From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 3:32:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADDA937B40A for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 03:32:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p67.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.67]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA156484; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:32:04 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA12638; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 04:34:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 04:34:35 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: Walter Betancourt Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: re In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20010825162953.00d6aad0@pop3.palace.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Sat, 25 Aug 2001, Walter Betancourt wrote: > Well I just have to say that if there wasn't Windows we would all be years > ahead in > > computer technology. Maybe hardware. The "PC"... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 3:32:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C2CE37B40B for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 03:32:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p67.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.67]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA156486; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:32:05 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA12634; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 04:31:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 04:31:47 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: darren Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: apache, php, mysql In-Reply-To: <012501c12cea$c1f65400$5cd294d0@k6> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Did such an install some days ago. Ordinary apache package and compiled PHP with MySQL support. The apache+PHP package didnt work with MySQL (4.0 R). Installed MySQL first, then PHP. 4.0.6. Read the PHP readmes. Didnt succeed with image creation so far, maybe my libpng is to old. Or ming. But this isnt MySQL. Btw, any suggestions for things like PHP-nuke ? Phorum ? Has anybody ever has experiences with such systems ? What would you install ? How would you decide ? Thanks, H. On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, darren wrote: > If I want to install apache, php and mysql, do I have to compile it from > scratch? Or, is there a way to get it from ports? I see several apache > ports. But, none of them mentions php or mysql. > > Darren > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 3:32:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E8E37B40D for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 03:32:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p67.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.67]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA51314; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:32:10 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA12618; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 04:18:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 04:18:43 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: kevin godfrey Cc: Dan Look , ITServices@cableinet.co.uk, Conrad Sabatier , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, joel2a@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers In-Reply-To: <3B884440.9555A61C@ticktockman.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > (Xerox didn't think home computers were going to be a big thing). MS > "borrowed" the technology, if I remember correctly, they were brought to Apple did "own" the mouse... Patentable ? I think IBM owns floppies To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 4: 3:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0819537B40B for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 04:03:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin@caomhin.demon.co.uk) Received: from caomhin.demon.co.uk ([212.228.234.119]) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 15axhQ-000Fm2-0Y; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:03:30 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:41:16 +0100 To: Dan Look Cc: ITServices@cableinet.co.uk, Conrad Sabatier , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, joel2a@yahoo.com From: Kevin Golding Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers References: <4.2.2.20010803221311.00cb62e0@mail.intwebservices.com> <054111029231981PCOW024M@blueyonder.co.uk> <01082601582601.00417@wolverine.pandora.be> In-Reply-To: <01082601582601.00417@wolverine.pandora.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <01082601582601.00417@wolverine.pandora.be>, Dan Look writes >The first GUI's were developed at Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Centre) (or >so I've allways been told). And then first brought to public attention by Apple >(mostly). > >I guess the early internet/arpanet ran mostly on Unix but I beleive TCP/IP was >developed with cross platform compatability specifically in mind. > >And yes it's true, up untill around '95 MS had little or no interest in the >'net. Not even then really, they wanted to go the AOL/Compuserve route and offer a proprietary network, it was only after MSN flopped that it became more of a true ISP. However it isn't completely outrageous to suggest that some of these things would be as big or popular. Whether we like it or not MS have actually done quite a bit for computer evangelism, and that's a good term for it. Think of Bill as one of those dodgy TV[1] evangelists, sure, it's good that he gets people seeing the appeal of things, it's just a shame he's too busy lining his pockets. Anyway, today's embrace and extend URI is.... http://www.microsoft.com/windows/embedded/ce/tools/source/license.asp Kevin [1] as in Television okay! :-) >> On 25 Aug 01, at 15:03, Conrad Sabatier wrote: >> >> > >> > On 04-Aug-2001 joel2a@yahoo.com wrote: >> > > Well I just have to say that if there wasn't Windows we would all be >> > > back the days of console prompt typing and there certainly would not be >> > > as many people on the internet. >> > >> > Anyone who begins a post with a statement as absurdly ridiculous as this >> > deserves only one of two things (or both): to be ignored or killfiled. >> > >> >> Joel, if history wasn't the way it is, it would be different. That does >> not preclude development of the internet nor something like >> Windows but different. And the internet started as Unix, IIRC. >> Until recently Bill Gates was on public record as saying that the >> internet was not going to be important ... even the devil can be >> wrong ;-)) And I do believe that GUIs were invented elsewhere and >> Microsoft copied and even purloined some of >> the code. Though I stand to be corrected about that. -- kevin@caomhin.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 9: 2:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68CD137B401 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:02:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jallen@aviating.com) Received: from aviating.com (pool0156.cvx10-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.182.156]) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f7QG2Zp07891; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B891D9A.13E42204@aviating.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:02:34 -0700 From: Slim Organization: none X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kevin Golding Cc: Dan Look , ITServices@cableinet.co.uk, Conrad Sabatier , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, joel2a@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers References: <4.2.2.20010803221311.00cb62e0@mail.intwebservices.com> <054111029231981PCOW024M@blueyonder.co.uk> <01082601582601.00417@wolverine.pandora.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There's no point, nothing to be gained, by bashing anybody who contributed to the buildup of the computer business to where it is today. In 1970, there were no computers available for personal use, except on an extremely limited scale, guys getting used micro computers being upgraded to main frames mostly. The relatively small part of the population who had ever seen a computer in real life had no dream of ever actually owning one themselves. I certainly did not. Then the Intel chips started appearing. We bought these small one board devices with 1K of memory and no I/O other than a hex keyboard and 8 segment tubes, and wrote programs in 1s and 0s, because there were no assemblers. Oh, you could write in the chip's command set and assemble it by hand if you wanted, or just eliminate the middle step. This was in the mid-70's. BYTE Magazine made it's appearance about this time. I bought an Apple IIp in about 1976 or 77, with 16K of memory, cassette tape I/O and a RF converter to use a TV set for a screen. It came with a BASIC interpreter built in, and a game on cassette called "Little Brickout". That was all the software there was. I think it cost about $1,500 at a time when you could buy a new Volvo for about $4,500! A few years later, I was able to buy a newly introduced 5.25 floppy, for about $1400, IIRC. No hard drives at this point. There were enthusiasts all over the country, spending their evenings in their workshops and back bedrooms tinkering, trying to figure out how to make something useful out of these little devices. This fellow in Albuquerque was selling micro-processors in kit form which could be built into a real working computer, the Altair, and another outfit was selling Imsai's, with lights and switches covering the front panel for I/O. Apples were the slickest, and came ready to use right out of the box... but for what? There were no I/O devices except cassette tapes, and paper tape, so the first order of business was to write some code to load a paper tape loader. You flipped switches to input that program byte by byte until you had it all in memory, then hit the "Run" switch. If you had miss flipped one switch, it crashed and you had to do it all over again. The hero at the computer society back then was a guy who came up with a paper tape loader that only took 28 bytes down from about 60. Much less switch flipping! The first hackers! With an Apple, you eliminated all that, BTW. I still have around here somewhere the patent application which told how to take an ordinary IBM Selectric typewriter and rig it up for use as a printer. You guys would fall down laughing to see what a kluge this was, but there was almost nothing else, and Selectrics were plentiful, if not cheap. I think they weighed over a hundred pounds, too. Some of the more active creative types gradually figured out how to make some money from their avocation, supplying parts and supplies and machines and know-how to the rest of us. Some hung on and eventually made good money, others came and went. There was an amazing mix of people involved, barely teens to BHOF's, all brought together by a shared enthusiasm to innovate, learn, create and make something of these wonderful new devices. This was an evolutionary process, maybe even a series of closely spaced mini revolutionary processes happening asynchronously and very disorderly. There wasn't much practical use for these things in the early days. No database managers, no spread sheets, no accounting, no Wizard and Princess, no nothing. The first software packages were dreadful, exceeded in their complexity only by their uselessness. The term "user friendly" was unheard of, and unpracticed. Documentation was pathetic, setting the standard which persists to this day. Things started to really get in gear when the guy came up with VisiCalc. This was a real revolution, the first mass software to make a real impact. Things were different after Visicalc than they were before... much different. Now you could actually DO something useful with your computer without being a white coated computerwizard. Accountants, real estate investors, stock brokers, gas station owners, etc. started to acquire Apple II's like crazy. A few stories in the Wall Street Journal and such like places, and pretty soon there began to be rumors that IBM was coming up with a micro-processor. The term "Personal Computer" or PC was first introduced after a vigorous debate about what to call these things, since "micro-processor" seemed so clumsy and unmarketable. While all this was going on, and fermenting, there were these two snot-nosed punks, one of whom had written a BASIC interpreter, but they didn't have a machine to try it on. They wrote it solely from the chip manual, the Intel 8080 chip, I believe it was. They called this guy at Altair in Albuquerque and asked if they could come down and try it. They could, he said, they did and it ran the first time..... no debugging required. Those two were Bill Gates and Paul Allen. I still laugh every time I think of this Senior VP at IBM who made the decision whether to exercise IBM's option to acquire all rights to the MS-DOS operating system for $100,000, and who decided that $100,000 was an awful lot of money to be paying these teenagers! The Bill Buckner of computing!!! We ought to be g**d**** glad he didn't pay. The purpose of all this is not so much to defend Gates and Allen, but rather to make the point that there is no place, no call, for bashing of anyone, especially by guys who have accomplished next to nothing in advancing the state of computing. It is simply inappropriate, and frankly seems to be used mostly to build up the basher's ego by belittling the bashee. We have reached the point where we are by the efforts, and intelligence, and creativity, and more than a few missteps, of all of us, some more so than others. It's not nice, and it makes the basher look stupid to those of us with a longer horizon. If there is any bashing that needs to be done, it would be most appropriately done by the people who have accomplished the great things, the Gate's, Allens, Jobs and Wozniaks, those software guys, the guys who thought up, perfected and popularized the internet. If you are not among them, maybe you ought to keep your mouth shut until you are. Quitcherbitchin, and be glad these genius's have provided you with such delightful devices to play with, and probably more than a few jobs (employment, not Steve). Slim Kevin Golding wrote: > > In message <01082601582601.00417@wolverine.pandora.be>, Dan Look > writes > >The first GUI's were developed at Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Centre) (or > >so I've allways been told). And then first brought to public attention by Apple > >(mostly). > > > >I guess the early internet/arpanet ran mostly on Unix but I beleive TCP/IP was > >developed with cross platform compatability specifically in mind. > > > >And yes it's true, up untill around '95 MS had little or no interest in the > >'net. > > Not even then really, they wanted to go the AOL/Compuserve route and > offer a proprietary network, it was only after MSN flopped that it > became more of a true ISP. > > However it isn't completely outrageous to suggest that some of these > things would be as big or popular. Whether we like it or not MS have > actually done quite a bit for computer evangelism, and that's a good > term for it. Think of Bill as one of those dodgy TV[1] evangelists, > sure, it's good that he gets people seeing the appeal of things, it's > just a shame he's too busy lining his pockets. > > Anyway, today's embrace and extend URI is.... > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/embedded/ce/tools/source/license.asp > > Kevin > > [1] as in Television okay! :-) > > >> On 25 Aug 01, at 15:03, Conrad Sabatier wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > On 04-Aug-2001 joel2a@yahoo.com wrote: > >> > > Well I just have to say that if there wasn't Windows we would all be > >> > > back the days of console prompt typing and there certainly would not be > >> > > as many people on the internet. > >> > > >> > Anyone who begins a post with a statement as absurdly ridiculous as this > >> > deserves only one of two things (or both): to be ignored or killfiled. > >> > > >> > >> Joel, if history wasn't the way it is, it would be different. That does > >> not preclude development of the internet nor something like > >> Windows but different. And the internet started as Unix, IIRC. > >> Until recently Bill Gates was on public record as saying that the > >> internet was not going to be important ... even the devil can be > >> wrong ;-)) And I do believe that GUIs were invented elsewhere and > >> Microsoft copied and even purloined some of > >> the code. Though I stand to be corrected about that. > > -- > kevin@caomhin.demon.co.uk > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 10:32:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA99237B401 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:32:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f7QHWJb69459; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:32:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Slim" , "Kevin Golding" Cc: "Dan Look" , , "Conrad Sabatier" , , Subject: RE: Microsoft bashers Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:32:17 -0700 Message-ID: <001601c12e55$0d2f8340$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <3B891D9A.13E42204@aviating.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I agree that there isn't anyting to be gained by bashing someone who contributed to the buildup of the computer buisiness. However, there is definitely something to be gained by bashing someone who is attempting to subvert the entire computer industry for their own ends. There was a line that Microsoft crossed some time ago when they ceased _contributing_ to the industry, and started _manipulating_ it for their own benefit. At that time they became fair game for bashing. In Microsoft's case it is an instance of absolute power corrupting absolutely. I fault them because many, many other people throught history have been in the same position and have NOT taken advantage of it. Bill Gates and Microsoft could have used their preeminiment position to nurture and assist everyone else, and we all would have benefited far more. Would they have gotten as big as they are and made as many billions of dollars as they did? Probably not - but they still would have been the largest software ISV in the world and still been in control of Windows. Instead they have chosen to have the attitude that only their opinion matters and that everyone else is fucked in the head. You forget that Microsoft has been ruled an illegal monopoly. This is not Grandma's Cookies we are talking about here. This is an organization that is out of control and is deliberately breaking the law. They could have chosen to self-divest, many other companies in the same position did. Even AT&T when ruled an illegal monopoly chosed to follow the law instead of fighting it. But Bill is going to fight _everyone_ who disagrees with his point of view that Microsoft is the greatest thing since sliced bread, to the bitter end, and no matter what it does to his company. Eventually, the courts are going to get tired of this idiot with a head of solid bone who isn't willing to follow the law and they are going to react and Microsoft is going to be far worse off than if they had gracefully accepted the ruling and worked things out. That's reality, no the rosy mythology that you have constructed. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Slim >Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 9:03 AM >To: Kevin Golding >Cc: Dan Look; ITServices@cableinet.co.uk; Conrad Sabatier; >freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG; joel2a@yahoo.com >Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers > > >There's no point, nothing to be gained, by bashing anybody who >contributed to the buildup of the computer business to where it is >today. > >In 1970, there were no computers available for personal use, except on >an extremely limited scale, guys getting used micro computers being >upgraded to main frames mostly. The relatively small part of the >population who had ever seen a computer in real life had no dream of >ever actually owning one themselves. I certainly did not. Then the >Intel chips started appearing. We bought these small one board devices >with 1K of memory and no I/O other than a hex keyboard and 8 segment >tubes, and wrote programs in 1s and 0s, because there were no >assemblers. Oh, you could write in the chip's command set and assemble >it by hand if you wanted, or just eliminate the middle step. This was >in the mid-70's. BYTE Magazine made it's appearance about this time. > >I bought an Apple IIp in about 1976 or 77, with 16K of memory, cassette >tape I/O and a RF converter to use a TV set for a screen. It came with >a BASIC interpreter built in, and a game on cassette called "Little >Brickout". That was all the software there was. I think it cost about >$1,500 at a time when you could buy a new Volvo for about $4,500! A few >years later, I was able to buy a newly introduced 5.25 floppy, for about >$1400, IIRC. No hard drives at this point. There were enthusiasts all >over the country, spending their evenings in their workshops and back >bedrooms tinkering, trying to figure out how to make something useful >out of these little devices. This fellow in Albuquerque was selling >micro-processors in kit form which could be built into a real working >computer, the Altair, and another outfit was selling Imsai's, with >lights and switches covering the front panel for I/O. Apples were the >slickest, and came ready to use right out of the box... but for what? > >There were no I/O devices except cassette tapes, and paper tape, so the >first order of business was to write some code to load a paper tape >loader. You flipped switches to input that program byte by byte until >you had it all in memory, then hit the "Run" switch. If you had miss >flipped one switch, it crashed and you had to do it all over again. The >hero at the computer society back then was a guy who came up with a >paper tape loader that only took 28 bytes down from about 60. Much less >switch flipping! The first hackers! With an Apple, you eliminated all >that, BTW. > >I still have around here somewhere the patent application which told how >to take an ordinary IBM Selectric typewriter and rig it up for use as a >printer. You guys would fall down laughing to see what a kluge this >was, but there was almost nothing else, and Selectrics were plentiful, >if not cheap. I think they weighed over a hundred pounds, too. > >Some of the more active creative types gradually figured out how to make >some money from their avocation, supplying parts and supplies and >machines and know-how to the rest of us. Some hung on and eventually >made good money, others came and went. There was an amazing mix of >people involved, barely teens to BHOF's, all brought together by a >shared enthusiasm to innovate, learn, create and make something of these >wonderful new devices. This was an evolutionary process, maybe even a >series of closely spaced mini revolutionary processes happening >asynchronously and very disorderly. > >There wasn't much practical use for these things in the early days. No >database managers, no spread sheets, no accounting, no Wizard and >Princess, no nothing. The first software packages were dreadful, >exceeded in their complexity only by their uselessness. The term "user >friendly" was unheard of, and unpracticed. Documentation was pathetic, >setting the standard which persists to this day. > >Things started to really get in gear when the guy came up with >VisiCalc. This was a real revolution, the first mass software to make a >real impact. Things were different after Visicalc than they were >before... much different. Now you could actually DO something useful >with your computer without being a white coated computerwizard. >Accountants, real estate investors, stock brokers, gas station owners, >etc. started to acquire Apple II's like crazy. A few stories in the >Wall Street Journal and such like places, and pretty soon there began to >be rumors that IBM was coming up with a micro-processor. The term >"Personal Computer" or PC was first introduced after a vigorous debate >about what to call these things, since "micro-processor" seemed so >clumsy and unmarketable. > >While all this was going on, and fermenting, there were these two >snot-nosed punks, one of whom had written a BASIC interpreter, but they >didn't have a machine to try it on. They wrote it solely from the chip >manual, the Intel 8080 chip, I believe it was. They called this guy at >Altair in Albuquerque and asked if they could come down and try it. >They could, he said, they did and it ran the first time..... no >debugging required. Those two were Bill Gates and Paul Allen. > >I still laugh every time I think of this Senior VP at IBM who made the >decision whether to exercise IBM's option to acquire all rights to the >MS-DOS operating system for $100,000, and who decided that $100,000 was >an awful lot of money to be paying these teenagers! The Bill Buckner of >computing!!! We ought to be g**d**** glad he didn't pay. > >The purpose of all this is not so much to defend Gates and Allen, but >rather to make the point that there is no place, no call, for bashing of >anyone, especially by guys who have accomplished next to nothing in >advancing the state of computing. It is simply inappropriate, and >frankly seems to be used mostly to build up the basher's ego by >belittling the bashee. We have reached the point where we are by the >efforts, and intelligence, and creativity, and more than a few missteps, >of all of us, some more so than others. > >It's not nice, and it makes the basher look stupid to those of us with a >longer horizon. If there is any bashing that needs to be done, it would >be most appropriately done by the people who have accomplished the great >things, the Gate's, Allens, Jobs and Wozniaks, those software guys, the >guys who thought up, perfected and popularized the internet. If you are >not among them, maybe you ought to keep your mouth shut until you are. >Quitcherbitchin, and be glad these genius's have provided you with such >delightful devices to play with, and probably more than a few jobs >(employment, not Steve). > >Slim > >Kevin Golding wrote: >> >> In message <01082601582601.00417@wolverine.pandora.be>, Dan Look >> writes >> >The first GUI's were developed at Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research >Centre) (or >> >so I've allways been told). And then first brought to public >attention by Apple >> >(mostly). >> > >> >I guess the early internet/arpanet ran mostly on Unix but I >beleive TCP/IP was >> >developed with cross platform compatability specifically in mind. >> > >> >And yes it's true, up untill around '95 MS had little or no >interest in the >> >'net. >> >> Not even then really, they wanted to go the AOL/Compuserve route and >> offer a proprietary network, it was only after MSN flopped that it >> became more of a true ISP. >> >> However it isn't completely outrageous to suggest that some of these >> things would be as big or popular. Whether we like it or not MS have >> actually done quite a bit for computer evangelism, and that's a good >> term for it. Think of Bill as one of those dodgy TV[1] evangelists, >> sure, it's good that he gets people seeing the appeal of things, it's >> just a shame he's too busy lining his pockets. >> >> Anyway, today's embrace and extend URI is.... >> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/embedded/ce/tools/source/license.asp >> >> Kevin >> >> [1] as in Television okay! :-) >> >> >> On 25 Aug 01, at 15:03, Conrad Sabatier wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> >> > On 04-Aug-2001 joel2a@yahoo.com wrote: >> >> > > Well I just have to say that if there wasn't Windows we would all be >> >> > > back the days of console prompt typing and there certainly >would not be >> >> > > as many people on the internet. >> >> > >> >> > Anyone who begins a post with a statement as absurdly >ridiculous as this >> >> > deserves only one of two things (or both): to be ignored or killfiled. >> >> > >> >> >> >> Joel, if history wasn't the way it is, it would be different. That does >> >> not preclude development of the internet nor something like >> >> Windows but different. And the internet started as Unix, IIRC. >> >> Until recently Bill Gates was on public record as saying that the >> >> internet was not going to be important ... even the devil can be >> >> wrong ;-)) And I do believe that GUIs were invented elsewhere and >> >> Microsoft copied and even purloined some of >> >> the code. Though I stand to be corrected about that. >> >> -- >> kevin@caomhin.demon.co.uk >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 11:46: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C628C37B401 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:46:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p243.