From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 0:26:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from neptune.he.net (neptune.he.net [216.218.166.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3073137B406; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 00:26:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robinson@netrinsics.com) Received: from netrinsics.com ([210.52.155.98] (may be forged)) by neptune.he.net (8.8.6/8.8.2) with ESMTP id AAA04374; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 00:26:29 -0700 Received: (from robinson@localhost) by netrinsics.com (8.11.2/8.11.1) id f7C7QuG02391; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:26:56 +0800 (+0800) (envelope-from robinson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:26:55 +0800 From: Michael Robinson To: current@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: _sigprocmask in malloc.c causes full file table? Message-ID: <20010812152655.A1569@elephant.netrinsics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Julian Elischer wrote: >Malloc is not re-entrant...i.e. >you cannot use in in a signal handler.. Thank you for that very helpful bit of information, but I already knew that. What I do not know is how it is possible for a null _sigprocmask call (a SIG_BLOCK call with no mask bits set) in libc/stdlib/malloc.c to cause a kernel error, "file: table is full", in libc_r/uthread/uthread_init.c. Do you? If not, aren't you even a little bit curious? -Michael Robinson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 1: 4: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.128.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA3137B40B for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 01:03:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp) Received: from nantai.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp by nasu.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.11.2/1.1.29.3/26Jan01-1134AM) id f7C83wc225982; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:03:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp by nantai.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.11.2/1.1.29.3/30Jan01-0241PM) id f7C83wK462032; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:03:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (IDENT:6LnFdZ/xdT4KBASsbAVP9NiU5z00KZud@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.43.7]) by zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W/zodiac-May2000) with ESMTP id RAA26578; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:13:37 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> To: current@freebsd.org Cc: yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:13:36 +0900 From: Kazutaka YOKOTA Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Oh, no, another blow up while I was asleep... To be honest, as someone who has tried to maintain the keyboard and PS/2 mouse drivers in FreeBSD (and the mouse driver in XFree86) for more than 4 years, I must say I am rather disappointed. I DID write many man pages and FAQ entries for keyboard/mouse support, answered many questions in FreeBSD MLs, fixed many PRs, and helped people to solve their problems, and fixed drivers. I DID what I could! I feel shot down. As I am going away few days for business trip and must do some preparation for that today, I don't have time to discuss all the details raised in this thread. But, I think I should leave few quick notes. .... Some of you may be thinking that it is not hard to make the psm driver work in all situations. My experience tells otherwise. How many mice do you know I have here to test with? I own variety of nearly 100 mice from various vendors, famous and no-name. Many are well behaved in the sense that they are compatible with each other regarding extra features. There are some that are not compatible with the others. It is possible to make the driver "almost" always work with these mice; we treat all of them as a plain 2 button mouse. It is the greatest common measure (no 3rd button, no wheel, no advanced features). Things break when you have a KVM and another OS put the mouse in enhanced or advanced state to utilize extra buttons and wheels. And people certainly want his/her mouse's 3rd, 4th, 5th buttons and wheel work. Linux PS/2 mouse driver knows almost nothing about the mouse protocol and mouse state. (Well, it knows about the standard 2-button mouse, IntelliMouse, and Genius mouse.) It leaves all the chore to the user-land program such as the X server to do initialization and set-up of the mouse. (I believe Solaris, Net/OpenBSD and many other UN*X variants are doing the same.) A few years ago, it was decided that hardware initialization should be device driver's business and the user-land program shouldn't be bothered with it. With moused(8), psm(4), mse(4), ums(4), sysmouse(4), we can handle any mouse, PS/2, bus, serial, or usb, in the same way, via sysmouse(4) (its protocol is described in mouse(4)). This way, the user just specify /dev/sysmouse as the mouse port and "sysmouse" as the protocol in his/her XF86Config and doesn't need to experiment with various mouse protocols to find which one works with his/her mouse in X. .... I am fully aware that some of you have problems with your PS/2 mouse, particularly when used with a KVM switch. Don't say "other OSes always work". If two OSes on your KVM try to put the PS/2 mouse in different operating modes, both of them have the out-of-sync problem when you switch between the two. Both OSes work only if they use the mouse in the same mode. Linux mouse driver certainly doesn't automatically correct this situation; it doesn't even know the problem exists. If your mouse goes south in XFree86 on Linux, you need to restart the X server or switch to another vty and get back to the X session to get the mouse pointer right. This "almost" works, as the XFree86 on Linux sends initialization commands to the mouse when it is coming to foreground, but it doesn't fully reset the mouse, thus, there are cases it won't work. The equivalent technique in FreeBSD is to send HUP to moused(8). As for flags 0x8000 for the psm driver, I added it as an option in -CURRENT to test if it works for those who are seeing the "out of sync" problem. Maybe I have not advertised it enough to get responses, and we should make it default now. .... Please also remember that there are many different KVM switches in the market. You just cannot expect they work in the same way. There isn't a single standard way for the firmware of the electrical KVM switch to handle mouse packets. Some vendors claims their switch "emulates" a certain mouse, only that the emulation is not complete. .... As for "poor" documentation, don't expect authoritative hardware specification for PS/2 mice. There isn't such thing. IBM's first PS/2 mouse protocol (plain 2 button) is well known. But, other mice's protocols are not publicly available. Logitech used to send you their mouse's technical manual upon request. It seems they stopped distributing it these days. MS certainly doesn't disclose any information on their IntelliMouse series products. I did try to obtain technical information from a few other vendors too; no one was forthcoming. For the last few years, I have struggled to figure out the contents of packets sent by various mice. No, I have not published a manual or notes (other than code itself and CVS logs) to describe what I have found. I know I should do that. I simply haven't had time. Don't accuse me of being lazy. It's volunteer project! People do what s/he can do in his/her spare time! Kazu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 1:17:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9EC037B403; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 01:17:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.137.140.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.137.140]) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA05264; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 01:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B763BCE.C0D51A6C@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 01:18:22 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: Michael Robinson , current@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: _sigprocmask in malloc.c causes full file table? References: <67309.997577985@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sheldon Hearn wrote: > On Sat, 11 Aug 2001 17:49:09 MST, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > If you are an experienced technical writer, or you are a an > > English major, and can provide your bonifides > > I don't have the certifications that you think are required. I have discovered that it is out of print. However, The Open Group has made the work available on the web in HTML form, free of charge; to view it, you mist register and agree to their terms of access: http://www.opengroup.org/online-pubs?DOC=007908799&FORM=HTML One of the terms may be problematic; on the other hand, the FreeBSD Foundation may be able to request and successfully otain permission; here is the problematic term: | You are permitted to read the HTML and PDF versions of Open | Group publications using your HTML browser/Acrobat software | and to download them for your own personal use provided you | have given your name and email address for each publication | requested. However, you are NOT permitted to amend, copy, | reprint, offer for sale, or otherwise re-use material from these | documents without explicit permission from The Open Group. The print document that I have in hand (literally, in lap) would certainly allow what I have suggested under Fair Use doctorine. I will look for a source of copies of the printed version (Amazon appears to not have any, used or otherwise, nor does Computer Literacy [Fat Brain], whis=ch is where I picked my copy up). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 1:23:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.dk (fw-rl0.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D17F37B403 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 01:23:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sos@freebsd.dk) Received: (from sos@localhost) by freebsd.dk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f7C8Ni097169; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:23:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sos) From: Søren Schmidt Message-Id: <200108120823.f7C8Ni097169@freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach In-Reply-To: <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> "from Kazutaka YOKOTA at Aug 12, 2001 05:13:36 pm" To: Kazutaka YOKOTA Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:23:44 +0200 (CEST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: sos@freebsd.dk X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL88 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It seems Kazutaka YOKOTA wrote: > Oh, no, another blow up while I was asleep... > > To be honest, as someone who has tried to maintain the keyboard and > PS/2 mouse drivers in FreeBSD (and the mouse driver in XFree86) for > more than 4 years, I must say I am rather disappointed. > > I DID write many man pages and FAQ entries for keyboard/mouse support, > answered many questions in FreeBSD MLs, fixed many PRs, and helped > people to solve their problems, and fixed drivers. I DID what I could! > > I feel shot down. You shouldn't, I think you have done a wonderfull job ! > For the last few years, I have struggled to figure out the contents of > packets sent by various mice. No, I have not published a manual or > notes (other than code itself and CVS logs) to describe what I have > found. I know I should do that. I simply haven't had time. Don't > accuse me of being lazy. It's volunteer project! People do what s/he > can do in his/her spare time! Exactly, I know the feeling, I could use a 40 hour week just for keeping up with the ATA sutff, but getting that much time, AND having a day job that pay the bills is simply not possible. If I could have a free wish, it would be for all those that complain and use our sparse time with these endless discussions to develop the needed skills and just get on with fixing the problems themselves, *then* get back here with the solution. This is how this system is/was built guys.... -Søren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 1:49:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A8037B405 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 01:49:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.137.140.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.137.140]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA16736; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 01:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B764317.4334A0F6@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 01:49:27 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: Richard Tobin , Kazutaka YOKOTA , Sean Kelly , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach References: <200108112351.AAA26897@banks.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <200108120422.f7C4MY150223@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > > : > In addition, the PS/2 mouse driver is smart enough to bitch > : > about synchronization, but too stupid to resynchronize (reset) > : > when it happens. Duh. > > Ummm, what does adding flags 0x8000 buy you? I think that fixed it > for me on the machines that I was seeing it. > > Except for the machines I'd see it after suspend/resume, then flags > 0x4000 worked. 0x4000 is PSM_CONFIG_INITAFTERSUSPEND Under what circumstances would you _not_ want to call the function "reinitialize()" on the unit at resume time, such that this flag is not default? Even assuming it causes problems on some hardware (it appears to be _required_ to handle undocking from a docking station with an external mouse!), shouldn't this flag be inverted, instead? I.e.: on by default, with the ability to force it off if it caused trouble? 0x8000 is PSM_CONFIG_SYNCHACK If the mouse it "out of sync", the packet decode in psmintr() bitches about it -- but does nothing useful. This flag makes it bitch about doing a disable_aux_device()/enable_aux_device(), but actually _does_ something about fixing the problem. The only place the syncmask[0] or syncmask[1] appear to be set are in the psmprobe, psminit, and reinitialize code. This means that once it's out of sync, this is the _ONLY_ way it can be recovered, short of closing and reopening the device ("restart your X session and your 40 windows in your testbed, please, I refuse to at least _try_ to reset syncmask[0] and syncmask[1] for you"). Shouldn't this flag _also_ be enabled by default, with the ability to override as well? I think overriding in this case makes no sense: the worst thing that can happen is that your non-functional mouse continues to be non-functional following the calls to do the disable_aux_device()/enable_aux_device(). --- I'm pretty sure this won't fix the keyboard problems, but it might fix the mouse problems. I'm pretty sure FreeBSD would have to be a whole lot less agressive for the very useful "OmniView CAT6 KVM Extender" to work (luckily, FreeBSD doesn't probe the VGA port, so at least the monitor works, if not the keyboard/mouse 8-)): -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 1:56:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mass.dis.org (mass.dis.org [216.240.45.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10DEB37B40B for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 01:56:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Received: from mass.dis.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.dis.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7C903b82687; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 02:00:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Message-Id: <200108120900.f7C903b82687@mass.dis.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Warner Losh , Richard Tobin , Kazutaka YOKOTA , Sean Kelly , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Aug 2001 01:49:27 PDT." <3B764317.4334A0F6@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 02:00:03 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'm pretty sure FreeBSD would have to be a whole lot less > agressive for the very useful "OmniView CAT6 KVM Extender" > to work (luckily, FreeBSD doesn't probe the VGA port, so > at least the monitor works, if not the keyboard/mouse 8-)): XFree86, OTOH, does. 8) What are the chances your Belkin junk fakes DDC properly? -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 2:28:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08BA937B407; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 02:28:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.137.140.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.137.140]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA04813; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 02:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B764C48.E7538995@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 02:28:40 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith Cc: Warner Losh , Richard Tobin , Kazutaka YOKOTA , Sean Kelly , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach References: <200108120900.f7C903b82687@mass.dis.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > > > I'm pretty sure FreeBSD would have to be a whole lot less > > agressive for the very useful "OmniView CAT6 KVM Extender" > > to work (luckily, FreeBSD doesn't probe the VGA port, so > > at least the monitor works, if not the keyboard/mouse 8-)): > > XFree86, OTOH, does. 8) > > What are the chances your Belkin junk fakes DDC properly? About the same chances that Cybex pays you $5 for every time you call Belkin "junk" in a public forum. DDC is supposed to not cause problems if connecting to non-DDC enabled devices. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 2:33: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp012.mail.yahoo.com (smtp012.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 326EF37B408 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 02:32:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 2001 09:32:58 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B764D47.6060902@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 04:32:55 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Jason Vervlied , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? References: <3B74D180.D036D629@hway.net> <3B75D33D.68368F22@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG IMHO, all widely accepted shells should be put in /bin If not /bin, then somewhere on the ROOT partition. Maybe a new root-partition bin directory.. I submit /lbin for the sake of discussion. /bin for basic user binaries, /sbin for system daemons and system binaries, /lbin for "local" binaries. -static should be a prerequisite. Sun has recently adopted this strategy and put all third party shells in /bin [symlink->/usr/bin], and it makes perfect sense, now if they can get rid of the old SysV crap of /sbin/sh being REQUIRED to be root's shell under Solaris... FreeBSD should go in this direction as well. This allows administrators to be able to get the shell of their choice WITHOUT having to mount additional partitions in a single-user-mode scenario, which in a lot of cases is being used to fix some kind of inconsistancy with the system, all the more reason to do so in -current. An administrator should have easy access to the basic tools he needs to get the system running, and all on the root partition. If some admins prefer csh, some tcsh, some ksh, some bash, there are even maschists that prefer just plain sh, then let them have it by default... Shells are basic tools, and any given admin will be more proficient in one than the other. I like tcsh, Jason likes bash, my buddy at work knows ksh... I personally abhor bash, but Jason has a good point. Jus' my two cents... Wes Peters wrote: > Jason Vervlied wrote: > >>Is there a reason why the bash shell is kept in /usr/local/bin. >> > > Because bash is not 'part of FreeBSD', it is an add-on. > > >>I would >>personally prefer to use it for my root shell, but if I remember right, >>root needs to have something that is in /bin (I could be wrong). If I do >>need a shell located in /bin for root would it break anything if I moved >>bash from /usr/local/bin to /bin (yes I know I woudl have to update >>/etc/shells)? >> > > Yes, unless you compile bash as a static executable. I just add a > rootb account that has bash as its shell and use that for day-to-day > work, keeping the root account as shipped by the vendor on every > system. This has the advantage of giving me a root account with a > consistent shell on any system type, without screwing up the vendor > root account. jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 3: 4:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 332A837B408 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 03:04:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.137.140.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.137.140]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA27385; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 03:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B76549C.17D409A1@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 03:04:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kazutaka YOKOTA Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach References: <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kazutaka YOKOTA wrote: > Oh, no, another blow up while I was asleep... > > To be honest, as someone who has tried to maintain the keyboard and > PS/2 mouse drivers in FreeBSD (and the mouse driver in XFree86) for > more than 4 years, I must say I am rather disappointed. > > I DID write many man pages and FAQ entries for keyboard/mouse support, > answered many questions in FreeBSD MLs, fixed many PRs, and helped > people to solve their problems, and fixed drivers. I DID what I could! > > I feel shot down. Don't. The problem is that someone was finding their KVM switch not working, and it seems to be related to the probing done by FreeBSD, above and beyond the probing the BIOS does when it makes the keyboard LEDs flash at POST time. > It is possible to make the driver "almost" always work with these > mice; we treat all of them as a plain 2 button mouse. It is the > greatest common measure (no 3rd button, no wheel, no advanced > features). Things break when you have a KVM and another OS put the > mouse in enhanced or advanced state to utilize extra buttons and > wheels. And people certainly want his/her mouse's 3rd, 4th, 5th > buttons and wheel work. Yes, this is well known. The Windows "knowledge base" has an article telling how to disable probing for the Intellimouse wheel, when using certain versions of the Cybex KVMs, for example. It's probably acceptable to have a table of mice for something like this, and make the user pick one to get more than the documented standard buttons. > As for flags 0x8000 for the psm driver, I added it as an option in > -CURRENT to test if it works for those who are seeing the "out of > sync" problem. Maybe I have not advertised it enough to get responses, > and we should make it default now. Yes; as I said before, it can't make the situation any worse, to poke a dead mouse: the worst thing that can happen is you end up with a dead mouse, which is what you had before. > Please also remember that there are many different KVM switches in the > market. You just cannot expect they work in the same way. There > isn't a single standard way for the firmware of the electrical KVM > switch to handle mouse packets. Some vendors claims their switch > "emulates" a certain mouse, only that the emulation is not complete. Going for the absolute minimum documented PS/2 interface by default seems safe. The difference in mouse modes seems to be just a matter of "dumbing down" the defaults for all OSs (correct me if this is wrong). In the Belkin KVM case, there is a firmware fix for FreeBSD, just like in the Cybex, there is a firmware fix for the wheel probe from Windows. > protocols are not publicly available. Logitech used to send you their > mouse's technical manual upon request. It seems they stopped > distributing it these days. MS certainly doesn't disclose any > information on their IntelliMouse series products. I did try to > obtain technical information from a few other vendors too; no one was > forthcoming. You are aware of: http://panda.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu/~achapwes/PICmicro/Links.html ...particularly, the Holtek link, which has chip specifications for many PS/2 mouse parts, which disclose the protocols, including the Microsoft 5 button (Intellimouse) mouse, right? > For the last few years, I have struggled to figure out the contents of > packets sent by various mice. No, I have not published a manual or > notes (other than code itself and CVS logs) to describe what I have > found. I know I should do that. I simply haven't had time. Don't > accuse me of being lazy. It's volunteer project! People do what s/he > can do in his/her spare time! Your efforts are appreciated! This whole discussion started around the keyboard probe, and was sidetracked off into mouse-land; sorry if it seemed directed at your work! -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 3: 7: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A507937B408 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 03:06:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.137.140.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.137.140]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA00418; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 03:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B76555B.891321BF@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 03:07:23 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com Cc: Wes Peters , Jason Vervlied , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? References: <3B74D180.D036D629@hway.net> <3B75D33D.68368F22@softweyr.com> <3B764D47.6060902@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jim Bryant wrote: > > IMHO, all widely accepted shells should be put in /bin Bash has a license which precludes its inclusion as part of the base system. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 3:21:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp012.mail.yahoo.com (smtp012.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0E47637B406 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 03:21:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 2001 10:21:45 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B7658B8.7070602@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 05:21:44 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Wes Peters , Jason Vervlied , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? References: <3B74D180.D036D629@hway.net> <3B75D33D.68368F22@softweyr.com> <3B764D47.6060902@yahoo.com> <3B76555B.891321BF@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Maybe one of the BASH nuts can write a BASH clone... maybe name it BABASH [Born-Again Bourne-Again SHell] under a BSD license... At lease Xi[howeveritsspelled] is using a BSD-style license for the OGG/Vorbis project. Word is getting out that the BSD license is superior to GPL for truly open-source projects. Terry Lambert wrote: > Jim Bryant wrote: > >>IMHO, all widely accepted shells should be put in /bin >> > > Bash has a license which precludes its inclusion as part > of the base system. > > -- Terry jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 3:22:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from ns.plaut.de (ns.plaut.de [194.99.75.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BADBE37B409; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 03:22:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@nihil.plaut.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by ns.plaut.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id MAA14570; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:22:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root@nihil.plaut.de) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by nihil.plaut.de (8.11.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id f7CCM1e03039; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:22:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root@nihil) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:22:00 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Reifenberger To: FreeBSD-Current , Subject: Anyone working on missing sysv* ipc functionality Message-ID: <20010812140820.P2574-100000@nihil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, at least the linux emulation is missing some ipc functionality: [SEM|SHM]_INFO [SEM|SHM]_STAT. The *_INFO case is not that difficult and implemented by me for SEM_INFO. To implement the *_STAT case this leads to extending the native sysv_* functions to accept indices to the *_ds structures (IX instead of IPCID for the semid/shmid/... in the __[sem|shm]ctl call) This could also eliminate the kvm digging in ipcs.c Is anyone working on this? Bye! ---- Michael Reifenberger ^.*Plaut.*$, IT, R/3 Basis, GPS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 4:53:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from hcshh.hcs.de (hcshh.hcs.de [194.123.40.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 861FB37B409 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 04:53:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hm@hcs.de) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hcshh.hcs.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C15FBA03; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:53:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hcswork.hcs.de (hcswork.hcs.de [172.24.124.5]) by hcshh.hcs.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E62F0BA02; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:53:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: by hcswork.hcs.de (Postfix, from userid 200) id B6CB4529; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:53:25 +0200 (METDST) Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach In-Reply-To: <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> "from Kazutaka YOKOTA at Aug 12, 2001 05:13:36 pm" To: Kazutaka YOKOTA Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:53:25 +0200 (METDST) Cc: current@freebsd.org Reply-To: hm@hcs.de Organization: HCS Hanseatischer Computerservice GmbH X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL84 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Message-Id: <20010812115325.B6CB4529@hcswork.hcs.de> From: hm@hcs.de (Hellmuth Michaelis) X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From=20the keyboard of Kazutaka YOKOTA: > I feel shot down. Don=B4t ! From=20my pcvt times i have still 25 or so keyboards left and i still remember that this number was not sufficient enough to get all the bugs out of the pcvt lowlevel keyboard stuff. It was a nightmare. I=B4m glad you took over this task since it is Sysiphus type of work. Since pcvt=B4s low level keyboard handler was replaced with yours, i see much less problems than before. Thank you very much! And anyone shooting at your keyboard driver can only be asked to provide patches or be quiet IMHO. hellmuth --=20 Hellmuth Michaelis Tel +49 40 55 97 47= -70 HCS Hanseatischer Computerservice GmbH Fax +49 40 55 97 47= -77 Oldesloer Strasse 97-99 Mail hm [at] hcs.de D-22457 Hamburg WWW http://www.hcs.