From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 2 7:52:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from kogut.o2.pl (kogut.o2.pl [212.126.20.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D49A37B433 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 2002 07:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [62.233.167.10]) by kogut.o2.pl (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFFCE2CAA72 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 2002 16:48:33 +0200 (CEST) X-Sender: info@o2.pl From: =?windows-1250?Q?t=B3umaczenie?= To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 16:52:08 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1250?Q?oferta_t=B3umaczenia?= Reply-To: info@o2.pl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020602144833.AFFCE2CAA72@kogut.o2.pl> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Szanowni Państwo, Chciałbym Państwu zaproponować usługę tłumaczenia z zakresu języka niemieckiego i angielskiego. Tłumaczenie we wszystkich możliwych konfiguracjach (pol-ang, ang-niem itd.) Posiadam kilkunastoletnie doświadczenie w tłumaczeniu różnorodnych tekstów ze szczególnym uwzględnieniem materiałów z zakresu business english, Wirtschaftsdeutsch, programy komputerowe. Z uwagi na fakt, że nie posiadam żadnego tytułu potwierdzającego moje kwalifikacje zawodowe w dziedzinie profesjonalnego tłumaczenie (tłumacz przysięgły itp.) mogę Państwu zaproponować korzystną ofertę cenową. Certyfikaty jakie posiadam to LCCI III - Business English, DeutschWirtschaftDiplom (DWD) Z poważaniem, Marcin G. W przypadku gdyby Państwo byli zainteresowani proszę o kontakt pod translations@o2.pl Dear Sir or Madam, I wish to offer you translation services in english, german and polish. All configurations e.i. germ - eng, eng - pol e.t.c. are possible. I posses quite long expierience in translating various written materials, especially with regard to business english, Wirtschaftsdeutsch and computer software. Owing to the fact that I am not able to produce any certificate that would prove my professional skills with regard to translations (e.g. certified translator) I can offer you favourable price. Certificates that I do posses are LCCI III - Business English and DWD - DeutschWirtschaftDiplom Sincerely, Marcin G. Should you be interested please contact me under translations@o2.pl To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 2 8:18:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au (mailman.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55B037B407; Sun, 2 Jun 2002 08:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bde.zeta.org.au (bde.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.102]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA04529; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 01:18:36 +1000 Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 01:22:14 +1000 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: bde@gamplex.bde.org To: Mike Barcroft Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing wait union In-Reply-To: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> Message-ID: <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Mike Barcroft wrote: > Does anyone have any objections to removing the deprecated 4.2/4.3BSD > wait union in ? It's been deprecating since Rev 1.1 and > there are only a few consumers in the base system. Attached are two > patches, one to removing it from and the other to remove > its consumers. Changes to lpd(8) sent directly to its maintainer. I think the only potential problem is use of the compatibility cruft in deprecware outside the base system. It would be useful to have a quick way to determine how many ports a change in a standard header affects. Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 2 9:30:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B5737B404 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 2002 09:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id JAA10934; Sun, 2 Jun 2002 09:30:51 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda10932; Sun Jun 2 09:30:37 2002 Received: from cwsys.cwsent.com (cwsys2 [10.1.2.1]) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g52GUUEb029727; Sun, 2 Jun 2002 09:30:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cy@cwsent.com) Received: from cwsys (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cwsys.cwsent.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g52GUTr1050616; Sun, 2 Jun 2002 09:30:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cy@cwsys.cwsent.com) Message-Id: <200206021630.g52GUTr1050616@cwsys.cwsent.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com To: Terry Lambert Cc: Daniel Blankensteiner , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD daemon configurations redesign In-Reply-To: Message from Terry Lambert of "Fri, 31 May 2002 13:55:30 PDT." <3CF7E342.C351A12E@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 09:30:29 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <3CF7E342.C351A12E@mindspring.com>, Terry Lambert writes: > Daniel Blankensteiner wrote: > > From: "Terry Lambert" > > To: "Daniel Blankensteiner" > > > I also think it's bad to put things under /etc, since I think > > > /etc should be read-only. I think that eventually, we will > > > see all such things live under /var. > > > > I am only talk about config files, the binaries and log should not be in > > here. > > I'm also taling about config files. > > Seperate config files is a bad idea. We tolerate it now because > a lot of things wouldn't fit into rc.conf (like the sendmail > configuration data). For things that can, they should. Your > examples were all things that can. I don't understand the > benefit of breaking them up, except to have more files to worry > about, and more things that need to be writeable (or symlinked > and moved, when / isn't writeable). IBM's ODM gives you the best of both worlds, a centrally managed database which generates our beloved files. The AIX team here has yet to see it break but they shudder to think what they'd do if it did. Ideally what I would like to see is a port of Tivoli to FreeBSD. -- Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/Alpha Team Email: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, CITS Ministry of Management Services Province of BC FreeBSD UNIX: cy@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 3 16:10:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from espresso.q9media.com (espresso.q9media.com [216.254.138.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B10C37B401 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mike@localhost) by espresso.q9media.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g53N8Ie88061; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 19:08:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 19:08:18 -0400 From: Mike Barcroft To: Bruce Evans Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing wait union Message-ID: <20020603190818.E16166@espresso.q9media.com> References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org>; from bde@zeta.org.au on Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:22:14AM +1000 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bruce Evans writes: > On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Mike Barcroft wrote: > > > Does anyone have any objections to removing the deprecated 4.2/4.3BSD > > wait union in ? It's been deprecating since Rev 1.1 and > > there are only a few consumers in the base system. Attached are two > > patches, one to removing it from and the other to remove > > its consumers. Changes to lpd(8) sent directly to its maintainer. > > I think the only potential problem is use of the compatibility cruft > in deprecware outside the base system. It would be useful to have a > quick way to determine how many ports a change in a standard header > affects. Kris is going to do a test run of the ports build for me. Best regards, Mike Barcroft To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 3 16:18:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from softweyr.com (softweyr.com [65.88.244.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A86137B40D for ; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nextgig-8.customer.nethere.net ([209.132.102.168] helo=softweyr.com) by softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17F15N-0008OT-00; Mon, 03 Jun 2002 17:18:01 -0600 Message-ID: <3CFBF959.B6BF5E08@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 16:18:49 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group Cc: Terry Lambert , Daniel Blankensteiner , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD daemon configurations redesign References: <200206021630.g52GUTr1050616@cwsys.cwsent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group wrote: > > In message <3CF7E342.C351A12E@mindspring.com>, Terry Lambert writes: > > Daniel Blankensteiner wrote: > > > > > > I'm also taling about config files. > > > > Seperate config files is a bad idea. We tolerate it now because > > a lot of things wouldn't fit into rc.conf (like the sendmail > > configuration data). For things that can, they should. Your > > examples were all things that can. I don't understand the > > benefit of breaking them up, except to have more files to worry > > about, and more things that need to be writeable (or symlinked > > and moved, when / isn't writeable). > > IBM's ODM gives you the best of both worlds, a centrally managed > database which generates our beloved files. The AIX team here has yet > to see it break but they shudder to think what they'd do if it did. They haven't been around long enough then. I used to explode the ODM on AIX 3.1.5 on a daily basis. I would've been much fonder of ODM back then if IBM had actually bothered to produce some readable documentation on it; it is a good system once they stabilized it around AIX 3.2.3 or so. > Ideally what I would like to see is a port of Tivoli to FreeBSD. Sorry, Unisys wouldn't let us get away with that. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 3 16:25:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-56.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A2BD37B401; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3949166C49; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:25:09 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Bruce Evans Cc: Mike Barcroft , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing wait union Message-ID: <20020603162508.A34224@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org>; from bde@zeta.org.au on Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:22:14AM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:22:14AM +1000, Bruce Evans wrote: > On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Mike Barcroft wrote: >=20 > > Does anyone have any objections to removing the deprecated 4.2/4.3BSD > > wait union in ? It's been deprecating since Rev 1.1 and > > there are only a few consumers in the base system. Attached are two > > patches, one to removing it from and the other to remove > > its consumers. Changes to lpd(8) sent directly to its maintainer. >=20 > I think the only potential problem is use of the compatibility cruft > in deprecware outside the base system. It would be useful to have a > quick way to determine how many ports a change in a standard header > affects. I'm always happy to test proposed patches on the ports cluster. Kris --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE8+/rUWry0BWjoQKURAoc1AJ9DfgkeWMjOFrfKhaRqoW0HTYjOEQCgpq+2 43QlUzTdjMYaVH8g0uN/Tsw= =AC41 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 3 16:50:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1638737B405; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0111.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.111] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17F1au-0002Dc-00; Mon, 03 Jun 2002 16:50:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3CFC00A9.BD98B7BD@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 16:50:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Bruce Evans , Mike Barcroft , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing wait union References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603162508.A34224@xor.