From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 0:34:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web21209.mail.yahoo.com (web21209.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 953C637B405 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 00:34:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011202083430.14337.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [213.70.109.123] by web21209.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 02 Dec 2001 00:34:30 PST Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 00:34:30 -0800 (PST) From: Trent Tobias Subject: BSD Companies To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Apart from iXsystems, are there any BSD consulting firms out there? Trent __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 3: 1:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB8937B416 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 03:01:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dg@localhost) by root.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id fB2AsT707353; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 02:54:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 02:54:28 -0800 From: David Greenman To: Trent Tobias Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Companies Message-ID: <20011202025428.J3957@nexus.root.com> References: <20011202083430.14337.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011202083430.14337.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com>; from tritttrott@yahoo.com on Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 12:34:30AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Apart from iXsystems, are there any BSD consulting >firms out there? Yes, my company TeraSolutions, Inc. offers some BSD support & consulting. -DG David Greenman Co-founder, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org President, TeraSolutions, Inc. - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 3: 9:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 607D737B42C for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 03:08:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fB2B8GR65210; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 03:08:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: RE: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 03:08:14 -0800 Message-ID: <000801c17b21$a2fb4d00$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <000c01c17a7c$4de06710$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:anthony@freebie.atkielski.com] >Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 7:25 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: chat@freebsd.org >Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) > > >Ted writes: > >> Sure there are many large companies that are >> competent and successful and didn't get that >> way by cheating. But we aren't talking about >> large successful companies in general, we are >> talking about a specific large company, Microsoft, >> which has been found guilty of anti-trust >> violations. > >Examination of the historical record I am not aware of any studies that anyone has done that make this claim. Care to cite some specific examples to support your point or are you just shooting from the hip? >reveals that Microsoft's >behavior, by and >large, is no different from that of other companies in similar positions of >market dominance. Even today, examples of similar behavior can be >found among >Microsoft's competitors, such as Sun and AOL. And these examples are? > There is nothing unique about >Microsoft, and it is neither more nor less honest and upstanding than its >competitors. > Absolute rubbish. There is something unique about Microsoft - they currently control something like 80% of desktop software for personal computers across the world. No other company has this distinction. >A poorly managed company will fail no matter what >monopolistic behaviors it undertakes, and a well managed company >will ultimately >succeed without ever resorting to such behaviors. > More rubbish. In a healthy competitive industry, a series of bad decisions will cause a company to fail. However once a company has achieved a monopoly then it can make the worst possible decisions and it will stay a monopoly, if the cost of entry into the market is extremely high. This is the case in software. The cost of entry into the desktop software market, particularly the office desktop software market, is simply too high because users take years and years to make the switch. Unlike the hardware market and unlike most industries, software never wears out. If the monopolistic software company in a market comes out with a new version that's WORSE than the prior one, users simply don't upgrade to it. While this does starve the monopolistic software company of cash somewhat, users will not replace existing software with new software from a competitor unless there's compelling need, such as a must-have feature. In the office desktop software that Microsoft is the monopoly in, most users don't have very high expectations for their software. Thus they rarely have any compelling need for new features. As a result the majority of them will tolerate poor version after poor version while they wait for the next version that's worth loading on their machine. Because of this behavior it's going to take years and years to dislodge Microsoft no matter how piss-poor their software is. Meanwhile the entire industry stagnates. > >See above. Many large companies do _not_ follow the law, but they are rarely >prosecuted for their violations. > Anthony, I find it difficult to determine what the point is exactly your trying to make because from e-mail to e-mail you issue contradictory statements that have no explanation included as to why they are contradictory. In several prior mails you made the claim: "...Some people just resent the fact that other persons/companies are more competent or successful than they are, and cannot accept the possibility that the success of the latter could be do to anything except some sort of cheating..." Now your claiming that the antitrust case against Microsoft is unusual because all of the other large companies cheat the same as they do. You can't have it both ways. Either cheating is endemic and Microsoft got to where they are because they cheated like everyone else does, or cheating is an aberration and the antitrust lawsuit proves that Microsoft is run by criminals. >It is abundantly >clear to even (and perhaps esepcially) Microsoft's competitors that >the success >of MS is almost entirely the consequence of sound business decisions, not >illegal or unethical maneuvering. > Once Microsoft attained monopoly status, all it's illegal and unethical manuevering is, as you say, unlikely to make much difference. So yes, most people would agree that Microsoft is maintaining it's monopoly by good or at least indifferent business decisions. But maintaining that monopoly and getting to that state are two very different things. Your confusing the continuing success of Microsoft with the success they had of reaching a monopoly status. Unethincal and illegal things that Microsoft did to attain that monopoly status were the main reason they got to that stuatus. It may not make any difference that Microsoft stole DOS today, because their continued existence is due to them being a monopoly, not because they hold the source code to DOS. But it did make a difference to get them to that position a long time ago. >> Microsoft was found guilty of breaking the law, >> they are beyond cheaters, they are criminals. > >No more so than any other large company. Indeed, the list of companies in >Microsoft's position that have similarly violated the law is quite >long. While >this hardly justifies Microsoft's own violations, it does make it clear that >they were not particularly exceptional, and so if one criticizes Microsoft on >the basis of those violations, one should also criticize all other companies >engaging in similar tactics. > And when did I say that I don't? > >Intel has been the subject of many similar actions ... just ask >Cyrix and AMD, >or the FTC. The FTC action was not a statement that Intel is a monopoly but rather that Intel cannot withhold technical specs of it's products as a way of demanding customers license back patents to it. These two cases are very different from each other. >Bill Gates made the mistake of spending too much time in the public eye, >attracting the envious regard of competitors and others whose own lack of >success seemed all the more distressing in light of the wealth and >achievement >of Microsoft and its founder. > Bill Gates spent his time in the public eye talking about Windows. Thus his "time in the public eye" was nothing more than advertising. I don't deny that Microsoft's competitors are envious of it's advertising (after all, Microsoft's media manipulation basically gives them free advertising) but the Justice Department isn't a competitor. >There have been many, many other companies that have gone through this. Most >such actions do not capture the media's sensationalistic attention, but that >does not mean that they are less important. AT&T, IBM, and Standard Oil have >been among the more visible targets of antitrust actions in the past. > >> If the statement that Microsoft cheated to get >> where they were was nothing more than a claim, then >> no evidence would have existed to convict them. > >And that is precisely the case. They were not convicted of any such >thing. The >Court found specific violations of the Sherman act in relation to >the placement >of Microsoft software on OEM machines, and with respect to the >installation of >Microsoft's browser. It did not find that Microsoft attained the position it >holds today through any illegal actions, although it speculates that--in the >specific case of browser dominance--Microsoft's violations _may_ have had an >influence on the outcome of things. > You can't be convicted unless your charged, and Microsoft wasn't charged with cheating to get where they were. But most of the individuals and companies that are convicted of crimes have a pattern of prior criminal behavior, although the behavior may not have got them "caught" previously. To argue that Microsoft was completely ethical throughout it's history, as you are doing, then once day decided to break the law and got caught, is extremely naieve. >However, my own opinion, which may well be better informed than that of the >Court, is that Netscape was so poorly managed, and wrote such poor software, >that it was doomed from the beginning. The company was built on >hype. It had >the first viable browser on the market, but that's the only reason >anyone used >it--once a better browser was available (and MSIE was a better >browser from 3.x >forward), it had nothing but inertia to keep it in business. Untrue. Corporations were required by the Netscape license to pay a fee to Netscape for the browser installs. Once Microsoft started releasing IE in a usable form, it came with a license that was free for corporate and personal use. Thus when given a choce between a free Microsoft-supplied browser, and a for-fee Netscape browser, everyone used the Microsoft one. Product dumping, in effect. >> They didn't lose some sort of popularity contest >> here - they lost a legal court case, a loss that >> even survived an appeal by them, in a court where >> they had unbelievable opportunity to disprove the >> claims, during a trial that was conducted according to >> defined and fair rules. > >You need to read the actual documents in question. You may be surprised. > I have read the court transcripts and it's shocking that Microsoft actually believed that the court would swallow some of the things they said during the trial. In fact the most surprising thing about the entire trial was the enormous level of disrespect that Microsoft showed to the court. You would think that they had more brains than that. They should have been crawling on their knees begging for leiency - once they got it and the case was closed then they could run around and brag about how stupid the trial was. But to do that beforehand was the ultimate in stupidity. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 3:41:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCBE237B417 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 03:41:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id fB2BdVo44323; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 11:39:31 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 11:39:31 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Trent Tobias Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Companies Message-ID: <20011202113931.N64111@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20011202083430.14337.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cs5saTBZh7UZl2eX" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011202083430.14337.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com>; from tritttrott@yahoo.com on Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 12:34:30AM -0800 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --cs5saTBZh7UZl2eX Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 12:34:30AM -0800, Trent Tobias wrote: > Apart from iXsystems, are there any BSD consulting > firms out there? http://www.freebsd.org/commercial/consulting.html N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --cs5saTBZh7UZl2eX Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjwKEvMACgkQk6gHZCw343XH4QCffsTgDcrJzKF3ABlUBq4QojiA Fc0AnA8BAzBCp2DgnEHIL0Scb+VKek3Y =ewm1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cs5saTBZh7UZl2eX-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 5:26:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0907A37B42B for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 05:25:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB2DPRx16911; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 14:25:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00bc01c17b34$d2bcd0f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , References: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org><040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org><003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org><005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org><008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15369.3159.548082.862287@guru.mired.org> <000f01c17ab1$1ac8c590$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011202002100.F18351@over-yonder.net> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 14:25:27 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew writes: > It gets me from Point A to Point B. That doesn't > mean that "better" would not be "better". It might be better, but you obviously don't need better, you only need good enough. And that's what you bought. > So, in other words, you have no desire to make > any task any easier/quicker/more efficient than > the absolute bare minimum you can concieve at > the moment. No. I have no desire to make any task any easier/quicker/more efficient than I want it to be. For example, Office 2000 probably has 1350 more features than the old copy of Office 97 that I run. It is probably a "better" product because of this. However, Office 97 is good enough for me, and since it is good enough for me, I don't need anything better. Some people--particularly the more rabid strains of computer geek--wonder how I can possibly survive with a five-year-old PC as my principal machine. I point out to them that this machine was the state of the art when I bought it, and blazingly fast. It was good enough. And since my needs today are the same, it is _still_ good enough, even though there are "better" machines out there (much faster, and so on). I originally bought a machine that would do everything I required, and since it did everything I required at high speed then, it still does everything I require at high speed today. But some geeks don't understand that the development of faster machines doesn't make my machine _slower_ or less adequate than it originally was. > See above mentioned "Bullkaka". Would you rather > drive a Ford Focus, or a BMW 750? I'll drive whichever is good enough for my requirements. I'm not very interested in motor vehicles, so that generally means whatever is inexpensive, safe, reliable, and economical. > Why would anybody want to drive a BMW? I've always wondered about that. > I run X on my workstation. Doesn't make it any > more 'insecure' than otherwise. Then why won't it run at secure_level=3? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 6: 6:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AEDE37B416 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 06:06:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB2E6Rx17009; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 15:06:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00c901c17b3a$8998b2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: References: <000801c17b21$a2fb4d00$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 15:06:26 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted writes: > I am not aware of any studies that anyone has > done that make this claim. That is apparent. > Care to cite some specific examples to support > your point or are you just shooting from the hip? I already have. High-profile cases included AT&T, IBM, and Standard Oil. However, less newsworthy antitrust actions are undertaken with much greater frequency. One reason Intel tries to keep such a low profile, for example, is that it is a very tempting target indeed for such actions. IBM used to issue small printed guides to its field employees with specific instructions on how to avoid conduct that might be construed as antitrust for the same reason. > And these examples are? Sun has been attempting, in the most ham-handed way imaginable, to simultaneously have its Java language declared an open standard while still retaining every conceivable right to its use. It seems to want a public-domain cash cow. Some people might construe this as an inappropriate attempt to maintain a dominant market position. AOL deliberately modified its instant messaging client so that it would not interoperate with MSN Mesenger, in order to prevent Microsoft from tapping the large AOL IM market. There are _many_ other examples of suspicious behavior on the part of many large companies with market dominance; these are just two examples that came immediately to mind. My personal opinion is that AOL is much more of a threat to consumers in this respect than is Microsoft at this time. However, AOL has very few competitors, and so there are few organizations to lobby legislators to push the DOJ to action. > There is something unique about Microsoft - they > currently control something like 80% of desktop > software for personal computers across the world. > No other company has this distinction. Obviously, it is impossible for more than one company to have 80% market share at one time. But 80% market share is not unusual. Look at Intel. Look at Apple (100% market share). > More rubbish. In a healthy competitive industry, > a series of bad decisions will cause a company to fail. Yes, which is why companies come and go so rapidly in IT. > However once a company has achieved a monopoly > then it can make the worst possible decisions > and it will stay a monopoly, if the cost of entry > into the market is extremely high. No company remains a monopoly by making poor decisions. Indeed, the utility of antitrust actions is often questionable, since they often do no more than slightly accelerate the inevitable. Companies that are poorly managed will lose their positions of dominance of their own accord, whereas well-managed companies will tend to retain dominance no matter what draconian measures are imposed upon them to diminish it. > This is the case in software. The cost of entry > into the desktop software market, particularly the > office desktop software market, is simply too high > because users take years and years to make the switch. Fortunately, there are 100,000 other software markets to choose from. And in most cases, there is a very dominant leading software package in each of them. It's ironic that you try to make an example of Office, since that is a product that people buy voluntarily--it is not normally preinstalled on a machine. > If the monopolistic software company in a market > comes out with a new version that's WORSE than the > prior one, users simply don't upgrade to it. Yes, that is something that computer software companies are discovering, as the PC market matures and fills with users who are not geeks and will not upgrade just for the sake of upgrading. We are seeing a bit of that beginning with Windows XP. Even geeks don't always upgrade. I'm still running Windows NT 4.0 SP4, as I have been for years. > While this does starve the monopolistic software > company of cash somewhat, users will not replace > existing software with new software from a competitor > unless there's compelling need, such as a must= > have feature. It doesn't matter, since if they don't upgrade, even the monopolistic software company will go out of business. It's a lot worse than just being "somewhat starved of cash"--it's bankruptcy. > In the office desktop software that Microsoft > is the monopoly in, most users don't have very > high expectations for their software. Yes. The current versions of Office are fine for them, as were all of the preceding versions. > As a result the majority of them will tolerate > poor version after poor version while they wait > for the next version that's worth loading on > their machine. Yes. > Because of this behavior it's going to take years > and years to dislodge Microsoft no matter how > piss-poor their software is. Try to think things through a little further. If nobody is buying version after version, Microsoft will be gone in pretty short order. The company depends for survival on the selling of frequent upgrades. All PC software companies do. Just having a large user base with Microsoft software installed is useless to Microsoft, if they refuse to continually upgrade. > Meanwhile the entire industry stagnates. The entire industry of what? Nobody cares about the office-automation industry. Everyone just installs a copy of Office and works with that. Just as in professional publishing, everyone installs a copy of Quark XPress and works with that. > Anthony, I find it difficult to determine what > the point is exactly your trying to make because > from e-mail to e-mail you issue contradictory > statements that have no explanation included > as to why they are contradictory. You don't appear to be reading my posts carefully. They are not contradictory. > In several prior mails you made the claim: > > "...Some people just resent the fact that other > persons/companies are more competent or successful > than they are, and cannot accept the possibility > that the success of the latter could be do to > anything except some sort of cheating..." I used the exact same wording in "several" prior posts? Anyway, that's true. It's a sort of sour-grapes effect. Many people with fragile egos cannot believe that someone else can do it better. It's like students who assume that anyone who gets a perfect score on a test was cheating, or that anyone who gets a perfect grade in a class slept with the professor. > Now your claiming that the antitrust case against > Microsoft is unusual because all of the other large > companies cheat the same as they do. It's unusually visible, compare to most antitrust cases, and it is also unusual in that such behavior usually goes unpunished, in all large companies in similar positions. Microsoft has a lot of enemies, and they pressed hard for the government to take some sort of action. > You can't have it both ways. Yes, I can. See below. > Either cheating is endemic and Microsoft got to > where they are because they cheated like everyone > else does ... The latter does not follow from the former. Many companies cheat, but that still doesn't normally have any effect on their long-term success. Cheating will not help an incompetent company to retain market dominance over more than the extreme short term. > ... or cheating is an aberration and the antitrust > lawsuit proves that Microsoft is run by criminals. Such strong emotions! How did your hatred of Microsoft develop? I've always wondered how people come to adopt such extreme attitudes. > Once Microsoft attained monopoly status, all it's > illegal and unethical manuevering is, as you say, > unlikely to make much difference. Before it attained monopoly status, the illegal maneuvering to which you allude would not have been illegal (monopoly status is required for the violations of the Sherman Act of which Microsoft was found guilty). And after attaining that status, it would not have made much difference, as you observe. So it doesn't really matter. > But maintaining that monopoly and getting to that > state are two very different things. Read the decisions of the Court. The actions that violated the Sherman Act were considered illegal _because_ Microsoft was a monopoly in specific markets; therefore those actions would not have worked to _establish_ Microsoft as a monopoly. You appear to be saying that such actions brought Microsoft to that state, but that just isn't so. > It may not make any difference that Microsoft > stole DOS today ... I agree. > ... their continued existence is due to them being > a monopoly ... No, their continued existence is a consequence of making sound business decisions. In your crusade against the company, however, you've probably not noticed that the golden age of Microsoft came and went some years ago. While I expect Microsoft to be a major market power for some years to come, I also expect that the very gradual decline now beginning will continue, until the company makes some serious mistakes and dramatically loses market share. This happens to virtually all companies sooner or later, except very diversified and very well-managed companies, such as General Electric. > And when did I say that I don't? Your intensely emotional reaction to Microsoft's perceived evil is rather dramatically obvious in your posts. Intel is likely to be just as guilty as Microsoft, but you do not rant against it. The same is true for AOL, and Apple. > The FTC action was not a statement that Intel > is a monopoly but rather that Intel cannot withhold > technical specs of it's products as a way of > demanding customers license back patents to it. Now, why would Intel do that? What is the value to customers of that action? > Bill Gates spent his time in the public eye talking > about Windows. That was his biggest mistake. When you become well-known and popular, you develop lots of enemies. > Thus his "time in the public eye" was nothing > more than advertising. No, it was a serious mistake made by a confirmed geek who just didn't understand certain principles of public relations. Now he is suffering the consequences. > You can't be convicted unless your charged, > and Microsoft wasn't charged with cheating > to get where they were. Then your claim that they were convicted is baseless. > To argue that Microsoft was completely ethical > throughout it's history, as you are doing, then > once day decided to break the law and got caught, > is extremely naieve. No large company is completely ethical, because it is impossible to ensure the ethical behavior of thousands of individual employees. But painting Microsoft or any other one company as a Great Satan is the acme of naïveté. > Corporations were required by the Netscape license > to pay a fee to Netscape for the browser installs. All the more reason to install MSIE, which is free. Not to mention that MSIE is technically superior to Netscape. Additionally, unlike Netscape, MSIE can be heavily customized and branded, and this was hugely important to many companies using or redistributing it. > Thus when given a choce between a free Microsoft= > supplied browser, and a for-fee Netscape browser, > everyone used the Microsoft one. Product dumping, > in effect. So where is the harm to the consumer? A good browser that you must pay for, or a better browser for free. Looks like the consumer got a pretty good deal. > I have read the court transcripts and it's shocking > that Microsoft actually believed that the court > would swallow some of the things they said during > the trial. Read the decisions, not the transcripts. > In fact the most surprising thing about the > entire trial was the enormous level of disrespect > that Microsoft showed to the court. You would > think that they had more brains than that. People at Microsoft are geeks for the most part. That's what got them into this mess in the first place. They are good technicians, but they don't realize when they are making enemies. And Bill Gates was among the most clueless of the lot. If he and his company had kept a lower profile, his competitors would have never developed their irrational hatred of Microsoft. > They should have been crawling on their knees > begging for leiency - once they got it and the > case was closed then they could run around and > brag about how stupid the trial was. But > to do that beforehand was the ultimate in > stupidity. Over the long term, it didn't really matter, and I think Microsoft's lawyers realized that. Antitrust proceedings in a fast-moving field like IT tend not to have significant effects on a company's business. By the time a decision is handed down, the entire industry has moved on. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 9:29:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 54FEE37B416 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 09:29:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 86597 invoked by uid 100); 2 Dec 2001 17:29:11 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15370.25831.254244.363910@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 11:29:11 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <000f01c17ab1$1ac8c590$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org> <040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org> <003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org> <005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org> <008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15369.3159.548082.862287@guru.mired.org> <000f01c17ab1$1ac8c590$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > [Microsoft's] technology is just barely better than > > "good enough" in almost every category. As such, > > there's usually better technology available from > > companies that don't have the marketing smarts that > > MS has. > But that doesn't matter. Either something is good enough, or it's not. If it > _is_ good enough, then, by definition, you will not profit from anything that is > better. That's not true. Have you ever heard the phrase "The good is the enemy of the best"? It's easy to show that people want improvements on software that is "good enough" to use. Windows 3 was clearly good enough for most people, but they still stood in line at midnight to get Windows 95 - which was better. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 9:38: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2422637B405 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 09:37:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 86746 invoked by uid 100); 2 Dec 2001 17:37:55 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15370.26355.292711.525268@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 11:37:55 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , , "Ted Mittelstaedt" , Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <002501c17ab3$07f0f0d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <000301c17a40$8fc78dc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <010d01c17a44$98b491e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C08A204.3CA7014C@mindspring.com> <002e01c17a5f$f2b34040$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <000c01c17a7c$4de06710$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15369.53.739857.967952@guru.mired.org> <000a01c17ab0$266fabd0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15369.20345.689585.495352@guru.mired.org> <002501c17ab3$07f0f0d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > Yes, but I'm buying Intel products. MS's business > > practices cost me money even though I *don't* buy > > their products. > And Intel's don't? That's not what Cyrix or AMD would say. Could you provide something to back that system up? I've priced name brand hardware both with and without MS software, and the identical hardware was more expensive without the MS software - and involved me doing more work to use it. Worse yet, I couldn't get it without an MS mouse, even though I'd hate to use the thing. Or are you referring to Cyrix and AMD paying licensing fees to Intel? In that case, I *am* buying something from intel - whatever was licensed from them. In the MS case, *nothing* from MS was in the system - and it cost more money. > > That's sort of like saying that the spread of > > Christianity during the middle ages has no influence > > on it's popularity today. > Windows was a completely different environment from MS-DOS, and initially Apple > did windows better than Microsoft. There were many chances for destiny to shift > in the direction of some other company, but thanks to good decisions by > Microsoft and egregiously poor decisions on the part of certain other companies > (such as A****), Microsoft retained the lead. Windows may have been a completely different environment from MS-DOS, but it would run MS-DOS software. That's made it "good enough" to be worth using for MS-DOS users, whereas options that didn't do that weren't. That's the proprietary trap again. > > Being the default OS on the first desktop computer > > acceptable to the IT industry is hardly "trivial". > Nobody even remembers CP/M. I've already mentioned it on this thread, so that's not true. I remember it. I also remember MP/M, OS/9 and Flex. However, none of those were acceptable to the IT industry, as they came from "fly-by-night" companies that you couldn't depend on being around next year. > > They have continued to make good decisions > > on a regular enough basis to have not lost > > that dominance. > In other words, their initial decisions concerning MS-DOS did _not_ determine > their success for eternity, in direct contrast to what you assert above. No, their initial decisions concerning IBM were essential to creating the environment that made them what they are. If they didn't own what IBM was going to turn into the defacto standard desktop OS for business, they'd still be a small company turning out mediocre (aka "good enough") language processors. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 10:18:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AA0037B405 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 10:18:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB2II6x17626; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:18:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00dd01c17b5d$b10b0930$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org><040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org><003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org><005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org><008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15369.3159.548082.862287@guru.mired.org><000f01c17ab1$1ac8c590$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15370.25831.254244.363910@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:18:06 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > Windows 3 was clearly good enough for most > people, but they still stood in line at midnight > to get Windows 95 - which was better. Those for whom Windows 3 was good enough were not standing in line. They never bought Windows 95 at all. The reason you saw long lines is that there were many people for whom Windows 3 was _not_ good enough. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 10:25:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0900037B405 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 10:25:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fB2IOrE97563; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:24:53 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <00e601c17b5e$a3af1ff0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , , "Ted Mittelstaedt" , References: <000301c17a40$8fc78dc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com><010d01c17a44$98b491e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C08A204.3CA7014C@mindspring.com><002e01c17a5f$f2b34040$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com><000c01c17a7c$4de06710$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15369.53.739857.967952@guru.mired.org><000a01c17ab0$266fabd0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15369.20345.689585.495352@guru.mired.org><002501c17ab3$07f0f0d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15370.26355.292711.525268@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:24:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > I've priced name brand hardware both with > and without MS software, and the identical > hardware was more expensive without the > MS software - and involved me doing more > work to use it. So why didn't you just buy it with the MS software, and then remove the MS software? You say that the hardware was identical, after all. I bought my FreeBSD with Windows Me preinstalled. The first thing I did was format the disk, erasing all trace of Windows Me, and I threw the CDs and "official Microsoft certificate" away, since I had no plans to use them. I don't know if the identical hardware was available without Windows Me--I suspect not--but it really doesn't matter, as Windows Me is only worth a small fraction of the overall price of the system. > Worse yet, I couldn't get it without an MS > mouse, even though I'd hate to use the thing. I put the mouse and keyboad in a closet, with all the other mice and keyboards I've collected over the years. I use a switch to move keyboard and mouse between my two systems (I have two separate monitors, though, as I like to keep an eye on both machines). > In the MS case, *nothing* from MS was in the > system - and it cost more money. Then buy the system _with_ the MS stuff, and then remove it. That's the logical solution. > Windows may have been a completely different > environment from MS-DOS, but it would run MS-DOS > software. That's made it "good enough" to be > worth using for MS-DOS users, whereas options > that didn't do that weren't. That's the proprietary > trap again. Didn't OS/2 run MS-DOS programs? > However, none of those were acceptable to the > IT industry, as they came from "fly-by-night" > companies that you couldn't depend on being > around next year. That is also what hurts open-source software. Large corporations are usually extremely chary of betting millions on software written by volunteers, unless they have an in-house staff that can maintain the software if necessary. > If they didn't own what IBM was going to turn into > the defacto standard desktop OS for business, they'd > still be a small company turning out mediocre (aka > "good enough") language processors. I seriously doubt that. They would have followed the money in any case. That's what made them successful. And the fact that they are no longer doing that to the same extent will be part of their downfall, too. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 11:24:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A48137B405 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 11:24:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a136.otenet.gr [212.205.215.136]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fB2JO8m10641; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:24:08 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB2JOIj04399; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:24:18 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:24:17 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Message-ID: <20011202192417.GA1559@hades.hell.gr> References: <15370.26355.292711.525268@guru.mired.org> <00e601c17b5e$a3af1ff0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00e601c17b5e$a3af1ff0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-12-02 19:24:44, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Mike writes: > > In the MS case, *nothing* from MS was in the > > system - and it cost more money. > > Then buy the system _with_ the MS stuff, and then remove it. That's the logical > solution. No, it's not a logical solution, because I don't want to pay for software I'm not going to use. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 11:33: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 091F637B417 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 11:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 88556 invoked by uid 100); 2 Dec 2001 19:32:51 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15370.33251.168127.204747@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 13:32:51 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , Cc: , "Ted Mittelstaedt" , Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <00e601c17b5e$a3af1ff0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org> <040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org> <003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org> <005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org> <008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15369.3159.548082.862287@guru.mired.org> <000f01c17ab1$1ac8c590$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15370.25831.254244.363910@guru.mired.org> <00dd01c17b5d$b10b0930$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <000301c17a40$8fc78dc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <010d01c17a44$98b491e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C08A204.3CA7014C@mindspring.com> <002e01c17a5f$f2b34040$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <000c01c17a7c$4de06710$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15369.53.739857.967952@guru.mired.org> <000a01c17ab0$266fabd0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15369.20345.689585.495352@guru.mired.org> <002501c17ab3$07f0f0d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15370.26355.292711.525268@guru.mired.org> <00e601c17b5e$a3af1ff0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > I've priced name brand hardware both with > > and without MS software, and the identical > > hardware was more expensive without the > > MS software - and involved me doing more > > work to use it. > So why didn't you just buy it with the MS software, and then remove the MS > software? You say that the hardware was identical, after all. Because I don't see the point in paying for software I'm not going to use. This strange state of affairs is the result of MS's illegal and unethical licensing practice. > > Windows may have been a completely different > > environment from MS-DOS, but it would run MS-DOS > > software. That's made it "good enough" to be > > worth using for MS-DOS users, whereas options > > that didn't do that weren't. That's the proprietary > > trap again. > Didn't OS/2 run MS-DOS programs? True. MS outmaneuvered IBM a second time on that one. But we were discussing why Apple didn't go anywhere, and the Mac didn't run MS-DOS programs. > > If they didn't own what IBM was going to turn into > > the defacto standard desktop OS for business, they'd > > still be a small company turning out mediocre (aka > > "good enough") language processors. > I seriously doubt that. They would have followed the money in any case. That's > what made them successful. And the fact that they are no longer doing that to > the same extent will be part of their downfall, too. Ok, they might have been a large company turning out mediocre software, instead of being a mammoth company turning out mediocre software. Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > Windows 3 was clearly good enough for most > > people, but they still stood in line at midnight > > to get Windows 95 - which was better. > The reason you saw long lines is that there were many people for whom Windows 3 > was _not_ good enough. Then why were they using it? Anyone who wasn't using Windows 3 wasn't standing in line, either. For those people standing in line, it was clearly good enough - otherwise they would have dropped it before 95 came out. Those were the people who wanted better - which is why they were standing in line. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 14:15:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A28237B405 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 14:15:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB2MESx18145; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:14:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <010401c17b7e$bb7e31f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , References: <15370.26355.292711.525268@guru.mired.org> <00e601c17b5e$a3af1ff0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011202192417.GA1559@hades.hell.gr> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:14:28 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos writes: > No, it's not a logical solution, because I > don't want to pay for software I'm not going > to use. That is not logical. Recall that Mike said that the system cost more without MS software than with it, given identical hardware. Therefore the lowest-cost solution is to buy the system with the MS software, then remove the software. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 14:21: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE3837B442 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 14:20:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB2MKWx18166; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:20:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <010701c17b7f$8fa060c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: , "Ted Mittelstaedt" , References: <15370.33251.168127.204747@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:20:32 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > Because I don't see the point in paying for software > I'm not going to use. I don't see the point in paying more than you have to for a system just because you resent Microsoft. > This strange state of affairs is the result of > MS's illegal and unethical licensing practice. Why do you say that? > True. MS outmaneuvered IBM a second time on that > one. MS outmaneuvers a lot of companies a lot of the time. That's how a company gets to be number one. No cheating required. > But we were discussing why Apple didn't go > anywhere, and the Mac didn't run MS-DOS > programs. If Apple had been managed like Microsoft, Steve would have found a way to make MS-DOS programs run on the Mac. But Apple was managed in a very different, far less rational way, and providing MS-DOS support on the Mac would have "tainted" the Mac's sacred purity, angering the highly emotional user base that tends to prefer the Mac. Mac users are kind of like you in their resentment for Microsoft, it seems, and would rather lose big themselves in order to inflict some imaginary injury on MS. They pay too much for their computers, too. > Ok, they might have been a large company turning > out mediocre software, instead of being a mammoth > company turning out mediocre software. Very few companies do _not_ turn out mediocre software. Can you think of any? Especially any with more than 25 employees? > Then why were they using it? Because prior to Windows 95, there was nothing else. > For those people standing in line, it was > clearly good enough - otherwise they would > have dropped it before 95 came out. Not so. They may have had no choice. Some applications ran only on Windows, even back then. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 14:54:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D72CD37B417 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 14:54:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 91231 invoked by uid 100); 2 Dec 2001 22:54:37 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15370.45357.556794.821789@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:54:37 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: , "Ted Mittelstaedt" , Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <010701c17b7f$8fa060c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15370.33251.168127.204747@guru.mired.org> <010701c17b7f$8fa060c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > Because I don't see the point in paying for software > > I'm not going to use. > I don't see the point in paying more than you have to for a system just because > you resent Microsoft. I don't resent Microsoft. I think they produce shitty software, and have since I first encountered it on CP/M. I didn't pay more than I had to for the system, I found a vendor that hadn't cuat that particular deal. > > This strange state of affairs is the result of > > MS's illegal and unethical licensing practice. > Why do you say that? Because that's basically what the judge said in his findings in the most recent anti-trust case. MS's licensing practices - requiring that every complete system sell with an OS of theirs - was a prime example of MS exercising their monopoly position. > > But we were discussing why Apple didn't go > > anywhere, and the Mac didn't run MS-DOS > > programs. > If Apple had been managed like Microsoft, Steve would have found a way to make > MS-DOS programs run on the Mac. But Apple was managed in a very different, far > less rational way, and providing MS-DOS support on the Mac would have "tainted" > the Mac's sacred purity, angering the highly emotional user base that tends to > prefer the Mac. Mac users are kind of like you in their resentment for > Microsoft, it seems, and would rather lose big themselves in order to inflict > some imaginary injury on MS. They pay too much for their computers, too. First, I don't resent MS. I resent their repeated use of unethical business tactics. Considering that you've already agreed that Windows isn't suitable for desktop use, it would seem that Apple made the right technical decision, but the wrong business decision. > > Ok, they might have been a large company turning > > out mediocre software, instead of being a mammoth > > company turning out mediocre software. > Very few companies do _not_ turn out mediocre software. Can you think of any? > Especially any with more than 25 employees? Adobe and Perforce come to mind without thought. I'm not sure Perforce has more than 25 employees, though. I can certainly come up with a longer list if I think about it some. > > Then why were they using it? > Because prior to Windows 95, there was nothing else. Stated with your usual accuracy. Prior to Windows 95, at desktop prices, both the Mac and the Amiga were availabe. I don't recall if the Atari ST died before then or not. OS/9 was available, and is still around for those who want it. There were at least two alternative to Windows to multitask on top of DOS like Windows did. If Windows 3.0 wasn't good enough, there were lots of options. It was good enough to do the job, but people wanted better things. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 15: 4: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D185637B417 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 15:03:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB2N3ax18332; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 00:03:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <015101c17b85$93b2a5f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: , "Ted Mittelstaedt" , References: <15370.33251.168127.204747@guru.mired.org><010701c17b7f$8fa060c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15370.45357.556794.821789@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 00:03:36 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > I don't resent Microsoft. I think they produce > shitty software, and have since I first encountered > it on CP/M. Virtually _all_ PC software is garbage, if you are accustomed to truly reliable, stable software. Microsoft software is actually more stable than average, in my experience. Adobe writes pretty solid stuff, too (relatively speaking). Many lesser companies write pure junk, and somehow manage to sell it. I think it is because most PC users (and even PC professionals) have no clue as to what constitutes a truly stable, reliable computer system, and just assume that bugs, errors, and crashes are normal for any computer. It's a good thing that NASA never had to recruit from this pool of misled individuals, or most of the Apollo program would have ended in smoking heaps on the launch pads. > I didn't pay more than I had to for the system, > I found a vendor that hadn't cuat that particular > deal. So much for the monopoly practices, eh? > Because that's basically what the judge said > in his findings in the most recent anti-trust > case. MS's licensing practices - requiring that > every complete system sell with an OS of theirs > - was a prime example of MS exercising their > monopoly position. A prime example ... or the only example? One of the problems for the plaintiffs in that case is that Microsoft's competitors were extremely hard pressed to actually produce any solid evidence to back up many of their accusations. They managed to produce enough to convince a severely biased judge, however. > First, I don't resent MS. I resent their repeated > use of unethical business tactics. But there is no such repeated use. I hear people complain about it, but the hard evidence is never there. I don't think that even 0.1% of the complaints I've ever heard about Microsoft have any documentation backing them up at all. It's just groups of young males all jumping on the same bandwagon. > Considering that you've already agreed that > Windows isn't suitable for desktop use, it > would seem that Apple made the right technical > decision, but the wrong business decision. You have to make the right _business_ decisions to remain in _business_. > Adobe and Perforce come to mind without thought. Adobe is no better than Microsoft. I have no experience with Perforce. > Stated with your usual accuracy. Prior to > Windows 95, at desktop prices, both the Mac > and the Amiga were availabe. Neither of them ran Windows applications. > There were at least two alternative to > Windows to multitask on top of DOS like > Windows did. There were _no_ alternatives, if you wanted to run the already large selection of Windows-only applications that were available. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 16:52:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C29DB37B42B for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:52:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 92258 invoked by uid 100); 3 Dec 2001 00:52:21 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15370.52421.519402.395812@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 18:52:21 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: , "Ted Mittelstaedt" , Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <015101c17b85$93b2a5f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15370.33251.168127.204747@guru.mired.org> <010701c17b7f$8fa060c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15370.45357.556794.821789@guru.mired.org> <015101c17b85$93b2a5f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > > I don't resent Microsoft. I think they produce > > shitty software, and have since I first encountered > > it on CP/M. > Virtually _all_ PC software is garbage, if you are accustomed to truly reliable, > stable software. Microsoft software is actually more stable than average, in my > experience. Adobe writes pretty solid stuff, too (relatively speaking). Many > lesser companies write pure junk, and somehow manage to sell it. I think it is > because most PC users (and even PC professionals) have no clue as to what > constitutes a truly stable, reliable computer system, and just assume that bugs, > errors, and crashes are normal for any computer. I agree with that. The difference between us is that I lay the blame on MS, not the vendors of the junk. That's because MS was providing an OS that dealt with misbehaving applications by crashing. If they had instead provided an OS that caught such things and terminated them with the prejudice they deservied, people wouldn't accept the trash they do on their desktop. > > I didn't pay more than I had to for the system, > > I found a vendor that hadn't cut that particular > > deal. > So much for the monopoly practices, eh? Nope. MS's monopoly practices basically mean I can't buy mass market computers without MS pocketing money on the deal. My choices are to pay the microsoft tax, buy mass market and pay even more than the MS task, or buy parts and use my time putting them together. The latter saves some money, so I put up with it. I'd rather be able to walk in and say "Give me this one, hold the OS". MS's monopoly practices have made that impossible. Also, should someone want an MS OS from that vendor - which they did sell - the vendor would have to charge them more than they would have if they weren't willing to sell me a box with Unix on it. > > Because that's basically what the judge said > > in his findings in the most recent anti-trust > > case. MS's licensing practices - requiring that > > every complete system sell with an OS of theirs > > - was a prime example of MS exercising their > > monopoly position. > A prime example ... or the only example? No, just a prime example. There were a number of others. One of my favorites was MS changing their licensing to require vendors to use the MS-provided shell in order to kill a Netscape product line and maintain control of the desktop. HP had an internally developed shell they had to stop shipping because of that, after which their support calls increased by a significant and measurable percentage. > > First, I don't resent MS. I resent their repeated > > use of unethical business tactics. > But there is no such repeated use. I hear people complain about it, but the > hard evidence is never there. I don't think that even 0.1% of the complaints > I've ever heard about Microsoft have any documentation backing them up at all. Well, I've just produced two examples, and there are other in the Jackson findings. A third would be the Digital Research case, where they were caught putting code in 3.0 that detected the underlying DOS and failed unless it was theirs. The Halloween documents make some interesting reading as well. You might STFW if you haven't read them. > It's just groups of young males all jumping on the same bandwagon. If you think I'm a young male, you haven't been paying attention. > > Adobe and Perforce come to mind without thought. > Adobe is no better than Microsoft. I have no experience with Perforce. That's not my experience with MS and Adobe. Admittedly, I haven't dealt with Adobe's Windows products, and I've avoided MS's since the CP/M days because of the shoddiness of the products they were providing at that time. > > There were at least two alternative to > > Windows to multitask on top of DOS like > > Windows did. > There were _no_ alternatives, if you wanted to run the already large selection > of Windows-only applications that were available. You're asserting that people were using a product to do a job, which on the face of it means that the product is good enough to do the job. You then turn around and say the product wasn't good enough to do the job, which means they couldn't have been using it to do the job. You can't have it both ways. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 17:28:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5144937B416 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 17:28:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB31SRx76282; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 02:28:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <015e01c17b99$cf382320$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: , "Ted Mittelstaedt" , References: <15370.33251.168127.204747@guru.mired.org><010701c17b7f$8fa060c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15370.45357.556794.821789@guru.mired.org><015101c17b85$93b2a5f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15370.52421.519402.395812@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 02:28:26 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > The difference between us is that I lay the > blame on MS, not the vendors of the junk. There is nothing unique about Microsoft that would make it more responsible than any other vendor. The phenomenon of poor software predates MS, and has always been a problem on the PC platform. > That's because MS was providing an OS that > dealt with misbehaving applications by > crashing. All early PC operating systems dealt with misbehaving applications that way. The machine was essentially given over to the currently running program, and so it was very easy for an application to crash the system. There was no choice about this on early Intel processors. > If they had instead provided an OS that caught > such things and terminated them with the prejudice > they deservied, people wouldn't accept the trash > they do on their desktop. Early PC hardware did not permit this. Any code with control of the processor had control of the system. > MS's monopoly practices basically mean I can't > buy mass market computers without MS pocketing > money on the deal. A lot of people pocket money on every PC purchased, not just Microsoft. The only difference is that you resent Microsoft more than the others. > I'd rather be able to walk in and say "Give me > this one, hold the OS". MS's monopoly practices have > made that impossible. I've never cared. I can remove the preinstalled OS and install whatever I want. In fact, that's what I routinely do when purchasing a new PC--I never run the preinstalled stuff. > Also, should someone want an MS OS from that > vendor - which they did sell - the vendor would > have to charge them more than they would have > if they weren't willing to sell me a box with > Unix on it. That's because Microsoft software is not free (usually). > If you think I'm a young male, you haven't been > paying attention. It's a function of psychology, not chronological age (or, sometimes, even gender). > That's not my experience with MS and Adobe. It is my experience. > Admittedly, I haven't dealt with Adobe's Windows > products ... I use a half-dozen of them. > ... and I've avoided MS's since the CP/M days because > of the shoddiness of the products they were providing > at that time. I use MS products every day. Hmm. > You're asserting that people were using a product > to do a job ... That's why most people bought PCs. > ... which on the face of it means that the product > is good enough to do the job. Obviously. > You then turn around and say the product wasn't > good enough to do the job, which means they couldn't > have been using it to do the job. Where did I say that? The product wasn't good enough to satisfy them, but it was good enough to do the job, and there was no alternative. So they used it, got the job done, and when something better came along, they upgraded to that. > You can't have it both ways. See above. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 18:10:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E882337B421 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 18:10:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 93795 invoked by uid 100); 3 Dec 2001 02:10:17 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15370.57096.970547.872077@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:10:16 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: , "Ted Mittelstaedt" , Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <015e01c17b99$cf382320$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15370.33251.168127.204747@guru.mired.org> <010701c17b7f$8fa060c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15370.45357.556794.821789@guru.mired.org> <015101c17b85$93b2a5f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15370.52421.519402.395812@guru.mired.org> <015e01c17b99$cf382320$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > The difference between us is that I lay the > > blame on MS, not the vendors of the junk. > There is nothing unique about Microsoft that would make it more responsible than > any other vendor. The phenomenon of poor software predates MS, and has always > been a problem on the PC platform. If by "PC platform" you mean PC's running MS, then they couldn't predate MS. If by "PC" platform you mean arbitrary desktop machines, then there were OP's available that didn't have the problems that OS gave us. > > That's because MS was providing an OS that > > dealt with misbehaving applications by > > crashing. > All early PC operating systems dealt with misbehaving applications that way. > The machine was essentially given over to the currently running program, and so > it was very easy for an application to crash the system. There was no choice > about this on early Intel processors. I take it you're not familiar with OS/9, OS/1, or MARC? > > If they had instead provided an OS that caught > > such things and terminated them with the prejudice > > they deservied, people wouldn't accept the trash > > they do on their desktop. > Early PC hardware did not permit this. Any code with control of the processor > had control of the system. By the time Windows 3.0 came out, this was no longer true. MS could have fixed it with Windows 3.0. > > MS's monopoly practices basically mean I can't > > buy mass market computers without MS pocketing > > money on the deal. > A lot of people pocket money on every PC purchased, not just Microsoft. The > only difference is that you resent Microsoft more than the others. I resent anyone who pockets money when nothing of theirs went into the product I'm going to use. The only company I know of for which that is true is MS. If you provide other examples, I'll resent them as well. > > I'd rather be able to walk in and say "Give me > > this one, hold the OS". MS's monopoly practices have > > made that impossible. > I've never cared. I can remove the preinstalled OS and install whatever I want. > In fact, that's what I routinely do when purchasing a new PC--I never run the > preinstalled stuff. Are you buying licenses for all of the Windows machines that you're changing the OS on? > > Also, should someone want an MS OS from that > > vendor - which they did sell - the vendor would > > have to charge them more than they would have > > if they weren't willing to sell me a box with > > Unix on it. > That's because Microsoft software is not free (usually). You misunderstand. The fact that the vendor is willing to sell me a box with Unix installed means they have to charge someone who wants a box with NT - just for example - installed than they would charge them if they wouldn't sell me a box with Unix on it. > > You then turn around and say the product wasn't > > good enough to do the job, which means they couldn't > > have been using it to do the job. > Where did I say that? Right here: > > Windows 3 was clearly good enough for most > > people, but they still stood in line at midnight > > to get Windows 95 - which was better. > > The reason you saw long lines is that there were many people for whom Windows 3 > was _not_ good enough. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 19:18:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail29.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail29.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77C2137B419 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:18:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([65.8.240.251]) by femail29.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20011203031831.DPYU2988.femail29.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:18:31 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011202215531.018f3d80@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 22:18:09 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <15369.3159.548082.862287@guru.mired.org> References: <008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org> <040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org> <003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org> <005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org> <008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:59 AM 12/1/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > That's because once you get past "good enough," technology doesn't matter > > (otherwise it wouldn't be good enough, would it?). > >That's a one-sentence summary of my "good enough is best" paper. MS is >willing to keep trying until they reach "good enough", and has >excellent marketing. Their technology is just barely better than "good >enough" in almost every category. As such, there's usually better >technology available from companies that don't have the marketing >smarts that MS has. This is one of the things that never ceases to amaze me about this list--how easily the people on here forget that YOU (WE) ARE NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF MASS-MARKET COMPUTER USERS. If we were, we wouldn't be here now. Other people don't spend time poring over technical specifications to see which one is best suited to their needs. Most people want compatibility and easy access to software and support. They want to be able to easily walk into a store and purchase software or buy it online. They want to know that the nifty new MP3/video player that they saw at a friend's house will work on their system too. They want to be able to buy hardware blindly without scouring the box for that obscure label on the bottom that says "Works on Windows 95/98/Me/2000/XP and [insert your favorite OS here]." Compatibility, backwards and forwards, is a major consideration for most users. Crashes are an inconvenience at best, not a mission-critical disaster. For most people, the crash means the you have to reboot and re-establish your dialup connection to finish reading your e-mail. Your download was interrupted? It sucks, but nobody has lost anything because of it. For many of you, a crash on the wrong system could mean thousands of dollars in lost productivity, the loss of your job, or even a ruined career. Trust all that to Windows? Hell no. But for casual web-browsing and playing MP3s, it's the bomb. I don't envy Microsoft for having to maintain the legacy that it does. Believe me, there's a reason that every version of Windows to date will still run the same DOS software that existed nearly 20 years ago. And it ain't because anybody thinks that software had such high technical merit. Once you've got customers on your team, you can't change the game on them mid-stream or you run the risk of losing them. Even the FreeBSD/Linux developers realize this. Hell, people on this list don't even want the kernel *interfaces* to change because they're busy doing things in the source code. But they don't want the innovations to stop either. Maintaining the balance between the two is hard, especially if you've got hundreds of millions of customers to whom you're beholden. I've often said that technologically superior products are doomed to fail in the marketplace because they tend to rely on their superior technology as incentive for people to buy them. I think OS/2 is a prime example of this. While IBM was busy telling people how many wonderful technical features they had implemented, Microsoft was out getting hardware vendors and developers on their team. The applications and the customers followed naturally. Even IBM's own divisions wouldn't pre-load OS/2 on their PCs after Windows really picked up steam. I do training on Windows computers. And my students are always very interested when I tell them about the wonderful things UNIX can do, things that it has done for decades that Windows is only now starting to do. And it never fails to impress them. But when it's all over and they're ready to play a game or download a new streaming media player, those technical considerations all crumble to naught in the face of compatibility. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 19:36:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2824737B416 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 94646 invoked by uid 100); 3 Dec 2001 03:36:47 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15370.62287.191056.315669@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:36:47 -0600 To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011202215531.018f3d80@threespace.com> References: <008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org> <040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org> <003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org> <005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011202215531.018f3d80@threespace.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information types: > Other people don't spend time poring over technical specifications to see > which one is best suited to their needs. Most people want compatibility > and easy access to software and support. [...] > It sucks, but nobody has lost anything because of it. Those two lines pretty much sum up how most of the non-geeks I know feel about Windows. It sucks, they know it sucks, but it's not critical and they don't want to fool with it. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 19:59:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F62737B416 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:59:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB33xEx77258; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 04:59:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <019001c17bae$e03b1960$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat Mailing List" , "Technical Information" References: <008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org> <040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org> <003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org> <005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org> <008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011202215531.018f3d80@threespace.com> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 04:59:14 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip writes: > This is one of the things that never ceases to > amaze me about this list--how easily the people > on here forget that YOU (WE) ARE NOT REPRESENTATIVE > OF MASS-MARKET COMPUTER USERS. If we were, we > wouldn't be here now. Exactly. With no clue as to the attitudes and requirements of the _average_ computer user. > Believe me, there's a reason that every version > of Windows to date will still run the same DOS > software that existed nearly 20 years ago. Because there are still users out there who want to run that software, and won't buy anything that doesn't allow that. Indeed, there are _corporations_ out there who still want to run that software, too. > I've often said that technologically superior > products are doomed to fail in the marketplace > because they tend to rely on their superior > technology as incentive for people to buy them. Doomed is a strong word. I don't think that products often succeed big-time on technical merit alone, but a handful do (CDs and DVDs come to mind). Usually, though, other factors decide which technology succeeds (cf. VHS vs. Betamax). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 20: 2:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4125237B41B for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:02:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB342Dx77275; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 05:02:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <019501c17baf$4ae465a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Technical Information" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat Mailing List" References: <008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org><040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org><003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org><005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011202215531.018f3d80@threespace.com> <15370.62287.191056.315669@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 05:02:13 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > Those two lines pretty much sum up how most of > the non-geeks I know feel about Windows. It > sucks, they know it sucks, but it's not > critical and they don't want to fool with it. In part they say that because that's what their geek friends say; they really don't know or care themselves. I've had non-geek friends tell me how much better Linux is than Windows, even though they aren't sure exactly what Linux is (a different kind of computer? a new word-processing program? a new version of ICQ?). They just echo whatever they are told by people they consider "experts." You can tell which "experts" they've talked to, too, by which products they think are superior (Linux or UNIX usually means they have friends in college or just starting out, for example, and Mac usually means that they have friends who work in the fine arts). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 20: 5:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B0B8E37B416 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:05:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 95048 invoked by uid 100); 3 Dec 2001 04:05:05 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15370.63985.8644.745618@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 22:05:05 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Technical Information" , "FreeBSD Chat Mailing List" Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <019501c17baf$4ae465a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org> <040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org> <003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org> <005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011202215531.018f3d80@threespace.com> <15370.62287.191056.315669@guru.mired.org> <019501c17baf$4ae465a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > Those two lines pretty much sum up how most of > > the non-geeks I know feel about Windows. It > > sucks, they know it sucks, but it's not > > critical and they don't want to fool with it. > In part they say that because that's what their geek friends say; they really > don't know or care themselves. Oh, horse pucky. Anyone who noticed that time passes knows that computers crashing sucks. > I've had non-geek friends tell me how much better Linux is than Windows, even > though they aren't sure exactly what Linux is (a different kind of computer? a > new word-processing program? a new version of ICQ?). They just echo whatever > they are told by people they consider "experts." You can tell which "experts" > they've talked to, too, by which products they think are superior (Linux or UNIX > usually means they have friends in college or just starting out, for example, > and Mac usually means that they have friends who work in the fine arts). I guess your friends aren't cognizant of time passing, then. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 20:18:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1126637B405 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:18:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB34Hmx77310; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 05:17:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01bb01c17bb1$78653110$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Technical Information" , "FreeBSD Chat Mailing List" References: <008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org><040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org><003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org><005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011202215531.018f3d80@threespace.com><15370.62287.191056.315669@guru.mired.org><019501c17baf$4ae465a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15370.63985.8644.745618@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 05:17:48 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > Oh, horse pucky. Anyone who noticed that time > passes knows that computers crashing sucks. Most people don't experience crashes with the frequency that you adumbrate. Even when crashes occur, for the casual desktop user they are inconsequential. I've known several people, in fact, who reset the machine whenever they are having a problem, just to see if that helps--obviously crashes are not a concern for them, if they can do a hardware reset without blinking an eye. > I guess your friends aren't cognizant of time > passing, then. I'm not sure what the passage of time has to do with it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 20:21:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BA89A37B405 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:21:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 95279 invoked by uid 100); 3 Dec 2001 04:21:25 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15370.64965.526103.881475@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 22:21:25 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , "Technical Information" , "FreeBSD Chat Mailing List" Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) In-Reply-To: <01bb01c17bb1$78653110$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org> <040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org> <003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org> <005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011202215531.018f3d80@threespace.com> <15370.62287.191056.315669@guru.mired.org> <019501c17baf$4ae465a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15370.63985.8644.745618@guru.mired.org> <01bb01c17bb1$78653110$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > Oh, horse pucky. Anyone who noticed that time > > passes knows that computers crashing sucks. > Most people don't experience crashes with the frequency that you adumbrate. The people I know do. If you have a pointer to a survey that indicates the opposite is true for the general populace, I'd be interested in reading it. > Even when crashes occur, for the casual desktop user they are inconsequential. Correct. They just suck. > I've known several people, in fact, who reset the machine whenever they are > having a problem, just to see if that helps--obviously crashes are not a concern > for them, if they can do a hardware reset without blinking an eye. The best thing about windows is that many problems *can* be fixed by rebooting the system. That doesn't change the fact that reboots - whether intentional or not - represent a waste of time, and hence suck. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 20:29:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tsunami.acidpit.org (tsunami.acidpit.org [206.190.163.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71ECD37B416 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:29:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rch@localhost) by tsunami.acidpit.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id fB34T2F67671; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:29:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:29:02 -0500 From: Robert Hough To: Mike Meyer Cc: Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Message-ID: <20011202232902.A67636@acidpit.org> Mail-Followup-To: Mike Meyer , Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List References: <003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org> <005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011202215531.018f3d80@threespace.com> <15370.62287.191056.315669@guru.mired.org> <019501c17baf$4ae465a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15370.63985.8644.745618@guru.mired.org> <01bb01c17bb1$78653110$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15370.64965.526103.881475@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15370.64965.526103.881475@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 22:21:25 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't wish to sound rude, but can you guys take this off-list? Jeez, this thread has gone on longer than most freaking nanog-l threads, and that's saying alot! -- Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 20:37:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6BD237B405 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:37:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB34b1x77363; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 05:37:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01c001c17bb4$274fde80$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , "Technical Information" , "FreeBSD Chat Mailing List" References: <008901c17a30$7d084f40$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.37543.15609.362257@guru.mired.org><040701c179af$4bda25f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15367.43943.686638.723011@guru.mired.org><003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org><005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org><4.3.2.7.2.20011202215531.018f3d80@threespace.com><15370.62287.191056.315669@guru.mired.org><019501c17baf$4ae465a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15370.63985.8644.745618@guru.mired.org><01bb01c17bb1$78653110$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15370.64965.526103.881475@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 05:37:00 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > The people I know do. The people I know don't. > If you have a pointer to a survey that > indicates the opposite is true for the > general populace, I'd be interested in > reading it. If you have a pointer to a survey that indicates that your experience is representative of the general population, I'd be interested in reading it. > Correct. They just suck. Not even that. A lot of people think nothing of booting the machine. It's like turning a light on and off. > The best thing about windows is that many > problems *can* be fixed by rebooting the > system. If problems can be fixed by rebooting, then they are probably not Windows problems at all, but instead problems with applications. > That doesn't change the fact that reboots - > whether intentional or not - represent a > waste of time, and hence suck. Driving a car that can't reach 150 mph wastes time, too, but most people don't worry about it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 20:37:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93C4A37B41E for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:37:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB34bYx77367; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 05:37:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01e901c17bb4$3b510620$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Robert Hough" , "Mike Meyer" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat Mailing List" References: <003301c179ea$8925d270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.2156.193643.17139@guru.mired.org> <005601c179f3$a4030640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15368.5624.255357.964607@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011202215531.018f3d80@threespace.com> <15370.62287.191056.315669@guru.mired.org> <019501c17baf$4ae465a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15370.63985.8644.745618@guru.mired.org> <01bb01c17bb1$78653110$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15370.64965.526103.881475@guru.mired.org> <20011202232902.A67636@acidpit.org> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 05:37:34 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you aren't interested in the thread, why are you reading and participating in it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Hough" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Anthony Atkielski" ; "FreeBSD Chat Mailing List" Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 05:29 Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) > I don't wish to sound rude, but can you guys take this off-list? Jeez, > this thread has gone on longer than most freaking nanog-l threads, and > that's saying alot! > > -- > Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 20:42:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tsunami.acidpit.org (tsunami.acidpit.org [206.190.163.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0971737B419 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:42:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rch@localhost) by tsunami.acidpit.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id fB34g6e67804 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:42:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 23:42:05 -0500 From: Robert Hough To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: daemon images Message-ID: <20011202234205.C67636@acidpit.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone have some links to good images of the BSD daemon that work well with the xlogin logo? I thought I had seen one used by NetBSD once, but I can't seem to find it. Also, any good daemon backgrounds would be a nice addition as well. I did find one I liked, but it would be nice if I had some more. Here's the link to the one image I found, that I modified for use as a background image: http://www.satindeath.net/boundchuck.jpg -- Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 20:50:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2993437B405 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:50:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 03850239A05; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:50:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:50:36 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Robert Hough Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: daemon images Message-ID: <20011203045036.GA13169@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20011202234205.C67636@acidpit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011202234205.C67636@acidpit.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2001-12-02 23:42 -0500, Robert Hough wrote: > Anyone have some links to good images of the BSD daemon that work well > with the xlogin logo? I thought I had seen one used by NetBSD once, but > I can't seem to find it. >=20 > Also, any good daemon backgrounds would be a nice addition as well. I > did find one I liked, but it would be nice if I had some more. >=20 > Here's the link to the one image I found, that I modified for use as a > background image: >=20 > http://www.satindeath.net/boundchuck.jpg Hey, that's a cool image. I've added it to my gallery of Beasties, which can be found at . There are=20 definitely some there which are good backgrounds, especially if you're not at work. :) Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter If Bill Gates had a nickel for every mailto:gsutter@zer0.org time Windows crashed... http://zer0.org/~gsutter/ Oh wait! He does! hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE8CwScIBUx1YRd/t0RAi1CAJ4yv3ufEu8GbdtIzA7FdplDUhoHQQCeNet3 9riYzmJtWTGNmZNAdet5Zq8= =fSGQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 21:13:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4FF37B419 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:13:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 9597 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2001 05:13:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 3 Dec 2001 05:13:51 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <01e901c17bb4$3b510620$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 21:13:51 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List , Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List , Mike Meyer , Robert Hough Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 03-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > If you aren't interested in the thread, why are you reading and participating > in > it? Cause he's on the mailing list and it keeps filling up his inbox? -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 21:13:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 946FB37B417 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:13:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26992 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2001 05:14:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 3 Dec 2001 05:14:36 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <01bb01c17bb1$78653110$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 21:13:50 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List , Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List , Technical Information , Mike Meyer Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 03-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Mike writes: > >> Oh, horse pucky. Anyone who noticed that time >> passes knows that computers crashing sucks. > > Most people don't experience crashes with the frequency that you adumbrate. > Even when crashes occur, for the casual desktop user they are > inconsequential. > I've known several people, in fact, who reset the machine whenever they are > having a problem, just to see if that helps--obviously crashes are not a > concern > for them, if they can do a hardware reset without blinking an eye. I hardly ever use Windows but I still get it to crash when I do use it. My Mom has found that rebooting her Windows system once a week makes it "run better". She is hardly a computer geek. I've found that when using a USB keyboard with Win98 to play games, it routinely "forgets" about the keyboard in the middle of playing a game after about 20 minutes or so requiring me to power reset the machine to get it back. (Removing and reinserting the keyboard doesn't bring it back.) Windows technical problems are glaring, not minor nits. I will admit that Windows has trained people to believe that computers crashing are normal, and that rebooting or reinstalling the OS to fix things are normal. I've worked at companies that performed a scheduled reboot of every NT machine every Friday evening because they couldn't trust the machines to stay up for more than a week. Then again, I also seem to have BSD germs or something. I've walked up to idle NT servers, brought up the control panel just so I can write down some notes on their memory, etc. and had the machine blue screen and crash. At least when BSD crashes it's not random and is usually my fault. Regardless, Windows has definitely lowered the expectations of the average Joe computer user. Most don't even realize that they should expect a machine to reliably function for months or years at a time without a glitch. We expect cars to not break down on the way to work on the freeway every morning, but it's normal for the computer to be rebooted every day. :-/ -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 22:51:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83A6737B405; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 22:51:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB36pAx77677; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 07:51:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <020e01c17bc6$e4a0a980$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat Mailing List" , "Technical Information" , "Mike Meyer" References: Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 07:51:09 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John writes: > My Mom has found that rebooting her Windows > system once a week makes it "run better". Some consumer versions of Windows have mild problems with things like memory leaks, or other things that get messed up over time. The professional (NT-based) versions do not have any such problems that I know of, although some application systems that run on NT have been known to require occasional restarting. > I will admit that Windows has trained people > to believe that computers crashing are normal, > and that rebooting or reinstalling the OS to > fix things are normal. Windows did not do this. Personal computers have been crashing and freezing up ever since they were invented. There has almost never been a desktop operating system for PCs that is truly stable from a professional perspective; NT and its relatives are the closest approach. FreeBSD and similar UNIX operating systems are far more stable, but they aren't well suited to desktop use. > I've worked at companies that performed a > scheduled reboot of every NT machine every Friday > evening because they couldn't trust the machines > to stay up for more than a week. Typically that means that they don't know what they are doing, or they are running buggy applications. > I've walked up to idle NT servers, brought up > the control panel just so I can write down some > notes on their memory, etc. and had the machine > blue screen and crash. That has never happened to me. > Regardless, Windows has definitely lowered the > expectations of the average Joe computer user. No. The average Joe never had high expectations to begin with. Most people who have never worked with anything except PCs have no concept of what "reliable" is actually supposed to mean. > Most don't even realize that they should expect > a machine to reliably function for months or > years at a time without a glitch. Yes. See above. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 2 22:52:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A181D37B405; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 22:52:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB36q7x77683; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 07:52:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <021301c17bc7$06a835c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat Mailing List" , "Mike Meyer" , "Robert Hough" References: Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 07:52:06 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John writes: > Cause he's on the mailing list and it keeps > filling up his inbox? So? That's what the delete key is for. I delete hundreds of messages a day, and keep only what interests me. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 3 2:55:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA26837B419 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 02:54:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fB3AskR67117; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 02:54:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: RE: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 02:54:39 -0800 Message-ID: <000801c17be8$e79f7220$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <00c901c17b3a$8998b2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:anthony@freebie.atkielski.com] >Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 6:06 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: chat@freebsd.org >Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) > > >Ted writes: > >> I am not aware of any studies that anyone has >> done that make this claim. > >That is apparent. And neither are you aware of any or you would have cited them. Both of us are unaware of any reputable studies that come to this conclusion because they don't exist. > >> Care to cite some specific examples to support >> your point or are you just shooting from the hip? > >I already have. High-profile cases included AT&T, IBM, and Standard Oil. Terry cited those, you didn't. >However, less newsworthy antitrust actions are undertaken with much greater >frequency. One reason Intel tries to keep such a low profile, for >example, is >that it is a very tempting target indeed for such actions. How does Intel (or any company for that matter) keep a "low profile"? Your just grasping at straws here. Intel doesen't keep a "low profile" anymore than Microsoft does. The reason that they aren't innundated with antitrust actions that declare them a monopoly is because they aren't one, due to AMD. There is no other commercial software company that is to Microsoft what AMD is to Intel. >IBM used to issue >small printed guides to its field employees with specific >instructions on how to >avoid conduct that might be construed as antitrust for the same reason. > And is there something wrong with this? It's an action that Microsoft ought to copy. You display little understanding of the huge expense and time commitment required to mount an anti-trust challange lawsuit that has a ghost of a chance of succeeding. It's not done just because the CEO of a company runs around and claims his product is the only solution, it's only done when survey after survey after sales figures after multiple other indicators show this exists as a fact. Consider how easy it was to prove Standard Oil was a monopoly vs proving Microsoft is a monopoly. With Standard Oil there were physical things, like gas stations, distributors, etc. which existed and which you could count. With software how do you get acceptable figures of what is out there? It's much harder. There's no central database everyone uses to register software. Yet despite this the finding that Microsoft is a monopoly was demonstrated, accepted as fact, and survived appeal. > >Sun has been attempting, in the most ham-handed way imaginable, to >simultaneously have its Java language declared an open standard while still >retaining every conceivable right to its use. It seems to want a >public-domain >cash cow. Some people might construe this as an inappropriate attempt to >maintain a dominant market position. > If such a market position existed. Server-side Java and Client-side Java is by no means the dominant way of doing things on servers and browsers. Now I don't dispute that what Sun is doing is wrong, clearly it is. But it's not monopolistic because Java simply isn't as widespread as it's proponents would like you to believe. If some day in the future Java does become the dominant programming language, I'll accept this, but right now the C language holds that title. (at least for Windows, this is what Microsoft claims, see http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-2128454.html) And as far as Javascript goes, while this may be popular on the browser, the survey shows (http://www.securityspace.com/s_survey/data/man.200111/apachemods.html) that PHP has outdistanced Java as the scripting language of choice on the webserver. >AOL deliberately modified its instant messaging client so that it would not >interoperate with MSN Mesenger, in order to prevent Microsoft from >tapping the >large AOL IM market. > Your confusing an entire market with a single company's unique product. Companies are permitted to create new and unique products, this isn't monopolistic. If the product is good enough then it's use grows. At some point during that growth the product enters a grey area where it becomes more than a companies new unique product, but somewhat less than a defined market. Eventually as other products appear that copy what it does, you do get a market. Whether a company with a new and unique product becomes a monopoly or not is due in a large part to whether they block other companies that later on create copies of this product that are independently engineered. (ie: no copyright violations) In this case why should AOL allow a competitor's Instant Messenger client to connect to it's IM servers? AOL funds those servers and they were never designated as public servers, the way a published anonymous FTP or webserver is. At the time of AOL's action, Instant Messaging didn't exist as a defined market. This is equivalent to complaining that HBO modified their TV channel distribution (ie: scrambled it) so it would not interoperate with a regular cable TV tuner, so that a regular Cable-ready TV set could tune in HBO. This is not monopolistic because AOL Instant Messenger wasn't a market, it was a service offered by AOL to AOL subscribers. Microsoft's IM is a copy of this, as is Yahoo Messaging and so on. What's going on with IM is that this is in the pre-market, embryonic stage. It's rapidly maturing as they are now working to create a public standard that all IM clients can support in addition to their proprietary one. Once that standard is codified if a single company locks all the others out then they would become a monopoly. Using the prior example, if HBO owned all movie channels on cable, then it could be considered a monopoly in that market. >There are _many_ other examples of suspicious behavior on the part >of many large >companies with market dominance; these are just two examples that came >immediately to mind. My personal opinion is that AOL is much more >of a threat >to consumers in this respect than is Microsoft at this time. I don't see that unless your talking about consumers of Internet access. >However, AOL has >very few competitors, and so there are few organizations to lobby >legislators to >push the DOJ to action. > AOL has lots of competitors, such as AT&T Worldnet, MSN, etc. And it is true that if they continue to concentrate on the dialup market and if by some miracle end up with 80-90% of the Internet Access dialup market, then they will have an anti-trust suit to deal with. However, I'll point out that AOL already has had dealings with the anti-trust regulators during the Time Warner merger, and those were worked out to the regulator's satisfaction. So I don't see as how AOL is unwilling to accept regulation the way Microsoft is/was. (Bill Gates has spoken against regulation of software before) >> There is something unique about Microsoft - they >> currently control something like 80% of desktop >> software for personal computers across the world. >> No other company has this distinction. > >Obviously, it is impossible for more than one company to have 80% >market share >at one time. But 80% market share is not unusual. Look at Intel. Look at >Apple (100% market share). > Intel does not have 80% of the processor market, it has 78%. See http://www.siliconstrategies.com/story/OEG20010713S0046 And further AMD claims that they will get 30% so Intel will slip to 70% if that happens. Apple is definitely the monopoly provider of Macintosh computers. But nobody classes Macintoshes as a special, separate, defined market. (regardless of what Apple probably wants you to believe) Mac's are considered personal computers and are part of the overall PC market, and Apple probably doesen't have 10% of that market, let alone 100%. > >> However once a company has achieved a monopoly >> then it can make the worst possible decisions >> and it will stay a monopoly, if the cost of entry >> into the market is extremely high. > >No company remains a monopoly by making poor decisions. Absolutely not true. For example, take the local electric company here, Portland General Electric. (now owned by Enron) They have made numerous bad decisions and are still the monopoly supplier of electricity here. I can remember several years ago them spending millions of dollars advertising the "all electric house" in short, pushing customers to dump their older oil furnaces and replace them with electric ones, as well as pushing people to get electric water heaters instead of gas. They even built a number of "all-electric" homes. Today with the power shortage they are giving away thousands of $6 coupons for compact flourscent lights in an attempt to get people to use _less_ electricity because it's so expensive to build generators. Meanwhile they have filed at least a dozen rate hikes over the last 2 decades. >Indeed, the >utility of >antitrust actions is often questionable, since they often do no more than >slightly accelerate the inevitable. Companies that are poorly >managed will lose >their positions of dominance of their own accord, whereas >well-managed companies >will tend to retain dominance no matter what draconian measures are >imposed upon >them to diminish it. > Once again you are ignoring the results of many anti-trust actions, and consider that the majority of antitrust actions are not lawsuits, they are requirements that regulators impose on companies that merge. In fact in the US, most large industries are very carefully regulated in this respect. If you look at the oil industry for example, the federal regulators have the country divided up into market regions, and no oil company is permitted to be a monopoly in any of them, this is why you have a Shell and a Texaco and a Mobile station on the corner all competing. If the oil companies had their druthers, they would have divided up the country into markets and each of them would be the monopoly provider in that market, and charge whatever they hell they felt like. >> This is the case in software. The cost of entry >> into the desktop software market, particularly the >> office desktop software market, is simply too high >> because users take years and years to make the switch. > >Fortunately, there are 100,000 other software markets to choose from. And in >most cases, there is a very dominant leading software package in >each of them. > But the other 99,999 "software markets" you are referring to are really not markets, they are in that "pre-market" embroynic stage. For example, take chemical corporation inventory and management, it's a specific industry and I understand that there's a single provider in it. But there is really no "market" of chemical corporation inventory and management systems, instead that software is nothing more than a very specific software product from one company. It it after all perfectly possible to run a chemical company with a general purpose management information system package. There's really only a few other markets in software that are separate from desktop software, one is server software quite obviously. Another is programming languages. >It's ironic that you try to make an example of Office, since that is >a product >that people buy voluntarily--it is not normally preinstalled on a machine. > People buy it voluntarily because it's the only option for most of them, because Microsoft pushed all the other office solutions providers out of the market. It's just now that we are seeing the first beginnings of competitive office suites (ie: Corel, StarOffice, etc.) but it will be many years before those are serious contenders on the desktop, and they will of course have to support the Microsoft Office file formats perfectly, (unlike the older competitors, ie: WordPerfect, Lotus, etc which refused to do this, and that became their demise as Microsoft used it as the key to topple them) > >> While this does starve the monopolistic software >> company of cash somewhat, users will not replace >> existing software with new software from a competitor >> unless there's compelling need, such as a must= >> have feature. > >It doesn't matter, since if they don't upgrade, even the >monopolistic software >company will go out of business. It's a lot worse than just being "somewhat >starved of cash"--it's bankruptcy. > This will only become a possibility if the TOTAL NUMBER of PC's stays the same or starts to shrink. Currenty, every year there's more PC's that exist in the world than there were the previous year. Those new systems need licenses and thus create revenue for the monopoly - not a lot but enough for it to survive on. > >> Because of this behavior it's going to take years >> and years to dislodge Microsoft no matter how >> piss-poor their software is. > >Try to think things through a little further. If nobody is buying >version after >version, Microsoft will be gone in pretty short order. The company >depends for >survival on the selling of frequent upgrades. No. The company does not depend on upgrade after upgrade for survival. New PC software sales, service contracts, training, and new product introduction provide enough revenue to keep them alive. And of course ultimately people DO upgrade because the hardware does wear out, and is replaced by newer hardware some of which isn't supported by the older software. The upgrade intervals greatly lengthen, true, but eventually they happen. What Microsoft DOES depend on the revenue from version after version for is to provide an immense amount of money to spend on fishing expeditions and extremely speculative operations. For example, it took millions and millions of dollars of operating system revenue to fund the development of web browsers and web servers that could be dumped on the market for free in order to put Netscape out of business. If Microsoft didn't have that cash cow of 2-year MS Office and Windows OS revenue burning a hole in their pocket then IIS and IE would have had to justify their existence by making a profit, thus Microsoft would have charged money or them, and we would not have a monopoly of webservers for the Windows OS. And the IIS webserver is obviously horribly designed and functions horribly because Apache is still beating it, and most Apache installs are on UNIX. In short, IIS is so horrible that even the Windows admins will switch OS to avoid using it. If Microsoft had been smart they would have dumped all that cash used to put Netscape out of business into improvements in the base operating system, then Windows would be far better than it is today and consumers would have benefited more. Instead Bill Gates got so stuck on the idea of beating Netscape into the dust that he sacrificed years of advancement on Microsoft's money-making products, and triggered an anti-trust trial that successfully destroyed the "Microsoft can do no wrong" image, will cost the company millons more, is the beginning of regulation for it, and has also spurred a dozen copy-cat trust actions overseas. >All PC software companies do. Not all, some of them depend on yearly service contract revenue for income. >Just having a large user base with Microsoft software installed is useless to >Microsoft, if they refuse to continually upgrade. > It's not useless, they can create numerous "must-have" subsidiary adjunct products that "snap in" to the base OS and are costly, or trigger upgrade activity. Windows Internet Sharing in Windows 98 was one of these products - it replaces a for-profit Microsoft product - Microsoft Proxy - with a free one just for the sake of kicking off upgrade sales to Windows 98 SE. And wait until the day comes when Microsoft announces they will no longer provide security patches to NT4 or WIn95 or whatever. There's always a way to force people to upgrade. > >> ... or cheating is an aberration and the antitrust >> lawsuit proves that Microsoft is run by criminals. > >Such strong emotions! How did your hatred of Microsoft develop? I've always >wondered how people come to adopt such extreme attitudes. > Huh? People convicted of a crime are criminals. Microsoft has been convicted of a crime. The people running it at the time were engaged in criminal activity. Thus they are criminals. If the shoe fits, wear it. > >Before it attained monopoly status, the illegal maneuvering to which >you allude >would not have been illegal (monopoly status is required for the >violations of >the Sherman Act of which Microsoft was found guilty). And after >attaining that >status, it would not have made much difference, as you observe. So >it doesn't >really matter. > I wasn't referring to the OEM bundling stuff. And anway, even if I was, Microsoft signed a consent document with either Justice of FTC about 5 years ago during the last go-around promising not to force OEM's to bundle Windows. When they kept doing it, they were illegally violating that contract. The only reason that Justice didn't bring that up as a charge is the double jeopardy clause. The penalties for trust violations are much more severe than simple contract violation so you ignore that violation and go after them on the trust violation. > >No, their continued existence is a consequence of making sound business >decisions. > Except for the decision to squash Netscape, which was so blatent that they couldn't be allowed to get away with it, thus the anti-trust trial. You can argue about it all you want but if Microsoft had bent over backwards to help Netscape and stayed out of the browser market, there would not have been enough public support for Justice to have a firm enough political base to file the antitrust case to begin with. And as they make no revenue from IE or IIS, it wouldn't have cost them anything. If Netscape was really as badly managed as you say, they would have gone out of business anyway. >In your crusade against the company, however, you've probably not >noticed that >the golden age of Microsoft came and went some years ago. While I expect >Microsoft to be a major market power for some years to come, I also >expect that >the very gradual decline now beginning will continue, I think your misreading what's happening with Microsoft. The golden age you refer to was simply the time that the company had an unbelievably obscenely large amount of money, now they just have a unbelievably large amount of money, and so are pulling their horns in a bit on the spending side. Also they have attained monopoly status thanks to the trial, so their biggest problem is how to get out of the majority of the market, yet still retain all the profitable/paying/good customers in the market, leaving the bottom-feeders for everyone else to eek out a living on. Witness Windows Product Activation (WPA) that features' sole purpose is to scrape off all the "customers" that don't pay for their software. Those "customers" can the move their taking ways to suck off other software companies and harm them instead, while in exchange Microsoft can point to a decrease in the total number of product installs and use it to claim that they aren't a monopoly anymore. > >Your intensely emotional reaction to Microsoft's perceived evil is rather >dramatically obvious in your posts. Intel is likely to be just as guilty as >Microsoft, but you do not rant against it. The same is true for >AOL, and Apple. > I tend to not rant against companies that aren't breaking the law. Despite your blathering to the contrary, the figures show that Intel, AOL, and Apple have nowhere near the penetration in their markets that Microsoft has in it's. >> The FTC action was not a statement that Intel >> is a monopoly but rather that Intel cannot withhold >> technical specs of it's products as a way of >> demanding customers license back patents to it. > >Now, why would Intel do that? What is the value to customers of that action? > Ask Compaq and the others that were listed as harmed companies to speculate. I have no idea why managers in Intel pulled that stunt, and apparently the CEO of Intel didn't either because he agreed almost immediately with the FTC which is why the case was wrapped up very quickly out of court. >> Bill Gates spent his time in the public eye talking >> about Windows. > >That was his biggest mistake. When you become well-known and popular, you >develop lots of enemies. > You mean like Ghandi and the Pope, right? Oh I forgot Santa Claus. :-) >> Thus his "time in the public eye" was nothing >> more than advertising. > >No, it was a serious mistake made by a confirmed geek who just >didn't understand >certain principles of public relations. Now he is suffering the >consequences. > He didn't misunderstand public relations. He knew that nobody pays attention to boring people and so he jazzed up the headlines with preposterous statements to get attention. Much like your doing in this thread. :-) This worked amazingly well, and if he had simply kept it at that level, he would have been dismissed as a harmless crank by the industry, and it would have been sufficient to keep the reporters enraptured enough to guarentee him regular soundbites to do more advertising. What he didn't understand is that to millions of Internet newbies, Netscape for a time represented The Internet. It was the physical manifestation of a virtual electronic happening that they had no other way of referencing. When Microsoft began releasing products that duplicated Netscape's product line, even the most clueless Internet newbie recognized that this was a direct attack on the darling child of the New Internet Economy. Even that would have been tolerable, until those products were released for free, well that's dumping and it crossed the line. Of course, by itself going after Netscape wasn't illegal - but it was unethical. In the US, people here don't like it when someone in a position of leadership does something legal, but unethical, and there's always punishment that happens by getting the leader on some side-issue. The scandal with ex-President Clinton is a pefect example. >> You can't be convicted unless your charged, >> and Microsoft wasn't charged with cheating >> to get where they were. > >Then your claim that they were convicted is baseless. > They wern't convicted of cheating to get where they were. They were convicted of the cheating that took place after they got where they were going. >> To argue that Microsoft was completely ethical >> throughout it's history, as you are doing, then >> once day decided to break the law and got caught, >> is extremely naieve. > >No large company is completely ethical, because it is impossible to >ensure the >ethical behavior of thousands of individual employees. True, however there's the "company environment" to consider, ie: whether illegality is institutionalized in the company or not. >But painting >Microsoft >or any other one company as a Great Satan is the acme of naïveté. > I don't - I say that the company is run by criminals, not that everyone in it is a criminal. In Microsoft's case, it's CEO rewards members of the company that break the law, if breaking the law furthers the goals of the company. This creates an environment that encourages unethical behavior, not discourages it. > > >So where is the harm to the consumer? A good browser that you must >pay for, or >a better browser for free. Looks like the consumer got a pretty good deal. > For the immediate short term. However product dumping is always followed by price gouging once the competitors have been bankrupted and the barriers for new competitors have been erected. Over the long haul, dumping that is not stopped will cost the consumers more. In Microsoft's case, ultimately they failed in the dumping attempt because they didn't expect that someone like AOL would buy up Netscape and keep Netscape fed and locked up in the kennel, ready to come storming out should Microsoft start in with the price gouging. While the barriers to the new competitors have been successfully raised (because so much crap has been put into the browsers now that it's a major production now to write one) the one serious competitor with the name recognition to take Microsoft should they start charging for the browser in the future has been given a fairly permanent cash artery that will keep it alive. However, Microsoft has been successful in clearing the field of webservers that run under Windows. While the Apache port is interesting from public-relations point of view, it's unlikely to take more than a fraction of the Windows-based webservers. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 3 5:18: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3193637B405 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 05:18:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB3DHix78322; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:17:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <000901c17bfc$e58ad2e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: References: <000801c17be8$e79f7220$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:17:44 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Your rant is quite long and it's obvious that this is largely a religious issue to you, so I think I'll skip it. I have long experience with Microsoft-bashers and they are an intransigent breed, although this is hardly unique among bashers. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 11:54 Subject: RE: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 3 6: 8:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEEDD37B405 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 06:08:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB3E7nD00086; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:07:50 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20011203045036.GA13169@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20011202234205.C67636@acidpit.org> <20011203045036.GA13169@klapaucius.zer0.org> Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:52:47 +0100 To: Gregory Sutter , Robert Hough From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: daemon images Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:50 PM -0800 on 2001/12/02, Gregory Sutter wrote: >> http://www.satindeath.net/boundchuck.jpg > > Hey, that's a cool image. I've added it to my gallery of Beasties, > which can be found at . There are > definitely some there which are good backgrounds, especially if > you're not at work. :) And if BSDiva, Demona, or Leena appeal to you, Raul Fernandez has a page at with a lot more of his artwork -- most of which is available for free, no less. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 3 9: 8: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2BE37B416 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23916 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2001 17:08:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 3 Dec 2001 17:08:52 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <021301c17bc7$06a835c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:08:04 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Anthony Atkielski Subject: STOP Freeding the Troll! Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 03-Dec-01 Anthony Atkielski wrote: > John writes: > >> Cause he's on the mailing list and it keeps >> filling up his inbox? > > So? That's what the delete key is for. I delete hundreds of messages a day, > and keep only what interests me. You do realize some people are paying to download your messages? Please just drop the thread or move it off the list. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 3 9:15:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 738C737B419; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:15:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB3HFFx79102; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 18:15:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <000401c17c1e$13ad1d60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: STOP Freeding the Troll! Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 18:15:12 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John writes: > You do realize some people are paying to download > your messages? I'm paying to download all of theirs, too. I even pay to download yours. So does everyone else. As I've said, just ignore or delete threads that do not interest you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 3 11:20:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server01.minions.com (server01.minions.com [64.71.168.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6002637B417 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:20:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from kizmiaz.dis.org (almus@kizmiaz.dis.org [216.240.45.60]) by server01.minions.com (8.11.6/8.11.4) with ESMTP id fB3JKGg34617; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:20:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from almus@dis.org) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:16:55 -0800 (PST) From: Almus To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Robert Hough , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: daemon images In-Reply-To: <20011203045036.GA13169@klapaucius.zer0.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thats the aretwork that I had commisioned for defcon t-shierts 2 years ago.. I'm still planing on doing a reprint (withoyt the defconinfo at the bottom) is there is interest.. I'm also interested to know what modifications you did to make it a background for xlogin? just clip of the bottom? or somthing more? -almus -- e-mail: almus@dis.org -- Web: http://www.satindeath.net Remember... Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody is watching. -- Send private encrypted e-mail - Freedom 1.1 www.zks.net/clickthrough/click.asp?partner_id=111 On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Gregory Sutter wrote: > On 2001-12-02 23:42 -0500, Robert Hough wrote: > > Anyone have some links to good images of the BSD daemon that work well > > with the xlogin logo? I thought I had seen one used by NetBSD once, but > > I can't seem to find it. > > > > Also, any good daemon backgrounds would be a nice addition as well. I > > did find one I liked, but it would be nice if I had some more. > > > > Here's the link to the one image I found, that I modified for use as a > > background image: > > > > http://www.satindeath.net/boundchuck.jpg > > Hey, that's a cool image. I've added it to my gallery of Beasties, > which can be found at . There are > definitely some there which are good backgrounds, especially if > you're not at work. :) > > Greg > -- > Gregory S. Sutter If Bill Gates had a nickel for every > mailto:gsutter@zer0.org time Windows crashed... > http://zer0.org/~gsutter/ Oh wait! He does! > hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 3 13: 0:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.1contacts.com (mad.acumenex.net [216.185.65.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A51A537B417 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:00:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta.excite.com ([67.202.27.210]) by mail.1contacts.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:48:37 -0500 Message-ID: <000058575cb9$00007dba$00002afe@mta.excite.com> To: From: SSpoint@excIte.com Subject: **STOCK ALERT - GASE** IMPORTANT Y Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 14:57:30 -1800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: SSpoint6@excite.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org

