and forced entities. Unfortunately, only a few among techie brilliant ones were able to see what's going on at the street corner. And those who were - thieves and opportunists like Gates or Edison. You did not get what Ted was trying to wake you up for and you'll get what I mean after you'll be not needed anymore. Right now it's me who subsidises your arrogant quarter offerings and fables about a kid who read at 3 and talked like santa rabina at 4. keep bloating... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 29 21:12:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.thpoon.com (cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com [24.42.106.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D6DEC37B422 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 21:12:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antipode@thpoon.com) Received: (qmail 96887 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 04:12:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tea.thpoon.com) (qmailr@192.168.1.2) by cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com with SMTP; 30 May 2001 04:12:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 21240 invoked by uid 1000); 30 May 2001 04:12:12 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Books on security and UNIX programming From: Arcady Genkin X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 30 May 2001 00:12:12 -0400 Message-ID: <87d78rcw6b.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Academic Rigor) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Looking for a good book on security, I've looked at what ORA have to offer... Has anyone read their "Practical UNIX & Internet Security"? http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/puis/index.html It was published in 1996, and I fear lest lots of important secuirty-related things have happened/changed since then. Any other recommendations? I'm mostly interested in security implications on programming. System administration side is secondary, although would be welcome as a bonus. Many thanks for any input. Off-list responses are welcome. -- Arcady Genkin i=1; while 1, hilb(i); i=i+1; end To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 0:22:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hunden.levonline.com (tistel.levonline.com [193.15.191.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5EBF37B422 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 00:22:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fredrik@speechcraft.com) Received: from palpatine (t1o74p74.telia.com [62.20.224.74]) (authenticated) by hunden.levonline.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4U7M9514047; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:22:09 +0200 Message-ID: <003101c0e8d9$c79a2850$2d0101c0@headquarters.local> From: "Fredrik Olausson" To: , "Arcady Genkin" References: <87d78rcw6b.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Subject: Re: Books on security and UNIX programming Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:25:56 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- > Looking for a good book on security, I've looked at what ORA have to > offer... Has anyone read their "Practical UNIX & Internet Security"? > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/puis/index.html > It was published in 1996, and I fear lest lots of important > secuirty-related things have happened/changed since then. > > Any other recommendations? I'm mostly interested in security > implications on programming. System administration side is secondary, > although would be welcome as a bonus. The best security related book I've read is the "Building Internet Firewalls" by Zwicky, Cooperand Chapman (O'Reilly). While it doesn't cover programming as such, it does give you a very good understanding of how security works. Maybe some of the more advanced Unix programming books (by O'Reilly) would have some information for you. Mind you, I haven't seen any books purely about "Security programming" (at least here, in Sweden), and I am quite an avid reader of computer litterature. I think you would be better of getting oe of the O'Reilly bibles on unix systemsor networkprogramming, and work from there. -Fredrik To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 1:54:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33D2D37B424 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 01:54:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (pool0246.cvx7-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.164.246]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA31880; Wed, 30 May 2001 04:54:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B14B54B.5A1D2586@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 01:54:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kirby Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby wrote: > > On Fri, 25 May 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > > This is where most GPL stuff falls apart, since the GPL > > effectively redefines "use" to be "utilize". The UCB > > license doesn't have all the long-winded clauses which > > do that: when the UCB license says "use", it meand "use". > > Correct me if I am wrong, but the UCB license was written > by a lawyer. Is this true of the GPL? Yes. RMS contracted it out. The confusion is intentional. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 2: 6:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0DA37B423 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 02:06:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4U96fR36613 ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:06:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA60016 ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:07:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:07:15 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Message-ID: <20010530110715.F57297@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3B14B54B.5A1D2586@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B14B54B.5A1D2586@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:54:35AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 30, 2001 at 01:54:35: > > On Fri, 25 May 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > This is where most GPL stuff falls apart, since the GPL > > > effectively redefines "use" to be "utilize". The UCB > > > license doesn't have all the long-winded clauses which > > > do that: when the UCB license says "use", it meand "use". > > > > Correct me if I am wrong, but the UCB license was written > > by a lawyer. Is this true of the GPL? > > Yes. RMS contracted it out. The confusion is intentional. According to Darren Reed, any lawyer will tell you that *his* copyright notice means redistribution of unmodified code is allowed, not redistribution of modified code. "Use" perhaps allows modification for personal purposes, but distribution of modified code violates copyright law. http://www.deadly.org/article.php3?sid=20010527142347 (Warning: that page is not for the faint of heart). The BSD licence explicitly permits modification. So this is not an issue for BSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 2:17:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58E237B423 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 02:17:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (pool0246.cvx7-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.164.246]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA26073; Wed, 30 May 2001 05:16:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B14BA89.578D1D6@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 02:16:57 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? References: <20010525084905.A94861@lpt.ens.fr> <200105251841.LAA12009@usr05.primenet.com> <20010526102234.A51269@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > I'll be obliged. Also if you can point at one "InterJet" or > > "IBM Web Connections" ad which mentions features specific to, > > or use of, FreeBSD. > > I'm not familiar with these. OK, so pick "FreeGate" or "Encanto" or "CacheFlow"; whatever. > And how about Apple Mac OS X? They may not always mention BSD, but > they mention the software and its features, which are BSD, whether > they call it that or not. > > Or are you saying it's ok to use the software, and advertise its use > and features, and not mention UCB, as long as you don't acknowledge > that it's BSD code you're using either? If so, how does that stop > anyone stealing credit for the code? If you do not specifically mention your use of the software, or features unique to it, in your marketing materials, then you do not have to mention the specific caluse contents. For distribution in binary form, the old license meant you had to put a blurb in appendix K of your documentation on CDROM, in a 4 point font, to comply. In general, the Whistle/IBM products didn't mention features specific to the code in the marketing materials, and had a button you could go to and see the various open source stuff from a web browser ("accompanying documentation"), which the highly paid legions of IBM lawyers assured us was rather more than adequate. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 2:28:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B577B37B422 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 02:28:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4U9SBR39680 ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:28:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA60979 ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:28:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:28:48 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Message-ID: <20010530112848.H57297@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010525084905.A94861@lpt.ens.fr> <200105251841.LAA12009@usr05.primenet.com> <20010526102234.A51269@lpt.ens.fr> <3B14BA89.578D1D6@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B14BA89.578D1D6@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:16:57AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on May 30, 2001 at 02:16:57: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > I'll be obliged. Also if you can point at one "InterJet" or > > > "IBM Web Connections" ad which mentions features specific to, > > > or use of, FreeBSD. > > > > I'm not familiar with these. > > OK, so pick "FreeGate" or "Encanto" or "CacheFlow"; whatever. Let's take a better known example: Microsoft. In 1995 they used BSD code for their networking in Windows 95. They widely trumpeted the networking features in their advertisements (the Internet was just catching on, and Windows 3.1 didn't have any inbuilt internet capability). I don't recall any acknowledgement of UCB in Microsoft's advertisements. Was that, or was it not, a violation of the advertising clause (which had not yet been removed at that time)? My claim is that the advertising clause would have been violated more often than honoured, even by well-meaning people. Moreover, it was inconsistent with the goal of allowing the maximum number of people to use the software with the least amount of hassle. Dropping it was a good thing. - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 2:54:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76DBB37B422 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 02:54:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4U9soR45453 ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:54:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA62168 ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:55:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:55:27 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Message-ID: <20010530115527.J57297@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010530112848.H57297@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from davids@webmaster.com on Wed, May 30, 2001 at 02:47:45AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The legal opinion that I got, when I asked our intellectual property > counsel, was that in the phrase "advertising materials mentioning features > or use of this software", the word "this" refers to the original software. > The networking features they were trumpeting were networking features of > Windows. Hm. Was that UCB's intention, or is it a legal loophole? What I mean is, the features they were trumpeting were features of the BSD software which had been included in Windows. They were not features which existed in Windows independently of the original code. So what you're saying seems to be that I can take the code and use it, and advertise its features as features of "my" software without acknowledging the source. In any case, it seems quite incompatible with Terry's argument that this is a "credit claim" clause. Few people in the real world know at all that Windows uses code from BSD. - R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 3:32:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD9637B422 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 03:32:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4UAWHR51422 ; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:32:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA64416 ; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:32:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:32:54 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Message-ID: <20010530123254.L57297@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010530115527.J57297@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from davids@webmaster.com on Wed, May 30, 2001 at 03:16:35AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz said on May 30, 2001 at 03:16:35: > Let's look again: > > Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without > modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions > are met: > ... > 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software > must display the following acknowledgement: > This product includes software developed by the University of > California, Berkeley and its contributors. > > It's pretty clear that "this software" refers to the software included in > the packaging with the license. To test this, consider what the phrase "that > software" would mean in the same context. To me, it's clear that "this > software" refers to the original software and "that software" would refer to > the redistributed version. > > Now, "use" of the original software is certainly not mentioned. Microsoft > does not talk about using BSD in any of their advertising materials. So > we're left with "features of". So, does Microsoft mention any features of > BSD? I guess that's the problem I have. The TCP/IP networking is a feature of the BSD code which Microsoft used. The way I read the clause, advertising the features and use of the internet tools in Windows is advertising the features and use of BSD code, without naming it. Of course, your lawyer's interpretation is almost certainly more accurate than mine. But I'm not happy with that interpretation. Anyone can make that interpretation (MacOS X's features are features of MacOS X, not of FreeBSD; FreeBSD's features are features of FreeBSD, not of the original Berkeley 4.4 BSD code), which -- to me, at least -- seems to make it all meaningless. - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 4:22:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18CA837B424 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 04:22:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramidi@otenet.