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:22:14AM +1000, Bruce Evans wrote: > > I think the only potential problem is use of the compatibility cruft > > in deprecware outside the base system. It would be useful to have a > > quick way to determine how many ports a change in a standard header > > affects. > > I'm always happy to test proposed patches on the ports cluster. I think the problem needs something other than the ports cluster. The ports cluster is designed to keep dependencies seperate, so it serializes a lot of things that could otherwise be done in parallel, to ensure dependency order is maintained. I think that, for the most part, what you care about in this case is not catching broken dependencies, but catching breakage caused by system cahnges, not inter-port dependency changes. This really argues that you could install the ports sources on a machine, and then build out all of the ports from local copies of all the packages, in parallel -- if you had already installed the things on which they dependend on the machine. This would let you basically re-build in parallel, without needing to enforce ports dependency order, on a single machine instead of a cluster, and much faster, because all the dependencies would already be there (from the previous "install" of all ports, rather than from the build process for an individual port). All the builds could be done in parallel in their own subdirectories (not installed), so the process could be much fater than using the cluster the way the cluser is supposed to be used. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 3 17:51:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.22.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B4B637B400 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 17:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g540penK080114; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 20:51:40 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3CFC00A9.BD98B7BD@mindspring.com> References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603162508.A34224@xor.obsecurity.org> <3CFC00A9.BD98B7BD@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 20:51:39 -0400 To: Terry Lambert , Kris Kennaway From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Removing wait union Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.3 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 4:50 PM -0700 6/3/02, Terry Lambert wrote: >All the builds could be done in parallel in their own >subdirectories (not installed), so the process could be >much faster than using the cluster the way the cluser is >supposed to be used. This implies the building of a second cluster, one that is setup for doing these parallel builds. That sounds like it would be more trouble (to setup, and to keep setup) than it's worth. Might as well just use the tools we already have. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 3 18:15:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-56.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E14A237B407 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6AD0966C49; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:15:37 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Terry Lambert Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing wait union Message-ID: <20020603181537.A37707@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603162508.A34224@xor.obsecurity.org> <3CFC00A9.BD98B7BD@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="r5Pyd7+fXNt84Ff3" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CFC00A9.BD98B7BD@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 04:50:01PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --r5Pyd7+fXNt84Ff3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 04:50:01PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 01:22:14AM +1000, Bruce Evans wrote: > > > I think the only potential problem is use of the compatibility cruft > > > in deprecware outside the base system. It would be useful to have a > > > quick way to determine how many ports a change in a standard header > > > affects. > >=20 > > I'm always happy to test proposed patches on the ports cluster. >=20 > I think the problem needs something other than the ports cluster. >=20 > The ports cluster is designed to keep dependencies seperate, so it > serializes a lot of things that could otherwise be done in parallel, > to ensure dependency order is maintained. In practise this isn't an issue. I haven't obtained accurate statistics, but the cluster runs at full capacity for pretty much the entire build. Kris --r5Pyd7+fXNt84Ff3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE8/BS4Wry0BWjoQKURAvWOAKCQt/P/VD9jj0zBlrtmBTfG1mGEQQCfcm/h ATIZw/8RRqhb/gB7qGgu8r4= =itUr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --r5Pyd7+fXNt84Ff3-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 3 18:25:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 248A837B404 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0469.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.214] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17F34j-0000lV-00; Mon, 03 Jun 2002 18:25:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3CFC16DD.240E4AFD@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 18:24:45 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Kris Kennaway , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing wait union References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603162508.A34224@xor.obsecurity.org> <3CFC00A9.BD98B7BD@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Garance A Drosihn wrote: > At 4:50 PM -0700 6/3/02, Terry Lambert wrote: > >All the builds could be done in parallel in their own > >subdirectories (not installed), so the process could be > >much faster than using the cluster the way the cluser is > >supposed to be used. > > This implies the building of a second cluster, one that is > setup for doing these parallel builds. That sounds like > it would be more trouble (to setup, and to keep setup) > than it's worth. Might as well just use the tools we > already have. No, you don't need a cluster. I think people are not understanding the problem. The problem is that a change to the system breaks the build of a package. What this means is that you should be able to: 1) Build all the packages on a system 2) Install everything that wasn't automatically installed as a dependency This gives you a system where all the *port* dependencies of any randomly selected port are pre-satisfied, so the building can take place independently from any other port. It's about getting to the point where the dependencies are presatisfied. The ports cluster is not about that. It's all about ensuring that no dependencies are lost, or implicitly satisfied. Effectively, you could get very close to a system that could be used to build all the ports in parallel, in their own directory, by simply installing all the packages in existance. You really don't give a damn that the installed *binaries* of a port on which you depend for actual operation would end up being different, too. So you break the need for dependency order enforcement between different ports. In very simple terms: o The point of the ports cluster is to make sure that dependencies on other ports aren't broken o The point of this system would be to make sure that dependencies on the system aren't broken Two very different problems. The solution of the first needs a ports cluster to be able to solve it within about 8 hours. But the much of that 8 hours is based on dependency ordering that you can throw away, if you are trying to solve the "system changed" problem, rather than the "ports changed" problem. Make sense? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 3 18:34:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFD9C37B408 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0469.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.214] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17F3DW-00057Q-00; Mon, 03 Jun 2002 18:34:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3CFC1905.BF824FF3@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 18:33:57 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing wait union References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603162508.A34224@xor.obsecurity.org> <3CFC00A9.BD98B7BD@mindspring.com> <20020603181537.A37707@xor.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway wrote: > > I think the problem needs something other than the ports cluster. > > > > The ports cluster is designed to keep dependencies seperate, so it > > serializes a lot of things that could otherwise be done in parallel, > > to ensure dependency order is maintained. > > In practise this isn't an issue. I haven't obtained accurate > statistics, but the cluster runs at full capacity for pretty much the > entire build. You need to keep statistics of how many times each individual port is built, in the cluster case (i.e. you need a combinatoric dependency map and a way to factor out permutations that are necessary for solving the ports problem, but not necessary for solving the "what breaks?" problem). When you build a given port on its own little virtual box, you also build all the ports on which it depends. This is by design, since it avoid the problem of finding dependencies which are not explicitly called out. In the case of a system change, you aren't concerned about that; in fact, you *want* it to happen, since it reduces the total build time. How many machines are in the ports cluster? Knowing how many total cycles are required, and how many redundant dependency builds happen, would be a good way to ballpark whether it's feasible to build a single machine that can tell what is broken by a proposed base OS change, before the change is checked in. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 3 18:37:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-56.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B8437B407 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 654A066C49; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:37:27 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Terry Lambert Cc: Garance A Drosihn , Kris Kennaway , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing wait union Message-ID: <20020603183726.A38159@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603162508.A34224@xor.obsecurity.org> <3CFC00A9.BD98B7BD@mindspring.com> <3CFC16DD.240E4AFD@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jRHKVT23PllUwdXP" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CFC16DD.240E4AFD@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 06:24:45PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --jRHKVT23PllUwdXP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 06:24:45PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > No, you don't need a cluster. Um, yes you do. > I think people are not understanding the problem. >=20 > The problem is that a change to the system breaks the build > of a package. >=20 > What this means is that you should be able to: >=20 > 1) Build all the packages on a system > 2) Install everything that wasn't automatically installed as > a dependency Um, Terry, we have over 7000 ports now. It takes our 8-way cluster 20 hours to build them (sorry, the 8 hours I said earlier was wrong); as already stated it runs at close to 100% capacity the entire time. Therefore a good estimate of the number of equivalent CPU-hours is 8*20 hours =3D 6 2/3 CPU-days. Very little time is wasted with the cluster sitting idle waiting for dependencies to build (and I can probably get that down to 0 time wasted if I just reorder the makefile a bit to start the build of long dependency branches like GNOME first - GNOME and KDE are the only "choke points" where the cluster ends up idling for a few minutes except for one or two machines: by that time everything else is finished anyway). > Two very different problems. The solution of the first needs a > ports cluster to be able to solve it within about 8 hours. But > the much of that 8 hours is based on dependency ordering that > you can throw away, if you are trying to solve the "system changed" > problem, rather than the "ports changed" problem. >=20 > Make sense? No, because the above is wrong ;-) Please accept that I actually know what I'm talking about (since I've been managing the ports cluster for about 8 months now) and just drop the matter. Kris --jRHKVT23PllUwdXP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE8/BnWWry0BWjoQKURAjJwAKCW0ZUkYDtr90pfjoXIHYV+yUXo+ACgqA+I C2QhyEXYyh73oBqV1wmuZng= =TILV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jRHKVT23PllUwdXP-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 3 18:39:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-56.