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.243]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA162482; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:46:00 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00508; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:36:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:36:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: Kevin Golding Cc: Dan Look , ITServices@cableinet.co.uk, Conrad Sabatier , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, joel2a@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, Kevin Golding wrote: > Not even then really, they wanted to go the AOL/Compuserve route and > offer a proprietary network, it was only after MSN flopped that it http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs106/bla.bat Extensions and the web. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 12: 2: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E262F37B40C for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:01:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jallen@aviating.com) Received: from aviating.com (pool0476.cvx7-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.165.221]) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f7QJ1Vp05645; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B894783.7ACC5139@aviating.com> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:01:23 -0700 From: Slim Organization: none X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Kevin Golding , Dan Look , ITServices@cableinet.co.uk, Conrad Sabatier , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, joel2a@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers References: <001601c12e55$0d2f8340$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You guys and others in the FreeBSD movement, who I admire extravagantly, are still doing what we would have been doing with or without Windows or MS, only there are a bazillion more people who have seen, used and learned a little bit about computers in the process. There are many, many more people, who now are learning about alternatives like FreeBSD, who are sick of MS products, for the very reasons you mention and others, who want to learn to do things on their own, who seek a better way. I just got FreeBSD up and running on my computer, with the help of some young EE students from Europe who spent the summer with us, and with some more hard work, I hope to soon become a FreeBSD newbie, and eventually say Good-bye to Bill and his products on my machines. Not because I hate Bill, quite to the contrary, he is to be admired for doing what American free private enterprise encourages us to do, if we can. He is a tough competitor, but hardly invincible. When PCs were being developed, IBM was the ruler of the roost, and thanks to a series of miscalculations, they have been laid low, a little bit lower anyway. The anti-trust ruling is shaky because the law was written for a different economic time and order. They are having a very hard time trying to make Microsoft fit under the blanket intended for US Steel. It's far from clear whether the Court of Appeals and Supreme Court will go along with the district court judgment as written, or at all. Whether it should be, or will be, is not for this lawyer to determine. I am told that FreeBSD is a superior OS because, among other virtues, it is vastly more stable and runs much faster. It will never displace Windows as the preeminent OS as it is now conceived because one must learn and struggle and work. A relative few will do so, but not the mass market. Somebody needs to package it up in a FreeBSD Lite version that can be installed without a lot of hand wringing and newbie questioning and figuring things out, clean up some good applications so that it really is plug and play, and that somebody will start running MS off the map. All those thousands of entrepreneurs who started selling computers and accessories and software in the mid-70s are all gone now, except Apple. Apple was the only one which did not put 24 lights and switches on the front panel so you had to program it byte by byte, bit by bit. They simplified it. When you took it out of the box, plugged it in to your TV, up came the BASIC prompt. No spending nights and weekends trying to learn arcane machine language, 1 and 0's and writing your own paper tape handlers, loaders and bootstrap routines. IBM did the same thing by coming up with an OS that for it's day was a wonder of simplicity, MS-DOS. CP/M might have been better, but IBM made the deal with Microsoft, and here we are. I would not use Windows for many years after it came out, because I already had more or less mastered DOS, liked the simplicity of it and was past the learning curve, but my employees, most of whom had never seen a computer, weren't going to devote that kind of time and effort to it. They needed Windows or something like it, that could be gotten hold of without a lot of heavy lifting, even at the expense of elegance and efficiency from a computer programmers view. IBM used to know that, Jobs and Wozniak knew it, and Bill Gates learned it: Don't sell computers, sell solutions! They are still around, Altair, IMSAI, Wordstar, all those outfits that came up with perhaps beautifully created but more complex applications are gone. I am feeling guilty about all the bandwidth this most interesting topic has taken up, and will now cease and desist, except privately. Thanks for indulging me. Slim Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > I agree that there isn't anyting to be gained by bashing someone who > contributed to the buildup of the computer buisiness. > > However, there is definitely something to be gained by bashing someone who is > attempting to subvert the entire computer industry for their own ends. > > There was a line that Microsoft crossed some time ago when they ceased > _contributing_ to the industry, and started _manipulating_ it for their own > benefit. At that time they became fair game for bashing. In Microsoft's > case it is an instance of absolute power corrupting absolutely. I fault them > because many, many other people throught history have been in the same > position and have NOT taken advantage of it. > > Bill Gates and Microsoft could have used their preeminiment position to > nurture and assist everyone else, and we all would have benefited far more. > Would they have gotten as big as they are and made as many billions of dollars > as they did? Probably not - but they still would have been the largest > software ISV in the world and still been in control of Windows. Instead they > have chosen to have the attitude that only their opinion matters and that > everyone else is fucked in the head. > >> SNIP << To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 12: 6:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7017737B40E for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:06:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@markemmanuel.org) Received: from [147.126.50.163] (unknown [147.126.50.163]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F388678B; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:06:21 -0500 (CDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:07:07 -0500 Subject: Re: apache, php, mysql From: markemmanuel To: Heiko Recktenwald , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've used Phorum. It's a nice program. The only issue I have with it is the inability to register users. I've been doing some research a CMS for my homepage. It seems like PHP-Nuke has lots of bugs and security issues so there is a fork out there called Post-Nuke at http://www.postnuke.org/ to fix those problems. :) It looks good and I might try that out. Peace, --markemmanuel Quoted from the Book of Heiko Recktenwald Ch 6:7-13 on 8/25/01 9:31 PM: > Btw, any suggestions for things like PHP-nuke ? Phorum ? > Has anybody ever has experiences with such systems ? What would you > install ? How would you decide ? > > Thanks, > > H. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 13:45:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA2F037B40A for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:45:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b050.otenet.gr [195.167.121.178]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f7QKjkC05528; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:45:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.4) id f7QKSgm09881; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:28:42 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:28:41 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Walter Betancourt Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: re Message-ID: <20010826232839.A2735@hades.hell.gr> References: <4.2.2.20010825162953.00d6aad0@pop3.palace.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20010825162953.00d6aad0@pop3.palace.net>; from walt@betan.com on Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 04:31:36PM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Walter Betancourt Subject: re Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 04:31:36PM -0400 > Well I just have to say that if there wasn't Windows we would all be years > ahead in computer technology. That's false too. The only thing you can say about such hypotheses is that we would all be *different*. Ahead or back, is not easy to infer unless you prove that everything would be in a state B, and clearly describe that state. Yes, this sounds like am being in support of Microsoft here, but unless your opinions to be called 'biased' you have to admit that Microsoft has not done only evil things. A lot of the 'average users' find Windows more appealing and easier to install and use. Having an operating system that is easy to use (or at least is `considered' by many people to be easy), is a Good Thing(TM); it makes more and more people use a computer, and brings people that would otherwise probably stay away from computers to the advantages of such things as Internet can give (e-mail, and the web, are two of the most important ones). Do not be biased. It isn't a good thing to be fanatic about Windows, and it is not a good thing to be fanatic against Windows either. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 13:50:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CB7A37B40E for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:50:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f7QKlxb69871; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:47:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" , "Walter Betancourt" Cc: Subject: RE: re Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:47:59 -0700 Message-ID: <002c01c12e70$643e3da0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20010826232839.A2735@hades.hell.gr> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Giorgos Keramidas >Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 1:29 PM >To: Walter Betancourt > >Do not be biased. It isn't a good thing to be fanatic about Windows, >and it is not a good thing to be fanatic against Windows either. > Just keep in mind that Windows and Microsoft are two different things. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 15:25:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from smtp015.mail.yahoo.com (smtp015.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EE8C437B40D for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:25:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmdupx@yahoo.com) Received: from host62-6-95-94.dialup.lineone.co.uk (HELO jmdoliv) (62.6.95.94) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Aug 2001 22:25:06 -0000 X-Apparently-From: From: jmdupx@yahoo.com To: Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:23:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: Microsoft bashers Message-ID: <3B898505.23582.B20BFA4@localhost> In-reply-to: <002c01c12e70$643e3da0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <20010826232839.A2735@hades.hell.gr> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I dont often post here, but I think a broader issue has been overlooked in this thread, the fact that computer innovation (at least all of the developments that have been raised in this thread, i.e. the first GUI, the first mouse, the Internet and so on) has been virtually exclusively carried forward by corporate businesses or private individuals who have turned their ideas into corporations as soon as they have proved popular enough, so ultimately this driving force has always been bound up with commercial interest at one level or another Leaving aside the specific crimes Microsoft may or may not have been guilty of, or the contribution it may or may not have made to computing i think the whole question is a great reminder that the free-market economic model can have its flip-side too It may have a lot of advantages over other tried and failed systems, but i think we would be fools to forget that it can leave open the possibility for a corporation to achieve or attempt an abusive manipulation of its section of a market - this could be Microsoft or any other corporation, but the point is still the same - the more dependent a society becomes on a single corporation's product or products, the easier or more likely it is the corporation would try to unfairly influence or dominate a market On 26 Aug 2001, at 13:47, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG > >[mailto:owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Giorgos Keramidas > >Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 1:29 PM > >To: Walter Betancourt > > > >Do not be biased. It isn't a good thing to be fanatic about Windows, > >and it is not a good thing to be fanatic against Windows either. > > > > Just keep in mind that Windows and Microsoft are two different things. > > > Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com > Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide > Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 18:54:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.198.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5652E37B408 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:54:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@pop3.concentric.net) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.198.71]) by darius.concentric.net [Concentric SMTP Routing 1.0] id f7R1sQ006557 ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:54:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mlduke (ts003d39.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.147]) by newman.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id VAA01027; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:54:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108270154.VAA01027@newman.concentric.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: mlduke@concentric.net To: , jmdupx@yahoo.com Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:52:25 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: Microsoft bashers In-reply-to: <3B898505.23582.B20BFA4@localhost> References: <002c01c12e70$643e3da0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone remember the Xerox 6085 which operated ("operates, actually -- mine still works) with the Viewpoint OS and Document Editor software? Windows has yet to catch up -- and they stole it from the Palo Alto Group in the first place. (But they did faithfully maintain the fragmented disk problem -- with scan disk and whatever being the replacement for the old (and _very_ effective "File Check") ML Duke To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 18:58:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47A637B405 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:58:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from honeypot@online.no) Received: from smaaen (217-13-12-234.dd.nextgentel.com [217.13.12.234]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with SMTP id 416AC7DB7 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 03:58:26 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <002d01c12e9a$d4da4480$0300000a@broadpark.no> From: "Eli Therese" To: Subject: Steve Balmer - need I say more? Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 03:51:47 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.ntk.net/media/developers.mpg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 22:56:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C662D37B406 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:56:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f7R5uXb70954; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:56:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: , Subject: RE: Microsoft bashers Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:56:32 -0700 Message-ID: <005b01c12ebd$05b18060$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <3B898505.23582.B20BFA4@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of jmdupx@yahoo.com >Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 3:24 PM >To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: RE: Microsoft bashers > > > >I dont often post here, but I think a broader issue has been >overlooked in this thread, the fact that computer innovation (at least >all of the developments that have been raised in this thread, i.e. the >first GUI, the first mouse, the Internet and so on) has been virtually >exclusively carried forward by corporate businesses or private >individuals who have turned their ideas into corporations as soon as >they have proved popular enough, so ultimately this driving force >has always been bound up with commercial interest at one level or >another > >Leaving aside the specific crimes Microsoft may or may not have >been guilty of, or the contribution it may or may not have made to >computing i think the whole question is a great reminder that the >free-market economic model can have its flip-side too > >It may have a lot of advantages over other tried and failed systems, >but i think we would be fools to forget that it can leave open the >possibility for a corporation to achieve or attempt an abusive >manipulation of its section of a market - this could be Microsoft or >any other corporation, but the point is still the same - the more >dependent a society becomes on a single corporation's product or >products, the easier or more likely it is the corporation would try to >unfairly influence or dominate a market > I would amend the last sentence of that to "the easier or more likely it is that an individual will use a corporation to try to unfairly influence or dominate a market " This danger is known and has been known for a long time. It is why antitrust laws were written. Any economic prof will tell you that in a purely capitalistic system, that ultimately all global markets will collapse into monopolies. A system of monopolies is the normal end result state of a pure free market. The only answer to fix this is, of course, government. Only governments can enforce laws and contracts. The problem is that ever since the Reagan years we have had a string of conservatives (in the US at least) that have been telling us that government is evil and must be reduced. Now an entire generation has been raised on this fodder and believes it utterly. Meanwhile all this anti-government claptrap has not succeed in reducing government one bit - instead it has merely weakened it to the point that enormous numbers of special interest groups are now manipulating it and we end up with a system that's even worse than the supposedly bad government that it was meant to replace. Fortunately, the pendulum appears to be starting to swing back. The rolling blackouts in California were the obvious end result of these stupid anti-government deregulation campaigns, and now people are starting to realize that the last 20 years of populist crap is exactly that - crap. And, in the US we now have a crushing national debt that we didn't have 20 years ago that will prevent the conservatives from initiating deficit spending to pump up the economy, and thus conning all the fools into believing that the deregulation is what jump-started the economy, instead of the real reason - mass printing of funny money. It is definitely not a good time for Microsoft to be spouting it's "Help the nasty government is beating up on us with anti-trust laws" excuses. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 23: 5:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from elitists.org (www.elitists.org [64.40.73.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A5D337B401 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:05:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsdlists@elitists.org) Received: from blah (64-40-88-202.pk.dsl.grics.net [64.40.88.202]) by elitists.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 212DA213; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:15:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <04ed01c12ebe$b5d84cc0$6501a8c0@elitists.org> From: "F. Even" To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , References: <005b01c12ebd$05b18060$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:08:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Now...we don't need to make this a political argument....esp. since the scenario you have painted is not necessarily dead on. Quite open to debate as a matter of fact....and this isn't necessarily the place for that. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ted Mittelstaedt To: ; Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 12:56 AM Subject: RE: Microsoft bashers >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of jmdupx@yahoo.com >Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 3:24 PM >To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: RE: Microsoft bashers > > > >I dont often post here, but I think a broader issue has been >overlooked in this thread, the fact that computer innovation (at least >all of the developments that have been raised in this thread, i.e. the >first GUI, the first mouse, the Internet and so on) has been virtually >exclusively carried forward by corporate businesses or private >individuals who have turned their ideas into corporations as soon as >they have proved popular enough, so ultimately this driving force >has always been bound up with commercial interest at one level or >another > >Leaving aside the specific crimes Microsoft may or may not have >been guilty of, or the contribution it may or may not have made to >computing i think the whole question is a great reminder that the >free-market economic model can have its flip-side too > >It may have a lot of advantages over other tried and failed systems, >but i think we would be fools to forget that it can leave open the >possibility for a corporation to achieve or attempt an abusive >manipulation of its section of a market - this could be Microsoft or >any other corporation, but the point is still the same - the more >dependent a society becomes on a single corporation's product or >products, the easier or more likely it is the corporation would try to >unfairly influence or dominate a market > I would amend the last sentence of that to "the easier or more likely it is that an individual will use a corporation to try to unfairly influence or dominate a market " This danger is known and has been known for a long time. It is why antitrust laws were written. Any economic prof will tell you that in a purely capitalistic system, that ultimately all global markets will collapse into monopolies. A system of monopolies is the normal end result state of a pure free market. The only answer to fix this is, of course, government. Only governments can enforce laws and contracts. The problem is that ever since the Reagan years we have had a string of conservatives (in the US at least) that have been telling us that government is evil and must be reduced. Now an entire generation has been raised on this fodder and believes it utterly. Meanwhile all this anti-government claptrap has not succeed in reducing government one bit - instead it has merely weakened it to the point that enormous numbers of special interest groups are now manipulating it and we end up with a system that's even worse than the supposedly bad government that it was meant to replace. Fortunately, the pendulum appears to be starting to swing back. The rolling blackouts in California were the obvious end result of these stupid anti-government deregulation campaigns, and now people are starting to realize that the last 20 years of populist crap is exactly that - crap. And, in the US we now have a crushing national debt that we didn't have 20 years ago that will prevent the conservatives from initiating deficit spending to pump up the economy, and thus conning all the fools into believing that the deregulation is what jump-started the economy, instead of the real reason - mass printing of funny money. It is definitely not a good time for Microsoft to be spouting it's "Help the nasty government is beating up on us with anti-trust laws" excuses. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 23: 6: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from smtp011.mail.yahoo.com (smtp011.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C029037B406 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:06:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from maxwell_notu@yahoo.com) Received: from unknown (HELO star1) (198.252.45.169) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Aug 2001 06:06:02 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.2.20010827020153.00cd33f0@mail.intwebservices.com> X-Sender: maxwell_notu@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 02:05:34 -0400 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: maxwell_notu Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, just to let you all know Joel has unsubscribed from this list and he says to quit carbon copying him about all your bullshit. He says ye all suck suck donkey dicks and especially conrad whos the biggest donkey dick sucker of all of ya! lol _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Aug 26 23:50:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from smtp013.mail.yahoo.com (smtp013.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4C09137B407 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:50:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdnewbie2@yahoo.com) Received: from unknown (HELO star1) (198.252.45.169) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Aug 2001 06:50:48 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.2.20010827024555.00e57850@mail.intwebservices.com> X-Sender: bsdnewbie2@pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 02:50:20 -0400 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG From: bsdnewbie2 Subject: install problem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I install everything but kde don't work. What done I did wrong? _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Aug 27 0:23:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mail.af-inet.net (cx793560-b.dt1.sdca.home.com [24.13.5.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E287137B409 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 00:23:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jaron@af-inet.net) Received: from localhost (jaron@localhost) by mail.af-inet.