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b075.otenet.gr [195.167.121.203]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4UBLve04282; Wed, 30 May 2001 14:21:57 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4UALwY10056; Wed, 30 May 2001 13:21:58 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramidi@otenet.gr) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 13:21:58 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: David Schwartz , Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Message-ID: <20010530132158.A10038@hades.hell.gr> References: <20010530112848.H57297@lpt.ens.fr> <20010530115527.J57297@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010530115527.J57297@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:55:27AM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:55:27AM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: | | In any case, it seems quite incompatible with Terry's argument that | this is a "credit claim" clause. Few people in the real world know | at all that Windows uses code from BSD. And without having an actual peek at the code, you can't even tell if this is true. But signing an NDA will allow you to see the code, but forbid comments such as "yes, it does use BSD code". Oh boy... ain't this a wonderful world? --giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 4:35:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B2CB37B422 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 04:35:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4UBZBR59015 ; Wed, 30 May 2001 13:35:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA66650 ; Wed, 30 May 2001 13:35:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 13:35:49 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Schwartz Cc: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Message-ID: <20010530133549.O57297@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010530123254.L57297@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from davids@webmaster.com on Wed, May 30, 2001 at 03:41:44AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz said on May 30, 2001 at 03:41:44: > > > I guess that's the problem I have. The TCP/IP networking is a feature > > of the BSD code which Microsoft used. The way I read the clause, > > advertising the features and use of the internet tools in Windows > > is advertising the features and use of BSD code, without naming it. > > You can't advertise something without mentioning it. That is, if you say "BSD", you have to follow the advertising clause; not otherwise. > Seems to make what all meaningless? You don't think it's important to > protect, for example, the connection between BSD and Berkeley? Certainly that's important. But that would happen anyway, it seems to me. > And would you > rather Microsoft credits Berkeley for its misfeatures just because it uses > BSD code to implement them? That's a different matter. As I said, I think the advertising clause was a bad idea in any case. - R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 9:17:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E50E537B423 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 09:17:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f4UGHH015261; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:17:17 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <87d78rcw6b.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> References: <87d78rcw6b.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 18:16:52 +0200 To: Arcady Genkin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Books on security and UNIX programming Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:12 AM -0400 5/30/01, Arcady Genkin wrote: > Looking for a good book on security, I've looked at what ORA have to > offer... Has anyone read their "Practical UNIX & Internet Security"? > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/puis/index.html > It was published in 1996, and I fear lest lots of important > secuirty-related things have happened/changed since then. Yup, I've read it. I also recommended it pretty highly on Amazon. I'm still working on putting together my complete list of good security-related books, but this is certainly one of them. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 10: 8:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27BD437B424 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:08:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 1559ST-0001xZ-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:08:33 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4UH8Xq60761 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:08:33 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 18:08:32 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: release schedule? Message-ID: <20010530180832.A60687@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We are up to 4.3. I remember a vague reference to a release schedule that mentioned 5.0. And the -current list looks pretty scary right now, plus there is (i assume) upheaval going on with the whole BSDi/Wind River/FreeBSD deal. Any ideas here? jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 10:56:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60DB037B424 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:56:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f4UHrFl30359; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:53:15 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:53:15 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: release schedule? Message-ID: <20010530105315.B26360@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20010530180832.A60687@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NDin8bjvE/0mNLFQ" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010530180832.A60687@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Wed, May 30, 2001 at 06:08:32PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --NDin8bjvE/0mNLFQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 06:08:32PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: >=20 > We are up to 4.3. I remember a vague reference to a release schedule that > mentioned 5.0. And the -current list looks pretty scary right now, plus > there is (i assume) upheaval going on with the whole BSDi/Wind River/Free= BSD > deal. Any ideas here? 4.x will continue to release ever 3-4 months until 5.0 comes out. 5.0 won't be out until at least fall and quite possiably later. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --NDin8bjvE/0mNLFQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7FTOKXY6L6fI4GtQRAqxSAJ4pf25gVHEyJlsvlcvV4LAnCNnxiwCcCal1 lC2ZWuCFcp1/KsO5jvak0EY= =7j2J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NDin8bjvE/0mNLFQ-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 11:52: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-66.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EDA337B424 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:51:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F1F94671A4; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:51:50 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , David Schwartz , Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Message-ID: <20010530115150.A68790@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010530112848.H57297@lpt.ens.fr> <20010530115527.J57297@lpt.ens.fr> <20010530132158.A10038@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010530132158.A10038@hades.hell.gr>; from keramidi@otenet.gr on Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:21:58PM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 01:21:58PM +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:55:27AM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > |=20 > | In any case, it seems quite incompatible with Terry's argument that > | this is a "credit claim" clause. Few people in the real world know > | at all that Windows uses code from BSD. >=20 > And without having an actual peek at the code, you can't even tell if thi= s is > true. But signing an NDA will allow you to see the code, but forbid comm= ents > such as "yes, it does use BSD code". The FTP binary contains UCB copyright notices so we know it does (it's a straight port of the old BSD ftp client): > strings FTP.EXE | grep "University of California" @(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California. Kris --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7FUFFWry0BWjoQKURAvQDAKCwcmxnZ/MfqtEqj5n60+1XgeYX9wCfcM+w 7vcclBRWthvSYo7EzQeTYT8= =wnBQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 11:54:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-66.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A55F37B423 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:54:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0D0BC671A4; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:54:28 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: release schedule? Message-ID: <20010530115428.B68790@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010530180832.A60687@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010530180832.A60687@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Wed, May 30, 2001 at 06:08:32PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 06:08:32PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: >=20 > We are up to 4.3. I remember a vague reference to a release schedule that > mentioned 5.0. And the -current list looks pretty scary right now, plus Perhaps by the end of the year. > there is (i assume) upheaval going on with the whole BSDi/Wind River/Free= BSD > deal. Why would this affect the FreeBSD release schedule? Kris --hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7FUHkWry0BWjoQKURAhASAKCLFP6TwZ11yehzoehZUizotsZDtwCeKoB2 tqlVx1vxpvDQ0QGsy1mROg4= =tDYV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hQiwHBbRI9kgIhsi-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 12: 4: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rapier.smartspace.co.za (rapier.smartspace.co.za [66.8.25.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C139E37B424 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:03:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@rapier.smartspace.co.za) Received: (qmail 84324 invoked by uid 1001); 30 May 2001 19:03:52 -0000 Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 21:03:52 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: interesting os comparison charts Message-ID: <20010530210351.C65759@rapier.smartspace.co.za> References: <20010529214403.L85298@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530205056.G29853@mail.webmonster.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010530205056.G29853@mail.webmonster.de>; from karsten@rohrbach.de on Wed, May 30, 2001 at 08:50:56PM +0200 Organization: Building Intelligence X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed 2001-05-30 (20:50), Karsten W. Rohrbach wrote: > Karsten W. Rohrbach(karsten@rohrbach.de)@2001.05.29 21:44:03 +0000: > > the author also addresses the typical GENERIC kernel problems on > > production machines (NBMCLUSTERS too low,...), anyway it's very > s/NBMCLUSTERS/NMBCLUSTERS/ > uptime strikes back again ;-) I'm reasonably famous for being the cause for better network performance at my university society. ;) Neil (aka, NBM) -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 17:48:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A2F37B422 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 17:48:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 155Gdn-000Mek-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 01:48:43 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f4V0mhk69113 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 31 May 2001 01:48:43 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 01:48:08 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: release schedule? Message-ID: <20010531014808.H68784@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010530180832.A60687@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010530115428.B68790@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010530115428.B68790@xor.obsecurity.org>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:54:28AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:54:28AM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: | On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 06:08:32PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: | > | > We are up to 4.3. I remember a vague reference to a release schedule that | > mentioned 5.0. And the -current list looks pretty scary right now, plus | | Perhaps by the end of the year. | | > there is (i assume) upheaval going on with the whole BSDi/Wind River/FreeBSD | > deal. | | Why would this affect the FreeBSD release schedule? Good question. I guess the answer remains to be seen, if there is any effect at all. I just wondered about distribution, developer commitment, additional or less paid developers, .... Anything could happen or at least have an effect. jcm -- "I drank WHAT ?!" - Socrates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 21: 7:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-76-217.knology.net [24.214.76.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B395237B424 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 21:07:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4V43kx26303; Wed, 30 May 2001 23:03:47 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200105310403.f4V43kx26303@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? In-reply-to: Message from Rahul Siddharthan of "Wed, 30 May 2001 11:28:48 +0200." <20010530112848.H57297@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 23:03:46 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Let's take a better known example: Microsoft. In 1995 they used BSD > code for their networking in Windows 95. They widely trumpeted the > networking features in their advertisements (the Internet was just > catching on, and Windows 3.1 didn't have any inbuilt internet > capability). I don't recall any acknowledgement of UCB in Microsoft's > advertisements. Was that, or was it not, a violation of the > advertising clause (which had not yet been removed at that time)? > > My claim is that the advertising clause would have been violated more > often than honoured, even by well-meaning people. Moreover, it was > inconsistent with the goal of allowing the maximum number of people to > use the software with the least amount of hassle. Dropping it was a > good thing. Think it was NT 3.51 which had a "portions copyright BSD" (or some such) message in the text displayed during boot, which was momentarily before they fired up the graphics. Have heard more than one claim that "NT is MS-BSD" with nothing but that little copyright notice as evidence. As a result this is what I always think of when "BSD advertising clause removal" comes up. That BSD was embarrased by being associated with Microsoft and removed the requirement for everyone. Not that I know anything. But the time line is about right. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 30 22: 5:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1755637B424 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 22:05:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01972; Wed, 30 May 2001 23:03:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010530225235.048b5bb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 22:54:30 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Cc: Chris Moline , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010529194223.P3636@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010529112012.052768c0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <20010528140153.A58103@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528153532.0488ac10@localhost> <20010529112302.A3636@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010529112012.052768c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:42 AM 5/29/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >I don't care. Rather, I'm quite happy with that. If I were writing >a commercial quality word processor for free, the GPL is the licence >I'd choose. Alas, you've been a GPL zealot since I've first seen your postings here. It is a testament to the tolerance of the BSD community that you haven't been sent packing. >Would you rather pay $5000 per seat or whatever it was for crap like >CDE? That's where we'd be if the GPL'd alternatives didn't exist. Bull. This is no more true than a claim that we'd all have to buy Solaris were it not for Linux. Thanks to the BSDs, there is a truly free alternative. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 1:24:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (f46.law8.hotmail.com [216.33.241.