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2862E37B403 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 778ED66C49; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:39:16 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Terry Lambert Cc: Kris Kennaway , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing wait union Message-ID: <20020603183916.A38370@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603162508.A34224@xor.obsecurity.org> <3CFC00A9.BD98B7BD@mindspring.com> <20020603181537.A37707@xor.obsecurity.org> <3CFC1905.BF824FF3@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CFC1905.BF824FF3@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 06:33:57PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 06:33:57PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > I think the problem needs something other than the ports cluster. > > > > > > The ports cluster is designed to keep dependencies seperate, so it > > > serializes a lot of things that could otherwise be done in parallel, > > > to ensure dependency order is maintained. > >=20 > > In practise this isn't an issue. I haven't obtained accurate > > statistics, but the cluster runs at full capacity for pretty much the > > entire build. >=20 > You need to keep statistics of how many times each individual port > is built, in the cluster case (i.e. you need a combinatoric dependency > map and a way to factor out permutations that are necessary for > solving the ports problem, but not necessary for solving the "what > breaks?" problem). Here are your statistics. Each port is built precisely this many times: 1 Jesus, Terry, please give us a little bit of credit for not being completely stupid. Kris --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE8/BpDWry0BWjoQKURArCCAJ9a57PKwzXO52hMQUD5Rc0Pwp0V8QCfbSxy nyJfkpKZpmadbjZ321Ki7uc= =sHSE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --EeQfGwPcQSOJBaQU-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 3 18:43:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail16.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590EC37B404 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 14396 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2002 01:43:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail16.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 4 Jun 2002 01:43:41 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (laptop.baldwin.cx [192.168.0.4]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g541hwF51332; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 21:43:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3CFC1905.BF824FF3@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 21:43:21 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Removing wait union Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-Jun-2002 Terry Lambert wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: >> > I think the problem needs something other than the ports cluster. >> > >> > The ports cluster is designed to keep dependencies seperate, so it >> > serializes a lot of things that could otherwise be done in parallel, >> > to ensure dependency order is maintained. >> >> In practise this isn't an issue. I haven't obtained accurate >> statistics, but the cluster runs at full capacity for pretty much the >> entire build. > > You need to keep statistics of how many times each individual port > is built, in the cluster case (i.e. you need a combinatoric dependency > map and a way to factor out permutations that are necessary for > solving the ports problem, but not necessary for solving the "what > breaks?" problem). Each port should be built once. > When you build a given port on its own little virtual box, you > also build all the ports on which it depends. This is by design, > since it avoid the problem of finding dependencies which are not > explicitly called out. Erm, nope, dependencies are pkg_add'd and then the port is built (IIRC). If a port doesn't specify a dependency that it needs then that is an error. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 3 20:43: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from squall.waterspout.com (squall.waterspout.com [208.13.56.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E08237B400 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 20:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by squall.waterspout.com (Postfix, from userid 1050) id 481239B77; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 22:42:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 22:42:46 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Terry Lambert Cc: Kris Kennaway , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing wait union Message-ID: <20020604034246.GD53809@squall.waterspout.com> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Kris Kennaway , arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603162508.A34224@xor.obsecurity.org> <3CFC00A9.BD98B7BD@mindspring.com> <20020603181537.A37707@xor.obsecurity.org> <3CFC1905.BF824FF3@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gXx2FYK2AghGE4Yq" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CFC1905.BF824FF3@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.26i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --gXx2FYK2AghGE4Yq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 06:33:57PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > How many machines are in the ports cluster? Knowing how many total > cycles are required, and how many redundant dependency builds happen, Terry, you just proved you don't actually know anything about the software used to build packages on the bento cluster (and potentially elsewhere). I would suggest that you do a little resarch before talking and leave the package build cluster details to the people who run it. Regards, --=20 wca --gXx2FYK2AghGE4Yq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8/Dc1F47idPgWcsURAoyOAJ0Xnumz9vf+EeOKMNyHkEI3A7dlqgCgjljR xyZfq7NgUj1s7hULSBmejI8= =7Fnw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gXx2FYK2AghGE4Yq-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 3 23:26:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD2B737B407 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 23:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0394.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.139] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17F7jw-0004ON-00; Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:24:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3CFC5CC8.22AE7B92@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:23:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Will Andrews Cc: Kris Kennaway , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Avoiding unnecessary breakage (was Re: Removing wait union) References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603162508.A34224@xor.obsecurity.org> <3CFC00A9.BD98B7BD@mindspring.com> <20020603181537.A37707@xor.obsecurity.org> <3CFC1905.BF824FF3@mindspring.com> <20020604034246.GD53809@squall.waterspout.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Will Andrews wrote: [ ... ] This thread is not about the ports cluster, per se. We could actually care less about actually building the ports as they will be used, in this case. It is a proposed means, not an ends. I have changed the subject to avoid any further confusion. -- This whole thread started because Kris wanted developers to be individually responsible for fixing the ports that broke because of their commits to the OS, or, as a minimum second derivative, for notifying the official maintainer of a port that was broken as a result of such a commit. This requires that developers making such changes have a-priori knowledge of the effects of their changes on code that is probably not, nor ever will be, installed on their machines. The problem with just requiring this unilaterally is that I don't know of one developer, other than Kris, who has a box with all of the ports source code on it so that changes that might have this impact can be tested. Why am I posting at all in this thread? I'm personally philosophically opposed to the idea of "bit rot": when the ISODE and X.25 code "rotted" because it was not maintained when the routing code was changed out from under it, and when the LFS code was moved to the attic because the unified VM/buffer cache code changes were checked in without maintaining the LFS code (a client of the VM and buffer cache code), it really pissed me off. It really, really, really pissed me off. Kris has identified an analogous situation with base system changes impacting ports. It's a natural extension of the same philosophy, though it's harder to justify unilaterally, because it involved third party code that's not "part of the OS". My participation in this thread is therefore about whether or not it's possible to come up with some method of determining what ports will be broken by a proposed change, before that change is made, and in a reasonable time frame, with a reasonable amount of effort, which it would be reasonable to expect a developer who is contemplating such a change to expend. In effect, this means that, if this idea is to go forward, there are only a few obvious courses of action: 1) Build another "ports cluster" so that changes can be tested before they are committed 2) Find another way around the problem, which has less overhead than #1 3) Run all such changes through the existing ports cluster by having Kris apply them locally on the machines, without them having been checked into CVS, and giving a thumbs up/down to the change. 4) Tell Kris "lump it": breakage is going to happen, and it's up to you as the ports guy to mop out the rest rooms after the concert, after we have peed all over the fixtures (i.e. leave things as they are now). Call me crazy, but I think #4 is not an option. Kris would not have raised the issue if it were OK with him to define the breakage as "necessary". I also don't think that #3 is an option. The anti-process people would probably object to having to run their code through another volunteer, who could not say "yes/no" until he could find the time. It would, at the very least, be a definite bottleneck. #1's a possibility, but it's unlikely to be a useful possibility, and it almost implies #3, since it requires a gatekeeper, if only for scheduling use of the cluster. Such resources would probably be better spent on doing the primary work of the ports cluster, anyway: building ports. So that leaves #2. If you can think of any other options, please chime in *now*. So if you don't mind, I'd like to continue looking at ways to attack implementing #2, unless you are prepared to find someone else (or ar volunteering yourself, instead of implicitly volunteering Kris, again) to muck out the restrooms after the next concert. Thanks, -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 3 23:44: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8CC037B400 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 23:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0394.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.139] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17F82r-0005iE-00; Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:43:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3CFC617C.849AF2C6@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:43:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Garance A Drosihn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Avoiding unnecessary breakage References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603162508.A34224@xor.obsecurity.org> <3CFC00A9.BD98B7BD@mindspring.com> <3CFC16DD.240E4AFD@mindspring.com> <20020603183726.A38159@xor.