From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 24 23:16:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from m4.boston.juno.com (m4.boston.juno.com [64.136.24.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44D4437B69B for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 23:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"TjsdxxKw2ZCjIW+tbbhnSa9C6BZsqDKfadA6C1tAuZW4D/9Dm0OuCONCPGBDnAYkZUvoiISyQsA="> Received: (from hanson_will_be_destroyed@juno.com) by m4.boston.juno.com (jqueuemail) id G55MNHRK; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 02:16:04 EDT To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 02:14:35 -0400 Subject: conversion Message-ID: <20020625.021436.-215689.1.hanson_will_be_destroyed@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 No-Html-Pls!: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-3,10-40 From: Jason T Mangiafico Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anyone know how to convert an interjet to run windows 98?? or at least to get root access on the exisiting freebsd? I have a Whistle Interjet 200 server. I am looking into converting this over to windows 98, but one problem, the Interjet has a special bios. If I install windows 98 on the HD, then it won't boot. Other than the special bios, the interjet is made out of a "single board computer", which is a motherboard packed on a half size ISA card. Do you know anything about Interets? Can they be converted to windows just by changing the bios chip? or is there something else that has to be done? drag ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 25 2:50:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe55.pav2.hotmail.com [64.4.36.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC1537B40C; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 02:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 02:49:31 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [203.144.144.233] From: "mont" To: Subject: =?windows-874?B?cGFydC10aW1lIDUsMDAwLTEwLDAwMCCk2LOh57fT5LTpICEhIQ==?= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 16:45:39 +0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01FE_01C21C67.BCB0AE60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jun 2002 09:49:31.0844 (UTC) FILETIME=[9AF1D040:01C21C2D] Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01FE_01C21C67.BCB0AE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-874" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = =C3=D0=BA=BA=A1=D2=C3=B7=D3=A7=D2=B9=A2=CD=A7=B8=D8=C3=A1=D4=A8=E3=B9=CD=B9= =D2=A4=B5 =B7=D3=E4=B4=E9=A7=E8=D2=C2 = =E1=C5=D0=CA=C3=E9=D2=A7=C3=D2=C2=E4=B4=E9=A7=D2=C1=A8=D2=A1=A1=D2=C3=B7=D3= =A7=D2=B9=BC=E8=D2=B9=C3=D0=BA=BA =BC=C1=C1=D5=C3=D2=C2=E4=B4=E9=C1=D2=A1=A1=C7=E8=D2 30,000 / = =E0=B4=D7=CD=B9 = =A8=D2=A1=A1=D2=C3=B7=D3=A7=D2=B9=E0=BE=D5=C2=A7=C7=D1=B9=C5=D0 2-3 = =AA=D1=E8=C7=E2=C1=A7=E0=B7=E8=D2=B9=D1=E9=B9 =E2=CD=A1=D2=CA=C1=D2=B6=D6=A7=A4=D8=B3=E1=C5=E9=C7 ! = =E0=CB=C5=D7=CD=E1=B5=E8=E0=BE=D5=C2=A7=A4=D8=B3=A8=D0=A4=C7=E9=D2=C1=D1=B9= =CB=C3=D7=CD=E0=BB=C5=E8=D2 =A1=D2=C3=BA=C3=C3=C2=D2=C2=E1=B9=D0=B9=D3=B8=D8=C3=A1=D4=A8 = International E-Business =E0=C3=D5=C2=B9=C3=D9=E9=C7=D4=B8=D5=A1=D2=C3=B7=D3=A7=D2=B9 = =B8=D8=C3=A1=D4=A8=B9=D2=B9=D2=AA=D2=B5=D4 =BA=B9 Internet=20 = =E0=C3=D5=C2=B9=C3=D9=E9=E1=BC=B9=A1=D2=C3=B7=D3=A7=D2=B9=E0=BE=D4=E8=C1=C3= =D2=C2=E4=B4=E9=BE=D4=E0=C8=C9=E3=B9=E1=B5=E8=C5=D0=E0=B4=D7=CD=B9 = =E1=BC=B9=C3=D2=C2=E4=B4=E9=CD=C2=E8=D2=A7=A8=C3=D4=A7=A8=D1=A7=E1=BA=BA=B7= =D3=A7=D2=B9 Part-time 15,000 =B6=D6=A7 60,000 =BA=D2=B7/=E0=B4=D7=CD=B9 =E0=C7=C5=D2=B7=D5=E8=B5=E9=CD=A7=E3=AA=E9 : 7- 14 =AA=C1. = /=CA=D1=BB=B4=D2=CB=EC=20 = =E1=BC=B9=C3=D2=C2=E4=B4=E9=CD=C2=E8=D2=A7=A8=C3=D4=A7=A8=D1=A7=E1=BA=BA=B7= =D3=A7=D2=B9 full-time 30,000 =B6=D6=A7 170,000 =BA=D2=B7/=E0=B4=D7=CD=B9 =E0=C7=C5=D2=B7=D5=E8=B5=E9=CD=A7=E3=AA=E9 : 20- 40 =AA=C1. = /=CA=D1=BB=B4=D2=CB=EC=20 =A2=E8=D2=C7=B4=D5 ! =CA=D3=CB=C3=D1=BA = =BC=D9=E9=B7=D5=E8=CD=C2=D9=E8=E3=B9=E0=A2=B5 =A1=C3=D8=A7=E0=B7=BE=CF = =E1=C5=D0=BB=C3=D4=C1=C5=B1=C5 = =CA=D3=C3=CD=A7=B7=D5=E8=B9=D1=E8=A7=E0=BE=D7=E8=CD=BF=D1=A7=A1=D2=C3=BA=C3= =C3=C2=D2=C2 =BF=C3=D5 !!! = ************************************************************* = =A2=CD=CD=C0=D1=C2=CB=D2=A1=A2=E9=CD=A4=C7=D2=C1=B9=D5=E9=E4=BB=B6=D6=A7=A4= =D8=B3=E2=B4=C2=BA=D1=A7=E0=CD=D4=AD=CB=D2=A1=A4=D8=B3=E4=C1=E8=B5=E9=CD=A7= =A1=D2=C3=C3=D1=BA=A2=E9=CD=A4=C7=D2=C1=B9=D5=E9=CD=D5=A1 =A1=C3=D8=B3=D2 =E1=A8=E9=A7 Mail = =A2=CD=A7=A4=D8=B3=B7=D5=E8=B5=E9=CD=A7=A1=D2=C3=C5=BA=C1=D2=B7=D5=E8 = "Unsubscribe" =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_01FE_01C21C67.BCB0AE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-874" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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------=_NextPart_000_01FE_01C21C67.BCB0AE60-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 27 2:31:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web13302.mail.yahoo.com (web13302.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DC33437B401 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 02:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020627093141.48702.qmail@web13302.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.202.25.243] by web13302.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 02:31:41 PDT Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 02:31:41 -0700 (PDT) From: James Michael DuPont Subject: RE: Stallman stalls again To: des@ofug.org, s337240@student.uq.edu.au, tedm@toybox.placo.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, djohnson@acuson.com, stuyman@confusion.