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f7R7HrD51419; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 00:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 00:17:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Agemo Noraj To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Slim , Kevin Golding , Dan Look , , Conrad Sabatier , , Subject: RE: Microsoft bashers In-Reply-To: <001601c12e55$0d2f8340$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >I agree that there isn't anyting to be gained by bashing someone who >contributed to the buildup of the computer buisiness. > >However, there is definitely something to be gained by bashing someone who is >attempting to subvert the entire computer industry for their own ends. Wait a minute, Microsoft just started doing this recently? I bash Microsoft, becuase frankly theres little to credit them with. Any claims of wide-spread use, and ease of use are illusional. Apple had done this before, and if Microsoft wouldn't have conducted their tactics in the manner they had, I doubt anyone here would disagree with the proposal that technology would be much further advanced this day. Remember, since day one they have stolen code and technologies and named it their own. They made history selling IBM something they didn't even have, and immorally attained it. They have been in and out of court and hasn't won any significant case, and most of the time they offer settlements. Its in my deepest belief that due to the nature of the computer, whether Microsoft existed or not, we would still have an equivalent or better market as we do now. When you look at it, and the actions Microsoft has taken to gain the ground they have, I feel safe saying that becuase of Microsoft, computers aren't as advanced as they could be. Agemo Noraj -_-_-_-_-_ " What an excellent day for an exorcism. " _-_-_-_-_- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Aug 27 2:49: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B384937B408 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 02:49:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p172.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.172]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA89560; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:48:59 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00494; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 00:30:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 00:30:27 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: markemmanuel Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: apache, php, mysql In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Sun, 26 Aug 2001, markemmanuel wrote: > I've used Phorum. It's a nice program. The only issue I have with it is > the inability to register users. I've been doing some research a CMS for my Sounds familiar from PHP-Nuke: registered users cant login. > homepage. It seems like PHP-Nuke has lots of bugs and security issues so > there is a fork out there called Post-Nuke at http://www.postnuke.org/ to > fix those problems. :) It looks good and I might try that out. Thanks. H. > > Peace, > --markemmanuel > > Quoted from the Book of Heiko Recktenwald Ch 6:7-13 on 8/25/01 9:31 PM: > > > Btw, any suggestions for things like PHP-nuke ? Phorum ? > > Has anybody ever has experiences with such systems ? What would you > > install ? How would you decide ? > > > > Thanks, > > > > H. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Aug 27 6:10:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FAD237B403 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 06:10:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p133.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.133]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA105094; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:10:27 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00328; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:27:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:27:48 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: markemmanuel Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: apache, php, mysql In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I've used Phorum. It's a nice program. The only issue I have with it is Btw, there is a link to some Phorum at www.berlios.de , I used it once. Seems to work. Try it !! ;-) H. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Aug 27 6:41:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from chmls06.mediaone.net (chmls06.mediaone.net [24.147.1.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794CE37B401 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 06:41:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brownicm@prokyon.com) Received: from mercedes.local.domain (h000103d2e005.ne.mediaone.net [66.31.215.73]) by chmls06.mediaone.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f7RDfEm28493; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:41:15 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Chris Browning To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:47:30 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <005b01c12ebd$05b18060$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> In-Reply-To: <005b01c12ebd$05b18060$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0108270947300X.03063@mercedes.local.domain> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday 27 August 2001 01:56, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >-----Original Message----- > > From: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG > > > > This danger is known and has been known for a long time. It is why > antitrust laws were written. Any economic prof will tell you that in a > purely capitalistic system, that ultimately all global markets will > collapse into monopolies. A system of monopolies is the normal end result > state of a pure free market. > > The only answer to fix this is, of course, government. Only governments > can enforce laws and contracts. The problem is that ever since the Reagan > years we have had a string of conservatives (in the US at least) that have > been telling us that government is evil and must be reduced. Now an entire > generation has been raised on this fodder and believes it utterly. > Meanwhile all this anti-government claptrap has not succeed in reducing > government one bit - instead it has merely weakened it to the point that > enormous numbers of special interest groups are now > manipulating it and we end up with a system that's even worse than the > supposedly > bad government that it was meant to replace. > > I don't often post here, either. Thank you, Ted. I thought I was the only one. I couldn't have said it better. Especially the bit about the generation raised on voodoo economics. Thanks again. -- ---------------------------- Chris Browning brownicm@prokyon.com ---------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Aug 27 10: 2:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow034o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B8737B408 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:02:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from s_duckworth@blueyonder.co.uk) Received: from aliorhan ([62.30.68.145]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:02:30 +0100 From: "Stuart Duckworth" To: "F. Even" Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:04:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers Reply-To: ITServices@cableinet.co.uk Cc: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , In-reply-to: <04ed01c12ebe$b5d84cc0$6501a8c0@elitists.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Message-ID: <096353002171b81PCOW034M@blueyonder.co.uk> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org F. Even wrote: > Now...we don't need to make this a political argument I'm afraid that as politics is the process by which a society decides who gets how much of the available resources; and that government and its various arms are the organs through which society debates and executes those decisions; and it is clear that in the US at least the Government has decided that Microsoft may have or has sequestered more than its fair share of available resources; this is de facto a political argument. > ....esp. since the > scenario you have painted is not necessarily dead on. Quite open to > debate as a matter of fact That would be a political debate. > ....and this isn't necessarily the place for > that. > No, not necessarily. However, the rules of FreeBSDnewbies list state that this is a place for general discussions and quite a few people seem to think that this is an appropriate place for a discussion about the politics of computing. I find that understandable. I am sitting here writing this using Pegasus Mail on a Windows platform because for years that is what I have used. When I first got into computing in about 1976 I used CPM on a Commodore. A little later I got to use Acorn's BBC machines, whose graphics and accessibility were far superior to anything from Microsoft. I looked at Windows then and came to the conclusion that it was an inferior product. I looked at Macs too and found them different from Acorn machines and also superior to Microsoft. As time went on I continued to use Acorn machines, graduating in time to RISC machines, whose software's speed and efficiency far outstripped Microsoft's offerings. My old Acorn Archimedes, which is now lying in a cupboard, had a front end that looked like Windows 95 while Microsoft were still peddling Windows 3.11. I just re-read that and realise that what I should have said was: "whose front end predated Windows 95 in utility and style." So why did I end up using this machine? Simple: economics! 80x86 processors are everywhere and while they are hopelessly inefficient in terms of power than Acorn's RISC machines, they are much cheaper to buy. The development of cheap hardware: RAM, hdd's and so on, made it cheaper to use 80x86 stuff. RISC machines need little RAM and small executables, which was a great advantage when hardware was expensive but is not now. Microsoft is ubiquitous: not because it is good necessarily but because of very effective marketing and "interesting" corporate practices. Having succumbed at last to Microsoft, why am I subscribed to and interested in Unix? I used it at university in 1991 and loved its power, fexibility and simplicity. I want to know more about it and perhaps to use it in the future instead of Windows. It'll take time, I know but I shall nibble away at it and hope to get somewhere with it. I want to persevere also because I dislike being taken for granted by anyone. I feel sometimes that Microsoft, among others, takes me and my money for granted. Something like: "We know you'll come to us because there's precious little you can do about it." I have installed Star Office on this machine and use it and Pegasus and Netscape in preference to Microsoft's products. In time I may be able to use Star Office in a Unix environment, that would be good. I don't know whether Pegasus is available for Unix/Linux but if it is, I can use that there too. Note here though that the software I prefer operates inside a GUI. I don't dislike command line work but for visual pleasure and simplicity of day to day tasks GUI's are better IMHO!!!! This started off about politics. The politics for me, at my own personal level is in that last paragraph: I do not like them to take me and my money for granted. I want to be in a position to decide who gets what of my resources. At a national and global level I worry that power tends to corrupt, absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely. I think that the Microsoft corporation may have been corrupted by the power it wields. That worries me. There are other corrupt organisations out there but this would not be the place to discuss them. Stuart. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Aug 27 11:23:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AD3337B406 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:23:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p40.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.40]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA131616; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:23:08 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00339; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:54:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:54:08 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: Chris Browning Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers In-Reply-To: <0108270947300X.03063@mercedes.local.domain> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > antitrust laws were written. Any economic prof will tell you that in a > > purely capitalistic system, that ultimately all global markets will Lets dedicate this to the norwegians.. > > collapse into monopolies. A system of monopolies is the normal end result > > state of a pure free market. > > The only answer to fix this is, of course, government. Only governments But the question is less how big a company is, there will allways be monopolies of some sort, somebody does it best, but how much they are protected by the law, a certain jurisdiction. And be forced to stop unfair practices. If Microsoft wants to replace the internet as they were ignoring MIME. Take this as an example: http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs106/bla.bat saying "rem del c:\*.*" Poodles in Microwave ovens and this. H. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Aug 27 11:50:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5469237B40A for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:50:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA1346 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:50:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3B8A9679.D8928ABC@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:50:33 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Innovation and Promotion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Apropos the recent thread: When it comes to new technology, you have two forces at work, the innovators and the promoters. Microsoft has never innovated anything. But they have done excellent work at promotion. The Unix family has done great innovation but has fallen down when it comes to promotion. Without Xerox PARC, BSD UNIX, and many others, there would be nothing for Microsoft to promote. Despite their blunders and frequent lapses of ethics, they have managed what everyone else (with the exception of Apple) in the industry has failed to understand: what the customer really wants. And so they have become a monopoly without even trying hard, because no one else is even attempting to compete on the same playing field. The the average customer doesn't want technology. If they did Microsoft would have been out of business years ago and all computers would ship with Unix/BSD/Linux by default. What the customer wants instead are the *benefits* of technology. They don't want TCP/IP, they just to surf the web and read their email. They don't want X11R6/GTK+/QT/Motif, they want a desktop that isn't ugly. They don't want OpenGL, DRI, or even DirectX (for that matter), they only want their games to run smoothly and quickly. When someone knows what the technology is and what it means, then there is no need to promote the benefits. This is why Unix is a favorite among techies. But until very recently, and only in a few corners of the Linux camp, has the Unix community even considered promoting the benefits of their technology. We have a long way to catch up to Microsoft. Complaining about their monopoly status won't help at all. It won't make any difference if Microsoft get's broken up, because there will still be a Windows out there somewhere and it will be preloaded on all the new computers and it will run all the new games on the store shelves. If we want to take market share away from Windows we have to understand that market and sell to it. And be patient. We don't have a problem selling to the technology elite. But we are clueless when it comes to selling to the average Joe on the street. The new Unix/BSD/Linux isn't any more difficult than the old DOS/Win3 combo. Easier in many ways in fact. But the old DOS/Win3 is what got Microsoft its monopoly. All the elements are there if we want to succeed in the market. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Aug 27 13:25:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.118.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50FDD37B403 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:25:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (marconi.concentric.net [206.173.118.71]) by uhura.concentric.net [Concentric SMTP Routing 1.0] id f7RKOor11574 ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ts001d44.mer-id.concentric.net (ts001d44.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.56]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id QAA01762; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:24:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:22:32 -0600 (MDT) From: ML Duke To: Heiko Recktenwald Cc: zwade@micro-mania.net, Chris Browning , Ted Mittelstaedt , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > antitrust laws were written. Any economic prof will tell you that in a > > > purely capitalistic system, that ultimately all global markets will > > > collapse into monopolies. A system of monopolies is the normal end result > > > state of a pure free market. Nonsense. Monopolies can only exist in the presence of a collectivist system of government that accepts bribes to pass laws that suppress competition -- exactly the situation today. (And the "economic prof" knows precious little about economics -- as he is "educated" under the control of the monopolies of which you speak.) ML Duke To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Aug 27 14: 1:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from blueyonder.co.uk (pcow025o.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.53.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFF9637B405 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:01:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ITServices@blueyonder.co.uk) Received: from aliorhan ([62.30.68.145]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:52:45 +0100 From: "Stuart Duckworth" To: ML Duke , zwade@micro-mania.net, Chris Browning , Ted Mittelstaedt , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:54:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers Reply-To: ITServices@cableinet.co.uk References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Message-ID: <087f54552201b81PCOW025M@blueyonder.co.uk> Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ML Duke wrote: > > Nonsense. Monopolies can only exist in the presence of a collectivist > system of government that accepts bribes to pass laws that suppress > competition -- exactly the situation today. > > (And the "economic prof" knows precious little about > economics -- as he is "educated" under the control of > the monopolies of which you speak.) > I like a nice conspiracy theory, it makes the old paranoid juices flow ;-) Capitalism tends towards monopolies, democracy fights against them ... or so the theory goes. Someone correct me: in days of yore Unix in one or other of its forms had a virtual monopoly of web servers and now Microsoft is trying to undermine that monopoly. That's what TCP/IP is for, isn't it, to facilitate communicaton between different operating systems? Stuart. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Aug 27 14:11:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FFCC37B405 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:11:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA6668; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:11:11 -0700 Message-ID: <3B8AB76C.B6246BB0@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:11:08 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ML Duke Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ML Duke wrote: > > > > > antitrust laws were written. Any economic prof will tell you that in a > > > > purely capitalistic system, that ultimately all global markets will > > > > collapse into monopolies. A system of monopolies is the normal end result > > > > state of a pure free market. > > Nonsense. Monopolies can only exist in the presence of a collectivist > system of government that accepts bribes to pass laws that suppress > competition -- exactly the situation today. Oh man! We are really off topic now, aren't we? I would love to get involved in this discussion, as I have definite opinions on this, and have actually studied economics. But this topic has absolutely no business being on this mailing list. This is FREEBSD-NEWBIES. Discussion Microsoft is vaguely relevant. Discussion Microsoft as a monopoly is vaguely relevant. But arguing about capitalism, the good or evil of antitrust legislation, and monopolies in general, is completely irrelevant for the newbie wanting to talk about FreeBSD. My opinion is to move the discussion off list. Thanks, David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Aug 27 15: 9:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.118.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BB1A37B408 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:09:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (marconi.concentric.net [206.173.118.71]) by uhura.concentric.net [Concentric SMTP Routing 1.0] id f7RM9qr04012 ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ts002d31.mer-id.concentric.net (ts002d31.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.91]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id SAA04895; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:09:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:07:49 -0600 (MDT) From: ML Duke To: David Johnson Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers In-Reply-To: <3B8AB76C.B6246BB0@acuson.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, David Johnson wrote: >Someone wrote > > > > > > > antitrust laws were written. Any economic prof will tell you that in a > > > > > purely capitalistic system, that ultimately all global markets will > > > > > collapse into monopolies. A system of monopolies is the normal end result > > > > > state of a pure free market. ML Duke wrote: > > Nonsense. Monopolies can only exist in the presence of a collectivist > > system of government that accepts bribes to pass laws that suppress > > competition -- exactly the situation today. > > Oh man We are really off topic now, aren't we? I rather agree. But there it was -- foolishness demanding an answer. Couldn't help myself :)) Sorry 'bout that. ML Duke To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Aug 27 15:12:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.118.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D5537B406 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:12:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (marconi.concentric.net [206.173.118.71]) by uhura.concentric.net [Concentric SMTP Routing 1.0] id f7RMC6r05058 ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ts002d31.mer-id.concentric.net (ts002d31.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.91]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.9.1a) id SAA06452; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:12:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:10:04 -0600 (MDT) From: ML Duke To: Stuart Duckworth Cc: zwade@micro-mania.net, Chris Browning , Ted Mittelstaedt , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers In-Reply-To: <087f54552201b81PCOW025M@blueyonder.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, Stuart Duckworth wrote: > ML Duke wrote: > > > > > Nonsense. Monopolies can only exist in the presence of a collectivist > > system of government that accepts bribes to pass laws that suppress > > competition -- exactly the situation today. > > > > (And the "economic prof" knows precious little about > > economics -- as he is "educated" under the control of > > the monopolies of which you speak.) > > > > I like a nice conspiracy theory, it makes the old paranoid juices > flow ;-) What conspiracy? It's just normal government/corporate relations. ML Duke To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Aug 27 15:19: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.22.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7BDF37B408 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:18:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mimerki@saintmail.net) Received: from saintmail.net (omastar-45.dynamic.rpi.edu [128.113.138.214]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f7RMIrs137854; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:18:53 -0400 Message-ID: <3B8AC7B6.B7CDC665@saintmail.net> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:20:38 -0400 From: Marcia Barrett Nice X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bsdnewbie2 Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: install problem References: <4.2.2.20010827024555.00e57850@mail.intwebservices.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What do you mean by install everything? What version of kde are you trying to install (and, if you can, what version of FBSD & XFree86)? What have you done to tell your box to run kde? (if you su to root and enter /stand/sysinstall there is an option for configuring your X Desktop that may be what you're looking for) Marci bsdnewbie2 wrote: > I install everything but kde don't work. What done I did wrong? > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Aug 27 16:23: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from moutvdom00.kundenserver.de (moutvdom00.kundenserver.de [195.20.224.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4C7337B406 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:23:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from js@jonsonn.de) Received: from [195.20.224.209] (helo=mrvdom02.schlund.de) by moutvdom00.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15bVie-0002f7-00 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:23:00 +0200 Received: from b0638.pppool.de ([213.7.6.56] helo=jonsonn) by mrvdom02.schlund.de with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15bVie-00011S-00 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:23:00 +0200 From: "Jonas Sonntag" To: Subject: AW: Innovation and Promotion Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:22:13 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3B8A9679.D8928ABC@acuson.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > We don't have a problem selling to the technology elite. But we are > clueless when it comes to selling to the average Joe on the street. The > new Unix/BSD/Linux isn't any more difficult than the old DOS/Win3 combo. > Easier in many ways in fact. But the old DOS/Win3 is what got Microsoft > its monopoly. All the elements are there if we want to succeed in the > market. i'm just a subscriber to this list, but i personally wouldn't want to have the average joe sitting in front of my router. i think if you made a kind of windows out of your fav. unix (an os that most people can easily use) you would get the same stupid little problems that we have since microsoft re-invented the web. saw the little del c:\*.* thing? joe would scream if he saw something like 'Press Ctrl-Alt-Del to restart' everytime he tried to start his new computer. just image that and add the functionality of a linux shell compared to dos. btw on the dos'es i know del c:\*.