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 06:24:45PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > No, you don't need a cluster. > > Um, yes you do. If this is the *only possible way* to tell if a port will be broken by a FreeBSD change, then I hold little hope that your request that people avoid breaking ports with their commits can ever be satisfied. > Um, Terry, we have over 7000 ports now. It takes our 8-way cluster 20 > hours to build them (sorry, the 8 hours I said earlier was wrong); as > already stated it runs at close to 100% capacity the entire time. > Therefore a good estimate of the number of equivalent CPU-hours is > 8*20 hours = 6 2/3 CPU-days. > > Very little time is wasted with the cluster sitting idle waiting for > dependencies to build (and I can probably get that down to 0 time > wasted if I just reorder the makefile a bit to start the build of long > dependency branches like GNOME first - GNOME and KDE are the only > "choke points" where the cluster ends up idling for a few minutes > except for one or two machines: by that time everything else is > finished anyway). Thanks for the real information. I was hoping, from my old understanding of the ports build out from a past discussion with Satoshi Asami, that it was possible to shave a factorial off of the build time because the build-out itself was reponsible for signalling missing package dependencies. This message implies that, even if you installed packages for previous versions of all ports so that all build dependencies bould be satisfied for all ports, without building anything but the port itself (without installing it), it would not significantly reduce the overall build time. I knew that some of the build-out was serialized, but I was hoping the average dependency depth wasn't as shallow as it appears to be. 8-(. If this is all that can be done, it look like quadrupling the number of machines, and making the cluster generally available to attempts builds on "-current + patches" (to get the test time for ports breakages caused by a base OS change to under 5 hours), is probably not a workable solution to the problem. I rather expect that if the resources for this existed, they would already be in use as part of the "ports cluster". Short of going on an "interface usage classification" binge, I don't really see how it would be possible to automate the process of identifying ports that would be broken by a proposed change, other than breaking them, and letting you do the build that finds the breakage, and the notifying the ports maintainers that they need to "take care of it" on a per-individual-port basis. > No, because the above is wrong ;-) > > Please accept that I actually know what I'm talking about (since I've > been managing the ports cluster for about 8 months now) and just drop > the matter. It's ancillary to the matter you raised, about people breaking ports with commits to the base OS. I don't believe in "bit rot", but if, as everyone is claiming, it's impossible to reduce the problem, I think you are going to have to just live with the consequences of base OS changes meaning broken ports which don't show up until you do your builds. Sorry. 8-(. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 3 23:45:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAB1437B404; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 23:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0394.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.139] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17F84M-0006hH-00; Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:45:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3CFC61DC.FD5591AA@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:44:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: Removing wait union References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin wrote: > Each port should be built once. [ ... ] > Erm, nope, dependencies are pkg_add'd and then the port is built (IIRC). > If a port doesn't specify a dependency that it needs then that is an error. No blood in that stone, then. Looks like option #4 wins. 8-(. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 6:37:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from popcs.cs.tin.it (popcs.cs.tin.it [194.243.155.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 424B237B404 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 06:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12501 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2002 13:41:50 -0000 Received: from cruiser.cs.tin.it (HELO cs.tin.it) (212.216.178.193) by popcs.cs.tin.it with SMTP; 4 Jun 2002 13:41:50 -0000 Message-ID: <3CFCC261.EBDDF0EB@cs.tin.it> Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 15:36:33 +0200 From: Ferruccio Vitale X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: O Senhor , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newbie needs help!!!!! References: <3CF49F6F.769C7715@cs.tin.it> <1023127562.25407.54.camel@ws-tor-0004> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG O Senhor wrote: > hello, > In the FreeBSD home page, there is docomentations for developers, that > talk about it. > > On Wed, 2002-05-29 at 06:29, Ferruccio Vitale wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I'm trying to write a kernel module which make use of kernel event. > > is there anyone who knows where I can find documentation about this? > > Regards, > > > Ok, I've already read those pages, real useful to start. Now I've my module, which creates dynamic sysctl and so on; now I need to monitor the existence of another process and I tough at kqueue/kevent method. But are these functions for userland process, aren't they? How could I do the same in kernel land? Ferruccio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 7:28:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from web21105.mail.yahoo.com (web21105.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.227.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DF4DB37B404 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 07:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020604142836.26297.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [62.254.0.5] by web21105.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:28:36 PDT Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 07:28:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Hiten Pandya Reply-To: hiten@uk.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Newbie needs help!!!!! To: Ferruccio Vitale , O Senhor , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3CFCC261.EBDDF0EB@cs.tin.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --- Ferruccio Vitale wrote: > Ok, I've already read those pages, real useful to start. > Now I've my module, which creates dynamic sysctl and so on; now I need to > monitor the existence of another process and I tough at kqueue/kevent > method. But are these functions for userland process, aren't they? How > could I do the same in kernel land? Try the kevent(2) manual page. It has some good amount of information. I am including some more pointers for you. Hope they are useful. Thanks. http://www.madison-gurkha.com/publications/kqueue/ http://people.freebsd.org/~jlemon/kqueue_slides/ As a bonus, and example of how use the kqueue(2)/kevent(2) API: http://www.monkeys.com/freeware/kqueue-echo.c Have fun. Hope this helps. Regards. -- Hiten __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 10:53:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rodney.cnchost.com (rodney.concentric.net [207.155.252.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E01837B413 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 10:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitblocks.com (adsl-209-204-185-216.sonic.net [209.204.185.216]) by rodney.cnchost.com id NAA08182; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:52:57 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-ID: <200206041752.NAA08182@rodney.cnchost.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: Will Andrews , Kris Kennaway , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Avoiding unnecessary breakage (was Re: Removing wait union) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Jun 2002 23:23:04 PDT." <3CFC5CC8.22AE7B92@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 10:52:56 -0700 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'm personally philosophically opposed to the idea of "bit rot": Me too. > My participation in this thread is therefore about whether or not > it's possible to come up with some method of determining what > ports will be broken by a proposed change, before that change is > made, and in a reasonable time frame, with a reasonable amount of > effort, which it would be reasonable to expect a developer who is > contemplating such a change to expend. > > In effect, this means that, if this idea is to go forward, there > are only a few obvious courses of action: > > 1) Build another "ports cluster" so that changes can be tested > before they are committed > > 2) Find another way around the problem, which has less overhead > than #1 > > 3) Run all such changes through the existing ports cluster by > having Kris apply them locally on the machines, without them > having been checked into CVS, and giving a thumbs up/down to > the change. > > 4) Tell Kris "lump it": breakage is going to happen, and it's > up to you as the ports guy to mop out the rest rooms after > the concert, after we have peed all over the fixtures (i.e. > leave things as they are now). Another possibility is to figure out a way to not cause so much bit rot in the first place. Let me explain. Most systems companies understand the software they sell (and around which their customers and 3rd party vendors add much more software) exists to solve customers' problems and breaking interfaces DOES NOT help that cause. So there is usually a group (or an individual) commited maintaining compatibility. Breaking interfaces is not prohibited but it is not taken lightly. Alternatives are explored to eliminate or at least, reduce the pain a customer or 3rd party vendor has to go through to upgrade. This is also why a lot of care goes in documentation -- what is not promised doesn't have to be maintained. Such an entity seems to be missing in the FreeBSD camp (and others too but we are only talking about FreeBSD here). Leaving such decisions solely upto developers doesn't work because developers have their own agenda (which is frequently at cross purposes with each others', and with the groups' goals). In my view having an active architecture group that is responsibile for user/system interfaces would help tremendously. In order for it to be effective it needs people who have developers' respect for their judgement, experience and technical skills. They need to be persuasive and tough enough to help convince developers to work toward a common goal. Whether this is doable in the FreeBSD world, I can't say. I don't see most FreeBSD developers accepting such a change easily even if you can find people with skills, sound judgement and free time; but with over 7000 ports there needs to be policy changes as well, not just mechanism changes (which is what your #1, 2 & 3 are about). Another mechanism idea to add to your list (I think someone may have already mentioned it): - create an index of which ports use what include files, what system/library calls etc. If an interface needs to be changed the developer can quickly find out what ports will be affected. If the developer were forced to fix these ports before allowed to commit an interface change, most people will think harder about changes! Comments? -- bakul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 11:34:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.22.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DAE837B404 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 11:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g54IYZI8564770; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:34:35 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200206041752.NAA08182@rodney.cnchost.com> References: <200206041752.NAA08182@rodney.cnchost.