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dear Sirs, >Late '99 I wrote a backend for gcc targeting the java virtual >machine. [SNIP] >I recently asked RMS if he figured it would be worth my while to go >and ask for the assignment again as I figured that after reaping >nothing from the code for 18 months they may be more forthcoming. >This is the response I got. RMS essentially tells me to bury the code >in the backyard because it might be "dangerous". I am currently involved in a similar situation. My introspector project extracts the ASTS out of the compiler into XML, I am getting hostile mails from the gcc/fsf group. It seems that there are not any real rules on this, only FUD and opinions from the side of the people trying to stop all "Dangerous" patches to the gcc. I will be meeting with rms about this soon and need to know his arguments from the past. He has sent me almost identical mails as well, I think that I will have to fight over this. Please tell me on what is going on with this issue, I would like some advice on what my options are. Is is not funny how the GCC people did not try and bury this guys attempt at the same : http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2001-08/msg00696.html “I'm writing a backend for GCC to compile to Java bytecode, and I'm having some problems with function calls." http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2001-08/msg00696.html this mail got him help from the compiler team. Best Regards, Mike ===== James Michael DuPont http://introspector.sourceforge.net/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 27 3:22:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7BEC37B415 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 03:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0016.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.16] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NWPM-0005pI-00; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 03:21:48 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1AE711.50DB6CB0@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 03:21:05 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Michael DuPont Cc: des@ofug.org, s337240@student.uq.edu.au, tedm@toybox.placo.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, djohnson@acuson.com, stuyman@confusion.net Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again References: <20020627093141.48702.qmail@web13302.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG James Michael DuPont wrote: > >Late '99 I wrote a backend for gcc targeting the java virtual > >machine. > [SNIP] > >I recently asked RMS if he figured it would be worth my while to go > >and ask for the assignment again as I figured that after reaping > >nothing from the code for 18 months they may be more forthcoming. > >This is the response I got. RMS essentially tells me to bury the code= > >in the backyard because it might be "dangerous". > = > I am currently involved in a similar situation. > My introspector project extracts the ASTS out of the compiler into XML,= I think you meant ASTs (Abstract Syntax Tree, plural)? > I am getting hostile mails from the gcc/fsf group. Unless you are quoting a post that you made previously (and you aren't) I don't understand the relevence. I also don't understand why you would get email complaining about the code. However, any code you want to add to GCC is going to have to go through the FSF gatekeepers, so you are probably out of luck. I personally would publicize the issue. But I personally don't see how this is a FreeBSD-advocacy issue; probably you wanted FreeBSD-chat? The FreeBSD-advocacy list is about advocating FreeBSD, not about getting FreeBSD people to advocate things on your behalf. 8-). FWIW, I like the idea of being able to parse a program into a data dictionary, and regenerate the code. THis is how most of the COBOL Y2K conversion software was written, and if it were generalized, it should allow source translation of code, which is always a neat thing. > It seems that there are not any real rules on this, > only FUD and opinions from the side of the people trying to stop all > "Dangerous" patches to the gcc. > = > I will be meeting with rms about this soon and need to know his > arguments from the past. He has sent me almost identical mails as well,= > I think that I will have to fight over this. I've done one or two things that have gotten me email from RMS in the past. I think that the answer is that you need to read the GNU Manifesto to understand where he is coming from. He's not really about free software (whether "free" means "free" or it means "liberated", and you are trying to avoid using the word so you use "free" instead), he's about the intellectual commons and strong opposition to intellectual property law. The GPL is just a tool he uses (and, as I've pointed out before, not really a very good one, technically, but we aren't talking technically, we're talking politically). > Please tell me on what is going on with this issue, > I would like some advice on what my options are. Read the Manifesto. If the condemning letters are from RMS himself, he likely understands exactly what you intend to do, and has extrapolated the long term consequences in a binary decision based on whether it promotes or does not promote the GNU Manifesto. Your only argument that could convince him has to do with the long term consequences, as they apply to forwarding or at least not hindering the goals of the FSF. If you are going to go in cold, and try to think on your feet, because you can't figure out what his objections are without him telling you, then you should just ask up front what they are, and try to address them. > Is is not funny