= de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 4:53:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from axl.seasidesoftware.co.za (axl.seasidesoftware.co.za [196.31.7.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E76937B40A for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 04:53:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@starjuice.net) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.seasidesoftware.co.za) by axl.seasidesoftware.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.31 #1) id 15Vtot-000IgX-00; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:54:15 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Wes Peters , Jason Vervlied , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Aug 2001 05:21:44 EST." <3B7658B8.7070602@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:54:15 +0200 Message-ID: <71828.997617255@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 12 Aug 2001 05:21:44 EST, Jim Bryant wrote: > Maybe one of the BASH nuts can write a BASH clone... maybe name it > BABASH [Born-Again Bourne-Again SHell] under a BSD license... Oh move on already. How long does it take you to copy bash into /bin? Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 5:24:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp015.mail.yahoo.com (smtp015.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8D19137B405 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 05:24:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 2001 12:24:16 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B76756F.9020809@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 07:24:15 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Wes Peters , Jason Vervlied , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? References: <71828.997617255@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG heh.. i know, but still... as for me, i'd mv `/usr/local/bin/bash /dev/null`, but he did make a good point, and the fact that the big vendors are moving in the direction he suggests [I belive Sun *IS* distributing BASH in /bin under Solaris 8, as I recall] does reinforce this idea. anyhow, moving onward... Sheldon Hearn wrote: > On Sun, 12 Aug 2001 05:21:44 EST, Jim Bryant wrote: > > >>Maybe one of the BASH nuts can write a BASH clone... maybe name it >>BABASH [Born-Again Bourne-Again SHell] under a BSD license... >> > > Oh move on already. How long does it take you to copy bash into /bin? > > Ciao, > Sheldon. jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 5:53:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C56F37B403; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 05:53:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id IAA16653; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 08:52:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 08:52:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen To: Michael Robinson Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: _sigprocmask in malloc.c causes full file table? In-Reply-To: <20010812152655.A1569@elephant.netrinsics.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Michael Robinson wrote: > Julian Elischer wrote: > >Malloc is not re-entrant...i.e. > >you cannot use in in a signal handler.. > > Thank you for that very helpful bit of information, but I already knew that. > > What I do not know is how it is possible for a null _sigprocmask call > (a SIG_BLOCK call with no mask bits set) in libc/stdlib/malloc.c to cause a > kernel error, "file: table is full", in libc_r/uthread/uthread_init.c. This is the first time that I saw libc_r was involved. Actually, POSIX (1003.1, 1996) says this about sigprocmask: "The use of the sigprocmask() function is unspecified in a multithreaded process." FreeBSD behaviour of sigprocmask() is the same as Solaris. sigprocmask() changes the mask of the calling thread, not the process. In other words, it is identical to pthread_sigmask(). If it is being used to block signals for threads other than the calling thread, it won't work. -- Dan Eischen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 6: 7:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4883037B406; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 06:07:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id JAA18732; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 09:06:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 09:06:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen To: Michael Robinson Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: _sigprocmask in malloc.c causes full file table? In-Reply-To: <20010812152655.A1569@elephant.netrinsics.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Michael Robinson wrote: > Julian Elischer wrote: > >Malloc is not re-entrant...i.e. > >you cannot use in in a signal handler.. > > Thank you for that very helpful bit of information, but I already knew that. > > What I do not know is how it is possible for a null _sigprocmask call > (a SIG_BLOCK call with no mask bits set) in libc/stdlib/malloc.c to cause a Sorry, I missed this the first time... Where is there a _sigprocmask() call in libc/stdlib/malloc.c? I don't find one. -- Dan Eischen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 6:16:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CB1B37B401; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 06:16:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id JAA19739; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 09:15:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 09:15:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen To: Michael Robinson , current@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: _sigprocmask in malloc.c causes full file table? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Daniel Eischen wrote: > On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Michael Robinson wrote: > > Julian Elischer wrote: > > >Malloc is not re-entrant...i.e. > > >you cannot use in in a signal handler.. > > > > Thank you for that very helpful bit of information, but I already knew that. > > > > What I do not know is how it is possible for a null _sigprocmask call > > (a SIG_BLOCK call with no mask bits set) in libc/stdlib/malloc.c to cause a > > Sorry, I missed this the first time... Where is there a _sigprocmask() > call in libc/stdlib/malloc.c? I don't find one. Ignore this. I found the first posting. -- Dan Eischen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 6:46: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from neptune.he.net (neptune.he.net [216.218.166.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5085D37B406; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 06:45:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robinson@netrinsics.com) Received: from netrinsics.com ([210.52.155.75] (may be forged)) by neptune.he.net (8.8.6/8.8.2) with ESMTP id GAA20181; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 06:45:55 -0700 Received: (from robinson@localhost) by netrinsics.com (8.11.2/8.11.1) id f7CDk8602811; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:46:08 +0800 (+0800) (envelope-from robinson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:46:08 +0800 From: Michael Robinson To: Daniel Eischen Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: _sigprocmask in malloc.c causes full file table? Message-ID: <20010812214608.A2701@elephant.netrinsics.com> References: <20010812152655.A1569@elephant.netrinsics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from eischen@vigrid.com on Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 08:52:20AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doesn't *anybody* RTFPR? This is the fifth respondent in a row to have comprehensively missed the point. On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 08:52:20AM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote: > On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Michael Robinson wrote: > > Thank you for that very helpful bit of information, but I already knew that. > > > > What I do not know is how it is possible for a null _sigprocmask call > > (a SIG_BLOCK call with no mask bits set) in libc/stdlib/malloc.c to cause a > > kernel error, "file: table is full", in libc_r/uthread/uthread_init.c. > > This is the first time that I saw libc_r was involved. Actually, POSIX > (1003.1, 1996) says this about sigprocmask: > > "The use of the sigprocmask() function is unspecified in a > multithreaded process." > > FreeBSD behaviour of sigprocmask() is the same as Solaris. sigprocmask() > changes the mask of the calling thread, not the process. In other words, > it is identical to pthread_sigmask(). > > If it is being used to block signals for threads other than the calling > thread, it won't work. Allow me to quote: "a null _sigprocmask call (a SIG_BLOCK call with no mask bits set)" We can demonstrate that this is documented to have the same effect on all threads. I.e., none whatsoever. The point is that not only does this putative no-op have an op, the op is in fact an entirely unrelated error in an entirely unrelated location: pipe creation fails with a system "file: table is full" error. I'm not a famous FreeBSD kernel hacker, but if I were, I might want to ascertain that this was not due to a previously hidden pathological code path. For convenience, I am including the original report below in its entirety. -Michael P.S. I'll gladly provide diff's for anyone who may want to try to reproduce this. It's 100% trivially reproducible on my system (-CURRENT as of Jan. 31). --- I'm currently trying to deal with the problem where malloc/free in a signal handler will crash (in my case, the X window server) if a signal arrives during malloc or free. Following the example of, e.g., stdlib/system.c, I tried blocking the usual suspects (SIGIO, SIGWINCH, etc.), as follows: void free(void *ptr) { sigset_t old_procmask; THREAD_LOCK(); _sigprocmask(SIG_BLOCK, &malloc_procmask, &old_procmask); malloc_func = " in free():"; if (malloc_active++) { wrtwarning("recursive call.\n"); } else { ifree(ptr); UTRACE(ptr, 0, 0); } malloc_active--; _sigprocmask(SIG_SETMASK, &old_procmask, NULL); THREAD_UNLOCK(); return; } That worked for the general case, but it broke mozilla in an interesting way; mozilla would fail to create a kernel pipe in uthread_init.c, and I would get a system error: Aug 11 07:33:25 elephant /boot/kernel/kernel: file: table is full Aug 11 07:33:25 elephant /boot/kernel/kernel: pid 358 (mozilla-bin), uid 1000 : exited on signal 6 (core dumped) I then changed the initialization of malloc_procmask so that it contained no signals whatsoever, and the exact same thing happened. I then commented out all calls to sigprocmask, and everything returned to normal. Am I doing something completely boneheaded, or is this an undocumented subtle interaction? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 6:53:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from bremen.shuttle.de (bremen.shuttle.de [194.95.249.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9247F37B405 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 06:53:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from schweikh@schweikhardt.net) Received: by bremen.shuttle.de (Postfix, from userid 10) id C929217D59; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:53:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from schweikh@localhost) by hal9000.schweikhardt.net (8.11.5/8.11.3) id f7CArTd05275; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:53:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from schweikh) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:53:29 +0200 From: Jens Schweikhardt To: Terry Lambert Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? Message-ID: <20010812125329.A1111@schweikhardt.net> References: <3B74D180.D036D629@hway.net> <3B75D33D.68368F22@softweyr.com> <3B764D47.6060902@yahoo.com> <3B76555B.891321BF@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B76555B.891321BF@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 03:07:23AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 03:07:23AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: # Jim Bryant wrote: # > # > IMHO, all widely accepted shells should be put in /bin # # Bash has a license which precludes its inclusion as part # of the base system. [Not that I favor more shells on the root file system, but anyway:] What about gcc and grep? Does the license differ or are these not regarded being part of the base system? If we ever put another shell besides /bin/sh on the root file system (and I doubt it very much) there's always zsh with as far as I can tell a two clause BSD license. With almost all bash features and then some :-) Regards, Jens -- Jens Schweikhardt http://www.schweikhardt.net/ SIGSIG -- signature too long (core dumped) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 7:30:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6807F37B403; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 07:30:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id KAA27694; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:29:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:29:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen To: Michael Robinson Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: _sigprocmask in malloc.c causes full file table? In-Reply-To: <20010812214608.A2701@elephant.netrinsics.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Michael Robinson wrote: > Doesn't *anybody* RTFPR? This is the fifth respondent in a row to have > comprehensively missed the point. > > On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 08:52:20AM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote: > > On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Michael Robinson wrote: > > > Thank you for that very helpful bit of information, but I already knew that. > > > > > > What I do not know is how it is possible for a null _sigprocmask call > > > (a SIG_BLOCK call with no mask bits set) in libc/stdlib/malloc.c to cause a > > > kernel error, "file: table is full", in libc_r/uthread/uthread_init.c. > > > > This is the first time that I saw libc_r was involved. Actually, POSIX > > (1003.1, 1996) says this about sigprocmask: > > > > "The use of the sigprocmask() function is unspecified in a > > multithreaded process." > > > > FreeBSD behaviour of sigprocmask() is the same as Solaris. sigprocmask() > > changes the mask of the calling thread, not the process. In other words, > > it is identical to pthread_sigmask(). > > > > If it is being used to block signals for threads other than the calling > > thread, it won't work. > > Allow me to quote: > > "a null _sigprocmask call (a SIG_BLOCK call with no mask bits set)" > > We can demonstrate that this is documented to have the same effect on all > threads. I.e., none whatsoever. > > The point is that not only does this putative no-op have an op, the op is > in fact an entirely unrelated error in an entirely unrelated location: > pipe creation fails with a system "file: table is full" error. sigprocmask() behaves the same as pthread_sigmask(). pthread_sigmask() needs to obtain the current thread. In obtaining the current thread, the threads library must be initialized. In initializing the threads library malloc() is called. Wash, rinse, repeat. Don't put _sigprocmask() in malloc. -- Dan Eischen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 8:27:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.newgold.net (aphex.newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9C2FB37B405 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 08:27:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@mail.newgold.net) Received: (qmail 73329 invoked by uid 1000); 12 Aug 2001 15:27:09 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:27:09 +0000 From: Joseph Mallett To: Jim Bryant Cc: Wes Peters , Jason Vervlied , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? Message-ID: <20010812152709.A73284@NewGold.NET> References: <3B74D180.D036D629@hway.net> <3B75D33D.68368F22@softweyr.com> <3B764D47.6060902@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3B764D47.6060902@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.19i Organisation: New Gold Technology Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG If these admins can't figure out cp `which bash` /bin and then how to add it to etc/shells and chsh root, then I really question if they should be the kind of people that dictate the future of FreeBSD. 0n Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 04:32:55AM -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: > IMHO, all widely accepted shells should be put in /bin > > If not /bin, then somewhere on the ROOT partition. Maybe a new > root-partition bin directory.. I submit /lbin for the sake of discussion. > /bin for basic user binaries, /sbin for system daemons and system binaries, > /lbin for "local" binaries. > > -static should be a prerequisite. > > Sun has recently adopted this strategy and put all third party shells in > /bin [symlink->/usr/bin], and it makes perfect sense, now if they can get > rid of the old SysV crap of /sbin/sh being REQUIRED to be root's shell under > Solaris... > > FreeBSD should go in this direction as well. This allows administrators to > be able to get the shell of their choice WITHOUT having to mount additional > partitions in a single-user-mode scenario, which in a lot of cases is being > used to fix some kind of inconsistancy with the system, all the more reason > to do so in -current. > > An administrator should have easy access to the basic tools he needs to get > the system running, and all on the root partition. If some admins prefer > csh, some tcsh, some ksh, some bash, there are even maschists that prefer > just plain sh, then let them have it by default... Shells are basic tools, > and any given admin will be more proficient in one than the other. I like > tcsh, Jason likes bash, my buddy at work knows ksh... > > I personally abhor bash, but Jason has a good point. > > Jus' my two cents... > > Wes Peters wrote: > > >Jason Vervlied wrote: > > > >>Is there a reason why the bash shell is kept in /usr/local/bin. > >> > > > >Because bash is not 'part of FreeBSD', it is an add-on. > > > > > >>I would > >>personally prefer to use it for my root shell, but if I remember right, > >>root needs to have something that is in /bin (I could be wrong). If I do > >>need a shell located in /bin for root would it break anything if I moved > >>bash from /usr/local/bin to /bin (yes I know I woudl have to update > >>/etc/shells)? > >> > > > >Yes, unless you compile bash as a static executable. I just add a > >rootb account that has bash as its shell and use that for day-to-day > >work, keeping the root account as shipped by the vendor on every > >system. This has the advantage of giving me a root account with a > >consistent shell on any system type, without screwing up the vendor > >root account. > > jim > -- > ET has one helluva sense of humor! > He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message -- -- Joseph A. Mallett http://srcsys.org xMach Core Team, www.xMach.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 8:58:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0F3DC37B42B; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 08:58:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwmalone@maths.tcd.ie) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 16:58:29 +0100 From: David Malone To: Daniel Eischen Cc: Michael Robinson , hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: _sigprocmask in malloc.c causes full file table? Message-ID: <20010812165829.A16568@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> References: <20010812214608.A2701@elephant.netrinsics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from eischen@vigrid.com on Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 10:29:53AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 10:29:53AM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote: > sigprocmask() behaves the same as pthread_sigmask(). pthread_sigmask() > needs to obtain the current thread. In obtaining the current thread, > the threads library must be initialized. In initializing the threads > library malloc() is called. Wash, rinse, repeat. Could this be the source of Mike's original problem with X? Maybe something that X is calling from a signal handler is resulting in the initialising of the threads library and then ends up calling malloc? David. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 9: 2:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3964437B407 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 09:02:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7CG2gq00806; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:02:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7CG2bW01274; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:02:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200108121602.f7CG2bW01274@harmony.village.org> To: Joe Kelsey Subject: Re: Mouse flags? Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:35:30 PDT." <15222.5538.796294.673437@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> References: <15222.5538.796294.673437@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:02:37 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <15222.5538.796294.673437@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Joe Kelsey writes: : Where is the evidence that any errors have ever occurred on the ps2 : port? What sort of errors should one expect to occur? Surely not : parity errors. The only possible errors are if you use a mechanical : switch (such as Mike Smith) and you flip the switch in the middle of a : mouse operation. . Therefore, I would expect Mike Smith to experience a : multitude of errors, whereas those of us using electronic KVM switches : should never experinece a single error. When the mouse is switched in and out, I've seen extra or missing bytes in the data stream. I've seen this even on a mouse that wasn't moving at all. I've long suspected, but haven't dived deep enough in the code to verify, that mice initialize to one packet format, and the driver puts it into a different format as part of its initialization. That disconnect is why the mouse never works if you do the mechanical switch route, since it disconnects power as part of the switch process. So just ripping out the error detection/correction code won't help much at all. Like I said above, this is specualtion. I found the psm driver a little hard to penetrate, so I never followed up on this at all. It was the only theory I ever came up with that explained things. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 9:14:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C97AC37B40E for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 09:14:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7CGE4q00840; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:14:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7CGE3W01341; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:14:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200108121614.f7CGE3W01341@harmony.village.org> To: Kazutaka YOKOTA Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:13:36 +0900." <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> References: <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:14:03 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Kazutaka YOKOTA writes: : For the last few years, I have struggled to figure out the contents of : packets sent by various mice. No, I have not published a manual or : notes (other than code itself and CVS logs) to describe what I have : found. I know I should do that. I simply haven't had time. Don't : accuse me of being lazy. It's volunteer project! People do what s/he : can do in his/her spare time! Yokota-san, I've had 2 mice that haven't worked with FreeBSD since you started doing the mice support. Both of them were defective mice (took them back to the store and exchanged them for an identical mouse that worked). Every weird, oddball mouce that I've ever tried on many different machines have just worked. In those cases where there were problems, you've been extremely helpful in getting me enough information to fix the problem (usually it boiled down to a configuration issue). I've thought of many kind words to describe your efforts, and "lazy" has never been one of them. I think that it is summer and people like to complain more than in the winter. It happens every year and is hard to not take personally. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 9:16:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E906037B403; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 09:16:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12409; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:16:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16267; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:16:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15222.44015.177885.83834@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:16:47 -0600 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Mike Smith , Matt Dillon , Kazutaka YOKOTA , Sean Kelly , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach In-Reply-To: <3B75C7B1.FF2E739E@mindspring.com> References: <200108112135.f7BLZEb01968@mass.dis.org> <3B75C7B1.FF2E739E@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > :Finally, most keyboard/mouse/monitor switches don't work with > > > :FreeBSD; > > > > This is actually not true. I'd doubt that you've even tried many of them. > > Boy, you are on one about me... > > I have tried 5 switches. At ClickArray, we have a large number > of Belkin Omniview switches. I have one with firmware version > 1.9 at my desk, and freqiently use one with firmware version 1.6 > in our lab, with the results I have described. Strange, as the group at Nokia is running quite a lot of them (Belkin OmniView and OmniCube) without any problems. I'm guessing it's operator error. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 9:27:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0A8A37B407 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 09:27:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7CGRoq00879; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:27:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7CGRnW01423; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:27:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200108121627.f7CGRnW01423@harmony.village.org> To: sos@freebsd.dk Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:23:44 +0200." <200108120823.f7C8Ni097169@freebsd.dk> References: <200108120823.f7C8Ni097169@freebsd.dk> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:27:49 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200108120823.f7C8Ni097169@freebsd.dk> S ren Schmidt writes: : Exactly, I know the feeling, I could use a 40 hour week just for keeping : up with the ATA sutff, but getting that much time, AND having a day job : that pay the bills is simply not possible. Yes. pccard and cardbus issues could easily take 40 hours a week at times, and at least 10 hours a week all the time. I've been lucky the last few months to have a someone pay for some of the time I put into pccard, but that has been the exception rather than the rule. : If I could have a free wish, it would be for all those that complain : and use our sparse time with these endless discussions to develop the : needed skills and just get on with fixing the problems themselves, : *then* get back here with the solution. : : This is how this system is/was built guys.... I think it is possible to penetrate code that is hard to understand. It just takes a lot of time. It is easier to just complain. I know it took me a long time to grok OLDCARD... Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 9:29:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8404637B407 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 09:29:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7CGTUq00888; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:29:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7CGTTW01442; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:29:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200108121629.f7CGTTW01442@harmony.village.org> To: hm@hcs.de Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:53:25 +0200." <20010812115325.B6CB4529@hcswork.hcs.de> References: <20010812115325.B6CB4529@hcswork.hcs.de> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:29:29 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20010812115325.B6CB4529@hcswork.hcs.de> Hellmuth Michaelis writes: : From my pcvt times i have still 25 or so keyboards left and i still : remember that this number was not sufficient enough to get all the : bugs out of the pcvt lowlevel keyboard stuff. It was a nightmare. I have 5 or 6 laptops, 5 pci cardbus/pccard bridge cards, 10 ISA bridge cards, and 80 [sic] pccard/cardbus cards. And it still isn't enough. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 9:55:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBEE737B403; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 09:55:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from elischer.org (InterJet.elischer.org [192.168.1.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA97367; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 09:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B76B032.1491F636@elischer.org> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 09:34:58 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Reifenberger Cc: FreeBSD-Current , freebsd-emulation@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anyone working on missing sysv* ipc functionality References: <20010812140820.P2574-100000@nihil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Michael Reifenberger wrote: > > Hi, > at least the linux emulation is missing some ipc functionality: > [SEM|SHM]_INFO [SEM|SHM]_STAT. > The *_INFO case is not that difficult and implemented by me for SEM_INFO. > To implement the *_STAT case this leads to extending > the native sysv_* functions to accept indices to the *_ds structures > (IX instead of IPCID for the semid/shmid/... in the __[sem|shm]ctl call) > This could also eliminate the kvm digging in ipcs.c > Is anyone working on this? > > Bye! my guess is that you are.... :) > ---- > Michael Reifenberger > ^.*Plaut.*$, IT, R/3 Basis, GPS > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message -- +------------------------------------+ ______ _ __ | __--_|\ Julian Elischer | \ U \/ / hard at work in | / \ julian@elischer.org +------>x USA \ a very strange | ( OZ ) \___ ___ | country ! +- X_.---._/ presently in San Francisco \_/ \\ v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 10:15: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5268137B409; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:15:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id NAA16703; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:14:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen To: David Malone Cc: Michael Robinson , hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: _sigprocmask in malloc.c causes full file table? In-Reply-To: <20010812165829.A16568@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, David Malone wrote: > On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 10:29:53AM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote: > > sigprocmask() behaves the same as pthread_sigmask(). pthread_sigmask() > > needs to obtain the current thread. In obtaining the current thread, > > the threads library must be initialized. In initializing the threads > > library malloc() is called. Wash, rinse, repeat. > > Could this be the source of Mike's original problem with X? Maybe > something that X is calling from a signal handler is resulting in > the initialising of the threads library and then ends up calling > malloc? I don't think so. It's hard to imagine how you would install a signal handler without having the threads library initialized first (sigaction is wrapped and initializes the threads library if it hasn't been already). -- Dan Eischen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 11: 8:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from zircon.seattle.wa.us (sense-sea-CovadSub-0-228.oz.net [216.39.147.