From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 1:49:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5FB337B419 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 01:49:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id D857B3E92; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 04:50:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92B6BAA6; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 04:50:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 04:50:37 -0500 (EST) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: David Greenman Cc: Anthony Atkielski , Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? In-Reply-To: <20011215220653.D86349@nexus.root.com> Message-ID: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 15 Dec 2001, David Greenman wrote: >>Why does a person's nationality or ethnicity matter? > > It doesn't, and the moment that it starts to matter we have a problem. As >already pointed out by Terry, we do in fact have Indian and Arab developers, >some of which I've had the pleasure of becoming friends with. A person's >nationality or ethnicity has never been a criteria for participation in >FreeBSD development (or anything else except skill, competence, and ability >to get along with others). To me this is one of the more interesting things about open source software development in general. The ethnic diversity is amazing. I understand the context in which Greg asked the question. I know he didn't mean to imply that it mattered as such, but it is academically interesting. For instance it might be cool to see a world map with dots representing the homes of the committers and those on the contributions list in the handbook. It would be an interesting exercise in seeing just show diverse and enlightened a community a project of this size supports. I know over the years I've been impressed at some of the top level domains I see regularly communicating over the FreeBSD mailing lists. Brandon D. Valentine -- "Iam mens praetrepidans avet vagari." - G. Valerius Catullus, Carmina, XLVI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 2: 0:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.102.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C3937B417 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:00:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.11.6/8.9.3) id fBGA0Z058603; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:00:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:00:35 -0800 From: Matthew Hunt To: "Brandon D. Valentine" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? Message-ID: <20011216020035.A58571@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <20011215220653.D86349@nexus.root.com> <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net>; from bandix@looksharp.net on Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 04:50:37AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 04:50:37AM -0500, Brandon D. Valentine wrote: > interesting. For instance it might be cool to see a world map with dots > representing the homes of the committers and those on the contributions > list in the handbook. It would be an interesting exercise in seeing See /usr/ports/astro/xearth/files/freebsd.committers.markers. Naturally, it only includes committers who have chosen to add themselves to the file. -- Matthew Hunt * UNIX is a lever for the http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * intellect. -J.R. Mashey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 5:26:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA8E37B405 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 05:26:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBGDPjR12328; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 14:25:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <004401c18635$2bd802d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Brandon D. Valentine" , "David Greenman" Cc: "Greg Lehey" , "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 14:25:45 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brandon writes: > To me this is one of the more interesting things > about open source software development in general. > The ethnic diversity is amazing. Given that the planet itself is just as diverse ethnically, why would diversity among developers be amazing? > It would be an interesting exercise in seeing > just show diverse and enlightened a community > a project of this size supports. Diversity and enlightenment are not necessarily correlated. > I know over the years I've been impressed at some > of the top level domains I see regularly communicating > over the FreeBSD mailing lists. Over a single week, my little Web site receives visitors from over 60 countries. Given that, I'd expect a mailing list like this to cover every country in the world with an Internet connection, every day. In fact, the nature of the Internet is such that I'd expect any public resource to receive visitors from just about every country in the world over a fairly short period. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 5:51:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A47D37B417 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 05:51:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0045.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.45] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16FbhC-0004TQ-00; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 05:51:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1CA6D2.1AC0F625@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 05:51:14 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Brandon D. Valentine" Cc: David Greenman , Anthony Atkielski , Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Brandon D. Valentine" wrote: > I know over the years I've been impressed at some of the top > level domains I see regularly communicating over the FreeBSD mailing > lists. Actually, this would be a much easier thing to do; use the mailing list archives to plot overall message density over time by top level domain. A lot of them would fall into .com and .net, etc., which were supposed to be U.S.-only, and started being taken by outside the U.S. because of the browser auto-completion defaults adding a ".com" suffix and "www." prefix, if the initial lookup(s) failed. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 6: 8:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A87537B41A for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 06:08:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0045.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.45] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Fby9-0006G2-00; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 06:08:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1CAAEC.636A8975@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 06:08:44 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: "Brandon D. Valentine" , David Greenman , Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <004401c18635$2bd802d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Over a single week, my little Web site receives visitors from over 60 > countries. Given that, I'd expect a mailing list like this to cover every > country in the world with an Internet connection, every day. In fact, the > nature of the Internet is such that I'd expect any public resource to > receive visitors from just about every country in the world over a fairly > short period. This is probably unrepresentitive, since you appear to go out of your way to create controversy to get just such a reaction. One thing I find incredibly amusing is that your site uses IE specific tags, and so it won't render correctly on most browsers, so you are in fact self-limiting you prospective audience pretty much to people outside the Open Source community entirely -- apropos of the places you post your controversy induction/selp promotion material. 8^) -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 6:38:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1945C37B41E for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 06:38:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBGEbnR12469; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 15:37:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <005b01c1863f$3fa9aa70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Brandon D. Valentine" , "David Greenman" , "Greg Lehey" , "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <004401c18635$2bd802d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1CAAEC.636A8975@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 15:37:49 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > This is probably unrepresentitive, since you > appear to go out of your way to create controversy > to get just such a reaction. There is nothing controversial about my Web site, and even if there were, nobody would know that until _after_ visiting it, so it would not drive traffic to the site. > One thing I find incredibly amusing is that > your site uses IE specific tags, and so it won't > render correctly on most browsers ... Really? Which ones? Most of the pages validate as correct HTML, at least according to the W3C (I periodically check them). Additionally, they _do_ render correctly on most browsers. I test with MSIE 5.x, Opera 5.x, Netscape 6.x, Netscape 4.x, WebTV, and Lynx, and all except Netscape 4.x render pages correctly. And I don't care about Netscape 4.x, because it represents less than 2% of visitors, and it contains so many rendering bugs that you must usually choose between coding HTML to render correctly in Netscape 4.x, or coding HTML to validate properly and render correctly in every other browser, and I normally choose the latter. > ... so you are in fact self-limiting you prospective > audience pretty much to people outside the Open Source > community entirely -- apropos of the places you > post your controversy induction/selp promotion > material. See above. My audience isn't limited in any way except for users of Netscape 4.x, who are likely to see many of the more recent pages incorrectly rendered (as well as two of the frames), but they are a tiny minority and I cannot afford to accommodate them. I don't use any ActiveX at all (except for PDF files), and very little scripting. The site can even be navigated successfully using text-only browsers, browsers that don't support frames, and browsers without Javascript support. CSS support is necessary for non-text browsers, but just about every browser has that. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 7:30:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3042637B419 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 07:30:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 16FdFG-0001N0-00; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 16:30:30 +0100 Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBGExxG66985 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 15:59:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mailnull) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 14:59:58 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <9victe$2055$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C1CA6D2.1AC0F625@mindspring.com> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > A lot of them would fall into .com and .net, etc., which > were supposed to be U.S.-only, ... and supposed to be phased out in favor of .us ... -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 7:50:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D2A837B417 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 07:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0045.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.45] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16FdY7-0003jJ-00; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 07:50:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1CC27C.FAF0A04F@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 07:49:16 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: "Brandon D. Valentine" , David Greenman , Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <004401c18635$2bd802d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1CAAEC.636A8975@mindspring.com> <005b01c1863f$3fa9aa70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > This is probably unrepresentitive, since you > > appear to go out of your way to create controversy > > to get just such a reaction. > > There is nothing controversial about my Web site, and even if there were, > nobody would know that until _after_ visiting it, so it would not drive > traffic to the site. You create controversy onmailing lists for OS's whose default browsers are going to be unable to render your pages in order to get hits. For example, your posts to this mailing list. > > One thing I find incredibly amusing is that > > your site uses IE specific tags, and so it won't > > render correctly on most browsers ... > > Really? Which ones? Most of the pages validate as correct HTML, at least > according to the W3C (I periodically check them). > > Additionally, they _do_ render correctly on most browsers. I test with MSIE > 5.x, Opera 5.x, Netscape 6.x, Netscape 4.x, WebTV, and Lynx, and all except > Netscape 4.x render pages correctly. And I don't care about Netscape 4.x, > because it represents less than 2% of visitors, and it contains so many > rendering bugs that you must usually choose between coding HTML to render > correctly in Netscape 4.x, or coding HTML to validate properly and render > correctly in every other browser, and I normally choose the latter. Yet, you post things designed to drive controversy, and therefore (either as an intended effect, or a side effect) drive traffic to your web site. And the lists on which you are posting are peopled by people whose commercial release browser is Netscape 4.x. Also, pretty clearly: you are unlikely to get repeat "vistors" from Netscape 4.x users, so that will artificially deflate the number of such vistors you record (self fulfilling prophecy). I suggest adding Netscape 4.x, Lynx, and Konquerer to your broswer test list. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 9: 1:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7DD037B41A for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 09:01:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBGGwnR12822; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 17:58:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <007601c18652$f4d62640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Brandon D. Valentine" , "David Greenman" , "Greg Lehey" , "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <004401c18635$2bd802d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1CAAEC.636A8975@mindspring.com> <005b01c1863f$3fa9aa70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1CC27C.FAF0A04F@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 17:58:49 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > You create controversy on mailing lists > for OS's whose default browsers are going > to be unable to render your pages in order > to get hits. I have no need to try to get hits for my site; it is getting plenty of visitors as it is, and it only costs me money. Additionally, trying to drum up hits by posting to obscure OS mailing lists would be exceedingly bizarre and counterproductive, as there are much better venues for trying to promote a Web site. BTW, you haven't answered my question: Which "IE specific tags" am I using? The pages validate as correct, standard HTML, which would necessarily exclude any IE-specific code. > Yet, you post things designed to drive controversy ... I compel people to defend unsubstantiated opinions. People who cannot substantiate their opinions tend to think of that as "driving controversy" or "being difficult" or think of it in any one of a dozen other negative ways, but that is just rationalization. > ... and therefore (either as an intended effect, > or a side effect) drive traffic to your web site. If my posts here (or anywhere) have generated traffic to my site, I haven't seen it. The overwhelming majority of visitors to my site arrive via search engines; visitors who enter the site directly (by typing the URL) are statistically insignificant. > And the lists on which you are posting are peopled > by people whose commercial release browser is > Netscape 4.x. That is their problem, not mine. Netscape has a newer browser that contains far fewer bugs (although it is still much worse than MSIE or Opera). > Also, pretty clearly: you are unlikely to get > repeat "vistors" from Netscape 4.x users, so that > will artificially deflate the number of such vistors > you record (self fulfilling prophecy). Most visitors are first-time visitors. On extremely rare occasions, someone still saddled with Netscape 4.x has asked why my pages display as a jumble on her screen, and I've suggested that she upgrade to Netscape 6.x (if she absolutely must stick with Netscape) or better still, to MSIE or possibly Opera. > I suggest adding Netscape 4.x, Lynx, and Konquerer > to your broswer test list. I dropped Netscape 4.x in 2000, because it is too difficult to accommodate its endless bugs, and I don't intend to change that policy. I already test with Lynx, as I've previously explained. Konquerer would require running an X server on my FreeBSD machine, which would require modifying the secure_level to a less secure setting and various other things that I really don't plan to bother with (the machine is a server, not a desktop). Less than 0.5% of visitors to my site are running any version of UNIX, so they don't matter. I use Lynx as my browser when I need to browse from the FreeBSD system. Nowadays, I try to get pages to render with a browser that implements the W3C standard. If there are browsers out there that cannot render standard, conformant HTML correctly, that's not my problem. MSIE is compliant, as is Opera, and even Netscape 6, to a large extent. Authors of other browsers need to fix them to make them compliant. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 10:15:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB81D37B41B for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 10:15:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.244.105.187.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.244.105.187] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16FfoZ-0002Ez-00; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 10:15:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1CE49E.39FBBED2@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 10:14:54 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: "Brandon D. Valentine" , David Greenman , Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <004401c18635$2bd802d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1CAAEC.636A8975@mindspring.com> <005b01c1863f$3fa9aa70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1CC27C.FAF0A04F@mindspring.com> <007601c18652$f4d62640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > BTW, you haven't answered my question: Which "IE specific tags" am I using? > The pages validate as correct, standard HTML, which would necessarily > exclude any IE-specific code. Unbalanced tags (e.g open table element with no close tag). Automatic tag balancing being implied by the browser for all tags is an SGML feature; the HTML tag implied balancing is not true for all tags, according to the specification, amking the behaviour "undefined", rather thna "standard". > > Yet, you post things designed to drive controversy ... > > I compel people to defend unsubstantiated opinions. People who cannot > substantiate their opinions tend to think of that as "driving controversy" > or "being difficult" or think of it in any one of a dozen other negative > ways, but that is just rationalization. Luckily, the vast majority of my opinions are substantiated, and in the rare cases they are not, I have no problem defending them (usually on the basis of Occam's Razor, and the fact that light bulbs work). > Most visitors are first-time visitors. On extremely rare occasions, someone > still saddled with Netscape 4.x has asked why my pages display as a jumble > on her screen, and I've suggested that she upgrade to Netscape 6.x (if she > absolutely must stick with Netscape) or better still, to MSIE or possibly > Opera. I'd be happy to install IE for FreeBSD, if it weren't for the monopolistic practices which have precluded it from being ported. I would even run it under Linux emulation, if need be. [ ... comments on the marginal utility of UNIX desktops ... ] Which begs the question of why you post to these lists, which are not specifically intended for Windows advocacy... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 10:35: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1668137B416 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 10:34:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBGIWCR12997; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 19:32:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <000401c1865f$fac145f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "Brandon D. Valentine" , "David Greenman" , "Greg Lehey" , "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <004401c18635$2bd802d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1CAAEC.636A8975@mindspring.com> <005b01c1863f$3fa9aa70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1CC27C.FAF0A04F@mindspring.com> <007601c18652$f4d62640$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1CE49E.39FBBED2@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 19:32:11 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > Unbalanced tags (e.g open table element with > no close tag). There shouldn't be any pages on the site with open tables. Can you provide a URL? > Automatic tag balancing being implied by the > browser for all tags is an SGML feature; the > HTML tag implied balancing is not true for all > tags, according to the specification, amking > the behaviour "undefined", rather thna "standard". Most of the pages validate correctly when I test them with the W3C's validator; therefore they are _standard_. > I'd be happy to install IE for FreeBSD, if it > weren't for the monopolistic practices which > have precluded it from being ported. I would > even run it under Linux emulation, if need be. As I've already indicated, that is your problem, not mine. > [ ... comments on the marginal utility of UNIX > desktops ... ] > > Which begs the question of why you post to these > lists, which are not specifically intended for > Windows advocacy... Because I consider UNIX to be useful as a server. I don't see any place for UNIX on the desktop, except as a geek curosity, and so I don't worry about that; but its utility as a server is well established, and that is what interests me. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 11:32:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF74137B41B for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:32:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBGJW8187551; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:32:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 11:32:08 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: UNIX on the Desktop (was: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs?) In-Reply-To: <000401c1865f$fac145f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20011216112759.U16958-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Because I consider UNIX to be useful as a server. I don't see any place for > UNIX on the desktop, except as a geek curosity, and so I don't worry about > that; but its utility as a server is well established, and that is what > interests me. i don't really have a response. i have *several* desktop UNIX workstations, ranging from OpenBSD/sparc to FreeBSD 4.5, and FreeBSD-CURRENT. it's.. enlightening to think that anyone would say that UNIX is not appropriate for the desktop, when it works so well for it - at least, for what i do. i'm curious, why would you say it doesn't work well? no flame intended, i'm just wondering. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 12:11:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B24337B419 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 12:11:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from duth.gr (foo.duth.gr [193.92.210.14]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBGKAuw24015; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:10:56 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3C1CFFCB.56C3FCEB@duth.gr> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:10:51 +0200 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: We've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: UNIX on the Desktop (was: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs?) References: <20011216112759.U16958-100000@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "f.johan.beisser" wrote: [SNIPED] > > i'm curious, why would you say it doesn't work well? > > no flame intended, i'm just wondering. It's because he's a religious fanatic, as Mike Meyer very eloquently put it - check 15377.5471.140216.42087@guru.mired.org Since he has demonstrated beyond doubt that it is an excersise in futility for one to engage in an intelligent discussion with him, at least for this particular topic, may I suggest that we simply... +-------------+ | DO NOT FEED | | THE TROLL | +-------------+ | | | | O o | | | ___\|/_=\| |/=_\|/___ I am convinced that I can have a more intelligent conversation with the brick wall across the street, If I ever feel inclined to. Thanks, --kkonstan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 12:13:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8334837B41B for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 12:13:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBGKDOR13279; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 21:13:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <002f01c1866e$1e4d9510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20011216112759.U16958-100000@localhost> Subject: Re: UNIX on the Desktop (was: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs?) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 21:13:14 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org f.johan writes: > i'm curious, why would you say it doesn't work well? It is a less appropriate choice than Windows or the Mac, for several reasons, including: 1. Windows and the Mac OS were both designed specifically for a windowed, desktop environment; UNIX was not. 2. Windows and the Mac are single-user, dedicated desktop operating systems; UNIX is a multiuser timesharing system. 3. The native user interface of Windows/Mac is a GUI; the native interface of UNIX is a simple text display. THe former is better suited to desktop environments (friendly, attractive, ergonomic); the latter is better suited to servers (inexpensive, efficient, fast). 4. The number of useful desktop applications for Windows and the Mac exceed the number of such applications available for UNIX by several orders of magnitude. 5. Windows/Mac have virtually no security, but considerable flexibility for things like games (the two being inversely correlated); UNIX has much better security, but is less friendly to insecure applications like games. Desktop enviroments favor flexibility over security. 6. Since most of the world is running Windows (or the Mac) on its desktops, compatibility concerns strongly favor this operating system for new installations. 7. Users are more likely to already be familiar with Windows (or the Mac) than with UNIX, even in GUI incarnations of the latter. I'm sure other reasons exist as well, these are just the first ones that come to mind. Many of the reasons that favor Windows and the Mac on the desktop also favor UNIX in the server domain. Assets become liabilities when moving from desktop to server, and vice versa. It isn't really possible to have an operating system that handles both environments optimally, and UNIX shines strongly for servers, whereas Windows shines strongly for desktops. Unfortunately, many recent converts to UNIX (especially the most primitive of UNIX systems, Linux) seem not to consider any type of use of computers important outside the desktop, and so they believe that any suggestion that UNIX might not be the best desktop operating system is some sort of death blow to the OS. Nothing could be further from the truth, of course, as UNIX works very well on servers, and servers are just as important as desktops. UNIX can even be made to run on mainframes, and, while that isn't necessarily a good idea, if one must choose, better to have UNIX on the mainframe than Windows. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 13: 0: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.popsite.net (smtp.popsite.net [216.126.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC3437B419 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 13:00:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobaloney.net (c5T2-131.015.popsite.net [216.126.188.131]) by smtp.popsite.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9283350867 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 14:59:45 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C1D0B65.2EF25180@nobaloney.net> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 13:00:21 -0800 From: Jeff Lasman Organization: nobaloney.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? References: <20011216124818.L62493@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C1C30A8.633D60A3@mindspring.com> <20011216160806.R62493@monorchid.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > Certainly > my intention was not to discriminate; quite the contrary. I would > find it sad if obvious differences can't be discussed. When someone robs the store down the street and the radio station tells me to be on the lookout, I'd like to know the ethnicity of the person I'm looking for, as well as the hair color, if for no other reason than to know I don't have to look at everyone. If you and I were going to meet in a hotel lobby we'd probably ask each other as well; it would be easier if we didn't have to look at every green person who walked in because we knew we were purple and orange respectively. But to write software? To correspond on a list? I really don't think it matters at all. In fact, I think the best form of nondiscrimination is to not keep track at all. All systems that keep track find themselves in danger of becoming pro-something or anti-something rather than becoming equal opportunity. For example, if the local university (UCR, if anyone cares) really wants to just let people in without regard to race, color, origin, etc., why do they even ask? > I can't recall > anybody getting upset, for example, when people asked why there are no > female hackers. Oh, but there are . > there's no > shortage of German hackers on the lists; let me know if you want a > partial list. How would you know if they're German? Can you tell from an email address? I certainly can't. Jeff (who's going to set up his first freeBSD system today or tomorrow) -- Jeff Lasman Linux and Cobalt/Sun/RaQ Consulting nobaloney.net P. O. Box 52672, Riverside, CA 92517 voice: (909) 778-9980 * fax: (702) 548-9484 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 14:54:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10F1D37B417 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 14:54:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id BE370786E4; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:24:22 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:24:22 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Brandon D. Valentine" , David Greenman , Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Top-level domains (was: Why no Indians and Arabs?) Message-ID: <20011217092422.W62493@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C1CA6D2.1AC0F625@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C1CA6D2.1AC0F625@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 16 December 2001 at 5:51:14 -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > "Brandon D. Valentine" wrote: >> I know over the years I've been impressed at some of the top >> level domains I see regularly communicating over the FreeBSD mailing >> lists. > > Actually, this would be a much easier thing to do; use the > mailing list archives to plot overall message density over > time by top level domain. > > A lot of them would fall into .com and .net, etc., which were > supposed to be U.S.-only, The ARPAnet was supposed to be US-only. > and started being taken by outside the U.S. because of the browser > auto-completion defaults adding a ".com" suffix and "www." prefix, > if the initial lookup(s) failed. The use of these TLDs outside the US far predates the Web. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 15:22: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D55A37B405; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 15:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.22] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBGNLr801458; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 00:21:53 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20011214193441.87277.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20011214193441.87277.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:25:42 +0100 To: Hiten Pandya , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, grog@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:34 AM -0800 on 2001/12/14, Hiten Pandya wrote: > For argument's sake; Even though FreeBSD is better > than > AIX (much better), and also free, why do corporates > and > goverment agencies tend to choose IBM and Sun based > products more than FreeBSD. Okay, so go ask IBM to do a complete open-source version of AIX. You'd have about as much success doing that as asking them to release the JFS code under any other kind of license. > (no offense), but if these kind of things are to be > taken religiously (GPL vs. BSD License), than it > would render this whole thread completely illogical, > which i have always tried to prevent. Well, the problem is that you cannot escape the license. Feel free to do whatever you want in terms of something that is not enabled by default. However, keep in mind that if something isn't enabled by default, that will mean that something like 99% of the users will never make use of the software in question -- all "ports" are pretty much in the same boat. Of course, since your "port" will compete with existing software that is included by default (e.g., softupdates) and may or may not conflict with other software that is included by default (dirprefs & dirhash), this would reduce your potential customer base by a few more orders of magnitude. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 15:22:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 358E437B405; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 15:22:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.22] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBGNM7801694; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 00:22:07 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20011215112539.L85108@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011213093555.76629.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> <20011215112539.L85108@monorchid.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:31:48 +0100 To: Greg Lehey , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Cc: Hiten Pandya , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:25 AM +1030 on 2001/12/15, Greg Lehey wrote: > Indeed. One of the reasons I'd like to see a JFS port is to be able > to compare it with the current UFS. I really wouldn't like to bet on > which one came out on top. But so far, we only have theoretical > papers to base our opinions on. I'd like to see that too. However, since it is highly unlikely that we will get IBM to agree to a license change for the software in question, I don't think that we should hold our breath waiting for it. We can work on continued improvements to our existing filesystem technology (e.g., softupdates, dirprefs, dirhash, etc...), and if others can get IBM or SGI to agree to license changes for JFS or XFS, then we can benchmark our improvements against the alternative filesystems. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 15:22:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1C5137B422; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 15:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.22] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBGNM4801632; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 00:22:04 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20011214200410.74625.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20011214200410.74625.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:42:24 +0100 To: Hiten Pandya , "f.johan.beisser" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, grog@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:04 PM -0800 on 2001/12/14, Hiten Pandya wrote: > Lets say that you are right about this, or lets just > say you are, than why would companies like > register.com > use Linux for suppose in their production for their > internet business. Perhaps they have techies who have only ever heard of Linux? Perhaps they're doing it for pure marketing reasons, because Linux has the buzz right now? Perhaps it was mandated for them by management, because they have Linux-on-the-brain? Or maybe they actually have a valid reason -- such as being able to get lots of good support for Linux from their local Universities and colleges, so that when they need to hire experienced low-level people, they have a wide selection of people to choose from? -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 15:22:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3051F37B426; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 15:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.22] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBGNM9801745; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 00:22:09 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20011215122158.A87600@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011215112539.L85108@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011215122158.A87600@monorchid.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:34:19 +0100 To: Greg Lehey , scanner@jurai.net From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Cc: Brad Knowles , Hiten Pandya , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:21 PM +1030 on 2001/12/15, Greg Lehey wrote: >> Yes doing so would be nice. For that exact reason. To see some real >> numbers and how they stack up. However i'm with brad it would be better >> considering the nature of the GPL on JFS, to get co-operation from >> SGI. Maybe they would consider another point of view in licensing their >> XFS to the BSD folks. Then again maybe not. > > I'd bet on them not doing it. They're a lot more likely to do it than IBM. > Feel free to go ahead. But I really don't think that you'll have much > success. Don't get me wrong, I think that XFS has a lot of advantages > too. You're more likely to get SGI to respond positively than IBM. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 15:22:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CEE537B41B; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 15:22:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.22] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBGNM1801587; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 00:22:01 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20011214141902.F69086-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> References: <20011214141902.F69086-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:36:52 +0100 To: "Brandon D. Valentine" , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) Cc: Terry Lambert , , , , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:39 PM -0500 on 2001/12/14, Brandon D. Valentine wrote: > The major advantage people see to a journaling file system is that of > the lack of fsck on boot. This is crucial to large filesystems. But you've got this today with softupdates. Look at the filesystem work that Joe Greco has done for his multi-terabyte scale news servers, which he detailed at SANE 2000 (see ). He's got his file servers down to the point where he can flip the power switch off, flip it back on, and have the servers up and fully operational in less than thirty seconds. Moreover, the news system doesn't see a single user-visible hiccup, because it smoothly fails over to backup servers when the primaries become unavailable. You could probably do the same with AIX, but it would take a lot of work. > Perhaps when Softupdates on FFS gets to the point where snapshots and > background fsck are fully implemented and well tested and maybe even > enabled by default then people will stop asking for a journaling file > system. I don't know very much about JFS, but I do know that the design > of XFS offers some cool features like dynamic inode creation. XFS has a lot of cool features, but I don't see that we necessarily need to implement XFS per se, in order to get the same features. > One would > also think the ability to possibly relink rm'd files by rolling back > journal transactions would be a potentially useful feature on a > filesystem being used on the average user's desk. That only works up to the point where the journal rolls over, and assumes that all data writes as well as all meta-data writes are processed through the log. However, by forcing all data writes as well as meta-data writes through the journal, you increase by many orders of magnitude the amount of information that has to be written by the journal, and you also shorten its useful lifespan by the same amount. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 18:55:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.highperformance.net (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61E7237B417 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 18:55:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by server.highperformance.net (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fBH2tdl45564 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 18:55:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@highperformance.net) X-Authentication-Warning: server.highperformance.net: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 18:55:38 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server.highperformance.net To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? In-Reply-To: <3C1CE49E.39FBBED2@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It seems no one has come close to adressing Greg's question, save the quick and common response that demographics have no bearing on anything. Somehow now we are talking of IE 5.0. I was actually looking forward to someone saying something like, there are few computers in Arab lands. Or perhaps, computers are eyed with suspicion in my home country. It would have been interesting. Something that would expose issues as to, "Why no Indians and Arabs?" Just an observation. Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 19:57:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D4137B644 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 19:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBH3usR14684; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 04:56:55 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <003201c186ae$de1bcd40$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Jason C. Wells" , "FreeBSD Chat" References: Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 04:56:51 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've never seen any evidence of a correlation between ethnicity and the prevalence or acceptance of computers. The prevalence of computer use in any country or region is much more closely tied to socioeconomic development, and acceptance (or rejection) of computers hardly seems to be related to anything at all, except individual personalities. This being so, the ethnicity of FreeBSD developers really doesn't have any bearing on anything. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason C. Wells" To: "FreeBSD Chat" Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 03:55 Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? > It seems no one has come close to adressing Greg's question, save the > quick and common response that demographics have no bearing on > anything. Somehow now we are talking of IE 5.0. > > I was actually looking forward to someone saying something like, there are > few computers in Arab lands. Or perhaps, computers are eyed with suspicion > in my home country. It would have been interesting. Something that would > expose issues as to, "Why no Indians and Arabs?" > > Just an observation. > Jason C. Wells > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 20: 4:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE0637B423 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:04:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5D74A18F1; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 21:04:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE2018F0; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 21:04:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 21:04:11 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hamell To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? In-Reply-To: <20011216124818.L62493@monorchid.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I was recently asked the question in a private Email: why are there no > Arabs in the FreeBSD project? At least, I don't know of any. Also, > I know of only one Indian in the project (Joseph Koshy). We have > plenty of people from other countries. Any ideas why this should be? If you have to identify by race... you're being racist... :) (Who checks "OTHER" on ethinticity and puts "human.") Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 21:22:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8A037B41B; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 21:22:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22596; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:21:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:21:50 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Cc: Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, Poul-Henning Kamp In-Reply-To: <20011216174850.S62493@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <1id71idej9.71i@localhost.localdomain> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:18 AM 12/16/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >/usr/src/sys/gnu. It's there now. > >>From the GPL: > > If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the > Program, and can be reasonably considered independent and separate > works in themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply > to those sections when you distribute them as separate works. If they're part of the kernel, they're not separate works. RMS would have the right to demand, TODAY, that the entire FreeBSD kernel be licensed under the GPL. This is the danger of permitting the camel's nose into the tent. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 22: 4:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE62337B419; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D235B786E4; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:34:27 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:34:27 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Message-ID: <20011217163427.A2885@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011216113458.R87600@monorchid.lemis.com> <200112170550.fBH5oea01099@aztec.santafe.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 16 December 2001 at 22:21:50 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:18 AM 12/16/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> /usr/src/sys/gnu. It's there now. >> >>> From the GPL: >> >> If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the >> Program, and can be reasonably considered independent and separate >> works in themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply >> to those sections when you distribute them as separate works. > > If they're part of the kernel, they're not separate works. RMS would > have the right to demand, TODAY, that the entire FreeBSD kernel be > licensed under the GPL. This is the danger of permitting the camel's > nose into the tent. Well, why don't we ask him? On Sunday, 16 December 2001 at 11:34:58 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > A question: can we legally use GPLd code in the FreeBSD kernel, and > how? > > More specifically, I'm talking about non-core functionality such as > device drivers and (in this case) file systems (specifically IBM's > JFS2, which is released under GPL). I think we can agree that they're > not core functionality because the kernel works perfectly well without > them. As such, I believe that paragraph 2 of the GPL doesn't apply to > the rest of the kernel ("mere aggregation"). There's a lot of FUD in > the FreeBSD community about this, however. I'd like to hear your > views. > > A couple of things that won't happen: > > 1. We won't modify GPL code and then try to stick another license on > it. Any modifications to the drivers or file systems will come > under GPL. > > 2. We won't put FreeBSD under GPL. > > 3. We won't try to find loopholes. Either we do this correctly or > not at all. On Sunday, 16 December 2001 at 22:50:40 -0700, Richard Stallman wrote: > When code is linked together, that is not "mere aggregation"; that is > making one program. If you link some GPL-covered code into the > kernel, the GPL's conditions will apply to the kernel as a whole. > > I don't think that results in any legal difficulty. The FreeBSD > kernel uses the revised BSD license, right? That is compatible with > the GPL. So you can link these things together. The kernel code > released under the revised BSD license will continue to be under the > revised BSD license; it is only the *combination as a whole* that will > be covered by the GPL--if and when the GPL-covered code is included in > it. I interpret this to mean "after linking". It would appear to be the kernel binary which falls under the GPL. About the only obligation of the FreeBSD project would be to make the corresponding source code available. > If someone links a kernel without that GPL-covered code, the GPL > won't apply to that kernel. > > The main consequence, legally, of including some GPL-covered code > would be that you could not *also* link in other code with > GPL-incompatible licenses. > > If you find this outcome acceptable, there's nothing stopping you from > doing it. The distinction between "core" and "non-core" is not > relevant to the GPL; whether it matters to you is up to you. This sounds to me like a technicality. For me, the main thing is that the FreeBSD code remains under the BSD license, and it seems that there's no issue there. I'm sure that you, Brett, are in a better position than I to find any problems with the "solution". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 22:35:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85AE537B416 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:35:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dg@localhost) by root.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id fBH6Qpp92076; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:26:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:26:51 -0800 From: David Greenman To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? Message-ID: <20011216222651.A92038@nexus.root.com> References: <3C1CE49E.39FBBED2@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from jcwells@highperformance.net on Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 06:55:38PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >It seems no one has come close to adressing Greg's question, save the >quick and common response that demographics have no bearing on >anything. Somehow now we are talking of IE 5.0. > >I was actually looking forward to someone saying something like, there are >few computers in Arab lands. Or perhaps, computers are eyed with suspicion >in my home country. It would have been interesting. Something that would >expose issues as to, "Why no Indians and Arabs?" Umm, but the assumption was wrong - there are both Indian and Arab developers working on FreeBSD. His question was based on false assumptions, so I don't know that there is anything to really talk about. :-) -DG David Greenman Co-founder, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org President, TeraSolutions, Inc. - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 23:11:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.jodeit.com (mail.jodeit.com [207.10.131.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E001A37B41D for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:11:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from gdennyj [207.10.131.111] by mail.jodeit.com (SMTPD32-6.06) id A80811E8012A; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 02:00:24 -0500 Message-ID: <005101c186ca$c637b560$6f830acf@gdennyj> From: "Denny Jodeit" To: "FreeBSD Chat" References: <3C1CE49E.39FBBED2@mindspring.com> <20011216222651.A92038@nexus.root.com> Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 02:16:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Umm, but the assumption was wrong - there are both Indian and Arab > developers working on FreeBSD. His question was based on false assumptions, > so I don't know that there is anything to really talk about. :-) > > -DG Exactly. But, I'll take my chance to add my two pennies.. My dad is the son of a German immigrant. He was born in 1935 in New York State. That made him a citizen of the United States. My grandmother was born a month after her family arrived in Wisconsin from Germany in 1899, also making her a United States citizen. My grandfather had immigrated to this country in 1930, as Germany was in uprise. He was naturalized before my father's birth, further locking my father's citizenship. My father tells stories, which I care not to repeat here, of how German kids were treated in school here in the US, during the WWII conflict. My dad was age 5 in 1940, just starting school. His stories made me very glad I grew up in a kinder world, in the late 60's and 70's. I graduated from HS in '79. The world was a fairly happy place. I actually used to ignore questions like this thread originally posed. They weren't worth my time. My dad turns 67 in March, pretty healthy for a man of his age. He smoked for near 50 years and quit over 2 yrs ago. But he's an angry SOB a good part of the time. I've watched the pain my dad has gone thru, and survived, all my life. He's always had self-esteem problems. He's never been able to read well without help. He's always had problems dealing with conflicts in the workplace. I think his peers in school may have done this to him. I really do. But I don't blame them...I blame society. In light of the video recently released, uncovering bin Laden's uncaring ways for even his own followers, the question about Arabs and Indians was a little on the insensitive side. But I also understand the nervousness. It's a Catch22, no doubt. But let's not, for mankind's sake, repeat past mistakes. Arab in descent doesn't mean evil. Muslims do not want the rest of the world dead, how ridiculous. No God of any religion would want people killed in His name. The current world conflict is not about an ethnic group or any religion. It's about stopping terror. No one has the right to kill innocent people and create fear for any reason. Period. It's time for people of the world to talk, to meet, to understand...... and the Internet(with tons of credit to FreeBSD :>), has made that closer to reality. 'Nuff said. Denny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 16 23:18: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD6D37B41B; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:18:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA23460; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 00:17:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 00:17:42 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Cc: Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, Poul-Henning Kamp In-Reply-To: <20011217163427.A2885@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011216113458.R87600@monorchid.lemis.com> <200112170550.fBH5oea01099@aztec.santafe.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:04 PM 12/16/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >> If they're part of the kernel, they're not separate works. RMS would >> have the right to demand, TODAY, that the entire FreeBSD kernel be >> licensed under the GPL. This is the danger of permitting the camel's >> nose into the tent. > >Well, why don't we ask him? Go ahead. He'll wring his hands with glee, seeing that carelessness and apathy have delivered his enemies into his hands. >I interpret this to mean "after linking". It would appear to be the >kernel binary which falls under the GPL. About the only obligation of >the FreeBSD project would be to make the corresponding source code >available. Not true. The FreeBSD Project would be obliged to license the entire kernel -- source and binary -- under the GPL. >This sounds to me like a technicality. For me, the main thing is that >the FreeBSD code remains under the BSD license, and it seems that >there's no issue there. There is a very serious issue. It contains GPLed code and has been distributed. This means that if the GPL is legally enforceable, every version of FreeBSD that has contained that code must be licensed under the GPL. Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 0:27:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0312837B419; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 00:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C8279786E4; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:57:38 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:57:38 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Message-ID: <20011217185738.N14500@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 17 December 2001 at 0:17:42 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:04 PM 12/16/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> If they're part of the kernel, they're not separate works. RMS would >>> have the right to demand, TODAY, that the entire FreeBSD kernel be >>> licensed under the GPL. This is the danger of permitting the camel's >>> nose into the tent. >> >> Well, why don't we ask him? > > Go ahead. He'll wring his hands with glee, seeing that carelessness > and apathy have delivered his enemies into his hands. Where did you see that in his reply? >> I interpret this to mean "after linking". It would appear to be the >> kernel binary which falls under the GPL. About the only obligation of >> the FreeBSD project would be to make the corresponding source code >> available. > > Not true. The FreeBSD Project would be obliged to license the entire > kernel -- source and binary -- under the GPL. That is a complete and utter contradiction of what Stallman said. I see that you carefully removed his words: > The kernel code released under the revised BSD license will continue > to be under the revised BSD license; it is only the *combination as > a whole* that will be covered by the GPL--if and when the > GPL-covered code is included in it. If someone links a kernel > without that GPL-covered code, the GPL won't apply to that kernel. Would you please explain: 1. How you got to your contradictory conclusion above. 2. Why you omitted this statement from the reply. >> This sounds to me like a technicality. For me, the main thing is that >> the FreeBSD code remains under the BSD license, and it seems that >> there's no issue there. > > There is a very serious issue. It contains GPLed code and has been > distributed. This means that if the GPL is legally enforceable, > every version of FreeBSD that has contained that code must be > licensed under the GPL. Brett, you're arguing against facts. How do you want people to take you seriously? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 0:55:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A72337B405 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 00:55:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 22181786E3; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:25:03 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:25:03 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: David Greenman Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Political Correctness on -chat (was: Why no Indians and Arabs?) Message-ID: <20011217192503.P14500@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <3C1CE49E.39FBBED2@mindspring.com> <20011216222651.A92038@nexus.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011216222651.A92038@nexus.root.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 16 December 2001 at 22:26:51 -0800, David Greenman wrote: >> It seems no one has come close to adressing Greg's question, save the >> quick and common response that demographics have no bearing on >> anything. Somehow now we are talking of IE 5.0. >> >> I was actually looking forward to someone saying something like, there are >> few computers in Arab lands. Or perhaps, computers are eyed with suspicion >> in my home country. It would have been interesting. Something that would >> expose issues as to, "Why no Indians and Arabs?" It seems that I have completely misunderstood at least the US members of the FreeBSD project. FreeBSD represents a new social phenomenon, and we've already discussed the demography in terms of male/female (im)balance and age distribution. An obvious other one is cultural distribution. It seems that people in the USA have a hangup about this; sorry, guys, I didn't want to offend anybody. I don't think there's anything wrong in the question, though. As somebody else pointed out, there are times when you want to recognize people by their appearance or ethnic/cultural background. I don't agree with his criteria, but it's an obvious thing to do. I grew up with a large number of both Arabic and Indian friends (to the point where, at the age of 12, I spoke English with a Tamil accent), so you can hardly claim I was discriminating against them. I'm sure that most of my friends of this time would be as surprised about the reactions to my message as I am. > Umm, but the assumption was wrong - there are both Indian and > Arab developers working on FreeBSD. His question was based on false > assumptions, so I don't know that there is anything to really talk > about. :-) Why should that mean there's nothing to talk about? I now know of one representative each of the groups I'm talking about. Why so few? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 1:16:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B049F37B41A for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0052.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.52] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Ftsn-0007Ju-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:16:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1DB7EB.9232204A@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:16:27 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: UNIX on the Desktop (was: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs?) References: <20011216112759.U16958-100000@localhost> <002f01c1866e$1e4d9510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > f.johan writes: > > i'm curious, why would you say it doesn't work well? > > It is a less appropriate choice than Windows or the Mac, for several > reasons, including: > > 1. Windows and the Mac OS were both designed specifically for a windowed, > desktop environment; UNIX was not. Lindows. NeXTStep. Pink. Are you aware that most of the Windows design, from the 1.0 version onward, was based on HP VUE(tm), including the function key bindings (ALT-F4 to close, etc.)? > 2. Windows and the Mac are single-user, dedicated desktop operating systems; > UNIX is a multiuser timesharing system. This is actually a minus, since credential domains are a significant barrier to having your system "owned", aqnd contain damage when the worst does happen (crackers, virus, worms, etc.). > 3. The native user interface of Windows/Mac is a GUI; the native interface > of UNIX is a simple text display. THe former is better suited to desktop > environments (friendly, attractive, ergonomic); the latter is better suited > to servers (inexpensive, efficient, fast). Actually, you probaqbly weren't there for Windows through 95; it was only with Windows 95, when they could not otherwise get rid of DR-DOS, that Windows booted graphically (even then, it ran as an application on DOS, and can still be booted to DOS, up to the point it became NT derived). Caldera (which bought the former Digital Research from Novell) won an outstanding lawsuit in recent years because of this. > 4. The number of useful desktop applications for Windows and the Mac exceed > the number of such applications available for UNIX by several orders of > magnitude. Lindows. MacOS X. > 5. Windows/Mac have virtually no security, but considerable flexibility for > things like games (the two being inversely correlated); UNIX has much better > security, but is less friendly to insecure applications like games. Desktop > enviroments favor flexibility over security. This is not implicit; it's jut a matter of good programming. The "first person shooter" immersive games were originally developed on UNIX (for example, DOOM first ran on NeXTStep). Let us also not forget the contribution of companies like Electronic Arts and Cinemaware (both Utah companies, in fact -- the latter invented the use of "cell animation", which later became the basis of MP2 and MP4 video stream delta-compression). Much of this work occurred on AmigaDOS (and "Intuition"), and the Atari ST (DR-DOS and GEM, a graphical environment also from Digital Research). If you want desktop applications, the first spread sheets, word processors, databases, etc., ran on CP/M (and MP/M) -- also from Digital Research. Finally, remember that the Xerox Alto did not run "MacOS" or "Windows"; Don Masarro, in case you are interested -- the man who took the Xerox Alto to market, and one of the founders of Shugart... you've heard of "floppy disks"? -- is CEO of ClickArray, a company that sells FreeBSD-based web acceleration products. > 6. Since most of the world is running Windows (or the Mac) on its > desktops, compatibility concerns strongly favor this operating system > for new installations. Lindows. > 7. Users are more likely to already be familiar with Windows (or the Mac) > than with UNIX, even in GUI incarnations of the latter. Transferrability of skills has more to do with complying with "The Windows Style Guide" than it does with a paticular graphical toolkit or UI paradigm. This is actually what the Gnome and KDE people need to learn before they will be successful: it is more important that someone be able to transfer skills from a temp employee trained in Microsoft products, than it is to "do it different from Microsoft". The primary barrier for other products entry into the Windows market is that there is a documented US$2,500 per seat (it is now closer to $3,000, IMO) training cost associated with minimal ability to utilize desktop applications. This is also why the stupidity of making computer programs look like "cell hones" or "VCR controls" will continue to flop in the market; while everyone continues to chase product differentiation, there is a stronger requirement that the skills in using, for example, tabbed dialogs, be transferrable to new programs. This requirement *vastly* outweighs the need for differentiation. The same thing that killed the NeXT machine -- the inability to have you product differentiate itself from competitors, or, indeed, any other part of the OS -- is something which a monopoly can force on you, and the benefits to the user are compelling enough that when that happens, as it has with Windows, users prefer "good enough and the same" to "better, but different". And rightly so. > Many of the reasons that favor Windows and the Mac on the desktop also favor > UNIX in the server domain. Assets become liabilities when moving from > desktop to server, and vice versa. It isn't really possible to have an > operating system that handles both environments optimally, and UNIX shines > strongly for servers, whereas Windows shines strongly for desktops. That's actually false, and you know it. The ability to perform "point-and-click" for trivial administrative tasks (such as minimal firewall installation, or minimal mail server configuration) far, far outweighs "raw power" in most cases. Your argument about the "custom MTA" at Hotmail was a convenient strawman. This is, in fact, why Microsoft is so fearful of Apple right now, on a short while after they had to prop them up to show a phantom competitor to minimize the damages they would face from the recent antitrust suits (damages they still face, according to the states, who have refused to knuckle under). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 1:21:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D6D37B405; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:21:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBH9L7R15393; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:21:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <000c01c186dc$291f9fb0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Greg Lehey" , "David Greenman" Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , "FreeBSD Chat" References: <3C1CE49E.39FBBED2@mindspring.com> <20011216222651.A92038@nexus.root.com> <20011217192503.P14500@monorchid.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Political Correctness on -chat (was: Why no Indians and Arabs?) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:21:07 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg writes: > Why should that mean there's nothing to talk > about? I now know of one representative each > of the groups I'm talking about. Why so few? Because the others don't see any point in answering the roll call? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 1:29:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FE9237B41A for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:29:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBH9TfR15422; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:29:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <001101c186dd$5ab94430$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20011216112759.U16958-100000@localhost> <002f01c1866e$1e4d9510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DB7EB.9232204A@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: UNIX on the Desktop (was: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs?) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:29:39 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > Are you aware that most of the Windows > design, from the 1.0 version onward, was > based on HP VUE(tm), including the function > key bindings (ALT-F4 to close, etc.)? I am now, but that has no effect on my statement. UNIX was designed as a multiuser, text-based, server timesharing system; Windows and the Mac were designed as single-user, GUI-based, desktop systems. It should be self-evident that the latter would naturally tend to fit into the desktop environment better than the former. > This is actually a minus, since credential > domains are a significant barrier to having > your system "owned", aqnd contain damage when > the worst does happen (crackers, virus, worms, > etc.). The worst rarely happens, and most desktop users prefer convenience to security. Insofar as they limit this to the desktop, there is little reason not to indulge them. > Actually, you probaqbly weren't there for > Windows through 95 ... I was there for all versions of Windows. > Lindows. MacOS X. I'm talking about UNIX and Windows/Mac (the conventional Mac OS), not hybrids. > The ability to perform "point-and-click" for > trivial administrative tasks (such as minimal > firewall installation, or minimal mail server > configuration) far, far outweighs "raw power" > in most cases. Point-and-click gets very tiring very quickly when you have to do a lot of system administration, especially at a distance. Just modifying a text file can be a lot faster and simpler. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 1:31:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D08C737B417 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:31:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.22] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBH9VUi02753; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:31:30 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <005101c186ca$c637b560$6f830acf@gdennyj> References: <3C1CE49E.39FBBED2@mindspring.com> <20011216222651.A92038@nexus.root.com> <005101c186ca$c637b560$6f830acf@gdennyj> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:31:27 +0100 To: "Denny Jodeit" , "FreeBSD Chat" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:16 AM -0500 on 2001/12/17, Denny Jodeit wrote: > In light of the video recently released, uncovering bin Laden's uncaring > ways for even his own followers, the question about Arabs and Indians was a > little on the insensitive side. But I also understand the nervousness. It's > a Catch22, no doubt. But let's not, for mankind's sake, repeat past > mistakes. Arab in descent doesn't mean evil. Muslims do not want the rest of > the world dead, how ridiculous. No God of any religion would want people > killed in His name. I find all this rather surreal, especially the grossly mistaken belief that all muslims are "evil". I went to the University of Oklahoma, which still has one of the best petroleum engineering schools in the world. It's a state-supported school, and even out-of-state tuition is lower than the in-state tuition at many other universities in the US. This makes it very popular with international students, especially those coming from oil-producing countries. We had a widely varied and rich mix of cultural values, and while I saw more than my share of stupid rednecks that would bash anything that was different, I also met plenty of people from other countries. I found that I frequently liked the international students a lot better than some of the American ones. Some of the international students would say that they were from Persia, because after the fall of the Shah (and the taking of the hostages from the US embassy), they didn't want to be identified with Iran. Some of them said that they were from Palestine, and only once was anyone ignorant enough to ask where that was on the map. Sure, I had some problems with some international students, but I would have had the same problems with Americans that displayed the same sorts of incompetence -- no teaching skills, talking into the blackboard at ninety miles an hour, and answering "Well, it's in the book" to any question asked in class, are not problems unique to international graduate students. If I had been in a class with an American graduate student that exhibited the same kind of behaviour, I would have reported him to the Dean and tried to get him fired, just like I did to the international graduate student who displayed these faults. Incompetence is incompetence, regardless of nationality. Indeed, the only unusually negative interaction I ever recall having with anyone who was Muslim, happened over here a few weeks ago. I was in the Netherlands, attending the final program committee meeting for the SANE 2002 conference, and on my way back to Belgium. A train had just arrived, and I thought it was supposed to be the one I needed to be on (in order to avoid being stranded overnight), but I wasn't sure. So, I was trying to boot my laptop so that I could read an e-mail message I had sent with all the train schedule information, and confirm whether or not this was the right train. I had my laptop out, and carried it and my other bags onto the train, and set down in a compartment. As I was trying to access my laptop, three guys came into the compartment -- one of them tried to direct my attention outside of the train, while the other two tried to steal my laptop bag. It might have worked if I hadn't been in such a rush, and trying to get them to just get out of the compartment and leave me alone. As it was, I noticed what was happening, and as I saw the other two trying to leave, I bellowed at the top of my lungs that they were stealing my bag (I have yet to find anyone who can yell as loud as I can). They apparently decided that it would be the better part of valor to avoid the homicidal American, and retreated at high speed. As best I can figure, these three guys (all Muslim, so far as I could tell from their manner of dress and speech), thought that it would be fun to harass an American, I guess as some sort of retaliation against the actions that had recently started in Afghanistan. But I certainly don't lump all Muslims into the same category as a result of this experience. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 1:43: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4BE37B416; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:43:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0052.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.52] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16FuIV-00010S-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:42:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1DBE25.B03DC40@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:43:01 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Brandon D. Valentine" , David Greenman , Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Top-level domains (was: Why no Indians and Arabs?) References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C1CA6D2.1AC0F625@mindspring.com> <20011217092422.W62493@monorchid.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > and started being taken by outside the U.S. because of the browser > > auto-completion defaults adding a ".com" suffix and "www." prefix, > > if the initial lookup(s) failed. > > The use of these TLDs outside the US far predates the Web. ??? In the UK, it was ".co.uk". in fact, most of Europe used X.500 ordering, as in "uk.co.demon" for a very long time. Since the first time I saw "the Web" was ~1991, and since the ARPANet, which became the NSFNet, which became the Internet, did not allow commercial use until it was deregulated out from under auspices of the NSF, I find that a little hard to believe. The big explosion in domain name registration; in fact, the major justification for them charging for domain names -- I have several which predate registration costs entirely, from the very early 1990's -- was the registration by Dupont of several hundred trademark based domain names in a signle day. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 1:46:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CFCA37B405; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:46:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBH9k2o90128; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:46:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:46:01 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: To: Greg Lehey Cc: David Greenman , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Political Correctness on -chat (was: Why no Indians and Arabs?) In-Reply-To: <20011217192503.P14500@monorchid.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20011217010244.I16958-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > It seems that I have completely misunderstood at least the US members > of the FreeBSD project. FreeBSD represents a new social phenomenon, > and we've already discussed the demography in terms of male/female > (im)balance and age distribution. An obvious other one is cultural > distribution. agreed. > It seems that people in the USA have a hangup about this; sorry, guys, > I didn't want to offend anybody. I don't think there's anything wrong > in the question, though. As somebody else pointed out, there are > times when you want to recognize people by their appearance or > ethnic/cultural background. I don't agree with his criteria, but it's > an obvious thing to do. I grew up with a large number of both Arabic > and Indian friends (to the point where, at the age of 12, I spoke > English with a Tamil accent), so you can hardly claim I was > discriminating against them. I'm sure that most of my friends of this > time would be as surprised about the reactions to my message as I am. i've found it's mostly motivated by people feeling guilty and offended for noticing someones ethnic background. there is a certain amount of paranoia about race here in the US; after all, it's only relatively recently that the "Separate but equal" laws have been repealed or made unconsitutional. i have to admit, this thread did catch me off guard, not so much because of the reactions to it, rather the fact that this came up at all. while i don't doubt your intentions with this (how could i? this would be interesting data), i can see how some people would take this badly. > Why should that mean there's nothing to talk about? I now know of one > representative each of the groups I'm talking about. Why so few? right now, it may be a bad time to ask this kind of a question, being a mere 3 months since septemer 11th (i wish there were a better set of words for this, since naming something after a date is just odd). there is still quite a bit of racist reactions going on around here, and honestly, i can't blame anyone for not telling about their background or ethnicity. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 2: 9:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EAB837B41C for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 02:09:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 41B0B786E4; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:39:08 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:39:08 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Brandon D. Valentine" , David Greenman , Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Top-level domains (was: Why no Indians and Arabs?) Message-ID: <20011217203908.S14500@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C1CA6D2.1AC0F625@mindspring.com> <20011217092422.W62493@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C1DBE25.B03DC40@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C1DBE25.B03DC40@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 17 December 2001 at 1:43:01 -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >>> and started being taken by outside the U.S. because of the browser >>> auto-completion defaults adding a ".com" suffix and "www." prefix, >>> if the initial lookup(s) failed. >> >> The use of these TLDs outside the US far predates the Web. > > ??? > > In the UK, it was ".co.uk". in fact, most of Europe used X.500 > ordering, as in "uk.co.demon" for a very long time. Correct, that was one possibility. All countries, even the USA, have geographical name TLDs. > Since the first time I saw "the Web" was ~1991, and since the > ARPANet, which became the NSFNet, which became the Internet, did not > allow commercial use until it was deregulated out from under > auspices of the NSF, I find that a little hard to believe. Your prerogative. Commercial use has nothing to do with choice of domain names, of course. > The big explosion in domain name registration; in fact, the major > justification for them charging for domain names -- I have several > which predate registration costs entirely, from the very early > 1990's -- was the registration by Dupont of several hundred > trademark based domain names in a signle day. If you say so. I don't know what that has to do with the discussion. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 2:14: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7614137B416; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 02:14:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.22] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBHADpY11623; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:13:51 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C1DBE25.B03DC40@mindspring.com> References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C1CA6D2.1AC0F625@mindspring.com> <20011217092422.W62493@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C1DBE25.B03DC40@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:13:42 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , Greg Lehey From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Top-level domains (was: Why no Indians and Arabs?) Cc: "Brandon D. Valentine" , David Greenman , Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:43 AM -0800 on 2001/12/17, Terry Lambert wrote: > In the UK, it was ".co.uk". in fact, most of Europe used X.500 > ordering, as in "uk.co.demon" for a very long time. I know that this naming scheme was used on JANET, and I'm sure it may have been used in other enclaves as well, but IMO they never were part of the proper Internet -- they were behind gateways that did not allow direct access of one network from the other, and handled the necessarily left-to-right vs. right-to-left translation, etc.... > Since the first time I saw "the Web" was ~1991, and since the > ARPANet, which became the NSFNet, which became the Internet, did > not allow commercial use until it was deregulated out from under > auspices of the NSF, I find that a little hard to believe. How quickly people forget about things like AlterNet, the Commercial Internet Exchange, and the extreme amount of work that groups like Uunet (and other members of CIX) had to go through in order to ensure that no commercial traffic was transited via the NSFnet backbone.... IIRC, CIX and AlterNet had a very valid parallel raison de etre' for about a year, after which NSFnet was pulled from the public side and made entirely private (at which point I think they started work on Internet II), when CIX and AlterNet (and others) stepped into the breach to fill the gap. That was a pretty nasty three to six month period of time, but after that, NSFnet was just a bad memory. > The big explosion in domain name registration; in fact, the > major justification for them charging for domain names -- I have > several which predate registration costs entirely, from the very > early 1990's -- was the registration by Dupont of several hundred > trademark based domain names in a signle day. Even if that was the first mass registration, there were plenty of organizations outside the US that already had registrations in the .com, .net, .edu, and .org gTLDs. The issue here is not the reason for the first explosion in registrations, but the simple existence of gTLD registrations outside the US from a very early period. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 2:19: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E8737B421; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 02:19:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-319.wobline.de [212.68.71.40]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBHAIc726014; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:18:38 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBHAK5X15821; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:20:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBHAJBT43459; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:19:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:18:35 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Message-ID: <20011217111835.A43375@tisys.org> References: <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <20011217163427.A2885@monorchid.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 12:17:42AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD jodie.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 11:05AM up 4:25, 1 user, load averages: 0.17, 0.06, 0.05 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 12:17:42AM -0700, Brett Glass stood up and spoke: > > >I interpret this to mean "after linking". It would appear to be the > >kernel binary which falls under the GPL. About the only obligation of > >the FreeBSD project would be to make the corresponding source code > >available. > > Not true. The FreeBSD Project would be obliged to license the entire > kernel -- source and binary -- under the GPL. Well, though I currently don't care much about the JFS thing, I think that we already have some GPL thing in the kernel: There seems to a GNU fpu emulator that is under the GPL and can be used instead of the (BSD licensed) standard FPU emulator. I don't think that GNU FPU is on by default in GENERIC, but I guess that JFS might not be either. Therefore, theoretically, as the GNU FPU code has not caused any problems, why should JFS code do? I thought that you were talking about making FreeBSD support the JFS filesystem, and not making FreeBSD *depend* on JFS, so that JFS becomes the main and only filesystem available. Consequently, I don't see any problems here. *If* a possible JFS port would require us to license the whole kernel under the GPL, then I guess the inclusion of the GNU FPU code already does that now. Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 2:23:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5980D37B41B; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 02:23:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0020.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.20] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16FuvL-0006et-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 02:23:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1DC78D.5305B4E8@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 02:23:09 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <20011217163427.A2885@monorchid.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > This sounds to me like a technicality. For me, the main thing is that > the FreeBSD code remains under the BSD license, and it seems that > there's no issue there. I'm sure that you, Brett, are in a better > position than I to find any problems with the "solution". RMS is wrong; all of FreeBSD is not covered by the 2 clause license. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 2:49:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C5837B417 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 02:49:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0020.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.20] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16FvKc-00073M-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 02:49:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1DCDAC.CEA3DEAF@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 02:49:16 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: UNIX on the Desktop (was: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs?) References: <20011216112759.U16958-100000@localhost> <002f01c1866e$1e4d9510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DB7EB.9232204A@mindspring.com> <001101c186dd$5ab94430$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > UNIX was designed as a multiuser, text-based, server timesharing > system; Actually, it was designed as a single user Multics replacement to serve as a loader and emulator for already written "space war" and other games for PDP hardware, that Ken and Dennis wanted to be able to play. It evolved into a control system for phone switches when Ken had to justify the work. You really need to read a history of UNIX, and you need to read the original Bell Labs Technical Journals where early UNIX was chornicled; any good university technical library should have archive copies in the stacks. > Windows and the Mac were designed as single-user, GUI-based, desktop > systems. It should be self-evident that the latter would naturally > tend to fit into the desktop environment better than the former. It's not. The single user nature was a direct result of the lack of credentials in the predecessor OSs. It was a mistake. If you have followed the evolution of CIFS over the years, you would know that there is now the possibility of passing credential information over a single multiplex channel to a file server. Please do not confuse "single user" with "single credential". The current crop of Windows desktops are "single user" (so was NeXTStep, due to Display Postscript proxying limitations, unless you ran other atypical applications -- as with Telnet, whos daemon uses the Windows NT "Impersonate()" call in order to switch credentials, and only provides "multiuser" access because of its ability to run non-standard shells). FWIW: I uses to run DOS machines "multiuser", using a timer based TSR facility and the serial port redirection available to handle COM port based I/O, which surfaces in MS-DOS 2.11 (I did this on Leading Edge 8086 boxes). The resulting machines were "multiuser", but NOT "multicredentialed". > > This is actually a minus, since credential > > domains are a significant barrier to having > > your system "owned", aqnd contain damage when > > the worst does happen (crackers, virus, worms, > > etc.). > > The worst rarely happens, and most desktop users prefer convenience to > security. Insofar as they limit this to the desktop, there is little > reason not to indulge them. THere's really nothing inconvenient about credential enforcement, when it is done correctly. It only ever becomes obtrusive when you are being "owned", and a dialog box pops up and asks you for your password to permit the write of the DLL to the C:\windows\system directory. I run with a VXD that hooks the IFSMgr calls below the IFSMgr layer on my Windows box, precisely to let me deny such writes, which should only be necessary during software installation (which I always do offline). So even without "multiuser" or "multicredential", I get the same level of enforcement that yo state is the primary reason to not have "multiuser" or "multicredential" support in a desktop. > > Actually, you probaqbly weren't there for > > Windows through 95 ... > > I was there for all versions of Windows. Then you were well aware that Windows was not an intrinsic part of the OS, but was instead an application program that ran as a graphical user shell, capable of "fork/exec" type operations, and that you boot to DOS, not Windows, and the Windows startup has more to do with the initial command loaded being "command" or "win". > > Lindows. MacOS X. > > I'm talking about UNIX and Windows/Mac (the conventional Mac OS), not > hybrids. Of course, since once again, they defeat your binary view of the universe... 8^). > > The ability to perform "point-and-click" for > > trivial administrative tasks (such as minimal > > firewall installation, or minimal mail server > > configuration) far, far outweighs "raw power" > > in most cases. > > Point-and-click gets very tiring very quickly when you have to do a lot of > system administration, especially at a distance. Just modifying a text file > can be a lot faster and simpler. Sure. That's what scripting languages are for. Most people don't need to do that sort of thing, though, for a non-enterprise installation, and even if they do, the number of people they have to support is small enough that they can "live with the pain" of GUI administration. And since small businesses grow up to be big businesses, a GUI administration facility is a requisite bridge that make market penetration significantly easier. It's definitely not an accident that Apple is (or is going to be) the UNIX vendor with the single largest installation count of all time. Apple is all about small shop ease of use. I rather expect Apple to start selling rack-mount systems as OS/X becomes more popular... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 3: 9:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A47F37B41F for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:09:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7125BC087; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:09:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA16467; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:09:36 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBHBAUZ29417; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:10:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <20011216113458.R87600@monorchid.lemis.com> <200112170550.fBH5oea01099@aztec.santafe.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 17 Dec 2001 03:10:29 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> Message-ID: Lines: 26 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > Not true. The FreeBSD Project would be obliged to license the entire > kernel -- source and binary -- under the GPL. A dual license should be sufficient; not that I'd like that either. (It'd be GPL like the Linux kernel, only with more BSDL code. :-) > There is a very serious issue. It contains GPLed code and has been > distributed. This means that if the GPL is legally enforceable, > every version of FreeBSD that has contained that code must be > licensed under the GPL. Serious indeed. But that last part isn't necessarily correct. Unless the copyright owners being infringed are jerks and willing and able to threaten FreeBSD owners with serious damages and penalties (which might not be serious or even non-zero now but could be serious with JFS) so that they could bully FreeBSD into re-licensing. It'd cause a huge flap. In practice, it would very likely be sufficient to just remove the GPL code. Unfortunately, another thing that happens, in practice, is that nobody wants to take any preventative steps until the wolf is at the door, after JFS, etc, are distributed with FreeBSD and legal threats must be taken seriously. (I don't know why IBM would care, but I wouldn't bet on their lawyers.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 3:12:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82AE337B417 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBHBCfR15764; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:12:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <003301c186eb$bf1e8710$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20011216112759.U16958-100000@localhost> <002f01c1866e$1e4d9510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DB7EB.9232204A@mindspring.com> <001101c186dd$5ab94430$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DCDAC.CEA3DEAF@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: UNIX on the Desktop (was: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs?) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:12:41 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > Actually, it was designed as a single user > Multics replacement to serve as a loader > and emulator for already written "space war" > and other games for PDP hardware ... By the time it gained any widespread use, it was designed as a multiuser timesharing system. > You really need to read a history of UNIX ... I'm familiar with the history of UNIX. A glance at the architecture of UNIX as it has been for the past two decades or so reveals a multiuser, text-based timesharing system, not a dedicated, single-user desktop. > If you have followed the evolution of CIFS > over the years, you would know that there is > now the possibility of passing credential > information over a single multiplex channel > to a file server. Single-user desktops do not necessarily communicate with file servers. They may not communicate with anything at all. > Please do not confuse "single user" with > "single credential". I'm not. See above. Credentials are only meaningful in multiuser environments, however. In a single-user environment, everyone always has the same credentials, so they become irrelevant. > FWIW: I uses to run DOS machines "multiuser", > using a timer based TSR facility and the serial > port redirection available to handle COM port > based I/O, which surfaces in MS-DOS 2.11 (I > did this on Leading Edge 8086 boxes). The > resulting machines were "multiuser", > but NOT "multicredentialed". Most people did not do this, so your comment is irrelevant. > THere's really nothing inconvenient about > credential enforcement, when it is done > correctly. It requires more effort than no credential enforcement, whether it is done correctly or not. And it is often unnecessary. > So even without "multiuser" or "multicredential", > I get the same level of enforcement that yo state > is the primary reason to not have "multiuser" or > "multicredential" support in a desktop. You are not representative. > Then you were well aware that Windows was not > an intrinsic part of the OS, but was instead an > application program that ran as a graphical > user shell, capable of "fork/exec" type > operations, and that you boot to DOS, not Windows, > and the Windows startup has more to do with the > initial command loaded being "command" or "win". Yes, I am, which makes me wonder why you feel compelled to explain it. > Of course, since once again, they defeat your > binary view of the universe... 8^). No, they simply aren't significant players. Nobody cares about Lindows, except maybe Lindows, Inc. > Sure. That's what scripting languages are for. > Most people don't need to do that sort of thing, > though, for a non-enterprise installation ... And those who don't are not system administrators, and thus do not require a graphic interface to these functions, either. > ... and even if they do, the number of people > they have to support is small enough that they > can "live with the pain" of GUI administration. If it is painful, then it is not as convenient as you first asserted, is it? > I rather expect Apple to start selling rack-mount > systems as OS/X becomes more popular... I don't. They've modified the system too much and turned it away from a server application. Besides, it would not be in line with their sacred mission. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 3:26: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A50B37B416; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:25:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0066.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.66] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Fvtg-00056X-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:25:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1DD60D.A0263D82@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:25:01 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: Greg Lehey , David Greenman , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Political Correctness on -chat (was: Why no Indians and Arabs?) References: <20011217010244.I16958-100000@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "f.johan.beisser" wrote: > i've found it's mostly motivated by people feeling guilty and offended for > noticing someones ethnic background. Foo. I have never felt guilty about noticing anything; noticing things is one of the things I do. I generally do get offended when there are attempts at demographic categorization of any kind, particularly with regard to ethnicity, but I have a firm philosophical basis for being offended, I think. IMO, most human problems come about because of self-identification into groups. I would prefer it be illegal for even government forms to ask ethnicity, including but not limited to census forms. > there is a certain amount of paranoia about race here in the US; > after all, it's only relatively recently that the "Separate but > equal" laws have been repealed or made unconsitutional. This is partially true (the laws were always unconstitutional), but forced notice of race has driven most issues of race based violence, predominantly as a result of self identification. > i have to admit, this thread did catch me off guard, not so much because > of the reactions to it, rather the fact that this came up at all. while i > don't doubt your intentions with this (how could i? this would be > interesting data), i can see how some people would take this badly. It would be interesting data if it were anyonymously collected, so as not to tag individuals by label. One of the benefits of a semi-anonymous forum like this one is that the only basis you have to judge someone by is intellect, domain name, and personal name, and, because the U.S. is what it is, any assumptions based on name or surname are not verifiable, and any assumptions based on domain name are similarly masked by the nature of the Internet. In other words, you have to judge people, if you insist on judging people, by their statements and actions. One thing that I've been happy to note in recent years is that people on these lists are being judged less and less on their method of expressing their ideas, and more on the content and context in which those ideas are raised. That is, IMO, a big breakthrough: the validity of an idea is not based on formal credentials, and, if you can't tell a Japanese person with a PhD in Molecular Biology who has imperfect English skills from a native English speaking 14 year old in Sydney Australia, and have to judge their ideas on their own merits, well, that can only be a good thing. > > Why should that mean there's nothing to talk about? I now know of one > > representative each of the groups I'm talking about. Why so few? > > right now, it may be a bad time to ask this kind of a question, being a > mere 3 months since septemer 11th (i wish there were a better set of words > for this, since naming something after a date is just odd). there is still > quite a bit of racist reactions going on around here, and honestly, i > can't blame anyone for not telling about their background or ethnicity. It has nothing to do with the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, and everything to do with forcing people with comfortable little sterotype-based world views to have to evaluate people on the merits of their expressed ideas, rather than the clues they would use to prejudge them in day to day person to person interaction, otherwise. I pride myself on being able to call a jackass a jackass or a genius a genius, regardless of how "political correctness" dictates that I should temper my words "out of sensitivity for their situation", as if someone's situation had any damn bearing on the validity of their ideas or statements. There is no such thing as contextual validity when it comes to the laws of the universe, and I'll be damned if I'll act as if there were, or even assist in any way in establishing the context by which such a theory could successfully operate. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 3:29:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C85C37B41E; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:29:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0066.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.66] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Fvxl-0006jV-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:29:42 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1DD727.C7F10C6D@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:29:43 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Brandon D. Valentine" , David Greenman , Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Top-level domains (was: Why no Indians and Arabs?) References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C1CA6D2.1AC0F625@mindspring.com> <20011217092422.W62493@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C1DBE25.B03DC40@mindspring.com> <20011217203908.S14500@monorchid.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > Since the first time I saw "the Web" was ~1991, and since the > > ARPANet, which became the NSFNet, which became the Internet, did not > > allow commercial use until it was deregulated out from under > > auspices of the NSF, I find that a little hard to believe. > > Your prerogative. Commercial use has nothing to do with choice of > domain names, of course. The ".com" TLD did not take off until commercial enterprise was permitted. Before that, there were a few ".com" sites, but they were run by the research arms of corporations. > > The big explosion in domain name registration; in fact, the major > > justification for them charging for domain names -- I have several > > which predate registration costs entirely, from the very early > > 1990's -- was the registration by Dupont of several hundred > > trademark based domain names in a signle day. > > If you say so. I don't know what that has to do with the discussion. It has to do with ".com" not being sortable to provide statistically valid nationality demographics, of course. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 3:31: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB8F37B420 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:30:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 16FvyT-0008E0-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:30:25 +0100 Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBHBBje94852 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:11:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mailnull) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Top-level domains Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:11:45 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <9vkjth$2sc2$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C1CA6D2.1AC0F625@mindspring.com> <20011217092422.W62493@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C1DBE25.B03DC40@mindspring.com> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > In the UK, it was ".co.uk". in fact, most of Europe used X.500 > ordering, as in "uk.co.demon" for a very long time. Care to substantiate that claim? The only context in which I've ever heard of those reversed addresses was JANET, and the UK does not qualify as "most of Europe". -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 3:34:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1066237B6C5; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:32:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1640C075; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:32:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA20396; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:32:47 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBHBXfL29599; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:33:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <20011217163427.A2885@monorchid.lemis.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 17 Dec 2001 03:33:41 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011217163427.A2885@monorchid.lemis.com> Message-ID: Lines: 124 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Sunday, 16 December 2001 at 22:21:50 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 12:18 AM 12/16/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> > >> If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the > >> Program, and can be reasonably considered independent and separate > >> works in themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply > >> to those sections when you distribute them as separate works. On the other hand (from the GPL): But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote it. Back on the first hand (from the GPL): In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this License. These is clear as mud, which gives a licensor a good basis for taking whichever side of the issue is important to him in a situation. Who can predict how a court would read this? One can only ask the license if he'd sue you (and hope he doesn't) or get a written clarification that becomes a part of the contract (so it isn't the GPL). More below. FUD is very appropriate here, no matter how clear cut RMS makes it sound. Remember, this is the same guy who recommended using the GPL (on CORBA interface code) in the same message he said he knew it wasn't enforcible ("So the real question is, what result do you want?"). > > If they're part of the kernel, they're not separate works. RMS would > > have the right to demand, TODAY, that the entire FreeBSD kernel be > > licensed under the GPL. This is the danger of permitting the camel's > > nose into the tent. Well, IBM could; by threating suit to stop JFS distribution (silly since it's GPLed) and collect damages and penalty (likely enough to make people settle it IBM's way). Except I wonder who they sue? One can't tell from freebsd.org who owns the copyrights on FreeBSD. Is it WR, one of several organizations of questionable legal status, or a cast of hundreds? > Well, why don't we ask him? This flabbergasts me. Can it BE that this issue hasn't been hashed out long ago and the licensing policies well established among journeymen? > On Sunday, 16 December 2001 at 22:50:40 -0700, Richard Stallman wrote: > > When code is linked together, that is not "mere aggregation"; that is > > making one program. If you link some GPL-covered code into the > > kernel, the GPL's conditions will apply to the kernel as a whole. It's debatable whether linking is "mere aggregation". We can't even be sure what "mere aggregation" means. Almost all aggregations form a new work with it's own copyright, but maybe it could be interpretted as one involving no creative authorship, like a phone number list. Does linking involve authorship? The person linking or the makefile author? Also note that all aggregations make one program in the terms of the GPL which (in section 0) defines "program" as the work covered by the GPL; it doesn't even have to contain executable or compilable code. (This conforms with most legal language I've seen. Law doesn't seem to much care how works are used.) If it's an aggregation and the BSDL part is no not based on the GPL part, then contamination is not a problem (if it weren't for the contradictory clauses, anyway). Also, that "mere" is a mere editorial comment and doesn't effect the meaning of the license clause; the word can be ignored. This reflects on the reasoning behind RMS's last sentence above, but doesn't mean that it isn't still true. We still need to interpret that quoted mess above. > > I don't think that results in any legal difficulty. The FreeBSD > > kernel uses the revised BSD license, right? That is compatible with > > the GPL. So you can link these things together. The kernel code > > released under the revised BSD license will continue to be under the > > revised BSD license; it is only the *combination as a whole* that will > > be covered by the GPL--if and when the GPL-covered code is included in > > it. Terry says the kernel has some non-GPL-compatible parts. Even if it didn't, the GPL quote above says that the both parts (the whole) must be distributed under the terms of the GPL. This requires a change of licensing (even if just to dual-license) on the kernel. The GPL makes it a condition of the license that the kernel be licensed for distribution under the terms of the GPL. (It doesn't prevent it from also being licensed under the BSDL.) But the important point is that it requires a change of license, and only the copyright owners may do that. IS there a single copyright owner who can do that? Do the copyright owners want the kernel to be dual-licensed? It's a slippery slope. > I interpret this to mean "after linking". It would appear to be the > kernel binary which falls under the GPL. About the only obligation of > the FreeBSD project would be to make the corresponding source code > available. But you could also be said to be distributing a work which consists of the source code of both parts as a whole. Maybe the ports scheme gets around that, but then maybe the lawyers will call that a "work-around" of the license and judge it the same as a statically linked program. > > If someone links a kernel without that GPL-covered code, the GPL > > won't apply to that kernel. > > > > The main consequence, legally, of including some GPL-covered code > > would be that you could not *also* link in other code with > > GPL-incompatible licenses. Since the kernel has some incompatible code, that's a problem. Actually, I consider it a good thing. I don't want to see a GPL kernel with a lot of BSDL code in it, which is what we're looking at here. I believe that the aggregation clause allows even static linking without contamination since that can be viewed as just a means of storing two separate works of authorship which are not based on the other (one doesn't contain parts of the other (as derivative is defined in the GPL)) and it is a "mere" aggregation, etc. But I wouldn't risk running with an idea not shared by the licensors without some deep pockets. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 3:36:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9AAF37B405; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:36:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0066.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.66] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Fw4A-0001aw-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:36:19 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1DD8B4.5879142F@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:36:20 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Greg Lehey , "Brandon D. Valentine" , David Greenman , Anthony Atkielski , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Top-level domains (was: Why no Indians and Arabs?) References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C1CA6D2.1AC0F625@mindspring.com> <20011217092422.W62493@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C1DBE25.B03DC40@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > Even if that was the first mass registration, there were plenty > of organizations outside the US that already had registrations in the > .com, .net, .edu, and .org gTLDs. The issue here is not the reason > for the first explosion in registrations, but the simple existence of > gTLD registrations outside the US from a very early period. I'm saying the rules didn't allow this, at one time. I know at least one Canadian who got a .com domainin order to get around a U.S. .com based location check on cryptographic code (PGP from MIT, particularly). It used to be valid to make national decisions based on TLD suffix, even for .com/.edu/.net/.gov/.mil (.edu/.gov/.mil decisions are still valid -- or perhaps, the .edu one is no logner valid, though I have no counter examples at hand). All I'm saying is that demographic collation based on mailing list archives would have to take the effect of the spread of nominally U.S.-only domain names outside the U.S.. I also think that the browser completion was probably an unfortunate mistake, without a synthetic requirement (e.g. that such names must be CNAMEs, not A records, for demographically valid names). I'm a little miffed that ".tm" was given out as a country code, rather than to a trademark namespace, while I'm at it... 8^). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 3:47: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76E9037B41D; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0066.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.66] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16FwEH-0005lV-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:46:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1DDB26.62969FFB@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:46:46 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <20011217163427.A2885@monorchid.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> <20011217111835.A43375@tisys.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: > I don't think that GNU FPU is on by default in GENERIC, but I guess that > JFS might not be either. Therefore, theoretically, as the GNU FPU code has > not caused any problems, why should JFS code do? It is not required to simply boot the OS, the way that JFS would be, if the default were to install to JFS partitions. One major point to keep in mind is that most people do not change from the defaults, once installed (which is why most Windows users do not "also run" Linux, FreeBSD, etc.). For JFS to be useful, it would really need to be an installation option, and the inability to make it an installation option as a result iof the license is the problem at hand. The GNU FPU emulator is much less useful (and much less used) because of the usefully equivalent BSD version that is the default, and because of most modern hardware, wigth the exception of embedded systems, coming with FPU hardware already installed. Likewise, JFS, if UFS were still the default, would seee little deployment, in the same way that the GNU FPU emulation sees little deployment. > I thought that you were talking about making FreeBSD support the JFS > filesystem, and not making FreeBSD *depend* on JFS, so that JFS becomes the > main and only filesystem available. Consequently, I don't see any problems > here. See above. For it to be useful, it has to be easy to use as the default FS. The IBM people recognize this as well, as regards JFS usage in Linux (see the IBM white papers for reference). > *If* a possible JFS port would require us to license the whole kernel > under the GPL, then I guess the inclusion of the GNU FPU code already does > that now. It's not linked with the kernel by default. Therefor, it is mostly not used, unless the linking is done locally and with intent. By the same token, the JFS would/could not be used by default. Unlike the root FS type, however, you can recompile a kernel to use a different FPU emulator rather easily, and without impacting things like the on disk FS structure. For that reason, I believe that the JFS would find *much less* use, even, than the GNU FPU emulator. FWIW, -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 4:20: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nsvm09.zaq.ne.jp (nsvm09.zaq.ne.jp [211.124.0.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A01BE37B41F for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 04:19:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3477 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2001 21:19:01 +0900 Received: from zaqd3875bb3.zaq.ne.jp (HELO mail.njstar.net) (211.135.91.179) by nsvm09.zaq.ne.jp with SMTP; 17 Dec 2001 21:19:01 +0900 From: "Shannon.G@njstar.com" To: "8687@hotbot.com" <8687@hotbot.com> Message-ID: <1008613073.0733327407@mail.njstar.net> Subject: Conference calls are safe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 04:19:03 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Take Control Of Your Conference Calls

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    To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 4:24:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7DFF37B41E for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 04:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0066.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.66] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16FwoT-0006f5-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 04:24:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1DE3EB.8AB3C4E0@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 04:24:11 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: UNIX on the Desktop (was: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs?) References: <20011216112759.U16958-100000@localhost> <002f01c1866e$1e4d9510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DB7EB.9232204A@mindspring.com> <001101c186dd$5ab94430$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DCDAC.CEA3DEAF@mindspring.com> <003301c186eb$bf1e8710$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > I'm not. See above. Credentials are only meaningful in multiuser > environments, however. In a single-user environment, everyone always has > the same credentials, so they become irrelevant. This is false. Credentials are incredibly useful for keeping single users from being able to aim guns at their feet, without extraordinary effort. I would argue that the inability to delete the active Windows swap file is a locking issue on the order of credential based locking, since both control ability of the user to manipulate a resource, and which resources are regarded as system vs. user. As such, there is no difference in "inconvenience". There are many other examples of access controlled resources/objects in Windows. > > THere's really nothing inconvenient about > > credential enforcement, when it is done > > correctly. > > It requires more effort than no credential enforcement, whether it is done > correctly or not. And it is often unnecessary. No, it requires more effort to turn it off. Have you tried browsing to your C:\windows\system directory in Explorer lately? You have to explicitly OK the navigation, as these are protected directories. If something is done correctly, the only effort is on the part of the programmers of the OS, not the users. Since users of the OS out number programmers 100,000 to 1, then if something would save 1 hour of user time on average, it's worth 100,000 programmer hours to make happen. I'm sure I could do everything I've talked about, given 12 man years in which to accomplish it. 8^). It's like the Steve Jobs argument about cutting 30 seconds off the Macintosh boot time: sell 1,000,000 machines, and for evey 30 seconds you cut off the boot time, you've saved an entire human life. > > So even without "multiuser" or "multicredential", > > I get the same level of enforcement that yo state > > is the primary reason to not have "multiuser" or > > "multicredential" support in a desktop. > > You are not representative. You are not representative of someone qualified to judge whether or not I am representative. 8^). > > Then you were well aware that Windows was not > > an intrinsic part of the OS, but was instead an > > application program that ran as a graphical > > user shell, capable of "fork/exec" type > > operations, and that you boot to DOS, not Windows, > > and the Windows startup has more to do with the > > initial command loaded being "command" or "win". > > Yes, I am, which makes me wonder why you feel compelled to explain it. I felt compelled because you were obvious ignoring it. It's nice to know from your response that it wasn't ignorance, but the inconvenince of the facts to your argument, which caused that omission. 8^). > > Of course, since once again, they defeat your > > binary view of the universe... 8^). > > No, they simply aren't significant players. Nobody cares about Lindows, > except maybe Lindows, Inc. You are not representative. > > Sure. That's what scripting languages are for. > > Most people don't need to do that sort of thing, > > though, for a non-enterprise installation ... > > And those who don't are not system administrators, and thus do not require a > graphic interface to these functions, either. They require it _because_ they aren't system administrators. > > ... and even if they do, the number of people > > they have to support is small enough that they > > can "live with the pain" of GUI administration. > > If it is painful, then it is not as convenient as you first asserted, is it? It's only painful when doing things at an enterprise level. If you are going to delete text and replace it with an ellipsis, at least make it clear that that is what you are doing, by placing the ellipsis in brackets, OK. Thanks. > > I rather expect Apple to start selling rack-mount > > systems as OS/X becomes more popular... > > I don't. They've modified the system too much and turned it away from a > server application. Besides, it would not be in line with their sacred > mission. Your opinion, of course. History of most technology companies would disagree with you, including the history of Microsoft. Almost without exception, companies which have remained in any market and active have sold up market as their products matured, in order to maintain both their profit margin, and their rate of increase. I suggest reading: The Innovators Dilemma Clayton M. Christensen Harrper Collins (HarperBusiness) ISBN: 0-06-662069-4 and paying special attention to the documentation of the cases of the disk, mechanical excavator, and Woolworth/Woolco (and other "discount" stores). There are several other books which show the disasterous effects on comapnies unwilling to change their margin and/or profit model, including the BMW attempt to introduce a lower market brand. In contrast, we have "Lexus" and "Audi" upmarket selling by seperate division brand creation. Relative to its involvement in the personal computer industry, Microsoft has only recently started selling upmarket into the server software niche. History of other industries indicates that it will need to continue to move upmarket, as time goes on. Frankly, Microsoft has leveraged its monopoly position on the desktop (a position you seem hell-bent on being the appologist for, coming up with rationalization after rationalization) in order to force what is probably premature entry into the server market on its part, rather than moving naturally up-market as a result of increased product quality. One can't fault them for the viability of the approach as a chasm-crossing strategy. See also: Crossing The Chasm Geoffrey A. Moore (Regis McKenna, Inc.) Harper Collins (HarperBusiness) ISBN: 0-88730-717-5 Eventually, I expect that Microsoft will spin-off or simply "decide to abandon" the desktop market. This may occur sooner than later; it has remained delayed because of their controlling interest in their desktop applications division, even though the Windows desktop profits have been mostly marginalized. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 4:52: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E7837B416; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 04:51:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0066.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.66] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16FxFI-0004kI-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 04:51:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1DEA69.93892A66@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 04:51:53 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Greg Lehey , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <20011217163427.A2885@monorchid.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Terry says the kernel has some non-GPL-compatible parts. No, RMS states that the 4 clause license isn't compatible. One example of the 4 clause license is at: There are tons of other examples, but one is enough. The license can not be changed without the consent of all the authors. > Even if it didn't, the GPL quote above says that the both parts (the > whole) must be distributed under the terms of the GPL. This requires > a change of licensing (even if just to dual-license) on the kernel. Actually, it requires GPL on the distribution. Technically, it is an aggregate license in that case. The real bearing it has is on whether or not a distributor can link the code and then sunsequently distribute it, or if the code after linking is not redistributable, but can be created in that form by an end user. Currently, the generally accepts answers are "no, to the former, yes to the latter". Dual licensing is a tertiary issue: it would be one possible way of legally doing the former. > The GPL makes it a condition of the license that the kernel be licensed > for distribution under the terms of the GPL. (It doesn't prevent it from > also being licensed under the BSDL.) But the important point is that it > requires a change of license, and only the copyright owners may do that. It's OK with an aggregate license, but since you can't use an aggregate license because of the incompatability, it's moot. > IS there a single copyright owner who can do that? Do the copyright > owners want the kernel to be dual-licensed? It's a slippery slope. "No", and "No", for some instances of Copyright holders. The real slippery slope is: hacing obtained the BSDL'ed code under an aggreegate GPL, is it even legally possible for derivative works to not also fall under the GPL? If the answer is "No" (I think it is), then you have effectively ended developement rights on the code. The way you would have to get around this is to insist on a relinking of the kernel by the user, in that case, rather than the use of modules, should the modules be derived from the original BSDL'ed code. This would work, if we took special care to ensure the aggregate license only applied to the binaries on the distribution, and that the sources were distributed to comply with the aggregate license, bute were not, themselves subject to that license. This would probably require parallel distribution of the sources, since in order to comply with the GPL terms, you must distribute the code that is under the GPL terms under the terms of the GPL. Probably, you would have to have two version, with parallel boiler plate, with additional boiler plate for the GPL "version". It gets very ugly, but it's theoretically doable. But the entire argument is redicated on license compatability, and the "no additional restrictions" of the GPL means that the "claim credit" and "non-endorsement of derivative works" clauses of the 3 and 4 clause BSDL are restrictions over and obove of the GPL restrictions... not to mention PHK's "BeerWare" license on some of the kernel requring you to give him a beer "if you meet hom and if you like the code". Bill Paul also has a nice "additional restriction" in his Ethernet driver boilerplate, in terms of who (or what, in this case 8^)) is covered by the "hold harmless" portion of the license. > > I interpret this to mean "after linking". It would appear to be the > > kernel binary which falls under the GPL. About the only obligation of > > the FreeBSD project would be to make the corresponding source code > > available. > > But you could also be said to be distributing a work which consists of > the source code of both parts as a whole. Maybe the ports scheme gets > around that, but then maybe the lawyers will call that a "work-around" > of the license and judge it the same as a statically linked program. Yes. Hence the "dual distribution", since the requirements are that you distribute the sources under the same terms of the binary come into effect. > Since the kernel has some incompatible code, that's a problem. > Actually, I consider it a good thing. I don't want to see a GPL kernel > with a lot of BSDL code in it, which is what we're looking at here. And that's the boat I think most of us are in... 8^). As I said before, I think most of us in the BSD camps would put the code in the public domain, if we could get away with it, but since we can't, it's just as convenient that the GPL poison pills itself against the BSDL in the same way that putting the code in the public domain would prevent someone from taking it out of the intellectual commons and restricting derivative works. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 5:12:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7F0837B41A for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 05:12:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0066.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.66] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16FxZA-0006ll-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 05:12:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1DEF39.DE92F450@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 05:12:25 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Top-level domains References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C1CA6D2.1AC0F625@mindspring.com> <20011217092422.W62493@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C1DBE25.B03DC40@mindspring.com> <9vkjth$2sc2$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > In the UK, it was ".co.uk". in fact, most of Europe used X.500 > > ordering, as in "uk.co.demon" for a very long time. > > Care to substantiate that claim? > The only context in which I've ever heard of those reversed addresses > was JANET, and the UK does not qualify as "most of Europe". The answer to this lies in the lookup middleware and the name translation. The initial value of network connectivity was in email distribution (as someone else noted, primarily Usenet). The middleware for name translation in the U.K. followed the OSI model (most of the U.K. "Internet" was X.25 links, using point to point routing of messages, e.g. "ihnp4!unisys2!century!terry", and was slow to move to domain based routing. FWIW: My first use of the ArpaNet was in 1981, where the University I was attending, the University of Utah, became the fourth site on the first TCP/IP based ArpaNet. Paul Mockapetris designed the original DNS at USC, in order to replace the "hosts.txt" file, back in 1984 (RFC 882 and RFC 883), and it was not until some time afterward (~1987, with the advent of RFC 1034 and RFC 1035) that the DNS was more or less deployed, and applied to email addressing. See RFC 1034 for better details of the history. Also FWIW: One of the first email systems ever was written by Greg Haerr, then at UCSD, and, later, my boss at my first job after college, also in the very early 1980's; it first ran over the old "Berknet" (async serial packet network using Zilog UARTs: the predecessor to the TCP/IP ARPANet) shortly before his graduation, as a project for a UCSD professor Note to antiquarians: you used to have to use seperate programs to send and read mail, and they had to be run manually by a human; it's amazing how different things are in less than 20 years, isn't it? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 5:53:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31AD37B419; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 05:53:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-165.wobline.de [212.68.69.173]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBHDrM716680; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:53:23 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBHDsoX16632; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:54:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBHDrvZ45299; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:53:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:53:22 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Message-ID: <20011217145322.A45210@tisys.org> References: <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <20011217163427.A2885@monorchid.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> <20011217111835.A43375@tisys.org> <3C1DDB26.62969FFB@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C1DDB26.62969FFB@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 03:46:46AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD jodie.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 2:30PM up 7:50, 1 user, load averages: 0.12, 0.03, 0.01 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 03:46:46AM -0800, Terry Lambert stood up and spoke: > > > > I thought that you were talking about making FreeBSD support the JFS > > filesystem, and not making FreeBSD *depend* on JFS, so that JFS becomes the > > main and only filesystem available. Consequently, I don't see any problems > > here. > > See above. For it to be useful, it has to be easy to use as the > default FS. The IBM people recognize this as well, as regards JFS > usage in Linux (see the IBM white papers for reference). Of course, this changes quite a lot. As I said, I did not really follow the JFS messages and I thought discussions were going on about making it a supported file system, just as ext2 and FAT are "supported" by the means that slices in this format can be mounted and accessed. However, if talks are about making JFS a choice of default file system at install time (which would require the default and install media kernel to be equipped with JFS code), then this issue is indeed different. Under this light, I understand the previously mentioned dangers that a JFS port would bring us. I don't want to repeat what has already been said, but I would really hate to see FreeBSD under the GPL, as would most of you. Furthermore, I would not be very happy to see legal action being taken against the Project after a possible JFS port has been completed. We do not have any written agreements here, and inspite of what RMS has said now, who knows what he (or IBM or anyone else involved with the JFS code) will say later? In the worst case (and I don't know how likely that would be), these people could require us to virtually make our code theirs (under the GPL). A slight disagreement about licensing issues may mean that this can be brought to a court, which then can make some bad decisions. Alternatively, other legal actions could be taken, like various penalities against the FreeBSD Project. Such penalties surely would be no good - I guess every hacker (and even user) of this project has better things to do than dealing with such things. In the end, whatever gets done, I'd suggest that any unclear implications of any futher move be investigated into beforehand, because else we could face some very unpleasant problems in the end... Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 6:42:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D13B37B416; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 06:42:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0043.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.43] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16FyyS-0005dA-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 06:42:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1E045C.2828C1E3@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 06:42:36 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <20011217163427.A2885@monorchid.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> <20011217111835.A43375@tisys.org> <3C1DDB26.62969FFB@mindspring.com> <20011217145322.A45210@tisys.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: > On Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 03:46:46AM -0800, Terry Lambert stood up and spoke: [ ... ] > > See above. For it to be useful, it has to be easy to use as the > > default FS. The IBM people recognize this as well, as regards JFS > > usage in Linux (see the IBM white papers for reference). [ ... ] > In the end, whatever gets done, I'd suggest that any unclear implications > of any futher move be investigated into beforehand, because else we could > face some very unpleasant problems in the end... These putative problems are predicated on the idea that the resulting code would be distributed as binaries, and I don't think anyone would do that for fear of the consequences. Remember that other people have other definitions of "useful". For example, this would be an incredibly useful project for someone whose sole purpose was to learn FreeBSD internals, particularly in the VFS and VM areas. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 7:30:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14CC537B41B for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 07:30:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 16Fzil-0003wh-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:30:27 +0100 Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBHEeqE15630 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:40:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mailnull) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Top-level domains Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:40:51 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <9vl05j$f6n$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C1DBE25.B03DC40@mindspring.com> <9vkjth$2sc2$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> <3C1DEF39.DE92F450@mindspring.com> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > In the UK, it was ".co.uk". in fact, most of Europe used X.500 > > > ordering, as in "uk.co.demon" for a very long time. > > > > Care to substantiate that claim? > > The only context in which I've ever heard of those reversed addresses > > was JANET, and the UK does not qualify as "most of Europe". > > The answer to this lies in the lookup middleware and the name > translation. [...] I repeat: Please substantiate your claim that "most of Europe used X.500 ordering, as in 'uk.co.demon' for a very long time". -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 8: 5:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3052D37B420 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0043.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.43] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16G0Gg-0000O3-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:05:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1E17CB.5BD44972@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:05:31 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Top-level domains References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C1DBE25.B03DC40@mindspring.com> <9vkjth$2sc2$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> <3C1DEF39.DE92F450@mindspring.com> <9vl05j$f6n$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christian Weisgerber wrote: > I repeat: Please substantiate your claim that "most of Europe used > X.500 ordering, as in 'uk.co.demon' for a very long time". Do you know where most of Europe keeps its historical records? I know that up until 1991, I had to address most of my email using the X.500 email ordering. Obviously, I can't "prove" that, nor can I "prove" that most of Europe used X.25 links. I think I can prove the existance of "Minitel", though... 8^). Someone already mentioned JANET... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 8: 7:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 051F337B41C for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:07:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 2C18B7573; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:08:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4F1A1D91; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:08:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:08:41 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brad Knowles Cc: James Howard , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 8 Dec 2001, Brad Knowles wrote: :At 5:30 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: : :> How do you get out of the GUI and back to a simple console? : : Pull up a shell window. At the Login: prompt, type '>console', (without the single quotes of course, but you knew that, and this is from memory so I may be misremembering, but if the above isn't quite it find an old Next manual) hit return, and watch what happens. Mac OS X has a lot of NEXTisms in it, the above being one of them. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 8: 8:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tqs.com (mail.tqs.com [205.238.1.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB31137B42C for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:07:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from jaws. (jaws [10.11.1.3]) by mail.tqs.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fBHGClP05695 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from chunky.tqs.com ([10.1.1.15]) by jaws. (NAVGW 2.5.1.6) with SMTP id M2001121708035531436 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:03:55 -0800 Received: by chunky.tqs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:07:56 -0800 Message-ID: <81E1D2E15CCBD311A74700A0C9E1CC8E03C61DDA@chunky.tqs.com> From: "Lytle, Robert TQO" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: I need an UberHacker's help with xauth Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:07:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I thought I'd try this list since some of the most knowledgable people on every known subject hang out :) Seriously, I can't seem to get X forwarding working with SSH, and a number of other mailing lists have given me no answer. It looks like an X problem. No response from the X lists. All this started after I had to switch to DHCP with ATT. It looks like I have more of an X problem than an SSH problem. Here is part of script as it logs "startx" and then I kill it: Script started on Fri Dec 14 18:28:12 2001 xauth: (argv):1: bad display name "c888746-a.attbi.com:0" in "list" command xauth: (argv):1: bad display name "c888746-a.attbi.com:0" in "add" command xauth: (argv):1: bad display name "c888746-a.attbi.com:0" in "remove" command Script done on Fri Dec 14 18:28:40 2001 But here is the output from "xauth list": c888746-a.attbi.com/unix:0 MIT-MAGIC-COOKIE-1 e0cae68d99242..... Notice the /unix is not present in the startx script. I really have no idea how to fix this. Thanks, Rob (sorry for the formatting, I'm stuck with Outlook here at work) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 8:17:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aquinas.techsquare.com (aquinas.techsquare.com [199.190.186.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D313A37B405 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by aquinas.techsquare.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBHGGm955311; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:16:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jamie) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:16:48 -0500 From: Jamie Oulman To: Jamie Bowden Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A breath of fresh air.. Message-ID: <20011217111648.A55170@techsquare.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 08:08:41AM -0800 Organization: TechSquare X-PGP-ID: 1AF3984E Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org you can also boot single user with Command-Apple-S On Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 08:08:41AM -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Sat, 8 Dec 2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > > :At 5:30 AM +0100 on 2001/12/08, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > : > :> How do you get out of the GUI and back to a simple console? > : > : Pull up a shell window. > > At the Login: prompt, type '>console', (without the single quotes of > course, but you knew that, and this is from memory so I may be > misremembering, but if the above isn't quite it find an old Next manual) > hit return, and watch what happens. Mac OS X has a lot of NEXTisms in it, > the above being one of them. > > Jamie Bowden > > -- > "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" > Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" > Iain Bowen > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 8:22:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from merle.it.northwestern.edu (merle.acns.nwu.edu [129.105.16.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE3B137B41C for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from skarab@localhost) by merle.it.northwestern.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15090 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:22:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200112171622.KAA15090@merle.it.northwestern.edu> Subject: Re: UNIX on the Desktop (was: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs?) To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:22:02 -0600 (CST) From: "Hunter J Morris" Reply-To: h-morris@northwestern.edu X-Favorite-Cheese: Corleggy X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In an event to start something equally unrelated to FreeBSD chat, I was curious how many of you often find that "OS religious wars" are often like many other (arguably, of course) futile arguments. In fact, I am so curious that I propose a list of analogies. I can think of a few that I've personally come across lately. ** Note: each of these are listed simply in an order which, for some reason, is how 'people usually relate them'. The order doesn't necessarily imply that one is right or wrong. 1. Dietary restrictions (vegetarian, vegan, raw foodist, etc, etc) -- of course, this should include only secular motivations (or should it?) -- personally, I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian who prefers vegetable rennet cheese and kosher eggs. 2. Boxers vs. briefs -- boxers, although because I'm a college student I occasionally wear briefs because there is simply 'no other clean laundry' 3. Communism vs. socialism -- democracy, I'm American! 4. Sacagawea dollar coin vs. dollar bill -- this can even (arguably) encompass the 'lets get rid of pennies' debate -- I strongly dislike paper money .. and why must the first Native American woman on a US coin have a baby with her? Can we say "gender stereotype"? In the spirit of it all, you'll notice I've listed my own personal preferences (even though they are completely unrelated to any part of this discussion). Moreover, you might find it important to note the fact that I often use contractions in my speech (spoken and written in fact) which may lead many to believe I'm less intelligent than someone who might not. I may not stick to standard English orthography rules either. Finally, to remind you of the original purpose of this particular email (or is it e-mail?), I'll say that I just wanted to see some more analogies, not necessarily a _completely off-topic_ digression into little discussions about each I've listed here. (That was my obligatory 'sentence with an angry tone'). Regards, ~Hunter -- http://www.skarab.com -- My personal website, which is full of controversy .. of course, I doubt it renders correctly on anybody's browser. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 8:31:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1EE37B41B for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:31:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.39] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBHGVc828265; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:31:38 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C1E17CB.5BD44972@mindspring.com> References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C1DBE25.B03DC40@mindspring.com> <9vkjth$2sc2$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> <3C1DEF39.DE92F450@mindspring.com> <9vl05j$f6n$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> <3C1E17CB.5BD44972@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:31:20 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , Christian Weisgerber From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Top-level domains Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:05 AM -0800 on 2001/12/17, Terry Lambert wrote: > Christian Weisgerber wrote: >> I repeat: Please substantiate your claim that "most of Europe used >> X.500 ordering, as in 'uk.co.demon' for a very long time". > > Do you know where most of Europe keeps its historical records? > > I know that up until 1991, I had to address most of my email > using the X.500 email ordering. That could very easily be a result of the JANET gateway(s) that you probably had to use in order to get anything out onto the 'net. I know that there are some people in the Netherlands that were very, very early onto the 'net (quite probably in the very early 80's, before the DNS existed), and they should be able to shed some more light on this issue. > Obviously, I can't "prove" that, nor can I "prove" that most of > Europe used X.25 links. I think I can prove the existance of > "Minitel", though... 8^). Yeah, but we already know the Minitel wasn't part of the Internet proper, and even today just has gateways to it. Find some documentation from sites outside the UK that substantiates your position, and then we might believe you on this matter. Otherwise, it seems that everything you say on this subject will be affected by JANET-coloured glasses, and therefore will not be credible. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 8:33:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BFFC37B41B; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:33:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27765; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:33:33 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217092958.0299fdf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:33:29 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Cc: Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, Poul-Henning Kamp In-Reply-To: <20011217185738.N14500@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:27 AM 12/17/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >> Not true. The FreeBSD Project would be obliged to license the entire >> kernel -- source and binary -- under the GPL. > >That is a complete and utter contradiction of what Stallman said. I >see that you carefully removed his words: > >> The kernel code released under the revised BSD license will continue >> to be under the revised BSD license; it is only the *combination as >> a whole* that will be covered by the GPL--if and when the >> GPL-covered code is included in it. That's right. That means that every FreeBSD CD-ROM must be GPLed. So must the kernel as a whole. This is the trap that Stallman intended to set for those who were either unwary or apathetic about licensing. FreeBSD is in serious trouble unless it expunges ALL GPLed code from the distribution and especially from the kernel. Which is just fine with Stallman, since the very FREEDOM of the BSDs is something he abhors. His agenda is to wipe out commercial software vendors, and for them to have truly free code to use in their own work is contrary to his aims. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 8:56:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CBDD37B41D for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:56:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28084; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:56:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217094324.029b58d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:56:15 -0700 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> <20011216113458.R87600@monorchid.lemis.com> <200112170550.fBH5oea01099@aztec.santafe.