how the GCC people did not try and bury this guys > attempt at the same : > http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2001-08/msg00696.html > =93I'm writing a backend for GCC to compile to Java bytecode, and I'm > having some problems with function calls." > = > http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2001-08/msg00696.html > this mail got him help from the compiler team. Duplicate URLs... Intentional? > http://introspector.sourceforge.net/ It looks like what you are doing is intentionally to interoperate with Microsoft's .NET; so RMS's being reticent is understandable, given his platform and view from there. PS: If you want to get FreeBSD folks on your bandwagon, fine, bur like I said above, this probably belongs in FreeBSD-chat, and if you really want the FreeBSD folks to listen to you, you may want to think about making the front page of your project site accessible to a browser other than Internet Explorer or a "view source" in Netscape... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 27 3:47:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web13305.mail.yahoo.com (web13305.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7398337B406 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 03:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020627104644.22223.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.202.25.243] by web13305.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 03:46:44 PDT Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 03:46:44 -0700 (PDT) From: James Michael DuPont Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again To: Terry Lambert Cc: des@ofug.org, s337240@student.uq.edu.au, tedm@toybox.placo.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, djohnson@acuson.com, stuyman@confusion.net In-Reply-To: <3D1AE711.50DB6CB0@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think you meant ASTs (Abstract Syntax Tree, plural)? Sorry, yes. > > I am getting hostile mails from the gcc/fsf group. > > Unless you are quoting a post that you made previously (and you > aren't) I don't understand the relevence. I also don't understand > why you would get email complaining about the code. The problem is that the GCC team does not want to support and XML interface, their argument is that a GDBM dump of the tree data is protectable via some strange arguments. See http://groups.google.de/groups?selm=20020624100433.79219.qmail%40web13301.mail.yahoo.com or http://groups.google.de/groups?selm=20020301114404.74579.qmail%40web13301.mail.yahoo.com > However, any code you want to add to GCC is going to have to go > through the FSF gatekeepers, so you are probably out of luck. I > personally would publicize the issue. Yes, I have setup a sourceforge project and have a patch to the gcc. > But I personally don't see how this is a FreeBSD-advocacy issue; > probably you wanted FreeBSD-chat? The FreeBSD-advocacy list is > about advocating FreeBSD, not about getting FreeBSD people to > advocate things on your behalf. 8-). I repsponded to this thread: http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=0+0+archive/2001/freebsd-advocacy/20010225.freebsd-advocacy > FWIW, I like the idea of being able to parse a program into a > data dictionary, and regenerate the code. THis is how most of > the COBOL Y2K conversion software was written, and if it were > generalized, it should allow source translation of code, which > is always a neat thing. Yes, and there are many interesting projects that do this. > > It seems that there are not any real rules on this, > > only FUD and opinions from the side of the people trying to stop > all > > "Dangerous" patches to the gcc. > > > > I will be meeting with rms about this soon and need to know his > > arguments from the past. He has sent me almost identical mails as > well, > > I think that I will have to fight over this. > > I've done one or two things that have gotten me email from RMS > in the past. I think that the answer is that you need to read > the GNU Manifesto to understand where he is coming from. That is a good idea. > > Please tell me on what is going on with this issue, > > I would like some advice on what my options are. > > Read the Manifesto. If the condemning letters are from RMS > himself, he likely understands exactly what you intend to do, > and has extrapolated the long term consequences in a binary > decision based on whether it promotes or does not promote the > GNU Manifesto. > Your only argument that could convince him > has to do with the long term consequences, as they apply to > forwarding or at least not hindering the goals of the FSF. My project will help the users of free software and help the gcc. > > Is is not funny how the GCC people did not try and bury this guys > > attempt at the same : > > http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2001-08/msg00696.html > > “I'm writing a backend for GCC to compile to Java bytecode, and I'm > > having some problems with function calls." > > > > http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2001-08/msg00696.html > > this mail got him help from the compiler team. > > Duplicate URLs... Intentional? Sorry, the original was : http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2001-08/msg00407.html Also See the thread from Trent : http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2001-02/msg00895.html > > http://introspector.sourceforge.net/ > > It looks like what you are doing is intentionally to interoperate > with Microsoft's .NET; so RMS's being reticent is understandable, > given his platform and view from there. I am not to interoperate with .NET, that is the DOTGNU project. I would