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:34:34 -0400 To: Bakul Shah , Terry Lambert From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Avoiding unnecessary breakage (was Re: Removing wait union) Cc: Will Andrews , Kris Kennaway , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.3 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:52 AM -0700 6/4/02, Bakul Shah wrote: >Most systems companies understand the software they sell (and >around which their customers and 3rd party vendors add much >more software) exists to solve customers' problems and >breaking interfaces DOES NOT help that cause. ... Most system companies who SELL software are also PAYING their employees to work on that software. >Such an entity seems to be missing in the FreeBSD camp (and >others too but we are only talking about FreeBSD here). >Comments? Note that some of the changes we are talking about are being done to conform to standards. It isn't just "random bit rot", it is fixing things to follow standards as those standards are agreed upon. The idea of standards is to make it easier to port an application between operating-systems. And some of the changes are to correctly handle new platforms. We (FreeBSD) could certainly expend more effort to try to make these transitions go smoother. However, to do that would require more effort, and someone who is willing to volunteer to do that extra effort. I realize it's a hassle when programs have to be changed to match these standards-related system changes, but I'm kind of annoyed that people characterize these changes as if they are rash, meaningless changes. It's very easy to keep interfaces consistent if you're not doing anything. It's tougher when you're trying to shoot at several different targets, all of which are moving as you're shooting at them. You have a limited resource (the people volunteering to work on FreeBSD), and you're trying to get the most out of that, without discouraging people so much that they just leave. I hope this is not sounding too sarcastic, because I do agree with the general idea that we should "avoid unnecessary breakage". It is pretty easy to say that, but it is hard to actually do it, while still moving the operating system forward. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 13:33:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C290B37B403; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 13:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g54KXRDK025589; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:33:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g54KXQ36025588; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:33:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:33:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200206042033.g54KXQ36025588@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: olgeni@uli.it Subject: Re: sysinstall, time zone selection and /etc/X11 X-Newsgroups: mit.lcs.mail.freebsd-qa In-Reply-To: <20020604214716.W63192-100000@olgeni.olgeni> Organization: MIT Laboratory for Computer Science Cc: qa@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In article <20020604214716.W63192-100000@olgeni.olgeni> you write: >Just nitpicking... maybe the "Does the XXX abbreviation look >reasonable" dialog box should be a character taller, so the separator >will not bump into the text line =) Actually, it should say something like: Based on your current system time and the timezone you just selected, the time is now: Tue Jun 4 16:27:40 EDT 2002 [OK] [Try another timezone] [Change system time] Originally, tzsetup would try to display the date, and ask if it looked correct, but it frequently got it wrong (particularly when the `wall CMOS' option was selected) and even more frequently confused users who had misadjusted clocks. If anyone wants to fix this, I have no proprietary feelings whatsoever towards `tzsetup'. - -GAWollman -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE8/SQNI+eG6b7tlG4RAsp2AJ9HdCqKSNicIq1FRzAKu/NTVIgVsQCeLaF2 qprf5yrXhHFTJJV2OK6gCNw= =hrpm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 14:10:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-56.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297AF37B407; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B54B466C49; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:09:57 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Mike Barcroft Cc: Bruce Evans , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing wait union Message-ID: <20020604140957.A63493@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603190818.E16166@espresso.q9media.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pWyiEgJYm5f9v55/" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020603190818.E16166@espresso.q9media.com>; from mike@FreeBSD.ORG on Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 07:08:18PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --pWyiEgJYm5f9v55/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 07:08:18PM -0400, Mike Barcroft wrote: > Bruce Evans writes: > > On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Mike Barcroft wrote: > >=20 > > > Does anyone have any objections to removing the deprecated 4.2/4.3BSD > > > wait union in ? It's been deprecating since Rev 1.1 and > > > there are only a few consumers in the base system. Attached are two > > > patches, one to removing it from and the other to remove > > > its consumers. Changes to lpd(8) sent directly to its maintainer. > >=20 > > I think the only potential problem is use of the compatibility cruft > > in deprecware outside the base system. It would be useful to have a > > quick way to determine how many ports a change in a standard header > > affects. >=20 > Kris is going to do a test run of the ports build for me. 19 ports failed, and 3152+465 port builds were attempted. Assuming the same percentage of the rest will fail that comes to around 36 ports failing out of 7000 in the collection. I'd be happy with the patch going in as long as someone commits to fixing them. Kris --pWyiEgJYm5f9v55/ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE8/SylWry0BWjoQKURAnUZAJwPCMAX5UGr/zQKejdeJMcjQf6hkgCeNu08 XXCv1zEyWrEJYMLvAoysD/k= =RRu2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pWyiEgJYm5f9v55/-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 14:20:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from Awfulhak.org (gw.Awfulhak.org [217.204.245.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B931E37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org [IPv6:fec0::1:12]) by Awfulhak.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g54LKPKZ006564; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:20:25 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost [IPv6:::1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id g54LKMAI034369; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:20:22 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:20:22 +0100 From: Brian Somers To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: bakul@bitblocks.com, tlambert2@mindspring.com, will@csociety.org, kris@obsecurity.org, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Avoiding unnecessary breakage (was Re: Removing wait union) Message-Id: <20020604222022.6f935871.brian@Awfulhak.org> In-Reply-To: References: <200206041752.NAA08182@rodney.cnchost.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:34:34 -0400, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > I hope this is not sounding too sarcastic, because I do agree > with the general idea that we should "avoid unnecessary breakage". > It is pretty easy to say that, but it is hard to actually do it, > while still moving the operating system forward. Many software vendors would say that a published interface can only be removed after two major releases of the software. The first major release should suggest that the interface is depricated and should no longer be used (the documentation should probably suggest the (new?) alternatives too). The following release can then remove the interface. While this is painful for the developer, it's necessary for any API provider in order to provide a *viable* platform for building upon. Personally, I think FreeBSD should adopt such a strategy. Whilst it would also be nice to have an Architecture group that could control this sort of thing, I don't think that's at all practical for FreeBSD. -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 14:31:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E820A37B403 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g54LUiDK025979; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:30:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g54LUijN025978; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:30:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:30:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200206042130.g54LUijN025978@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: brian@Awfulhak.org Subject: Re: Avoiding unnecessary breakage (was Re: Removing wait union) In-Reply-To: <20020604222022.6f935871.brian@Awfulhak.org> References: <200206041752.NAA08182@rodney.cnchost.com> Organization: MIT Laboratory for Computer Science Cc: arch@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In article <20020604222022.6f935871.brian@Awfulhak.org> you write: >Many software vendors would say that a published interface can only be >removed after two major releases of the software. By that measure, `union wait' has been deprecated to the extent of not being documented for almost ten years. 4.4-Lite only documented the Standard interface. - -GAWollman -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE8/TGCI+eG6b7tlG4RAqxTAKCpGda3MrJR6m8VATZ+oUAgprKH6wCdELMC iX0jPsvMP3DFrG55eijw3tg= =si16 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 14:57:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7614437B405 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g54LuLCd041486 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:56:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Avoiding unnecessary breakage (was Re: Removing wait union) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 2002 17:30:44 EDT." <200206042130.g54LUijN025978@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 23:56:21 +0200 Message-ID: <41485.1023227781@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>Many software vendors would say that a published interface can only be >>removed after two major releases of the software. One of the things which makes FreeBSD competitive, is our ability to adapt to changing circumstances. If we rigidly enforce inflexible rules like the one proposed above, we will loose most of that agility. Backwards compatibility is a heavy burden, one should not needlessly add to its weight. I agree that backwards compatibility should be sought, but not at any cost, and certainly not in a "one-size-fits-all!" corporate manner. The FreeBSD project is about doing things right, and in doing so we expose other pieces of software which didn't do things right. I'm sure many people here remember the havoc when we suddenly started implementing vfork(2) to spec ? Even inetd(8) broke as far as I recall. Or think about the countless bugs phkmalloc has exposed all over the place ? Is anybody seriously proposing that we should emulate the buggy behaviour of past malloc(3) implementations, just so that we don't break buggy software in ports ? [*] _Of course_ it is unfortunate that we break some number of ports improving FreeBSD, but that is exactly _why we have_ the ports collection in the first place: to be able to shield our users from buggy "all the world is a vax^H^H^Hlinux" software and changes in APIs and preferred ways of doing things. I think I can confidently guarantee that nobody in the project breaks things just to make anybody else' life miserable, they usually have much better reasons than that -- for instance that they want to make FreeBSD a better, cleaner and leaner operating system, instead of the amalgamated union of an endless sequence of backwards compatible hacks and wrappers which prevent progress from happening on timescales shorter than decades. Poul-Henning [*] This was a trick question: phkmalloc has exposed several problems which were potential security issues, most recently in libz. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 16:10:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC48937B404 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0092.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.92] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FNR0-0004v2-00; Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:09:51 -0700 Message-ID: <3CFD489C.D45F2ADE@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:09:16 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bakul Shah Cc: Will Andrews , Kris Kennaway , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Avoiding unnecessary breakage (was Re: Removing wait union) References: <200206041752.NAA08182@rodney.cnchost.