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC7E37B42C for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 01:24:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmd526@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 31 May 2001 01:24:55 -0700 Received: from 152.163.197.59 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 31 May 2001 08:24:55 GMT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.197.59] From: "John Daniels" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD Foundation clarification Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 04:24:55 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 May 2001 08:24:55.0629 (UTC) FILETIME=[2C2E5FD0:01C0E9AB] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi: Can anyone explain what the FreeBSD Foundation is? Is this a real entity? The terms FreeBSD Core / FreeBSD Foundation / FreeBSD Project seem to be used interchangeably at times in the mailing lists, but I have not found a reference that indicates that "FreeBSD Foundation" is anything more than a means of refering to the project or core. I saw an email from Justin Gibbs in November about 501(c)(3) nonprofit status for FreeBSD and I would think that this effort might be on behalf of behalf of some, presumeably nonprofit, entity like "FreeBSD Foundation" but I have not seen any email, press release, or other notice that states that such an entity officially exists. Oh, and can anyone comment on the progress of the 501(c)(3) effort? My understanding is that it has been in the works now for at least 15 months. Thanks in advance. John _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 1:48:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (erie.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA0637B424 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 01:48:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) id f4V8mnK58049; Thu, 31 May 2001 01:48:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 01:48:49 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: John Daniels Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Foundation clarification Message-ID: <20010531014849.A58037@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from jmd526@hotmail.com on Thu, May 31, 2001 at 04:24:55AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 31, 2001 at 04:24:55AM -0400, John Daniels wrote: > Hi: > > Can anyone explain what the FreeBSD Foundation is? Is this a real entity? > The terms FreeBSD Core / FreeBSD Foundation / FreeBSD Project seem to be > used interchangeably at times in the mailing lists, but I have not found a > reference that indicates that "FreeBSD Foundation" is anything more than a > means of refering to the project or core. > > I saw an email from Justin Gibbs in November about 501(c)(3) nonprofit > status for FreeBSD and I would think that this effort might be on behalf of > behalf of some, presumeably nonprofit, entity like "FreeBSD Foundation" but > I have not seen any email, press release, or other notice that states that > such an entity officially exists. > > Oh, and can anyone comment on the progress of the 501(c)(3) effort? My > understanding is that it has been in the works now for at least 15 months. Yes, please. And for the record can get a status of who owns the trademark and/or logo "FreeBSD" Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 4:12:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 475F337B423 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 04:12:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4VBC4j88315 ; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:12:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA20445 ; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:12:43 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 13:12:43 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Message-ID: <20010531131243.C18115@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <20010528140153.A58103@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528153532.0488ac10@localhost> <20010529112302.A3636@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010529112012.052768c0@localhost> <20010529194223.P3636@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010530225235.048b5bb0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010530225235.048b5bb0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, May 30, 2001 at 10:54:30PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on May 30, 2001 at 22:54:30: > >I don't care. Rather, I'm quite happy with that. If I were writing > >a commercial quality word processor for free, the GPL is the licence > >I'd choose. > > Alas, you've been a GPL zealot since I've first seen your postings > here. It is a testament to the tolerance of the BSD community that > you haven't been sent packing. Well, I see nothing wrong with the GPL -- to you, yes, that makes me a GPL zealot. And I don't know about the tolerance of the BSD community, but your tolerance, moderation and balanced viewpoint, of course, shine through in every posting. > >Would you rather pay $5000 per seat or whatever it was for crap like > >CDE? That's where we'd be if the GPL'd alternatives didn't exist. > > Bull. This is no more true than a claim that we'd all have to buy > Solaris were it not for Linux. Thanks to the BSDs, there is a truly > free alternative. Not for the desktop. Consider: in 1997 (when linux was roughly where BSD is now, in terms of mindshare) the desktop scene in linux was pathetic: Red Hat was actually selling a commercial port of CDE to linux. (This was before they "saw the light" about selling only free software.) Consider, also, that even *today* CDE is about the only option you have on a commercial unix -- unless you install something else by yourself. Unix used to dominate the workstation market in the early 1990s ("workstation" meant Unix, more or less), and look at that market today. Now Sun and HP are actually considering GNOME for their own desktops. The commercial guys didn't rescue the commercial Unix desktop, so I fail to see where your touching faith in their ability to rescue BSD (or Linux) comes from. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 4:53:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.tfcc.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E45537B632 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 04:53:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cfuhrman@tfcci.com) Received: (from mail@localhost) by proxy.tfcc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA19631; Thu, 31 May 2001 07:53:38 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: proxy.tfcc.com: mail set sender to using -f Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by proxy.tfcc.com via smap (V2.1/2.1a) id xma019626; Thu, 31 May 01 07:53:18 -0400 Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 07:52:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Fuhrman X-X-Sender: To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: <20010531131243.C18115@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Redhat, at one time, sold a version of CDE made by Triteal. They discontinued it due to security issues with Triteal's CDE distribution. The official Security announcement can be found here: http://lwn.net/1998/1001/a/cde.html I especially love this quote: "Because CDE is not Open Source software, we have no ability to fix either the minor bugs that have been reported over the last year, or these more important security bugs." Cheers! On Thu, 31 May 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Not for the desktop. Consider: in 1997 (when linux was roughly where > BSD is now, in terms of mindshare) the desktop scene in linux was > pathetic: Red Hat was actually selling a commercial port of CDE to > linux. (This was before they "saw the light" about selling only free > software.) - -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: PGPEnvelope - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net iD8DBQE7FjCDtZTBgtmnGNERAohSAKDX2rgsPNwBD1f9W+7U3H2bmjXzIwCgrsOI tQmpLc3N2YQ2aCagtxkzBM0= =nSjU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 5:45:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta10.onebox.com (mta10.onebox.com [64.68.76.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3807F37B423 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 05:45:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ctjewett@zdnetonebox.com) Received: from onebox.com ([10.1.101.7]) by mta10.onebox.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.21 201-229-121-121-20010307) with SMTP id <20010531124519.SSJB28488.mta10.onebox.com@onebox.com> for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 05:45:19 -0700 Received: from [199.186.63.162] by onebox.com with HTTP; Thu, 31 May 2001 05:45:19 -0700 Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 08:45:19 -0400 Subject: The desktop apathy? I think not. From: "Christopher T. Jewett" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="1BoxPartBoundary99131311929952991313119" Message-Id: <20010531124519.SSJB28488.mta10.onebox.com@onebox.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --1BoxPartBoundary99131311929952991313119 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > Now Sun and HP are actually considering GNOME for their > own desktops. The commercial guys didn't rescue the commercial Unix > desktop, so I fail to see where your touching faith in their ability > to rescue BSD (or Linux) comes from. In case you missed it, they're not just considering it. It's actually happening. Sun officially released Gnome 1.4 for Solaris 8 about 3 weeks ago. http://www.sun.com/software/star/gnome/getgnome14.html They're not stopping their, either. After Gnome 2.X is released in mid 2002, it will be the *default* desktop on Solaris. HP isn't sitting on it's duff either. As for commercial Unix vendors not helping the desktop initiative, all one has to do is visit gnome.org and see the incredible list of financial backers they've got. Just take a look here: http://www.gnome.org/commsupp.html It's going to take a lot of work, but Unix for the desktop is coming, and in a *BIG* way. Look at all of the major players that have lasted from the days of DOS and you'll see all sorts of alliances being made. Call me hopeful, but I see a day in the not-to-distant future where Unix is the standard, with hundreds of different flavors to choose from. Chris ___________________________________________________________________ To get your own FREE ZDNet Onebox - FREE voicemail, email, and fax, all in one place - sign up today at http://www.zdnetonebox.com --1BoxPartBoundary99131311929952991313119 Content-type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment Content-Description: vCard for Christopher Jewett YmVnaW46dmNhcmQNCnZlcnNpb246My4wDQpGTjpDaHJpc3RvcGhlciAgSmV3ZXR0DQpOOkpl d2V0dDtDaHJpc3RvcGhlciA7OzsNCkFEUjo7OzM2MjQgTmlhZ2FyYSBTdHJlZXQ7V2F5bmU7 TUk7NDgxODQtMTk1ODs7DQpFTUFJTDtUWVBFPWludGVybmV0OmN0amV3ZXR0QHpkbmV0b25l Ym94LmNvbQ0KVEVMO1RZUEU9dm9pY2UsZmF4LHByZWYsbXNnOig0MTUpIDQzMC0yMTYxIHgx MjUwDQpURUw7VFlQRT12b2ljZSxob21lOig3MzQpIDcyOS0yNjIwDQpURUw7VFlQRT12b2lj ZSx3b3JrOigyNDgpIDMyNC00NDU4eDEzOA0KVEVMO1RZUEU9cGFnZXI6KDczNCkgNTA0LTU1 ODYNClVSTDpodHRwOi8vd3d3LmthbnR1cy5jb20NCmVuZDp2Y2FyZA0K --1BoxPartBoundary99131311929952991313119-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 6: 2:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7735737B423 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 06:02:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4VD2ej01413 ; Thu, 31 May 2001 15:02:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA25855 ; Thu, 31 May 2001 15:03:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 15:03:19 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Christopher T. Jewett" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. Message-ID: <20010531150319.B25098@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010531124519.SSJB28488.mta10.onebox.com@onebox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010531124519.SSJB28488.mta10.onebox.com@onebox.com>; from ctjewett@zdnetonebox.com on Thu, May 31, 2001 at 08:45:19AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christopher T. Jewett said on May 31, 2001 at 08:45:19: > > They're not stopping their, either. After Gnome 2.X is released in mid > 2002, it will be the *default* desktop on Solaris. HP isn't sitting > on it's duff either. > > As for commercial Unix vendors not helping the desktop initiative, all > one has to do is visit gnome.org and see the incredible list of financial > backers they've got. Just take a look here: > > http://www.gnome.org/commsupp.html > > It's going to take a lot of work, but Unix for the desktop is coming, > and in a *BIG* way. So -- GNU comes to the rescue of Sun and HP? I agree, it's a lot of work. The GNOME and KDE people put in that work in the last 3 years, while the commercial people sat back satisfied with CDE (which I'll admit was fine for 1994, and an improvement over what existed earlier). Now both projects have their infrastructure more or less in place, and the applications will follow. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 9:14:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E985837B422 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:14:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@root.com) Received: (from dg@localhost) by root.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f4VG8FH84610; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:08:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:08:14 -0700 From: David Greenman To: John Daniels Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Foundation clarification Message-ID: <20010531090814.H19893@nexus.root.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from jmd526@hotmail.com on Thu, May 31, 2001 at 04:24:55AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Can anyone explain what the FreeBSD Foundation is? Is this a real entity? >The terms FreeBSD Core / FreeBSD Foundation / FreeBSD Project seem to be >used interchangeably at times in the mailing lists, but I have not found a >reference that indicates that "FreeBSD Foundation" is anything more than a >means of refering to the project or core. > >I saw an email from Justin Gibbs in November about 501(c)(3) nonprofit >status for FreeBSD and I would think that this effort might be on behalf of >behalf of some, presumeably nonprofit, entity like "FreeBSD Foundation" but >I have not seen any email, press release, or other notice that states that >such an entity officially exists. > >Oh, and can anyone comment on the progress of the 501(c)(3) effort? My >understanding is that it has been in the works now for at least 15 months. > >Thanks in advance. Justin Gibbs would be the person to ask about this. He's on vacation until June 10th, however, so I wouldn't expect a timely response from him right now. -DG David Greenman Co-founder, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org President, TeraSolutions, Inc. - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 9:21:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from asmodean.nks.net (asmodean.nks.net [216.139.201.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB5A437B422 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:21:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joeo@cracktown.com) Received: from localhost (joeo@localhost) by asmodean.nks.