like to create a free set of tools, and have no problem putting them under the GPL, the gcc people have a problem with the extraction of the compiler internal data. > PS: If you want to get FreeBSD folks on your bandwagon, fine, bur > like I said above, this probably belongs in FreeBSD-chat, and if > you really want the FreeBSD folks to listen to you, you may want > to think about making the front page of your project site accessible > to a browser other than Internet Explorer or a "view source" in > Netscape... Ooop... I will try and fix the html, I use opera and mozilla, it works ok... :( I will be redoing that page, it is hopelessly out of date :( Regards, mike ===== James Michael DuPont http://introspector.sourceforge.net/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 27 11:11:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64EDE37B43E for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA56B6; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:11:32 -0700 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:05:45 -0700 Received: from balderdash.acuson.com (dhcp-46-107.acuson.com [157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id NAKS93LN; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:06:11 -0700 From: Johnson David To: James Michael DuPont , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Organization: Acuson Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:11:27 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.1 References: <20020627093141.48702.qmail@web13302.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20020627093141.48702.qmail@web13302.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200206271111.27952.djohnson@acuson.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday 27 June 2002 02:31 am, James Michael DuPont wrote: > I am currently involved in a similar situation. > My introspector project extracts the ASTS out of the compiler into XML, > I am getting hostile mails from the gcc/fsf group. The basic problem here (I think) is that "extracting" anything out of the compiler, other than what it normally outputs, will create a derivative work. It is another form of translation, which is covered by copyright law. You have the permission to do so under the GPL, if the resulting XML extraction is also under the GPL. GNU is a funny organization. Among their various beliefs is that utilizations of loopholes in the GPL are not permitted. They may feel (my guess) that your XML extraction is a "loophole". You cannot write a non-GPL program that directly extracts the ASTS out of the compiler. But your XML extraction can be used by a non-GPL program for the same thing. Thus, they may feel that your project (again, my guess) is an end run, or can be used as an end run, around the GPL, by non-GPL programs. > It seems that there are not any real rules on this, > only FUD and opinions from the side of the people trying to stop all > "Dangerous" patches to the gcc. I don't think your project violates the GPL at all. I am confident that copyright law and the wording of the GPL allows this. But that won't stop the FSF from suing to prove otherwise. That latter point is all important. The FSF doesn't need to be right, they just need to be able to outlast you in a court of law. Your only defense, as I see it, is to convince enough people associated with GNU that your project is not in violation of the GPL. In order to do this, you must argue from the perspective of the GNU Philosophy, and not logic, law, rights or anything else. > I will be meeting with rms about this soon and need to know his > arguments from the past. He has sent me almost identical mails as well, > I think that I will have to fight over this. Having been in discussions with RMS before, I know that once he has made up his mind on an issue, he will never change it no matter what. If he gets it into his head that your project can be used as an end run around the GPL, you will have lost. One of RMS's overriding concerns is the GNU Project itself. He actually opposes the Uniform Driver Interface because it would benefit Windows users more than GNU users. So keep that in mind. cheers, David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 27 12:19:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5935037B401 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a030.otenet.gr [212.205.215.30]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g5RJIjhc006838; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 22:18:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g5RJI0GM044049; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 22:18:05 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.4/8.12.4/Submit) id g5RCTRMY011667; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 15:29:27 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 15:29:27 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: James Michael DuPont Cc: Terry Lambert , des@ofug.org, s337240@student.uq.edu.au, tedm@toybox.placo.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, djohnson@acuson.com, stuyman@confusion.net Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Message-ID: <20020627122927.GF8849@hades.hell.gr> References: <3D1AE711.50DB6CB0@mindspring.com> <20020627104644.22223.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020627104644.22223.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: C1EB 0653 DB8B A557 3829 00F9 D60F 941A 3186 03B6 X-Phone: +30-944-116520 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2002-06-27 03:46 +0000, James Michael DuPont wrote: > > Your only argument that could convince him has to do with the long > > term consequences, as they apply to forwarding or at least not > > hindering the goals of the FSF. > > My project will help the users of free software and help the gcc. I think Terry meant that you should expand this part a bit. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 27 12:35:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web13301.mail.yahoo.com (web13301.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2F7DC37B400 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020627193540.21479.qmail@web13301.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [80.128.230.244] by web13301.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:35:40 PDT Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:35:40 -0700 (PDT) From: James Michael DuPont Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Terry Lambert , des@ofug.org, s337240@student.uq.edu.au, tedm@toybox.placo.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, djohnson@acuson.com, stuyman@confusion.net In-Reply-To: <20020627122927.GF8849@hades.hell.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --- Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2002-06-27 03:46 +0000, James Michael DuPont wrote: > > > Your only argument that could convince him has to do with the > long > > > term consequences, as they apply to forwarding or at least not > > > hindering the goals of the FSF. > > > > My project will help the users of free software and help the gcc. > > I think Terry meant that you should expand this part a bit. Yes, I have followed his advice and updated my project webpage : http://introspector.sf.net and you will find an ton of chaotic and related snippets under the blogger : http://gccintrospector.blogspot.com I have a ton of mails written describing the project, but let me tell in a couple of lines : All types of data is stored about software on files in various formats, all types of programs exist to process this information. The idea behind the introspector is to extract that data out of the running tools via an XML Dumper patch into a common format (XML/RDF/DAML) and then have all types of tools to collate that into a repository of meta data. This would then be presented back to the programmer, be accessable at run time and even the end user might benefit. This introspection means that a program "knows" about itself and its environment, of course it is only interesting for a user to process this information intelligently. My current version contains a meta data framework in perl and a XML dumper for the gcc. The perl collects data from the gcc, and then can do code generation in SQL, PERL, and XML. There is a lot of bits and bobs to the introspector, and now I am finally putting it all together. Also the first targets for the introspector were Perl, the gcc itself and the DOTGNU PNET C# compiler Cscc. Mike ===== James Michael DuPont http://introspector.sourceforge.net/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 27 12:57:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A16B37B400 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0530.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.20] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NfNK-0001Fx-00; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:56:19 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1B6DBA.B00F3406@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:55:38 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Michael DuPont Cc: des@ofug.org, s337240@student.uq.edu.au, tedm@toybox.placo.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, djohnson@acuson.com, stuyman@confusion.net Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again References: <20020627104644.22223.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG James Michael DuPont wrote: > The problem is that the GCC team does not want to support and XML > interface, their argument is that a GDBM dump of the tree data is > protectable via some strange arguments. Actually, it was your argument in your second posting that the output of a program would be protectable under the GPL, even if the input were not. For that to be true, we would have to recognize the program as an author, which is legally impossible. Minimally, your code provides an intermediate language, which RMS has already come out against; but it is potentially much, much worse, from his perspective. I think that, according to your first posting, the work you are doing will also do one of two things, neither of which can be tolerated by the FSF: 1) The program can abstract an idea from the code, which therefore removes the license protections by removing from the code that which constitutes authorship, the expression of the idea, therefore leaving only the idea, which cannot be protected (e.g. via the GPL). 2) The program can demonstrate abstract equivalence between software, which would demonstrate that one expression and another are fundamentally equivalent through uniform transformation, and therefore provide reasonable doubt as to even a clean-room reengineering of a piece of software done in order to change its license (e.g. "tar" and "GNU tar" source code equivalence). In the first case, you provide a sieve through which one can strain ideas embodies in expressions, thereby removing the expression, and leaving the idea. Such a sieve would allow the removal of license, such as the GPL, as well. In the second case, you provide the ability to transform one expression into another expression. Such a transformation would demonstrate infringement of one work's expression on another's expression, despite any techniques utilized to "clean-room" the code. A side effect of this might be the claim that the ASTs themselves were the expression, precluding any equivalence engineering whatsoever. From a legal perspective, absent modification of intellectual property law, either outcome is "dangerous". > > But I personally don't see how this is a FreeBSD-advocacy issue; > > probably you wanted FreeBSD-chat? The FreeBSD-advocacy list is > > about advocating FreeBSD, not about getting FreeBSD people to > > advocate things on your behalf. 