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C629137B406 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:08:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@zircon.seattle.wa.us) Received: (qmail 21376 invoked by uid 1001); 12 Aug 2001 18:11:24 -0000 From: Joe Kelsey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15222.50892.75406.972475@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:11:24 -0700 To: Kazutaka YOKOTA , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach In-Reply-To: <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> References: <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under Emacs 20.7.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thank you very much for the clear and cogent explanation of your philosophy of the psm code. Could I suggest that you copy the aforementioned e-mail directly into the psm.c file for everyone to see in posterity? Also, I have a fundamental problem with device flags. I believe that every situation which uses device flags should instead use sysctl variables, allowing easy manipulation at run-time. Of course, there are no doubt situations not addressable at run-time, but these should be the rare special cases where a driver flag is used. I also second Terry's comment about 0x800. There is no reason to add yet more driver flags in order to "do the right thing". The "do the right thing" case should always be default and a flag (sysctl variable, etc) should be used for those who want "the wrong thing". Thank you for your hard work and for taking the time to explain the design issues involved. Please place the design documentation in the code. /Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 11:19:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A8E37B43F for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:19:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.141.62.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.141.62]) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02576; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B76C8C6.D7C0D639@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:19:50 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jens Schweikhardt Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? References: <3B74D180.D036D629@hway.net> <3B75D33D.68368F22@softweyr.com> <3B764D47.6060902@yahoo.com> <3B76555B.891321BF@mindspring.com> <20010812125329.A1111@schweikhardt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jens Schweikhardt wrote: > # Bash has a license which precludes its inclusion as part > # of the base system. > > [Not that I favor more shells on the root file system, but anyway:] > What about gcc and grep? Does the license differ or are these not regarded > being part of the base system? We would get rid of them if we could. We keep their source code in a ghetto, since we can't. Any company wanting to get rid of all GPL'ed and other restrictively licensed code in a FreeBSD based binary distribution can simply dike the ghetto out of the build tree, and build a still usable system binary from it, with no restrictively licensed code. Changing grep and tar was an incredibly bad decision. It has the distinction that the old, free code is there in the Attic, and can be recovered, if need be. What's in the base system comes down to "What's BSD? What's not? What's UNIX? What's not?". A BSD system is a UNIX system with BSD features... so it has the Bourne shell, and it has a csh, and it has BSD make, etc.. It also has a C compiler. The compromise for the inveterate bash user is to make it available as a port or a package, not installed by default. > If we ever put another shell besides /bin/sh on the root file > system (and I doubt it very much) there's always zsh with as > far as I can tell a two clause BSD license. With almost all > bash features and then some :-) The other consideration is image bloat. Many of us were very unhappy about the inclusion of perl in the base system; it added bloat, and now people are writing perl scripts instead of sh scripts, which is arguably very against the original UNIX philosopy of having a small set of tiny, very specific tools, which could be strung together to do any general job that needed doing. Likewise, bash encourages bad programming practices, which are against the UNIX philosophy: there are people out there who write shell scripts which will only run under bash: they do not distinguish between standard Bourne shell features, and bash extensions. This results in code, particularly from the Linux crowd, where bash _is_ /bin/sh, where the shell scripts start with "#!/bin/sh", but, in fact, will not run on every "/bin/sh" in existance. It's hard to discourage that, when you implicitly condone it... I can't imagine a bash user not wanting to: cd /bin mv sh sh.old ln bash sh if they could... then, all of the sudden, we start growing a bunch of bash-ism's in /etc/rc* ("works on my machine"), and we are now dependent on restrictively licensed code in the base system. That benefits no one. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 11:25:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from segfault.kiev.ua (segfault.kiev.ua [193.193.193.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CD0E37B40B; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:25:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from netch@iv.nn.kiev.ua) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by segfault.kiev.ua (8) with UUCP id VJS59135; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:25:17 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from netch@iv.nn.kiev.ua) Received: (from netch@localhost) by iv.nn.kiev.ua (8.11.5/8.11.5) id f7CI2Om01604; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:02:24 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from netch) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:02:24 +0300 From: Valentin Nechayev To: Daniel Eischen Cc: Michael Robinson , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: _sigprocmask in malloc.c causes full file table? Message-ID: <20010812210224.B864@iv.nn.kiev.ua> References: <20010812214608.A2701@elephant.netrinsics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from eischen@vigrid.com on Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 10:29:53AM -0400 X-42: On Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 10:29:53, eischen (Daniel Eischen) wrote about "Re: _sigprocmask in malloc.c causes full file table?": > sigprocmask() behaves the same as pthread_sigmask(). pthread_sigmask() > needs to obtain the current thread. In obtaining the current thread, > the threads library must be initialized. In initializing the threads > library malloc() is called. Wash, rinse, repeat. > > Don't put _sigprocmask() in malloc. One can use sigprocmask() in malloc() after thread library initialized. But set of signals to block in malloc() is too application-dependent than to use such approach without bad side effects. Signal unblocking windows during event cycle seems more productive. /netch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 11:35:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.elischer.org (c421509-a.pinol1.sfba.home.com [24.7.86.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D2737B405 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:35:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from elischer.org (InterJet.elischer.org [192.168.1.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA97788; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B76CAF4.BCA989DF@elischer.org> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:29:08 -0700 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Kelsey Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach References: <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <15222.50892.75406.972475@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joe Kelsey wrote: > > Thank you very much for the clear and cogent explanation of your > philosophy of the psm code. Could I suggest that you copy the > aforementioned e-mail directly into the psm.c file for everyone to see > in posterity? > > Also, I have a fundamental problem with device flags. I believe that > every situation which uses device flags should instead use sysctl > variables, allowing easy manipulation at run-time. sysctl variables are "one per system" devices are "multiple per system" unless you make the driver export a sysclt for each instance it sees then there is a mismatch. certainly there is a mismatch for probing for dvices.. which unfound device do the sysctl variables corespond to? > Of course, there are > no doubt situations not addressable at run-time, but these should be the > rare special cases where a driver flag is used. > > I also second Terry's comment about 0x800. There is no reason to add > yet more driver flags in order to "do the right thing". The "do the > right thing" case should always be default and a flag (sysctl variable, > etc) should be used for those who want "the wrong thing". > > Thank you for your hard work and for taking the time to explain the > design issues involved. Please place the design documentation in the > code. > > /Joe > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message -- +------------------------------------+ ______ _ __ | __--_|\ Julian Elischer | \ U \/ / hard at work in | / \ julian@elischer.org +------>x USA \ a very strange | ( OZ ) \___ ___ | country ! +- X_.---._/ presently in San Francisco \_/ \\ v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 11:39:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.cosmo-project.de (srv1.cosmo-project.de [213.83.6.106]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1B3F37B407 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:39:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ticso@mail.cicely.de) Received: from mail.cicely.de (cicely20 [10.1.1.22]) by srv1.cosmo-project.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f7CIdQ336263; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:39:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by mail.cicely.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f7CIcuc08454; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:38:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:38:56 +0200 From: Bernd Walter To: Jim Bryant Cc: Sheldon Hearn , tlambert2@mindspring.com, Wes Peters , Jason Vervlied , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? Message-ID: <20010812203855.E8111@cicely20.cicely.de> References: <71828.997617255@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> <3B76756F.9020809@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B76756F.9020809@yahoo.com>; from kc5vdj@yahoo.com on Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 07:24:15AM -0500 X-Operating-System: NetBSD cicely20.cicely.de 1.5 sparc Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 07:24:15AM -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: > heh.. i know, but still... > > as for me, i'd mv `/usr/local/bin/bash /dev/null`, but he did make a good point, and the fact that the big vendors are moving in the > direction he suggests [I belive Sun *IS* distributing BASH in /bin under Solaris 8, as I recall] does reinforce this idea. Yes the sun packages installs into /bin: ticso@cicely22> uname -a SunOS cicely22 5.8 Generic_108528-01 sun4m sparc SUNW,SPARCclassic ticso@cicely22> which bash /bin/bash ticso@cicely22> file /bin/bash /bin/bash: ELF 32-bit MSB executable SPARC Version 1, dynamically linked, stripped It's not the first time that Unix Vendors do very silly things - just remember that Solaris mounts / /usr and /var readwrite in singleuser mode. Just that others do is not a good reason to polute the base directories. If you have a local reason - well that's your choice - but it shouldn't be default. -- B.Walter COSMO-Project http://www.cosmo-project.de ticso@cicely.de Usergroup info@cosmo-project.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 12: 2:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC2BC37B409 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:02:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from steve@havk.org) Received: from bsd.havk.org (user-24-214-56-224.knology.net [24.214.56.224]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7CJ2IF27557; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:02:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: by bsd.havk.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B319A1A7DF; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:02:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:02:16 -0500 From: Steve Price To: Jim Bryant Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? Message-ID: <20010812140216.W9137@bsd.havk.org> References: <3B74D180.D036D629@hway.net> <3B75D33D.68368F22@softweyr.com> <3B764D47.6060902@yahoo.com> <3B76555B.891321BF@mindspring.com> <3B7658B8.7070602@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B7658B8.7070602@yahoo.com>; from kc5vdj@yahoo.com on Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 05:21:44AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 05:21:44AM -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: > Maybe one of the BASH nuts can write a BASH clone... maybe name it BABASH [Born-Again Bourne-Again SHell] under a BSD license... Why? Use zsh instead since it does everything bash does and then some. It is even released under a BSD-like license. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 12:11:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n37.san.rr.com (dt051n37.san.rr.com [204.210.32.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BAED37B409 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:11:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@DougBarton.net) Received: from DougBarton.net (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n37.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA57396; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:11:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@DougBarton.net) Message-ID: <3B76D4D1.BC8C327F@DougBarton.net> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:11:13 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach References: <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <200108121614.f7CGE3W01341@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > > In message <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Kazutaka YOKOTA writes: > : For the last few years, I have struggled to figure out the contents of > : packets sent by various mice. No, I have not published a manual or > : notes (other than code itself and CVS logs) to describe what I have > : found. I know I should do that. I simply haven't had time. Don't > : accuse me of being lazy. It's volunteer project! People do what s/he > : can do in his/her spare time! > > Yokota-san, > I've had 2 mice that haven't worked with FreeBSD since you > started doing the mice support. Both of them were defective mice > (took them back to the store and exchanged them for an identical mouse > that worked). Every weird, oddball mouce that I've ever tried on many > different machines have just worked. In those cases where there were > problems, you've been extremely helpful in getting me enough > information to fix the problem (usually it boiled down to a > configuration issue). I've thought of many kind words to describe > your efforts, and "lazy" has never been one of them. > > I think that it is summer and people like to complain more > than in the winter. It happens every year and is hard to not take > personally. I was going to write essentially the same e-mail, so I'll settle for a "mee too." The people doing the complaining need to stop doing that and figure out a way to help _other_ than lobbing in grenades from the sidelines. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 12:13:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B80C837B405; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:13:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.141.62.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.141.62]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25349; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B76D568.5DC1603D@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:13:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: Mike Smith , Matt Dillon , Kazutaka YOKOTA , Sean Kelly , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach References: <200108112135.f7BLZEb01968@mass.dis.org> <3B75C7B1.FF2E739E@mindspring.com> <15222.44015.177885.83834@nomad.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nate Williams wrote: > > I have tried 5 switches. At ClickArray, we have a large number > > of Belkin Omniview switches. I have one with firmware version > > 1.9 at my desk, and freqiently use one with firmware version 1.6 > > in our lab, with the results I have described. > > Strange, as the group at Nokia is running quite a lot of them (Belkin > OmniView and OmniCube) without any problems. > > I'm guessing it's operator error. :) You killed the context; v1.9 does _NOT_ have the problem with FreeBSD, since Belkin went out of its way to support FreeBSD. Prior versions _do_ have a problem with FreeBSD, because of the keyboard probe, which, among other things, flashes the "scroll lock" LED. Here is the _precise_ problem with older firmware: The Belkin KVM switch uses the "on->off->on" or "off->on->off" of this LED to signal a port change character is coming next, and times out the port change request only after a little while. The problem was that, while in this state, data from the keyboard which was not one of the numeric key characters was not buffered, and was lost. This included probe data from the keyboard being sent back to the FreeBSD box. The obvious intent of non-buffering was to ensure that if the user wanted to switch to, say, port 3, and they hit the "Scroll Lock" key twice to initiate the toggle, that after a wrong key that was not a console switch key, they could hit the real console switch key, and not have to restart the toggle command. This is particularly onerous, if one has a cascaded control system, since you are required to hit two digits (or the space bar, and then use the cursor keys and "enter" to select a console, or "esc" to abort the selection). -- The fundamental problem here is that FreeBSD _resets_ a keyboard which has already been correctly reset by the BIOS, if it is present. Get rid of the gratuitous reset, and assume that the BIOS has configured the keyboard the same way keyboards have been configured by POST routines since the first IBM PC was built, and the problem goes away for the Belkin KVM with the older firmware. -- The FreeBSD keyboard detection is another matter; FreeBSD will assume that there is no keyboard, and try to "helpfully" drop you into serial console mode. Some of this _used_ to be mitigated by checking for the "extended keyboard bit" in the "keyboard identify" BIOS call, but this was a problem for people with antique keyboards. My suggestion for a probe in this case would be to set up a different handler for the reset signal, and then ask the keyboard to send the reset signal. If it does, then there is a keyboard present. Unfortunately, this will not work with things like the QVM mechanical switch, unless the switch selects the system being booted during reboot. More ideally, the FreeBSD box would detect whether or not the video card had been disabled, and use _that_ to decide whether or not to use a keyboard. It would become the job of the video driver -- be it a regular driver, or be it an LCD driver -- to make the distinction. Absolutely ideally, FreeBSD would come up with the boot code on _both_ (this is an option), and then be told by the user to not use one of them -- or boot using _both_, until told to do otherwise. This would _also_ solve the Alpha serial console dance. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 12:38:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n37.san.rr.com (dt051n37.san.rr.com [204.210.32.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC9CC37B401 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:38:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@DougBarton.net) Received: from DougBarton.net (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n37.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA57550 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:38:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@DougBarton.net) Message-ID: <3B76DB35.DB46C32F@DougBarton.net> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:38:29 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Panic on 8/10 -current: sleeping process owns a mutex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Guys, cvsup'ed, built/installed world yesterday, and got the following: IdlePTD 4489216 initial pcb at 3774a0 panicstr: sleeping process owns a mutex panic messages: --- panic: sleeping process owns a mutex (kgdb) where #0 dumpsys () at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:478 #1 0xc01dadac in boot (howto=260) at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:321 #2 0xc01db1d9 in panic (fmt=0xc03021f5 "sleeping process owns a mutex") at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:600 #3 0xc01d2c74 in propagate_priority (p=0xcbb75320) at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_mutex.c:133 #4 0xc01d34a0 in _mtx_lock_sleep (m=0xc03b2b20, opts=0, file=0xc030ade0 "/usr/local/src/sys/kern/vfs_syscalls.c", line=609) at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_mutex.c:396 #5 0xc022254b in sync (p=0xc03b1b40, uap=0x0) at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/vfs_syscalls.c:609 #6 0xc01da870 in boot (howto=256) at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:230 #7 0xc01db1d9 in panic (fmt=0xc03021f5 "sleeping process owns a mutex") at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:600 #8 0xc01d2c74 in propagate_priority (p=0xcbb75320) at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_mutex.c:133 #9 0xc01d34a0 in _mtx_lock_sleep (m=0xc03b2b20, opts=0, file=0xc030a800 "/usr/local/src/sys/kern/vfs_subr.c", line=2663) at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_mutex.c:396 #10 0xc0220c63 in sync_fsync (ap=0xcc30af5c) at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/vfs_subr.c:2663 #11 0xc021ceec in sched_sync () at vnode_if.h:441 #12 0xc01caa16 in fork_exit (callout=0xc021cd80 , arg=0x0, frame=0xcc30afa8) at /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_fork.c:723 The dump is available if desired. Immediately prior to the crash I was getting a lot of these on the console: Aug 12 01:00:52 Master /boot/kernel/kernel: /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_synch.c:377: sleeping with "mountlist" locke d from /usr/local/src/sys/kern/vfs_syscalls.c:548 Aug 12 01:00:54 Master /boot/kernel/kernel: lock order reversal Aug 12 01:00:54 Master /boot/kernel/kernel: 1st 0xc03b2b20 mountlist @ /usr/local/src/sys/kern/vfs_syscalls.c:548 Aug 12 01:00:54 Master /boot/kernel/kernel: 2nd 0xc03b5a00 Giant @ /usr/local/src/sys/kern/kern_synch.c:481 I had a cdrom mounted via amd and was viewing real audio files on it. HTH, Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 12:55: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from edgemaster.zombie.org (cx497943-d.omhaw1.ne.home.com [24.3.233.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA1D37B408 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:54:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smkelly@zombie.org) Received: by edgemaster.zombie.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3061C103A02; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:54:56 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:54:56 -0500 From: Sean Kelly To: Kazutaka YOKOTA Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Random Lockups Message-ID: <20010812145455.A596@edgemaster.zombie.org> References: <20010807234645.A573@edgemaster.zombie.org> <20010809032027.A99813@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010810174521.A681@edgemaster.zombie.org> <200108110241.LAA20110@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <20010810221944.A90165@edgemaster.zombie.org> <200108110627.PAA21155@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <20010811013959.A588@edgemaster.zombie.org> <200108110828.RAA21659@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200108110828.RAA21659@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.19i Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:28:44PM +0900, Kazutaka YOKOTA wrote: > Ok, I am getting the picture. I think the keyboard driver is thinking > it has done the right thing to the keyboard (to turn LEDs on, setting > the repeat rate, etc), and is not in the infinite loop. This is > the reason why this is a keyboard lock-up rather than system lock-up. I'm not sure what the driver is thinking, but further testing has shown this to be totally a hardware problem. > So, we have two possiblities: we have compatibility problem with your > keyboard, or we have compatibility problem with the keyboard > controller on your motherboard. (We have experienced both problems in =2E.. or the keyboard controller on my motherboard is hosed. Further testi= ng shows that the NumLock state changes causes freezing outside of FreeBSD. I didn't know what I was testing for before, but now I do. I also tried my trusty FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE install CD. The keyboard locked up there too, and it has *never* done that before. Me thinks my 4 month old ABIT KT7-RAID is broken. Trying another, totally different, keyboard caused the same problems. Thanks for your time! I guess I'll have to persue this with ABIT and not FreeBSD. Hopefully they'll replace the thing since the dealer warranty is expired. --=20 Sean Kelly | PGP KeyID: 77042C7B smkelly@zombie.org | http://www.zombie.org For PGP key, send e-mail with subject "send pgp key" --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE7dt8P2aukpHcELHsRArkqAJwPxzLqOnFUh/2PQ6MmFNhmPxfNbQCfWxFQ s2zQehfNFwjjlXhE8ZGX3qY= =DwKO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fUYQa+Pmc3FrFX/N-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 14:22:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from canonware.com (dsl081-058-209.dsl-isp.net [64.81.58.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E1B37B401 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:22:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: by canonware.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7217EDC; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:29:11 -0700 From: Jason Evans To: John Polstra Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach Message-ID: <20010812142911.B81651@canonware.com> References: <20010807234645.A573@edgemaster.zombie.org> <200108110828.RAA21659@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <3B7589A5.C2B1DE00@mindspring.com> <200108111954.f7BJscE19607@earth.backplane.com> <200108112004.f7BK47Q25932@vashon.polstra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200108112004.f7BK47Q25932@vashon.polstra.com>; from jdp@polstra.com on Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 01:04:07PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 01:04:07PM -0700, John Polstra wrote: > > I have no argument about the keyboard probes. I just want to add > that in the case of the Belkin OmniView, it should be noted that > Belkin shipped a bunch of them with a couple of EPROM chips swapped > accidentally. There's a page on the Belkin web site that tells how to > check for it and how to fix it. Once I put the chips into the right > sockets, my OmniView started working a _whole_ lot better. :-) The > weird thing is, it appeared to kind of sort of work most of the time > even before. So all along I assumed it was just a poorly designed > device, when actually it was just assembled wrong. (I still think > it's a poorly designed device, but it's a lot better than it was > before I swapped the chips.) I had the same problems, and took my KVM switch apart, expecting to find the chips reversed. They were in fact installed correctly, so at least in my case, the problem exists regardless. If I'm careful to have the KVM switch on the same channel as a booting machine, and leave it on that channel until the probing is done, everything seems to work fine. Otherwise, the keyboard is not detected. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 14:35:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from wall.polstra.com (rtrwan160.accessone.com [206.213.115.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECA5237B406 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:35:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdp@wall.polstra.com) Received: from vashon.polstra.com (vashon.polstra.com [206.213.73.13]) by wall.polstra.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7CLZMX55295; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:35:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdp@wall.polstra.com) Received: (from jdp@localhost) by vashon.polstra.com (8.11.5/8.11.0) id f7CLZM327913; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:35:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdp) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200108122135.f7CLZM327913@vashon.polstra.com> To: current@freebsd.org From: John Polstra Cc: jasone@canonware.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach In-Reply-To: <20010812142911.B81651@canonware.com> References: <20010807234645.A573@edgemaster.zombie.org> <200108111954.f7BJscE19607@earth.backplane.com> <200108112004.f7BK47Q25932@vashon.polstra.com> <20010812142911.B81651@canonware.com> Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article <20010812142911.B81651@canonware.com>, Jason Evans wrote: > On Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 01:04:07PM -0700, John Polstra wrote: > > > > I just want to add that in the case of the Belkin OmniView, it > > should be noted that Belkin shipped a bunch of them with a couple > > of EPROM chips swapped accidentally. > > I had the same problems, and took my KVM switch apart, expecting to find > the chips reversed. They were in fact installed correctly, so at least in > my case, the problem exists regardless. If I'm careful to have the KVM > switch on the same channel as a booting machine, and leave it on that > channel until the probing is done, everything seems to work fine. > Otherwise, the keyboard is not detected. Maybe they swapped the labels on the chips too. :-) Seriously, that's really strange. I have all variety of machines hooked up to my Belkin OmniView, including FreeBSD (-current and -stable, i386 and Alpha), Linux, OpenBSD, NetBSD, Tru64, NT, and Win2k, and I don't see any major problems, even using the mouse (no-name 2-button). There is only one thing that drives my the KVM out of its mind: powering down the Alpha. As soon as I do that, the KVM is totally hosed. Even invoking its so-called "reset" function (pressing both selector buttons simultaneously) doesn't help. As soon as I reboot any machine (even the Alpha) that's connected to the KVM, it's OK again. John -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Disappointment is a good sign of basic intelligence." -- Chögyam Trungpa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 14:37:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from canonware.com (dsl081-058-209.dsl-isp.net [64.81.58.