* would have to be confirmed, del c:\autoexec.bat would succeed. things are kept simple and safe in the ms world, because joe's computer wouldn't run any more after a short time. you may also try to delete c:\winnt\system32\calc.exe and you will see how fast the os keeps the integrity of necessary system files, at least on my win2k, which i think is a great os for my private usage. add that and all the other things that make an os simple to use for average people in average houses and average offices and you will get windows. remove explorer, right-click menus and multiuser functionality and you will get mac os which is easily to use for everybody. the more you try to make an os usable for a lot of people, the harder it will be for experieced users to find their own solutions and get deeper into the system. see the difference between 9x and nt? average systems for average people. this became a little long, just wanted to add that promotion has to be paid and i think is not possible for an os that claims to be free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Aug 27 18: 5:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46BD237B401 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:05:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA6386; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:05:22 -0700 Message-ID: <3B8AEE4F.5055499C@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:05:19 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonas Sonntag Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AW: Innovation and Promotion References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonas Sonntag wrote: > i'm just a subscriber to this list, but i personally wouldn't want to have > the average joe sitting in front of my router. > i think if you made a kind of windows out of your fav. unix (an os that most > people can easily use) you would get the same stupid little problems that we > have since microsoft re-invented the web. I must respectfully disagree. FreeBSD is much more than just an OS for routers. It is a general purpose operating system. Until very recently (when I got a new unsupported motherboard), FreeBSD *was* my desktop OS. For the next few months (until bug #28418 gets fixed) I'm using Slackware as my desktop OS. I definitely plan to switch back. By desktop OS, I mean an OS that supports my browsing the web, reading email, playing games, word processing, ripping audio CDs, etc. FreeBSD (and Unix as a whole) can succeed in all areas of computing, not just routers. Maybe the FreeBSD core team doesn't care about the desktop. But some other Unix or variant will. Mac OSX is on the desktop. It's easy to use. For the most its OS is FreeBSD derived. And it is not "a kind of windows". Joe User is not going to be sitting in front of your router. You are. If you don't want any desktop type stuff on your router, then that's solely up to you. No one will force it on you. This isn't Microsoft. But it's ridiculous to deny Joe User the access to a stable, robust and secure system simply because he isn't running a router. 90% of the stuff in ports have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with configuring, maintaining or operating a router, but it's still there. The best thing I like about FreeBSD is that I can do with it whatever I want. Flexibility. I can use it for a router, or a file server, or a web server, or a development environment, or a gaming platform, etc. I can choose to work only on the console, or bring up X with ten different xterms all at once, or start KDE and have a modern desktop. Maybe the average Joe doesn't want choice and options and flexibility. But I don't think so. I think he's smarter than that. I really don't think he's going to say sometime in the future that "I can't use FreeBSD-5.2 because it doesn't limit me to only one way of working." > add that and all the other things that make an os simple to use for average > people in average houses and average offices and you will get windows. > remove explorer, right-click menus and multiuser functionality and you will > get mac os which is easily to use for everybody. > the more you try to make an os usable for a lot of people, the harder it > will be for experieced users to find their own solutions and get deeper into > the system. see the difference between 9x and nt? > average systems for average people. There are two ways to make an OS (or any software) "friendly". One is to make it simple and the other is to make it easy. At first the two seem to be the same thing, but they are not. Simple means not complex. Easy means not hard. To make a system simple you must remove functionality. That is a Bad Thing, and is for the most part what Microsoft has done with Windows. The other way is to make it easy. It's much more difficult, but it can be done. Don't remove the functionality but change the way it is accessed (keeping the old way around for old farts like me). There's no reason you have to eliminate cp, rm, ls and cat just because the user has access to an easier to use file manager. > this became a little long, just wanted to add that promotion has to be paid > and i think is not possible for an os that claims to be free. Yes, the promotion has to be paid for. But it doesn't have to us that pays for it. IBM, HP, VA Linux, SGI and a whole bunch of other companies are paying for the half-assed promotion of Linux. There's no reason why Windriver, Apple, and other parties interested in the well being of FreeBSD can't pay for ours. It will still take a while before FreeBSD/Linux/Unix is ready for average Joe's desktop. But they are all ready right now, today, to replace half the NT and W2K machines out there. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Aug 27 19: 2: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from micro-mania.net (micro1.micro-mania.net [204.214.90.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EABF937B408 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:01:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zwade@micro-mania.net) Received: from nas2-138.micro-mania.net [204.214.90.138] by micro-mania.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id AC5DB60148; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:05:17 -0600 Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:02:54 -0600 (MDT) From: ZWH To: ML Duke Cc: Heiko Recktenwald , Chris Browning , Ted Mittelstaedt , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, 27 Aug 2001, ML Duke wrote: Duke> > > antitrust laws were written. By those who tend to benefit from the content of the passed laws. Any economic prof will tell you that in a Duke> > > purely capitalistic system, that ultimately all global markets will Duke> > > collapse into monopolies. Hmmmmmmm, I think Karl Marx first introduced that concept . . .at least in written form. A system of monopolies is the normal end result Duke> > > state of a pure free market. Here is the catch: The word "free", it does not apply here in USA2. Duke DukeNonsense. Monopolies can only exist in the presence of a collectivist Dukesystem of government that accepts bribes to pass laws that suppress Dukecompetition -- exactly the situation today. Duke Duke(And the "economic prof" knows precious little about Dukeeconomics -- as he is "educated" under the control of Dukethe monopolies of which you speak.) Duke Don't get me started, please. DukeML Duke Z. Wade Hampton Missoula, MT Duke Duke Duke Duke DukeTo Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org Dukewith "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message Duke Duke My CyberSpace Home http://www.micro-mania.net/zwade OS=freeBSD 4.2 MailClient=PINE 4.21. http://www.freebsd.org http://www.washington.edu/pine -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.1i Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.75-6 iQA/AwUBO4r78zGAnWvRMiJcEQKB3wCfZS4NS8YB433LAbmiY3E6zDUH0/4AoPYt u6qo+T5yeBpK8UeScxVyU05h =omM6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Aug 27 19:30:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from web13601.mail.yahoo.com (web13601.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5771737B40A for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:30:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010828023021.3144.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13601.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:30:21 PDT Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:30:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: AW: Innovation and Promotion To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Jonas Sonntag wrote: > the more you try to make an os usable for a lot of people, the harder > it > will be for experieced users to find their own solutions and get > deeper into > the system. see the difference between 9x and nt? > average systems for average people. Be OS has a shell, that let's anyone to mess with it mighty well. In fact, I created my first FreeBSD boot floppies with dd in Be OS. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 1:12:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 460FA37B40B for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:12:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f7S8CMb74322; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:12:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Chris Browning" , Subject: RE: Microsoft bashers Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:12:22 -0700 Message-ID: <003501c12f99$29fc8000$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <0108270947300X.03063@mercedes.local.domain> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Chris Browning [mailto:brownicm@prokyon.com] >Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 6:48 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt; freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers > > >I don't often post here, either. > >Thank you, Ted. > >I thought I was the only one. I couldn't have said it better. Especially the >bit about the generation raised on voodoo economics. > Your welcome. It's no coincidence that the dot-com meltdown happened when it did. Once you relate the ages of the company principles involved and when they got their economic education it all becomes crystal clear. Bill Gates happens to be in that same generation, people forget that a lot too. What they also forget is that while Bill talks the same talk of "government hands off business" that was popular, in reality he is utterly dependent on governmental regulation. Hell the entire commercial software industry is founded on this idea of copyright law, and that took a series of global treaties to get squared away a few years ago. People only see the tip of the iceberg when they see the ruckus over the DMCA and the recording industry. There's been a lot of readjustment of business theory and operation lately. Some were readjusted by going bankrupt, others like Microsoft are being forcibly readjusted by the courts. Some, like Amazon, are desperately repudiating everything they have been saying in the past. The economists are still resisting adjusting their economic theories as a result of all this - but they are getting scared to death because the theories that seemed to work the last 20 years, such as the one that said that interest rates are the key economic adjustment knob of the economy, aren't working. And, as far as this being an inappropriate forum for political discussions - that's a laugh and a half. The entire BSD license itself is political. In fact the entire Free Software movement itself, whether it's GPL or BSD or Artistic or something else, is a political movement. If politics really had no business in the Free Software movement, then nobody would be using BSD or GPL or whatever, they would just put their code into the public domain. But, I guess I've triggered enough political arguments for the day. ;-) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 2:28:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 106F437B408 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 02:28:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f7S9SKb74887; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 02:28:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "David Johnson" , Subject: RE: Innovation and Promotion Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 02:28:19 -0700 Message-ID: <004d01c12fa3$c60251a0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <3B8A9679.D8928ABC@acuson.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of David Johnson >Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 11:51 AM >To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Innovation and Promotion > > >Apropos the recent thread: > >When it comes to new technology, you have two forces at work, the >innovators and the promoters. Microsoft has never innovated anything. >But they have done excellent work at promotion. The Unix family has done >great innovation but has fallen down when it comes to promotion. > >Without Xerox PARC, BSD UNIX, and many others, there would be nothing >for Microsoft to promote. Despite their blunders and frequent lapses of >ethics, they have managed what everyone else (with the exception of >Apple) in the industry has failed to understand: what the customer >really wants. No. What Microsoft and Apple did is that they understood BEFORE anyone else that the type of customer that you describe later on even exists at all. Everyone in the industry understands what the customer wants, that's not hard to see. But, very few people can tell you what that customer is going to look like 10 years from now. Apple and Microsoft were able to rub that crystal ball and for a brief instant it all became clear to them. By the time that everyone else realized what that vision was going to be it was too late. >And so they have become a monopoly without even trying >hard, because no one else is even attempting to compete on the same >playing field. > No. They tried very, very hard indeed and Bill Gates created a giant deception that he used to destroy Steve Jobs and Apple's future. If Bill had been honorable then Apple and Microsoft would have ended up like Coke and Pepsi are today. But Bill Gates was a coward and was afraid that he wouldn't measure up if he had to compete with an Apple Computer that was the same size as him, so he chose to be underhanded and use deception to destroy their future. >The the average customer doesn't want technology. If they did Microsoft >would have been out of business years ago and all computers would ship >with Unix/BSD/Linux by default. What the customer wants instead are the >*benefits* of technology. They don't want TCP/IP, they just to surf the >web and read their email. They don't want X11R6/GTK+/QT/Motif, they want >a desktop that isn't ugly. They don't want OpenGL, DRI, or even DirectX >(for that matter), they only want their games to run smoothly and >quickly. > This is a very simplistic view. Yes, a LOT of customers want this. But your forgetting there is a very large segment, the "silent minority" if you will, of customers that want technology, but because of various factors don't have a choice but to be rammed into the "benefits of technology" mold. There are plenty of specialized programs out there that are only available on Windows, and their users are then forced into using Windows just to get access to the program. Now, I'm not saying that this is all Microsoft's fault, the UNIX people could do more to extend a hand to many ISV's to help port their code. There's plenty of examples out there of ISV's that have ported to UNIX and get little marketing or other attention from the big UNIX players. >When someone knows what the technology is and what it means, then there >is no need to promote the benefits. This is why Unix is a favorite among >techies. But until very recently, and only in a few corners of the Linux >camp, has the Unix community even considered promoting the benefits of >their technology. > What you really mean is "promoting their technology to the simplistic customer that just wants to to surf the web and read their email, want a desktop that isn't ugly, and want their games to run smoothly and quickly." Yes, that's true. There's a very big question of applicability here, though. But, the're's been a LOT done to promote to the customer that is a cut above that group, the customer that has needs that aren't satisfied by the lowest common denominator software which is what Windows is. But, this is where you start running into problems from Microsoft, because simply put they are greedy. Microsoft knows that when they cater to the lowest common denominator, that they simply cannot satisfy most of that smaller group of customers that are above the lowest common denominator. But, they would rather see that smaller group of customers struggle with an unsatisfactory Windows solution than be happy and satisfied with a UNIX solution - EVEN IF it's one that THEY own. Don't forget that Microsoft sold off SCO UNIX years ago (it was XENIX then) when SCO XENIX was ideally suited for the server arena, compared to what Microsoft was pushing at the time. >We have a long way to catch up to Microsoft. Complaining about their >monopoly status won't help at all. It won't make any difference if >Microsoft get's broken up, because there will still be a Windows out >there somewhere and it will be preloaded on all the new computers and it >will run all the new games on the store shelves. If we want to take >market share away from Windows we have to understand that market and >sell to it. And be patient. > >We don't have a problem selling to the technology elite. But we are >clueless when it comes to selling to the average Joe on the street. No, not at all. But, there's a big difference between us and them, there's many of us and only 1 of them. It's easy for Microsoft to sell to anybody because there is only one of them. All they need to concentrate on is selling _their_ view of computing - which is ram every last darn one of you into the same tennis ball can. Their competition to this is nil - because there's nobody else out there that's selling tennis ball cans because Microsoft illegally put all of the other tennis ball can manufacturers out of business years ago. But, it's hard for us to sell to anybody because there's a lot of us. Not only do we have to concentrate on selling UNIX (whether shrink wrapping it for the masses or techies, that's just packaging) but we have to concentrate on stabbing each other too. If Sun had illegally put all other UNIX manaufacturers out of business years ago then everyone in the UNIX community would be all united under a single banner and we all would be able to pull the dirty tricks (like forced preloading) that Microsoft is able to do to shove product out the door. But that didn't happen so not a lot of our energy is spent competing with each other. Recognize that this is one of the strengths of UNIX - it's what produces good product. In fact you simply don't WANT a market with a single provider of the product in the market, but it puts you at a disadvantage when competing with a monopoly. The >new Unix/BSD/Linux isn't any more difficult than the old DOS/Win3 combo. >Easier in many ways in fact. But the old DOS/Win3 is what got Microsoft >its monopoly. All the elements are there if we want to succeed in the >market. > Which one? The lowest common denominator market? Or the one that's a step above it? Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 2:49:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2147237B406 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 02:49:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p50.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.50]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA161424; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:49:06 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00529; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:46:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:46:48 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: Jonas Sonntag Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: AW: Innovation and Promotion/rem del c:\*.* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > saw the little del c:\*.* thing? joe would scream if he saw something like > 'Press Ctrl-Alt-Del to restart' everytime he tried to start his new > computer. just image that and add the functionality of a linux shell > compared to dos. > > btw on the dos'es i know del c:\*.* would have to be confirmed, del > c:\autoexec.bat would succeed. > things are kept simple and safe in the ms world, because joe's computer > wouldn't run any more after a short time. Ahh ;-) Thanks for the click to http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs106/bla.bat. Yes, it might be neccessary to confirm, but I think this is much easier done, tired Joes in the night, surfing all day long, not knowing what they do, that writing such a silly batch file. Everybody knows, that you cant dry a poodle in microwave, but... What makes me upset, is that MS uses extensions in the web at all. Extensions are nice on the desktop, but in the web, there is MIME. The batchfile should display as text. See http://intra.b.lab.net/~uzs106 . You can display video files in audio filelists but not video in video filelists, with MS, can you ? No new MIME types, that can simply be installed with Netscape and the MS WMP. This sounds like artificial restriction. H. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 2:49:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC58337B407 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 02:49:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p50.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.50]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA127402; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:49:08 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00516; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:30:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:30:16 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: ZWH Cc: ML Duke , Chris Browning , Ted Mittelstaedt , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft bashers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Hmmmmmmm, I think Karl Marx first introduced that concept . . .at least in > written form. Ah, the famous german scientist from the last century. Was he wrong ? H. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 3:16:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCFA37B406 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 03:16:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p187.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.187]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA37730; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:16:25 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00556; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:56:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:56:00 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Chris Browning , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Microsoft bashers In-Reply-To: <003501c12f99$29fc8000$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > governmental regulation. Hell the entire commercial software industry is > founded on this idea of copyright law, and that took a series of global > treaties to get squared away a few years ago. People only see the tip of the > iceberg when they see the ruckus over the DMCA and the recording industry. Yeah ! And forcing small countries to adopt the US system is exterior politics. It is not yet effectiv. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 3:16:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC4837B408 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 03:16:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p187.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.187]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA37732; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:16:27 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00549; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:53:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:53:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: David Johnson , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Innovation and Promotion In-Reply-To: <004d01c12fa3$c60251a0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What you really mean is "promoting their technology to the simplistic customer > that just wants to to surf the web and read their email, want > a desktop that isn't ugly, and want their games to run smoothly and > quickly." Yes, that's true. There's a very big question of applicability > here, though. But is this vision really realistic ? Computers *are* complicated. No OS can change that. The other way would be the end of the universal computer, like Organisers or handies. H. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 3:51:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B006E37B403 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 03:51:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f7SApNb75111; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 03:51:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Heiko Recktenwald" Cc: "David Johnson" , Subject: RE: Innovation and Promotion Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 03:51:23 -0700 Message-ID: <005a01c12faf$60d5ef60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Heiko Recktenwald [mailto:uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de] >Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 2:53 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: David Johnson; freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: RE: Innovation and Promotion > > >> What you really mean is "promoting their technology to the >simplistic customer >> that just wants to to surf the web and read their email, want >> a desktop that isn't ugly, and want their games to run smoothly and >> quickly." Yes, that's true. There's a very big question of applicability >> here, though. > >But is this vision really realistic ? Computers *are* complicated. >No OS can change that. > So are automobiles but with enough money it looks like they have been reduced to a steering wheel, gas pedal, and a fancy computer that controls heat, A/c, light, brakes, engine, seatbelt, garage door opener, entertainment center and coffee maker. And one day you won't even have the steering wheel or the gas pedal and even the person with an total IQ no higher than 65 can jump in the car and drive off. Isn't technology grand? :-) (although as the average driver's IQ seems to be heading in that direction, perhaps this is a good thing. ;-) Seriously, the poster has a lot of validity in a lot of what he's posted. He is right on the mark in that the Linux people really are trying to make Linux palatable to the Windows-fodder-raised users. My only concern with it is that you cannot continually simplify the definition of the market forever and have it still retain meaning. His undoing is in trying to overgeneralize. People do want solutions, yes, but everyone's definition of a solution does not fit into the same shoebox. >The other way would be the end of the universal computer, like Organisers >or handies. > We are there already - but the market still sees value in the universal computer so it hasn't gone away, instead the specific computers have just ended up accentuating the universal one. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 4: 5:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94CF637B406 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 04:05:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p216.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.216]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA39970; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:05:30 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00785; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:02:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:02:36 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: Jonas Sonntag Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: AW: Innovation and Promotion/rem del c:\*.*/typo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yes, it might be neccessary to confirm, but I think this is much easier > done, tired Joes in the night, surfing all day long, not knowing what they > do, that writing such a silly batch file. Everybody knows, that you cant do, than writing.. > dry a poodle in microwave, but... Clicking on "Yes", "Yes", "Yes" is the most successfull strategy with any OS. H. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 5:50:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from moscow.bcc.msk.ru (moscow.bcc.msk.ru [212.57.97.126]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C7A837B406 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 05:50:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from isvetushkin@bcc.ru) Received: by MOSCOW with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:46:10 +0400 Message-ID: From: Svetushkin Ivan To: "'freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG'" Subject: How can I setup http_proxy? Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:46:03 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How can I setup http_proxy in bash environment? Regards, Ivan V. Svetushkin BCC Moscow phone: +7 (095) 748-0910 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 7:22:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mail.e3tech.net (e3tech.net [209.210.193.