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09337 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 12:21:28 -0400 Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 12:21:28 -0400 (EDT) From: X-Sender: To: Subject: Darren Reed's IPFilter package license Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There was recently a big announcement on Slashdot about IPFilter not being free software, with the eventual culmination of festivities being the OpenBSD crew removing it from their CVS tree. Looks like they jumped the gun. Just looked through the source code on a 4 month old install of 4.2-stable and checked out all the ipfilter related copyrights, both kernel and userland code... They are all BSDL or simpler (if that's a legal term:). Darren Reed mentioned he had his own arrangements with the NetBSD and FreeBSD core. Thanks go out to Darren (and his contributors), watcher> pwd /usr/src/contrib/ipfilter watcher> cat LICENCE /* * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. * * The author accepts no responsibility for the use of this software and * provides it on an ``as is'' basis without express or implied warranty. * * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms are permitted * provided that this notice is preserved and due credit is given * to the original author and the contributors. * * This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, * but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of * MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. * * I hate legaleese, don't you ? */ similarly; watcher> pwd /usr/src/sys/netinet watcher> grep -i "darren reed" * fil.c: * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. fil.c:static const char sccsid[] = "@(#)fil.c 1.36 6/5/96 (C) 1993-1996 Darren Reed"; ip_auth.c: * Copyright (C) 1998-2000 by Darren Reed & Guido van Rooij. ip_auth.h: * Copyright (C) 1997-2000 by Darren Reed & Guido Van Rooij. ip_compat.h: * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. ip_fil.c: * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. ip_fil.c:static const char sccsid[] = "@(#)ip_fil.c 2.41 6/5/96 (C) 1993-1995 Darren Reed"; ip_fil.h: * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. ip_frag.c: * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. ip_frag.c:static const char sccsid[] = "@(#)ip_frag.c 1.11 3/24/96 (C) 1993-1995 Darren Reed"; ip_frag.h: * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. ip_log.c: * Copyright (C) 1997-2000 by Darren Reed. ip_nat.c: * Copyright (C) 1995-2000 by Darren Reed. ip_nat.c:static const char sccsid[] = "@(#)ip_nat.c 1.11 6/5/96 (C) 1995 Darren Reed"; ip_nat.h: * Copyright (C) 1995-2000 by Darren Reed. ip_proxy.c: * Copyright (C) 1997-2000 by Darren Reed. ip_proxy.h: * Copyright (C) 1997-2000 by Darren Reed. ip_state.c: * Copyright (C) 1995-2000 by Darren Reed. ip_state.c:static const char sccsid[] = "@(#)ip_state.c 1.8 6/5/96 (C) 1993-1995 Darren Reed"; ip_state.h: * Copyright (C) 1995-2000 by Darren Reed. ip_state.h: * @(#)ip_state.h 1.3 1/12/96 (C) 1995 Darren Reed ipl.h: * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. watcher> head fil.c ==> fil.c <== /* * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. * * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms are permitted * provided that this notice is preserved and due credit is given * to the original author and the contributors. */ #if !defined(lint) static const char sccsid[] = "@(#)fil.c 1.36 6/5/96 (C) 1993-1996 Darren Reed"; /* static const char rcsid[] = "@(#)$Id: fil.c,v 2.3.2.16 2000/01/27 08:49:37 darrenr Exp $"; */ watcher> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 9:54:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from messiah.megadeb.org (cpe.atm0-0-0-218131.arcnxx5.customer.tele.dk [62.242.79.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4078837B423 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:54:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chopra@runbox.com) Received: (from chopra@localhost) by messiah.megadeb.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f4VGu4839569 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 31 May 2001 18:56:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from chopra) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 18:56:04 +0200 From: Munish Chopra To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. Message-ID: <20010531185604.A39485@messiah.megadeb.org> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010531124519.SSJB28488.mta10.onebox.com@onebox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20010531124519.SSJB28488.mta10.onebox.com@onebox.com>; from ctjewett@zdnetonebox.com on Thu, May 31, 2001 at 08:45:19AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 31, 2001 at 08:45:19AM -0400, Christopher T. Jewett wrote: > > Now Sun and HP are actually considering GNOME for their > > own desktops. The commercial guys didn't rescue the commercial Unix > > desktop, so I fail to see where your touching faith in their ability > > to rescue BSD (or Linux) comes from. > > In case you missed it, they're not just considering it. It's actually > happening. Sun officially released Gnome 1.4 for Solaris 8 about 3 weeks > ago. > > http://www.sun.com/software/star/gnome/getgnome14.html > > They're not stopping their, either. After Gnome 2.X is released in mid > 2002, it will be the *default* desktop on Solaris. HP isn't sitting > on it's duff either. I was just going to give a heads-up on this. Rumor now has it they will actually *delay* Solaris 9 just for Gnome 2.0...on the same note, they apparently have at least two people hired to work on Gnome 2.0 full-time. -- -Munish To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 11:19:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0844537B423 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 11:19:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA66909; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:19:22 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:19:22 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: joeo@cracktown.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Darren Reed's IPFilter package license Message-ID: <20010531141922.A66886@blackhelicopters.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from joeo@cracktown.com on Thu, May 31, 2001 at 12:21:28PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There's a big thread about this over on Daemonnews (daily.daemonnews.org) In short: the license does not give the right to either modify or redistribute. Under international copyright law, all rights not explicitly granted are reserved. It might be a simpler license, but it's not as permissive. This is well within Darren's rights as author. The issue isn't "free" as in cost; it's free as in "what you can do with the code." One of the major points of the BSDs is that you can do absolutely anything with the code. This conflicts with the IPFilter license. On Thu, May 31, 2001 at 12:21:28PM -0400, joeo@cracktown.com wrote: > > There was recently a big announcement on Slashdot about IPFilter not being > free software, with the eventual culmination of festivities being the > OpenBSD crew removing it from their CVS tree. Looks like they jumped the > gun. > > Just looked through the source code on a 4 month old install of > 4.2-stable and checked out all the ipfilter related copyrights, both > kernel and userland code... > > They are all BSDL or simpler (if that's a legal term:). > > Darren Reed mentioned he had his own arrangements with the NetBSD and > FreeBSD core. > > Thanks go out to Darren (and his contributors), > > watcher> pwd > /usr/src/contrib/ipfilter > watcher> cat LICENCE > /* > * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. > * > * The author accepts no responsibility for the use of this software and > * provides it on an ``as is'' basis without express or implied warranty. > * > * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms are permitted > * provided that this notice is preserved and due credit is given > * to the original author and the contributors. > * > * This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, > * but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of > * MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. > * > * I hate legaleese, don't you ? > */ > > similarly; > > watcher> pwd > /usr/src/sys/netinet > watcher> grep -i "darren reed" * > fil.c: * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. > fil.c:static const char sccsid[] = "@(#)fil.c 1.36 6/5/96 (C) 1993-1996 > Darren Reed"; > ip_auth.c: * Copyright (C) 1998-2000 by Darren Reed & Guido van Rooij. > ip_auth.h: * Copyright (C) 1997-2000 by Darren Reed & Guido Van Rooij. > ip_compat.h: * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. > ip_fil.c: * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. > ip_fil.c:static const char sccsid[] = "@(#)ip_fil.c 2.41 6/5/96 (C) > 1993-1995 Darren Reed"; > ip_fil.h: * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. > ip_frag.c: * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. > ip_frag.c:static const char sccsid[] = "@(#)ip_frag.c 1.11 3/24/96 (C) > 1993-1995 Darren Reed"; > ip_frag.h: * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. > ip_log.c: * Copyright (C) 1997-2000 by Darren Reed. > ip_nat.c: * Copyright (C) 1995-2000 by Darren Reed. > ip_nat.c:static const char sccsid[] = "@(#)ip_nat.c 1.11 6/5/96 (C) > 1995 Darren Reed"; > ip_nat.h: * Copyright (C) 1995-2000 by Darren Reed. > ip_proxy.c: * Copyright (C) 1997-2000 by Darren Reed. > ip_proxy.h: * Copyright (C) 1997-2000 by Darren Reed. > ip_state.c: * Copyright (C) 1995-2000 by Darren Reed. > ip_state.c:static const char sccsid[] = "@(#)ip_state.c 1.8 6/5/96 (C) > 1993-1995 Darren Reed"; > ip_state.h: * Copyright (C) 1995-2000 by Darren Reed. > ip_state.h: * @(#)ip_state.h 1.3 1/12/96 (C) 1995 Darren Reed > ipl.h: * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. > watcher> head fil.c > ==> fil.c <== > /* > * Copyright (C) 1993-2000 by Darren Reed. > * > * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms are permitted > * provided that this notice is preserved and due credit is given > * to the original author and the contributors. > */ > #if !defined(lint) > static const char sccsid[] = "@(#)fil.c 1.36 6/5/96 (C) 1993-1996 Darren > Reed"; > /* static const char rcsid[] = "@(#)$Id: fil.c,v 2.3.2.16 2000/01/27 > 08:49:37 darrenr Exp $"; */ > watcher> > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 13:59:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (usr.srcsys.org [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6B2F537B423 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:59:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 10961 invoked by uid 1000); 31 May 2001 20:55:24 -0000 Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:55:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joseph A. Mallett" X-X-Sender: To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brett Glass , Subject: Re: The desktop apathy In-Reply-To: <20010531131243.C18115@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >Would you rather pay $5000 per seat or whatever it was for crap like > > >CDE? That's where we'd be if the GPL'd alternatives didn't exist. > > > > Bull. This is no more true than a claim that we'd all have to buy > > Solaris were it not for Linux. Thanks to the BSDs, there is a truly > > free alternative. > > Not for the desktop. Consider: in 1997 (when linux was roughly where > BSD is now, in terms of mindshare) the desktop scene in linux was > pathetic: Red Hat was actually selling a commercial port of CDE to > linux. (This was before they "saw the light" about selling only free > software.) Consider, also, that even *today* CDE is about the only > option you have on a commercial unix -- unless you install something > else by yourself. Unix used to dominate the workstation market in the > early 1990s ("workstation" meant Unix, more or less), and look at that > market today. Now Sun and HP are actually considering GNOME for their > own desktops. The commercial guys didn't rescue the commercial Unix > desktop, so I fail to see where your touching faith in their ability > to rescue BSD (or Linux) comes from. Actually, I like Indigo Magick on my SGI. If someone DOES let HP and Sun use GNOME, I am sure that they'll go under about as fast as SGI is with their Linux stuff. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 14: 0:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9164F37B424 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:00:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10208; Thu, 31 May 2001 15:00:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531145828.0466a150@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 15:00:04 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010531131243.C18115@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010530225235.048b5bb0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010527082742.049003f0@localhost> <20010527172838.A11174@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528020324.0487b570@localhost> <20010528140153.A58103@h24-67-61-12.lb.shawcable.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010528153532.0488ac10@localhost> <20010529112302.A3636@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010529112012.052768c0@localhost> <20010529194223.P3636@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010530225235.048b5bb0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:12 AM 5/31/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Well, I see nothing wrong with the GPL If you are unable to perceive the GPL's impact on markets, worthy businesses, and programmers' livelihoods after all that's been said, it's a hopeless task to convince you. As the old saying goes, "There are none so blind as those who will not see." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 14: 3:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C576737B424 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:03:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10246; Thu, 31 May 2001 15:03:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531150115.00be5ee0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 15:03:07 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , "Christopher T. Jewett" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010531150319.B25098@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010531124519.SSJB28488.mta10.onebox.com@onebox.com> <20010531124519.SSJB28488.mta10.onebox.com@onebox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:03 AM 5/31/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >So -- GNU comes to the rescue of Sun and HP? The entire purpose of the GNU project was, and is, to kill companies such as Sun and HP. They are foolishly clasping the serpent to their breasts. (Not that both haven't done it before.... It was folly for Sun to trust Microsoft with Java or for HP to embrace Windows or hire Bruce Perens.) --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 14:16:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13603.mail.yahoo.com (web13603.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8580137B42C for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:16:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010531211627.48303.qmail@web13603.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13603.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:16:27 PDT Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:16:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Darren Reed's IPFilter package license To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OpenIPF.org is already registered. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 14:38:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 218FE37B422 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:38:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.28]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA15485; Thu, 31 May 2001 23:38:28 +0200 Received: by zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 59F2A14C0B; Thu, 31 May 2001 23:38:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:38:29 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: interesting os comparison charts Message-ID: <20010531233829.A58131@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , Neil Blakey-Milner , "Karsten W. Rohrbach" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010529214403.L85298@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530205056.G29853@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530210351.C65759@rapier.smartspace.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010530210351.C65759@rapier.smartspace.co.za>; from nbm@mithrandr.moria.org on Wed, May 30, 2001 at 09:03:52PM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Neil Blakey-Milner (nbm@mithrandr.moria.org): > I'm reasonably famous for being the cause for better network performance > at my university society. ;) btw, what is a recommended value for a webserver with average load? Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 14:47:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hqsmtp.mks.com (hqsmtp.mks.com [198.73.192.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DBE137B423 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:47:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john.verne@mks.com) Message-ID: <610C0DAE7B14D31193A90060943F3D0A03222A42@hqntexch.mks.com> From: John Verne To: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: IPFilter license issue Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 17:47:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a reference to the issues surrounding the removal of IPF from the OpenBSD -current tree. >From: >There was recently a big announcement on Slashdot about IPFilter not being >free software, with the eventual culmination of festivities being the >OpenBSD crew removing it from their CVS tree. Looks like they jumped the >gun. > An example license follows that is claimed to solve the problem. Unfortunately, this is the very license that seems to have caused the problem. Please see http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.html for an example license that is "good enough" for the OpenBSD team (and others who may need to modify a work for redistribution. jdv x3295 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 14:56: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3B4B337B424 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:56:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 86288 invoked by uid 100); 31 May 2001 21:56:01 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15126.48625.740301.529399@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:56:01 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531150115.00be5ee0@localhost> References: <20010531124519.SSJB28488.mta10.onebox.com@onebox.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010531150115.00be5ee0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass types: > At 07:03 AM 5/31/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >So -- GNU comes to the rescue of Sun and HP? > The entire purpose of the GNU project was, and is, to kill > companies such as Sun and HP. That's more idiotic than Brett's usual treacle. HP isn't a software company, it's a hardware company. They don't write software to sell, they write software to help sell their hardware. They've always been willing to embrace anyone who could provide that software cheaper than they could. Getting someone else to write the software and give it to them for nothing is golden for them. Sun seems to be of two minds, but the one that makes a living peddling hardware is giving people what they want by moving to a standard desktop. Anyone aware enough to have their eyes open can see that the GPL is no more a poison pill than MS is. Possibly less - GPL software doesn't kill technically superior products the way MS does. GPL software - just like any free software - provides an alternative with a quality goal that isn't dictated by the bottom line. That makes life tough on any company trying to beat out the market leader by being technically superior, but if they're trying to beat a product that's already good enough for the mass market, they have no life anyway. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 15: 8:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 884C937B423 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 15:08:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11071; Thu, 31 May 2001 16:07:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531160004.04a02910@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:07:55 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. In-Reply-To: <15126.48625.740301.529399@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531150115.00be5ee0@localhost> <20010531124519.SSJB28488.mta10.onebox.com@onebox.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010531150115.00be5ee0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:56 PM 5/31/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >That's more idiotic than Brett's usual treacle. Red alert! Incoming ad hominem attack detected! >HP isn't a software company, it's a hardware company. Gee, I guess that HP/UX and MPE aren't software. Nor is the embedded code that makes so many of their products tick. >GPL software doesn't >kill technically superior products the way MS does. Not so. GCC has killed many technically superior compilers. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 15:11:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (usr.srcsys.org [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9A13737B422 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 15:11:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 16347 invoked by uid 1000); 31 May 2001 22:07:10 -0000 Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 18:07:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joseph A. Mallett" X-X-Sender: To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531160004.04a02910@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 31 May 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 03:56 PM 5/31/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > >That's more idiotic than Brett's usual treacle. > > Red alert! Incoming ad hominem attack detected! You might be interested to know that RMS' comments about you show up in a Google search for your name. Funny stuff, really, since he sounds so... pathetic? > > >HP isn't a software company, it's a hardware company. > > Gee, I guess that HP/UX and MPE aren't software. Nor is > the embedded code that makes so many of their products > tick. The software bundles that came with a new HP box I've seen recently is even bigger than most SGI bundles. In short: Shitloads of software. Lest not ye forget HP LVM stuff. > > >GPL software doesn't > >kill technically superior products the way MS does. > > Not so. GCC has killed many technically superior compilers. I rather like TenDRA > > --Brett Glass > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 15:17:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B56137B424 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 15:17:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 87095 invoked by uid 100); 31 May 2001 22:17:44 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15126.49928.193515.69087@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 17:17:44 -0500 To: "Joseph A. Mallett" Cc: Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531160004.04a02910@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joseph A. Mallett types: > On Thu, 31 May 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 03:56 PM 5/31/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > >That's more idiotic than Brett's usual treacle. > > Red alert! Incoming ad hominem attack detected! That's not an attack, that's a description. > > >HP isn't a software company, it's a hardware company. > > Gee, I guess that HP/UX and MPE aren't software. Nor is > > the embedded code that makes so many of their products > > tick. > The software bundles that came with a new HP box I've seen recently is > even bigger than most SGI bundles. In short: Shitloads of software. Since you seem to be swalling this tripe, I'd like to point out that I didn't say HP didn't write software. In fact, I said they *did* write software - to help sell their hardware. How much of that "shitloads of software" can you run without having to buy hardware from HP? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 15:33:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0722E37B424 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 15:33:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11394; Thu, 31 May 2001 16:33:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531162942.00c9c600@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:33:00 -0600 To: "Joseph A. Mallett" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. Cc: Mike Meyer , In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531160004.04a02910@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:07 PM 5/31/2001, Joseph A. Mallett wrote: >I rather like TenDRA OpenWatcom will be even better if it's released under a BSD license (which is a distinct possibility, especially if the BSD projects show interest and volunteer help). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 15:35:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3430E37B42C for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 15:35:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11429; Thu, 31 May 2001 16:35:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531163327.00c9dd30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:35:08 -0600 To: Mike Meyer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. Cc: In-Reply-To: <15126.49928.193515.69087@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531160004.04a02910@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:17 PM 5/31/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >That's not an attack, that's a description. It's a floor wax! It's a dessert topping! No, it's BOTH! --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 19:52:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtpf.ha-net.ptd.net (smtpf.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D735137B424 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 19:52:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 19976 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2001 03:52:59 -0000 Received: from mail1.ha-net.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([207.44.96.65]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpf.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 1 Jun 2001 03:52:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 8158 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2001 02:52:51 -0000 Received: from du56.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.56]) (envelope-sender ) by mail.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 1 Jun 2001 02:52:51 -0000 Message-ID: <3B170339.C1F6ED0A@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:51:37 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531150115.00be5ee0@localhost> <20010531124519.SSJB28488.mta10.onebox.com@onebox.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010531150115.00be5ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010531160004.04a02910@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > >GPL software doesn't > >kill technically superior products the way MS does. > > Not so. GCC has killed many technically superior compilers. Had gcc been under a BSD license, it would have been just as deadly. Sure, a company could have made proprietary changes to it, and tried to sell it, but who would buy it? Or, to put it another way, how much could they have charged for it and still sell some? The fate of BSDi shows how difficult it is to sell proprietary versions of BSD-licensed software (at least on commodity hardware). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 20: 9:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D95F37B422 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 20:09:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 155fJK-00009D-00; Thu, 31 May 2001 20:09:14 -0700 Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 20:09:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. In-Reply-To: <3B170339.C1F6ED0A@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 31 May 2001, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > Had gcc been under a BSD license, it would have been just as deadly. > Sure, a company could have made proprietary changes to it, and tried to > sell it, but who would buy it? Or, to put it another way, how much > could they have charged for it and still sell some? The fate of BSDi > shows how difficult it is to sell proprietary versions of BSD-licensed > software (at least on commodity hardware). One example is not enough. (Anyways I don't see the fate of BSD/OS.) Now look at all the proprietary routers, firewalls, UNIX operating systems and various other software that are based on BSD licensed code and are succesfully sold. Is anyone interested in helping make a list? Feel free to email me with proprietary product(s), what BSD code, and any relevant URLs, and I'll start compiling it ... Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 21:45: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n37.san.rr.com (dt051n37.san.rr.com [204.210.32.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DA3937B424 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 21:45:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@DougBarton.net) Received: from DougBarton.net (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n37.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA92220; Thu, 31 May 2001 21:44:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@DougBarton.net) Message-ID: <3B171DB4.83A91243@DougBarton.net> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 21:44:36 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexander Langer Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , "Karsten W. Rohrbach" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: interesting os comparison charts References: <20010529214403.L85298@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530205056.G29853@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530210351.C65759@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <20010531233829.A58131@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alexander Langer wrote: > > Thus spake Neil Blakey-Milner (nbm@mithrandr.moria.org): > > > I'm reasonably famous for being the cause for better network performance > > at my university society. ;) > > btw, what is a recommended value for a webserver with average load? How long is a piece of string? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 21:47:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 501F537B422 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 21:47:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 25580 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2001 04:47:31 -0000 Received: from mail1.ha-net.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([207.44.96.65]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 1 Jun 2001 04:47:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 15449 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2001 04:47:29 -0000 Received: from du03.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.3]) (envelope-sender ) by mail.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 1 Jun 2001 04:47:29 -0000 Message-ID: <3B171E17.348C44E5@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 00:46:15 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > > On Thu, 31 May 2001, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > > Had gcc been under a BSD license, it would have been just as deadly. > > Sure, a company could have made proprietary changes to it, and tried to > > sell it, but who would buy it? Or, to put it another way, how much > > could they have charged for it and still sell some? The fate of BSDi > > shows how difficult it is to sell proprietary versions of BSD-licensed > > software (at least on commodity hardware). > > One example is not enough. (Anyways I don't see the fate of BSD/OS.) Presumably it (BSD/OS) would not have been sold if it had been more than marginally profitable. (Of course, this is just a presumption; I have no inside information.) > Now look at all the proprietary routers, firewalls, UNIX operating systems > and various other software that are based on BSD licensed code and are > succesfully sold. It is one thing to incorporate BSD-licensed code in a larger product, and quite another to try to sell a proprietary version of a free product. Also note that I referred to commodity hardware; selling BSD-licensed code in conjuction with proprietary hardware would be much easier. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 21:48:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E0FE37B423 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 21:48:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15160; Thu, 31 May 2001 22:48:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531224653.00e31c40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:48:09 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. In-Reply-To: <3B170339.C1F6ED0A@mail.ptd.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531150115.00be5ee0@localhost> <20010531124519.SSJB28488.mta10.onebox.com@onebox.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010531150115.00be5ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010531160004.04a02910@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:51 PM 5/31/2001, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >> Not so. GCC has killed many technically superior compilers. > >Had gcc been under a BSD license, it would have been just as deadly. Not so. Companies could have stayed several steps ahead of it but retained near-perfect compatibility. (This works better for tools such as compilers than it does for operating systems.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 21:52: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 37B2237B424 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 21:52:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 95812 invoked by uid 100); 1 Jun 2001 04:52:03 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15127.8051.631453.515533@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:52:03 -0500 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. In-Reply-To: <3B171E17.348C44E5@mail.ptd.net> References: <3B171E17.348C44E5@mail.ptd.