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bakul Shah wrote: > Another possibility is to figure out a way to not cause so > much bit rot in the first place. Let me explain. [ ... ] > So there is usually a group (or an individual) commited > maintaining compatibility. Breaking interfaces is not prohibited > but it is not taken lightly. [ ... ] I think that I can safely characterize this as my "option #3", where the changes are vetted by "vetting committee"/Kris/software. I think this instantaneously creates a bottleneck. The emergent properties of this bottleneck are undesirable, even if the intent, to avoid breakage, is desirable. > Leaving such decisions solely upto developers doesn't work > because developers have their own agenda (which is frequently > at cross purposes with each others', and with the groups' > goals). I think Kris would probably agree with this. 8-). I do. > In my view having an active architecture group that is > responsibile for user/system interfaces would help > tremendously. In order for it to be effective it needs > people who have developers' respect for their judgement, > experience and technical skills. They need to be persuasive > and tough enough to help convince developers to work toward a > common goal. I'd agree with an architecture group, but I think the powers you want to grant are perhaps to far-reaching. Already, the mere existance of a tiered structure of core team, committers, the unwashed masses, is externally seen as being non-egalitarian in the extreme. There are also some intrinsic properties of such a system. The political analogs are super powers, the members of the "nuclear club", the unwashed masses; the economic analogy is first world nations (the G-8), second world nations, and the unwashed masses. The business version is executives. middle manage, the unwashed masses. The overriding intrisic property is that such systems are tier exclusionary, and they are self-perpetuating. Adding another tier of management is probably not the answer ("Welcome to the Star Chamber"). > Another mechanism idea to add to your list (I think > someone may have already mentioned it): > > - create an index of which ports use what include files, > what system/library calls etc. If an interface needs to be > changed the developer can quickly find out what ports will > be affected. If the developer were forced to fix these > ports before allowed to commit an interface change, most > people will think harder about changes! Actually, that was me that already mentioned this one; it was in the context of the "making BSD make into GNU make" thread. This is antithetical to the use of "automake/autoconf/configure" used by many ports. It's much closer to the "imake/xmkmf" way of abstracting system differences as a list of manifest constants. It's not that this approach won't work, it's that responsibility for compliance is pushed off onto the third party code maintainers; you are effectively telling them not to use certain tools that work perfectly fine for them on their single OS environment, and which help in making ports of their code -- at the expense of making the code itself less portable. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 16:12: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6767437B401 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0092.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.92] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FNSt-0007UT-00; Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:11:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3CFD4912.26C043B@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:11:14 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garrett Wollman Cc: brian@Awfulhak.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Avoiding unnecessary breakage (was Re: Removing wait union) References: <200206041752.NAA08182@rodney.cnchost.com> <200206042130.g54LUijN025978@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Garrett Wollman wrote: > In article <20020604222022.6f935871.brian@Awfulhak.org> you write: > >Many software vendors would say that a published interface can only be > >removed after two major releases of the software. > > By that measure, `union wait' has been deprecated to the extent of not > being documented for almost ten years. 4.4-Lite only documented the > Standard interface. I think tha it has not been published that it was deprecated, and that Brian's point is not being taken correctly here. Saying that somthing is not going to be there in the future is very different fron not saying that it will be. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 16:13:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from espresso.q9media.com (espresso.q9media.com [216.254.138.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D6B037B407 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mike@localhost) by espresso.q9media.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g54N8DR42084; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:08:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:08:13 -0400 From: Mike Barcroft To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Bruce Evans , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing wait union Message-ID: <20020604190813.D98086@espresso.q9media.com> References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603190818.E16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020604140957.A63493@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020604140957.A63493@xor.obsecurity.org>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 02:09:57PM -0700 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway writes: > 19 ports failed, and 3152+465 port builds were attempted. Assuming > the same percentage of the rest will fail that comes to around 36 > ports failing out of 7000 in the collection. > > I'd be happy with the patch going in as long as someone commits to > fixing them. I think is currently C++ unsafe, so it's likely that the C++ breakage isn't hiding additional bugs. As a side effect, I believe this patch fixes C++, though I haven't checked. I'm willing to investigate the ports that break, if you can provide a list. Best regards, Mike Barcroft To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 16:26:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from espresso.q9media.com (espresso.q9media.com [216.254.138.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A92D37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mike@localhost) by espresso.q9media.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g54NIvr42526; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:18:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:18:57 -0400 From: Mike Barcroft To: Brian Somers Cc: Garance A Drosihn , bakul@bitblocks.com, tlambert2@mindspring.com, will@csociety.org, kris@obsecurity.org, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Avoiding unnecessary breakage (was Re: Removing wait union) Message-ID: <20020604191857.E98086@espresso.q9media.com> References: <200206041752.NAA08182@rodney.cnchost.com> <20020604222022.6f935871.brian@Awfulhak.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020604222022.6f935871.brian@Awfulhak.org>; from brian@Awfulhak.org on Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 10:20:22PM +0100 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Somers writes: > Many software vendors would say that a published interface can only be > removed after two major releases of the software. The first major > release should suggest that the interface is depricated and should no > longer be used (the documentation should probably suggest the (new?) > alternatives too). The following release can then remove the interface. > While this is painful for the developer, it's necessary for any API > provider in order to provide a *viable* platform for building upon. > > Personally, I think FreeBSD should adopt such a strategy. We did. I added it to the Committers Guide a while ago. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/committers-guide/rules.html#AEN1068 Best regards, Mike Barcroft To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 16:27:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.22.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1933837B406 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g54NRBI8521348; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:27:11 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020604222022.6f935871.brian@Awfulhak.org> References: <200206041752.NAA08182@rodney.cnchost.com> <20020604222022.6f935871.brian@Awfulhak.org> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:27:10 -0400 To: Brian Somers From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Avoiding unnecessary breakage (was Re: Removing wait union) Cc: bakul@bitblocks.com, tlambert2@mindspring.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.3 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:20 PM +0100 6/4/02, Brian Somers wrote: >On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > > I hope this is not sounding too sarcastic, because I do agree >> with the general idea that we should "avoid unnecessary breakage". >> It is pretty easy to say that, but it is hard to actually do it, >> while still moving the operating system forward. > >Many software vendors would say that a published interface >can only be removed after two major releases of the software. >[...] > >Personally, I think FreeBSD should adopt such a strategy. Note that there *is* some attempt to do that, for many of the changes we do. That effort, when it happens, still does not protect us from annoying people with "disruptive" changes. Note, for instance, that the issue which triggered this thread was the removal of 'union wait'. Mike Barcroft wrote some updates to lpr to handle the complete removal of that. At first I was a little uneasy about completely removing it, but it turns out that freebsd *started* to depreciate that union a long time ago. I found that I can compile the 'union-wait-less' changes on freebsd 3.5.1 (the oldest snapshot I still have running). And if you look at: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/sys/sys/wait.h it seems like 'union wait' has been depreciated since 1994! And yet here we have people all a flutter about how we are making an incompatible change and we might be breaking ports. At the same time, it is true that lpr has sat there happily using that depreciated interface for EIGHT YEARS, until Mike forced the issue by being willing to actually remove the union from wait.h. And that's for a program which is part of the base freebsd image! That's what I mean by saying "it's easier to say than to do". If eight years is not long enough to convert applications, then how long are we supposed to go? No matter what you do, the fact remains that some people (particularly 3rd-party apps) will not change their source code until you force them to -- and the moment you *do* force them then you'll get a thread about "freebsd developers should avoid unnecessary breakage!". - - - - But again, despite all my passion at defending the 'union wait' change, it's also painfully obvious that freebsd has seen other changes which have not had a nice smooth transition. In the above I coyly said that the 'union-wait-less' *changes* can compile on freebsd 3.5.1. That is all well and good, but the full story is that present version of lpr can *not* compile on 3.5.1, because of the way the INET6 changes where handled. So, in short (who? me? short?), I think there are changes where FreeBSD does a good job at trying to soften the transition -- and that we do not give ourselves enough credit when we do that. At the same time, there are other changes which are more abrupt, but sometimes the abrupt change is done because mapping a smooth transition will require a great deal more work. And with a volunteer group, it isn't always easy to find people who are willing to do that extra work. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 16:30:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-56.