8-). > > I repsponded to this thread: > http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=0+0+archive/2001/freebsd-advocacy/20010225.freebsd-advocacy This wasn't really an advocacy issue, either. If you want to argue it again, though, it was an issue of being able to use GNU tools to target a proprietary virtual machine for which there may not be a GNU equivalent. I understand the argument there, but, if anything, it's a side issue compared to your code, which strikes at the very heart of the social problem that Richard believes exists, and doesn't resolve it. It cuts very close to the bone, through the flesh of the boundary on which the GPL depends for it use of the intellectual property system to subvert the intellectual proerty system. Your code is subversive of their subversion. 8-). > > Your only argument that could convince him > > has to do with the long term consequences, as they apply to > > forwarding or at least not hindering the goals of the FSF. > > My project will help the users of free software and help the gcc. I disagree, but that's irrelevent. The question you must answer for the FSF's approval will be whether or not it advances or it detracts from the goals of the FSF. Free software, the GPL, gcc, etc., are all just instrumentalities, to be used in achieving the goals of the GNU Manifesto. If those goals could be achieved more effciently or effectively with another approach then these things would not have been created. > Also See the thread from Trent : > http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2001-02/msg00895.html RMS's reply here touches the fundamental distinction between "use" and "utilize" that he attempts to obfuscate elsewhere. Frankly, the posting of a private communication like this is bad "nettiquite", and I rather expect that RMS wished that it had not been published, since it demonstrates a distinction between private and publically held positions with regard to liberty vs. freedom. Personally, I try to be completely consistent in both my public and private email, since I operate under the theory that anything not in ones direct control may be published. I won't compound the issue personally by reposting it here, but I will leave your reference to the original, above. RMS is correct in his analysis of the consequences of such a project being a potential undermining of the goals of the GPL. I think that your only chance is to make it a tradeoff that he considers worthwhile. I think that would be very hard to do. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 27 13:25:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D820837B405 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:25:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com ([157.226.230.209]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA6AE2; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:25:09 -0700 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:19:20 -0700 Received: from balderdash.acuson.com (dhcp-46-107.acuson.com [157.226.46.107]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id NAKS9QGR; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:19:45 -0700 From: Johnson David To: Terry Lambert , James Michael DuPont Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Organization: Acuson Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:25:01 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.1 References: <20020627104644.22223.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com> <3D1B6DBA.B00F3406@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3D1B6DBA.B00F3406@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200206271325.01974.djohnson@acuson.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday 27 June 2002 12:55 pm, Terry Lambert wrote: > Frankly, the posting of a private communication like this is bad > "nettiquite", and I rather expect that RMS wished that it had > not been published, since it demonstrates a distinction between > private and publically held positions with regard to liberty vs. > freedom. This private communication is the heart of the whole matter. It may be against netiquette, but it seems to me to be quite necessary given the situation. The public writings of RMS are quite clear that information should never be suppressed. Yet here is a letter from RMS urging information suppression. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 27 13:42:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2BFF37B400 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0530.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.20] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Ng5Z-00025V-00; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:42:02 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1B7871.950CC90E@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:41:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Michael DuPont , des@ofug.org, s337240@student.uq.edu.au, tedm@toybox.placo.