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FD6437B40B for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:37:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: by canonware.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7115DDC; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:43:55 -0700 From: Jason Evans To: John Polstra Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach Message-ID: <20010812144355.C81651@canonware.com> References: <20010807234645.A573@edgemaster.zombie.org> <200108111954.f7BJscE19607@earth.backplane.com> <200108112004.f7BK47Q25932@vashon.polstra.com> <20010812142911.B81651@canonware.com> <200108122135.f7CLZM327913@vashon.polstra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200108122135.f7CLZM327913@vashon.polstra.com>; from jdp@polstra.com on Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 02:35:22PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 02:35:22PM -0700, John Polstra wrote: > > Maybe they swapped the labels on the chips too. :-) Well, it apparently doesn't fry anything to have the chips reversed, so maybe I should try swapping them just to make sure. =) Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 14:38:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.awen.com (dragon.awen.com [66.120.7.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E264437B40A; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:38:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mburgett@dragon.awen.com) Received: from dragon.awen.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.awen.com (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16) with ESMTP id f7CLcP2d021077; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mburgett@localhost) by dragon.awen.com (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16) id f7CLcPBb021076; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200108122138.f7CLcPBb021076@dragon.awen.com> From: "Mike Burgett" To: "Mike Smith" , "Nate Williams" , "tlambert2@mindspring.com" Cc: "current@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:38:25 -0700 Reply-To: "Mike Burgett" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.20.2360) For Windows 2000 (5.0.2195;2) In-Reply-To: <15222.44015.177885.83834@nomad.yogotech.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:16:47 -0600, Nate Williams wrote: >> > > :Finally, most keyboard/mouse/monitor switches don't work with >> > > :FreeBSD; >> > >> > This is actually not true. I'd doubt that you've even tried many of them. >> >> Boy, you are on one about me... >> >> I have tried 5 switches. At ClickArray, we have a large number >> of Belkin Omniview switches. I have one with firmware version >> 1.9 at my desk, and freqiently use one with firmware version 1.6 >> in our lab, with the results I have described. > >Strange, as the group at Nokia is running quite a lot of them (Belkin >OmniView and OmniCube) without any problems. > >I'm guessing it's operator error. :) > > > > >Nate > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > I've seen the 'have to be on the machine while booting' behavior using a Belkin Omniview Pro switch, which oddly, wasn't a problem with their OmniCube switch, at least not with my machines. Windows had as much, or more problems with not having the console on the booting machine as fbsd though. Again, this is only my (one) data point. I finally got fed up with the Belkin, because *windows* keep losing it's mouse (or instead of just losing it, it would start sending what appeared to be random button-press events for tracking events...) and broke down and bought a Raritan KVM. Yep it is/was pricey, but it's probably one of the purchases I've been happiest with, over the long run. Video quality ('doze and X displays) is much, *much* better than the Belkin, and no machine has a problem booting without the console pointing to it. Just my $.02. Thanks, Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 15: 4: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp012.mail.yahoo.com (smtp012.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D797A37B405 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:04:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Aug 2001 22:04:02 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B76FD51.40805@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:04:01 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Mallett Cc: Wes Peters , Jason Vervlied , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? References: <3B74D180.D036D629@hway.net> <3B75D33D.68368F22@softweyr.com> <3B764D47.6060902@yahoo.com> <20010812152709.A73284@NewGold.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I said I'd drop it, but apparently there are people that don't understand the dinosaur mentality of certain organizations such as DOD, DISA/DECC, OSD, DARPA, USA, USN, USAF, and USMC. If it's not in the base setup, on a production box, you can't use it. Everything must be kept in it's ORIGINAL install location, otherwise you MUST justify it and ask DISA/DECC for a waiver, which in itself, is a pain in the ass, and in many cases, not likely to happen due to dinosaur mentality. I now refer you to the recent news concerning the TrustedBSD project. FreeBSD is getting military contracts now. We need to think ahead to the needs of a whole new class of admin and user, and they are in highly restrictive environments that preclude `mv /usr/local/bin/*sh /bin`. I'm sure there are equally restrictive environments for computers and operating systems in *EVERY* country, but I speak from my personal experience with the dinosaurs at DOD. At DOD, *EVERY* copy of FreeBSD will be subject to what I am saying. In the Sun environment in which I did my last DOD contract at, if tcsh wasn't in /bin, I wouldn't have been able to use it. That's how backwards they are. In answer to your statement, some admins can be fired, even arrested and brought up on charges for doing what you suggest. I'm certain that this happens in countries other than America as well. Joseph Mallett wrote: > If these admins can't figure out cp `which bash` /bin and then how to add it > to etc/shells and chsh root, then I really question if they should be the kind > of people that dictate the future of FreeBSD. > > 0n Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 04:32:55AM -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: > >>IMHO, all widely accepted shells should be put in /bin jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 15:11:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 873A737B405 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:11:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7CMBM805443; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:11:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:11:22 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Buildworld pain in -current Message-ID: <20010812151122.A5339@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from doconnor@gsoft.com.au on Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:16:28PM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:16:28PM +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > I recently had a chance to buildworld on new -stable and -current > machines with similar spec'd HW.. > The -current build was _slow_ -> > 10756.71 real 2026.00 user 7814.64 sys > vs -stable -> > 2332.03 real 1193.12 user 425.94 sys GENERIC kernel for both? If so look at all the debugging that is turned on in the -current case to help SMPng debugging until release time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 15:12:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 581A537B408 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:12:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7CMCU005467; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:12:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:12:30 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Buildworld pain in -current Message-ID: <20010812151230.B5339@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from doconnor@gsoft.com.au on Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:16:28PM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:16:28PM +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > I recently had a chance to buildworld on new -stable and -current machines with > similar spec'd HW.. > The -current build was _slow_ -> > 10756.71 real 2026.00 user 7814.64 sys > vs -stable -> > 2332.03 real 1193.12 user 425.94 sys Also forgot to mention the difference in default malloc.conf settings. If you are going to "benchmark" the build of both systems, you need to make sure you are doing it on an "even" ground (best you can). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 15:14:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C71037B40C for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:14:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18213; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 16:14:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17791; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 16:14:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15222.65411.958969.341986@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 16:13:23 -0600 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: Jens Schweikhardt , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? In-Reply-To: <3B76C8C6.D7C0D639@mindspring.com> References: <3B74D180.D036D629@hway.net> <3B75D33D.68368F22@softweyr.com> <3B764D47.6060902@yahoo.com> <3B76555B.891321BF@mindspring.com> <20010812125329.A1111@schweikhardt.net> <3B76C8C6.D7C0D639@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > # Bash has a license which precludes its inclusion as part > > # of the base system. > > > > [Not that I favor more shells on the root file system, but anyway:] > > What about gcc and grep? Does the license differ or are these not regarded > > being part of the base system? > > We would get rid of them if we could. We keep their source > code in a ghetto, since we can't. Any company wanting to get > rid of all GPL'ed and other restrictively licensed code in a > FreeBSD based binary distribution can simply dike the ghetto > out of the build tree, and build a still usable system binary > from it, with no restrictively licensed code. > > Changing grep and tar was an incredibly bad decision. It has > the distinction that the old, free code is there in the Attic, > and can be recovered, if need be. Umm, Terry. There was no 'free' tar. Back in the 386BSD days, when we were looking for a free tar, I contacted Andy Tanenbaum (of Minix) and got permission to use it, since we didn't have one. However, it was voted down as being 'too simple', so we opted for the GNU one. There isn't a BSD or public domain version of tar anywhere to be found, unless you consider 'pax' running in tar emulation mode acceptable. (I certainly don't.) The same story exists with grep. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 15:16:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5852B37B406 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:16:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7CMFbM05541; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:15:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:15:37 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Bernd Walter Cc: Jim Bryant , Sheldon Hearn , tlambert2@mindspring.com, Wes Peters , Jason Vervlied , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? Message-ID: <20010812151537.C5339@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <71828.997617255@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> <3B76756F.9020809@yahoo.com> <20010812203855.E8111@cicely20.cicely.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010812203855.E8111@cicely20.cicely.de>; from ticso@mail.cicely.de on Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 08:38:56PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 08:38:56PM +0200, Bernd Walter wrote: > Yes the sun packages installs into /bin: > ticso@cicely22> uname -a > SunOS cicely22 5.8 Generic_108528-01 sun4m sparc SUNW,SPARCclassic > ticso@cicely22> which bash > /bin/bash > ticso@cicely22> file /bin/bash > /bin/bash: ELF 32-bit MSB executable SPARC Version 1, dynamically linked, stripped > > It's not the first time that Unix Vendors do very silly things - just I assume you are referring to the dynamically linked attribute. Note that it is not Sun being "silly" -- the ELF binary ABI *REQUIRES* dynamic linking. A statically linked "ELF" binary is not ABI compliant. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 16:10:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from ns.plaut.de (ns.plaut.de [194.99.75.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ACFE37B405; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 16:10:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@nihil.plaut.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by ns.plaut.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id BAA17090; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 01:09:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root@nihil.plaut.de) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by nihil.plaut.de (8.11.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id f7CN8xP01241; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 01:08:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root@nihil) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 01:08:59 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Reifenberger To: Julian Elischer Cc: FreeBSD-Current , Subject: Re: Anyone working on missing sysv* ipc functionality In-Reply-To: <3B76B032.1491F636@elischer.org> Message-ID: <20010813004824.L1212-200000@nihil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-669462106-997657739=:1212" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --0-669462106-997657739=:1212 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Julian Elischer wrote: ... > my guess is that you are.... Lets see... Attached is a first shot to get /compat/linux/usr/bin/ipcs -s working. I extended sem.h for SEM_STAT and gave it a special handling in __semctl() to accept a index number. Please review and commmit if acceptable. BTW: In sysv_*.c the sysctls got extended to be tunables. This left the question how (readonly)sysctl vars should get initialised in modules. FE: semmni is currently readonly and used on modload time to allocate a scruct. Because the sysctl var doesn't exist before modload but is used during modload there is no possibility to preset the value except on compile-time. One sollution is to use tunables but can they be changed after startup? BTW2: Is it possible that changing a sysctl(from userland) var calls a kernel function (maybe for sanity checks)? Or has the sysct to be of the type SYSCTL_PROC? Bye! ---- Michael Reifenberger ^.*Plaut.*$, IT, R/3 Basis, GPS --0-669462106-997657739=:1212 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; name="sem.diff" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: <20010813010859.T1212@nihil> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="sem.diff" LS0tIC4vaTM4Ni9saW51eC9saW51eC5oLm9yaWcJV2VkIEF1ZyAgOCAwMDow OToyOCAyMDAxDQorKysgLi9pMzg2L2xpbnV4L2xpbnV4LmgJTW9uIEF1ZyAx MyAwMDo0MTo1MCAyMDAxDQpAQCAtNDU3LDQgKzQ1Nyw2IEBADQogI2RlZmlu ZQlMSU5VWF9TRVRWQUwJCTE2DQogI2RlZmluZQlMSU5VWF9TRVRBTEwJCTE3 DQorI2RlZmluZQlMSU5VWF9TRU1fU1RBVAkJMTgNCisjZGVmaW5lCUxJTlVY X1NFTV9JTkZPCQkxOQ0KIA0KIC8qDQotLS0gLi9rZXJuL3N5c3Zfc2VtLmMu b3JpZwlTdW4gQXVnIDEyIDEzOjE4OjM0IDIwMDENCisrKyAuL2tlcm4vc3lz dl9zZW0uYwlTdW4gQXVnIDEyIDIzOjMxOjEwIDIwMDENCkBAIC0xNzEsNCAr MTcxLDE0IEBADQogCXJlZ2lzdGVyIGludCBpOw0KIA0KKwlUVU5BQkxFX0lO VF9GRVRDSCgia2Vybi5pcGMuc2VtbWFwIiwgJnNlbWluZm8uc2VtbWFwKTsN CisJVFVOQUJMRV9JTlRfRkVUQ0goImtlcm4uaXBjLnNlbW1uaSIsICZzZW1p 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<15222.44015.177885.83834@nomad.yogotech.com> <200108122138.f7CLcPBb021076@dragon.awen.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200108122138.f7CLcPBb021076@dragon.awen.com>; from "mburgett@awen.com" on Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at = 02:38:25PM X-PGP-Key: 0x1EDDFAAD X-PGP-Fingerprint: C665 A17F 9A56 286C 5CFB 1DEA 9F4F 5CEF 1EDD FAAD X-Web-Homepage: http://sean.chittenden.org/ Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I've seen the 'have to be on the machine while booting' behavior > using a Belkin Omniview Pro switch, which oddly, wasn't a problem > with their OmniCube switch, at least not with my machines. Windows > had as much, or more problems with not having the console on the > booting machine as fbsd though. Again, this is only my (one) data > point. Make that two data points, I don't think you're alone in this observation. > I finally got fed up with the Belkin, because *windows* keep losing > it's mouse (or instead of just losing it, it would start sending > what appeared to be random button-press events for tracking events...) > and broke down and bought a Raritan KVM. You mean you got tired of the "Ctl+esc, Up arrow, Enter, Enter" key sequence to get the mouse back? I wonder why.... ;~) None the less, having to have the console active for the system while the BIOS && OS probe the keyboard is a pain when managing a large number of systems. = =20 We eventually made a policy that required the use of a laptop + serial cable anyone when you went to one of the data centers to do some administration of the systems (downtime for a keyboard wasn't an option). -sc --=20 Sean Chittenden --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: Sean Chittenden iEYEARECAAYFAjt3El4ACgkQn09c7x7d+q1rzwCdFFPdS+WFH/4Uq5OBsx7Bv2Wl vysAn0NkYEwTylT8K6hEe3nN1erJ3e9i =Rk1b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VbJkn9YxBvnuCH5J-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 16:54: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gnf.org (firewall.gnf.org [208.44.31.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F6F337B409 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 16:54:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gordont@gnf.org) Received: by mail.gnf.org (Postfix, from userid 888) id 8AF8711E504; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 16:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.gnf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8705F11A56A; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 16:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 16:54:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Gordon Tetlow To: Jim Bryant Cc: Joseph Mallett , Wes Peters , Jason Vervlied , Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? In-Reply-To: <3B76FD51.40805@yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As a preface to this whole thing, I find it higly amusing that you are sending this mail from a Linux box. Of course, for that matter, so am I. (I'm planning on changing that soon.) On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Jim Bryant wrote: > I said I'd drop it, but apparently there are people that don't > understand the dinosaur mentality of certain organizations such as > DOD, DISA/DECC, OSD, DARPA, USA, USN, USAF, and USMC. > > If it's not in the base setup, on a production box, you can't use it. > Everything must be kept in it's ORIGINAL install location, otherwise > you MUST justify it and ask DISA/DECC for a waiver, which in itself, > is a pain in the ass, and in many cases, not likely to happen due to > dinosaur mentality. You said it yourself. They are a dinosaur. Why should be drag ourselves back to the paleolithic and cater to a very specific problem in our base tree? bash is a nice shell. I use it as my normal shell, but when I drop to single user mode, I *always* end up using /bin/sh. I'm not a fan of csh (tcsh isn't bad though) and I only write shell scripts in /bin/sh. Besides, how often do you need to drop to single user mode and *really* need bash? > I now refer you to the recent news concerning the TrustedBSD project. > > FreeBSD is getting military contracts now. We need to think ahead to > the needs of a whole new class of admin and user, and they are in > highly restrictive environments that preclude `mv /usr/local/bin/*sh > /bin`. And those people that are working there are probably programming in COBOL and Fortran. > I'm sure there are equally restrictive environments for computers and > operating systems in *EVERY* country, but I speak from my personal > experience with the dinosaurs at DOD. At DOD, *EVERY* copy of FreeBSD > will be subject to what I am saying. In the Sun environment in which > I did my last DOD contract at, if tcsh wasn't in /bin, I wouldn't have > been able to use it. That's how backwards they are. > > In answer to your statement, some admins can be fired, even arrested > and brought up on charges for doing what you suggest. I'm certain > that this happens in countries other than America as well. Again, this is a problem for you and the DOD to sort out. It should be of no concern to the project. -gordon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 17:17: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mass.dis.org (mass.dis.org [216.240.45.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5BE937B403 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:17:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Received: from mass.dis.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.dis.org (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7D0KXW01270; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:20:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Message-Id: <200108130020.f7D0KXW01270@mass.dis.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:13:44 PDT." <3B76D568.5DC1603D@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:20:33 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Here is the _precise_ problem with older firmware: > > The Belkin KVM switch uses the "on->off->on" or "off->on->off" > of this LED to signal a port change character is coming next, > and times out the port change request only after a little > while. Ah, so the problem is actually a design defect in the Belkin switch. Nice to have that part confirmed. > The fundamental problem here is that FreeBSD _resets_ a > keyboard which has already been correctly reset by the BIOS, > if it is present. You can't be sure of this. Just as we reset everything else we talk to, we reset the keyboard. Specific examples where *not* resetting things gets us into trouble can typically be found by looking for "when I reboot from Windows XYZ doesn't work". > The FreeBSD keyboard detection is another matter; FreeBSD > will assume that there is no keyboard, and try to "helpfully" > drop you into serial console mode. No it won't, unless you explicitly configure it. > Some of this _used_ to > be mitigated by checking for the "extended keyboard bit" in > the "keyboard identify" BIOS call, but this was a problem > for people with antique keyboards. This is not the problem, as I have already mentioned in another message. BIOS vendors have *stopped* setting this bit. > My suggestion for a probe in this case would be to set up > a different handler for the reset signal, and then ask the > keyboard to send the reset signal. If it does, then there > is a keyboard present. Keyboard probing is a dead loss, which is why we don't do it by default. > More ideally, the FreeBSD box would detect whether or not > the video card had been disabled, and use _that_ to decide > whether or not to use a keyboard. It would become the job > of the video driver -- be it a regular driver, or be it an > LCD driver -- to make the distinction. There is no standardised way of detecting whether a display has been "disabled". > Absolutely ideally, FreeBSD would come up with the boot code > on _both_ (this is an option), and then be told by the user > to not use one of them -- or boot using _both_, until told > to do otherwise. We've tried this already; people didn't like it. > This would _also_ solve the Alpha serial console dance. Actually, it wouldn't, since we use the SRM console for quite a ways, and SRM doesn't do multi-source console I/O. (And when you have a version of SRM that allows you to 'pull' the console by sending a few keystrokes, you can't work out where it's actually directed anyway.) -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 17:25:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7773037B406 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:25:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 23323 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2001 00:25:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 13 Aug 2001 00:25:28 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <15222.50892.75406.972475@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:25:31 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Joe Kelsey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach Cc: current@freebsd.org, Kazutaka YOKOTA Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 12-Aug-01 Joe Kelsey wrote: > Thank you very much for the clear and cogent explanation of your > philosophy of the psm code. Could I suggest that you copy the > aforementioned e-mail directly into the psm.c file for everyone to see > in posterity? > > Also, I have a fundamental problem with device flags. I believe that > every situation which uses device flags should instead use sysctl > variables, allowing easy manipulation at run-time. Of course, there are > no doubt situations not addressable at run-time, but these should be the > rare special cases where a driver flag is used. Patches accepted. This is a volunteer project. If you want to be productive, work up a device attribute interface that allows devices to query attributes and allows devices to be notified when outside events change their attributes. You should probably use kernel environment variables (like the hints we have now) for setting attributes from the loader, and then use sysctl's to back the runtime interface (IMO). I realize the user side of the attributes is up for debate, but working on solving this problem is much more problem than complaining that people aren't giving you the free gift you want. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 17:25:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C9B37B401 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:25:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 23310 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2001 00:25:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 13 Aug 2001 00:25:27 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3B75C7B1.FF2E739E@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:25:30 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach Cc: current@freebsd.org, Sean Kelly , Kazutaka YOKOTA , Matt Dillon , Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 12-Aug-01 Terry Lambert wrote: > Mike Smith wrote: >> >> > :Finally, most keyboard/mouse/monitor switches don't work with >> > :FreeBSD; >> >> This is actually not true. I'd doubt that you've even tried many of them. *sigh* It seems no one has investigated why we probe keyboards at all. Maybe if people would do a little research, they would _learn_ something. Assuming that we always have PS/2 keyboards present breaks the case of people who use *shock* non-PS/2 keyboards like USB keyboards. Now, I'm sure that you think that everyone should use PS/2 keyboards and that anyone who doesn't is just absolute pure scum of the earth, but I don't share that same view. :-P Seriously, if you go up to a FreeBSD box and hotplug a USB keyboard (which was _designed_ for hotplug) it will work just fine. Now, there are a couple of different ways to fix the problem: 1) Implement probing/detection for PS/2 keyboards post-boot. You can hack this by having the atkbd0 driver always attach to IRQ 1, but not create and export a kbd0 syscons keyboard driver until it gets an interrupt event from the keyboard. 2) Rewrite the syscons keyboard layer so that we don't have a primary keyboard that is always the current keyboard, but instead make it accept input from all keyboards currently plugged into the system. With this you could go back to assuming a PS/2 keyboard is always around as a hack. Obviously Windows can handle USB keyboards, so why don't you put your money where your mouth is and make FreeBSD work fine on hardware that Windows works on. Patches accepted. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 17:25:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFE5537B40D for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:25:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 79557 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2001 00:25:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 13 Aug 2001 00:25:29 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3B76D568.5DC1603D@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:25:32 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Sean Kelly , Kazutaka YOKOTA , Matt Dillon , Mike Smith , Nate Williams Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 12-Aug-01 Terry Lambert wrote: > The FreeBSD keyboard detection is another matter; FreeBSD > will assume that there is no keyboard, and try to "helpfully" > drop you into serial console mode. Some of this _used_ to > be mitigated by checking for the "extended keyboard bit" in > the "keyboard identify" BIOS call, but this was a problem > for people with antique keyboards. Umm, this is the -P flag to boot2 which is no longer on by default. Not a kernel issue. > My suggestion for a probe in this case would be to set up > a different handler for the reset signal, and then ask the > keyboard to send the reset signal. If it does, then there > is a keyboard present. Yeah, and resetting the controller works fine on machines that don't have keyboards, so it returns false positives. > More ideally, the FreeBSD box would detect whether or not > the video card had been disabled, and use _that_ to decide > whether or not to use a keyboard. It would become the job > of the video driver -- be it a regular driver, or be it an > LCD driver -- to make the distinction. This might be practical except that lots of motherboards ship with built-in video these days. > Absolutely ideally, FreeBSD would come up with the boot code > on _both_ (this is an option), and then be told by the user > to not use one of them -- or boot using _both_, until told > to do otherwise. > > This would _also_ solve the Alpha serial console dance. What dance? Works great for me. If SRM uses serial console, so does FreeBSD. If SRM uses vidconsole, so does FreeBSD. In fact, this is the _only_ way it can work on the Alpha since SRM just gives you one console device handle and one boot device handle. Have you actually used an Alpha before? :-P -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 17:26: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C4EE37B40A for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:25:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f7D0PYc88446; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:25:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:25:33 -0700 From: Steve Kargl To: Gordon Tetlow Cc: Jim Bryant , Joseph Mallett , Wes Peters , Jason Vervlied , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? Message-ID: <20010812172533.A88389@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <3B76FD51.40805@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from gordont@gnf.org on Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 04:54:08PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 04:54:08PM -0700, Gordon Tetlow wrote: > > FreeBSD is getting military contracts now. We need to think ahead to > > the needs of a whole new class of admin and user, and they are in > > highly restrictive environments that preclude `mv /usr/local/bin/*sh > > /bin`. > > And those people that are working there are probably programming in COBOL > and Fortran. > Sigh. A stupid language war troll. You haven't looked at the Fortran language since 1977 have you? Back to the topic at hand, bash isn't in the root filesystem. Get over it. -- Steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 17:32:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail6.speakeasy.net (mail6.