To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 3 14: 0: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tsunami.acidpit.org (tsunami.acidpit.org [206.190.163.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7868C37B41B for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:59:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rch@localhost) by tsunami.acidpit.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id fB3Lxc072070; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:59:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:59:38 -0500 From: Robert Hough To: Almus Cc: Gregory Sutter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: daemon images Message-ID: <20011203165938.A72000@acidpit.org> Mail-Followup-To: Almus , Gregory Sutter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011203045036.GA13169@klapaucius.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from almus@dis.org on Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 11:16:55 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 03, 2001, Almus wrote: > > Thats the aretwork that I had commisioned for defcon t-shierts 2 years > ago.. I'm still planing on doing a reprint (withoyt the defconinfo at the > bottom) is there is interest.. I'd love to have a shirt with that image. That reminds me, anyone know what is up with the "new" BSD shirts that daemonnews sells? I ordered one like a month ago, still haven't see it. :( > I'm also interested to know what modifications you did to make it a > background for xlogin? just clip of the bottom? or somthing more? Something a bit more. First, I removed the FreeBSD banner at the bottom, and every thing below. Then put the image an a 1600x1200 canvas. After that I put FreeBSD going down the left and right side of the image. The text is in Yellow lines on black. I'm not very good at describing these things. I'd be more than happy to post the image somewhere for you take a look at, once I get home though. I might make several versions of that same image, for all of my other machines. I personally think it makes for a damned nice xlogin background. Now if I could just find a good xlogo for the xlogin box. -- Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 3 18:11: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B595A37B405; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 18:11:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB42ApD08196; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 03:10:51 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000401c17c1e$13ad1d60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <000401c17c1e$13ad1d60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 02:58:37 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "John Baldwin" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: STOP Freeding the Troll! Cc: "FreeBSD Chat Mailing List" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:15 PM +0100 on 2001/12/03, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > John writes: > >> You do realize some people are paying to download >> your messages? > > I'm paying to download all of theirs, too. I even pay to download yours. > So does everyone else. > > As I've said, just ignore or delete threads that do not interest you. Not everyone else is interested in paying to download your drivel, just to delete it. Not everyone else is in a financial position where they can afford to do so. Your attitude is precisely the same that I've heard from a thousand spammers. I don't see any difference here. You're spamming me, and I want it to stop. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 3 18:28: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C2E37B416 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 18:28:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB42Rwx80652 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 03:27:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <001301c17c6b$4a375650$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Chat Mailing List" References: <000401c17c1e$13ad1d60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: STOP Freeding the Troll! Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 03:27:58 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > Your attitude is precisely the same that > I've heard from a thousand spammers. I don't > see any difference here. You're spamming > me, and I want it to stop. You don't see any irony here? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 3 18:36:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 336B737B405 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 18:36:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 83939 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2001 02:36:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.199) by outpost-4.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 4 Dec 2001 02:36:08 -0000 Message-ID: <3C0C3693.E0FC730D@outpost.co.nz> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 15:36:03 +1300 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: STOP Freeding the Troll! References: <000401c17c1e$13ad1d60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001301c17c6b$4a375650$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > You don't see any irony here? Anthony, you've got the worst case of Last-word-itis I've ever seen, you make Brett Glass seem moderate and reserved. Shut the fuck up. -- C. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 Outpost Digital Media Ltd http://www.outpost.co.nz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 3 18:59:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 827C337B405 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 18:59:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB42xdx80717 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 03:59:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <002a01c17c6f$b75d6590$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: References: <000401c17c1e$13ad1d60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001301c17c6b$4a375650$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0C3693.E0FC730D@outpost.co.nz> Subject: Re: STOP Freeding the Troll! Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 03:59:39 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Craig writes: > Anthony, you've got the worst case of > Last-word-itis I've ever seen, you make > Brett Glass seem moderate and reserved. > Shut the fuck up. Don't I have a right to reply to messages addressed to me, or discussing me (particularly those whose only purpose seems to be to cast aspersions upon me)? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 4 3:49:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F024337B419 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 03:49:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB4BnLY03155; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 12:49:21 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001301c17c6b$4a375650$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <000401c17c1e$13ad1d60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001301c17c6b$4a375650$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 04:09:06 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "FreeBSD Chat Mailing List" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: STOP Freeding the Troll! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:27 AM +0100 on 2001/12/04, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > You don't see any irony here? In me telling you to shut up? No. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 4 5:56:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2534637B41D for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 05:56:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a081.otenet.gr [212.205.215.81]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fB4DuFp07413; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:56:15 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB4DuFU73201; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:56:15 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:56:13 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: STOP Freeding the Troll! Message-ID: <20011204135613.GA68120@hades.hell.gr> References: <000401c17c1e$13ad1d60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001301c17c6b$4a375650$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0C3693.E0FC730D@outpost.co.nz> <002a01c17c6f$b75d6590$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <002a01c17c6f$b75d6590$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-12-04 03:59:39, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Craig writes: > > Anthony, you've got the worst case of Last-word-itis I've ever > > seen, you make Brett Glass seem moderate and reserved. Shut the > > fuck up. > > Don't I have a right to reply to messages addressed to me, or > discussing me (particularly those whose only purpose seems to be to > cast aspersions upon me)? Can't that be done in private? Do we all, subscribers of the FreeBSD lists, have to be involved in something like that? -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 4 6: 1:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7309F37B405 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 06:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (win.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB4E0rx82211; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:00:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00b401c17ccc$172fdd70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: References: <000401c17c1e$13ad1d60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001301c17c6b$4a375650$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0C3693.E0FC730D@outpost.co.nz> <002a01c17c6f$b75d6590$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011204135613.GA68120@hades.hell.gr> Subject: Re: STOP Freeding the Troll! Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:00:53 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos writes: > Can't that be done in private? Do we all, > subscribers of the FreeBSD lists, have to be > involved in something like that? Look at the Cc: line in your message, and answer the question for me. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 4 7:11: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (f212.law15.hotmail.com [64.4.23.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D063137B41A for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:10:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:10:59 -0800 Received: from 193.158.141.121 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 04 Dec 2001 15:10:59 GMT X-Originating-IP: [193.158.141.121] From: "soeren heuer" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 16:10:59 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2001 15:10:59.0764 (UTC) FILETIME=[E1959740:01C17CD5] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org damn isnt there a chatting place or sth to get helkp/links or sth im getting crazy i just wanna set up a freebsd router machine and cant find the right manual page... grrr . im just a newbie so perhaps u could tell me where to look (commands included in manual). So io can set the machine damn i dont even get to our lan with it ;( so please tell me more. thx sorrn _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 4 10:42:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF9F37B405 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 9024 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2001 18:43:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 4 Dec 2001 18:43:04 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20011204135613.GA68120@hades.hell.gr> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:42:10 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Giorgos Keramidas Subject: Re: STOP Freeding the Troll! Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 04-Dec-01 Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2001-12-04 03:59:39, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> Craig writes: >> > Anthony, you've got the worst case of Last-word-itis I've ever >> > seen, you make Brett Glass seem moderate and reserved. Shut the >> > fuck up. >> >> Don't I have a right to reply to messages addressed to me, or >> discussing me (particularly those whose only purpose seems to be to >> cast aspersions upon me)? > > Can't that be done in private? Do we all, subscribers of the FreeBSD > lists, have to be involved in something like that? Please all, Anthony is going to reply to every message he gets, so just stop replying to him, period. He isn't going to shut up unless we stop giving him something to reply to. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 4 11:10: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4906E37BC27; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:08:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fB4J8m597150; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:08:49 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <011501c17cf7$1b02a8d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "John Baldwin" Cc: References: Subject: Re: STOP Freeding the Troll! Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:08:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John writes: > Please all, Anthony is going to reply to every > message he gets ... Come to think of it, that sort of makes sense, doesn't it? > ... so just stop replying to him, period. Why don't you just stop replying, reading, and participating in the thread yourself, then you won't be bothered by it. Why is it important that everyone else do as you wish to do? > He isn't going to shut up unless we stop giving > him something to reply to. Which reminds me: thanks for the post. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 4 11:16: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B00C37B42B for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:15:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25850 invoked by uid 100); 4 Dec 2001 19:15:57 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15373.8429.757210.319902@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 13:15:57 -0600 To: John Baldwin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: STOP Freeding the Troll! In-Reply-To: References: <20011204135613.GA68120@hades.hell.gr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin types: > Please all, Anthony is going to reply to every message he gets, so just stop > replying to him, period. He isn't going to shut up unless we stop giving him > something to reply to. No, he doesn't. Once you logic him into a corner, he shuts up. Either that, or he's still trying to figure out how to get out of it. Now, let's find out if this troll is subscribed to -chat. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 4 12:40:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1EF537B419 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 12:40:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704D7BCFE for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 12:40:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14375 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 12:40:18 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fB4KeHX16431; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 12:40:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: STOP Freeding the Troll! References: <000401c17c1e$13ad1d60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <001301c17c6b$4a375650$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C0C3693.E0FC730D@outpost.co.nz> <002a01c17c6f$b75d6590$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011204135613.GA68120@hades.hell.gr> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 04 Dec 2001 12:40:17 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011204135613.GA68120@hades.hell.gr> Message-ID: Lines: 29 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas writes: > On 2001-12-04 03:59:39, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Don't I have a right to reply to messages addressed to me, or > Can't that be done in private? Do we all, subscribers of the FreeBSD > lists, have to be involved in something like that? Yes, we do have to be involved in something like that unless we want to withhold or discourage the exercise of the rights/privileges of a person to respond to messages, especially ones addressed directly to the person, especially ones which cuss out or otherwise offend or insult the honor of the person. I'd hate to be involved in something like THAT. If we want certain threads to go away, we should send ALL of the people involved in the thread (and them only) pivate mail asking them to stop; maybe even explaining way. Adding to the thread is unlikely to stop it. The people responding to Anthony are more responsible for the length of this thread than he his, since he doesn't respond to every message. Send THEM a nastygram before (or at least after) trying to stiffle the person who's views are being attacked. It's only fair. Anthony has been quite civil and should be treated civily, even if you ask him to please stop. Don't make public statements and then upset if he responds publicly (unless it's not responsive or otherwise uncivil). Personally, I haven't minded this thread, though I ignore most of it. And I hope we allow Anthony to get his last word; he seems to need it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 4 14:18: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5DE337B405 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 14:17:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a106.otenet.gr [212.205.215.106]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fB4MHmp08678; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 00:17:48 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB4MHm702349; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 00:17:49 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 00:17:48 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: soeren heuer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20011204221748.GA2007@hades.hell.gr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello Søren, On 2001-12-04 16:10:59, soeren heuer wrote: > damn isnt there a chatting place or sth to get helkp/links or sth im > getting crazy i just wanna set up a freebsd router machine and cant find > the right manual page... grrr . im just a newbie so perhaps u could tell me > where to look (commands included in manual). So io can set the machine damn > i dont even get to our lan with it ;( > so please tell me more. > thx sorrn First of all, do not let a few minor difficulties discourage you. Then, you will hopefully find that the documentation pages at http://www.FreeBSD.org/ are rather helpful. You should definitely read the FAQ[1] and the Handbook[2], as long as the articles that are available online. There is a very nice index of the online documentation available at http://www.FreeBSD.org/docs.html :-) If you have read the documentation, and still have questions, there are mailing lists that you can post your questions to. The list you will most likely want is , but there are others too. Look at http://www.FreeBSD.org/support.html#mailing-list for more information about the available mailing lists. I hope this helps a bit, to get you started... Ciao, Giorgos. References: [1] http://www.FreeBSD.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/ The FreeBSD FAQ. A collection of questions and answers commonly asked by FreeBSD users. [2] http://www.FreeBSD.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ The FreeBSD Handbook. A book about finding, installing, and using FreeBSD for every day work. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 4 15:32:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from marbles.lost.net.au (marbles.lost.net.au [203.56.209.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B75337B417 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:32:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by marbles.lost.net.au (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fB4NWN217059; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:02:23 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from tim@lost.net.au) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:02:23 +1030 (CST) From: tim To: soeren heuer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011205095854.R16840-100000@marbles.lost.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Have a read through the networking chapter of the handbook at http://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/advanced-networking.html. When you've got a more specific question, try the freebsd-questions mailing list (freebsd-chat seems to be a lot of pointless noise the last few days...) Good luck, On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, soeren heuer wrote: sh> damn isnt there a chatting place or sth to get sh> helkp/links or sth im getting crazy i just wanna set up a sh> freebsd router machine and cant find the right manual sh> page... grrr . im just a newbie so perhaps u could tell sh> me where to look (commands included in manual). So io can sh> set the machine damn i dont even get to our lan with it sh> ;( so please tell me more. thx sorrn sh> sh> _________________________________________________________________ sh> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp sh> sh> sh> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org sh> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message sh> -- tim@lost.net.au To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 4 22:41:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B011E37B405 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 22:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fB56fBR70744; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 22:41:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: RE: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 22:41:11 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c17d57$d3b70be0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <000901c17bfc$e58ad2e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wow - Anthony, your amazing. In one fell swoop, by labeling what I discussed a "rant", you have made superior responses to every point I brought up. I'm stunned - a single label, and all the connotations that it carries with it - has provided perfect answers to every point. I bow to your impeccable logic and declare you the winner! To anyone else that might possibly not recognize that the above is sarcasm, sorry but I had to tell him that he won, his ego won't permit him to realize that he's just as "religious" about the issue as he's claiming I am. If he had really gotten tired of this, he would have privately mailed me. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:anthony@freebie.atkielski.com] >Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 5:18 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: chat@freebsd.org >Subject: Re: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) > > >Your rant is quite long and it's obvious that this is largely a >religious issue >to you, so I think I'll skip it. I have long experience with >Microsoft-bashers >and they are an intransigent breed, although this is hardly unique among >bashers. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" >To: "Anthony Atkielski" >Cc: >Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 11:54 >Subject: RE: Feeding the Troll (Was: freebsd as a desktop ?) > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 5 7:11:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp013.mail.yahoo.com (smtp013.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 07C1937B41C for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 07:11:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ihws.com (HELO ?192.168.0.102?) (63.218.21.114) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 2001 15:11:36 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 10:11:23 -0500 Subject: Re: From: Frank Laszlo To: soeren heuer , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org on 12/4/01 10:10 AM, soeren heuer used the force from soerenheuer@hotmail.com: freebsd-questions is a good mailing list for such things, Also get on irc and check out an undernet.org server... (us.undernet.org eu.undernet.org) and get on #FreeBSD that are very helpful and should be able to assist you in setting up your router.. I would help you but I am really quite busy today... Frank Laszlo, CEO Web Brain Computer Services nez@freebsdmatrix.net /-------------------------------------------------------\ | * Microsoft: "Where would you like to go to today?" | | * Linux: "Where would you like to go tomorrow?" | | * FreeBSD: "Hey, when are you guys going to catch up?" | \_______________________________________________________/ > damn isnt there a chatting place or sth to get helkp/links or sth im getting > crazy i just wanna set up a freebsd router machine and cant find the right > manual page... grrr . im just a newbie so perhaps u could tell me where to > look (commands included in manual). So io can set the machine damn i dont > even get to our lan with it ;( > so please tell me more. > thx sorrn > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 5 12:50: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.du.gtn.com (mail.du.gtn.com [194.77.9.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC50237B41A for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 12:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.du.gtn.com (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) id fB5Ko1D21333 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 21:50:01 +0100 (MET) >Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fB5KmkR09458 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 21:48:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 21:48:46 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: off-topic: cvs server: sticky tag `1.90' for file `scripts/make-release' is not a branch Message-ID: <20011205204846.GA9437@titan.klemm.gtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE SMP X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What happend, I get this now in my CVS repo ... cvs server: sticky tag `1.90' for file `scripts/make-release' is not a bran= ch cvs [server aborted]: correct above errors first! cvs commit: saving log message in /tmp/cvsjpyyT2 Somebody who has seen this before ? Thanks for any pointer. Andreas /// --=20 Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD Need a magic printfilter today ? http://www.apsfilter.org/ Songs from our band >> 64Bits << http://www.64bits.de Inofficial band pages with add-on stuff http://www.apsfilter.org/64bits.ht= ml --sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8Dogud3o+lGxvbLoRAgtsAJsGsUYNSr6Acs4EbbC/msMeV9VlCQCgto0l pwqoMEo+CpgCih0b1fz49hQ= =EG3x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sm4nu43k4a2Rpi4c-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 5 13: 1: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.du.gtn.com (mail.du.gtn.com [194.77.9.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CEEB37B41A for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 13:01:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.du.gtn.com (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) id fB5L11p22941 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 22:01:01 +0100 (MET) >Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fB5Ku2D09805 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 21:56:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 21:56:02 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: solution: Re: off-topic: cvs server: sticky tag `1.90' for file `scripts/make-release' is not a branch Message-ID: <20011205205602.GA9785@titan.klemm.gtn.com> References: <20011205204846.GA9437@titan.klemm.gtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011205204846.GA9437@titan.klemm.gtn.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE SMP X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 09:48:46PM +0100, Andreas Klemm wrote: > What happend, I get this now in my CVS repo ... >=20 > cvs server: sticky tag `1.90' for file `scripts/make-release' is not a br= anch > cvs [server aborted]: correct above errors first! > cvs commit: saving log message in /tmp/cvsjpyyT2 google knows the answer... ;-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/info-cvs/message/2603 Andreas /// --=20 Andreas Klemm - Powered by FreeBSD Need a magic printfilter today ? http://www.apsfilter.org/ Songs from our band >> 64Bits << http://www.64bits.de Inofficial band pages with add-on stuff http://www.apsfilter.org/64bits.ht= ml --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Weitere Infos: siehe http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8Donid3o+lGxvbLoRAuKLAJ9CjFdqezHEk0O1VpZmicDeSZ+UnQCfd32P EDu4adpaXjBY36nTteepSlE= =qtpE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 6 13: 4:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from void.reseau.net (void.reseau.net [194.88.120.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D34C437B436 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:59:48 -0800 (PST) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org From: contact@veridis.com subject: FileCrypt SDK - Your new security library Date: 6 Dec 2001 00:00:00 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/Related; boundary="============_-1204551010==_mr============" ; type="text/html" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --============_-1204551010==_mr============ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1204551010==_ma============" --============_-1204551010==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Developers who need to implement strong security in their applications will find the FileCrypt SDK library fits their needs perfectly. Find out for yourself... Obtain the 30-day free evaluation after you fill out the form you find at http://www.veridis.com/filecryptsdk/fcsdk_evaluation_request.pdf. Supporting the standards in strong cryptography, we have designed FileCrypt SDK for speed and easy integration with third party software. In addition, our experts can assist you should you be on a strict deadline... FileCrypt SDK is the ideal multi-platform toolkit to add security features to any e-commerce application: It gives easy access to all functions needed to make use of the OpenPGP Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), totally compliant with the IETF RFC 2440 OpenPGP standard. Amongst others, it contains the functions to create keypairs, to encrypt and sign documents and messages, to certify keys, ... It also allows communication with the other elements of the OpenPGP PKI such as posting keys to a key server as well as retrieving keys from a key server. FileCrypt SDK also contains calls to PGP/MIME functions, specifically intended to achieve secure e-mail messaging according to the PGP/MIME standard as described in the IETF RFC 2015. Its Java-like interface adds a familiar look for all modern-time developers and allows the use of the library in all kinds of environments. Thanks to the open architecture, developers can add their own modules or replace existing modules by their own implementations. The Automatic Garbage Collector is probably a feature most developers will appreciate a lot, allowing them not to worry about disposing the objects they create, thus avoiding memory leaks - totally automatically. Full compatibility with the PGP 6 extensions is also offered (User's photograph and X.509 certificates). FileCrypt is based on a multi-purpose library and therefore includes useful additional services like thread, file, memory, list & collection management, ... FileCrypt SDK also comes with a clear HTML documentation and many examples, making the learning process as short as possible. Veridis offers the library on various platforms, making OpenPGP encryption available on Windows, any Unix implementation, Mac OS and Symbian. Implementations on other platforms will follow. For further information, visit http://www.veridis.com or send a message to info@veridis.com. CONTACT: Axel de Landtsheer Veridis 156 rue Berckmans B-1060 Brussels, Belgium Phone: +32 2 543 04 00 Fax: +32 2 537 51 55 http://www.veridis.com --============_-1204551010==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" FileCrypt SDK - Your new security Library
 
 
 

Developers who need to implement strong security in their applications will find the FileCrypt SDK library fits their needs perfectly.

 
Find out for yourself...
Obtain the 30-day free evaluation after you fill out the form you find at http://www.veridis.com/filecryptsdk/fcsdk_evaluation_request.pdf.

Supporting the standards in strong cryptography, we have designed FileCrypt SDK for speed and easy integration with third party software.

In addition, our experts can assist you should you be on a strict deadline... 
  
 
FileCrypt SDK is the ideal multi-platform toolkit to add security features to any e-commerce application:
  • It gives easy access to all functions needed to make use of the OpenPGP Public Key Infrastructure (PKI), totally compliant with the IETF RFC 2440 OpenPGP standard. Amongst others, it contains the functions to create keypairs, to encrypt and sign documents and messages, to certify keys, ... It also allows communication with the other elements of the OpenPGP PKI such as posting keys to a key server as well as retrieving keys from a key server. 
      
  • FileCrypt SDK also contains calls to PGP/MIME functions, specifically intended to achieve secure e-mail messaging according to the PGP/MIME standard as described in the IETF RFC 2015.  
     
  • Its Java-like interface adds a familiar look for all modern-time developers and allows the use of the library in all kinds of environments.  
     
  • Thanks to the open architecture, developers can add their own modules or replace existing modules by their own implementations.  
     
  • The Automatic Garbage Collector is probably a feature most developers will appreciate a lot, allowing them not to worry about disposing the objects they create, thus avoiding memory leaks - totally automatically.  
     
  • Full compatibility with the PGP 6 extensions is also offered (User's photograph and X.509 certificates).  
     
  • FileCrypt is based on a multi-purpose library and therefore includes useful additional services like thread, file, memory, list & collection management, ...  
     
  • FileCrypt SDK also comes with a clear HTML documentation and many examples, making the learning process as short as possible.  
     
Veridis offers the library on various platforms, making OpenPGP encryption available on Windows, any Unix implementation, Mac OS and Symbian. Implementations on other platforms will follow.
For further information, visit http://www.veridis.com or send a message to info@veridis.com


CONTACT:
Axel de Landtsheer
Veridis 
156 rue Berckmans
B-1060  Brussels, Belgium
Phone: +32 2 543 04 00
Fax: +32 2 537 51 55

 
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majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 6 16:22:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.ieg.com.br (huxley.protocoloweb.com.br [200.185.63.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B66CD37B405 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 16:22:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from TmpStr (200-207-52-210.dsl.telesp.net.br [200.207.52.210]) by smtp.ieg.com.br (ieG relay/8.9.3) with SMTP id fB70LuD67603 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:21:57 -0200 (BRST) Message-Id: <200112070021.fB70LuD67603@smtp.ieg.com.br> Reply-To: "Keila - Curitiba" From: "Keila - Curitiba" To: "" Organization: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Subject: CONVITE HP ALERTA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:26:01 -0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Olá! Veja meu site pessoal. Basta clicar no endereço abaixo. GARANTO SER SUI-GENERIS - CLIQUE ABAIXO: http://www.pastorinha.atfreeweb.com Mais de 162.000 internautas visitaram a PG., existe 6 Álbuns: Se você quiser, por favor, indique minha Home Page, a outros Internautas. Mais detalhes, se comunique, passe um e-mail, que responderei brevemente. Dentro da Home Page, ao lado das fotos, você poderá saber muito mais sobre mim! Obrigada. e-mail: arosadesaron@zipmail.com.br Beijos:- Keila - Curitiba - Pr - Podes falar comigo, direto dela. Brevemente uma Carta Aberta. - Embora derrubem a página eu a subo em 3 horas novamente. "Esta mensagem é enviada com a complacência da nova legislação sobre correio eletrônico, Seção 301, Parágrafo (a) (2) (c) Decreto S. 1618, Título Terceiro aprovado pelo "105º Congresso Base das Normativas Internacionais sobre o SPAM". Este E-mail não poderá ser considerado SPAM quando incluir uma forma de ser removido. Para ser removido de futuros correios, simplesmente responda indicando no Assunto: REMOVER" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 6 16:56:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.ieg.com.br (huxley.protocoloweb.com.br [200.185.63.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 937F737B416 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 16:55:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from TmpStr (200-207-52-210.dsl.telesp.net.br [200.207.52.210]) by smtp.ieg.com.br (ieG relay/8.9.3) with SMTP id fB70t4D95749 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:55:05 -0200 (BRST) Message-Id: <200112070055.fB70t4D95749@smtp.ieg.com.br> Reply-To: "Keila - Curitiba" From: "Keila - Curitiba" To: "" Organization: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Subject: CONVITE HP ALERTA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:59:08 -0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Olá! Veja meu site pessoal. Basta clicar no endereço abaixo. GARANTO SER SUI-GENERIS - CLIQUE ABAIXO: http://www.pastorinha.atfreeweb.com Mais de 162.000 internautas visitaram a PG., existe 6 Álbuns: Se você quiser, por favor, indique minha Home Page, a outros Internautas. Mais detalhes, se comunique, passe um e-mail, que responderei brevemente. Dentro da Home Page, ao lado das fotos, você poderá saber muito mais sobre mim! Obrigada. e-mail: arosadesaron@zipmail.com.br Beijos:- Keila - Curitiba - Pr - Podes falar comigo, direto dela. Brevemente uma Carta Aberta. - Embora derrubem a página eu a subo em 3 horas novamente. "Esta mensagem é enviada com a complacência da nova legislação sobre correio eletrônico, Seção 301, Parágrafo (a) (2) (c) Decreto S. 1618, Título Terceiro aprovado pelo "105º Congresso Base das Normativas Internacionais sobre o SPAM". Este E-mail não poderá ser considerado SPAM quando incluir uma forma de ser removido. Para ser removido de futuros correios, simplesmente responda indicando no Assunto: REMOVER" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 5:15: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 044DC37B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 05:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with UUCP id fB7DEuG98241; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:14:56 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB7DAYU44662; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:10:34 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200112071310.fB7DAYU44662@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Trent Tobias Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Companies References: <20011202083430.14337.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20011202083430.14337.qmail@web21209.mail.yahoo.com> ; from Trent Tobias "Sun, 02 Dec 2001 00:34:30 PST." Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 13:10:34 +0000 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Apart from iXsystems, are there any BSD consulting > firms out there? FreeBSD Services, Ltd (UK) M -- o Mark Murray \_ FreeBSD Services Limited O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 8:19:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A740B37B419 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 16CNj3-000Mee-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:19:49 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id fB7GJn448779 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:19:49 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:19:49 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Can someone explain the Passport/Kerberos connection? Message-ID: <20011207161949.B48707@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have a basic understanding how Kerberos works, with tickets, encryption, and authentication. I guess my real question is how is this implemented in http? How does Passport use it to lock an identity to one session on a browser somewhere? jm -- "Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe." - Abraham Lincoln To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 8:41:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stinky.akitanet.co.uk (akita-14.dsl.easynet.co.uk [217.206.114.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F17837B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from paul@localhost) by stinky.akitanet.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id fB7GfWi01811 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:41:32 GMT (envelope-from paul) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Paul Robinson To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:41:32 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OK, so we're all now sick of the 'Feeding the Troll' thread and although this is kind of related, hopefully we won't end up in the same hell that thread led to. If you don't like this (and you should like it - if you're a reasonable person, anyway), flame me personally. :-) http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23245.html I know this is Linux-orientated but many of the points apply just as well to FBSD and other 'nixen. Just thought that after the madness of the last week or so, that this might make some people here, like me, realise how close to a 'parent-proof' desktop environment we have. -- Paul Robinson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 8:51:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alive.znep.com (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-448.oz.net [216.39.145.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA0D37B417 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:51:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA37166; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:50:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:50:30 -0800 (PST) From: Marc Slemko To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Can someone explain the Passport/Kerberos connection? In-Reply-To: <20011207161949.B48707@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, j mckitrick wrote: > > I have a basic understanding how Kerberos works, with tickets, > encryption, and authentication. I guess my real question is how is this > implemented in http? How does Passport use it to lock an identity to > one session on a browser somewhere? Passport doesn't use it AFAIK. Normally, Passport just uses cookies. With IE6 and WinXP, it uses "Passport authentication", which isn't publicly documented AFAIK but I'm pretty sure it isn't kerberos based. It may be NTLM based. One of the many promises Microsoft has made is that they will move Passport to using kerberos. But that is just vapor right now AFAIK. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 8:55: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.highperformance.net (ip31.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1866037B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by server.highperformance.net (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fB7Grfh23480; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:53:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@highperformance.net) X-Authentication-Warning: server.highperformance.net: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:53:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server.highperformance.net To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Can someone explain the Passport/Kerberos connection? In-Reply-To: <20011207161949.B48707@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, j mckitrick wrote: > I have a basic understanding how Kerberos works, with tickets, > encryption, and authentication. I guess my real question is how is this > implemented in http? How does Passport use it to lock an identity to > one session on a browser somewhere? Got a URL? I am slowly working on my Kerberos knowledge these days. I would venture that it is just like any other kerberized app except that it somehow supports the non-persistent http connection. It might use the tickets to reauthenticate with each new GET or it might put an expiration time on a session. One would be more secure. The latter would use less overhead. I would also guess that Kerberos is used for authentication only since SSL is well supported for encrypting network traffic in web servers. Later, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 8:59:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from square.cnd.mcgill.ca (square.CND.McGill.CA [132.206.114.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3041B37B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:59:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mat@localhost) by square.cnd.mcgill.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03316 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:59:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mat) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:59:36 -0500 From: Mathew Kanner To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: laugh at the dumb admin Message-ID: <20011207115936.K97278@cnd.mcgill.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: I speak for myself, operating in Montreal, CANADA Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just when I thought I've shot myself in the foot in every conceivable way, I mounted /usr nosuid instead of /tmp on a machine that's locked in an office that won't be opened for a couple of months. Sure makes su'ing root hard. Well, at least this way I can't accidently kill the sshd server. --Mat -- Pinky: Egad! You astound me, Brain! Brain: That's a simple task, Pinky. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 9:15:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97FAD37B41A for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:15:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fB7HFNi78811; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:15:24 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Paul Robinson" , References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:15:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The author of the article is obviously laboring under some serious misconceptions. Most of what he writes seems to be an apology for Linux being different from Windows, and he spends most of his time trying to prove how closely Linux can approach the look and feel and ergonomy of Windows. He seems to overlook the fact that he is effectively negating the whole utility of Linux; after all, if you want something that looks and works like Windows, your best bet is to install Windows, not an imitation. He also says: "More and more, people get Linux from a commercial distribution packager, install it (often with help from members of a local Linux Users Group), and don't tamper with the kernel or other "underlying" system processes at all." In other words, buy Linux just as you buy Windows, and become dependent on a Linux packager instead of Microsoft. What's to be gained by this? You're in the same rut either way. You are still beholden to a commercial vendor, you are still paying money for your software, and you are still dead in the water if something goes wrong, since you never bothered to figure out how anything behind the pretty package actually works. If you want a commercial, turnkey desktop package, buy Windows--or, if you can't stand Microsoft, buy a Mac. This article is further evidence that a lot of Linux users are quite clueless. I don't know exactly what motivates them to toss all the strengths of UNIX aside and spend their time reinventing the wheel, but it seems pretty pointless. Do people really hate Microsoft so much that they are willing to increase their own work and inconvenience by orders of magnitude just to have whatever Microsoft provides in every detail except the name? Robin goes on further to say: "None of these advances in Linux usability have much to with "classic" command line Linux, but so it goes. The ever-improving GUI (Graphical User Interface) is the future of desktop computing, no matter what operating system is running behind the user's monitor." Seems Robin has forgotten that UNIX is a server operating system. A GUI may be the future of the desktop (actually, that future is already here under Windows, which he seems to ignore), but why must the desktop be the future of Linux, or of any other version of UNIX? It's kind of like buying a high-performance racing car, and then trying to prove that it can haul sand and manure just as well as any pick-up truck. But if your purpose is to haul sand and manure, why not just buy the pick-up? My concern is that Robin and others like him (or her--not sure if it's a he or she) are going to kill off UNIX by trying to make it work as a desktop--where it will never come anywhere close to Windows, in all likelihood--while ignoring its obvious superiority as a server. Just because some of the Linux kiddies have never _seen_ a server doesn't mean that servers aren't important, too. I don't think that Hotmail and EverQuest servers are running Windows 98. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 9:59:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76DC437B41B for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:58:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from duth.gr (emily.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.21]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB7HwgY18875; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:58:42 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 19:58:42 +0200 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: I've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't understand why you are so hostile towards unix on the desktop. I'm probably biased since I've been using unix workstations since far longer than I care to remember, I guess, but why not? Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > The author of the article is obviously laboring under some serious > misconceptions. Most of what he writes seems to be an apology for Linux > being different from Windows, and he spends most of his time trying to prove > how closely Linux can approach the look and feel and ergonomy of Windows. > He seems to overlook the fact that he is effectively negating the whole > utility of Linux; after all, if you want something that looks and works like > Windows, your best bet is to install Windows, not an imitation. Nowadays I mostly use PCs for desktop workstations at home and at work, and all of them run FreeBSD (from my smp box at home down to a tiny libretto). Granted, if I wanted the looks and works of Windows, I'd be using it instead, but the fact that I might need software that can make stupid presentations like StarOffice doesn't mean that I am looking for "looks and works" of Windows. It means just that - I want to be able to make stupid presentations with which to bore to death colleagues at meetings, and it's nice that I can do that with FreeBSD, since I don't have to buy and learn a non unix OS to do just that. Another example is Windows autorun. I liked that idea and quickly hacked some scripts that duplicate that functionality, because it is quite handy. Does the fact that I like the idea of my media being automounted when I insert them and apropriate actions being taken (ie start playing if audio cd, fire up mplayer fullscreen if it contains one avi or open up a rox filer window in any other case) mean that I should be using windows instead? Nope, no again. It just means that although I value the fine grained control I have with unix, when I'm just back from work and I just want to listen to some soft music I appreciate the simplicity of merely inserting a CD in my DVD drive and not having to mount it and start the apropriate application manually. > He also says: > > "More and more, people get Linux from a commercial distribution packager, > install it (often with help from members of a local Linux Users Group), and > don't tamper with the kernel or other "underlying" system processes at all." > > In other words, buy Linux just as you buy Windows, and become dependent on a > Linux packager instead of Microsoft. What's to be gained by this? You're > in the same rut either way. You are still beholden to a commercial vendor, > you are still paying money for your software, and you are still dead in the > water if something goes wrong, since you never bothered to figure out how > anything behind the pretty package actually works. If you want a > commercial, turnkey desktop package, buy Windows--or, if you can't stand > Microsoft, buy a Mac. I fail to see your point - the users that can't be bothered to explore the underlying system will be "victims" of commercial vendors anyway, wether it is BSD or Windows XP. I watched a Mandrake 8.1 installation the other day, and it was as smooth as Windows XP. The installed system "just worked" and my otherwise unix-clueless colleague happily went on with his business. If it is good enough for him, then why not use it? Should he be willing to tamper with the underlying system to be entitled to use it? I think not. > This article is further evidence that a lot of Linux users are quite > clueless. I don't know exactly what motivates them to toss all the > strengths of UNIX aside and spend their time reinventing the wheel, but it > seems pretty pointless. Do people really hate Microsoft so much that they > are willing to increase their own work and inconvenience by orders of > magnitude just to have whatever Microsoft provides in every detail except > the name? No argument here, a lot of users are quite clueless, however I disagree with your "reinventing the wheel" bit. I, for one, am thankful that the windowmaker crew "reinvented" the wheel for example, since I've been using it exculsively for longer than I care to remember. I am also grateful that Opera decided to reinvent the wheel, since the result is a very neat and usable browser. I am also really happy that the rox crew decided to "reinvent the wheel" and make yet another unix file manager, since rox filer has got to be the simplest, fastest and most unobtrusive file manager I've ever used. It's not really "reinventing" but "reimplementing" the wheel, and sometimes this isn't bad. > Robin goes on further to say: > > "None of these advances in Linux usability have much to with "classic" > command line Linux, but so it goes. The ever-improving GUI (Graphical User > Interface) is the future of desktop computing, no matter what operating > system is running behind the user's monitor." > > Seems Robin has forgotten that UNIX is a server operating system. A GUI may > be the future of the desktop (actually, that future is already here under > Windows, which he seems to ignore), but why must the desktop be the future > of Linux, or of any other version of UNIX? I beg to differ. I do not think that "UNIX is a server operating system". It is a versatile system that can be morphed to whatever you want, from embedded systems to huge clusters of servers. Why not the desktop too? Thank $DEITY Apple didn't have that point of view, or we'd have yet another totally new OS and not MacOS X. > It's kind of like buying a high-performance racing car, and then trying to > prove that it can haul sand and manure just as well as any pick-up truck. > But if your purpose is to haul sand and manure, why not just buy the > pick-up? Your analogy is flawed - UNIX can be instantiated both as a pick-up truck and a racing car, IMHO. Just because Porsche only makes sports cars, it doesn't mean that this is how it should be done; Mercedes-Benz not only makes awesome cars, they also do impressive roadsters, huge bloody trucks and nice buses too. > My concern is that Robin and others like him (or her--not sure if it's a he > or she) are going to kill off UNIX by trying to make it work as a > desktop--where it will never come anywhere close to Windows, in all > likelihood--while ignoring its obvious superiority as a server. Just > because some of the Linux kiddies have never _seen_ a server doesn't mean > that servers aren't important, too. I don't think that Hotmail and > EverQuest servers are running Windows 98. --kkonstan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 10:37:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AE1F37B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:37:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16CPs3-0008Mv-00; Fri, 07 Dec 2001 10:37:15 -0800 Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:37:14 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > utility of Linux; after all, if you want something that looks and works like > Windows, your best bet is to install Windows, not an imitation. That is not their goal. They want something better. > In other words, buy Linux just as you buy Windows, and become dependent on a > Linux packager instead of Microsoft. What's to be gained by this? You're > in the same rut either way. You are still beholden to a commercial vendor, Who cares? What is wrong with having multiple choices? > anything behind the pretty package actually works. If you want a > commercial, turnkey desktop package, buy Windows--or, if you can't stand > Microsoft, buy a Mac. I wouldn't want to be limited to just two choices. > This article is further evidence that a lot of Linux users are quite > clueless. That is irrelevant. (Everyone has to begin with no knowledge.) Anyways, the article also provides evidence that many Linux users are not clueless. > I don't know exactly what motivates them to toss all the > strengths of UNIX aside and spend their time reinventing the wheel, but it > seems pretty pointless. Often this has to do with hobbies and particular interests. > Do people really hate Microsoft so much that they > are willing to increase their own work and inconvenience by orders of > magnitude just to have whatever Microsoft provides in every detail except > the name? It is because Microsoft does not "provide in every detail" what other operating systems provide. For example, I haven't seen a Microsoft Windows 98 box come by default with any tools for remote text-only login for administration and nothing (by default) for remote GUI administration. I have never seen a Windows 98 box by default that can be used to manage your own email and allows using RBL lists to stop spam. (Using an idea from another email, Windows does not provide "the fine grained control".) In other words, I can't pick one or the other and have every feature. But I can pick one that is *easier* to customize to provide functionality that nearer matches both. > be the future of the desktop (actually, that future is already here under > Windows, which he seems to ignore), but why must the desktop be the future > of Linux, or of any other version of UNIX? Why be so limited? > My concern is that Robin and others like him (or her--not sure if it's a he > or she) are going to kill off UNIX by trying to make it work as a > desktop--where it will never come anywhere close to Windows, in all I am not sure why you continue to believe that Unix shouldn't be a desktop. My mother has used Unix as her personal computer for a couple years now. She surfs the web, chats, sends emails, looks at photos, prints letters, etc. Plus the same computer works as the router for the home network and handles some mail. It is a lot more stable than her previous operating system (which is why she changed), and it is a lot easier to update and manage remotely. Plus, I can use it and help with it without having to travel to it. > likelihood--while ignoring its obvious superiority as a server. Just And there is nothing wrong with it being obviously superior as a desktop. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 11:13:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7066437B41C for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 1797 invoked by uid 100); 7 Dec 2001 19:13:38 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15377.5346.169020.721942@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:13:38 -0600 To: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Cc: Anthony Atkielski , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Konstantinos Konstantinidis types: > I don't understand why you are so hostile towards unix on the desktop. > I'm probably biased since I've been using unix workstations since far > longer than I care to remember, I guess, but why not? > > Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > > > The author of the article is obviously laboring under some serious > > misconceptions. Most of what he writes seems to be an apology for Linux > > being different from Windows, and he spends most of his time trying to prove > > how closely Linux can approach the look and feel and ergonomy of Windows. > > He seems to overlook the fact that he is effectively negating the whole > > utility of Linux; after all, if you want something that looks and works like > > Windows, your best bet is to install Windows, not an imitation. > > Nowadays I mostly use PCs for desktop workstations at home and at work, and > all of them run FreeBSD (from my smp box at home down to a tiny libretto). > Granted, if I wanted the looks and works of Windows, I'd be using it instead, > but the fact that I might need software that can make stupid presentations > like StarOffice doesn't mean that I am looking for "looks and works" of > Windows. It means just that - I want to be able to make stupid presentations > with which to bore to death colleagues at meetings, and it's nice that I can > do that with FreeBSD, since I don't have to buy and learn a non unix OS to > do just that. > > Another example is Windows autorun. I liked that idea and quickly hacked some > scripts that duplicate that functionality, because it is quite handy. Does > the fact that I like the idea of my media being automounted when I insert them > and apropriate actions being taken (ie start playing if audio cd, fire up > mplayer fullscreen if it contains one avi or open up a rox filer window in any > other case) mean that I should be using windows instead? Nope, no again. It > just means that although I value the fine grained control I have with unix, > when I'm just back from work and I just want to listen to some soft music I > appreciate the simplicity of merely inserting a CD in my DVD drive and not > having to mount it and start the apropriate application manually. > > > He also says: > > > > "More and more, people get Linux from a commercial distribution packager, > > install it (often with help from members of a local Linux Users Group), and > > don't tamper with the kernel or other "underlying" system processes at all." > > > > In other words, buy Linux just as you buy Windows, and become dependent on a > > Linux packager instead of Microsoft. What's to be gained by this? You're > > in the same rut either way. You are still beholden to a commercial vendor, > > you are still paying money for your software, and you are still dead in the > > water if something goes wrong, since you never bothered to figure out how > > anything behind the pretty package actually works. If you want a > > commercial, turnkey desktop package, buy Windows--or, if you can't stand > > Microsoft, buy a Mac. > > I fail to see your point - the users that can't be bothered to explore the > underlying system will be "victims" of commercial vendors anyway, wether it > is BSD or Windows XP. I watched a Mandrake 8.1 installation the other day, > and it was as smooth as Windows XP. The installed system "just worked" and > my otherwise unix-clueless colleague happily went on with his business. If > it is good enough for him, then why not use it? Should he be willing to > tamper with the underlying system to be entitled to use it? I think not. > > > This article is further evidence that a lot of Linux users are quite > > clueless. I don't know exactly what motivates them to toss all the > > strengths of UNIX aside and spend their time reinventing the wheel, but it > > seems pretty pointless. Do people really hate Microsoft so much that they > > are willing to increase their own work and inconvenience by orders of > > magnitude just to have whatever Microsoft provides in every detail except > > the name? > > No argument here, a lot of users are quite clueless, however I disagree with > your "reinventing the wheel" bit. I, for one, am thankful that the windowmaker > crew "reinvented" the wheel for example, since I've been using it exculsively > for longer than I care to remember. I am also grateful that Opera decided to > reinvent the wheel, since the result is a very neat and usable browser. I am > also really happy that the rox crew decided to "reinvent the wheel" and make > yet another unix file manager, since rox filer has got to be the simplest, > fastest and most unobtrusive file manager I've ever used. It's not really > "reinventing" but "reimplementing" the wheel, and sometimes this isn't bad. > > > Robin goes on further to say: > > > > "None of these advances in Linux usability have much to with "classic" > > command line Linux, but so it goes. The ever-improving GUI (Graphical User > > Interface) is the future of desktop computing, no matter what operating > > system is running behind the user's monitor." > > > > Seems Robin has forgotten that UNIX is a server operating system. A GUI may > > be the future of the desktop (actually, that future is already here under > > Windows, which he seems to ignore), but why must the desktop be the future > > of Linux, or of any other version of UNIX? > > I beg to differ. I do not think that "UNIX is a server operating system". It > is a versatile system that can be morphed to whatever you want, from embedded > systems to huge clusters of servers. Why not the desktop too? Thank $DEITY Apple > didn't have that point of view, or we'd have yet another totally new OS and > not MacOS X. > > > It's kind of like buying a high-performance racing car, and then trying to > > prove that it can haul sand and manure just as well as any pick-up truck. > > But if your purpose is to haul sand and manure, why not just buy the > > pick-up? > > Your analogy is flawed - UNIX can be instantiated both as a pick-up truck and > a racing car, IMHO. Just because Porsche only makes sports cars, it doesn't > mean that this is how it should be done; Mercedes-Benz not only makes awesome > cars, they also do impressive roadsters, huge bloody trucks and nice buses > too. > > > My concern is that Robin and others like him (or her--not sure if it's a he > > or she) are going to kill off UNIX by trying to make it work as a > > desktop--where it will never come anywhere close to Windows, in all > > likelihood--while ignoring its obvious superiority as a server. Just > > because some of the Linux kiddies have never _seen_ a server doesn't mean > > that servers aren't important, too. I don't think that Hotmail and > > EverQuest servers are running Windows 98. > > --kkonstan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 11:15:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9357F37B417 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:15:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 1869 invoked by uid 100); 7 Dec 2001 19:15:43 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15377.5471.140216.42087@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:15:43 -0600 To: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Konstantinos Konstantinidis types: > I don't understand why you are so hostile towards unix on the desktop. > I'm probably biased since I've been using unix workstations since far > longer than I care to remember, I guess, but why not? It's because he's a religious fanatic. He can't admit that anything could be better on the Desktop than his beloved Windows. Even worse, he can't see that other people might have other needs than he does, so that even though Windows is *his* best choice, it might not be theirs. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. 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If this wasn't you, then to remove yourself from our free newsletter service, visit this page - http://213.180.33.225/site1/remove/ Remove your email and you will not receive any further correspondence. *********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 14:17:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A7AC37B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:17:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fB7MH2v18307; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:17:02 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:16:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Konstantinos writes: > I don't understand why you are so hostile towards > unix on the desktop. I'm not hostile towards it at all. I just recognize that UNIX is not a desktop OS, at least not compared to Windows. I'm amazed that so many people try so hard to prove otherwise. The only possible motivation I can think of for this is that a lot of people who feel this way use UNIX (and especially Linux, the most primitive and overhyped version of UNIX) only because they hate Microsoft, and will go to any extreme, expend any effort, and suffer any inconvenience just so that they can have something that looks just like Windows but lacks the Microsoft brand. For more rational people, who choose systems that fit their requirements, UNIX logically becomes the server, and Windows logically becomes the desktop. Maybe someday that will change, but right now, that's the logical arrangement. > I'm probably biased since I've been using unix > workstations since far longer than I care to remember, > I guess, but why not? UNIX workstations and today's ordinary desktop are not the same thing. A consumer or office desktop runs a lot of commodity applications that are also run by other desktops in other homes and offices. Most users of this type of desktop have never come anywhere near UNIX, and would have nothing to gain from a UNIX workstation (and much to lose, given their cost). > Nowadays I mostly use PCs for desktop workstations > at home and at work, and all of them run FreeBSD > (from my smp box at home down to a tiny libretto). Well, either you are a rare exception to the rule, or UNIX desktop users keep an extremely low profile. Only one user in 100 to my Web site is running any flavor of UNIX, for example. Macs are eight times more popular, and they are still a small minority. > It means just that - I want to be able to make > stupid presentations with which to bore to death > colleagues at meetings, and it's nice that I can > do that with FreeBSD, since I don't have to buy > and learn a non unix OS to do just that. What do you do when someone sends you a presentation in PowerPoint? > I fail to see your point - the users that can't > be bothered to explore the underlying system will > be "victims" of commercial vendors anyway, wether it > is BSD or Windows XP. Exactly. So, if the result is the same, why do it the hard way with UNIX when one can do it the easy way with Windows? Furthermore, the results aren't exactly the same--Windows provides a more complete desktop environment. So, unless you are specifically trying to avoid Windows for some unfathomable reason (what might that be?), why not just install Windows? > I watched a Mandrake 8.1 installation the other day, > and it was as smooth as Windows XP. The installed > system "just worked" and my otherwise unix-clueless > colleague happily went on with his business. Maybe he can send me a summary of his experiences. Oh, it has to be in Word or PageMaster format, sorry. > It's not really "reinventing" but "reimplementing" > the wheel, and sometimes this isn't bad. It's difficult to see what the point of this is for the average computer user. > I beg to differ. I do not think that "UNIX is a > server operating system". You don't need multiuser timesharing in a desktop OS, nor do you need support for remote teletypes. > It is a versatile system that can be morphed to > whatever you want ... There's no such thing. Most operating systems can be _forced_ into just about any role, and UNIX is no exception; but no operating system can mutate into an optimal OS for every conceivable application, or even for more than a small minority of all possible applications. > Thank $DEITY Apple didn't have that point of view, or > we'd have yet another totally new OS and not MacOS X. Apple didn't have the money to write a new OS, otherwise it would have. Using a UNIX base was a cost-cutting measure. And even UNIX would be better on the desktop than the _old_ Mac OS, as far as stability and reliablity is concerned. > Your analogy is flawed - UNIX can be instantiated > both as a pick-up truck and a racing car, IMHO. Real-time process control, timesharing, dedicated batch, and dedicated desktop? I don't think so. I've never seen an OS that can do all that efficiently, and there's nothing magic about UNIX. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 14:25:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E020237B417 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:25:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB7MOvx15443; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:24:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <005701c17f6e$01080f00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , References: Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:24:56 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeremy writes: > That is not their goal. They want something better. Then why are they installing Linux, which is worse? > Who cares? What is wrong with having multiple > choices? What good are multiple choices if they all lead to the same result? > I wouldn't want to be limited to just two choices. So Linux and Windows alone wouldn't be enough? How many different desktops do you have? > That is irrelevant. (Everyone has to begin with > no knowledge.) Everyone begins with no knowledge, but some finish that way, too. > Anyways, the article also provides evidence > that many Linux users are not clueless. Where? > Often this has to do with hobbies and particular > interests. Then let them admit that it's a hobby and a special interest, instead of trying to deceive others into believing that UNIX is somehow a realistic alternative to a Windows desktop. > For example, I haven't seen a Microsoft Windows > 98 box come by default with any tools for remote > text-only login for administration and nothing > (by default) for remote GUI administration. Windows 98 isn't really designed for remote administration at all. It's a desktop OS. > I have never seen a Windows 98 box by default > that can be used to manage your own email and > allows using RBL lists to stop spam. I have never seen a Windows 98 user that would understand either of these concepts. > But I can pick one that is *easier* to customize > to provide functionality that nearer matches both. Not everyone has time on his hands to customize his OS until it actually does what he requires. > Why be so limited? Exactly. Why so much emphasis on the desktop, while ignoring everything else? Why try to fight the battle on the enemy's turf? Why does "winning" the desktop take priority over every other conceivable use for the operating system? All of this seems very irrational--unless it is motivated by hatred for Microsoft. > I am not sure why you continue to believe that > Unix shouldn't be a desktop. I'm not saying it _shouldn't_ be a desktop, I just wonder why any objective person would choose it as a desktop when Windows is so manifestly superior for that purpose. Even a Microsoft-basher could still choose the Mac, which is better than UNIX. > My mother has used Unix as her personal computer > for a couple years now. Who set up the machine? > Plus, I can use it and help with it without > having to travel to it. If she was able to install it and it is stable and adequate for her needs, why does she require your help? > And there is nothing wrong with it being obviously > superior as a desktop. There would be nothing wrong with it if it were true, but it's not. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 14:26:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC90D37B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:26:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB7MQIx15451; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:26:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <006001c17f6e$362be120$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" Cc: References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <15377.5471.140216.42087@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:26:18 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oo-wee-oo! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Meyer" To: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" Cc: Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 20:15 Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. > Konstantinos Konstantinidis types: > > I don't understand why you are so hostile towards unix on the desktop. > > I'm probably biased since I've been using unix workstations since far > > longer than I care to remember, I guess, but why not? > > It's because he's a religious fanatic. He can't admit that anything > could be better on the Desktop than his beloved Windows. Even worse, > he can't see that other people might have other needs than he does, so > that even though Windows is *his* best choice, it might not be theirs. > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 14:33:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CD56237B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:33:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 7523 invoked by uid 100); 7 Dec 2001 22:33:42 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:33:42 -0600 To: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Konstantinos writes: > For more rational people, who choose systems that fit their requirements, > UNIX logically becomes the server, and Windows logically becomes the > desktop. That's a pair of religious statements if I ever saw them. The hidden assumption is that "rational people" are just like Anthony, which is obviously false. Rational people actually look at the requirements and then reach conclusions, rather than mentioning that requirements exist then jumping to a conclusion. Just like there are environments where Unix isn't the logical choice for a server because it fails to meet a variety of requirements, there are also environments where Windows is not the logical choice for a desktop. But trying to convince Anthony that other people's requirements might be different from his is just like talking to any religious fanatic. They've made up their minds about what is and isn't right, and nothing will ever change their minds. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 14:35:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8173D37B419 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:35:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id fB7MZju25406; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:35:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA08930; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:35:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08926; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:35:42 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:35:42 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Real-time process control, timesharing, dedicated batch, and dedicated > desktop? I don't think so. I've never seen an OS that can do all that > efficiently, and there's nothing magic about UNIX. Actually, there is something magic about Unix. Unix, on its own, is so primitive, and any system can be built on top of it. I am now to the point where I use exclusively MacOS X on my laptop instead of the Windows PC on my desk at work. MacOS X really is Unix, but it has a bautiful interface and brilliantly designed windowing system on top of it. Not your style? I have a FreeBSD firewall sitting in the closet here. Or a satellite communications gateway running Linux in the next cube over. Want to build a real-time system? Start with Unix. Want to build a batch processing system? Start with Unix. Want a compute server to handle MATLAB for 120 people at a shot? Start with Unix. Unix is magical in a very important way. There is no magic. As a result, you are not forced into using your computer in ANY particular way and can use it in the way that best suits your needs. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 14:37:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F8AF37B436 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id fB7MbGu25508 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:37:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA09064 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:37:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09060 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:37:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:37:15 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD E'Zine Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is the FreeBSD E'Zine totally dead? The last issue I saw was in May. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 14:40:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF79537B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB7Mdtx15478; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:39:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:39:50 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > The hidden assumption is that "rational people" > are just like Anthony ... No. The not-so-hidden assumption is that the system that best meets the customers' requirements will tend to become dominant, because most customers are mostly rational. Since Windows is dominant, then, logically it meets the requirements of most customers, and so it is the rational choice. > Rational people actually look at the requirements > and then reach conclusions, rather than mentioning > that requirements exist then jumping to a conclusion. Their conclusions thus far seem to lead them overwhelmingly to Windows on the desktop. > Just like there are environments where Unix > isn't the logical choice for a server because it > fails to meet a variety of requirements, there > are also environments where Windows is not the > logical choice for a desktop. But they are a small minority of environments in both cases, and these exceptions do not invalidate the rule. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 14:43:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED2AB37B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:43:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fB7Mh1F21106; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:43:02 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <006c01c17f70$8782de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "James Howard" Cc: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , References: Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:42:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James writes: > Actually, there is something magic about Unix. Unix, > on its own, is so primitive, and any system can be > built on top of it. Yes, that occurred to me. But when you build heavily on a primitive system, you end up with a completely new system. > I am now to the point where I use exclusively > MacOS X on my laptop instead of the Windows > PC on my desk at work. MacOS X really is Unix, > but it has a bautiful interface and brilliantly > designed windowing system on top of it. Can you return to a console interface if you wish? Does it run X clients and servers? Can multiple users log into the system remotely? > Want to build a real-time system? Start with > Unix. Want to build a batch processing system? > Start with Unix. Want a compute server to handle > MATLAB for 120 people at a shot? Start with Unix. Want to build whatever your heart desires? Start with a boot record. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 14:48:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BC05C37B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:48:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 7958 invoked by uid 100); 7 Dec 2001 22:48:10 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:48:10 -0600 To: Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > The hidden assumption is that "rational people" > > are just like Anthony ... > No. The not-so-hidden assumption is that the system that best meets the > customers' requirements will tend to become dominant, because most customers > are mostly rational. This assumption is false. The dominant system will be the best-marketed one that meets the customers requirements, which is not the same thing as the one that best meets the customers requirements. > Since Windows is dominant, then, logically it meets the requirements > of most customers, and so it is the rational choice. You've moved from "best meets the customers requirements" to "meets the requirements of most customers", which are two different things. In either case, you don't know whether it is the rational choice for any particular use until you know the requirements of that case. > > Just like there are environments where Unix > > isn't the logical choice for a server because it > > fails to meet a variety of requirements, there > > are also environments where Windows is not the > > logical choice for a desktop. > But they are a small minority of environments in both cases, and these > exceptions do not invalidate the rule. No, but they invalidate your religiously pushing of the same solution for all uses in those two environments. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 14:48:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC58A37B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:48:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id fB7MmXb10868; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:48:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA09919; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:48:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09915; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:48:33 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:48:33 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <006c01c17f70$8782de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Can you return to a console interface if you wish? Does it run X clients > and servers? Can multiple users log into the system remotely? Yes. Yes. Yes. > Want to build whatever your heart desires? Start with a boot record. Want yo build whatever your heart desires? Start with a cloud of dust. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 15: 9:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05C9D37B417 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:09:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-175.wobline.de [212.68.69.183]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fB7N8oA06150; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:08:51 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (poison.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.5]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB7N9wW53730; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:10:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB7N8ca71106; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:08:38 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:08:36 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011208000836.A71052@tisys.org> Mail-Followup-To: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 04:33:42PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD poison.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 11:58PM up 9:18, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 04:33:42PM -0600, Mike Meyer stood up and spoke: > But trying to convince Anthony that other people's requirements might > be different from his is just like talking to any religious > fanatic. They've made up their minds about what is and isn't right, > and nothing will ever change their minds. There've been many things I faild to understand at all. One of these things is why someone invest a huge ammount of time, trying to convince people that Windows is the best desktop system. I guess I shall never understand what gain is achieved if people would agree to this, but for good reasons, they don't. This discussion has crawled to various FreeBSD mailing lists, and, well, if I were convinced that Windows was the better system, I'd stop bugging other people and simply use Windows. I don't need other people's "ok" in order to be able to use what I want to use, after all. I have always disliked any kind of generalization, i.e. I agree with Mike that what's best always depends of what is actually required. In that context, I can guarantee that FreeBSD is the desktop systems that best suits my needs (i.e. gives me what I want), and there are many other people who think the same way. This is called freedom of choice, and we cannot really argue about this, just as we cannot really argue about blue *generally* being a more beautiful color than red... Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 15:33:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4256E37B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:33:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a128.otenet.gr [212.205.215.128]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fB7NXTG12496; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 01:33:30 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB7NXVR15047; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 01:33:31 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 01:33:30 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-12-07 23:16:56, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Konstantinos writes: > > > I don't understand why you are so hostile towards > > unix on the desktop. > > I'm not hostile towards it at all. I just recognize that UNIX is not a > desktop OS, at least not compared to Windows. I'm amazed that so many > people try so hard to prove otherwise. Let's not try to prove anything for the next few months, shall we? It might be a lousy desktop for you, but it is (according to their needs, and work) a perfect desktop for a lot of others. Your personal opinion is justified, and you do have a right to have it, but others have a right to have one of their own. Do we have to go over "Unix is not a good desktop" over and over again, with each and every thread? :-( -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 15:52:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B2837B41D for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:52:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from duth.gr (foo.duth.gr [193.92.210.14]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB7NpnY27686; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 01:51:49 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 01:51:39 +0200 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: We've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > No. The not-so-hidden assumption is that the system that best meets the > customers' requirements will tend to become dominant, because most customers > are mostly rational. Since Windows is dominant, then, logically it meets > the requirements of most customers, and so it is the rational choice. Nope, it is the rational choise for *those* customers, not all. Speaking from my consulting experience, most customers are morons and if something dominates the market it is more due to their stupidity, effective marketing and network effects rather than rational choices based on well defined requirements. Anyway, I digress... let's pretend that Windows is dominant only because it meets the requirements of "most" customers. Apparently, "most" is a subset of "all" customers, so there exists a non-empty set of customers that can rationally, based on their requirements, choose something other than Windows, even for the desktop. Why does this bother you? Are other peoples choices with no direct or indirect effect on you affecting your happiness? If yes, seek therapy. If no, there is nothing further to discuss, let's all "just get along". > Their conclusions thus far seem to lead them overwhelmingly to Windows on > the desktop. Indeed. Does that mean that *I* should immediately cease to use FreeBSD and buy Windows XP? Nope, because popularity is not in my list of requirements, and the low popularity of unix versus windows on the desktop is not affecting what it can already do for me, which is everything I need and then some. > > Just like there are environments where Unix > > isn't the logical choice for a server because it > > fails to meet a variety of requirements, there > > are also environments where Windows is not the > > logical choice for a desktop. > > But they are a small minority of environments in both cases, and these > exceptions do not invalidate the rule. What bloody rule? The world is not black and white. If the majority chooses strawberry flavor and a small minority raspberry, the rule is still that people make different choices, not that people choose strawberry flavor as a rule but there are some weirdos that prefer raspberry. Is that concept so hard to grasp? Clearly you selected to use Windows, and I selected to use FreeBSD. Apparently you are happy with your decision, and trust me, I am happy with mine. I am happy that you are happy with your decision and I am not trying to convince you that your choice is wrong, because it most likely is not, for you. However, you are trying to convince me that I am wrong, and that FreeBSD is a poor choice and we are some kind of weird, microsoft-bashing unix-loving bigots or something. This is where you are mistaken. Frankly, I couldn't care less what you or anyone else is using, unless I have a contractual agreement to support it. It is you that for some reason cannot accept the FACT that some people might have valid reasons to use something other than what you and apparently the majority of people out there, has chosen. --kkonstan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 15:57:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.highperformance.net (ip31.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4D5037B417 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:57:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by server.highperformance.net (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fB7NvXp75433 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:57:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@highperformance.net) X-Authentication-Warning: server.highperformance.net: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:57:32 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server.highperformance.net To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Alternative to NIS / Hesiod Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have been searching for a centralized user database method that can interoperate with Kerberos. Can any of you recommend a particular method? Thanks, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 16:30:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B69137B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:30:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 9511 invoked by uid 100); 8 Dec 2001 00:30:54 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15377.24382.269850.329410@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:30:54 -0600 To: James Howard Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: References: <006c01c17f70$8782de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Howard types: > On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Want to build whatever your heart desires? Start with a boot record. > Want to build whatever your heart desires? Start with a cloud of dust. Actually, you should either use sand - as that's made of silicon - or physicists, depending on how close silicon is to whatever your heart desires. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 17: 6:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F056737B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:06:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.131.254.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.131.254] helo=blossom.cjclark.org) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16CVwo-00015l-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2001 17:06:35 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fB816WH20610 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:06:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:06:28 -0800 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Fw: Klingon Programmers Message-ID: <20011207170628.U8975@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thought this was worth a chuckle. ----- Forwarded message from Riaan Klopper ----- From: Riaan Klopper To: dc-stuff@dis.org Subject: Klingon Programmers Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:09:10 +0200 X-Copyright: This message is Copyright all rights reserved unless expressly limited Restrict: no-external-archive Top 12 things likely to be overheard if you had a Klingon Programmer: 12) "Specifications are for the weak and timid!" 11) "This machine is a piece of GAGH! I need dual Pentium processors if I am to do battle with this code!" 10) "You cannot really appreciate Dilbert unless you've read it in the original Klingon." 9) "Indentation?! - I will show you how to indent when I indent your skull!" 8) "What is this talk of 'release'? Klingons do not make software 'releases'. Our software 'escapes' leaving a bloody trail of designers and quality assurance people in its wake." 7) "Klingon function calls do not have 'parameters' - they have 'arguments' - and they ALWAYS WIN THEM." 6) "Debugging? Klingons do not debug. Our software does not coddle the weak." 5) "I have challenged the entire quality assurance team to a Bat-Leth contest. They will not concern us again." 4) "A TRUE Klingon Warrior does not comment his code!" 3) "By filing this bug report you have challenged the honor of my family. Prepare to die!" 2) "You question the worthiness of my code? I should kill you where you stand!" 1) "Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!" ********************************************************************* NOTICE - This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error, please notify Investec Group, its subsidiaries or associates, immediately. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the view of Investec Group, its subsidiaries or associates. ********************************************************************** ----- End forwarded message ----- -- "It's always funny until someone gets hurt. Then it's hilarious." Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 18: 3:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23AF737B41A for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id fB823pA15547; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:03:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA12024; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:03:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12020; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:03:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:03:51 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <15377.24382.269850.329410@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > Actually, you should either use sand - as that's made of silicon - or > physicists, depending on how close silicon is to whatever your heart > desires. You're a lot father along than I am. I am creating my own solar system :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 18:19: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aquinas.techsquare.com (aquinas.techsquare.com [199.190.186.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B35637B416; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:18:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by aquinas.techsquare.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fB82Ifx78282; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:18:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jamie) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:18:41 -0500 From: Jamie Oulman To: James Howard Cc: chat@freebsd.org, jim@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD E'Zine Message-ID: <20011207211841.A78270@techsquare.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from howardjp@Glue.umd.edu on Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 05:37:15PM -0500 Organization: TechSquare X-PGP-ID: 1AF3984E Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org have you tried sending Jim Mock (the maintainer) email? jim@freebsd.org im sure he would know more than this list. jamie. On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 05:37:15PM -0500, James Howard wrote: > Is the FreeBSD E'Zine totally dead? The last issue I saw was in May. > > Jamie > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 18:30:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43F3D37B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:30:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 4EA59FC3; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:30:09 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:30:09 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: James Howard Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011207203009.C29999@over-yonder.net> References: <15377.24382.269850.329410@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from howardjp@Glue.umd.edu on Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 09:03:51PM -0500 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 09:03:51PM -0500 I heard the voice of James Howard, and lo! it spake thus: > On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > Actually, you should either use sand - as that's made of silicon - or > > physicists, depending on how close silicon is to whatever your heart > > desires. > > You're a lot father along than I am. I am creating my own solar system :) Jeez, where do you people find the time to get this stuff done? I'm still working on some sort of property to bring stuff together... I've heard that someone developed something called 'gravity' for it, but I want something I can patent and make money off of later... -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 18:39: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2D237B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:39:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.130.204.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.130.204] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16CXOC-0001TE-00; Fri, 07 Dec 2001 18:38:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3C117D48.6AA71A1E@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 18:39:04 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Konstantinos writes: > > I don't understand why you are so hostile towards > > unix on the desktop. > > I'm not hostile towards it at all. I just recognize that UNIX is not a > desktop OS, at least not compared to Windows. I'm amazed that so many > people try so hard to prove otherwise. FWIW: I agree with Anthony, here. No UNIX or clone is capable of running any of the more popular virus, worm, DDOS, or other programs. Further, you can't use buffer overflow attacks against popular programs likely to be running on every UNIX system to run arbitrary code to perform industrial espionage, or steal credit card numbers or bank account and routing numbers in order to finance terrorism. UNIX and UNIX clones are not very useful on the desktop, if you are a cracker with a hidden agenda. Down with UNIX! -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 19: 6: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE92637B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:06:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15905; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:05:50 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011207200430.03f44580@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 20:05:43 -0700 To: Mathew Kanner , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: laugh at the dumb admin In-Reply-To: <20011207115936.K97278@cnd.mcgill.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:59 AM 12/7/2001, Mathew Kanner wrote: >Just when I thought I've shot myself in the foot in every conceivable >way, I mounted /usr nosuid instead of /tmp on a machine that's locked >in an office that won't be opened for a couple of months. Sure makes >su'ing root hard. Well, at least this way I can't accidently kill the >sshd server. Ironically, the system is likely to stay up the whole time. At least if it's BSD. But you might consider getting one of those remote console cards for future situations like this. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 19:40:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C213A37B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:40:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB83eWx18746; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 04:40:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 04:40:32 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > This assumption is false. The dominant system > will be the best-marketed one that meets the > customers requirements, which is not the same > thing as the one that best meets the customers > requirements. Point taken. But I have previously explained that "good enough" is all that is ever required, by definition. So a system that meets the customers' requirements is ... a system that meets the customers' requirements--and beyond that, the rest is irrelevant (because it is not required). > In either case, you don't know whether it is > the rational choice for any particular use until > you know the requirements of that case. As a group, people do not tend to make irrational choices. > No, but they invalidate your religiously pushing > of the same solution for all uses in those two > environments. I have no religion in IT. But agnostics such as myself are rare. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 19:42:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C5F837B417 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB83gAx18751; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 04:42:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <008801c17f9a$5228a0d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Nils Holland" , "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <20011208000836.A71052@tisys.org> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 04:42:10 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils writes: > There've been many things I faild to understand > at all. One of these things is why someone invest > a huge ammount of time, trying to convince people > that Windows is the best desktop system. I've never seen that happen. You don't need to convince people to buy what they already have. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 19:44:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F89137B419 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:44:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB83hsx18756; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 04:43:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <008d01c17f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 04:43:54 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Let's not try to prove anything for the next > few months, shall we? And if someone asks which operating system to use on the desktop, what do we tell them? > Do we have to go over "Unix is not a good desktop" > over and over again, with each and every thread? It's important to separate religion from reality, especially when it comes to making recommendations to others who are not necessarily in a position to separate the two. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 19:54:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7FD5837B43D for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:54:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14168 invoked by uid 100); 8 Dec 2001 03:54:49 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15377.36617.358466.76379@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:54:49 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org> <008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.40/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > This assumption is false. The dominant system > > will be the best-marketed one that meets the > > customers requirements, which is not the same > > thing as the one that best meets the customers > > requirements. > Point taken. But I have previously explained that "good enough" is all that > is ever required, by definition. So a system that meets the customers' > requirements is ... a system that meets the customers' requirements--and > beyond that, the rest is irrelevant (because it is not required). Actually, I explained that to you. I've tried to explain that the requirements of every individual are different, so that the best-marketed product that is good enough for the majority may not be good enough for any given individual, but you can't seem to understand the point because it conflicts with your prejudices. There's a name for people who insist that any property of the majority of the members of a group is a property of every member of the group. > > In either case, you don't know whether it is > > the rational choice for any particular use until > > you know the requirements of that case. > As a group, people do not tend to make irrational choices. LOL. > > No, but they invalidate your religiously pushing > > of the same solution for all uses in those two > > environments. > I have no religion in IT. But agnostics such as myself are rare. For someone who claims to be an agnostic, you sure spend a lot of time preaching. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 19:56: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7329237B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:56:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14291 invoked by uid 100); 8 Dec 2001 03:56:02 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15377.36690.520139.420207@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:56:02 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <008801c17f9a$5228a0d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <20011208000836.A71052@tisys.org> <008801c17f9a$5228a0d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.40/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Nils writes: > > There've been many things I faild to understand > > at all. One of these things is why someone invest > > a huge ammount of time, trying to convince people > > that Windows is the best desktop system. > I've never seen that happen. You don't need to convince people to buy what > they already have. Ah, that explains quite a bit. You aren't reading the messages you're writing! http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 19:57: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060DA37B41B for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:56:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB83ulx18794; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 04:56:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 04:56:46 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Konstantinos writes: > Nope, it is the rational choise for *those* > customers, not all. Yes, that's what "most" means. > Speaking from my consulting experience, most > customers are morons and if something dominates > the market it is more due to their stupidity, > effective marketing and network effects rather > than rational choices based on well defined > requirements. That is often the case--Linux is a good example. But Windows is not; neither is the Mac. > Apparently, "most" is a subset of "all" customers, > so there exists a non-empty set of customers > that can rationally, based on their requirements, > choose something other than Windows, even for the > desktop. Yes. But since most customers are best served by Windows, it doesn't make sense to make a general recommendation of anything other than Windows, no matter how much other solutions might suit a minority. > Why does this bother you? Because the geeks on mailing lists like this are often asked for advice about what computer system to buy, and people who are uninformed in IT may not recognize the extent to which the recommendations they receive are a consequence of the emotional investments that some geeks have in their chosen belief systems. I can predict what type of system a geek will recommend much more accurately by knowing his religious preference than by looking at the requirements of the application. Some geeks will recommend a Mac for _everything_, because it is the Best--they'll find a way to force it to work for any environment, no matter how ill suited to that platform. Similarly, other geeks will recommend Linux for _everything_. Still others still recommend OS/2 for _everything_. I even know geeks who have changed faiths with the shifting tides of fashion. One of them was convinced that OS/2 was the best OS ever invented, and would wash away the infidels in time. As the fortunates of OS/2 waned, however, and as the star of Linux hype cleared the horizon, this impressionable geek shifted allegiance, and now pledges his soul to Linux, which is the best OS ever invented in his eyes. He becomes upset if he is reminded of his former love for OS/2. During all this time, his recommendation for a desktop OS has rigorously followed his fashion tastes; when he was a devotee of OS/2, OS/2 was the best desktop, and when Linux drove OS/2 from his heart, Linux became the best desktop. He would claim that his recommendations are based on technical merit, but if so, there is no reason why they would change with his sentiments. In fact, the merits of each OS remain the same, but his religion changes. Unfortunately, geeks like that influence a lot of non-geeks in buying decisions, and I've seen the very unhappy results of such influence time and again. Repairing the damage done by these fanatics is extremely time-consuming and difficult. > Are other peoples choices with no direct or > indirect effect on you affecting your happiness? Only if it affects theirs, and if someone recommends a white elephant to them, they are likely to be unhappy. > Does that mean that *I* should immediately cease > to use FreeBSD and buy Windows XP? No, but it strongly implies that you should acknowledge the suitability of Windows to the desktop for the average user--however heretical this may seem--and keep that fact in mind when you are asked to recommend a system for the desktop of an average user. > What bloody rule? The rule that Windows remains the dominant OS, largely because of its suitability to the desktop, and that, in any case, the mere market share of Windows alone makes it more suitable for the desktop. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 19:57:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8FEA037B41B for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:57:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14361 invoked by uid 100); 8 Dec 2001 03:57:12 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:57:12 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <008d01c17f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr> <008d01c17f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.40/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > > Let's not try to prove anything for the next > > few months, shall we? > And if someone asks which operating system to use on the desktop, what do we > tell them? Any rational person asks "What do you want to do with it?" Fanatics will insist that what's on their desktop - be it Linux, FreeBSD, BeOS, MacOS, or Windows - is the best. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 20: 1:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED47837B41B for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB841gx18820; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 05:01:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org><008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.36617.358466.76379@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 05:01:41 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > Actually, I explained that to you. I've tried > to explain that the requirements of every individual > are different, so that the best-marketed product > that is good enough for the majority may not be > good enough for any given individual, but you > can't seem to understand the point because it > conflicts with your prejudices. The average user's requirements are best met by Windows. Therefore, in the absence of specific information contraindicating this generalization, the recommendation to an average user should always be to install Windows on the desktop. > There's a name for people who insist that any > property of the majority of the members of a group > is a property of every member of the group. What name is that? > For someone who claims to be an agnostic, you > sure spend a lot of time preaching. I spend my time destroying idols and deprogramming cult victims. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 20: 3:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA4B237B419 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:03:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB843Lx18825; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 05:03:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr><008d01c17f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 05:03:21 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > Any rational person asks "What do you want to do > with it?" And if no answer to that question is available, what will the rational person's recommendation be? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 20: 4:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 16A7937B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:04:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15078 invoked by uid 100); 8 Dec 2001 04:04:46 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:04:46 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org> <008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.36617.358466.76379@guru.mired.org> <00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.40/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > Actually, I explained that to you. I've tried > > to explain that the requirements of every individual > > are different, so that the best-marketed product > > that is good enough for the majority may not be > > good enough for any given individual, but you > > can't seem to understand the point because it > > conflicts with your prejudices. > The average user's requirements are best met by Windows. Therefore, in the > absence of specific information contraindicating this generalization, the > recommendation to an average user should always be to install Windows on the > desktop. That's the pointy-haired managers approach. The logical approach is to not try and solve problems in an information vacuum. > > There's a name for people who insist that any > > property of the majority of the members of a group > > is a property of every member of the group. > What name is that? Bigot. > > For someone who claims to be an agnostic, you > > sure spend a lot of time preaching. > I spend my time destroying idols and deprogramming cult victims. Those two are the same thing. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 20: 8: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 621AC37B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:08:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15161 invoked by uid 100); 8 Dec 2001 04:07:58 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15377.37406.600708.953634@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:07:58 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr> <008d01c17f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.mired.org> <00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.40/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > Any rational person asks "What do you want to do > > with it?" > And if no answer to that question is available, what will the rational > person's recommendation be? To not waste their money on something they have no use for. If they have to have something that looks like a computer on their desk, PropTronics has some nice boxes at very reasonable prices. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 20:15:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF7E537B41A for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:15:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB84FDi06716; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 05:15:13 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <006c01c17f70$8782de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <006c01c17f70$8782de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 05:01:02 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "James Howard" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:42 PM +0100 on 2001/12/07, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Can you return to a console interface if you wish? Yup. Just pull up a shell window. > Does it run X clients > and servers? Yup, although Apple doesn't ship this software by default. Fortunately there are freely available X servers to fit the bill. > Can multiple users log into the system remotely? Dunno, haven't tried it. In the absence of any other data, I have to assume that it can. > Want to build whatever your heart desires? Start with a boot record. Not really. I prefer to start with a tool that is a bit closer to what I want to end up with, that has all the basics I need, and has nothing I don't need. Unix (especially BSD-based) fits that description admirably. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 20:15:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9ACB37B41C for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:15:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB84FCi06705; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 05:15:12 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 04:58:16 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:39 PM +0100 on 2001/12/07, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > No. The not-so-hidden assumption is that the system that best meets the > customers' requirements will tend to become dominant, because most customers > are mostly rational. No. They are provably irrational. Can you say "Betamax"? It is provably superior in every way to VHS, and to this day it continues to be used by professional video camera operators (such as those working in the field for TV stations). Yet it is a commercial failure -- VHS won that war a long time ago. What about the Tucker? It was provably superior in every way to all the other cars made at the time (what with disk brakes, safety glass, padded dashboards, etc...), but there were only ever 51 made before the company went bankrupt. No, people are provably irrational. Moreover, it is also provable that this irrationality is non-linear -- the larger the group of people, the less rational they become (because most are blind to their true needs or desires, and are lemmings that follow the moron in front of them off the side of the bridge). > Since Windows is dominant, then, logically it meets > the requirements of most customers, and so it is the rational choice. This whole statement is based on a false assumption. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 20:22:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 946E337B41A for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:22:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB84MAx18883; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 05:22:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org><008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36617.358466.76379@guru.mired.org><00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 05:22:09 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > That's the pointy-haired managers approach. That's any good manager's approach, in the absence of additional information. Sometimes you have to make decisions based on what you have. If you need to choose a desktop, and that's all you know, Windows is the best choice. Additionally, if you are asked what desktop to install who apparently _cannot_ answer the question "What do you want to do with it?" then again Windows is the best choice, because it is specifically designed for people who aren't exactly sure what they want to do with their system. Interestingly, in serverland, the general answer is not as obvious, because UNIX and Windows are about equally distributed in that domain. However, if someone asked me for a server recommendation and _didn't know_ what he wanted to use the server for, I'd recommend Windows, as Windows is easier to administer for the clueless. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 20:23:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F72537B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:23:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fB84N5t57101; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 05:23:05 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <00d401c17fa0$09134fc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr><008d01c17f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.mired.org><00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.37406.600708.953634@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 05:22:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > To not waste their money on something they > have no use for. And if they insist on buying something anyway, as they often do? What do you recommend then? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 20:27:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2331137B41C for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:27:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB84REx18893; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 05:27:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 05:27:14 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > No. They are provably irrational. Can you > say "Betamax"? Can you say CD, or DVD? > It is provably superior in every way to VHS, > and to this day it continues to be used by > professional video camera operators ... Betacam SP and its digital successors resemble Betamax in the form of the cassette only, as far as I know. They are quite substantially removed from the consumer form of Betamax, although these professional formats do indeed have their origin in that type of cassette. Professional formats are not dictated by technical considerations alone, however; U-Matic is still around, and it's garbage. It's wise to be careful about saying "provably superior" with reference to anything. > Moreover, it is also provable that this > irrationality is non-linear -- the larger the > group of people, the less rational they become > ... But people do not buy their home or office computers as a mob. Since you place a great deal of emphasis on all of your assertions being "provable," can you point me to a few proofs? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 20:30:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B112937B417 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:30:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB84UAx18907; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 05:30:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00de01c17fa1$06539e10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "James Howard" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , References: <006c01c17f70$8782de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 05:30:10 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > Yup. Just pull up a shell window. How do you get out of the GUI and back to a simple console? > Yup, although Apple doesn't ship this software > by default. Hmm ... so what are they using for a GUI? I thought one of the huge advantages to UNIX was the variety of X servers and clients available, but you seem to be saying that this Mac version of UNIX fails to adhere to standards for its GUI. > Dunno, haven't tried it. In the absence of any > other data, I have to assume that it can. Well, what daemons are running? I presume that this UNIX system provides all the usual commands? Indeed, if it is a UNIX system in every sense of the word, how can you avoid knowing whether or not it allows remote connections? Isn't there any indication of this when the machine boots, before it starts the GUI? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 20:31:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DBD8D37B42B for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:31:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16535 invoked by uid 100); 8 Dec 2001 04:31:30 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15377.38817.965814.78679@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:31:29 -0600 To: , Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr> <008d01c17f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.mired.org> <00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.37406.600708.953634@guru.mired.org> <00d401c17fa0$09134fc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org> <008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.36617.358466.76379@guru.mired.org> <00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.40/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > That's the pointy-haired managers approach. > That's any good manager's approach, in the absence of additional > information. Sometimes you have to make decisions based on what you have. > If you need to choose a desktop, and that's all you know, Windows is the > best choice. A good manager knows that "not choosing" is a valid choice, and will arrange to get more information. Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > To not waste their money on something they > > have no use for. > And if they insist on buying something anyway, as they often do? What do > you recommend then? That they not waste their money. It's the same as you refusing to tell people about Linux, only without the religion you add to the mix. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 20:39:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 746F537B417 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:39:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a128.otenet.gr [212.205.215.128]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fB84dVG22559; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:39:32 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB84dWX27782; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:39:32 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:39:31 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr> References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-12-08 05:22:09, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Mike writes: > > > That's the pointy-haired managers approach. > > That's any good manager's approach, in the absence of additional > information. Sometimes you have to make decisions based on what you have. > If you need to choose a desktop, and that's all you know, Windows is the > best choice. No, it is not. All that you know (big, underlined, bold and huge-lettered emphasis on "all") is that you want a 'desktop'. You do not know that Windows can provide a 'desktop'. Not until someone preaching Windows desktop use, comes along. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21: 6:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9E737B41A for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB856RY08626; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:06:28 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:01:47 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:56 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Yes. But since most customers are best served by Windows, it doesn't make > sense to make a general recommendation of anything other than Windows, no > matter how much other solutions might suit a minority. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Have you ever heard of this thing called "Requirements Determination"? Whenever people ask me what kind of computer they should buy, we go through a long process. It goes something like this: Them: What kind of computer should I buy? Me: It depends. Is there anyone in particular that you need to be compatible with? Is there any particular program or type of program you need to run? Why are you buying a computer and what do you want to do with it? Once I get the answers to those questions, my next response is usually "Then buy the computer that best serves that function." If they have a friend who uses Amiga computers and they want to share software with them, then obviously an Amiga is the best choice for them. If they want to run a particular program which is only available on one platform, then their choice is made. Only if they want to run a program (or a set of programs) that are available on more than one platform do you then get into a situation where you have to look at the issue more deeply. For example, if most of their friends are using one particular platform, and some of their friends are using a different platform, then they need to decide which group of friends they want to be most compatible with. If they want to be compatible with both, they need to decide at what level they need that compatibility -- do they have to run all the exact same binaries, or can they just share data? If they need to run all the exact same binaries, that may well force their decision to go with a particular system that has not only native support for one group of friends, but can run good quality emulation software so as to be compatible with the other group. What completely escapes me is why you find it so extremely important to try to force-fit everyone into precisely the same mold? The majority of holes out there may well be round, but there are some of us that are square pegs, or triangular or even odder shaped, and yet you are still here preaching your gospel that you must force us all into the same round holes. What is is about you that makes you completely blind to the reality of this world where everything is not solid black, but where we also have the occasional white or even grey -- not to mention all the reds, blues, greens, yellows, oranges, pinks, purples, and various other colors of the rainbow? > Because the geeks on mailing lists like this are often asked for advice > about what computer system to buy, and people who are uninformed in IT may > not recognize the extent to which the recommendations they receive are a > consequence of the emotional investments that some geeks have in their > chosen belief systems. I submit that the majority of geeks on this mailing list will probably use a fairly similar system for helping people to find the right answer to their questions, as I have detailed above. Moreover, even if they are all FreeBSD zealots and push their views with frothy vigour, it is not your responsibility to save the world from them. It is most certainly not your responsibility to save everyone else on the mailing list from them -- especially since the likelihood is that most of the other people on the mailing list might be inclined to agree with them regarding the general suitability for FreeBSD in most roles that you seem to find so violently abhorrent. > I can predict what type of system a geek will recommend much more accurately > by knowing his religious preference than by looking at the requirements of > the application. Which is precisely what you're doing -- Windows Uber Alles. [0] > Unfortunately, geeks like that influence a lot of non-geeks in buying > decisions, and I've seen the very unhappy results of such influence time and > again. Repairing the damage done by these fanatics is extremely > time-consuming and difficult. It seems to me that most everyone on this mailing list is trying to do precisely the same thing to you, with regards to your fanatical pursuit of declaring Windows to be the One True Operating System, and your unending attempts to force this view on everyone else. It has been my experience that it is only the true baseless ignorant fanatic that pursues their view on a particular religious topic to the exclusion of all others, and is unwilling or even unable to listen to any possible alternative views. Contrariwise, I have found that it has been the more knowledgeable and experienced individuals who are willing to say "This works for me, but it may not be for everyone". >> Does that mean that *I* should immediately cease >> to use FreeBSD and buy Windows XP? > > No, but it strongly implies that you should acknowledge the suitability of > Windows to the desktop for the average user--however heretical this may > seem--and keep that fact in mind when you are asked to recommend a system > for the desktop of an average user. Why? Just exactly who is the "average user", and how much do they really know about their true needs and what will serve them best? Do we just roll a die and pick someone? What if they happen to be a MacFanatic, a Linux Zealot, or a FreeBSD Adherent? Just exactly who is the "average user"? You know, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Your hammer is Windows (and everything else Microsoft). Unfortunately, your nails are all the rest of the people on this mailing list that are willing to say that FreeBSD works best for them but it may not do so for everyone else. Are you really the only person in the Universe who can't see what's wrong with this picture? I strongly suggest that you take some courses in logic before you continue posting on this mailing list. I also suggest that you have some psyochological therapy before you again assail the FreeBSD Faithful with your rendition of "Microsoft is Merciful" and "Allah Wishes He Could Be Gates". [0] My apologies to the German-speaking people on this mailing list for not using proper accent marks, but I wanted to make sure that this message didn't get rejected by the mailing list management software for binary content, and I felt that most people would understand the statement even though the accent marks were lacking. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21: 6:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4508D37B429 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:06:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB856WY08716; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:06:32 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><0069 01c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@gu ru.mired.org><008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.36617.358466.76379@guru.mired.org> <00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:05:29 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:01 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > The average user's requirements are best met by Windows. Because you say so. Uh-huh. Have you ever heard of this thing called "circular reasoning"? Oh, sorry -- I see you haven't taken any courses in Logic, so obviously you haven't. >> For someone who claims to be an agnostic, you >> sure spend a lot of time preaching. > > I spend my time destroying idols and deprogramming cult victims. And I'm sure that Osama bin Laden would say very similar things. That doesn't change the fact that he's a sociopath with illusions of grandeur, or that he has murdered thousands of people (maybe more). -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:30:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D3C37B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:30:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB85Umx19042; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:30:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: , "Mike Meyer" References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr><008d01c17f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.mired.org><00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.37406.600708.953634@guru.mired.org><00d401c17fa0$09134fc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org><008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36617.358466.76379@guru.mired.org><00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org><00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.38817.965814.78679@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:30:45 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > A good manager knows that "not choosing" is a > valid choice, and will arrange to get more information. As I've said, sometimes you _must_ make a decision with only the information that you have. > That they not waste their money. But they insist on buying something, as I have said, so you must recommend something. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:33:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DAD37B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:33:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB85Wwx19047; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:32:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:32:58 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos writes: > No, it is not. All that you know (big, underlined, > bold and huge-lettered emphasis on "all") is that > you want a 'desktop'. And what is a "desktop"? > You do not know that Windows can provide a 'desktop'. Windows and desktop often occur together. In the absence of other information, then, Windows for the desktop is a good choice. It will be the right choice more often than not. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:34:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8EA8137B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:34:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 19421 invoked by uid 100); 8 Dec 2001 05:34:26 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15377.42594.596875.611015@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:34:26 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: , Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr> <008d01c17f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.mired.org> <00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.37406.600708.953634@guru.mired.org> <00d401c17fa0$09134fc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org> <008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.36617.358466.76379@guru.mired.org> <00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.38817.965814.78679@guru.mired.org> <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.40/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > A good manager knows that "not choosing" is a > > valid choice, and will arrange to get more information. > As I've said, sometimes you _must_ make a decision with only the information > that you have. And as I said, a good manager will decide not to decide. > > That they not waste their money. > But they insist on buying something, as I have said, so you must recommend > something. In which case, I'll recommend they give me enough information to make a decision. While you may be willing to give someone bad advice based on your religious convictions, I'm not. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:35:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E120037B41C for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:35:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a176.otenet.gr [212.205.215.176]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fB85ZLG26514; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:35:22 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB85ZNg28460; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:35:23 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:35:22 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Meyer Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011208053522.GB28300@hades.hell.gr> References: <15377.38817.965814.78679@guru.mired.org> <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-12-08 06:30:45, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Mike writes: > > > A good manager knows that "not choosing" is a > > valid choice, and will arrange to get more information. > > As I've said, sometimes you _must_ make a decision with only the information > that you have. All the information you have (as I pointed in an earlier post), is that you "need a desktop". You don't know if Windows can provide one. This bodes ill. You are in a state where the only thing that can be done is 'research'. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:35:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CCD537B41B for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a176.otenet.gr [212.205.215.176]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fB85ZqG26757; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:35:52 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB85Zq428475; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:35:52 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:35:52 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr> References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr> <00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-12-08 06:32:58, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Giorgos writes: > > > No, it is not. All that you know (big, underlined, > > bold and huge-lettered emphasis on "all") is that > > you want a 'desktop'. > > And what is a "desktop"? I'm quoting your own words. Perhaps you could explain to us? -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:38:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8D88F37B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:38:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 19571 invoked by uid 100); 8 Dec 2001 05:38:33 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15377.42841.164126.188078@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:38:33 -0600 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <20011208053522.GB28300@hades.hell.gr> References: <15377.38817.965814.78679@guru.mired.org> <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053522.GB28300@hades.hell.gr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.40/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas types: > On 2001-12-08 06:30:45, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Mike writes: > > > A good manager knows that "not choosing" is a > > > valid choice, and will arrange to get more information. > > As I've said, sometimes you _must_ make a decision with only the information > > that you have. > All the information you have (as I pointed in an earlier post), is > that you "need a desktop". You don't know if Windows can provide one. > This bodes ill. You are in a state where the only thing that can be > done is 'research'. One might note that research is anathema to those with a religious conviction. After all, they *know* the answer. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:42: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28FB37B41A for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:41:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB85fki10609; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:41:47 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><0069 01c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@gu ru.mired.org><008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.3661 7.358466.76379@guru.mired.org><00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielsk i.com> <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:17:30 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:22 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Additionally, if you are asked what desktop to install who apparently > _cannot_ answer the question "What do you want to do with it?" then again > Windows is the best choice, because it is specifically designed for people > who aren't exactly sure what they want to do with their system. Actually, no. The Macintosh is far easier to use, and has far better integration between the OS, the hardware, and the software. They're also much better designed, and much more easily upgraded or repaired. For someone who truly has no idea what they want to use the computer for, Windows would probably be the worst possible choice you could give them -- unreliable OS, unreliable software, and frequently unreliable hardware. > Interestingly, in serverland, the general answer is not as obvious, because > UNIX and Windows are about equally distributed in that domain. Again, that's not true. How many Windows servers do you think AOL has? How many Windows servers do you think that Yahoo! has? You can't just use the Netcraft host survey results (or any other host survey results I know of), because the number of web servers out there is not a representative sample of the total number of servers out there. Moreover, none of the host surveys I know of can distinguish between NT Desktop and NT Server editions, and by your own definition these two camps are mutually exclusive. > However, if > someone asked me for a server recommendation and _didn't know_ what he > wanted to use the server for, I'd recommend Windows, as Windows is easier to > administer for the clueless. You're only showing your ignorance here. I suggest that you stop embarrassing yourself and take your Windows religion somewhere else. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:42:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A9AA37B42B for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:42:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB85foi10663; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:41:52 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:24:56 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:27 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Can you say CD, or DVD? There are plenty of compromises that were made with both of these technologies. Neither of them is anywhere near the best technical solution for these problems. If they were, they would have had a good technical reason for selecting the inner diameter of the CD (and the products that have followed based on this form-factor, such as DVD, etc...). You get bunny points if you can tell me the reason why the external diameter of the CD was selected. You get extra bunny points if you can tell me the real reason why the inner diameter of the CD was selected. > Betacam SP and its digital successors resemble Betamax in the form of the > cassette only, as far as I know. They are quite substantially removed from > the consumer form of Betamax, although these professional formats do indeed > have their origin in that type of cassette. Betamax was clearly superior at the time to VHS, and was arguably even superior to S-VHS. Further generations of the technology have retained their technical superiority, albeit in a format that has virtually no consumer acceptance. > Professional formats are not dictated by technical considerations alone, > however; U-Matic is still around, and it's garbage. U-matic defines the parameters by which all other analog video formats are measured. Indeed, by your own claim that it is garbage, you have proved the very point I was trying to make. Thank you. > But people do not buy their home or office computers as a mob. Yes they do. In your example, they are all lemmings who jump off the bridge just because everyone else is jumping off the bridge, and not for any real reason at all. Lemmings herd in the thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or in the case of Windows, in the hundreds of millions. But lemmings are lemmings. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:42:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FE8037B41D for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:42:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB85fvi10819; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:41:57 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00de01c17fa1$06539e10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <006c01c17f70$8782de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00de01c17fa1$06539e10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:40:58 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "James Howard" , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:30 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > How do you get out of the GUI and back to a simple console? Pull up a shell window. > Hmm ... so what are they using for a GUI? I thought one of the huge > advantages to UNIX was the variety of X servers and clients available, but > you seem to be saying that this Mac version of UNIX fails to adhere to > standards for its GUI. X is not necessarily a "standard", certainly not one that you are required to implement. I know of plenty of Unix servers around the world that don't implement any kind of GUI at all. Moreover, downloading and installing X is not that big of a deal. Indeed, I believe that there's a package management tool called "Fink" that makes this painfully easy. > Well, what daemons are running? I presume that this UNIX system provides > all the usual commands? What's running currently? I dunno, lemme pull up a shell window and see: % ps -ax PID TT STAT TIME COMMAND 1 ?? SLs 0:00.01 /sbin/init 2 ?? SL 0:04.31 /sbin/mach_init 41 ?? Ss 0:00.04 kextd 63 ?? Ss 0:05.20 /System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framew 65 ?? Ss 21:54.90 /System/Library/CoreServices/WindowServer 67 ?? Ss 0:13.40 update 70 ?? Ss 0:00.00 dynamic_pager -H 40000000 -L 160000000 -S 80000000 -F 123 ?? Ss 0:00.64 /sbin/autodiskmount -va 148 ?? Ss 0:02.13 configd 178 ?? Ss 0:00.42 syslogd 184 ?? Ss 0:00.03 /usr/libexec/CrashReporter 206 ?? Ss 0:02.68 netinfod -s local 213 ?? Ss 0:02.64 lookupd 226 ?? Ss 0:01.49 /System/Library/CoreServices/coreservicesd 233 ?? Ss 0:00.01 inetd 250 ?? Ss 0:00.21 /System/Library/CoreServices/SecurityServer 258 ?? Ss 0:00.27 cron 262 ?? Ss 0:03.82 /System/Library/CoreServices/loginwindow.app/loginwin 265 ?? Ss 0:03.21 /System/Library/CoreServices/pbs 269 ?? S 0:04.57 /System/Library/CoreServices/Finder.app/Contents/MacO 270 ?? S 0:05.90 /System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app/Contents/MacOS/ 271 ?? S 12:20.16 /System/Library/CoreServices/SystemUIServer.app/Conte 273 ?? S 0:00.33 /Applications/iTunes.app/Contents/Resources/iTunesHel 274 ?? R 30:53.20 /System/Library/CoreServices/Classic Startup.app/Cont 275 ?? S 42:42.92 /Applications/Eudora Application Folder/Eudora 5.1 (O 277 ?? S 0:10.79 /Applications/System Preferences.app/Contents/MacOS/S 278 ?? Ss 0:00.27 /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/Admin.framework/Res 279 ?? S 0:02.80 /Applications/Utilities/Terminal.app/Contents/MacOS/T 299 ?? Ss 0:00.01 automount -m /Network/Servers -fstab -m /automount -s 394 ?? S Indeed, if it is a UNIX system in every sense of the word, how can you avoid > knowing whether or not it allows remote connections? Isn't there any > indication of this when the machine boots, before it starts the GUI? Well, according to netstat, only port 1033 is currently being listened to: % netstat -an Some ip sockets may have been created or deleted Some icmp sockets may have been created or deleted Some igmp sockets may have been created or deleted Active Internet connections (including servers) Proto Recv-Q Send-Q Local Address Foreign Address (state) tcp 0 0 127.0.0.1.1033 127.0.0.1.878 ESTABLISHED tcp 0 0 127.0.0.1.878 127.0.0.1.1033 ESTABLISHED tcp 0 0 127.0.0.1.1033 127.0.0.1.49161 ESTABLISHED tcp 0 0 127.0.0.1.49161 127.0.0.1.1033 ESTABLISHED tcp 0 0 127.0.0.1.1033 127.0.0.1.863 ESTABLISHED tcp 0 0 127.0.0.1.863 127.0.0.1.1033 ESTABLISHED tcp 0 60 127.0.0.1.1033 127.0.0.1.816 ESTABLISHED tcp 0 0 127.0.0.1.816 127.0.0.1.1033 ESTABLISHED tcp 0 0 127.0.0.1.1033 *.* LISTEN udp 0 0 *.49185 *.* udp 0 0 *.49180 *.* udp 0 0 *.49175 *.* udp 0 0 10.0.1.16.123 *.* udp 0 0 127.0.0.1.123 *.* udp 0 0 *.123 *.* udp 0 0 127.0.0.1.49155 127.0.0.1.899 udp 0 0 127.0.0.1.49154 127.0.0.1.899 udp 0 0 *.899 *.* udp 0 0 *.49153 *.* udp 0 0 127.0.0.1.1033 *.* udp 0 0 *.514 *.* udp 0 0 *.68 *.* Active LOCAL (UNIX) domain sockets Address Type Recv-Q Send-Q Inode Conn Refs Nextref Addr 28b6ab8 stream 0 0 0 28b6b28 0 0 28b6b28 stream 0 0 0 28b6ab8 0 0 28b6c78 stream 0 0 0 28b6e38 0 0 28b6e38 stream 0 0 0 28b6c78 0 0 28b6c08 stream 0 0 0 28b6c40 0 0 28b6c40 stream 0 0 0 28b6c08 0 0 28b6d20 stream 0 0 0 0 0 0 28b6e00 stream 0 0 0 28b6f50 0 0 28b6f50 stream 0 0 0 28b6e00 0 0 28b6ee0 stream 0 0 298c1e0 0 0 0 /var/run/pppconfd 28b6a48 dgram 0 0 0 28b6ea8 0 28b6af0 28b6af0 dgram 0 0 0 28b6ea8 0 28b6d90 28b6d90 dgram 0 0 0 28b6ea8 0 28b6f18 28b6f18 dgram 0 0 0 28b6ea8 0 28b6d58 28b6d58 dgram 0 0 0 28b6ea8 0 28b6dc8 28b6dc8 dgram 0 0 0 28b6ea8 0 28b6e70 28b6e70 dgram 0 0 0 28b6ea8 0 0 28b6ea8 dgram 0 0 2b23e50 0 28b6a48 0 /var/run/syslog 28b6f88 dgram 0 0 0 28b6fc0 28b6fc0 0 28b6fc0 dgram 0 0 0 28b6f88 28b6f88 0 But then, as I said, I haven't enabled any of the additional networking services (such as sshd), so you won't see those ports open. Of course, I'm also behind a firewall doing NAT, so even if you were to try to probe my machine remotely, you wouldn't see even this much. Since I haven't enabled sshd, I don't know if there is any notification early in the boot process -- it goes too quickly for me to see anything. Moreover, thinking back to all the hundreds and hundreds of other Unix servers that I have been responsible for at various times since becoming a Unix system administrator in 1989, I can't think of a single one that ever told me that it was listening for anything like telnet connections on port 23, ftp connections on ports 20 & 21, SMTP connections on port 25, or ssh connections on port 22. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:42:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AFF637B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:42:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB85gMx19091; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:42:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:42:22 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Have you > ever heard of this thing called "Requirements > Determination"? I said "a general recommendation." That means a recommendation that applies to everyone generally, when differentiation among individual cases is not possible or practical. In this general case, there is no "requirements determination" because individual cases cannot be considered. Therefore, the logical choice is the most common choice, and for a PC desktop, that is Windows. > Once I get the answers to those questions ... What if you don't get answers to those questions, but must make a recommendation anyway? > What completely escapes me is why you find it > so extremely important to try to force-fit everyone > into precisely the same mold? You mean the Linux mold, or the FreeBSD mold? > The majority of holes out there may well be round, > but there are some of us that are square pegs, > or triangular or even odder shaped, and yet you > are still here preaching your gospel that you must > force us all into the same round holes. No, I am simply addressing the general case. > I submit that the majority of geeks on this mailing > list will probably use a fairly similar system for > helping people to find the right answer to their > questions, as I have detailed above. They may not have the luxury of answers to all those questions. > Moreover, even if they are all FreeBSD zealots > and push their views with frothy vigour, it is not > your responsibility to save the world from them. Nothing forbids me from making the attempt. > Which is precisely what you're doing -- Windows > Uber Alles. [0] No. As a general rule, on the desktop, Windows is the logical choice, with the Mac coming in as a rather distant second. UNIX is not statistically significant. For servers, the choice is more difficult, as no OS is indisputably predominant. Without more information, it is difficult to choose between Windows or UNIX, although the Mac is pretty much out of the running, as is Novell, IMO. Mainframe servers are usually not worthy of consideration, either, for the general case. > Why? Just exactly who is the "average user" ... An average user is someone representative of the majority of desktop users. > ... and how much do they really know about their > true needs and what will serve them best? They don't need the best, they need something that is good enough. Moreover, they need something that is both good enough and presents a low risk. For the desktop, and for an average user generally, Windows is the best choice. > Your hammer is Windows (and everything else Microsoft). What other Microsoft products have I mentioned? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:44:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D899537B419 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:44:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB85iAx19096; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:44:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <010b01c17fab$5d55be00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><0069 01c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@gu ru.mired.org><008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.36617.358466.76379@guru.mired.org> <00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:44:10 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > Because you say so. No, I make this recommendation based on the choice of the market to date. > Have you ever heard of this thing called > "circular reasoning"? Yes, but I do not see its relevance here. > Oh, sorry -- I see you haven't taken > any courses in Logic, so obviously you haven't. I haven't described my educational background. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:46:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C120137B624 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:46:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB85k8x19104; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:46:08 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <012201c17fab$a2ee83c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr><008d01c17f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.mired.org><00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.37406.600708.953634@guru.mired.org><00d401c17fa0$09134fc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org><008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36617.358466.76379@guru.mired.org><00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org><00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.38817.965814.78679@guru.mired.org><00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.42594.596875.611015@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:46:08 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > And as I said, a good manager will decide not > to decide. That is not always an option. If, for example, you are moving down the freeway and you are approaching an off-ramp, you must decide whether to take the ramp or continue on the freeway. "Deciding not to decide" is not an option. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:48:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B825937B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:48:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB85lRx19114; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:47:28 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <012901c17fab$d2a490a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: , "Mike Meyer" References: <15377.38817.965814.78679@guru.mired.org> <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053522.GB28300@hades.hell.gr> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:47:27 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos writes: > All the information you have (as I pointed in an > earlier post), is that you "need a desktop". I know that most people use Windows on the desktop. Therefore it seems likely that choosing Windows for the desktop will be an acceptable choice. > You are in a state where the only thing that can be > done is 'research'. Sometimes decisions must be made without research. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:49:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4763837B419 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:49:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB85max19125; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:48:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr> <00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:48:36 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos writes: > I'm quoting your own words. Perhaps you could > explain to us? A desktop is the personal computing environment used by a non-IT-specialist in a home or office. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:52:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D8A937B417 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB85qA829018; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:52:10 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr><008d01c1 7f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.m ired.org><00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.37406.60 0708.953634@guru.mired.org><00d401c17fa0$09134fc0$0a00000a@atkielski.c om><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a 00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org><008101 c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36617.358466.76379@guru. mired.org><00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.37214.2 13789.306335@guru.mired.org><00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski. com> <15377.38817.965814.78679@guru.mired.org> <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:48:33 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , , "Mike Meyer" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:30 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > As I've said, sometimes you _must_ make a decision with only the information > that you have. If you construct a stupid and unrealistic situation, you should not be disappointed with the answer you receive. I don't know what kind of fantasy world you live in, but it's been my experience that in the real world you always have more information than this. > But they insist on buying something, as I have said, so you must recommend > something. No, you don't. Just because the person who wants to spend their money is being stupid and unrealistic doesn't mean that you are forced in any way to give them any advice at all. This is yet another example of your attempt to apply fundamentally flawed logic to pursue your own personal agenda. Indeed, in this case Mike has gone above and beyond and shown that he would give them the best advice possible, which is that they shouldn't waste their money until they know more about what they want to do. If they want to ignore that advice and buy something anyway, that's their problem. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:52:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1AF937B41A for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:52:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB85qD829050; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:52:16 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr> <00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:51:30 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Giorgos Keramidas" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: "Mike Meyer" , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:32 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Windows and desktop often occur together. In the absence of other > information, then, Windows for the desktop is a good choice. It will be the > right choice more often than not. Not true. In your stupid and unrealistic example, the one and only fact you know is that they want to buy a desktop. Period. After defining this fact, you cannot then go back and say that "Windows and desktop often occur together" and then use that as justification for the fundamentally flawed answer that you have artificially generated. Yet once again, you demonstrate your ignorance and your inability to properly apply logic to the discussion. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:53:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DE7B37B419 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:53:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB85rgx19145; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:53:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <013901c17fac$b23dc6a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><0069 01c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@gu ru.mired.org><008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.3661 7.358466.76379@guru.mired.org><00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielsk i.com> <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:53:42 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > The Macintosh is far easier to use, and has far > better integration between the OS, the hardware, > and the software. The Mac respresents only a fraction of the desktop market. There must be a reason for that, and I do not think that it is a dark conspiracy. > They're also much better designed, and much more > easily upgraded or repaired. Then why do most people continue to use Windows on the desktop? > For someone who truly has no idea what they > want to use the computer for, Windows would > probably be the worst possible choice you > could give them -- unreliable OS, unreliable > software, and frequently unreliable hardware. Hmm ... how could the choice of _software_ on a machine make the _hardware_ unreliable? In any case, I've never seen any evidence that any of these is the case. The conventional Mac OS crashes at least as often as consumer versions of Windows, and much more often than NT-based versions of Windows (or UNIX). > Again, that's not true. As I've pointed out previously, UNIX and Windows are about even in the server market right now, in terms of installed hosts (from what I was able to glean from the statistics I read). > How many Windows servers do you think > AOL has? I don't know. But AOL != entire server market, so why is that important? > How many Windows servers do you think that > Yahoo! has? See above. > You can't just use the Netcraft host survey results > (or any other host survey results I know of), because > the number of web servers out there is not a representative > sample of the total number of servers out there. Moreover, > none of the host surveys I know of can distinguish > between NT Desktop and NT Server editions, and by your > own definition these two camps are mutually exclusive. Okay ... but this is still not a reason to _disbelieve_ the provided numbers, as there is no contradictory evidence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:56:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAFDB37B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:56:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB85u2x19154; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:56:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <013e01c17fad$059cb3b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:56:03 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > There are plenty of compromises that were made > with both of these technologies. Such as? > Neither of them is anywhere near the best technical > solution for these problems. Both of them were vastly superior to all competition, and succeeded on that basis, irrespective of any marketing or lack thereof. > U-matic defines the parameters by which all > other analog video formats are measured. Yes, it can be used to establish a baseline, albeit a very outdated one now. > Yes they do. I usually see them in stores buying as individuals. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:57:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F3037B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:57:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB85vVx19159; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:57:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <014b01c17fad$3ac567d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: , "Mike Meyer" , "Brad Knowles" References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr><008d01c1 7f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.m ired.org><00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.37406.60 0708.953634@guru.mired.org><00d401c17fa0$09134fc0$0a00000a@atkielski.c om><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a 00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org><008101 c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36617.358466.76379@guru. mired.org><00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.37214.2 13789.306335@guru.mired.org><00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski. com> <15377.38817.965814.78679@guru.mired.org> <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:57:31 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > If you construct a stupid and unrealistic situation, > you should not be disappointed with the answer you receive. See my example of the freeway and off-ramp. > No, you don't. In this hypothetical case, you cannot refuse. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 21:59:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C138037B417 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:59:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB85wux19169; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:58:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <015201c17fad$6cf59c70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr> <00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:58:56 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > Not true. In your stupid and unrealistic > example, the one and only fact you know is > that they want to buy a desktop. Period. The one and only fact _about the buyer_ that you know is that he wants a desktop. I should have been more specific. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22: 6:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F95837B419 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:06:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB866Ix19188; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:06:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <015f01c17fae$74ebc4d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "James Howard" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , References: <006c01c17f70$8782de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00de01c17fa1$06539e10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:06:18 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > > How do you get out of the GUI and back to a > > simple console? > > Pull up a shell window. How do you "pull up a shell window" if you have exited the GUI? > X is not necessarily a "standard", certainly > not one that you are required to implement. Really? So much for arguments in favor of UNIX based on X, eh? It's interesting how positions shift. > I know of plenty of Unix servers around the > world that don't implement any kind of GUI > at all. I'd expect that any UNIX system used as a server would not have a GUI, as it is just a waste of resources and a security and stability risk. > Moreover, downloading and installing X is not that > big of a deal. So why isn't the Mac OS X simply an X server? > What's running currently? I dunno, lemme pull up > a shell window and see: Lots of weird stuff. Weird stuff makes me nervous. > There's a lot of more unusual looking stuff here > (mostly Aqua applications), but there are also > some pretty familiar faces ... It's the unusual stuff that always worries me. > /sbin: > SystemStarter fsck_msdos mount_afp ... My guess is that a great deal hides behind SystemStarter. > Seems mostly standard to me. If anything, what > they've done here is largely add a few things > and maybe move a few things around. Kind of like Windows 3.x, no? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22: 9:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 56B6A37B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:09:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 21363 invoked by uid 100); 8 Dec 2001 06:08:32 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15377.44640.194488.100103@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:08:32 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr> <00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr> <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Giorgos writes: > > I'm quoting your own words. Perhaps you could > > explain to us? > A desktop is the personal computing environment used by a non-IT-specialist > in a home or office. So what do you call the personal computing environment used by an IT specialist in her home or office? > If, for example, you are moving down the freeway and you are approaching an > off-ramp, you must decide whether to take the ramp or continue on the > freeway. "Deciding not to decide" is not an option. You obviously give people more credit than they deserve. I've seen a number of people "decide not to decide" in that situation. They do it by stopping. If they're bright, they stop off the roadway between the two, but not all drivers are that bright. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:13:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B709C37B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:13:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB86DBx19205; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:13:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <016801c17faf$6a977640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org><00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr><00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr><013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.44640.194488.100103@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:12:45 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > So what do you call the personal computing > environment used by an IT specialist in her > home or office? I don't have a generic name for it. I'm not sure that there is much in common among specialists with respect to their home and office computing environments. > You obviously give people more credit than > they deserve. No, I am trying to illustrate an abstract concept in an understandable way, without much success, apparently. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:17: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFEBE37B417 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:17:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB86GtY24318; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:16:55 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:16:29 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:42 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > I said "a general recommendation." That means a recommendation that applies > to everyone generally, when differentiation among individual cases is not > possible or practical. You're trying to unilaterally apply a "general" solution to a specific problem. This is a fundamentally flawed approach to problem solving. > What if you don't get answers to those questions, but must make a > recommendation anyway? I am never forced to make a recommendation. No one puts a gun to your head and tells you that they will kill you if you don't respond to this kind of a question. If they do, they are almost certainly a religious fanatic (such as yourself) that is looking for a particular response, and if they don't hear you say what they want you to say, then they will pull the trigger no matter what. > You mean the Linux mold, or the FreeBSD mold? Your Windows Zealot mold. > No, I am simply addressing the general case. No, you're not. You are mis-applying the wrong tool for the wrong problem, and then you are trying to wave your hands and claim that you are addressing the general case. I'm sorry, but we're a bit too smart for that -- far smarter morons than you have tried before and been caught, and we're not about to let you get away with it, either. > They may not have the luxury of answers to all those questions. Then the choice is up to them how they would respond in that kind of situation, but my answer would be that I don't have enough information and that I would rather make no recommendation at all than make one that turned out to be bad for the person. >> Moreover, even if they are all FreeBSD zealots >> and push their views with frothy vigour, it is not >> your responsibility to save the world from them. > > Nothing forbids me from making the attempt. Common sense? Decency? Consideration for all the other poor sods on this mailing list who are getting bloody sick and tired of reading your drivel, and tired of being continually spammed by you on this topic? Oh, sorry -- I forgot. You're a religious zealot and you can't possibly let this issue go. > No. As a general rule, on the desktop, Windows is the logical choice, with > the Mac coming in as a rather distant second. UNIX is not statistically > significant. Right, and statistically, the average distance between atoms in this Universe is something like one every ten centimeters, so you don't exist. Ghu, I wish that were true. The reality is that sweeping generalities of the sort you constantly spew are simply inappropriate and fundamentally incorrect, because they are based on flawed assumptions. > For servers, the choice is more difficult, as no OS is indisputably > predominant. Without more information, it is difficult to choose between > Windows or UNIX, although the Mac is pretty much out of the running, as is > Novell, IMO. Mainframe servers are usually not worthy of consideration, > either, for the general case. Again, what is the general case? I know of plenty of situations where mainframe machines are precisely the best kind of server to use, because they are so very good at handling very large volumes of I/O with otherwise limited resources. > An average user is someone representative of the majority of desktop users. A meaningless circular definition. Try giving us a real concrete definition next time. > They don't need the best, they need something that is good enough. > Moreover, they need something that is both good enough and presents a low > risk. For the desktop, and for an average user generally, Windows is the > best choice. Again, that is not necessarily true. Even if it were true in an abstract sense, this world is not abstract. This world has a real physical manifestation, and therefore your religious zealot rules don't always apply. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:17:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9480E37B417 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:17:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a176.otenet.gr [212.205.215.176]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fB86HkG23472; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:17:47 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB86Hk328924; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:17:46 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:17:46 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Meyer Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011208061746.GB28759@hades.hell.gr> References: <15377.38817.965814.78679@guru.mired.org> <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053522.GB28300@hades.hell.gr> <012901c17fab$d2a490a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <012901c17fab$d2a490a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-12-08 06:47:27, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Giorgos writes: > > > All the information you have (as I pointed in an > > earlier post), is that you "need a desktop". > > I know that most people use Windows on the desktop. Therefore it seems > likely that choosing Windows for the desktop will be an acceptable choice. This adds to the original "axiom" of knowing only the need for a desktop, although I just saw your twist of the statement. I'll let it pass. > > You are in a state where the only thing that can be > > done is 'research'. > > Sometimes decisions must be made without research. Based on what? Religion? I'm an atheist. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:18:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 34FA937B41B for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:18:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 21768 invoked by uid 100); 8 Dec 2001 06:18:47 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15377.45255.263953.141925@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:18:47 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <016801c17faf$6a977640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr> <00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr> <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.44640.194488.100103@guru.mired.org> <016801c17faf$6a977640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > So what do you call the personal computing > > environment used by an IT specialist in her > > home or office? > I don't have a generic name for it. I'm not sure that there is much in > common among specialists with respect to their home and office computing > environments. In that case, you should quit preaching at specialists about what they do. > > You obviously give people more credit than > > they deserve. > No, I am trying to illustrate an abstract concept in an understandable way, > without much success, apparently. The reason for your lack of success is obvious - you're trying to illustrate a falsehood. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:21:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F9F37B41B for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:21:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB86L8i23587; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:21:08 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <012901c17fab$d2a490a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15377.38817.965814.78679@guru.mired.org> <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053522.GB28300@hades.hell.gr> <012901c17fab$d2a490a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:17:46 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Giorgos Keramidas" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: , "Mike Meyer" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:47 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > I know that most people use Windows on the desktop. Therefore it seems > likely that choosing Windows for the desktop will be an acceptable choice. I know that most people stop breathing at some point in their life. Therefore it seems likely that recommending that you do the same will be an acceptable choice. >> You are in a state where the only thing that can be >> done is 'research'. > > Sometimes decisions must be made without research. Which, invariably, includes the decision not to make a decision. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:21:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8277737B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB86LAi23616; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:21:10 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr> <00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr> <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:18:27 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Giorgos Keramidas" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: "Mike Meyer" , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:48 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > A desktop is the personal computing environment used by a non-IT-specialist > in a home or office. Really? I thought that a desktop was the top of a desk. Hmm. Silly me. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:21:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3991C37B41B for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:21:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB86LFi23708; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:21:16 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00d401c17fa0$09134fc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr><008d01c1 7f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.m ired.org><00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.37406.600708.953634@guru.mired.org> <00d401c17fa0$09134fc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:19:00 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:22 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > And if they insist on buying something anyway, as they often do? What do > you recommend then? I recommend that they make their own decision. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:21:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E7137B419 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:21:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB86LLi23814; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:21:21 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr><008d01c1 7f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.mired.org> <00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:19:22 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:03 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > And if no answer to that question is available, what will the rational > person's recommendation be? That they make their own decision. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:21:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4385E37B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:21:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB86LSi23970; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:21:29 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <008d01c17f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr> <008d01c17f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:20:53 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Giorgos Keramidas" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:43 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > And if someone asks which operating system to use on the desktop, what do we > tell them? I ask them "What do you want to do with it and why?" > It's important to separate religion from reality, especially when it comes > to making recommendations to others who are not necessarily in a position to > separate the two. Physician, heal thyself. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:51:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9D6437B417 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:51:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB86p2x19304; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:51:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:50:57 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > You're trying to unilaterally apply a "general" > solution to a specific problem. No, I am applying a general solution to a general problem. > I am never forced to make a recommendation. What if you are? Try to think of this in the abstract. > Then the choice is up to them how they would > respond in that kind of situation, but my answer > would be that I don't have enough information > and that I would rather make no recommendation > at all than make one that turned out to be bad > for the person. You might not have that option. There seems to be quite a desire here to avoid the actual question by claiming that one need not answer it without more information. If a non-IT, average user asks you what OS to install as his desktop, what do you recommend, and why? You have no other information concerning his requirements, and you do not have the option of asking for more information or refusing to answer. > Common sense? Decency? Neither of these is relevant. > Consideration for all the other poor sods on > this mailing list who are getting bloody sick > and tired of reading your drivel, and tired of > being continually spammed by you on this topic? I don't know that I'm the greatest irritant in this discussion. > Right, and statistically, the average distance > between atoms in this Universe is something like > one every ten centimeters, so you don't exist. Correct, from the standpoint of the universe. > Ghu, I wish that were true. Ah ... and why is that? > The reality is that sweeping generalities of > the sort you constantly spew are simply inappropriate > and fundamentally incorrect, because they are > based on flawed assumptions. Which assumptions are flawed? Do you dispute that Windows is the leading desktop OS today? > Again, what is the general case? The general case is applications such as file, print, and web servers. Mainframes are not generally an advantage for these types of applications. For specific proprietary and legacy applications, mainframes may be the best (or only) choice, e.g., large airline reservation systems, large OLTP systems of various types, batch processing, and so on. > I know of plenty of situations where mainframe > machines are precisely the best kind of server to > use, because they are so very good at handling > very large volumes of I/O with otherwise limited > resources. Most servers are not used in this way. Situations that require mainframes are generally already managed by specialists in mainframes. > A meaningless circular definition. The definition is not circular. Average = ordinary, common, and thus representative of the majority. > Again, that is not necessarily true. I know that it is not _necessarily_ true; I've only asserted that it is generally true. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:52:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B0037B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:52:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB86qDx19309; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:52:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <017601c17fb4$de7c8d70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org><00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr><00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr><013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.44640.194488.100103@guru.mired.org><016801c17faf$6a977640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.45255.263953.141925@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:52:13 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > In that case, you should quit preaching at > specialists about what they do. I have not done that. I've only pointed out that for the general case, Windows is the obvious choice. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:54:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90E3E37B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB86rOx19314; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:53:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <017d01c17fb5$09265600$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: , "Mike Meyer" References: <15377.38817.965814.78679@guru.mired.org> <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053522.GB28300@hades.hell.gr> <012901c17fab$d2a490a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:53:22 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > I know that most people stop breathing at some > point in their life. Therefore it seems likely > that recommending that you do the same will be > an acceptable choice. This is not a simple restatement of my analogy. What is its relevance? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:54:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BE6B37B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:54:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fB86sJ577198; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:54:19 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <018b01c17fb5$29fa6b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr><008d01c1 7f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.m ired.org><00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.37406.600708.953634@guru.mired.org> <00d401c17fa0$09134fc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:54:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > I recommend that they make their own decision. That is not an option. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:54:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B7037B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:54:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB86rox19318; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:53:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <018001c17fb5$1837e910$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr> <00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr> <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:53:50 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > Really? I thought that a desktop was the top > of a desk. Not in this context. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:55:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5757837B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:55:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB86skx19327; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:54:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <019401c17fb5$39918210$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr> <008d01c17f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:54:46 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > I ask them "What do you want to do with it and why?" That is not an option. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:56:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05C7037B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:56:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a176.otenet.gr [212.205.215.176]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fB86udG20998; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:56:39 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB86uem29491; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:56:40 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:56:38 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011208065638.GA29408@hades.hell.gr> References: <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-12-08 07:50:57, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > If a non-IT, average user asks you what OS to install as his desktop, what > do you recommend, and why? You have no other information concerning his > requirements, and you do not have the option of asking for more information > or refusing to answer. More questions HAVE to be asked. Questions such as: >> What do you plan to do with this OS of yours? >> Are you going to use this OS to cooperate with anyone? >> What do *they* use? >> Will you be exchanging data? >> In what formats? These questions are certainly puzzling for your average Joe User, but after a bit of "research" (yes this stupid word, yet again), your recommendations will be more reasonable. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:59: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B790E37B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:58:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a176.otenet.gr [212.205.215.176]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fB86wtG22779; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:58:55 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB86wuT29529; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:58:56 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:58:55 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011208065855.GB29408@hades.hell.gr> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr> <008d01c17f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <019401c17fb5$39918210$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <019401c17fb5$39918210$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-12-08 07:54:46, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Brad writes: > > > I ask them "What do you want to do with it and why?" > > That is not an option. Sure it is. I get up and run away from "users" that want to limit my options. I don't want to work with them or work for them or work close to them, or be related to what they want to do in any way. I like having options. Being stripped from all of them is something I would avoid like hell. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:59:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29A4D37B417 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:59:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB86xLY10107; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:59:22 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <013e01c17fad$059cb3b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <013e01c17fad$059cb3b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:41:19 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:56 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> There are plenty of compromises that were made >> with both of these technologies. > > Such as? The inner and outer diameter of the discs. The type and color of laser used to read the data. The fact that CDs are one-sided only, when they could easily have been two-sided. I could go on, but that's enough. > Both of them were vastly superior to all competition, and succeeded on that > basis, irrespective of any marketing or lack thereof. No, they succeeded because they were good enough, and everyone in the industry got together and agreed that this is what they would push. It was a fait accompli -- the market never had a chance to make a decision, because there was never any competing products that were made available at the time. >> U-matic defines the parameters by which all >> other analog video formats are measured. > > Yes, it can be used to establish a baseline, albeit a very outdated one now. It still defines the analog broadcast standard, which even the best prosumer digital cameras available today have a hard time measuring up to. Yes, it's obviously inferior to HDTV, but since HDTV was explicitly designed to supercede the analog broadcast standard, this is not a suitable comparison to make in this case. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:59:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E898137B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:59:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB86xIY10048; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:59:18 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <013901c17fac$b23dc6a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><0069 01c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@gu ru.mired.org><008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.3661 7.358466.76379@guru.mired.org><00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielsk i.com> <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <013901c17fac$b23dc6a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:35:56 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:53 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > The Mac respresents only a fraction of the desktop market. There must be a > reason for that, and I do not think that it is a dark conspiracy. Regardless of what you may think, I have spoken to people who have first-hand knowledge of precisely such a "dark conspiracy". Indeed, if there weren't such a conspiracy, then there never would have been a need for the US government to file an anti-trust suit against the company. > Then why do most people continue to use Windows on the desktop? People are irrational, I've said that before. > Hmm ... how could the choice of _software_ on a machine make the _hardware_ > unreliable? Some software explicitly disables standard built-in cooling mechanisms that are found in certain types of hardware, with the result that the system runs faster but is less reliable. However, this is totally unrelated to the fact that a lot of PC hardware is inherently unreliable. That's because most PC hardware is made with the absolute cheapest cut-rate components that they can possibly find, because price is the one and only distinguishing factor amongst most PC vendors. Yes, if you take care to specify higher-quality components that are known to work together well, you can build a very reliable machine. But this says nothing about what kind of garbage most companies are pushing. > In any case, I've never seen any evidence that any of these is the case. > The conventional Mac OS crashes at least as often as consumer versions of > Windows, and much more often than NT-based versions of Windows (or UNIX). Not at all true. The vast majority of Mac desktop users see significantly fewer crashes than Windows desktop users, and there probably isn't a single NT server in the world that has been up and running more than two hundred days straight. Contrariwise, I know of a particular Unix machine that I personally installed that had an uptime in excess of 1000 days before it was finally turned off and decommissioned. Now, Macs don't have that kind of uptime, but that's because most people turn their Mac off at night when they leave. > As I've pointed out previously, UNIX and Windows are about even in the > server market right now, in terms of installed hosts (from what I was able > to glean from the statistics I read). There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Obviously, the surveys you've seen have not accounted for all the possible variables that are involved. > I don't know. But AOL != entire server market, so why is that important? In my many years of experience, I would say that AOL is very representative of the server market. How many decades of experience do you have that you'd like to stack up against mine (and that of others on this list who appear to likewise disagree with you regarding the inherent superiority of Windows)? >> You can't just use the Netcraft host survey results >> (or any other host survey results I know of), because >> the number of web servers out there is not a representative >> sample of the total number of servers out there. Moreover, >> none of the host surveys I know of can distinguish >> between NT Desktop and NT Server editions, and by your >> own definition these two camps are mutually exclusive. > > Okay ... but this is still not a reason to _disbelieve_ the provided > numbers, as there is no contradictory evidence. The very fact that you are willing to allow for this statement proves that this kind of information was not made available to you prior to your looking at that survey. In my experience, only if people are trying to hide something to they avoid telling you about the potential weaknesses or biases in the underlying information they have available to you, which means that the Netcraft people probably have something to hide. Either that, or you were unwilling or unable to read their disclaimer, in which case you were looking at the data without having it set in proper context, and you were inappropriately applying your own obvious bias to the situation, which would disqualify your conclusions based on the data. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 22:59:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A369637B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:59:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB86xSY10212; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:59:28 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <014b01c17fad$3ac567d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr><008d01c1 7f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.m ired.org><00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.37406.60 0708.953634@guru.mired.org><00d401c17fa0$09134fc0$0a00000a@atkielski.c om><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a 00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org><008101 c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36617.358466.76379@guru. mired.org><00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.37214.2 13789.306335@guru.mired.org><00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski. com> <15377.38817.965814.78679@guru.mired.org> <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <014b01c17fad$3ac567d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:42:21 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , , "Mike Meyer" , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:57 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> If you construct a stupid and unrealistic situation, >> you should not be disappointed with the answer you receive. > > See my example of the freeway and off-ramp. See my example of coming to the intersection of all possible roads in the Universe. >> No, you don't. > > In this hypothetical case, you cannot refuse. Sure I can. Your kind of hypothetical cases never exist in the real world. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23: 0: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE1537B417 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:59:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB86xXY10300; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:59:33 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <015201c17fad$6cf59c70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr> <00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <015201c17fad$6cf59c70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:42:46 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Giorgos Keramidas" , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: "Mike Meyer" , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:58 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > The one and only fact _about the buyer_ that you know is that he wants a > desktop. I should have been more specific. Yup, here we go revising history again. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23: 0:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2313537B41B for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:59:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB86xhY10455; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:59:43 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <016801c17faf$6a977640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org><00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a000 00a@atkielski.com><20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr><00fd01c17fa9$ ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr> <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.44640.194488.100103@guru.mired.org> <016801c17faf$6a977640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:55:10 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:12 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > I don't have a generic name for it. I'm not sure that there is much in > common among specialists with respect to their home and office computing > environments. So, by your definition, an IT specialist can't have a desktop? Man, talk about arbitrary. Next time, why don't you come up with a good definition before you start an argument? Oh, right -- I forgot again. You have your Windows Religion. > No, I am trying to illustrate an abstract concept in an understandable way, > without much success, apparently. That's because most abstract concepts have problems when you try to forcibly apply them in totally inappropriate ways to real-world situations. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23: 0:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 625AC37B420 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:59:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB86xeY10424; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:59:40 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <015f01c17fae$74ebc4d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <006c01c17f70$8782de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00de01c17fa1$06539e10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <015f01c17fae$74ebc4d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:50:44 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "James Howard" , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:06 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> X is not necessarily a "standard", certainly >> not one that you are required to implement. > > Really? So much for arguments in favor of UNIX based on X, eh? No, not really. X is desirable for certain Unix applications, yes. But not required. >> Moreover, downloading and installing X is not that >> big of a deal. > > So why isn't the Mac OS X simply an X server? Because, so far, Apple has decided not to include one. > Lots of weird stuff. Weird stuff makes me nervous. What difference does it make if it's called "WindowServer" or "xinit"? Or "Eudora 5.1" or "mutt"? Or "Opera" or "Opera"? Frankly, I don't see a whole lot here that I find unusual. >> There's a lot of more unusual looking stuff here >> (mostly Aqua applications), but there are also >> some pretty familiar faces ... > > It's the unusual stuff that always worries me. Man is always afraid of the unknown. That's fine. You don't have to use most of the unusual stuff if you don't want to. >> /sbin: >> SystemStarter fsck_msdos mount_afp ... > > My guess is that a great deal hides behind SystemStarter. Do you find the bootloader to be scary? If not, did you find it to be scary before you started looking at it? Only the Aqua stuff is not available in Darwin -- the source code for everything else is publicly available, if you want to look at it. > Kind of like Windows 3.x, no? No, not really. More like NeXTstep. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23: 5:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C34337B41B for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:05:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB874Jx19388; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:04:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01a601c17fb6$8f08ab50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" References: <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208065638.GA29408@hades.hell.gr> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:04:19 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos writes: > More questions HAVE to be asked. You do not have that option, as I have repeatedly explained. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23: 9: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 19C8837B416 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:09:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26328 invoked by uid 100); 8 Dec 2001 07:09:02 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15377.48270.149743.851056@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 01:09:02 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <01a601c17fb6$8f08ab50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208065638.GA29408@hades.hell.gr> <01a601c17fb6$8f08ab50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Giorgos writes: > > More questions HAVE to be asked. > You do not have that option, as I have repeatedly explained. In that case, you call those nice young men with their nice white coats to take the person to a nice padded room until they get back in touch with reality. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23:14: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EEED37B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:14:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB87Dpx19411; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:13:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01b101c17fb7$e45bf8e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><0069 01c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@gu ru.mired.org><008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.3661 7.358466.76379@guru.mired.org><00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielsk i.com> <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <013901c17fac$b23dc6a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:13:51 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > Regardless of what you may think, I have spoken > to people who have first-hand knowledge of precisely > such a "dark conspiracy". Name them, and describe the conspiracy. > Indeed, if there weren't such a conspiracy, > then there never would have been a need for > the US government to file an anti-trust suit > against the company. There never was any such need. The government acted in response to intense lobbying by some of Microsoft's competitors. > People are irrational, I've said that before. I've seen no evidence of that. > Some software explicitly disables standard built-in > cooling mechanisms that are found in certain types > of hardware, with the result that the system runs > faster but is less reliable. Why would disabling a cooling mechanism make the hardware run faster? Can you give a specific example? Does Windows do this? If so, where? > However, this is totally unrelated to the fact > that a lot of PC hardware is inherently unreliable. Then why did you mention it? Additionally, how does the inherent reliability (or lack thereof) of PC hardware have anything to do with software _making_ hardware unreliable, which was your original assertion? > Yes, if you take care to specify higher-quality > components that are known to work together well, > you can build a very reliable machine. Even if you are running Windows? But didn't you assert that machines running Windows were unreliable purely as a consequence of running Windows? > Not at all true. I can only go by what Mac users say, as I don't use Macs myself these days. > ... there probably isn't a single NT server in the > world that has been up and running more than two > hundred days straight. I know of many servers that have run for years at a time. > Now, Macs don't have that kind of uptime, but > that's because most people turn their Mac > off at night when they leave. That can also be said of Windows, and it is no more or less true. > Obviously, the surveys you've seen have not > accounted for all the possible variables > that are involved. That is, they don't show the numbers that you'd prefer to see. I'd prefer to see different numbers, too, but there they are. > In my many years of experience, I would say that > AOL is very representative of the server market. How many years of experience do you have, and how did this relate to AOL's use of servers, and what leads you to believe that AOL is representative? > How many decades of experience do you have that > you'd like to stack up against mine ... I do not engage in credentialism, as it is not relevant to a well-reasoned argument. > The very fact that you are willing to allow for > this statement proves that this kind of information > was not made available to you prior to your looking > at that survey. Uh ... yes--that's why I made the statement. As I said, there was no contradictory evidence. > In my experience, only if people are trying to > hide something to they avoid telling you about > the potential weaknesses or biases in the underlying > information they have available to you ... Then my spontaneous admission that information is lacking would seem to bode well for my honesty and candor. > ... which means that the Netcraft people probably > have something to hide. I'm not sure that Netcraft produced the numbers that I saw. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23:18: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B698737B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:18:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB87Hjx19422; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:17:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01b801c17fb8$70c36c50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <013e01c17fad$059cb3b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:17:45 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > The inner and outer diameter of the discs. Why are these compromises? With respect to what? > The type and color of laser used to read the > data. The fact that CDs are one-sided only, > when they could easily have been two-sided. Same questions as above. > No, they succeeded because they were good > enough, and everyone in the industry got together > and agreed that this is what they would > push. No, they succeeded on their own. DVDs, for example, took off faster than the industry anticipated--no pushing required. > It was a fait accompli -- the market never had > a chance to make a decision, because there was > never any competing products that were made available > at the time. Phonograph records and tape competed with audio CDs. VHS tape and laser discs competed with DVDs. > It still defines the analog broadcast standard, > which even the best prosumer digital cameras > available today have a hard time measuring up to. You are incorrect on both points. U-Matic is inferior to broadcast standards, and prosumer cameras can easily meet broadcast standards, and have been able to do so for quite some time. > Yes, it's obviously inferior to HDTV ... It's inferior even to Hi8. U-Matic is really quite bad. I've never understood how it has survived so long. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23:21:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8646D37B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:21:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB87Kkx19431; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:20:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01c101c17fb8$db2cc960$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "James Howard" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , References: <006c01c17f70$8782de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00de01c17fa1$06539e10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <015f01c17fae$74ebc4d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:20:46 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > No, not really. X is desirable for certain Unix > applications, yes. But not required. If you require a GUI, why wouldn't you use X? Doesn't that negate the utility and advantage provided by X in favor of UNIX? > Because, so far, Apple has decided not to > include one. I didn't ask why an X server was not included. I asked why Apple's GUI is not itself an X server. > What difference does it make if it's called > "WindowServer" or "xinit"? Or "Eudora 5.1" > or "mutt"? Or "Opera" or "Opera"? It's not in the name. > Frankly, I don't see a whole lot here that > I find unusual. It only takes one program. On MS-DOS, all you had to do was type "win." > You don't have to use most of the unusual > stuff if you don't want to. Are you sure? If I remove all the unusual stuff, for example, will the Apple GUI still operate? > Do you find the bootloader to be scary? It all depends on what it loads. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23:22:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B31C37B417 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB87M8x19441; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:22:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01c601c17fb9$0c7cd730$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org><00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a000 00a@atkielski.com><20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr><00fd01c17fa9$ ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr> <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.44640.194488.100103@guru.mired.org> <016801c17faf$6a977640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:22:08 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > So, by your definition, an IT specialist can't > have a desktop? That's not what I said. I said that I don't have any generic definition of a IT specialist's environment. > That's because most abstract concepts have > problems when you try to forcibly apply them in > totally inappropriate ways to real-world > situations. I wasn't trying to do that. I was trying to illustrate a point. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23:36:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED1437B41C for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:36:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB87ZtY19599; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:35:55 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:18:16 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:50 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> You're trying to unilaterally apply a "general" >> solution to a specific problem. > > No, I am applying a general solution to a general problem. But it's not a general problem. Therefore your "solution" is being applied inappropriately. >> I am never forced to make a recommendation. > > What if you are? Try to think of this in the abstract. I've already answered this question. If I can't get more information, then I will tell them that I can't make a recommendation based on insufficient data, and that they need to make up their own mind. There simply isn't anything that is remotely abstract about this problem or the solution to it, regardless of what you may wish. >> Then the choice is up to them how they would >> respond in that kind of situation, but my answer >> would be that I don't have enough information >> and that I would rather make no recommendation >> at all than make one that turned out to be bad >> for the person. > > You might not have that option. Sure I do. I always do. Refusing to make a decision is, in and of itself, a decision. > There seems to be quite a desire here to avoid the actual question by > claiming that one need not answer it without more information. No, I'm not avoiding the question. I'm saying that the problem is insufficiently defined and that without more information it would be impossible to come up with a proper answer. > If a non-IT, average user asks you what OS to install as his desktop, what > do you recommend, and why? You have no other information concerning his > requirements, and you do not have the option of asking for more information > or refusing to answer. Come up with a real world situation, and maybe you'll get a real world answer. So long as you continue to persist in creating totally inappropriate flights of fancy in the framing of your loaded questions, we will refuse to give you the answer you want to hear. >> Common sense? Decency? > > Neither of these is relevant. Sure they are. You are persisting in excessively annoying some of the more vocal members of this list, and given the reactions I saw last time you went on a spamming spree, I have to believe that the same situation exists here. >> Consideration for all the other poor sods on >> this mailing list who are getting bloody sick >> and tired of reading your drivel, and tired of >> being continually spammed by you on this topic? > > I don't know that I'm the greatest irritant in this discussion. If you're not, then you are certainly the cause of the greatest irritation. >> Right, and statistically, the average distance >> between atoms in this Universe is something like >> one every ten centimeters, so you don't exist. > > Correct, from the standpoint of the universe. Well, if you don't exist, then I sure wish you would acknowledge the fact that you don't exist and disappear in a poof of self-contradictory logic. >> Ghu, I wish that were true. > > Ah ... and why is that? Because you are being excessively annoying in your unending pursuit of an answer that you will not, and cannot, receive. >> The reality is that sweeping generalities of >> the sort you constantly spew are simply inappropriate >> and fundamentally incorrect, because they are >> based on flawed assumptions. > > Which assumptions are flawed? Do you dispute that Windows is the leading > desktop OS today? I do not dispute that Windows has the highest unit "sales" figures for OSes so far, but keep in mind that until recently you simply could not buy or sell an x86 machine without Windows installed (and "sold"), regardless of the purpose that the machine was going to be put to. I would most certainly dispute the use of the word "leading" being associated in any positive way with the OS family known as "Windows" from the company known as Microsoft (or, for that matter, with any products that have ever been produced by Microsoft). >> Again, what is the general case? > > The general case is applications such as file, print, and web servers. Maybe that's your general case, but I do not necessarily accept that definition. Until you can get an agreement on the basic terms of discussion, you cannot rationally make any higher-level argument. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23:36:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CE3A37B419 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:36:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB87a4Y19745; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:36:04 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <017d01c17fb5$09265600$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15377.38817.965814.78679@guru.mired.org> <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053522.GB28300@hades.hell.gr> <012901c17fab$d2a490a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <017d01c17fb5$09265600$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:28:52 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Giorgos Keramidas" , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: , "Mike Meyer" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:53 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > This is not a simple restatement of my analogy. What is its relevance? I quote an earlier statement from you: >> I know that most people use Windows on the desktop. Therefore it seems >> likely that choosing Windows for the desktop will be an acceptable choice. Let's re-write this slightly. We now have: << I know that most people [do] X [themselves]. Therefore it seems << likely that choosing [that others] X will be an acceptable choice. Now, substitute "stop breathing" for X. This looks a lot like what I said, which was: || I know that most people stop breathing at some point in their || life. Therefore it seems likely that recommending that you do || the same will be an acceptable choice. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23:36:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FA8837B41E for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB87ZwY19632; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:35:58 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <017601c17fb4$de7c8d70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org><00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a000 00a@atkielski.com><20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr><00fd01c17fa9$ ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr> <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.44640.194488.1001 03@guru.mired.org><016801c17faf$6a977640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.45255.263953.141925@guru.mired.org> <017601c17fb4$de7c8d70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:23:29 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:52 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> In that case, you should quit preaching at >> specialists about what they do. > > I have not done that. I've only pointed out that for the general case, > Windows is the obvious choice. It's a really bad idea to lie or dissemble on a public mailing list. People can go back to earlier messages that you've written and directly quote from them to prove just exactly what it is that you are up to: >> Moreover, even if they are all FreeBSD zealots >> and push their views with frothy vigour, it is not >> your responsibility to save the world from them. > > Nothing forbids me from making the attempt. You claim that you are not preaching at us IT specialists, yet you've already acknowledged that you are trying to save the world from FreeBSD zealots pushing their views with frothy vigor. So, which lie are you going to perpetrate now? -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23:37: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36DFF37B41D for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB87aFY19930; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:36:15 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <018b01c17fb5$29fa6b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr><008d01c1 7f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.m ired.org><00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.37406.600708.953634@guru.mired.org> <00d401c17fa0$09134fc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <018b01c17fb5$29fa6b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:34:45 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:54 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> I recommend that they make their own decision. > > That is not an option. You insist that it isn't. I insist that it is. Unfortunately, you can't show me the general case where you are right, because that situation doesn't exist. Yes, in the real world, there are occasionally times when you have to make a snap decision without being able to gather any further information, but in those cases you can always decide not to make a decision and pass the buck to someone else. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23:37:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8389537B422 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:36:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB87aNY20105; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:36:25 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <019401c17fb5$39918210$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr> <008d01c17f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <019401c17fb5$39918210$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:35:00 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Giorgos Keramidas" , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:54 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> I ask them "What do you want to do with it and why?" > > That is not an option. Sure it is. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23:37:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9544737B427 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB87aBY19863; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:36:11 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <018001c17fb5$1837e910$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr> <00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr> <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <018001c17fb5$1837e910$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:32:27 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Giorgos Keramidas" , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: "Mike Meyer" , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:53 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> Really? I thought that a desktop was the top >> of a desk. > > Not in this context. Well, you had not provided this information in your original scenario. Indeed, since you prohibit the possibility of ever gaining additional information on the subject, it simply is impossible to make a proper recommendation. Real-world situations give you a chance to find out more information, with this possibility of discovering that there is a basic misunderstanding in the definition of one or more of the terms of discussion. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23:50: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75DC337B417 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:50:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a041.otenet.gr [212.205.215.41]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fB87nxG01922; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:49:59 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB87nvS35483; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:49:57 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:49:55 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011208074954.GD29408@hades.hell.gr> References: <006c01c17f70$8782de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00de01c17fa1$06539e10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <015f01c17fae$74ebc4d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01c101c17fb8$db2cc960$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <01c101c17fb8$db2cc960$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-12-08 08:20:46, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Brad writes: > > Because, so far, Apple has decided not to > > include one. > > I didn't ask why an X server was not included. I asked why Apple's GUI is > not itself an X server. Is the answer "because Apple developed it, and Apple has the right, being the developer, to decide what it finds nice to develop" sufficient, or we should somehow go mind-reading and reply for the sake of Apple? Come on Anthony. Try to ask reasonable questions. Or ask on an Apple mailing list. This is freebsd-chat. > > You don't have to use most of the unusual > > stuff if you don't want to. > > Are you sure? If I remove all the unusual stuff, for example, will the > Apple GUI still operate? Similarly, redirect questions about Apple's products to Apple, please. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23:58:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E3A37B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB87w0x19567; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:58:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01e401c17fbe$0f0ae2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:57:00 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > But it's not a general problem. It isn't? If I define it so, why wouldn't it be? > I've already answered this question. No, you have avoided it. > Come up with a real world situation, and maybe > you'll get a real world answer. I've given a hypothetical situation, and I expect a hypothetical answer. > So long as you continue to persist in creating > totally inappropriate flights of fancy in the > framing of your loaded questions, we will refuse > to give you the answer you want to hear. In other words, it is impossible to answer my question without saying "Windows," and so reasons must be found not to answer it. That's what what I wished to demonstrate. > ... and given the reactions I saw last time you > went on a spamming spree ... I'm not spamming anyone, nor have I done so in the past. > Well, if you don't exist, then I sure wish > you would acknowledge the fact that you don't > exist and disappear in a poof of self-contradictory > logic. If I do not exist, then logically I cannot acknowledge anything, nor can I disappear, since I was never there in the first place. > Because you are being excessively annoying in > your unending pursuit of an answer that you will > not, and cannot, receive. I seem to annoy you, probably because I have questioned your opinions, and you have realized that you cannot objectively defend them, and you do not wish to admit that they are merely opinions, with no greater objective validity than the opinions of anyone else. > I do not dispute that Windows has the highest unit > "sales" figures for OSes so far, but keep in mind > that until recently you simply could not buy or sell > an x86 machine without Windows installed (and "sold"), > regardless of the purpose that the machine was going to > be put to. Do you not equate sales with use? If not, what is the reason for not equating them? Do you have reason to believe that Windows is being removed from a statistically-significant proportion of machines sold with the OS, and replaced with something else? If so, what else is replacing it, and what is the basis for your belief? > Maybe that's your general case, but I do not > necessarily accept that definition. What is your definition? > Until you can get an agreement on the basic terms > of discussion, you cannot rationally make any > higher-level argument. See above. I actually made my point long ago, however. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 7 23:59:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBBE137B405 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB87xOx19573; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:59:24 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01e501c17fbe$40f5f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org><00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a000 00a@atkielski.com><20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr><00fd01c17fa9$ ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr> <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.44640.194488.1001 03@guru.mired.org><016801c17faf$6a977640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.45255.263953.141925@guru.mired.org> <017601c17fb4$de7c8d70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:59:24 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > It's a really bad idea to lie or dissemble on a > public mailing list. I agree, but I've seen no evidence of you lying that I can recall. > People can go back to earlier messages that > you've written and directly quote from them to > prove just exactly what it is that you > are up to: Yes, I depend on that sometimes. > >> Moreover, even if they are all FreeBSD zealots > >> and push their views with frothy vigour, it is not > >> your responsibility to save the world from them. > > > > Nothing forbids me from making the attempt. > > You claim that you are not preaching at us IT > specialists, yet you've already acknowledged > that you are trying to save the world from > FreeBSD zealots pushing their views with frothy > vigor. Read my statement more closely. I said that nothing forbids me from making the attempt. I did not say that I was making such an attempt. > So, which lie are you going to perpetrate now? Are you calling me a liar? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0: 7:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F9D537B41C for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:07:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB886Mx19592; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:06:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01eb01c17fbf$3a992280$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: , "Mike Meyer" References: <15377.38817.965814.78679@guru.mired.org> <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053522.GB28300@hades.hell.gr> <012901c17fab$d2a490a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <017d01c17fb5$09265600$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:06:22 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > Now, substitute "stop breathing" for X. This looks a lot like > what I said, which was: No. Choice was of the essence of my observation, and you deleted it in your flawed analogy. There are other anomalies. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0: 8:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 877CF37B417 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:08:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB887jx19602; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:07:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01ef01c17fbf$6c549c50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr> <00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr> <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <018001c17fb5$1837e910$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:07:45 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > Well, you had not provided this information > in your original scenario. You assumed that I was speaking of a desktop as furniture, rather than within the context of a computer operating system? That seems like an odd assumption, in a mailing list devoted to discussion of a computer operating system. > Indeed, since you prohibit the possibility > of ever gaining additional information on the > subject, it simply is impossible to make a > proper recommendation. There's nothing impossible about it. People do this all the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0: 8:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25FBE37B416 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:08:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB888Sx19606; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:08:29 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <01f401c17fbf$854ece60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr><008d01c1 7f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.m ired.org><00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.37406.600708.953634@guru.mired.org> <00d401c17fa0$09134fc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <018b01c17fb5$29fa6b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:08:28 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > You insist that it isn't. I insist that it is. Since I came up with the hypothesis, you must respect the conditions of that hypothesis in order to answer it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0:11:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82BF937B41D for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:11:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a041.otenet.gr [212.205.215.41]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fB88BEG19000; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:11:15 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB88BFe44142; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:11:16 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:11:15 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Brad Knowles , Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011208081114.GF29408@hades.hell.gr> References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr> <00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr> <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <018001c17fb5$1837e910$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01ef01c17fbf$6c549c50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <01ef01c17fbf$6c549c50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-12-08 09:07:45, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Brad writes: > > > Indeed, since you prohibit the possibility > > of ever gaining additional information on the > > subject, it simply is impossible to make a > > proper recommendation. > > There's nothing impossible about it. People do this all the time. There's nothing impossible in asking for feedback before making recommendations too. People do this all the time. Yet you seem to be religious about it, and insist on depriving everyone from their right to choose not to suggest something, and their right to ask for more information before suggesting something. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0:12: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C0AE37B419 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:11:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB88BAx19619; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:11:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <020b01c17fbf$e5d44760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: "Brad Knowles" , References: <006c01c17f70$8782de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00de01c17fa1$06539e10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <015f01c17fae$74ebc4d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01c101c17fb8$db2cc960$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208074954.GD29408@hades.hell.gr> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:11:10 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos writes: > Is the answer "because Apple developed it, and > Apple has the right, being the developer, to > decide what it finds nice to develop" sufficient ... No. I was hoping for an explanation of why Apple chose to pass on one of the much-touted strengths of UNIX, namely, an open-standards-based, widely available implementation of a graphic user interface. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0:14:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 95E8D37B417 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:14:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 29152 invoked by uid 100); 8 Dec 2001 08:14:48 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15377.52216.641275.694469@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 02:14:48 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <01e401c17fbe$0f0ae2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01e401c17fbe$0f0ae2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > I've given a hypothetical situation, and I expect a hypothetical answer. In that case, buy a Proptronics box, as they meets all the stated requirements, and are very inexpensive. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0:19:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE8037B416 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:19:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB88J9Y07059; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:19:09 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01a601c17fb6$8f08ab50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208065638.GA29408@hades.hell.gr> <01a601c17fb6$8f08ab50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:37:25 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Giorgos Keramidas" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:04 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> More questions HAVE to be asked. > > You do not have that option, as I have repeatedly explained. Okay then, I choose to tell them to make up their own mind, because I will not make a recommendation based on insufficient data. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0:19:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4AFD37B41C for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:19:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB88JDY07141; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:19:14 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01b801c17fb8$70c36c50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <013e01c17fad$059cb3b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01b801c17fb8$70c36c50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:10:28 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:17 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> The inner and outer diameter of the discs. > > Why are these compromises? With respect to what? They were arbitrary choices. Any arbitrary choice is going to be a compromise. If you don't know the details of the arbitrary choices that were made and why, then you should just admit your ignorance. >> The type and color of laser used to read the >> data. The fact that CDs are one-sided only, >> when they could easily have been two-sided. > > Same questions as above. Same answer as above. >> No, they succeeded because they were good >> enough, and everyone in the industry got together >> and agreed that this is what they would >> push. > > No, they succeeded on their own. DVDs, for example, took off faster than > the industry anticipated--no pushing required. When there's only one type of hammer available, it doesn't take a lot of work to sell it to the people who need to nail two boards together. >> It was a fait accompli -- the market never had >> a chance to make a decision, because there was >> never any competing products that were made available >> at the time. > > Phonograph records and tape competed with audio CDs. VHS tape and laser > discs competed with DVDs. Not true. Both CDs and DVDs offered features that were inherent in the new physical form, and not available with the earlier forms of media. If Divx had been released earlier, it might have taken off. To make a proper comparison, you have to compare two (or more) competing technologies that are introduced at roughly the same time -- such as Beta vs. VHS, DVD Audio vs. SA-CD, DVD-RW vs. DVD+RW, etc.... > You are incorrect on both points. U-Matic is inferior to broadcast > standards, and prosumer cameras can easily meet broadcast standards, and > have been able to do so for quite some time. Nope. Although they may have the resolution necessary, even the best prosumer cameras are still 4:2:2, whereas broadcast standards require 4:4:4. It's not that most people can actually see the difference, but it's there. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0:19:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447F837B41D for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:19:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB88JBY07090; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:19:11 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01b101c17fb7$e45bf8e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><0069 01c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@gu ru.mired.org><008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.3661 7.358466.76379@guru.mired.org><00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielsk i.com> <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <013901c17fac$b23dc6a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01b101c17fb7$e45bf8e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:03:57 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:13 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> People are irrational, I've said that before. > > I've seen no evidence of that. Of course. The insane people always claim that they're the sane ones -- it's always the rest of the world that is insane. Just because your own actions are the height of irrationality doesn't mean that other people aren't also irrational. > Why would disabling a cooling mechanism make the hardware run faster? Can > you give a specific example? Sure. Certain Intel chips have had a built-in "NOOP" cycle. IIRC, they "rest" for one out of five cycles, which helps them run cooler. It also means that they do not run at full speed. > Does Windows do this? If so, where? Yup. Windows disables the cooling cycle, which makes it run 20% faster on that hardware, but makes the hardware less reliable. This puzzled Linux & FreeBSD hackers for a while, primarily when they were running number-crunching benchmarks and Windows on the same machine would always run faster than the exact same program running under Linux or FreeBSD. This one has been known for quite some time. >> However, this is totally unrelated to the fact >> that a lot of PC hardware is inherently unreliable. > > Then why did you mention it? I didn't. I mentioned that the OS was unreliable, in addition to unrelated unreliability in the software, and also in addition to the unrelated frequent unreliability of the hardware. Each is frequently unreliable in and of itself, independent of the others. However, there are also compound situations, where unreliability in one component causes or exacerbates unreliability in others. > Additionally, how does the inherent reliability (or lack thereof) of PC > hardware have anything to do with software _making_ hardware unreliable, > which was your original assertion? That wasn't the original assertion. Go back and re-read the paragraph. >> Yes, if you take care to specify higher-quality >> components that are known to work together well, >> you can build a very reliable machine. > > Even if you are running Windows? The hardware would be more reliable, unless the OS did things to disable reliability-enhancing features of the hardware that also made it run slower. > But didn't you assert that machines > running Windows were unreliable purely as a consequence of running Windows? Yup. >> Not at all true. > > I can only go by what Mac users say, as I don't use Macs myself these days. And I go by my own years of personal experience on the Mac, and years of personal experience on other hardware and OSes, plus the many multitude of horror stories that I hear from friends and family alike. >> ... there probably isn't a single NT server in the >> world that has been up and running more than two >> hundred days straight. > > I know of many servers that have run for years at a time. Really? Where? What were they doing? What precise version of the OS was installed? My personal experience with NT servers was a while ago, and at that point each machine would have a blue screen at least once a day, sometimes several times a day. And then, of course, there's this bullshit about having to reboot after installing any software or making any configuration changes to the OS. >> Now, Macs don't have that kind of uptime, but >> that's because most people turn their Mac >> off at night when they leave. > > That can also be said of Windows, and it is no more or less true. Not when you count intra-day uptime. By far the vast majority of Windows users that I have spoken to over the years, most end up rebooting their machine many times in a single day. Contrariwise, most Mac users I have known over the years will boot their machine when they come in and then turn it off when they leave, and not have any other shutdowns or reboots throughout. >> Obviously, the surveys you've seen have not >> accounted for all the possible variables >> that are involved. > > That is, they don't show the numbers that you'd prefer to see. I'd prefer > to see different numbers, too, but there they are. Not at all. All surveys have to be interpreted in context, and the limitations of the survey should be made clear up front. If the limitations of the survey are not made clear up front, then not only is the survey flawed, but obviously the people conducting the survey have something to hide. All I ask is that I be given all the details of precisely how the survey was conducted and how the analysis was performed, so that I can then make my own decision about what context to place the survey results. Show me the hard numbers, with all the dirty details, and I will believe them so far as they go. >> In my many years of experience, I would say that >> AOL is very representative of the server market. > > How many years of experience do you have, and how did this relate to AOL's > use of servers, and what leads you to believe that AOL is representative? Well, I've been using both Unix and the Macintosh since 1984, and I've been a Unix system administrator since 1989. I was the first Internet Mail Operations person hired by AOL (at a time when they had four Internet mail gateway machines), and when I left I was the Sr. Internet Mail Systems Administrator and was the chief technical person responsible for over a hundred different machines that we used in our subsystem alone. I also helped architect and install the AOL caching nameserver farm, capable of handling on the order of 32,000-64,000 DNS queries per second -- indeed, this is probably still the world's largest nameserver installation, although a.root-servers.net is getting up there (and can handle considerably more traffic than it sees today), and the GNS machines operated by Nominum may well surpass these kinds of rates once they get fully utilized. Since then, I've done consulting work at a wide variety of clients (some big and some small), and I believe that I have enough experience to make this kind of determination. >> How many decades of experience do you have that >> you'd like to stack up against mine ... > > I do not engage in credentialism, as it is not relevant to a well-reasoned > argument. Well, without knowing your experience and how you came to know the things you do, the only thing we can judge you on is the kinds of things you say on the mailing list. In that context, I'd say that you're a bigoted Windows crackpot who is trolling for arguments. I was at least hoping that you'd be able to help dispel this image by sharing with us some information on your background. > Then my spontaneous admission that information is lacking would seem to bode > well for my honesty and candor. No, not really. It simply shows that you're either trying to revise history, or that you're ignorant enough that you didn't set up the scenario properly before you asked the stupid question in the first place. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0:19:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08D4137B419 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:19:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB88JPY07408; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:19:26 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01c601c17fb9$0c7cd730$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org><00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a000 00a@atkielski.com><20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr><00fd01c17fa9$ ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr> <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.44640.194488.100103@guru.mired.org> <016801c17faf$6a977640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01c601c17fb9$0c7cd730$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:16:56 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:22 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> So, by your definition, an IT specialist can't >> have a desktop? > > That's not what I said. I said that I don't have any generic definition of > a IT specialist's environment. Well, since you're waving your private parts around in the faces of a whole collection of IT specialists, I suggest that this is a definition that you desperately need before you can possibly continue your quest to eliminate everything from this world that is not Microsoft, and before you can eliminate all the people from this world that would do such dangerous things as to actually ask what people want to do with their machine and why, before recommending an OS for them to use. >> That's because most abstract concepts have >> problems when you try to forcibly apply them in >> totally inappropriate ways to real-world >> situations. > > I wasn't trying to do that. I was trying to illustrate a point. That may not have been what you were consciously trying to do, but that was precisely the end result of your sad attempt. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0:19:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D31E237B417 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:19:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB88JKY07294; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:19:20 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01c101c17fb8$db2cc960$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <006c01c17f70$8782de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00de01c17fa1$06539e10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <015f01c17fae$74ebc4d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01c101c17fb8$db2cc960$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:14:31 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "James Howard" , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:20 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > If you require a GUI, why wouldn't you use X? Because Aqua is available. Because Aqua is defined as the standard GUI for MacOS X. Because there are already way more applications that work in Aqua than work in X. Because the applications that are available in both Aqua and X are much better in their Aqua incarnation. Because Aqua is measurably better. > Doesn't that negate the > utility and advantage provided by X in favor of UNIX? The only reason to have X is to maintain backward compatibility. >> Because, so far, Apple has decided not to >> include one. > > I didn't ask why an X server was not included. I asked why Apple's GUI is > not itself an X server. Dunno. Ask Apple. >> Frankly, I don't see a whole lot here that >> I find unusual. > > It only takes one program. On MS-DOS, all you had to do was type "win." Right. Like this was actually just a single program. >> You don't have to use most of the unusual >> stuff if you don't want to. > > Are you sure? If I remove all the unusual stuff, for example, will the > Apple GUI still operate? Tell me -- under Windows, if you remove everything that is not MS-DOS but the one program named "win", will the GUI still operate? -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0:24:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.jodeit.com (mail.jodeit.com [207.10.131.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E226937B416 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:24:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from gdennyj [207.10.131.111] by mail.jodeit.com (SMTPD32-6.06) id ABCAA840154; Sat, 08 Dec 2001 03:14:02 -0500 Message-ID: <029f01c17fc2$7c3f7100$6f830acf@gdennyj> From: "Denny Jodeit" To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 03:29:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org PROCLAMATION !!!!!!!!!!! ....from this point forward, this thread shall be known as 'The War of $0.75 Words" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" ; ; "Brad Knowles" Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 1:50 AM Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. > Brad writes: > > > You're trying to unilaterally apply a "general" > > solution to a specific problem. > > No, I am applying a general solution to a general problem. > > > I am never forced to make a recommendation. > > What if you are? Try to think of this in the abstract. > > > Then the choice is up to them how they would > > respond in that kind of situation, but my answer > > would be that I don't have enough information > > and that I would rather make no recommendation > > at all than make one that turned out to be bad > > for the person. > > You might not have that option. > > There seems to be quite a desire here to avoid the actual question by > claiming that one need not answer it without more information. > > If a non-IT, average user asks you what OS to install as his desktop, what > do you recommend, and why? You have no other information concerning his > requirements, and you do not have the option of asking for more information > or refusing to answer. > > > Common sense? Decency? > > Neither of these is relevant. > > > Consideration for all the other poor sods on > > this mailing list who are getting bloody sick > > and tired of reading your drivel, and tired of > > being continually spammed by you on this topic? > > I don't know that I'm the greatest irritant in this discussion. > > > Right, and statistically, the average distance > > between atoms in this Universe is something like > > one every ten centimeters, so you don't exist. > > Correct, from the standpoint of the universe. > > > Ghu, I wish that were true. > > Ah ... and why is that? > > > The reality is that sweeping generalities of > > the sort you constantly spew are simply inappropriate > > and fundamentally incorrect, because they are > > based on flawed assumptions. > > Which assumptions are flawed? Do you dispute that Windows is the leading > desktop OS today? > > > Again, what is the general case? > > The general case is applications such as file, print, and web servers. > Mainframes are not generally an advantage for these types of applications. > For specific proprietary and legacy applications, mainframes may be the best > (or only) choice, e.g., large airline reservation systems, large OLTP > systems of various types, batch processing, and so on. > > > I know of plenty of situations where mainframe > > machines are precisely the best kind of server to > > use, because they are so very good at handling > > very large volumes of I/O with otherwise limited > > resources. > > Most servers are not used in this way. Situations that require mainframes > are generally already managed by specialists in mainframes. > > > A meaningless circular definition. > > The definition is not circular. Average = ordinary, common, and thus > representative of the majority. > > > Again, that is not necessarily true. > > I know that it is not _necessarily_ true; I've only asserted that it is > generally true. > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0:46:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 015EC37B405 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:46:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB88kEY00342; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:46:15 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01e401c17fbe$0f0ae2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01e401c17fbe$0f0ae2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:45:46 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:57 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> But it's not a general problem. > > It isn't? If I define it so, why wouldn't it be? You can't define an orange to be a pear. Sure, you can play all the word games you want, and call them xyzzx and slartybartfast and then swap the labels around all you want, but that doesn't change the fundamental nature of the two different types of fruit. >> So long as you continue to persist in creating >> totally inappropriate flights of fancy in the >> framing of your loaded questions, we will refuse >> to give you the answer you want to hear. > > In other words, it is impossible to answer my question without saying > "Windows," and so reasons must be found not to answer it. That's what what > I wished to demonstrate. No, you've concocted a totally unrealistic "general" situation where you cannot possible accept any answer other than "Windows", and we're refusing to give you the answer that you crave. > I'm not spamming anyone, nor have I done so in the past. Claims to the contrary and all attempts at revisionist history don't change the facts. > I seem to annoy you, probably because I have questioned your opinions, and > you have realized that you cannot objectively defend them, and you do not > wish to admit that they are merely opinions, with no greater objective > validity than the opinions of anyone else. No, you annoy me because you concoct totally asinine situations in which you will not accept any answer other than the one you want to hear, and then you whine and bitch and moan when people poke holes in your supposedly perfect situation, and you make attempts to revise history to fix the holes that are identified. If you want to talk about the real world, there have been situations where I have recommended that people choose Windows for their computers. This is because they needed a machine that could run the same programs as their machine at work, or because there was a local friend or family member who was likely to provide most of the user support and that friend or family member knew only Windows, or they wanted to trade programs with friends or family members who already had Windows, or other perfectly logical reasons. However, under the same circumstances, I have also recommended to people that they go with an Amiga, or Macintosh, or any of several other choices over the years. I am a MacFanatic myself, but when answering questions like this in the real world, I go out of my way to make this bias clear to the person asking the question, and I make a point of trying to help them come to a perfectly rational decision for perfectly rational reasons. But I refuse to be dragged down your artificial rat hole. >> I do not dispute that Windows has the highest unit >> "sales" figures for OSes so far, but keep in mind >> that until recently you simply could not buy or sell >> an x86 machine without Windows installed (and "sold"), >> regardless of the purpose that the machine was going to >> be put to. > > Do you not equate sales with use? No, I don't. Indeed, I even question whether these could be called "sales" at all, since Microsoft actually provides a kick-back to the vendor for every machine sold with Windows pre-installed. > If not, what is the reason for not > equating them? Kick-backs? > Do you have reason to believe that Windows is being removed > from a statistically-significant proportion of machines sold with the OS, > and replaced with something else? Depends on how you define "statistically significant". > If so, what else is replacing it, and > what is the basis for your belief? Based on what evidence I've encountered so far, it seems that various different Linux distributions and FreeBSD are pretty popular replacements. >> Until you can get an agreement on the basic terms >> of discussion, you cannot rationally make any >> higher-level argument. > > See above. I actually made my point long ago, however. If you made the point you wanted to make, then why are you continuing to spam everyone? Oh, right. I also forgot that you have last-word-itis. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0:48:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 831CC37B41B for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:48:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB88mMY02807; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:48:22 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01e501c17fbe$40f5f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org><00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a000 00a@atkielski.com><20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr><00fd01c17fa9$ ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr> <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.44640.194488.1001 03@guru.mired.org><016801c17faf$6a977640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.45255.263953.141925@guru.mired.org> <017601c17fb4$de7c8d70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01e501c17fbe$40f5f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:37:18 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:59 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> You claim that you are not preaching at us IT >> specialists, yet you've already acknowledged >> that you are trying to save the world from >> FreeBSD zealots pushing their views with frothy >> vigor. > > Read my statement more closely. I said that nothing forbids me from making > the attempt. I did not say that I was making such an attempt. The very statement that "nothing forbids me..." provides a very clear implication that this is indeed precisely what you are trying to do. Any attempt on your part to apply further revisionist history at this stage is not going to help matters. >> So, which lie are you going to perpetrate now? > > Are you calling me a liar? Yup. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0:48:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D6D337B41B for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:48:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB88mQY02879; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:48:28 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01ef01c17fbf$6c549c50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr> <00fd01c17fa9$ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr> <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <018001c17fb5$1837e910$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01ef01c17fbf$6c549c50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:42:37 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Giorgos Keramidas" , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: "Mike Meyer" , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:07 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> Well, you had not provided this information >> in your original scenario. > > You assumed that I was speaking of a desktop as furniture, rather than > within the context of a computer operating system? That seems like an odd > assumption, in a mailing list devoted to discussion of a computer operating > system. That's the sort of thing that happens in the real world. Some people see words like "desktop" and they automatically assume that everyone will share their personal private definition of this term, and the reality is that this is not true. In this particular case, it was your omission of the word "computer" that confused me. You said "desktop" when you should have said "desktop computer". When concocting totally arbitrary and asinine hypothetical situations in the future, you would do well to remember that it would be very useful to be omniscient as well, so that you can know precisely what basic terms may need to be defined and provide a suitably bizarre description, so that your masterpiece cannot be picked apart on initial inspection. >> Indeed, since you prohibit the possibility >> of ever gaining additional information on the >> subject, it simply is impossible to make a >> proper recommendation. > > There's nothing impossible about it. People do this all the time. Not in your hypothetical situation they don't. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0:48:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5587D37B416 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:48:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB88mVY02952; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:48:31 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <020b01c17fbf$e5d44760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <006c01c17f70$8782de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00de01c17fa1$06539e10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <015f01c17fae$74ebc4d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01c101c17fb8$db2cc960$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208074954.GD29408@hades.hell.gr> <020b01c17fbf$e5d44760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:45:02 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Giorgos Keramidas" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: "Brad Knowles" , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:11 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> Is the answer "because Apple developed it, and >> Apple has the right, being the developer, to >> decide what it finds nice to develop" sufficient ... > > No. I was hoping for an explanation of why Apple chose to pass on one of > the much-touted strengths of UNIX, namely, an open-standards-based, widely > available implementation of a graphic user interface. Because they've got something that is better? That sounds like a pretty good answer to me. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0:48:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B56A37B41D for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB88mcY03078; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:48:38 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01f401c17fbf$854ece60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr><008d01c1 7f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.m ired.org><00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.37406.600708.953634@guru.mired.org> <00d401c17fa0$09134fc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <018b01c17fb5$29fa6b50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01f401c17fbf$854ece60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:47:10 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Mike Meyer" , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:08 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> You insist that it isn't. I insist that it is. > > Since I came up with the hypothesis, you must respect the conditions of that > hypothesis in order to answer it. Nope. Especially since you didn't completely define the hypothesis, and have agreement from us as to precisely what all the definitions were for the basic terms. In that context, I'm free to provide my own answer in my own context, based on my own interpretation of the basic terms and the hypothetical situation. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0:49: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC77F37B417 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:48:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB88meY03131; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:48:40 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01eb01c17fbf$3a992280$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <15377.38817.965814.78679@guru.mired.org> <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053522.GB28300@hades.hell.gr> <012901c17fab$d2a490a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <017d01c17fb5$09265600$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01eb01c17fbf$3a992280$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:47:49 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Giorgos Keramidas" , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Cc: , "Mike Meyer" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:06 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> Now, substitute "stop breathing" for X. This looks a lot like >> what I said, which was: > > No. Choice was of the essence of my observation, and you deleted it in your > flawed analogy. There are other anomalies. No, you could certainly choose to stop breathing. Speaking only for myself, I would certainly prefer that you make this choice. I also have to believe that there are plenty of others who feel the same way. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0:49:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F271D37B405 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:48:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB88mYY02994; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:48:34 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01e401c17fbe$0f0ae2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01e401c17fbe$0f0ae2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:45:46 +0100 To: "Anthony Atkielski" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:57 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> But it's not a general problem. > > It isn't? If I define it so, why wouldn't it be? You can't define an orange to be a pear. Sure, you can play all the word games you want, and call them xyzzx and slartybartfast and then swap the labels around all you want, but that doesn't change the fundamental nature of the two different types of fruit. >> So long as you continue to persist in creating >> totally inappropriate flights of fancy in the >> framing of your loaded questions, we will refuse >> to give you the answer you want to hear. > > In other words, it is impossible to answer my question without saying > "Windows," and so reasons must be found not to answer it. That's what what > I wished to demonstrate. No, you've concocted a totally unrealistic "general" situation where you cannot possible accept any answer other than "Windows", and we're refusing to give you the answer that you crave. > I'm not spamming anyone, nor have I done so in the past. Claims to the contrary and all attempts at revisionist history don't change the facts. > I seem to annoy you, probably because I have questioned your opinions, and > you have realized that you cannot objectively defend them, and you do not > wish to admit that they are merely opinions, with no greater objective > validity than the opinions of anyone else. No, you annoy me because you concoct totally asinine situations in which you will not accept any answer other than the one you want to hear, and then you whine and bitch and moan when people poke holes in your supposedly perfect situation, and you make attempts to revise history to fix the holes that are identified. If you want to talk about the real world, there have been situations where I have recommended that people choose Windows for their computers. This is because they needed a machine that could run the same programs as their machine at work, or because there was a local friend or family member who was likely to provide most of the user support and that friend or family member knew only Windows, or they wanted to trade programs with friends or family members who already had Windows, or other perfectly logical reasons. However, under the same circumstances, I have also recommended to people that they go with an Amiga, or Macintosh, or any of several other choices over the years. I am a MacFanatic myself, but when answering questions like this in the real world, I go out of my way to make this bias clear to the person asking the question, and I make a point of trying to help them come to a perfectly rational decision for perfectly rational reasons. But I refuse to be dragged down your artificial rat hole. >> I do not dispute that Windows has the highest unit >> "sales" figures for OSes so far, but keep in mind >> that until recently you simply could not buy or sell >> an x86 machine without Windows installed (and "sold"), >> regardless of the purpose that the machine was going to >> be put to. > > Do you not equate sales with use? No, I don't. Indeed, I even question whether these could be called "sales" at all, since Microsoft actually provides a kick-back to the vendor for every machine sold with Windows pre-installed. > If not, what is the reason for not > equating them? Kick-backs? > Do you have reason to believe that Windows is being removed > from a statistically-significant proportion of machines sold with the OS, > and replaced with something else? Depends on how you define "statistically significant". > If so, what else is replacing it, and > what is the basis for your belief? Based on what evidence I've encountered so far, it seems that various different Linux distributions and FreeBSD are pretty popular replacements. >> Until you can get an agreement on the basic terms >> of discussion, you cannot rationally make any >> higher-level argument. > > See above. I actually made my point long ago, however. If you made the point you wanted to make, then why are you continuing to spam everyone? Oh, right. I also forgot that you have last-word-itis. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 0:54:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5833D37B416 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.16] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fB88s1Y09294; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:54:01 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <029f01c17fc2$7c3f7100$6f830acf@gdennyj> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <029f01c17fc2$7c3f7100$6f830acf@gdennyj> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:52:50 +0100 To: "Denny Jodeit" , "Anthony Atkielski" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: The War of $0.75 Words (was: Re: A breath of fresh air..) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:29 AM -0500 on 2001/12/08, Denny Jodeit wrote: > PROCLAMATION !!!!!!!!!!! > ....from this point forward, this thread shall be known as 'The War of $0.75 > Words" Hehehehe. I like that. I think I'll use that as the new subject line. Thanks! -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 1:23:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B7CD37B419 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 01:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB89NGx19816; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:23:16 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <023a01c17fc9$f811e180$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Brad Knowles" Cc: References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><0069 01c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@gu ru.mired.org><008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.3661 7.358466.76379@guru.mired.org><00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielsk i.com> <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <013901c17fac$b23dc6a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01b101c17fb7$e45bf8e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:23:15 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > Of course. The insane people always claim that > they're the sane ones -- it's always the rest > of the world that is insane. I've seen no evidence that people are generally insane, either. That seems even less plausible than widespread irrationality. > Certain Intel chips have had a built-in "NOOP" > cycle. IIRC, they "rest" for one out of five > cycles, which helps them run cooler. It also > means that they do not run at full speed. Do you have a reference for this? > Windows disables the cooling cycle, which makes > it run 20% faster on that hardware, but makes > the hardware less reliable. Really? Where in the code does it do this? I'd be very surprised if any version of Windows attempts to do anything that hardware-specific. I know that consumer versions of Windows apparently never bother to halt the processor; even when the system is idle, the processor is going full tilt in an endless loop. Windows NT/2000/XP, as well as UNIX, halt the processor when the system is idle. Halting the processor makes it run cooler, but not halting it does not reduce reliability, unless the processor is defective and/or the PC design is flawed (allowing the processor to overheat). > This one has been known for quite some time. Then perhaps you can point me to a Web site that discusses it in greater detail. > I mentioned that the OS was unreliable, in > addition to unrelated unreliability in the > software, and also in addition to the unrelated > frequent unreliability of the hardware. How do you quantify these, and why do you appear to assert a connection between the OS and the reliability of the hardware? > And I go by my own years of personal experience > on the Mac ... Those who have complained of Mac crashes to me had years of experience, too. My impression is that Mac users, like Windows users, simply get used to crashes, and never realize that these are not normal things for an operating system. > Really? Where? What were they doing? What > precise version of the OS was installed? At a company where I used to work. They were file servers and domain controllers, mostly, but also mail and web servers (I don't know if the mail and web servers had those uptimes). The usual OS was NT 4.0, although some machines obviously ran NT 3.x prior to that, and they are probably all running Windows 2000 now. > My personal experience with NT servers was a > while ago, and at that point each machine would > have a blue screen at least once a day, > sometimes several times a day. I've never seen any NT server that unstable. What was _running_ on these machines? > And then, of course, there's this bullshit about > having to reboot after installing any software or > making any configuration changes to the OS. It is very irritating. I'm very pleased to see that FreeBSD seems not to require this. In fact, FreeBSD has won the mini-contest I had running this week, to see how long either system could go without a boot. I managed to avoid booting NT by not making any configuration changes (even changing a network parameter requires a reboot in NT--it's amazing!), but a persistent bug in a driver somewhere that has haunted me since I installed ADSL in conjunction with my existing ISDN card finally crashed the system--it causes occasional BSODs, and I don't know why, and it is too risky to try to fix it. That left the FreeBSD system in charge, which has now been running for nine days. Before I had this mystery problem with the network driver, however, my NT system could stay up for weeks at a time--essentially it would stay up until I booted it (I never went more than two or three weeks without shutting it off or rebooting it for something, however). > By far the vast majority of Windows users that > I have spoken to over the years, most end up > rebooting their machine many times in a single day. I'd say that only 1 in 20 Windows users with whom I've spoken has had to do that, and the others don't have to reboot at all, or very rarely. As elsewhere in computerland, about 5% of all users experience 95% of all problems. In this particular context, the usual cause is unusual applications or drivers (the same problem I'm having myself with NT). > Well, without knowing your experience and how > you came to know the things you do, the only > thing we can judge you on is the kinds of > things you say on the mailing list. Exactly. I'd prefer that my statements stand or fall on their technical merits alone. My credentials are irrelevant; if the arguments are invalid, they remain so no matter what my credentials, and vice versa. Similarly, your own statements here stand or fall on their own merits, at least in my own objective interpretation, so citing your credentials accomplishes nothing. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 1:29:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E74AC37B41B for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 01:29:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB89Tdx19833; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:29:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <023f01c17fca$dcd59230$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <013e01c17fad$059cb3b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01b801c17fb8$70c36c50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:29:38 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > They were arbitrary choices. Any arbitrary > choice is going to be a compromise. No. "Arbitrary" means "determined through individual choice or discretion" and thus has nothing to do with compromise. A choice made as a compromise, without any such subjective influence, is not arbitrary. Arbitration excludes objective bases for a decision, by definition. > If you don't know the details of the arbitrary > choices that were made and why, then you > should just admit your ignorance. If they are arbitrary, there were no details. If there were details, and you know them, perhaps you could summarize them here, as I asked. > When there's only one type of hammer available, > it doesn't take a lot of work to sell it to > the people who need to nail two boards > together. There were already several media available, including VHS tapes and high-quality laser discs. But DVDs overtook them both anyway. > Both CDs and DVDs offered features that were > inherent in the new physical form, and not > available with the earlier forms of media. So? That hardly argues for marketing as the agent of their success. > Nope. Although they may have the resolution > necessary, even the best prosumer cameras are > still 4:2:2, whereas broadcast standards require > 4:4:4. It's not that most people can actually > see the difference, but it's there. It's not there at all, outside the studio. The image received by the consumer, even with the best TV he can buy, is vastly inferior to what he can produce with his video camera. As for "broadcast" standards _within_ the studio, all that ever really means is "the most expensive equipment available." U-Matic (aka BVU, IIRC, which proves my point) met this criterion at one time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 1:32:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 203C837B419 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 01:32:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB89W7x19842; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:32:08 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <024801c17fcb$351f0ac0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "James Howard" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , References: <006c01c17f70$8782de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00de01c17fa1$06539e10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <015f01c17fae$74ebc4d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01c101c17fb8$db2cc960$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:32:07 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > Because Aqua is available. Available? You're saying it was written and ready to go before Apple started work on OS X? I thought it was specifically written for that OS, or perhaps I'm confusing terms. > The only reason to have X is to maintain backward > compatibility. Compatibility with open-source and open standards, you mean, as opposed to the proprietary Apple future? > Tell me -- under Windows, if you remove > everything that is not MS-DOS but the one > program named "win", will the GUI still operate? I never tried it, but I suspect not. But no one tried to say that Windows was just a standard MS-DOS system with a few extra programs. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 1:40:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 842FC37B405 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 01:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB89dvx19856; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:39:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <025d01c17fcc$4c8783d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01e401c17fbe$0f0ae2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:39:51 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > You can't define an orange to be a pear. I can make general statements about fruits that apply to both. I can also make general statements about fruits that remain valid even though there may be specific exceptions. > Claims to the contrary and all attempts at > revisionist history don't change the facts. The original claims do not establish facts, either. > No, you annoy me because ... I know why I annoy you; you don't have to explain. > Depends on how you define "statistically significant". Well, let's say two percent or more. So? > Based on what evidence I've encountered so far, > it seems that various different Linux distributions > and FreeBSD are pretty popular replacements. How would you quantify "pretty popular"? According to my Web stats at this very moment, all visitors to my site under all versions of UNIX put together represent only 0.4% of total visits. Either there are not many out there, or they are keeping an extremely low profile. > If you made the point you wanted to make, > then why are you continuing to spam everyone? I'm not spamming anyone. There's just a certain entertainment value in watching the hotheaded young males tilt at windmills. They must be difficult to work with in a professional environment, though. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 1:41:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42AFD37B41D for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 01:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB89fNx19864; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:41:24 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <026201c17fcc$801face0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: References: <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org><00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a000 00a@atkielski.com><20011208043931.GA27716@hades.hell.gr><00fd01c17fa9$ ccf20c20$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011208053552.GC28300@hades.hell.gr> <013201c17fab$fc6e3260$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.44640.194488.1001 03@guru.mired.org><016801c17faf$6a977640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.45255.263953.141925@guru.mired.org> <017601c17fb4$de7c8d70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01e501c17fbe$40f5f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:41:23 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > The very statement that "nothing forbids me..." > provides a very clear implication that this is > indeed precisely what you are trying to do. An implication and an explicit statement are two different things. > Yup. As you've indicated, messages in public archives tend to live forever. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 1:43:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E39D937B416 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 01:43:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB89gfx19869; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:42:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <026b01c17fcc$af2c3350$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: "Brad Knowles" , References: <006c01c17f70$8782de50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00de01c17fa1$06539e10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <015f01c17fae$74ebc4d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01c101c17fb8$db2cc960$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208074954.GD29408@hades.hell.gr> <020b01c17fbf$e5d44760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:42:41 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > Because they've got something that is better? So Apple has something better than UNIX for the desktop? What about Microsoft? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 1:45:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B03537B417 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 01:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB89idx19874; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:44:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <027601c17fcc$f521bf10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: , "Mike Meyer" References: <15377.38817.965814.78679@guru.mired.org> <00f801c17fa9$7f3a6ae0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208053522.GB28300@hades.hell.gr> <012901c17fab$d2a490a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <017d01c17fb5$09265600$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01eb01c17fbf$3a992280$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:44:39 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > No, you could certainly choose to stop breathing. Not possible. Voluntary cessation of breathing, even if prolonged, can only result in unconsciousness, and once unconsciousness ensues, normal breathing resumes. > Speaking only for myself, I would certainly > prefer that you make this choice. Why is that? > I also have to believe that there are plenty > of others who feel the same way. What compels you to believe that? Perhaps these "others" will speak for themselves, instead of allowing you to speculate on how they feel. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 1:50:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4981437B416 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 01:50:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0029.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.29] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Ce7r-0000mX-00; Sat, 08 Dec 2001 01:50:31 -0800 Message-ID: <3C11E26F.A0DE7E4B@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 01:50:39 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org><008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.36617.358466.76379@guru.mired.org> <00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > The average user's requirements are best met by Windows. Therefore, in the > absence of specific information contraindicating this generalization, the > recommendation to an average user should always be to install Windows on the > desktop. Actually, since the "average user" is an OS/2 user of an ATM or cash register, the "average user's requirements" are best met by OS/2. > I spend my time destroying idols and deprogramming cult victims. How can you argue, with logic like that? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 1:53:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E7F337B419 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 01:53:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0029.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.29] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16CeAY-000257-00; Sat, 08 Dec 2001 01:53:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3C11E316.74219F3E@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 01:53:26 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><20011207233330.GC14758@hades.hell.gr><008d01c17f9a$9046ba50$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.36760.704000.108034@guru.mired.org><00be01c17f9d$472c8ea0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.37406.600708.953634@guru.mired.org> <00d401c17fa0$09134fc0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > To not waste their money on something they > > have no use for. > > And if they insist on buying something anyway, as they often do? What do > you recommend then? An Etch-a-sketch(tm). They rebbot by turning them upside down and shaking them. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 1:55:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41DA437B417 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 01:55:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB89tgx19905; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:55:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <02a601c17fce$8070c830$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org><008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.36617.358466.76379@guru.mired.org> <00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11E26F.A0DE7E4B@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:55:02 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > Actually, since the "average user" is an > OS/2 user of an ATM or cash register, the > "average user's requirements" are best met by > OS/2. ATMs and cash registers are not desktops. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 2: 2: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6D337B41B for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 02:02:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0029.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.29] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16CeIy-0006Ma-00; Sat, 08 Dec 2001 02:02:00 -0800 Message-ID: <3C11E520.7F0EA43B@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 02:02:08 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Anthony Atkielski , Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><0069 01c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@gu ru.mired.org><008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.3661 7.358466.76379@guru.mired.org><00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielsk i.com> <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > For someone who truly has no idea what they want to use the > computer for, Windows would probably be the worst possible choice you > could give them -- unreliable OS, unreliable software, and frequently > unreliable hardware. One of my first consulting jobs, back when I was in my teens, was for a small nursery/flower shop. They wanted a computer because they wanted to keep track of payment terms for people who were some of their largest customers, but had a habit of paying very slowly, or needing reminding. So they had a class of general payment terms, and then they had special classes specific to the customers in question. After analyzing what the problem, and determining that they in fact didn't want to blacklist these people, I arrived at the, in my opinion, perfect solution. The last time I checked, they still keep their 3x5 card file next to the cash register. I still get referrals from them for business, even though it has been well over a decade since the last time I took a consulting contract. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 2: 4:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3153837B405 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 02:04:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0029.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.29] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16CeLQ-0007Th-00; Sat, 08 Dec 2001 02:04:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3C11E5B8.1355AC2D@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 02:04:40 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Anthony Atkielski , Mike Meyer , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > You get bunny points if you can tell me the reason why the > external diameter of the CD was selected. You get extra bunny points > if you can tell me the real reason why the inner diameter of the CD > was selected. 1) So they wouldn't fit floppy drives. 2) So they wouldn't fit LP or 45 record player spindles. 8^). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 4:56: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.slackwit.com (static37.dsl.compuage.net [63.151.205.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAF3C37B416 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 04:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by www.slackwit.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id CFC0318CB2; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:55:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:55:45 -0500 From: Kelly Hendrix To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011208075545.A18185@www.slackwit.com> Reply-To: Kelly Hendrix References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org> <008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 04:40:32AM +0100 X-Freebsd-Version: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 04:40:32AM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > As a group, people do not tend to make irrational choices. Have you ever heard of a lynch mob, or mob justice? Have you ever witnessed a riot or its aftermath? From my own personal experience, I have done things with a group that as an individual I would never even dreamed of doing. (Details left out to protect me :) Point is, within a group action is more likely to be determined by momentum than by rational thinking. -- ______________________________________________________________________ | There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a | | miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. | | | | Albert Einstein (1879-1955) | |______________________________________________________________________| To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 6:30:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9485237B405 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:30:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB8EUgx20482; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:30:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <02e101c17ff4$ebf208a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Kelly Hendrix" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org> <008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208075545.A18185@www.slackwit.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:30:43 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kelly writes: > Have you ever heard of a lynch mob, or > mob justice? Yes. Have you ever heard of societies, governments, and democracies? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 7:11: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.slackwit.com (static37.dsl.compuage.net [63.151.205.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0473437B41B for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:11:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by www.slackwit.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8202F18CB2; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:11:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:11:03 -0500 From: Kelly Hendrix To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Kelly Hendrix , Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011208101103.B18185@www.slackwit.com> Reply-To: Kelly Hendrix References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org> <008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208075545.A18185@www.slackwit.com> <02e101c17ff4$ebf208a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <02e101c17ff4$ebf208a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 03:30:43PM +0100 X-Freebsd-Version: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 03:30:43PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Kelly writes: > > > Have you ever heard of a lynch mob, or > > mob justice? > > Yes. Have you ever heard of societies, governments, and democracies? Yes. And these entities always make sound decisions based on rational thinking? > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ______________________________________________________________________ | There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a | | miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. | | | | Albert Einstein (1879-1955) | |______________________________________________________________________| To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 7:18:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A45A37B41B for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:18:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([62.253.144.106]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20011208151844.GPLJ27606.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com>; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:18:44 +0000 Received: from boog.goatsucker.org (boog.goatsucker.org [192.168.1.3]) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fB8FIen63526; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:18:40 GMT (envelope-from scott@boog.goatsucker.org) Received: (from scott@localhost) by boog.goatsucker.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA02658; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:18:08 GMT (envelope-from scott) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:18:07 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011208151807.A280@localhost> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 <15377.37214.213789.306335@guru.mired.org> <00c901c17f9f$e80a95e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <013901c17fac$b23dc6a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01b101c17fb7$e45bf8e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <01b101c17fb7$e45bf8e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 08:13:51AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 08:13:51AM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Brad writes: > > > People are irrational, I've said that before. > > I've seen no evidence of that. rational (adj.) 1. using reason or logic in thinking out a problem. 2. in accordance with the principles or logic or reason. (Collins dictionary, 1987 edition) Yep, human beings are just *so* rational. That of course explains why we have so much war, poverty, environmental degradation, religion, racism, sexism, all those other unpleasant -isms, etc. And presumably why we all continue to participate in fun threads like this one, when it is so clearly in accordance with the principles of logic and reason. -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 7:23: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FF8F37B405 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([62.253.144.106]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20011208152302.GRSX27606.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com>; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:23:02 +0000 Received: from boog.goatsucker.org (boog.goatsucker.org [192.168.1.3]) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fB8FMxn63537; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:22:59 GMT (envelope-from scott@boog.goatsucker.org) Received: (from scott@localhost) by boog.goatsucker.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA02687; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:22:26 GMT (envelope-from scott) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:22:26 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Terry Lambert Cc: Anthony Atkielski , Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011208152226.B280@localhost> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org><008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.36617.358466.76379@guru.mired.org> <00ab01c17f9d$0bde8510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11E26F.A0DE7E4B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <3C11E26F.A0DE7E4B@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 01:50:39AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 01:50:39AM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > The average user's requirements are best met by Windows. Therefore, in the > > absence of specific information contraindicating this generalization, the > > recommendation to an average user should always be to install Windows on the > > desktop. > > Actually, since the "average user" is an OS/2 user of an ATM or > cash register, the "average user's requirements" are best met by > OS/2. If only they were... half of the ATMs around here run NT these days, judging by the BSODs they display almost as often as anything useful :-( -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 7:34:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0B4837B405 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:34:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB8FYSx20613; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:34:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <03cf01c17ffd$d784e9b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Kelly Hendrix" Cc: "Kelly Hendrix" , "Mike Meyer" , References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.18218.830731.410656@guru.mired.org> <008101c17f9a$1a4a4290$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208075545.A18185@www.slackwit.com> <02e101c17ff4$ebf208a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208101103.B18185@www.slackwit.com> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:34:24 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kelly writes: > And these entities always make sound decisions > based on rational thinking? Not always, but usually. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 7:44:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D10637B405 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:44:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([62.253.144.106]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20011208154432.ETOF3849.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com>; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:44:32 +0000 Received: from boog.goatsucker.org (boog.goatsucker.org [192.168.1.3]) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fB8FiVn63608; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:44:31 GMT (envelope-from scott@boog.goatsucker.org) Received: (from scott@localhost) by boog.goatsucker.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA02839; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:43:59 GMT (envelope-from scott) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:43:59 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brad Knowles Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011208154358.C280@localhost> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <013e01c17fad$059cb3b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <013e01c17fad$059cb3b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 06:56:03AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 06:56:03AM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Brad writes: > > > Yes they do. > > I usually see them in stores buying as individuals. > Indeed, where they will invariably purchase a machine running Windows, because that's all that the store sells, because that's all that most manufacturers produce. I wonder why that might be? Surely nothing to do with the licencing practices of a certain monopolist company? I doubt that most of these customers are asked about their requirements much beyond 'how much are you willing spend', nor are they told that any alternatives to Windows might exist. -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 7:44:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B545E37B416 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:44:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 16Cjec-000Pa2-00; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:44:42 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id fB8Fif261567; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:44:41 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:44:41 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Can someone explain the Passport/Kerberos connection? Message-ID: <20011208154441.A61548@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20011207161949.B48707@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from jcwells@highperformance.net on Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 08:53:41AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 08:53:41AM -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: | On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, j mckitrick wrote: | | > I have a basic understanding how Kerberos works, with tickets, | > encryption, and authentication. I guess my real question is how is this | > implemented in http? How does Passport use it to lock an identity to | > one session on a browser somewhere? | | Got a URL? I am slowly working on my Kerberos knowledge these days. | | I would venture that it is just like any other kerberized app except that | it somehow supports the non-persistent http connection. It might use the | tickets to reauthenticate with each new GET or it might put an expiration | time on a session. One would be more secure. The latter would use less | overhead. I don't have any specific URL for the info. I've just gleaned the info from various articles I've read. If it is so critical that a browser session be bound to a certain Passport identity for security reasons, it seems to be something more than cookies would be called for. Unless cookies are more flexible and secure than I realize. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 7:55: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D6837B416 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([62.253.144.106]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20011208155500.MPEW29646.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com>; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:55:00 +0000 Received: from boog.goatsucker.org (boog.goatsucker.org [192.168.1.3]) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fB8Fsvn63631; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:54:57 GMT (envelope-from scott@boog.goatsucker.org) Received: (from scott@localhost) by boog.goatsucker.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA02945; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:54:25 GMT (envelope-from scott) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:54:24 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011208155424.D280@localhost> References: <00de01c17fa1$06539e10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <015f01c17fae$74ebc4d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01c101c17fb8$db2cc960$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208074954.GD29408@hades.hell.gr> <020b01c17fbf$e5d44760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <026b01c17fcc$af2c3350$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <026b01c17fcc$af2c3350$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 10:42:41AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 10:42:41AM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Brad writes: > > > Because they've got something that is better? > > So Apple has something better than UNIX for the desktop? What about > Microsoft? Repeat after me: "X is not UNIX. X is not UNIX. X is not UNIX" You can run a UNIX system without X, as you well know. You can run X on top of things other than UNIX (Windows, for example). You can run a UNIX system with a GUI environment other than X. Apple have produced such a beast, which they clearly believe to be better than X. You'd have to ask them why they think that. -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 8: 5:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47BC637B419 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:05:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB8G4nx20697; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 17:04:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <03df01c18002$11aee8d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Scott Mitchell" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <00d901c17fa0$9d81f800$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <013e01c17fad$059cb3b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208154358.C280@localhost> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 17:04:50 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Scott writes: > Indeed, where they will invariably purchase > a machine running Windows, because that's all > that the store sells, because that's all that > most manufacturers produce. All the stores I know of sell at least Windows and the Mac, and most sell Linux as well, although only the first two of these are usually available preinstalled. > I wonder why that might be? It isn't. > Surely nothing to do with the licencing > practices of a certain monopolist company? Correct. Apple has no control over Windows licensing, and vice versa, and Linux is free to anyone. > I doubt that most of these customers are asked > about their requirements much beyond 'how much > are you willing spend', nor are they told that > any alternatives to Windows might exist. Nor does it matter, since the type of operating system they use is no more important to them than the technology of the washing machine they buy. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 8: 7: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout01.sul.t-online.de (mailout01.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0622637B419 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:07:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from fwd00.sul.t-online.de by mailout01.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 16Ck0A-0004i0-01; Sat, 08 Dec 2001 17:06:58 +0100 Received: from pc5.abc (520067998749-0001@[217.233.114.228]) by fmrl00.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 16Ck01-2DqS2aC; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 17:06:49 +0100 Received: (from nicolas@localhost) by pc5.abc (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB8G6mC15790 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 17:06:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from list@rachinsky.de) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 17:06:47 +0100 From: Nicolas Rachinsky To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011208160647.GA13893@pc5.abc> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01e401c17fbe$0f0ae2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <01e401c17fbe$0f0ae2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i X-Powered-by: FreeBSD X-Homepage: http://www.rachinsky.de X-PGP-Keyid: C11ABC0E X-PGP-Fingerprint: 19DB 8392 8FE0 814A 7362 EEBD A53B 526A C11A BC0E X-PGP-Key: http://www.rachinsky.de/nicolas/nicolas_rachinsky.asc X-Sender: 520067998749-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 08:57:00AM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > I've given a hypothetical situation, and I expect a hypothetical answer. In your hypothetical situation, I would answer "take xyz, the hypothetical optimal desktop OS", which is an completely valid answer in this hypothetical world. Nicolas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 8: 7:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88AC37B422 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:07:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB8G6Cx20705; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 17:06:13 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <03ec01c18002$431ba660$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Scott Mitchell" Cc: "Giorgos Keramidas" , "Brad Knowles" , References: <00de01c17fa1$06539e10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <015f01c17fae$74ebc4d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01c101c17fb8$db2cc960$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208074954.GD29408@hades.hell.gr> <020b01c17fbf$e5d44760$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <026b01c17fcc$af2c3350$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208155424.D280@localhost> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 17:06:13 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Scott writes: > Repeat after me: "X is not UNIX. X is not UNIX. > X is not UNIX" Is that anything like: "Mac is not UNIX. Mac is not UNIX. Mac is not UNIX"? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 8:42: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (mta07-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6DE937B426 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:41:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([62.253.144.167]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20011208164153.EUCZ10846.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com>; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:41:53 +0000 Received: from boog.goatsucker.org (boog.goatsucker.org [192.168.1.3]) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fB8Gfln63802; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:41:47 GMT (envelope-from scott@boog.goatsucker.org) Received: (from scott@localhost) by boog.goatsucker.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA03565; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:41:14 GMT (envelope-from scott) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:41:14 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brad Knowles Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20011208164114.F280@localhost> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <03df01c18002$11aee8d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <03df01c18002$11aee8d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 04:16:50PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 04:16:50PM +0000, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Scott writes: > > > Indeed, where they will invariably purchase > > a machine running Windows, because that's all > > that the store sells, because that's all that > > most manufacturers produce. > > All the stores I know of sell at least Windows and the Mac, and most sell > Linux as well, although only the first two of these are usually available > preinstalled. You're lucky, then. That hasn't been my experience, but then I do try to avoid going into computer stores if I can avoid them. > > I wonder why that might be? > > It isn't. Oh? Most manufacturers of consumer-grade desktop PCs *will* sell me a machine preinstalled with something other then Windows, and without any part of the price going to Microsoft? I'm well aware that some companies will do this, but some is not most, as you pointed out previously. > > Surely nothing to do with the licencing > > practices of a certain monopolist company? > > Correct. Apple has no control over Windows licensing, and vice versa, and > Linux is free to anyone. > > > I doubt that most of these customers are asked > > about their requirements much beyond 'how much > > are you willing spend', nor are they told that > > any alternatives to Windows might exist. > > Nor does it matter, since the type of operating system they use is no more > important to them than the technology of the washing machine they buy. How do you know it's not important to them? You didn't ask. -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 8:42:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (mta07-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1687137B419 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:42:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([62.253.144.167]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20011208164223.EUHU10846.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com>; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:42:23 +0000 Received: from boog.goatsucker.org (boog.goatsucker.org [192.168.1.3]) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fB8GgIn63807; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:42:18 GMT (envelope-from scott@boog.goatsucker.org) Received: (from scott@localhost) by boog.goatsucker.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA03579; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:41:47 GMT (envelope-from scott) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:41:47 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20011208164146.G280@localhost> References: <00de01c17fa1$06539e10$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <015f01c17fae$74ebc4d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <03ec01c18002$431ba660$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <03ec01c18002$431ba660$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 04:16:54PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 04:16:54PM +0000, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Scott writes: > > > Repeat after me: "X is not UNIX. X is not UNIX. > > X is not UNIX" > > Is that anything like: "Mac is not UNIX. Mac is not UNIX. Mac is not > UNIX"? No. -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 8:59: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A4CF37B439 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:58:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB8GwVx20824; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 17:58:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <03fb01c18009$92391500$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Scott Mitchell" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , , "Brad Knowles" References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <03df01c18002$11aee8d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011208164114.F280@localhost> Subject: Re: your mail Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 17:58:32 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Scott writes: > You're lucky, then. That hasn't been my experience, > but then I do try to avoid going into computer > stores if I can avoid them. I guess the latter explains the former, then, doesn't it? But it also calls into question your original assertion; how do you know what is sold in the stores if you avoid them? > Most manufacturers of consumer-grade desktop > PCs *will* sell me a machine preinstalled with > something other then Windows, and without any > part of the price going to Microsoft? I don't know--I've never asked. I just erase whatever is on the machine and install what I want. In fact, I do that even when the preinstalled OS is the one I want. > I'm well aware that some companies will do this, > but some is not most, as you pointed out previously. Most people, like me, never ask. > How do you know it's not important to them? > You didn't ask. But I _do_ ask, and they have simply never thought of it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 13:29: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6BEB437B405 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 13:29:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 45235 invoked by uid 100); 8 Dec 2001 21:28:58 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15378.34330.534792.537249@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:28:58 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: , Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <025d01c17fcc$4c8783d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01e401c17fbe$0f0ae2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <025d01c17fcc$4c8783d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > I can also make general statements about fruits that remain valid even > though there may be specific exceptions. In logic, such a statement is called a "false generalization". Any proof that attempts to use it is flawed. In particular, trying to apply the false generalization to a specific example is a major blunder, unless you can show that the exceptions don't apply to that example. By disallowing further information in your hypothetical situation, you've also made it impossible to discover whether or not this example is an exception to the false generalization. That makes all decisions equally valid. So Terry's suggestion of an etch-a-sketch is as correct as my suggestion of a Proptronics box (17" monitor, deskside cpu, keyboard and laser printer for < $100!) is as correct as the solution you desire. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 13:33:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5112B37B416 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 13:33:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB8LXLx21614; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 22:33:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <048101c1802f$f5ef6650$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr><009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com><016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com><01e401c17fbe$0f0ae2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><025d01c17fcc$4c8783d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15378.34330.534792.537249@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 22:33:14 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > In logic, such a statement is called a "false > generalization". Any proof that attempts to use > it is flawed. Unless the proof itself is a generalization. If dogs generally have four legs and creatures called Spot are generally dogs, then creatures called Spot generally have four legs. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 14:25:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AEF5537B41B for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 14:25:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 46304 invoked by uid 100); 8 Dec 2001 22:25:12 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15378.37704.631062.599125@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:25:12 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <048101c1802f$f5ef6650$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01e401c17fbe$0f0ae2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <025d01c17fcc$4c8783d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15378.34330.534792.537249@guru.mired.org> <048101c1802f$f5ef6650$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > In logic, such a statement is called a "false > > generalization". Any proof that attempts to use > > it is flawed. > Unless the proof itself is a generalization. No, because you don't know how the execptions are going to behave in the proof. Unless you actually examine the exceptions for each false generalization used, you don't know that the resulting generalization will hold. For example, if felines species are generally not domesticated, and animals named "kitty" are generally feline, then animals named "kitty" are generally not domesticated. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 14:30: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AF2B37B41D for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 14:30:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB8MTpx21759; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 23:29:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <049f01c18037$db7ca460$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr><009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com><016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com><01e401c17fbe$0f0ae2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><025d01c17fcc$4c8783d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15378.34330.534792.537249@guru.mired.org><048101c1802f$f5ef6650$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15378.37704.631062.599125@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 23:29:51 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > No, because you don't know how the execptions > are going to behave in the proof. By definition, a generalization disregards exceptions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 14:32:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9332A37B416 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 14:32:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 46572 invoked by uid 100); 8 Dec 2001 22:32:20 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15378.38132.694338.893021@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:32:20 -0600 To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <049f01c18037$db7ca460$0a00000a@atkielski.com> References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> <000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com> <3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr> <005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org> <006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr> <009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <01e401c17fbe$0f0ae2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <025d01c17fcc$4c8783d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15378.34330.534792.537249@guru.mired.org> <048101c1802f$f5ef6650$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15378.37704.631062.599125@guru.mired.org> <049f01c18037$db7ca460$0a00000a@atkielski.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski types: > Mike writes: > > No, because you don't know how the execptions > > are going to behave in the proof. > By definition, a generalization disregards exceptions. Which is why "proofs" that use them are flawed. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 14:33:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D94F37B405 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 14:33:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fB8MXoA54149; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 23:33:50 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <04ae01c18038$6ae80900$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr><009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com><016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com><01e401c17fbe$0f0ae2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><025d01c17fcc$4c8783d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15378.34330.534792.537249@guru.mired.org><048101c1802f$f5ef6650$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15378.37704.631062.599125@guru.mired.org><049f01c18037$db7ca460$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15378.38132.694338.893021@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 23:33:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike writes: > Which is why "proofs" that use them are flawed. Not if the proof is a generalization. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 15: 3:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9190C37B416 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:03:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0303.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.48] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16CqUo-00076d-00; Sat, 08 Dec 2001 15:03:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3C129C2E.895D248A@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 15:03:10 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. References: <0112071641320B.01380@stinky.akitanet.co.uk><000b01c17f42$c23ab140$0a0 0000a@atkielski.com><3C110351.4748B559@duth.gr><005001c17f6c$e60c0ef0$ 0a00000a@atkielski.com><15377.17350.796336.801464@guru.mired.org><006901c17f70$19a2f820$0a00000a@atkielski.com><3C11560B.A035DEF3@duth.gr><009401c17f9c$5bad3bf0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><010601c17fab$1cd2b270$0a00000a@atkielski.com><016f01c17fb4$b3c1fc00$0a00000a@atkielski.com><01e401c17fbe$0f0ae2d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><025d01c17fcc$4c8783d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15378.34330.534792.537249@guru.mired.org><048101c1802f$f5ef6650$0a00000a@atkielski.com><15378.37704.631062.599125@guru.mired.org><049f01c18037$db7ca460$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15378.38132.694338.893021@guru.mired.org> <04ae01c18038$6ae80900$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Mike writes: > > Which is why "proofs" that use them are flawed. > > Not if the proof is a generalization. In general, would that make them bald-ass statements instead of proofs? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 15:49: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE68E37B405 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id fB8NmpB09836; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 18:48:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA15746; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 18:48:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15742; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 18:48:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 18:48:50 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Brad Knowles , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <015f01c17fae$74ebc4d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 8 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Pull up a shell window. > > How do you "pull up a shell window" if you have exited the GUI? Why are you bothering to exit the GUI? > > X is not necessarily a "standard", certainly not one that you are > > required to implement. > > Really? So much for arguments in favor of UNIX based on X, eh? > > It's interesting how positions shift. Not really. This in fact furthers the argument. A lot of applications are too difficult to implement in X because of the way X is designed. So you have alternative windowing interfaces. As I said before, you are never locked into anything with Unix. Frankly, there is no reason you have to use Windows on top of DOS. Remember DesqView? OS/2? DOSSHELL? Or any of a hundred other systems? > I'd expect that any UNIX system used as a server would not have a GUI, as it > is just a waste of resources and a security and stability risk. It may be a waste of resources, but it is neither a security or stability risk. > > What's running currently? I dunno, lemme pull up > > a shell window and see: > > Lots of weird stuff. Weird stuff makes me nervous. Ever look at TaskManager under 2000? Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 15:54:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 402E737B405 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id fB8NsZB09960; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 18:54:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA16063; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 18:54:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16059; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 18:54:35 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 18:54:35 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Brad Knowles , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: <01c101c17fb8$db2cc960$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 8 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > It only takes one program. On MS-DOS, all you had to do was type "win." > > Are you sure? If I remove all the unusual stuff, for example, will the > Apple GUI still operate? Take out progman.exe and will 3.1 still work? Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 16: 4:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39DAA37B419; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:04:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id fB9049B10126; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 19:04:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA16629; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 19:04:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA16625; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 19:04:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 19:04:08 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard To: Jamie Oulman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jim@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD E'Zine In-Reply-To: <20011207211841.A78270@techsquare.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Jamie Oulman wrote: > have you tried sending Jim Mock (the maintainer) email? > jim@freebsd.org > > im sure he would know more than this list. Actually, that did not occur to me. But I am dumb. :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 17:22:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B1B937B417 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 17:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB91Lpx22188; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 02:21:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <04da01c1804f$e21bf7e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "James Howard" Cc: "Brad Knowles" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , References: Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 02:21:51 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James writes: > Why are you bothering to exit the GUI? I originally asked if you could do without the GUI and just use a command-line interface, and you implied that this was possible. However, "pulling up a window" requires the existence of the GUI, so that's not the same as what I asked for. > A lot of applications are too difficult to > implement in X because of the way X is designed. > So you have alternative windowing interfaces. Such as Microsoft Windows? > It may be a waste of resources, but it is > neither a security or stability risk. I can't run at secure_level=3 on a system that is running an X server. This implies, by extension, that the X server does things that can potentially destabilize the system (otherwise it wouldn't need to bypass security). And all but one of the crashes and other problems I've had with FreeBSD have occurred while an X server was running on the host. > Ever look at TaskManager under 2000? Not on 2000, but on NT, and that is already scary enough. There are lots of mysterious services running, and if you try to stop any of them, things start to fail in an apparently random way, and if you ask Microsoft about them, nobody knows what they are for. And there's no source, so you can't investigate anything yourself. I would not want to be stuck in that same rut on UNIX. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 8 17:23:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6C2637B417 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 17:23:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (contactdish.atkielski.com [10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fB91N6x22202; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 02:23:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <04df01c18050$0ec64b60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "James Howard" Cc: "Brad Knowles" , "Konstantinos Konstantinidis" , References: Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 02:23:06 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James writes: > Take out progman.exe and will 3.1 still work? Yes. It will continue to run without PROGMAN.EXE, and in fact some specialized implementations replace PROGMAN.EXE with some other program, in order to prevent the user from fooling around. This is even more true of later versions of Windows. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
 