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, djohnson@acuson.com, stuyman@confusion.net Subject: Re: Stallman stalls again References: <20020627104644.22223.qmail@web13305.mail.yahoo.com> <3D1B6DBA.B00F3406@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > The question you must answer > for the FSF's approval will be whether or not it advances or it > detracts from the goals of the FSF. Free software, the GPL, gcc, > etc., are all just instrumentalities, to be used in achieving the > goals of the GNU Manifesto. If those goals could be achieved > more effciently or effectively with another approach then these > things would not have been created. I want to emphasize this as much as possible. If you take the time to internalize this idea, it should give you some profound insight into the limitations of the vision under which RMS operates. If you can model this, you can model his behaviour, and in doing that, you should be able to predict his reactions to potential arguments, without biasing against your final case when you go to present it to him. If your proof lies outside his model, he will reject it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 27 21:48: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D598037B400 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0173A43E09 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:47:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id g5S4la748954; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:47:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "James Michael DuPont" , , , , , Subject: RE: Stallman stalls again Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:47:36 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c21e5e$eca9b820$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20020627093141.48702.qmail@web13302.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: James Michael DuPont [mailto:mdupont777@yahoo.com] >Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 2:32 AM >To: des@ofug.org; s337240@student.uq.edu.au; tedm@toybox.placo.com; >freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; djohnson@acuson.com; stuyman@confusion.net >Subject: RE: Stallman stalls again > > >I am currently involved in a similar situation. >My introspector project extracts the ASTS out of the compiler into XML, >I am getting hostile mails from the gcc/fsf group. > >It seems that there are not any real rules on this, >only FUD and opinions from the side of the people trying to stop all >"Dangerous" patches to the gcc. > Right. As Terry says, your doing exactly what they are doing, only you aren't consistent with their view of the world. Thus, they will oppose you. >I will be meeting with rms about this soon and need to know his >arguments from the past. He has sent me almost identical mails as well, >I think that I will have to fight over this. > Why? What is it that you want from RMS? For starters, RMS doesen't even represent the views of the GNU project, in fact that project itself is as fractionalized as all the Linux people with their distribution of the month mentality. The GNU has no goals that everyone in it agrees over. They argue with each other as much as they argue with everyone else. RMS today is nothing more than a figurehead who's main usefulness to anybody is that he has an opinion on your stuff. If RMS loves something, then half the GNU will hate it and the other half will love it. If RMS hates something then half the GNU will love it and the other half will hate it. I think your operating under the delusion that getting RMS's buyoff on something will miraculously get all the GNU to embrace it. You need to realize that the fact that RMS hates your stuff is valuable - now you can go wade into the fray waving your "I'm a victim of RMS" banner and gain a following. He has done you a tremendous favor - grab it and run! > >Please tell me on what is going on with this issue, >I would like some advice on what my options are. > You have only one real option, and that is this: Write useful software. If your GCC backend does something that someone needs done, then your headed in the right direction. If it does something that a lot of people love, then so much the better. The GNU history is littered with projects that the core group fought against but the users basically told the core to shove it up their ass, then eventually the GNU capitulated and rewrote their manifesto to include the project. Keep this in mind: you cannot convince RMS of anything. He makes a snap decision as to whether he likes what your doing or not, then never changes it. By meeting him all your doing is feeding his ego, you have no more chance of convincing him your stuff is worthwhile than a flower has of convincing the sun to move it's rays into a better position. What you do to RMS is you tell him "This is what I'm doing and it's going to be great and lots of people will like it and it's not going to go away. So you may as well get used to it because nothing you can say will stop me." Your missing the point of Free software if you are seeking permission from anyone. First your seeking permission from RMS now your seeking permission from us. Wake up - you don't need permission from anyone. Just do it and if it's good, enough people will start using it, THEN you can run around doing your politicing to grease it up for easy insertion into the GNU rectum. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 28 12: 7:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFF6037B407 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3.ksc.th.com (mail3.ksc.th.com [203.155.0.234]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D94143E09 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:07:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from easytoberich01@yahoo.com) Received: from ksc.th.com ([203.107.246.47]) by mail3.ksc.th.com (8.12.1/8.12.0) with SMTP id g5SIYR1L007846 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 02:07:42 +0700 Message-Id: <200206281907.g5SIYR1L007846@mail3.ksc.th.