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21E737B407 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:32:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 24574 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2001 00:32:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail6.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 13 Aug 2001 00:32:34 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:32:38 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: John Baldwin Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , current@freebsd.org, Joe Kelsey Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 13-Aug-01 John Baldwin wrote: > runtime interface (IMO). I realize the user side of the attributes is up for > debate, but working on solving this problem is much more problem than > complaining that people aren't giving you the free gift you want. s/problem/productive/2 -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 17:44:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C26037B408 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:44:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7D0ihq02049; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:44:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7D0igW03766; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:44:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200108130044.f7D0igW03766@harmony.village.org> To: Joe Kelsey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:11:24 PDT." <15222.50892.75406.972475@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> References: <15222.50892.75406.972475@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:44:42 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <15222.50892.75406.972475@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Joe Kelsey writes: : I also second Terry's comment about 0x800. There is no reason to add : yet more driver flags in order to "do the right thing". The "do the : right thing" case should always be default and a flag (sysctl variable, : etc) should be used for those who want "the wrong thing". The main reason that it wasn't added at the time was that it was expensive in terms of CPU utilization, so it shouldn't be on by default. There may be other reasons as well... Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 18: 8:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from nebula.anchoragerescue.org (cable-115-7-237-24.anchorageak.net [24.237.7.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BB8F37B407 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:08:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from akbeech@anchoragerescue.org) Received: from galaxy.anchoragerescue.org (galaxy.anchoragerescue.org [24.237.7.95]) by nebula.anchoragerescue.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6E311DB for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:08:29 -0800 (AKDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Beech Rintoul To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Error Msg on su Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:08:29 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01081217082900.05914@galaxy.anchoragerescue.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Built new sources yesterday and now I'm getting the following when i su: pam_rootok: pam_sm_authenticate: Refused; not superuser My etc files are current and it doesn't affect login, but I thought I would pass it along. Beech -- Micro$oft: "Where can we make you go today?" ------------------------------------------------------------------- Beech Rintoul - IT Manager - Instructor - akbeech@anchoragerescue.org /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Anchorage Gospel Rescue Mission \ / - NO HTML/RTF in e-mail | P.O. Box 230510 X - NO Word docs in e-mail | Anchorage, AK 99523-0510 / \ ----------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 18:12:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from zircon.seattle.wa.us (sense-sea-CovadSub-0-228.oz.net [216.39.147.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 28C4C37B40B for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:12:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@zircon.seattle.wa.us) Received: (qmail 7882 invoked by uid 1001); 13 Aug 2001 01:15:40 -0000 From: Joe Kelsey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15223.10812.286362.192448@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:15:40 -0700 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach In-Reply-To: <200108130044.f7D0igW03766@harmony.village.org> References: <15222.50892.75406.972475@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <200108130044.f7D0igW03766@harmony.village.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under Emacs 20.7.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh writes: > In message <15222.50892.75406.972475@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Joe Kelsey writes: > : I also second Terry's comment about 0x800. There is no reason to add > : yet more driver flags in order to "do the right thing". The "do the > : right thing" case should always be default and a flag (sysctl variable, > : etc) should be used for those who want "the wrong thing". > > The main reason that it wasn't added at the time was that it was > expensive in terms of CPU utilization, so it shouldn't be on by > default. There may be other reasons as well... Please explain the reference to "expensive in terms of CPU utilization". I have currently turned this code on by default (simply removed the if blocking and the hack comment) so that it always does the log message followed by the disable/enable calls. So far, where I used to see thousands of "out of sync" messages, I now have seen exactly one "out of sync" message followed by the "re-enable" message. I cannot see how a single disable/enable call at the first mouse motion can cause massive CPU utilization problems. But then again, maybe I am thinking wrong? Please explain this. Do you expect to be resetting the mouse thousands of times per second? It is an error condition. The default must be to fix the errors. As soon as someone reports that the fix is being executed thousands of times per second on their broken hardware, then we can implement the opposite flag to disable the fix in those pathological cases where it causes a problem. Again, all I am asking is for someone to explain why they make a design decision. The comment in the psm.c file about a "hack" is extremely unhelpful. Why did the coder think it was a "hack" solution? What were the pros and cons that went into that decision. Was there a discussion on -current about it that I missed? If there was a discussion and a conclusion was reached, the proper thing to do is to insert documentation into the code to explain the design decisions that were made. If you don't document the design in the code, it will be forgotton, as there is no other place to document it in FreeBSD. /Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 18:15:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp015.mail.yahoo.com (smtp015.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D939B37B405 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:15:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2001 01:15:17 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B772A23.4000909@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:15:15 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gordon Tetlow Cc: Joseph Mallett , Wes Peters , Jason Vervlied , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gordon Tetlow wrote: > As a preface to this whole thing, I find it higly amusing that you are > sending this mail from a Linux box. Of course, for that matter, so am I. > (I'm planning on changing that soon.) Excuse me? FreeBSD wahoo.kc.rr.com 5.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #18: Fri Aug 10 16:51:25 CDT 2001 jbryant@wahoo.kc.rr.com:/usr/src/sys/i386/compile/WAHOO i386 When Netscape comes out with support for FreeBSD again, I'll run native, until then, I, like everyone else using freebsd am stuck using netscape in the COMPATLINUX construct. Please don't make assumptions about an operating environment without understanding the problems of living within that environment. > > On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Jim Bryant wrote: > > >>I said I'd drop it, but apparently there are people that don't >>understand the dinosaur mentality of certain organizations such as >>DOD, DISA/DECC, OSD, DARPA, USA, USN, USAF, and USMC. >> >>If it's not in the base setup, on a production box, you can't use it. >>Everything must be kept in it's ORIGINAL install location, otherwise >>you MUST justify it and ask DISA/DECC for a waiver, which in itself, >>is a pain in the ass, and in many cases, not likely to happen due to >>dinosaur mentality. >> > > You said it yourself. They are a dinosaur. Why should be drag ourselves > back to the paleolithic and cater to a very specific problem in our base > tree? bash is a nice shell. I use it as my normal shell, but when I drop > to single user mode, I *always* end up using /bin/sh. I'm not a fan of csh > (tcsh isn't bad though) and I only write shell scripts in /bin/sh. > Besides, how often do you need to drop to single user mode and *really* > need bash? I'm not arguing for bash. I despise bash in fact. When I drop to single-user, I want to be in and out. That means I want the tools to do the job most efficiently so I can be in and out. I'm personally a tcsh fan, but shells are a matter of preference and proficiency. What can take ten minutes in the bourne shell may only take me five using the shell of my choice. IMHO, the real dinosaur mentality I see at this moment is opposition to a very trivial request, that even the real dinosaurs int he unix industry [the Suns, HPs, IBMs, SGIs, etc] are seeing must be done because of end-user complaints and requests. Also, dinosaurs or not, DOD is now an INVESTOR in the FreeBSD system. Name any other group besides maybe BSDI that has provided $1.4 million [USD] to the project. We should look towards making FreeBSD the open-source OS of choice in the DOD environment, in which Linux has already made major inroads where FreeBSD isn't even allowed to tread yet. >>I now refer you to the recent news concerning the TrustedBSD project. >> >>FreeBSD is getting military contracts now. We need to think ahead to >>the needs of a whole new class of admin and user, and they are in >>highly restrictive environments that preclude `mv /usr/local/bin/*sh >>/bin`. >> > > And those people that are working there are probably programming in COBOL > and Fortran. More likely C, C++, and Java. Maybe a bit of stuff ported to GNAT. > >>I'm sure there are equally restrictive environments for computers and >>operating systems in *EVERY* country, but I speak from my personal >>experience with the dinosaurs at DOD. At DOD, *EVERY* copy of FreeBSD >>will be subject to what I am saying. In the Sun environment in which >>I did my last DOD contract at, if tcsh wasn't in /bin, I wouldn't have >>been able to use it. That's how backwards they are. >> >>In answer to your statement, some admins can be fired, even arrested >>and brought up on charges for doing what you suggest. I'm certain >>that this happens in countries other than America as well. >> > > Again, this is a problem for you and the DOD to sort out. It should be of > no concern to the project. Actually, it is up to us to resolve this. I don't think you understand how DOD operates. The vendor makes the changes, not DOD. Not the admin. Another priority item should be making sure we are compatible with such things as the latest versions of Oracle, etc... This is an area in which we can compete head-to-head with the high-dollar stuff. Also, I havn't worked for DOD in a long time, but I have done recent contracts with them, and understand firsthand the BS involved in having to do without tools all unix people, including myself, consider standard, that are not allowed because it's not part of the base install. Moving the non-GPL shells to /bin is a trivial request that can solve problems that you obviously don't understand. DOD will is a vast new market for FreeBSD, and if we don't think ahead now and consider what will make admins recommend FreeBSD over Linux, Solaris, or HP-UX, then we'll never reach the kind of market penetration that Linux, Solaris, and HP-UX have in the DOD market. Key to this is an admin-friendly environment designed to get around the pre-cambrian attitudes that prevent DOD admins from using standard tools just because it's in the wrong place on the disk array or because it's considered a third-party option, or even worse: freeware [ooooh! step away from the keyboard, son. you going to prison, boy!]. DOD is only an example of an organization that can benefit from such a trivial change. They can already get this with Sun, and probably HP as well [I haven't seen the latest minor release to 11.x, but I bet they are following Sun's lead]. Try thinking outside the box sometime. If you want a "traditional" unix, I think there is still a PDP-11 emulator and DL01 image of V7 at gatekeeper.dec.com. I'm more for an evolutionary unix where the idea of what's standard changes to reflect the needs of it's admins and users in diverse environments. I may not be one of the big movers, but I think this is why I do what I can to help out with -CURRENT, to move forwards meeting the needs, instead of going nowhere due to outdated beliefs "oh, but that belongs in /usr/local/bin". If something after years of use becomes a standard tool, it needs to be moved into the base distribution. I give perl as a prime example of one time that this actually happened, despite the arguments for or against perl, it *IS* a standard tool, and it *IS* expected to be available. My argument for the trivial move of the non-GPL shells to /bin, so long as they are statically linked, is based on experience in a market in which FreeBSD just got it's foot inside of the door. We have already done this with tcsh. I don't see what the problem is getting the rest of the non-GPL shells into /bin is. Of course, if my argument is somehow bad, then we do have a real dilemma here. Better remove tcsh from /bin at once to clear up this dilemma! As I recall the Carnagie-Mellon University tcsh wasn't in the original BSD or USG implementation of Unix! Can't be cluttering up the tree now, get it outta there! [see how many admins, including myself, like that suggestion, after they fought so hard to get it in]. I recall posting a similar message to this list or -hackers back in '94 or '95 to get tcsh into /bin, I also remember people making the same argument as you back then. I may be wrong, but I think I even recall Terry saying it'd be a bad idea. How about an instant poll: 1). Since tcsh was included as a "standard" tool in /bin, do you use it in a standalone scenario? a). Yes b). No 2). Since tcsh was included as a "standard" tool in /bin, is it root's default shell? a). Yes b). No jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 18:31:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2DE737B40B for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:31:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id f7D1Vbf45672; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:31:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:31:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Beech Rintoul Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Error Msg on su In-Reply-To: <01081217082900.05914@galaxy.anchoragerescue.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yeah, I've been seeing that also with recent -CURRENT. /etc is in sync with /usr/src/etc. Doesn't seem to prevent normal functioning, but isn't encouraging. Looks like rootok needs to not whine when not running as root? Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Beech Rintoul wrote: > Built new sources yesterday and now I'm getting the following when i su: > > pam_rootok: pam_sm_authenticate: Refused; not superuser > > My etc files are current and it doesn't affect login, but I thought I would > pass it along. > > Beech > -- > Micro$oft: "Where can we make you go today?" > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Beech Rintoul - IT Manager - Instructor - akbeech@anchoragerescue.org > /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Anchorage Gospel Rescue Mission > \ / - NO HTML/RTF in e-mail | P.O. Box 230510 > X - NO Word docs in e-mail | Anchorage, AK 99523-0510 > / \ ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 19: 7:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts14.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3AF137B407 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 19:07:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anarcat@anarcat.dyndns.org) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.92.160.228]) by tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20010813020744.ZXRY24413.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 22:07:44 -0400 Received: from shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (shall.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.1]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3CB818CF; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 22:07:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B9DE720AF2; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 22:08:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 22:08:40 -0400 From: The Anarcat To: Jim Bryant Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? Message-ID: <20010812220839.A1817@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> References: <3B772A23.4000909@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3B772A23.4000909@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.20i Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [This email contains coarse language due to the absurdity of the thread level we're in. My apologies to those offended. Also, my apologies to the author of the original mail. You have triggered very sensitive areas of my mind. :)] [This probably belongs to -chat, -flame (we should create that one) or IRC, anyways] On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Jim Bryant wrote: > Also, dinosaurs or not, DOD is now an INVESTOR in the FreeBSD system. Na= me=20 > any other group besides maybe BSDI that has provided $1.4 million [USD] t= o=20 > the project. > > We should look towards making FreeBSD the open-source OS of choice in the= =20 > DOD environment, in which Linux has already made major inroads where Free= BSD=20 > isn't even allowed to tread yet. I do not agree with that statement. We should not distort FreeBSD's vision to fit what a few people believe to be DOD wishes. Even if it would be the DODs wishes, I say: fuck the DOD. Fuck the army. FreeBSD is a Free project. We don't have to comply to some freakin military. > Actually, it is up to us to resolve this. I don't think you understand h= ow=20 > DOD operates. The vendor makes the changes, not DOD. Not the admin. =20 And FreeBSD is the *vendor*? I don't think so. At least I don't hope so. If I'm mistaken, slap me, but the project should not bend over for any big guy who pulls out enough money. I know this will sound ridiculous, but what if Mucrosoft put 1M$ in FBSD? Would we fucking bend over? I hope not. > Moving the non-GPL shells to /bin is a trivial request that can solve=20 > problems that you obviously don't understand. Then we could also answer a trivial request such as making apache part of the base system! If the DOD need a webserver, they're screwed? They panic? What the heck is that? And why should we care about such d**kheads? > DOD will is a vast new market for FreeBSD, and if we don't think ahead no= w=20 > and consider what will make admins recommend FreeBSD over Linux, Solaris,= or=20 > HP-UX, then we'll never reach the kind of market penetration that Linux,= =20 > Solaris, and HP-UX have in the DOD market.=20 Saying: "the military uses our sw, you should use it too" should make admins use the sw? What a sick world we're in. Wasn't the DOD using NT? > Key to this is an admin-friendly=20 > environment designed to get around the pre-cambrian attitudes that preven= t=20 > DOD admins from using standard tools just because it's in the wrong place= on=20 > the disk array or because it's considered a third-party option, or even= =20 > worse: freeware [ooooh! step away from the keyboard, son. you going to= =20 > prison, boy!]. Bash standard? Funny. I had very good comments on the easiness (sp?) ppl have installing third party apps in the install process. And the ports collection, and the packages, etc... FreeBSD is very admin friendly, IMHO. > DOD is only an example of an organization that can benefit from such a=20 > trivial change. They can already get this with Sun, and probably HP as w= ell=20 > [I haven't seen the latest minor release to 11.x, but I bet they are=20 > following Sun's lead]. I don't give a flying fluck about the DOD, they can go blow themselves up on freakin Mars. Seriously. > Try thinking outside the box sometime. If you want a "traditional" unix,= I=20 > think there is still a PDP-11 emulator and DL01 image of V7 at=20 > gatekeeper.dec.com. Yeah. Let's go with the New Technology: NT. All these buzzwords and semantics are messing things up here. It's not a matter of tradition, it's a matter of license (bash is GPL, FBSD is BSD-licensed), and functionality (bash !=3D sh). See also the comment about resistance to have perl in the base system.=20 Linux have bash in the base system simply because there's no other free clo= se relative to sh around. > I'm more for an evolutionary unix where the idea of what's standard chang= es=20 > to reflect the needs of it's admins and users in diverse environments. As much as I appreciate "evolution", I think this mentality is exactly the thing that makes us pull away from support from old hardware. That's a shame. > going nowhere due to outdated beliefs "oh, but that belongs in=20 > /usr/local/bin".=20 Again, it's not a belief. It's a philosophy that is behind FreeBSD.=20 I would actually like to get *more* stuff out of the base system. Small is beautiful. We could probably include about 10 other shells in /bin just on the grounds that it's "standard" or "useful". > If something after years of use becomes a standard tool,=20 > it needs to be moved into the base distribution. I give perl as a prime= =20 > example of one time that this actually happened, despite the arguments fo= r=20 > or against perl, it *IS* a standard tool, and it *IS* expected to be=20 > available. Perl might be a standard tool (again, a funny thought) but being "available" does not necessarly mean to have it in the base system. Anyways, this has probably been burnt to death long time ago, I should not get into this. > My argument for the trivial move of the non-GPL shells to /bin, so long a= s=20 > they are statically linked, is based on experience in a market in which= =20 > FreeBSD just got it's foot inside of the door. We have already done this= =20 > with tcsh. I don't see what the problem is getting the rest of the non-G= PL=20 > shells into /bin is. I missed something here. Is tcsh GPLed? I don't think so... A quick look at /usr/src/contrib/tcsh gives me 2 matches for "GNU", config.guess and config.sub. The rest looks like standard BSD license. Am I wrong? > Of course, if my argument is somehow bad, then we do have a real dilemma= =20 > here. Better remove tcsh from /bin at once to clear up this dilemma!=20 Er... Why not? Screw csh/tcsh. I never minded installing tcsh using ports/packages when I used it.=20 > How about an instant poll: >=20 > 1). Since tcsh was included as a "standard" tool in /bin, do you use it i= n a=20 > standalone scenario? > b). No =20 Actually, a standalone scenario for me resloves to single-user mode. And in that case, /bin/sh is ran. And it's what I use. For everything else I can just exec bash or zsh. :) > 2). Since tcsh was included as a "standard" tool in /bin, is it root's=20 > default shell? >=20 > a). Yes This is hardly arguable. Just check /usr/src/etc/master.passwd :) =20 > jim Please, jim, do not take my comments too harsh. I have a very strong... opinion of the military, and of "progress", "evolution" or whatever you want to call that mad "fuite en avant" (I don't know the proper idiom in english (this was french)). Have a nice day. A. --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Pour information voir http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7dzam7uV99pHLOSIRAq5CAKCgFe8tsyQZhF5WPYnTLFnjn9ewswCfSs0s AndhXbKBMlVrTxgL1awpc1s= =ACm3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 19:11:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36B0537B40A for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 19:11:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7D2BTq02204; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:11:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7D2BSW04119; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:11:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200108130211.f7D2BSW04119@harmony.village.org> To: Joe Kelsey Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:15:40 PDT." <15223.10812.286362.192448@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> References: <15223.10812.286362.192448@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> <15222.50892.75406.972475@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <200108130044.f7D0igW03766@harmony.village.org> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:11:28 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <15223.10812.286362.192448@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Joe Kelsey writes: : Warner Losh writes: : > In message <15222.50892.75406.972475@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Joe Kelsey writes: : > : I also second Terry's comment about 0x800. There is no reason to add : > : yet more driver flags in order to "do the right thing". The "do the : > : right thing" case should always be default and a flag (sysctl variable, : > : etc) should be used for those who want "the wrong thing". : > : > The main reason that it wasn't added at the time was that it was : > expensive in terms of CPU utilization, so it shouldn't be on by : > default. There may be other reasons as well... : : Please explain the reference to "expensive in terms of CPU : utilization". I have currently turned this code on by default (simply : removed the if blocking and the hack comment) so that it always does the : log message followed by the disable/enable calls. So far, where I used : to see thousands of "out of sync" messages, I now have seen exactly one : "out of sync" message followed by the "re-enable" message. I cannot see : how a single disable/enable call at the first mouse motion can cause : massive CPU utilization problems. But then again, maybe I am thinking : wrong? That's what I was told when I asked to make it default. The enable/disable routines were, at least at the time, somewhat expensive because they did things to the mouse port at 1uS per transaction and there were lots of transactions. : Please explain this. Do you expect to be resetting the mouse thousands : of times per second? It is an error condition. The default must be to : fix the errors. As soon as someone reports that the fix is being : executed thousands of times per second on their broken hardware, then we : can implement the opposite flag to disable the fix in those pathological : cases where it causes a problem. It is possible, i believe, to have patholigical cases where resetting the mouse would cause another out of sync, which would cause another reset, which would cause another out of sync, etc. This would result in a hung system, for all intents and purposes. That's why it isn't enabled by default. At least that's my dim recollection of the mail I had with yokota-san, that may have been private. : Again, all I am asking is for someone to explain why they make a design : decision. The comment in the psm.c file about a "hack" is extremely : unhelpful. Why did the coder think it was a "hack" solution? What were : the pros and cons that went into that decision. Was there a discussion : on -current about it that I missed? If there was a discussion and a : conclusion was reached, the proper thing to do is to insert : documentation into the code to explain the design decisions that were : made. If you don't document the design in the code, it will be : forgotton, as there is no other place to document it in FreeBSD. Sometimes things don't get documented. That's the nature of the beast. A word about tone. If you were to get as in my face about, say, pccard, as you about the psm driver, I'd certainly be ill inclined to provide you with what you want. Good Tone: Say Warner, why do you bother turning off the power after you suspend a socket. Shouldn't the power routines take care of that? Is there something subtle that's going on? Maybe a comment is in order? Bad Tone: Please explain the pros and cons for turning the power off after suspending a socket. I really want to know. Why did they do this? Didn't the coder trust the power routines? The least he could have done was include a comment. Was there some long discussion that I missed? See the difference? The first tone is friendly, suggesting that something in the code might be unclear. The second seems to imply that I'm a moron for not documenting every trivial solution with a 20 page thesis on why it is good or bad to do. Also, sometimes you have to know when to give a point a rest. Hammering this again so soon after yakota-san sent out his long, very well written message that said he was going on a business trip and would be out of touch isn't going to have the results you expected. He'll get back from his trip and will likely be swamped. That's the worst time to hit someone with a "hey, can you document this more" message. Warner P.S. The answer is that we don't power off before that point and if we fail to power it off, the card will continue to draw power while suspended and can cause machine hangs when the machine is resumed. A careful tracing of the code shows that no power down commands are issued in the disable path. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 19:36:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from pc-62-31-80-67-ll.blueyonder.co.uk (pc-62-31-80-67-ll.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.80.