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E21037B406 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 07:22:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfulton@e3tech.net) Received: from malini [24.1.30.3] by mail.e3tech.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id A90B840276; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 07:22:03 -0700 Message-ID: <03d201c12fcc$ce04a7d0$0801a8c0@corp.trigeo.com> Reply-To: "Joel M. Fulton" From: "Joel M. Fulton" To: Subject: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 07:22:01 -0700 Organization: E3 Technology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greetings- I am looking to switch (personal) desktops from Win2K/NT/9x to either FreeBSD or the Debian distribution of Linux. I've spent a lot of time researching distributions, usability, hardware compatibility, etc. and have a component system spec'd with hardware appropriate for either. I have also lurked on this (and other) FreeBSD lists and Debian lists - trying to get sense of the environment from its people, so to speak, before making my decision. I am asking for and would like comments about the reason you made your decision to use FreeBSD. How has your experience been so far? Now that you're a FreeBSD user, would you have rather chosen another OS? Did you begin using FreeBSD for politico-ethica-socio-spiritual reasons if not, why did you begin using FreeBSD? What three things do you wish you would've known before adopting FreeBSD? It is my intent to run both before deciding which to keep. My functionality requirements to make this a successful shift: stability, ease of updates (both to os and to ports/packages), some specific applications (palm sync, cdrw/cd-ripping (for backup purposes only), samba/smb connectivity) Thank you, in advance, for any comments. Just to reiterate, I'm not looking for reasons to jump off the Microsoft ship - those are legion, and in my opinion best described by one of their knowledge base articles: http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q172/6/53.ASP?LN=EN-US&SD=g n&FR=0&qry=Q172653&rnk=1&src=DHCS_MSPSS_gn_SRCH&SPR=CHS . But that's besides the point... What I am asking for reasons *to* move to FreeBSD and perhaps a contrast between it and the Debian distribution. Best regards, joel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 7:48: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B85B037B407 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 07:47:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p225.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.225]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA64584; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:47:57 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01272; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:39:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:39:12 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: "Joel M. Fulton" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch In-Reply-To: <03d201c12fcc$ce04a7d0$0801a8c0@corp.trigeo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > not, why did you begin using FreeBSD? PicoBSD was the best of all 1 floppy unixes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 8:58:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from ancmail1.state.ak.us (aaa.state.ak.us [146.63.92.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAED237B406 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:58:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian_raynes@dnr.state.ak.us) Received: from dnr.state.ak.us ([146.63.110.115]) by ancmail1.state.ak.us (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GISCCW00.TWX; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 07:58:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3B8BC040.8D50C36E@dnr.state.ak.us> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:01:04 -0800 From: Brian Raynes X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Joel M. Fulton" , freebsd newbies Subject: Re: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch References: <03d201c12fcc$ce04a7d0$0801a8c0@corp.trigeo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well Joel, I decided on Freebsd based on the best hardware support of the bsd's. Things like parallel zip drive support are useful to me. Openbsd was one of the nicest, cleanest installs, once you figure out how to use the OS, but freebsd has these little extras that are useful to me. I've installed Debian, but haven't used it extensively. I liked it for a linux, and apt has a good reputation as a package system. BSD ports system is very nice though. My favorite Linux is Slackware. But I've become biased toward BSD-style init systems. For a home computer, especially a workstation, leaving out all the complexity of the Sys-V runlevels is nice. I'm not as rabidly against Sys-V init as some in the BSD camps, but I generally prefer the BSD one. Other than that, I like the Debian distribution's conservative approach. That's not as good if you like living on the "cutting edge", though. That reminds me of one other thing I appreciate about FreeBSD. The different stable branches that are maintained. You mentioned stability as important - well, I think that FreeBSD has one of the best systems for easily maintaining a stable, but up-to-date platform in the free-OS world right now. my two cents, Brian Raynes To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 8:59:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB15637B401 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:59:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@1nova.com) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BB3B918EA; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B279118E9; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:59:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: "Joel M. Fulton" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch In-Reply-To: <03d201c12fcc$ce04a7d0$0801a8c0@corp.trigeo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Did you begin using FreeBSD for politico-ethica-socio-spiritual reasons if > not, why did you begin using FreeBSD? I worked for one of the Core Team members. He introduced me to FreeBSD 2.2.5. Before that I had tried Linux off and on since Kernal version 0.97 or so. But I was never very impressed with it. I stayed with Windows 3.11/Dos for as long as possible. Investigated OS/Warp, but could never get it to work efficently even though my computer exceeded the minimum by a fair amount. (It was just to darn slow even then.) Even now though I still play to many games. I do too much tech support to make FreeBSD my main desktop machine. I'm forced to use Windows 2000 reluctantly, though I am working on making the one game I play a lot work under FreeBSD with VMWare or Wine. > What I am asking for reasons *to* move to FreeBSD and perhaps a contrast > between it and the Debian distribution. My only contrast between the two is that Linux (in general,) feels more slapstick to me. I run RedHat on a Sparc Server 20, with a 2nd machine that has NetBSD. The over all "feel" of *BSD is much more secure and friendly to me. (Not to mention faster on those paticular machines.) Granted Linux throws a lot at you right off the bat. I prefer to install what I need, not deinstall what I don't need. Rick ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://hw.shatteredcrystal.com ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 9: 4: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from moutvdom01.kundenserver.de (moutvdom01.kundenserver.de [195.20.224.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68DDA37B403 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:04:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from js@jonsonn.de) Received: from [195.20.224.204] (helo=mrvdom00.schlund.de) by moutvdom01.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15blLN-00081n-00 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:04:01 +0200 Received: from a7636.pppool.de ([213.6.118.54] helo=jonsonn) by mrvdom00.schlund.de with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15blLM-0001oy-00 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:04:00 +0200 From: "Jonas Sonntag" To: Subject: AW: AW: Innovation and Promotion - contains off-topic statements Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:03:13 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3B8AEE4F.5055499C@acuson.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org david johnson wrote > I must respectfully disagree. FreeBSD is much more than just an OS for > routers. It is a general purpose operating system. you're absolutley right. i can tell that my p3-450, 128mb running on fbsd outperformed a tb800, 512mb running win2k adv. server on a lan. i'm using it for various things, but main purpose is routing. > Mac OSX is on the desktop. It's easy to use. For the most its OS is > FreeBSD derived. And it is not "a kind of windows". fbsd derived, but fbsd isn't visible any more. would be to much for a mac user. > the way it is accessed (keeping the old way around for old farts like > me). There's no reason you have to eliminate cp, rm, ls and cat just > because the user has access to an easier to use file manager. apple did. know why? see what keiko recktenwald wrote: > Yes, it might be neccessary to confirm, but I think this is much easier > done, tired Joes in the night, surfing all day long, not knowing what they > do, that writing such a silly batch file. and *THAT IS* the point! do you think joe, who uses a gui similar to mac os and who tries and downloads a script that promises to speed up his internet connection would check if there isn't something like 'rm -R *' included? would he as a gui user have noticed that there is a file structure behind it? he would have a really bad day, just because some 10 year old felt funny about the possibilities included for old farts. i have used ms os'es for more then ten years now, and i know i shouldn't look at a picture that ends with jpg.vbs. ever wondered why email-worms and silly batch scripts only appear in the ms world? because its os'es for beginners *and* advanced users. and those advanced users who have had a bad day can have their fun with beginners that do not know about file extensions. would you like them to use shell scripts or perl instead of visual basic? i fear having those people in the unix world. i'm happy to have them in the ms world when it comes to working, because here are only advanced users who have better to do. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 9: 6:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from death.arcdiv.com (death.arcdiv.com [64.94.4.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 834F237B401 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:06:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin@ticktockman.com) Received: from ticktockman.com (c207-202-216-52.sea1.cablespeed.com [207.202.216.52]) by death.arcdiv.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f7SG65o112143; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B8BC18F.44BFFB97@ticktockman.com> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:06:39 -0700 From: kevin godfrey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Raynes Cc: "Joel M. Fulton" , freebsd newbies Subject: Distribution Question (Was: Would like comments...) References: <03d201c12fcc$ce04a7d0$0801a8c0@corp.trigeo.com> <3B8BC040.8D50C36E@dnr.state.ak.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Why is Java support on the BSDs so behind. I'm just curious as to why I have to load up a Linux package to use some of the newer features within the language. If this were more up to date, I would not have to dual boot my machine! Any info is appreciated! Thanks Kevin > I decided on Freebsd based on the best hardware support of the bsd's. > Things like parallel zip drive support are useful to me. Openbsd was > one of the nicest, cleanest installs, once you figure out how to use the > OS, but freebsd has these little extras that are useful to me. > > I've installed Debian, but haven't used it extensively. I liked it for > a linux, and apt has a good reputation as a package system. BSD ports > system is very nice though. My favorite Linux is Slackware. But I've > become biased toward BSD-style init systems. For a home computer, > especially a workstation, leaving out all the complexity of the Sys-V > runlevels is nice. I'm not as rabidly against Sys-V init as some in the > BSD camps, but I generally prefer the BSD one. > > Other than that, I like the Debian distribution's conservative > approach. That's not as good if you like living on the "cutting edge", > though. > > That reminds me of one other thing I appreciate about FreeBSD. The > different stable branches that are maintained. You mentioned stability > as important - well, I think that FreeBSD has one of the best systems > for easily maintaining a stable, but up-to-date platform in the free-OS > world right now. > > my two cents, > > Brian Raynes To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 9:19: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6989537B403 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:19:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@1nova.com) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BA36B18EA; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8AC418E9; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:19:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: kevin godfrey Cc: freebsd newbies Subject: Re: Distribution Question (Was: Would like comments...) In-Reply-To: <3B8BC18F.44BFFB97@ticktockman.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Why is Java support on the BSDs so behind. I'm just curious as to why I > have to load up a Linux package to use some of the newer features within > the language. If this were more up to date, I would not have to dual > boot my machine! Because nobody has determined it to be important enough to make it native. You can use all the Linux programs you need under "emulation," BTW... so why fix something that isn't directly related to FreeBSD being a SERVER OS? Rick ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://hw.shatteredcrystal.com ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 9:24:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mail.e3tech.net (e3tech.net [209.210.193.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D8FF37B406 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:24:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfulton@e3tech.net) Received: from malini [24.1.30.3] by mail.e3tech.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id A5B8416014E; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:24:24 -0700 Message-ID: <046d01c12fdd$e59dda90$0801a8c0@corp.trigeo.com> Reply-To: "Joel M. Fulton" From: "Joel M. Fulton" To: "Brian Raynes" , "freebsd newbies" References: <03d201c12fcc$ce04a7d0$0801a8c0@corp.trigeo.com> <3B8BC040.8D50C36E@dnr.state.ak.us> Subject: Re: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:24:21 -0700 Organization: E3 Technology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Interesting (to me) side note - I grew up in Anchorage... any how... Thank you for the information - I've performed many OpenBSD install/setups (only as firewall/vpn/router, but I really like its simplicity and resultant management ease) and used Redhat for about a year and a half (desktop) - I'm just sick of all the unnecessary RH garbage they throw at me. Their package manager is obtuse and unwieldy -> and that's the main reason I'm looking at Debian with their apt-get/dselect tool. I've not used CVS a great deal - any thoughts on that? - particularly with regard to updating ports/os? I am expecting to have to work and learn - anything of value requires effort - but ceaseless, frustrating toil is why I'm in the middle of the pack of rats deserting the MS ship. What you describe fits my needs well - I don't have huge requirements, bleed plenty at work, and would prefer simplicity, but I want the damn thing to work and work well. thank you for your opinions. joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Raynes" To: "Joel M. Fulton" ; "freebsd newbies" Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 9:01 AM Subject: Re: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch > Well Joel, > > I decided on Freebsd based on the best hardware support of the bsd's. > Things like parallel zip drive support are useful to me. Openbsd was > one of the nicest, cleanest installs, once you figure out how to use the > OS, but freebsd has these little extras that are useful to me. > > I've installed Debian, but haven't used it extensively. I liked it for > a linux, and apt has a good reputation as a package system. BSD ports > system is very nice though. My favorite Linux is Slackware. But I've > become biased toward BSD-style init systems. For a home computer, > especially a workstation, leaving out all the complexity of the Sys-V > runlevels is nice. I'm not as rabidly against Sys-V init as some in the > BSD camps, but I generally prefer the BSD one. > > Other than that, I like the Debian distribution's conservative > approach. That's not as good if you like living on the "cutting edge", > though. > > That reminds me of one other thing I appreciate about FreeBSD. The > different stable branches that are maintained. You mentioned stability > as important - well, I think that FreeBSD has one of the best systems > for easily maintaining a stable, but up-to-date platform in the free-OS > world right now. > > > my two cents, > > Brian Raynes > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 9:29:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from death.arcdiv.com (death.arcdiv.com [64.94.4.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E972837B403 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:29:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin@ticktockman.com) Received: from ticktockman.com (c207-202-216-52.sea1.cablespeed.com [207.202.216.52]) by death.arcdiv.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f7SGT2o111827; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:29:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B8BC6EE.91E9A239@ticktockman.com> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:29:34 -0700 From: kevin godfrey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick Hamell Cc: freebsd newbies Subject: Re: Distribution Question (Was: Would like comments...) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Why is Java support on the BSDs so behind. I'm just curious as to why I > > have to load up a Linux package to use some of the newer features within > > the language. If this were more up to date, I would not have to dual > > boot my machine! > > Because nobody has determined it to be important enough to make it > native. You can use all the Linux programs you need under > "emulation," BTW... so why fix something that isn't directly related to > FreeBSD being a SERVER OS? > > Rick Well, how about because there are many java application servers out there that would probably benefit from running on a BSD platform... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 9:39:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 836B437B405 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:39:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@1nova.com) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4DECD18EA; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4528C18E9; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:40:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: kevin godfrey Cc: freebsd newbies Subject: Re: Distribution Question (Was: Would like comments...) In-Reply-To: <3B8BC6EE.91E9A239@ticktockman.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Why is Java support on the BSDs so behind. I'm just curious as to why I > > > have to load up a Linux package to use some of the newer features within > > > the language. If this were more up to date, I would not have to dual > > > boot my machine! > > > > Because nobody has determined it to be important enough to make it > > native. You can use all the Linux programs you need under > > "emulation," BTW... so why fix something that isn't directly related to > > FreeBSD being a SERVER OS? > > Well, how about because there are many java application servers out > there that would probably benefit from running on a BSD platform... The same reason above, coupled with the fact that the Core Team and commiters are limited to what they can do. FreeBSD does not have the large team of people throwing code at it that Linux does. The FreeBSD developers work on what interests them, none are currently interested in doing so. Rick ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://hw.shatteredcrystal.com ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 9:53:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from death.arcdiv.com (death.arcdiv.com [64.94.4.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03EA637B403 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:53:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin@ticktockman.com) Received: from ticktockman.com (c207-202-216-52.sea1.cablespeed.com [207.202.216.52]) by death.arcdiv.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f7SGrZo112464; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:53:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B8BCCAF.B86CDA5@ticktockman.com> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:54:07 -0700 From: kevin godfrey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick Hamell Cc: freebsd newbies Subject: Re: Distribution Question (Was: Would like comments...) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Because nobody has determined it to be important enough to make it > > > native. You can use all the Linux programs you need under > > > "emulation," BTW... so why fix something that isn't directly related to > > > FreeBSD being a SERVER OS? > > > > Well, how about because there are many java application servers out > > there that would probably benefit from running on a BSD platform... > > The same reason above, coupled with the fact that the Core Team > and commiters are limited to what they can do. FreeBSD does not have the > large team of people throwing code at it that Linux does. The FreeBSD > developers work on what interests them, none are currently interested in > doing so. Ok, thanks for the snotty answer. It helps all newbies. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 9:57:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from death.arcdiv.com (death.arcdiv.com [64.94.4.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BDF437B407 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:57:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevin@ticktockman.com) Received: from ticktockman.com (c207-202-216-52.sea1.cablespeed.com [207.202.216.52]) by death.arcdiv.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f7SGvWo112425; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:57:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B8BCD9C.648605C3@ticktockman.com> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:58:04 -0700 From: kevin godfrey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick Hamell , freebsd newbies Subject: Re: Distribution Question (Was: Would like comments...) References: <3B8BCCAF.B86CDA5@ticktockman.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The same reason above, coupled with the fact that the Core Team > > and commiters are limited to what they can do. FreeBSD does not have the > > large team of people throwing code at it that Linux does. The FreeBSD > > developers work on what interests them, none are currently interested in > > doing so. > > Ok, thanks for the snotty answer. It helps all newbies. My apologies. Bad morning for me. My last message was a bit uncalled for. I let it fly out before thinking about it. Please chalk it up with a long night/early morning's worth of frustrations and reading something and interpreting it the wrong way. My apologies. Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 10: 5: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69D4937B409 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:05:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@1nova.com) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C789718EA; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEC5918E9; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:05:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: kevin godfrey Cc: freebsd newbies Subject: Re: Distribution Question (Was: Would like comments...) In-Reply-To: <3B8BCCAF.B86CDA5@ticktockman.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The same reason above, coupled with the fact that the Core Team > > and commiters are limited to what they can do. FreeBSD does not have the > > large team of people throwing code at it that Linux does. The FreeBSD > > developers work on what interests them, none are currently interested in > > doing so. > > Ok, thanks for the snotty answer. It helps all newbies. Um... sorry it's coming off snotty. It's not meant to be. The reality is that Core Team members and committers have said again and again that they do not *CARE* if anyone uses FreeBSD. Whenever somebody asks why "xxx" feature is not available, they need to realize why! I know I'm rehashing a very old subject here, but the only way any one works on Free software in general is doing stuff that interests them, or addresses their immediate needs/contract/concerns. I.E, the orginal SCSI code came out of a contract one of the Core Team members had, there had been discussions up to that point to add it, but nobody really "needed," it at the time so it wasn't already there. Rick ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://hw.shatteredcrystal.com ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 10:19:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AAE037B401 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:19:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA563D; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:19:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3B8BD2A7.555B7570@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:19:35 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Joel M. Fulton" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch References: <03d201c12fcc$ce04a7d0$0801a8c0@corp.trigeo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Joel M. Fulton" wrote: > > Greetings- > > I am looking to switch (personal) desktops from Win2K/NT/9x to either > FreeBSD or the Debian distribution of Linux. I've spent a lot of time > researching distributions, usability, hardware compatibility, etc. and have > a component system spec'd with hardware appropriate for either. I have also > lurked on this (and other) FreeBSD lists and Debian lists - trying to get > sense of the environment from its people, so to speak, before making my > decision. > > I am asking for and would like comments about the reason you made your > decision to use FreeBSD. > How has your experience been so far? > Now that you're a FreeBSD user, would you have rather chosen another OS? > Did you begin using FreeBSD for politico-ethica-socio-spiritual reasons if > not, why did you begin using FreeBSD? > What three things do you wish you would've known before adopting FreeBSD? Try them both! Use them both for at least a week. Install some new packages. Do some systems administration. Etc. You may end up liking them both. There's no reason you have to stick with one or the other. As for politico-ethica-socio-spiritual reasons, don't worry about it. They're operating systems, not denominations in a church :-) The High Debian Mucky Mucks pay a lot of lip service to political correctness, but everyone else still uses Debian simply because they like it. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 10:24:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from ren-2.cais.net (ren-2.cais.net [205.252.14.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 303E937B405 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:24:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stavros@cais.com) Received: from keinzeit ([205.252.222.226]) by ren-2.cais.