From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Dec 1 5:13: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 412FF37B401 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 05:13:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED88743ECD for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 05:13:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from walterk1@earthlink.net) Received: from user-0cal9lv.cable.mindspring.com ([24.170.166.191] helo=earthlink.net) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ITu2-0001mN-00 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 05:12:54 -0800 Message-ID: <3DEA0AD5.1090704@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 08:12:53 -0500 From: Walter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: How NSA access was built into Windows Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Though a fairly old story, I just received this in an e-mail and I thought it appropriate for Advocacy. (A prior attempt to send the whole page failed, I'll presume because it got send as an attachment.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Dec 1 7:22:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADBB37B401 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 07:22:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from c3po.skynet.be (c3po.skynet.be [195.238.3.237]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA7FC43EBE for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 07:22:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mariog@tomservo.cc) Received: from TSO (8.133-136-217.adsl.skynet.be [217.136.133.8]) by c3po.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.20) with ESMTP id gB1FM3709883; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 16:22:04 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Message-Id: <200212011522.gB1FM3709883@c3po.skynet.be> From: "Mario Goebbels" To: "'Walter'" , "'FreeBSD Advocacy'" Subject: RE: How NSA access was built into Windows Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 16:22:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 11.0.4523 In-Reply-To: <3DEA0AD5.1090704@earthlink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3663.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You're kidding, right? -mg > Though a fairly old story, I just received this in an e-mail > and I thought it appropriate for Advocacy. > > > > (A prior attempt to send the whole page failed, I'll presume > because it got send as an attachment.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Dec 1 9:13:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C22FE37B401 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:13:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 767DE43E4A for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:13:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from walterk1@earthlink.net) Received: from user-0cal9lv.cable.mindspring.com ([24.170.166.191] helo=earthlink.net) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18IXfC-00059D-00 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 09:13:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3DEA434D.20607@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 12:13:49 -0500 From: Walter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: How NSA access was built into Windows References: <200212011522.gB1FM3709883@c3po.skynet.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG No - should I be? :-} Mario Goebbels wrote: > You're kidding, right? > > -mg > > >>Though a fairly old story, I just received this in an e-mail >>and I thought it appropriate for Advocacy. >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Dec 1 10:44:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3771937B401; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:44:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from vectors.cx (manifold.vectors.cx [64.163.147.229]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4CDA43EC2; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:44:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from monkey@vectors.cx) Received: from vectors.cx (10ea4ddde9927cb34318307f618d026f@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vectors.cx (8.12.6/8.12.4) with ESMTP id gB1IkkI8075013; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:46:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from monkey@vectors.cx) Received: (from monkey@localhost) by vectors.cx (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gB1Ikjlj075012; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:46:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from monkey) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:46:45 -0800 From: Adam Weinberger To: paul beard Cc: "Marc G. Fournier" , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of big names ... Message-ID: <20021201184645.GD60177@vectors.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DEA5425.4050007@mac.com> X-Editor: Vim 6.1 http://www.vim.org X-Mailer: Mutt 1.5 http://www.mutt.org X-PGP-Key: http://www.vectors.cx/pgp.key.txt X-URL: http://www.vectors.cx http://www.crackula.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Please take this to advocacy. This banter doesn't belong on the questions list. # Adam >> (12.01.2002 @ 1025 PST): paul beard said, in 1.3K: << > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > >Other then that I know Yahoo! uses FreeBSD ... is there a list > >that anyone is maintain about who is using it? I've been > >having discussions with a partner for awhile now about whether > >we should launch a product with a base OS of linux vs freebsd > >... and its tiring to try and argue against "but, nobody is > >accepting FreeBSD ... everyone (IBM, HP, Sun, etc) is falling > >behind Linux" ... > > > > Apple seems to think pretty highly of FreeBSD. And there are the > oft-repeated rumors that WinNT/2000/XP all use the BSD TCP stack. > > Having used both, I would never choose Linux over FreeBSD. > > >Do we have *anything* ... case studies or the like, from big > >names that have decided *for* FreeBSD over Linux, with a sort > >of 'why' discusion? > > > > F5 Systems based their load balancers/switches on BSD and a > follow-on company started by one of the founders (Ahaza Systems, > now defunct) was going to build IPv6-aware switching gear based on > FreeBSD. > > -- > Paul Beard / 8040 27th Ave NE / Seattle WA 98115 / > paulbeard [at] mac [ dot] com / 206 529 8400 > > weblog @ > > She missed an invaluable opportunity to give him a look that you could > have poured on a waffle ... > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > >> end of "Re: List of big names ..." from paul beard << - -- Adam Weinberger vectors.cx >> adam@vectors.cx FreeBSD.org << adamw@FreeBSD.ORG Bayer Berkeley >> adam.weinberger.b@bayer.com #vim:set ts=8: 8-char tabs prevent tooth decay. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE96lkVo8KM2ULHQ/0RAoSkAJ9VHv0u6N6ahmDwaDmGjGCSdG1/BQCePjaE 4DtZY1Pkdemk1n/mLi68d2k= =sAJh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Dec 1 11:10:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0435337B404 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 11:10:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from rhadamanth.submonkey.net (pc1-cdif2-5-cust47.cdf.cable.ntl.com [81.101.150.47]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049E843ECF for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 11:10:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by rhadamanth.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.10) id 18IZTm-0001Uk-00; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 19:10:10 +0000 Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 19:10:10 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: Walter Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: How NSA access was built into Windows Message-ID: <20021201191010.GB4334@submonkey.net> References: <200212011522.gB1FM3709883@c3po.skynet.be> <3DEA434D.20607@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3DEA434D.20607@earthlink.net> X-message-flag: All your linuxconf-configured redhat are belong to us. X-message-flag-attribution: suresh, sdm. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Dec 01, 2002 at 12:13:49PM -0500, Walter wrote: > Mario Goebbels wrote: > > Walter wrote: > > > >>Though a fairly old story, I just received this in an e-mail > >>and I thought it appropriate for Advocacy. > >> > >> > >You're kidding, right? > No - should I be? :-} Yes, this has nothing to do with FreeBSD. Ceri -- Your cowardice shall be your reckoning! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Dec 1 15:23:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8201737B401; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:23:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 226D143ED4; Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:23:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0208.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.208] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18IdQz-0003Nz-00; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 15:23:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3DEA99A6.ED08AD2F@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 15:22:14 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adam Weinberger Cc: paul beard , "Marc G. Fournier" , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of big names ... References: <20021201184645.GD60177@vectors.cx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Adam Weinberger wrote: > Please take this to advocacy. This banter doesn't belong on the > questions list. FWIW: If you examine the history of this thread, you will see that it was posted to -questions, and "Bcc:"'ed to -advocacy. If you need to assign blame, assign it to the original poster, which the headers claim is "Marc G. Fournier" . -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 7: 6:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EFE637B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:06:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.online.ie (mail.online.ie [213.159.130.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A94043E88 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:06:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Received: from cooperationireland.org (unknown [217.67.143.158]) by mail.online.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E993B024 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:06:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from IT3 (it3 [199.107.2.144]) by cooperationireland.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id gB2F56R61048 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:05:06 GMT (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20021202150428.00d11818@199.107.2.1> X-Sender: relyod@199.107.2.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 15:04:28 +0000 To: advocacy@freebsd.org From: Mike Doyle Subject: Article in The Register Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG An article in The Register today mentions FreeBSD in a very favourable light, in the context of discussing dirty tricks by the sales reps of the big monopoly we all love to pretend to hate. :-) http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/28386.html <>< ============================================================= ><> Michael Doyle email: relyod@cooperationireland.org Network Administrator personal email: relyod@indigo.ie Co-operation Ireland http://www.cooperationireland.org/ Phone: +353-1-661 0588 Fax: +353-1-661 8456 ********************************************************************* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 7:22:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F29B37B412; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:22:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4857A43ECD; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:22:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4621F8A920D; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:22:20 -0400 (AST) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:22:20 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Adam Weinberger , paul beard , , Subject: Re: List of big names ... In-Reply-To: <3DEA99A6.ED08AD2F@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20021202111959.P6214-100000@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 1 Dec 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Adam Weinberger wrote: > > Please take this to advocacy. This banter doesn't belong on the > > questions list. > > FWIW: If you examine the history of this thread, you will see that > it was posted to -questions, and "Bcc:"'ed to -advocacy. > > If you need to assign blame, assign it to the original poster, > which the headers claim is "Marc G. Fournier" . Ummm, I never BCC'd to -advocacy, only sent it to -questions ... totally forgot about the -advocacy group even though I am on that list :( We, at the PostgreSQL project, just recently setup http://advocacy.postgresql.org to start pushing case-studies of those deploying with PgSQL ... has anyone looked at a http://advocacy.freebsd.org site for similar? With as much press as Linux gets, it would be really nice to have a site to go to that was purely marketing ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 7:30:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B9F837B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:30:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rhadamanth.submonkey.net (pc1-cdif2-5-cust47.cdf.cable.ntl.com [81.101.150.47]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4A8743EAF for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:30:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by rhadamanth.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.10) id 18IsWt-000A9W-00; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 15:30:39 +0000 Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:30:39 +0000 From: Ceri Davies To: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of big names ... Message-ID: <20021202153039.GA38995@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , "Marc G. Fournier" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3DEA99A6.ED08AD2F@mindspring.com> <20021202111959.P6214-100000@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021202111959.P6214-100000@hub.org> X-message-flag: All your linuxconf-configured redhat are belong to us. X-message-flag-attribution: suresh, sdm. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 11:22:20AM -0400, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > We, at the PostgreSQL project, just recently setup > http://advocacy.postgresql.org to start pushing case-studies of those > deploying with PgSQL This is a particularly nice site as well - we would do well to stea^Wlearn from this site. Ceri -- From the hearth of the battleaxe I come! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 7:32:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C0FB37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:32:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from web14904.mail.yahoo.com (web14904.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.225.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 372D443EC5 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:32:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from samdavidpikesley@yahoo.co.uk) Message-ID: <20021202153208.3201.qmail@web14904.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.202.214.45] by web14904.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 15:32:08 GMT Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:32:08 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Sam=20Pikesley?= Subject: Re: Article in The Register To: Mike Doyle , advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20021202150428.00d11818@199.107.2.1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hehe that's very good, I like the way the Monopolysoft droids keep banging on about Linux despite being told the guy isn't using Linux. Does this mean that FreeBSD is sneaking under their radar? Sam --- Mike Doyle wrote: > An article in The Register today mentions FreeBSD in > a very favourable > light, in the context of discussing dirty tricks by > the sales reps > of the big monopoly we all love to pretend to hate. > :-) > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/28386.html > > <>< > ============================================================= > ><> > Michael Doyle email: > relyod@cooperationireland.org > Network Administrator personal email: > relyod@indigo.ie > Co-operation Ireland > http://www.cooperationireland.org/ > Phone: +353-1-661 0588 > Fax: +353-1-661 8456 > > ********************************************************************* > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of > the message ===== FreeBSD: It Just Works __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 11: 2:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA60C37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:02:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from thor.acuson.com (thor.acuson.com [157.226.71.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8FCF43EB2 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:02:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com (mvaexch02.acuson.com [157.226.230.209]) by thor.acuson.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H6I00HWMA7VNN@thor.acuson.com> for advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:02:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 10:57:26 -0800 Received: from balderdash.acuson.com (dhcp-46-182.acuson.com [157.226.46.182]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id V00LSKR5; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 10:59:29 -0800 Content-return: allowed Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:02:15 -0800 From: Johnson David Subject: Re: 5.0-DP2 In-reply-to: <20021127102701.GA41083@xion.void> To: Daniel Mundy , advocacy@FreeBSD.org Message-id: <200212021102.15488.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Organization: Siemens Medical Systems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <200211191145.12974.avleeuwen@piwebs.com> <200211191056.44469.