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7648537B403 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 19:36:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@pc-62-31-80-67-ll.blueyonder.co.uk) Received: (qmail 1139 invoked by uid 1001); 13 Aug 2001 02:36:18 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Andrew Boothman To: The Anarcat Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 03:36:18 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: current@freebsd.org References: <3B772A23.4000909@yahoo.com> <20010812220839.A1817@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> In-Reply-To: <20010812220839.A1817@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01081303361802.00390@spatula.home> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday 13 August 2001 3:08 am, The Anarcat wrote: > [This email contains coarse language due to the absurdity of the thread > level we're in. My apologies to those offended. Also, my apologies to > the author of the original mail. You have triggered very sensitive areas > of my mind. :)] Swearing adds absolutely nothing to your argument, you've devalued your own opinion by giving the impression you're incapable of expressing yourself without resorting to swearing. I personally got sick of it a short way down and gave up reading. -- Andrew Boothman http://sour.cream.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 19:47:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from zircon.seattle.wa.us (sense-sea-CovadSub-0-228.oz.net [216.39.147.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7E11F37B40E for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 19:47:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@zircon.seattle.wa.us) Received: (qmail 8148 invoked by uid 1001); 13 Aug 2001 02:51:05 -0000 From: Joe Kelsey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15223.16537.621443.350921@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 19:51:05 -0700 To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Documentation in FreeBSD X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under Emacs 20.7.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG OK, so we have beaten the psm and keyboard code to death. The entire point that I have been trying to make in this discussion is that it is imperative to document design decisions somewhere that is likely to survive changes in maintainer. I have been working as an administrator and programmer for many years. In that time, it has become quite clear to me that the largest effort in any multi-year, multi-person programming effort is documenting what you do in order that those that follow you (or even yourself, several years hence) can figure out what you did and why you did it. The most clever hack that you implement becomes the most obscure, opaque code if you only instrument it with cryptic one-lin comments. I am not speaking against anyone who has put effort into writing and maintaining the excellent code that is FreeBSD. I appreciate the code and all of the effort it represents. However, the constant clamor of the denizens of this list who constantly har "if you don't like it, submit a patch" is extremely annoying. You cannot submit a patch to opaque code without expending massive amounts of effort to figure out the opacity. Please, all I am asking for is that, if there is any long dicsussion about the pros and cons of some design decision, the person responsible for maintaining the code in question should also be responsible for immortalizing the discussion in the code. Either simply copy the most relevant e-mail into a comment or summarize the comments, with, perhaps, a pointer to the e-mail subject line of the discussion to make searching the archives easier on those who follow. What I am pleading for is nothing more than any commercial software house requires of its programmers. Document the design in order that maintainence is easier. Personally, I prefer to use literate programming techniques for this, but that is not possible for many OS functions. Certainly, we could adopt some sort of standard practice to embed design comments in the code. I personally prefer to over-comment as it is hard to determine exactly what someone needs 5 years from now to fix a problem. Of course, illiterate comments can sometimes be worse than no comment, but that is a discussion for another forum. There is a lot of good discussion that goes on on this and other lists that needs to somehow make it into the code or into a separate documentation area (section 4 pages? info docs? articles?) /Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 20: 7:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gnf.org (firewall.gnf.org [208.44.31.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19B3C37B40A for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:07:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gordont@gnf.org) Received: by mail.gnf.org (Postfix, from userid 888) id A00F011E504; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.gnf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EBB111A56A; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:07:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Gordon Tetlow To: Warner Losh Cc: Joe Kelsey , Subject: Netiquette (Was: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach) In-Reply-To: <200108130211.f7D2BSW04119@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Warner Losh wrote: > A word about tone. If you were to get as in my face about, say, > pccard, as you about the psm driver, I'd certainly be ill inclined to > provide you with what you want. > > Good Tone: > Say Warner, why do you bother turning off the power after > you suspend a socket. Shouldn't the power routines take care > of that? Is there something subtle that's going on? Maybe a > comment is in order? > > Bad Tone: > Please explain the pros and cons for turning the power off > after suspending a socket. I really want to know. Why did > they do this? Didn't the coder trust the power routines? The > least he could have done was include a comment. Was there > some long discussion that I missed? > > See the difference? The first tone is friendly, suggesting that > something in the code might be unclear. The second seems to imply > that I'm a moron for not documenting every trivial solution with a 20 > page thesis on why it is good or bad to do. This is such a great example of how tone can come across poorly in a text medium. I doubt (hope) that Joe didn't mean to come across as that. But tone in email is so often inferred based on the readers own moods, that phrasing email becomes much more important so as to not give the reader the wrong impression. This should be required reading for anyone considering posting to a FreeBSD mailing list. -gordon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 20:37:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from zircon.seattle.wa.us (sense-sea-CovadSub-0-228.oz.net [216.39.147.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2A7BA37B408 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:37:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@zircon.seattle.wa.us) Received: (qmail 8248 invoked by uid 1001); 13 Aug 2001 03:40:53 -0000 From: Joe Kelsey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15223.19525.421003.634900@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:40:53 -0700 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: "Good" Tone vs. "Bad" tone In-Reply-To: <200108130211.f7D2BSW04119@harmony.village.org> References: <15223.10812.286362.192448@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> <15222.50892.75406.972475@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <200108130044.f7D0igW03766@harmony.village.org> <200108130211.f7D2BSW04119@harmony.village.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under Emacs 20.7.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh writes: > Good Tone: > Say Warner, why do you bother turning off the power after > you suspend a socket. Shouldn't the power routines take care > of that? Is there something subtle that's going on? Maybe a > comment is in order? > > Bad Tone: > Please explain the pros and cons for turning the power off > after suspending a socket. I really want to know. Why did > they do this? Didn't the coder trust the power routines? The > least he could have done was include a comment. Was there > some long discussion that I missed? > > See the difference? The first tone is friendly, suggesting that > something in the code might be unclear. The second seems to imply > that I'm a moron for not documenting every trivial solution with a 20 > page thesis on why it is good or bad to do. I am sorry if you interpreted my message as implying that you are a bad coder or even a moron. I was not thinking either when I wrote it. However, I do not think your example is a good one in explaining good versus bad tone. I am sorry if my opinion offends you. You do excellent work on FreeBSd, as everyone else I have ever encountered who spends so much time improving the code base also does excellent work. I am trying to make a point about documentation and its role in helping to move forward a public-participation project such as FreeBSD. Terry was trying to make a similar point inhis "Go SOLO 2" posts about the man pages. Anyone who wants to help out is met by several road blocks. First, there is a severe problem with understanding the existing code base. This problem is common in most commercial software projects, although most companies make some effort at documenting the design, at least initially. Documenting changes to the design is a real effort. I am personally a fan of tying the design documentation and code closely together through design commentary in the code, preferably using Literate Programming techniques. Then, there is simply the problem of written communication not being semantically expressive enough (lack of "tone" to express emotion, and emoticons do not do a very good job here, ;-)). It is easy to become intimidated or to inadvertently intimidate others through this medium of e-mail. These roadblocks tend to get worse with the barrage of posters who simply keep shouting "send patches". You cannot patch what you don't understand and you cannot understand what is not documented. Yes, if, indeed, the disable/enable pair is time consuming, then it should be protected by code that tries to make sure it is not called repeatedly. The simplest solution is a flag or counter to prevent recursive calls. Also, a timer can prevent calling it in rapid succession. If I can understand the reasons for the cryptic "XXX" "hack" comment, I can formulate alternate proposals for potential solutions. I certainly want to be a constructive member of the community, if at all possible. Right now I am just trying to learn and point out the road blocks as I encounter them. If someone chooses to perceive my documentation of my path to enlightenment as criticism of themselves, that is not my point, and I am sorry that you take it as a personal critique. Enough rampling for now. /Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 20:42:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B1C137B406 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:42:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7D3gLo08457; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:42:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:42:21 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Joe Kelsey Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Documentation in FreeBSD Message-ID: <20010812204221.A8432@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <15223.16537.621443.350921@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15223.16537.621443.350921@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us>; from joe@zircon.seattle.wa.us on Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 07:51:05PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 07:51:05PM -0700, Joe Kelsey wrote: > OK, so we have beaten the psm and keyboard code to death. The entire > point that I have been trying to make in this discussion is that it is > imperative to document design decisions somewhere that is likely to > survive changes in maintainer. ... > What I am pleading for is nothing more than any commercial software > house requires of its programmers. And *PAYS* its programmers to do. This is the point you are missing. If you were to commercially sponsor some design docs, I'm sure we can get them written. > Certainly, we could adopt some sort of standard practice to > embed design comments in the code. I personally prefer to over-comment > as it is hard to determine exactly what someone needs 5 years from now > to fix a problem. Send patches. You wanted some of the PSM comments added to the code -- send a patch that adds the ones you think would have helped you. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 21:21: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gnf.org (firewall.gnf.org [208.44.31.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD5A37B406 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:21:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gordont@gnf.org) Received: by mail.gnf.org (Postfix, from userid 888) id CF8FC11E50A; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.gnf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC23311A56A; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:20:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Gordon Tetlow To: Jim Bryant Cc: Joseph Mallett , Wes Peters , Jason Vervlied , Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? In-Reply-To: <3B772A23.4000909@yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Not to be a pain, but can you wrap lines at a more standard 74 columns as opposed to whatever you are currently wrapping them at? Thanks. On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Jim Bryant wrote: > Gordon Tetlow wrote: > > > As a preface to this whole thing, I find it higly amusing that you are > > sending this mail from a Linux box. Of course, for that matter, so am I. > > (I'm planning on changing that soon.) > > > Excuse me? > > FreeBSD wahoo.kc.rr.com 5.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #18: Fri Aug 10 16:51:25 CDT 2001 > jbryant@wahoo.kc.rr.com:/usr/src/sys/i386/compile/WAHOO i386 > > When Netscape comes out with support for FreeBSD again, I'll run > native, until then, I, like everyone else using freebsd am stuck using > netscape in the COMPATLINUX construct. > > Please don't make assumptions about an operating environment without > understanding the problems of living within that environment. Ah, my apologies. It's much less amusing now. > Also, dinosaurs or not, DOD is now an INVESTOR in the FreeBSD system. > Name any other group besides maybe BSDI that has provided $1.4 million > [USD] to the project. Okay, I don't recall the FreeBSD Foundation getting $1.4 mil. I know that the DOD is sponsoring some TrustedBSD stuff, but where exactly is the money going? > We should look towards making FreeBSD the open-source OS of choice in > the DOD environment, in which Linux has already made major inroads > where FreeBSD isn't even allowed to tread yet. > > Actually, it is up to us to resolve this. I don't think you > understand how DOD operates. The vendor makes the changes, not DOD. > Not the admin. Again, I don't see why we should cater to one specific group of people and let them dictate the direction of the project. > Another priority item should be making sure we are compatible with > such things as the latest versions of Oracle, etc... This is an area > in which we can compete head-to-head with the high-dollar stuff. Well, considering that Oracle doesn't publish *anything* for FreeBSD, I doubt there is anything we can do about it. Veritas NetBackup has a FreeBSD client (no server). IBM DB2 has no FreeBSD support. Heck, as you point out Netscape doesn't even make FreeBSD binaries. And you know what? There's squat that the project can do about it. We can't make companies support FreeBSD if they don't want to spend the resources for it. > Also, I havn't worked for DOD in a long time, but I have done recent > contracts with them, and understand firsthand the BS involved in > having to do without tools all unix people, including myself, consider > standard, that are not allowed because it's not part of the base > install. > > Moving the non-GPL shells to /bin is a trivial request that can solve > problems that you obviously don't understand. Um, bash is GPL. The reason for not putting it in the base system is due to licensing restrictions. We try to use as few GPL'd pieces as possible. After seeing that grep is a GNU tool, I'm almost tempted to try writing a BSD-style grep for the fun/exercise of it. > DOD will is a vast new market for FreeBSD, and if we don't think ahead > now and consider what will make admins recommend FreeBSD over Linux, > Solaris, or HP-UX, then we'll never reach the kind of market > penetration that Linux, Solaris, and HP-UX have in the DOD market. > Key to this is an admin-friendly environment designed to get around > the pre-cambrian attitudes that prevent DOD admins from using standard > tools just because it's in the wrong place on the disk array or > because it's considered a third-party option, or even worse: freeware > [ooooh! step away from the keyboard, son. you going to prison, > boy!]. Read my lips (er text, whatever). Bash and other shells are not going to make it into the base FreeBSD OS. The increasing code base does worry me though. I'm not a big fan of adding more and more functionality to the "base." I like the very functional, very useful codebase that we currently have. You can do alot more with a base FreeBSD installation than you can with a base Solaris installation (like compile things). > I'm more for an evolutionary unix where the idea of what's standard > changes to reflect the needs of it's admins and users in diverse > environments. Then feel free to take FreeBSD, tweak it and publish it as DODBSD. By all means, the license lets you do it. > I may not be one of the big movers, but I think this is why I do what > I can to help out with -CURRENT, to move forwards meeting the needs, > instead of going nowhere due to outdated beliefs "oh, but that belongs > in /usr/local/bin". If something after years of use becomes a > standard tool, it needs to be moved into the base distribution. I > give perl as a prime example of one time that this actually happened, > despite the arguments for or against perl, it *IS* a standard tool, > and it *IS* expected to be available. And for 99.9999999% of the users, they could care less if it's in /usr/local or in / And for things that are not in the base system, they belong in /usr/local. That's the way it's done. If an organization installs a default install of *any* OS and doesn't make any local modifications, it's their own fault, not ours. I don't think there is a single box that I don't add some software too (well, except maybe a dedicated dns server). > Of course, if my argument is somehow bad, then we do have a real > dilemma here. Better remove tcsh from /bin at once to clear up this > dilemma! As I recall the Carnagie-Mellon University tcsh wasn't in > the original BSD or USG implementation of Unix! Can't be cluttering > up the tree now, get it outta there! [see how many admins, including > myself, like that suggestion, after they fought so hard to get it in]. > I recall posting a similar message to this list or -hackers back in > '94 or '95 to get tcsh into /bin, I also remember people making the > same argument as you back then. I may be wrong, but I think I even > recall Terry saying it'd be a bad idea. I think Terry still complains about it. There were alot of people that said how it broke POLA to switch csh to tcsh. The same reason why we will not (for the forseeable future (I hope)) go to using vim instead of nvi in the base os. Cheers, -gordon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 21:22:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gnf.org (firewall.gnf.org [208.44.31.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 585D637B406 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:22:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gordont@gnf.org) Received: by mail.gnf.org (Postfix, from userid 888) id 66CCA11E504; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.gnf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A2011A56A; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:22:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Gordon Tetlow To: Steve Kargl Cc: Jim Bryant , Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? In-Reply-To: <20010812172533.A88389@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Steve Kargl wrote: > On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 04:54:08PM -0700, Gordon Tetlow wrote: > > > FreeBSD is getting military contracts now. We need to think ahead to > > > the needs of a whole new class of admin and user, and they are in > > > highly restrictive environments that preclude `mv /usr/local/bin/*sh > > > /bin`. > > > > And those people that are working there are probably programming in COBOL > > and Fortran. > > > > Sigh. A stupid language war troll. You haven't looked at > the Fortran language since 1977 have you? I forgot to add around that. Actually, ADA would probably be more correct. I was born in 1978 btw. -gordon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 21:24:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDC3C37B40C for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7D4NtT09187; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:23:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:23:54 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Gordon Tetlow Cc: Jim Bryant , Joseph Mallett , Wes Peters , Jason Vervlied , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? Message-ID: <20010812212354.B8432@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3B772A23.4000909@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from gordont@gnf.org on Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 09:20:59PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 09:20:59PM -0700, Gordon Tetlow wrote: > After seeing that grep is a GNU tool, I'm almost tempted to try writing a > BSD-style grep for the fun/exercise of it. Rather than do that, continue the development of /usr/ports/textproc/freegrep, which was started for exactly the above reason. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 21:28:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2CAC37B409 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:28:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7D4S8t09257; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:28:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:28:08 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Jim Bryant Cc: Gordon Tetlow , Joseph Mallett , Wes Peters , Jason Vervlied , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? Message-ID: <20010812212808.C8432@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3B772A23.4000909@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B772A23.4000909@yahoo.com>; from kc5vdj@yahoo.com on Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 08:15:15PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 08:15:15PM -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: > Actually, it is up to us to resolve this. I don't think you understand > how DOD operates. The vendor makes the changes, not DOD. Not the > admin. Sigh. If an admin cannot handle /bin/sh long enough to get /usr mounted, they have no business being an admin. And Yes, I am a 100% bash user (I'm also the guy that brought you tcsh in the base system) Bash is my shell, and toor's shell. When I want bash single user, I answer the question of which shell with "/usr/local/bin/bash" as my / and /usr are the same (there! problem solved for the guy that started this thread). On machines I deal with that have seperate / and /usr, I take the default of /bin/sh and then do the: mount /usr /usr/local/bin/bash dance. Now that isn't such a hard dance now is it? I live it, it can be done. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 21:29:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDD7C37B408 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:29:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7D4Th509284; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:29:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:29:43 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: The Anarcat Cc: Jim Bryant , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? Message-ID: <20010812212943.D8432@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <3B772A23.4000909@yahoo.com> <20010812220839.A1817@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010812220839.A1817@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org>; from anarcat@anarcat.dyndns.org on Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 10:08:40PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 10:08:40PM -0400, The Anarcat wrote: > And FreeBSD is the *vendor*? I don't think so. At least I don't hope so. Actually we *are*. Seen those ISO's up on ftp.freebsd.org?? -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 21:36:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (dsl092-013-169.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E152437B403; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:36:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.5/8.11.1) id f7D4aeP09398; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:36:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:36:40 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Terry Lambert Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: _sigprocmask in malloc.c causes full file table? Message-ID: <20010812213640.E8432@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <66435.997574201@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> <3B75CD06.7E7BA39F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B75CD06.7E7BA39F@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:25:42PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:25:42PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > It's like trying to find something in hierachically organized > "GNU info" documentation: redundancy is useful, and try to > find "__PRETTY_FUNCTION__" in the "gcc" documentation, when > you need to read the man page carefully to find the "info" > reference, and then need to run the "info" program instead to > find the "real" documentation, and then either know emacs, or > linearly tree search through 37 documents (yes, I counted), to > find something that should be on the "cpp" man page. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The GCC developers want the manpages to die. If you like, I can just rm them. But I'm not going to write replacements. Fight this battle with the GCC developers, not FreeBSD people. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 21:50:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F8537B407 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:50:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08106; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 23:49:00 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 23:48:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Terry Lambert Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , Sean Kelly , Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach In-Reply-To: <3B7589A5.C2B1DE00@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 11 Aug 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > Finally, most keyboard/mouse/monitor switches don't work with > FreeBSD; for example, the Belkin console extender that uses the > ethernet cable doesn't work at all (it's the best one out there), I'm using a Cybex KVM-over-CAT5 extender with a cheap 4-port Belkin OmniCube KVM switch on one end (my desk) and a much more expensive 8-port dual-user Belkin (OmniView?) KVM switch on the other end (the server closet) attached to three FreeBSD servers and one NT box. I only use keyboard and video for the FreeBSD boxes, but that much has always worked perfectly. Occasionally I'll have mouse sync problems when I switch between FreeBSD and NT when the NT box has had difference mice (wheel vs. non-wheel MS mice, apparently) used on it via the dual-user KVM switch. NT seems to handle that case fairly well by resetting the PS/2 port and/or the mouse (not sure which) and redetecting the mouse type. FreeBSD doesn't like when NT has done that to the mouse, though, and spews sync errors when I switch back. Usually I can kill moused and restart it to fix the problem. > and the local wiring (non-ethernet version) of the Belkin OmniView > switches work if the FreeBSD mouse/keyboard is selected at boot > time, so that the aggressive probe/attach can satisfy itself. That is the KVM switch's fault, not FreeBSD's. On all but the most expensive KVM switches which offer true "keyboard and mouse emulation" on all ports, even NT (or actually the BIOS, I assume) can fail to enable keyboard and mouse support in that case. The dual-user Belkin OmniView seems to handle this correctly. I can't recall any problem booting FreeBSD on it even when its console isn't active. > Belkin went out of its way to support FreeBSD specifically, > actually: their firmware version 1.9 fixes the local wiring > switches, so that they can pass FreeBSD's aggressive probe, even > if the FreeBSD mouse/keyboard is _not_ selected. Hmm... I'll have to check, maybe thats why mine works. :-) -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet - Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures - IA64 (Itanium), PowerPC, and ARM architectures under development - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 22: 2:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from w250.z064001178.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net (w250.z064001178.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.178.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AAE9637B40A for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 22:02:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from josb@cncdsl.com) Received: (qmail 42879 invoked by uid 1000); 13 Aug 2001 05:03:12 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 22:02:50 -0700 From: Jos Backus To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? Message-ID: <20010812220250.A40561@lizzy.bugworks.com> Reply-To: Jos Backus Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3B772A23.4000909@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.20i Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 09:20:37PM -0700, Gordon Tetlow wrote: > After seeing that grep is a GNU tool, I'm almost tempted to try writing a > BSD-style grep for the fun/exercise of it. lizzy:/usr/ports/textproc/freegrep# cat pkg-descr This is an implementation of grep(1) intended as a replacement for FreeBSD's GNU grep. GNU grep falls under GPL, while this implementation is under a BSD-friendly licence. -- Jos Backus _/ _/_/_/ Santa Clara, CA _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ josb@cncdsl.com _/_/ _/_/_/ use Std::Disclaimer; To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 22:35:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.wanadoo.nl (smtp2.wanadoo.nl [194.134.35.