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f7SHOSL74330; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <012e01c12fe6$7c6d5c90$9865fea9@keinzeit> From: "stavros" To: "Joel M. Fulton" , References: <03d201c12fcc$ce04a7d0$0801a8c0@corp.trigeo.com> Subject: Re: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:25:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Look no further than Ted Mittelstaedt. He knows everything..knows everything..knows everything..knows everything. . . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel M. Fulton" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 10:22 AM Subject: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch > Greetings- > > I am looking to switch (personal) desktops from Win2K/NT/9x to either > FreeBSD or the Debian distribution of Linux. I've spent a lot of time > researching distributions, usability, hardware compatibility, etc. and have > a component system spec'd with hardware appropriate for either. I have also > lurked on this (and other) FreeBSD lists and Debian lists - trying to get > sense of the environment from its people, so to speak, before making my > decision. > > I am asking for and would like comments about the reason you made your > decision to use FreeBSD. > How has your experience been so far? > Now that you're a FreeBSD user, would you have rather chosen another OS? > Did you begin using FreeBSD for politico-ethica-socio-spiritual reasons if > not, why did you begin using FreeBSD? > What three things do you wish you would've known before adopting FreeBSD? > > It is my intent to run both before deciding which to keep. My functionality > requirements to make this a successful shift: > stability, ease of updates (both to os and to ports/packages), some specific > applications (palm sync, cdrw/cd-ripping (for backup purposes only), > samba/smb connectivity) > > Thank you, in advance, for any comments. Just to reiterate, I'm not looking > for reasons to jump off the Microsoft ship - those are legion, and in my > opinion best described by one of their knowledge base articles: > http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q172/6/53.ASP?LN=EN-US&SD=g > n&FR=0&qry=Q172653&rnk=1&src=DHCS_MSPSS_gn_SRCH&SPR=CHS . But that's > besides the point... > > What I am asking for reasons *to* move to FreeBSD and perhaps a contrast > between it and the Debian distribution. > > Best regards, > > joel > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 10:57:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from elitists.org (www.elitists.org [64.40.73.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2C6437B40C for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:57:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsdlists@elitists.org) Received: from blah (64-40-88-202.pk.dsl.grics.net [64.40.88.202]) by elitists.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A7DA7213 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:07:36 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <06e501c12feb$58e7f0a0$6501a8c0@elitists.org> From: "F. Even" To: References: Subject: Re: AW: Innovation and Promotion - contains off-topic statements Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:00:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonas Sonntag To: Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 11:03 AM Subject: AW: AW: Innovation and Promotion - contains off-topic statements | david johnson wrote | > I must respectfully disagree. FreeBSD is much more than just an OS for | > routers. It is a general purpose operating system. | | you're absolutley right. i can tell that my p3-450, 128mb running on fbsd | outperformed a tb800, 512mb running win2k adv. server on a lan. i'm using it | for various things, but main purpose is routing. | | > Mac OSX is on the desktop. It's easy to use. For the most its OS is | > FreeBSD derived. And it is not "a kind of windows". | | fbsd derived, but fbsd isn't visible any more. would be to much for a mac | user. | Oh really?! It isn't?! Hmmm...my OSX install on my G4-400 downstairs seems to say the exact opposite. Have you ever even used it before? Doesn't sound like it. While Apple can be faulted for putting a lot of crap out in the past, they have done an awesome job w/ OSX. They have hidden everything away well enough for your average Joe Schmoe so they won't mess stuff up, but if you want access to the backend, you can get it. | > the way it is accessed (keeping the old way around for old farts like | > me). There's no reason you have to eliminate cp, rm, ls and cat just | > because the user has access to an easier to use file manager. | | apple did. know why? | see what keiko recktenwald wrote: | > Yes, it might be neccessary to confirm, but I think this is much easier | > done, tired Joes in the night, surfing all day long, not knowing what they | > do, that writing such a silly batch file. No...Apple did not. You are wrong here. | | and *THAT IS* the point! | do you think joe, who uses a gui similar to mac os and who tries and | downloads a script that promises to speed up his internet connection would | check if there isn't something like 'rm -R *' included? would he as a gui | user have noticed that there is a file structure behind it? he would have a | really bad day, just because some 10 year old felt funny about the | possibilities included for old farts. As far as I know, scripts are not directly executable in OSX by clicking an icon (unless maybe an Applescript of some sort...not sure if they have maintained that in OSX or not). You would have to drop to the command line to execute something like that, from what I have been able to gather (I could be wrong....). | | i have used ms os'es for more then ten years now, and i know i shouldn't | look at a picture that ends with jpg.vbs. | ever wondered why email-worms and silly batch scripts only appear in the ms | world? because its os'es for beginners *and* advanced users. and those | advanced users who have had a bad day can have their fun with beginners that | do not know about file extensions. | would you like them to use shell scripts or perl instead of visual basic? Maybe, maybe not. It is mostly because of the loss of common sense and the advent of common stupidity that allows anyone to just click on anything that they very well know might be "dangerous" when they have not the foggiest clue who sent it to them or why they may be receiving it. | i fear having those people in the unix world. i'm happy to have them in the | ms world when it comes to working, because here are only advanced users who | have better to do. MacOSX can currently do that w/out anyone creating any substantial amount of damage. You can consider those problems part of MS's design issue. I will say...I once upon a time would have said that you end up robbing too much functionality if you made it useable to the Lowest Common Denominator.....but, OSX is going a long way to prove otherwise. OTOH though...everyone MUST realize that there are some people out there that just should not be in front of a computer period. They won't make an attempt to learn anything new, and they just want to gripe and whine about every little thing that can be traced back to their own ignorance of the topic. Nothing anyone does in interface design is going to want to make this group of people actually learn anything new. | | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org | with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 12: 2:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7CFB37B406 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:02:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p199.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.199]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA71664; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:02:11 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00339; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:00:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:00:36 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: Chris Browning Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft/Correction. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > And be forced to stop unfair practices. If Microsoft wants to replace the > internet as they were ignoring MIME. Take this as an example: > > http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs106/bla.bat Well, they are not completely ignoring MIME. The MIME type audio/x-mpegurl did work without the proper m3u extension, see , MPEG video in MPEG audio filelists. Dont try this on Unix.. And I just managed to display also a MPEG video filelist with Microsofts WMP. Works with too. Open Netscape, Edit, Preferences, Navigator, Application, add a new entry, enter video/vnd.mpegurl into the MIME field and m3u, not mxu, into the extension field and let the checkbox unchecked. The mysteries of Windows, sorry for the plug, on FreeBSD it is just a shellscript and mtvp. No extensions or whatever. May work with the IE too. H. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 12:34:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from tungsten.btinternet.com (tungsten.btinternet.com [194.73.73.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE99E37B406 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:34:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Daniel.Camp@btopenworld.com) Received: from [62.7.36.150] (helo=dj1) by rhenium with smtp (Exim 3.22 #6) id 15bo3q-0005j5-00 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:58:06 +0100 Message-ID: <00bb01c12ff3$56c69da0$9624073e@dj1> From: "Daniel Camp" To: Subject: Nubile Newbie needs you! :) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:54:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Disposition-Notification-To: "Daniel Camp" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi everybody, my name is Daniel Camp, I have two main queries as = follows: 1) I am planning to use FreeBSD as my desktop OS, but I am unsure what = is the Browser, newsreader, or Mail software I should use? 2) After installing FreeBSD for the first couple of times, I could not = boot into it, only WinDOS. I have three hard disks (one seagate, 4GB, two IBM, 515MB & = 20GB) but if I hit F1 it tells me there is an invalid partition, then on the = second keypress, I get something with this [ad1] /boot/loader/ (note: I can't remeber exactly what it looked like now, hope this is = enough info) end Daniel Camp To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 12:38:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 538CD37B406 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:38:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b010.otenet.gr [195.167.121.138]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f7SJcQw16523; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:38:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.4) id f7SHlQ612867; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:47:26 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:47:25 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: "Joel M. Fulton" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch Message-ID: <20010828204725.B11715@hades.hell.gr> References: <03d201c12fcc$ce04a7d0$0801a8c0@corp.trigeo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <03d201c12fcc$ce04a7d0$0801a8c0@corp.trigeo.com>; from jfulton@e3tech.net on Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 07:22:01AM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org # This is a rather long posting, so if you hate ramblings that are # kind of longish, be warned .. this is one of them :-) From: Joel M. Fulton Subject: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch Date: Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 07:22:01AM -0700 > Greetings- > > I am looking to switch (personal) desktops from Win2K/NT/9x to > either FreeBSD or the Debian distribution of Linux. I've spent a > lot of time researching distributions, usability, hardware > compatibility, etc. and have a component system spec'd with hardware > appropriate for either. I have also lurked on this (and other) > FreeBSD lists and Debian lists - trying to get sense of the > environment from its people, so to speak, before making my decision. Hello Joel, What you describe as having done so far, is very thoughtful and nice of you. Especially the lurking part, and the effort to find out more about the `people' who use an open source OS. You'll see why I deem this so important, when I describe the reasons why I use one OS, and tend to prefer it instead of the other. > I am asking for and would like comments about the reason you made > your decision to use FreeBSD. I have been using computers since 1993, when I started studying computer engineering. The first computers I ever used were Sun servers that I could connect to through a terminal server we had in the computing facilities of our campus. I grew accustomed to working on Unix, and then when I bought my first PC later that year, using DOS 3.x on it was a pain, compared to the elegance of Sun-OS 4.3 that I had been using until then. After a year or so, I installed Slackware Linux on my 486 DX/33 with 8 MB of RAM, and started playing with it. Using various distributions of Linux until 1999 was what made me more and more comfortable with the way a Unix system is supposed to work. Then, I wanted to try something else. I had heard of the BSD's and I wanted to try and see one of them (or even all of them), just being curious in what the differences were with Linux that I had been using until then. A friend of mine had installed OpenBSD on his home PC, and had been working with it for quite some time. I phoned him and asked if I could visit and try OpenBSD at his home workstation, or if he could create an account for me and let me fool around trying to get the hang of how things worked on OpenBSD. Instead of that, he gave me a copy of his OpenBSD 2.6 CD-ROM and insisted on me installing it on my own. "That way you'll know how the thing is installed, and how you can set up an OpenBSD system from scratch." So, that's what I did. I grabbed the OpenBSD CD-ROM, created a couple of boot floppies, and booted them. During the installation, I managed to completely wipe out my partition table, and there I was with a computer that would not even boot! (Backups of my data that I had kept on CD-ROM, before attempting to install the new OS, proved to be most valuable when I later had my computer running again.) A bit frustrated at the ease with which I had destroyed my partition table with the OpenBSD partition editor, I kept the OpenBSD around, and installed a copy of Slackware again, to get something running so that I would be able to access the web. I looked at other BSD's web pages, and in the next half an hour I had downloaded the boot floppies of FreeBSD and booted into them. I started the installation of FreeBSD just to get the feel of it, and see how things were done in this OS. In the next two hours, I had installed a copy of FreeBSD on my second partition with FTP-install, without messing with Slackware. The first thought was "Hey, this is so easy!" So, there I was, instead of an OpenBSD user, a FreeBSD user - and the choice was made simply because installation was easier on the FreeBSD part of the world. > How has your experience been so far? At first I knew nothing about the system. Not even how to get the thing up and connected through my dial-up provider. Then I discovered things bit by bit. The man-pages. The documentation in /usr/share/doc. The FAQ. The Handbook. The general feel of the OS, showed that people had done excellent work, and the overall impression of a "professional" style was apparent right from the start. Now, after slightly more than 2 years of using exclusively FreeBSD as my desktop OS at home, and as a server at work, when a Unix server was called for, all I can say is that every day I like FreeBSD a little more :) There are problems at times, especially when someone from Windows sends me some file that I need a Microsoft product to read it. But, by now, most of the people I work with have learned to value the portability of ASCII or HTML for data they send to me :) > Now that you're a FreeBSD user, would you have rather chosen another OS? For my own personal use, no. I can understand that there are reasons why one might not be in the position to use BSD, in certain cases. For instance, if one finds a company with a setup that includes a dozen or so of Linux servers, it's not a wise idea to try switching them all to BSD. At least not before he knows exactly what each and every one of them is supposed to do. I'm using BSD as the word in this answer, and not FreeBSD, because I've also played with NetBSD and OpenBSD since I first installed FreeBSD, but I still prefer FreeBSD in the way some parts of the system work. I also like the huge ports collection a lot. And there are a couple of other reasons too. > Did you begin using FreeBSD for politico-ethica-socio-spiritual > reasons if not, why did you begin using FreeBSD? I began using open source systems, for various reasons. There were the economical ones (back at 1994, I could not spend the amount of money it would take to have a Sun server/workstation at home, but I could afford buying the occasional Infomagic cdrom-set). Then, there are the ethical ones. I hate software piracy. If I kept using Windows on my home machines, most of the stuff that I could easily find here in Greece, would be copies of programs, that I would pay little for, but still be a pirate. That, I loathed. Social reasons also are included in the lot. While I was using Sun-OS at the University, the help I received from newsgroups of other Unix users was tremendous. Very precise, and to the point. Also, that help usually came without the extra `benefit' of an attitude - which was more typical of the DOS using world. So, I liked the `community' part of Unix a lot, too. Then, when I had used Linux for so long, I began using FreeBSD because I was curious to see how it worked. In time, I discovered that the same reasons that had made me use Linux in the first place, also applied to FreeBSD - only a little modified. FreeBSD is also free. It's actually more free than Linux. The BSD license is there to make sure this is true. Ethical reasons that make use open source, also apply to FreeBSD. And then, there is the community. After having asked a few things in the Linux camp, and received prompt answers, I discovered that the comparison between the way Linux people helped newbies, and the way FreeBSD people do, is certainly in favor of FreeBSD. That `attitude' reason that had driven me away from DOS in the old days, was now pulling me away from Linux and into the FreeBSD lot. It's also much easier to get support for FreeBSD using the more centralized way it works. Mailing lists for support are hosted at freebsd.org and all you have to do is post to questions@freebsd.org. If you ask in a polite manner, and have done your homework, more often than not the same people who develop the code will answer back! Now, that was amazing for someone who came from the Linux camp, with the millions of packages, the dozens of distributions, and the hundreds of different mailing lists / newsgroups / and what not. > What three things do you wish you would've known before adopting > FreeBSD? 1) That www.freebsd.org and the documentation present there are an invaluable resource. 2) That it's not that hard to install and learn to use. This kept me for quite some time from 'testing' on of the BSD's at home. 3) That it's so easy to keep up to date. If I knew that, I'd have switched much sooner. > It is my intent to run both before deciding which to keep. My > functionality requirements to make this a successful shift: > stability, Yes, this is what FreeBSD is famous about. Being -STABLE as a rock :-) > ease of updates (both to os and to ports/packages), The way FreeBSD can be updated is described in the Handbook. I find the idea of a `base system' with known parts that are always there, and are updated with CVSup as a single entity, very useful. It is one of the reasons why I stick with FreeBSD now. Having to update a few dozen packages, and all their dependencies in Linux tends to be a nightmare when you want to compile everything yourself. With FreeBSD, it's all a matter of a few commands: # cd /usr/src # make buildworld # make buildkernel KERNCONF=MYCONFIG # make installkernel KERNCONF=MYCONFIG # reboot [ into single user-mode ] # mergemaster I haven't found yet a Linux distribution (or a commercial Unix, for that matter) that can beat this! > some specific applications > (palm sync, There's a whole ports/ category for palm. I'm not sure if you'll find something that you like in there, since I do not own a Palm to have tested them, but they're there... and if you find that you want to change something, they're open-source too :-) > cdrw/cd-ripping (for backup purposes only), For CD-recording, I use mkisofs from the ports and burncd from the base system. I know very little of audio-cd ripping, but I have used dd(1) to copy images of what cdrom's I wanted to keep on local storage for copying later with burncd. > samba/smb connectivity) There are a few options here, too :-) I used to work with sharity-light, but now there's even a net/smbfs in the ports. After you install FreeBSD, any such questions tend to be answered very fast from more knowledgeable people that are lurking freebsd-questions. > Thank you, in advance, for any comments. Just to reiterate, I'm not > looking for reasons to jump off the Microsoft ship ... > What I am asking for reasons *to* move to FreeBSD and perhaps a > contrast between it and the Debian distribution. I haven't mentioned Debian so far. I do not know much about recent Debian distributions, since I'm only using FreeBSD for a couple of years now. I vaguely recall 'dselect' and horror creeps up my spine, when I compare it to the ports. I've heard of apt-get but never used it. I'm afraid, I cannot comment on Debian. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 12:58:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F7E37B406 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:58:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@1nova.com) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F0A5618EA; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E090B18E9; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:59:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: Daniel Camp Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Nubile Newbie needs you! :) In-Reply-To: <00bb01c12ff3$56c69da0$9624073e@dj1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > 2) After installing FreeBSD for the first couple of times, I could not boot into it, > only WinDOS. I have three hard disks (one seagate, 4GB, two IBM, 515MB & 20GB) > but if I hit F1 it tells me there is an invalid partition, then on the second > keypress, I get something with this You should really ask techical questions on -questions... not -newbies... :) As for the rest, I use Netscape for browsing and mail. With Pine as my mail reader. Some newbies prefer Mutt for mail. All are available in the ports collection which you'll want to become familiar with. Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 13:30:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from lite.osi.gda.pl (serwer.osi.gda.pl [213.25.180.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9100137B409 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:30:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tatsu@rpg.pl) Received: from ip035.osi ([192.168.1.35] helo=moesha) by lite.osi.gda.pl with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15bpU3-0000bf-00; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:29:15 +0200 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:27:09 +0200 From: Tatsu X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: Tatsu Organization: The Acolyte of Brethren X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <73363202367.20010828222709@rpg.pl> To: "Daniel Camp" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Nubile Newbie needs you! :) In-reply-To: <00bb01c12ff3$56c69da0$9624073e@dj1> References: <00bb01c12ff3$56c69da0$9624073e@dj1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello Daniel, Tuesday, August 28, 2001, 8:54:17 PM, you wrote: DC> Hi everybody, my name is Daniel Camp, I have two main queries as follows: DC> 1) I am planning to use FreeBSD as my desktop OS, but I am unsure what is the DC> Browser, newsreader, or Mail software I should use? mail : pine, mutt (text) netscape, Kmail (KDE) news : tin (text) netscape (KDE) browser : lynx, w3c (text) netscape (KDE) but in most cases I prefer text ones when I use window desktop I prefer Windows on my parents computer :) -- DC2.De~ Gm L+++ W--- T C~ Beg/en A+++!ArAv+ Fr---! Na M O H---! $-- Fp/j R+ Ac++ J++ S U? I-# V+++! Q+++! Tc++[os] Tatsu mailto:tatsu@rpg.pl Microsoft: "Where would you like to go to today" Linux: "Where would you like to go tomorrow" FreeBSD: "Hey,when are you guys going to catch up" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 13:55:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mail-1.catskill.net (ns.catskill.net [205.232.250.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D17437B405 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:55:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wyrdwulf@catskill.net) Received: from aikane (11.m68.one.catskill.net [209.177.43.11]) by mail-1.catskill.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id f7SKtRp26105; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:55:31 -0400 Message-Id: <200108282055.f7SKtRp26105@mail-1.catskill.net> From: "eric k. wolven" To: djohnson@acuson.com Cc: jfulton@e3tech.net, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: wyrdwulf@catskill.net Subject: Re: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch In-Reply-To: <3B8BD2A7.555B7570@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:57:11 +0106 (EDT) X-Mailer: XCmail 1.3 - with PGP support, PGP engine version 0.5 (FreeBSD) X-Mailerorigin: http://www.fsai.fh-trier.de/~schmitzj/Xclasses/XCmail/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I agree with Dave: I have both installed on my box. They both have different advantages that might appeal to different people. I do tend to use FreeBSD a bit more but that's because it's "newer" to me and I'd like to be comfortable with the os... I like Debian because of its ease of packaging system and updating--though I'm hard pressed with cvsup on FreeBSD to say which is "superior". I'm not a geek professionally beyond my interest in alternate oses but I found both FreeBSD and Debian to be excellent for me... Eric Wolven ---Reply to mail from David Johnson about Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch > "Joel M. Fulton" wrote: >> >> Greetings- >> >> I am looking to switch (personal) desktops from Win2K/NT/9x to either >> FreeBSD or the Debian distribution of Linux. I've spent a lot of time >> researching distributions, usability, hardware compatibility, etc. and have >> a component system spec'd with hardware appropriate for either. I have also >> lurked on this (and other) FreeBSD lists and Debian lists - trying to get >> sense of the environment from its people, so to speak, before making my >> decision. >> >> I am asking for and would like comments about the reason you made your >> decision to use FreeBSD. >> How has your experience been so far? >> Now that you're a FreeBSD user, would you have rather chosen another OS? >> Did you begin using FreeBSD for politico-ethica-socio-spiritual reasons if >> not, why did you begin using FreeBSD? >> What three things do you wish you would've known before adopting FreeBSD? > > Try them both! Use them both for at least a week. Install some new > packages. Do some systems administration. Etc. You may end up liking > them both. There's no reason you have to stick with one or the other. > > As for politico-ethica-socio-spiritual reasons, don't worry about it. > They're operating systems, not denominations in a church :-) The High > Debian Mucky Mucks pay a lot of lip service to political correctness, > but everyone else still uses Debian simply because they like it. > > David > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > ---End reply To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 15:57:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from intrigue.willinet.net (intrigue.willinet.net [198.49.30.