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <20021127102701.GA41083@xion.void> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday 27 November 2002 02:27 am, Daniel Mundy wrote: > On Wed Nov 20, 2002 at 05:26:44AM CST, Johnson David wrote: > > FreeBSD can now treat ATA devices as SCSI devices. Software that expects > > SCSI hardware can now be used even if your hardware is the common and > > inexpensive ATA format. Now there is no need to reboot into another > > operating system to burn your Compact Discs. > > Was there ever such a need? > > See burncd(8) : > "burncd - control the ATAPI CD-R/RW driver" Oh, but is was a need. It's called a user interface. Whether this interface is graphical or textual is irrelevant, but the usability of combining mkisofs and cdrdao with cdrecord (or burncd) is real. Since there are no UI frontends to burncd, treating ATA devices as SCSI means I can now use cdrecord and its frontends instead. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 11:45:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C703D37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:45:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from thor.acuson.com (thor.acuson.com [157.226.71.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FD343EA9 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:45:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com (mvaexch02.acuson.com [157.226.230.209]) by thor.acuson.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H6I00HJTC7AN3@thor.acuson.com> for advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:40:17 -0800 Received: from acuson.com (bull.acuson.com [157.226.46.72]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id V00LSL2L; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:42:19 -0800 Content-return: allowed Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:45:01 -0800 From: Johnson David Subject: Re: Article in The Register To: advocacy@freebsd.org Message-id: <3DEBB83D.4030209@acuson.com> Organization: Acuson MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020611 References: <3.0.5.32.20021202150428.00d11818@199.107.2.1> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Doyle wrote: > An article in The Register today mentions FreeBSD in a very favourable > light, in the context of discussing dirty tricks by the sales reps > of the big monopoly we all love to pretend to hate. :-) > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/28386.html Maybe we can play the same game... Show this article to the IT guy blocking your move to FreeBSD. Tell him to set up a test case for FreeBSD. Leak the news to his MS rep. Have the rep come in and offer free licenses for the software we're going to use anyway. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 12:47:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C38FC37B404 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:47:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from thor.acuson.com (thor.acuson.com [157.226.71.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B5C43EB2 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:47:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com (mvaexch02.acuson.com [157.226.230.209]) by thor.acuson.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H6I00HWXF24NO@thor.acuson.com> for advocacy@freeBSD.org; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 12:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 12:41:58 -0800 Received: from balderdash.acuson.com (dhcp-46-133.acuson.com [157.226.46.133]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id V00LSMFQ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 12:44:01 -0800 Content-return: allowed Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 12:46:48 -0800 From: Johnson David Subject: Re: List of big names ... In-reply-to: <20021201023429.G6214-100000@hub.org> To: advocacy@freeBSD.org Message-id: <200212021246.48260.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Organization: Siemens Medical Systems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <20021201023429.G6214-100000@hub.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Saturday 30 November 2002 10:57 pm, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Other then that I know Yahoo! uses FreeBSD ... is there a list that anyone > is maintain about who is using it? I've been having discussions with a > partner for awhile now about whether we should launch a product with a > base OS of linux vs freebsd ... and its tiring to try and argue against > "but, nobody is accepting FreeBSD ... everyone (IBM, HP, Sun, etc) is > falling behind Linux" ... > > Do we have *anything* ... case studies or the like, from big names that > have decided *for* FreeBSD over Linux, with a sort of 'why' discusion? Do we need big names? Do we really need a user base that insists on using what the Joneses are using? The "everyone" that's falling behind Linux are just a handful of mega-corporations. When you look at small corporations and businesses, there are quite a few that use FreeBSD instead of Linux. My ISP is one of them. But announcing my ISP in a list to impress corporate bigwigs isn't going to impress anyone. Corporations are a funny sort of creature. They only like doing business with other corporations. Strange but true. Every service my company uses MUST be provided by a corporation, from the janitors to the catering to travel agencies. Those big name Linux adopters aren't using Debian, Slackware or Gentoo, they're using Redhat Inc. There are a couple of things that FreeBSD could do, short of selling its soul through incorporation. One thing that might be interesting is to make the Linux compatibility framework be LSB compliant (if possible). Another is to set up a foundation, so there's at least some semblance of hiearchical organization. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 13:12: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD9D637B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:12:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55CF543EC2 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:12:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Received: by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 27452579C; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:11:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25B6A579B; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:11:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:11:53 -0800 (PST) From: Linh Pham To: Johnson David Cc: advocacy@freeBSD.org Subject: Re: List of big names ... In-Reply-To: <200212021246.48260.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Message-ID: <20021202131038.C3361-100000@q.closedsrc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2002-12-02, Johnson David scribbled: # Do we need big names? Do we really need a user base that insists on using what # the Joneses are using? The "everyone" that's falling behind Linux are just a # handful of mega-corporations. When you look at small corporations and # businesses, there are quite a few that use FreeBSD instead of Linux. My ISP # is one of them. But announcing my ISP in a list to impress corporate bigwigs # isn't going to impress anyone. It's not much, but I have a short list of companies and/or groups that are using FreeBSD, at least for their front-end websites. The short list is currently on http://bsdnotlinux.org (it's a domain I had registered a while ago and finally got a chance recently to start something with it). -- Linh Pham lplist@closedsrc.org Webmaster and FreeBSD Geek http://closedsrc.org closedsrc.org Every solution breeds new problems To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 13:47:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80EFE37B401; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:47:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20EAB43E88; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:47:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0225.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.225] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18IyPF-0002KF-00; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:47:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3DEBD48C.91B0BBF1@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:45:48 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: Adam Weinberger , paul beard , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of big names ... References: <20021202111959.P6214-100000@hub.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Marc G. Fournier" wrote: > > FWIW: If you examine the history of this thread, you will see that > > it was posted to -questions, and "Bcc:"'ed to -advocacy. > > > > If you need to assign blame, assign it to the original poster, > > which the headers claim is "Marc G. Fournier" . > > Ummm, I never BCC'd to -advocacy, only sent it to -questions ... totally > forgot about the -advocacy group even though I am on that list :( That's bizarre. The headers claim it came in via -advocacy; I can post them if you want. At first, I thought the hidden cross-post was a troll... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 13:50:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A500237B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:50:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from thor.acuson.com (thor.acuson.com [157.226.71.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C37BE43ECD for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:50:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com (mvaexch02.acuson.com [157.226.230.209]) by thor.acuson.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H6I00H74I0QNN@thor.acuson.com> for advocacy@freeBSD.org; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:50:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:45:56 -0800 Received: from balderdash.acuson.com (dhcp-46-133.acuson.com [157.226.46.133]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id V00LSN1Y; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:47:57 -0800 Content-return: allowed Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:50:44 -0800 From: Johnson David Subject: Re: List of big names ... In-reply-to: <20021202131038.C3361-100000@q.closedsrc.org> To: Linh Pham Cc: advocacy@freeBSD.org Message-id: <200212021350.44145.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Organization: Siemens Medical Systems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <20021202131038.C3361-100000@q.closedsrc.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday 02 December 2002 01:11 pm, Linh Pham wrote: > It's not much, but I have a short list of companies and/or groups that > are using FreeBSD, at least for their front-end websites. The short list > is currently on http://bsdnotlinux.org (it's a domain I had registered a > while ago and finally got a chance recently to start something with it). Some other sites running FreeBSD include: www.affinity.com www.sony.co.jp www.cdrom.com www.stallman.org (!) So, who is NOT using Linux? www.ibm.com (AIX) www.hp.com (HP-UX) www.sun.com (Solaris) www.sgi.com (IRIX) Gee, if those big names on the Linux bandwagon aren't using Linux, why should we? Actions speak louder than words. And the actions say that these corporations still eat their own dogfood. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 14:21:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A15D37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:21:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net (conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.54]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7F343E9C for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:21:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0225.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.225] helo=mindspring.com) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18IywW-0005p7-00; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 14:21:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3DEBDC98.FB733674@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 14:20:08 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johnson David Cc: advocacy@freeBSD.org Subject: Re: List of big names ... References: <20021201023429.G6214-100000@hub.org> <200212021246.48260.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Johnson David wrote: > Do we need big names? "Big names" are a marketing tool: nothing more, and nothing less. > Do we really need a user base that insists on using what the > Joneses are using? If "the Joneses" are using FreeBSD, then yes. As in any marketing, the ends justify the means. It doesn't really matter *why* someone picks FreeBSD over another OS, only that they *do so*. > The "everyone" that's falling behind Linux are just a handful of > mega-corporations. When you look at small corporations and > businesses, there are quite a few that use FreeBSD instead of Linux For the purposes of this discussion, the "small corporations" you are referring to are "big names". > My ISP is one of them. But announcing my ISP in a list to impress > corporate bigwigs isn't going to impress anyone. Sure it is. A happy reference account is a happy reference account. This is not like we are trying to convince IBM, or GM, or Chevron to switch to FreeBSD... he isn't trying to reference into a huge corporation, he's trying to reference into a small company that's looking at FreeBSD as an embedded systems platform. The best reference accounts for any company are (1) Successful companies in the same market, and (2) Successful companies that are larger than the company in question, since all companies expect to grow, and want to know what they are going to be growing into won't make them change their decision later. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 14:22:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CB6F37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:22:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFAC743EC5 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:22:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Received: by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 6066A579C; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EEDC579A; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:22:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:22:17 -0800 (PST) From: Linh Pham To: Johnson David Cc: advocacy@freeBSD.org Subject: Re: List of big names ... In-Reply-To: <200212021350.44145.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Message-ID: <20021202141757.W3664-100000@q.closedsrc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2002-12-02, Johnson David scribbled: # Some other sites running FreeBSD include: # # www.affinity.com # www.sony.co.jp # www.cdrom.com # www.stallman.org (!) Thanks! I've added those sites to the page now. It's funny that RMS is running FreeBSD on the server rather than Lin^H^H^H GNU/Linux. I think it's a double-edged sword for companies like IBM, Sun and SGI to run Linux for their front-end web servers. People would wonder if those companies had any faith in their own (proprietary) operating systems running as fairly mission-critical web servers. -- Linh Pham lplist@closedsrc.org Webmaster and FreeBSD Geek http://closedsrc.org closedsrc.org Every solution breeds new problems To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 14:55: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8420837B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:55:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from thor.acuson.com (thor.acuson.com [157.226.71.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0047643E4A for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:55:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com (mvaexch02.acuson.com [157.226.230.209]) by thor.acuson.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H6I00H3HKZJNO@thor.acuson.com> for advocacy@freeBSD.org; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 14:54:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 14:50:02 -0800 Received: from acuson.com (dhcp-46-188.acuson.com [157.226.46.188]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id V00LS3D2; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 14:52:01 -0800 Content-return: allowed Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 14:54:46 -0800 From: Johnson David Subject: Re: List of big names ... To: Linh Pham Cc: advocacy@freeBSD.org Message-id: <3DEBE4B6.2080008@acuson.com> Organization: Acuson MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020826 References: <20021202141757.W3664-100000@q.closedsrc.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Linh Pham wrote: > Thanks! I've added those sites to the page now. It's funny that RMS is > running FreeBSD on the server rather than Lin^H^H^H GNU/Linux. Well, it's not really him, it's his ISP. Sort of like www.openbsd.org being run on Solaris. But it's still funny. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 15: 8:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8739037B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:08:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44C6A43EBE for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:08:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D08F78A901F; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 19:08:03 -0400 (AST) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 19:08:03 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Linh Pham Cc: Johnson David , Subject: Re: List of big names ... In-Reply-To: <20021202141757.W3664-100000@q.closedsrc.org> Message-ID: <20021202190744.U36076-100000@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mre sites to add: http://www.postgresql.org http://www.pgsql.com if you want them ... :) On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Linh Pham wrote: > On 2002-12-02, Johnson David scribbled: > > # Some other sites running FreeBSD include: > # > # www.affinity.com > # www.sony.co.jp > # www.cdrom.com > # www.stallman.org (!) > > Thanks! I've added those sites to the page now. It's funny that RMS is > running FreeBSD on the server rather than Lin^H^H^H GNU/Linux. > > I think it's a double-edged sword for companies like IBM, Sun and SGI to > run Linux for their front-end web servers. People would wonder if those > companies had any faith in their own (proprietary) operating systems > running as fairly mission-critical web servers. > > -- > > Linh Pham lplist@closedsrc.org > Webmaster and FreeBSD Geek http://closedsrc.org > closedsrc.org Every solution breeds new problems > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 15:21: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E72537B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:21:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [66.11.174.