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB9037B40D for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 22:35:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from steveo@eircom.net) Received: from ams-gw.sohara.org (p1308.vcu.wanadoo.nl [194.134.170.33]) by smtp.wanadoo.nl (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f7D5Z2j20538; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 07:35:02 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 07:34:51 +0200 From: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com Cc: jmallett@NewGold.NET, wes@softweyr.com, jvervlied@hway.net, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? Message-Id: <20010813073451.5b874e7e.steveo@eircom.net> In-Reply-To: <3B76FD51.40805@yahoo.com> References: <3B74D180.D036D629@hway.net> <3B75D33D.68368F22@softweyr.com> <3B764D47.6060902@yahoo.com> <20010812152709.A73284@NewGold.NET> <3B76FD51.40805@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.4.99cvs3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsdelf4.3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:04:01 -0500 Jim Bryant wrote: JB> I said I'd drop it, but apparently there are people that don't understand the dinosaur mentality of certain organizations such as JB> DOD, DISA/DECC, OSD, DARPA, USA, USN, USAF, and USMC. JB> JB> If it's not in the base setup, on a production box, you can't use it. Everything must be kept in it's ORIGINAL install location, Th obvious solution to this is a 'Military' switch in sysinstall that sets PREFIX to / for all ports. -- Directable Mirrors - A Better Way To Focus The Sun http://www.best.com/~sohara To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 12 23:35:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40FBC37B409 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 23:35:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA26062; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 00:35:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19172; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 00:35:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15223.29913.845087.208796@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 00:34:01 -0600 To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com Cc: Joseph Mallett , Wes Peters , Jason Vervlied , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? In-Reply-To: <3B76FD51.40805@yahoo.com> References: <3B74D180.D036D629@hway.net> <3B75D33D.68368F22@softweyr.com> <3B764D47.6060902@yahoo.com> <20010812152709.A73284@NewGold.NET> <3B76FD51.40805@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I said I'd drop it, but apparently there are people that don't > understand the dinosaur mentality of certain organizations such as > DOD, DISA/DECC, OSD, DARPA, USA, USN, USAF, and USMC. > If it's not in the base setup, on a production box, you can't use it. *Huh*???? This policy must have been implemented in the last 12 months, since the last big contract my previous company did with the USMC, we had a couple dozen Sun workstations, and I had all sorts of 'non-standard' software installed on it, including most of the GNU utilities, gzip, etc.... Prior to this contract, we did similar work for the Army and there were few restrictions to the software we wrote for them. > Everything must be kept in it's ORIGINAL install location, It's wherever the installation tools installed them into. In the case of the Solaris boxes, I think the stuff was all in /usr/local/bin, which suprised me because I was used to 'optional' software going in /opt/*/bin due to the packaging details that most pre-packaged 3rd party software I've gotten for Solaris boxes. > otherwise you MUST justify it and ask DISA/DECC for a waiver, which in > itself, is a pain in the ass, and in many cases, not likely to happen > due to dinosaur mentality. Again, as a former USMC/DOD contracter, this was *certainly* not the case. > FreeBSD is getting military contracts now. FreeBSD has been used in military contracts for *years* now. Maybe it wasn't as high-profile as the TrustedBSD work, but it's been in use by the Government for quite a long time (and in a state where the people involved had direct knowledge that FreeBSD was being used). > I'm sure there are equally restrictive environments for computers and > operating systems in *EVERY* country, but I speak from my personal > experience with the dinosaurs at DOD. At DOD, *EVERY* copy of FreeBSD > will be subject to what I am saying. In the Sun environment in which > I did my last DOD contract at, if tcsh wasn't in /bin, I wouldn't have > been able to use it. That's how backwards they are. Again, my suspicion is that you're dealing with some very weird folks at your installation. My experience was quite different, and involved some machines that were running hardened versions of Solaris on secret networks, although I was never allowed to use those machines once they were installed there. :) :) Things aren't as bad as you're experience might suggest.... Nate ps. Amazingly enough, the software we had to integrate with (being used by both branches) was *riddled* with remote exploit and DoS bugs, but unfortunately they could not be fixed and still stay 'compliant'. The protocol was set in stone (gotta stay compatible), and some of the DoS bugs were due to the incredibly stupid protocol being used. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 1: 5:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from neptune.he.net (neptune.he.net [216.218.166.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1F737B401; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 01:05:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robinson@netrinsics.com) Received: from netrinsics.com ([210.52.155.139] (may be forged)) by neptune.he.net (8.8.6/8.8.2) with ESMTP id BAA01533; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 01:05:40 -0700 Received: (from robinson@localhost) by netrinsics.com (8.11.2/8.11.1) id f7D7YUt00294; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 15:34:30 +0800 (+0800) (envelope-from robinson) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 15:34:30 +0800 From: Michael Robinson To: Daniel Eischen Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: _sigprocmask in malloc.c causes full file table? Message-ID: <20010813153430.A283@elephant.netrinsics.com> References: <20010812214608.A2701@elephant.netrinsics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from eischen@vigrid.com on Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 10:29:53AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 10:29:53AM -0400, Daniel Eischen wrote: > sigprocmask() behaves the same as pthread_sigmask(). pthread_sigmask() > needs to obtain the current thread. In obtaining the current thread, > the threads library must be initialized. In initializing the threads > library malloc() is called. Wash, rinse, repeat. We have a winner. This is the top of the (very long) call stack from the mozilla core file (which I admittedly should have examined earlier): #11913 0x2863ebda in _thread_init () from /usr/lib/libc_r.so.5 #11914 0x2863e7a3 in _get_curthread () from /usr/lib/libc_r.so.5 #11915 0x28633539 in pthread_sigmask () from /usr/lib/libc_r.so.5 #11916 0x2863f250 in sigprocmask () from /usr/lib/libc_r.so.5 #11917 0x286c9db5 in malloc () from /usr/lib/libc.so.5 #11918 0x2863a980 in _pq_alloc () from /usr/lib/libc_r.so.5 #11919 0x2863ebda in _thread_init () from /usr/lib/libc_r.so.5 #11920 0x2863e7a3 in _get_curthread () from /usr/lib/libc_r.so.5 #11921 0x28633539 in pthread_sigmask () from /usr/lib/libc_r.so.5 #11922 0x2863f250 in sigprocmask () from /usr/lib/libc_r.so.5 #11923 0x286c9db5 in malloc () from /usr/lib/libc.so.5 #11924 0x2863a980 in _pq_alloc () from /usr/lib/libc_r.so.5 #11925 0x2863ebda in _thread_init () from /usr/lib/libc_r.so.5 #11926 0x2863c063 in pthread_mutex_lock () from /usr/lib/libc_r.so.5 #11927 0x2861556d in __register_frame_info () from /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.3 #11928 0x28662fa2 in _init () from /usr/lib/libc.so.5 #11929 0x2866062d in _init () from /usr/lib/libc.so.5 #11930 0x2806de10 in _rtld () from /usr/libexec/ld-elf.so.1 So, in answer to the question, "am I doing something boneheaded, or is this an undocumented subtle interaction," I'll give partial credit to both. Thank you very much for your assistance. -Michael Robinson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 1: 7:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDDA837B401 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 01:07:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.29.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.29]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA28068; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 01:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B778AD2.34986D1F@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 01:07:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Evans Cc: John Polstra , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach References: <20010807234645.A573@edgemaster.zombie.org> <200108110828.RAA21659@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <3B7589A5.C2B1DE00@mindspring.com> <200108111954.f7BJscE19607@earth.backplane.com> <200108112004.f7BK47Q25932@vashon.polstra.com> <20010812142911.B81651@canonware.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jason Evans wrote: > I had the same problems, and took my KVM switch apart, expecting to find > the chips reversed. They were in fact installed correctly, so at least in > my case, the problem exists regardless. If I'm careful to have the KVM > switch on the same channel as a booting machine, and leave it on that > channel until the probing is done, everything seems to work fine. > Otherwise, the keyboard is not detected. See my other post; an upgrade to firmware version 1.9 will fix the problem. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 1:15:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81CCE37B401 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 01:15:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.29.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.29]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA08399; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 01:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B778CD0.1AAD0398@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 01:16:16 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams Cc: Jens Schweikhardt , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? References: <3B74D180.D036D629@hway.net> <3B75D33D.68368F22@softweyr.com> <3B764D47.6060902@yahoo.com> <3B76555B.891321BF@mindspring.com> <20010812125329.A1111@schweikhardt.net> <3B76C8C6.D7C0D639@mindspring.com> <15222.65411.958969.341986@nomad.yogotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nate Williams wrote: > Umm, Terry. There was no 'free' tar. Back in the 386BSD days, when we > were looking for a free tar, I contacted Andy Tanenbaum (of Minix) and > got permission to use it, since we didn't have one. However, it was > voted down as being 'too simple', so we opted for the GNU one. > > There isn't a BSD or public domain version of tar anywhere to be found, > unless you consider 'pax' running in tar emulation mode acceptable. (I > certainly don't.) I was just going to say "pax"... The "tar" program is really trivial to write: it's user space code, and you can run all sorts of fancy debug tools on it, and get a nice core dump to post mortem when it falls over, if you don't want to run it in a source level debugger, which will tell you the precise line of code the failure occurred on. In general, user space code is at least an order of magnitude easier to write. 8-). In any case, what don't you like about pax, other than "it's not GNU tar"? > The same story exists with grep. That's actually not true; there are three different implemetnations of the Boyer-Moore algorithm based "grep" tools in the comp.unix.sources archives. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 2: 1:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp010.mail.yahoo.com (smtp010.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7E2D137B407 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:01:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2001 09:01:09 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B779756.5010707@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 04:01:10 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Anarcat Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? References: <3B772A23.4000909@yahoo.com> <20010812220839.A1817@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The Anarcat wrote: [Foul-mouthed anti-gummint drivel deleted] >>Actually, it is up to us to resolve this. I don't think you understand how >>DOD operates. The vendor makes the changes, not DOD. Not the admin. >> > > And FreeBSD is the *vendor*? I don't think so. At least I don't hope so. > If I'm mistaken, slap me Consider yourself slapped. The FreeBSD project is the only DOD-approved vendor of FreeBSD. Until the core team says otherwise. >>Moving the non-GPL shells to /bin is a trivial request that can solve >>problems that you obviously don't understand. >> > > Then we could also answer a trivial request such as making apache part > of the base system! If the DOD need a webserver, they're screwed? They > panic? What the heck is that? And why should we care about such > d**kheads? No, they aren't screwed. They don't panic. They simply say "screw FreeBSD" and just call Sun, which does have Apache in the base distribution, as well as the shells where the admin is allowed to use them, and doesn't give them a bunch of anti-gummint drivel. > Wasn't the DOD using NT? Not for anything serious. >>Key to this is an admin-friendly >>environment designed to get around the pre-cambrian attitudes that prevent >>DOD admins from using standard tools just because it's in the wrong place on >>the disk array or because it's considered a third-party option, or even >>worse: freeware [ooooh! step away from the keyboard, son. you going to >>prison, boy!]. >> > > Bash standard? Funny. How many users of FreeBSD? How many users of Linux? How many people using csh? How many people using bash? Besides the fact that you don't reason well, you don't read too well. bash is GPL, it wouldn't qualify for the tree. zsh is open, and has the features of bash, and could probably be a good substitute. The proposition here doesn't involve any specific shell, it's a usability issue. > I had very good comments on the easiness (sp?) ppl have installing > third party apps in the install process. And the ports collection, and > the packages, etc... FreeBSD is very admin friendly, IMHO. Only when the admin has the ability to install third-party standard tools. >>Try thinking outside the box sometime. If you want a "traditional" unix, I >>think there is still a PDP-11 emulator and DL01 image of V7 at >>gatekeeper.dec.com. >> > > Yeah. Let's go with the New Technology: NT. All these buzzwords and > semantics are messing things up here. It's not a matter of tradition, > it's a matter of license (bash is GPL, FBSD is BSD-licensed), and > functionality (bash != sh). See also the comment about resistance to > have perl in the base system. perl is in the base system. and again, you don't read too well, i haven't said a nice word in this entire thread about bash, and others have noted the GPL. > Linux have bash in the base system simply because there's no other free close > relative to sh around. that was a rather inane statement... ever read the BSD license? >>I'm more for an evolutionary unix where the idea of what's standard changes >>to reflect the needs of it's admins and users in diverse environments. >> > > As much as I appreciate "evolution", I think this mentality is exactly > the thing that makes us pull away from support from old hardware. That's > a shame. how does moving defacto-standard userland items into the basic system effect the kernel? you lost me there. >>going nowhere due to outdated beliefs "oh, but that belongs in >>/usr/local/bin". >> > > Again, it's not a belief. It's a philosophy that is behind FreeBSD. a belief that keeps freebsd out of some hardcore, high-dollar markets. > Anyways, this has probably been burnt to death long time ago, I should > not get into this. Yes, and I think you should close and wipe your mouth after your foul-mouthed anti-gummint spewing. Flys are gathering around your tooth. >>My argument for the trivial move of the non-GPL shells to /bin, so long as >>they are statically linked, is based on experience in a market in which >>FreeBSD just got it's foot inside of the door. We have already done this >>with tcsh. I don't see what the problem is getting the rest of the non-GPL >>shells into /bin is. >> > > I missed something here. Is tcsh GPLed? I don't think so... A quick look > at /usr/src/contrib/tcsh gives me 2 matches for "GNU", config.guess and > config.sub. The rest looks like standard BSD license. Am I wrong? 2:19:01am wahoo(2): where tcsh /bin/tcsh Hey Jethro, who put that there? did you? wasn't me! Maybe it was one of dem damned gummint black heeleechoppers being piloted by ET and Bill Clinton... > Please, jim, do not take my comments too harsh. I have a very strong... > opinion of the military, and of "progress", "evolution" or whatever you > want to call that mad "fuite en avant" (I don't know the proper idiom in > english (this was french)). I'm not taking the comments too harsh. I wouldn't have answered, or, if I had, it would have been far less tongue in cheek. FreeBSD is largely derived from military contract work at UCB, like it or not. Without the military, BSD would have been stillborn. I just don't like my tax dollars being wasted on inferior crap [NT for instance, hey, did they ever tow that ship back to port?] or overpriced gear to do what BSD can do better [Sun, HP, etc]... DOD is the biggest waster of money on this planet. Their budget needs to be chopped bigtime, and can be chopped without losing capability. FreeBSD is one way this can happen. All of the other children have had their budgets slashed, now to slay the fire-breathing dragon of budgets, and yes, the dinosaurs will kick and scream until they realize they can do it better with less money. The spoiled brat of the government needs to bitch-slapped into waking up from their late 1970's/early 1980's computing mentality. This is reality in America right now. The GOP overdid their lalaland tax cut. OMB as of Saturday started calling GOP members back to the hill and said they will withold the latest budget projections for a full week past time for their lawful release. Call it damage-control time, because I have it on good sources that they will have to start dipping into Social Security AND Medicare to cover the tax cut starting next week because of the numbers they are witholding until they have a damage-control plan. We need to start chopping the waste from DOD before we as a public put up with that BS. FreeBSD is one way to chop such waste. I'd rather they pay $5-10k for a system that performs the work of a $50-100k system, now multiply that by many thousands. No loss in capability, massive budgetary savings, less taxes, no tax-increase to cover the tax cut. The tax-cut was playing with money the "gummint" didn't even have. It was truly a fantasy-land tax-cut. The savings by introducing FreeBSD as a practical alternative to more expensive and inferior systems is no more "fuzzy math" than the warnings of "all dem durned liberuls" concerning the Moron's tax-cut. This is one of the many reasons I fully support the DOD's involvement with the FreeBSD project. I can name one facility right now that can chop several million dollars out of their budget by getting with the times. As someone who has been an admin on contract to the DOD, I understand first-hand some of the hurdles that admins must face to get the job done. It would be nice if they could just copy the shell to the root partition from /usr/local/bin, but they can't. Ever been denied access to one of your systems for two weeks because you put a Sun-supplied and patch-updated copy of tcsh in your home-directory's ~/bin because it wasn't in the base distribution? I have. Like the military or not, it's your tax dollars too. If a contractor has to work overtime to get a job done that can be made easier by providing simple, yet defacto-standard tools as part of the base-distribution, then I see that as my tax dollars going down the hole, and I take that seriously. I hope you don't take my statements too harshly, but reality is reality, not some fantasy-land. jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 2:13:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from smtp010.mail.yahoo.com (smtp010.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 376D937B405 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:13:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kc5vdj@yahoo.com) Received: from mkc-65-28-47-209.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.28.47.209) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2001 09:13:51 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B779A50.7050807@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 04:13:52 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve O'Hara-Smith Cc: jmallett@NewGold.NET, wes@softweyr.com, jvervlied@hway.net, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bash in /usr/local/bin? References: <3B74D180.D036D629@hway.net> <3B75D33D.68368F22@softweyr.com> <3B764D47.6060902@yahoo.com> <20010812152709.A73284@NewGold.NET> <3B76FD51.40805@yahoo.com> <20010813073451.5b874e7e.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:04:01 -0500 > Jim Bryant wrote: > > JB> I said I'd drop it, but apparently there are people that don't understand the dinosaur mentality of certain organizations such as > JB> DOD, DISA/DECC, OSD, DARPA, USA, USN, USAF, and USMC. > JB> > JB> If it's not in the base setup, on a production box, you can't use it. Everything must be kept in it's ORIGINAL install location, > > Th obvious solution to this is a 'Military' switch in sysinstall > that sets PREFIX to / for all ports. heheh... actually... i've seen military systems that do this... from what i've read here, not many undrestand the actual mindset of the military when it comes to computing. the closest would be the guy who mentioned that since ports are on the CD's that they should be acceptable, this is incorrect. it took me a while to figure out how backwards they really are. this is one of the many reasons that they cannot keep good unix talent around. remember, these are the same people that argued that C and C++ was evil and that only ADA was good for nearly 15 years, until they finally realized they were wrong. let's take a look at the failures of what was supposed to be ADA's swan-song project: the new FAA ATC system... you know... the one that keeps crashing everywhere it's installed. jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 2:14:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 154D637B406; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:14:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.29.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.29]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA21323; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B779AAE.3AC31E1B@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:15:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach References: <200108130020.f7D0KXW01270@mass.dis.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > > Here is the _precise_ problem with older firmware: > > > > The Belkin KVM switch uses the "on->off->on" or "off->on->off" > > of this LED to signal a port change character is coming next, > > and times out the port change request only after a little > > while. > > Ah, so the problem is actually a design defect in the Belkin switch. > Nice to have that part confirmed. Toe-may-toe, Toe-mah-toe. Other vender's hacks are no better; if there's a design defect in the switch, it's that it doesn't take the double scroll-lock, instead of using the LED from the host, such that if it's wedged, you have to manually hit the "next console" button. On the other hand, I can force a console switch from software on a machine by toggling the scroll lock LED, and then forcing the keyboard to send me a key-down for a digit by priming its buffer, which is really handy if you want to do an automated rolling demo for a trade show, etc.. > > The fundamental problem here is that FreeBSD _resets_ a > > keyboard which has already been correctly reset by the BIOS, > > if it is present. > > You can't be sure of this. Just as we reset everything else we > talk to, we reset the keyboard. Specific examples where *not* > resetting things gets us into trouble can typically be found by > looking for "when I reboot from Windows XYZ doesn't work". I think that depowering the thing and repowering it at POST is enough to know its state... The only historical fly in this ointment is that some old systems didn't put a real flip-flop on the CPU reset line, and latch it as a result of getting the keyboard reset command from the keyboard controller. Most of these are using XT keyboards, though, which won't work with any KVM switches out there today, since the controller chip is on the wrong side of the keyboard connector cable. 8-). > > The FreeBSD keyboard detection is another matter; FreeBSD > > will assume that there is no keyboard, and try to "helpfully" > > drop you into serial console mode. > > No it won't, unless you explicitly configure it. This is the "-P default" case; most people are not running that recent a -current. > > Some of this _used_ to > > be mitigated by checking for the "extended keyboard bit" in > > the "keyboard identify" BIOS call, but this was a problem > > for people with antique keyboards. > > This is not the problem, as I have already mentioned in another message. > BIOS vendors have *stopped* setting this bit. I've checked 5 machines, including the Tyan and SuperMicro (the latter is AMI BIOS), as well as my Sony VAIO... all set the bit. That said, I agree that it's not a very good way of detecting a keyboard being out there... 8-(. > > My suggestion for a probe in this case would be to set up > > a different handler for the reset signal, and then ask the > > keyboard to send the reset signal. If it does, then there > > is a keyboard present. > > Keyboard probing is a dead loss, which is why we don't do it > by default. I wish we could avoid resetting, as well. I think that the BIOS you are seeing not setting the bit has decided to not do the probe, too. That's understandable, given that KVM switches are becoming more and more common: they probably saw the same thing FreeBSD is seeing with these boxes. > > More ideally, the FreeBSD box would detect whether or not > > the video card had been disabled, and use _that_ to decide > > whether or not to use a keyboard. It would become the job > > of the video driver -- be it a regular driver, or be it an > > LCD driver -- to make the distinction. > > There is no standardised way of detecting whether a display > has been "disabled". One gross way that I have never seen fail is to make an INT 10 call to set a standard (the default) video mode, and note that the registers indicate a failure. > > Absolutely ideally, FreeBSD would come up with the boot code > > on _both_ (this is an option), and then be told by the user > > to not use one of them -- or boot using _both_, until told > > to do otherwise. > > We've tried this already; people didn't like it. Well, I think the only option left here is explicit configuration. The boot loader doesn't reset the keyboard, does it? I've never seen the LEDs "flash dance", between the PST and the FreeBSD keyboard probe, anyway. Perhaps we could elect to reset the keyboard from the boot loader, as an option, and not do it by default... > > This would _also_ solve the Alpha serial console dance. > > Actually, it wouldn't, since we use the SRM console for quite a ways, and > SRM doesn't do multi-source console I/O. (And when you have a version of > SRM that allows you to 'pull' the console by sending a few keystrokes, > you can't work out where it's actually directed anyway.) Ugh. I was thinking more in terms of activating both drivers, and sinking both inputs to the same /dev/console... not pretty, either. Cheers, -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 2:18:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75FF637B409; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:18:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.29.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.29]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA26717; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B779B91.6BAAA206@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:19:13 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: current@FreeBSD.org, Sean Kelly , Kazutaka YOKOTA , Matt Dillon , Mike Smith Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin wrote: > 1) Implement probing/detection for PS/2 keyboards post-boot. You can hack > this by having the atkbd0 driver always attach to IRQ 1, but not create and > export a kbd0 syscons keyboard driver until it gets an interrupt event from > the keyboard. This would be pretty easy. > 2) Rewrite the syscons keyboard layer so that we don't have a primary > keyboard that is always the current keyboard, but instead make it accept > input from all keyboards currently plugged into the system. With this you > could go back to assuming a PS/2 keyboard is always around as a hack. This would be rather cool, since it would let me dock and undock my laptop or use an external USB keyboard at the same time... I'll have to find some time to go to Fry's some time in the next couple of weeks or so... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 2:23:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4427537B40B; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:23:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.29.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.29]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA03394; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B779CA1.F06B06FE@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:23:45 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: current@FreeBSD.org, Sean Kelly , Kazutaka YOKOTA , Matt Dillon , Mike Smith , Nate Williams Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin wrote: > > My suggestion for a probe in this case would be to set up > > a different handler for the reset signal, and then ask the > > keyboard to send the reset signal. If it does, then there > > is a keyboard present. > > Yeah, and resetting the controller works fine on machines that don't > have keyboards, so it returns false positives. I don't *want* the controller reset: that's what makes the LEDs flash and screw up the KVM's. > > More ideally, the FreeBSD box would detect whether or not > > the video card had been disabled, and use _that_ to decide > > whether or not to use a keyboard. It would become the job > > of the video driver -- be it a regular driver, or be it an > > LCD driver -- to make the distinction. > > This might be practical except that lots of motherboards ship with > built-in video these days. I think that disabling this in AMI BIOS, at least, will result in the carry flag being set to indicate INT 10 call failures. > What dance? Works great for me. If SRM uses serial console, so > does FreeBSD. If SRM uses vidconsole, so does FreeBSD. In fact, > this is the _only_ way it can work on the Alpha since SRM just > gives you one console device handle and one boot device handle. > > Have you actually used an Alpha before? :-P Yes, I've used a Miata and a Multia with FreeBSD, and several others with DEC UNIX, and had a PC164 at one time. Surprisingly, setting "vidconsole" in the SRM didn't make my TGA work in FreeBSD. 