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thomas M. Sommers types: > It is one thing to incorporate BSD-licensed code in a larger product, > and quite another to try to sell a proprietary version of a free > product. Also note that I referred to commodity hardware; selling > BSD-licensed code in conjuction with proprietary hardware would be much > easier. GPL-licensed code can also be sold in conjunction with proprietary hardware. Witness Tivo. It looks like they're going to get rolled over by MS, though. That has nothing to do with their incorporating GPL'ed code into their business. MS would have the same effect if they had used BSD-licensed code. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 31 22:13:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2697E37B42C for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 22:13:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 26892 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2001 05:13:50 -0000 Received: from mail1.ha-net.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([207.44.96.65]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 1 Jun 2001 05:13:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 20317 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2001 05:13:47 -0000 Received: from du35.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.35]) (envelope-sender ) by mail.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 1 Jun 2001 05:13:47 -0000 Message-ID: <3B172442.DC68C5AC@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 01:12:34 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > > > Sure, a company could have made proprietary changes to it, and tried to > > sell it, but who would buy it? Or, to put it another way, how much > > could they have charged for it and still sell some? > > That's the right question -- how much could they have charged for it and > still sell some? Well, you asked the question, answer it. I'll tell you the > answer -- precisely as much as their improvements are worth to the buyer. My suggestion is that it is unlikely that the improvements would be worth enough to the buyer to pay for their developement. Not impossible, mind you, but unlikely. Recall that the `it' being referred to is gcc. Assume that gcc were under a BSD-style license. How much would you pay for a proprietary version that fixed whatever you consider the worst parts of gcc? How many others would be willing to pay that much? > Do you get it? That's the difference between the two licenses. Yes, I get it; do you? Of course it's theoretically possible to sell proprietary versions of BSD-licensed software; I am merely suggesting that it is very difficult to do so profitably. > > The fate of BSDi > > shows how difficult it is to sell proprietary versions of BSD-licensed > > software (at least on commodity hardware). > > Absolutely. The improvements have to be worth more than the loss of the > advantages of open source. In other words, you have to make a damned good > product to sell it. And that's a good thing. The improvements also have to be worth more than they cost to produce. And that's a very difficult thing. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 3:32:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD66737B423 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 03:32:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA58150; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:32:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Doug Barton Cc: Alexander Langer , Neil Blakey-Milner , "Karsten W. Rohrbach" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: interesting os comparison charts References: <20010529214403.L85298@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530205056.G29853@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530210351.C65759@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <20010531233829.A58131@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> <3B171DB4.83A91243@DougBarton.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 01 Jun 2001 12:32:14 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3B171DB4.83A91243@DougBarton.net> Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug Barton writes: > Alexander Langer wrote: > > btw, what is a recommended value for a webserver with average load? > How long is a piece of string? Not very. Depends on its length. How long a piece of string do you need? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 5: 1:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C688A37B422 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 05:01:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f51C10639059 ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:01:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA74996 ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:01:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:01:39 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: "Christopher T. Jewett" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. Message-ID: <20010601140139.C73348@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010531124519.SSJB28488.mta10.onebox.com@onebox.com> <20010531124519.SSJB28488.mta10.onebox.com@onebox.com> <20010531150319.B25098@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010531150115.00be5ee0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531150115.00be5ee0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, May 31, 2001 at 03:03:07PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on May 31, 2001 at 15:03:07: > > >So -- GNU comes to the rescue of Sun and HP? > > The entire purpose of the GNU project was, and is, to kill > companies such as Sun and HP. They are foolishly clasping > the serpent to their breasts. (Not that both haven't done > it before.... It was folly for Sun to trust Microsoft with > Java or for HP to embrace Windows or hire Bruce Perens.) OK, I get the picture. (1) Free software projects will not produce a commercial-quality desktop. (2) Even if free projects do, GPL'd projects won't because they can't be commercialised. (3) Even if a GPL'd project does produce a high-quality desktop, commercial companies will never be interested in taking it up or developing it further, still less adopting it. (4) If they are in fact interested and do all these things, they are making a mistake, because, as we all know, the GPL is really not a license, but a wicked serpent. (5) Therefore, one should oppose GPL'd software no matter what. All clear now. Thanks for enlightening me. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 5: 6:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-66.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16E0037B423 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 05:06:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 637FE675B2; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 05:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 05:06:39 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Doug Barton , Alexander Langer , Neil Blakey-Milner , "Karsten W. Rohrbach" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: interesting os comparison charts Message-ID: <20010601050638.A82584@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010529214403.L85298@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530205056.G29853@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530210351.C65759@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <20010531233829.A58131@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> <3B171DB4.83A91243@DougBarton.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:32:14PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 12:32:14PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Doug Barton writes: > > Alexander Langer wrote: > > > btw, what is a recommended value for a webserver with average load? > > How long is a piece of string? >=20 > Not very. Depends on its length. How long a piece of string do you > need? 10^-33 cm, please! Kris --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7F4VOWry0BWjoQKURAgijAJ9WcqCzlOdNj06S0iS42QuT0UJnyACfeTOI Dvt9J26FVoDtJB4KJuPG6T8= =a/SK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6c2NcOVqGQ03X4Wi-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 5: 7:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE04B37B422 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 05:07:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f51C7R639985 ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:07:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA75263 ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:08:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:08:07 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. Message-ID: <20010601140807.D73348@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531150115.00be5ee0@localhost> <20010531124519.SSJB28488.mta10.onebox.com@onebox.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010531150115.00be5ee0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20010531160004.04a02910@localhost> <3B170339.C1F6ED0A@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B170339.C1F6ED0A@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Thu, May 31, 2001 at 10:51:37PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thomas M. Sommers said on May 31, 2001 at 22:51:37: > Had gcc been under a BSD license, it would have been just as deadly. > Sure, a company could have made proprietary changes to it, and tried to > sell it, but who would buy it? Or, to put it another way, how much > could they have charged for it and still sell some? The fate of BSDi > shows how difficult it is to sell proprietary versions of BSD-licensed > software (at least on commodity hardware). For that matter, consider SSH's problems with OpenSSH. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 5:19:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5434637B423 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 05:19:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.28]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA11561; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:19:13 +0200 Received: by zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D6A5F14BC1; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:19:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:19:13 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Doug Barton , Neil Blakey-Milner , "Karsten W. Rohrbach" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: interesting os comparison charts Message-ID: <20010601141913.A2995@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , Kris Kennaway , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Doug Barton , Neil Blakey-Milner , "Karsten W. Rohrbach" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010529214403.L85298@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530205056.G29853@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530210351.C65759@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <20010531233829.A58131@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> <3B171DB4.83A91243@DougBarton.net> <20010601050638.A82584@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010601050638.A82584@xor.obsecurity.org>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 05:06:39AM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Thus spake Kris Kennaway (kris@obsecurity.org): > > > Alexander Langer wrote: > > > > btw, what is a recommended value for a webserver with average load? > > > How long is a piece of string? > > Not very. Depends on its length. How long a piece of string do you > > need? > 10^-33 cm, please! Folks, thanks for your serious answers. Really. Considering the recent discussions on -advocacy etc, that's just quite amusing. Alex PS: You will probably come with the flame-stick and beat me up, what a silly question I asked, because the right value has too many dependencies from the individual situation/hardware/etc. Then consider the one possibility, why this could have been asked, and you got the answer. --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.3 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQEVAwUBOxeIQLRIIUSeqRcRAQEnxgf/UXyEBui0K7R38qSlQqY4J5NZVkFRwj0r 1DHCmohAWUGpzAP6w3g0dEx7st1JW655s6hm7KJYyVdDdmVrt9YsJht9dKk5GGun cuv0ambo642cXzuUSmCv3+ovMlJZSa9RnvE8AsFi0LYeaB5Ee4JitZWeA5MQyn2u Q9DUR8SMBEHaRZqW9DHA2CncIRae0iOY4pSipdnEwdxn+Ld0rJXCFHLPgD4r/gtI 6XR3exPmbCzFpbl3p4Nn1ev/7Tc8C0yB+KHMw1GM3aRpiIbN9VrHacqb6VvF2RVL E53AHO6mp8lNnu+gslcf0PI5IvDVsHZtMnKVkF4XqbtT+fVQNWDzTQ== =1SVL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 5:21:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398B337B423 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 05:21:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f51CLi641694 ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:21:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA75947 ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:22:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:22:23 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Joseph A. Mallett" Cc: Brett Glass , Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. Message-ID: <20010601142223.E73348@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531160004.04a02910@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jmallett@xMach.org on Thu, May 31, 2001 at 06:07:07PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joseph A. Mallett said on May 31, 2001 at 18:07:07: > > You might be interested to know that RMS' comments about you show up in a > Google search for your name. Interesting. Thanks. > Funny stuff, really, since he sounds so... > pathetic? Does he? He sounds quite accurate to me, and much more well-expressed and rational than his attacker. But I suppose it depends on your point of view: some think anyone associated with the GPL must be "pathetic" or "rabid" or a "zealot", by definition. If you want to use GPL code, be willing to give back. Don't demand to use it as you like, any more than you would demand source code from Borland to use as you would like. It's that simple. In fact it's even simpler: you're only asked to give back your source addition if you're distributing binaries. If you're using it for your own private purposes, you can do what you like (notwithstanding persistent claims to the contrary on this list). R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 5:48:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.tfcc.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EA6037B423 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 05:48:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cfuhrman@tfcci.com) Received: (from mail@localhost) by proxy.tfcc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00400; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:49:08 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: proxy.tfcc.com: mail set sender to using -f Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by proxy.tfcc.com via smap (V2.1/2.1a) id xma000398; Fri, 1 Jun 01 08:49:00 -0400 Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:48:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Fuhrman X-X-Sender: To: Doug Barton Cc: Alexander Langer , Neil Blakey-Milner , "Karsten W. Rohrbach" , Subject: Re: interesting os comparison charts In-Reply-To: <3B171DB4.83A91243@DougBarton.net> Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 31 May 2001, Doug Barton wrote: > How long is a piece of string? > Forty-Two. -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 6:45: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmonster.de (datasink.webmonster.de [194.162.162.