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C3CE43EB2 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:21:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20A73F4E; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:20:50 -0500 (EST) From: "Dan Langille" To: Johnson David Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 18:20:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: List of big names ... Cc: advocacy@freeBSD.org Message-ID: <3DEBA482.24174.F879E012@localhost> In-reply-to: <3DEBE4B6.2080008@acuson.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2 Dec 2002 at 14:54, Johnson David wrote: > Linh Pham wrote: > > > Thanks! I've added those sites to the page now. It's funny that RMS is > > running FreeBSD on the server rather than Lin^H^H^H GNU/Linux. > > Well, it's not really him, it's his ISP. Sort of like www.openbsd.org > being run on Solaris. But it's still funny. FWIW, http://www.freebsddiary.org/ was hosted at a webfarm for some time. The webfarm ran Linux. I just checked http://www.netcraft.com/ but their history doesn't go back that far. -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 15:21:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E76F37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout09.sul.t-online.com (mailout09.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.84]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F5243EC5 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:21:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fwd08.sul.t-online.de by mailout09.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 18IzsR-0007Lc-02; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 00:21:23 +0100 Received: from jhs.muc.de (520006753247-0001@[217.235.121.5]) by fmrl08.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 18IzsC-0Bsg1QC; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 00:21:08 +0100 Received: from flip.jhs.private (flip.jhs.private [192.168.91.24]) by jhs.muc.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB2NRHC99874; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 00:27:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from flip.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by flip.jhs.private (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB2NR2m13247; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 00:27:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@flip.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200212022327.gB2NR2m13247@flip.jhs.private> To: Johnson David Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of big names ... From: "Julian Stacey" Organization: Vector Systems Ltd, Munich Unix & System Engineering Consultancy X-Web: http://berklix.com/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Dec 2002 12:46:48 PST." <200212021246.48260.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 00:27:01 +0100 X-Sender: 520006753247-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > From: Johnson David > Linux compatibility framework be LSB compliant (if possible). Another is to > set up a foundation, so there's at least some semblance of hiearchical > organization. A FreeBSD Foundation exists. From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: FreeBSD-Announce@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The FreeBSD Foundation -- an introduction Message-Id: <20010627123459.9CF3737B40A@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 05:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Julian Stacey jhs @ berklix.com Computer Systems Engineer, Unix & Net Consultant, Munich. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 16: 6:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 795E637B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:06:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2795D43EBE for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:06:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Received: by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 3B41B579C; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36EC0579A; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:06:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:06:41 -0800 (PST) From: Linh Pham To: Dan Langille Cc: Johnson David , Subject: Re: List of big names ... In-Reply-To: <3DEBA482.24174.F879E012@localhost> Message-ID: <20021202160601.S4170-100000@q.closedsrc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2002-12-02, Dan Langille scribbled: # FWIW, http://www.freebsddiary.org/ was hosted at a webfarm for some # time. The webfarm ran Linux. The bit about it becoming Linux Diary does have some merit or background to it... :D -- Linh Pham lplist@closedsrc.org Webmaster and FreeBSD Geek http://closedsrc.org closedsrc.org Every solution breeds new problems To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 2 17:23:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B69A437B401 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from web11801.mail.yahoo.com (web11801.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.155]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 65D0843EBE for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:23:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20021203012309.60236.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.96.5] by web11801.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 02 Dec 2002 17:23:09 PST Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:23:09 -0800 (PST) From: Haikal Saadh Subject: Re: List of big names ... To: Linh Pham , Dan Langille Cc: Johnson David , advocacy@freeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20021202160601.S4170-100000@q.closedsrc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG While we're name dropping, freeshell.org is powered by a bunch of NetBSD machines. --- Linh Pham wrote: > On 2002-12-02, Dan Langille scribbled: > > # FWIW, http://www.freebsddiary.org/ was hosted at a webfarm for > some > # time. The webfarm ran Linux. > > The bit about it becoming Linux Diary does have some merit or > background > to it... :D > > -- > > Linh Pham > lplist@closedsrc.org > Webmaster and FreeBSD Geek > http://closedsrc.org > closedsrc.org Every solution breeds new > problems > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 3 9:24:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACA237B401; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:24:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D626843E4A; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:24:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4EC8A8DBA; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 13:23:58 -0400 (AST) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 13:23:58 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Adam Weinberger , paul beard , , Subject: Re: List of big names ... In-Reply-To: <3DEBD48C.91B0BBF1@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20021203132253.A36076-100000@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > "Marc G. Fournier" wrote: > > > FWIW: If you examine the history of this thread, you will see that > > > it was posted to -questions, and "Bcc:"'ed to -advocacy. > > > > > > If you need to assign blame, assign it to the original poster, > > > which the headers claim is "Marc G. Fournier" . > > > > Ummm, I never BCC'd to -advocacy, only sent it to -questions ... totally > > forgot about the -advocacy group even though I am on that list :( > > That's bizarre. The headers claim it came in via -advocacy; I > can post them if you want. > > At first, I thought the hidden cross-post was a troll... Nope, I generally avoid trolling on mailing lists ... this whole thread was a very serious one, since one of the major hurdles I know I experience is trying to explain to someone going FreeBSD when everyone else and their dog have jump'd behind Linux :( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 3 9:26:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBC4C37B401 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:26:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8090F43EC2 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:26:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47BD28A8BD7 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 13:26:28 -0400 (AST) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 13:26:28 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Anyone in Ottawa, Canada ... "Open Source Weekend" ... Message-ID: <20021203132439.Q36076-100000@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From what I'm reading, its quite Linux centric ... don't know if there are any *BSD user groups or anything in the area that could 'party crash' of sorts: http://www.osw.ca/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 3 10: 6:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECA7437B401 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:06:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB63943ED4 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:06:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [64.49.215.141]) by hub.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2597A8A3303; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:06:57 -0400 (AST) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:06:57 -0400 (AST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Johnson David Cc: advocacy@freeBSD.org Subject: Re: List of big names ... In-Reply-To: <200212021246.48260.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Message-ID: <20021203140503.L36076-100000@hub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Johnson David wrote: > Do we need big names? Do we really need a user base that insists on > using what the Joneses are using? The "everyone" that's falling behind > Linux are just a handful of mega-corporations. When you look at small > corporations and businesses, there are quite a few that use FreeBSD > instead of Linux. My ISP is one of them. But announcing my ISP in a list > to impress corporate bigwigs isn't going to impress anyone. Actually, you'd be surprised ... the argument that I just had thrown at me dealt exactly with the fact that the co-lo and dedicated server ISPs out there are supporting Linux, not FreeBSD ... > There are a couple of things that FreeBSD could do, short of selling its > soul through incorporation. One thing that might be interesting is to > make the Linux compatibility framework be LSB compliant (if possible). > Another is to set up a foundation, so there's at least some semblance of > hiearchical organization. Ummmm ... there used to be a FreeBSD Foundation, wasn't there? In fact, I thought that FreeBSD was incorporated as a non-profit as well? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 3 10:19:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C9EC37B401 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:19:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from thor.acuson.com (thor.acuson.com [157.226.71.79]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D24DC43E9C for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:19:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02.acuson.com (mvaexch02.acuson.com [157.226.230.209]) by thor.acuson.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 (built Feb 21 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H6K00J8S2VW8T@thor.acuson.com> for advocacy@freeBSD.org; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 10:19:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 10:14:14 -0800 Received: from balderdash.acuson.com (dhcp-46-133.acuson.com [157.226.46.133]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id V00LSZ52; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 10:16:11 -0800 Content-return: allowed Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 10:19:03 -0800 From: Johnson David Subject: Re: List of big names ... In-reply-to: <20021203140503.L36076-100000@hub.org> To: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: advocacy@freeBSD.org Message-id: <200212031019.03352.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Organization: Siemens Medical Systems MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3 References: <20021203140503.L36076-100000@hub.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday 03 December 2002 10:06 am, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Johnson David wrote: > > Do we need big names? Do we really need a user base that insists on > > using what the Joneses are using? The "everyone" that's falling behind > > Linux are just a handful of mega-corporations. When you look at small > > corporations and businesses, there are quite a few that use FreeBSD > > instead of Linux. My ISP is one of them. But announcing my ISP in a list > > to impress corporate bigwigs isn't going to impress anyone. > > Actually, you'd be surprised ... the argument that I just had thrown at me > dealt exactly with the fact that the co-lo and dedicated server ISPs out > there are supporting Linux, not FreeBSD ... Well, in that case there are thousands of ISPs using FreeBSD. I don't know who they all are, so I can't give you a list. My own ISP is www.meer.net, who just switched from IRIX. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 3 10:26:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF67437B401 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:26:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6212F43EA9 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:26:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: from blackhelicopters.org (mwlucas@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blackhelicopters.org (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gB3IQKYc054632; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 13:26:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id gB3IQKWD054631; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 13:26:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 13:26:20 -0500 From: Michael Lucas To: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: Johnson David , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of big names ... Message-ID: <20021203132620.A54590@blackhelicopters.org> References: <200212021246.48260.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <20021203140503.L36076-100000@hub.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20021203140503.L36076-100000@hub.org>; from scrappy@hub.org on Tue, Dec 03, 2002 at 02:06:57PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Dec 03, 2002 at 02:06:57PM -0400, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Johnson David wrote: > > There are a couple of things that FreeBSD could do, short of selling its > > soul through incorporation. One thing that might be interesting is to > > make the Linux compatibility framework be LSB compliant (if possible). > > Another is to set up a foundation, so there's at least some semblance of > > hiearchical organization. > > Ummmm ... there used to be a FreeBSD Foundation, wasn't there? In fact, I > thought that FreeBSD was incorporated as a non-profit as well? www.freebsdfoundation.org There is also a FreeBSD, inc. IIRC, it is owned by Wind River Systems. -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@FreeBSD.org, mwlucas@BlackHelicopters.org http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons Absolute BSD: http://www.AbsoluteBSD.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 3 10:32: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 803AD37B401 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:32:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.jpcampbell.com (adsl-64-164-212-130.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.164.212.130]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8027843ED8 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:32:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jpc@xzuberant.com) Received: by mail.jpcampbell.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5FB045D53; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:32:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:32:00 -0800 From: "John P. Campbell" To: Johnson David Cc: "Marc G. Fournier" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of big names ... Message-ID: <20021203183200.GA62904@jpcampbell.com> Reply-To: jpc@xzuberant.com References: <20021203140503.L36076-100000@hub.org> <200212031019.03352.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200212031019.03352.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Dec 03, 2002 at 10:19:03AM -0800, Johnson David wrote: > Well, in that case there are thousands of ISPs using FreeBSD. I > don't know who they all are, so I can't give you a list. My own Verio uses FreeBSD. I used to do support and development for a local business who used it for their web hosting and mail services. It's a very large ISP. Talking to their tech support, they were very pro FreeBSD. jpc To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 3 11: 5:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85FC237B401 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:05:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail15.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.215]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 152B043E9C for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:05:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 25155 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2002 19:05:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail15.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 3 Dec 2002 19:05:43 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gB3J5auH038002; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:05:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20021203132620.A54590@blackhelicopters.org> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:05:43 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Michael Lucas Subject: Re: List of big names ... Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Johnson David , "Marc G. Fournier" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Dec-2002 Michael Lucas wrote: > On Tue, Dec 03, 2002 at 02:06:57PM -0400, Marc G. Fournier wrote: >> On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Johnson David wrote: >> > There are a couple of things that FreeBSD could do, short of selling its >> > soul through incorporation. One thing that might be interesting is to >> > make the Linux compatibility framework be LSB compliant (if possible). >> > Another is to set up a foundation, so there's at least some semblance of >> > hiearchical organization. >> >> Ummmm ... there used to be a FreeBSD Foundation, wasn't there? In fact, I >> thought that FreeBSD was incorporated as a non-profit as well? > > www.freebsdfoundation.org > > There is also a FreeBSD, inc. IIRC, it is owned by Wind River Systems. No, there is no FreeBSD, Inc. as far as I know. If there still is (I think there was at one time) it is probably still in the hands of David Greenman. FreeBSD, Inc. was not a 501(c)3 however. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 3 11:16:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B85B737B407 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:16:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from crf-consulting.co.uk (pc-80-194-99-103-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [80.194.99.103]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BBEE43EC2 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:15:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@freebsd.org) Received: from freebsd.org ([192.168.1.112]) by crf-consulting.co.uk (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id gB3JFnTk008980; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 19:15:49 GMT (envelope-from nik@freebsd.org) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 18:15:52 +0000 Subject: Re: Companies awaiting 5.0 technology Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v548) Cc: Eric Anderson , advocacy@freebsd.org To: Johnson David From: Nik Clayton In-Reply-To: <200211081054.19159.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Message-Id: <424B1D56-06EB-11D7-9371-000393863D48@freebsd.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.548) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 06:54 PM, Johnson David wrote: [ ... list of features in 5.0 elided ... ] > As an ex-salesman recovered enough to admit it, features are not > "cool", > benefits are. The above is a list of features. Only a geek would find > it > sexy. We need a list of benefits. A feature is a "what is it", a > benefit is a > "what it does for you." Here's a something I've been knocking around for the past few days. I'm more than happy to renounce ownership of this if someone else cares to give it the care and polish it needs. -------- 8< cut here 8< -------- 8< cut here 8< -------- FreeBSD 5.0 Benefits So, what are the real benefits of FreeBSD 5.0? That's going to depend on what sort of a FreeBSD user you are. Administrator As an administrator, you'll benefit from the increased security features, providing a much finer grain of control over access to the system. The use of PAM across all the system utilities for authentication makes it much easier to (for example) ensure that everything authenticates against your LDAP or RADIUS servers. The "jail" subsystem, which allows you to run multiple distinct operating system environments on one host has been extended, and can now support per-jail secure levels, an important security feature, particularly for organisations providing co-hosting and co-location services. Improvements to the disk system, such as snapshots and background fsck, mean that FreeBSD's has a faster start up time, and it's possible to take consistent backups of filesystems without ensuring that they're quiescent first, improving reliability. FreeBSD's software RAID support has been extended with the addition of the RAIDFrame framework, allowing you to build more reliable systems. The revamped SMP support means that you'll now get more bang per buck on multi-CPU systems, giving more power from your existing hardware investment. And if your systems do a lot of work with encrypted data (e.g., webservers supporting HTTPS) then you'll benefit from the new support for hardware crypto cards, which offload most of the encryption work to a separate dedicated processor. The new infrastructure for system start up scripts means its even easier to integrate your own startup services in to the system, and ensure that they start in the correct order, even as other services are added or removed. There have been numerous improvements to FreeBSD's networking stack and device drivers, including support for "zero copy", which removes a key bottleneck in network throughput. Developer If you use FreeBSD as your development platform then you will benefit from a host of new changes. C and C++ programmers will benefit from the updates to the gcc compiler and gdb debugger which ship with FreeBSD. These are now based on gcc 3.2.1 and gdb 5.2.1, incorporating updates and bug fixes from the GNU project. Perl programmers will benefit from the removal of Perl from the base FreeBSD system. Paradoxically this move makes it easier to install and maintain multiple versions of Perl, or Perl for different architectures, without being concerned that you might be inadvertently relying on the version of Perl shipped with FreeBSD. Various versions of the Perl interpreter are available in the FreeBSD ports system. XXX -- need more developer benefits User As an end user the most visible change is probably the increased hardware support. It's now even more likely that your USB devices will work with FreeBSD out of the box, including PDAs that use USB for data synchronisation, such as the Handspring Visor. Firewire devices are now supported, as are Bluetooth, opening up a range of third party storage and networking products. If you're running FreeBSD on a laptop then the Cardbus support is going to be useful, as are the continued enhancements to the ACPI system, making it much more likely that FreeBSD will be able to respond appropriately when the CPU speed drops, or you decide to suspend the system. If multimedia is important to you then the work that's gone in to support Direct Rendering Infrastructure (DRI) will doubtless be useful, as are the new audio drivers. And companies like nVidia are now realising the benefits of providing native FreeBSD drivers for their hardware. FreeBSD continues to support the KDE and GNOME environments, as well as a huge range of other window managers and supporting tools, so you'll benefit from all the work that's carried out by those groups. If you run any applications that depend on the Linux compatability layer then you'll be pleased to know that the layer (and the emulators/linux_base port that uses it) have been upgraded, and now correspond with those included with Red Hat Linux 7.1. XXX -- needs a snappy ending -------- 8< cut here 8< -------- 8< cut here 8< -------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 3 11:21:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73BC637B401; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:21:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2BF343EC5; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:21:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: from blackhelicopters.org (mwlucas@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blackhelicopters.org (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gB3JLAYc055028; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:21:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id gB3JLAEX055027; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:21:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:21:10 -0500 From: Michael Lucas To: John Baldwin Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org, Johnson David , "Marc G. Fournier" Subject: Re: List of big names ... Message-ID: <20021203142110.A55010@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20021203132620.A54590@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jhb@FreeBSD.org on Tue, Dec 03, 2002 at 02:05:43PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Dec 03, 2002 at 02:05:43PM -0500, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 03-Dec-2002 Michael Lucas wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 03, 2002 at 02:06:57PM -0400, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > >> On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Johnson David wrote: > >> > There are a couple of things that FreeBSD could do, short of selling its > >> > soul through incorporation. One thing that might be interesting is to > >> > make the Linux compatibility framework be LSB compliant (if possible). > >> > Another is to set up a foundation, so there's at least some semblance of > >> > hiearchical organization. > >> > >> Ummmm ... there used to be a FreeBSD Foundation, wasn't there? In fact, I > >> thought that FreeBSD was incorporated as a non-profit as well? > > > > www.freebsdfoundation.org > > > > There is also a FreeBSD, inc. IIRC, it is owned by Wind River Systems. > > No, there is no FreeBSD, Inc. as far as I know. If there still is (I > think there was at one time) it is probably still in the hands of David > Greenman. FreeBSD, Inc. was not a 501(c)3 however. You're right, it's the FreeBSD trademark I'm thinking of. Ignore me, I'm participating in a work-sponsored sleep-deprivation experiment. ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@FreeBSD.org, mwlucas@BlackHelicopters.org http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons Absolute BSD: http://www.AbsoluteBSD.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 3 11:24:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80A8C37B404 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail13.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.213]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D56043E4A for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:24:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 22377 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2002 19:24:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail13.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 3 Dec 2002 19:24:56 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gB3JOnuH038070; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:24:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <424B1D56-06EB-11D7-9371-000393863D48@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:24:56 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Nik Clayton Subject: Re: Companies awaiting 5.0 technology Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org, Eric Anderson , Johnson David Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Dec-2002 Nik Clayton wrote: > On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 06:54 PM, Johnson David wrote: > [ ... list of features in 5.0 elided ... ] > >> As an ex-salesman recovered enough to admit it, features are not >> "cool", >> benefits are. The above is a list of features. Only a geek would find >> it >> sexy. We need a list of benefits. A feature is a "what is it", a >> benefit is a >> "what it does for you." > > Here's a something I've been knocking around for the past few days. > I'm more than happy to renounce ownership of this if someone else cares > to give it the care and polish it needs. > > -------- 8< cut here 8< -------- 8< cut here 8< -------- > > FreeBSD 5.0 Benefits > > So, what are the real benefits of FreeBSD 5.0? That's going to depend > on what sort of a FreeBSD user you are. > > Administrator > > As an administrator, you'll benefit from the increased security > features, providing a much finer grain of control over access to the > system. The use of PAM across all the system utilities for > authentication makes it much easier to (for example) ensure that > everything authenticates against your LDAP or RADIUS servers. The > "jail" subsystem, which allows you to run multiple distinct operating > system environments on one host has been extended, and can now support > per-jail secure levels, an important security feature, particularly for > organisations providing co-hosting and co-location services. > > Improvements to the disk system, such as snapshots and background fsck, > mean that FreeBSD's has a faster start up time, and it's possible to > take consistent backups of filesystems without ensuring that they're > quiescent first, improving reliability. FreeBSD's software RAID > support has been extended with the addition of the RAIDFrame framework, > allowing you to build more reliable systems. Except that RAIDFrame is experimental, and we clearly need to mark it as such to avoid unncessary foot shooting and user complaints as a result. > The revamped SMP support means that you'll now get more bang per buck > on multi-CPU systems, giving more power from your existing hardware > investment. And if your systems do a lot of work with encrypted data > (e.g., webservers supporting HTTPS) then you'll benefit from the new > support for hardware crypto cards, which offload most of the encryption > work to a separate dedicated processor. Except that we are actually probably slower on SMP systems for kernel intensive things right now. SMPng is far from complete at this point. One thing that should be clear is that 5.0 is not going to be as fast as 4.x, and people need to weigh that against 5.0's new features when making their decision. Looks good other than that. Might want to mention that one no longer has to use MAKEDEV when one installs a new driver, with devfs the new driver just DTRT and the new devices automagically appear in /dev. Administrators also will probably like being able to use ACL's on filesystems now. Also, you can now safely dump live filesystems by dumping a snapshot of the filesystem. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 3 11:28:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E96A037B401 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:28:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7267443E4A for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:28:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 3724 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2002 19:28:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 3 Dec 2002 19:28:44 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gB3JSauH038095; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:28:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20021203142110.A55010@blackhelicopters.org> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:28:41 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Michael Lucas Subject: Re: List of big names ... Cc: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: "Marc G. Fournier" , Johnson David , advocacy@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Dec-2002 Michael Lucas wrote: > On Tue, Dec 03, 2002 at 02:05:43PM -0500, John Baldwin wrote: >> >> On 03-Dec-2002 Michael Lucas wrote: >> > On Tue, Dec 03, 2002 at 02:06:57PM -0400, Marc G. Fournier wrote: >> >> On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Johnson David wrote: >> >> > There are a couple of things that FreeBSD could do, short of selling its >> >> > soul through incorporation. One thing that might be interesting is to >> >> > make the Linux compatibility framework be LSB compliant (if possible). >> >> > Another is to set up a foundation, so there's at least some semblance of >> >> > hiearchical organization. >> >> >> >> Ummmm ... there used to be a FreeBSD Foundation, wasn't there? In fact, I >> >> thought that FreeBSD was incorporated as a non-profit as well? >> > >> > www.freebsdfoundation.org >> > >> > There is also a FreeBSD, inc. IIRC, it is owned by Wind River Systems. >> >> No, there is no FreeBSD, Inc. as far as I know. If there still is (I >> think there was at one time) it is probably still in the hands of David >> Greenman. FreeBSD, Inc. was not a 501(c)3 however. > > You're right, it's the FreeBSD trademark I'm thinking of. Ignore me, > I'm participating in a work-sponsored sleep-deprivation experiment. I think FreeBSDMall now has the FreeBSD trademark, but Murray is probably a better person to ask about that. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 3 12:54:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F377B37B401 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:54:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D02643EAF for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:54:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0140.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.140] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18JK3R-0006ZF-00; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 12:54:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3DED198C.9EB57955@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 12:52:28 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Lucas Cc: "Marc G. Fournier" , Johnson David , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: List of big names ... References: <200212021246.48260.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <20021203140503.L36076-100000@hub.org> <20021203132620.A54590@blackhelicopters.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Michael Lucas wrote: > There is also a FreeBSD, inc. IIRC, it is owned by Wind River Systems. Nope. Jordan. And it's lapsed, according to the records: http://kepler.ss.ca.gov/corpdata/ShowAllList?QueryCorpNumber=C1948888 The FreeBSD Mall is Bob Bruce: http://kepler.ss.ca.gov/corpdata/ShowAllList?QueryCorpNumber=C2363938 -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 3 13: 7:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B978837B401; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 13:07:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5989343E4A; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 13:07:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0140.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.140] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18JKGD-00035w-00; Tue, 03 Dec 2002 13:07:17 -0800 Message-ID: <3DED1C9C.EE6410D9@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 13:05:32 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: Michael Lucas , "Marc G. Fournier" , Johnson David , advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: List of big names ... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin wrote: > > You're right, it's the FreeBSD trademark I'm thinking of. Ignore me, > > I'm participating in a work-sponsored sleep-deprivation experiment. > > I think FreeBSDMall now has the FreeBSD trademark, but Murray is > probably a better person to ask about that. Walnut Creek CDROM owns it, and ownership remains there. It is *assigned* to Bob Bruce. http://tess.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=ajis8k.2.1 -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 3 13:26:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6967637B401; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 13:26:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.freebsdmall.com (ns1.freebsdmall.com [66.220.2.194]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25D9A43EA9; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 13:26:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@ns1.freebsdmall.com) Received: from ns1.freebsdmall.com (ns1.freebsdmall.com [66.220.2.194]) by mail.freebsdmall.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9852E81B; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 13:26:16 -0800 (PST) o: Terry Lambert Cc: John Baldwin , Michael Lucas , "Marc G. Fournier" , Johnson David , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, rab@freebsdmall.com Subject: Re: List of big names ... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 03 Dec 2002 13:05:32 PST." <3DED1C9C.EE6410D9@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 13:26:16 -0800 From: Robert Bruce Message-Id: <20021203212616.CE9852E81B@mail.freebsdmall.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert said... >John Baldwin wrote: >> > You're right, it's the FreeBSD trademark I'm thinking of. Ignore me, >> > I'm participating in a work-sponsored sleep-deprivation experiment. >> >> I think FreeBSDMall now has the FreeBSD trademark, but Murray is >> probably a better person to ask about that. > >Walnut Creek CDROM owns it, and ownership remains there. It is >*assigned* to Bob Bruce. But I don't own it. I signed it over to BSDi when they merged with WC-CDROM, and they sold it to Wind River. Wind River was going to give it back to me when I reacquired FreeBSD Mall, on the understanding that it would be assigned to the FreeBSD Foundation. But their lawyers took that out of the final agreement (not sure why). So regardless of what the USPTO website says, Wind River owns the "FreeBSD" trademark. -bob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 3 16:26:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C19A37B401; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:26:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B09243EC5; Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:26:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (12-236-99-13.client.attbi.com[12.236.99.13]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51) with SMTP id <20021204002629051007s7ege>; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:26:29 +0000 Message-ID: <3DED48BA.B5F4D65C@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 16:13:46 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Bruce Cc: John Baldwin , Michael Lucas , "Marc G. Fournier" , Johnson David , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, rab@freebsdmall.com Subject: Re: List of big names ... References: <20021203212616.CE9852E81B@mail.freebsdmall.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Robert Bruce wrote: > >Walnut Creek CDROM owns it, and ownership remains there. It is > >*assigned* to Bob Bruce. > > But I don't own it. I signed it over to BSDi when they merged > with WC-CDROM, and they sold it to Wind River. Wind River was > going to give it back to me when I reacquired FreeBSD Mall, on > the understanding that it would be assigned to the FreeBSD > Foundation. But their lawyers took that out of the final agreement > (not sure why). > > So regardless of what the USPTO website says, Wind River owns > the "FreeBSD" trademark. Thanks for the clarification! -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 4 3: 2:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3189137B401 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 03:02:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail017.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail017.syd.optusnet.com.au [210.49.20.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23E1343EAF for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 03:02:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from haikal@freeshell.org) Received: from warhawk (c17165.kelvn1.qld.optusnet.com.au [210.49.49.25]) by mail017.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gB4B2LC32396; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 22:02:21 +1100 From: "Haikal Saadh" To: "Andy Hung" , "Cameron Green (wildmail)" , "Cuong" , "dave" , "Jeremy Mawson" , "Nik Saers " , "Nishchal Kush" , , , "Wes Clarke" Cc: Subject: A FreeBSD User Reviews Mandrake. Let the flames flow. Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:02:13 +1000 Message-ID: <000001c29b84$9a400370$9802a8c0@warhawk> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I gave it a chance. Honest. But it still wasn't good enough. A bit of background. My laptop's been dormant for a while, underpowered, overworked dog that it is, but I need a laptop as will be on the go soon, and will need a computer of my own for internet access, and to store my photos until I get back to Home Base. I want a flavour of unix simply because, well, to bullet it out, O I hate windows 9x/ME, and my laptop's really too underpowered for 2k or xp. O I want to impress chicks (okay, fine, let's be realistic here...show my l33tness to my other friends, and impress (or upset) potential employers by nmap'ing their networks and setting their laserjets to use letter and triplicate instead if a4 because they were too slack to set a default password) After seeing all the hype about the new generation of linuxes, having a laptop to spare, (and seeing as how FreeBSD 5.0 is still not out yet), I decided to give Mandrake 9.0 a whirl. Before I went on, I decided to outline some requirements for my laptop. So here goes. Base Requirements: O No Bullshit setup/configuration. O Must work with my digital camera. O Must be able to get on the web with a Mozilla-type browser. O Must run evolution. Sorry, no other mailer will do. O Must be able to get on ICQ,YM,MSN, and IRC. O Must have an workable office suite. (OO.o or gnome office) Extended Requirements O Must be able to do stuff while listening to mp3's off an smb share. Super Extended Requirements O Must be able to run Adobe Illustrator and Macromedia flash (or equivalent) (dream) O Java! O Anything else I can think of. Okay, let's start from the beginning. The hardware Toshiba Satellite 2100CDT, 400mhzish cyrix chip, 64 meg ram, 3com pcmcia nic, 4g of harddrive space. The Installation. Package installation was a royal pain, as it was slow as, and in grand linux fashion, insisted on crapping shit all over my harddrive. The final install weighed in at around 2.5 gig, as the installer did give me gnome and kde, and I did not make any efforts to stop it. The installer itself, I found too colourful for my tastes...as if it was aimed at 7 year olds or something. All in all, not much substance. Took me way too long to get from bootup to formatting partitions, and from formatting to installing packages. An experience which I would not have to relive again. (Compared to FreeBSD's not as pretty, srprisingly much more functional installer. Once all that was done, It rebooted and gave me a gdm logon screen. Oh, and it had a pretty framebuffer thing which told you in nice colours what services were starting. Boy did it take ages to start...it took longer to start up that windows 98 used to. And in grand linux fashion, started up a whole heap of services which are highly unnecessary on a laptop. Saslauthd? Wtf is that? I don't use sasl to authenticate against anything. This is a lapop, which gets used on about three different subnets and has one user account. Why oh why. The first few hours... Were spent in frustration because my network card was not being detected. After much frustration at google and google groups not being able to answer my question, I finally set the bios setting to use 16-bit cardbus, and it worked. No mention of this setting having to do anything was mention on the web. (And google is the web as far as I'm concerned). Oh, and I forgot to mention, not having a configured network seems to upset a lot of things. Urgent looking (but ultimately harmless) messages saying things like (paraphrase) 'Could not find hostname, your network is seriously misconfigured' popping up on logging in. Well I have news for you, bub. The hostname is 'localhost'...at least that was what 'hostname' said. Right, anyhow, once I got the network card fired up, it didn't do anything. Didn't try to get a dhcp lease or anything. Frustration followed. Quick look at /etc/ made me hurl (why can't linux have /etc/rc.conf?), so I decided to try the fancy gui tools, of which there were quite a few. I tried linuxconf first, as that's what a lot of linux weenies like to talk about, and...It Didn't Work! Made some shoddy excuse before shitting itself. I tried the mandrake supplied tool, and haha! It worked. Newsflash, Mandrake dev team: Don't install tools that don't frigging work. FreeBSD's /stand/sysinstall, like the installer, may not be pretty, but it works. Everytime. And you have no other tools to confuse you either. Moving on... First thing I tried was see if my camera worked. It's a sony cybershot, which hooks in via usb and pretends to be USB drive. A mount /mnt/camera later, I could move files in and out. Woohoo! Of course, I could surf, and chat with xchat and gabber. So I was happy for a few days. I tried to install the software, but out of the box, the only source mandrake recognises are the CD's. I had to MANUALLY add an ftp source and an index file which I had to SEARCH for (it wasn't in any of the manuals, or within 5 clicks of the mandrake website or google). Compare and contrast, again to FreeBSD, which lets you pick whether to install packages off CD, ftp, http or a myriad of other source, and _has preconfigured ftp sites *all over the world*_. And then.... I tried listeing to mp3's over thenetwork with xmms over an smb mounted share, and it crawled. Sound drop outs everytime I tried to do anything, like copying files from cd or network. Oh, and even though CD's were automounted, I had trouble reading one...it had file names with spaces in it. Nah, refused to copy. Not sure if the spaces were _the_ reason, but a nearby freebsd box was able to read the same cd just fine. The CD in question was a Macromedia promo CD witch I got at a seminar a while ago (I just went for the freebies, didn't get much, apart from a lime frog (not a crunchy one :D)) Moving on, I tried to install the flash demo from the cd under wine, but the thing crashes after installshield finished extracting, and that's the end of that. I wonder how people manage to get WarCraft 3 going, what me not being able to even INSTALL a systemwise less demanding app than warcraft 3. Maybe I shoulda RTFM, but really, after the xmms test and the cd read fiasco, I wasn't going to try. So now... I'm installing Redhat 8. Will it be good enough to make me not overwrite it with FreeBSD once 5.0 comes out? Stay tuned. The verdict? Well to be fair, it was nice while it lasted, and for a basic internet client with a gnome desktop, it's okay, but It must be an embarrasment for someone to be outformed by windows 98. (it boots up faster, and I can play mp3's and surf/ copy files without dropping out). It craps junk all over disk which I don't need, starts up slow as, and really...at the end of the day, left my wanting for the simplicity and... Logicalness and sanity of a FreeBSD system. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBPe3gtOhz+6gkNePcEQImjwCgx55Lv3HQOpBwvuNqYdlo0peeFVQAn07r R7eBAd/+mVkcoUF4+sVb0t8G =5XW9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 4 3:28:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51B3B37B401 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 03:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from web14902.mail.yahoo.com (web14902.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.225.54]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6B4F843EBE for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 03:28:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from samdavidpikesley@yahoo.co.uk) Message-ID: <20021204112847.48356.qmail@web14902.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.202.214.45] by web14902.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 11:28:47 GMT Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:28:47 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Sam=20Pikesley?= Subject: Re: Companies awaiting 5.0 technology To: Nik Clayton , Johnson David Cc: Eric Anderson , advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <424B1D56-06EB-11D7-9371-000393863D48@freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was quite excited about 5.0 before. Having read this, I'm _really_ excited. Esp. about the encryption card support. The time has come to buy one of these http://openbrick.org/ --- Nik Clayton wrote: > On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 06:54 PM, Johnson > David wrote: > [ ... list of features in 5.0 elided ... ] > > > As an ex-salesman recovered enough to admit it, > features are not > > "cool", > > benefits are. The above is a list of features. > Only a geek would find > > it > > sexy. We need a list of benefits. A feature is a > "what is it", a > > benefit is a > > "what it does for you." > > Here's a something I've been knocking around for the > past few days. > I'm more than happy to renounce ownership of this if > someone else cares > to give it the care and polish it needs. > > -------- 8< cut here 8< -------- 8< cut here 8< > -------- > > FreeBSD 5.0 Benefits > > So, what are the real benefits of FreeBSD 5.0? > That's going to depend > on what sort of a FreeBSD user you are. > > Administrator > > As an administrator, you'll benefit from the > increased security > features, providing a much finer grain of control > over access to the > system. The use of PAM across all the system > utilities for > authentication makes it much easier to (for example) > ensure that > everything authenticates against your LDAP or RADIUS > servers. The > "jail" subsystem, which allows you to run multiple > distinct operating > system environments on one host has been extended, > and can now support > per-jail secure levels, an important security > feature, particularly for > organisations providing co-hosting and co-location > services. > > Improvements to the disk system, such as snapshots > and background fsck, > mean that FreeBSD's has a faster start up time, and > it's possible to > take consistent backups of filesystems without > ensuring that they're > quiescent first, improving reliability. FreeBSD's > software RAID > support has been extended with the addition of the > RAIDFrame framework, > allowing you to build more reliable systems. > > The revamped SMP support means that you'll now get > more bang per buck > on multi-CPU systems, giving more power from your > existing hardware > investment. And if your systems do a lot of work > with encrypted data > (e.g., webservers supporting HTTPS) then you'll > benefit from the new > support for hardware crypto cards, which offload > most of the encryption > work to a separate dedicated processor. > > The new infrastructure for system start up scripts > means its even > easier to integrate your own startup services in to > the system, and > ensure that they start in the correct order, even as > other services are > added or removed. > > There have been numerous improvements to FreeBSD's > networking stack and > device drivers, including support for "zero copy", > which removes a key > bottleneck in network throughput. > > Developer > > If you use FreeBSD as your development platform then > you will benefit > from a host of new changes. > > C and C++ programmers will benefit from the updates > to the gcc compiler > and gdb debugger which ship with FreeBSD. These are > now based on gcc > 3.2.1 and gdb 5.2.1, incorporating updates and bug > fixes from the GNU > project. > > Perl programmers will benefit from the removal of > Perl from the base > FreeBSD system. Paradoxically this move makes it > easier to install and > maintain multiple versions of Perl, or Perl for > different > architectures, without being concerned that you > might be inadvertently > relying on the version of Perl shipped with FreeBSD. > Various versions > of the Perl interpreter are available in the FreeBSD > ports system. > > XXX -- need more developer benefits > > User > > As an end user the most visible change is probably > the increased > hardware support. It's now even more likely that > your USB devices will > work with FreeBSD out of the box, including PDAs > that use USB for data > synchronisation, such as the Handspring Visor. > Firewire devices are > now supported, as are Bluetooth, opening up a range > of third party > storage and networking products. > > If you're running FreeBSD on a laptop then the > Cardbus support is going > to be useful, as are the continued enhancements to > the ACPI system, > making it much more likely that FreeBSD will be able > to respond > appropriately when the CPU speed drops, or you > decide to suspend the > system. > > If multimedia is important to you then the work > that's gone in to > support Direct Rendering Infrastructure (DRI) will > doubtless be useful, > as are the new audio drivers. And companies like > nVidia are now > realising the benefits of providing native FreeBSD > drivers for their > hardware. > > FreeBSD continues to support the KDE and GNOME > environments, as well as > a huge range of other window managers and supporting > tools, so you'll > benefit from all the work that's carried out by > those groups. > > If you run any applications that depend on the Linux > compatability > layer then you'll be pleased to know that the layer > (and the > emulators/linux_base port that uses it) have been > upgraded, and now > correspond with those included with Red Hat Linux > 7.1. > > XXX -- needs a snappy ending > > -------- 8< cut here 8< -------- 8< cut here 8< > -------- > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of > the message ===== FreeBSD: It Just Works __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 4 5:16:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFEAA37B401 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:16:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCFBD43EAF for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:16:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b141.otenet.gr [212.205.244.149]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gB4DFEff018556; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 15:15:57 +0200 (EET) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id gB4DFAOD005268; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 15:15:10 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id gB4DF70w005267; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 15:15:07 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 15:15:07 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Haikal Saadh Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: A FreeBSD User Reviews Mandrake. Let the flames flow. Message-ID: <20021204131506.GB4377@gothmog.gr> References: <000001c29b84$9a400370$9802a8c0@warhawk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000001c29b84$9a400370$9802a8c0@warhawk> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Note: I don't like Mandrake Linux, but the original post isn't quite objective about the relative advantages and/or disadvantages that Mandrake might have over FreeBSD, and I hate seeing people bitch about something just for the sake of bitching... This makes FreeBSD look bad too :-( On 2002-12-04 21:02, Haikal Saadh wrote: > I want a flavour of unix simply because, well, to bullet it out, > O I hate windows 9x/ME, and my laptop's really too underpowered for > 2k or xp. Make note here. "Undrepowered laptop" means that this laptop has too many things to do and too little power to actually go on doing them. > Base Requirements: > O No Bullshit setup/configuration. This is too vague to be of any use to someone who's trying to promote either Linux or BSD. > O Must work with my digital camera. Later on, you described that this worked fine. Linux seems OK here :-] > O Must be able to get on the web with a Mozilla-type browser. Mozilla is a resource pig. If your laptop cannot run Windows 95 or similar without crawling to its knees, I seriously doubt it will be able to run anything Mozilla-like without being slow. > O Must run evolution. Sorry, no other mailer will do. Sorry this mailer is not slim, small, powerful and less of a resource hungry beast than most of them GUI mailers out there. > O Must be able to get on ICQ,YM,MSN, and IRC. I only use the last of these, and even then I have noticed how difficult it is to be on IRC and do *real* work. You will almost certainly find programs that let you use all of them though; both on Linux and BSD. > O Must be able to do stuff while listening to mp3's off an smb > share. It's an overworked laptop. Don't expect it to be a fast performer if you load X11, KDE or Gnome, Mozilla, three of four chat clients, and a host of other tools and *then* start playing mp3 audio :-/ > Super Extended Requirements > O Must be able to run Adobe Illustrator and Macromedia flash (or > equivalent) (dream) Do these even run at all under Windows emulation? If you really need these, and a few other MS-based tools that you mentioned, and you absolutely cannot do your work without them... is BSD or Linux the best choise for you? I'm not sure. > Package installation was a royal pain, as it was slow as, and in > grand linux fashion, insisted on crapping shit all over my harddrive. > The final install weighed in at around 2.5 gig, as the installer did > give me gnome and kde, and I did not make any efforts to stop it. I haven't installed Mandrake Linux lately, but are you sure you had to install both KDE and Gnome? As a matter of fact, do you really *need* X11 at all? I don't install anything X11-related to machines that are relatively slow or have limited resources. > The installer itself, I found too colourful for my tastes...as if it > was aimed at 7 year olds or something. Taste is really something that no installer can satisfy for *all* the possible users of today and ever after. The fact that you didn't like the looks of the Mandrake installer should be considered in the same context as something that you mentioned later: > FreeBSD's /stand/sysinstall, like the installer, may not be > pretty, but it works. Everytime. And you have no other tools to > confuse you either. If the looks of the installer don't matter, why are you bitching about the looks of Mandrake's installer? > The first few hours... > Were spent in frustration because my network card was not being > detected. After much frustration at google and google groups not > being able to answer my question, I finally set the bios setting to > use 16-bit cardbus, and it worked. You need to rebuild a kernel with support for 32-bit PCMCIA cards for this to work. I remember this from a while ago that I was reading the PCMCIA-HOWTO. You can find the PCMCIA-HOWTO at: http://pcmcia-cs.sourceforge.net/ftp/doc/PCMCIA-HOWTO.html The relevant part reads: Include 32-bit (CardBus) card support? This option must be selected if you wish to use 32-bit CardBus cards. It is not required for CardBus bridge support, if you only plan to use 16-bit PC Cards. Sorry, but not looking at the existing documentation is not a very good excuse for complaining in a "this sucks" manner. > No mention of this setting having to do anything was mention on the > web. (And google is the web as far as I'm concerned). Google is not ``the web'' but, putting this aside, you shouldn't have started on the web; the documentation of your distribution is a better place to look for hints about problems. The HOWTOs and mini-HOWTOs of Linux are installed as part of the system install by most of the Linux distributions I know of. These documents are an invaluable resource of information both for Linux users and users of other UNIX-like operating systems. Do not *ever* underestimate the number of mistakes that you can avoid by reading the documentation of your system :-) > Right, anyhow, once I got the network card fired up, it didn't do > anything. Didn't try to get a dhcp lease or anything. Why should it? You hadn't configured it to do so. > I tried listeing to mp3's over thenetwork with xmms over an smb > mounted share, and it crawled. Sound drop outs everytime I tried to > do anything, like copying files from cd or network. You have a laptop system that is twice as fast as my old Pentium 133 machine. I could play mp3 audio on *that* machine, and have a kernel compile running in the background even in the days of Linux-1.2.13. There's nothing wrong with Linux or its applications. There *is* something wrong with the way you work though. You're constantly complaining why the fancy, picturesque, resource eating, GUI programs that you insist running have eaten all your resources and brought your machine to its knees. That's not Linux's fault, sorry. There are mp3 players out there that don't need X11 to run. I have used mpg123 for a while, and I quite liked it. audio/amp works fine too. Even audio/mp3blaster is better than loading X11 just to listen to a song! > Oh, and even though CD's were automounted, I had trouble reading > one...it had file names with spaces in it. Nah, refused to copy. You have forgotten to write "how" you tried to do the copying and what the error messages (if you got any) were. Are you sure it's not some mistake you made in your haste to copy the files? > Moving on, I tried to install the flash demo from the cd under wine, > but the thing crashes after installshield finished extracting, and > that's the end of that. Flash isn't exactly my idea of a program for resource limited computers either. But I should stop saying that old, same story about small computers and programs that are big, slow, demanding monsters. It's going to get boring in a while. > Maybe I shoulda RTFM, but really, after the xmms test and the cd > read fiasco, I wasn't going to try. Yes, you should. Always start at the manuals. That's why they are written. By not reading any of them, not only do you put yourself in a position where you can make many mistakes of varying significance (mistakes that can cause a lot of trouble and make you waste time and efforts), but you also offend the people who are trying to write those documentation texts by your acts. It is just like saying to them: "I don't care about the time you spent to write the documentation. It's all crap that I won't ever spend a minute reading, and you can write all you want. I don't care about it." > So now... > I'm installing Redhat 8. Will it be good enough to make me not > overwrite it with FreeBSD once 5.0 comes out? Stay tuned. What's wrong with FreeBSD 4.X then? Why are you trying to use Linux? Is FreeBSD 4.7-RELEASE or 4.7-STABLE inadequate for your needs? If yes, how? - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 4 5:23:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AAF137B401 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from web40414.mail.yahoo.com (web40414.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.111]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 22E4A43ECF for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:23:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from catlord17@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20021204132303.73234.qmail@web40414.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.78.240.175] by web40414.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 05:23:03 PST Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:23:03 -0800 (PST) From: RexFelis Subject: Re: A FreeBSD User Reviews Mandrake. Let the flames flow. To: advocacy@freeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20021204131506.GB4377@gothmog.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Your "review" comes across sounding at best biased. You yourself made no effort to configure the system to fit your needs, even though the entire configuration (shy of FLASH and crap like that) could have been done during the install. As I use both Mandrake and FreeBSD, I agree with your conclusion that FBSD is a better OS, but you seem to simply want a flame fest. Why not simply forego Linux and use FBSD on the laptop to start with? It's not like 4.x is going to be useless after 5.x comes out, and it's not like you can't upgrade later. Shannon --- Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > * Note: I don't like Mandrake Linux, but the > original post isn't quite > objective about the relative advantages and/or > disadvantages that > Mandrake might have over FreeBSD, and I hate > seeing people bitch about > something just for the sake of bitching... > This makes FreeBSD look > bad too :-( > > On 2002-12-04 21:02, Haikal Saadh > wrote: > > I want a flavour of unix simply because, > well, to bullet it out, > > O I hate windows 9x/ME, and my laptop's > really too underpowered for > > 2k or xp. > > Make note here. "Undrepowered laptop" means > that this laptop has too > many things to do and too little power to > actually go on doing them. > > > Base Requirements: > > O No Bullshit setup/configuration. > > This is too vague to be of any use to someone > who's trying to promote > either Linux or BSD. > > > O Must work with my digital camera. > > Later on, you described that this worked fine. > Linux seems OK here :-] > > > O Must be able to get on the web with a > Mozilla-type browser. > > Mozilla is a resource pig. If your laptop > cannot run Windows 95 or > similar without crawling to its knees, I > seriously doubt it will be > able to run anything Mozilla-like without being > slow. > > > O Must run evolution. Sorry, no other mailer > will do. > > Sorry this mailer is not slim, small, powerful > and less of a resource > hungry beast than most of them GUI mailers out > there. > > > O Must be able to get on ICQ,YM,MSN, and IRC. > > I only use the last of these, and even then I > have noticed how > difficult it is to be on IRC and do *real* > work. You will almost > certainly find programs that let you use all of > them though; both on > Linux and BSD. > > > O Must be able to do stuff while listening to > mp3's off an smb > > share. > > It's an overworked laptop. Don't expect it to > be a fast performer if > you load X11, KDE or Gnome, Mozilla, three of > four chat clients, and a > host of other tools and *then* start playing > mp3 audio :-/ > > > Super Extended Requirements > > O Must be able to run Adobe Illustrator and > Macromedia flash (or > > equivalent) (dream) > > Do these even run at all under Windows > emulation? If you really need > these, and a few other MS-based tools that you > mentioned, and you > absolutely cannot do your work without them... > is BSD or Linux the > best choise for you? I'm not sure. > > > Package installation was a royal pain, as it > was slow as, and in > > grand linux fashion, insisted on crapping > shit all over my harddrive. > > The final install weighed in at around 2.5 > gig, as the installer did > > give me gnome and kde, and I did not make any > efforts to stop it. > > I haven't installed Mandrake Linux lately, but > are you sure you had to > install both KDE and Gnome? As a matter of > fact, do you really *need* > X11 at all? I don't install anything > X11-related to machines that are > relatively slow or have limited resources. > > > The installer itself, I found too colourful > for my tastes...as if it > > was aimed at 7 year olds or something. > > Taste is really something that no installer can > satisfy for *all* the > possible users of today and ever after. The > fact that you didn't like > the looks of the Mandrake installer should be > considered in the same > context as something that you mentioned later: > > > FreeBSD's /stand/sysinstall, like the > installer, may not be > > pretty, but it works. Everytime. And you > have no other tools to > > confuse you either. > > If the looks of the installer don't matter, why > are you bitching about > the looks of Mandrake's installer? > > > The first few hours... > > Were spent in frustration because my network > card was not being > > detected. After much frustration at google > and google groups not > > being able to answer my question, I finally > set the bios setting to > > use 16-bit cardbus, and it worked. > > You need to rebuild a kernel with support for > 32-bit PCMCIA cards for > this to work. I remember this from a while ago > that I was reading the > PCMCIA-HOWTO. You can find the PCMCIA-HOWTO > at: > http://pcmcia-cs.sourceforge.net/ftp/doc/PCMCIA-HOWTO.html > > The relevant part reads: > > Include 32-bit (CardBus) card support? > > This option must be selected if you wish to > use 32-bit CardBus > cards. It is not required for CardBus bridge > support, if you > only plan to use 16-bit PC Cards. > > Sorry, but not looking at the existing > documentation is not a very > good excuse for complaining in a "this sucks" > manner. > > > No mention of this setting having to do > anything was mention on the > > web. (And google is the web as far as I'm > concerned). > > Google is not ``the web'' but, putting this > aside, you shouldn't have > started on the web; the documentation of your > distribution is a better > place to look for hints about problems. The > HOWTOs and mini-HOWTOs of > Linux are installed as part of the system > install by most of the Linux > distributions I know of. These documents are > an invaluable resource > of information both for Linux users and users > of other UNIX-like > operating systems. Do not *ever* underestimate > the number of mistakes > that you can avoid by reading the documentation > of your system :-) > > > Right, anyhow, once I got the network card > fired up, it didn't do > > anything. Didn't try to get a dhcp lease or > anything. > > Why should it? You hadn't configured it to do > so. > > > I tried listeing to mp3's over thenetwork > with xmms over an smb > > mounted share, and it crawled. Sound drop > outs everytime I tried to > > do anything, like copying files from cd or > network. > > You have a laptop system that is twice as fast > as my old Pentium 133 > machine. I could play mp3 audio on *that* > machine, and have a kernel > compile running in the background even in the > days of Linux-1.2.13. > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 4 5:56:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4409B37B401 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:56:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx8.mail.ru (mx8.mail.ru [194.67.57.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2AFE43ED4 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:56:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam_csongor@mail.ru) Received: from [193.225.150.134] (helo=soulfly.sth.sze.hu) by mx8.mail.ru with smtp (Exim SMTP.8) id 18Ja0a-00092O-00 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 16:56:13 +0300 Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:55:29 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-2?B?wWThbQ==?= Csongor To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A FreeBSD User Reviews Mandrake. Let the flames flow. Message-Id: <20021204145529.6d753aca.adam_csongor@mail.ru> In-Reply-To: <20021204131506.GB4377@gothmog.gr> References: <000001c29b84$9a400370$9802a8c0@warhawk> <20021204131506.GB4377@gothmog.gr> Organization: SZE-JGK X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i586-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 15:15:07 +0200 Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > O Must be able to do stuff while listening to mp3's off an smb > > share. This is rather a question of your network conditions then your operating system... > > Package installation was a royal pain, as it was slow as, and in > > grand linux fashion, insisted on crapping shit all over my > > harddrive. The final install weighed in at around 2.5 gig, as the > > installer did give me gnome and kde, and I did not make any efforts > > to stop it. > > I haven't installed Mandrake Linux lately, but are you sure you had to > install both KDE and Gnome? With one easy mouse click you can get rid of the whole GNOME, KDE or both. I have a full featured mdk installation (OpenOffice, Mozilla, GNOME, + many additional packages in 1,1Gig... It is about the same size with fbsd with the same software installed > What's wrong with FreeBSD 4.X then? Why are you trying to use Linux? > Is FreeBSD 4.7-RELEASE or 4.7-STABLE inadequate for your needs? If > yes, how? I stick with Mdk for its ease of configuration. You urpmi apache e.g., move your files to /var/www/ type service apache start and voila... Of course later it is time to check out the conf files... On the other hand I respect Fbsd very much, used it from 4.2 till 4.6 paralel to Linux and am excitingly awaiting 5.0... I'll surely give it a try... Greetings Csongor ------------------------------------------------------------ Csongor Adam, Hungary E mail: adam_csongor@seznam.cz UIN 132941052 Student of Szechenyi Istvan University, Gyor Linux Mandrake 9.0 Registered Linux user #292449 ------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 4 5:58:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4674F37B401 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:58:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail011.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail011.syd.optusnet.com.au [210.49.20.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C587043E88 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:58:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from haikal@freeshell.org) Received: from warhawk (c17165.kelvn1.qld.optusnet.com.au [210.49.49.25]) by mail011.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id gB4DwUN32545; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 00:58:30 +1100 From: "Haikal Saadh" To: "'Giorgos Keramidas'" Cc: Subject: RE: A FreeBSD User Reviews Mandrake. Let the flames flow. Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:58:22 +1000 Message-ID: <000301c29b9d$35adab60$9802a8c0@warhawk> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <20021204131506.GB4377@gothmog.gr> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > * Note: I don't like Mandrake Linux, but the original post isn't > quite objective about the relative advantages and/or disadvantages > that > Mandrake might have over FreeBSD, and I hate seeing people bitch > about something just for the sake of bitching... This makes > FreeBSD look bad too :-( Sorry if I sounded bitchy. My intention was not to promote one over the other. > On 2002-12-04 21:02, Haikal Saadh wrote: > > I want a flavour of unix simply because, well, to bullet it out, > > O I hate windows 9x/ME, and my laptop's really too underpowered > > for 2k or xp. > > Make note here. "Undrepowered laptop" means that this laptop has > too many things to do and too little power to actually go on doing > them. > Fair enough, but win98 was able play mp3's and do some other work (surf, mail, graphics) both at the same time, and that was one of the basis for my comparision. I should have mentioned that. > > Base Requirements: > > O No Bullshit setup/configuration. > > This is too vague to be of any use to someone who's trying to > promote either Linux or BSD. Okay, roughly speaking, what I mean is time spent to get everything working. Also, how easy it is to find and manipulate the config files/tools involved. > > > O Must work with my digital camera. > > Later on, you described that this worked fine. Linux seems > OK here :-] > Yes! It was practically one of the highlights of the whole system. Made my day. I wonder if it works on freebsd, but my freebsd server does not have USB so I have no basis for comparision. > > O Must be able to get on the web with a Mozilla-type browser. > > Mozilla is a resource pig. If your laptop cannot run Windows 95 or > similar without crawling to its knees, I seriously doubt it will be > able to run anything Mozilla-like without being slow. I did say mozilla-type. Again, poor choice of words on my behalf. I actually was using galeon. > > > O Must run evolution. Sorry, no other mailer will do. > > Sorry this mailer is not slim, small, powerful and less of a > resource hungry beast than most of them GUI mailers out there. Granted. > > > O Must be able to get on ICQ,YM,MSN, and IRC. > > I only use the last of these, and even then I have noticed how > difficult it is to be on IRC and do *real* work. You will almost > certainly find programs that let you use all of them though; both > on Linux and BSD. > Yeah. I don't spend much time on IRC, but a lot of my friends are on MSN. I prefer a unified client for all these. I use trillian on my windows desktop, and used Gabber under Mandrake. I have not until now, extensively used freebsd as a desktop, except for a brief circa evolution 1.0.7 when I used it for mail. > > O Must be able to do stuff while listening to mp3's off an smb > > share. > > It's an overworked laptop. Don't expect it to be a fast performer > if you load X11, KDE or Gnome, Mozilla, three of four chat clients, > and a host of other tools and *then* start playing mp3 audio :-/ > Yes, but win98 was able to handle winamp, opera (I was running it before mozilla or phoenix came along) and one other app (office, or flash, usually) > > Super Extended Requirements > > O Must be able to run Adobe Illustrator and Macromedia flash (or > > equivalent) (dream) > > Do these even run at all under Windows emulation? If you really > need these, and a few other MS-based tools that you mentioned, and > you > absolutely cannot do your work without them... is BSD or Linux the > best choise for you? I'm not sure. No they didn't. I didn't try illustrator. The flash installer went as far as unpacking before crashing. I think I mentioned that further down. > > > Package installation was a royal pain, as it was slow as, and in > > grand linux fashion, insisted on crapping shit all over my > harddrive. > > The final install weighed in at around 2.5 gig, as the installer > > did give me gnome and kde, and I did not make any efforts to stop > > it. > > I haven't installed Mandrake Linux lately, but are you sure you had > to install both KDE and Gnome? As a matter of fact, do you really > *need* X11 at all? I don't install anything X11-related to > machines that are relatively slow or have limited resources. > I installed KDE in case I didn't like gnome. I understand that X11 is resource heavy, but I need a GUI desktop. Cannot find a technical reason to justify that need. It's just the way I am. Servers, otoh, where I don't have to spend much time in, I prefer the console. > > The installer itself, I found too colourful for my tastes...as if > > it was aimed at 7 year olds or something. > > Taste is really something that no installer can satisfy for *all* > the possible users of today and ever after. The fact that you > didn't like the looks of the Mandrake installer should be > considered in the same context as something that you mentioned > later: > > > FreeBSD's /stand/sysinstall, like the installer, may not be > > pretty, but it works. Everytime. And you have no other tools > to > > confuse you either. > > If the looks of the installer don't matter, why are you bitching > about the looks of Mandrake's installer? > I did not intend to bitch about it, but to point of a matter of preference. > > The first few hours... > > Were spent in frustration because my network card was not being > > detected. After much frustration at google and google groups not > > being able to answer my question, I finally set the bios setting > > to use 16-bit cardbus, and it worked. > > You need to rebuild a kernel with support for 32-bit PCMCIA cards > for this to work. I remember this from a while ago that I was > reading the PCMCIA-HOWTO. You can find the PCMCIA-HOWTO at: > http://pcmcia-cs.sourceforge.net/ftp/doc/PCMCIA-HOWTO.html > > The relevant part reads: > > Include 32-bit (CardBus) card support? > > This option must be selected if you wish to use 32-bit CardBus > cards. It is not required for CardBus bridge support, if you > only plan to use 16-bit PC Cards. > > Sorry, but not looking at the existing documentation is not a very > good excuse for complaining in a "this sucks" manner. > Point conceded, but from the point of view of a casual user, would you bother? > > No mention of this setting having to do anything was mention on > > the web. (And google is the web as far as I'm concerned). > > Google is not ``the web'' but, putting this aside, you shouldn't > have started on the web; the documentation of your distribution is > a better place to look for hints about problems. The HOWTOs and > mini-HOWTOs of Linux are installed as part of the system install by > most of the Linux distributions I know of. These documents are an > invaluable resource of information both for Linux users and users > of other UNIX-like > operating systems. Do not *ever* underestimate the number of > mistakes that you can avoid by reading the documentation of your > system :-) > Correct. But the basis for my judgement was, with freebsd, you can just google the freebsd handbook, and if that give you an answer, google groups and the -questions archives would. This is a point which I forgot to make. > > Right, anyhow, once I got the network card fired up, it didn't do > > anything. Didn't try to get a dhcp lease or anything. > > Why should it? You hadn't configured it to do so. Yes, but I was expecting it to at least try and get a dhcp lease. I mean, the thing auto mounts cdroms, so why not try to auto-configure a pcmcia network card? A hot swappable one at that... > > > I tried listeing to mp3's over thenetwork with xmms over an smb > > mounted share, and it crawled. Sound drop outs everytime I tried > > to do anything, like copying files from cd or network. > > You have a laptop system that is twice as fast as my old Pentium > 133 machine. I could play mp3 audio on *that* machine, and have a > kernel compile running in the background even in the days of > Linux-1.2.13. There's nothing wrong with Linux or its applications. > There *is* > something wrong with the way you work though. You're constantly > complaining why the fancy, picturesque, resource eating, GUI > programs that you insist running have eaten all your resources and > brought your machine to its knees. That's not Linux's fault, > sorry. > > There are mp3 players out there that don't need X11 to run. I have > used mpg123 for a while, and I quite liked it. audio/amp works > fine too. Even audio/mp3blaster is better than loading X11 just to > listen to a song! > Correct. But I was trying to recreate the setup I had on windows earlier, though in hindsight, I should have made some concessions. > > Oh, and even though CD's were automounted, I had trouble reading > > one...it had file names with spaces in it. Nah, refused to copy. > > You have forgotten to write "how" you tried to do the copying and > what the error messages (if you got any) were. Are you sure it's > not some mistake you made in your haste to copy the files? Is there more to copying files than cd /mnt/cdrom/dir cp whateever ~ ? Freebsd was able to copy that file. The only difference was that I did have manually mount /cdrom. I was even using tcsh on linux. > > > Moving on, I tried to install the flash demo from the cd under > > wine, but the thing crashes after installshield finished > > extracting, and that's the end of that. > > Flash isn't exactly my idea of a program for resource limited > computers > either. But I should stop saying that old, same story about small > computers and programs that are big, slow, demanding monsters. > It's going to get boring in a while. > And I should stop saying that it worked under windows. > > Maybe I shoulda RTFM, but really, after the xmms test and the cd > > read fiasco, I wasn't going to try. > > Yes, you should. Always start at the manuals. That's why they are > written. By not reading any of them, not only do you put yourself > in a position where you can make many mistakes of varying > significance (mistakes that can cause a lot of trouble and make you > waste time and efforts), but you also offend the people who are > trying to write those documentation texts by your acts. It is just > like saying to them: "I don't care about the time you spent to > write the documentation. It's all crap that I won't ever spend a > minute reading, and you can write all you want. I don't care about > it." > > > So now... > > I'm installing Redhat 8. Will it be good enough to make me not > > overwrite it with FreeBSD once 5.0 comes out? Stay tuned. > > What's wrong with FreeBSD 4.X then? Why are you trying to use > Linux? Is FreeBSD 4.7-RELEASE or 4.7-STABLE inadequate for your > needs? If yes, how? > Nothing's wrong with FreeBSD. I was just curious to see that all the hype was about, and as the opportunity presented itself, I took it. Unless redhat impresses me greatly ( which is highly unlikely atm), I will probably be nuking it and putting some version of freebsd on it. At the moment, the only version I have on CD is 4.5, though I have a machine running 4-stable as of a month ago. Im holding out till 5.0 comes out because I am mildly reluctant to do a move from 4-stable to 5. All the docco I have seen recommends a fresh install for 5.0, which is why I am holding out. Also I had to see for myself how far linux has come since way back then. Nothing wrong with that, I think. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBPe4J/uhz+6gkNePcEQLMyACgqYd9PamjCs7ugYLNiFmccjuoljwAoMEe G+30tmEQpLX//sqF57nfPy/o =Jfqt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 4 6:16:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50EB37B401 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:16:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from web11802.mail.yahoo.com (web11802.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 55FB043ED4 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:16:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20021204141617.35342.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.96.5] by web11802.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 06:16:17 PST Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:16:17 -0800 (PST) From: Haikal Saadh Subject: Re: A FreeBSD User Reviews Mandrake. Let the flames flow. To: RexFelis , advocacy@freeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20021204132303.73234.qmail@web40414.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --- RexFelis wrote: > Your "review" comes across sounding at best > biased. You yourself made no effort to > configure the system to fit your needs, even > though the entire configuration (shy of FLASH and > crap like that) could have been done during the > install. Apart from the cardbus stuff, was there much more to configure? I probably could have spent more time tweaking knobs here and there, but really, consider this: I have really been trying to figure out, on and off why no linux would detect my ethernet card on and off for months. Everyone else seems to have gotten the card to work out of the box, and nowhere was any mention made, either on linux or freebsd land, of the card not working unless kernel recompiled, or set to cardbus/16. It was only through twiddling every knob in BIOS did I find this. Not to mention the time I spent looking for where to point the package tool to get software off the 'net instead of cd. Compare this to sysinstall, which has this preconfigured, with mirror lists easily available in the handbook. And of course, this installation was never meant to be permanent. > > As I use both Mandrake and FreeBSD, I agree with > your conclusion that FBSD is a better OS, but you > seem to simply want a flame fest. > Not my intention, I assure. I think we've seen enough of them here for a while. > Why not simply forego Linux and use FBSD on the > laptop to start with? It's not like 4.x is going > to be useless after 5.x comes out, and it's not > like you can't upgrade later. > This point is addressed in my reply to Giorgios. In short, I wanted to see what it was like. > Shannon > > > --- Giorgos Keramidas > wrote: > > * Note: I don't like Mandrake Linux, but the > > original post isn't quite > > objective about the relative advantages and/or > > disadvantages that > > Mandrake might have over FreeBSD, and I hate > > seeing people bitch about > > something just for the sake of bitching... > > This makes FreeBSD look > > bad too :-( > > > > On 2002-12-04 21:02, Haikal Saadh > > wrote: > > > I want a flavour of unix simply because, > > well, to bullet it out, > > > O I hate windows 9x/ME, and my laptop's > > really too underpowered for > > > 2k or xp. > > > > Make note here. "Undrepowered laptop" means > > that this laptop has too > > many things to do and too little power to > > actually go on doing them. > > > > > Base Requirements: > > > O No Bullshit setup/configuration. > > > > This is too vague to be of any use to someone > > who's trying to promote > > either Linux or BSD. > > > > > O Must work with my digital camera. > > > > Later on, you described that this worked fine. > > Linux seems OK here :-] > > > > > O Must be able to get on the web with a > > Mozilla-type browser. > > > > Mozilla is a resource pig. If your laptop > > cannot run Windows 95 or > > similar without crawling to its knees, I > > seriously doubt it will be > > able to run anything Mozilla-like without being > > slow. > > > > > O Must run evolution. Sorry, no other mailer > > will do. > > > > Sorry this mailer is not slim, small, powerful > > and less of a resource > > hungry beast than most of them GUI mailers out > > there. > > > > > O Must be able to get on ICQ,YM,MSN, and IRC. > > > > I only use the last of these, and even then I > > have noticed how > > difficult it is to be on IRC and do *real* > > work. You will almost > > certainly find programs that let you use all of > > them though; both on > > Linux and BSD. > > > > > O Must be able to do stuff while listening to > > mp3's off an smb > > > share. > > > > It's an overworked laptop. Don't expect it to > > be a fast performer if > > you load X11, KDE or Gnome, Mozilla, three of > > four chat clients, and a > > host of other tools and *then* start playing > > mp3 audio :-/ > > > > > Super Extended Requirements > > > O Must be able to run Adobe Illustrator and > > Macromedia flash (or > > > equivalent) (dream) > > > > Do these even run at all under Windows > > emulation? If you really need > > these, and a few other MS-based tools that you > > mentioned, and you > > absolutely cannot do your work without them... > > is BSD or Linux the > > best choise for you? I'm not sure. > > > > > Package installation was a royal pain, as it > > was slow as, and in > > > grand linux fashion, insisted on crapping > > shit all over my harddrive. > > > The final install weighed in at around 2.5 > > gig, as the installer did > > > give me gnome and kde, and I did not make any > > efforts to stop it. > > > > I haven't installed Mandrake Linux lately, but > > are you sure you had to > > install both KDE and Gnome? As a matter of > > fact, do you really *need* > > X11 at all? I don't install anything > > X11-related to machines that are > > relatively slow or have limited resources. > > > > > The installer itself, I found too colourful > > for my tastes...as if it > > > was aimed at 7 year olds or something. > > > > Taste is really something that no installer can > > satisfy for *all* the > > possible users of today and ever after. The > > fact that you didn't like > > the looks of the Mandrake installer should be > > considered in the same > > context as something that you mentioned later: > > > > > FreeBSD's /stand/sysinstall, like the > > installer, may not be > > > pretty, but it works. Everytime. And you > > have no other tools to > > > confuse you either. > > > > If the looks of the installer don't matter, why > > are you bitching about > > the looks of Mandrake's installer? > > > > > The first few hours... > > > Were spent in frustration because my network > > card was not being > > > detected. After much frustration at google > > and google groups not > > > being able to answer my question, I finally > > set the bios setting to > > > use 16-bit cardbus, and it worked. > > > > You need to rebuild a kernel with support for > > 32-bit PCMCIA cards for > > this to work. I remember this from a while ago > > that I was reading the > > PCMCIA-HOWTO. You can find the PCMCIA-HOWTO > > at: > > > http://pcmcia-cs.sourceforge.net/ftp/doc/PCMCIA-HOWTO.html > > > > The relevant part reads: > > > > Include 32-bit (CardBus) card support? > > > > This option must be selected if you wish to > > use 32-bit CardBus > > cards. It is not required for CardBus bridge > > support, if you > > only plan to use 16-bit PC Cards. > > > > Sorry, but not looking at the existing > > documentation is not a very > > good excuse for complaining in a "this sucks" > > manner. > > > > > No mention of this setting having to do > > anything was mention on the > > > web. (And google is the web as far as I'm > > concerned). > > > > Google is not ``the web'' but, putting this > > aside, you shouldn't have > > started on the web; the documentation of your > > distribution is a better > > place to look for hints about problems. The > > HOWTOs and mini-HOWTOs of > > Linux are installed as part of the system > > install by most of the Linux > > distributions I know of. These documents are > > an invaluable resource > > of information both for Linux users and users > > of other UNIX-like > > operating systems. Do not *ever* underestimate > > the number of mistakes > > that you can avoid by reading the documentation > > of your system :-) > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 4 6:24:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8275937B401 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:24:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from web11803.mail.yahoo.com (web11803.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.157]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9E9C643EC2 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:24:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20021204142442.42100.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.96.5] by web11803.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 06:24:42 PST Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:24:42 -0800 (PST) From: Haikal Saadh Subject: Re: A FreeBSD User Reviews Mandrake. Let the flames flow. To: "Ádám" Csongor , advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20021204145529.6d753aca.adam_csongor@mail.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --- Ádám Csongor wrote: > > On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 15:15:07 +0200 > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > > O Must be able to do stuff while listening to mp3's off an smb > > > share. > This is rather a question of your network conditions then your > operating > system... > Good point. I should try this under windows and see what happens, but on a 5 host network with not much traffic.... > > > > Package installation was a royal pain, as it was slow as, and > in > > > grand linux fashion, insisted on crapping shit all over my > > > harddrive. The final install weighed in at around 2.5 gig, as > the > > > installer did give me gnome and kde, and I did not make any > efforts > > > to stop it. > > > > I haven't installed Mandrake Linux lately, but are you sure you > had to > > install both KDE and Gnome? > > With one easy mouse click you can get rid of the whole GNOME, KDE > or > both. I have a full featured mdk installation (OpenOffice, Mozilla, > GNOME, + many additional packages in 1,1Gig... It is about the same > size > with fbsd with the same software installed > True, I picked the default as my friends recommended this way because of the fact that _everything_ seems to an package in linux, and i did not want to be left with a system without ifconfig or passwd or something like that. Yeah it's paranoid, I know. > > > What's wrong with FreeBSD 4.X then? Why are you trying to use > Linux? > > Is FreeBSD 4.7-RELEASE or 4.7-STABLE inadequate for your needs? > If > > yes, how? > I stick with Mdk for its ease of configuration. You urpmi apache > e.g., > move your files to /var/www/ > type service apache start and voila... Of course later it is time > to > check out the conf files... On the other hand I respect Fbsd very > much, > used it from 4.2 till 4.6 paralel to Linux and am excitingly > awaiting > 5.0... I'll surely give it a try... > In linux I still hate how everything is shoved in /etc/, instead of /etc/ for OS-stuff and /usr/local/etc/ for package-related stuff. I also like BSD-style rc system, especially rc.conf and rc.d. Of course, these are quite out of the way on a desktop machine. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 4 6:26:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B83837B401 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:26:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from web11808.mail.yahoo.com (web11808.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 99E8A43EA9 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:26:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20021204142635.38732.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.96.5] by web11808.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 06:26:35 PST Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:26:35 -0800 (PST) From: Haikal Saadh Subject: Re: A FreeBSD User Reviews Mandrake. Let the flames flow. To: RexFelis , advocacy@freeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <20021204132303.73234.qmail@web40414.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > As I use both Mandrake and FreeBSD, I agree with > your conclusion that FBSD is a better OS, but you > seem to simply want a flame fest. > PS. The subject was a joke. I did not intend for anyone to take it this seriously. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 4 6:41:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BC5137B401 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:41:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from web14912.mail.yahoo.com (web14912.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.225.248]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5A24643E9C for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:41:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from samdavidpikesley@yahoo.co.uk) Message-ID: <20021204144125.17297.qmail@web14912.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.202.214.45] by web14912.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 14:41:25 GMT Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:41:25 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Sam=20Pikesley?= Subject: A banana user reviews pineapples To: advocacy@freeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I found that some things were better and some were worse. I didn't bother to read any of the documentation that came with either of them. I tried to use a tool designed for grapefruits on the pineapple, but it didn't work. I'm really waiting for the release of pineapple2.0 so I can ignore the documentation for that too... ;) ===== FreeBSD: It Just Works __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 4 9:29:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4880537B401 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:29:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from hardtime.linuxman.net (hardtime.linuxman.net [66.147.26.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD0F043E88 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:29:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@over-yonder.net) Received: from mortis.over-yonder.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hardtime.linuxman.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id gB4Ioa803007; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:50:37 -0600 Received: by mortis.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 29CCC1F33; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:28:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:28:41 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Haikal Saadh , advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: A FreeBSD User Reviews Mandrake. Let the flames flow. Message-ID: <20021204172841.GA1113@over-yonder.net> References: <000001c29b84$9a400370$9802a8c0@warhawk> <20021204131506.GB4377@gothmog.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20021204131506.GB4377@gothmog.gr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i-fullermd.1 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 03:15:07PM +0200 I heard the voice of Giorgos Keramidas, and lo! it spake thus: > > If the looks of the installer don't matter, why are you bitching about > the looks of Mandrake's installer? Well, speaking for myself, an overly-plain is something I notice. An overly-gaudy gets really annoying. It's not just computers; I couldn't easily care less about fashion, or whether my clothes "go together", or any of that stuff (obviously ;), but I'm still not going to wear a bright neon pink plastic shirt with blinking-lighted yellow pants. Overly plain may be ugly, but overly gaudy is distracting verging on annoying. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Systems/Network Administrator | http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 4 13:57:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F36D437B401 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:57:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.gbronline.com (mail.gbronline.com [12.145.226.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E405643EC2 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:57:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kdk@daleco.biz) Received: from DaleCoportable [12.145.226.138] by mail.gbronline.com (SMTPD32-7.13) id A9CA20230280; Wed, 04 Dec 2002 15:55:22 -0600 Message-ID: <004201c29be0$0181f970$fa00a8c0@DaleCoportable> From: "Kevin D. Kinsey, DaleCo, S.P." To: "Sam Pikesley" , References: <20021204144125.17297.qmail@web14912.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: A banana user reviews pineapples Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 15:56:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: "Sam Pikesley" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 8:41 AM Subject: A banana user reviews pineapples > I found that some things were better and some were > worse. I didn't bother to read any of the > documentation that came with either of them. I tried > to use a tool designed for grapefruits on the > pineapple, but it didn't work. I'm really waiting for > the release of pineapple2.0 so I can ignore the > documentation for that too... > > ;) > Was that the "gooey" version, or just the key-lime interface? Kevin Kinsey DaleCo, S.P. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 4 21: 3:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31A1337B401; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from hgh.com (adsl-81-117-197.lft.bellsouth.net [65.81.117.197]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E600A43EA9; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:03:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hghsales@hgh.com) Reply-To: Message-ID: <015e30d87e0c$8466e3a8$3ad52ac3@slamnt> From: To: Customer@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Lose weight, look great - Forever young Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 05:58:17 -0100 MiME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C6_07C22E1C.C7548D84" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ------=_NextPart_000_00C6_07C22E1C.C7548D84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpBcyBzZWVuIG9uIE5CQywgQ0JTLCBhbmQgQ05OLCBhbmQgZXZlbiBPcHJh aCEgVGhlIGhlYWx0aCBkaXNjb3ZlcnkgdGhhdCBhY3R1YWxseSByZXZlcnNl cyBhZ2luZyB3aGlsZSANCmJ1cm5pbmcgZmF0LCB3aXRob3V0IGRpZXRpbmcg b3IgZXhlcmNpc2UhIFRoaXMgcHJvdmVuIGRpc2NvdmVyeSBoYXMgZXZlbiBi ZWVuIHJlcG9ydGVkIG9uIGJ5IHRoZSBOZXcgDQpFbmdsYW5kIEpvdXJuYWwg b2YgTWVkaWNpbmUuIEZvcmdldCBhZ2luZyBhbmQgZGlldGluZyBmb3JldmVy ISBBbmQgaXQncyBHdWFyYW50ZWVkIQ0KDQoNCiogUmVkdWNlIGJvZHkgZmF0 IGFuZCBidWlsZCBsZWFuIG11c2NsZSBXSVRIT1VUIEVYRVJDSVNFIQ0KKiBF bmhhY2Ugc2V4dWFsIHBlcmZvcm1hbmNlDQoqIFJlbW92ZSB3cmlua2xlcyBh bmQgY2VsbHVsaXRlDQoqIExvd2VyIGJsb29kIHByZXNzdXJlIGFuZCBpbXBy b3ZlIGNob2xlc3Rlcm9sIHByb2ZpbGUNCiogSW1wcm92ZSBzbGVlcCwgdmlz aW9uIGFuZCBtZW1vcnkNCiogUmVzdG9yZSBoYWlyIGNvbG9yIGFuZCBncm93 dGgNCiogU3RyZW5ndGhlbiB0aGUgaW1tdW5lIHN5c3RlbQ0KKiBJbmNyZWFz ZSBlbmVyZ3kgYW5kIGNhcmRpYWMgb3V0cHV0DQoqIFR1cm4gYmFjayB5b3Vy IGJvZHkncyBiaW9sb2dpY2FsIHRpbWUgY2xvY2sgMTAtMjAgeWVhcnMgaW4g NiBtb250aHMgb2YgdXNhZ2UgISEhDQoNCldlIGFyZSBTU0wgY2VydGlmaWVk IHNvIHRoYXQgeW91ciB0cmFuc2FjdGlvbnMgYXJlIHNhZmUgb25saW5lICEh IQ0KDQpodHRwOi8vMjAwLjIwNi4xODUuNTgvaGdoL2luZGV4LnBocD9pZD0y MDMNCjU0MDRocFVHMS0xODlJUVV0NDQ5OWdIc2E3LTI1NW1LTW41MzU3TFN6 eTAtMTE2bXpUUDk2MzZQamdmbDU2 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 4 23:54:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCC2637B401 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:54:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [209.145.65.55]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93FB43EC2 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:54:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian+freebsd-advocacy@ubergeeks.com) Received: from mail.ubergeeks.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ubergeeks.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id gB57skIP095882; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 02:54:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian+freebsd-advocacy@ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by mail.ubergeeks.com (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) with ESMTP id gB57skF7095879; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 02:54:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian+freebsd-advocacy@ubergeeks.com) X-Authentication-Warning: lorax.ubergeeks.com: adrian owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 02:54:46 -0500 (EST) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Ceri Davies Cc: Walter , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: How NSA access was built into Windows In-Reply-To: <20021201191010.GB4334@submonkey.net> Message-ID: <20021205025252.P95818-100000@lorax.ubergeeks.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 1 Dec 2002, Ceri Davies wrote: > On Sun, Dec 01, 2002 at 12:13:49PM -0500, Walter wrote: > > Mario Goebbels wrote: > > > Walter wrote: > > > > > >>Though a fairly old story, I just received this in an e-mail > > >>and I thought it appropriate for Advocacy. > > >> > > >> > > > >You're kidding, right? > > > No - should I be? :-} > > Yes, this has nothing to do with FreeBSD. > > Ceri Not specifically, but FreeBSD is an Open Source OS, and avoiding "bundled spyware" is one of the valid reasons for choosing Open Source options. i.e. It's a valid reason for choosing FreeBSD. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 5 5:34:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2FB237B401 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 05:34:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from jive.SoftHome.net (jive.SoftHome.net [66.54.152.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7F46843EC5 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 05:34:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yid@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 31476 invoked by uid 417); 5 Dec 2002 13:34:14 -0000 Received: from shunt-smtp-out-0 (HELO softhome.net) (172.16.3.12) by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 5 Dec 2002 13:34:14 -0000 Received: from localhost ([216.194.21.207]) by softhome.net with esmtp; Thu, 05 Dec 2002 06:33:43 -0700 Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1001) id CDEF844E; Thu, 5 Dec 2002 06:36:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 06:36:56 -0500 From: Joshua Lee To: Haikal Saadh Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: A FreeBSD User Reviews Mandrake. Let the flames flow. Message-ID: <20021205113656.GA1023@softhome.net> References: <20021204131506.GB4377@gothmog.gr> <000301c29b9d$35adab60$9802a8c0@warhawk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000301c29b9d$35adab60$9802a8c0@warhawk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 11:58:22PM +1000, Haikal Saadh wrote: > > I haven't installed Mandrake Linux lately, but are you sure you had > > to install both KDE and Gnome? As a matter of fact, do you really > > *need* X11 at all? I don't install anything X11-related to > > machines that are relatively slow or have limited resources. > > > I installed KDE in case I didn't like gnome. You might want to try something that's more lightweight than either GNOME or KDE, like one of the blackbox clones or Window Maker. Though you might want to install some GNOME libraries, especially gtk, for those GNOME applications that need them. Of course, if you *really* want to have X perform better in a low resource situation, you'll need an OS with a decent VM, like FreeBSD. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message