8-p. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 2:27: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B1D037B401 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:27:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.29.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.29]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA08705; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B779D85.F292A2F@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:27:33 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: Joe Kelsey , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach References: <15222.50892.75406.972475@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <200108130044.f7D0igW03766@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > > In message <15222.50892.75406.972475@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Joe Kelsey writes: > : I also second Terry's comment about 0x800. There is no reason to add > : yet more driver flags in order to "do the right thing". The "do the > : right thing" case should always be default and a flag (sysctl variable, > : etc) should be used for those who want "the wrong thing". > > The main reason that it wasn't added at the time was that it was > expensive in terms of CPU utilization, so it shouldn't be on by > default. There may be other reasons as well... ??? It was just recently added; I'd like to see it MFC'ed for 4.4, but certainly, Kazu hasn't been slacking on 0x8000. I personally don't see how it could be more costly in terms of CPU, since it only invokes in the case of a desynchronized mouse event coming in to the mouse driver: e.g. a failure case that only triggers when there's bot a failure, and a monkey on the other end of the mouse cable. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 2:35:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7BA237B401 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:35:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.29.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.29]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA20382; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B779F92.4172DD27@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:36:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Kelsey Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach References: <15222.50892.75406.972475@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> <200108120813.RAA26578@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <200108130044.f7D0igW03766@harmony.village.org> <15223.10812.286362.192448@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joe Kelsey wrote: [ ... 0x8000 ... ] > Again, all I am asking is for someone to explain why they make a design > decision. The comment in the psm.c file about a "hack" is extremely > unhelpful. Why did the coder think it was a "hack" solution? What were > the pros and cons that went into that decision. Was there a discussion > on -current about it that I missed? If there was a discussion and a > conclusion was reached, the proper thing to do is to insert > documentation into the code to explain the design decisions that were > made. If you don't document the design in the code, it will be > forgotton, as there is no other place to document it in FreeBSD. Kazu stated that the reason he didn't enable this by default is that he wanted it tested before he committed to making it the default. It's a bit over the top conservative (since it can't make a broken mouse any more broken), but I understand his intent, if not his reasoning. It's a hack solution, since it should "just work", but this makes an intrinsic assumption that you won't put something between you and the hardware to cause problems. It could be that he just hadn't thought of that -- but I doubt it, since the code came from him in the first place. All in all, I agree with the sentiment on design documentation: I'd like to see a lot more of it before code is thrown at a problem, and I'd like to see more literate programming, and most of all I'd like to see benchmarks froving that changes are not gratuitous, or if they are, they at don't injure performance (people have actually been much better about this lately, for the most part, though I still fear for the tcptmpl elimination, rather than merely a reduction in the allocation size). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 3: 2: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C068037B409 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 03:02:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.29.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.29]) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA27697; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 03:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B77A59E.A850AB67@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 03:02:06 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gordon Tetlow Cc: Warner Losh , Joe Kelsey , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netiquette (Was: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gordon Tetlow wrote: > This is such a great example of how tone can come across poorly in a text > medium. I doubt (hope) that Joe didn't mean to come across as that. But > tone in email is so often inferred based on the readers own moods, that > phrasing email becomes much more important so as to not give the reader > the wrong impression. > > This should be required reading for anyone considering posting to a > FreeBSD mailing list. My personal suggestion: it's nice to "be nice", but it's better to be as nice as you can, and grow a thick skin. This isn't me being facetious: many of the people involved in FreeBSD are not coming to it as native speakers of English, and most of the discussions on these lists are in English. If you insist on taking offense at every opportunity, or even at half of them, then you will find yourself not getting along very well. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 3:10:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCEAB37B406 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 03:10:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.143.29.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.143.29]) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAB07386; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 03:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B77A796.7D4C22E0@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 03:10:30 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Dillon Cc: Kazutaka YOKOTA , Sean Kelly , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Dillon wrote: > Occasionally I'll have mouse sync problems when I switch between > FreeBSD and NT when the NT box has had difference mice (wheel vs. > non-wheel MS mice, apparently) used on it via the dual-user KVM > switch. NT seems to handle that case fairly well by resetting the > PS/2 port and/or the mouse (not sure which) and redetecting the mouse > type. There is actually a Cybex-specific "Microsoft Knowledge Base" article which discusses the registry setting you need to pound on to make NT not attempt to detect the mouse wheel (FWIW). > FreeBSD doesn't like when NT has done that to the mouse, > though, and spews sync errors when I switch back. Usually I can kill > moused and restart it to fix the problem. The 0x8000 flag fixes exactly this problem! > > and the local wiring (non-ethernet version) of the Belkin OmniView > > switches work if the FreeBSD mouse/keyboard is selected at boot > > time, so that the aggressive probe/attach can satisfy itself. > > That is the KVM switch's fault, not FreeBSD's. On all but the most > expensive KVM switches which offer true "keyboard and mouse emulation" > on all ports, even NT (or actually the BIOS, I assume) can fail to > enable keyboard and mouse support in that case. The dual-user Belkin > OmniView seems to handle this correctly. I can't recall any problem > booting FreeBSD on it even when its console isn't active. Yes, it has to to support the dual use case; we have one of those in the lab, as well... > > Belkin went out of its way to support FreeBSD specifically, > > actually: their firmware version 1.9 fixes the local wiring > > switches, so that they can pass FreeBSD's aggressive probe, even > > if the FreeBSD mouse/keyboard is _not_ selected. > > Hmm... I'll have to check, maybe thats why mine works. :-) Little square sticker with rounded corners on the bottom, about 1/2" by 1/4", with just the version, e.g. "1.9"... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 6:54:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from EnContacto.Net (adsl-63-205-16-205.dsl.mtry01.pacbell.net [63.205.16.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3037737B409 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 06:54:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eculp@EnContacto.Net) Received: (from root@localhost) by EnContacto.Net (8.11.5/8.11.4) id f7DDrhI83623 for current@freebsd.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 06:53:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eculp@EnContacto.Net) From: Edwin Culp Received: from 63.205.16.204 ( [63.205.16.204]) as user eculp@encontacto.net by Mail.SavvyWorld.Net with HTTP; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 06:53:43 -0700 Message-ID: <997710823.3b77dbe788ca1@Mail.SavvyWorld.Net> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 06:53:43 -0700 To: current@freebsd.org Subject: make release may be broken MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 2.3.7-cvs X-Originating-IP: 63.205.16.204 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Cahnges made between Friday morning and today may have broken make release. I just got the following error: /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs/cvs/../../../../contrib/cvs/lib -I/usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/ cvs/cvs/../../../../contrib/cvs/diff -DHAVE_KERBEROS -DHAVE_KRB_GET_ERR_TEXT -DE NCRYPTION -c /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs/cvs/../../../../contrib/cvs/src/client. c /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs/cvs/../../../../contrib/cvs/src/client.c: In function ` start_tcp_server': /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs/cvs/../../../../contrib/cvs/src/client.c:4124: `client_ sai' undeclared (first use in this function) /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs/cvs/../../../../contrib/cvs/src/client.c:4124: (Each un declared identifier is reported only once /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs/cvs/../../../../contrib/cvs/src/client.c:4124: for each function it appears in.) Changes between Friday and today may have broken /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs/cvs/../../../../contrib/cvs/src/client.c:4151: warning: passing arg 6 of `krb_sendauth' discards qualifiers from pointer target type *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs/cvs. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/kerberosIV. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/release. *** Error code 1 Stop in /usr/src/release. Friday's cvsup built fine. ed ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn and relearn. --Alvin Toffler To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 8:25:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from updraft.jp.freebsd.org (updraft.jp.FreeBSD.ORG [210.157.158.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AD0E37B403; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 08:25:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by updraft.jp.freebsd.org (8.11.3+3.4W/8.11.3) with ESMTP/inet id f7DFP1a88824; Tue, 14 Aug 2001 00:25:01 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org) Cc: peter@FreeBSD.org X-Face: '*aj"d@ijeQ:/X}]oM5c5Uz{ZZZk90WPt>a^y4$cGQp8:!H\W=hSM;PuNiidkc]/%,;6VGu e+`&APmz|P;F~OL/QK%;P2vU>\j4X.8@i%j6[%DTs_3J,Fff0)*oHg$A.cDm&jc#pD24WK@{,"Ef!0 P\):.2}8jo-BiZ?X&t$V X-User-Agent: Mew/1.94.2 XEmacs/21.5 (alfalfa) X-FaceAnim: (-O_O-)(O_O- )(_O- )(O- )(- -)( -O)( -O_)( -O_O)(-O_O-) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 13 From: Makoto MATSUSHITA To: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: src/kerberosIV/Makefile doesn't know that cvs is now temporary broken Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 00:24:44 +0900 Message-Id: <20010814002444Q.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG After importing a new cvs (located at src/gnu/usr.bin/cvs), src/gnu/usr.bin/Makefile was modified not to compile cvs, since cvs is temporary broken for bulid. However, there is yet another makefile which builds cvs also -- src/kerberosIV/Makefile. Since this file is left unchanged, we cannot build a release. Would you please also commented out cvs line from src/kerberosIV/Makefile? -- - Makoto `MAR' MATSUSHITA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 9:38:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo.feral.com [192.67.166.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A613D37B40A; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 09:38:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from wonky.feral.com (wonky.feral.com [192.67.166.7]) by beppo.feral.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7DGcaI10730; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 09:38:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 09:38:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: To: "David O'Brien" Cc: Subject: Re: builds failing in binutils... In-Reply-To: <20010809110035.A14858@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: <20010813093807.Y70892-100000@wonky.feral.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG With source moved back to /usr/src, this hasn't yet reproduced. On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, David O'Brien wrote: > On Thu, Aug 09, 2001 at 09:02:50AM -0700, Matthew Jacob wrote: > > I put a fresh clean source tree off not in /usr/src- it seems to die on the > > alpha in binutils. Anyone seen this? > > Can you remove the "-pipe" and add "-save-temps"? I would like to see > the preprocessed ldexp.i. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 10:24:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from whale.sunbay.crimea.ua (whale.sunbay.crimea.ua [212.110.138.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49B4637B40F for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:24:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ru@whale.sunbay.crimea.ua) Received: (from ru@localhost) by whale.sunbay.crimea.ua (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f7DHMBc03989; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 20:22:11 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from ru) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 20:22:11 +0300 From: Ruslan Ermilov To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mark Peek , Bruce Evans , Warner Losh , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cross builds and upgrade path from 4.x are broken in usr.bin/file Message-ID: <20010813202211.B2099@sunbay.com> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Mark Peek , Bruce Evans , Warner Losh , current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010810110151.B7988@sunbay.com> <20010810235643.Y23367-100000@besplex.bde.org> <20010810173751.B60193@sunbay.com> <20010810191407.A73485@sunbay.com> <20010810202300.A80439@sunbay.com> <3B757EA6.A69FF34B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B757EA6.A69FF34B@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 11:51:18AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 11:51:18AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: [...] > > > If this is really a goal, then you should redesign the > > > process and not put more and more tools into the "build tools" > > > category to work around these problems. > > > > Take a look at sysinstall/Makefile to have a better idea of what > > a "pure" build tool is, rtermcap. It is just the first incident > > (with file(1)) that it's also a build-tool for its own .mgc files. > > Mark is right, here. The idea of "build tools" is intrinsically > broken, given the goal (if it is a goal). > The build-tools stage is responsible for creating tools that are to be used only during `buildworld', and are not used/installed otherwise. The file(1) is special in that it produces the MD format, hence it is not suitable for build-tools. (I did not know that.) Cheers, -- Ruslan Ermilov Oracle Developer/DBA, ru@sunbay.com Sunbay Software AG, ru@FreeBSD.org FreeBSD committer, +380.652.512.251 Simferopol, Ukraine http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve http://www.oracle.com Enabling The Information Age To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 10:25: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from whale.sunbay.crimea.ua (whale.sunbay.crimea.ua [212.110.138.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E0237B405; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:24:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ru@whale.sunbay.crimea.ua) Received: (from ru@localhost) by whale.sunbay.crimea.ua (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f7DHOiN04269; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 20:24:44 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from ru) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 20:24:44 +0300 From: Ruslan Ermilov To: John Baldwin Cc: current@FreeBSD.org, Warner Losh , Bruce Evans , Mark Peek Subject: Re: Cross builds and upgrade path from 4.x are broken in usr.bin Message-ID: <20010813202444.C2099@sunbay.com> Mail-Followup-To: John Baldwin , current@FreeBSD.org, Warner Losh , Bruce Evans , Mark Peek References: <20010810202300.A80439@sunbay.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jhb@FreeBSD.org on Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:54:27AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:54:27AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 10-Aug-01 Ruslan Ermilov wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 10:04:01AM -0700, Mark Peek wrote: > >> At 7:14 PM +0300 8/10/01, Ruslan Ermilov wrote: > >> >On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 08:38:21AM -0700, Mark Peek wrote: > >> > > At 5:37 PM +0300 8/10/01, Ruslan Ermilov wrote: > >> > > I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "cross-platform" > >> >> installworld. Do you mean "build on a HOST platform and install on > >> >> TARGET", or "build on a HOST, install on HOST but using a TARGET > >> >> disk"? > >> >> > >> >I meant the latter here. > >> > >> Has this ever worked? > >> Is it really a goal of the project to have it work? > >> > > Yes. Imagine that you are rolling an Alpha release on an i386 box. > > You don't do that. Cross releases need much more work before that is > feasible. As Mark mentions, there are many thigns that would need to be > fixed. Also, the release process would be hacked, and you still wouldn't > have a true "clean room" release since you can't build a "clean room" to run > a fresh world in. > But this doesn't mean we should add more to this breakage, if we can avoid this. Otherwise, you more and more complicate the task for making this scenario possible. > >> Your solution does not work. You're creating binary files in HOST > >> format during the build phase and expecting things such as alignment > >> and endianness to be the same as the TARGET format. Unless the tools > >> are built to output for either the appropriate architecture or in a > >> portable, binary format, you will have problems reading the file on > >> the TARGET platform. It probably works for you since you're doing a > >> 4.X->5.0 upgrade on the same platform. > >> > > What? ``file -C'' produces different output on Alpha and on i386? > > Are you sure? (Haven't checked myself.) > > sparc64 is big endian. > So what? There are utilities that produce MI binary output. Apparently, this one does not. Cheers, -- Ruslan Ermilov Oracle Developer/DBA, ru@sunbay.com Sunbay Software AG, ru@FreeBSD.org FreeBSD committer, +380.652.512.251 Simferopol, Ukraine http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve http://www.oracle.com Enabling The Information Age To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 10:55:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9C8E37B40A; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:55:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@[147.11.46.201]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA27410; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010813202444.C2099@sunbay.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:55:11 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Ruslan Ermilov Subject: Re: Cross builds and upgrade path from 4.x are broken in usr.bin Cc: Mark Peek , Bruce Evans , Warner Losh , current@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 13-Aug-01 Ruslan Ermilov wrote: > On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:54:27AM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: >> >> On 10-Aug-01 Ruslan Ermilov wrote: >> > On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 10:04:01AM -0700, Mark Peek wrote: >> >> At 7:14 PM +0300 8/10/01, Ruslan Ermilov wrote: >> >> >On Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 08:38:21AM -0700, Mark Peek wrote: >> >> > > At 5:37 PM +0300 8/10/01, Ruslan Ermilov wrote: >> >> > > I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "cross-platform" >> >> >> installworld. Do you mean "build on a HOST platform and install on >> >> >> TARGET", or "build on a HOST, install on HOST but using a TARGET >> >> >> disk"? >> >> >> >> >> >I meant the latter here. >> >> >> >> Has this ever worked? >> >> Is it really a goal of the project to have it work? >> >> >> > Yes. Imagine that you are rolling an Alpha release on an i386 box. >> >> You don't do that. Cross releases need much more work before that is >> feasible. As Mark mentions, there are many thigns that would need to be >> fixed. Also, the release process would be hacked, and you still wouldn't >> have a true "clean room" release since you can't build a "clean room" to run >> a fresh world in. >> > But this doesn't mean we should add more to this breakage, if we can > avoid this. Otherwise, you more and more complicate the task for > making this scenario possible. You aren't going to be using a typical installworld to package up a cross release. The bits are actually packaged up directly from the /usr/obj tree via the distribute targets. The installworlds during release are only to generate the clean room. >> >> Your solution does not work. You're creating binary files in HOST >> >> format during the build phase and expecting things such as alignment >> >> and endianness to be the same as the TARGET format. Unless the tools >> >> are built to output for either the appropriate architecture or in a >> >> portable, binary format, you will have problems reading the file on >> >> the TARGET platform. It probably works for you since you're doing a >> >> 4.X->5.0 upgrade on the same platform. >> >> >> > What? ``file -C'' produces different output on Alpha and on i386? >> > Are you sure? (Haven't checked myself.) >> >> sparc64 is big endian. >> > So what? There are utilities that produce MI binary output. > Apparently, this one does not. That answers your question that your cross installworld isn't going to work. *sigh* He noted that your solution doesn't work because you are assuming that the TARGET and HOST file formats are the same. He's pointing out that that is not the case. You asked for an example, and I gave you one. :) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 10:55:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AA9937B408; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:55:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@[147.11.46.201]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA27344; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3B779CA1.F06B06FE@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:55:08 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: FreeBSD's aggressive keyboard probe/attach Cc: Nate Williams , Mike Smith , Matt Dillon , Kazutaka YOKOTA , Sean Kelly , current@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 13-Aug-01 Terry Lambert wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: >> > More ideally, the FreeBSD box would detect whether or not >> > the video card had been disabled, and use _that_ to decide >> > whether or not to use a keyboard. It would become the job >> > of the video driver -- be it a regular driver, or be it an >> > LCD driver -- to make the distinction. >> >> This might be practical except that lots of motherboards ship with >> built-in video these days. > > I think that disabling this in AMI BIOS, at least, will result > in the carry flag being set to indicate INT 10 call failures. Unfortunately there are other BIOS vendors, and we need a solution that works across the board and doesn't trigger false positives. (Most BIOS's don't set the enhanced keyboard bit for USB keyboards, and some don't set it for PS/2 keyboards either, hence turning off -P.) >> What dance? Works great for me. If SRM uses serial console, so >> does FreeBSD. If SRM uses vidconsole, so does FreeBSD. In fact, >> this is the _only_ way it can work on the Alpha since SRM just >> gives you one console device handle and one boot device handle. >> >> Have you actually used an Alpha before? :-P > > Yes, I've used a Miata and a Multia with FreeBSD, and several > others with DEC UNIX, and had a PC164 at one time. > > Surprisingly, setting "vidconsole" in the SRM didn't make > my TGA work in FreeBSD. 8-p. Not all of those machines have TGA's, and you could be testing out the TGA driver. However, there is no song and dance, you set the console to serial for a TGA machine and it all works and fine. Not exactly a song and dance. :) > -- Terry -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 11:20: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from zircon.seattle.wa.us (sense-sea-CovadSub-0-228.oz.net [216.39.147.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 772C037B40C for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:19:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@zircon.seattle.wa.us) Received: (qmail 10669 invoked by uid 1001); 13 Aug 2001 18:23:12 -0000 From: Joe Kelsey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15224.6928.355296.565585@zircon.zircon.seattle.wa.us> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:23:12 -0700 To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Last Words...(documentation) X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under Emacs 20.7.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG OK already. I am sick and tired of this documentation discussion and it appears that it is too hot of a topic for this list. However, I have one last comment to make. TWO people have written to me and said that the reason THEY write documentation in their "day" jobs is that they get PAID for it. So, excuse me! I guess real programmers only write documentation when they are PAID! Obviously, working on a FREE product, you don't get paid so you don't document! After all, the meaning is obvious from the code! /Joe p.s. I don't really have to supply sarcasm markers here, do I? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 13 11:39:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D41FA37B407 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:39:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@[147.11.46.201]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA10072; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010811161646.A1603@kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:39:29 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Alexander Langer Subject: RE: trap in vm_object_pip_add Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 11-Aug-01 Alexander Langer wrote: > Hi! > > Under high network load together with high ata disk i/o, I can > easily reprocude this trap. I think it happens when a fork() is done > (I always got it when starting new programs...). Ewwww. I used to get this on my test SMP alpha machine a lot with the giant vm lock. I hadn't seen it before then and haven't seen it since. :( The problem is that vm_map_lookup() is returning RV_SUCCESS (or whatever the SUCCESS return value is) but the value it returns in fs.fs_object is NULL. :( I have no idea what the cause of this bug is. > Script started on Sat Aug 11 16:12:07 2001 > mobile# gdb -k kernel.debug vmcore.3 > GNU gdb 4.18 > Copyright 1998 Free Software Foundation, Inc. > GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Public License, and you are > welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it under certain conditions. > Type "show copying" to see the conditions. > There is absolutely no warranty for GDB. Type "show warranty" for details. > This GDB was configured as "i386-unknown-freebsd"... > IdlePTD 4931584 > initial pcb at 3b5a20 > panicstr: from debugger > panic messages: > --- > ACPI debug layer 0x0 debug level 0x0 > Copyright (c) 1992-2001 The FreeBSD Project. > Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 > The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. > FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #1: Fri Aug 10 13:45:01 CEST 2001 > alex@mobile.cichlids.com:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/MOBILE > Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz > Timecounter "TSC" frequency 647190237 Hz > CPU: Pentium III/Pentium III Xeon/Celeron (647.19-MHz 686-class CPU) > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x683 Stepping = 3 > > Features=0x387f9ff T,PSE36,PN,MMX,FXSR,SSE> > real memory = 67043328 (65472K bytes) > avail memory = 60137472 (58728K bytes) > Preloaded elf kernel "kernel" at 0xc0495000. > Preloaded elf module "agp.ko" at 0xc049509c. > Preloaded elf module "random.ko" at 0xc0495138. > Warning: module random already exists > Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled > WARNING: Driver mistake: repeat make_dev("random") > Using $PIR table, 4 entries at 0xc00fdf80 > acpi0: on motherboard > Timecounter "ACPI" frequency 3579545 Hz > acpi_cpu0: on acpi0 > acpi_tz0: on acpi0 > acpi_pcib0: on acpi0 > pci0: on acpi_pcib0 > agp0: mem 0xf8000000-0xfbffffff > at device 0.0 on pci0 > pcib1: at device 1.0 on pci0 > pci1: on pcib1 > pci1: at 0.0 (no driver attached) > isab0: at device 7.0 on pci0 > isa0: on isab0 > atapci0: port 0x1050-0x105f at device 7.1 on > pci0 > ata0: at 0x1f0 irq 14 on atapci0 > ata1: at 0x170 irq 15 on atapci0 > uhci0: port 0x1060-0x107f irq 11 at > device 7.2 on pci0 > usb0: on uhci0 > usb0: USB revision 1.0 > uhub0: Intel UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1 > uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered > pci0: at 7.3 (no driver attached) > pci0: at 9.0 (no driver attached) > pci0: at 9.1 (no driver attached) > pcic0: mem 0x44000000-0x44000fff irq 11 at > device 12.0 on pci0 > pccard0: on pcic0 > acpi_ec0: on acpi0 > acpi_acad0: on acpi0 > acpi_cmbat0: on acpi0 > acpi_lid0: on acpi0 > acpi_button0: on acpi0 > acpi_button1: on acpi0 > acpi_timer0: <24-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x1008-0x100b on acpi0 > npx0: on motherboard > npx0: INT 16 interface > too many dependant configs > too many dependant configs > too many dependant configs > too many dependant configs > too many dependant configs > too many dependant configs > too many dependant configs > too many dependant configs > orm0: