From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 11 10:22:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CC6337B42F; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 10:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from there ([24.141.18.230]) by femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20011111182252.CYX10845.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@there>; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 10:22:52 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Paul Murphy To: John Baldwin , Jeremy Karlson Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 13:22:51 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.1] Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20011111182252.CYX10845.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On November 10, 2001 05:00 pm, John Baldwin wrote: > > - pleasant to use > > xfmail, but beware that it does have its share of bugs and you can make it > crash without trying to hard. :( In other words it's a BAD mail program :) -- "Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 11 16: 5:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C20E37B417; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:05:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fAC04uS44783; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:34:56 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20011111182252.CYX10845.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@there> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:34:54 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Paul Murphy Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jeremy Karlson , John Baldwin Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11-Nov-2001 Paul Murphy wrote: > > xfmail, but beware that it does have its share of bugs and you can make it > > crash without trying to hard. :( > > In other words it's a BAD mail program :) Well, the problem is that it has some very useful features, and it is simple to setup. For example, it handles multipe incoming folders, and gives you a sum of the total unread messages properly. It can also change From address on a per folder basis (but easily allow you to override that per email) which is great when you read more than one inbox (eg work/home). I have heard people claim great things about Mutt, but it seems to take a while to configure, and I haven't been bothered trying to configure it since xfmail isn't that bad :) (And mutt doesn't look nice out of the box) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 11 17:15:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F16F37B419 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 17:15:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.6/8.11.5) with SMTP id fAC1FIB18023; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 20:15:18 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 20:15:18 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Jeremy Karlson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There are no good e-mail programs. Every last one of them has serious problems. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Jeremy Karlson wrote: > Okay, I've just about had enough of Pine. Mozilla is too slow. Does > anyone have any suggestions on good mail readers? Requirements: > > - must support multiple mailboxes, both locally and remotely (via IMAP and > POP) > - must be easy to sort / maitain mailboxes > - would prefer an X program, but am willing to settle for an excellent > console app > - pleasant to use > > Thanks. > > -- > > Jeremy > > Fain would I climb, yet fear I to fall. > -- Sir Walter Raleigh > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 11 18:13:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from torpy.unbc.ca (torpy.unbc.ca [142.207.144.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D32037B416; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:13:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ugrad.unbc.ca (ugrad.unbc.ca [142.207.112.20]) by torpy.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA2599534; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:13:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (karlj000@localhost) by ugrad.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12378; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:11:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ugrad.unbc.ca: karlj000 owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:11:27 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Karlson To: Robert Watson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > There are no good e-mail programs. Every last one of them has serious > problems. I'm starting to think that I really agree with you. I've looked at quite a few (and have been doing this for quite a while), and have yet to find one that I like. I propose that we start a project to make a good e-mail program. (That's just what the world needs - another incomplete, buggy email client to add to the stack of thousands that exist already...) -- Jeremy Fain would I climb, yet fear I to fall. -- Sir Walter Raleigh To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 11 20:27:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BB24F37B417 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 20:27:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 63469 invoked by uid 100); 12 Nov 2001 04:27:44 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15343.20416.209466.373774@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 22:27:44 -0600 To: Robert Watson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Watson types: > There are no good e-mail programs. Every last one of them has serious > problems. That's a religious statement. I claim VM has no serious problems, so long as you're willing to convert to the emacs religion so you can use it. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 11 21: 0:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail39.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail39.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4303537B416 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 21:00:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail39.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20011112050023.IBAP11019.femail39.sdc1.sfba.home.com@atlanta.threespace.com> for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 21:00:23 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011111235656.01e3f268@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 00:00:12 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think this is part of the reason why I haven't switched to a "better" mailer in the past few years. It's hard to find that really sweet spot on the ease-of-use vs. flexibility-of-configuration. And by the time I've scaled the learning curve of filters and handling multiple addresses, I've started finding features in my old program that I miss. But if anybody starts a new e-mail client project, count me in on the usability testing. ;-) --Chip Morton At 09:11 PM 11/11/2001, you wrote: > > There are no good e-mail programs. Every last one of them has serious > > problems. > >I'm starting to think that I really agree with you. I've looked at quite >a few (and have been doing this for quite a while), and have yet to find >one that I like. > >I propose that we start a project to make a good e-mail program. (That's >just what the world needs - another incomplete, buggy email client to add >to the stack of thousands that exist already...) > >-- > >Jeremy > >Fain would I climb, yet fear I to fall. > -- Sir Walter Raleigh > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 11 21:39: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 423C637B405; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 21:38:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA11835; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 22:38:05 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011111163454.042359d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:52:05 -0700 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, Ted Mittelstaedt From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Anyone going to Comdex next week? Cc: Joey Garcia , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011110020404.A49530@mooseriver.com> References: <006e01c169cc$bd2a5ec0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20011109155543.G15209-100000@we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net> <006e01c169cc$bd2a5ec0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:04 AM 11/10/2001, Josef Grosch wrote: >Might be fun some other year if someone else was footing the tab, the price >of hotel rooms and everything else doubles for Comdex, Though it's nowhere as high as it was in the show's heyday. COMDEX peaked about 4-5 years ago and has been shrinking, making it more manageable. There are enough empty rooms that one can get a good deal. >but this year would >be no fun. The desperation is going to ubiquitous this year. It would have been even without the 9-11 disaster, but now that the show is searching everyone who enters and is not allowing bags onto the show floor, it will be quite inconvenient. Laptop bags are included in the ban, though not laptops themselves. (They were thinking of bananing laptops, but would have faced a mass rebellion of attendees AND exibitors if they'd gone through with it.) Interestingly, this just happens to be the year when Microsoft is promoting tablet PCs (which are much easier to carry without a case than laptops -- unless the laptop happens to be a Panasonic Toughbook, which has a handle.) Given that Microsoft is COMDEX's biggest tenant, I wonder if there is a connection here. I am not sure why the COMDEX organizers seem to believe that someone might bomb the convention.... It's unlikely that the terrorists would know or care what COMDEX is. And, of course, if a determined terrorist really did want to bomb COMDEX, he could easily lob a bomb at the Convention Center from the OUTSIDE and do plenty of damage. >Even microsoft >supplied hookers and whiskey will not brighten the mood. Too much of a >downer this year. I haven't heard of Microsoft providing hookers at COMDEX, but they did one year offer to marry people at their expense. Dr. Ruth Westheimer, who was promoting her book "Sex for Dummies," was at the event. >If I want to get that depressed and not spend the money >I'll sit at home and listen to the Joy Division. I'm going to be harrowing COMDEX hell this year (as I have every year since 1985).... Wish me luck. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 1:30:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0CB137B416; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 01:30:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fAC9TkT11664; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 01:29:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Brett Glass" , Cc: "Joey Garcia" , , Subject: RE: Anyone going to Comdex next week? Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 01:29:46 -0800 Message-ID: <009301c16b5c$91458460$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011111163454.042359d0@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Brett Glass >Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 3:52 PM >To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com; Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Joey Garcia; questions@FreeBSD.ORG; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Anyone going to Comdex next week? > > >At 03:04 AM 11/10/2001, Josef Grosch wrote: > >>Might be fun some other year if someone else was footing the tab, the price >>of hotel rooms and everything else doubles for Comdex, > >Though it's nowhere as high as it was in the show's heyday. COMDEX >peaked about 4-5 years ago and has been shrinking, making it more >manageable. There are enough empty rooms that one can get a good >deal. > Interesting you would say that. I think there's a serious point there. At one time the industry was totally dependent on advances coming from commercial software and hardware companies, if you had something new and cool then the badge of admission was showing it at Comdex. Today, the existing hardware is so good that there's not the drive to upgrade as soon as the new stuff is available, so that removes a lot of the reason of attending these trade shows for hardware people. And, also today, GNU and Free software is more and more important, and Windows and other commercial software is getting less important, and the new cool things in software aren't being introduced by people like Apple, Microsoft and IBM anymore. Instead they are being introduced by user communities around FreeBSD and Linux. It would be even more interesting to plot a graph of Comdex attendance and overlay it with a graph of Linuxworld (or whatever the big Linux tradeshow is) I wonder if there would be an inverse relationship there? Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 3: 9: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBC0137B419 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 03:08:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.6/8.11.5) with SMTP id fACB8jB24480; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 06:08:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 06:08:45 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs In-Reply-To: <15343.20416.209466.373774@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > Robert Watson types: > > There are no good e-mail programs. Every last one of them has serious > > problems. > > That's a religious statement. I claim VM has no serious problems, so > long as you're willing to convert to the emacs religion so you can use > it. Actually, it's derived from evidence that I failed to provide. :-) I suspect the problem is that I'm not sure what I want out of a mail client. For example: (1) I want it to be text-based so I can use it efficiently over a network connection, and easily using only a keyboard. (2) I want it to have integrated support for multi-media, easy access to attachments, and tight integration with the system file manager. I a clean mouse-driven GUI that can be used to sort mail into folders using a more visual paradigm. Likewise... (1) I want the power and flexibility of the UNIX-like mh and procmail tools, allowing integration with arbitrary tools, including the command-line PGP, shell scripts, arbitrary content handling, and automated mail handling at delivery-time, not when I read the e-mail. (2) I want my mail to be stored on a central mail server, transparent to the operating system and mail client I use, capable of supporting multiple client instances without locking conflicts or inconsistency, and with support for cached and disconnected operation. I want my mail client to be stateless and to be changeable like a lightbulb, not like an apartment. (1) I want my mail client to be flexible and confirable, adapting to my complex mail needs: the ability to auto-sort mailing lists, even when messages must be redundantly delivered to multiple folders; I want the ability to have individual "sending" profiles automatically when responding to mail in different folders, or pulled from different souces; I want the ability to have arbitrary highlighting of message contents, interest-based sorting, and other highly customized feature-sets. (2) I want my client to do the right thing out of the box, and to support simultaneously the "configuration file" format, and complete access to that format using easy-to-use text-driven or gui-driven interfaces. I do not believe in m4 configuration, I do not believe in configuration files that are hard to understand, counter-intuitive, and a seemingly endless exploration of inconsistent variable names, arbitrary hacks, and poor design. Oh, and.. (1) I want my mail client to be native to the operating system, operating smoothly, quickly, and in a manner supported by the vendor. (2) I want my mail client to be secure. It seems that I might fundamentally just want something that cannot exist, rather than wanting something that has been made but simply has not been found. The closest I've come to happiness so far is the Cyrus mail server, bundled with a combination of mail clients serving different needs. Pine for general mail reading, ckimail to quickly review folder contents for the command line, Netscape for threaded mail reading and HTML access, all over IMAP (preferably kerberized, but over SSL where that's not available). None of these clients is ideal: Netscape is slow, operates poorly using the keyboard, and (in my experience) doesn't support my mail sorting and organizing needs. Pine is buggy, has progressively more poor support for large mailboxes (60,000+ messages, shared mailboxes, nested mailboxes, ACLs), is known for being buggy, especially regarding C strings, and has poor integration with vital tools including PGP. ckimail is, well, ckimail. On the other hand, my intermittent explorations of the alternatives have also been disappointing. The much-lauded mutt has a configuration file from hell (or did, 12 months ago when I last tried it). With pine, a singly command line twiddle transparently causes it to use IMAP for all folder references: with mutt, I had to find dozens of configuration lines, read extensive man pages, and still I was finding it saving messages into local folders for various reasons. Mozilla consumed 500+mb of memory and swap attempting to read my mailing lists archives, and killed my X server. Emacs, as you point out, requires you to learn a new religion (and life-style), not to mention elisp. Oh, and just for breadth, Outlook wants you to pull down your mailing list index before it lets you select the use of SSL transport for IMAP. And many of the remaining tools fail on all the same counts: poor interface, high level of unreliability, religious belief they are the sole client in the universe and resulting irreversible transformations on mailbox data, inability to scale to multiple client access to to inability to handle locking, poor keyboard use, inability to configure without intimate knowledge of at least one additional programming language, and failure to to grasp even the most basic rules of consistent user interface design. Clearly, I cannot be satisfied by any real-world software, and I should be relegated to the pit of dispair, or possibly the list of people who write their own operating system, not necessarily because they can invent the better mousetrap, but because the only way they can find a system that meets their every need is to customize it to the point where it annoys everyone else. :-) I firmly believe no mail client can satisfy me, but I am eagerly awaiting the day that I am proven wrong, so that I can suddenly become an organized person with small mailboxes, who can find the message that they're looking for, and feel safe recommending the software to a friend. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 4:23: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF7AF37B419; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 04:23:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [194.78.144.27] ([194.78.144.27]) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fACCMop12555; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:22:50 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:22:27 +0100 To: Robert Watson , Mike Meyer From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:08 AM -0500 11/12/01, Robert Watson wrote: > (1) I want it to be text-based so I can use it efficiently over a network > connection, and easily using only a keyboard. I think mutt satisfies this requirement. > (2) I want it to have integrated support for multi-media, easy access to > attachments, and tight integration with the system file manager. I > a clean mouse-driven GUI that can be used to sort mail into folders > using a more visual paradigm. IMO, I haven't found a really good GUI MUA. The least bad I've found so far is Eudora, but no GUI MUA I know of also has a text mode, so if you want these two things in one program, I suspect that you are stuck. > (1) I want the power and flexibility of the UNIX-like mh and procmail > tools, allowing integration with arbitrary tools, including the > command-line PGP, shell scripts, arbitrary content handling, and > automated mail handling at delivery-time, not when I read the e-mail. Most text-mode MUAs should be more or less okay in this respect, depending on what mailbox format(s) they support, and what mailbox access method(s) they support. > (2) I want my mail to be stored on a central mail server, transparent to > the operating system and mail client I use, capable of supporting > multiple client instances without locking conflicts or inconsistency, > and with support for cached and disconnected operation. I want my > mail client to be stateless and to be changeable like a lightbulb, not > like an apartment. In which case, IMAP to a remote server would probably be a better fit than a local mailbox. In this case, you could use multiple different MUAs in different situations, so long as they were sufficiently compatible. > (1) I want my mail client to be flexible and confirable, adapting to my > complex mail needs: the ability to auto-sort mailing lists, even when > messages must be redundantly delivered to multiple folders; I want the > ability to have individual "sending" profiles automatically when > responding to mail in different folders, or pulled from different > souces; I want the ability to have arbitrary highlighting of message > contents, interest-based sorting, and other highly customized > feature-sets. Some of this can be done by mutt, or by using tools like procmail. However, I suspect that some of it just can't be done without writing your own program. > (2) I want my client to do the right thing out of the box, and to support > simultaneously the "configuration file" format, and complete > access to that format using easy-to-use text-driven or gui-driven > interfaces. I do not believe in m4 configuration, I do not believe in > configuration files that are hard to understand, counter-intuitive, > and a seemingly endless exploration of inconsistent variable names, > arbitrary hacks, and poor design. Again, here I think that mutt scores well. > (1) I want my mail client to be native to the operating system, operating > smoothly, quickly, and in a manner supported by the vendor. Don't see a problem here for mutt. > (2) I want my mail client to be secure. Mutt was originally written by Mike Elkins, the guy who also wrote the PGP/MIME RFC. It is still the "Premier PGP/MIME MUA". I really don't think that you get much better security than this. > It seems that I might fundamentally just want something that cannot exist, > rather than wanting something that has been made but simply has not been > found. Not in a single program, no. At least, not one that exists today. Of course, you could always write the be-all and end-all MUA tomorrow, and solve that problem for all the rest of us. ;-) > The closest I've come to happiness so far is the Cyrus mail > server, bundled with a combination of mail clients serving different > needs. Cyrus is a good small-scale IMAP server. It is easier to install than UW, is designed for maximum compatibility for users both local and remote to the server, and has a lot of other nice features. However, it does not scale well. If you care about scalability, you want to go with a "black box" mail server solution, and UW fits this scenario much better. > Pine is buggy, has progressively > more poor support for large mailboxes (60,000+ messages, shared mailboxes, > nested mailboxes, ACLs), is known for being buggy, especially regarding C > strings, and has poor integration with vital tools including PGP. ckimail > is, well, ckimail. IMO, mutt is better at handling large mailboxes than pine. However, mutt is never going to replace Netscape, and I hope that the folks who maintain it never even attempt to make it do so. If you need both a text mode and a GUI MUA, you really do need to use two separate programs, and I think that this is almost certainly always going to be the case. I'm not familiar with ckimail, so I can't speak for which side of the fence it should be one (or if you need to retain a third program). > I firmly believe no mail client can satisfy me, but I am eagerly awaiting > the day that I am proven wrong, so that I can suddenly become an organized > person with small mailboxes, who can find the message that they're looking > for, and feel safe recommending the software to a friend. There's a quote here that I think is very appropriate: "Remember, all software sucks. Some sucks more, and some sucks less." -- Ralf Hildebrandt IMO, mutt is one of those packages that tends to suck less. But, it won't walk the dog, empty the sink, clean the toilet, empty the cat litter box, or run in GUI mode. If you need something that can do all that and also run as a text-mode MUA, then I suggest that you need to write it yourself. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 4:40:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90EF337B416 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 04:40:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.6/8.11.5) with SMTP id fACCbbB25020; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 07:37:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 07:37:36 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Brad Knowles Cc: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > > (2) I want my mail client to be secure. > > Mutt was originally written by Mike Elkins, the guy who also > wrote the PGP/MIME RFC. It is still the "Premier PGP/MIME MUA". I > really don't think that you get much better security than this. I've never found the fact that gpg had a remotely exploitable buffer overflow, nor its various signature verification bugs, very reassuring. Perhaps things have improved since I last used it :-). > > The closest I've come to happiness so far is the Cyrus mail > > server, bundled with a combination of mail clients serving different > > needs. > > Cyrus is a good small-scale IMAP server. It is easier to > install than UW, is designed for maximum compatibility for users both > local and remote to the server, and has a lot of other nice features. > However, it does not scale well. If you care about scalability, you > want to go with a "black box" mail server solution, and UW fits this > scenario much better. I think you have this backwards; as someone who uses Cyrus, I can say that (a) it's not intended to be compatible with other mail server software, (b) it's not intended for local users, and (c) it scales quite well. I have around 9 gigabytes of mail stored on my cyrus server, with many mailboxes in the 100,000 message range, and have no problems--its use of seperate databases for index meta-data scales nicely, and its inode-intensive message model seems to work well for me also. Likewise, having used UW, I can say it is intended to be compatible, it is intended to support local users, and it scales extremely poorly. > I'm not familiar with ckimail, so I can't speak for which side > of the fence it should be one (or if you need to retain a third > program). ckimail is an IMAP tool to show new messages in mailboxes: it's a nice light-weight alternative to actually loading your MUA. It's vaguely reminiscent of the index tool from mh. > IMO, mutt is one of those packages that tends to suck less. > But, it won't walk the dog, empty the sink, clean the toilet, empty the > cat litter box, or run in GUI mode. If you need something that can do > all that and also run as a text-mode MUA, then I suggest that you need > to write it yourself. Yeah, no doubt :-). My real gripes with mutt as an alternative to pine were that (a) it had a very inconsistent user interface, and (b) its configuration system sucks, especially to make simple changes ("My mail is in IMAP today"). If those have been resolved, I should give it yet another try sometime. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 6:11:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tfcci.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A0037B416; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 06:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mail.tfcci.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA10348; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 09:11:42 -0500 Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by mail.tfcci.com via smap (V2.1/2.1c) id xma010330; Mon, 12 Nov 01 09:11:25 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 09:10:12 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Fuhrman X-X-Sender: To: Robert Watson Cc: Mike Meyer , Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Howdy, On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Robert Watson wrote: > > (1) I want the power and flexibility of the UNIX-like mh and procmail > tools, allowing integration with arbitrary tools, including the > command-line PGP, shell scripts, arbitrary content handling, and > automated mail handling at delivery-time, not when I read the e-mail. > There's a nice tool that I use called pgpenvelope which provides integration between pine and pgp/gpg. http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net > (2) I want my mail client to be secure. You just discounted every single Microsoft E-mail client out there ;) Generally, what I've found is that you have to piece together various tools to get the functionality you need. I use: 1) Pine for sending/reading 2) Fetchmail for grabbing 3) pgpenvelope for easy encryption/decryption 4) procmail for sorting/filtering/blocking Following my own advice, I test drove sylpheed and really liked it's threading capabilities. Wish pine did the same... Cheers! - -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: PGPEnvelope - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net iD8DBQE779hNtZTBgtmnGNERAkvlAJ91gL51GoTus+pJwpr0Nmd/wFZbmQCgkF+y p3XYKBuuSInMJwiwp4nH41A= =QNCO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 7:48:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A897837B445 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 07:48:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 27222 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2001 15:48:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 12 Nov 2001 15:48:03 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20011111182252.CYX10845.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@there> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 07:48:00 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Paul Murphy Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jeremy Karlson Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11-Nov-01 Paul Murphy wrote: > On November 10, 2001 05:00 pm, John Baldwin wrote: >> > - pleasant to use >> >> xfmail, but beware that it does have its share of bugs and you can make it >> crash without trying to hard. :( > > In other words it's a BAD mail program :) No, because it has better support for IMAP in X than anything else I've tried while still being able to do things such as different default e-mail addresses for replies in different folders, etc. It's not perfect, but I haven't found one that is. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 8:35:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27EF937B41A for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:34:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 35094 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2001 16:34:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 12 Nov 2001 16:34:50 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:34:50 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Mike Meyer Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12-Nov-01 Robert Watson wrote: > > On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > >> Robert Watson types: >> > There are no good e-mail programs. Every last one of them has serious >> > problems. >> >> That's a religious statement. I claim VM has no serious problems, so >> long as you're willing to convert to the emacs religion so you can use >> it. > > Actually, it's derived from evidence that I failed to provide. :-) > > I suspect the problem is that I'm not sure what I want out of a mail > client. For example: > > (1) I want it to be text-based so I can use it efficiently over a network > connection, and easily using only a keyboard. > > (2) I want it to have integrated support for multi-media, easy access to > attachments, and tight integration with the system file manager. I > a clean mouse-driven GUI that can be used to sort mail into folders > using a more visual paradigm. As otherwise mentioned, these are two different animals. For my text based reading, I just ssh into my mail server, do a 'ls -ltr' in the mail directory, and read the files newer than 'cyrus.seen' using 'less'. :) For X I use xfmail which has most of these things. It's only problem is that it is buggy. :( > Likewise... > > (1) I want the power and flexibility of the UNIX-like mh and procmail > tools, allowing integration with arbitrary tools, including the > command-line PGP, shell scripts, arbitrary content handling, and > automated mail handling at delivery-time, not when I read the e-mail. xfmail supports pgp and using helper apps for different mime types for attachments. It doesn't have completely arbitrary handling, but you can always use an external editor and use it to do other weird things with your e-mails as you compose them. Since you are using Cyrus, you should use a sieve script on the server to sort your incoming mail. :) XFmail does have filtering rules however for incoming mail, outgoing mail, and a set of special rules you can manually invoke. > (2) I want my mail to be stored on a central mail server, transparent to > the operating system and mail client I use, capable of supporting > multiple client instances without locking conflicts or inconsistency, > and with support for cached and disconnected operation. I want my > mail client to be stateless and to be changeable like a lightbulb, not > like an apartment. Agreed. I've used xfmail on many different workstations concurrently to read my mail. > (1) I want my mail client to be flexible and confirable, adapting to my > complex mail needs: the ability to auto-sort mailing lists, even when > messages must be redundantly delivered to multiple folders; I want the > ability to have individual "sending" profiles automatically when > responding to mail in different folders, or pulled from different > souces; I want the ability to have arbitrary highlighting of message > contents, interest-based sorting, and other highly customized > feature-sets. Oooo. The 'sending profiles' can be done in Mutt and XFmail, but they aren't really pretty yet. xfmail can do sorting of mailing lists, but I'm not sure how easy it is to change teh sorting on the fly. > (2) I want my client to do the right thing out of the box, and to support > simultaneously the "configuration file" format, and complete > access to that format using easy-to-use text-driven or gui-driven > interfaces. I do not believe in m4 configuration, I do not believe in > configuration files that are hard to understand, counter-intuitive, > and a seemingly endless exploration of inconsistent variable names, > arbitrary hacks, and poor design. xfmail does have this. The config file format is a simple name value pair text file, and you can edit all of it from the GUI fairly easily. > Oh, and.. > > (1) I want my mail client to be native to the operating system, operating > smoothly, quickly, and in a manner supported by the vendor. > > (2) I want my mail client to be secure. This one xfmail chokes on. I use a ssh tunnel to do imap (which works cause I can specify teh port for my imap connection). You could probably use ssltunnel or some such for SSL, but I haven't played with that. Xfmail itself doesn't support SSL. When reading new mails, xfmail will only pull down index entries for new mails into its folders, but if you select a folder, it will download the entire index which will probably be a pain for you. Also, you forgot to mention offline IMAP support. :) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 10:14: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D757E37B416 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 64BCB18EE; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BEA618ED for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:12:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:12:47 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hamell To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: How Microsoft invented Open Source Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/22749.html Luckily the author takes Bill's words with a grain (more like an entire block,) of salt... :) Rick ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://hw.shatteredcrystal.com ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 11:41:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 449A837B417; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:41:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id D0FB014C2E; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:41:42 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Robert Watson Cc: Jeremy Karlson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 12 Nov 2001 20:41:42 +0100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Watson writes: > There are no good e-mail programs. Every last one of them has serious > problems. All software sucks. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 11:55:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B1837B416; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:55:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [194.78.144.27] ([194.78.144.27]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fACJrvU21389; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:53:57 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:35:48 +0100 To: Robert Watson , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs Cc: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:37 AM -0500 11/12/01, Robert Watson wrote: > I've never found the fact that gpg had a remotely exploitable buffer > overflow, nor its various signature verification bugs, very reassuring. > Perhaps things have improved since I last used it :-). Bugs in GPG are not the fault of mutt. ;-) > I think you have this backwards; Hmm. You may be right. > My real gripes with mutt as an alternative to pine were that (a) it had a > very inconsistent user interface, Well, it's called "mutt" for a reason. It's a mongrel cross-breed of elm, pine, and presumably mh and all those other text-mode MUAs. This has both advantages and disadvantages. One advantage is that it is extremely highly configurable -- there are key mappings that allow you to retain virtually all the same keystrokes that you've already memorized with pine, elm, and presumably virtually all the other text-mode MUAs available -- Just pick your key-binding and go. > and (b) its configuration system sucks, > especially to make simple changes ("My mail is in IMAP today"). If those > have been resolved, I should give it yet another try sometime. I've never had any configuration problems with mutt, but then I had gotten extremely comfortable with it many years ago. Then I lost my desktop Unix box (I left that job), and in all the jobs I've had since then I've managed to have my mail available to me on my Mac (now my PowerBook G3/Pismo). Anyway, now that I'm trying to get moved over to MacOS X 10.1, maybe I can finally go back to mutt after all these years. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 12:41:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reiters.org (reiters.org [64.40.73.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C809837B416 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:41:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by reiters.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id AFCAAD634; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:41:27 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:41:27 -0600 From: Dennis Reiter To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs Message-ID: <20011112144127.H87751@reiters.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.2i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 08:41:42PM +0100 X-Uptime: 2:33PM up 58 days, 22:53, 11 users, load averages: 1.03, 0.94, 0.84 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoting Dag-Erling Smorgrav (des@ofug.org): > Robert Watson writes: > > There are no good e-mail programs. Every last one of them has serious > > problems. > > All software sucks. > Hence the Mutt slogan: "All mail clients suck. This one just sucks less." -- Denny Reiter denny@reiters.org So I don't hurt your feelings: happydenny@reiters.org www.scapegoats.org "An object at rest cannot be stopped!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 14:29:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A75EE37B418; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:29:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.136.188.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.136.188] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 163PZX-0000WN-00; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:28:55 -0800 Message-ID: <3BF04D57.3D67D78C@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:29:43 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Brett Glass , jgrosch@mooseriver.com, Joey Garcia , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone going to Comdex next week? References: <009301c16b5c$91458460$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Today, the existing hardware is so good that there's not the drive to > upgrade as soon as the new stuff is available, so that removes a lot of > the reason of attending these trade shows for hardware people. I think this is false. There have always been two tiers of technology: heroic and mortal. It's only interesting when something slips from the former category to the latter. Right now, for example, there is a lot of hardware that I would put in the "heroic" category. Processors that need incredible cooling technology, etc.. And then there's the other end of the spectrum, where ther are no moving parts. Plotting on other scales works for this, as well: many of the "cool" technologies aren't useful, until you can deal with the battery life issue: they don't -- they can't -- become everyday objects until it's possible to integrate them into your life without heroic effort (ask yourself: why isn't every desktop computer a laptop? Why hasn't laptop technology totally displaced desktop technology?). So there is huge room for improvement in hardware technology still, and I'd certainly pay to go see someone doing it, only no one seems to be doing it these days. > And, also today, GNU and Free software is more and more important, and > Windows and other commercial software is getting less important, and > the new cool things in software aren't being introduced by people like > Apple, Microsoft and IBM anymore. Instead they are being introduced by > user communities around FreeBSD and Linux. I really think this is wrong. It's a nice bit of hedonism, but the cool things aren't happening in user communities; for the most part, they are still happening in industry and in the academic sector. There's just less money to pursue things deemed "impractical" these days: people are increasingly focussed on short term goals. There is less margin for having the ability to pursue long term visions and carry them into reality. > It would be even more interesting to plot a graph of Comdex attendance and > overlay it with a graph of Linuxworld (or whatever the big Linux tradeshow > is) I wonder if there would be an inverse relationship there? I can telly you have your tongue in your cheek here, but for those people who might not get that, let's make sure they see it being put there... There is not a direct inverse relationship. You have to realize that what attendence at these shows measures is on different, almost orthogonal, axis from each other. The user group pushed shows have a high "geek factor"; I include Usenix, and any other nominally legitimate academic organization that has had to add a "freenix" or similar set of tracks to keep the attendance up by pandering to "geekdom". I could also plot the stock market vs. LinuxWorld attendance; that would naeievely lead me to believe that the economy is going to hell because of the inverse relationship there, and that therefore banning such shows would be a good thing. We both know this isn't true. THe fallacy in implying inverse relationships is that it implies that we are playing a zero sum, not a positive sum, game; that thinking is incredibly limiting for anyone caught up in it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 15: 1:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from raven.mail.pas.earthlink.net (raven.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 493A137B416; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:01:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.136.188.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.136.188] helo=mindspring.com) by raven.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 163Q4y-0006rM-00; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:01:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3BF054F1.582748FF@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:02:09 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: Paul Murphy , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jeremy Karlson Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin wrote: > >> > - pleasant to use > >> > >> xfmail, but beware that it does have its share of bugs and you can make it > >> crash without trying to hard. :( > > > > In other words it's a BAD mail program :) > > No, because it has better support for IMAP in X than anything else I've tried > while still being able to do things such as different default e-mail > addresses for replies in different folders, etc. It's not perfect, but > I haven't found one that is. There is a commercial one that was written by some of the folks from the Cyrus project, which is very good, but does not support FreeBSD. There are also all of the clients listed at: http://www.imap.org/products/showall.php This list is up to date as of 21 Sept 2001. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 16:39:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71FA737B417; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 16:39:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fAD0dIS63527; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 11:09:18 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3BF054F1.582748FF@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 11:09:18 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs Cc: Jeremy Karlson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Paul Murphy , John Baldwin Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12-Nov-2001 Terry Lambert wrote: > There is a commercial one that was written by some of the folks > from the Cyrus project, which is very good, but does not support > FreeBSD. Mulberry? I had a go but it behaves too much like a mac application :) ie it is multi-paned which sucks for me because my window manage doesn't tie the windows of an application together when minimising. Apparently they are working on a paned mode for the next version. (I tried the linux binary) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 17: 1:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E181937B416 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 17:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fAD11Qv10756; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:01:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:01:59 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: Adam Laurie Cc: "Martin J. Muench" , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Free or Commercial crypto filesystem? In-Reply-To: <3BF00B66.11A3F4AF@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <20011112195856.Q43503-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Adam Laurie wrote: > Francisco Reyes wrote: > > > > On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Martin J. Muench wrote: > > > > > > Any currently working crypto filesystem for FreeBSD? > > > CFS (Cryptographic File System): /usr/ports/security/cfs > > > > I looked at cfs and it doesn't seem like any work is been done on it. > > meaning what? since it already works, what work would you like done on > it? I will probably take a look at it this weekedn. What I meant by "no recent work" is just my believe that progams that are commonly not been maintained may be because there may not be commonly been used. And if it is not been used. This leads me to ask myself why isn't it been used? That whas my reasoning. Befor investing time on something I just try to see if others have any feedback on the program. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 17: 7:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web20201.mail.yahoo.com (web20201.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 552EA37B42B for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 17:07:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011113010657.25624.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [212.16.200.210] by web20201.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 17:06:57 PST Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 17:06:57 -0800 (PST) From: GoodNews To: robert@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Äîðîãîé äðóã! Èçâèíè, ÷òî îòáèðàþ òâîå âðåìÿ íà ÷òåíèå äàííîãî ïîñëàíèÿ,òàê êàê ìû âñå óñòàëè îò áåñêîíå÷íûõ ðåêëàìíûõ ðàññûëîê è âñÿ÷åñêîãî ìóñîðà,íî ÿ íàäåþñü, ÷òî íåñêîëüêî ìèíóò çàòðà÷åííîãî âðåìåíè ñìîãóò îêóïèòüñÿ, åñëè òû ðåøèøüñÿ èçìåíèòü ñâîé âçãëÿä íà îêðóæàþùóþ òåáÿ äåéñòâèòåëüíîñòü. Ïðåäëàãàåòñÿ â êîðíå èçìåíèòü ñâîþ æèçíü! È äëÿ ýòîãî ïðåäíàçíà÷åíà ïðîãðàììà, ðåàëüíî äåéñòâóþùàÿ, ñ ðåàëüíûìè âîçìîæíîñòÿìè çàðàáîòàòü äåíüãè, çàòðàòèâ íà ýòî íå î÷åíü áîëüøèå óñèëèÿ. Ýòîò ìåòîä çàðàáîòêà äåíåã íà ñàìîì äåëå ÄÅÉÑÒÂÓÅÒ ÍÀ 100%, ÊÎÃÄÀ ÓÃÎÄÍÎ, ÃÄÅ ÓÃÎÄÍÎ. Âû ñìîæåòå çàðàáîòàòü áîëåå 1.000.000 ðóáëåé â ïîñëåäóþùèå 90 äíåé. Ýòî íå öåïíîå ïèñüìî, à îòëè÷íàÿ ëåãàëüíàÿ âîçìîæíîñòü çàðàáîòàòü äåíüãè. Íå ïîæàëåéòå âðåìåíè, îçíàêîìüòåñü ñ ïðåäëàãàåìîé ïðîãðàììîé, è óñïåõ è áëàãîïîëó÷èå ïîñåòÿò Âàø äîì! Äàííîå ïèñüìî ïðèäåò ê Âàì íà ýòîò àäðåñ îäèí åäèíñòâåííûé ðàç, áîëüøå ÿ Âàñ íå ïîáåñïîêîþ. Íî åñëè ó Âàñ èìåþòñÿ è äðóãèå àäðåñà, íå îáèæàéòåñü, åñëè ýòî ïîñëàíèå ïðèäåò è íà íèõ,ïðîãðàììà íå ìîæåò îòñëåäèòü õîçÿèíà ÿùèêà, òîëüêî ôàêò ñóùåñòâîâàíèÿ àäðåñà. Åñëè Âàñ ýòî çàèíòåðåñîâàëî è Âû æåëàåòå áîëüøå óçíàòü î ðàáîòå ïðåäëàãàåìîé ïðîãðàììû, Âû ìîæåòå îòïðàâèòü äàííîå ñîîáùåíèå îáðàòíî ñ ïîìåòêîé "More", ÷òî áû ÿ âûñëàëà Âàì ïîäðîáíîå îïèñàíèå ðàáîòû ñèñòåìû ïî Âàøåìó æåëàíèþ, à íå çàíèìàòü Âàøå âðåìÿ è íå òðàòèòü Âàøè äåíüãè íà ïîëó÷åíèå âëîæåííîãî äîêóìåíòà. Âîçâðàùåííûå áåç äàííîé ïîìåòêè ïèñüìà áóäóò, êàê Âû ïðàâèëüíî äîãàäûâàåòåñü, óäàëÿòñÿ áåç ïðî÷òåíèÿ. Íî åñëè Âû õîòèòå ïîðóãàòüñÿ è âûïóñòèòü ïàð, òî ïîæàëóéñòà :-) Íàäåþñü, Âàì ñòàíåò ëåã÷å :-) Åùå ðàç èçâèíèòå, ÷òî îòíèìàþ Âàøå âðåìÿ. Óñïåõîâ âàì è âñÿ÷åñêèõ áëàã! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 18:37:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54DCC37B419; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 18:37:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.247.141.234.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.247.141.234] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 163TRX-0005su-00; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 18:36:55 -0800 Message-ID: <3BF08777.96ED2773@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 18:37:43 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel O'Connor Cc: Jeremy Karlson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Paul Murphy , John Baldwin Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > There is a commercial one that was written by some of the folks > > from the Cyrus project, which is very good, but does not support > > FreeBSD. > > Mulberry? Yes, that's the one. > I had a go but it behaves too much like a mac application :) > ie it is multi-paned which sucks for me because my window manage doesn't tie > the windows of an application together when minimising. > > Apparently they are working on a paned mode for the next version. > > (I tried the linux binary) I guess DES is right: all software sucks. :-p. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 19:18:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0129B37B417 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 19:18:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 1617 invoked by uid 100); 13 Nov 2001 03:18:07 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15344.37103.718484.462052@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 21:18:07 -0600 To: Robert Watson Cc: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs In-Reply-To: References: <15343.20416.209466.373774@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Watson types: > On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > Robert Watson types: > > > There are no good e-mail programs. Every last one of them has serious > > > problems. > > That's a religious statement. I claim VM has no serious problems, so > > long as you're willing to convert to the emacs religion so you can use > > it. > > Actually, it's derived from evidence that I failed to provide. :-) > > I suspect the problem is that I'm not sure what I want out of a mail > client. For example: > > (1) I want it to be text-based so I can use it efficiently over a network > connection, and easily using only a keyboard. Got that. > (2) I want it to have integrated support for multi-media, easy access to > attachments, and tight integration with the system file manager. I > a clean mouse-driven GUI that can be used to sort mail into folders > using a more visual paradigm. Got that. > Likewise... > > (1) I want the power and flexibility of the UNIX-like mh and procmail > tools, allowing integration with arbitrary tools, including the > command-line PGP, shell scripts, arbitrary content handling, and > automated mail handling at delivery-time, not when I read the e-mail. Got that. > (2) I want my mail to be stored on a central mail server, transparent to > the operating system and mail client I use, capable of supporting > multiple client instances without locking conflicts or inconsistency, > and with support for cached and disconnected operation. I want my > mail client to be stateless and to be changeable like a lightbulb, not > like an apartment. Got that. > (1) I want my mail client to be flexible and confirable, adapting to my > complex mail needs: the ability to auto-sort mailing lists, even when > messages must be redundantly delivered to multiple folders; I want the > ability to have individual "sending" profiles automatically when > responding to mail in different folders, or pulled from different > souces; I want the ability to have arbitrary highlighting of message > contents, interest-based sorting, and other highly customized > feature-sets. Got that. > (2) I want my client to do the right thing out of the box, and to support > simultaneously the "configuration file" format, and complete > access to that format using easy-to-use text-driven or gui-driven > interfaces. I do not believe in m4 configuration, I do not believe in > configuration files that are hard to understand, counter-intuitive, > and a seemingly endless exploration of inconsistent variable names, > arbitrary hacks, and poor design. Got that. > Oh, and.. > > (1) I want my mail client to be native to the operating system, operating > smoothly, quickly, and in a manner supported by the vendor. Got that. > (2) I want my mail client to be secure. Got that. There are, of course, some caveats - mostly because I haven't explored the full power of VM. For instance, if you store your mail on a central server, you almost certainly give up the power to use all the Unix-like tools on it, depending on the server in question. Using other mail clients on the central server will depend on the server, not VM, though VM covers up for that quite a bit by allowing you to access a single instance of VM from different places and different operating platforms makes up for quite a bit. I consider "installs from ports" to qualify with that last #1. > Emacs, as you point out, requires you to learn a new religion (and > life-style), not to mention elisp. The latter two are part of the religion :-) > Clearly, I cannot be satisfied by any real-world software, and I should be > relegated to the pit of dispair, or possibly the list of people who write > their own operating system, not necessarily because they can invent the > better mousetrap, but because the only way they can find a system that > meets their every need is to customize it to the point where it annoys > everyone else. :-) There's nothing wrong with wanting to use the cc configuration tool! > I firmly believe no mail client can satisfy me, but I am eagerly awaiting > the day that I am proven wrong, so that I can suddenly become an organized > person with small mailboxes, who can find the message that they're looking > for, and feel safe recommending the software to a friend. Ah - finding the message you're looking for - that's a different story. I recommend WAIS for that. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 22:49:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4CFD37B41A; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 22:49:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id AAA44363999 Tue, 13 Nov 2001 00:48:08 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA69618; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 22:49:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 22:49:43 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Terry Lambert Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , Brett Glass , jgrosch@mooseriver.com, Joey Garcia , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone going to Comdex next week? Message-ID: <20011112224943.K69342@darkstar.gte.net> References: <009301c16b5c$91458460$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3BF04D57.3D67D78C@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <3BF04D57.3D67D78C@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 02:29:43PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 02:29:43PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > Today, the existing hardware is so good that there's not the drive to > > upgrade as soon as the new stuff is available, so that removes a lot of > > the reason of attending these trade shows for hardware people. > > I think this is false. There have always been two tiers of > technology: heroic and mortal. It's only interesting when > something slips from the former category to the latter. > > Right now, for example, there is a lot of hardware that I > would put in the "heroic" category. Processors that need > incredible cooling technology, etc.. And then there's the > other end of the spectrum, where ther are no moving parts. > > Plotting on other scales works for this, as well: many of > the "cool" technologies aren't useful, until you can deal > with the battery life issue: they don't -- they can't -- > become everyday objects until it's possible to integrate > them into your life without heroic effort (ask yourself: > why isn't every desktop computer a laptop? Why hasn't > laptop technology totally displaced desktop technology?). Why isn't anyone making a 300$ laptop? Why do the really nice laptops always cost 2500$? With memory getting so cheap, why aren't we seeing a computer-in-an-flatscreen with gigabit over fibre to the backend? No moving parts, etc. While we're at it, make them edge mateable, and put a GPU and CPU in each. > > So there is huge room for improvement in hardware technology > still, and I'd certainly pay to go see someone doing it, > only no one seems to be doing it these days. > > > > And, also today, GNU and Free software is more and more important, and > > Windows and other commercial software is getting less important, and > > the new cool things in software aren't being introduced by people like > > Apple, Microsoft and IBM anymore. Instead they are being introduced by > > user communities around FreeBSD and Linux. > > I really think this is wrong. It's a nice bit of hedonism, > but the cool things aren't happening in user communities; for > the most part, they are still happening in industry and in the > academic sector. There's just less money to pursue things > deemed "impractical" these days: people are increasingly > focussed on short term goals. There is less margin for having > the ability to pursue long term visions and carry them into > reality. > Hardware is evolving faster than open source can keep up with. There isn't any progress in getting hardware makers to get docs to the community faster. 3d game tech is not passing into the open source community fast enough, etc. > > > It would be even more interesting to plot a graph of Comdex attendance and > > overlay it with a graph of Linuxworld (or whatever the big Linux tradeshow > > is) I wonder if there would be an inverse relationship there? > > I can telly you have your tongue in your cheek here, but for > those people who might not get that, let's make sure they see > it being put there... > > There is not a direct inverse relationship. You have to realize > that what attendence at these shows measures is on different, > almost orthogonal, axis from each other. The user group pushed > shows have a high "geek factor"; I include Usenix, and any other > nominally legitimate academic organization that has had to add > a "freenix" or similar set of tracks to keep the attendance up > by pandering to "geekdom". The market matures from avid homebrewer, to small systems proponent, to ooh-look-its-got-a-GUI, to "I can't do anything without Windows", to "nothing is a serious competitor to MS", to look how powerful this Unix-like thing is, to "I just don't care anymore, and MS is what they run at work.". How long before people get disillusioned, and the renaissance is over? > > I could also plot the stock market vs. LinuxWorld attendance; > that would naeievely lead me to believe that the economy is > going to hell because of the inverse relationship there, and > that therefore banning such shows would be a good thing. We > both know this isn't true. > Will MS ever bee in a bad enough situation that they are a lower state of energy than Linux? If they get into this state, won't a big part of the reason to stay with Linux dissapear? > THe fallacy in implying inverse relationships is that it > implies that we are playing a zero sum, not a positive sum, game; > that thinking is incredibly limiting for anyone caught up in it. > How much drag can MS introduce into the world before the Universe contracts? > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 12 23:11:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B19DD37B418; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 23:11:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA25341; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 00:09:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011112164807.0558bdd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 17:02:08 -0700 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Anyone going to Comdex next week? Cc: "Joey Garcia" , , In-Reply-To: <009301c16b5c$91458460$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011111163454.042359d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:29 AM 11/12/2001, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >Interesting you would say that. I think there's a serious point >there. At one time the industry was totally dependent on advances coming >from commercial software and hardware companies, if you had something new >and cool then the badge of admission was showing it at Comdex. It still is. Most open source is not innovative but rather copies -- and follows the trail blazed by -- commercial software. Now and then we see an innovation that's made open source from the get-go, but it is rare. Innovating is expensive, and people need (and deserve) to be rewarded for it. It would actually be very bad for the industry if innovations started as open source, since this would preclude funding for them. >Today, the existing hardware is so good that there's not the drive to >upgrade as soon as the new stuff is available, so that removes a lot of >the reason of attending these trade shows for hardware people. It's not that the hardware is "good;" it's that it is no longer the bottleneck. The big bottlenecks these days are Internet throughput and latency. >And, also today, GNU and Free software is more and more important, GNU, and the FSF's "Free" software (with a capital "F"), are destructive forces. They virtually never innovate. The purpose of the FSF is to prey on the industry by creating no-cost knockoffs of commercial products, preventing hard-working people from being justly rewarded for what they do. The BSDs do not share this destructive attitude. They give back. >and Windows and other commercial software is getting less important, Windows is still EXCEEDINGLY important (not that I like it, by the way). And other commercial software -- even more than Windows -- is vital. It's a tragedy that the FSF has had success in convincing companies to adopt utterly infeasible business plans centered around its business-destroying license. Then, when the companies inevitably fail, the FSF uses the license to scavenge the corpes, like hyenas, for code to appropriate into its hoard of software. >and the new cool things in software aren't being introduced by people like >Apple, Microsoft and IBM anymore. Instead they are being introduced by >user communities around FreeBSD and Linux. I strongly disagree. Again, most innovations in software do come from commercial software companies. FreeBSD and Linux are doing some minor innovation, but mostly they are refining what already exists. >It would be even more interesting to plot a graph of Comdex attendance and >overlay it with a graph of Linuxworld (or whatever the big Linux tradeshow is) >I wonder if there would be an inverse relationship there? No. LinuxWorld was hurt by the downturn in the market as well as the inevitable failure of companies foolish enough to base their businesses on GPLed code. Percentagewise, it had probably shrunk more than COMDEX before the 9-11 disaster (which has hurt COMDEX due to its proximity to the event). --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 13 5:49:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shiva.jussieu.fr (shiva.jussieu.fr [134.157.0.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A49237B417 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 05:49:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr [134.157.10.1]) by shiva.jussieu.fr (8.12.1/jtpda-5.4) with ESMTP id fADDnKm3078190 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 14:49:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from niobe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (0m885p0a95jl1shs@niobe.lpthe.jussieu.fr [134.157.10.41]) by parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (8.11.1/jtpda-5.3.1) with ESMTP id fADDnJ316449 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 14:49:19 +0100 (MET) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by niobe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (8.11.6/8.11.3) with UUCP id fADDnJH97256 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 14:49:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from michel@rose.lpthe.jussieu.fr) Received: (from michel@localhost) by rose.lpthe.jussieu.fr (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fADDnD601642 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 14:49:13 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from michel) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 14:49:13 +0100 From: Michel Talon To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs Message-ID: <20011113144913.A1626@lpthe.jussieu.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Watson said: > It seems that I might fundamentally just want something that cannot exist, > rather than wanting something that has been made but simply has not been > found. You should take a look at mahogany. While it is at present quite buggy particularly under FreeBSD, it has a lot if not all the features you want. The next released version should be more satisfactory. I have shown a number of bugs occurring under FreeBSD to a developer and he has already patched quite a few. The problem is that he uses daily his program under Linux and had not noted them. -- Michel Talon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 13 16:23: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from urdvg135.cms.usa.net (urdvg135.cms.usa.net [204.68.25.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 27B7437B416 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:23:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 28671 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2001 00:30:32 -0000 Received: from cpdvg201.cms.usa.net (165.212.10.5) by outbound.postoffice.net with SMTP; 14 Nov 2001 00:30:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 12505 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Nov 2001 00:22:21 -0000 Message-ID: <20011114002221.12503.qmail@cpdvg201.cms.usa.net> Received: from 165.212.10.5 by mx06 for [165.212.15.106] via web-mailer(34FM.0700.21.01) on Wed Nov 14 00:22:21 GMT 2001 Date: 13 Nov 2001 17:22:21 MST From: J S To: Rick Hamell , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [How Microsoft invented Open Source] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (34FM.0700.21.01) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rick Hamell wrote: > = > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/22749.html > = > Luckily the author takes Bill's words with a grain (more like an > entire block,) of salt... :) > = > Rick > = > ******************************************************************* > Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd > Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://hw.shatteredcrystal.com > ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org > = if al gore is the father of the internet, then surely microsoft can invent open source....and i think i saw some pigs flying on my way to work today. = joshua Joshua Smith, CCNA Data Center Technian USA.NET "Walk with me through the Universe, And along the way see how all of us are Connected. Feast the eyes of your Soul, On the Love that abounds. In all places at once, seemingly endless, Like your own existence." - Stephen Hawking - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 13 16:38: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C62C37B405 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:38:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 51042 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2001 00:38:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 14 Nov 2001 00:38:04 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20011114002322.B94326@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:38:04 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mea Culpa on C++ and ISO Sockets Cc: "PSI, Mike Smith" , Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-Nov-01 Nik Clayton wrote: > [ Note reply-to ] > > On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 12:45:20PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: >> > All I want to know is if anyone else has had problems using C++ (in >> > general) crashing the kernel during subsequent "initialization" of the >> > same program or specifically with AF_ISO family (-liso) sockets. Nothing >> > more than that. >> >> I suspect that the ISO socket code is woefully under-tested, and may >> in fact demonstrate never-really-worked-the-first-time syndrome. >> >> > Mike Smith (again, not THE Mike Smith) >> >> You're no more or less "Mike Smith" than I am, dude. 8) > > In some sense I suspect that we all, in fact, may be Mike Smith. > > Nik "Mike Smith" Clayton I prefer multithreaded versions myself. -- John "Mike Smith" Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 13 17:42:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5525737B416 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 17:42:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id BC94414C2E; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 02:42:35 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: J S Cc: Rick Hamell , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [How Microsoft invented Open Source] References: <20011114002221.12503.qmail@cpdvg201.cms.usa.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Nov 2001 02:42:35 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20011114002221.12503.qmail@cpdvg201.cms.usa.net> Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org J S writes: > if al gore is the father of the internet, then surely microsoft can > invent open source....and i think i saw some pigs flying on my way to > work today. So Luftschweinsa finally got off the ground? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 13 20: 4:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0323537B41B for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 20:04:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (sydney.worldwide.lemis.com [192.109.197.89]) by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF15786E3 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:34:15 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.6/8.9.3) id fADAQ2w34437; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:26:02 +0800 (SGT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:26:02 +0000 From: Greg Lehey To: Bill Moran Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for opinions: what is spam Message-ID: <20011113102601.H34244@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <3BE81422.7080304@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BE81422.7080304@potentialtech.com>; from wmoran@potentialtech.com on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:47:30AM -0500 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 6 November 2001 at 11:47:30 -0500, Bill Moran wrote: (sorry, I've been travelling, and haven't had time to look at this before). > I've been having a tough couple of months and I just had some > things happen today that are causing me to re-evaluate some of > my beliefs. > > One thing, central to this, is where do you draw the line > between promotion and spam? > > I'll give the example that really got me thinking: > > Got an email today through the "moreinfo@" address for my > company, which is listed on the web site on the contact > page. The email stated that "I got your email from a > list server". > Now, technically this is a lie, because the "moreinfo@" address > is _never_ used to _send_ mail, so it would never appear on > any list server. That depends on whether the mail sender got the name from a From: line, or whether he found it in the body of some other message, as you go on to say. A priori I'd say this could be correct. > I can see what _might_ have been done, however. Notice my > sig below. Now, that'll be on list servers for any list I post > to and this guy may have stopped by the web site, checked out > the contact page for the address, and sent me the mail. > > So my first question is: "Is this spam?" You haven't said what the message was. If I get the intention correctly, your moreinfo@ address is for asking questions. If this was a (even marginally relevant) question, then it was a valid use of the address. If it was advertising of any kind, then it probably wasn't. If it was sent indiscriminately to a large list, it's spam. Note that this doesn't have very much to do with where they got the address from. > An example is that I recently posted to the jobs@freebsd.com list an > announcement about my company and that we're seeking new customers. > To me, that's what that particular list is for. I would never have > posted such an announcement to questions@ or any other FreeBSD list. > I received one complaint that it was an inapprorpiate posting, and > while I don't know how many people subscribe to that list, I'm > assuming that that's a pretty low percentage that I offended. Given the amount of completely untargetted spam around, I think that "even marginally relevant" is a reasonable criterion. I didn't see the message, but if it's offering some kind of service, I can't see any reason to distinguish between employment and other ways of offering this service. Certainly people looking for the service would have less interest in the distinction. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 13 21:36:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from holly.dyndns.org (adsl-208-191-149-232.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [208.191.149.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 621B637B416; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.11.6/8.9.3) id fAE5ZPA64635; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 23:35:25 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from chris) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 23:35:24 -0600 From: Chris Costello To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: nik@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mea Culpa on C++ and ISO Sockets Message-ID: <20011113233524.C51056@holly.calldei.com> Reply-To: chris@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200111132045.fADKjKx03019@mass.dis.org> <20011114002322.B94326@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011114002322.B94326@clan.nothing-going-on.org>; from nik@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 12:23:22AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, November 14, 2001, Nik Clayton wrote: > In some sense I suspect that we all, in fact, may be Mike Smith. Cogito ergo Smith. -- Mike "Chris Costello" Smith chris@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 13 22:59: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E3EE37B416; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:58:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fAE6wJT17842; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:58:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Brett Glass" , Cc: "Joey Garcia" , , Subject: RE: Anyone going to Comdex next week? Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:58:18 -0800 Message-ID: <003c01c16cd9$bd2e0f60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011112164807.0558bdd0@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Brett Glass >Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 4:02 PM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt; jgrosch@mooseriver.com >Cc: Joey Garcia; questions@FreeBSD.ORG; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: RE: Anyone going to Comdex next week? > > >At 02:29 AM 11/12/2001, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >>Interesting you would say that. I think there's a serious point >>there. At one time the industry was totally dependent on advances coming >>from commercial software and hardware companies, if you had something new >>and cool then the badge of admission was showing it at Comdex. > >It still is. Most open source is not innovative but rather copies -- and >follows the trail blazed by -- commercial software. Brett, Brett, Brett. I know your just trying to stir up trouble here. Sigh. It is true that very specialized software industries, such as very large databases, specialist software like tax software, and the like, that there is little to no Open Source, thus innovation in those software industries can only come from commercial software. The same is true for office desktop productivity software like spreadsheets, wordprocessors, etc. I would argue, though, that there is little innovation in those software industries at the current time. (except in designing new ways to get even more money for the same old stuff) But most open source software has superior implementations that are later copied by commercial software. For example, all the anti-relaying anti-spamming stuff came out in Open Source long before commercial mailservers started to pick up on it. >Now and then we see >an innovation that's made open source from the get-go, but it is rare. >Innovating is expensive, no. Innovating is cheap. Forcing those innovations down the consumer's throats is where the expense is. and people need (and deserve) to be rewarded >for it. It would actually be very bad for the industry if innovations >started as open source, since this would preclude funding for them. > Not true in fact it helps immensely because software patenting is still very difficult and is broken all the time. (see Look and Feel lawsuit between Apple and the world) The software industry is full of commercial software that copies ideas implemented in other software, both commercial and open source. When new ideas are implemented in open source the commercial companies can see which ones are successfully forced down the consumer's throat without a lot of wasted money and time on their part on dead-end software ideas. The commercial software industry has successfully argued that their stuff is "better" than Open Source simply because it a) costs money and b) is implemented on Windows and c) supposedly is supported because of a. They get money for that, not for technical prowess. > >GNU, and the FSF's "Free" software (with a capital "F"), are destructive >forces. They virtually never innovate. The purpose of the FSF is to prey >on the industry by creating no-cost knockoffs of commercial products, >preventing hard-working people from being justly rewarded for what they >do. The BSDs do not share this destructive attitude. They give back. > I don't know that GNU software developers are known for filing software patents on the ideas of their software. If a GNU piece of software is good enough to make the market get interested, the commercial houses can simply write a competing implementation from scratch. They would have to do that anyway if the GNU stuff didn't exist. I think that FSF is a lot worse for the Free software market than for the commercial software market. To restate you, I'd say: "..The purpose of the FSF is to prey on the Free Software industry by creating no-cost knockoffs of Free products..." > >Windows is still EXCEEDINGLY important (not that I like it, by the >way). So is Vomit Making System (VMS) and MVS and whatever passes for IBM's proprietary mainframe OS, and Novell Netware. Old software dinosaus take a long time to fade away. But I think that if Linux and FreeBSD didn't exist, Windows would be much more important than it is now. Sure they are still growing but at a lesser rate, and all of us are growing too. >And other commercial software -- even more than Windows -- is >vital. It's a tragedy that the FSF has had success in convincing >companies to adopt utterly infeasible business plans centered around >its business-destroying license. Then, when the companies inevitably >fail, the FSF uses the license to scavenge the corpes, like hyenas, >for code to appropriate into its hoard of software. > >>and the new cool things in software aren't being introduced by people like >>Apple, Microsoft and IBM anymore. Instead they are being introduced by >>user communities around FreeBSD and Linux. > >I strongly disagree. Again, most innovations in software do come from >commercial software companies. FreeBSD and Linux are doing some minor >innovation, but mostly they are refining what already exists. > Network Address Translation came years earlier in BSD than even in Cisco IOS and Microsoft trailed Cisco as a matter of fact. If there's a single technology that has been more critical to the growth of the Internet (or destructive to IPv6 plans) over the last 3 years I don't know what it is. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 13 23:28:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF47637B405; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 23:28:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fAE7RmT17920; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 23:27:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: Cc: "Brett Glass" , , "Joey Garcia" , , Subject: RE: Anyone going to Comdex next week? Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 23:27:48 -0800 Message-ID: <003d01c16cdd$dc7df8e0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <3BF04D57.3D67D78C@mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Terry Lambert [mailto:tlambert2@mindspring.com] >Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 2:30 PM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Brett Glass; jgrosch@mooseriver.com; Joey Garcia; >questions@FreeBSD.ORG; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Anyone going to Comdex next week? > > >Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> Today, the existing hardware is so good that there's not the drive to >> upgrade as soon as the new stuff is available, so that removes a lot of >> the reason of attending these trade shows for hardware people. > >I think this is false. There have always been two tiers of >technology: heroic and mortal. It's only interesting when >something slips from the former category to the latter. > >Right now, for example, there is a lot of hardware that I >would put in the "heroic" category. Processors that need >incredible cooling technology, etc.. And then there's the >other end of the spectrum, where ther are no moving parts. > >Plotting on other scales works for this, as well: many of >the "cool" technologies aren't useful, until you can deal >with the battery life issue: they don't -- they can't -- >become everyday objects until it's possible to integrate >them into your life without heroic effort (ask yourself: >why isn't every desktop computer a laptop? Why hasn't >laptop technology totally displaced desktop technology?). > >So there is huge room for improvement in hardware technology >still, and I'd certainly pay to go see someone doing it, >only no one seems to be doing it these days. > Re-reading my comment I think it's a bad edit on my part. Your right in what you say, but what I was talking about is improvements in the "mortal" technology. They are getting further along the diminishing returns line and as such fewer "mortals" are thinking about hardware, thus less interest in general. What I've seen happen with new technology is that in the past there's always the first "guinea pigs". I remember when Grand Junction came out with their early 100Mbt hubs attending a dog and pony show. I sat there and thought "this is cool stuff yes but who in the hell is Grand Junction" Most of the other tech managers there were swallowing the idea that this one product was going to make Grand Junction the new master hub vendor and the old hub companies like 3com were going to fade into the dust. They were lining up with their $20K in hand. Of course we all know what happened there. Today most of the other managers with the $20K in hand think like I did and they won't put the folding green out even if the new technology runs around the room and makes dinner for them in addition to doing what it's supposed to do. This does put the crimp in new hardware introduction because the companies that are introducing it need a lot of those $20K payments to move the hardware from the early adopter stage "heroic" to a product with some longevity. "mortal" And those $20K payments have to come from the mortals that are conned into coughing them up, because there's not enough of the "I see the new toy and I got unlimited cash to burn on it" people to finance the movement from "heroic" to "mortal" > >> And, also today, GNU and Free software is more and more important, and >> Windows and other commercial software is getting less important, and >> the new cool things in software aren't being introduced by people like >> Apple, Microsoft and IBM anymore. Instead they are being introduced by >> user communities around FreeBSD and Linux. > >I really think this is wrong. It's a nice bit of hedonism, >but the cool things aren't happening in user communities; for >the most part, they are still happening in industry and in the >academic sector. don't you consider the academic sector a user community? >There's just less money to pursue things >deemed "impractical" these days: people are increasingly >focussed on short term goals. There is less margin for having >the ability to pursue long term visions and carry them into >reality. > Actually I think that there's plenty of money out there, but the problem is that the investment community has decided that most of the technology sector can't be trusted with it. I don't blame them, the past 20 years has been shameful with how many technology people have urinated away money on ideas that were obviously stupid, and had absolutely no market research done on them to see if the man on the street would be even interested in them. Most of the technology types that ran around the last 5 years claiming to be visionaries (or paying people to write articles about how they were visionaries) were more interested in getting a foosball table in the office, and in getting on the cover of "office personnel times" with a nice article about how advanced their "no-tie-policy" was in the office. When, for example, was the last time you saw a software firm CEO in a tailored suit? (and I mean a real one, with matching pants and jacket) Most of those people regarded work as this place you go to to goof off, profitability was left to the accountants. Anyway, that crowd of technology visionaries got their asses burned off and slunk away to go sell snake oil to someone else. Now we have an industry that's got a leadership vacuum, and it's going to take another decade before the investment community trusts us with anything more than monopoly money again. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 13 23:36:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E2F837B405; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 23:36:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fAE7aZT17940; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 23:36:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Robert Clark" , "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Brett Glass" , , "Joey Garcia" , , Subject: RE: Anyone going to Comdex next week? Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 23:36:35 -0800 Message-ID: <003e01c16cdf$16635540$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20011112224943.K69342@darkstar.gte.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Robert Clark >Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 10:50 PM >To: Terry Lambert >Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt; Brett Glass; jgrosch@mooseriver.com; Joey Garcia; >questions@FreeBSD.ORG; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Anyone going to Comdex next week? > > >Will MS ever bee in a bad enough situation that they are a lower >state of energy than Linux? > >If they get into this state, won't a big part of the reason to >stay with Linux dissapear? > There's been a trend in the market for companies to get successful by entering the market at the bottom - by making products that were of most interest to small customers. Then they get successful, and start making products that are more attractive to larger customers that they can sell for more money. THey start forgetting the smaller customers. Then after a while they are just making products for enterprise customers that sell for an obscene amount of money, and they leave even more customers behind. Meanwhile, other companies have moved in are are working their way up the chain. The ones at the top get pushed out, go through massive contractions and selloff of unprofitable divisions, then start down at the bottom all over again. That seems to have happened to IBM if you count their involvement in Linux as a bottom end thing. I think by the time that MS is in a bad situation, Linux will take a team of engineers with certifications and a $10K budget to install. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 14 0:45: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mitch.adsl.labyrinth.net.au (mitch.adsl.labyrinth.net.au [202.182.88.