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0A61237B423 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 06:45:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from karsten@rohrbach.de) Received: (qmail 10909 invoked by uid 1000); 1 Jun 2001 13:45:23 -0000 Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 15:45:23 +0200 From: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" To: Alexander Langer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: interesting os comparison charts Message-ID: <20010601154523.A10477@mail.webmonster.de> References: <20010529214403.L85298@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530205056.G29853@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530210351.C65759@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <20010531233829.A58131@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010531233829.A58131@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d>; from alex@big.endian.de on Thu, May 31, 2001 at 11:38:29PM +0200 X-Arbitrary-Number-Of-The-Day: 42 X-URL: http://www.webmonster.de/ X-Disclaimer: My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my employer Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alexander Langer(alex@big.endian.de)@2001.05.31 23:38:29 +0000: > Thus spake Neil Blakey-Milner (nbm@mithrandr.moria.org): >=20 > > I'm reasonably famous for being the cause for better network performance > > at my university society. ;) >=20 > btw, what is a recommended value for a webserver with average load? value for what? MAXUSERS? NMBCLUSTERS? cpu core voltage? i have the core on high capacity servers running at 110 volts which leads to transaction times of one tenth and less compared with the standard setting of 2.0 volts ;-) no, seriously, what machine in terms of cpu/ram and network connectivity, what server software (apache/...), applications (php/mod_python), database, how many object requests per sec? session support? etc... i had one smp box with 2* piii-500 and a gig of ram, 3 fxp cards and apache running with ~5000 object requests/sec (http), mean object size was around 1k (a lot of interface graphics) and it kept going that way at a load of >900 for one week until the loadbalancer was delivered and we started pulling the web site apart onto several boxes ;-) the database load of the mysql server in the background was the problem in the first place so we split that up to another box first. well, things like FD_SETSIZE are the biggest problem there i think. with MAXUSERS=3D256 and NMBCLUSTERS=3D32768 and some minor tweaks the box ran. the shell was a little slow but every http transfer was fast like hell, i guess this behaviour is caused by apache using sendfile(). please Cc: me in replies, i am not on -chat /k --=20 > Jesus died for your sins. Make it worth his time. KR433/KR11-RIPE -- WebMonster Community Founder -- nGENn GmbH Senior Techie http://www.webmonster.de/ -- ftp://ftp.webmonster.de/ -- http://www.ngenn.n= et/ karsten&rohrbach.de -- alpha&ngenn.net -- alpha&scene.org -- catch@spam.de GnuPG 0x2964BF46 2001-03-15 42F9 9FFF 50D4 2F38 DBEE DF22 3340 4F4E 2964 B= F46 --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7F5xzM0BPTilkv0YRArt1AJ447gq4A+GOzFzpngj1Amj6i5EuRgCfW/O8 yJxhMPJ0UHMu8M/3SNS2wxk= =J9q4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 7:42:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A200537B423 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 07:42:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.28]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA16740; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:42:22 +0200 Received: by zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (Postfix, from userid 1001) id CEED714BC1; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:42:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:42:22 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: interesting os comparison charts Message-ID: <20010601164222.A4578@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Langer , "Karsten W. Rohrbach" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010529214403.L85298@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530205056.G29853@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530210351.C65759@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <20010531233829.A58131@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> <20010601154523.A10477@mail.webmonster.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="J2SCkAp4GZ/dPZZf" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010601154523.A10477@mail.webmonster.de>; from karsten@rohrbach.de on Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:45:23PM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --J2SCkAp4GZ/dPZZf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Also sprach Karsten W. Rohrbach (karsten@rohrbach.de): > > Thus spake Neil Blakey-Milner (nbm@mithrandr.moria.org): > > > I'm reasonably famous for being the cause for better network performance > > > at my university society. ;) > > btw, what is a recommended value for a webserver with average load? > value for what? > MAXUSERS? > NMBCLUSTERS? Heh, we were speaking about NMBCLUSTERS :-) > no, seriously, what machine in terms of cpu/ram and network > connectivity, what server software (apache/...), applications > (php/mod_python), database, how many object requests per sec? session > support? etc... Well, I'm more interested in some charts, that shows the performance of various NMBCLUSTERS values up to - uhm BIG values (> 2^20). Knowing these it could be easier to decide what's better for a certain usage. I thought maybe someone has already done some, since I could imagine, that a too high value could decrease speed again (due to memory utilization overhead). I'm currently using 2^14, which seems to be a good choice, when I take a look at your value. Alex --J2SCkAp4GZ/dPZZf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.3 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iQEVAwUBOxepzbRIIUSeqRcRAQGF4ggAg1hEbBNGpHoxQLGZtzuKqcNrAXWyRSTl fK+Z64pkP7dUzVOnuL5hX4yvW/FMuWIrUclUxuuqj3g1UKQ+iPcq+f+TkqdW2990 fZf5W8U92rVHHtAouAWKg3vpPhSadwzhemY1lehuQMVU0rZarQVW2zK2phXQadwH +lumrHruETBmJ4AFxKuIh6rC5lzpNg0D1c4orxeiMJFjECkBTrgBjZqGX6tpuLYP kqZ4JPpyztPCv4UeYyTMDXAplhcYkzrVTFfNV0g03oCH1CJVgxuA0y3lSTG2w2Ee 6Ol+Pd+Co81F+ZsD3ffwfgM+mfAsl+DQ2/QOYyZFQpUiTW5od21a/g== =TYXh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --J2SCkAp4GZ/dPZZf-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 7:58:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from madcap.apk.net (madcap.apk.net [207.54.158.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2A5737B423 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 07:58:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@krivis.com) X-IP-Test: 207.54.133.91 Received: from kleenex (sgk@kleenex.apk.net [207.54.133.91]) by madcap.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with ESMTP id f51EwNj17385 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 10:58:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 10:58:22 -0400 From: Stuart Krivis To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The desktop apathy Message-ID: <1094560000.991407502@kleenex> In-Reply-To: <20010527121833P.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.8 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Sunday, May 27, 2001 12:18:33 -0700 Jordan Hubbard wrote: > Apple can't afford to do that, and a lot of their Carbon and Cocoa > framework is all about providing bridgework for their classic OS 9 > customer base. If you write an application to the Carbon API, for > example, it will run on both older and newer Macs. That's extremely I am not completely thrilled with OS X. The GUI is not as good in some ways as NeXT/OPENSTEP IMO. But I found OPENSTEP to be an extremely elegant OS. It was no longer modern, but it still was ahead of some other systems in some areas. Aqua is good, but it seems a bit confused. They didn't want to completely alienate their loyal MacOS userbase, so they Macified NS/OS. They also wanted to keep some of the good features of NS/OS. Unfortunately, the overall concept of the Aqua GUI isn't quite there yet. Classic/Carbon/Cocoa: I'm glad I have the ability to run some Classic apps. Carbon? I know why they did it, but Carbon sucks. Cocoa is very nice, but they need to put back some things they took out. :-) This also means that you have 3 different subsets of the GUI functionality. It's a pain to have to deal with 3 ways of doing things. > their AppBuilder stuff sometime and see how you can connect stuff > graphically to ObjectiveC classes. Very powerful. This was always NeXT's biggest draw. It was a wonderful developer's platform. I know people who will talk for hours about how great it was. "Insanely great." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 8: 8:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta09.onebox.com (mta09.onebox.com [64.68.76.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6656337B422 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:08:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ctjewett@zdnetonebox.com) Received: from onebox.com ([10.1.101.5]) by mta09.onebox.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.21 201-229-121-121-20010307) with SMTP id <20010601150824.KOGF18323.mta09.onebox.com@onebox.com>; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:08:24 -0700 Received: from [199.186.63.195] by onebox.com with HTTP; Fri, 01 Jun 2001 08:08:24 -0700 Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:08:24 -0400 Subject: Re: The desktop apathy From: "Christopher T. Jewett" To: Stuart Krivis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="1BoxPartBoundary99140810428204991408104" Message-Id: <20010601150824.KOGF18323.mta09.onebox.com@onebox.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --1BoxPartBoundary99140810428204991408104 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I know it's OOP, but does anyone know where I could get a copy of Nextstep/Openstep? I've looked for some sort of software archive that might sell the original box for it, or something, but it seems like everything is gone. As an OS enthusiast, I've always been interested in Next. Anyone here be willing to part with their copy for $$ or send me a copy? :-) I know there's WindowMaker, GNUstep, etc, but it's not the same as the complete OS experience. Thanks! Chris ---- Stuart Krivis wrote: > > > --On Sunday, May 27, 2001 12:18:33 -0700 Jordan Hubbard > > wrote: > > > > Apple can't afford to do that, and a lot of their Carbon and Cocoa > > framework is all about providing bridgework for their classic OS > 9 > > customer base. If you write an application to the Carbon API, for > > example, it will run on both older and newer Macs. That's extremely > > I am not completely thrilled with OS X. The GUI is not as good in some > ways > as NeXT/OPENSTEP IMO. But I found OPENSTEP to be an extremely elegant > OS. > It was no longer modern, but it still was ahead of some other systems > in > some areas. > > Aqua is good, but it seems a bit confused. They didn't want to completely > > alienate their loyal MacOS userbase, so they Macified NS/OS. They also > > wanted to keep some of the good features of NS/OS. Unfortunately, the > > overall concept of the Aqua GUI isn't quite there yet. > > Classic/Carbon/Cocoa: I'm glad I have the ability to run some Classic > apps. > Carbon? I know why they did it, but Carbon sucks. Cocoa is very nice, > but > they need to put back some things they took out. :-) > > This also means that you have 3 different subsets of the GUI functionality. > > It's a pain to have to deal with 3 ways of doing things. > > > > their AppBuilder stuff sometime and see how you can connect stuff > > graphically to ObjectiveC classes. Very powerful. > > This was always NeXT's biggest draw. It was a wonderful developer's > > platform. I know people who will talk for hours about how great it > was. > "Insanely great." > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > ___________________________________________________________________ To get your own FREE ZDNet Onebox - FREE voicemail, email, and fax, all in one place - sign up today at http://www.zdnetonebox.com --1BoxPartBoundary99140810428204991408104 Content-type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment Content-Description: vCard for Christopher Jewett YmVnaW46dmNhcmQNCnZlcnNpb246My4wDQpGTjpDaHJpc3RvcGhlciAgSmV3ZXR0DQpOOkpl d2V0dDtDaHJpc3RvcGhlciA7OzsNCkFEUjo7OzM2MjQgTmlhZ2FyYSBTdHJlZXQ7V2F5bmU7 TUk7NDgxODQtMTk1ODs7DQpFTUFJTDtUWVBFPWludGVybmV0OmN0amV3ZXR0QHpkbmV0b25l Ym94LmNvbQ0KVEVMO1RZUEU9dm9pY2UsZmF4LHByZWYsbXNnOig0MTUpIDQzMC0yMTYxIHgx MjUwDQpURUw7VFlQRT12b2ljZSxob21lOig3MzQpIDcyOS0yNjIwDQpURUw7VFlQRT12b2lj ZSx3b3JrOigyNDgpIDMyNC00NDU4eDEzOA0KVEVMO1RZUEU9cGFnZXI6KDczNCkgNTA0LTU1 ODYNClVSTDpodHRwOi8vd3d3LmthbnR1cy5jb20NCmVuZDp2Y2FyZA0K --1BoxPartBoundary99140810428204991408104-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 9:38:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from meow.osd.bsdi.com (meow.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4B7E37B43C for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:38:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by meow.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f51GcLG71726; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:38:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3B171E17.348C44E5@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 09:38:24 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Subject: Re: The desktop apathy? I think not. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Jun-01 Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: >> >> On Thu, 31 May 2001, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >> >> > Had gcc been under a BSD license, it would have been just as deadly. >> > Sure, a company could have made proprietary changes to it, and tried to >> > sell it, but who would buy it? Or, to put it another way, how much >> > could they have charged for it and still sell some? The fate of BSDi >> > shows how difficult it is to sell proprietary versions of BSD-licensed >> > software (at least on commodity hardware). >> >> One example is not enough. (Anyways I don't see the fate of BSD/OS.) > > Presumably it (BSD/OS) would not have been sold if it had been more than > marginally profitable. (Of course, this is just a presumption; I have > no inside information.) On the contrary, you don't buy the part of the company that is losing money. You buy the part that is making money. Your presumptions are rather wrong, but that's all I'll say. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 9:57:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n37.san.rr.com (dt051n37.san.rr.com [204.210.32.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7AD37B423 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:57:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@DougBarton.net) Received: from DougBarton.net (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n37.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA96107; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:57:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@DougBarton.net) Message-ID: <3B17C976.37FB4C95@DougBarton.net> Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 09:57:26 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Verne Cc: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: IPFilter license issue References: <610C0DAE7B14D31193A90060943F3D0A03222A42@hqntexch.mks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Verne wrote: > > This is a reference to the issues surrounding the removal of IPF from the > OpenBSD -current tree. Darren and our core team are already working out the details of how to keep it on OUR tree. There are plenty of other forums to discuss openbsd's actions, please use one of them. Thanks, Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 11:29:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phaidor.thuvia.org (thuvia.demon.co.uk [193.237.34.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6532F37B423 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:29:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@thuvia.demon.co.uk) Received: from dotar-sojat.thuvia.org (dotar-sojat.thuvia.org [10.0.0.4]) by phaidor.thuvia.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f51ITJe09431; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:29:19 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@dotar-sojat.thuvia.org) Received: (from mark@localhost) by dotar-sojat.thuvia.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f51ITQg83903; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:29:26 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:29:26 +0100 (BST) From: Mark Valentine Message-Id: <200106011829.f51ITQg83903@dotar-sojat.thuvia.org> In-Reply-To: Kris Kennaway's message of Jun 1, 3:37pm X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 beta(5) 10/07/98) To: kris@obsecurity.org (Kris Kennaway) Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? Cc: chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From: kris@obsecurity.org (Kris Kennaway) > Date: Fri 1 Jun, 2001 > Subject: Re: IPFilter not free software? > The FTP binary contains UCB copyright notices so we know it does (it's > a straight port of the old BSD ftp client): It was originally BSD ftp, but that's not what Microsoft started with, see below. > > strings FTP.EXE | grep "University of California" > @(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California. $ strings FTP.EXE | grep -C3 TLI @(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. %1:TLOOK returned %2!d!