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 41D3E37B409 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:57:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lute@willinet.net) Received: (qmail 28121 invoked from network); 28 Aug 2001 17:57:29 -0500 Received: from ps14sux.willinet.net (HELO gomer) (mail@205.163.104.15) by intrigue.willinet.net with SMTP; 28 Aug 2001 17:57:29 -0500 Received: from lute by gomer with local (Exim 3.31 #1 (Debian)) id 15brfA-0002Uq-00 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:48:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:48:51 -0500 From: Lute Mullenix To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch Message-ID: <20010828174851.A9553@willinet.net> Reply-To: lute@willinet.net References: <3B8BD2A7.555B7570@acuson.com> <200108282055.f7SKtRp26105@mail-1.catskill.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200108282055.f7SKtRp26105@mail-1.catskill.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.20i X-Spam-Rating: intrigue.willinet.net 1.6.2 0/0/N Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 04:57:11PM +0106, eric k. wolven wrote: > I agree with Dave: I have both installed on my box. > > They both have different advantages that might appeal to different people. > > I do tend to use FreeBSD a bit more but that's because it's "newer" to me > and I'd like to be comfortable with the os... > > > I like Debian because of its ease of packaging system and updating--though > I'm hard pressed with cvsup on FreeBSD to say which is "superior". > > I'm not a geek professionally beyond my interest in alternate oses but I > found both FreeBSD and Debian to be excellent for me... > > > Eric Wolven > I have to say I find this quite interesting. I have been using Debian GNU Linux for several months now, and like it alot. Even using the "testing" version and it's very stable, though X was kind of a bear to get going on it. I have pretty much stuck with the generic "UNIX" X apps because I just like using native code software, and I think that everything I'm running now I could also run on FreeBSD, which I'm looking for an older Pentium machine to install IT on. What I find interesting is that most of the people that seem to be running both a Linux distro and FreeBSD seem to use Debian. Had FreeBSD installed on an old 486 for a while, but could not figure out how to get the modem to work, then I found someone that could put the machine to better use than I was so I gave it to them. Anyway for the short time I had FreeBSD up and running, I had some fun snooping around, and have to say, FreeBSD and Debian are two different OSs. As soon as I can come up with a proper machine I want to get serious into a FreeBSD install and see if I can get it as usable as Debian is now. The way it's set up right now, I have no need for anything else. Have never had Windows installed on one of my machines, and at this rate see no need to ever have it installed. Well babbled long enough. -- Lute -- Inspiring new Signature file pending -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 20:57:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from web13601.mail.yahoo.com (web13601.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B24237B401 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:57:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010829035737.18981.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13601.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:57:37 PDT Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:57:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch To: Giorgos Keramidas , "Joel M. Fulton" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010828204725.B11715@hades.hell.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > It is one of the reasons why I stick with FreeBSD now. Having to > update a few dozen packages, and all their dependencies in Linux > tends > to be a nightmare when you want to compile everything yourself. With > FreeBSD, it's all a matter of a few commands: > > # cd /usr/src > # make buildworld > # make buildkernel KERNCONF=MYCONFIG > # make installkernel KERNCONF=MYCONFIG > # reboot [ into single user-mode ] > # mergemaster > > I haven't found yet a Linux distribution (or a commercial Unix, for > that matter) that can beat this! # apt-get dist-upgrade > I haven't mentioned Debian so far. I do not know much about recent > Debian distributions, since I'm only using FreeBSD for a couple of > years now. I vaguely recall 'dselect' and horror creeps up my spine, > when I compare it to the ports. I've heard of apt-get but never used > it. I'm afraid, I cannot comment on Debian. to install acroread as example: # apt-get install acroread both FreeBSD and Debian are examples of good design. I find *BSDs more elegant in some ways and Debian in some others. If you need to do Java development, Debian might be preferred.... yet Solaris for Intel is also freely available :-)) it's a bit clunky though. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 23:18:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailout00.sul.t-online.de (mailout00.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83C3037B407 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:18:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usselmann.m@icg-online.de) Received: from fwd05.sul.t-online.de by mailout00.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 15bygU-0007yx-02; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:18:42 +0200 Received: from icg-pc202.icg-online.de (06192901197-0001@[217.88.168.58]) by fmrl05.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 15bygS-1o8vceC; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:18:40 +0200 Received: from icg-pc206.hofheim.icg-online.de (IDENT:manfred@icg-pc206.hofheim.icg-online.de [10.1.2.206]) by icg-pc202.icg-online.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA88277 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:35:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from usselmann.m@icg-online.de) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:24:32 +0200 From: Manfred Usselmann To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Distribution Question (Was: Would like comments...) Message-Id: <20010829082432.52f0b72d.usselmann.m@icg-online.de> In-Reply-To: References: <3B8BC18F.44BFFB97@ticktockman.com> Organization: ICG IT Consulting GmbH X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.5.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17-14smp (RH 7.0) User-Agent: Sylpheed (http://sylpheed.good-day.net/) X-Internet-Site: http://www.icg-online.de/iwg/?bereich=icg X-Address: Bahnstrasse 7, 65835 Liederbach, Germany X-message-flag: Hi! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: 06192901197-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:19:11 -0700 (PDT) "Rick Hamell" wrote: > > > Why is Java support on the BSDs so behind. I'm just curious as to why I > > have to load up a Linux package to use some of the newer features within > > the language. If this were more up to date, I would not have to dual > > boot my machine! > > Because nobody has determined it to be important enough to make it > native. You can use all the Linux programs you need under > "emulation," BTW... so why fix something that isn't directly related to > FreeBSD being a SERVER OS? > I am not sure if FreeBSD should really be regarded as a pure server os. I don't think so. But anyway, Java is even more important on the server side than on a workstation. The industrie standard for application server is J2EE (Java 2 Enterprise Edition). Just to name a few: Bea WebLogic, IBM Websphere, Borland AppServer, ATG Dynamo, Sun/Netscape IPlanet, JBoss, Orion, Allaire JRun etc. If you don't want to use Microsofts ASP / .NET solutions you need Java on the server for the competing technologies around Servlets, JSP's and EJB's... Manfred -- ________________________________________________________________________ Manfred Usselmann usselmann.m@icg-online.de ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Aug 28 23:25:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailout05.sul.t-online.de (mailout05.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E13E37B401 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:25:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usselmann.m@icg-online.de) Received: from fwd00.sul.t-online.de by mailout05.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 15bynH-0005hV-0J; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:25:43 +0200 Received: from icg-pc202.icg-online.de (06192901197-0001@[217.88.168.58]) by fmrl00.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 15bynC-0S1c2qC; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:25:38 +0200 Received: from icg-pc206.hofheim.icg-online.de (IDENT:manfred@icg-pc206.hofheim.icg-online.de [10.1.2.206]) by icg-pc202.icg-online.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA88294 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:42:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from usselmann.m@icg-online.de) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:31:31 +0200 From: Manfred Usselmann To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Distribution Question (Was: Would like comments...) Message-Id: <20010829083131.018a3614.usselmann.m@icg-online.de> In-Reply-To: References: <3B8BC6EE.91E9A239@ticktockman.com> Organization: ICG IT Consulting GmbH X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.5.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17-14smp (RH 7.0) User-Agent: Sylpheed (http://sylpheed.good-day.net/) X-Internet-Site: http://www.icg-online.de/iwg/?bereich=icg X-Address: Bahnstrasse 7, 65835 Liederbach, Germany X-message-flag: Hi! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: 06192901197-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:40:00 -0700 (PDT) "Rick Hamell" wrote: > > > > Well, how about because there are many java application servers out > > there that would probably benefit from running on a BSD platform... > > The same reason above, coupled with the fact that the Core Team > and commiters are limited to what they can do. FreeBSD does not have > the > large team of people throwing code at it that Linux does. The FreeBSD > developers work on what interests them, none are currently interested > in doing so. I would be interested to hear how well the current Linux versions (Sun 1.3.1 or IBM 1.3.0) work on FreeBSD? Are they a valid alternative to a native version? Thanks, Manfred -- ________________________________________________________________________ Manfred Usselmann usselmann.m@icg-online.de ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Aug 29 6:55:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from micro-mania.net (micro1.micro-mania.net [204.214.90.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4D7C37B401 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 06:55:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zwade@micro-mania.net) Received: from nas2-130.micro-mania.net [204.214.90.130] by micro-mania.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id A52515F00BE; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:59:01 -0600 Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:56:27 -0600 (MDT) From: ZWH To: Manfred Usselmann Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Distribution Question (Was: Would like comments...) In-Reply-To: <20010829082432.52f0b72d.usselmann.m@icg-online.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Manfred Usselmann wrote: On Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:19:11 -0700 (PDT) "Rick Hamell" wrote: > > > Why is Java support on the BSDs so behind. I'm just curious as to why I > > have to load up a Linux package to use some of the newer features within > > the language. If this were more up to date, I would not have to dual > > boot my machine! /* Just my opinion mind you, JAVA SUCKS; and anyone who depend upon JAVA to do their background work in I-net is just using a crude tool where assiduous application of creative insight could and would be better */ > > Because nobody has determined it to be important enough to make it > native. You can use all the Linux programs you need under > "emulation," BTW... so why fix something that isn't directly related to > FreeBSD being a SERVER OS? > /* See above. JAVA was someone's wet dream ions ago. It's time for a new tool! */ I am not sure if FreeBSD should really be regarded as a pure server os. I don't think so. /* Silly */ But anyway, Java is even more important on the server side than on a workstation. /* JAVA is slow, sloppy, and a major security risk. End of story. */ The industrie standard for application server is J2EE (Java 2 Enterprise Edition). /* Says who? Where is this "Standard" written? By whose standards? */ Just to name a few: Bea WebLogic, IBM Websphere, Borland AppServer, ATG Dynamo, Sun/Netscape IPlanet, JBoss, Orion, Allaire JRun etc. If you don't want to use Microsofts ASP / .NET solutions you need Java on the server for the competing technologies around Servlets, JSP's and EJB's... /* Need and Want are two different things! Just because JoeBlow down the street uses a chain saw to do wood carvings, does that mean that I need disregard my set of wood carving tools? Sure the chain saw is available at the store, and sure the chain saw is JoeBlow's standard tool of choice, and sure JoeBlow makes $$$ hand over fist with his chain saw. Think, JAVA is doomed for fading obscurity in years to come. Be original. Take another look at the wood carving tools in the back corner of your closet. */ Regards, ZWH Manfred - -- ________________________________________________________________________ Manfred Usselmann usselmann.m@icg-online.de ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message My CyberSpace Home http://www.micro-mania.net/zwade OS=freeBSD 4.2 MailClient=PINE 4.21. http://www.freebsd.org http://www.washington.edu/pine -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.1i Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.75-6 iQA/AwUBO4z0nDGAnWvRMiJcEQLWYACdH7lflDNAYDZNdLhlsFxgj8dK1x8An3CO IbLSpX13ebt/eEqqBlHu6e+f =na0j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Aug 29 8:19:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4672137B406 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:19:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p191.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.191]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA30626; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:19:37 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00701; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:10:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:10:07 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: Lute Mullenix Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch In-Reply-To: <20010828174851.A9553@willinet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Had FreeBSD installed on an old 486 for a while, but could not figure > out how to get the modem to work, then I found someone that could put Most easy ;-) Shure you looked for it in the wrong places. Well, Linuxers looking for linuxish things, we have ppp and there is /etc/ppp and an example for ppp.conf. Just change the phonenumber, maybe speed and port, user and password Best, H. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Aug 29 8:19:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93EE037B403 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:19:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p191.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.191]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA30628; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:19:38 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00691; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:03:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:03:13 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: ZWH Cc: Manfred Usselmann , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Distribution Question (Was: Would like comments...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > /* Just my opinion mind you, JAVA SUCKS; and anyone who depend upon JAVA > to do their background work in I-net is just using a crude tool where > assiduous application of creative insight could and would be better */ And some people dont like the license. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Aug 29 8:19:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de [131.220.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB1BC37B405 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:19:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Received: from moritz.alleswirdgelber (ascend-tk-p191.dialin.uni-bonn.de [131.220.244.191]) by f1node03.rhrz.uni-bonn.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA32586; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:19:35 +0200 Received: from localhost (uzs106@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moritz.alleswirdgelber (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00705; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:13:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from uzs106@ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:13:19 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Recktenwald X-Sender: uzs106@moritz.alleswirdgelber To: Bzdik BSD Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch In-Reply-To: <20010829035737.18981.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > # apt-get install acroread Ha, three words. How is pkg_add acro* ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Aug 29 14:52:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailout06.sul.t-online.de (mailout06.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51BDF37B405 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:52:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usselmann.m@icg-online.de) Received: from fwd06.sul.t-online.de by mailout06.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 15cDGG-0006WM-05; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:52:36 +0200 Received: from icg-pc202.icg-online.de (06192901197-0001@[217.88.168.58]) by fmrl06.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 15cDG4-0r1xmiC; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:52:24 +0200 Received: from icg-pc206.hofheim.icg-online.de (IDENT:manfred@icg-pc206.hofheim.icg-online.de [10.1.2.206]) by icg-pc202.icg-online.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA90697; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:09:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from usselmann.m@icg-online.de) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:58:06 +0200 From: Manfred Usselmann To: "ZWH" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Distribution Question (Was: Would like comments...) Message-Id: <20010829235806.4f99859b.usselmann.m@icg-online.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20010829082432.52f0b72d.usselmann.m@icg-online.de> Organization: ICG IT Consulting GmbH X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.5.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.17-14smp (RH 7.0) User-Agent: Sylpheed (http://sylpheed.good-day.net/) X-Internet-Site: http://www.icg-online.de/iwg/?bereich=icg X-Address: Bahnstrasse 7, 65835 Liederbach, Germany X-message-flag: Hi! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: 06192901197-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:56:27 -0600 (MDT) "ZWH" wrote: > /* Just my opinion mind you, JAVA SUCKS; and anyone who depend upon > JAVA to do their background work in I-net is just using a crude tool > where assiduous application of creative insight could and would be > better */ IMHO Java does not suck at all. Why do you think it does? > > Because nobody has determined it to be important enough to make it > > native. You can use all the Linux programs you need under > > "emulation," BTW... so why fix something that isn't directly related > > to FreeBSD being a SERVER OS? > > > > /* See above. JAVA was someone's wet dream ions ago. Java is a reality today and becoming increasingly important for building web services and enterprise applications. Java technology commands a 96 percent share of the application server market, and at the other end of the computing spectrum, millions of Java technology-enabled phones are in the hands of Japanese, Korean, and North American subscribers. > It's time for a new tool! */ What is your new tool? .NET, Microsofts answer to Java? A Java technology-like platform but with their closed and proprietary business model? > > > I am not sure if FreeBSD should really be regarded as a pure server > os. > I don't think so. > > > /* Silly */ > A convincing argument. Something else? > > > But anyway, Java is even more important on the server side than on a > workstation. > > > > /* JAVA is slow, sloppy, and a major security risk. End of story. */ Security risk? You heard this from Microsoft, right? :-) > The industrie standard for application server is J2EE (Java > 2 Enterprise Edition). > > > > > > /* Says who? Where is this "Standard" written? By whose standards? */ J2EE is a standard for developing multitier enterprise applications designed by a range of enterprise computing vendors. The standard represents a collaboration between leaders from throughout the enterprise software arena including OS and database management system providers, middleware and tool vendors, and vertical market applications and component developers. The specification: http://java.sun.com/j2ee/j2ee-1_3-pfd4-spec.pdf J2EE licensees: ATG, BEA Systems, Borland Corp., BroadVision, Brokat, Cape Clear Software, Compaq, Computer Associates, Fujitsu, Hitachi, HP Bluestone, IBM, In-Q-My, Interworld, IONA Technologies, iPlanet E-Commerce Solutions, Macromedia, MERANT, NEC, Nokia, Oracle Corporation, Persistence Software, Pramati, SAS Institute, Secant, SilverStream, Sonic Software Corporation, Sybase, Talarian, Tmax Soft, TogetherSoft, Trifork Technologies, WebGain > > > > > Just to name a few: Bea WebLogic, IBM Websphere, > Borland AppServer, ATG Dynamo, Sun/Netscape IPlanet, JBoss, Orion, > Allaire JRun etc. > If you don't want to use Microsofts ASP / .NET solutions you need Java > on the server for the competing technologies around Servlets, JSP's > and EJB's... > > > /* Need and Want are two different things! Just because JoeBlow down > the street uses a chain saw to do wood carvings, does that mean that I > need disregard my set of wood carving tools? Sure the chain saw is > available at the store, and sure the chain saw is JoeBlow's standard > tool of choice, and sure JoeBlow makes $$$ hand over fist with his > chain saw. Think, JAVA is doomed for fading obscurity in years to > come. > Be original. Take another look at the wood carving tools in the back > corner of your closet. */ I agree that it is quite obvious that it makes no sense to use a chain saw for wood carving. Not sure what this has to do with Java. Java is evolving as part of the standard infrastructure for e-business applications. I may face increased competition from Microsoft's .Net online operating platform. This will become an interesting battle for supremacy in the Web services arena between Java and .NET. Manfred -- ________________________________________________________________________ Manfred Usselmann usselmann.m@icg-online.de ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Aug 29 17:43:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from web13607.mail.yahoo.com (web13607.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.118]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 162B637B407 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:43:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010830004310.86062.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13607.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:43:10 PDT Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:43:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch To: Heiko Recktenwald , Bzdik BSD Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Heiko Recktenwald wrote: > > # apt-get install acroread > > Ha, three words. How is pkg_add acro* ? > you won! :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Wed Aug 29 22: 4:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from micro-mania.net (micro1.micro-mania.net [204.214.90.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70DB737B408 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:04:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zwade@micro-mania.net) Received: from nas2-142.micro-mania.net [204.214.90.142] by micro-mania.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id AACDE00EA; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:10:37 -0600 Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:05:51 -0600 (MDT) From: ZWH To: Manfred Usselmann Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Distribution Question (Was: Would like comments...) In-Reply-To: <20010829235806.4f99859b.usselmann.m@icg-online.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Manfred Usselmann wrote: > It's time for a new tool! */ What is your new tool? .NET, Microsofts answer to Java? A Java technology-like platform but with their closed and proprietary business model? /* Uhhhhhhh, I am no fan of MicroShaft anything; promise! */ Security risk? You heard this from Microsoft, right? :-) /* See above */ I agree that it is quite obvious that it makes no sense to use a chain saw for wood carving. Not sure what this has to do with Java. /* I rest my case. Universal academics and unrestricted thinking are not taught, encouraged, or even tolerated in the world now. That is why chain saws are popular. :-) */ Z. Wade Hampton Missoula, MT USA2 - -- ________________________________________________________________________ Manfred Usselmann usselmann.m@icg-online.de ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message My CyberSpace Home http://www.micro-mania.net/zwade OS=freeBSD 4.2 MailClient=PINE 4.21. http://www.freebsd.org http://www.washington.edu/pine -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.1i Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.75-6 iQA/AwUBO43JyjGAnWvRMiJcEQKCpwCeM772gqxCl/YN+K3k8IDZHcb33jgAoL8s Aww9+XRv9LLYs1Lw4IzLvAL9 =HItO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Aug 30 8:18:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from chmls06.mediaone.net (chmls06.mediaone.net [24.147.1.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 225BB37B407 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:18:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from s-hare@mediaone.net) Received: from PHOENIXA2 ([65.199.146.207]) by chmls06.mediaone.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f7UFI9m08077 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:18:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001101c13166$f7d01900$991010ac@greenpoints.com> From: "Steve" To: Subject: I guess I need quite a bit of help here Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:17:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C13145.6B2229B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C13145.6B2229B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am trying to install a Xircom pcmcia card (dual, modem and ethernet), = I am a little lost on how to install this card. I read the readme from Scott Mitchel (comes with the download = offered)about how to add the card, but he left out some things that a = newbie wouldn't be able to grasp (at least I think he did.) here is the page address if you want to look it over. maybe if someone = could explain these directions a little better to me. http://www.freebsd-uk.eu.org/~scott/xe_drv/ like if those question marks should be there. Why my tuple only shows = tuple #1 when his shows like 18... things like that. =20 I did email him but so far no response. he is probably really busy. = anyway, if you could either direct me to someone who could help or = answer my questions, that would be great. =20 I am a newbie at this stuff, but I guess we all had to start sometime = right? thanks, Steve Hare ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C13145.6B2229B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am trying to install a Xircom pcmcia = card (dual,=20 modem and ethernet), I am a little lost on how to install this=20 card.