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55F3C37B418; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 00:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.mitchells.com.au (ip30.int.mitchells.com.au [192.168.120.30]) by mitch.adsl.labyrinth.net.au (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fAE8ia623242; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 19:44:40 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jmorgan@mitchells.com.au) Received: by mail.mitchells.com.au(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.7 (934.1 12-30-1999)) id 4A256B04.0034AB0D ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 19:35:16 +1000 X-Lotus-FromDomain: MITCHELLMELB From: "Julian Morgan" To: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <4A256B04.0034A9DA.00@mail.mitchells.com.au> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 19:35:11 +1000 Subject: Named and NatD running mad in TOP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi there, was wondering why the following was occuring when I ran top... Of course all other processes were effected... PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE TIME WCPU CPU COMMAND 199 bind 54 0 16740K 16168K RUN 90.0H 70.36% 70.36% named 177 root 2 0 728K 504K select 397:18 11.47% 11.47% natd 60328 root 28 0 1892K 984K RUN 0:00 1.13% 0.29% top Although I did mailq and there was nothing in there I would say ppl in the office would have trouble getting resources from the server.. After a reboot, both Named and Nat were going sky high... I rebooted 3 times and this was the case... In the end I ended up going to /etc/resolv.conf and checking that it just had the two named servers to my ISP. And then I went to /etc/named/named.conf and I think that it was getting into a erternal loop - as I had 127.0.0.1 in there half way down the list of forwarding addresses... I know that this config has not been changed for months - but it has decided to throw a wobbly now... Wondering if you had any thoughts.. Regards Julian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 14 2: 7: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBF2D37B416; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 02:06:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [194.78.144.27] ([194.78.144.27]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fAEA6Z400275; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:06:36 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4A256B04.0034A9DA.00@mail.mitchells.com.au> References: <4A256B04.0034A9DA.00@mail.mitchells.com.au> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:05:00 +0100 To: "Julian Morgan" , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Named and NatD running mad in TOP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:35 PM +1000 11/14/01, Julian Morgan wrote: > Although I did mailq and there was nothing in there I would say ppl in the > office would have trouble getting resources from the server.. After a reboot, > both Named and Nat were going sky high... Turn on query logging, so that you can see where your DNS queries are coming from. Many people have found that they're running open caching/recursive servers and are getting the hell abused out of their machines by an amazing variety of people on the 'net. If you don't turn on query logging, at least configure your machine so that it does not answer queries from non-local IP addresses (whatever you have on your local network behind the NAT). If you're still getting high usage rates after turning off public caching/recursive service, then check to see if you've got a program that is going through and parsing web log data (webalizer or whatever), because that process will seriously chew up DNS server resources while its running. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 14 3:52:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web20905.mail.yahoo.com (web20905.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5ABE737B417 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 03:52:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011114115235.68048.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web20905.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 03:52:35 PST Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 03:52:35 -0800 (PST) From: Uzi Nyet Subject: BSD article: why maxuser=20? To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hiya, why this PhD guy talks about 4 and raises it to 20? Mine has 32 in default install. And why he uses the latest Linux vs 4.3? That is not a fait comparison - over 6 months lag. I hope that was a typo in regards to maxusers. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 14 12:28:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web20902.mail.yahoo.com (web20902.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3309037B416 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:28:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011114202813.35986.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web20902.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:28:13 PST Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:28:13 -0800 (PST) From: Uzi Nyet Subject: Re: BSD article: why maxuser=20? To: Robert Hough Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20011114070904.A47661@acidpit.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oops, frailing memory http://www.byte.com/servinglinux/2001/11/ --- Robert Hough wrote: > On Wed, Nov 14, 2001, Uzi Nyet wrote: > > > > why this PhD guy talks about 4 and raises it to > 20? > > Mine has 32 in default install. And why he uses > the > > latest Linux vs 4.3? That is not a fait comparison > - > > over 6 months lag. > > I hope that was a typo in regards to maxusers. > > What article are you talking about? If you have a > link, please post it > so the rest of us can get a good laugh too. :) > > -- > Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 14 18:18:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from urdvg136.cms.usa.net (urdvg136.cms.usa.net [204.68.25.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5AC3537B417 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 18:18:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 12668 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2001 01:25:22 -0000 Received: from cpdvg201.cms.usa.net (165.212.10.5) by outbound.postoffice.net with SMTP; 15 Nov 2001 01:25:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 11328 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Nov 2001 01:23:45 -0000 Message-ID: <20011115012345.11327.qmail@cpdvg201.cms.usa.net> Received: from 165.212.10.5 by mx06 for [165.212.15.106] via web-mailer(34FM.0700.21.01) on Thu Nov 15 01:23:45 GMT 2001 Date: 14 Nov 2001 18:23:45 MST From: J S To: Michel Talon , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Re: Course of law] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (34FM.0700.21.01) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Michel Talon wrote: > > Minor correction: "military", not "civilians". If you shoot at > > civilians, you're a terrorist. > = > What you are saying was true in 18 th century perhaps, but is > completely off-topic now. Take the example of World War II. The > allies have completely erased whole German cities like Dresden > making thousands of civilian casualties, not to mention Hiroshima > and Nagasaki. In fact the modern war is conducted mainly against > civilians, in the hope it will diminish the military resources. > This implies that it is not possible to make a clear cut distinction > between war activities and terrorism, except in rethorics. > As you surely know, Vietnam war has been won againsts Frenchs and then > Americans using "terrorist" methods, followed by full scale war methods= =2E > In Algeria, the war has been gained against the Frenchs purely by the u= se > of "terrorist" methods. Or to give an other example, when the Frenchs > were occupied by the Germans during World War II, the activities of > French resistants were depicted by the Germans as "terrorism". = > So please, as a computer scientist, try to dismiss arguments who > have a completely void real content. In reality all forms of war are > evil, and necessarily lead to immoral behavior. > = > -- = > Michel Talon violence begets violence - it just depends on who is writing the story as to what justification they create for it. = fight war, not wars joshua Joshua Smith, CCNA Data Center Technian USA.NET "Walk with me through the Universe, And along the way see how all of us are Connected. Feast the eyes of your Soul, On the Love that abounds. In all places at once, seemingly endless, Like your own existence." - Stephen Hawking - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 14 18:29:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from urdvg136.cms.usa.net (urdvg136.cms.usa.net [204.68.25.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7B45537B416 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 18:29:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25923 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2001 01:43:02 -0000 Received: from cpdvg203.cms.usa.net (165.212.11.13) by outbound.postoffice.net with SMTP; 15 Nov 2001 01:43:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 15614 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Nov 2001 01:41:30 -0000 Message-ID: <20011115014130.15613.qmail@cpdvg203.cms.usa.net> Received: from 165.212.11.13 by mx09 for [165.212.15.106] via web-mailer(34FM.0700.21.01) on Thu Nov 15 01:41:30 GMT 2001 Date: 14 Nov 2001 18:41:30 MST From: J S To: Yonatan Bokovza , Greg Lehey , Brett Glass Subject: Re: [RE: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror)))] Cc: Yonatan Bokovza , Stephen McKay , chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (34FM.0700.21.01) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yonatan Bokovza wrote: [snip] > = > Israel is open to suggestions. I'm not being cynic! Since the peace > talks failed, I see no way out of the situation we're in, but escalatin= g > force. The sad fact is that the Palestinians have more to gain if they > continue their terror, and until that changes, they have no reason to > negotiate cease-fire. > = but israel isn't open to suggestions - both the israelis and the = palestinians are so damn afraid of looking weak or giving something up that neither side is actually willing to solve the problem. both sides make a lot of positive sounding noises, but then ruin it by killing= each other the next day and pointing fingers at the other party. it is always the other side's fault - until both sides take complete = responsibility for their actions and are willing to change them, the vicious circle will continue. more people will die, more fingers will get pointed, and nothing will change. does anyone else have visions of when they were five??? he started it - no i didn't, he did...and so on joshua Joshua Smith, CCNA Data Center Technian USA.NET "Walk with me through the Universe, And along the way see how all of us are Connected. Feast the eyes of your Soul, On the Love that abounds. In all places at once, seemingly endless, Like your own existence." - Stephen Hawking - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 14 19: 6:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from urdvg135.cms.usa.net (urdvg135.cms.usa.net [204.68.25.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5D0E937B416 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 19:06:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3275 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2001 00:44:09 -0000 Received: from cpdvg203.cms.usa.net (165.212.11.13) by outbound.postoffice.net with SMTP; 15 Nov 2001 00:44:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 29285 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Nov 2001 00:36:02 -0000 Message-ID: <20011115003602.29283.qmail@cpdvg203.cms.usa.net> Received: from 165.212.11.13 by mx09 for [165.212.15.106] via web-mailer(34FM.0700.21.01) on Thu Nov 15 00:36:02 GMT 2001 Date: 14 Nov 2001 17:36:02 MST From: J S To: Francisco Reyes , paul@saxa.georgetown.edu Subject: Re: [Re: Email hosting] Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (34FM.0700.21.01) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes wrote: > = > On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 paul@saxa.georgetown.edu wrote: > > Can anyone recommend an email hosting service (company)? > = > addy.com > They are not an email hosting company per-se, but in the years I have h= ad > them email is the primary things I have kept them for. > = > They are a web hosting company, but only charge 1$ per email address > beyond the first account. > = you could check out usa.net - two unix based systems, or an exchange based one - (we can use the business) joshua Joshua Smith, CCNA Data Center Technian USA.NET "Walk with me through the Universe, And along the way see how all of us are Connected. Feast the eyes of your Soul, On the Love that abounds. In all places at once, seemingly endless, Like your own existence." - Stephen Hawking - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 14 19:30:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from urdvg136.cms.usa.net (urdvg136.cms.usa.net [204.68.25.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6DE5237B416 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 19:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5906 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2001 03:16:54 -0000 Received: from cpdvg100.netaddress.usa.net (165.212.8.100) by outbound.postoffice.net with SMTP; 15 Nov 2001 03:16:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 584 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Nov 2001 03:15:41 -0000 Message-ID: <20011115031541.583.qmail@cpdvg100.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 165.212.8.100 by mx08 for [165.212.15.106] via web-mailer(34FM.0700.21.01) on Thu Nov 15 03:15:41 GMT 2001 Date: 14 Nov 2001 20:15:41 MST From: J S To: Robert Clark , Ade Lovett Subject: Re: [Re: Religion: islam is not what you think... Look at yourself first.] Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (34FM.0700.21.01) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Clark wrote: > = > Recursion in progress. > = > We must not tolerate the intolerant. > = > We must kill the murderers. > = > We must exterminate the exterminators. > = make me think of a bumper sticker: why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing is wrong? joshua Joshua Smith, CCNA Data Center Technian USA.NET "Walk with me through the Universe, And along the way see how all of us are Connected. Feast the eyes of your Soul, On the Love that abounds. In all places at once, seemingly endless, Like your own existence." - Stephen Hawking - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 14 20: 9:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from urdvg135.cms.usa.net (urdvg135.cms.usa.net [204.68.25.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DA8DE37B419 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 20:09:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3929 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2001 01:41:58 -0000 Received: from cpdvg203.cms.usa.net (165.212.11.13) by outbound.postoffice.net with SMTP; 15 Nov 2001 01:41:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 14578 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Nov 2001 01:33:51 -0000 Message-ID: <20011115013351.14577.qmail@cpdvg203.cms.usa.net> Received: from 165.212.11.13 by mx09 for [165.212.15.106] via web-mailer(34FM.0700.21.01) on Thu Nov 15 01:33:51 GMT 2001 Date: 14 Nov 2001 18:33:51 MST From: J S To: Yonatan Bokovza , Giorgos Keramidas , Terry Lambert Subject: Re: [RE: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was Re: helping vi ctims of terror)))] Cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (34FM.0700.21.01) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yonatan Bokovza wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Giorgos Keramidas [mailto:charon@labs.gr] > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 07:31 > > To: Terry Lambert > > Cc: Greg Lehey; chat@FreeBSD.ORG > > Subject: Re: Course of law (was: Islam (was: Religions (was = > > Re: helping vi ctims of terror))) > > = > > = > > On Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 08:19:42PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > I think I should point out that I'm targetting the Israelis here > > > > because they should know better, and that answering = > > violence with more > > > > violence doesn't work. In fact, I'm more sympathetic to = > > the Israaeli > > > > cause than I am to the Palestinian cause. I know that the > > > > Palestinians started it. But this isn't the way to get = > > people to stop > > > > if they're prepared to die for their cause. > > > = > > > Actually, if you eliminate _all_ of your enemies in the > > > process, answering violence with more violence works. > > = > > Well, in a similar tangle of thoughts, if a nuclear holocaust does > > guarantee that all the `enemies' will die, it `works' too. But that > > does not make it justifiable, by any means. > = > And Now To Something Completely Different: If your belief is that > evolution is above all, even the human race, then nuclear > holocaust is paradise for mutants. That's a Good Thing - > evolution-wise. > You see, everything's justifiable with the correct use of some > sense, imagination and logic to tie it up. > = we are all human - no matter what color our skin, or what name we call our god(s) - inside we are the same. evolution won't change that, true we may specialize to the environment we are in, but we will still be human. = and to greg's statement - you can never eliminate all "enemies" unless you are the only one left (singular, as in one person, not nation). there can never be enough justification or positive results for killing and violence. = joshua **fight war, not wars** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 14 23: 2:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sherline.net (216-203-226-2.customer.algx.net [216.203.226.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0B6C437B416 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:02:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 29927 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2001 07:02:10 -0000 Received: from cx443070-a.vista1.sdca.home.com (HELO cx443070b) (24.4.93.90) by sherline.net with SMTP; 15 Nov 2001 07:02:10 -0000 Message-ID: <002701c16da3$806dc960$a700a8c0@cx443070b> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: , Subject: OT: AMD Mobile CPUs Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 23:02:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Guys, I hate to make such an OT post, so I'll try to make it short. I'm a FreeBSD admin writing on behalf of owners of the very very flawed Sony Vaio FX210 and FX215 laptops. We're trying to resolve some of the problems with our laptops by replacing the mobile Duron CPU. Basically what we're looking for is a source where we can purchase AMD Athlon and Duron mobile CPUs. (a) Yes, we are sure other Socket A mobile CPUs will work. We have tested a couple including the newest Athlon 4 mobiles. (b) Yes, we've already contacted Sony and AMD. If you know someone involved with laptops, AMD, or any other source that might be able to aquire perhaps 20 mobile cpus, we would really appreciate any contacts you might have. We currently have Mobile Durons with the Spitfire core, which has no PowerNow! support, the source of one of our problems. We have solved every possible issue in making one of the new CPUs work in our laptops. The only problem we are having is trying to aquire them. The tests we've done were all supplied with CPUs from other AMD laptop owners. Thanks for any help you can provide. Please email me directly with your responses, and don't CC the list since this *is* OT. I apologize in advance for the chat/hackers crosspost. We're trying to recover some value from a very recent $1700 investment. And of course my laptop runs FreeBSD. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 15 8:49: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5180D37B405 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 08:49:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0FDBF18F0; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 09:47:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3EB818EE for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 09:47:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 09:47:54 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hamell To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: More Microsoft news... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And this one is worth a laugh... Apparently Microsoft is going to save America from this economic recession! http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2823984,00.html ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://hw.shatteredcrystal.com ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 15 10:56: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from c527597-a.cstvl1.sfba.home.com (c527597-a.cstvl1.sfba.home.com [24.176.204.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D3537B405; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:56:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bmah@localhost) by c527597-a.cstvl1.sfba.home.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fAFItsG04087; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:55:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah) Message-Id: <200111151855.fAFItsG04087@c527597-a.cstvl1.sfba.home.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Matthew Dillon Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DELL 2550 boxen In-Reply-To: <200111151623.fAFGNpe27257@apollo.backplane.com> References: <200111140948340450.386219BA@smtp> <200111151623.fAFGNpe27257@apollo.backplane.com> Comments: In-reply-to Matthew Dillon message dated "Thu, 15 Nov 2001 08:23:51 -0800." From: "Bruce A. Mah" Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_30482456P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:55:54 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --==_Exmh_30482456P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii [Lest anyone even think of replying to this, follow-up to -chat] If memory serves me right, Matthew Dillon wrote: > In anycase, the ones I have are duel-1.2 GHz and can build the world in ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > 26 minutes. I think the newer ones go up to 1.9 GHz. Is this like...what...dueling banjos? :-) Bruce. --==_Exmh_30482456P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Exmh version 2.3.1+ 05/14/2001 iD8DBQE79A+62MoxcVugUsMRApiaAKC5X3rRxpV+5fJD28FTAY0TTgO9qgCgpOA+ 0fN0OPtFQj+/O7TfpCuPjoo= =CpZd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_30482456P-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 15 12: 8:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB2DD37B422 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 12:08:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.139.20.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.139.20] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 164Snz-0000II-00; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 12:08:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3BF420DB.3CACB2C6@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 12:08:59 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick Hamell Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: More Microsoft news... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rick Hamell wrote: > > And this one is worth a laugh... Apparently Microsoft is going to > save America from this economic recession! > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2823984,00.html The comments on pen computing are incredibly stupid. Why does everyone believe that there is an evolutionary path between any two species, and that revolutionary change can always be built slowly with evolutionary "baby steps"? That's like claiming that if you mofy birds slowly enough, you will evntually get rabbits. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 15 15:17:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82BE337B417; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 15:17:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 651A414C2E; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 00:17:12 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Greg Lehey Cc: =?iso-8859-1?q?G=E9rard?= Roudier , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/sym README.sym sym_conf.h sym_defs.h sym_fw.h sym_fw1.h sym_fw2.h sym_hipd.c References: <20011115092648.D40270@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115173030.H1646-100000@gerard> <20011116072258.H72194@monorchid.lemis.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Nov 2001 00:17:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20011116072258.H72194@monorchid.lemis.com> Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > You should have come to the BSDCon in Brighton. I brought two bottles > of good Australian wine, but I couldn't find anybody who was > interested, so I took it back with me again :-( Hey, you didn't ask me! DES (eunophile) -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 15 15:23: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02CEE37B416 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 15:22:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 09DDF786E1; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:52:57 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:52:56 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard?= Roudier , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/sym README.sym sym_conf.h sym_defs.h sym_fw.h sym_fw1.h sym_fw2.h sym_hipd.c Message-ID: <20011116095256.D62122@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011115092648.D40270@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115173030.H1646-100000@gerard> <20011116072258.H72194@monorchid.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 16 November 2001 at 0:17:12 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >> You should have come to the BSDCon in Brighton. I brought two bottles >> of good Australian wine, but I couldn't find anybody who was >> interested, so I took it back with me again :-( > > Hey, you didn't ask me! > > DES (eunophile) Hey, you didn't tell me! In fact, the real issue was that there was no time, of course. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 15 15:42:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3007D37B405; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 15:42:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id F16BF786E3; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:12:47 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:12:47 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Josef Karthauser Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard?= Roudier , Gerard Roudier , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/sym README.sym sym_conf.h sym_defs.h sym_fw.h sym_fw1.h sym_fw2.h sym_hipd.c Message-ID: <20011116101247.E62122@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011115092648.D40270@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115173030.H1646-100000@gerard> <20011116072258.H72194@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115233727.T6136@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011115233727.T6136@tao.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 15 November 2001 at 23:37:27 +0000, Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 07:22:58AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> You should have come to the BSDCon in Brighton. I brought two bottles >> of good Australian wine, but I couldn't find anybody who was >> interested, so I took it back with me again :-( >> > > I don't remember you asking us! ;) I'm sure I did. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 15 15:46:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDDCD37B41A; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 15:46:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 0DC64456; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 23:46:17 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 23:46:17 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: Greg Lehey Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard_Roudier?= , Gerard Roudier , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/sym README.sym sym_conf.h sym_defs.h sym_fw.h sym_fw1.h sym_fw2.h sym_hipd.c Message-ID: <20011115234617.U6136@tao.org.uk> References: <20011115092648.D40270@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115173030.H1646-100000@gerard> <20011116072258.H72194@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115233727.T6136@tao.org.uk> <20011116101247.E62122@monorchid.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="dg6Tyglv1qyvGx3q" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011116101247.E62122@monorchid.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.org on Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 10:12:47AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --dg6Tyglv1qyvGx3q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 10:12:47AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 15 November 2001 at 23:37:27 +0000, Josef Karthauser wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 07:22:58AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> > >> You should have come to the BSDCon in Brighton. I brought two bottles > >> of good Australian wine, but I couldn't find anybody who was > >> interested, so I took it back with me again :-( > >> > > > > I don't remember you asking us! ;) >=20 > I'm sure I did. You missed me then :(. Joe --dg6Tyglv1qyvGx3q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjv0U8gACgkQXVIcjOaxUBbKAACgp2nX9WBOKlCsWh+0DTOJnWTq pPYAnjeSiRJP4MGeoaEr2UVB0MlwRENH =F9gH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --dg6Tyglv1qyvGx3q-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 15 15:57:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89E9337B416; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 15:57:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 6F5E27855F; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:27:53 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:27:53 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Josef Karthauser Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard?= Roudier , Gerard Roudier , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/sym README.sym sym_conf.h sym_defs.h sym_fw.h sym_fw1.h sym_fw2.h sym_hipd.c Message-ID: <20011116102753.F62122@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011115092648.D40270@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115173030.H1646-100000@gerard> <20011116072258.H72194@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115233727.T6136@tao.org.uk> <20011116101247.E62122@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115234617.U6136@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011115234617.U6136@tao.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 15 November 2001 at 23:46:17 +0000, Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 10:12:47AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Thursday, 15 November 2001 at 23:37:27 +0000, Josef Karthauser wrote: >>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 07:22:58AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >>>> >>>> You should have come to the BSDCon in Brighton. I brought two bottles >>>> of good Australian wine, but I couldn't find anybody who was >>>> interested, so I took it back with me again :-( >>>> >>> >>> I don't remember you asking us! ;) >> >> I'm sure I did. > > You missed me then :(. Ah, well, we'll do it at the AUUG conference, then :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 15 16:31:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FDB437B405; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 16:31:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 1B2E114C41; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 01:31:54 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Greg Lehey Cc: Josef Karthauser , =?iso-8859-1?q?G=E9rard?= Roudier , Gerard Roudier , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/sym README.sym sym_conf.h sym_defs.h sym_fw.h sym_fw1.h sym_fw2.h sym_hipd.c References: <20011115092648.D40270@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115173030.H1646-100000@gerard> <20011116072258.H72194@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115233727.T6136@tao.org.uk> <20011116101247.E62122@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115234617.U6136@tao.org.uk> <20011116102753.F62122@monorchid.lemis.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Nov 2001 01:31:53 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20011116102753.F62122@monorchid.lemis.com> Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > Ah, well, we'll do it at the AUUG conference, then :-) Do they have a website? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 15 16:53:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC07837B405; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 16:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 10228786E1; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:23:23 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:23:22 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Josef Karthauser , =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard?= Roudier , Gerard Roudier , FreeBSD Chat Subject: AUUG conference (was: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/sym README.sym sym_conf.h sym_defs.h sym_fw.h sym_fw1.h sym_fw2.h sym_hipd.c) Message-ID: <20011116112322.J62122@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011115092648.D40270@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115173030.H1646-100000@gerard> <20011116072258.H72194@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115233727.T6136@tao.org.uk> <20011116101247.E62122@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115234617.U6136@tao.org.uk> <20011116102753.F62122@monorchid.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 16 November 2001 at 1:31:53 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >> Ah, well, we'll do it at the AUUG conference, then :-) > > Do they have a website? Of course, http://www.auug.org.au/, running FreeBSD. I note that next year's conference isn't up yet, but it will be soon. First week in September. Get a feeling for the fun we have at http://www.auug.org.au/winter/auug2001/photos/index.html Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 15 17:19:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C603637B417; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 17:19:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id C005014C2E; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 02:19:34 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Greg Lehey Cc: Josef Karthauser , =?iso-8859-1?q?G=E9rard?= Roudier , Gerard Roudier , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: AUUG conference (was: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/sym README.sym sym_conf.h sym_defs.h sym_fw.h sym_fw1.h sym_fw2.h sym_hipd.c) References: <20011115092648.D40270@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115173030.H1646-100000@gerard> <20011116072258.H72194@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115233727.T6136@tao.org.uk> <20011116101247.E62122@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115234617.U6136@tao.org.uk> <20011116102753.F62122@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011116112322.J62122@monorchid.lemis.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Nov 2001 02:19:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20011116112322.J62122@monorchid.lemis.com> Message-ID: Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > http://www.auug.org.au/winter/auug2001/photos/index.html The first image I viewed (at random) was: http://www.auug.org.au/winter/auug2001/photos/room-party/p0001821.jpg Who's the poor lady and what are you doing to her? :) I like room parties though. I'd love to go, but I'm afraid of what it will cost - my grilf would MDK me if I went to Oz without her, and while I might be able to afford the trip myself, I'm not sure she can. But it's almost a year away, so we'll see. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 15 17:23:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-92-93.knology.net [24.214.92.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A2DE37B405 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 17:23:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fAG1NCU54505; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 19:23:12 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200111160123.fAG1NCU54505@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: More Microsoft news... In-reply-to: Message from Terry Lambert of "Thu, 15 Nov 2001 12:08:59 PST." <3BF420DB.3CACB2C6@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 19:23:12 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Rick Hamell wrote: > > > > And this one is worth a laugh... Apparently Microsoft is going to > > save America from this economic recession! > > > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2823984,00.html > > The comments on pen computing are incredibly stupid. Why does > everyone believe that there is an evolutionary path between any > two species, and that revolutionary change can always be built > slowly with evolutionary "baby steps"? That's like claiming > that if you mofy birds slowly enough, you will evntually get > rabbits. Not everyone. Just Bill Gates and MS. After all MS has never done anything revolutionary, it always takes at least 3 versions (of evolution) to get something working half right. If MS wanted to be revolutionary they would have dropped DOS a long time ago. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 15 17:59: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53CBA37B419; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 17:58:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D4CD27855F; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:28:41 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:28:41 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Josef Karthauser , =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard?= Roudier , Gerard Roudier , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: AUUG conference (was: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/sym README.sym sym_conf.h sym_defs.h sym_fw.h sym_fw1.h sym_fw2.h sym_hipd.c) Message-ID: <20011116122841.L62122@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011115092648.D40270@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115173030.H1646-100000@gerard> <20011116072258.H72194@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115233727.T6136@tao.org.uk> <20011116101247.E62122@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115234617.U6136@tao.org.uk> <20011116102753.F62122@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011116112322.J62122@monorchid.