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 02:09:45 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org From: easytoberich01@yahoo.com (international e-business) Subject: สำหรับผู้ที่ต้องการโอกาสในการเปลี่ยนแปลงชีวิต Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG !!!!! Part-Time Job!! สำหรับนักเรียน นักศึกษา และผู้ทำงานประจำ คุณต้องการงานแบบนี้บ้างไหม…?? -งาน parttime ทำงานที่บ้านได้ ถ้าคุณใช้ Internet เป็น -ทำงานเพียงวันละ 2-3 ชม. -รายได้ 5,000 – 15,000 บาท ถ้าคุณเป็นคนหนึ่งที่ทำงานประจำหรือยังไม่มีงานทำ นักศึกษาที่กำลังศึกษาอยู่ ผู้ว่างงาน หรือผู้ที่ยังพอมีเวลาว่างจากงานประจำ มีคุณสมบัติเบื้องต้นดังนี้ 1. มีทัศนคติที่ดี 2. พร้อมที่จะเรียนรู้ เนื่องจากเป็นระบบใหม่จึงต้องให้มีการอบรมให้ตามความเหมาะสม 3. ต้องการที่จะทำงานอย่างจริงจัง อยากที่จะเปลี่ยนฐานะทางการเงินของตนเอง และอยากมีรายได้จากการทำงานตรงนี้จริงๆ ทุกอย่างเป็นไปได้ ใน http://www.geocities.com/getchances2000/ อย่า !…………….. เป็นแค่เพียงคนที่นั่งรอโอกาส To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jun 29 10:50: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A061137B40B for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web13302.mail.yahoo.com (web13302.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 09D6B43E97 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:49:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mdupont777@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20020629174940.25432.qmail@web13302.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [149.225.86.101] by web13302.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:49:40 PDT Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:49:40 -0700 (PDT) From: James Michael DuPont Subject: Proposal for an Worldwide Data Introspector API layer for GNU tools. To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----------------------------------- Here is my proposal : ----------------------------------- I propose the following API into free software development tools to be licensed for the orderly, secure, fast, and high tech buzzword compliant data backbone for a new gnu development environment. ABSTRACT The Introspector is a tool chain to extract meta-data about your programs from the compiler and present it to you for making your job as a programmer easier. The software is free software in the spirit of the GNU manifesto and is revolutionary in the freedoms that it intends on granting to its users. There are many many licensing and legal issues addressed by this project, and my guideline for resolving them are to limit the usage of the tool for non-free software if there is a need to. The legal and licensing FAQ will be posted in the next weeks. This Meta-Data includes all data collected about your software by the Compiler, the Make system, the Project and Packaging system, the CVS Logs and the Mailling List. The Introspector's scope was originally just the GCC C compiler, but will be expanded to include the extraction of meta-data from different compilers and interpreters. The programs meta-data will be provided as a Perl/C#/(XML/RDF/DAML)/SQL or plain old C/C++ interface. We will build tools to allow this meta-data to be processed by various GUI tools, Graph Layout Tools like VCG, Diagram Editors like DIA, and Editors like EMACS. Also Languge bindings like compiling (gcc(C, C++, java) | cscc(CSHARP)) scripting (guile|Python|Perl { via inline::* }|Ruby) reasoning (guile|scheme|lisp|prolog) repository (GDBM|(POSTGRES|MYSQL)XIndice) communication (soap|xmlrpc| + a new development of a REST api) This meta-data will be stored in a repository and available to tools that need it via many different interfaces. I look forward to your comments. Please come visit my updated webpage at : http://introspector.sf.net You will find an copy of related snippets and news at : the blogger : http://gccintrospector.blogspot.com Best regards, Mike ===== James Michael DuPont http://introspector.sourceforge.net/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jun 29 15:39: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E920337B400 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A135A43E2F for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:39:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0102.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.102] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17OQrx-0000SN-00 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:39:05 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1E36E1.53A2DC87@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:38:25 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: [Fwd: We're famous] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG THis rather begs the question of "any press is good press". We probably need spokespersons to come out of the woodwork, and declaim that "of the *insanely huge* number of FreeBSD installations, only a few have been effected". This could do more to get FreeBSD's name into the mainstream than a decade of patient hacking. 8-). "Well, we've been expecting something like this", one source is quoted as saying, "given how easy it is to develop software on FreeBSD, compared to other platforms". -- Terry Kris Kirby wrote: > > On Sat, 29 Jun 2002, Doug Barton wrote: > > Subject: We're famous > > For all the wrong reasons. Why couldn't they just follow the status quo > and do it on RedHat first? ;-) > > -- > Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL. > ------------------------------------------------------- > "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message