 
I read the readme from Scott Mitchel = (comes with=20 the download offered)about how to add the card, but he left out some = things that=20 a newbie wouldn't be
able to grasp (at least I think he=20 did.)
 
here is the page address if you want to = look it=20 over.  maybe if someone could explain these directions a little = better to=20 me.
http://www.freebsd-u= k.eu.org/~scott/xe_drv/
 
like if those question marks should be = there. =20 Why my tuple only shows tuple #1 when his shows like 18...
things like that. 
 
I did email him but so far no = response.  he is=20 probably really busy.  anyway, if you could either direct me to = someone who=20 could help or answer my questions, that would be great.  =
I am a newbie at this stuff, but I = guess we all had=20 to start sometime right?
 
thanks,
    Steve=20 Hare
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C13145.6B2229B0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Aug 30 10:15:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from ancmail1.state.ak.us (oilspill.state.ak.us [146.63.92.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 249D237B405 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:15:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian_raynes@dnr.state.ak.us) Received: from dnr.state.ak.us ([146.63.110.115]) by ancmail1.state.ak.us (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GIW57K00.2GQ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:14:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3B8E750A.D39A8A48@dnr.state.ak.us> Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:16:58 -0800 From: Brian Raynes X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Joel M. Fulton" Cc: freebsd newbies Subject: Re: Would like comments and opinions regarding desktop OS switch References: <03d201c12fcc$ce04a7d0$0801a8c0@corp.trigeo.com> <3B8BC040.8D50C36E@dnr.state.ak.us> <046d01c12fdd$e59dda90$0801a8c0@corp.trigeo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Joel M. Fulton" wrote: > > Interesting (to me) side note - I grew up in Anchorage... So did I, I was only gone a few years for college. > I've performed many OpenBSD install/setups (only > as firewall/vpn/router, but I really like its simplicity and resultant > management ease) I agree - if there was a few more "niceties", I'd probably use it exclusively. I'm sure there are some who have no need for the things that OpenBSD doesn't provide. >that's the main reason I'm looking at > Debian with their apt-get/dselect tool. I've only heard good things about that. I went through the install on Debian once. For FreeBSD and Debian, a few tries at the install are what I needed to get the balance between clean, minimal and convenient right. If I didn't like Slackware so much, I'd probably use Debian for that niche. >I've not used CVS a great deal - > any thoughts on that? - particularly with regard to updating ports/os? I > am expecting to have to work and learn - anything of value requires effort - > but ceaseless, frustrating toil is why I'm in the middle of the pack of rats > deserting the MS ship. I've not actually set CVSup up yet. I don't get much time to work on my home machines - a couple of toddlers and a wife make that tough, although I don't really mind having a "real" life. I've read on how to set CVS up a lot, and it looks very simple, as these things go. I've used the ports and packages system, though, and it works great. I've never had any problems with that. Far less than I've had on the relatively few attempts to use RPMs on Redhat (in fairness that was RH 5.1). > What you describe fits my needs well - I don't have huge requirements, bleed > plenty at work, and would prefer simplicity, but I want the damn thing to > work and work well. From what I can tell, FreeBSD will definitely do that, although those are strengths for Debian as well, from what I've heard. For this type of thing, I believe that open source operating systems provide an embarrassment of riches :) Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Aug 30 11:39:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from lite.osi.gda.pl (serwer.osi.gda.pl [213.25.180.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9EC837B407 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:38:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tatsu@rpg.pl) Received: from ip035.osi ([192.168.1.35] helo=moesha) by lite.osi.gda.pl with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15cWh8-0000wy-00 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:37:38 +0200 Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:35:13 +0200 From: Tatsu X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.49) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: Tatsu Organization: The Acolyte of Brethren X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <4994288199.20010830203513@rpg.pl> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Win4FreeBSD ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello freebsd-newbies, I have to work under W2k, mainly 'cause SAP R/3 gui and 'cause its the only computer in the house :( When I was at my friends house I saw him using Win4Lin program and it was warking perfectly under his Debian os. I'm thinkin' about buying more RAM and puting my W2k under FreeBSD but is there any "Win4BSD" program ? Anyone had such a problem and solve it with this method ? Any help needed. I know that it can be a post for -questions but what I need is more discusion answer. Thanks in advance -- DC2.De~ Gm L+++ W--- T C~ Beg/en A+++!ArAv+ Fr---! Na M O H---! $-- Fp/j R+ Ac++ J++ S U? I-# V+++! Q+++! Tc++[os] Forever NewBe Tatsu mailto:tatsu@rpg.pl Microsoft: "Where would you like to go to today" Linux: "Where would you like to go tomorrow" FreeBSD: "Hey,when are you guys going to catch up" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Aug 30 12:17:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from inga.augusta.de (inga.augusta.de [213.179.139.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AED0337B403 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:17:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from case@inga.augusta.de) Received: (from case@localhost) by inga.augusta.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA86975; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:02:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:02:18 +0200 From: Wolfgang Kess To: Tatsu Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Win4FreeBSD ? -> SAPGUI Message-ID: <20010830210218.A84835@inga.augusta.de> References: <4994288199.20010830203513@rpg.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4994288199.20010830203513@rpg.pl>; from tatsu@rpg.pl on Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 08:35:13PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, today I sucessfully installed the Linux SAP R/3 Java GUI on 4.4-RC ;-) Now there are less arguments for booting W2K. But some limitations of SAP Java Gui force a W2K :-( I think about a VMW W2K, too. There is no howto "FreeBSD and Installing Java SAG GUI". Next week I am going to write one. Wolfgang On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 08:35:13PM +0200, Tatsu wrote: > Hello freebsd-newbies, > > I have to work under W2k, mainly 'cause SAP R/3 gui and 'cause its the > only computer in the house :( > When I was at my friends house I saw him using Win4Lin program and > it was warking perfectly under his Debian os. > I'm thinkin' about buying more RAM and puting my W2k under FreeBSD > but is there any "Win4BSD" program ? > Anyone had such a problem and solve it with this method ? > Any help needed. > I know that it can be a post for -questions but what I need is more > discusion answer. > > Thanks in advance To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Aug 30 12:22:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mailout05.sul.t-online.de (mailout05.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F4DF37B407 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:22:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hannes.sowa@t-online.de) Received: from fwd02.sul.t-online.de by mailout05.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 15cXOE-0001qA-01; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:22:10 +0200 Received: from sowa01.nukenet.darktech.org (320067800462-0001@[217.2.183.236]) by fwd02.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 15cXO8-1x9y3EC; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:22:04 +0200 Received: (from mails@localhost) by sowa01.nukenet.darktech.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f7UJLxj01266; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:21:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mails) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4994288199.20010830203513@rpg.pl> Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:21:46 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: hannes.sowa@t-online.de Organization: private From: hannes.sowa@t-online.de To: Tatsu Subject: RE: Win4FreeBSD ? Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG X-Sender: 320067800462-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 30-Aug-01 Tatsu wrote: > Hello freebsd-newbies, > > I have to work under W2k, mainly 'cause SAP R/3 gui and 'cause its the > only computer in the house :( > When I was at my friends house I saw him using Win4Lin program and > it was warking perfectly under his Debian os. > I'm thinkin' about buying more RAM and puting my W2k under FreeBSD > but is there any "Win4BSD" program ? > Anyone had such a problem and solve it with this method ? > Any help needed. > I know that it can be a post for -questions but what I need is more > discusion answer. > > Thanks in advance > Vmware2 from the ports collection works fine with Win2K. I have't seen Win4Lin running with FreeBSD, yet. bye, hannes To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Aug 30 13:54:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from inga.augusta.de (inga.augusta.de [213.179.139.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AED2237B406 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:54:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from case@inga.augusta.de) Received: (from case@localhost) by inga.augusta.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA89747; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:52:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:52:36 +0200 From: Wolfgang Kess To: hannes.sowa@t-online.de Cc: Tatsu , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Win4FreeBSD ? Message-ID: <20010830215236.A87274@inga.augusta.de> References: <4994288199.20010830203513@rpg.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from hannes.sowa@t-online.de on Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 09:21:46PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Aug 30, 2001 at 09:21:46PM +0200, hannes.sowa@t-online.de wrote: > Vmware2 from the ports collection works fine with Win2K. I have't seen Win4Lin > running with FreeBSD, yet. yes, a friend runs a W2K with Vmware2, but he had some problems installing a W2K Slice bigger 2 GB. He could not install a NTFS filesystem, so we first installed W98 and upgrade to W2K and converted to NTFS. A memory upgrade to 512 MB increased performance. Wolfgang To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Thu Aug 30 21:25:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from binary.a0z.org (200-171-41-43.dsl.telesp.net.br [200.171.41.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE79037B403 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:25:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from binary@binary.a0z.org) Received: (from binary@localhost) by binary.a0z.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f7V4KlB22793 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:20:47 -0300 (BRT) (envelope-from binary) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:20:46 -0300 From: BinarySoul To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: sound card Message-ID: <20010831012046.A12189@binary.ath.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've a Dell OptiPlexGx1 with an AC'97 Sound Card and it doesnt work in FreeBSD4.3 (STABLE...p14). Can anyone help me? -- PS: sorry for the bad english To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Aug 31 19:10:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D64037B405 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 19:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sue@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f812A0J94621 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 19:10:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 19:10:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Message-Id: <200109010210.f812A0J94621@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD-Newbies First Aid Kit (This is a regular posting to the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list. It is also available at http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/) FreeBSD-Questions@FreeBSD.ORG is the place to send all questions about installing, configuring, running and using FreeBSD. All help requests are handled by FreeBSD-Questions, including newbies questions. FreeBSD-Newbies is different. We don't ask for help or answer how-to questions. It is a discussion forum for newbies. FreeBSD-Newbies provides a place for new FreeBSD users to meet and covers any of the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral (but not technical) support, and taking an active part in the FreeBSD community. We take our problems and support questions to freebsd-questions, and use freebsd-newbies to meet others who are doing the same things that we do as newbies. One of the things we do together is learn more effective ways to find help when we need it. Here are some suggestions: When something doesn't work the way you expect 1. First look at the errata for your release of FreeBSD at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/releases/ for the latest information and security advisories. 2. Search the Handbook, FAQ, and mail archives at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/search.html 3. If you still have a question or problem, collect the output of `uname -a' and of any relevant program(s) and email your question to FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. Mailing lists When you have a problem that you can't solve by yourself, there's only one support mailing list and that's FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. FreeBSD-questions helps with installation and basic setup as well as more general and advanced questions. You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to you personally as well as to the list. Just make sure you have read and followed the guidelines for posting, because you might find them different to what you're used to. If you do subscribe to freebsd-questions you'll have the advantage of seeing all of the recent questions and their answers. Before you post to FreeBSD-questions, please read the guidelines at http://www.lemis.com/questions.html Many of the people who answer FreeBSD-questions are very knowledgeable, but they get frustrated when they get questions which are difficult to understand. http://www.lemis.com/email.html is worth reading too. If you're not sure that you can follow these guidelines, come back and ask the other newbies for help on how to post an effective question to the support mailing list. Maybe your question has been asked before. If you search the mailing list archives at http://www.freebsd.org/search.html first you might get the answer right away. It's always worth trying. Other mailing lists (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-CHARTERS) cover specialised areas and many are more developer-oriented. You'll need to read their charters carefully before participating, but it's probably a good idea to ask on either -newbies or -questions for advice about where to post a more specialised question. FreeBSD-announce is a very low volume read-only list for occasional announcements, such as notice of new releases, and the Really Quick Newsletter. It's worth subscribing to FreeBSD-announce too. Manuals You'll always be expected to show that you have made some effort to use the available documentation before asking for help. That's not always as easy as it sounds! If you know what documentation you need but can't locate it, send a brief query to FreeBSD-questions. If you don't know what you need, always have trouble finding it, or can't make any sense of it when you do, ask some patient newbies to steer you in the right direction. Anyone interested in writing or reviewing documentation for FreeBSD is encouraged to join the FreeBSD Documentation Project. Details are at http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/docproj.html Other resources A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/projects/newbies.html to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant information quickly. It includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and links to web pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If you have a suggestion for good material to be included, please write to freebsd-newbies and tell us about it. But I have seen people asking questions here! It is quite common for people to send the wrong kind of post to a mailing list. Because we're newbies it'll certainly happen here from time to time. The best thing to do if you see a message that doesn't belong on a list is to ignore it. There's always someone around whose job it is to sort these problems out privately. The posts to the lists go straight through, whatever their content. It is going to be confusing for a little while because we're all newbies so we all make mistakes. That's OK. One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting questions, believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the situation will snowball. There's nothing wrong with helping someone to redirect their question to freebsd-questions, but please do so gently. There's nothing wrong with the occasional mistake either. So all questions, requests for help, etc still go to freebsd-questions as usual. Ours is more of a discussion group, a place where newbies can relax with other newbies and focus more on our successes than on our temporary imperfection. We can talk about things here that are not allowed on freebsd-questions. We're also a bit freer to make the mistakes that we need to make in order to learn. _________________________________________________________________ To Subscribe to FreeBSD-Newbies: Send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "subscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message. Mail sent to freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org appears on the mailing list. _________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Sep 1 6:36: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from femail24.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail24.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F181237B401 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 06:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home.com ([65.10.15.196]) by femail24.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010901133600.ZOFD17854.femail24.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com> for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 06:36:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3B90E37C.617126DB@home.com> Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:32:44 -0500 From: glytchbinary Reply-To: glytchbinary@home.com Organization: glytch-tech X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.9 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.org Subject: How to setup network card? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've gotten FreeBSD 4.2 installed and now how do i setup my network card? im using a SMC-ultra To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Sep 1 9:42:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from pineapple.theshop.net (pineapple.theshop.net [208.128.7.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71BA937B40A for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 09:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsdprophet.org (peach9.theshop.net [206.30.143.74]) by pineapple.theshop.net (8.11.3/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f81GffF21826; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:41:43 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from Scott@bsdprophet.org) Message-ID: <3B911024.A2380AE0@bsdprophet.org> Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 11:43:16 -0500 From: Scott Corey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: glytchbinary@home.com Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How to setup network card? References: <3B90E37C.617126DB@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org glytchbinary wrote: > > I've gotten FreeBSD 4.2 installed and now how do i setup my network > card? > im using a SMC-ultra > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message The easiest way is throught /stand/sysinstall configure -> Networking -> Interfaces (Just remember to press the space bar to slect) Scott To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Sep 1 15:59:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79D1837B403 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 15:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bernie.excite.com ([199.172.148.157]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20010901225950.SPDU29991.kuku.excite.com@bernie.excite.com>; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 15:59:50 -0700 Message-ID: <5755885.999385190796.JavaMail.imail@bernie.excite.com> Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 15:59:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Scot Gale To: glytchbinary@home.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: How to setup network card? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 65.5.19.20 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:32:44 -0500, glytchbinary@home.com wrote: > I've gotten FreeBSD 4.2 installed and now how do i setup my network > card? > im using a SMC-ultra > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message For the future, technical questions should go to freebsd-questions, not freebsd-newbies. Type dmesg | more and make sure the card was recognized correctly. If not, then definitely send a question to freebsd-questions and include in your email the output of dmesg and whether your card is ISA or PCI. Optimistically, I'll assume the card was recognized. Since you're an @Home user, you'll probably need to make sure you send your @Home host name along with your DHCP request for an IP address. Here are a couple links that include the appropriate steps: www.freebsddiary.org/athome.php www.mostgraveconcern.com/freebsd/cable.html Sites like the two above are useful for getting the general idea of how to do something, but the information sometimes gets out of date. You should always refer to the handbook and the man pages for the commands and files mentioned. Hope this helps. _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Sep 1 18: 8:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts13.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A065137B40A for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 18:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuttle ([65.92.8.234]) by tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with SMTP id <20010902010822.ZVKH28468.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@tuttle> for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:08:22 -0400 Message-ID: <001001c1334b$e35d7080$6925fea9@tuttle> From: "Adam Tuttle" To: Subject: DNS Servers Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:09:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1332A.5BF7E420" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1332A.5BF7E420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was wondering where I can find some info on how to setup dns servers = etc... Adam ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1332A.5BF7E420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I was wondering where I can find some = info on how=20 to setup dns servers etc...
 
Adam
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C1332A.5BF7E420-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Sep 1 19:31:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from mgr1.xmission.com (mgr1.xmission.com [198.60.22.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 276C037B401 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 19:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.60.22.22] (helo=mail.xmission.com) by mgr1.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15dN2q-0001WO-00; Sat, 01 Sep 2001 20:31:32 -0600 Received: from [166.70.9.209] (helo=blackmirror.xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 15dN2p-00077O-00; Sat, 01 Sep 2001 20:31:32 -0600 From: Joe Warner To: "Adam Tuttle" , Subject: Re: DNS Servers Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 20:29:03 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="" References: <001001c1334b$e35d7080$6925fea9@tuttle> In-Reply-To: <001001c1334b$e35d7080$6925fea9@tuttle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01090120304400.00757@blackmirror.xmission.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As good a place to start as any: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/dns.html Cheers Joe On Sat, 01 Sep 2001, Adam Tuttle wrote: > > I was wondering where I can find some info on how to setup dns servers = > etc... > > Adam > ---------------------------------------- Content-Type: text/html; name="unnamed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: ---------------------------------------- -- Joe Warner Daemon News Bringing BSD Together Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Daily Daemon News http://daily.daemonnews.org/ Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Sep 1 20:14:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from sushi.toad.net (sushi.toad.net [162.33.130.105]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 683DB37B405 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 20:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bears (jeremy@core18d38.dynamic-dialup.toad.net [162.33.188.38]) by sushi.toad.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id f823Ec222802 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 23:14:38 -0400 Received: by bears (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Sun, 2 Sep 2001 23:11:22 -0500 To: FreeBSD Newbie Subject: Silly Question... From: Jeremy Date: 02 Sep 2001 23:11:22 -0500 Message-ID: <87vgj0q5g5.fsf@yahoo.com> Lines: 4 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I read somewhere that FreeBSD is supposed to be pronounced "Free Beastie." Is this true, or am I possibly just imagining things? Jeremy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Sep 1 22:27:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 047FF37B406 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 22:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 9C3E36ACE6; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 14:57:53 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 14:57:53 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jeremy Cc: FreeBSD Newbie Subject: Re: Silly Question... Message-ID: <20010902145753.I59668@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <87vgj0q5g5.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <87vgj0q5g5.fsf@yahoo.com>; from thinker5555@yahoo.com on Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 11:11:22PM -0500 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 2 September 2001 at 23:11:22 -0500, Jeremy wrote: > I read somewhere that FreeBSD is supposed to be pronounced "Free > Beastie." Is this true, or am I possibly just imagining things? That depends. It's not true that we pronounce it that way, but it's quite possible that somebody told you so :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sat Sep 1 23:34:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from elitists.org (www.elitists.org [64.40.73.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF2C837B401 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 23:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blah (64-40-88-202.pk.dsl.grics.net [64.40.88.202]) by elitists.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 05E14213 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 01:44:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <00fd01c13379$c438ca00$6501a8c0@elitists.org> From: "F. Even" To: References: <001001c1334b$e35d7080$6925fea9@tuttle> <01090120304400.00757@blackmirror.xmission.com> Subject: Re: DNS Servers Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 01:37:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Buy this book: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/dns4/ A must have. ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Warner To: Adam Tuttle ; Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 9:29 PM Subject: Re: DNS Servers As good a place to start as any: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/dns.html Cheers Joe On Sat, 01 Sep 2001, Adam Tuttle wrote: > > I was wondering where I can find some info on how to setup dns servers = > etc... > > Adam > ---------------------------------------- Content-Type: text/html; name="unnamed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: ---------------------------------------- -- Joe Warner Daemon News Bringing BSD Together Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Daily Daemon News http://daily.daemonnews.org/ Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message