 
 

KEY FEATURES

 

  • Unrisked future net r= evenue of $2.42 Billion from Utah properties alone

  • $14.80 / share price= target forecast by Canaccord Capital

  • Important strategic partnerships with Phillips Petroleum, Halliburton Co. = and Burlington Resources

  • Named one of Colorad= o's 100 Fastest Growing Companies by Denver Business Journal

  • Strong management te= am led by an established team of oil & gas leaders

  Leading Petroleum Engin= eering firm reports GASCO ENERGY=FFFFFF92s unrisked future net = revenues of $2.4 billion from Utah wells alone. Analyst forecasts $14.80/share price target!

Gasco Energy = Inc. is an oil & gas company whose natural gas properties could poten= tially begin producing in the billion-dollar range, but is still trad= ing under $3 per share!

Recently, Gasco Energy=FFFFFF92s (OTCBB:= GASE) properties and future revenues in Utah were independently evaluated and estimated by Netherland, Sewell & Associates (NSAI) =FFFFF= F96 a 40-year-old international petroleum consulting firm. NSAI (www.netherlandsewell.com) has worked with = hundreds of top financial institutions from Bank of America to Credit S= uisse as well as major oil and gas companies from Exxon to Shell.

The report st= ates that the estimated unrisked future net revenue on GASE=FFFFFF92s in= terest will most likely produce $2.42 BILLION!! Please note that the repor= t discusses NET revenues, which are calculated by deducting stat= e production and ad valorem taxes, operating expenses and ALL fu= ture capital costs from the gross revenues. While these are net rev= enues, as opposed to net income, this can mean great news for GASE=FF= FFFF92s existing and future shareholders!

In evaluating= probabilities of occurrence, NSAI=FFFFFF92s report states =FFF= FFF93there is very little risk of not encountering gas in this basin-centered gas= accumulation=FFFFFF94. In fact according to NSAI, the property= =FFFFFF92s most likely present worth is $242 million discounted at 10% based on avera= ge NYMEX prices for the period 09/00 to 08/02. Wellhead prices us= ed in the report are $3.56 per MMBtu, escalated 3% per year to a max= imum of $4.15 per MMBtu.

Foremost amon= g GASE=FFFFFF92s strategic partnerships is GASE=FFFFFF92s agreement with Philli= ps Petroleum (NYSE:P). GASE and Phillips have been working to maximize shareholder value on the Utah properties. GASE has also teamed= with Halliburton Co. (NYSE:HAL) to potentially drill and complete u= p to 10 wells within the same area.

IN ADDITION t= o the interest in Utah properties, GASE also recently reported that = it has teamed up with Burlington Resources (NYSE: BR) - one of the wo= rld's largest independent oil and gas companies - to explore and dev= elop a series of natural gas plays in Wyoming. This significantly enl= arges GASE=FFFFFF92s land mass, which may further increase the compa= ny=FFFFFF92s net present worth!!

According to = the U. S. Geological Survey, the Greater Green River Basin has produced = more than 7.3 trillion cubic feet of natural gas and 849 million ba= rrels of oil, making it one of the country's truly significant oil a= nd gas fields. Burlington Resources is the perfect partner to help de= velop the many highly fractured, tight-gas-sands prospects the compa= nies expect to find there.

OPPORTUNITY:
Based on GASE=FFFFFF92s recove= rable resources, property=FFFFFF92s present worth and industry partnerships Lon= don based Canaccord Capital recently issued an Investment report estimat= ing the value of Gasco=FFFFFF92s licenses to be $740 Million, or $= 14.80 per share.

Despite all t= he recent developments, the company=FFFFFF92s stock is still trading bel= ow $3. Many consider this to be ridiculously low, considering that NSAI estimates future net revenues of up to $2.4 billion and unrisk= ed present worth at $242 million. With its high probability Utah = stake AND its Wyoming partnership with Burlington, GASE is now diver= sified AND showing huge growth potential!

BILLION DO= LLAR QUESTION:
How quickly will GASE=FFFFFF92s stock price s= tart to reflect its real value? As the company is still trading on the= OTCBB, maybe it hasn=FFFFFF92t been able to attract institutio= nal investors who price stocks based on their real value. When they learn ab= out the recent developments, GASE=FFFFFF92s valuation could potent= ially change overnight!

URGENT!
With an application for listing pending and the type of assets GASE possesses, it may be only a matter of time before the company = jumps to Amex. That would open a lot of doors for GASE and potential= ly explode the demand for GASE stock and lead to a much higher valuation! What will GASE be trading at by then?

Click Here to read the NSAI Report

Click Here to read the Canaccord Report

Contact Us=
One of our Corporate Relations Representatives would be happy to a= nswer any questions you may have. Please call us at 1-800-645-9254, = or visit the company's website at www.gascoenergy.com.

<= /TBODY>
3D"Click
GASE : OTCBB
52 Week High: $4.063
52 Week Low: $0.031
Shares Outstanding: 27.25 MILLION

Investment News Alert  Disclaimer: Please be aware that SS is a news service and NOT an investment advisory servi= ce; it is advised that you consult with a licensed financial advisor before= making any investment decisions. This information comprises a paid advertising supplement for which SS was compensated. In the case of = Gasco Energy Inc., SS will be compensated $22,000 by a third party. This publication does not provide an analysis of a company's financial po= sition and the information herein should NOT be construed as an offer to bu= y or sell securities. The information herein is taken from sources though= t to be accurate, but there is no guarantee. All due diligence should be = done by the reader or their financial advisor. Investing in securities is= speculative and carries risk. Past performance does not guarantee fu= ture results.