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 16 November 2001 at 2:19:34 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >> http://www.auug.org.au/winter/auug2001/photos/index.html > > The first image I viewed (at random) was: > > http://www.auug.org.au/winter/auug2001/photos/room-party/p0001821.jpg Good choice. > Who's the poor lady Her name's Pauline. Other photos at http://www.auug.org.au/winter/auug2001/photos/room-party/p0001822.jpg and http://www.auug.org.au/winter/auug2001/photos/room-party/p0001829.jpg > and what are you doing to her? :) Telling you would spoil the story. > I'd love to go, but I'm afraid of what it will cost - my grilf would > MDK me if I went to Oz without her, and while I might be able to > afford the trip myself, I'm not sure she can. But it's almost a > year away, so we'll see. Well, remember that you can present a paper and get free admission to the conference. Note also that the cost of living in Australia is about half of that in the USA; it may be more expensive to get there, but once you're there it's cheap. Also, the air fares you mentioned at the Con are much higher than I recall. A quick search in Yahoo! shows a return flight shows a fare of £490 at http://www.ozflights.co.uk/voffers.htm, or example. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 15 18:35: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA3AC37B416; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 18:35:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C0EB87855F; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 13:04:58 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 13:04:58 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Josef Karthauser , =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard?= Roudier , Gerard Roudier , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: AUUG conference (was: cvs commit: src/sys/dev/sym README.sym sym_conf.h sym_defs.h sym_fw.h sym_fw1.h sym_fw2.h sym_hipd.c) Message-ID: <20011116130458.A21060@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011115092648.D40270@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115173030.H1646-100000@gerard> <20011116072258.H72194@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115233727.T6136@tao.org.uk> <20011116101247.E62122@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011115234617.U6136@tao.org.uk> <20011116102753.F62122@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011116112322.J62122@monorchid.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 16 November 2001 at 2:19:34 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >> http://www.auug.org.au/winter/auug2001/photos/index.html > > The first image I viewed (at random) was: > > http://www.auug.org.au/winter/auug2001/photos/room-party/p0001821.jpg > > Who's the poor lady and what are you doing to her? :) Ah, OK. She was very drunk (see http://www.auug.org.au/winter/auug2001/photos/room-party/p0001828.jpg), and she was bursting all the balloons we had. I tried to stop her, with little success, but she did graduate to destroying switches (not by falling on them, but by rapidly power-cycling them). Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 16 1:24:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx3.uninterruptible.net (cyclonis.catonic.net [63.160.99.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C46A37B405 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 01:24:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by mx3.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5889A5503 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 03:19:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt8-216-180-71-68.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.71.68]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A33650024 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:24:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id D633F331D; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:26:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15674C22 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:26:42 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:26:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: Subject: Fortune Canidate (Was: I've figured out spammers!) Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net X-Frames: I hate frames. Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Fortune Canidate! ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 17:56:19 -0500 From: Timothy Ball Subject: [nlug] I've figured out spammers! all spammers are underpants gnomes! check it out: 1) Spam 1,000,000 people; 2) ???; 3) Profits!! It's all very clear now. I need a stick. That's a bad gnome. --timball -- GPG key available on pgpkeys.mit.edu pub 1024D/511FBD54 2001-07-23 Timothy Lu Hu Ball Key fingerprint = B579 29B0 F6C8 C7AA 3840 E053 FE02 BB97 511F BD54 -- Send all requests to: nlug-request@linuxlists.org Put your command in the SUBJECT of the message: "subscribe", "unsubscribe", "set digest on", or "set digest off" ********************************************************************** This list is from your pals at NetCentral To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 16 8:52:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heechee.tobez.org (254.adsl0.ryv.worldonline.dk [213.237.10.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7C237B417 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 08:52:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by heechee.tobez.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 51568541E; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 17:52:36 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 17:52:36 +0100 From: Anton Berezin To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rick Hamell , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: More Microsoft news... Message-ID: <20011116175236.A94582@heechee.tobez.org> Mail-Followup-To: Anton Berezin , Terry Lambert , Rick Hamell , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3BF420DB.3CACB2C6@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BF420DB.3CACB2C6@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Thu, Nov 15, 2001 at 12:08:59PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Nov 15, 2001 at 12:08:59PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Why does everyone believe that there is an evolutionary path between > any two species, and that revolutionary change can always be built > slowly with evolutionary "baby steps"? That's like claiming that if > you mofy birds slowly enough, you will evntually get rabbits. Well, that's easy. You can always go from the first one backwards to the common ancestor and then follow the natural path to the other one. =Anton. -- | Anton Berezin | FreeBSD: The power to serve | | catpipe Systems ApS _ _ |_ | http://www.FreeBSD.org | | tobez@catpipe.net (_(_|| | tobez@FreeBSD.org | | +45 7021 0050 | Private: tobez@tobez.org | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 16 14:38:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF88E37B41B for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 14:38:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.137.44.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.137.44] helo=blossom.cjclark.org) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 164rd1-00024b-00; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 14:38:32 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fAGMbsq54055; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 14:37:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 14:37:54 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Anton Berezin Cc: Terry Lambert , Rick Hamell , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More Microsoft news... Message-ID: <20011116143754.D50971@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <3BF420DB.3CACB2C6@mindspring.com> <20011116175236.A94582@heechee.tobez.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011116175236.A94582@heechee.tobez.org>; from tobez@tobez.org on Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 05:52:36PM +0100 X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 05:52:36PM +0100, Anton Berezin wrote: > On Thu, Nov 15, 2001 at 12:08:59PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Why does everyone believe that there is an evolutionary path between > > any two species, and that revolutionary change can always be built > > slowly with evolutionary "baby steps"? That's like claiming that if > > you mofy birds slowly enough, you will evntually get rabbits. > > Well, that's easy. You can always go from the first one backwards to ^^^^^^^^^ > the common ancestor and then follow the natural path to the other one. It does not necessarily work in reverse. I think you misunderstand the anaology. -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 16 15:18:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net (we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net [24.126.55.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A73C937B416 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 15:18:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix.homeip.net (sjivid@unix.homeip.net [24.126.55.112]) by we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fAGNIoZ05892 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 15:18:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bear@unix.homeip.net) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 15:18:50 -0800 (PST) From: Joey Garcia X-X-Sender: bear@we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RTFM: it works!! Message-ID: <20011116150722.H1363-100000@we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So I've been playing with Solaris lately. Being a BSD junkie, time still trying to get used to it. Sure there maybe alot of you out there that have plenty of Solaris experience, but unfortunately I don't so I have to do alot of RTFM'ing. Unix started off as a hobby for me, now it's almost and obsession. ;) Luckily, I've been messing with BSD for so many years that it's easy for me to find the answers that I need with a bit of digging and reading. I had a Canon ImageRunner printer that I wanted to print to via the Solaris box, but I didn't know what rp name to use so I just cracked the manuals open and found my answer. Now I'm happlly printing. Only took me about 15-30 minutes to figure everything out (tried a few rp names before I decided to read the manual). Now everyone knows that RTFM'ing is the way to go, and in times when you're really stuck then you ask the Unix elders to give you a helping hand. I bring up this subject because one of my coworkers never bothers to read manuals or look up information via the Internet. And it bugs me, because its me he's always coming to for answers. The one thing that bugs me the most is when he asks me where the driver disks are for whatever peice of hardware. I tell him, "DTFD!" When in doubt, just Download The F***** Drivers. ;) It's not like we have quirky hardware here, most the stuff is name brand so the drivers are totally available. *sigh* Well, I just had to get that off my chest. I feel better now. :) Joey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 16 16:21:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from out007pub.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5356F37B417 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:21:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by out007pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id fAH0NGH04657 Fri, 16 Nov 2001 18:23:17 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA78419; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:22:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:22:08 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Joey Garcia Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RTFM: it works!! Message-ID: <20011116162208.F78286@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20011116150722.H1363-100000@we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20011116150722.H1363-100000@we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net>; from bear@unix.homeip.net on Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 03:18:50PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So you're the SE (someone experienced), and he is the MCSE (must consult someone experienced). Sometimes playing dumb is the way to go. I don't admit to knowing how to build serial cables anymore. [RC] On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 03:18:50PM -0800, Joey Garcia wrote: > > So I've been playing with Solaris lately. Being a BSD junkie, time still > trying to get used to it. Sure there maybe alot of you out there that > have plenty of Solaris experience, but unfortunately I don't so I have to > do alot of RTFM'ing. Unix started off as a hobby for me, now it's almost > and obsession. ;) > > Luckily, I've been messing with BSD for so many years that it's easy for > me to find the answers that I need with a bit of digging and reading. > > I had a Canon ImageRunner printer that I wanted to print to via the > Solaris box, but I didn't know what rp name to use so I just cracked the > manuals open and found my answer. Now I'm happlly printing. Only took > me about 15-30 minutes to figure everything out (tried a few rp names before > I decided to read the manual). > > Now everyone knows that RTFM'ing is the way to go, and in times when > you're really stuck then you ask the Unix elders to give you a helping > hand. > > I bring up this subject because one of my coworkers never bothers to read > manuals or look up information via the Internet. And it bugs me, because > its me he's always coming to for answers. The one thing that bugs me the > most is when he asks me where the driver disks are for whatever peice of > hardware. I tell him, "DTFD!" When in doubt, just Download The F***** > Drivers. ;) It's not like we have quirky hardware here, most the stuff is > name brand so the drivers are totally available. *sigh* > > Well, I just had to get that off my chest. I feel better now. :) > > Joey > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 17 10:24:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow029o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C3CB37B447 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2001 10:24:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pcow029m.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Sat, 17 Nov 2001 18:24:03 +0000 Received: from fluoxetine.lan (unverified) by pcow029m.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Sat, 17 Nov 2001 18:24:03 +0000 Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 18:25:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew McKay X-Sender: andy@fluoxetine.lan To: Joey Garcia Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RTFM: it works!! In-Reply-To: <20011116150722.H1363-100000@we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Joey Garcia wrote: JG> I bring up this subject because one of my coworkers never bothers to read JG> manuals or look up information via the Internet. *sigh* - I spent most of Tuesday evening trying to help someone with windows networking. I declared my limited knowledge of windows networking (which amounts to getting win98 boxes to share FreeBSD served files and modem) beforehand but still the questions kept coming ('I've done that and it still doesn't work' 'does TCP/IP need to be binded to something?' 'what's DNS?' 'what's DHCP?') Eventually I signed off with 'try this and if it still doesn't work, search on the internet. there are a billion websites out there which know more about windows networking than I do' and went to the pub. I got back to a message saying 'that didn't work - what do I do now? At which point I kinda exploded. But we're talking again now :) -- Andrew McKay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 17 16:27:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D237937B405 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2001 16:27:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF47BD48 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2001 16:27:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26834 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2001 16:27:15 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fAI0PdL71871; Sat, 17 Nov 2001 16:25:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RTFM: it works!! References: <20011116150722.H1363-100000@we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 17 Nov 2001 16:25:37 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011116150722.H1363-100000@we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <7cg07c6i2m.07c@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 37 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joey Garcia writes: > I bring up this subject because one of my coworkers never bothers to read > manuals or look up information via the Internet. Why should she/he/it, if others will do it for her/him/it? (See P.S.) It's a time-honored (and prestige- and money-honored) thing to delegate one's work to others. That's what Management is all about. It's actually kind of a Good Thing. It tends to sort people by their Management/Technician Quotient so they're doing the right kind of job. I think you shouldn't complain unless you have given the person a good understanding of where you draw the line in receiving adequate remuneration for your efforts, whether that be from money, some expected return of favor, some sort of prestige in the eyes of the person, a boss, or fellow workers, or even from the Warm Glow of Pure Altruism. One should be sure that frequent questioners know one's thoughts on the subject before getting mad at them. For instance, on freebsd-questions, I see no (reasonable) occasion where someone should be blasted for asking stupid or lazy questions, even if done repeatedly. There may be (and usually is) someone that wants to answer the question. If they only seem to want to, but don't really, that should be their problem, not the questioner's. (Actually, answers ALWAYS want to or they wouldn't have answered, but I hope you got my point anyway.) Lazy mailing list questioners eventually tire of the process anyway. Sadly, in-person questioners usually must be informed of one's policy, tactfully at first, later by any means necessary. > Well, I just had to get that off my chest. I feel better now. :) I wish I was that confident. I always worry about having wasted my time and that of my readers. (That's not a crack at you or other chaters.) P.S. Don't answer that first question above -- I know plenty of reasons why he/she/it shouldn't ask. I was just trying to illustrate a point. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message