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:10 AM 12/17/2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >Serious indeed. But that last part isn't necessarily correct. Unless >the copyright owners being infringed are jerks and willing and able to >threaten FreeBSD owners with serious damages and penalties (which might >not be serious or even non-zero now but could be serious with JFS) so >that they could bully FreeBSD into re-licensing. It'd cause a huge >flap. In practice, it would very likely be sufficient to just remove >the GPL code. This is what Be, Inc. did, and they were not pursued. However, they DID have to remove the GPLed code immediately. >Unfortunately, another thing that happens, in practice, is that nobody >wants to take any preventative steps until the wolf is at the door, >after JFS, etc, are distributed with FreeBSD and legal threats must be >taken seriously. (I don't know why IBM would care, but I wouldn't bet >on their lawyers.) There is a great deal of apathy, alas, in the FreeBSD community about licensing. Many people say, "Oh, it's all free software, right?" or "Everyone has the right to choose their own license" or "We don't dare eject the GPL because we'd tick off the Slashdot crowd" or "We're dependent on their toolchain, so we're stuck." The fact is that it's NOT all free software. GPLed software is not free -- either as in speech or as in beer -- to commercial developers and thus is not truly free at all. And just as commercial software license should not legally be allowed to contain unconscionable terms, neither should non-commercial ones. If a license is unconsionable, confiscatory, and discriminatory, as the GPL is, it should NOT be used. As for the fact that the BSDs are dependent upon a GPLed toolchain, this is a terrible historical accident that arose because of insufficient understanding of the GPL's ramifications and intent. It must be fixed, since ultimately dependency upon code by the FSF -- whose intentions run counter to that of the BSDs -- is an unacceptable risk. Finally, as for ticking off the Slashdot crowd: You know you're doing something novel, good, and probably very right when you stir up that hive of religiously motivated, nonthinking zealots. Let's make sure that the BSDs truly conform to, and embrace, and promote the three elements of the BSD Way: technical excellence, peer review, and true sharing of knowledge and source code with all comers. Letting the GPL (which was written when Stallman rejected the BSD Way due to spite and anger) into the mix allows his venom to poison everything. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 9: 1:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77A3637B419; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:01:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28147; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:00:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217100007.0296c100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:00:53 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , Nils Holland From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Cc: Greg Lehey , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp In-Reply-To: <3C1E045C.2828C1E3@mindspring.com> References: <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <20011217163427.A2885@monorchid.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> <20011217111835.A43375@tisys.org> <3C1DDB26.62969FFB@mindspring.com> <20011217145322.A45210@tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:42 AM 12/17/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >These putative problems are predicated on the idea that the >resulting code would be distributed as binaries, and I don't think >anyone would do that for fear of the consequences. Not true. Distribution in ANY form triggers the GPL. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 9: 5:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from primus.vsservices.com (primus.vsservices.com [63.66.136.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3435E37B417 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:05:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from prime.vsservices.com (conr-adsl-dhcp-26-38.txucom.net [209.34.26.38]) by primus.vsservices.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBHH5dC16570; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:05:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gclarkii@vsservices.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: GB Clark II To: Terry Lambert Subject: The alternate FPUEMU (was: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD))) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:05:42 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011217111835.A43375@tisys.org> <3C1DDB26.62969FFB@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3C1DDB26.62969FFB@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01121711054200.65128@prime.vsservices.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday 17 December 2001 05:46, Terry Lambert wrote: --SNIP-- > > The GNU FPU emulator is much less useful (and much less used) > because of the usefully equivalent BSD version that is the > default, and because of most modern hardware, wigth the exception > of embedded systems, coming with FPU hardware already installed. --SNIP-- Yes, for modern hardware it is of little concern, however, please note that the "GNU" FPU is not actually under the GPL! Back in 1994 I had dug this thing up (it was the at time the default linux emulator) because I wanted to run ghostscript on a 386 and the our regular emulator (and libm) would not run it with faults. That is also why the sun libm was brought in. After a little help from David Greenman to track down a kernel conflict it was imported. It is under a modified license from the copyright holder. Source only distributions of it have NO chance of infecting the BSD code. And even binary distributions are not a problem if the source code is available. GB -- GB Clark II | Roaming FreeBSD Admin gclarkii@VSServices.COM | General Geek CTHULU for President - Why choose the lesser of two evils? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 9: 6:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D12B37B420; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:06:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28222; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:06:26 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217100320.02965920@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:06:20 -0700 To: Nils Holland , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Cc: Greg Lehey , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp In-Reply-To: <20011217145322.A45210@tisys.org> References: <3C1DDB26.62969FFB@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <20011217163427.A2885@monorchid.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> <20011217111835.A43375@tisys.org> <3C1DDB26.62969FFB@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:53 AM 12/17/2001, Nils Holland wrote: >In the end, whatever gets done, I'd suggest that any unclear implications >of any futher move be investigated into beforehand, because else we could >face some very unpleasant problems in the end... I agree. Because there are many parties involved who could potentially be unreasonable (RMS and the FSF in particular, but also IBM), the only reasonable course of action is to avoid ANYTHING that is GPLed and stick to the one form of open source licensing that (a) has been tested in court; (b) is short, clear, and unambiguous; and (c) is consistent with the BSD Way. This means only "truly free" licensing, as embodied in the BSD and MIT X licenses and kin. Only by sticking to such licenses will we ever know where we truly stand. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 9:40:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (66-188-92-95.mad.wi.charter.com [66.188.92.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1D0837B41B for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:40:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBHHdJj86694; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:39:19 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:39:19 -0600 (CST) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <200112171739.fBHHdJj86694@prism.flugsvamp.com> To: brett@lariat.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Cc: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >At 01:27 AM 12/17/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> Not true. The FreeBSD Project would be obliged to license the entire >>> kernel -- source and binary -- under the GPL. >> >>That is a complete and utter contradiction of what Stallman said. I >>see that you carefully removed his words: >> >>> The kernel code released under the revised BSD license will continue >>> to be under the revised BSD license; it is only the *combination as >>> a whole* that will be covered by the GPL--if and when the >>> GPL-covered code is included in it. > >That's right. That means that every FreeBSD CD-ROM must be GPLed. >So must the kernel as a whole. It seems that what you are saying here is that since the FreeBSD cd-rom contains some GPL code in source form, instantly, everything else on the cdrom also falls under the GPL license. Sorry, this is wrong, and just ridiculous. The GPL only comes into play if the resultant product (kernel BINARY) contains GPL code. The product here is the program, not the cd-rom. AFAIK, FreeBSD does NOT ship any GENERIC kernel containing GPL'd bits. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 9:47:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9358B37B41A for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBHHkuR16838; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:46:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <005a01c18722$d2d5a860$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , "FreeBSD Chat" References: <20011216112759.U16958-100000@localhost> <002f01c1866e$1e4d9510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DB7EB.9232204A@mindspring.com> <001101c186dd$5ab94430$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DCDAC.CEA3DEAF@mindspring.com> <003301c186eb$bf1e8710$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DE3EB.8AB3C4E0@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: UNIX on the Desktop (was: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs?) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:46:56 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > Credentials are incredibly useful for keeping > single users from being able to aim guns at > their feet, without extraordinary effort. Both cannot simultaneously exist. To have multiple credentials, you must have multiple user identities, and this requires multiuser awareness. If a single user does not have access to all credentials on a system, it is a multiuser system. > I would argue that the inability to delete > the active Windows swap file is a locking > issue on the order of credential based locking, > since both control ability of the user to > manipulate a resource, and which resources > are regarded as system vs. user. The swap file cannot be deleted because it is in use (at least on my NT system); there are no credentials that permit you to delete files that are in use, just as there are no credentials that allow you to write outside the bounds of a file. > No, it requires more effort to turn it off. Only if it is on by default, but no system is initially configured with diminished credentials, since it would be impossible to modify or maintain it if it were. > Have you tried browsing to your C:\windows\system > directory in Explorer lately? There is no such directory on my machine. > You have to explicitly OK the navigation, as > these are protected directories. That is a protection applied to all users, not one based on credentials. > Since users of the OS out number programmers > 100,000 to 1, then if something would save 1 > hour of user time on average, it's worth > 100,000 programmer hours to make happen. If only Java programmers could understand that. > It's like the Steve Jobs argument about cutting > 30 seconds off the Macintosh boot time: sell > 1,000,000 machines, and for evey 30 seconds > you cut off the boot time, you've saved an > entire human life. That's the sort of reasoning I'd expect from Steve Jobs. If I follow the same reasoning, then every time a Mac crashes, three dozen people are killed. > You are not representative of someone qualified > to judge whether or not I am representative. No special qualifications are required, only the ability to distinguish differences. > I felt compelled because you were obvious > ignoring it. No, you explained it in the hope that you would be able to damage my credibility by creating the impression that you know more than I do about the topic. You've done that a number of times, with myself and with many others with whom you hold discussions, so it is easy to spot. > It's nice to know from your response that it > wasn't ignorance, but the inconvenince of the > facts to your argument, which caused that > omission. Those facts were not relevant to my argument. > You are not representative. Actually I am, much more so than most geeks. In part this is because I actually use my computer for productive work that has nothing to do with IT. > It's only painful when doing things at an > enterprise level. You did not initially apply any qualifications to your statement. > If you are going to delete text and replace > it with an ellipsis, at least make it clear that > that is what you are doing, by placing > the ellipsis in brackets, OK. Thanks. I follow CMS rules, rather than MLA rules, for the use of ellipses, mainly for the sake of brevity. > Your opinion, of course. With respect to the sacred mission, yes. However, with respect to modification of the OS, no. And I expect that the separation will only become greater over time. > Almost without exception, companies which have > remained in any market and active have sold > up market as their products matured, in order > to maintain both their profit margin, and their > rate of increase. One glaring exception being, of course, Apple. > There are several other books which show the > disasterous effects on comapnies unwilling to > change their margin and/or profit model ... One good example is Apple. > Frankly, Microsoft has leveraged its monopoly > position on the desktop ... in order to force > what is probably premature entry into the server > market on its part ... If its entry is premature, it will fail in its efforts. I don't think that Microsoft knows enough about the server market to really succeed within it, but if it can find customers that are at least as naïve as it is--and that is certainly possible with the continuing expansion of the server market--it may be able to sell lots of servers, anyway. > Eventually, I expect that Microsoft will spin= > off or simply "decide to abandon" the desktop > market. Not any time in the foreseeable future. Virtually all the revenue of Microsoft comes from the desktop. Additionally, Microsoft has consistently demonstrated that it only really understands desktops, not servers. Revenue growth would have to come more from the server sector, since Microsoft has locked up the desktop OS domain and hasn't produced any killer apps in years, but that doesn't mean that Microsoft will succeed in this. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 9:59:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C686137B41B for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:59:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0375.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.120] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16G22y-0000ZM-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:59:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1E3281.5A0E3CA1@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:59:29 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Top-level domains References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C1DBE25.B03DC40@mindspring.com> <9vkjth$2sc2$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> <3C1DEF39.DE92F450@mindspring.com> <9vl05j$f6n$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> <3C1E17CB.5BD44972@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: [ ... ] > I know that there are some people in the Netherlands that were > very, very early onto the 'net (quite probably in the very early > 80's, before the DNS existed), and they should be able to shed some > more light on this issue. Talking to people who were actually there would be a good idea. [ ... ] Here are some good historical references to X.400 mail, OSI, and Europe: http://www.isi.salford.ac.uk/staff/dwc/Version.Web/Chapter.1/Chapter1.htm (1994 D. Chadwick) http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1160.txt (1990 Vinton Cerf) http://www.faqs.org/faqs/mail/setup/unix/part1/ (1991-1998 Chris Lewis) Here are some other interesting historical references: http://www.fokus.gmd.de/step/internet/intro2.pdf http://standards.edna.edu.au/reports/scopeattb.pdf http://www.w3.org/People/howcome/p/telektronikk-4-93/Dybvik_P_E.html http://www.house.gov/science/landweber_9-10.html http://www.wia.org/ISOC/itu_mission.htm http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/imr/imr9306.txt http://www.ifi.uio.no/~oleha/Publications/bok.b.html http://www.traxon.de/brochures/icm_5.1_dec00.pdf http://www.infosociety.gr/infosoc/policies/tele/docs/testa.pdf Ah... here is a canonical reference to the use of X.400 and OSI, in European email systems: http://www.hypermail.org/rfcs/rfc1506.html (1993 J. Houttuin, Reseaux Associes pour la Recherche Europeenne Secretariat) Obviously, you should know how to use search engines, too, if you need more references. As an incredibly amusing aside, this historical document talks about X.400 in a really derogatory fashion (it shows the US/Europe battle lines being drawn, but it also has a cute section: http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/telecom-archives/archives/back.issues/1992.volume.12/vol12.iss801-850 "Senator Albert Gore from Tennesee has repeatedly sponsored legislation that will eventually turn the major research networks sponsored by the U.S. government into a "National Data Highway System". I expect that this will be a cornerstone in a Clinton/Gore industrial policy program. Once the "acceptable use policy" restrictions are lifted from the NREN backbone, RFC822 mail will truly be the lingua franca of public and private electronic mail systems from FIDOnet to UUCP mail." Unfortunately, there aren't a hell of a lot of records from 1988 and 1989, which is when I was tasked with implementing serial communications software for use in accessing X.400 email systems, and network terminal GOSIP support for the U.S. OSI initiative utilizing Intel "OpenNet" protocol stacks on Prime, Unisys, SCO, and other systems (anyone else remember NVT or FTAM?). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 10:20:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D8AF37B405 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0375.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.120] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16G2MU-00005J-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:19:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1E373B.C85F09D8@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:19:39 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: "f.johan.beisser" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: UNIX on the Desktop (was: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs?) References: <20011216112759.U16958-100000@localhost> <002f01c1866e$1e4d9510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DB7EB.9232204A@mindspring.com> <001101c186dd$5ab94430$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DCDAC.CEA3DEAF@mindspring.com> <003301c186eb$bf1e8710$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DE3EB.8AB3C4E0@mindspring.com> <005a01c18722$d2d5a860$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > Credentials are incredibly useful for keeping > > single users from being able to aim guns at > > their feet, without extraordinary effort. > = > Both cannot simultaneously exist. To have multiple credentials, you mu= st > have multiple user identities, and this requires multiuser awareness. = If a > single user does not have access to all credentials on a system, it is = a > multiuser system. Then I guess Windows, as of the 95B distribution, is a "multiuser system". I personally wouldn't make that distinction, though. > The swap file cannot be deleted because it is in use (at least on my NT= > system); there are no credentials that permit you to delete files that = are > in use, just as there are no credentials that allow you to write outsid= e the > bounds of a file. Sure there are. It's called a "level 3 followed by level 0 volume lock".= > > No, it requires more effort to turn it off. > = > Only if it is on by default, but no system is initially configured with= > diminished credentials, since it would be impossible to modify or maint= ain > it if it were. Do you actually run 2000/NT, or have you just heard of them? > > You have to explicitly OK the navigation, as > > these are protected directories. > = > That is a protection applied to all users, not one based on credentials= =2E No, because the OS doesn't have a problem going there, and neither do install programs. Just because the enforcement is in the tools doesn't make it any less an enforecment. You have priviledged and unpriviledged programs, and the priviledge bit is, defacto, a credential. > > It's like the Steve Jobs argument about cutting > > 30 seconds off the Macintosh boot time: sell > > 1,000,000 machines, and for evey 30 seconds > > you cut off the boot time, you've saved an > > entire human life. > = > That's the sort of reasoning I'd expect from Steve Jobs. If I follow t= he > same reasoning, then every time a Mac crashes, three dozen people are > killed. I don't see your problem? > > I felt compelled because you were obvious > > ignoring it. > = > No, you explained it in the hope that you would be able to damage my > credibility by creating the impression that you know more than I do abo= ut > the topic. You've done that a number of times, with myself and with ma= ny > others with whom you hold discussions, so it is easy to spot. You are too precious a troll... > > It's nice to know from your response that it > > wasn't ignorance, but the inconvenince of the > > facts to your argument, which caused that > > omission. > = > Those facts were not relevant to my argument. Only because you continually redefine your argument... > > It's only painful when doing things at an > > enterprise level. > = > You did not initially apply any qualifications to your statement. I did, in the part you carefully omitted to quote. I will quote it for you again: ] > > The ability to perform "point-and-click" for ] > > trivial administrative tasks (such as minimal ] > > firewall installation, or minimal mail server ] > > configuration) far, far outweighs "raw power" ] > > in most cases. ] > = ] > Point-and-click gets very tiring very quickly when you have to do a l= ot of ] > system administration, especially at a distance. Just modifying a te= xt file ] > can be a lot faster and simpler. ] = ] Sure. That's what scripting languages are for. Most people don't ] need to do that sort of thing, though, for a non-enterprise installatio= n, ] and even if they do, the number of people they have to support is small= ] enough that they can "live with the pain" of GUI administration. ] = ] And since small businesses grow up to be big businesses, a GUI ] administration facility is a requisite bridge that make market ] penetration significantly easier. Note the intentional use of the phrase "Most people". You cut out the first two paragraphs of that statement and substitutes an ellipsis, without indicating that it was your ellipsis, and not mine. > > Almost without exception, companies which have > > remained in any market and active have sold > > up market as their products matured, in order > > to maintain both their profit margin, and their > > rate of increase. > = > One glaring exception being, of course, Apple. Apple is not an exception. > > There are several other books which show the > > disasterous effects on comapnies unwilling to > > change their margin and/or profit model ... > = > One good example is Apple. No. Apple did not attempt to enter a new market with an old model, and expect the same results as the old market. Novell and WoolCo (the short-lived "discount" branch of Woolworths) are much better examples. Apple is a horse of a different wheelbase. > > Frankly, Microsoft has leveraged its monopoly > > position on the desktop ... in order to force > > what is probably premature entry into the server > > market on its part ... > = > If its entry is premature, it will fail in its efforts. I don't think = that > Microsoft knows enough about the server market to really succeed within= it, > but if it can find customers that are at least as na=EFve as it is--and= that > is certainly possible with the continuing expansion of the server marke= t--it > may be able to sell lots of servers, anyway. That's incorrect. If you can build clients that operate in a damaged way for lack of Microsoft servers, and everyone has to buy Microsoft clients (because of many reasons, including the negative advocacy of people like you any time a potential alternative is discussed), then Microsoft will be able to displace servers in proportion to their clients (increasing) non-operability without them. > = > > Eventually, I expect that Microsoft will spin=3D > > off or simply "decide to abandon" the desktop > > market. > = > Not any time in the foreseeable future. Virtually all the revenue of > Microsoft comes from the desktop. Additionally, Microsoft has consiste= ntly > demonstrated that it only really understands desktops, not servers. Luckily, we have a number of States Attorneys General who don't care about continuing that profit model... > Revenue growth would have to come more from the server sector, since > Microsoft has locked up the desktop OS domain and hasn't produced any k= iller > apps in years, but that doesn't mean that Microsoft will succeed in thi= s. See previous post. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 10:43:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA5D37BD3F for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:34:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C66CB7573; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:34:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3AE91D91; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:34:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:34:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: :On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: : :> > The entire article was copied. :> > :> > "The greater the amount of copyrighted work used, the less likely that a :> > court will characterize the use as fair. The use of an entire copyright :> > work is almost never fair." (The AP Stylebook and Libel Manual, 1992.) :> :> The entire paper was not. : :I must mention that individual articles for newspapers (and from :magazines) do have value by themselves. Case law with respect to fair use is very specific that a single artice in full from a magazine or newspaper is fair use. I just watched this flamewar a month ago on a list with people who are lawyers in real life. Copyright law is complicated and ugly, but they all agreed on this point. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 10:44: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AA4B37BFE4; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:39:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id F1A3B7573; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAFB51D91; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:40:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:40:52 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Terry Lambert Cc: scanner@jurai.net, Greg Lehey , Brad Knowles , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <3C1AF03B.571C4EB6@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: :scanner@jurai.net wrote: :[ ... porting JFS for benchmark reasons ... ] :> However i'm with brad it would be better :> considering the nature of the GPL on JFS, to get co-operation from :> SGI. Maybe they would consider another point of view in licensing their :> XFS to the BSD folks. Then again maybe not. :When I talked to their Chief Scientist who had made the GPL'ing :decision about relicensing the code, and the fact that most of :the best academic FS hackers are in the BSD camp, and the fact :that you would not be able to take changes to the GPL'ed version :of the FS (derivative works of GPL'ed code), and reintegrated :them into IRIX, he was rather intractable. : :Now that SGI has virtually collapsed, and could use both the :press and free profressional help with their code, they might :have changed their tune, but don't bet on it. Last time I had :the discussions, it was very clear that they had The Religion. SGI is quietly abandoning The Religion as well. There's no money in commodity markets, and while they still offer Linux products, those offerings are getting fewer. Personally, and I've said here before, I love my SGIs. Some of the greatest hardware in existance, and a damn fine Unix on top as well, even if it is a SysV derivative. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 10:48:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BB1837C0E7 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 957B914C58; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:46:45 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: h-morris@northwestern.edu Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: UNIX on the Desktop (was: Re: Why no Indians and Arabs?) References: <200112171622.KAA15090@merle.it.northwestern.edu> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Dec 2001 19:46:44 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200112171622.KAA15090@merle.it.northwestern.edu> Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Hunter J Morris" writes: > 3. Communism vs. socialism -- democracy, I'm American! I'm curious - what does being American have to do with democracy? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 11:17:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A422C37B41A for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:17:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.39] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBHJGwi01955; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:16:58 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C1E3281.5A0E3CA1@mindspring.com> References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C1DBE25.B03DC40@mindspring.com> <9vkjth$2sc2$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> <3C1DEF39.DE92F450@mindspring.com> <9vl05j$f6n$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> <3C1E17CB.5BD44972@mindspring.com> <3C1E3281.5A0E3CA1@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:14:28 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Top-level domains Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:59 AM -0800 on 2001/12/17, Terry Lambert wrote: > Talking to people who were actually there would be a good idea. Remember -- we want people who were there in the early to mid 1980's, back when the DNS was first invented and implemented. > Here are some good historical references to X.400 mail, OSI, and > Europe: > > http://www.isi.salford.ac.uk/staff/dwc/Version.Web/Chapter.1/Chapter1.htm > (1994 D. Chadwick) > > http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1160.txt > (1990 Vinton Cerf) I haven't read all these documents yet, but all they show is that X.400 and X.500 was in limited use in the 1990's. Yet RFC 920 "Domain Requirements" (October 1984, superceded by RFCs 1034 and 1034 in November of 1987) laid out the first recognized domain names, as they had originally been conceived in RFC 881 (November of 1983). So, you're about five years late here. > http://www.faqs.org/faqs/mail/setup/unix/part1/ > (1991-1998 Chris Lewis) Absolutely nothing of interest here. At least, not to this discussion. Please keep in mind that I was also a reviewer of _sendmail_, 2nd edition, and that I've been using Internet e-mail (albeit primarily through UUCP, until later when we joined the full ARPAnet via a 56k line) since I started school in the fall of 1984 at the University of Oklahoma, and that it was in the spring of 1984 that Mike O'Dell left OU to help form what became Uunet. Also note that I was materially involved in the X.400/X.500 implementation projects for the Defense Information Systems Agency in the early 90's, and that we were also responsible for handling X.400/X.500 implementations for the Office of the Secretary of Defense, and all their gateways to the various X.400/X.500 systems run by the Services. > Here are some other interesting historical references: > > http://www.fokus.gmd.de/step/internet/intro2.pdf > http://standards.edna.edu.au/reports/scopeattb.pdf > http://www.w3.org/People/howcome/p/telektronikk-4-93/Dybvik_P_E.html > http://www.house.gov/science/landweber_9-10.html > http://www.wia.org/ISOC/itu_mission.htm > http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/imr/imr9306.txt > http://www.ifi.uio.no/~oleha/Publications/bok.b.html > http://www.traxon.de/brochures/icm_5.1_dec00.pdf > http://www.infosociety.gr/infosoc/policies/tele/docs/testa.pdf I'll take a look at these, but if they're not dated in at least the mid 1980's, then they are too recent to be relevant to the discussion in question. > Ah... here is a canonical reference to the use of X.400 and OSI, > in European email systems: > > http://www.hypermail.org/rfcs/rfc1506.html > (1993 J. Houttuin, Reseaux Associes pour la Recherche Europeenne Secretariat) Ye Ghods. Now we're talking the mid 1990's -- that's *WAY* too late. We need data from roughly the same time that RFCs 881 & 920 were published, not ones as new as these. > Obviously, you should know how to use search engines, too, if > you need more references. Yeah, I also note that a lot of the data we're going to want for this discussion will not be available online -- most people don't keep public archives of mailing lists or USENET newsgroups that are fifteen or twenty years old. > As an incredibly amusing aside, this historical document talks > about X.400 in a really derogatory fashion (it shows the US/Europe > battle lines being drawn, but it also has a cute section: > > >http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/telecom-archives/archives/back.issues/1992.volume.12/vol12.iss801-850 > > "Senator Albert Gore from Tennesee has repeatedly sponsored > legislation that will eventually turn the major research > networks sponsored by the U.S. government into a "National > Data Highway System". I expect that this will be a > cornerstone in a Clinton/Gore industrial policy program. > Once the "acceptable use policy" restrictions are lifted > from the NREN backbone, RFC822 mail will truly be the > lingua franca of public and private electronic mail systems > from FIDOnet to UUCP mail." Yeah, and I know of DOD project managers that were saying equally derogatory things about X.400/X.500 a lot earlier than this. Indeed, I believe that I am personally acquainted with the project officer that ended up being a key player in putting the final nails in the OSI/GOSIP coffin. I haven't heard from him in many years, but he had some pretty wild stories to tell about some of the meetings that he'd been at. > Unfortunately, there aren't a hell of a lot of records from 1988 > and 1989, which is when I was tasked with implementing serial > communications software for use in accessing X.400 email systems, > and network terminal GOSIP support for the U.S. OSI initiative > utilizing Intel "OpenNet" protocol stacks on Prime, Unisys, SCO, > and other systems (anyone else remember NVT or FTAM?). Yup, I remember FTAM. That's just one of many X.400/X.500/OSI memories that I really don't ever want to dredge up again. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 11:19:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23A0637B405; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:19:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-309.wobline.de [212.68.71.30]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBHJIo719651; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:18:53 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBHJJVX18161; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:19:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBHJICZ48197; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:18:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:18:06 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Message-ID: <20011217201806.A48114@tisys.org> References: <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> <20011217185738.N14500@monorchid.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217092958.0299fdf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217092958.0299fdf0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 09:33:29AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD jodie.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 8:06PM up 13:26, 2 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.02, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 09:33:29AM -0700, Brett Glass stood up and spoke: > > FreeBSD is in serious trouble unless it expunges ALL GPLed code from > the distribution and especially from the kernel. Well, I don't like the GPL any more than you do and I see the problems that have been described. But, at this point, I guess totally removing (and replacing) all GPL code from the *entire* distribution is impossible. Do you have, for example, any suggestions with what we should replace GCC *without* breaking anything (current FreeBSD sources, as well as our stuff in the ports collection?) I guess getting rid of all GPL stuff in the entire distribution is not neccessary - I don't see any potential threat by us shipping GCC for example (though I don't know of some GPL purist couldn't come up with a reason why just shipping GCC at some point or another puts our entire system under the GPL...). However, I think that the kernel is of more danger here, because any GPL code would have to be linked directly into it, thus potentially putting it under the GPL as a whole (just including gcc into our distribution set probably doesn't have any such implications for our system). However, generally, I would agree that we should keep especially the kernel GPL free, and in the rest of the system try to minimize GPL code as much as possible. Just my $.02 Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 11:27:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2B8E37B41B for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-309.wobline.de [212.68.71.30]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBHJQs720478; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:26:58 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBHJS2X18176; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:28:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBHJQl348213; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:26:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:26:40 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Brett Glass Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Message-ID: <20011217202640.B48114@tisys.org> References: <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217094324.029b58d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217094324.029b58d0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 09:56:15AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD jodie.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 8:06PM up 13:26, 2 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.02, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 09:56:15AM -0700, Brett Glass stood up and spoke: > > The fact is that it's NOT all free software. The GPL is something I have midunderstood for a long time. Basically, as it seems to me, it took restrictions away from one side and simpyl put them on the other side instead. So the GPL does contain the same ammount of restrictions as other (commercial) licenses, only the restrictions were shuffled around a bit. Still, the GPL doesn't become a better license that way, and what it has to do with "free" is still something I don't understand. After all, if we took a prisoner from his cell and let him go wherever he wanted but kept him under full-time surveilance, we would not really consider him much more free (in the sense of the real meaning of "free") as before. However, that's exactly the way the GPL works, according to my understanding. > As for the fact that the BSDs are dependent upon a GPLed toolchain, this > is a terrible historical accident that arose because of insufficient > understanding of the GPL's ramifications and intent. First of all, I guess there's still some "insufficient understanding" of the GPL today. Something should be done about this. Then, I don't think that we can remove the GPLed tools from FreeBSD. If we did this, we would probably face a year of a total standstill of the project - the question is if that's worth it. It's definately worth, though, to have a look how much the current use of GPLed code currently puts us at risk, and then doing something about those parts that are really unbearable. Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 11:30:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A13E837B419 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-309.wobline.de [212.68.71.30]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBHJU2720754; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:30:08 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBHJVIX18191; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:31:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBHJUHF48226; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:30:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:30:17 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: GB Clark II Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The alternate FPUEMU (was: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD))) Message-ID: <20011217203017.C48114@tisys.org> References: <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011217111835.A43375@tisys.org> <3C1DDB26.62969FFB@mindspring.com> <01121711054200.65128@prime.vsservices.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <01121711054200.65128@prime.vsservices.com>; from gclarkii@vsservices.com on Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 11:05:42AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD jodie.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 8:06PM up 13:26, 2 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.02, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 11:05:42AM -0600, GB Clark II stood up and spoke: > > Yes, for modern hardware it is of little concern, however, > please note that the "GNU" FPU is not actually under the GPL! Sorry, when I stated the example with the GNU FPU emulator I was not really aware of this fact. Anyway, it even makes me glad that things are like that and that the code is not genuine GPL code. As a side note, I guess I never really used it on one of my machines, though ;-) Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 11:31:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FBED37B417; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:31:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 14B0F14C53; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:31:09 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Holidays From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Dec 2001 20:31:08 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm leaving tomorrow for a week's offline R&R. I'll be back a few days after Christmas. Though sickness and other obligations the past few weeks have kept me from being as active as I'd have wished, I mean to make a strong comeback on all fronts in 2002 :) Merry Christmas and a happy New Year! DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 13:24:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5595937B41A for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:24:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50ACBD36; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:24:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24562; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:24:08 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBHLOuA29753; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:24:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <200112171739.fBHHdJj86694@prism.flugsvamp.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 17 Dec 2001 13:24:56 -0800 In-Reply-To: <200112171739.fBHHdJj86694@prism.flugsvamp.com> Message-ID: <293d2935g7.d29@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 41 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >That's right. That means that every FreeBSD CD-ROM must be GPLed. > >So must the kernel as a whole. > > It seems that what you are saying here is that since the FreeBSD > cd-rom contains some GPL code in source form, instantly, everything > else on the cdrom also falls under the GPL license. Close enough, I suppose. But, if the contamination occurs, it really just means that the FreeBSD distributors are infringing copyrights. It's hard to predict what the impact of that would be, if anything. I'm not sure if I agree, and think it may come down to the fact that the common understanding of the GPL might be as important as the words. Certainly in the case of gcc, binutils, etc., their is probably an implied license to distribute or at least an understanding that it falls into the GPL's "mere aggregation" clause, and so the contamination is not viral. > Sorry, this is wrong, and just ridiculous. The GPL only comes into > play if the resultant product (kernel BINARY) contains GPL code. The > product here is the program, not the cd-rom. AFAIK, FreeBSD does NOT > ship any GENERIC kernel containing GPL'd bits. It might be wrong, but it's not ridiculous. There IS a copyrightable, licensable "work" which is the CD-ROM (or even a collection of FreeBSD OS files on a FTP site). Since that work contains GPL code, one must interpret the GPL to determine whether use of the GPL code is allowed without putting the whole work under the GPL. Note that the GPL broadly defines "Program" as anything and everything the GPL is applied to. As I said above, most people interpret the GPL by drawing a line at staticly-linked dynamically-linked executables and completely ignore non-code material. But some people have trouble finding clear language to risk assuming that this GPL clause is null and void in their case: But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 14: 0: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B657537B41C for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBHLrhR17311; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:53:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <000601c18745$4c343e70$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Brad Knowles" Cc: References: <20011216044542.Y86103-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C1DBE25.B03DC40@mindspring.com> <9vkjth$2sc2$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> <3C1DEF39.DE92F450@mindspring.com> <9vl05j$f6n$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> <3C1E17CB.5BD44972@mindspring.com> <3C1E3281.5A0E3CA1@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Top-level domains Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:53:43 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad writes: > ... most people don't keep public archives of > mailing lists or USENET newsgroups that are > fifteen or twenty years old. FWIW, Google now claims to have USENET archives going back to 1981, for some newsgroups. They obtained that by acquiring archived data from various organizations that had very old archives. Thus far the data available for those years seems to be pretty sparse, however. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 14: 5:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailbag.com (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D95237B416 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:05:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from goldmind (msn-12-133.dial.binc.net [64.73.6.164]) by mailbag.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id fBHM52Y07996 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:05:02 -0600 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:05:02 -0600 Message-Id: <200112172205.fBHM52Y07996@mailbag.com> From: "CyberKnight Int'l corp." 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    To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 14: 5:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (66-188-92-95.mad.wi.charter.com [66.188.92.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36EF637B417 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:05:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBHM4BP96187; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:04:11 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:04:11 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Message-ID: <20011217160411.G377@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200112171739.fBHHdJj86694@prism.flugsvamp.com> <293d2935g7.d29@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <293d2935g7.d29@localhost.localdomain> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 01:24:56PM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > > >That's right. That means that every FreeBSD CD-ROM must be GPLed. > > >So must the kernel as a whole. > > > > It seems that what you are saying here is that since the FreeBSD > > cd-rom contains some GPL code in source form, instantly, everything > > else on the cdrom also falls under the GPL license. > > Close enough, I suppose. But, if the contamination occurs, it really > just means that the FreeBSD distributors are infringing copyrights. > It's hard to predict what the impact of that would be, if anything. > > I'm not sure if I agree, and think it may come down to the fact that > the common understanding of the GPL might be as important as the words. > Certainly in the case of gcc, binutils, etc., their is probably an > implied license to distribute or at least an understanding that it > falls into the GPL's "mere aggregation" clause, and so the > contamination is not viral. > > > Sorry, this is wrong, and just ridiculous. The GPL only comes into > > play if the resultant product (kernel BINARY) contains GPL code. The > > product here is the program, not the cd-rom. AFAIK, FreeBSD does NOT > > ship any GENERIC kernel containing GPL'd bits. > > It might be wrong, but it's not ridiculous. There IS a copyrightable, > licensable "work" which is the CD-ROM (or even a collection of FreeBSD > OS files on a FTP site). Since that work contains GPL code, one must > interpret the GPL to determine whether use of the GPL code is allowed > without putting the whole work under the GPL. Note that the GPL broadly > defines "Program" as anything and everything the GPL is applied to. No, I'm sorry, this is still ridiculous. By this same logic, if I was a hardware vendor and decided to bundle a RedHat 7.2 CD among the estra software packages, you would have me extend the GPL to include everything, including the Microsoft Windows CD. I suppose that you can argue about the interpretation of the word "based" in the license; as opposed to saying "included". I believe the above interpretation is stretching the realm of the absurd. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 14:30:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668B237B405 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:30:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34C7C001; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:30:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14372; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:30:23 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBHMVF029797; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:31:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <20011217163427.A2885@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C1DEA69.93892A66@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 17 Dec 2001 14:31:15 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C1DEA69.93892A66@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 32 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > There are tons of other examples, but one is enough. The license can > not be changed without the consent of all the authors. It CAN be changed by the copyright owners, regardless of the authors. Based on little evidence, copyrights seem to be claimed by just a few organizations (including U. of CA), but I wonder if many of these claims are bogus and copyright is mostly in the hands of hundreds of authors, making licensing change impractical. (Though legal class-actions often treat individuals unfairly in favor of the group.) > Technically, it is an aggregate license in that case. You keep mentioning that license. Care to explain? I only got "collective work" and "compilation" out of 17 USC. And the OSKit "aggregate license" that you mentioned (found here ? http://www.cs.utah.edu/flux/oskit/html/oskit-wwwch47.html ) is no license at all; they just say that various parts have various licenses and ignore the issue of aggregating it in any manner. > The way you would have to get around this is to insist on a relinking > of the kernel by the user, in that case, rather than the use of modules, > should the modules be derived from the original BSDL'ed code. This > would work, if we took special care to ensure the aggregate license > only applied to the binaries on the distribution, and that the sources > were distributed to comply with the aggregate license, bute were not, > themselves subject to that license. Maybe so, but you also have to convince the GPLer that you're not just "working around" his intent to prevent such use of his code with non-GPL code in the license you have accepted. Or live with the (low?) risk. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 15: 9:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shark.ifa.hawaii.edu (shark.IfA.Hawaii.Edu [128.171.162.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEB7237B405 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:09:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (yamada@localhost) by shark.ifa.hawaii.edu (8.11.6/8.11.4) with ESMTP id fBHN7tl32963; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:08:02 -1000 (HST) (envelope-from yamada@ifa.hawaii.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: shark.ifa.hawaii.edu: yamada owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:07:54 -1000 (HST) From: "Hubert T. Yamada" Reply-To: "Hubert T. Yamada" To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who writes the esoteric scientific Unix apps? In-Reply-To: <20011214170714.A13736@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: <20011217124941.K32804-100000@shark.ifa.hawaii.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 14 Dec 2001, j mckitrick wrote: > We hear so often that high-end Unix worstations are used for advanced > scientific applications. The biggest of the big iron usually goes to > weather/finance forecasting and especially nuclear research. > > Who writes these apps? Specialized software companies or in-house > developers? Are they batch-based, command line apps or GUI driven? In astronomy, most of the data reduction / analysis tools are written by the astronomers and grad students. The support work is sometimes given to software people (including electrical engineers). Generally, the further an application is from publishable results, the more likely it is that some form of software specialist will do it. Data reduction packages tend to be command line driven. These are usually used for the lighter work. The heavier work tends to be automated or semi-automated. GUI's are not rare, but they are not really common. Often, software development is done using a data reduction package like IDL/PvWave (commercial) or IRAF (developed at NOAO and distributed for free). These packages generally let the user develop extensions in C and FORTRAN. Data reduction is generally pretty simple, and generally consists of a few simple steps that have to be carried out on a large amount of data. This makes it easy to automate a lot of it, though most data reduction requires a certain amount of human intervention. It's easy to automate most of the process, but the borderline situations take a lot more effort. Hubert -- Hubert Yamada, University of Hawaii, Institute for Astronomy phone: (808)956-6648 e-mail: yamada@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu OR yamada@hawaii.edu WWW: http://ccd.ifa.hawaii.edu/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 15:14:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CE0B37B41D for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:14:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D094EC015; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29345; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:14:11 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBHNF2s29835; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:15:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Jamie Bowden Cc: "Jeremy C. Reed" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) References: From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 17 Dec 2001 15:15:01 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 38 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden writes: > Case law with respect to fair use is very specific that a single artice > in full from a magazine or newspaper is fair use. I just watched this > flamewar a month ago on a list with people who are lawyers in real life. > Copyright law is complicated and ugly, but they all agreed on this point. From the http://www.freerepublic.com : Free Republic has been enjoined from allowing users to post full text articles from the Los Angeles Times (LAT) and Washington Post (WP). The site claims to be non-commercial and makes no profit but can't get non-profit status because of the accompanying political activity restrictions. (One wonders how there can be so many socialist-lite non-profit orgs.) In any case, the fact that they are legaly a for-profit corporation had only a small part in the decision. From the Judgement ("Case Summary"): OUTCOME: Defendants failed to demonstrate that it was necessary to copy, verbatim, plaintiffs' articles to enable website users to criticize the manner in which the media covered current events. Verbatim posting of plaintiffs' articles was more than was necessary to further defendants' critical purpose. Also: The mere fact that a use is commercial does not "give rise to a presumption of unfairness." Lots of other stuff about impact ($, etc) to copyright owners, etc. A great page to waste time on (which I won't post in full, even though I suppose it is in the public domain): http://www.freerepublic.com/judgment.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 15:38:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ECB337B41E for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:38:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16G7Ke-0004ph-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:38:04 -0800 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:38:04 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Jamie Bowden wrote: > :> The entire paper was not. > : > :I must mention that individual articles for newspapers (and from > :magazines) do have value by themselves. > > Case law with respect to fair use is very specific that a single artice > in full from a magazine or newspaper is fair use. I just watched this You must have missed the previous emails about this. There are guidelines that help define "fair use". > flamewar a month ago on a list with people who are lawyers in real life. > Copyright law is complicated and ugly, but they all agreed on this point. I guess these lawyers don't know about copyrights and fair use. Or this is misunderstood. Again: I don't know of any credible publishing company that republishes others' articles without permission. Many freelancers resell their article numerous times. In fact, some have been known to resell the rights to individual articles well over fifty times each. If someone can simply reuse an article without permission, then why would someone ever purchase the rights? As a freelancer and as an editor, I have worked with well over 100 article contracts. Many times, I have purchased 120 exclusive first publication rights for internet-based publishing; and I have purchased first time print media rights for just North America. In addition, I have received rights to republish content that had previously published. Usually, freelancers don't sell all the rights for their articles, but only for a certain time period or for a certain medium. Usually, they want to retain their ability to resell an article over and over again. (This does apply to many newspaper articles also.) Again, why would anyone even sell "*first* rights", if their article could be reused later without any permission? I agree in some situations it is okay to photocopy (or republish) newspaper articles without permission; for example, to help teach a class. Also at a college I coached basketball at, at the end of the season we made a photocopied compilation of the newspaper clippings from the entire season and gave them out to each team member and staff. (This was less than 25 copies; and probably could be said to be educational since each player was enrolled in the "basketball team" PE class.) Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 16:13:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9703637B405 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:13:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49904BF3C; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:13:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16534; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:13:10 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBI0E1g29841; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:14:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <200112171739.fBHHdJj86694@prism.flugsvamp.com> <293d2935g7.d29@localhost.localdomain> <20011217160411.G377@prism.flugsvamp.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 17 Dec 2001 16:14:01 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011217160411.G377@prism.flugsvamp.com> Message-ID: <5dpu5d1j1y.u5d@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 67 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan Lemon writes: > On Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 01:24:56PM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > It might be wrong, but it's not ridiculous. There IS a copyrightable, > > licensable "work" which is the CD-ROM (or even a collection of FreeBSD > > OS files on a FTP site). Since that work contains GPL code, one must > > interpret the GPL to determine whether use of the GPL code is allowed > > without putting the whole work under the GPL. Note that the GPL broadly > > defines "Program" as anything and everything the GPL is applied to. > > No, I'm sorry, this is still ridiculous. By this same logic, if I > was a hardware vendor and decided to bundle a RedHat 7.2 CD among the > estra software packages, you would have me extend the GPL to include > everything, including the Microsoft Windows CD. > > I suppose that you can argue about the interpretation of the word > "based" in the license; as opposed to saying "included". > > I believe the above interpretation is stretching the realm of the absurd. Well, I guess "ridiculous" and "absurd" are in the eye of the beholder. Your "same logic" arugment is interesting, and you might have come up with a hard case, but you didn't. Few would think that putting a Red Hat CD and M$ CD in a box forms a new work of authorship deserving of copyright protection, and those who do will need to worry about infringing the GPL by putting it in a partly M$EULA-protected work. Consider this from 17 USC 101: compilation -- For copyright purposes, a work formed by selecting and assembling preexisting materials (generally facts or data unprotected by copyright) in a unique way to form an original work of authorship. A database is a good example of a compilation. A compilation must have some creative aspects--such as the way it is organized and the materials selected for inclusion--to qualify for copyright protection. For example, a list of favorite Web sites including the word "gelatin," arranged by category, would be rather creative, while a phone directory would not. But few (CD publishers) would NOT think that a CD is a copyrightable work. (My Red Hat CD has their copyright claim printed on it.) From the GPL: The "Program", below, refers to any such program or work, and a "work based on the Program" means either the Program or any derivative work under copyright law: that is to say, a work containing the Program or a portion of it, either verbatim or with modifications and/or translated into another language. Note the "a work containing the Program or a portioin of it" part. (There's no need to argue about the interpretation of the word "based" as you propose.) Why is a Red Hat (or FreeBSD) software compilation on CD not a "work based on the [GPL'd] Program"? (It is also a collective work, since it contains publisher-owned work, and is definitely worthy of copyrights.) And like I said, you then have to the GPL to try to learn if it allows distribution as part of such a work without infecting the other work. That's debatable and reliance on any conclusion is legally risky. Acceptably so in the case of things like gcc and binutils where the owners have made us feel comfortable that they will continue to allow such use regardless of the GPL. Also acceptably so for much other software because of the common (mis?)understanding of the GPL which holds certain uses (like in collective works) non-viral so that the risk of being sued is small. So it is law and the language of the GPL that you should find absurd. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 16:32:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (66-188-92-95.mad.wi.charter.com [66.188.92.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A7437B416 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:32:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBI0V4301197; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:31:04 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:31:03 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Message-ID: <20011217183103.K377@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200112171739.fBHHdJj86694@prism.flugsvamp.com> <293d2935g7.d29@localhost.localdomain> <20011217160411.G377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <5dpu5d1j1y.u5d@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <5dpu5d1j1y.u5d@localhost.localdomain> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 04:14:01PM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > Note the "a work containing the Program or a portioin of it" part. > (There's no need to argue about the interpretation of the word "based" > as you propose.) Why is a Red Hat (or FreeBSD) software compilation on > CD not a "work based on the [GPL'd] Program"? (It is also a collective > work, since it contains publisher-owned work, and is definitely worthy > of copyrights.) And like I said, you then have to the GPL to try to > learn if it allows distribution as part of such a work without infecting > the other work. That's debatable and reliance on any conclusion is > legally risky. Acceptably so in the case of things like gcc and binutils > where the owners have made us feel comfortable that they will continue > to allow such use regardless of the GPL. Also acceptably so for much > other software because of the common (mis?)understanding of the GPL > which holds certain uses (like in collective works) non-viral so that > the risk of being sued is small. > > So it is law and the language of the GPL that you should find absurd. Note that the law is not as clearcut as you make it seem. You can argue it your way, and I can argue it my way, but until the matter is actually decided by the courts, either interpretation may be correct. Trivial example: remember those ski lift tickets that said something to the effect of "by purchasing this ticket, you agree to the risks and hold harmless..?" These were decided by the courts as being invalid. So even if the language is clear cut, there still is the matter of legality. Note that the courts, in deciding how a law/license should be interpreted, take into account the intent of the person(s) writing the license. In this case, the author is Richard Stallman. I believe that Greg has already asked for clarification, and has posted Mr Stallman's answer - in which he states that the GPL does *NOT* apply in your scenario. Now, in lieu of the courts making a decision, I would say that this is the closest you're going to get to an authoritative answer. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 17:33:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6BA537B405; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:33:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 05C1F786E3; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:03:46 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:03:45 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" , hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org, "Brandon D. Valentine" , Hiten Pandya , chat@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Message-ID: <20011218120345.D21649@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217092958.0299fdf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217092958.0299fdf0@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 17 December 2001 at 9:33:29 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:27 AM 12/17/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> Not true. The FreeBSD Project would be obliged to license the entire >>> kernel -- source and binary -- under the GPL. >> >> That is a complete and utter contradiction of what Stallman said. I >> see that you carefully removed his words: >> >>> The kernel code released under the revised BSD license will continue >>> to be under the revised BSD license; it is only the *combination as >>> a whole* that will be covered by the GPL--if and when the >>> GPL-covered code is included in it. > > That's right. That means that every FreeBSD CD-ROM must be GPLed. > So must the kernel as a whole. I find it amazing how you can make claims like this in the face of all evidence, and that you again remove such evidence as doesn't fit into your claims: > If someone links a kernel without that GPL-covered code, the GPL > won't apply to that kernel. You carefully removed that sentence from the paragraph above. Obviously your intentions are dishonourable, to stir up discontent, not to come to an equitable solution. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 17:40:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187AF37B41A for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id EB64D786E3; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:10:11 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:10:11 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I can't be bothered to reply to any more of the GPL thread. It's clear that we have in the project a vocal minority of rabid anti-GNU people who ignore the facts, and in some cases twist statements to suit their own prejudices. I don't believe we have a need for people like that in the project. I certainly don't intend to feed them. The fact is that Stallman says: > If you link some GPL-covered code into the kernel, the GPL's > conditions will apply to the kernel as a whole. But only to that kernel, which is a binary. The only effect the GPL has on a binary is to require the supplier to also supply the source code on request. I can't imagine that we'd have problems with that. > I don't think that results in any legal difficulty. The FreeBSD > kernel uses the revised BSD license, right? That is compatible with > the GPL. So you can link these things together. The kernel code > released under the revised BSD license will continue to be under the > revised BSD license; it is only the *combination as a whole* that > will be covered by the GPL--if and when the GPL-covered code is > included in it. If someone links a kernel without that GPL-covered > code, the GPL won't apply to that kernel. > > The main consequence, legally, of including some GPL-covered code > would be that you could not *also* link in other code with > GPL-incompatible licenses. There's one unclear area here, that some of the files still use the original BSD license. I need to discuss with rms what effect that has. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 17:41:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F5D137B41A for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0EB5BCFD; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10826; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:41:13 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBI1g1w30051; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:42:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <200112171739.fBHHdJj86694@prism.flugsvamp.com> <293d2935g7.d29@localhost.localdomain> <20011217160411.G377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <5dpu5d1j1y.u5d@localhost.localdomain> <20011217183103.K377@prism.flugsvamp.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 17 Dec 2001 17:42:01 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011217183103.K377@prism.flugsvamp.com> Message-ID: Lines: 63 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan Lemon writes: > On Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 04:14:01PM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > > > Note the "a work containing the Program or a portioin of it" part. > > (There's no need to argue about the interpretation of the word "based" > > as you propose.) Why is a Red Hat (or FreeBSD) software compilation on > > CD not a "work based on the [GPL'd] Program"? (It is also a collective > > work, since it contains publisher-owned work, and is definitely worthy > > of copyrights.) And like I said, you then have to the GPL to try to > > learn if it allows distribution as part of such a work without infecting > > the other work. That's debatable and reliance on any conclusion is > > legally risky. Acceptably so in the case of things like gcc and binutils > > where the owners have made us feel comfortable that they will continue > > to allow such use regardless of the GPL. Also acceptably so for much > > other software because of the common (mis?)understanding of the GPL > > which holds certain uses (like in collective works) non-viral so that > > the risk of being sued is small. > > > > So it is law and the language of the GPL that you should find absurd. > > Note that the law is not as clearcut as you make it seem. You can > argue it your way, and I can argue it my way, but until the matter > is actually decided by the courts, either interpretation may be correct. Ridiculous and absurd, but maybe correct. Well, I guess that's somthing. > Trivial example: remember those ski lift tickets that said something to ... Yes, of course the GPL may contain unenforcable restrictions. But the prudent person will assume that it doesn't until a court finds that does. > Note that the courts, in deciding how a law/license should be interpreted, > take into account the intent of the person(s) writing the license. In > this case, the author is Richard Stallman. I believe that Greg has already > asked for clarification, and has posted Mr Stallman's answer - in which > he states that the GPL does *NOT* apply in your scenario. Courts are supposed to take into account the words and the understanding of each parties to the license contract of what each is agreeing to (and also the words themselves). Stallman's opinion should be irrelevant except to the extent that it influences the just-referred-to understandings. Sadly, in practice, a judge's personal biases are likely to be influenced by Stallman's opinion while researching what the words mean and what the common understanding of the GPL might be. > Now, in lieu of the courts making a decision, I would say that this is > the closest you're going to get to an authoritative answer. An answer to what? We don't expect an authoritative answer to the meaning of the GPL, even after low-level courts rule on it. What we're trying to determine is the level of legal and practical risks involved in some uses of GPL'd code and, considering that, what use should be made of GPL'd code with FreeBSD. The authoritive answer to that will be in the minds of a relative few FreeBSD core people and I expect to only see the results, but I suppose opinions are welcome on -chat. P.S. Please educate yourself as to Mr. Stallman's trustworthiness in regards to the applicability of the GPL to which you referred above. http://www.progressive-comp.com/Lists/?l=berlin-design&m=93118897023514&w=2 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 17:47:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E813037B41A for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:47:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 34030 invoked by uid 100); 18 Dec 2001 01:47:46 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15390.41026.585546.798659@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:47:46 -0600 To: Terry Lambert Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Early desktop history (Was: Re: UNIX on the Desktop) In-Reply-To: <3C1DB7EB.9232204A@mindspring.com> References: <20011216112759.U16958-100000@localhost> <002f01c1866e$1e4d9510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DB7EB.9232204A@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > If you want desktop applications, the first spread sheets, word > processors, databases, etc., ran on CP/M (and MP/M) -- also from > Digital Research. I'm pretty sure the first spread sheet was visicalc, and it ran on the Apple ][. In any case, spreadsheets, word processors, databases, etc. were all available for the Apple ][, the TRS-80 Model I, Flex, and various other 8-bit systems that were available at the time. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 18: 8:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (66-188-92-95.mad.wi.charter.com [66.188.92.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61B3E37B416 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:08:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBI26xO04287; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:06:59 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:06:59 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Message-ID: <20011217200659.L377@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200112171739.fBHHdJj86694@prism.flugsvamp.com> <293d2935g7.d29@localhost.localdomain> <20011217160411.G377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <5dpu5d1j1y.u5d@localhost.localdomain> <20011217183103.K377@prism.flugsvamp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 05:42:01PM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > Yes, of course the GPL may contain unenforcable restrictions. But the > prudent person will assume that it doesn't until a court finds that does. A prudent person will make a rational decision rather than taking everything at face value. > P.S. Please educate yourself as to Mr. Stallman's trustworthiness in > regards to the applicability of the GPL to which you referred above. And you might want to educate yourself as to what the GPL says; see Gary Clark's posting, which indicates this whole discussion is moot. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 18:23:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1934D37B41D for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEBBEBF9D; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:23:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22446; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:23:13 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBI2O3730057; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:24:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: GB Clark II Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <20011217160411.G377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <5dpu5d1j1y.u5d@localhost.localdomain> <01121718324202.65128@prime.vsservices.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 17 Dec 2001 18:24:03 -0800 In-Reply-To: <01121718324202.65128@prime.vsservices.com> Message-ID: <1dd71d1d18.71d@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 36 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org GB Clark II writes: > Also from the GPL: > > "In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program > with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of > a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under > the scope of this License." > > Just being on a CD with other stuff does not put the entire CD under the GPL. That's only true if you believe your GPL quote over-rules this GPL quote: But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote it. I don't know how a lawyer or any random GPL licensor would harmonize those two passages. I'd guess the same way you do, but it's just a guess. FUD reigns. I think that your GPL quote allows dynamic AND static linking without contamination if it allows the form of linking which occurs when collecting works on a CD. Copyright law doesn't distinguish between executable object module collections and unexecutable source module collections, AFAIK. The same theory that finds linking viral could find compilation viral. People don't want to hear it, but nobody explains why it isn't so. > All of this has hashed years ago back at the very begining of the Project. And ever since, probably. You don't mind if we develop our own opinions by chatting about it, I hope. (Though I may be overdoing it a bit. I'll try to cut down on it.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 18:24:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F04937B41B for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0289.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.34] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16G9vg-0003fD-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:24:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1EA8DD.E9E76375@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:24:29 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <20011217163427.A2885@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C1DEA69.93892A66@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > There are tons of other examples, but one is enough. The license can > > not be changed without the consent of all the authors. > > It CAN be changed by the copyright owners, regardless of the authors. > Based on little evidence, copyrights seem to be claimed by just a > few organizations (including U. of CA), but I wonder if many of these > claims are bogus and copyright is mostly in the hands of hundreds of > authors, making licensing change impractical. (Though legal > class-actions often treat individuals unfairly in favor of the group.) I picked the specific example to have John Dyson's copyright notice on it, since he is a well known public opponent of the GPL, and will be incredibly dificult to reach, let alone to get him to change the license to one which is supposedly "GPL compatible". > > Technically, it is an aggregate license in that case. > > You keep mentioning that license. Care to explain? I only got > "collective work" and "compilation" out of 17 USC. And the OSKit > "aggregate license" that you mentioned (found here ? > http://www.cs.utah.edu/flux/oskit/html/oskit-wwwch47.html ) > is no license at all; they just say that various parts have various > licenses and ignore the issue of aggregating it in any manner. Compilation. > > The way you would have to get around this is to insist on a relinking > > of the kernel by the user, in that case, rather than the use of modules, > > should the modules be derived from the original BSDL'ed code. This > > would work, if we took special care to ensure the aggregate license > > only applied to the binaries on the distribution, and that the sources > > were distributed to comply with the aggregate license, bute were not, > > themselves subject to that license. > > Maybe so, but you also have to convince the GPLer that you're not just > "working around" his intent to prevent such use of his code with non-GPL > code in the license you have accepted. Or live with the (low?) risk. Of course, that is exactly what you are doing, however: using a technicality, a flaw in the license, to get around the spirit, but not the letter. If you write an unfavorable contract for yourself, you can't get out of it by yelling "Do Overs!". 8^). This is why, when you get down to it, that the eCOS license is a significantly better instrumentality of the GNU Manifesto than either the GPL or LGPL. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 18:25:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0089537B405 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:25:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 0CC807573; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:27:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC4941D91; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:27:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:27:05 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: :On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Jamie Bowden wrote: : :> :> The entire paper was not. :> : :> :I must mention that individual articles for newspapers (and from :> :magazines) do have value by themselves. :> :> Case law with respect to fair use is very specific that a single artice :> in full from a magazine or newspaper is fair use. I just watched this : :You must have missed the previous emails about this. There are guidelines :that help define "fair use". I didn't miss them; they were only partially quoted, and I'm going by what four people who are learned in law tell me on this. :> flamewar a month ago on a list with people who are lawyers in real life. :> Copyright law is complicated and ugly, but they all agreed on this point. : :I guess these lawyers don't know about copyrights and fair use. Or this is :misunderstood. I'm usually willing to believe a prosecutor when he says there's no case there, and is backed up by three other lawyers. :Again: I don't know of any credible publishing company that republishes :others' articles without permission. A publishing company is not an individual, which is what we're discussing unless freebsd-chat is suddenly a division of Random House. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 18:32:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D91D037B41D for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:32:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.39] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBI2W2Y26892; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 03:32:03 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 03:30:46 +0100 To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:10 PM +1030 on 2001/12/18, Greg Lehey wrote: >> If you link some GPL-covered code into the kernel, the GPL's >> conditions will apply to the kernel as a whole. > > But only to that kernel, which is a binary. The only effect the GPL > has on a binary is to require the supplier to also supply the source > code on request. I can't imagine that we'd have problems with that. We might not, but the BSD license allows people to take the code and turn it into a proprietary, closed-source project. That would no longer be possible for anyone who wanted to use a GPL-infested BSD. For example, this would almost certainly have killed the Whistle InterJet, as well as many other commercial projects using BSD. Yes, projects like this can contribute source code back, and frequently do -- but it's their choice as to what they contribute and what they keep private. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 18:43:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3322837B41E for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:43:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 3F3D2786E3; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:13:51 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:13:51 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011218131351.M21649@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 18 December 2001 at 3:30:46 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 12:10 PM +1030 on 2001/12/18, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> If you link some GPL-covered code into the kernel, the GPL's >>> conditions will apply to the kernel as a whole. >> >> But only to that kernel, which is a binary. The only effect the GPL >> has on a binary is to require the supplier to also supply the source >> code on request. I can't imagine that we'd have problems with that. > > We might not, but the BSD license allows people to take the code > and turn it into a proprietary, closed-source project. That would no > longer be possible for anyone who wanted to use a GPL-infested BSD. Read what it says: > The kernel code released under the revised BSD license will continue > to be under the revised BSD license; it is only the *combination as > a whole* that will be covered by the GPL--if and when the > GPL-covered code is included in it. If someone links a kernel > without that GPL-covered code, the GPL won't apply to that kernel. What part of that don't you understand? > For example, this would almost certainly have killed the > Whistle InterJet, as well as many other commercial projects using > BSD. Yes, projects like this can contribute source code back, and > frequently do -- but it's their choice as to what they contribute > and what they keep private. You need to explain this. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 19:12:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50A3037B41B for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:12:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0289.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.34] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GAfZ-0002gO-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:11:54 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1EB3F3.C18433AE@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:11:47 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Boston Globe Article (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > Case law with respect to fair use is very specific that a single arti= ce > > in full from a magazine or newspaper is fair use. I just watched thi= s > = > You must have missed the previous emails about this. There are guidelin= es > that help define "fair use". > = > > flamewar a month ago on a list with people who are lawyers in real li= fe. > > Copyright law is complicated and ugly, but they all agreed on this po= int. > = > I guess these lawyers don't know about copyrights and fair use. Or this= is > misunderstood. > = > Again: I don't know of any credible publishing company that republishes= > others' articles without permission. We are not talking in the context of publication by a publishing company, we are talking about "fair use", which most often does not involve publishing companies. Please see: Williams & Wilkins v. United States, 172 U.S.P.Q. 670 (Ct. Cl. 1972), rev'd, 487 F.2d 1345 (Ct. Cl. 1973), aff'd by an equally divided court, 420 U.S. 376 (1975). 487 F.2d at 1346-47. The publisher, Williams & Wilkins, published 37 journals dealing with medical specialties and alleged that four of these journals were illegally copied by the defendants. Id. at 1347. In 1970, the NIH library distributed 93,000 copies of journal articles to in-house staff and researchers. Id. at 1348. The NLM library made 120,000 copies of journal articles which were distributed to other libraries, government agencies, or outside patrons consisting of =93private or commercial organizations, particularly drug companies.=94 Id. at 1349. The "suggest[ion] that the copying of an entire copyrighted work, any such work, cannot ever be 'fair use,' . . . is an overbroad generalization, unsupported by the decisions and rejected by years of accepted practice." *Williams & Wilkins*, 487 F.2d at 1353.(10) And (U.S. Supreme Court majority decision): *Sony Corp. v. Universal City Studios, Inc.*, 464 U.S. 417, 429 (1984) ("*Sony*") that: The monopoly privileges that Congress may authorize are neither unlimited nor primarily designed to provide a special private benefit. Rather, the limited grant is a means by which an important public purpose may be achieved. I think that "American Geophysical v. Texaco" is also incredibly relevent, in which the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the right of Texaco to make full copies of research journal articles. See also: http://www.nita.org/lexisarticles.htm http://vls.law.vill.edu/students/orgs/sports/back_issues/volume1/issue1/f= airuse.html http://www.ce9.uscourts.gov/web/newopinions.nsf/4bc2cbe0ce5be94e882569270= 07a37b9/53365d33bd6623fc8825695e005e9ee5?OpenDocument For future reference: I suggest the Google search: /"case law" "fair use" apellate entirety/ -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 19:12:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40F7737B41E; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:12:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.39] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBI3CTS02384; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 04:12:29 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20011218131351.M21649@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011218131351.M21649@monorchid.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 04:12:17 +0100 To: Greg Lehey , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:13 PM +1030 on 2001/12/18, Greg Lehey wrote: > Read what it says: > >> The kernel code released under the revised BSD license will continue >> to be under the revised BSD license; it is only the *combination as >> a whole* that will be covered by the GPL--if and when the >> GPL-covered code is included in it. If someone links a kernel >> without that GPL-covered code, the GPL won't apply to that kernel. > > What part of that don't you understand? I read that. As soon as the GPL-covered code is included in the kernel, then the "*combination as a whole*" is covered by the GPL, which creates precisely the situation we want to avoid. It's no problem for those of us on the pure open source side, who would be providing the source code anyway. However, this is a deal-killer for any commercial project. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 19:39:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E3137B416 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:39:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0289.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.34] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GB6Y-000461-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:39:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1EBA83.30ED9A86@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:39:47 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: GB Clark II , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <20011217160411.G377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <5dpu5d1j1y.u5d@localhost.localdomain> <01121718324202.65128@prime.vsservices.com> <1dd71d1d18.71d@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So... What is it about people whose names begin with "G" and their relationship with licenses that begin with "G"? 8^) 8^) 8^) -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 19:41:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C9B137B419; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:41:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95975BDA2; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:41:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10626; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:41:21 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBI3gBJ40898; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:42:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217001345.00e26280@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217092958.0299fdf0@localhost> <20011218120345.D21649@monorchid.lemis.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 17 Dec 2001 19:42:11 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011218120345.D21649@monorchid.lemis.com> Message-ID: Lines: 57 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Monday, 17 December 2001 at 9:33:29 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 01:27 AM 12/17/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >>> Not true. The FreeBSD Project would be obliged to license the entire > >>> kernel -- source and binary -- under the GPL. > >> > >> That is a complete and utter contradiction of what Stallman said. I > >> see that you carefully removed his words: > >> > >>> The kernel code released under the revised BSD license will continue > >>> to be under the revised BSD license; it is only the *combination as > >>> a whole* that will be covered by the GPL--if and when the > >>> GPL-covered code is included in it. > > > > That's right. That means that every FreeBSD CD-ROM must be GPLed. > > So must the kernel as a whole. > > I find it amazing how you can make claims like this in the face of all > evidence, and that you again remove such evidence as doesn't fit into > your claims: > > > If someone links a kernel without that GPL-covered code, the GPL > > won't apply to that kernel. > > You carefully removed that sentence from the paragraph above. > Obviously your intentions are dishonourable, to stir up discontent, > not to come to an equitable solution. Sorry I couldn't trim my quote. Didn't want to risk being considered dishonorable (or maybe that should be "dishonourable" :-). But seriously, it seems obvious from Brett's "That means..." above, that he recognizes the combination of the kernel and module (in source and/or binary form?) on the CD as no different in a copyright law sense than the combination of the two in the linked kernel which Greg and RMS were thinking about. Both are aggregates and it is only RMS's claim that one is "mere aggregation" and one is just "aggregation". In fact, RMS probably has it backwards: There is more creative authorship going on in the selection and organization of sub-works on a CD, than there is in the mechanical process of linking a kernel module to a kernel. If a compilation on a CD meets the mere aggregation escape clause, then linking independent works like a kernel and non-custom-interface module surely ought to make the escape too. If one doesn't, like RMS says, then the other doesn't, like Brett says. Finally, if the whole contents of the CD is under the GPL, then "each and every part" of it is under the GPL and the Brett-clipped RMS claim that a kernel linked without GPL-covered code needn't be GPL'd was non-sense. If the CD is not under the GPL, then RMS's claim was obvious. Why should he have included it? One should be careful before calling someone dishonest, because one might have just failed to follow the argument. (Very easy to do in this stuff.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 20: 5:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6013D37B419 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:05:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0289.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.34] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GBV6-0001rB-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:05:09 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1EC075.C4ECA2FF@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:05:09 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Early desktop history (Was: Re: UNIX on the Desktop) References: <20011216112759.U16958-100000@localhost> <002f01c1866e$1e4d9510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DB7EB.9232204A@mindspring.com> <15390.41026.585546.798659@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > I'm pretty sure the first spread sheet was visicalc, and it ran on the > Apple ][. In any case, spreadsheets, word processors, databases, > etc. were all available for the Apple ][, the TRS-80 Model I, Flex, > and various other 8-bit systems that were available at the time. I definitely ran my copy on the KayPro2, which was a decidedly CP/M machine. The TRS-80 model I was Z80 based, meaning that it was also a CP/M machine. The SWTP 6800 (South West Technical Products S100-based machine) where I wrote my first BASIC program (using front panel switches to key in the bootstrap, before hand-cranking the patched paper tape copy of the language) wasn't CP/M, though... but then, that *was* 1976. 8^). To think... you could get an 8K expansion card from A-VIDD for only $350.00 back then, fully assembled! 8^) 8^). ...but I digress. 8^p. VisiCalc was first released on the Apple ][ in 1979. If you want a copy for your PC, it's 27K, and can be downloaded from Dan Bricklin's home page: http://www.bricklin.com/history/vcexecutable.htm FWIW: The reasons VisiCalc was never patented is that software patents have only been around since 1981. 8^) 8^). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 20:16:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74E0A37B41C for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:16:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0289.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.34] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GBgI-0007C7-00; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:16:42 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1EC32B.3737FAE0@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:16:43 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Early desktop history (Was: Re: UNIX on the Desktop) References: <20011216112759.U16958-100000@localhost> <002f01c1866e$1e4d9510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DB7EB.9232204A@mindspring.com> <15390.41026.585546.798659@guru.mired.org> <3C1EC075.C4ECA2FF@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > The SWTP 6800 (South West Technical Products S100-based machine) > where I wrote my first BASIC program (using front panel switches > to key in the bootstrap, before hand-cranking the patched paper > tape copy of the language) wasn't CP/M, though... but then, that > *was* 1976. 8^). Before people blow a gasket over "front panel switches" because the SWTP 6800 I used looked like: http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/6800_2/6800_2bw640.jpg The switches were on a seperate front panel mounted to that front panel, which someone else had hacked up from parts (paddle toggle switches and LEDs, mostly). Thanks, -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 20:21: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5B8BA37B41F for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:20:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 35305 invoked by uid 100); 18 Dec 2001 04:20:52 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15390.50212.447906.685469@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:20:52 -0600 To: Terry Lambert Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Early desktop history (Was: Re: UNIX on the Desktop) In-Reply-To: <3C1EC075.C4ECA2FF@mindspring.com> References: <20011216112759.U16958-100000@localhost> <002f01c1866e$1e4d9510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DB7EB.9232204A@mindspring.com> <15390.41026.585546.798659@guru.mired.org> <3C1EC075.C4ECA2FF@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > I'm pretty sure the first spread sheet was visicalc, and it ran on the > > Apple ][. In any case, spreadsheets, word processors, databases, > > etc. were all available for the Apple ][, the TRS-80 Model I, Flex, > > and various other 8-bit systems that were available at the time. > I definitely ran my copy on the KayPro2, which was a decidedly > CP/M machine. Possibly I should have said "first ran on the Apple ][". We sold a few of them just with that before it was available on CP/M. > The TRS-80 model I was Z80 based, meaning that it > was also a CP/M machine. The TRS-80 Model I ran TRS-DOS by default. It had ROM at location 0, so you couldn't run stock CP/M on a stock Model I. You could get a version of CP/M that ran on it, but any binaries had to be built specifically for that version. You could also get hardware mods for the Model I so it could run stock CP/M. > ...but I digress. 8^p. > > VisiCalc was first released on the Apple ][ in 1979. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 20:28:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from primus.vsservices.com (primus.vsservices.com [63.66.136.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E8A737B417 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:28:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from prime.vsservices.com (conr-adsl-dhcp-26-38.txucom.net [209.34.26.38]) by primus.vsservices.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBI0WfC21920; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:32:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gclarkii@vsservices.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: GB Clark II To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), Jonathan Lemon Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:32:42 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011217160411.G377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <5dpu5d1j1y.u5d@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <5dpu5d1j1y.u5d@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01121718324202.65128@prime.vsservices.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday 17 December 2001 18:14, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > Note the "a work containing the Program or a portioin of it" part. > (There's no need to argue about the interpretation of the word "based" > as you propose.) Why is a Red Hat (or FreeBSD) software compilation on > CD not a "work based on the [GPL'd] Program"? (It is also a collective > work, since it contains publisher-owned work, and is definitely worthy > of copyrights.) And like I said, you then have to the GPL to try to > learn if it allows distribution as part of such a work without infecting > the other work. That's debatable and reliance on any conclusion is > legally risky. Acceptably so in the case of things like gcc and binutils > where the owners have made us feel comfortable that they will continue > to allow such use regardless of the GPL. Also acceptably so for much > other software because of the common (mis?)understanding of the GPL > which holds certain uses (like in collective works) non-viral so that > the risk of being sued is small. Also from the GPL: "In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this License." Just being on a CD with other stuff does not put the entire CD under the GPL. Every GPL program in the main system (gcc, binutils, etc) we ship with source or make the source easily available for our modified version. The only things that are not stand alone are kernel modules and we include NONE of them in the stock kernel as a binary. All of this has hashed years ago back at the very begining of the Project. GB -- GB Clark II | Roaming FreeBSD Admin gclarkii@VSServices.COM | General Geek CTHULU for President - Why choose the lesser of two evils? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 21: 6:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E15837B41C for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:06:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16675BF14; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:06:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00960; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:06:46 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBI57ZZ40910; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:07:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 17 Dec 2001 21:07:35 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> Message-ID: <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 69 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > I can't be bothered to reply to any more of the GPL thread. It's > clear that we have in the project a vocal minority of rabid anti-GNU > people who ignore the facts, and in some cases twist statements to > suit their own prejudices. I don't believe we have a need for people > like that in the project. I certainly don't intend to feed them. Well, he said "reply", not "read", so I've left the "To:" line alone. I'm sorry to read that nasty bit about "people like that". I came to FreeBSD from 6 years of Linux soley to support non-copyleft free software. It's rather disheartening to find the GNU with it's gnose so far into the tent and with so many people seemingly uncaring and uninformed about having non-copyleft software swept into the dustbin of history as better copyleft software replaces it piece by piece. It's suprised me that it took almost 5 months on the MLs and 6 months before that on the NG for me to see the subject come up in even this half-serious -chat thread. There's obviously some evangelizing to do. But I'll try to keep it lower profile than in the last couple of days. From what I've seen so far, Greg's "people like that" attitude is not common in FreeBSD, so I don't plan to go anywhere soon. > The fact is that Stallman says: > > > If you link some GPL-covered code into the kernel, the GPL's > > conditions will apply to the kernel as a whole. > > But only to that kernel, which is a binary. The only effect the GPL > has on a binary is to require the supplier to also supply the source > code on request. I can't imagine that we'd have problems with that. A problem with the "that" statement? Or a problem with "that" effect? A problem with that statement is that it isn't true; another effect the GPL has on a binary is to require the source to be licensed under the GPL too. One is a mere translation of the other and if one is a GPL-licensed "program", then the other must be too. It's all spelled out there in the GPL. That part is even clear. A problem with the effect is that it might cost us time and money and legal liability to also supply the source code on request if we are distributing an embedded kernel. Another is that we might not like spending a penny to satisfy the bullying tactics of Stallman. The GPL could easily have an exception for other free software without harming anything but Stallman's desire to bully people into doing it his way in his quest to punish closed-source software developers. If the question is why we'd have problems with dual-licensing the source, there isn't much point in discussing it, because the licensing can't be changed unless someone can hunt up nearly all of the owners. > > The main consequence, legally, of including some GPL-covered code > > would be that you could not *also* link in other code with > > GPL-incompatible licenses. > > There's one unclear area here, that some of the files still use the > original BSD license. I need to discuss with rms what effect that > has. What's unclear? You are infringing if you include some GPL-covered code AND link in other code with GPL-incompatible licenses. So you don't that. Gotta close this now. Very thirsty and need to wipe up some drool. -- A rabid anti-GPL person. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 21:13:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C62D437B419 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:13:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06982; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:13:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221059.02843e50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:13:00 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:40 PM 12/17/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >I can't be bothered to reply to any more of the GPL thread. It's >clear that we have in the project a vocal minority of rabid anti-GNU >people who ignore the facts, Not so. These people recognize the dangers of the GPL. The fact that YOU personally would like to turn a blind eye to these dangers does not make the threat any less real. If you want to drop out of the thread so as to stick your head in the sand, so be it. The discussion would be more productive if you did. >But only to that kernel, which is a binary. The only effect the GPL >has on a binary is to require the supplier to also supply the source >code on request. Dead wrong. That source code must also be GPLed. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 21:13:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0D9D737B417 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:13:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8615 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2001 05:13:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.199) by outpost-4.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 18 Dec 2001 05:13:52 -0000 Message-ID: <3C1ED086.725352BC@outpost.co.nz> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:13:42 +1300 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > so far into the tent and with so many people seemingly uncaring and > uninformed about having non-copyleft software swept into the dustbin > of history as better copyleft software replaces it piece by piece. If the software's better, isn't that the point? Is it really the smart approach to choose the worse solution to a problem just because of the license it uses? > It's suprised me that it took almost 5 months on the MLs and 6 months > before that on the NG for me to see the subject come up in even this > half-serious -chat thread. It's a matter of history. After so many endless threads over the last few years on the evils (or otherwise) of the GPL, usually with Brett Glass endlessly pushing his point of view to allcomers, I think you'll find that most people subscribed to -chat are heartily sick of the subject. -- C. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 Outpost Digital Media Ltd http://www.outpost.co.nz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 21:17:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9953437B41C for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:17:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA07021; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:17:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221419.02844e40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:16:57 -0700 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:07 PM 12/17/2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >It's suprised me that it took almost 5 months on the MLs and 6 months >before that on the NG for me to see the subject come up in even this >half-serious -chat thread. People like Greg have tried to squelch discussion of the issue. >A problem with that statement is that it isn't true; another effect the >GPL has on a binary is to require the source to be licensed under the >GPL too. One is a mere translation of the other and if one is a >GPL-licensed "program", then the other must be too. It's all spelled out >there in the GPL. That part is even clear. > >A problem with the effect is that it might cost us time and money and >legal liability to also supply the source code on request if we are >distributing an embedded kernel. I have now worked on several embedded versions of FreeBSD. My clients would not want to have that code confiscated by the GPL; in fact, it would be disastrous for them if it happened. >Another is that we might not like >spending a penny to satisfy the bullying tactics of Stallman. The >GPL could easily have an exception for other free software without >harming anything but Stallman's desire to bully people into doing it >his way in his quest to punish closed-source software developers. Agree 100%. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 21:20:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2114F37B41A for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:20:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA07070; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:19:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:19:50 -0700 To: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: <3C1ED086.725352BC@outpost.co.nz> References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:13 PM 12/17/2001, Craig Harding wrote: >If the software's better, isn't that the point? Is it really the smart >approach to choose the worse solution to a problem just because of the >license it uses? Absolutely. It means the difference between earning a living and being deprived of one (which is one of the explicit goals of the GPL; see Stallman's "GNU Manifesto"). >It's a matter of history. After so many endless threads over the last >few years on the evils (or otherwise) of the GPL, usually with Brett >Glass endlessly pushing his point of view to allcomers, Not endlessly. But I am persistent because the issue is important and because FreeBSD is already in deep trouble. The GPL camel is already in the tent. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 21:23:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 002B437B41D for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:23:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C8128786E4; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:53:48 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:53:48 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011218155348.S21649@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221059.02843e50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221059.02843e50@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 17 December 2001 at 22:13:00 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:40 PM 12/17/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >> But only to that kernel, which is a binary. The only effect the GPL >> has on a binary is to require the supplier to also supply the source >> code on request. > > Dead wrong. That source code must also be GPLed. "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength". You're contradicting written evidence again (after once again carefully removing it). Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 21:24:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E652B37B419 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:24:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8671 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2001 05:24:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.199) by outpost-4.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 18 Dec 2001 05:24:50 -0000 Message-ID: <3C1ED319.922CDD1E@outpost.co.nz> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:24:41 +1300 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > >If the software's better, isn't that the point? Is it really the smart > >approach to choose the worse solution to a problem just because of the > >license it uses? > > Absolutely. It means the difference between earning a living and > being deprived of one (which is one of the explicit goals of the > GPL; see Stallman's "GNU Manifesto"). Then why don't you run off and make "MediocreBSD" using software that's second best but using the One True (GPL-Free) License? -- C. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 Outpost Digital Media Ltd http://www.outpost.co.nz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 21:29: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8790837B416; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:29:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA07273; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:28:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217222426.02ac3530@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:28:50 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <20011218155348.S21649@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221059.02843e50@localhost> <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221059.02843e50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:23 PM 12/17/2001, Greg Lehey wrote: >"War is Peace. You seem to adhere to this by refusing to admit that Stallman and the FSF are making war on the rest of the software world and pretending that everything is peaceful. > Freedom is slavery. Stallman's viewpoint exactly. What he calls "freedom" is indeed slavery. > Ignorance is strength". This seems to be your view. You seem to want to remain ignorant of the deleterious effects of the GPL so that you can maintain a false sense of security. Time for you to bow out of the discussion as promised. If you stayed and listened, you might become less ignorant, and you wouldn't want THAT to happen. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 21:32:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4495037B405 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:32:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA07314; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:32:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217222907.028403b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:32:02 -0700 To: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: <3C1ED319.922CDD1E@outpost.co.nz> References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:24 PM 12/17/2001, Craig Harding wrote: >Then why don't you run off and make "MediocreBSD" using software that's >second best but using the One True (GPL-Free) License? Because it would be far more productive to correct FreeBSD's policies and kick the GPL out of the distribution. There are few things there for which non-GPLed code does not exist or cannot be generated with a reasonable investment of effort. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 21:45:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7471137B41D for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from bmah.dyndns.org ([12.233.149.189]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20011218054514.FSYD403.rwcrmhc52.attbi.com@bmah.dyndns.org>; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 05:45:14 +0000 Received: (from bmah@localhost) by bmah.dyndns.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBI5jEO16051; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:45:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah) Message-Id: <200112180545.fBI5jEO16051@bmah.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: Terry Lambert , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Early desktop history (Was: Re: UNIX on the Desktop) In-Reply-To: <15390.50212.447906.685469@guru.mired.org> References: <20011216112759.U16958-100000@localhost> <002f01c1866e$1e4d9510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DB7EB.9232204A@mindspring.com> <15390.41026.585546.798659@guru.mired.org> <3C1EC075.C4ECA2FF@mindspring.com> <15390.50212.447906.685469@guru.mired.org> Comments: In-reply-to "Mike Meyer" message dated "Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:20:52 -0600." From: bmah@acm.org (Bruce A. Mah) Reply-To: bmah@acm.org X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_-2019306734P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:45:14 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --==_Exmh_-2019306734P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If memory serves me right, "Mike Meyer" wrote: > Terry Lambert types: > > Mike Meyer wrote: > > > I'm pretty sure the first spread sheet was visicalc, and it ran on the > > > Apple ][. In any case, spreadsheets, word processors, databases, > > > etc. were all available for the Apple ][, the TRS-80 Model I, Flex, > > > and various other 8-bit systems that were available at the time. I thought I knew all the early 1980s 8-bit machines...what's a Flex? > > I definitely ran my copy on the KayPro2, which was a decidedly > > CP/M machine. > > Possibly I should have said "first ran on the Apple ][". We sold a few > of them just with that before it was available on CP/M. > > > The TRS-80 model I was Z80 based, meaning that it > > was also a CP/M machine. > > The TRS-80 Model I ran TRS-DOS by default. It had ROM at location 0, > so you couldn't run stock CP/M on a stock Model I. [snip] This discussion reminds me of my mutant Apple ][ Plus, which had a 6 MHz Z-80 coprocessor thrown in it, in addition to the standard 6502. It could run VisiCalc ("16 sector" version), plus a bunch of CP/M applications like WordStar. Sure was a lot of fun trying to run CP/M without hardware lowercase (anyone remember the ol' "shift key mod"?). Bruce. --==_Exmh_-2019306734P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Exmh version 2.3.1+ 05/14/2001 iD8DBQE8Htfq2MoxcVugUsMRAoX3AJ4gq6YCc5K2Tm4vgKz4qCHwsE2zJwCdEmMO 8lPu6hA2sXLbx2E+ZfwS2j4= =9AGs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_-2019306734P-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 21:51:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D8F9237B41B for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 36143 invoked by uid 100); 18 Dec 2001 05:51:08 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15390.55627.983293.8011@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:51:07 -0600 To: bmah@acm.org Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Early desktop history (Was: Re: UNIX on the Desktop) In-Reply-To: <200112180545.fBI5jEO16051@bmah.dyndns.org> References: <20011216112759.U16958-100000@localhost> <002f01c1866e$1e4d9510$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C1DB7EB.9232204A@mindspring.com> <15390.41026.585546.798659@guru.mired.org> <3C1EC075.C4ECA2FF@mindspring.com> <15390.50212.447906.685469@guru.mired.org> <200112180545.fBI5jEO16051@bmah.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bruce A. Mah types: > If memory serves me right, "Mike Meyer" wrote: > > Terry Lambert types: > > > Mike Meyer wrote: > > > > I'm pretty sure the first spread sheet was visicalc, and it ran on the > > > > Apple ][. In any case, spreadsheets, word processors, databases, > > > > etc. were all available for the Apple ][, the TRS-80 Model I, Flex, > > > > and various other 8-bit systems that were available at the time. > I thought I knew all the early 1980s 8-bit machines...what's a Flex? That's not a machine, it's an OS. It ran on the 6800 and later the 6809. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 17 22:14:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B09737B417 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 22:14:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA07706; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:14:15 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217231235.028f0710@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:14:10 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C1EA8DD.E9E76375@mindspring.com> References: <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <20011217163427.A2885@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C1DEA69.93892A66@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:24 PM 12/17/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >This is why, when you get down to it, that the eCOS license is a >significantly better instrumentality of the GNU Manifesto than >either the GPL or LGPL. I disagree. It's not, because the GNU Manifesto calls for the destruction of programmers' livelihoods and the eCOS license actually gives them half a chance to make money (though it is still non-free). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 1:26:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from torpy.unbc.ca (torpy.unbc.ca [142.207.144.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FAA37B41C for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 01:26:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from ugrad.unbc.ca (ugrad.unbc.ca [142.207.112.20]) by torpy.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA4374664; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 01:26:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (karlj000@localhost) by ugrad.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA14077; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 01:26:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ugrad.unbc.ca: karlj000 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 01:26:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Karlson To: Brett Glass Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217222907.028403b0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Because it would be far more productive to correct FreeBSD's policies > and kick the GPL out of the distribution. There are few things there > for which non-GPLed code does not exist or cannot be generated with > a reasonable investment of effort. Okay then, I'm curious to see EXACTLY which things need to be "corrected" in your view. I'm not interested in the GPL-non-GPL debate (and I'm putting "corrected" in quotation marks to avoid the battle), but let's see a list. I'm thinking core stuff only, and I'm assuming (for the moment) that we're going to continue using GCC, unless you've got other plans. If you've got the list, maybe there are some takers here. -- Jeremy The difference between legal separation and divorce is that legal separation gives the man time to hide his money. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 2: 7:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CAB237B419 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 02:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-241.wobline.de [212.68.69.252]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBIA6j702811; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:06:45 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBIA8IX21608; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:08:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBIA7Ka02330; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:07:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:06:45 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011218110645.A2061@tisys.org> References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain>; from swear@blarg.net on Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 09:07:35PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD jodie.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 9:58AM up 24 mins, 1 user, load averages: 0.20, 0.07, 0.02 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 09:07:35PM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen stood up and spoke: > > From what I've seen so far, Greg's "people like that" attitude is not > common in FreeBSD, so I don't plan to go anywhere soon. I guess the "people like that" statement was indeed a little bit unfortunate, since I don't know who should take the right to say "what kind of people" are welcome by this project. One thing I do agree with, though, is that all this licensing stuff is something the project could better do without. Yet, it is important to make sure that we are on "the safe side" with what we are doing. So having a look at the GPL and Stallman's statement is indeed worthwhile. In my opinion this actually doesn't look as bad as some people have claimed. In the end, the Core Team would probably have to make a final decision, but for our preliminary discussion at this point, I guess we are not actually in danger of losing our code to the GPL if GPLed code was to be included in the kernel. This of course only applies if I can believe what Stallman and the GPL have to say, but I guess I can believe that, because I see no reason why Stallman should be lying. > A problem with that statement is that it isn't true; another effect the > GPL has on a binary is to require the source to be licensed under the > GPL too. One is a mere translation of the other and if one is a > GPL-licensed "program", then the other must be too. It's all spelled out > there in the GPL. That part is even clear. I may be dumb, but I interpreted it like this: 1) Kernal binary is under the BSDL and GPL. 2) GPL source code portions that went into the kernel (as well as any modifications made by us) remain under the GPL. 3) BSD licensed source code of the kernel remains BSD licensed. However, do to the GPL implcations, we are required to make sure that our BSDL code is available for free, along with the GPL code mentioned in 2). Now that our code has always been available for free, I guess that basically means, well, nothing new for us. I'm not a big friend of the GPL and so I want to make sure that any actions we may take in regards of using GPL code will not cause us serious trouble, but right now, this just doesn't really seem to be the case. Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 2:14:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28CF337B405 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 02:14:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-241.wobline.de [212.68.69.252]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBIAEd703755; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:14:40 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBIAGDX21783; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:16:13 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBIAFG902346; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:15:16 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:15:16 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Craig Harding Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011218111516.B2061@tisys.org> References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <3C1ED086.725352BC@outpost.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C1ED086.725352BC@outpost.co.nz>; from crh@outpost.co.nz on Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 06:13:42PM +1300 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD jodie.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 9:58AM up 24 mins, 1 user, load averages: 0.20, 0.07, 0.02 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 06:13:42PM +1300, Craig Harding stood up and spoke: > > It's a matter of history. After so many endless threads over the last > few years on the evils (or otherwise) of the GPL, usually with Brett > Glass endlessly pushing his point of view to allcomers, I think you'll > find that most people subscribed to -chat are heartily sick of the > subject. Interestingly, looking back, have the past discussions of this issue actually changed anything or have they had any important influence on the Project? I guess not. These threads were probably no more than a little wasted bandwidth. As I have said in a message posted a minute ago, I don't see any immediate dangers. And I take for granted that no one is seriously about to transform FreeBSD into GNU/Linux. Therefore, everything's fine and this discussion may well stop here. Especially a month before a release, I guess we have better things to do: The coders should fix code, the users should test code, the writers should do any remaining work on the documentation. That would do much more help to the project than this GPL discussion, especially since at the moment it seems that we have really no problems to face in this regard (and I'm not going to tear the GPL apart as others have done. Subjective impressions are useless, only objective impressions count, and we are not going to get such a thing here any time soon - luckily, as about the only place to get a definite objective interpretation of something is in Court...). Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 7:44:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A96ED37B416 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:44:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0381.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.126] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GMPb-0001rx-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:44:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1F644C.C1AEFD31@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:44:12 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Not endlessly. But I am persistent because the issue is important > and because FreeBSD is already in deep trouble. The GPL camel is > already in the tent. The camel may be in the camp, but I'm pretty sure there are armed guards around the important tents. 8^). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 8: 0:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AD7037B41C for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:00:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0381.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.126] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GMfI-0005Vu-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:00:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1F6818.4263AD53@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:00:24 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suingwas [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <20011217163427.A2885@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C1DEA69.93892A66@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217231235.028f0710@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > >This is why, when you get down to it, that the eCOS license is a > >significantly better instrumentality of the GNU Manifesto than > >either the GPL or LGPL. > > I disagree. It's not, because the GNU Manifesto calls for the > destruction of programmers' livelihoods and the eCOS license > actually gives them half a chance to make money (though it > is still non-free). You need to read the license again. It clearly demarcs things which are unclear in the GPL, meaning it has a much better chance to hold up in court, and it deals with the issue of patent assigns. My use of the word "instrumentality" was precise and exactly intended. The GNU Manifesto, much like the Unibomber Manifesto, is an argument against "if things continue as the have been". It's intent is clearly the destruction of the _basis_ for the livelihood of programmers and other people who rely on strong intellectual property law. It doesn't specifically target programmers, except as the first tent in which the camel's nose is to be shoved. The GPL is a poor instrumentality of the Manifesto on several points, the number one being its failure to address patents. In other ways, it fails to promote the goals of the Manifesto as an emergent property, which is what a correct instrumentality is supposed to do. If you read both licenses with the consequences of their universal adoption in mind, you will see that the eCOS one has a significantly truer match in consequences to the stated goals of the Manifesto. The main benefit of the lack of patent assigns is that the corporate adoption of the GPL is much higher than it would have been, had it explicitly recognized such assigns. One has to wonder about "or any future version" in this regard, and also about the fact that companies are free to remove that clause, according tot he license, to freeze code at a particular license version. It also begs the question of whether or not code under such a frozen license (e.g. IBM supplied code) would or would not be "compatible with the GPL" as time goes on. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 9:15: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F273337B405 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:14:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13826; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:14:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:14:06 -0700 To: Jeremy Karlson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217222907.028403b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:26 AM 12/18/2001, Jeremy Karlson wrote: >Okay then, I'm curious to see EXACTLY which things need to be "corrected" >in your view. I'm not interested in the GPL-non-GPL debate You should be. Being truly free for all uses is the essence of the BSDs and one of their key strengths. Stallman & Co. would LOVE to see this vital "edge" disappear. So long as there is apathy and a lack of awareness of the GPL's dangers, the BSDs are in danger of being assimilated into the GNU Empire. >(and I'm >putting "corrected" in quotation marks to avoid the battle), but let's see >a list. I'm thinking core stuff only, and I'm assuming (for the moment) >that we're going to continue using GCC, unless you've got other plans. > >If you've got the list, maybe there are some takers here. First and foremost: drivers and kernel modules must be un-GNUed. (See /usr/src/sys/gnu.) This may mean rewriting some of them and/or getting them properly relicensed. Next, we move to the userland. The GPLed stuff here is in /usr/src/gnu and /usr/src/contrib. (Note that in the latter case GPLed software is intermingled with non-GPLed software, contrary to claims that it has been isolated.) Fortunately, there are non-GPLed versions of many of the utilities to be found in the source trees of the other BSDs -- OpenBSD in particular. A few items will need to be rewritten, but not many. The parts that will take the longest to reimplement properly -- it will be a multi-year effort to remove them -- are the toolchain. FreeBSD should never have become dependent upon the GNU tools, because the FSF owns them lock, stock and barrel. The FSF can, at any time, restrict the use or distribution of these tools. (I believe that it is Richard Stallman's plan to wait until GCC wipes out most or all commercial C compilers and then require that all output of the compiler be licensed under the GPL. He cannot pull this "bait and switch" just yet, but in a few years he will be able to. If he does, the projects most at risk are the BSDs. (Bruce Perens has already stated that he wants "Version 3" of the GPL to limit the use of the output of GPLed programs. It's just a matter of waiting until the community's head is fully inserted into the noose.) We must begin planning now for this development, to which the FSF's agenda and Stallman's malice against commercial developers (or anything -- including the BSDs -- that offers them aid and comfort) will inevitably and inexorably lead. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 9:22:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A31837B419 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13912; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:22:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218101449.02a3a360@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:22:05 -0700 To: Nils Holland , "Gary W. Swearingen" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <20011218110645.A2061@tisys.org> References: <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:06 AM 12/18/2001, Nils Holland wrote: >One thing I do agree with, though, >is that all this licensing stuff is something the project could better do >without. I agree 100%! And the only way to be free of it is simply not to incorporate GPLed code. Otherwise, we WILL be bitten. As I've mentioned in an earlier posting, it is a fundamental part of the FSF's agenda and philosophy to oppose not only the existence of commercial developers but also the existence of ANYTHING that offers aid or comfort to these "enemies." (Yes, that means the BSDs, since they offer an alternative to developers who want to use freely available code rather than reimplementing -- needlessly -- from scratch.) This makes the presence of the GPL -- the FSF's primary instrument of warfare against all that it does not control -- a clear and present danger to the BSDs. To end the licensing concerns once and for all, we must remove the GPL. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 9:23:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC0D37B416 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:23:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13932; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:23:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218102239.02998410@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:23:29 -0700 To: Nils Holland , Craig Harding From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011218111516.B2061@tisys.org> References: <3C1ED086.725352BC@outpost.co.nz> <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <3C1ED086.725352BC@outpost.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:15 AM 12/18/2001, Nils Holland wrote: >As I have said in a message posted a minute ago, I don't see any immediate >dangers. The immediate danger is complacency. Stallman, Perens, and company are relying upon this complacency. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 9:24:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F65837B405 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:24:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13950; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:24:30 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218102351.02841f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:24:17 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C1F644C.C1AEFD31@mindspring.com> References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:44 AM 12/18/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >The camel may be in the camp, but I'm pretty sure there are armed >guards around the important tents. 8^). The camel is in the kernel -- the innermost sanctum. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 10:35:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 269CF37B428 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:35:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-166.wobline.de [212.68.69.174]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBIIZ7727690; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:35:07 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBIIagX23484; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:36:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBIIZjn23783; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:35:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:35:10 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Brett Glass Cc: Jeremy Karlson , Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011218193510.A23697@tisys.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217222907.028403b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 10:14:06AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD jodie.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 7:21PM up 9:47, 1 user, load averages: 0.22, 0.08, 0.02 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 10:14:06AM -0700, Brett Glass stood up and spoke: > > The parts that will take the longest to reimplement properly -- it will > be a multi-year effort to remove them -- are the toolchain. FreeBSD should > never have become dependent upon the GNU tools, because the FSF owns them > lock, stock and barrel. The FSF can, at any time, restrict the use or > distribution of these tools. (I believe that it is Richard Stallman's plan > to wait until GCC wipes out most or all commercial C compilers and then > require that all output of the compiler be licensed under the GPL. He > cannot pull this "bait and switch" just yet, but in a few years he will > be able to. If he does, the projects most at risk are the BSDs. (Bruce > Perens has already stated that he wants "Version 3" of the GPL to limit > the use of the output of GPLed programs. It's just a matter of waiting > until the community's head is fully inserted into the noose.) We must begin > planning now for this development, to which the FSF's agenda and > Stallman's malice against commercial developers (or anything -- including > the BSDs -- that offers them aid and comfort) will inevitably and > inexorably lead. May I ask, just out of interest, how it comes that you have *such a strong* dislike against the FSF, GPL and RMS that you portray them as the ultimate devils? As I have already said, I'm not the biggest fan of the GPL either, and the licensing discussion certainly is of at least some importance, but I would like to understand your reasons for actually coming up with such *diabolic* theories. Furthermore, I don't currently see a legally or real-world enforcible way to restirct the output of GPLed software. If I only use some GPLed software in order to write something down and then print it, I don't think that a license can force my output to fall under the same license. As such, I guess that if I wrote myself a C program and compiled it, I don't believe that any license would serious (legally) be able to require that my output also falls under the GPL automatically. These are, I think, some weird theories - at least I have not seen any signs of them being true so far. Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 11:42: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 142AD37B41A for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:42:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15867; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:41:40 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218122933.02806b90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:41:35 -0700 To: Nils Holland From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: Jeremy Karlson , Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011218193510.A23697@tisys.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217222907.028403b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:35 AM 12/18/2001, Nils Holland wrote: >May I ask, just out of interest, how it comes that you have *such a strong* >dislike against the FSF, GPL and RMS I don't particularly like them, but my messages here don't stem from a personal dislike. My postings are motivated by a thorough understanding of their history, ideology, and goals and a desire for these things NOT to affect the BSDs. >that you portray them as the ultimate devils? I merely report their stated intentions. If you think that, because they have these intentions, they are the "ultimate devils," you will probably want to oppose their efforts. >As I have already said, I'm not the biggest fan of the GPL either, >and the licensing discussion certainly is of at least some importance, but >I would like to understand your reasons for actually coming up with such >*diabolic* theories. Again, YOU used the word "diabolic," not me. I'm merely pointing out what Stallman, Perens, and the FSF have EXPLICITLY SAID they want to do, and the likely ways in which they will try to accomplish it. For more information on the motivations behind the GPL, read "The GNU Manifesto" (the earlier versions, not the "sanitized" one which is on the FSF's Web site) and Steven Levy's book "Hackers." Or catch RMS in a moment when he believes that he is not speaking "on the record." >Furthermore, I don't currently see a legally or real-world enforcible way >to restirct the output of GPLed software. Perens talked about this at the 1999 LinuxWorld. (I have a tape of the talk, but not a transcript, though I've been meaning to transcribe it.) The intent is to use the notion of a "performance" of a work, which is well entrenched in copyright law. The output of a compiler would be a "performance" whose copying and distribution could be restricted. So would the output of a Web server that used GPLed software. In the case of the compiler, there's also another issue. Compilers build the compiled program from snippets of code contained within themselves. Thus, the output of a GPLed compiler could, according to copyright law, be considered considered to be GPLed as well. Originally, Bison was licensed in this way, but the FSF backed off. It will have no reason to back off, however, once GCC has a monopoly. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 11:43:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B817937B416 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:43:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16GQ91-0005d0-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:43:19 -0800 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:43:18 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: <20011218110645.A2061@tisys.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Nils Holland wrote: > 3) BSD licensed source code of the kernel remains BSD licensed. However, do > to the GPL implcations, we are required to make sure that our BSDL code is > available for free, along with the GPL code mentioned in 2). Now that our Just because BSD code is available doesn't mean it has to be available. (Notice that the license allows for redistribution in binary forms without source.) > code has always been available for free, I guess that basically means, > well, nothing new for us. But what if I use the BSD code and integrate it with my own code and I don't want to make the code for the resulting project available? Of course, a company could manually go through all code and rewrite the code with conflicting licenses. But that is a hassle -- many want to use the BSD code in the first place because it is (supposed to be) clean. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 11:48:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7215737B42F for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:47:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15978; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:47:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124204.02812700@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:47:36 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C1F98BC.7045E632@mindspring.com> References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218102351.02841f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:27 PM 12/18/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >No, it's not. It's not in the boot path, and it's not in the >required for installation path. That's only one very restrictive definition of "in the kernel." While it is true that the code is not loaded unless needed, this is true of many integral parts of operating systems. The GPLed code is compiled every time you compile the kernel and is dynamically linked to it. (As you know, the FSF considers dynamic linking to make two pieces of code a single unit.) The code is referred to in the kernel's internal tables as a part that can be loaded at will. The the kernel is fully aware that it can bring in the code in response to certain conditions just like any other driver or module. In short, the GPLed code is integrated. It is part of the kernel. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 11:52:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4E8237B41A for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:52:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16058; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:52:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124903.02874100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:52:11 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , Nils Holland From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: Jeremy Karlson , Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C1F9B9C.789A155E@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217222907.028403b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> <20011218193510.A23697@tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:40 PM 12/18/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >Right now, there is a library which all compiled programs get linked >with in order to obtain the startup code. > >There is a special exception for this library, but in effect, all >programs are linked with this code, with the exception of the >standalone programs (boot, etc.), and the kernel. > >If the license on this code were changed, then anything compiled >with the GNU toolchain could come under the influence of the GPL, >in a future revision of the compiler, of if someone chose to use >the "or newer version" clause of the lciense. > >That said, I think this is incredibly unlikely, since the people >maintaining EGCS and glibc have already said "no" to similar >requests regarding the compiler and the "reference implementation" >of the C library. Dare we risk this? Remember, the FSF owns the code 100%. If Richard and Brad say that it to be licensed in a particular way it does not matter what anyone else would like. Their recent remarks suggest that they are merely waiting for what they feel is an opportune moment. They have stated, in a recent interview posted on Slashdot, the FSF's official stance: that programmers should not be ALLOWED to publish code under any license other than the GPL. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 11:52:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA19537B41B for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:52:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16240 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2001 19:52:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Dec 2001 19:52:37 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124204.02812700@localhost> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:52:23 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Craig Harding , Terry Lambert Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18-Dec-01 Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:27 PM 12/18/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > >>No, it's not. It's not in the boot path, and it's not in the >>required for installation path. > > That's only one very restrictive definition of "in the kernel." > While it is true that the code is not loaded unless needed, this > is true of many integral parts of operating systems. > > The GPLed code is compiled every time you compile the kernel and > is dynamically linked to it. (As you know, the FSF considers > dynamic linking to make two pieces of code a single unit.) The code > is referred to in the kernel's internal tables as a part that can be > loaded at will. The the kernel is fully aware that it can bring in > the code in response to certain conditions just like any other driver > or module. In short, the GPLed code is integrated. It is part of the > kernel. Actually, no, the kernel doesn't know about loading the math emulator. Not to mention that we have two of them. Instead, the loader can have code that detects if a FPU is present or not and arranges to load one of the two available math emulators (which one depends on what the user chooses). When the kernel starts, it "discovers" any other modules that were loaded with it and links them in. It's just a generic interface for dynamically linking modules into the kernel, and this just happens to be one such module that can be optionally linked into the kernel. > --Brett -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 11:57:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4823237B419; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16124; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:56:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218125508.00d9b100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:56:44 -0700 To: John Baldwin From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, Craig Harding , Terry Lambert In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124204.02812700@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:52 PM 12/18/2001, John Baldwin wrote: >Actually, no, the kernel doesn't know about loading the math emulator. Not to >mention that we have two of them. I was referring to some of the other code, including ext2fs. The GPLed math emulator is no longer needed at all, because the BSD-licensed one is quite good. The GPLed one should be scrubbed from the tree as it is no longer useful and is extra work to maintain (if it is being maintained at all). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 12:11:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (66-188-92-95.mad.wi.charter.com [66.188.92.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAEAA37B41B for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:11:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBIKA9739621; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:10:09 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:10:09 -0600 (CST) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> To: reed@reedmedia.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Cc: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Nils Holland wrote: >> code has always been available for free, I guess that basically means, >> well, nothing new for us. > >But what if I use the BSD code and integrate it with my own code and I >don't want to make the code for the resulting project available? In that case, you do a "rm -rf /usr/src/sys/gnu", and that removes all the GPL bits from your kernel. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 12:11:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail12.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B724E37B41A for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:11:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16827 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2001 20:11:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Dec 2001 20:11:40 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218125508.00d9b100@localhost> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:11:25 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: Terry Lambert , Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18-Dec-01 Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:52 PM 12/18/2001, John Baldwin wrote: > >>Actually, no, the kernel doesn't know about loading the math emulator. Not >>to >>mention that we have two of them. > > I was referring to some of the other code, including ext2fs. This is again, autoloaded by mount when you try to mount an ext2fs filesystem by using a generic name-based scheme. It has no specific knowledge of ext2fs at all, and the kernel still does not autoload the module. > The GPLed math emulator is no longer needed at all, because the > BSD-licensed one is quite good. The GPLed one should be scrubbed from > the tree as it is no longer useful and is extra work to maintain (if it > is being maintained at all). Actually, it's not needed because it's only used on 386's and 486sx's, which aren't but so widely used these days. FreeBSD 5.0 won't support floating point on either without a custom kernel until it grows autoloading support in the loader. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 12:22:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from primus.vsservices.com (primus.vsservices.com [63.66.136.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 741CE37B428; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:22:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from prime.vsservices.com (conr-adsl-dhcp-26-38.txucom.net [209.34.26.38]) by primus.vsservices.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBIKM3C34974; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:22:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gclarkii@vsservices.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: GB Clark II To: Brett Glass , John Baldwin Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:22:03 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Craig Harding , Terry Lambert References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124204.02812700@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218125508.00d9b100@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218125508.00d9b100@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0112181422030A.65128@prime.vsservices.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday 18 December 2001 13:56, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:52 PM 12/18/2001, John Baldwin wrote: > >Actually, no, the kernel doesn't know about loading the math emulator. > > Not to mention that we have two of them. > > I was referring to some of the other code, including ext2fs. > > The GPLed math emulator is no longer needed at all, because the > BSD-licensed one is quite good. The GPLed one should be scrubbed from > the tree as it is no longer useful and is extra work to maintain (if it > is being maintained at all). > > --Brett > Brett, Did you read my earlier message? The math emualtor is NOT under the GPL! It has a restrictive license in that it can only be used under FreeBSD/NetBSD and 386BSD, has an advertising clause and requires distribution of the source of the emulator. Nothing else. The reason it was added (by me) was that in 1994 the original emulator and the original libm (which why we also have the sun libm) could not pass all of the floating point tests in the major FP test suits. I wanted to run ghostscript on a 386 and could not do it, so I found out a way to do so. Has the way that FP is done changed in the last 7 years? GB -- GB Clark II | Roaming FreeBSD Admin gclarkii@VSServices.COM | General Geek CTHULU for President - Why choose the lesser of two evils? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 12:28:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from primus.vsservices.com (primus.vsservices.com [63.66.136.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495DA37B405; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:28:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from prime.vsservices.com (conr-adsl-dhcp-26-38.txucom.net [209.34.26.38]) by primus.vsservices.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBIKSrC35046; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:28:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gclarkii@vsservices.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: GB Clark II To: John Baldwin , Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:28:54 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: Terry Lambert , Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0112181428540B.65128@prime.vsservices.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I also just checked the "BSD" FP emulator and it is also a linux import, albet from back in 1991, not under the GPL and was done by William Jolitz. There is NO license associated with it that I can find and is copyright 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Might be something in the old mailing list archives. Last modified in 1999. GB -- GB Clark II | Roaming FreeBSD Admin gclarkii@VSServices.COM | General Geek CTHULU for President - Why choose the lesser of two evils? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 13: 6:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C38937B416 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E1DBEFC; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19157; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:06:08 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBIL6rp65119; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:06:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM's intentions with JFS (was: IBM suing (was: RMS Suing was [SUGGESTION] - JFS for FreeBSD)) References: <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <20011213051012.Y56723-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <3C1875D6.5DE4F996@mindspring.com> <3C186381.6AB07090@yahoo.com> <20011214122837.O3448@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C19807D.C441F084@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011214175450.02da2a90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011215232233.00e74cc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011216221810.031b6820@localhost> <20011217163427.A2885@monorchid.lemis.com> <3C1DEA69.93892A66@mindspring.com> <3C1EA8DD.E9E76375@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 18 Dec 2001 13:06:53 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C1EA8DD.E9E76375@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > This is why, when you get down to it, that the eCOS license is a > significantly better instrumentality of the GNU Manifesto than > either the GPL or LGPL. Thank you for these little clues which you drop occasionally. I've been collecting them, and plan to get them up on some web pages someday in expanded form. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 13: 8:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A27F37B41A for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:08:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-325.wobline.de [212.68.71.46]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBIL86708381; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:08:07 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBIL9gX24268; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:09:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBIL8lg25173; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:08:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:08:12 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011218220812.A25090@tisys.org> References: <20011218110645.A2061@tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from reed@reedmedia.net on Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 11:43:18AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD jodie.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 9:53PM up 12:20, 1 user, load averages: 0.20, 0.16, 0.07 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 11:43:18AM -0800, Jeremy C. Reed stood up and spoke: > > Just because BSD code is available doesn't mean it has to be available. > (Notice that the license allows for redistribution in binary forms without > source.) Exactly it doesn't *have* to be available right now, but it is. A dual-licensed kernel would require that - at least the "official" version of the code - be available, which will probably always be the case, unless we close down our CVS / CVSup and FTP servers, which doesn't seem to be something we are planning to do. > But what if I use the BSD code and integrate it with my own code and I > don't want to make the code for the resulting project available? In that case, you'd have to use the FreeBSD code *without* any GPLed portions in there. That way, your additions and binaries do not have to be available, as removing all GPL code in your work should also terminate the dual license. In the above example, a problem would only arise if some GPLed piece of code actually provided important core functionality, so that you could not easily do without it... Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 13:21:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E65D237B417 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-195.wobline.de [212.68.69.206]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBILL9709320; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:21:09 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBILMjX24338; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:22:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBILLn825419; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:21:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:21:13 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Brett Glass Cc: Jeremy Karlson , Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011218222113.A25396@tisys.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217222907.028403b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> <20011218193510.A23697@tisys.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218122933.02806b90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218122933.02806b90@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 12:41:35PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD jodie.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 10:18PM up 12:45, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 12:41:35PM -0700, Brett Glass stood up and spoke: > > For more information on the motivations behind the GPL, read "The GNU > Manifesto" (the earlier versions, not the "sanitized" one which is > on the FSF's Web site) and Steven Levy's book "Hackers." Or catch > RMS in a moment when he believes that he is not speaking "on the > record." A good idea indeed! Do you have an idea where I can find the "earlier" version of the GNU Manifesto? I would really like to have a look at it so that I can better understand what you are pointing out and make up my own mind about it. Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 13:42:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 194A737B416 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:42:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16GS08-0005iC-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:42:16 -0800 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:42:16 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: <20011218222113.A25396@tisys.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Nils Holland wrote: > > For more information on the motivations behind the GPL, read "The GNU > > Manifesto" (the earlier versions, not the "sanitized" one which is > A good idea indeed! Do you have an idea where I can find the "earlier" > version of the GNU Manifesto? I would really like to have a look at it so > that I can better understand what you are pointing out and make up my own > mind about it. My printed copy of the GNU Manifesto is in the comb-binded book "GNU Emacs Manual" from March 1987 (pages 239 - 249). It is yellow, 7.5" x 10" with a drawing of bearded man in a metal armor riding a gnu. The back cover has a strange picture of a nervous, angry man in a suit running with a "license agreement" in his hand and dollar bills and floppy disks falling from his other hand. (I can't read the artist's signature; it is dated 1986.) On page 244, the GNU Manifesto says: "Don't programmers deserve a reward for their creativity?" If anything deserves a reward, it is social contribution. Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use the results. If programmers deserve to be rewarded for creating innovative programs, by the same token they deserve to be punished if they restrict the use of these programs. punished ... The whole Manifesto is amazing. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 14:18:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F27237B405 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:18:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D70D5BF94; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:18:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11300; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:18:29 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBIMJEg65125; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:19:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 18 Dec 2001 14:19:14 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> Message-ID: <0gn10gyxwd.10g@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 34 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > Absolutely. It means the difference between earning a living and > being deprived of one (which is one of the explicit goals of the > GPL; see Stallman's "GNU Manifesto"). To be fair, he does want software developers to earn a living, but he wants them to be paid by the hour or by the job, rather than living off license royalties. It's a common socialist mindset that desparages the capitalistic things like capital and investment and risk and winners and loosers and especially profits. No doubt he also has trouble with our entertainers making obscene money because many people want to pay ten bucks to see a trashy movie. It'd be much better (in this mindset) to just pay them up front to make and show the movie, and then let everyone have the freedom to see it or not. The other big motivation of the Manifesto is to discourage the development of software which people are not allowed to repair and enhance and pass along fixes and enhancements, by having the guild of copyleftists hoard their software so it can't be used in non-guild software. Unfortunately, he also decided to punish developers who WILL allow repair and enhancement (eg, FreeBSD) but won't join in the punishment of others; that is way the GPL has no virus-escape clause for other open software, which it easily could do. I don't understand why more people don't find this bullying of other open ("free") software developers distasteful. > Not endlessly. But I am persistent because the issue is important > and because FreeBSD is already in deep trouble. The GPL camel is > already in the tent. Wrong animal. It's a gnu. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 14:22:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8043837B41A for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:22:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-339.wobline.de [212.68.71.60]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBIMMH714020; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:22:17 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBIMNsX24651; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:23:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBIMMxv26187; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:22:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:22:24 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011218232224.A26122@tisys.org> References: <20011218222113.A25396@tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from reed@reedmedia.net on Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 01:42:16PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD jodie.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 11:16PM up 13:42, 1 user, load averages: 0.09, 0.03, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 01:42:16PM -0800, Jeremy C. Reed stood up and spoke: > > If anything deserves a reward, it is social contribution. Creativity can > be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use > the results. If programmers deserve to be rewarded for creating innovative > programs, by the same token they deserve to be punished if they restrict > the use of these programs. > > punished ... > > The whole Manifesto is amazing. The word "punished" in the manifesto is indeed amazing. I guess I'll do some online research and see if I can get a hold of the complete, original version somewhere. This has little to do with the basic issue that started this thread, but as I have only read the GPL as far as the FSF documents are concerned, I'm now indeed motivated to find out what else they have to say, because that will probably help me understand some of the views expressed here. As said before, I by far prefer the BSDL over the GPL, but I'm still motivated now to get myself a little more information about the people and aims that stand behind the GPL... Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 14:36:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net (deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A38E337B405 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:36:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22] helo=hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net) by deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GQBh-0000Ty-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:46:05 -0800 Received: from [209.179.200.2] (helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GQ6S-0004qv-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:40:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1F9B9C.789A155E@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:40:12 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: Brett Glass , Jeremy Karlson , Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217222907.028403b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> <20011218193510.A23697@tisys.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: > Furthermore, I don't currently see a legally or real-world enforcible way > to restirct the output of GPLed software. If I only use some GPLed software > in order to write something down and then print it, I don't think that a > license can force my output to fall under the same license. As such, I > guess that if I wrote myself a C program and compiled it, I don't believe > that any license would serious (legally) be able to require that my output > also falls under the GPL automatically. These are, I think, some weird > theories - at least I have not seen any signs of them being true so far. Right now, there is a library which all compiled programs get linked with in order to obtain the startup code. There is a special exception for this library, but in effect, all programs are linked with this code, with the exception of the standalone programs (boot, etc.), and the kernel. If the license on this code were changed, then anything compiled with the GNU toolchain could come under the influence of the GPL, in a future revision of the compiler, of if someone chose to use the "or newer version" clause of the lciense. That said, I think this is incredibly unlikely, since the people maintaining EGCS and glibc have already said "no" to similar requests regarding the compiler and the "reference implementation" of the C library. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 16:14:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3629D37B419 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:14:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1D33C23C; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:14:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17078; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:14:47 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBJ0FVa65134; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:15:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Nils Holland Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217222907.028403b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> <20011218193510.A23697@tisys.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 18 Dec 2001 16:15:31 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011218193510.A23697@tisys.org> Message-ID: Lines: 28 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland writes: > Furthermore, I don't currently see a legally or real-world enforcible way > to restirct the output of GPLed software. I don't expect to see that happen, but I'm quite sure it's possible. AFAIK, people can agree to any legal activity as conditions on the licensing of copyrights (or any rights) in forming a license contract (or even in a non-contract license) and courts will honor it. Like "you may modify and distribute this software only if you wear a red hat on odd-numbered days". Or "...only if you put copyrightable output of the program under GPL". They're just conditions to which the licensee agrees in return for the use of the copyrights; they're a kind of fee. (Of course, many outputs of programs are uncopyrightable translations of program input (eg, a compiler), but many ouputs are not (eg, a word processor).) It's rather like how the M$EULA can have you agree that you will not disassemble the code, even though that would be a legal activity in the absense of such term. It's a little different, as savvy copyleftists would be quick to note, in that the M$EULA is a license of both copyrights and the right to possess or execute, while the GPL seems to be a license of only copyrights. I was going to say that since this seems important to copyleftists they probably wouldn't change it easily, but since there probably is no GOOD reason, maybe they'd give it up to gain something more important. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 20:59:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC33437B405 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:59:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AC24C02C; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:59:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA25364; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:59:04 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBJ4xlH65190; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:59:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Stephen J Bevan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <0gn10gyxwd.10g@localhost.localdomain> <15391.50782.619686.198748@apathy.etunnels.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 18 Dec 2001 20:59:47 -0800 In-Reply-To: <15391.50782.619686.198748@apathy.etunnels.com> Message-ID: <736673ztx8.673@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 42 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stephen J Bevan writes: > Gary W. Swearingen writes: > > Unfortunately, he also decided to punish developers who WILL allow > > repair and enhancement (eg, FreeBSD) but won't join in the punishment of > > others; that is way the GPL has no virus-escape clause for other open > > software, which it easily could do. I don't understand why more people > > don't find this bullying of other open ("free") software developers > > distasteful. > > Perhaps, because they don't see it as bullying? No, that can't be it because they can fail to see it as bullying and still find it distasteful. I welcome a thoughtful answer as well as an answer to why more people don't find this distasteful ploy to be bullying. > Is someone forcing you to use GPL software? No. I can sit and stare at a wall and not be forced to use it. But if I want to use the Internet or keep my ISP or use FreeBSD on my desktop or aviod re-writing a Linux kernel driver from scratch for FreeBSD, then yes, I'm being forced to use GPL software, so someone must be forcing me. You surely don't think that "force" is only exerted by muscles and firearms, do you? Money and inconvenience are the more usual weapons of bullies. For another example, consider Mr. Gates in his business dealings. Has anyone ever been forced to deal with Mr. Gates or his company? Have you? BTW, I forgot to note something that you should like. Near-PD licensors of open source software don't have to join in the punishment of closed source developers to a 100% level when incorporating GPL code into a collective or derivative work (at least as the GPL is commonly interpreted; there is only a small risk of infringement). They may dual-license the non-GPL parts of the derivative, as long as the more liberal license is not GPL-incompatible. Or they may put it into the PD; but in that case, unscrupulous copyleftists are free (and more likely) to remove notice of it's status as truly free software. Dual licensing might be an acceptable compromise for collective works, but for typical derivative work, there is little hope of keeping the BSDL code identified and one might as well become a pure copyleftist. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 22: 4:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net (deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C6E37B416 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:04:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.22] helo=hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net) by deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GPy9-0004bC-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:32:05 -0800 Received: from [209.179.200.2] (helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GPua-0004AI-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:28:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1F98BC.7045E632@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:27:56 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218102351.02841f00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > >The camel may be in the camp, but I'm pretty sure there are armed > >guards around the important tents. 8^). > > The camel is in the kernel -- the innermost sanctum. No, it's not. It's not in the boot path, and it's not in the required for installation path. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 22:26:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE3837B417 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA23457; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:26:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218175116.00d694a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:26:00 -0700 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: References: <20011218222113.A25396@tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:42 PM 12/18/2001, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: >My printed copy of the GNU Manifesto is in the comb-binded book "GNU Emacs >Manual" from March 1987 (pages 239 - 249). It is yellow, 7.5" x 10" with a >drawing of bearded man Richard Stallman >in a metal armor riding a gnu. The back cover has a >strange picture of a nervous, angry man in a suit running with a "license >agreement" in his hand and dollar bills and floppy disks falling from his >other hand. (I can't read the artist's signature; it is dated 1986.) It's the same artist who drew the "Apple logo with teeth" that Stallman was circulating (on buttons) during the last West Coast Computer Faire. (This was when Apple sued Lotus for "look and feel" copyright infringement.) >On page 244, the GNU Manifesto says: > > "Don't programmers deserve a reward for their creativity?" > > If anything deserves a reward, it is social contribution. Creativity can > be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use > the results. If programmers deserve to be rewarded for creating innovative > programs, by the same token they deserve to be punished if they restrict > the use of these programs. > >punished ... > >The whole Manifesto is amazing. It is. Note that this document was toned down several times as Stallman honed his written propaganda; the version on the FSF Web site was changed to hide his intentions, which have not changed. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 22:58:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B334A37B41A for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:58:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA23748; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:58:00 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180158.00d6fc50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:58:00 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C1FA272.D9679E44@mindspring.com> References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218102351.02841f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124204.02812700@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:09 PM 12/18/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >They aren't integral, if they aren't in the boot or installation >path, since they are not required to get a minimally functional >system. They are still integrated even if the system can boot without them. See the Microsoft case. >This is a problem for the distributors of already binary code that >is GPL'ed rather than LGPL'ed. As it is, FreeBSD does not distribute >with binary code created this way, since to do so would potentially >cause legal problems. It is up to the user's discretion whether or >not they choose to create a kerne with static or dynamic GPL'ed >modules. True. But the GENERIC kernel comes with this module dynamically linked and ready to bring in. And the average user cannot easily remove it. >By this argument, installation of GPL'ed code, which is linked against >system libraries, and uses kernel services on non-GPL'ed OSs is at >risk. I don't believe this. It is a risk. Not long ago, a company wanted to use a GPLed CODEC for audio. So, they took a GPLed CODEC, made it into a library (a DLL for Windows for which it released source), and then linked to it completely dynamically at runtime. The FSF immediately threatened to sue and forced the company -- which was small and could not fight the FSF with its huge war chest -- to back down. The incident was documented on Slashdot. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 18 23:27:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF4337B405 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:27:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA23980; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:27:00 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:27:00 -0700 To: Jonathan Lemon , reed@reedmedia.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:10 PM 12/18/2001, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >In that case, you do a "rm -rf /usr/src/sys/gnu", and that removes >all the GPL bits from your kernel. It removes it from the source. And then, if you try to recompile, you get errors that say, "there's a piece missing." Which suggests that it's part of the kernel. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 0:53:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 040AF37B419 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:53:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0155.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.155] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GcTS-0000iC-00; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:53:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3C20557A.C9AE1720@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 00:53:14 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218102351.02841f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124204.02812700@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180158.00d6fc50@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > They are still integrated even if the system can boot without > them. See the Microsoft case. I'm not aware of any "GPL v. Microsoft" case... > True. But the GENERIC kernel comes with this module dynamically > linked and ready to bring in. And the average user cannot easily > remove it. You aren't making sense here, unless "this module" means something other then EXT2FS or the FPU emulator, since as has been demonstrated, neither of those is GPL'ed. If there is a GPL'ed module distributed as a binary, and it is linked against the kernel already (I suspect it is only linked at load time), then it would be the module and the distribution of which it is a part, which is illegal, not the kernel against which it is linked. To my knowledge, however, there is nothing GPL'ed that is distributed like this. There might be room for a claim that there is an attempt to subvert the GPL by delaying linking until a user action is performed; it's very grey whether or not that would be a legal way of escaping the GPL (and will probably remain so, until and unless it is tested in court). > >By this argument, installation of GPL'ed code, which is linked > >against system libraries, and uses kernel services on non-GPL'ed > >OSs is at risk. I don't believe this. > > It is a risk. Not long ago, a company wanted to use a GPLed CODEC > for audio. So, they took a GPLed CODEC, made it into a library > (a DLL for Windows for which it released source), and then linked > to it completely dynamically at runtime. The FSF immediately > threatened to sue and forced the company -- which was small and > could not fight the FSF with its huge war chest -- to back down. > The incident was documented on Slashdot. I'd like to get a URL for this. There's precedent for code that was developed to an interface exhibited only by the GPL'ed code. Also, GPL'ed code is very different from LGPL'ed code, as there is no "relink clause" in the GPL (as you know), but there is specific exception made for Os services. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 1: 9:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from torpy.unbc.ca (torpy.unbc.ca [142.207.144.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0FBD37B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:09:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ugrad.unbc.ca (ugrad.unbc.ca [142.207.112.20]) by torpy.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA4473847; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:09:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (karlj000@localhost) by ugrad.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA28635; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:09:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ugrad.unbc.ca: karlj000 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:09:18 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Karlson To: Brett Glass Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Okay then, I'm curious to see EXACTLY which things need to be "corrected" > >in your view. I'm not interested in the GPL-non-GPL debate > You should be. Being truly free for all uses is the essence of the > BSDs and one of their key strengths. Okay, then let me rephrase that. I'm not interested in getting into the goodness/badness of the GPL right now. I do have preferences (which tend to lean against the GPL), and I do care about this particular OS and it's licensing. I am sort-of following this thread, and the stuff about components already being GPL caught my eye. > Stallman & Co. would LOVE to see this vital "edge" disappear. So long > as there is apathy and a lack of awareness of the GPL's dangers, the > BSDs are in danger of being assimilated into the GNU Empire. I like to think that I have an understanding of the differences between the licenses, I have read them. I do agree that the BSD license is more free, GPL is a virus, blah, blah. (We've heard them all before.) I am not apathetic to such a cause, and I think that working to make this system "pure" (core stuff) is a noble cause. I don't pretend, to be an expert on every part of this OS and what comes from where. > First and foremost: drivers and kernel modules must be un-GNUed. (See > /usr/src/sys/gnu.) This may mean rewriting some of them and/or getting them > properly relicensed. I'm not a kernel hacker, and there's no way I could do anything in here. > Next, we move to the userland. The GPLed stuff here is in /usr/src/gnu and > /usr/src/contrib. (Note that in the latter case GPLed software is intermingled > with non-GPLed software, contrary to claims that it has been isolated.) > Fortunately, there are non-GPLed versions of many of the utilities to be > found in the source trees of the other BSDs -- OpenBSD in particular. A few > items will need to be rewritten, but not many. What keeps some of these from being "theived" from OpenBSD? Just that someone hasn't gotten around to it? > The parts that will take the longest to reimplement properly -- it will > be a multi-year effort to remove them -- are the toolchain. FreeBSD should > never have become dependent upon the GNU tools, because the FSF owns them > lock, stock and barrel. The FSF can, at any time, restrict the use or > distribution of these tools. (I believe that it is Richard Stallman's plan I agree that it would be nice to have our own stuff. But realistically, whose got the time (or the energy, or the desire, ...) to rewrite something like GCC? I'm not as set against using of tools. IANAL (this phrase should be in the dictionary, it gets used so often), but I don't believe that RMS could (or would) change licenses on software that has been released. We could snag a copy of GCC before the "license change" and just continue on with it under the GPL. Isn't that the point of the GPL - to restrict the ability of someone to do something proprietary, even if it is Stallman himself? > to wait until GCC wipes out most or all commercial C compilers and then > require that all output of the compiler be licensed under the GPL. He FUD. No way. I'm sure that he wants to do this, but even the Linux users would be up in arms over this one. There would be code forks like you've never seen, and there would be new tools written. > be able to. If he does, the projects most at risk are the BSDs. (Bruce How are we at any more of a risk than anyone else? And you don't think that other compilers (such as DJGPP, or something) would change their license and be ported? GCC is not, and will not, be the only compiler out there. > Perens has already stated that he wants "Version 3" of the GPL to limit > the use of the output of GPLed programs. It's just a matter of waiting > until the community's head is fully inserted into the noose.) We must begin > planning now for this development, to which the FSF's agenda and > Stallman's malice against commercial developers (or anything -- including > the BSDs -- that offers them aid and comfort) will inevitably and > inexorably lead. I mean this in the nicest possible way - you're paranoid. :-) I agree that non-reliance is ideal... Who doesn't want to stand on their own? But it's not entirely feasible. It's easy to see that the BSDs don't have the combined manpower of Linux and the popularity of the GPL. We have to make due with what we have. I might be willing to "step up to the plate" to rewrite some userland programs, and I'm probably not alone. Of course, I expect that the ones that need to be rewritten are the "tough" ones and probably require a lot of work. Anyway, I'm sorry I got involved in this, because I appear to have brought this conversation full-circle to the beginning as it was apparently starting to wind down... Sorry, all. :-) -- Jeremy The difference between legal separation and divorce is that legal separation gives the man time to hide his money. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 1:17:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from torpy.unbc.ca (torpy.unbc.ca [142.207.144.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E7037B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:17:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ugrad.unbc.ca (ugrad.unbc.ca [142.207.112.20]) by torpy.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA4491250; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:17:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (karlj000@localhost) by ugrad.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA28709; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:16:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ugrad.unbc.ca: karlj000 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:16:51 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Karlson To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Of course, a company could manually go through all code and rewrite > the code with conflicting licenses. But that is a hassle -- many want to > use the BSD code in the first place because it is (supposed to be) > clean. This is basically off-topic and I find it kinda humourous, but this has happened before in the history of BSD. AT&T, anyone? -- Jeremy The difference between legal separation and divorce is that legal separation gives the man time to hide his money. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 1:23:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from torpy.unbc.ca (torpy.unbc.ca [142.207.144.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A0CC37B41B for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ugrad.unbc.ca (ugrad.unbc.ca [142.207.112.20]) by torpy.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA4489570; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (karlj000@localhost) by ugrad.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA28806; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:23:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ugrad.unbc.ca: karlj000 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:23:06 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Karlson To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: <3C1F98BC.7045E632@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >The camel may be in the camp, but I'm pretty sure there are armed > > >guards around the important tents. 8^). > > The camel is in the kernel -- the innermost sanctum. > No, it's not. It's not in the boot path, and it's not in the > required for installation path. Can someone just take the camel back to the zoo? It's starting to smell in here. -- Jeremy The difference between legal separation and divorce is that legal separation gives the man time to hide his money. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 2:19:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A9A37B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 02:19:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-227.wobline.de [212.68.69.238]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBJAIg711901; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:18:42 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBJAKIX27455; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:20:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBJAJHP02305; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:19:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:18:42 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Jeremy Karlson Cc: Brett Glass , Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011219111842.B2186@tisys.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from karlj000@unbc.ca on Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 01:09:18AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD jodie.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 10:41AM up 1:08, 1 user, load averages: 0.46, 0.13, 0.05 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 01:09:18AM -0800, Jeremy Karlson stood up and spoke: > > I might be willing to "step up to the plate" to rewrite some userland > programs, and I'm probably not alone. Of course, I expect that the ones > that need to be rewritten are the "tough" ones and probably require a lot > of work. This is another issue. In theory, this "work" on re-writing what we already have, only to make it GPL-free, would probably be much more needed somewhere else - for example for working on some completely new programs. If we'd stop all our work now and re-write 30% of FreeBSD all over again, we'd waste a whole lot of time. The question is if the GPL is actually threatening us so much that it's worth it. IMHO, as long as we don't start to stuff our kernel full of GPL code (this started the thread) and generally try to minimize our future use of GPL code, I think the answer is NO at this time. However, I do agree that if things are not handled careful, then the answer may become YES very quickly, and that'd be bad... Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 2:38:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5EE837B405 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 02:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-136.wobline.de [212.68.69.144]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id fBJAc6714183; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:38:06 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBJAdjX27544; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:39:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBJAcjp02785; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:38:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:38:09 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Jeremy Karlson Cc: Brett Glass , Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011219113809.A2730@tisys.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> <20011219111842.B2186@tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011219111842.B2186@tisys.org>; from nils@tisys.org on Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 11:18:42AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD jodie.ncptiddische.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Machine-Uptime: 11:29AM up 1:56, 1 user, load averages: 0.07, 0.02, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 11:18:42AM +0100, Nils Holland stood up and spoke: > > This is another issue. In theory, this "work" on re-writing what we already > have, only to make it GPL-free, would probably be much more needed > somewhere else - for example for working on some completely new programs. May I reply to my own message? Ok, well, the stuff mentioned above would indeed have some more weird implcations. Imagine we started to re-write all GPL code currently in use. That would take us, well, let's say a year or two. While the rewrite is in process, there may be some things that users would need much more. Although it isn't true, let's assume that FreeBSD only supported IDE hard disks up to 8.4 GB. Now, this would be something that we'd better get fixed, but as everybody is concentrating in rewriting GPL code, we cannot fix it (replace the hard disk example with anything else that comes to your mind, the effect would be the same). Now, what would happen? Users, who generally care most about the functionality a system has to offer, while BSDL vs. GPL is probably something they don't care about, would leave FreeBSD and go to some other system that does already provide them the functionality they need. After the rewrite, when we can finally look ahead once again, we'd probably have lost a whole bunch of users. Additionally, the FSF guys would probably find us rewriting GPL code very interesting, too! *They* might propagate that not they are the fanatics, but we are, since we basically lock up our project only to get free of any code that is under their license. Practically, FreeBSD is a volunteer driven project. We don't have the resources as big companies do, and therefore, an effort to totally get free of GPL code would indeed be a major waste of resources. What does this tell us? Probably that totally getting rid of GPL code is not practically possible. However, I fully agree with suggestions that say that care must still be taken, in order to prevent the camel / gnu to get into our tent and further than we can possibly stand... Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 4:52:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net (deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88A9037B405; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 04:52:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.12] helo=harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net) by deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GQgp-000189-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:18:15 -0800 Received: from [209.179.200.2] (helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GQcI-0001q4-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:13:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1FA352.6C2F6C8B@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:13:06 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: John Baldwin , chat@FreeBSD.org, Craig Harding Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124204.02812700@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218125508.00d9b100@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > I was referring to some of the other code, including ext2fs. The EXT2FS code is a derivative work of the UFS code; look at the license. [ ... geting rid of the "GNU Math Emulator" ... ] I think you missed the discussion about the license on that code, too... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 5: 5:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB60437B417 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 05:05:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA26551; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 06:05:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218181429.00d6c100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 06:05:00 -0700 To: Nils Holland From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: Jeremy Karlson , Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011218222113.A25396@tisys.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218122933.02806b90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217222907.028403b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> <20011218193510.A23697@tisys.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218122933.02806b90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:21 PM 12/18/2001, Nils Holland wrote: >A good idea indeed! Do you have an idea where I can find the "earlier" >version of the GNU Manifesto? Jeremy has it. If I can find a copy I can OCR it. (As I recall, the old GNU EMACS manual in which it was printed was ring-bound, so it would not be necessary to destroy the book.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 5:18:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2F437B405 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 05:18:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.245.143.40.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.143.40] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Ggbf-0002Us-00; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 05:17:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3C209385.7A853E1A@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 05:17:57 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nils Holland Cc: Jeremy Karlson , Brett Glass , Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The Dirty Little Open Source Secret References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> <20011219111842.B2186@tisys.org> <20011219113809.A2730@tisys.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland wrote: > Imagine we started to re-write all GPL code currently in use. That would > take us, well, let's say a year or two. While the rewrite is in process, > there may be some things that users would need much more. Although it isn't > true, let's assume that FreeBSD only supported IDE hard disks up to 8.4 GB. > Now, this would be something that we'd better get fixed, but as everybody > is concentrating in rewriting GPL code, we cannot fix it (replace the hard > disk example with anything else that comes to your mind, the effect would > be the same). I have been involved either directly or tangentially with the genesis of no less than 7 Open Source projects which are still active. Let me let you in on The Dirty Little Open Source Secret: people work on whatever the hell they want to work on, and what someone thinks a project "needs most" only matters if that person is doing the coding, and then that's only a necessary, not a sufficient, condition. There are only a few well known ways to control this, and it's more a case of herding cats, than anything else: 1) Write the code yourself 2) Refuse to permit commits of code that doesn't mesh with your view of things (most people can't do this) 3) Beg, Plead, Argue, Cajole and/or blackmail 4) Pick a politically correct license for youtr target developer participants 5) Do the design, and get someone else who is bad at design but good at coding to code it for you 6) Assign it as class work/senior project/thesis/dissertation (works best if you are a professor or in charge of interns) 7) Bribe (hiring someone as an employee does wonders for their choice of topics and adjusting their attitude to be more to your liking) 8) Crib the code from somewhere else 9) Fork the project, and hope enough people agree with you, so that if you get hit by a bus (likely driven by someone in the former project), it will outlive you (if it doesn't, congradulations: you started a cult, not a religion) 10) Fast three days and pray for guidance and/or a miracle, such as code delivered to you on a golden CDROM. The only sure way to win supported and volunteers in Open Source projects is to provide all necessary and sufficient conditions: A) Working source code (this is the #1 requirement; learn from the mistakes of others here: declaring a project does not make it so [JFS for FreeBSD; Mozilla; etc.). B) A community o Mailing lists o Web presence o Source code control (learn from mistakes here, too: Open Source Projects have their own, unique, souls; you can't cookie-cutter them and expect something like a Linux to pop up, fully formed, like a child from Cronus' head) C) Continuity (like it or not, you _will_ be hit by a bus, eventually, or people will assume you will, so you better have a means of instilling confidence) D) A cool name doesn't hurt So: arguing about whether or not something is worth doing is OK, but unless you are incredibly persuasive, you are unlikely to get your way. Also, if your goal were to "get rid of GPL code in FreeBSD", you could do a lot worse than #8 (OpenBSD is a good source of code for that). If, on the other hand, you want to prevent that happening, well, your options are a lot more limited, and just preventing it won't get people to work on what you think needs worked on, so you might as well not be as anal about things: chill out, and go with the flow. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 7: 1:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B509D37B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:01:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27646; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:01:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218182449.00d71c00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:01:00 -0700 To: Nils Holland , "Jeremy C. Reed" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011218232224.A26122@tisys.org> References: <20011218222113.A25396@tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:22 PM 12/18/2001, Nils Holland wrote: >The word "punished" in the manifesto is indeed amazing. It also appears in a speech he made in Switzerland (at KTH, I believe) not long ago. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/stallman-kth.html --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 7:10:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C05C837B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:10:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27751; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:10:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218181554.00d6f900@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:10:00 -0700 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <0gn10gyxwd.10g@localhost.localdomain> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:19 PM 12/18/2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >To be fair, he does want software developers to earn a living, but he >wants them to be paid by the hour or by the job, Actually, his stated goal is to go farther than that. He wants to reduce that pay to the point where they can BARELY earn a living. To a level paid by "low-paying" organizations such as academic research labs. In "The GNU Manifesto," Stallman writes: >>For more than ten years, many of the world's best programmers worked at >>the Artificial Intelligence Lab for far less money than they could have >>had anywhere else. They got many kinds of non-monetary rewards: fame and >>appreciation, for example. And creativity is also fun, a reward in itself. >> >>Then most of them left when offered a chance to do the same interesting >>work for a lot of money. >> >>What the facts show is that people will program for reasons other than >>riches; but if given a chance to make a lot of money as well, they will >>come to expect and demand it. Low-paying organizations do poorly in >>competition with high-paying ones, but they do not have to do badly if the >>high-paying ones are banned. In short, as revenge for the dissolution of the MIT AI Lab (Stallman's personal "Nirvana"), Stallman wished to ensure that the programmers who dared to seek better rewards for their work by leaving the Lab cannot attain them. He wishes the same fate for all programmers. He wants "high-paying" jobs for programmers, regardless of skill level, to be "banned." >rather than living off >license royalties. It's a common socialist mindset that desparages the >capitalistic things like capital and investment and risk and winners and >loosers and especially profits. He does seem to harbor a dislike for capitalism as well, but his primary goal appears to be revenge. Remember, Stallman fell apart and had a nervous breakdown as a result of the dissolution of the AI Lab. >The other big motivation of the Manifesto is to discourage the >development of software which people are not allowed to repair and >enhance and pass along fixes and enhancements, by having the guild of >copyleftists hoard their software so it can't be used in non-guild >software. Ironically, he calls commercial developers "hoarders" when in fact the FSF has the largest hoard of software in the world. >Unfortunately, he also decided to punish developers who WILL allow >repair and enhancement (eg, FreeBSD) but won't join in the punishment of >others; that is way the GPL has no virus-escape clause for other open >software, which it easily could do. I don't understand why more people >don't find this bullying of other open ("free") software developers >distasteful. Many do. >Wrong animal. It's a gnu. Also known as a "wildebeest." Coincidence? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 7:18:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (66-188-92-95.mad.wi.charter.com [66.188.92.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 307BA37B41D for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:18:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBJFGVf74947; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:16:31 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:16:31 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Brett Glass Cc: Jonathan Lemon , reed@reedmedia.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 12:27:00AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:10 PM 12/18/2001, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > >In that case, you do a "rm -rf /usr/src/sys/gnu", and that removes > >all the GPL bits from your kernel. > > It removes it from the source. And then, if you try to recompile, > you get errors that say, "there's a piece missing." Which suggests > that it's part of the kernel. But that is only if you try to include those bits. E.g.: kernel + (N)"options XXX" = non-GPL'd kernel. kernel + (N)"options XXX" + "options EXT2FS" = GPL'd kernel. We are in agreement here, right? The key point to note is that *ALL* the GPL bits are optional. Yes it is true that, we don't have a BSD replacement for ext2fs. However, I would lump ext2fs into the same boat as the GPL: undesirable. For things like the loader, ext2fs support has been written from scratch (by yours truly) so there is no GPL code involved. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 7:44:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 808E937B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 07:44:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA28193; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:43:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219083210.00e73270@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:39:44 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C20557A.C9AE1720@mindspring.com> References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218102351.02841f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124204.02812700@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180158.00d6fc50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:53 AM 12/19/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >> They are still integrated even if the system can boot without >> them. See the Microsoft case. > >I'm not aware of any "GPL v. Microsoft" case... No, but there's a DoJ v. Microsoft case. A rather well-known one. In which Microsoft successfully claimed that Internet Explorer (which you or I would say is a separate application) was PART of Windows. >You aren't making sense here, unless "this module" means something >other then EXT2FS or the FPU emulator, since as has been demonstrated, >neither of those is GPL'ed. Not true. According to /usr/src/sys/gnu/COPYRIGHT.INFO: >Most of the files in this directory are written by Godmar Back or modified >by him using the CSRG sources. Those files are covered by the Berkeley-style >copyright. However the following files are covered by GPL. Since the policy >of the FreeBSD project is to keep the files with the more restrictive >copyright in the gnu tree and it is a good idea to keep the filesystem code >all together, the EXT2FS in its entirety resides under the gnu tree. Note >that only the files below are under the GPL. In the eventuality that these >files are redesigned or rewritten, this tree can be moved back into the less >restrictive FreeBSD tree. > > ext2_bitmap.c (in the cvs attic) > ext2_fs.h > ext2_fs_i.h > ext2_fs_sb.h > ext2_linux_balloc.c > ext2_linux_ialloc.c > ext2_super.c (in the cvs attic) > ext2_vfsops.c (has some GPL'ed code from ext2_super.c) > i386-bitops.h Part is GPLed, therefore (due to the viral nature of the GPL) all are GPLed. And inclusion of this code can trigger demands that all of the FreeBSD kernel be GPLed. The FreeBSD Project is skating on ice that is far too thin here due to apathy about licensing. Considering the vehemence of the FSF and the FSF's stated desire to force all software to be licensed under the GPL, it is not responsible or wise for us to do so. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 8: 0:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 122BF37B405 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28449; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:00:05 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218181014.00d7d3d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:59:00 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: Nils Holland , Jeremy Karlson , Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C1FA2CC.B0CDD474@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217222907.028403b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> <20011218193510.A23697@tisys.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124903.02874100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:10 PM 12/18/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >Too late, we already have the old code under the old license; we >can just fork their project on them, if it comes down to a license >change. And then BSD winds up actually MAINTAINING a GPLed product, which is not only contrary to the BSD philosophy but furthers Stallman's agenda. Not good. What's more, since the key maintainers are working on the other fork and are likely to be GPL zealots who will not BSD-license their code, BSD falls behind. Better to have a project that's part of BSD and is actively developed and maintained by people from the BSD projects. Perhaps Apple could help to fund this, since they have a specific need for a C/Objective C compiler. What they have now is forked from GCC, and I doubt that they're happy about harboring the wildebeest either. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 8: 0:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BA3E37B417 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:00:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28452; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:00:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219085146.00decca0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:59:56 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3C20557A.C9AE1720@mindspring.com> References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218102351.02841f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124204.02812700@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180158.00d6fc50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:53 AM 12/19/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >I'd like to get a URL for this. Here you go: http://slashdot.org/articles/01/05/23/1723215.shtml http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/07/18/214202&mode=flat and http://www.vidomi.com/article.php?sid=1 Note that Vidomi, the company in question, was forced, by the FSF's arm twisting, to release substantial portions of its own work even though its program simply LINKED to DLLs built with GPLed code. In the end, it was forced not to link to DLLs but rather to create a separate program with which its own commercial program communicated via IPC. This program contained much of the company's own work. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 9:49:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C281F37B417 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:49:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 16GjUh-000BTl-00; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:22:59 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id fBJGMnH58008; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:22:49 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:22:49 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: "Hubert T. Yamada" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who writes the esoteric scientific Unix apps? Message-ID: <20011219162249.A57982@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20011214170714.A13736@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011217124941.K32804-100000@shark.ifa.hawaii.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20011217124941.K32804-100000@shark.ifa.hawaii.edu>; from yamada@ifa.hawaii.edu on Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 01:07:54PM -1000 X-Scanner: exiscan *16GjUh-000BTl-00*hnAoGOG7Jyc* http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The reason I ask this question is because this is the field I'm in. I develop data acquisition/analysis software, and it's loads of fun. But this seems to be an area where there is very little commercial support in Unix, at leas that I am aware of. Much of what we sell is used by universities and other educational and research institutions. Since they are so cost conscious, I would imagine that having the stability of Unix and near zero cost would be a good thing for them. However, the desktop standard, as we know all too well, is not propitious for such an avenue. Add to that the fact that even PhD's expect to be able to click a button to do everything these days, and it makes things even more difficult. I would think running somewhat open applications on an open OS would be a field ripe for the taking. But then again, what do I know about business and marketing? ;-) jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 10:15:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.Alameda.net [64.81.63.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD7B437B405 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:15:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 188513A246; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:14:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:14:59 -0800 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Anyone in the area of Alameda/Oakland have a FC host adapter ? Message-ID: <20011219101459.S79916@seven.alameda.net> Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, anyone who is around the Alameda/Oakland area who has a FC hostadapter I could borrow for a day ? I am trying to low level format a drive, for which the NetApp its connected to doesn't seem to have an option to do so. -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 11:50:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shark.ifa.hawaii.edu (shark.IfA.Hawaii.Edu [128.171.162.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E91037B439 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (yamada@localhost) by shark.ifa.hawaii.edu (8.11.6/8.11.4) with ESMTP id fBJJnBo39705; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:49:11 -1000 (HST) (envelope-from yamada@ifa.hawaii.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: shark.ifa.hawaii.edu: yamada owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:49:10 -1000 (HST) From: "Hubert T. Yamada" Reply-To: "Hubert T. Yamada" To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who writes the esoteric scientific Unix apps? In-Reply-To: <20011219162249.A57982@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: <20011219092731.A39663-100000@shark.ifa.hawaii.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, j mckitrick wrote: > The reason I ask this question is because this is the field I'm in. > I develop data acquisition/analysis software, and it's loads of fun. > But this seems to be an area where there is very little commercial > support in Unix, at leas that I am aware of. This is a really tough field to make a profit in. A lot of that sort of work tends to be really specialized, so it generally has to be developed in house. The software is often paid for by grants, in which case it is given away for free. If not, and it has to make a profit, then the market is so small that the cost is generally prohibitive. Probably the best way to make a profit here is in developing the tools to make tools. > Much of what we sell is used by universities and other educational and > research institutions. Since they are so cost conscious, I would > imagine that having the stability of Unix and near zero cost would be a > good thing for them. Indeed. Also the flexibility of unix and the relative simplicity of the command line, shell script, and pipe models is a benefit. > However, the desktop standard, as we know all too > well, is not propitious for such an avenue. Add to that the fact that > even PhD's expect to be able to click a button to do everything these > days, and it makes things even more difficult. That depends on what field you're talking about. I know a lot of PhD's who don't expect anything to be point and click. > I would think running > somewhat open applications on an open OS would be a field ripe for the > taking. But then again, what do I know about business and marketing? > ;-) One thing that you're competing with is that the universities have a huge amount of cheap but very skilled labor. In astronomy, graduate students are paid low wages and work long hours in order to get a degree in a field in which job prospects are dismal. Tenured professors generally are paid for by the university, and they often tend to think of their own time as a free resource. I'm not trying to discourage you, because I would love to see more commercial applications here. I think that there is a way to make money here, but it would have to be very carefully considered. Hubert -- Hubert Yamada, University of Hawaii, Institute for Astronomy phone: (808)956-6648 e-mail: yamada@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu OR yamada@hawaii.edu WWW: http://ccd.ifa.hawaii.edu/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 12:22:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail010.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail010.syd.optusnet.com.au [203.2.75.171]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972DD37B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:22:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from optusnet.com.au (golax8-189.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.182.189]) by mail010.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fBJKMZg01599 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 07:22:35 +1100 Message-ID: <3C20F74A.4BD50BFD@optusnet.com.au> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:23:38 +1000 From: Ian Pulsford X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <0gn10gyxwd.10g@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Unfortunately, he also decided to punish developers who WILL allow > repair and enhancement (eg, FreeBSD) but won't join in the punishment of > others; that is way the GPL has no virus-escape clause for other open > software, which it easily could do. I don't understand why more people > don't find this bullying of other open ("free") software developers > distasteful. The newer FreeBSD license, along with others, is considered to be "compatible". I've always wondered if by "compatible", Stallman means "can be assimilated into GPL code". IanP To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 14:57: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8366437B41C for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:56:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fBJMugS29937 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:56:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:56:58 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Message-ID: <20011219174812.W5523-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At work I have tried to use FreeBSD where I thought it made sense and I could get support/permission. Recently we installed a mail server with some low end hardware (IDE disks, 128MB Ram) and installed FreeBSD. I used a 3Ware card with Raid 10 for redundancy. Even though the machine doesn't seem to be having problems yet (just started to move users from another mail server) because a HD failed and the machine freezed networking wants to move to more "stable" hardware. We have Compaq machines here. So they have a Compaq DL380 with Compaq Raid. FreeBSD doesn't run on this so they are rushing (it seems they find it more appealing to "play" with Linux) to install Linux (I think RedHat) on it. I wish them luck, but hope they don't rush putting something on production on an OS, which regardless of whether it is good or not, they have no experience with. At least with any FreeBSD machines I could have helped them (not that I am a pro, but just have been using it for years). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 15: 5:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from skalman.campus.luth.se (skalman.campus.luth.se [130.240.197.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E09F37B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:05:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pantzer@localhost) by skalman.campus.luth.se (8.11.6/8.11.5) id fBJN5HR01761; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:05:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from pantzer) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:05:17 +0100 From: Mattias Pantzare To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011220000517.B1577@skalman.campus.luth.se> References: <20011218222113.A25396@tisys.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218182449.00d71c00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218182449.00d71c00@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 08:01:00AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 03:22 PM 12/18/2001, Nils Holland wrote: > > >The word "punished" in the manifesto is indeed amazing. > > It also appears in a speech he made in Switzerland (at KTH, I > believe) not long ago. See > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/stallman-kth.html SWEDEN! :-) Not long ago? 1986 is not that recent... :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 15: 9:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F37C37B405 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:09:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([62.253.152.142]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20011219230948.XVUX27606.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com>; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:09:48 +0000 Received: from boog.goatsucker.org (boog.goatsucker.org [192.168.1.3]) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fBJN9Tn09099; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:09:30 GMT (envelope-from scott@boog.goatsucker.org) Received: (from scott@localhost) by boog.goatsucker.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA03457; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:08:57 GMT (envelope-from scott) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:08:57 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Message-ID: <20011219230857.B276@localhost> References: <20011219174812.W5523-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20011219174812.W5523-100000@zoraida.natserv.net>; from lists@natserv.com on Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 05:56:58PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 05:56:58PM -0500, Francisco Reyes wrote: > I wish them luck, but hope they don't rush putting something on production > on an OS, which regardless of whether it is good or not, they have no > experience with. At least with any FreeBSD machines I could have helped > them (not that I am a pro, but just have been using it for years). :-( Good luck to them with RedHat... look forward to everything breaking when they upgrade to the next point release. FWIW, I've recently converted my office's main fileserver from Linux to FreeBSD (after it fell over twice in one week) and put FreeBSD on three new machines that would otherwise have been Linux, so that's a net gain despite your misfortune :-) Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 15:26: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.122.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FDB237B419 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:26:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.11.3/8.10.1) with ESMTP id fBJNQOr44625; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:26:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:26:24 -0800 (PST) From: Doug White To: Ulf Zimmermann Cc: Subject: Re: Anyone in the area of Alameda/Oakland have a FC host adapter ? In-Reply-To: <20011219101459.S79916@seven.alameda.net> Message-ID: X-All-Your-Base: are belong to us MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > anyone who is around the Alameda/Oakland area who has a FC hostadapter > I could borrow for a day ? I am trying to low level format a drive, > for which the NetApp its connected to doesn't seem to have an option > to do so. I'm guessing said NetApp has no support. Usually if disks blow up in them NetApp will swap them for free. :) Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 15:42: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net (deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB83137B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:42:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.12] helo=harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net) by deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GQg5-0000sy-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:17:29 -0800 Received: from [209.179.200.2] (helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GQa8-0006V9-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:11:20 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1FA2CC.B0CDD474@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:10:52 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Nils Holland , Jeremy Karlson , Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217222907.028403b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> <20011218193510.A23697@tisys.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124903.02874100@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Dare we risk this? Remember, the FSF owns the code 100%. If Richard > and Brad say that it to be licensed in a particular way it does > not matter what anyone else would like. Their recent remarks suggest > that they are merely waiting for what they feel is an opportune > moment. They have stated, in a recent interview posted on Slashdot, > the FSF's official stance: that programmers should not be ALLOWED to > publish code under any license other than the GPL. Too late, we already have the old code under the old license; we can just fork their project on them, if it comes down to a license change. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 16:23:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CDE137B419 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:23:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fBK0NRA31895; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:23:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:23:48 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: Scott Mitchell Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: <20011219230857.B276@localhost> Message-ID: <20011219192206.J5735-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Scott Mitchell wrote: > :-( Good luck to them with RedHat... look forward to everything breaking > when they upgrade to the next point release. Upgrade? :-) I don't think they wont' even try that. > FWIW, I've recently converted my office's main fileserver from Linux to > FreeBSD (after it fell over twice in one week) and put FreeBSD on three > new machines that would otherwise have been Linux, so that's a net gain > despite your misfortune :-) Unfortunately as long as FreeBSD doesn't do better with Compaq Raids I am not sure how much luck I will have with production machines. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 16:29:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABC1E37B419 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:29:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fBK0Tca68091; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:29:39 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <012001c188ed$69182020$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Francisco Reyes" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat List" References: <20011219192206.J5735-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:29:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco writes: > Unfortunately as long as FreeBSD doesn't do > better with Compaq Raids I am not sure how > much luck I will have with production machines. In what way is Linux better with Compaq RAIDs? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 16:34:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4532B37B405 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A6D0C1C2; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:34:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21604; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:34:39 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBK0ZHT65814; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:35:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218102351.02841f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124204.02812700@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180158.00d6fc50@localhost> <3C20557A.C9AE1720@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 19 Dec 2001 16:35:17 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C20557A.C9AE1720@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > There might be room for a claim that there is an attempt to subvert > the GPL by delaying linking until a user action is performed; it's > very grey whether or not that would be a legal way of escaping the > GPL (and will probably remain so, until and unless it is tested in > court). Doesn't this mean that a lot of people have put themselves at risk of being a test case? (Or more likely, the risk of being forced to GPL FreeBSD.) > Also, GPL'ed code is very different from LGPL'ed code, as there is > no "relink clause" in the GPL (as you know), but there is specific > exception made for Os services. Note that that exception is in GPL Clause 3 which concerns the distribution of "object code or executable" and the exception is only for the need to distribute OS source and the exception only applies if the OS and GPL code are not distributed together. If that is not narrow enough for you, a close-reader will note that it says nothing about excepting the viral nature of the GPL code on the OS code (except for mere distribution of source). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 17:21:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A474D37B416 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:21:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.48] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBK1L0S06817; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:21:00 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20011219192206.J5735-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> References: <20011219192206.J5735-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:46:36 +0100 To: Francisco Reyes , Scott Mitchell From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:23 PM -0500 on 2001/12/19, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Scott Mitchell wrote: > >> :-( Good luck to them with RedHat... look forward to everything breaking >> when they upgrade to the next point release. > > Upgrade? :-) > I don't think they wont' even try that. Cool. So, you can look forward to having your machines compromised by li0n2 (or whatever), and having to scrub and re-install every single machine on your network, because as part of the rootkit they also installed a password sniffer, and used the machine as a launching point for other break-in attempts. I wish you luck in keeping your machines secure, starting about five minutes after they begin the process to install Linux on that system -- I doubt that they'll finish the install process before the machine has already been "0wn3d" by some "skr1pt k1dd13". > Unfortunately as long as FreeBSD doesn't do better with > Compaq Raids I am not sure how much luck I will have with production > machines. If you got one, contribute it to the project (or at least let someone try building some code on it), so that we can get support folded into the main code base. That's really about the only way this sort of thing happens, unless the manufacturer decides to donate a piece of hardware directly. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 18:11:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B6437B405 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 537F6BE0C; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:09:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16311; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:09:52 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBK2AU865876; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:10:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218102351.02841f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124204.02812700@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180158.00d6fc50@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011219085146.00decca0@localhost> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 19 Dec 2001 18:10:29 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219085146.00decca0@localhost> Message-ID: Lines: 57 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > http://slashdot.org/articles/01/05/23/1723215.shtml > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/07/18/214202&mode=flat > http://www.vidomi.com/article.php?sid=1 > > Note that Vidomi, the company in question, was forced, by > the FSF's arm twisting, to release substantial portions of > its own work even though its program simply LINKED to DLLs > built with GPLed code .... Thanks for posting those. I've been ignoring much of /. recently and missed that. Especially interesting is the Eben Moglen letter linked (via JavaScript, grrrr) off the middle of the last page listed above. Given some of the strange ideas I've seen from Moglen, I don't give his legal opinions complete credence, but given his position with the FSF, it is gives us a pretty good idea of what his and RMS's opinions would probably be on a couple of the issues we've discussed. Note that he spoke for himself, not the FSF. I found two things particularly interesting: The company (after the arm-twisting) planned to distrubute a package that consisted of GPL'd code and non-GPL'd code and some of the latter installed the rest. Moglen found that no "technical interpenetration" justifies regarding them as a single, combined work and that such packages are "mere aggregations" permitted by the GPL. Comments: First, that's one opinion and some licensors may have others. Second, I'd like to know if there is common legal understanding of what a "work" is in law that makes combining code as a single package that is distributed is not a single work, because doing so with stories or articles does make a single work. Or is it just another of Moglen's fantastical opinions? Third, it's sad, but probably true, that Moglen's (and RMS's) opinions will carry much weight and influence the opinions of others like licensors and lawyers and maybe even some courts, mostly because of his long history with the FSF, not matter how badly he interprets the GPL (which he might have had a hand in writing, FAIK) compared to the poor souls who have had to read and accept the thing who can't read his mind or even feel the need to. The other interesting thing is his equating the GPL+non_GPL package distribution method with that of a Linux OS CD-ROM. My question is why we can't equate both to a staticly linked program? How does a dumb linker create a copyrightable work? (Given, that the non-GPL part is not a derivative of the GPL part. The obvious answer: Because someone interprets the GPL to say that it does. Maybe not. But if so, then why isn't the GPL+non_GPL package or the Linux CD also a work. Who gets to say what is "mere aggregation"? Is suspect it will be whoever has the most legal clout. Getting back to the dynamic-linking issue that started the case, this is not clearly discussed in any of the stuff at /. or Vidomi. Anyone know of a Moglen or RMS justification for that outrageous claim (or any well written one)? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 18:43:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 745FD37B41A for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:43:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 012D9C3B2; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:43:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26530; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:43:18 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBK2htL65879; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:43:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 19 Dec 2001 18:43:55 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> Message-ID: <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 35 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan Lemon writes: > E.g.: kernel + (N)"options XXX" = non-GPL'd kernel. > kernel + (N)"options XXX" + "options EXT2FS" = GPL'd kernel. > > > We are in agreement here, right? (Can you get your mail reader to not use tabs? I can't get my mail reader to quote them correctly and I doubt if many can. Thanks.) We are not in agreement. When you have the second equation, you must also have: kernel = GPL'd kernel and (N)"options XXX" = GPL'd (N)"options XXX" and therefor you will have kernel + (N)"options XXX" = GPL'd kernel. You can't distribute a whole (a GPL term) under the GPL without distributing its parts under the GPL. It seems like basic logic to me. Nothing to do with the GPL. Please explain carefully if you disagree. Now, you might be able and willing to dual-license all of those parts and wholes (except anything that is not yours to change licensing on) under both BSDL and GPL, but I think all are not willing and so you won't be able. And if we're willing to accept Eben Moglen's theory of "mere aggregation" as reliable for even cases he's not involved in, then there might be some scheme whereby you could show that you just have two separate programs communicating, rather than a single staticly- or dynamically-linked program. (I don't see the difference in copyright law, but then I probably won't be asked.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 19: 7:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AF3137B405 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07015; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:07:22 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219200649.01c2e950@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:07:19 -0700 To: Ian Pulsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: <3C20F74A.4BD50BFD@optusnet.com.au> References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <0gn10gyxwd.10g@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:23 PM 12/19/2001, Ian Pulsford wrote: >I've always wondered if by "compatible", Stallman means >"can be assimilated into GPL code". Yes, that is what he means. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 19:22:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 880D037B405 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07207; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:22:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219200831.01ea1a60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:22:02 -0700 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219085146.00decca0@localhost> <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218102351.02841f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124204.02812700@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180158.00d6fc50@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011219085146.00decca0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:10 PM 12/19/2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >Given some of the strange ideas I've seen from Moglen, I don't give his >legal opinions complete credence, but given his position with the FSF, >it is gives us a pretty good idea of what his and RMS's opinions would >probably be on a couple of the issues we've discussed. Note that he >spoke for himself, not the FSF. True. His opinions will likely determine whether the FSF will pursue a lawsuit, though, so they are important even if he is wrong. My personal opinion is that the GPL is unenforceable due to "meta-contract" issues and also because it constitutes what is sometimes called "copyright abuse" -- the attempted use of a claim of copyright to accomplish ends beyond copyright's Constitutional scope. But these arguments would of course have to be made in a test case. >I found two things particularly interesting: The company (after the >arm-twisting) planned to distrubute a package that consisted of GPL'd >code and non-GPL'd code and some of the latter installed the rest. >Moglen found that no "technical interpenetration" justifies regarding >them as a single, combined work and that such packages are "mere >aggregations" permitted by the GPL. The FSF's CURRENT stance (it could change tomorrow) is that linking -- static or dynamic -- brings the entire work under the GPL, whereas IPC does not. (Never mind that they're just different forms of communication between two chunks of code.) BeOS, which uses GPLed drivers, exploits this loophole by making its device drivers autonomous processes that communicate with the rest of the OS via fast IPC. It then takes GPLed drivers for Linux and converts them to BeOS drivers by putting a process skeleton around them. Voila! Instant access to a vast library of device drivers. Of course, RMS could, tomorrow, decide that those hoarding thieves at Be, Inc. deserve to be punished and revise either the GPL or his legal beagles' stance. Does the FSF's current stance make sense? Is it enforceable? Who knows! The important thing is that loading a kernel module would NOT satisfy the FSF's criteria for "separateness" and would thus compel the FreeBSD Project to license the kernel under the GPL. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 19:56: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (66-188-92-95.mad.wi.charter.com [66.188.92.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7285137B417 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:56:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBK3tmD00497; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:55:48 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:55:48 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Jonathan Lemon , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 19, 2001 at 06:43:55PM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Jonathan Lemon writes: > > > E.g.: kernel + (N)"options XXX" = non-GPL'd kernel. > > kernel + (N)"options XXX" + "options EXT2FS" = GPL'd kernel. > > > > > > We are in agreement here, right? > > (Can you get your mail reader to not use tabs? I can't get my mail > reader to quote them correctly and I doubt if many can. Thanks.) I guess I'll tell 'vi' to use spaces instead of tabs. > We are not in agreement. When you have the second equation, you must > also have: > kernel = GPL'd kernel > and > (N)"options XXX" = GPL'd (N)"options XXX" > and therefor you will have > kernel + (N)"options XXX" = GPL'd kernel. > > You can't distribute a whole (a GPL term) under the GPL without > distributing its parts under the GPL. It seems like basic logic to > me. Nothing to do with the GPL. Please explain carefully if you > disagree. Well, I agree with the above 4 sentences, but not the prior argument. I imagine that this point is where you (and Brett, probably) lose most of your readers. The concept (to me anyway) is simple: 1. There exists a GPL encumbered source. Call this A. 2. I have some pure BSD kernel sources. Call this B. 3. Make a copy of the BSD code. cp -R /usr/src /usr/src2. Call this C. 3'. (optional) Move copy C far away (into another universe) 4. Add GPL code A to BSD code C. Now, by my logic, and my reading of the GPL, yes, the resulting product which contains 'A' and 'C' is now under the GPL, and so copy C automatically falls under the GPL too. BUT! Copy B is _NOT_ under the GPL. This is where we appear to differ. I reject the notion that because it is possible in some universe to combine BSD + GPL'd code, that it automatically forces all other copies of the BSD code to fall under the GPL. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 20: 7:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2879837B419 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:07:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C228CC435; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15394; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:07:26 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBK482p65896; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:08:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Jeremy Karlson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 19 Dec 2001 20:08:02 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 43 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeremy Karlson writes: > ... We could snag a copy of GCC before the "license change" and just > continue on with it under the GPL. Isn't that the point > of the GPL - to restrict the ability of someone to do something > proprietary, even if it is Stallman himself? Please tell us how the GPL restricts the ability of someone to do something "proprietary" any more than the BSD licence does (or the MIT license, which I suppose RMS knew before creating the GPL, does)? I don't think you can, because that isn't the point of the GPL. No, the real point of the GPL is to encourage someone to DO something "proprietary". Namely, to encourage (to put it politly -- better might be "coerce" or "force" or "bully") people (those wishing to save time and money by reusing some or all of the GPL'd code in their own creation) to withhold the results of their work from closed (and to a lesser extent non-GPL open) software developers. P.S. Please understand that one is being proprietary when one uses the GPL or even the BSDL. One is the holder of exclusive proprietary rights, namely copyrights. Licensing them under liberal or strict conditions doesn't change that. Most copyright statements (including those on GPL'd code) should (and most do) include "All Rights Reserved" as a warning, because that is the truth. Something is either proprietary or in the public domain. I think it's fair to refer to something being more proprietary or less, as an idiomatic way of saying that the proprietor has withheld his proprietary rights (distribution, etc) under more or less stringent conditions, but please don't engage in GNU-speak like Bruce Perens who says (in the book "Open Sources...") "The GPL's definition of a proprietary program is any program with a license that doesn't give you as many rights as the GPL." (He's a principle author of GNU-speak, but this derives from RMS. BTW, the body of the GPL doesn't even use the word and the rest of it just uses it in passing. One can't believe everything one reads, even in a book. Also, even closed source licenses could give you as many rights as the GPL does; they would just have different conditions.) And "proprietary" doesn't even mean "closed". "Closed" does, though; people should use it more often. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 20:28:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF2A37B419 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:28:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D16FFC43F; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:28:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20818; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:28:18 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBK4Stj65899; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:28:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nils Holland , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Dirty Little Open Source Secret References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> <20011219111842.B2186@tisys.org> <20011219113809.A2730@tisys.org> <3C209385.7A853E1A@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 19 Dec 2001 20:28:54 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C209385.7A853E1A@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: [A masterpiece.] Terry, that was beautiful. Worthy of a web page. I was about to suggest to Nils that few developers will care to work on purifying FreeBSD but few will object to replacing parts whenever someone gets the itch to prepare a good replacement and does it. The tricky part is to use itching powder, not pepper spray. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 20:48:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6CD5837B41A for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:48:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 74941 invoked by uid 100); 20 Dec 2001 04:48:16 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15393.28048.349600.568435@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:48:16 -0600 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Dirty Little Open Source Secret In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> <20011219111842.B2186@tisys.org> <20011219113809.A2730@tisys.org> <3C209385.7A853E1A@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen types: > I was about to suggest to Nils that few developers will care to work on > purifying FreeBSD but few will object to replacing parts whenever > someone gets the itch to prepare a good replacement and does it. So if I were to rewrite all the parts of the base system that used Perl in Python, no one would object to replacing Perl in the base system with Python? After all, the PSF license looks more like a BSD license than the GPL. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 20:51:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9328837B41B for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:51:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from thinkpad770z.davidcamp.net ([216.103.90.137]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GOM00HZULHGIL@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:51:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:51:05 -0800 From: Dave Walton Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dwalton@acm.org Message-id: <20011219205105.4bcbe4f5.dwalton@acm.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.6.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You wrote: > The concept (to me anyway) is simple: > > 1. There exists a GPL encumbered source. Call this A. > 2. I have some pure BSD kernel sources. Call this B. > 3. Make a copy of the BSD code. > cp -R /usr/src /usr/src2. Call this C. > 3'. (optional) Move copy C far away (into another universe) > 4. Add GPL code A to BSD code C. > > Now, by my logic, and my reading of the GPL, yes, the resulting product which > contains 'A' and 'C' is now under the GPL, and so copy C automatically falls > under the GPL too. > > BUT! > > Copy B is _NOT_ under the GPL. This is where we appear to differ. I reject > the notion that because it is possible in some universe to combine BSD + GPL'd > code, that it automatically forces all other copies of the BSD code to fall > under the GPL. Then, in fact, you agree with Gary and Brett, and have stated their case quite neatly. They do not claim that all existing copies are GPL'd, only that the distributed copies (code 'C') are GPL'd in their entirety. If that logic holds (and there is some risk of that, since the GPL is such a confusing mess), then I can buy a FreeBSD CD-ROM, spew the GPL all over the files, and rerelease it as the new, GPL'd, GNU/BSD. No, that does not affect the CVS repository (code 'B'), but it is certainly very undesireable. I don't know how large the risk is but it is surely worth being quite paranoid about. Dave -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Walton dwalton@acm.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 20:56:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D1237B405 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:56:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5303CBCD3; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:56:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28320; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:56:06 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBK4uha65906; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:56:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brett Glass Cc: Nils Holland , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <20011218222113.A25396@tisys.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218182449.00d71c00@localhost> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 19 Dec 2001 20:56:43 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218182449.00d71c00@localhost> Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > At 03:22 PM 12/18/2001, Nils Holland wrote: > > >The word "punished" in the manifesto is indeed amazing. > > It also appears in a speech he made in Switzerland (at KTH, I > believe) not long ago. See > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/stallman-kth.html But it's used just once and in a rather common, unamazing way, methinks. And RMS should not be held to what he said more than 15 years ago. (I'm not sure what the threshold should be.) We should be willing to assume that both the Manifesto and its writer have matured a bit together, unless there's recent evidence he hasn't. The old stuff IS interesting, though. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 21:12: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (66-188-92-95.mad.wi.charter.com [66.188.92.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F14AA37B417 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:12:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBK5Bpl05690; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:11:51 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:11:51 -0600 (CST) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <200112200511.fBK5Bpl05690@prism.flugsvamp.com> To: mwm-dated-1009255696.e529b9@mired.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Dirty Little Open Source Secret X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Cc: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >Gary W. Swearingen types: >> I was about to suggest to Nils that few developers will care to work on >> purifying FreeBSD but few will object to replacing parts whenever >> someone gets the itch to prepare a good replacement and does it. > >So if I were to rewrite all the parts of the base system that used >Perl in Python, no one would object to replacing Perl in the base >system with Python? After all, the PSF license looks more like a BSD >license than the GPL. I seriously hope you were being sarcastic here. If not, then the short answer is: "no way in hell". However, replacing Perl with C will be accepted, (and is being done too). So if you produce suitable working code, it will find its way into the tree. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 21:30:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59C7637B42B for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:30:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A119DBCD3; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:30:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04725; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:30:05 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBK5Ufa65917; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:30:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218181554.00d6f900@localhost> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 19 Dec 2001 21:30:41 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218181554.00d6f900@localhost> Message-ID: Lines: 32 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > Actually, his stated goal is to go farther than that. He wants to > reduce that pay to the point where they can BARELY earn a living. ... > attain them. He wishes the same fate for all programmers. He wants > "high-paying" jobs for programmers, regardless of skill level, to be > "banned." I saw no evidence for that in your RMS quote (clipped). I can only agree to the extent that the high pay is a function of royalty fees on closed software. Why wouldn't he be happy to see a bunch of highly-paid copyleft programmers? (Like we have at NASA (GNU/Linux drivers) and some other Fed agency (Secure Linux?) -- ironic since US Gov. is required by law to publish into the PD.) > Ironically, he calls commercial developers "hoarders" when in > fact the FSF has the largest hoard of software in the world. Perhaps it means something different in GNU-speak. > >Wrong animal. It's a gnu. > > Also known as a "wildebeest." Coincidence? (I though it was "wildebeast". Thanks for the proper spelling.) I don't know what coincidence you might be referring to, but I guess that GNU might have been born of "Guild for a New Unix" before it was decided that the "guild" concept wouldn't propagandise well while the cutsie recursive thing would. Well, the concept would, just not the word; "community" is so much more PC, if less precise. Just a guess. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 21:42:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6765037B417 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:42:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16Gvy7-00076T-00; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:42:11 -0800 Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:42:11 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: government and public domain (was Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Dec 2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > on closed software. Why wouldn't he be happy to see a bunch of > highly-paid copyleft programmers? (Like we have at NASA (GNU/Linux > drivers) and some other Fed agency (Secure Linux?) -- ironic since > US Gov. is required by law to publish into the PD.) Where can I find official documents about requiring government developed/sponsored software to be offered as public domain? (And maybe, in what cases, does it not have to be public domain?) Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 21:42:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BFE5D37B41C for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:42:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 75558 invoked by uid 100); 20 Dec 2001 05:42:14 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15393.31286.372691.300145@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:42:14 -0600 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218181554.00d6f900@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen types: > I don't know what coincidence you might be referring to, but I guess > that GNU might have been born of "Guild for a New Unix" before it was > decided that the "guild" concept wouldn't propagandise well while the > cutsie recursive thing would. Well, the concept would, just not the > word; "community" is so much more PC, if less precise. Just a guess. I think GNU predated the "pc-ness" of community. I know that recursive acronyms predate GNU; see the jargon file entry at . http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 22:10:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aquinas.techsquare.com (aquinas.techsquare.com [199.190.186.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFEEB37B405 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:10:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by aquinas.techsquare.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBK6AZJ19499; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:10:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jamie) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:10:35 -0500 From: Jamie Oulman To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Message-ID: <20011220011035.A18793@techsquare.com> References: <20011219192206.J5735-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 01:46:36AM +0100 Organization: TechSquare Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Cool. So, you can look forward to having your machines > compromised by li0n2 (or whatever), and having to scrub and > re-install every single machine on your network, because as part of > the rootkit they also installed a password sniffer, and used the > machine as a launching point for other break-in attempts. doing a redhat upgrade is about as fun as doing a win98 -> win2k upgrade. ie. dont even try. I know alot of people still running 6.2 for this very reason. that and redhat has yet to come close to a release thats as stable as 6.2. i think mainly because vendors are quick to release when the latest and greatest kernel/gnome/kde comes out. im thankfull the BSD's have diffrent idea's on what should contitute a new release. redhat like most everything else. can be secured. if properly maintained and kept up to date. the problem is most people who run redhat and linux in general dont know what they have running. its amazing how many default installs there are out there. is it the vendors fault for distributing insecure software? partly yes. but it is also up to the admin to keep things current and patched. 2c -jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 22:58:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C01C37B41A for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:58:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA09258; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:58:24 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219235317.00e55b00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:57:52 -0700 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), Jeremy Karlson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:08 PM 12/19/2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >Please tell us how the GPL restricts the ability of someone to do >something "proprietary" any more than the BSD licence does (or the MIT >license, which I suppose RMS knew before creating the GPL, does)? >I don't think you can, because that isn't the point of the GPL. In this argument, and in the paragraphs that follow, methinks you are falling prey to Stallman's Humpty Dumpty-ish redefinition of the word "proprietary." The correct definition of "proprietary" is as follows: A product or protocol is proprietary when others cannot produce products that interoperate with it, are compatible with it, or are equivalent to it. What Stallman refers to as "proprietary" software is in fact commercial software. Stallman is leveraging the strong negative connotations of the word "proprietary" and also avoiding the use of the word "commercial," which would highlight the fact that he is anti-business. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 23: 2:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DDC837B405 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:02:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09298; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:02:13 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219235923.01c50760@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:02:02 -0700 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: Nils Holland , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218182449.00d71c00@localhost> <20011218222113.A25396@tisys.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218182449.00d71c00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:56 PM 12/19/2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >And RMS should not be held to what he said more than 15 years ago. (I'm >not sure what the threshold should be.) RMS has not changed his absolutist "religion" in all of that time. His intent is precisely the same. He has merely discovered that by hiding his intentions and toning down his rhetoric he is able to garner support via deception. And since he believes that the end justifies the means (he refers to this concept, euphemistically, as "pragmatic idealism"), he feels no compunctions about these tactics. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 23: 5:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24C5E37B41A for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09332; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:05:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011220000256.01c5c5b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:05:16 -0700 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011218181554.00d6f900@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218181554.00d6f900@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:30 PM 12/19/2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >Why wouldn't [RMS] be happy to see a bunch of >highly-paid copyleft programmers? Because he believes that NO programmer should be highly paid. Of course, the GPL itself ensures that businesses which embrace it do not succeed, so high pay for programmers working on GPLed code will be short-lived. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 23:26:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp004pub.verizon.net (smtp004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.183]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EAF137B41B for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:26:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtp004pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id fBK7QXJ09633 Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:26:33 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA77112; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:27:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:27:25 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Nils Holland , Jeremy Karlson , Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011219232725.A77082@darkstar.gte.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011217222907.028403b0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218095233.028ea920@localhost> <20011218193510.A23697@tisys.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124903.02874100@localhost> <3C1FA2CC.B0CDD474@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <3C1FA2CC.B0CDD474@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 12:10:52PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org After reading about the company with the divx codec that was had to face the GPL issue, I began to wonder: Their solution seemed to be making two halves of the program. One piece that involved GPL code, and one that did not, and then having the two pieces do IPC. If for whatever reason, JFS ended up getting ported to FreeBSD, could we construct a GPL-safe sandbox for things like a FS implementation to live in? If a JFS implementation was a userland process, would the kernel be safe? (I'm thinking about BeOS.) On a different note: I've been playing with SMP (bp6) systems for a while, and with the hurdles that SMP faces, I begin to wonder about an other question. Would it be practical to run two different OS on two CPU on the same box? FreeBSD aside Linux for example? or Windows along side FreeBSD? Or more likely, a low latency optimized GUI on one CPU and a more or less normal kernel on the other. (The MS snake is shorter than it used to be. (The end of support on products like W95 is going to push people forward.) With all of the stuff that MS is leveraging into W2k and beyond, FreeBSD may need to get innovative to hold its relative position as a technical and architectural leader.) Thanks, [RC] On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 12:10:52PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Brett Glass wrote: > > Dare we risk this? Remember, the FSF owns the code 100%. If Richard > > and Brad say that it to be licensed in a particular way it does > > not matter what anyone else would like. Their recent remarks suggest > > that they are merely waiting for what they feel is an opportune > > moment. They have stated, in a recent interview posted on Slashdot, > > the FSF's official stance: that programmers should not be ALLOWED to > > publish code under any license other than the GPL. > > Too late, we already have the old code under the old license; we > can just fork their project on them, if it comes down to a license > change. > > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 19 23:29: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADFB737B417 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 23:28:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBK7SbR27609; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:28:38 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <014a01c18927$f2270d60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Jamie Oulman" , "Brad Knowles" Cc: References: <20011219192206.J5735-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> <20011220011035.A18793@techsquare.com> Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:28:37 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie writes: > that and redhat has yet to come > close to a release thats as stable as 6.2. > i think mainly because vendors are quick > to release when the latest and greatest > kernel/gnome/kde comes out. That is inevitable when a vendor is trying to make money. One of the advantages of _truly_ open-source software is that nobody has any motivation to come out with "upgrades" every few months, because they don't derive any monetary advantage from doing so, and they do not have bills to pay. > the problem is most people who run redhat > and linux in general dont know what they > have running. Just like Windows, and for the same reasons. Commercial software invariably tends to evolve into bloatware and move towards proprietary environments, because commercial software companies _must_ come out with new releases regularly just to stay in business, whether new releases are actually required/useful or not. And they must come out with new releases at regular intervals even if those new releases aren't quite ready, for the same reasons. Anyone installing Red Hat Linux to get away from Microsoft is just trading one bad guy for another. The only way to escape the proprietary trap is to install something that isn't sold commercially by anyone, such as FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 0: 2:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F4837B416 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:02:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id A6DF73EBE; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:04:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77D5EBAA7; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:04:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:04:37 -0500 (EST) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: , Subject: Re: The Dirty Little Open Source Secret In-Reply-To: <200112200511.fBK5Bpl05690@prism.flugsvamp.com> Message-ID: <20011220030222.T21508-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >However, replacing Perl with C will be accepted, (and is being done too). >So if you produce suitable working code, it will find its way into the tree. I would assume that also holds true for replacing Perl will sh/awk/sed/etc? There are some things obviously implemented in Perl because C sucks at them. Awk can do a lot of those things quite well. Awk has just fallen into the shadows behind the sledgehammer of programming languages, Perl. Brandon D. Valentine -- "Iam mens praetrepidans avet vagari." - G. Valerius Catullus, Carmina, XLVI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 0: 4:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6991037B416 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:04:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 8E86A3EBE; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:06:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60B0FBAA7; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:06:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:06:12 -0500 (EST) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Brett Glass , Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011220030449.M21508-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Dec 2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >> Also known as a "wildebeest." Coincidence? > >(I though it was "wildebeast". Thanks for the proper spelling.) I thought it was thought. Spelling flames are lame. If you insist on writing them at least proofread your flame. ;-) Brandon D. Valentine -- "Iam mens praetrepidans avet vagari." - G. Valerius Catullus, Carmina, XLVI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 0:15:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C00337B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:15:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id DC1783EB9; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:17:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEE15BAA5; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:17:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:17:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Jamie Oulman , Brad Knowles , Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: <014a01c18927$f2270d60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20011220030636.C21508-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >The only way to escape the proprietary trap is to >install something that isn't sold commercially by anyone, such as FreeBSD. I agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly. It's difficult these days for someone in this industry not to come into contact with linux systems on a regular basis. I cringe at the way RH and its derivatives do things. I would add however that, when I must deal with linux and I have a choice I prefer using Debian. I think they've produced a more reliable, more sane distribution for the same reasons you've mentioned above as making FreeBSD better than RedHat. They simply have no commercial interests to worry about. Some people's largest complaint about Debian is that the stable release is so far behind the linux mainstream but others would argue that this is what makes it so good. The way they've designed their package management it's perfectly possible to run a stable series system and upgrade just the certain packages which are vulnerable or in which you need additional functionality. It's also possible to backdown more experimental packages in the frozen and testing releases to regain stability. The same granularity is possible with FreeBSD but you have to know a bit about CVS and how to generate diffs against remote versions. Hopefully libh will reach the point where the base system is under package management and the same granularity will be easy with FreeBSD. Believe me, I'm no Debian evangelist and I quite frankly think a lot of their decisions with regard to the importance of the almighty RMS & his beloved GPL are misguided at best, but that's been covered elsewhere in -chat. ;-) I do, however, think they're an excellent example of how non-commercial software can be inherently better. Brandon D. Valentine -- "Iam mens praetrepidans avet vagari." - G. Valerius Catullus, Carmina, XLVI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 0:19: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B99837B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:19:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 26BF93EB9; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:20:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AFD2BAA5; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:20:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:20:59 -0500 (EST) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: Jamie Oulman Cc: Brad Knowles , Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: <20011220011035.A18793@techsquare.com> Message-ID: <20011220031755.O21508-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Jamie Oulman wrote: > redhat like most everything else. can be secured. :s/can/cannot/ Yields: redhat like most everything else. cannot be secured. That's a misleading statement. Nothing can be secured. You can only do your best to protect a system from /known/ vulnerabilities. There's no telling who's out there reading source code and finding exploits without reporting them. It's hopefully not a common scenario, but the possibility exists. There's no way to say for certain that a given box is uncrackable. I know this is not what you meant by your statement, but the distinction is an important one to make IMO. Brandon D. Valentine -- "Iam mens praetrepidans avet vagari." - G. Valerius Catullus, Carmina, XLVI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 0:28:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EB7E37B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:28:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.48] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBK8RlY15162; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:27:47 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20011220011035.A18793@techsquare.com> References: <20011219192206.J5735-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> <20011220011035.A18793@techsquare.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:04:45 +0100 To: Jamie Oulman , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Cc: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:10 AM -0500 on 2001/12/20, Jamie Oulman wrote: > redhat like most everything else. can be secured. > if properly maintained and kept up to date. Sure, like any OS. But this implies that they have a clue and have some idea of what they're doing, which my reading of the previous messages on this subject would seem to indicate is almost certainly *NOT* the case in this particular instance -- these people are blindly ripping out FreeBSD for reasons that are almost certainly unrelated to the OS, and blindly dropping in Linux because they think it's shiny and something they want to play with. I have no problem at all if someone chooses to run Linux over FreeBSD and has valid reasons for doing so, even if those valid reasons are arbitrary, such as they just prefer Linux. But to make a choice like this out of ignorance and stupidity, that's another matter entirely. > the > problem is most people who run redhat and linux > in general dont know what they have running. its > amazing how many default installs there are out > there. Precisely. IMO, this is exactly what you'll see with respect to this particular site, and why they can look forward to being compromised before the install is complete. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 0:28:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9F537B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:28:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.48] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBK8RhY15134; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:27:43 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:59:49 +0100 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), Jeremy Karlson From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:08 PM -0800 on 2001/12/19, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Please tell us how the GPL restricts the ability of someone to do > something "proprietary" any more than the BSD licence does (or the MIT > license, which I suppose RMS knew before creating the GPL, does)? > I don't think you can, because that isn't the point of the GPL. Simple. If you do a project based on code that uses the GPL, you do not have the option of withholding your source code. If you do a project based on code that uses the BSDL, then you *do* have the option of withholding your source code. It doesn't get much simpler than that. > No, the real point of the GPL is to encourage someone to DO something > "proprietary". In what possible way could the GPL ever be construed to do anything remotely resembling this?!? > Namely, to encourage (to put it politly -- better might be "coerce" or > "force" or "bully") people (those wishing to save time and money by > reusing some or all of the GPL'd code in their own creation) to withhold > the results of their work from closed (and to a lesser extent non-GPL > open) software developers. Uh, could you re-state that please? This is about as clear as a black hole. I'll try to re-state this by copying your words and leaving out the parentheses, and see if we come up with anything that makes any kind of sense: Namely, to encourage people to withhold the results of their work from closed software developers. Okay, I guess in a perverse sort of way, this could potentially be construed to "encourage someone to DO something 'proprietary'", insofar as it allows someone to prevent their code being used by closed-source developers. However, I believe that the use of the word "proprietary" in this context was intended to mean "closed-source", which then makes a real hash of your claim. If you want to get pedantic with the use of certain words, that's fine. But if you do so, please label your message appropriately, so that the rest of us can just trash it and go on to other messages with real content. The simple fact is that the BSDL allows someone to do a closed-source (i.e., "proprietary") project based on it, while the GPL does not. I don't think that anyone could possibly disagree with this statement. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 0:40: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 570E037B416 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:40:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBK8doR27775; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:39:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <017201c18931$e44933d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Brandon D. Valentine" Cc: "Jamie Oulman" , "Brad Knowles" , References: <20011220030636.C21508-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:39:50 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brandon writes: > I agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly. It was a significant factor in my choice of FreeBSD. I really did not wish to become tied to a new vendor after being tied to Microsoft--what would be the point? One of the things that has really worried me about Linux from the start has been the obvious and rapid move towards proprietary versions of the software. It amazes me that nobody else has seen this. Are users of Linux so inexperienced in IT that they really don't recognize the pattern? Do they really believe that Red Hat or Mandrake are in it just for the altruistic satisfaction of serving mankind? Do they really think that any of these distributors will resist the temptation to move towards proprietary, commercial products and increasingly away from anything that is public and free? The mere fact of existence of any commercial concern distributing any operating system is a serious danger to its open-source status. With FreeBSD, I'm trying to avoid anything that I have to pay for, or for which I do not receive source. The only exception has been Domain Time client, because I use that same product on my Windows machine to hold the time correctly, and I wanted both machines to be synchronized in the same way. > It's difficult these days for someone in this > industry not to come into contact with linux > systems on a regular basis. Linux has been dramatically overhyped and overmarketed--and these are always bad signs for any type of software product, as they demonstrate that there are people with ulterior motives promoting them. My impression is that Linux appeals to people who have no previous exposure to UNIX, and do not know just how scraggly and primitive Linux is compared to established versions of the operating system. Many of them seem to be the classic, clueless young males with a hatred for MS and not much else (certainly not much IT background). I honestly do not see any advantage to Linux over other versions of UNIX, but I do see disadvantages. > I cringe at the way RH and its derivatives do > things. It will only get worse. As Thomas Andrews said in _Titanic_, "It is a mathematical certainty." > I would add however that, when I must deal with > linux and I have a choice I prefer using Debian. Hmm ... it looks sort of free, for the time being. Anyway, if Linux were a real OS, you wouldn't have to buy or acquire anyone's distribution; the OS would be complete in itself, just like FreeBSD. As soon as you have to _buy_ something from someone to get the OS to work, you've shot yourself in the foot--you are tied to one organization. > Some people's largest complaint about Debian > is that the stable release is so far behind the > linux mainstream but others would argue that > this is what makes it so good. The latter group probably has a lot more IT experience than the former. Anyone who salivates over every new release has never had to maintain production computer systems. The more experience a person has as a system administrator, the more likely he is to be extremely reluctant about upgrading to a new release except when absolutely, unavoidably necessary. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 1: 1:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBD0037B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:01:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67185C389; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:01:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA19775; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:01:38 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBK92DN65939; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:02:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Stephen J Bevan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <0gn10gyxwd.10g@localhost.localdomain> <15391.50782.619686.198748@apathy.etunnels.com> <736673ztx8.673@localhost.localdomain> <15392.14082.852072.868370@apathy.etunnels.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 20 Dec 2001 01:02:13 -0800 In-Reply-To: <15392.14082.852072.868370@apathy.etunnels.com> Message-ID: Lines: 51 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stephen J Bevan writes: > Gary W. Swearingen writes: > > I welcome a thoughtful answer as well as an answer to why more people > > don't find this distasteful ploy to be bullying. > > My thoughtful answer is that they -- me -- simply don't see it as > either a distateful plot or bullying. I had "ploy", but "plot" IS more accurate, now that you mention it. You still didn't answer "why", but I guess it IS a hard question. Let me play devil's advocate and answer for you: "Because it isn't distasteful or bullying." But it's not a good answer. Here's a better one: Most people don't find the punishment of non-GPL open source developers by GPL developers distasteful or bullying because they either haven't thought much about it or they have and came to the erroneous conclusion that there is no punishment or unfairness or they want to force non-GPL open source developers to become GPL developers. > RMS is quite up front about his views > IMHO you either pay the price or walk way. ("H" for "Honest"?) So why is there so much talk of "sharing" and "this is free software" and "anyone may"? And how does that attitude mesh with the fourth GNU Freedom: The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits. What does "public" mean to you? "Upfront", my foot. Sure, most people soon understand the essential "price" of "free" software, but there's a huge amount of misleading propaganda drawing people to help RMS punish non-copyleft software developers, many of whom would either prefer to not punish closed source developers or other open developers (through an escape clause for the latter). Cigarettes have clear warnings too and foolish people still take up smoking by the millions. But misleading propaganda only helps make the bullying distasteful. Bullying has to do mostly with unfairness. The GPL developer says "I can use your software, but you can't use mine" and "put the software that you're letting me use for free under the GPL, or else I'll force you to choose between writing you're own, buying it, or getting out of software development -- it's your free choice". > The only person I can see forcing you is yourself. So you can't understand why I would say "the government is forcing us to license our dogs", because we're free to get rid of them? Sorry. We don't speak the same language. End of discussion. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 1: 7:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EB0637B416 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 20F0A3EB9; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 04:09:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13671BAA5; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 04:09:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 04:09:35 -0500 (EST) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Jamie Oulman , Brad Knowles , Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: <017201c18931$e44933d0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20011220035021.Y21508-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >> I agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly. > >It was a significant factor in my choice of FreeBSD. I really did not wish >to become tied to a new vendor after being tied to Microsoft--what would be >the point? Exactly. Although I must admit that Apple's OS X is pretty tempting. You are at the mercy of Apple, but at least you have the added bonus of knowing that some really good BSDers are working for them, that they've made the bulk of their codebase available, and that minor revision updates are essentially free. I love the BSDs and use them every place they're appropriate. Right now my home desktop PC is a FreeBSD RELENG_4 system running the latest XFree86 4 and all the goodies and it does okay but there are times I wish I could tap into a larger commercial software base. I used an SGI IRIS Indigo on my home desktop for a long time and still use an Indigo2 IMPACT daily as my office workstation. SGI IRIX is one of the better commercial unices in my opinion and it's essential I force myself to stay current with it since it runs a lot of our big iron. I'm not averse to commercial software on the desktop. I certainly can tell you than when I used the IRIS Indigo at home most of my workspaces were filled with shells logged into my FreeBSD machines though. =) I probably need to keep myself current on OS X anyway since it's a potential replacement for IRIX workstations if SGI goes under. Apple AIUI essentially purchased SGI's OpenGL implementation and worked it into Aqua. They've also got support for some killer hardware like the Radeons. >Do they really think that any >of these distributors will resist the temptation to move towards >proprietary, commercial products and increasingly away from anything that is >public and free? RMS provided them a license that puts a very annoying limit on how much money these companies can make. As Value Add increases one sees diminishing returns on the investment. >Linux has been dramatically overhyped and overmarketed--and these are always >bad signs for any type of software product, as they demonstrate that there >are people with ulterior motives promoting them. It doesn't just apply to software. See the Billboard charts, Siskel and Ebert, and the NY Times Bestseller list. ;-) >My impression is that >Linux appeals to people who have no previous exposure to UNIX, and do not >know just how scraggly and primitive Linux is compared to established >versions of the operating system. I have seen the same thing. People with previous UNIX experience generally feel the same way about linux that I do. >I honestly do not see any advantage to Linux over other versions of UNIX, >but I do see disadvantages. Agreed. >> I cringe at the way RH and its derivatives do >> things. > >It will only get worse. As Thomas Andrews said in _Titanic_, "It is a >mathematical certainty." Oh I'm sure it will. >> I would add however that, when I must deal with >> linux and I have a choice I prefer using Debian. > >Hmm ... it looks sort of free, for the time being. Anyway, if Linux were a >real OS, you wouldn't have to buy or acquire anyone's distribution; the OS >would be complete in itself, just like FreeBSD. As soon as you have to >_buy_ something from someone to get the OS to work, you've shot yourself in >the foot--you are tied to one organization. You do not have to buy Debian. It's a non-profit like FreeBSD. You simply need to download a floppy or CDROM image and boot it and you can install over the net. Debian does sell CDs but they're the same type of deal as the FreeBSD CDROMs, they benefit the Debian project. >> Some people's largest complaint about Debian >> is that the stable release is so far behind the >> linux mainstream but others would argue that >> this is what makes it so good. > >The latter group probably has a lot more IT experience than the former. >Anyone who salivates over every new release has never had to maintain >production computer systems. The more experience a person has as a system >administrator, the more likely he is to be extremely reluctant about >upgrading to a new release except when absolutely, unavoidably necessary. Amen. Brandon D. Valentine -- "Iam mens praetrepidans avet vagari." - G. Valerius Catullus, Carmina, XLVI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 1:16:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7350237B419 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBK9GbR27858; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:16:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <018f01c18937$076439a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Brandon D. Valentine" Cc: "Jamie Oulman" , "Brad Knowles" , References: <20011220035021.Y21508-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:16:37 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brandon writes: > Although I must admit that Apple's OS X is pretty > tempting. Commercial software is often tempting; it's designed that way. > You are at the mercy of Apple ... That's all I need to know, and that's a deal-killer. Apple is much worse than Microsoft, and they have a monopoly on both hardware and software, so once you are locked in, you're doomed. But I am curious: If new Apple hardware runs Mac OS X, and OS X is based on FreeBSD, does that mean that you can install honest-to-goodness FreeBSD on an Apple hardware platform--with no trace of Apple software anywhere? Now _that_ might be interesting. > ... they've made the bulk of their codebase available ... When the OS fails inside their code, that isn't going to help. I've already had a small number of occasions with FreeBSD on which I couldn't figure out how something was actually working, and it was very nice to have all the source on the system so that I can actually find out for myself exactly what is going on. Without source, you have to depend on technical support, which not only costs money but is almost always incompetent to help (they often have no more information than you do, despite claims and implications to the contrary). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 2: 1:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from torpy.unbc.ca (torpy.unbc.ca [142.207.144.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF72D37B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:01:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ugrad.unbc.ca (ugrad.unbc.ca [142.207.112.20]) by torpy.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA4510364; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:01:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (karlj000@localhost) by ugrad.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA21151; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:00:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ugrad.unbc.ca: karlj000 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:00:59 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Karlson To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > ... We could snag a copy of GCC before the "license change" and just > > continue on with it under the GPL. Isn't that the point > > of the GPL - to restrict the ability of someone to do something > > proprietary, even if it is Stallman himself? > Please tell us how the GPL restricts the ability of someone to do > something "proprietary" any more than the BSD licence does (or the MIT > license, which I suppose RMS knew before creating the GPL, does)? > I don't think you can, because that isn't the point of the GPL. Okay, "proprietary" is perhaps not a good word, but I still can't think of a better one. What I was getting at is that even if Stallman were to change the license on his "free software," users would always have the ability to grab an older version and fork development at that point. In that sense, the GPL (as well as the BSD and MIT) licenses prevent someone from pulling some stunt like getting everyone hooked then changing the agreement - which sounds suspiciously like a tactic used by some large software companies. But because the code was open previously, there is no such thing as a forced "vendor lock-in." > I think it's fair to refer to something being more proprietary or less, > as an idiomatic way of saying that the proprietor has withheld his > proprietary rights (distribution, etc) under more or less stringent Yes, that's sort of what I was getting at. > conditions, but please don't engage in GNU-speak like Bruce Perens who > says (in the book "Open Sources...") "The GPL's definition of a > proprietary program is any program with a license that doesn't give you > as many rights as the GPL." (He's a principle author of GNU-speak, but > this derives from RMS. BTW, the body of the GPL doesn't even use the > word and the rest of it just uses it in passing. One can't believe > everything one reads, even in a book. Also, even closed source licenses > could give you as many rights as the GPL does; they would just have > different conditions.) And "proprietary" doesn't even mean "closed". > "Closed" does, though; people should use it more often. Agreed. Even the fact that he claims something that "doesn't give you as many rights as the GPL" as being prorietary is not very good. Does that mean that the BSDL is also not proprietary, because it actually gives you more rights? I don't think they would agree. As I've stated before, I don't have a particular love of the GPL, and I actually somewhat have a distaste for it. (Your message reads as if you're trying to educate me on the GPL, but I am aware of what it's about.) PS - I've seen that "Open Sources" book around a few times, and I thought it might be an interesting read, but I've always thought it's probably pretty Linux and GPL preachy. Is it actually worth my time to read? -- Jeremy The difference between legal separation and divorce is that legal separation gives the man time to hide his money. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 2: 8:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net (deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C13837B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.12] helo=harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net) by deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GQcz-00004w-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:14:17 -0800 Received: from [209.179.200.2] (helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16GQYg-0004Ml-00; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:09:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3C1FA272.D9679E44@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:09:22 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Craig Harding , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218102351.02841f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124204.02812700@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > >No, it's not. It's not in the boot path, and it's not in the > >required for installation path. > > That's only one very restrictive definition of "in the kernel." > While it is true that the code is not loaded unless needed, this > is true of many integral parts of operating systems. They aren't integral, if they aren't in the boot or installation path, since they are not required to get a minimally functional system. > The GPLed code is compiled every time you compile the kernel and > is dynamically linked to it. This is a problem for the distributors of already binary code that is GPL'ed rather than LGPL'ed. As it is, FreeBSD does not distribute with binary code created this way, since to do so would potentially cause legal problems. It is up to the user's discretion whether or not they choose to create a kerne with static or dynamic GPL'ed modules. > (As you know, the FSF considers dynamic linking to make two pieces > of code a single unit.) By this argument, installation of GPL'ed code, which is linked against system libraries, and uses kernel services on non-GPL'ed OSs is at risk. I don't believe this. > The code is referred to in the kernel's internal tables as a part > that can be loaded at will. Actually, no it is not. It is in an FS directory or index file entry, and an index of this sort is subject to compilation copyright only. > The the kernel is fully aware that it can bring in the code in > response to certain conditions just like any other driver or > module. In short, the GPLed code is integrated. It is part of the > kernel. No, it's not, since it's not present by default, since the distribution of GPL'ed code linked against the kernel wuld potentially make the distribution illegal. The kernel is also "aware" that it can load GPL'ed binaries (e.g. in response to certain conditions in the "exec(2)" system call implementation code), but that doesn't make the kernel GPL'ed. I think the worst you could argue is that a product based on a requirement for the GPL'ed driver/module in order to function would either not be legally redistributable and/or would not be legally licensed. The way around that for something like a set top box, of course, would be to simply license the use of the box, rather than selling it or the code. The GPL is full of loopholes like that. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 2:37:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow035o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3160B37B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 02:37:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pcow035o.blueyonder.co.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:37:50 +0000 Received: from fluoxetine.lan (unverified) by pcow035o.blueyonder.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.5) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:37:50 +0000 Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:40:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Andrew McKay X-Sender: andy@fluoxetine.lan To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: <018f01c18937$076439a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: AA> But I am curious: If new Apple hardware runs Mac OS X, and OS X is based on AA> FreeBSD, does that mean that you can install honest-to-goodness FreeBSD on AA> an Apple hardware platform--with no trace of Apple software anywhere? Now AA> _that_ might be interesting. AIUI, OSX has (amongst other things) a Mach kernel and a FreeBSD userland. They will have been ported/rewritten/tweaked as necessary for PPC. FreeBSD on PPC is something the FreeBSD project is keen to work towards, and there's no reason why it can't happen, but afaik it's not a mature port yet. I may be wrong but I see no /sys/ppc yet. -- Andrew McKay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 5: 8:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aquinas.techsquare.com (aquinas.techsquare.com [199.190.186.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26F4C37B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 05:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by aquinas.techsquare.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBKD8qA25478; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:08:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jamie) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:08:52 -0500 From: Jamie Oulman To: Andrew McKay Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Message-ID: <20011220080852.A25410@techsquare.com> References: <018f01c18937$076439a0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from andy@openirc.co.uk on Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 10:40:34AM +0000 Organization: TechSquare Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > AIUI, OSX has (amongst other things) a Mach kernel and a FreeBSD userland. > They will have been ported/rewritten/tweaked as necessary for PPC. > FreeBSD on PPC is something the FreeBSD project is keen to work towards, > and there's no reason why it can't happen, but afaik it's not a mature > port yet. I may be wrong but I see no /sys/ppc yet. from what i understand darwin is free to use. Its Aqua that comes with a price tag. I have an ibook with 10.1 and i must say its been nothing but a pleasure to work with since ive had it. The OS still need's work. But its going to be a major contender down the road to Microsoft and the Linux camp's alike. -jfo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 5:47:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549C037B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 05:47:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA11890; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:47:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011220064324.0264db70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:46:38 -0700 To: Jonathan Lemon , "Gary W. Swearingen" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:55 PM 12/19/2001, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >This is where we appear to differ. I reject the notion that because >it is possible in some universe to combine BSD + GPL'd code, that it >automatically forces all other copies of the BSD code to fall under >the GPL. It does not. But that's not what's going on here! In this case, the FreeBSD distribution -- as you download it, get it from CVS, or get it on the disk -- is forced to be covered by the GPL. This is bad enough, but worse still, the license is "sticky;" from that point on, the code is covered by the GPL. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 5:54:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8ACD37B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 05:54:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA11952; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:54:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011220065030.0264c930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:54:17 -0700 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), Stephen J Bevan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <15392.14082.852072.868370@apathy.etunnels.com> <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <0gn10gyxwd.10g@localhost.localdomain> <15391.50782.619686.198748@apathy.etunnels.com> <736673ztx8.673@localhost.localdomain> <15392.14082.852072.868370@apathy.etunnels.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:02 AM 12/20/2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >And how does that attitude mesh with >the fourth GNU Freedom: > > The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to > the public, so that the whole community benefits. This "freedom" is not a "freedom" at all. (In truth, it's reminiscent of George Orwell's "Freedom is slavery.") It is more clearly stated as, "The freedom to improve the program, but only on the condition that you are COMPELLED to give up all remuneration for your hard work." It doesn't sound so "free" if stated in this much less deceptive way. >What does "public" mean to you? "Upfront", my foot. Sure, most people >soon understand the essential "price" of "free" software, but there's >a huge amount of misleading propaganda drawing people to help RMS punish >non-copyleft software developers, many of whom would either prefer to >not punish closed source developers or other open developers (through an >escape clause for the latter). Cigarettes have clear warnings too and >foolish people still take up smoking by the millions. > >But misleading propaganda only helps make the bullying distasteful. Agree 100%. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 5:59:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2945B37B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 05:59:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA12005; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:59:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011220065451.02653af0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:58:49 -0700 To: Jeremy Karlson , "Gary W. Swearingen" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:00 AM 12/20/2001, Jeremy Karlson wrote: >Okay, "proprietary" is perhaps not a good word, but I still can't think of >a better one. Try "commercial." GPLed software cannot be commercial, because it cannot be the object of commerce. Yes, you can sell a disc with the software ON it for money, but you cannot license the software ITSELF for money. >What I was getting at is that even if Stallman were to >change the license on his "free software," users would always have the >ability to grab an older version and fork development at that point. Yes, but then they would have to maintain a parallel version which there is no economic incentive to develop (because the current GPL already precludes any reward for doing so). >PS - I've seen that "Open Sources" book around a few times, and I thought >it might be an interesting read, but I've always thought it's probably >pretty Linux and GPL preachy. Is it actually worth my time to read? McKusick's essay in that book is worth a read. Stallman and Perens' contributions are pure propaganda. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 6:27:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aquinas.techsquare.com (aquinas.techsquare.com [199.190.186.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6451637B419 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:27:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by aquinas.techsquare.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBKERle26857; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:27:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jamie) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:27:47 -0500 From: Jamie Oulman To: "Brandon D. Valentine" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Message-ID: <20011220092747.A26807@techsquare.com> References: <20011220011035.A18793@techsquare.com> <20011220031755.O21508-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011220031755.O21508-100000@turtle.looksharp.net>; from bandix@looksharp.net on Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 03:20:59AM -0500 Organization: TechSquare Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > your best to protect a system from /known/ vulnerabilities. There's no > telling who's out there reading source code and finding exploits without > reporting them. It's hopefully not a common scenario, but the > possibility exists. There's no way to say for certain that a given box > is uncrackable. I know this is not what you meant by your statement, > but the distinction is an important one to make IMO. yes. that is correct. there is the chance that the attacker-to-be has something that hasnt gone public yet. but in those kinds of situations. who is safe? -jfo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 7:55: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (66-188-92-95.mad.wi.charter.com [66.188.92.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D56137B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 07:55:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBKFsnC26642; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:54:49 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:54:49 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Brett Glass Cc: Jonathan Lemon , "Gary W. Swearingen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011220095449.A26326@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011220064324.0264db70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011220064324.0264db70@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 06:46:38AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:55 PM 12/19/2001, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > >This is where we appear to differ. I reject the notion that because > >it is possible in some universe to combine BSD + GPL'd code, that it > >automatically forces all other copies of the BSD code to fall under > >the GPL. > > It does not. But that's not what's going on here! In this case, the > FreeBSD distribution -- as you download it, get it from CVS, or get > it on the disk -- is forced to be covered by the GPL. No, this is the exact notion that I am rejecting. I can download/obtain the BSD bits without any GPL bits, as they are kept separate. So simply because the GPL bits exist, does not mean the BSD bits are tainted. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 8: 3:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1919637B405; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:02:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from bmah.dyndns.org ([12.233.149.189]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20011220160250.ZWSM19716.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@bmah.dyndns.org>; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:02:50 +0000 Received: (from bmah@localhost) by bmah.dyndns.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBKG2oH48588; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:02:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah) Message-Id: <200112201602.fBKG2oH48588@bmah.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Murray Stokely Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: The Twelve Days of Code-Freeze (was Re: We're now in a Code Freeze) In-Reply-To: <20011220050917.O27392@windriver.com> References: <20011220050917.O27392@windriver.com> Comments: In-reply-to Murray Stokely message dated "Thu, 20 Dec 2001 05:09:17 -0800." From: "Bruce A. Mah" Reply-To: bmah@FreeBSD.org X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_-1691678108P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:02:50 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --==_Exmh_-1691678108P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii [follow-ups to -chat@] If memory serves me right, Murray Stokely wrote: > As promised we've now entered the code freeze for RELENG_4. Please > submit all MFC requests to re@FreeBSD.org before committing to this > branch. For your hacking and/or holiday pleasure, I give you: "The Twelve Days of Code-Freeze" Sung to the tune of: "The Twelve Days of Christmas" Words by: bmah@freebsd.org On the first day of code-freeze, my -hackers gave to me: A bad patch in the src/ tree. On the second day of code-freeze, my -hackers gave to me: Two flamewars, And a bad patch in the src/ tree. On the third day of code-freeze, my -hackers gave to me: Three bikesheds, Two flamewars, And a bad patch in the src/ tree. On the fourth day of code-freeze, my -hackers gave to me: Four broken worlds, Three bikesheds, Two flamewars, And a bad patch in the src/ tree. On the fifth day of code-freeze, my -hackers gave to me: Five fairings, Four broken worlds, Three bikesheds, Two flamewars, And a bad patch in the src/ tree. On the sixth day of code-freeze, my -hackers gave to me: Six cores a-dumping, Five fairings, Four broken worlds, Three bikesheds, Two flamewars, And a bad patch in the src/ tree. On the seventh day of code-freeze, my -hackers gave to me: Seven ports a-breaking, Six cores a-dumping, Five fairings, Four broken worlds, Three bikesheds, Two flamewars, And a bad patch in the src/ tree. On the eighth day of code-freeze, my -hackers gave to me: Eight floppies filling, Seven ports a-breaking, Six cores a-dumping, Five fairings, Four broken worlds, Three bikesheds, Two flamewars, And a bad patch in the src/ tree. On the ninth day of code-freeze, my -hackers gave to me: Nine diffs conflicting, Eight floppies filling, Seven ports a-breaking, Six cores a-dumping, Five fairings, Four broken worlds, Three bikesheds, Two flamewars, And a bad patch in the src/ tree. On the tenth day of code-freeze, my -hackers gave to me: Ten mirrors crashing, Nine diffs conflicting, Eight floppies filling, Seven ports a-breaking, Six cores a-dumping, Five fairings, Four broken worlds, Three bikesheds, Two flamewars, And a bad patch in the src/ tree. On the eleventh day of code-freeze, my -hackers gave to me: Eleven snapshots failing, Ten mirrors crashing, Nine diffs conflicting, Eight floppies filling, Seven ports a-breaking, Six cores a-dumping, Five fairings, Four broken worlds, Three bikesheds, Two flamewars, And a bad patch in the src/ tree. On the twelfth day of code-freeze, my -hackers gave to me: Twelve PRs opening, Eleven snapshots failing, Ten mirrors crashing, Nine diffs conflicting, Eight floppies filling, Seven ports a-breaking, Six cores a-dumping, Five fairings, Four broken worlds, Three bikesheds, Two flamewars, And a bad patch in the src/ tree. --==_Exmh_-1691678108P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Exmh version 2.3.1+ 05/14/2001 iD8DBQE8Iguq2MoxcVugUsMRAjUKAKDmkyKKXt7/sGNYJqPBj8Ft8xUHOwCgnXRx 9BIjwgAbSg7laU1Mx/lhqgM= =9jGg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_-1691678108P-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 8:20:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (66-188-92-95.mad.wi.charter.com [66.188.92.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 427B037B509 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:20:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBKGKH527435; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:20:17 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:20:16 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: "Brandon D. Valentine" Cc: Jonathan Lemon , mwm-dated-1009255696.e529b9@mired.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Dirty Little Open Source Secret Message-ID: <20011220102016.B26326@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200112200511.fBK5Bpl05690@prism.flugsvamp.com> <20011220030222.T21508-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20011220030222.T21508-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 03:04:37AM -0500, Brandon D. Valentine wrote: > On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > >However, replacing Perl with C will be accepted, (and is being done too). > >So if you produce suitable working code, it will find its way into the tree. > > I would assume that also holds true for replacing Perl will > sh/awk/sed/etc? There are some things obviously implemented in Perl > because C sucks at them. Awk can do a lot of those things quite well. > Awk has just fallen into the shadows behind the sledgehammer of > programming languages, Perl. Ah, now things start to get sticky. One of the reasons why perl was introducuced was to replace some horribly nasty awk scripts that were just getting too unmaintainable. Yes, you _can_ do the same thing in awk, but the resulting mess is so bad that becomes too fragile. (If you want to see what I mean, look at "cvs co -p -r1.19 src/sys/kern/vnode_if.sh" for an example) If you're really interested in this, I can point you to a couple of people who are working on C replacements. The main reason C wasn't used originally was because of the initial effort needed in writing the various parsing code bits. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 9: 8:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from squall.waterspout.com (squall.waterspout.com [208.13.56.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97D4837B416; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:08:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by squall.waterspout.com (Postfix, from userid 1050) id C17A89B08; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:06:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:06:19 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: "Bruce A. Mah" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The Twelve Days of Code-Freeze (was Re: We're now in a Code Freeze) Message-ID: <20011220120619.G73815@squall.waterspout.com> Reply-To: Will Andrews References: <20011220050917.O27392@windriver.com> <200112201602.fBKG2oH48588@bmah.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200112201602.fBKG2oH48588@bmah.dyndns.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 08:02:50AM -0800, Bruce A. Mah wrote: > For your hacking and/or holiday pleasure, I give you: [.. *raises eyebrow* ..] Someone add this to the FreeBSD Book of Lore. -- wca To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 9:53:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp013.mail.yahoo.com (smtp013.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7B31F37B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:53:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from ihws.com (HELO ?192.168.0.102?) (63.218.21.114) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2001 17:53:40 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:53:35 -0500 Subject: Re: The Twelve Days of Code-Freeze (was Re: We're now in a Code Freeze) From: Frank Laszlo To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20011220120619.G73815@squall.waterspout.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org on 12/20/01 12:06 PM, Will Andrews used the force from will@csociety.org: > On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 08:02:50AM -0800, Bruce A. Mah wrote: >> For your hacking and/or holiday pleasure, I give you: > > [.. *raises eyebrow* ..] > Someone add this to the FreeBSD Book of Lore. The ghost! Havent seen you in a while, lol _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 9:55:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.cc (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E21137B417; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:55:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from shade.nectar.cc (shade.nectar.cc [10.0.1.110]) by gw.nectar.cc (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BDCB2D; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:55:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by shade.nectar.cc (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBKHsjr19934; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:54:45 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:54:44 -0600 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: "Bruce A. Mah" Cc: Murray Stokely , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The Twelve Days of Code-Freeze (was Re: We're now in a Code Freeze) Message-ID: <20011220175444.GA19924@shade.nectar.cc> Mail-Followup-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , "Bruce A. Mah" , Murray Stokely , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20011220050917.O27392@windriver.com> <200112201602.fBKG2oH48588@bmah.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200112201602.fBKG2oH48588@bmah.dyndns.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.1i X-Url: http://www.nectar.cc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 08:02:50AM -0800, Bruce A. Mah wrote: > For your hacking and/or holiday pleasure, I give you: > > "The Twelve Days of Code-Freeze" > Sung to the tune of: "The Twelve Days of Christmas" > Words by: bmah@freebsd.org Applause!! :-) -- Jacques A. Vidrine http://www.nectar.cc/ NTT/Verio SME . FreeBSD UNIX . Heimdal Kerberos jvidrine@verio.net . nectar@FreeBSD.org . nectar@kth.se To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 11:48:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [216.33.66.196]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBCC237B416; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:48:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 71CB381D01; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:48:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:48:38 -0600 From: Alfred Perlstein To: "Bruce A. Mah" Cc: Murray Stokely , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The Twelve Days of Code-Freeze (was Re: We're now in a Code Freeze) Message-ID: <20011220134838.E48837@elvis.mu.org> References: <20011220050917.O27392@windriver.com> <200112201602.fBKG2oH48588@bmah.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200112201602.fBKG2oH48588@bmah.dyndns.org>; from bmah@FreeBSD.org on Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 08:02:50AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Bruce A. Mah [011220 10:03] wrote: > [follow-ups to -chat@] > > If memory serves me right, Murray Stokely wrote: > > > As promised we've now entered the code freeze for RELENG_4. Please > > submit all MFC requests to re@FreeBSD.org before committing to this > > branch. > > For your hacking and/or holiday pleasure, I give you: Someone get me a change of pants! heh Any chance this can be put under some misc doc page? We ought to have a FreeBSD-humor archive somewhere. :) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 12: 9:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from torpy.unbc.ca (torpy.unbc.ca [142.207.144.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C80537B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:09:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from ugrad.unbc.ca (ugrad.unbc.ca [142.207.112.20]) by torpy.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA4557332; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:09:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (karlj000@localhost) by ugrad.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26137; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:09:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ugrad.unbc.ca: karlj000 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:09:23 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Karlson To: Brett Glass Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011220065451.02653af0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Okay, "proprietary" is perhaps not a good word, but I still can't think of > >a better one. > Try "commercial." GPLed software cannot be commercial, because it > cannot be the object of commerce. Yes, you can sell a disc with > the software ON it for money, but you cannot license the software > ITSELF for money. I don't think "commercial" does it either. There can be commercially created GPLed code - JFS, for example. Again, it depends on your interpretation of commercial. I would consider it to be "commercially created," where you seem to consider it as "an object of commerce." Both, I think, are correct. > >What I was getting at is that even if Stallman were to > >change the license on his "free software," users would always have the > >ability to grab an older version and fork development at that point. > Yes, but then they would have to maintain a parallel version which > there is no economic incentive to develop (because the current GPL > already precludes any reward for doing so). You're right. But the option always exists. And if Stallman were to change the terms of the GPL to something frightening, I'm sure it would happen. There would be developers willing to continue with both licenses. They would eventually become different species. Sort of in the same way that Free, Net and Open have forked and grew into different projects, the same would happen to, say, GCC. > McKusick's essay in that book is worth a read. Stallman and Perens' > contributions are pure propaganda. I'd like to take your opinion as one that matters, but the above sounds like the statement of a person whose mind is set in one regard and rejects all other opinions. Stallman and Perens essays may be completely preachy, and I don't doubt that, but I'm sure there is still something interesting and worth reading in them. What about the other contributors? Something, say, that isn't about the GPL and BSDL fight? -- Jeremy The difference between legal separation and divorce is that legal separation gives the man time to hide his money. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 12:49:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE32337B416 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:49:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id fBKKnOu14873; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:49:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA14489; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:49:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14485; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:49:23 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:49:23 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard To: Mike Meyer Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Dirty Little Open Source Secret In-Reply-To: <15393.28048.349600.568435@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Mike Meyer wrote: > Gary W. Swearingen types: > > I was about to suggest to Nils that few developers will care to work on > > purifying FreeBSD but few will object to replacing parts whenever > > someone gets the itch to prepare a good replacement and does it. > > So if I were to rewrite all the parts of the base system that used > Perl in Python, no one would object to replacing Perl in the base > system with Python? After all, the PSF license looks more like a BSD > license than the GPL. Having stumbled down this road before, let me warn you first of how treacherous it is. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 13:29:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D40737B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0A1DBF3B; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:29:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15876; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:29:53 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBKLUPp66515; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:30:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Jeremy Karlson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 20 Dec 2001 13:30:25 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 35 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeremy Karlson writes: > a better one. What I was getting at is that even if Stallman were to > change the license on his "free software," users would always have the > ability to grab an older version and fork development at that point. Yes, of course. I just jumped on the thing about the "point" of the GPL because I had just been thinking about the real point of the GPL being to cause people to "close" their source to closed-source developers and I got confused about what you said the point was. Sorry. > Agreed. Even the fact that he claims something that "doesn't give you > as many rights as the GPL" as being prorietary is not very good. Does > that mean that the BSDL is also not proprietary, because it actually > gives you more rights? I don't think they would agree. I think they would agree that the BSDL is not "proprietary" and that it is "free software". But they are quick to note that derivatives are likely to be neither. But, again, all of this software is proprietary, in that it is owned and used under license, and all of it is free software, in that there are no licensing fees. > PS - I've seen that "Open Sources" book around a few times, and I thought > it might be an interesting read, but I've always thought it's probably > pretty Linux and GPL preachy. Is it actually worth my time to read? How can I know? The amount of Linux stuff is quite low, excepting a chapter by Torvalds and the full (?) text of the famous early Torvalds-Tannembaum (sp?) e-debate. It's mostly histories (personal and projects), with a big dose of preaching about Free Software and Copyleft and Open Source philosophy. But there's several chapters by agnostics too. One by Kirk McKusic. But like other religious texts, you risk a kind of brain-washing experience from the repetition of a few ideas. There's plenty of history on the WWW, which might a better alternative unless you can find it in the dirt-cheap bin, like I did. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 14: 0:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBDB837B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:00:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 328C7C1C4; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:00:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24900; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:00:05 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBKM0bo66521; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:00:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brett Glass Cc: Jeremy Karlson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011220065451.02653af0@localhost> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 20 Dec 2001 14:00:37 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011220065451.02653af0@localhost> Message-ID: <0dn10dwnzu.10d@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 28 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > At 03:00 AM 12/20/2001, Jeremy Karlson wrote: > > >Okay, "proprietary" is perhaps not a good word, but I still can't think of > >a better one. "Closed" is almost always the appropriate word when I see "proprietary" misused. Actually, your "do something proprietary" is OK as far as I can tell, which is why I didn't criticize it directly and used it myself. I suppose someone can do something "like proprietors/owners characteristically do" or something like that. The little lecture was just to note that the word doesn't mean "closed" or "non-GPL". > Try "commercial." GPLed software cannot be commercial, because it > cannot be the object of commerce. Yes, you can sell a disc with > the software ON it for money, but you cannot license the software > ITSELF for money. But everyone uses "software" as an ambiguous synonym for both an intangible "software work" and a tangible "software copy", and you may sell copies in commerce. Actually, you can sell the work too, and I suppose that some dot-goners have done that, but I'm not sure that qualifies as commerce. Also, you can license GPL software in return for cross-licensing fees in the form of valuable intellectual property rights from derivers (which happens in every derivation of GPL software). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 14:19:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F50B37B41A for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:19:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B7F0BE67; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:19:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA30883; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:19:55 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBKMKQJ66524; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:20:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 20 Dec 2001 14:20:26 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > Simple. If you do a project based on code that uses the GPL, > you do not have the option of withholding your source code. If you do a > project based on code that uses the BSDL, then you *do* have the option > of withholding your source code. Sorry. I don't know what I was thinking, other than that the thought was heavy on my mind, at the time, that the GPL had another point than the one claimed. (I think I confused his point with a third one to which I've rightly (?) responded like that in other forums.) Good of you to read past my too-many parentheses and recognize that the GPL both restricts AND encourages licensees to "do something proprietary". (It restricts one from keeping your work in a derivative from other GPL users, but it encourages/forces one to keep your work from non-GPL users.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 14:54:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60A0F37B416 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:54:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D732EC55F; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:54:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07583; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:54:26 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBKMsra66527; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:54:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 20 Dec 2001 14:54:53 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> Message-ID: Lines: 62 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan Lemon writes: > Well, I agree with the above 4 sentences, but not the prior argument. > I imagine that this point is where you (and Brett, probably) lose most > of your readers. > > The concept (to me anyway) is simple: > > 1. There exists a GPL encumbered source. Call this A. > 2. I have some pure BSD kernel sources. Call this B. > 3. Make a copy of the BSD code. > cp -R /usr/src /usr/src2. Call this C. > 3'. (optional) Move copy C far away (into another universe) > 4. Add GPL code A to BSD code C. > > Now, by my logic, and my reading of the GPL, yes, the resulting > product which contains 'A' and 'C' is now under the GPL, and so > copy C automatically falls under the GPL too. > > BUT! > > Copy B is _NOT_ under the GPL. > > This is where we appear to differ. I reject the notion that because > it is possible in some universe to combine BSD + GPL'd code, that it > automatically forces all other copies of the BSD code to fall under > the GPL. Thank you for explaining carefully, as I requested. Your logic that you referred to is, I think, OK. But your premise (?) that it is copyies that are licensed is wrong. The GPL is a license of copyrights. (The one of importance here is the exclusive right "to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work".) It's not a license to use a copy of a work (like the M$ EULA is, among other things). (Actually, if you legally own a copy of a GPL'd work, you may use it for certain purposes (running, not deriving) without accepting or even knowing of the license -- and it's waivers of liability! You can't legally own a copy of a M$ EULA work; you only license the copy (and the work) by clicking "accept", etc.) When you combine copies you also combine the works by a kind of instantaneous communication (lawyers > physicists). :-) This then propagates instantaneously to other copies under the same concept. I expect that you can see how this affects the situation, if you don't disagree with what I've said about works and copies. Note that other exclusive copyrights are (and there are more not important here): "to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords" "to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending" Now, if you're wondering how a GPL licensor can license one copy to the GNU herd and another copy to a closed source developer for big money (as occasionally happens), that is because we allow each other to use sloppy language to save time. In this case, the work is being licensed under multiple licenses. Note that since the closed developer may also accept the GPL simultaneously (unless his custom license prevents it), then he may pick and choose terms to some extent. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 15:10:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C6D37B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:10:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0852BD5B; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12074; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:10:44 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBKNBG566533; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:11:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: "Brandon D. Valentine" Cc: Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <20011220030449.M21508-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 20 Dec 2001 15:11:15 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011220030449.M21508-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Brandon D. Valentine" writes: > On 19 Dec 2001, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > >> Also known as a "wildebeest." Coincidence? > > > >(I though it was "wildebeast". Thanks for the proper spelling.) > > I thought it was thought. Spelling flames are lame. If you insist on > writing them at least proofread your flame. ;-) You seem to imply that my comment (one line in a longer message) was was a spelling flame. It wasn't. His was the correct spelling and I was just thanking him for the new knowledge that he had imparted. BTW, if spelling flames are lame, why did you flame me? I don't consider spelling flames lame, if used judiciously, but I know that many people feel the need to post messages complaining about them, so I seldom use them and almost never in a separate message. Happy? I DO consider typo flames (like yours) lame. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 15:18: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (66-188-92-95.mad.wi.charter.com [66.188.92.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2191D37B41B for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:17:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBKNHdT42650; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:17:39 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:17:39 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Jonathan Lemon , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011220171739.J26326@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 02:54:53PM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Jonathan Lemon writes: > > > > This is where we appear to differ. I reject the notion that because > > it is possible in some universe to combine BSD + GPL'd code, that it > > automatically forces all other copies of the BSD code to fall under > > the GPL. > > > When you combine copies you also combine the works by a kind of > instantaneous communication (lawyers > physicists). :-) This then > propagates instantaneously to other copies under the same concept. All I can say here is that I understand what you are saying, but that I (and probably 99% of the world) disagree with you. Suppose I write a piece of software, and release it under the BSD license. It gets committed to the FreeBSD kernel. Someone else tweaks it and slaps a GPL license on it. You would have all copies instetaneously tainted by the GPL. Sorry, but you're forgetting one simple fact: as the Author, I maintain all Copyrights. So my original work by itself is (and cannot be) tainted by the GPL unless I reassign the copyright. This *IS* well tested international copyright law. (Berne Convention) End. Of. Story. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 15:38: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F7737B448; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:37:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 772093EC0; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:39:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7384DBAA6; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:39:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:39:34 -0500 (EST) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: "Bruce A. Mah" , Murray Stokely , Subject: Re: The Twelve Days of Code-Freeze (was Re: We're now in a Code Freeze) In-Reply-To: <20011220134838.E48837@elvis.mu.org> Message-ID: <20011220183659.S27166-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >We ought to have a FreeBSD-humor archive somewhere. :) I thought that was /usr/share/doc/faq/misc.html. =) Brandon D. Valentine -- "Iam mens praetrepidans avet vagari." - G. Valerius Catullus, Carmina, XLVI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 15:42:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED14D37B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:42:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19355; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:41:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011220163646.01c749e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:41:48 -0700 To: Jeremy Karlson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011220065451.02653af0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:09 PM 12/20/2001, Jeremy Karlson wrote: >I don't think "commercial" does it either. There can be commercially >created GPLed code - JFS, for example. JFS is not commercial. It is GPLed and thus cannot be sold for money. Yes, it was created by a commercial entity. But it is not commercial now. >> McKusick's essay in that book is worth a read. Stallman and Perens' >> contributions are pure propaganda. > >I'd like to take your opinion as one that matters, but the above sounds >like the statement of a person whose mind is set in one regard and rejects >all other opinions. Not so. Perens and Stallman's contributions to that book are not new material. They're the same deceptive rhetoric that both have always spouted. >Stallman and Perens essays may be completely preachy, >and I don't doubt that, but I'm sure there is still something interesting >and worth reading in them. The propaganda techniques are mildly interesting... but, again, you've seen them before if you've read anything else by these people. >What about the other contributors? Something, >say, that isn't about the GPL and BSDL fight? There's nothing in there about a "GPL and BSDL fight," unless you count the denigrating remarks about BSD by Stallman and Raymond. Except for McKusick's essay, which is a straightforward history, the book is steeply slanted toward the GPL, which most of the authors praise completely uncritically. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 16:15:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4006D37B41B for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:15:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C98C3B3; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:15:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29639; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:15:30 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBL0G1M66539; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:16:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219235317.00e55b00@localhost> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 20 Dec 2001 16:16:01 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011219235317.00e55b00@localhost> Message-ID: <716671whq6.671@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 32 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > The correct definition of "proprietary" is as follows: A product > or protocol is proprietary when others cannot produce products that > interoperate with it, are compatible with it, or are equivalent to > it. Well, that sentence is undoubtably true; those kinds of products and protocols are surely proprietary. But one shouldn't then use that as a definition of "proprietary". I suppose Stallman thought: Software is proprietary when it has more restrictions than the GPL. Both yours and his are true, but it doesn't justify the redefining "proprietary" to exactly the limitations of use you are concerned with. Another term for what you describe is "closed" products or protocols. Hence the "Open Software Foundation", etc. The fact that much proprietary information is secret has lead people to confuse the two (and also "closed"). They have distinct meanings. Patented ideas are unquestionably proprietary information and yet completly open. Same for GPL'd and BSDL'd software (except that it IS questioned ;-). In its rawest, least mangled-by-confusion, meaning it is simply "not in the public domain". Here is a more verbose version along the line you propose: "Something is proprietary when others are not free to use it in some manner." Or "Something is proprietary when a person has limited the rights of others to use it." I recognize that groups come up with jargon, but if they're going to talk Intellectual Property, they shouldn't mess with IP jargon. It's probably too late, though; maybe I should give up. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 16:33:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A30E37B41A for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:33:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([62.253.148.1]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20011221003322.KIAQ3849.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com>; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:33:22 +0000 Received: from boog.goatsucker.org (boog.goatsucker.org [192.168.1.3]) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fBL0XJn12209; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:33:19 GMT (envelope-from scott@boog.goatsucker.org) Received: (from scott@localhost) by boog.goatsucker.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA04367; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:32:20 GMT (envelope-from scott) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:32:20 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Jamie Oulman , Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Message-ID: <20011221003220.B444@localhost> References: <20011219192206.J5735-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> <20011220011035.A18793@techsquare.com> <014a01c18927$f2270d60$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <014a01c18927$f2270d60$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com on Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 08:28:37AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 08:28:37AM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Jamie writes: > > > that and redhat has yet to come > > close to a release thats as stable as 6.2. > > i think mainly because vendors are quick > > to release when the latest and greatest > > kernel/gnome/kde comes out. > > That is inevitable when a vendor is trying to make money. One of the > advantages of _truly_ open-source software is that nobody has any motivation > to come out with "upgrades" every few months, because they don't derive any > monetary advantage from doing so, and they do not have bills to pay. Sadly, even those who work on truly free software still have bills to pay :-( Or am I missing out on some big secret here? -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 16:44:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 483A237B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:44:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92469C541; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:44:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04510; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:44:42 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBL0jDi66542; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:45:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <20011218121011.E21649@monorchid.lemis.com> <4hzo4hyv3c.o4h@localhost.localdomain> <4.3.2.7.2.20011217221801.02841bc0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218102351.02841f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218124204.02812700@localhost> <3C1FA272.D9679E44@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 20 Dec 2001 16:45:12 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C1FA272.D9679E44@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Actually, no it is not. It is in an FS directory or index file entry, > and an index of this sort is subject to compilation copyright only. I think there's no practical differance between a compilation copyright and a derivative one, except to the extent that the GPL licensor will consider it to pass the "mere aggregation" clause. Is that what you refer to? Or do you mean that it is a compilation which is not creative enough to be considered a work of authorship deserving of copyrights. > I think the worst you could argue is that a product based on a > requirement for the GPL'ed driver/module in order to function > would either not be legally redistributable and/or would not be > legally licensed. > > The way around that for something like a set top box, of course, > would be to simply license the use of the box, rather than > selling it or the code. You're still copying or distributing it. AFAIK, nothing else matters. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 16:54:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEA5837B419 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:54:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([62.253.148.1]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20011221005419.JYQG19962.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com>; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:54:19 +0000 Received: from boog.goatsucker.org (boog.goatsucker.org [192.168.1.3]) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fBL0QZn12147; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:26:35 GMT (envelope-from scott@boog.goatsucker.org) Received: (from scott@localhost) by boog.goatsucker.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA04255; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:25:44 GMT (envelope-from scott) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:25:44 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Message-ID: <20011221002544.A444@localhost> References: <20011219192206.J5735-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> <012001c188ed$69182020$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <012001c188ed$69182020$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@atkielski.com on Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 01:29:37AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 01:29:37AM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Francisco writes: > > > Unfortunately as long as FreeBSD doesn't do > > better with Compaq Raids I am not sure how > > much luck I will have with production machines. > > In what way is Linux better with Compaq RAIDs? They work on Linux. -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 18:52: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6879C37B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:51:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fBL2prM79674; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 03:51:53 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <031001c189ca$72cdbed0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Scott Mitchell" Cc: "Francisco Reyes" , "FreeBSD Chat List" References: <20011219192206.J5735-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> <012001c188ed$69182020$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011221002544.A444@localhost> Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 03:51:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Scott writes: > They work on Linux. So I surmised, but why don't they work with FreeBSD? No drivers, buggy drivers, missing features, or what? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 18:54:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C30BF37B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:54:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63320BF13; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:54:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00974; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:54:50 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBL2tKV66559; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:55:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <20011220171739.J26326@prism.flugsvamp.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 20 Dec 2001 18:55:19 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011220171739.J26326@prism.flugsvamp.com> Message-ID: Lines: 47 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan Lemon writes: > Suppose I write a piece of software, and release it under the BSD > license. It gets committed to the FreeBSD kernel. Someone else > tweaks it and slaps a GPL license on it. You would have all copies > instetaneously tainted by the GPL. This belies your claim to have understood me. You're scenario there is not something that may legally occur. Let's call your work "A" and the tweaker's work in a derivative of A, "B". You own A; nobody but you has the right to slap a GPL license on it. The tweaker is allowed by the BSDL to make a derivative of A. This is a work of authorship which we'll call "C". It contains A and B. The tweaker is free to distribte C because of the BSDL, but he may not slap a GPL on C, because it is not all his to license. From 17 USC 103: "The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such work,..." (Of course, when using sloppy language, we say that the tweaker is licensing C, but in fact, he is only licensing B and you are licensing A. If the tweaker uses the GPL on B, we commonly say that the GPL covers C (and maybe the A within it), but his GPL only applies to B since that is all he owns (read quote above again).) Now this is an easy case since the tweaker may use a modified GPL and combine his B with your A and distribute the whole with part A not under the terms of the GPL. But if he did not own all of the GPL'd parts, he'd be stuck, unless he could get you to allow A to be distributed under the terms of the GPL (or more likely under both GPL and BSDL). > Sorry, but you're forgetting one simple fact: as the Author, I maintain > all Copyrights. So my original work by itself is (and cannot be) tainted > by the GPL unless I reassign the copyright. This *IS* well tested > international copyright law. (Berne Convention) Sorry, but I'm not forgetting any of that; that is why the derivative work may not be put under the GPL unless you agree to put your part under the GPL. The fact that 99% of the world feels free to infringe on the copyright of BSD-licensed works says as much about BSD licensors as it does about the world's understanding of copyright law. But if the derivation is done and it is distributed with your cooperatation and you say things like "the kernel is under the GPL", then don't be suprised if, someday, some fancy lawyer makes a convincing case (in his client's mind, if not a court) that you've implied consent to the GPL'ing of your part. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 18:55: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from turtle.looksharp.net (cc360882-d.strhg1.mi.home.com [24.13.43.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C263037B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:54:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 29F543EBE; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:57:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turtle.looksharp.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 267C4BAA5; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:57:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:57:02 -0500 (EST) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Scott Mitchell , Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: <031001c189ca$72cdbed0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20011220215653.Q28481-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: >Scott writes: > >> They work on Linux. > >So I surmised, but why don't they work with FreeBSD? No drivers, buggy >drivers, missing features, or what? http://people.freebsd.org/~msmith/RAID/ Brandon D. Valentine -- "Iam mens praetrepidans avet vagari." - G. Valerius Catullus, Carmina, XLVI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 19: 6:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E409737B416 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:06:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fBL36Cs81869; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 04:06:12 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <032001c189cc$72726d80$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Brandon D. Valentine" Cc: "FreeBSD Chat List" References: <20011220215653.Q28481-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 04:06:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks. Looks like a simple case of an unavailable driver. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandon D. Valentine" To: "Anthony Atkielski" Cc: "Scott Mitchell" ; "Francisco Reyes" ; "FreeBSD Chat List" Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 03:57 Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > >Scott writes: > > > >> They work on Linux. > > > >So I surmised, but why don't they work with FreeBSD? No drivers, buggy > >drivers, missing features, or what? > > http://people.freebsd.org/~msmith/RAID/ > > Brandon D. Valentine > -- > "Iam mens praetrepidans avet vagari." > - G. Valerius Catullus, Carmina, XLVI > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 19:15:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5147B37B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:15:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 87605 invoked by uid 100); 21 Dec 2001 03:15:34 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15394.43349.782935.475024@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:15:33 -0600 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen types: > When you combine copies you also combine the works by a kind of > instantaneous communication (lawyers > physicists). :-) This then > propagates instantaneously to other copies under the same concept. Having read your analysis of the derivative work case, I want to know what "combine copies" means? This sounds like it's possible for party A to license software S from party B, then have the terms of the license changed by party C by "combining copies", even though they have nothing to do with A, B or any rights to S. That one is a bit hard to swallow. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 19:27:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aquinas.techsquare.com (aquinas.techsquare.com [199.190.186.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F62A37B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:27:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by aquinas.techsquare.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBL3RWM40684; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:27:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jamie) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:27:32 -0500 From: Jamie Oulman To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Message-ID: <20011220222732.A40660@techsquare.com> References: <20011219192206.J5735-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> <012001c188ed$69182020$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20011221002544.A444@localhost> <031001c189ca$72cdbed0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <031001c189ca$72cdbed0$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@atkielski.com on Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 03:51:52AM +0100 Organization: TechSquare Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > They work on Linux. > > So I surmised, but why don't they work with FreeBSD? No drivers, buggy > drivers, missing features, or what? They _barely_ work on Linux. I dont know specifics but from what a coworker was telling me the support is slim-to-none. -jfo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 19:36:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6182637B405; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id fBL3ahR31419; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 04:36:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <033601c189d0$b591f910$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "FreeBSD Advocacy" , Subject: Microsoft sues Lindows Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 04:36:42 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Microsoft is suing Lindows, Inc., claiming that the latter's name conflicts with the former's Windows trademark: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-8246647.html?tag=mn_hd Not really anything specific to FreeBSD, but since it is UNIX it seemed interesting anyway. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 19:40:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D562C37B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:40:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AD07BEE3; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:40:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA09436; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:40:09 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBL3edu66589; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:40:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: government and public domain (was Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop) References: From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 20 Dec 2001 19:40:39 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <59pu59utoo.u59@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 44 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" writes: > Where can I find official documents about requiring government > developed/sponsored software to be offered as public domain? > > (And maybe, in what cases, does it not have to be public domain?) According to http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22Copyright+Act+of+1976+(House+Report+94-1476%22+group:*gnu.misc.discuss*&hl=en&rnum=1&selm=950u2e%24rm8%241%40coward.ks.cc.utah.edu the House Judiciary Committee Report that accompanied the passage of the Copyright Act of 1976 (House Report 94-1476) says: The effect of section 105 is intended to place all works of the United States Government, published or unpublished, in the public domain. The poster has more to say about what you ask above. From http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/105.html Sec. 105. - Subject matter of copyright: United States Government works Copyright protection under this title is not available for any work of the United States Government, but the United States Government is not precluded from receiving and holding copyrights transferred to it by assignment, bequest, or otherwise I snagged this off something, but don't know the source: "In accordance with Air Force Instruction (AFI) 51-303, it is not copyrighted, but is the property of the United States government." I haven't found the term "public domain" used often in the statutes and regulations I've seen, but the term seems to be well understood to mean "not under copyright, patent, trademark, trade sectret, etc." by people who seem to be familiar with IP. It occasionally is seen to mean only "announced or available to the public, under some or no conditions". I've noticed that much stuff that comes out of the Federal government is launder though small companies who are paid to produce the work and then are allows to retain ownership of the work which they license to the Feds. Nice work, if you can get it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 20:44:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 042BA37B41A for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:44:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fBL4iZE32609; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:44:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:45:05 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: "Brandon D. Valentine" Cc: Anthony Atkielski , Scott Mitchell , Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: <20011220215653.Q28481-100000@turtle.looksharp.net> Message-ID: <20011220234433.K9043-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Brandon D. Valentine wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > > >Scott writes: > > > >> They work on Linux. > > > >So I surmised, but why don't they work with FreeBSD? No drivers, buggy > >drivers, missing features, or what? > > http://people.freebsd.org/~msmith/RAID/ I guess I should write to Mike and ask him, but a release 4.4 would not even see the disks off from a Compaq DL380 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 20:45:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE89437B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 20:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fBL4j5E16985; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:45:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:45:36 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Scott Mitchell , Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: <031001c189ca$72cdbed0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: <20011220234520.E9043-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Scott writes: > > > They work on Linux. > > So I surmised, but why don't they work with FreeBSD? No drivers, buggy > drivers, missing features, or what? Freebsd can't even see the drives. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 21:10:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (66-188-92-95.mad.wi.charter.com [66.188.92.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFBF037B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBL5ALd53473; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:10:21 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:10:21 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011220231021.A52651@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <20011220171739.J26326@prism.flugsvamp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 06:55:19PM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Jonathan Lemon writes: > > > Suppose I write a piece of software, and release it under the BSD > > license. It gets committed to the FreeBSD kernel. Someone else > > tweaks it and slaps a GPL license on it. You would have all copies > > instetaneously tainted by the GPL. > > This belies your claim to have understood me. You're scenario there > is not something that may legally occur. Let's call your work "A" > and the tweaker's work in a derivative of A, "B". You own A; nobody but > you has the right to slap a GPL license on it. The tweaker is allowed > by the BSDL to make a derivative of A. This is a work of authorship > which we'll call "C". It contains A and B. The tweaker is free to > distribte C because of the BSDL, but he may not slap a GPL on C, because > it is not all his to license. Well, if I am to believe you here, then it means that you have just proved that there is no worry about the GPL at all, since in your own words, "he may not slap a GPL on C". "C" being the FreeBSD kernel of course, which, when you get down to it, is simply a collection of works "A", which is all BSD licensed. Sorry, you just argued yourself into a corner here. Either the someone can slap a GPL on the BSD code, in which this thread has relevancy, or they cannot, in which case the whole thing is moot. > But if the derivation is done and it is distributed with your > cooperatation and you say things like "the kernel is under the GPL", But we (me, greg, RMS, other posters) are _NOT_ saying that, *you* are. It has been our position from square one, that the BSD kernel is not under the GPL. Don't try and put your words in our camp. I believe I'll end this thread here, since you don't appear to be able to mount a cohesive argument, and any further logic would be a waste of my time. Feel free to have the last word. :-) -- Joanthan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 21:19:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atkielski.com (atkielski.com [161.58.232.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB5937B417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:19:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by atkielski.com (8.11.6) id fBL5J3v04166; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 06:19:03 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <035e01c189df$01ad6e20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Francisco Reyes" Cc: "Scott Mitchell" , "Francisco Reyes" , "FreeBSD Chat List" References: <20011220234520.E9043-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 06:19:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco writes: > Freebsd can't even see the drives. Hmm ... that would diminish I/O performance considerably. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 22:50:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45AB137B416 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:50:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A0F8BD0B; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:50:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA12032; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:50:02 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBL6oUM66604; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:50:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <15394.43349.782935.475024@guru.mired.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 20 Dec 2001 22:50:30 -0800 In-Reply-To: <15394.43349.782935.475024@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: Lines: 76 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Mike Meyer" writes: > Gary W. Swearingen types: > > When you combine copies you also combine the works by a kind of > > instantaneous communication (lawyers > physicists). :-) This then > > propagates instantaneously to other copies under the same concept. I should have know better than to write that silly thing. Bound to be the part quoted. It was going to be hard to explain and I figured people would have figured it out on their own by then anyway. Whoops. > Having read your analysis of the derivative work case, I want to know > what "combine copies" means? From 17 USC 101: compilation -- For copyright purposes, a work formed by selecting and assembling preexisting materials (generally facts or data unprotected by copyright) in a unique way to form an original work of authorship. A database is a good example of a compilation. A compilation must have some creative aspects--such as the way it is organized and the materials selected for inclusion--to qualify for copyright protection. For example, a list of favorite Web sites including the word "gelatin," arranged by category, would be rather creative, while a phone directory would not. Also: collective work -- For copyright purposes, a work, such as a periodical, anthology or encyclopedia, in which a number of separate and independent works are assembled into one work. To create a collective work, permission must be obtained from the owners of the copyrights of the constituent parts (assuming such parts are not already in the public domain). Although the author of the compilation may not own the copyright to any of the individual parts, the creativity involved in selecting and organizing the constituent materials is in itself protected by copyright. 17 USC 101 unfortunately doesn't define "derivative", but has a section 103 partially titled "Compilations and derivative works" in which it always uses that phrase as a unit as if they're not much different. The definitions seem to be couched in terms of "works" rather than "copies", but there will, of course, always be copies of the works compiled and copies of the compiled work. Also generally instructive are the short sections 102 and 106: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/101.html http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/106.html What I was getting at in the quote above is that the works and copies are intertwined; you can't have a copy without a work and vice-versa. You can have multiple copies of one work, of course. My "combine copies" was loose writing. I doubt it makes much difference which term from 17 USC it most closely matches as far as my argument goes, but for the case being discussed I suppose it would have been better to say something like "create a collective work" or maybe just "derivative". > This sounds like it's possible for party A to license software S from > party B, then have the terms of the license changed by party C by > "combining copies", even though they have nothing to do with A, B or > any rights to S. That one is a bit hard to swallow. I'm not sure I understand the scenario, or at least the reason for it. C could "combine copies" of S and something else and create a collective work (which I think can also be called a "derivative"), but, not owning S or having license to use it, may not copy or distribute copies of such work. (Actually, combining copies probably constitutes copying of the parts an so he probably can't even create the original copy.) He certainly may not change any license on S, unless there's something in this scenario you haven't told me (like something's BSDL'd or GPL'd). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 20 23: 0:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3A24737B405 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:00:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 89719 invoked by uid 100); 21 Dec 2001 07:00:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15394.56866.830152.580700@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 01:00:50 -0600 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <15394.43349.782935.475024@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen types: > "Mike Meyer" writes: > My "combine copies" was loose writing. I doubt it makes much difference > which term from 17 USC it most closely matches as far as my argument > goes, but for the case being discussed I suppose it would have been > better to say something like "create a collective work" or maybe just > "derivative". > > > This sounds like it's possible for party A to license software S from > > party B, then have the terms of the license changed by party C by > > "combining copies", even though they have nothing to do with A, B or > > any rights to S. That one is a bit hard to swallow. > > I'm not sure I understand the scenario, or at least the reason for it. > > C could "combine copies" of S and something else and create a collective > work (which I think can also be called a "derivative"), but, not owning > S or having license to use it, may not copy or distribute copies of such > work. (Actually, combining copies probably constitutes copying of the > parts an so he probably can't even create the original copy.) > > He certainly may not change any license on S, unless there's something > in this scenario you haven't told me (like something's BSDL'd or GPL'd). Ok, here's a more concrete scenario. B distributes S under BSDL, which is how A gets it. This also means that C can get a copy and redistribute it. In particular, combining C with software T, which is GPL'ed. From what you said earlier, all versions of S are now covered by the GPL, even though the original license was BSDL, not GPL. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 5:45:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4278E37B405 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 05:45:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([62.253.152.113]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20011221002638.KEZK3849.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com>; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:26:38 +0000 Received: from boog.goatsucker.org (boog.goatsucker.org [192.168.1.3]) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fBL0QZn12147; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:26:35 GMT (envelope-from scott@boog.goatsucker.org) Received: (from scott@localhost) by boog.goatsucker.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA04255; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:25:44 GMT (envelope-from scott) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:25:44 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Message-ID: <20011221002544.A444@localhost> References: <20011219192206.J5735-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> <012001c188ed$69182020$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <012001c188ed$69182020$0a00000a@atkielski.com>; from anthony@atkielski.com on Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 01:29:37AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 01:29:37AM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Francisco writes: > > > Unfortunately as long as FreeBSD doesn't do > > better with Compaq Raids I am not sure how > > much luck I will have with production machines. > > In what way is Linux better with Compaq RAIDs? They work on Linux. -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 6:25:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08AC737B405 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 06:25:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id fBLEO9823753; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:24:09 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <59pu59utoo.u59@localhost.localdomain> References: <59pu59utoo.u59@localhost.localdomain> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:50:57 +0100 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), "Jeremy C. Reed" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: government and public domain (was Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:40 PM -0800 on 2001/12/20, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > >http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22Copyright+Act+of+1976+(House+Report+94-1476%22+group:*gnu.misc.discuss*&hl=en&rnum=1&selm=950u2e%24rm8%241%40coward.ks.cc.utah.edu > > the House Judiciary Committee Report that accompanied the > passage of the Copyright Act of 1976 (House Report 94-1476) says: > > The effect of section 105 is intended to place all works of the > United States Government, published or unpublished, in the public > domain. Note that this does not apply to work that is classified, or For Official Use Only. Since just about everything in the gov't can be designated FOUO, this is a huge loophole that makes the above quoted material almost totally irrelevant. > I've noticed that much stuff that comes out of the Federal government > is launder though small companies who are paid to produce the work and > then are allows to retain ownership of the work which they license to > the Feds. Nice work, if you can get it. That's only for material that is not classified or FOUO. For classified and FOUO work, the source and everything related to it belongs to the government, and must be turned over by the contractor (i.e., the contractor is not allowed to keep a copy on their systems after the contract is terminated). -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 7:52:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from enigma.trueimpact.net (enigma.trueimpact.net [209.82.45.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5404A37B405; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 07:52:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from spirit.jaded.net (unknown [24.141.6.76]) by enigma.trueimpact.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7AC166B03; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:52:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dan@localhost) by spirit.jaded.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBLFqrr02293; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:52:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:52:53 -0500 From: Dan Moschuk To: "Bruce A. Mah" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Twelve Days of Code-Freeze (was Re: We're now in a Code Freeze) Message-ID: <20011221105253.D545@spirit.jaded.net> References: <20011220050917.O27392@windriver.com> <200112201602.fBKG2oH48588@bmah.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200112201602.fBKG2oH48588@bmah.dyndns.org>; from bmah@FreeBSD.ORG on Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 08:02:50AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | For your hacking and/or holiday pleasure, I give you: | | "The Twelve Days of Code-Freeze" | Sung to the tune of: "The Twelve Days of Christmas" | Words by: bmah@freebsd.org Very nice! But you have too much time on your hands. :> Seasons greetings (and since it's the 21st, happy Yule) Bruce et. al. ! -Dan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 8: 2:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97A5137B41A for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA56700; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:02:27 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:02:26 -0600 (CST) From: Chris Dillon To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: <20011219174812.W5523-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 Dec 2001, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Recently we installed a mail server with some low end hardware > (IDE disks, 128MB Ram) and installed FreeBSD. I used a 3Ware card > with Raid 10 for redundancy. Even though the machine doesn't seem > to be having problems yet (just started to move users from another > mail server) because a HD failed and the machine freezed > networking wants to move to more "stable" hardware. We have Compaq > machines here. So they have a Compaq DL380 with Compaq Raid. > FreeBSD doesn't run on this so they are rushing (it seems they > find it more appealing to "play" with Linux) to install Linux (I > think RedHat) on it. FreeBSD should run on a DL380 just fine. The RAID controller is the only thing you might have trouble with, but as of a few days ago, STABLE now supports the Compaq SmartArray 5* series (ciss driver). If that was your problem with running FreeBSD on it, try a recent STABLE snapshot. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet - Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures - IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, and ARM architectures under development - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 8:50:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FFBB37B419 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:50:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fBLGoUE13969; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:50:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:51:05 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: Chris Dillon Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011221115040.A10480-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Chris Dillon wrote: > FreeBSD should run on a DL380 just fine. The RAID controller is the > only thing you might have trouble with, but as of a few days ago, > STABLE now supports the Compaq SmartArray 5* series (ciss driver). > If that was your problem with running FreeBSD on it, try a recent > STABLE snapshot. I have read about "STABLE snapshots", but where are they? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 9:29:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14A9D37B416 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 09:29:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA58721; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:29:28 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:29:28 -0600 (CST) From: Chris Dillon To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: <20011221115040.A10480-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Chris Dillon wrote: > > > FreeBSD should run on a DL380 just fine. The RAID controller is the > > only thing you might have trouble with, but as of a few days ago, > > STABLE now supports the Compaq SmartArray 5* series (ciss driver). > > If that was your problem with running FreeBSD on it, try a recent > > STABLE snapshot. > > I have read about "STABLE snapshots", but where are they? They are equivalent to "releases" of FreeBSD made daily and available at ftp://releng4.freebsd.org and any other place that wishes to make one. You install them just like any official RELEASE. It is fairly easy to make your own snapshot by having a local copy of the CVS repository and using src/release/Makefile. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet - Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures - IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, and ARM architectures under development - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 11:56:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from out003pub.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5826337B419 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:56:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by out003pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id fBLJuTU27588 Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:56:29 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA80796; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:57:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:57:26 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Chris Dillon Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Message-ID: <20011221115726.A80777@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20011221115040.A10480-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us on Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 11:29:28AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks for that answer Chris. I've figured out what a PHB is, but what does MFC mean when referring to a code change? I thought it might mean Microsoft Foundation Classes, but that would be kind of weird when referring to a non Microsoft library. (?) Thanks, [RC] On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 11:29:28AM -0600, Chris Dillon wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Chris Dillon wrote: > > > > > FreeBSD should run on a DL380 just fine. The RAID controller is the > > > only thing you might have trouble with, but as of a few days ago, > > > STABLE now supports the Compaq SmartArray 5* series (ciss driver). > > > If that was your problem with running FreeBSD on it, try a recent > > > STABLE snapshot. > > > > I have read about "STABLE snapshots", but where are they? > > They are equivalent to "releases" of FreeBSD made daily and available > at ftp://releng4.freebsd.org and any other place that wishes to make > one. You install them just like any official RELEASE. It is fairly > easy to make your own snapshot by having a local copy of the CVS > repository and using src/release/Makefile. > > -- > Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net > FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet > - Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures > - IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, and ARM architectures under development > - http://www.freebsd.org > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 12: 0:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail12.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774BB37B41E for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:00:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 2112 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2001 20:00:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 21 Dec 2001 20:00:07 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20011221115726.A80777@darkstar.gte.net> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:59:50 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Robert Clark Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. Cc: FreeBSD Chat List , Cc: FreeBSD Chat List , Francisco Reyes , Chris Dillon Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Dec-01 Robert Clark wrote: > > Thanks for that answer Chris. > > I've figured out what a PHB is, but what does MFC mean > when referring to a code change? > > I thought it might mean Microsoft Foundation Classes, but > that would be kind of weird when referring to a non > Microsoft library. (?) MFC is documented in the FAQ at www.FreeBSD.org. :) However, the short version is that MFC == Merge From Current, which means that a change made in the -current branch is merged into the -stable branch. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 12:12:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.122.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B8F637B416 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:12:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.11.3/8.10.1) with ESMTP id fBLKCaf36357; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:12:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:12:36 -0800 (PST) From: Doug White To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: "Brandon D. Valentine" , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: <032001c189cc$72726d80$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Message-ID: X-All-Your-Base: are belong to us MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Thanks. Looks like a simple case of an unavailable driver. I'm suprised someone hasn't dragged peter or ps in here. Our Yahoo! twins have to work on that exact hardware, and run FreeBSD on it... Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 12:15:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89DE137B417 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:15:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00916; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:15:05 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011221131016.00d3dcc0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:15:02 -0700 To: Jonathan Lemon , "Gary W. Swearingen" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011220171739.J26326@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:17 PM 12/20/2001, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >Sorry, but you're forgetting one simple fact: as the Author, I maintain >all Copyrights. So my original work by itself is (and cannot be) tainted >by the GPL unless I reassign the copyright. This *IS* well tested >international copyright law. (Berne Convention) Jonathan: This is, alas, not quite true. Let's take the example of Linux syslogd. It was based on Berkeley syslogd, written by Eric Allman, and the man page credits him and other contributors. But the code has been thoroughly commmingled with GPLed additions and modifications, and there is nothing in the code to indicate which parts are GPLed and which are not. It is thus effectively GPLed. The same could happen to the kernel if we're not careful. I'm worried, (as you know) that we have long ago passed the boundaries of safety, and that we should have no GPLed code anywhere in the FreeBSD kernel *or* userland. (What to do about Perl would be an interesting issue. The Artistic License is business- and programmer-friendly and is not malicious, but Perl is dual-licensed under the Artistic License and the GPL. Larry probably did this without understanding the full impact or import of the GPL.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 12:17:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F0137B419 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fBLKHPE06816; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:17:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:18:01 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: Chris Dillon Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011221151624.R10480-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Chris Dillon wrote: >>Francisco Reyes previous wrote >> I have read about "STABLE snapshots", but where are they? > They are equivalent to "releases" of FreeBSD made daily and available > at ftp://releng4.freebsd.org and any other place that wishes to make > one. You install them just like any official RELEASE. Thanks for the URL. I knew what snapshots were. Just didn't know where to get them. > It is fairlyeasy to make your own snapshot by having a local copy of the CVS > repository and using src/release/Makefile. When you say a "local copy of the CVS repository", do you mean having my own up to date /usr/src? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 12:22:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D373137B417 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00995; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:22:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011221132110.00dd5a50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:22:04 -0700 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu, Brad Knowles From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Uses of Oxygen (was Re: Use of the UNIX Trademark) Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , Salvo Bartolotta , "P. U. (Uli) Kruppa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011011025200.V387@blossom.cjclark.org> References: <007701c15216$867d47c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:52 AM 10/11/2001, Crist J. Clark wrote: >I loved the Babylon 5 episode where they were afraid to use weapons >flying around in Jupiter's upper atmosphere since the methane and >other hydrocarbons would explode. Heh. Hydrocarbons are not >explosive. A hydrocarbon-oxygen mixture _is._ I thought that their concern (which still might not have been valid) was that they were concerned about starting a thermonuclear fusion reaction. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 12:43: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5988837B41B for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:43:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fBLKgpE25620; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:42:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:43:27 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: Chris Dillon Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011221153807.H10480-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Chris Dillon wrote: > > I have read about "STABLE snapshots", but where are they? > > They are equivalent to "releases" of FreeBSD made daily and available > at ftp://releng4.freebsd.org Just FTPed to releng4. The latest directory was 12-13 (so maybe they are not daily). I see no ISO images. Do I need to download the whole directory? Are there ISO snapshots anywhere? When I did 4.4 Release I just got the Image and then burnt a CD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 12:50:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D14AA37B405 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:50:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from bmah.dyndns.org ([12.233.149.189]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20011221205044.VFXB20122.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@bmah.dyndns.org>; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 20:50:44 +0000 Received: (from bmah@localhost) by bmah.dyndns.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBLKoiH20562; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:50:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah) Message-Id: <200112212050.fBLKoiH20562@bmah.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Francisco Reyes Cc: Chris Dillon , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-reply-to: <20011221153807.H10480-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> References: <20011221153807.H10480-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Comments: In-reply-to Francisco Reyes message dated "Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:43:27 -0500." From: bmah@acm.org (Bruce A. Mah) Reply-To: bmah@acm.org X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:50:43 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If memory serves me right, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Chris Dillon wrote: > > > I have read about "STABLE snapshots", but where are they? > > > > They are equivalent to "releases" of FreeBSD made daily and available > > at ftp://releng4.freebsd.org > > Just FTPed to releng4. The latest directory was 12-13 (so maybe they are > not daily). I see no ISO images. Do I need to download the whole > directory? Are there ISO snapshots anywhere? There's a bit of a problem with the snapshot generation at the moment (in a nutshell, the GENERIC kernel has grown too large to fit on a floppy disk). Various alternatives have been discussed on the -stable list, from pruning some drivers out of GENERIC to using bzip2 for the kernel instead of gzip. Yeah, this needs to get fixed, certainly before the first 4.5 relase candidate. :-p > When I did 4.4 Release I just got the Image and then burnt a CD. http://snapshots.jp.freebsd.org/ has ISO images, but they're probably having the same problem with the GENERIC kernel. Bruce. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 13:10: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (66-188-92-95.mad.wi.charter.com [66.188.92.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43F8737B417 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:10:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBLL9Uf83701; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:09:30 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:09:30 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Brett Glass Cc: Jonathan Lemon , "Gary W. Swearingen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011221150930.A78601@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <20011220171739.J26326@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011221131016.00d3dcc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011221131016.00d3dcc0@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 01:15:02PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:17 PM 12/20/2001, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > >Sorry, but you're forgetting one simple fact: as the Author, I maintain > >all Copyrights. So my original work by itself is (and cannot be) tainted > >by the GPL unless I reassign the copyright. This *IS* well tested > >international copyright law. (Berne Convention) > > Jonathan: > > This is, alas, not quite true. Let's take the example of Linux syslogd. > It was based on Berkeley syslogd, written by Eric Allman, and the man > page credits him and other contributors. But the code has been thoroughly > commmingled with GPLed additions and modifications, and there is nothing > in the code to indicate which parts are GPLed and which are not. It is > thus effectively GPLed. No, Brett, that's not what I said. I said that the *ORIGINAL* work by *itself* is not and cannot be tainted by the GPL. Yes, I agree with you here that the Linux syslogd (a derivative of Allman's original work) is tainted (by some definition of taint) by the GPL. But the original pre-GPL work, which probably still is available in an archive somewhere, is not GPL'd. Gary does not seem to understand this. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 13:22:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aquinas.techsquare.com (aquinas.techsquare.com [199.190.186.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA8F037B417 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jamie@localhost) by aquinas.techsquare.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBLLM3K56582; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 16:22:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jamie) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 16:22:03 -0500 From: Jamie Oulman To: James Howard Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Dirty Little Open Source Secret Message-ID: <20011221162203.A56565@techsquare.com> References: <15393.28048.349600.568435@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from howardjp@Glue.umd.edu on Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 03:49:23PM -0500 Organization: TechSquare Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > So if I were to rewrite all the parts of the base system that used > > Perl in Python, no one would object to replacing Perl in the base > > system with Python? After all, the PSF license looks more like a BSD > > license than the GPL. > what are we talking about specificly replacing? things like /usr/sbin/adduser. -jfo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 13:26:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout02.sul.t-online.com (mailout02.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB6337B419 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:26:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from fwd03.sul.t-online.de by mailout02.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 16HXBN-0005fA-07; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:26:21 +0100 Received: from pc5.abc (520067998749-0001@[217.233.121.18]) by fmrl03.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 16HXB9-0Wo2lcC; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:26:07 +0100 Received: (from nicolas@localhost) by pc5.abc (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBLLQ6p17953 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:26:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from list@rachinsky.de) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:26:06 +0100 From: Nicolas Rachinsky To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Message-ID: <20011221212606.GB17204@pc5.abc> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <20011220171739.J26326@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011221131016.00d3dcc0@localhost> <20011221150930.A78601@prism.flugsvamp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011221150930.A78601@prism.flugsvamp.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i X-Powered-by: FreeBSD X-Homepage: http://www.rachinsky.de X-PGP-Keyid: C11ABC0E X-PGP-Fingerprint: 19DB 8392 8FE0 814A 7362 EEBD A53B 526A C11A BC0E X-PGP-Key: http://www.rachinsky.de/nicolas/nicolas_rachinsky.asc X-Sender: 520067998749-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 03:09:30PM -0600, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 01:15:02PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 04:17 PM 12/20/2001, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > > > >Sorry, but you're forgetting one simple fact: as the Author, I maintain > > >all Copyrights. So my original work by itself is (and cannot be) tainted > > >by the GPL unless I reassign the copyright. This *IS* well tested > > >international copyright law. (Berne Convention) > > > > Jonathan: > > > > This is, alas, not quite true. Let's take the example of Linux syslogd. > > It was based on Berkeley syslogd, written by Eric Allman, and the man > > page credits him and other contributors. But the code has been thoroughly > > commmingled with GPLed additions and modifications, and there is nothing > > in the code to indicate which parts are GPLed and which are not. It is > > thus effectively GPLed. > > No, Brett, that's not what I said. I said that the *ORIGINAL* work > by *itself* is not and cannot be tainted by the GPL. Yes, I agree with > you here that the Linux syslogd (a derivative of Allman's original > work) is tainted (by some definition of taint) by the GPL. But the > original pre-GPL work, which probably still is available in an archive > somewhere, is not GPL'd. Just a question, there is an version of the BSD license which is incompatible with the GPL, which means I can't distribute a work with has both licenses. In the following I call this (incompatible) BSD license BSDL. If I have an program licensed with the BSDL, I'm not the author/copyright owner of. I have a source file which is GPL'd. If I combine this two for example by linking them together, I create a derivated work of both the source files. The GPL requires me to license the whole work under the GPL, which I can't do, so every distribution of the whole work in binary (and perhaps in source) is illegal. Is this correct? Are all the linux distributers violating copyright law? Nicolas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 13:26:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFDF737B417 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:26:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F8AABD45; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:26:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01683; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:26:28 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBLLQrD67190; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:26:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <15394.43349.782935.475024@guru.mired.org> <15394.56866.830152.580700@guru.mired.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 21 Dec 2001 13:26:53 -0800 In-Reply-To: <15394.56866.830152.580700@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: <18d718uuw2.718@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 43 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Mike Meyer" writes: > Ok, here's a more concrete scenario. B distributes S under BSDL, which > is how A gets it. This also means that C can get a copy and > redistribute it. In particular, combining C with software T, which is > GPL'ed. From what you said earlier, all versions of S are now covered > by the GPL, even though the original license was BSDL, not GPL. Yes, but not because C made it happen by his action; it's because the work S (and therefor all copies) must be put under the GPL by B before C can do his thing legitimately, because the GPL requires the entire work to be put under the GPL (unless it's a "mere aggregation" and thus not a GPL'd work). C makes a work by his action; if I mentioned some effect of it, I assumed the action was done legitimately. Please don't misunderstand me here because of the weirdness of what a M$-friendly lawyer likes to call "general public licenses" like BSDL and GPL. With non-public licenses, B could distribute multiple copies of one work, but under license BC to C and under license BD to D, etc., and there's no problem of licenses infecting each other through the common work. But with public licenses, things get messy and if you offer the public a license to the work it's a done deal, no matter whether they get the work via a pristine copy or a copy buried in a copy of some compilation. With the BSDL, people are free to distribute copies of compilations, but they are NOT free to change the license. Otherwise, they could just rewrite it to have no condtions whatsoever. (Alternate assumption for your scenario: If C owns T, C may license the collective work under a license other than the GPL, which keeps the parts under the BSDL and GPL separately. He need not obey the GPL on his own work and the BSDL permits redistribution.) Now let's consider reality. What usually happens, I suspect, is that C just distributes the compilation, claiming that it is under the GPL. People see a BSDL'd section (if the notice has not been removed) and treat it like BSDL'd code, ignoring the GPL claim. All copies of the BSDL code, even those in the collective work, are still really under the BSDL. The BSDL owner sees no harm done (though some disagree) and decides he'd rather not hire a lawyer. He's allowed his code to become effectively dual-licensed (I say, having not thought about it much). Note that your scenario is not the FreeBSD kernel one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 13:31:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FB9037B416 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:31:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBLLVR315661; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:31:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:31:27 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: To: "Bruce A. Mah" Cc: Francisco Reyes , Chris Dillon , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: <200112212050.fBLKoiH20562@bmah.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20011221132742.L16958-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Bruce A. Mah wrote: > There's a bit of a problem with the snapshot generation at the moment > (in a nutshell, the GENERIC kernel has grown too large to fit on a > floppy disk). Various alternatives have been discussed on the -stable > list, from pruning some drivers out of GENERIC to using bzip2 for the > kernel instead of gzip. Yeah, this needs to get fixed, certainly before > the first 4.5 relase candidate. :-p why not maintain 2 different kern.flp images? if you need a special driver, there's no reason you can't just have a larger image for cdrom booting, and a slightly stripped down one for the floppy. how about 3? load spare drivers as kernel modules off of a 3rd floppy disk.. > > When I did 4.4 Release I just got the Image and then burnt a CD. > > http://snapshots.jp.freebsd.org/ has ISO images, but they're probably > having the same problem with the GENERIC kernel. i'm assuming this means that the large image is to big even for booting from the cdrom? -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 13:33:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 137D337B405 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 97214 invoked by uid 100); 21 Dec 2001 21:33:49 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15395.43708.816636.295489@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:33:48 -0600 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: <18d718uuw2.718@localhost.localdomain> References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <15394.43349.782935.475024@guru.mired.org> <15394.56866.830152.580700@guru.mired.org> <18d718uuw2.718@localhost.localdomain> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen types: > "Mike Meyer" writes: > > > Ok, here's a more concrete scenario. B distributes S under BSDL, which > > is how A gets it. This also means that C can get a copy and > > redistribute it. In particular, combining C with software T, which is > > GPL'ed. From what you said earlier, all versions of S are now covered > > by the GPL, even though the original license was BSDL, not GPL. > Yes, but not because C made it happen by his action; it's because the > work S (and therefor all copies) must be put under the GPL by B before > C can do his thing legitimately, because the GPL requires the entire > work to be put under the GPL (unless it's a "mere aggregation" and > thus not a GPL'd work). C makes a work by his action; if I mentioned > some effect of it, I assumed the action was done legitimately. Slight change. Let's make S originally a BSDL source, but what A gets is a binary under their license, as allowed by the BSDL. Would you thereby claim that C's actions places a requirement on B to provide source to S to A if they want it? Or would B no longer be allowed to distribute a binary built from S without that requirement? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 13:52:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C7837B405 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:52:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA62284; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:52:40 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:52:40 -0600 (CST) From: Chris Dillon To: Robert Clark Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: <20011221115726.A80777@darkstar.gte.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Robert Clark wrote: > I've figured out what a PHB is, but what does MFC mean when > referring to a code change? Merge From Current. It means that a code change went into CURRENT first and was then brought into STABLE afterwards. MFS means the opposite, though that is rare. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet - Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures - IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, and ARM architectures under development - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 13:52:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EBFA37B419 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:52:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fBLLqeE08766; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 16:52:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 16:53:17 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: "Bruce A. Mah" Cc: Francisco Reyes , Chris Dillon , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: <200112212050.fBLKoiH20562@bmah.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20011221160028.U10480-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Bruce A. Mah wrote: > (in a nutshell, the GENERIC kernel has grown too large to fit on a > floppy disk). Various alternatives have been discussed on the -stable > list, from pruning some drivers out of GENERIC to using bzip2 for the > kernel instead of gzip. Yeah, this needs to get fixed, certainly before > the first 4.5 relase candidate. :-p But wouldn't it be good to still do a daily build? In particular for those that can just boot from CD? > http://snapshots.jp.freebsd.org/ has ISO images, but they're probably > having the same problem with the GENERIC kernel. I am downloading 12-14 from them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 13:56: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D51637B419 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:56:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA62343; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:56:04 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:56:03 -0600 (CST) From: Chris Dillon To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: <20011221151624.R10480-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Francisco Reyes wrote: > When you say a "local copy of the CVS repository", do you mean > having my own up to date /usr/src? No, I mean actually having a local copy of the CVS repository. :-) That isn't the same as having a /usr/src. See /usr/share/examples/cvs-supfile. Once you have your own local CVS repository, you can check out any current or older version of ports, src, or anything that is in the tree. Beware, it can get quite large if you try to check out the entire CVS tree. src-all, ports-all, and doc-all should be all you need to build your own snapshots. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet - Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures - IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, and ARM architectures under development - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 13:56:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F13937B405 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:56:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from bmah.dyndns.org ([12.233.149.189]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20011221215630.WWSW20122.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@bmah.dyndns.org>; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 21:56:30 +0000 Received: (from bmah@localhost) by bmah.dyndns.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBLLuUd21193; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:56:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah) Message-Id: <200112212156.fBLLuUd21193@bmah.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: "Bruce A. Mah" , Francisco Reyes , Chris Dillon , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-reply-to: <20011221132742.L16958-100000@localhost> References: <20011221132742.L16958-100000@localhost> Comments: In-reply-to "f.johan.beisser" message dated "Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:31:27 -0800." From: bmah@acm.org (Bruce A. Mah) Reply-To: bmah@acm.org X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:56:30 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If memory serves me right, "f.johan.beisser" wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Bruce A. Mah wrote: > > > There's a bit of a problem with the snapshot generation at the moment > > (in a nutshell, the GENERIC kernel has grown too large to fit on a > > floppy disk). Various alternatives have been discussed on the -stable > > list, from pruning some drivers out of GENERIC to using bzip2 for the > > kernel instead of gzip. Yeah, this needs to get fixed, certainly before > > the first 4.5 relase candidate. :-p > > why not maintain 2 different kern.flp images? > > if you need a special driver, there's no reason you can't just have a > larger image for cdrom booting, and a slightly stripped down one for the > floppy. > > how about 3? > > load spare drivers as kernel modules off of a 3rd floppy disk.. sysinstall(8) now has support for loading KLDs from floppy. This would help people bootstrap onto more machines. > > > When I did 4.4 Release I just got the Image and then burnt a CD. > > > > http://snapshots.jp.freebsd.org/ has ISO images, but they're probably > > having the same problem with the GENERIC kernel. > > i'm assuming this means that the large image is to big even for booting > from the cdrom? I presume (but haven't verified) that a kernel plus mfsroot would fit onto the 2.88MB filesystem used for CDROM booting. But it's a fact that the release-building process tries to build the 1.44MB floppy images and, if it can't, it falls over. :-p Yeah, this is non-optimal. We'll get our act together... Bruce. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 14: 0: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C345E37B416 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:00:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA62398; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:59:55 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:59:54 -0600 (CST) From: Chris Dillon To: Francisco Reyes Cc: "Bruce A. Mah" , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-Reply-To: <20011221160028.U10480-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Bruce A. Mah wrote: > > > (in a nutshell, the GENERIC kernel has grown too large to fit on a > > floppy disk). Various alternatives have been discussed on the -stable > > list, from pruning some drivers out of GENERIC to using bzip2 for the > > kernel instead of gzip. Yeah, this needs to get fixed, certainly before > > the first 4.5 relase candidate. :-p > > But wouldn't it be good to still do a daily build? In particular for those > that can just boot from CD? They are being done, they're just failing at the creation of the boot floppies and failing to complete at the moment. Once that is fixed, a snapshot will be able to finish to completion and be put on releng4.freebsd.org. You'll have to either wait until that is fixed or try to make your own snapshot with a stripped down GENERIC kernel that would not be too big. Hopefully a solution will be found soon. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet - Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures - IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, and ARM architectures under development - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 14: 0:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34E3D37B417 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:00:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from bmah.dyndns.org ([12.233.149.189]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20011221220005.WZCZ20122.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@bmah.dyndns.org>; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:00:05 +0000 Received: (from bmah@localhost) by bmah.dyndns.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBLM05s21253; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:00:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah) Message-Id: <200112212200.fBLM05s21253@bmah.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Francisco Reyes Cc: "Bruce A. Mah" , Chris Dillon , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Just lost one to Linux. Compaq server support. In-reply-to: <20011221160028.U10480-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> References: <20011221160028.U10480-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Comments: In-reply-to Francisco Reyes message dated "Fri, 21 Dec 2001 16:53:17 -0500." From: bmah@acm.org (Bruce A. Mah) Reply-To: bmah@acm.org X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:00:05 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If memory serves me right, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Fri, 21 Dec 2001, Bruce A. Mah wrote: > > > (in a nutshell, the GENERIC kernel has grown too large to fit on a > > floppy disk). Various alternatives have been discussed on the -stable > > list, from pruning some drivers out of GENERIC to using bzip2 for the > > kernel instead of gzip. Yeah, this needs to get fixed, certainly before > > the first 4.5 relase candidate. :-p > > But wouldn't it be good to still do a daily build? In particular for those > that can just boot from CD? It would be *great* to do a daily build, but src/release/Makefile really really really wants to build those 1.44MB floppy images. If they can't be made, the release build falls over. > > http://snapshots.jp.freebsd.org/ has ISO images, but they're probably > > having the same problem with the GENERIC kernel. > > I am downloading 12-14 from them. Cool. They are almost the same as the output of a standard "make release", except that they also have the spiffy PDF versions of the release notes and friends, in addition to the HTML and text. Bruce. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 14:35:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59C4137B417 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:35:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02466; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:35:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011221153354.00da44b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:35:07 -0700 To: Jonathan Lemon From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011221150930.A78601@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011221131016.00d3dcc0@localhost> <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <20011220171739.J26326@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011221131016.00d3dcc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:09 PM 12/21/2001, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >No, Brett, that's not what I said. I said that the *ORIGINAL* work >by *itself* is not and cannot be tainted by the GPL. Of course that's so. But this is not the interesting case. >Yes, I agree with >you here that the Linux syslogd (a derivative of Allman's original >work) is tainted (by some definition of taint) by the GPL. But the >original pre-GPL work, which probably still is available in an archive >somewhere, is not GPL'd. All the BSDs use derivatives of it. (It really needs a rewrite, since it has some serious shortcomings, but that's another issue.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 15:40:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monorchid.lemis.com (monorchid.lemis.com [192.109.197.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A29A737B417 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by monorchid.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 56DB0786E3; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 10:10:10 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 10:10:10 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Joe Halpin , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: spam Message-ID: <20011222101010.B55159@monorchid.lemis.com> References: <3C22A278.32AE9EB@attbi.com> <200112210540.fBL5e7584983@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200112210540.fBL5e7584983@apollo.backplane.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [following up to -chat] On Thursday, 20 December 2001 at 21:40:07 -0800, Matthew Dillon wrote: > >> I'm starting to get spam since I joined this list, and the spam is >> coming from freebsd.org. If I'm reading the headers right, it's coming >> in through a freebsd.org mail server. > > Ha. In the last two weeks the amount of personal spam I receive has > gone up exponentially. I'm getting around 60 a day now. I'm not > surprised that the list is seeing a big increase. Yes, I'm seeing this too. > I can only hope that our illustrious congress has grown as tired > of spam as I have and will fix the law to simply ban it. Interesting idea: since spam is not currently banned, set up a spam cannon to spam specifically members of congress. Use all the tricks of typical spammers. They'll get so sick of it that they'll quickly make it illegal. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 15:54:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9982E37B419; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:54:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBLNshq16314; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:54:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:54:43 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: To: Greg Lehey Cc: Matthew Dillon , Joe Halpin , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: spam In-Reply-To: <20011222101010.B55159@monorchid.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20011221155303.N16958-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > Interesting idea: since spam is not currently banned, set up a spam > cannon to spam specifically members of congress. Use all the tricks > of typical spammers. They'll get so sick of it that they'll quickly > make it illegal. To bad e-mail just doesn't carry the same weight with congress as dead-tree mail. perhaps a spam cannon that actually dropped leaflets in their office might work better. of course, then they'd ban unsolicited bulk mail to induviduals. still fun to think about. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 16:16: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [216.90.196.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5216837B41D for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 16:16:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kaila@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23327 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 18:15:54 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kaila@o-o.org) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 18:15:54 -0600 (CST) From: Kaila To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Is there a charter? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was wondering, aside from all the charters for all the mailing lists, is there a charter for the FreeBSD project itself? If so, is it publicly viewable? [ Name : Christine F. Maxwell ] [ ICQ : #45010616 ] [ EMail : cfm@o-o.org ] [ IRC : Kaila ] [ Home : http://www.cfm.o-o.org/ ] [ BBS : http://www.aci.o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 19:17:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9671037B417 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:17:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.11.6/8.11.4) with ESMTP id fBM3HU381449; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:17:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:17:30 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: Julian Stacey Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: spam In-Reply-To: <200112211610.fBLGATc85876@jhs.muc.de> Message-ID: <20011221220912.S81018-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moved from current. Today Julian Stacey wrote: > PS Maybe if we were to regularly automatically scramble all email addresses > in our web searchable mail archives ? just inserting ._ErAsE_ThIs_. in every > email address would protect us from easy harvesting by simple spammer robots. Spammers don't care if the addresses are valid. The `dictionary attacks' are the killers, from an ISP's POV. Day after day it is a constant flood of: al1@dom.ain al2@dom.ain ... al10@dom.ain alvin1@dom.ain alvin2@dom.ain ... zelda1@dom.ain mail# grep "User unknown" /var/log/maillog | wc -l 138872 That's in 22 hours and 14 minutes. We have just over 3,300 active email accounts. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is to computing what a McDonalds Certified Food Specialist is to fine cuisine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 19:45:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A50F37B405 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:45:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 99983 invoked by uid 100); 22 Dec 2001 03:45:45 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15396.489.261524.154119@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 21:45:45 -0600 To: jack Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: spam In-Reply-To: <20011221220912.S81018-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net> References: <200112211610.fBLGATc85876@jhs.muc.de> <20011221220912.S81018-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org jack types: > Moved from current. > Today Julian Stacey wrote: > > PS Maybe if we were to regularly automatically scramble all email addresses > > in our web searchable mail archives ? just inserting ._ErAsE_ThIs_. in every > > email address would protect us from easy harvesting by simple spammer robots. Well, all my email addresses in the archives (starting last week) expire after five days. Mail to the address that predates that arrangement will get the same treatment as expired addresses - a reply asking that the sender confirm that it isn't spam. Since most spam doesn't have a valid return address, I never see it. > Spammers don't care if the addresses are valid. The `dictionary > attacks' are the killers, from an ISP's POV. Day after day it is > a constant flood of: > al1@dom.ain > al2@dom.ain > ... > al10@dom.ain > alvin1@dom.ain > alvin2@dom.ain > ... > zelda1@dom.ain > > mail# grep "User unknown" /var/log/maillog | wc -l > 138872 > > That's in 22 hours and 14 minutes. We have just over 3,300 > active email accounts. The question in this case is whether that's spam or a DoS attack disguised as spam? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 21 19:59: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 781C237B405 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:58:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.11.6/8.11.4) with ESMTP id fBM3wn383301; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:58:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:58:49 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: spam In-Reply-To: <15396.489.261524.154119@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: <20011221225630.G83182-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Mike Meyer wrote: > > mail# grep "User unknown" /var/log/maillog | wc -l > > 138872 > > > > That's in 22 hours and 14 minutes. We have just over 3,300 > > active email accounts. > > The question in this case is whether that's spam or a DoS attack > disguised as spam? Spam, as copies accepted to spamtrap addresses prove. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is to computing what a McDonalds Certified Food Specialist is to fine cuisine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 22 1:52:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339FC37B443 for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 01:52:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.6/8.11.4) id fBM9q9t73727; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 01:52:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 01:52:08 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Kaila Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a charter? Message-ID: <20011222015208.C73609@citusc17.usc.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Izn7cH1Com+I3R9J" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from kaila@o-o.org on Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 06:15:54PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --Izn7cH1Com+I3R9J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 06:15:54PM -0600, Kaila wrote: >=20 > I was wondering, aside from all the charters for all the mailing lists, > is there a charter for the FreeBSD project itself? If so, is it publicly > viewable? Not as such, but this is probably the closest thing: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/history.html Kris --Izn7cH1Com+I3R9J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8JFfIWry0BWjoQKURAqsKAKCnCKUz1QRDivnHnES7/1dJjiinewCfa4Mn iBAHWfRjoYpTaSMRHpDkhck= =rSgu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Izn7cH1Com+I3R9J-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 22 14:40:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A73C37B405 for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 14:40:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B457CBCFC for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 14:40:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23626 for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 14:40:37 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBMMet170700; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 14:40:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <20011220171739.J26326@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011221131016.00d3dcc0@localhost> <20011221150930.A78601@prism.flugsvamp.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 22 Dec 2001 14:40:55 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011221150930.A78601@prism.flugsvamp.com> Message-ID: Lines: 146 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan Lemon writes: > No, Brett, that's not what I said. I said that the *ORIGINAL* work > by *itself* is not and cannot be tainted by the GPL. Yes, I agree with > you here that the Linux syslogd (a derivative of Allman's original > work) is tainted (by some definition of taint) by the GPL. But the > original pre-GPL work, which probably still is available in an archive > somewhere, is not GPL'd. > > Gary does not seem to understand this. I think Jonathan was correct when he said a few posts back "... any further logic would be a waste of my time". :-) And I'll take his generous offer to have the last word with him. I don't know the history of syslogd, but if a collective work is formed of a GPL'd part and anything else, then the GPL requires the entire work to be GPL'd. No? If the entire work is GPL'd each and every part of it is GPL'd. No? (At least. Parts could also be dual-licensed.) If a part of it was originally only under BSDL then the only way that part can become GPL'd is if the owner of that part GPLs it. The deriver may not change the licensing for the owner of the copyright on that part. Berne Convention, and all that stuff Jonathan was explaining to us. Again, he errs in thinking that copyrights and free software licenses pertain to copies of anything. They only apply to the work themselves and all of their parts (excepting fair use). It matters not whether one get the work or a part of the work in a full, pristine (what he calls ORIGINAL) copy or buried deep in the thirteen derivative of it under twelve different BSDL-compatible licenses. The part still belongs to the original owner and only he may say how it is licensed, but that BSDL, BSDL+GPL, or GPL. And, if a compiler is incorporating third-party GPL (and thus can't use a modified GPL), then all parts of if must be under GPL and only by the action of all owners of all parts putting their work under the GPL. And if they put a work under the GPL for the deriver, they've put it under the GPL for the public, which means that a holder of an original, pristine copy of the work now has the work under BSDL and/or GPL. Jonathan previously wrote: > On Thu, Dec 20, 2001 at 06:55:19PM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > Jonathan Lemon writes: > > > > > Suppose I write a piece of software, and release it under the BSD > > > license. It gets committed to the FreeBSD kernel. Someone else > > > tweaks it and slaps a GPL license on it. You would have all copies > > > instetaneously tainted by the GPL. > > > > This belies your claim to have understood me. You're scenario there > > is not something that may legally occur. Let's call your work "A" > > and the tweaker's work in a derivative of A, "B". You own A; nobody but > > you has the right to slap a GPL license on it. The tweaker is allowed > > by the BSDL to make a derivative of A. This is a work of authorship > > which we'll call "C". It contains A and B. The tweaker is free to > > distribte C because of the BSDL, but he may not slap a GPL on C, because > > it is not all his to license. > > Well, if I am to believe you here, then it means that you have just > proved that there is no worry about the GPL at all, since in your own > words, "he may not slap a GPL on C". > > "C" being the FreeBSD kernel of course, which, when you get down to > it, is simply a collection of works "A", which is all BSD licensed. > > Sorry, you just argued yourself into a corner here. That's only a problem when the argument needs somewhere to go. I'm comfortable with my position until someone shows me what's wrong with it other than its being unconventional or having undesirable consequences. I have not "proved that there is no worry about the GPL". I've proved that people err when they claim to apply the GPL to a work which includes non-GPL parts without getting the owner of those parts to license them under the GPL. These false claimers of GPL don't infringe on the BLSLers; the BSDL allows redistribution in a derivative. They infringe on the GPL'd work they are incorporating. If the infringer is FreeBSD, I'd worry. There's also the worry that the acquiescence to the use of the GPL will later be regarded as an implied license. Maybe the worries are negligable. Maybe we're willing to risk that nobody will care that FreeBSD licensing is infringing on them. (I don't say that it does, because I've already forgotten the relevant facts.) > Either the someone can slap a GPL on the BSD code, in which this thread > has relevancy, or they cannot, in which case the whole thing is moot. Anone can slap a GPL on anything. The fact that so many think they may do so, thus changing the licensing of someone else's work, without obtaining the permission of the non-GPL owners, is a problem. Side note: It may also be considered a problem with the GPL's language. It could be fixed and still retain most of it's copyleftist power. > > But if the derivation is done and it is distributed with your > > cooperatation and you say things like "the kernel is under the GPL", > > But we (me, greg, RMS, other posters) are _NOT_ saying that, *you* are. > It has been our position from square one, that the BSD kernel is not > under the GPL. Don't try and put your words in our camp. Jonathan, Greg, RMS, and others have said that repeatedly in the context of this discussion about a GPL-infected ["BSD"] kernel. We'd have no discussion if it wasn't said. Methinks Jonathan isn't paying attention. Firstly, here's Jonathan's words from this same thread: E.g.: kernel + (N)"options XXX" = non-GPL'd kernel. kernel + (N)"options XXX" + "options EXT2FS" = GPL'd kernel. That's what I'm discussing; a "GPL'd kernel" (Jonathan's words). Whether FreeBSD people are distributing a derivative of a GPL'd work is not at issue in the sub-thread started with the just above scenario, as far as I'm concerned. I responded (in more/other words): if you GPL the parts to satisfy the GPL in his second equation, you've caused the first to also be GPL'd. Socondly, consider the third-level quote of Jonathan above. He continues the scenario with his supposition about a GPL'd FreeBSD kernel. Thirdly, remember that almost a week ago when this whole thing started, Greg and RMS were discussing a FreeBSD kernel with GPL code in it when Greg asked about it and RMS said: If you link some GPL-covered code into the kernel, the GPL's conditions will apply to the kernel as a whole. (I snipped the part where he erroneously implied that it doesn't apply to all the parts.) We aren't discussing a GPL-free FreeBSD kernel or even whether it is free. > I believe I'll end this thread here, since you don't appear to be able > to mount a cohesive argument, and any further logic would be a waste > of my time. Feel free to have the last word. :-) I believe that it only appears that way to him. I suppose that many people are not able to make sense of my quickly composed and wordy arguments, but there is fault on both sides. I wish Jonathan had addressed my arguments in more detail. I've learned in the past from both forming my arguments and having them soundly criticized. Sometimes one can even learn from responding to criticism which is nothing but sound. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 22 14:50:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx3.uninterruptible.net (cyclonis.catonic.net [63.160.99.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0915437B405 for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 14:50:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by mx3.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5555508 for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 16:44:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-5-170.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.5.170]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E53B50024 for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 22:50:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 2F0AA3247; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 22:50:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0E1C4C2B for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 22:50:28 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 22:50:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: Subject: Quake II GPLd Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net X-Frames: I hate frames. Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum X-Disclaimer: My opinions are not those of my employer(s). X-System-Requirements: It said `Requires Linux 5.2 or better' so I installed FreeBSD! X-Too-Many-Headers: You betcha. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.shacknews.com/finger/?fid=johnc@idsoftware.com or %finger johnc@idsoftware.com | less I've a little mirror setup; http://cyclonis.catonic.net/quake2.zip ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL. ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 22 16: 9: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CC8F37B41A for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 16:08:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D89ECBDCB; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 16:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05587; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 16:08:57 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBN09Ek70709; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 16:09:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <15394.43349.782935.475024@guru.mired.org> <15394.56866.830152.580700@guru.mired.org> <18d718uuw2.718@localhost.localdomain> <15395.43708.816636.295489@guru.mired.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 22 Dec 2001 16:09:14 -0800 In-Reply-To: <15395.43708.816636.295489@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: Lines: 51 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Mike Meyer" writes: > Slight change. Let's make S originally a BSDL source, but what A gets > is a binary under their license, as allowed by the BSDL. Would you > thereby claim that C's actions places a requirement on B to provide > source to S to A if they want it? Or would B no longer be allowed to > distribute a binary built from S without that requirement? This looks very interesting. New stuff. But I need more info before spending more time on it. What is "their license" (of S to A)? Is it a standard BSDL or a private, two-party thing? I infer that S has been licensed to the public under BSDL, but not distributed. Did you mean that? Note that my quick re-read of a BSDL reveals no reason it couldn't be used in a private license, but I haven't thought through what the implications of such private license would have on source or binary. This makes me worry how I prove that the BSDL code I derive from is really under public BSDL or is just a copy of privately-BSDL'd code which I've obtained. Maybe it makes no difference. ???? As to the source-binary thing, I don't know how to explain it well, probably because I don't understand it as well as I would like. I'm quite sure that compilation and linking isn't an act of authorship sufficient to make the binary a work deserving of copyright protection apart from the sources (code and "make" files, etc). Probably the best way to look at binaries is as one kind of tangible copy of the single intangible work. 17 USC 102 (beginning): Copyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. Maybe a binary is just one kind of medium of expression of the work. Another way to approach it is as a translation. I think (human) translations are legally worthy of separate, or I should say, additional copyrights, with the translated work being copyrighted by two parties. But I doubt that this applies to either machine translation (unless the courts find the translator an extention of it's human designer) or compilation and linking. I suppose the act of linking is a kind of author-ish act which could be done without benefit of source material of the "make" kind. So, yes, I guess it's possible that a binary could be created which embodies a work which is separate from it's source code. But I'd probably argue that there is still an intangible selection of other works from which the binary copy is generated. Maybe you'd care to work that into your scenario, but I hope not; it's too weird. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 22 16:29:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DD2FE37B416 for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 16:29:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15989 invoked by uid 100); 23 Dec 2001 00:29:37 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15397.9585.514476.882122@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 18:29:37 -0600 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <15394.43349.782935.475024@guru.mired.org> <15394.56866.830152.580700@guru.mired.org> <18d718uuw2.718@localhost.localdomain> <15395.43708.816636.295489@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA v0.42/Python 2.1.1 (freebsd4) From: "Mike Meyer" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen types: > "Mike Meyer" writes: > > Slight change. Let's make S originally a BSDL source, but what A gets > > is a binary under their license, as allowed by the BSDL. Would you > > thereby claim that C's actions places a requirement on B to provide > > source to S to A if they want it? Or would B no longer be allowed to > > distribute a binary built from S without that requirement? > This looks very interesting. New stuff. But I need more info before > spending more time on it. What is "their license" (of S to A)? Is it a > standard BSDL or a private, two-party thing? I infer that S has been > licensed to the public under BSDL, but not distributed. Did you mean > that? Actually, this is the situation that people are actually worried about. S is BSDL licensed and distributed to the public as such. B takes S, and builds a commercial product based on it. They sell it to A as a binary with a standard commercial software license (i.e. - we own it, you have a license to use it, and we guarantee the media is readable and nothing more). Now C takes S, "combines" it with T which is covered by the GPL and distributes the results under the GPL. Back to the questions: Is B now required to provide source to their commercial product upon demand from A? Or are they simply no longer allowed to distribute said product other than under the terms of the GPL. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 22 16:53:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DC8F37B41B for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 16:53:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15951; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 17:53:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011222174710.00dda370@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 17:53:10 -0700 To: Nicolas Rachinsky , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop In-Reply-To: <20011221212606.GB17204@pc5.abc> References: <20011221150930.A78601@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <20011220171739.J26326@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011221131016.00d3dcc0@localhost> <20011221150930.A78601@prism.flugsvamp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:26 PM 12/21/2001, Nicolas Rachinsky wrote: >Just a question, there is an version of the BSD license which is >incompatible with the GPL, which means I can't distribute a work with >has both licenses. In the following I call this (incompatible) BSD >license BSDL. Yes. The original 4-clause BSD license was "incompatible" with (read: code written under it could not be assimilated by) the GPL. This is due to the fact that any license that imposes any restriction -- however minor -- that the GPL does not prevents assimilation by the GPL. These include clauses which are easy to honor, such as a requirement to give the author credit somewhere (not necessarily in every ad). I strongly advocate that the BSDs standardize upon a license that is "incompatible" with the GPL so as to prevent work done for the BSDs from furthering Stallman's agenda. Such a license can still be truly free, as it can allow you to do anything with the code and only restrict what you can do TO the author (e.g. try to hide the fact that he or she wrote it). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 22 17:15:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 346BF37B405 for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 17:15:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F19FBD06; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 17:15:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16071; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 17:15:15 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fBN1FWR70715; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 17:15:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Nicolas Rachinsky Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL nonsense: time to stop References: <200112182010.fBIKA9739621@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011218180720.00d6e520@localhost> <20011219091631.Q377@prism.flugsvamp.com> <0en10ey5jo.10e@localhost.localdomain> <20011219215548.D76354@prism.flugsvamp.com> <20011220171739.J26326@prism.flugsvamp.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011221131016.00d3dcc0@localhost> <20011221150930.A78601@prism.flugsvamp.com> <20011221212606.GB17204@pc5.abc> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 22 Dec 2001 17:15:32 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20011221212606.GB17204@pc5.abc> Message-ID: <4azo4au47f.o4a@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 29 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nicolas Rachinsky writes: > Just a question, there is an version of the BSD license which is > incompatible with the GPL, which means I can't distribute a work with > has both licenses. In the following I call this (incompatible) BSD > license BSDL. > > If I have an program licensed with the BSDL, I'm not the > author/copyright owner of. I have a source file which is GPL'd. If > I combine this two for example by linking them together, I create > a derivated work of both the source files. The GPL requires me to > license the whole work under the GPL, which I can't do, so every > distribution of the whole work in binary (and perhaps in source) is > illegal. > > Is this correct? What is the nature of the linking? Do you own the GPL'd work? Are the parts dependent on each other causing a "technical interpenetration"? Does the combination satisfy the GPL's "mere aggregation" escape clause? Lots of debatable stuff some of which you might never answer surely. But it is probably correct in most cases. And only a lawyer may give you legal advice, so don't consider my opinion as anything but a lay comment on an hypothetical scenario. > Are all the linux distributers violating copyright law? Why do you ask? Care to share some evidence of it? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message