%0 %1:TLI Error %2!d! poll failed%0 Timeout occurred t_look returned %1!d! Don't ask me how they managed to leave _that_ code in (they didn't have TLI to compile it against, and it wasn't even compiled for most of the original vendor's ports; they probably didn't use -DNO_TLI and instead "borrowed" the TLI headers from a nearby System V box...)! The product which they ported to Windows NT was a STREAMS implementation, and STREAMS remained in NT at least through to 4.0 though they replaced the TCP/IP implementation itself after they made a meal of fitting the STREAMS implementation into the NT architecture. The version of ftp Microsoft started with worked only against the STREAMS TCP/IP implemen- tation (though it had both sockets and TLI interfaces to TCP). Likewise look at the slightly non-BSD command options to NETSTAT.EXE - I wrote that utility for SVR3 from scratch early in my career as an interim measure until we had a better set of STREAMS-based statistics/diagnostics tools (I should have known better... ;-), so I didn't care much about compatibility with the BSD implementation (my version used STREAMS ioctls rather than grubbing around in kernel memory, had no routing table hooks or sockets knowledge, and so on). (It wasn't until I wondered about the non-standard netstat options in the Windows 95 resource kit documentation and familiarity dawned on me that I realised this stuff had spread beyond the early versions of NT!) Oh, and the TCP/IP product documentation Microsoft bought _did_ acknowledge UCB, though our core TCP/IP implementation derived from another source. Cheers, Mark. -- Mark Valentine, Thuvia Labs "Tigers will do ANYTHING for a tuna fish sandwich." Mark Valentine uses "We're kind of stupid that way." *munch* *munch* and endorses FreeBSD -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 11:38:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmonster.de (datasink.webmonster.de [194.162.162.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CF34137B423 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:38:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from karsten@rohrbach.de) Received: (qmail 20238 invoked by uid 1000); 1 Jun 2001 18:38:48 -0000 Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 20:38:48 +0200 From: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" To: Alexander Langer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: jkh@freebsd.org Subject: NMBCLUSTERS setting in default kernel Message-ID: <20010601203848.J10477@mail.webmonster.de> References: <20010529214403.L85298@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530205056.G29853@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530210351.C65759@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <20010531233829.A58131@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> <20010601154523.A10477@mail.webmonster.de> <20010601164222.A4578@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="yr/DzoowOgTDcSCF" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010601164222.A4578@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d>; from alex@big.endian.de on Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 04:42:22PM +0200 X-Arbitrary-Number-Of-The-Day: 42 X-URL: http://www.webmonster.de/ X-Disclaimer: My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my employer Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --yr/DzoowOgTDcSCF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alexander Langer(alex@big.endian.de)@2001.06.01 16:42:22 +0000: > Well, I'm more interested in some charts, that shows the performance > of various NMBCLUSTERS values up to - uhm BIG values (> 2^20). > Knowing these it could be easier to decide what's better for a certain > usage. >=20 > I thought maybe someone has already done > some, since I could imagine, that a too high value could decrease > speed again (due to memory utilization overhead). >=20 > I'm currently using 2^14, which seems to be a good choice, when I take > a look at your value. NMBCLUSTERS=3D16384 is my default kernel setting on all machines. it is also my proposition to get this into the default kernel. larger values like 256k would make the box slower i think. jordan: would 16384 make sense or would it kill machines with low mem? /k --=20 > Hackers do it with all sorts of characters. KR433/KR11-RIPE -- WebMonster Community Founder -- nGENn GmbH Senior Techie http://www.webmonster.de/ -- ftp://ftp.webmonster.de/ -- http://www.ngenn.n= et/ karsten&rohrbach.de -- alpha&ngenn.net -- alpha&scene.org -- catch@spam.de GnuPG 0x2964BF46 2001-03-15 42F9 9FFF 50D4 2F38 DBEE DF22 3340 4F4E 2964 B= F46 --yr/DzoowOgTDcSCF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7F+E4M0BPTilkv0YRAhKDAKCpURpljEUfoVI9072U/CpCJxiMjgCgiRBv E7TzrikbuotMMD+n2CKycOE= =8gZ6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --yr/DzoowOgTDcSCF-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 11:48:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBA6A37B42C; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:48:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@root.com) Received: (from dg@localhost) by root.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f51IehJ94068; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:40:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:40:43 -0700 From: David Greenman To: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" Cc: Alexander Langer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NMBCLUSTERS setting in default kernel Message-ID: <20010601114043.L19893@nexus.root.com> References: <20010529214403.L85298@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530205056.G29853@mail.webmonster.de> <20010530210351.C65759@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <20010531233829.A58131@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> <20010601154523.A10477@mail.webmonster.de> <20010601164222.A4578@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> <20010601203848.J10477@mail.webmonster.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20010601203848.J10477@mail.webmonster.de>; from karsten@rohrbach.de on Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 08:38:48PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Alexander Langer(alex@big.endian.de)@2001.06.01 16:42:22 +0000: >> Well, I'm more interested in some charts, that shows the performance >> of various NMBCLUSTERS values up to - uhm BIG values (> 2^20). >> Knowing these it could be easier to decide what's better for a certain >> usage. >> >> I thought maybe someone has already done >> some, since I could imagine, that a too high value could decrease >> speed again (due to memory utilization overhead). >> >> I'm currently using 2^14, which seems to be a good choice, when I take >> a look at your value. >NMBCLUSTERS=16384 is my default kernel setting on all machines. >it is also my proposition to get this into the default kernel. >larger values like 256k would make the box slower i think. > >jordan: would 16384 make sense or would it kill machines with low mem? NMBCLUSTERS only sets the limit. It has the effect of pre-allocating kernel virtual memory, so setting it arbitrarily high needs to be avoided since it can lead to running out of kernel VM. It's current value defaults to something that is based on the maximum number of processes configured (multiplied times a constant) plus a constant slush amount. The values of both of these could be tweaked, but setting it to a specific value (i.e. disabling the automatic sizing) for all configurations is probably a bad idea. -DG David Greenman Co-founder, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org President, TeraSolutions, Inc. - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 11:57: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE44837B422 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:57:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA22566 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:56:59 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:56:59 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Glass Message-Id: <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Where's BSD in this picture? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://cgi.mercurycenter.com/premium/comics/06_01/doonesbury.gif To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 1 17:34: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9639937B424 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 17:34:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 155zMS-00010t-00; Fri, 01 Jun 2001 17:33:48 -0700 Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 17:33:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Michael Lucas Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Darren Reed's IPFilter package license In-Reply-To: <20010531141922.A66886@blackhelicopters.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 31 May 2001, Michael Lucas wrote: > One of the major points of the BSDs is that you can do absolutely > anything with the code. This conflicts with the IPFilter license. Interestingly, the tcp_wrappers license was very similar to to the IP Filter license. Today, Wietse Venema updated his license to add "with or without modification". http://www.bsdtoday.com/2001/June/Features496.html A few more vague or bad licenses to go ... [other major unnecessary junk clipped] Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 2 8: 3:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBECA37B424; Sat, 2 Jun 2001 08:03:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f52F3GO66437; Sat, 2 Jun 2001 08:03:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: karsten@rohrbach.de Cc: alex@big.endian.de, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NMBCLUSTERS setting in default kernel In-Reply-To: <20010601203848.J10477@mail.webmonster.de> References: <20010601154523.A10477@mail.webmonster.de> <20010601164222.A4578@zerogravity.kawo2.rwth-aachen.d> <20010601203848.J10477@mail.webmonster.de> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010602080316I.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 08:03:16 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think it would kill machines with low ram. Have you tried also playing with maxusers? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 2 9:32: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1967937B424 for ; Sat, 2 Jun 2001 09:32:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Received: from cfcl.com (cpe-24-221-169-54.ca.sprintbbd.net [24.221.169.54]) by idiom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA55759 for ; Sat, 2 Jun 2001 09:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.168.205] (cerberus [192.168.168.205]) by cfcl.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f52GXbK33465 for ; Sat, 2 Jun 2001 09:33:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> References: <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 09:24:09 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Rich Morin Subject: Re: Where's BSD in this picture? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:56 PM -0600 6/1/01, Brett Glass wrote: >http://cgi.mercurycenter.com/premium/comics/06_01/doonesbury.gif Now shipping as part of every "Apple" system... -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta/md_fb.html - The FreeBSD Browser email: rdm@cfcl.com; phone: +1 650-873-7841 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 2 11:13:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D9F37B423 for ; Sat, 2 Jun 2001 11:13:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03923; Sat, 2 Jun 2001 12:13:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010602105353.04a1bd00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 10:54:55 -0600 To: Rich Morin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Where's BSD in this picture? In-Reply-To: References: <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:24 AM 6/2/2001, Rich Morin wrote: >At 12:56 PM -0600 6/1/01, Brett Glass wrote: >>http://cgi.mercurycenter.com/premium/comics/06_01/doonesbury.gif > >Now shipping as part of every "Apple" system... And, alas, most often not activated. OS X has a ways to go yet before the average user will want to run it. Note that Linux was mentioned explicitly but not the BSDs. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 2 11:51:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E7837B424 for ; Sat, 2 Jun 2001 11:51:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Received: from duth.gr (foo.duth.gr [193.92.210.14]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f52IpQS10819; Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:51:26 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3B1935A0.F809735A@duth.gr> Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 21:51:12 +0300 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: I've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Where's BSD in this picture? References: <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> <200106011856.MAA22566@lariat.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010602105353.04a1bd00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > Note that Linux was mentioned explicitly but not the BSDs. > Yeah, I couldn't help not noticing that AdaOS, AIX, Amoeba, AtheOS, BeOS, CPM, DOS, EPOC, EROS, GEOS, HP-UX, Inferno, IRIX, ITS, MINIX, Multics, Netware, NeXT, OS/2, OSF 1, Palm OS, Plan 9, QNX, REAL-32, RISC OS, RxDOS, Solaris, THEOS, TRON, VMS, VSTa and any of the BSDs were not explicitly mentioned. I suppose we should all shoot him or something. --kkonstan PS I forgot to mention Fox, Nemesis, Mungi, ThreadX and whatever it is that Amiga was shipping. Oh, and Apollo Domain of course. Also I would like to mention that Ultrix has so many holes you could drain spaghetti with it, but I should mention it nonetheless. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 2 21:42: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-66.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B1337B42C for ; Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:42:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E77F0673A5; Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:42:05 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Garrett Wollman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: time_t definition is worng Message-ID: <20010602214205.A4905@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010602085237.A73968@dragon.nuxi.com> <20010603010518C.koya@pluto.math.yokohama-cu.ac.jp> <20010602091643.C73968@dragon.nuxi.com> <20010603012933K.koya@pluto.math.yokohama-cu.ac.jp> <200106030033.UAA57864@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="u3/rZRmxL6MmkK24" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200106030033.UAA57864@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu>; from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu on Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 08:33:08PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --u3/rZRmxL6MmkK24 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 08:33:08PM -0400, Garrett Wollman wrote: > 1) Determine whether time_t is integral, floating-point, or (new in > C99) complex. C99 includes support for complex numbers? Wow, how strange. Will C0x perhaps include support for the quaternions? :-) Kris --u3/rZRmxL6MmkK24 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7GcAdWry0BWjoQKURAob7AKC23MwbTPmI3WcxKXzY6Sf15ym7zwCg5ITC IIPtfIwCS2YgqjilRPYgoHg= =Yfpg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --u3/rZRmxL6MmkK24-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 2 22: 7:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (erie.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3324637B424 for ; Sat, 2 Jun 2001 22:07:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) id f5357jS89865 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 2 Jun 2001 22:07:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 22:07:35 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD people in Cambridge, UK Message-ID: <20010602220735.A89693@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, I going to be in the Cambridge UK area, Great Chesterford to be exact, for the next 2 weeks. Would anyone like to get together for drinks some night? Please reply via private email not this list. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message