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04E7937B401; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 87F5766C49; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:30:38 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Mike Barcroft Cc: Kris Kennaway , Bruce Evans , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Removing wait union Message-ID: <20020604163038.A67053@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603190818.E16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020604140957.A63493@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020604190813.D98086@espresso.q9media.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020604190813.D98086@espresso.q9media.com>; from mike@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:08:13PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:08:13PM -0400, Mike Barcroft wrote: > Kris Kennaway writes: > > 19 ports failed, and 3152+465 port builds were attempted. Assuming > > the same percentage of the rest will fail that comes to around 36 > > ports failing out of 7000 in the collection. > >=20 > > I'd be happy with the patch going in as long as someone commits to > > fixing them. >=20 > I think is currently C++ unsafe, so it's likely that the > C++ breakage isn't hiding additional bugs. As a side effect, I > believe this patch fixes C++, though I haven't checked. >=20 > I'm willing to investigate the ports that break, if you can provide a > list. These are the ports which built on the last 5.0 run the other day but failed this time around. There are others hidden by dependencies which fail to build; I can give you an updated list once things like XFree86 and C++ include directories get fixed. +./44bsd-csh-20001106.log +./fep-1.0.log +./ile-2.0_1.log +./ja-tcl-7.6.log +./mailx-0.5.log +./ncftp1-1.9.5.log +./ngspice_rework-14.log +./nntp-1.5.12.2_1.log +./nntpbtr-1.7.log +./oases-2.2.log +./pmake-2.1.33.log +./rmsg-1.64.log +./scli-0.2.9.log +./sup-2.0.log +./tcl-8.0.5.log +./tn3270-4.4.log +./ttyrec-1.0.5.log +./zh-hztty-2.0.log Kris --pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE8/U2dWry0BWjoQKURAqjTAKCCs2qGh4X12/nOwXZCCgwcnwsFLQCfYJAP Vtes01xsml2p3sOS7tT/rzg= =jC6C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 16:32:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CD8137B400 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0092.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.92] helo=mindspring.com) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FNmM-0004gc-00; Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:31:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3CFD4DC8.6FF385F3@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:31:20 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Avoiding unnecessary breakage (was Re: Removing wait union) References: <41485.1023227781@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > One of the things which makes FreeBSD competitive, is our ability > to adapt to changing circumstances. I'd like to ask "competitive with what?". This is not intended as sarcasm, it's an honest question. To my mind, FreeBSD is losing ground to Linux in a number of areas. One of these areas is in published technical references. Linux has published technical references, and FreeBSD does not. While nearly anyone can write a book that purports to be a technical reference work, actually building a useful one is very difficult. It takes on the order of one man year. As skeptical as people might be about this, Linux has in fact had a number of *good* technical references written for it, and these books are not easily dismissed as "shallow fluff": they are *real* works, with *real* depth. I would go so far as to say that the Rubini/Corbet book "Linux Devices Drivers" is *excellent*. I'm going to argue that the reason these works have been able to be written is stabilization of interfaces over time. What are the *primary* arguments people have historically used when evangelizing BSD? o "BSD is more stable" o "BSD is more mature" o "BSD has a long history" o "BSD was developed by experts with lots of experience, who learned from the past" o "BSD doesn't suffer gratuitous changes gladly" None of these look like the moral equivalent of "turn on a dime". Yet here we are, arguing that it is flexibility that makes FreeBSD competitive... and it's *not* winning the competitions that matter. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 16:50:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D15337B404 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0092.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.92] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FO3y-0005bR-00; Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:50:07 -0700 Message-ID: <3CFD520C.38E2B992@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:49:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Brian Somers , bakul@bitblocks.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Avoiding unnecessary breakage (was Re: Removing wait union) References: <200206041752.NAA08182@rodney.cnchost.com> <20020604222022.6f935871.brian@Awfulhak.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Garance A Drosihn wrote: > At 10:20 PM +0100 6/4/02, Brian Somers wrote: > >Many software vendors would say that a published interface > >can only be removed after two major releases of the software. > >[...] > > > >Personally, I think FreeBSD should adopt such a strategy. > > Note that there *is* some attempt to do that, for many of the > changes we do. That effort, when it happens, still does not > protect us from annoying people with "disruptive" changes. Personally, I am all for disruptive changes, if they represent progress toward an agreed upon goal. > Note, for instance, that the issue which triggered this thread > was the removal of 'union wait'. Actually, it was the *proposal* to remove "union wait" that was the trigger. It was an entre into the larger issue of the acceptability of interface changes without "enviornmental impact statements". > it seems like 'union wait' has been depreciated since 1994! It has not been deprecated in the same way that "malloc.h" and "struct.h" and "values.h" have been deprecated. The deprecation has been comparatively very silent. > And yet here we have people all a flutter about how we are > making an incompatible change and we might be breaking ports. I picked the subject carefully: "Avoiding unnecessary breakage". As I said above: Personally, I am all for disruptive changes, if they represent progress toward an agreed upon goal. In other words "Embrace necessary breakage". > So, in short (who? me? short?), I think there are changes where > FreeBSD does a good job at trying to soften the transition -- > and that we do not give ourselves enough credit when we do that. > At the same time, there are other changes which are more abrupt, > but sometimes the abrupt change is done because mapping a smooth > transition will require a great deal more work. And with a > volunteer group, it isn't always easy to find people who are > willing to do that extra work. Historically, this has been David Greenman's job, as Architect. When David efectively deactivated himself, as outside events ate more and more of his time, the project has suffered. I don't think there is a simple fix; maybe I'm wrong: I'd like to be, in this case. Raising awareness is short-term helpful: I think there are a lot more people who are now considering the larger consequences of the changes they would like to make. On the other hand, I have yet to see one case of an epidemic that was cured solely by way of better education. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 17:51:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from renown.cnchost.com (renown.concentric.net [207.155.248.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F2A37B405 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitblocks.com (adsl-209-204-185-216.sonic.net [209.204.185.216]) by renown.cnchost.com id UAA07971; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 20:51:16 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-ID: <200206050051.UAA07971@renown.cnchost.com> To: Garance A Drosihn , Terry Lambert , Brian Somers , Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Will Andrews , Kris Kennaway , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Avoiding unnecessary breakage (was Re: Removing wait union) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 2002 14:34:34 EDT." Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 17:51:14 -0700 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Executive summary at the end] > >Most systems companies understand the software they sell (and > >around which their customers and 3rd party vendors add much > >more software) exists to solve customers' problems and > >breaking interfaces DOES NOT help that cause. ... > > Most system companies who SELL software are also PAYING their > employees to work on that software. Yes, paying makes it relatively easy to make people work toward a common goal. In a volunteer organization this is much harder but not impossible. You do need a leader (or leaders) to articulate the common theme and you also need someone to help people move toward a common goal. > Note that some of the changes we are talking about are being > done to conform to standards. It isn't just "random bit rot", I am *not* suggesting people are making changes for the sake of changes. What I am suggesting is that the common theme of "making the customers' life easy" is either missing or there is no agreement about just who the customer is. So what is "right" at a micro level can some time end up creating more pain at a macro level. What is "right" technically can also end up being a royal pain to fix. I am ambivalent about "standards". If conforming to a published standard breaks a lot of things, I'd say that is a bad standard and I wouldn't go out of my way to meet it. > I hope this is not sounding too sarcastic, because I do agree > with the general idea that we should "avoid unnecessary breakage". > It is pretty easy to say that, but it is hard to actually do it, > while still moving the operating system forward. No disagreement here. Brian Somers writes: > Many software vendors would say that a published interface can only be > removed after two major releases of the software. The first major > release should suggest that the interface is depricated and should no > longer be used (the documentation should probably suggest the (new?) > alternatives too). The following release can then remove the interface. > While this is painful for the developer, it's necessary for any API > provider in order to provide a *viable* platform for building upon. Right idea but I am not too keen on such hard and fast rules. The issue is sticking to rules and self-policing just doesn't work for most people. > Whilst it would also be nice to have an Architecture group that could > control this sort of thing, I don't think that's at all practical for > FreeBSD. I was thinking of an informal group where the *weight* of your opinion in the group is a function of how well other respect you and how well you continue making sense! But you may be right -- one needs a mix of email and face-to-face meetings to make this work. Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > The FreeBSD project is about doing things right, and in doing so > we expose other pieces of software which didn't do things right. The trouble is that X's idea of doing things right may not meet Y's. And X may change his mind a year later. "Right" is a judgement call. An example, moving an include file in another directory may be "right" but that just creates a lot of needless work for very little gain. This is different from fixing a bug that got exposed (as opposed to a behavior that broke due to a change in interface). Terry Lambert writes: > I think this instantaneously creates a bottleneck. The emergent > properties of this bottleneck are undesirable, even if the intent, > to avoid breakage, is desirable. > > > Leaving such decisions solely upto developers doesn't work > > because developers have their own agenda (which is frequently > > at cross purposes with each others', and with the groups' > > goals). > > I think Kris would probably agree with this. 8-). I do. The trouble is that if you don't leave such decisions to developers you need something else. > Adding another tier of management is probably not the answer > ("Welcome to the Star Chamber"). I'd say this would *be* the core group or its peer. It would consist of mostly technical wizards. You can call them stars if you want! But their role would be to create excitement, set and explain guidelines and enforce them by mentoring, cajoling, and so on. and facilitate the evolution process. > > - create an index of which ports use what include files, > > what system/library calls etc. If an interface needs to be > > changed the developer can quickly find out what ports will > > be affected. If the developer were forced to fix these > > ports before allowed to commit an interface change, most > > people will think harder about changes! > It's not that this approach won't work, it's that responsibility > for compliance is pushed off onto the third party code maintainers; > you are effectively telling them not to use certain tools that work > perfectly fine for them on their single OS environment, and which > help in making ports of their code -- at the expense of making the > code itself less portable. I didn't explain well. I meant automatically running a simple tool like mkid or glimpse or global or something from the crontab once a week. There will be many false hits but at least it would be a start. > To my mind, FreeBSD is losing ground to Linux in a number of > areas. One of these areas is in published technical references. > Linux has published technical references, and FreeBSD does not. > I'm going to argue that the reason these works have been able > to be written is stabilization of interfaces over time. I'd have to agree. To summarize, The rate of change has been accelerating and it is becoming harder and harder to get 3rd party apps working or maintaining them in the working order. While many ports can be fixed by hard work, I think it is worth debating just what is "unnecessary" breakage and doing something about it. We need - some idea of just who the customers are - what the freebsd community goals are - a way to manage the os & ports growth *while* maintaining as much anarchy as possible. My defn of freebsd customers is _primarily_ the people who use it; not just its developers. But the volunteer developers also must get something back to want to work on FreeBSD. For that a common vision and excitement needs to be articulated and the process has to be such that fun far outweighs any grunge work. I am not against changes or even breakage, just "unnecessary" breakage! IMHO interface changes should be carefully vetted. Pros: - having to justify can force developers to think harder - frequently a better option suggests itself after a healthy discussion - tradeoffs are considered up front. - global goals are paid attention Cons: - such a vetting process can be a real bottleneck. - the weight of considering too many things will drive people away. - not easy to find people. I don't know if this can be made to work but I sure hope so! -- bakul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 19:14:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from espresso.q9media.com (espresso.q9media.com [216.254.138.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2672937B409 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mike@localhost) by espresso.q9media.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g552CBP51133; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:12:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:12:10 -0400 From: Mike Barcroft To: arch@FreeBSD.org Cc: Bruce Evans Subject: Re: Removing wait union Message-ID: <20020604221210.G98086@espresso.q9media.com> References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603190818.E16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020604140957.A63493@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020604190813.D98086@espresso.q9media.com> <20020604163038.A67053@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020604163038.A67053@xor.obsecurity.org>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 04:30:38PM -0700 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway writes: > These are the ports which built on the last 5.0 run the other day but > failed this time around. There are others hidden by dependencies > which fail to build; I can give you an updated list once things like > XFree86 and C++ include directories get fixed. [...] For anyone watching this thread, I just sent Kris 15 patches for these ports. Most uses were far more trivial than in the base system. Best regards, Mike Barcroft To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 19:26:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from espresso.q9media.com (espresso.q9media.com [216.254.138.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FC337B407; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mike@localhost) by espresso.q9media.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g552O9f51716; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:24:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:24:09 -0400 From: Mike Barcroft To: Garrett Wollman Cc: olgeni@uli.it, qa@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sysinstall, time zone selection and /etc/X11 Message-ID: <20020604222409.H98086@espresso.q9media.com> References: <20020604214716.W63192-100000@olgeni.olgeni> <200206042033.g54KXQ36025588@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200206042033.g54KXQ36025588@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu>; from wollman@lcs.mit.edu on Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 04:33:26PM -0400 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Garrett Wollman writes: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > In article <20020604214716.W63192-100000@olgeni.olgeni> you write: > > >Just nitpicking... maybe the "Does the XXX abbreviation look > >reasonable" dialog box should be a character taller, so the separator > >will not bump into the text line =) > > Actually, it should say something like: > > Based on your current system time and the timezone > you just selected, the time is now: > > Tue Jun 4 16:27:40 EDT 2002 > > [OK] [Try another timezone] [Change system time] > > Originally, tzsetup would try to display the date, and ask if it > looked correct, but it frequently got it wrong (particularly when the > `wall CMOS' option was selected) and even more frequently confused > users who had misadjusted clocks. > > If anyone wants to fix this, I have no proprietary feelings whatsoever > towards `tzsetup'. It would be really neat if you could also sync to a time server at this point. Best regards, Mike Barcroft To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 19:50:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9983437B400; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0326.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.71] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FQsf-0002U1-00; Tue, 04 Jun 2002 19:50:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3CFD7C5B.78C330C@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 19:50:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Barcroft Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, Bruce Evans Subject: Re: Removing wait union References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603190818.E16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020604140957.A63493@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020604190813.D98086@espresso.q9media.com> <20020604163038.A67053@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020604221210.G98086@espresso.q9media.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Barcroft wrote: > Kris Kennaway writes: > > These are the ports which built on the last 5.0 run the other day but > > failed this time around. There are others hidden by dependencies > > which fail to build; I can give you an updated list once things like > > XFree86 and C++ include directories get fixed. > [...] > > For anyone watching this thread, I just sent Kris 15 patches for these > ports. Most uses were far more trivial than in the base system. Ugh. You are as bad as Alfred. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 19:51:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.22.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C88A37B406 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g552pLI8108760; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:51:22 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200206050051.UAA07971@renown.cnchost.com> References: <200206050051.UAA07971@renown.cnchost.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:51:20 -0400 To: Bakul Shah From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Avoiding unnecessary breakage (was Re: Removing wait union) Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.3 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 5:51 PM -0700 6/4/02, Bakul Shah wrote: > > Note that some of the changes we are talking about are being >> done to conform to standards. It isn't just "random bit rot", > >I am *not* suggesting people are making changes for the sake >of changes. What I am suggesting is that the common theme of >"making the customers' life easy" is either missing or there >is no agreement about just who the customer is. I should have added a bit more background in my previous message, so that what I was saying would make a bit more sense... I'm a relatively new committer to freebsd (IMO, at least). When I was learning the ropes, I did have several other committers who made a point of stating (to me) that incompatible changes had to be eased into the system. Thus, I do believe that there is some agreement on how such changes should be handled. It's even in the committers guide, iirc. If anyone *asks* how should such-and-such be changed, there is often much advice given on how to ease the change in. That's what is happening with the 'union wait' change, for instance. Kris *is* offering to do a ports-build to find most of the ports which would break, before the actual change is made. Mike *did* write up patches for all of the base-system things which would need to change, before making the major change. That's really the point I wanted to make. Sometimes we (as a project) *are* trying to do a good job, but we're so upset about "those other changes" that we don't give people credit when developers do make the extra effort to ease a change into place. If you want to make changes in a group of volunteers, then I think you need to encourage and commend the behavior you're looking for. I think that works better than proposing new rules, regulations, and bureaucracy to abolish the behavior that is troubling. >Brian Somers writes: > > Many software vendors would say that a published interface > > can only be removed after two major releases of the software. > >Right idea but I am not too keen on such hard and fast rules. >The issue is sticking to rules and self-policing just doesn't >work for most people. Aside: I would also say that I feel that "two major releases" might be a bit too painful for changes in the freebsd project, if you're talking about major releases being 3.0 vs 4.0. We have people who don't stay as active developers for the length of time it takes FreeBSD to make it thru two major releases... -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 19:57:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E97E637B405; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g552vrRs037143; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:57:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g552vr7b037142; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:57:53 -0700 From: Steve Kargl To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mike Barcroft , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, Bruce Evans Subject: Re: Removing wait union Message-ID: <20020604195753.A37116@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603190818.E16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020604140957.A63493@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020604190813.D98086@espresso.q9media.com> <20020604163038.A67053@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020604221210.G98086@espresso.q9media.com> <3CFD7C5B.78C330C@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CFD7C5B.78C330C@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:50:03PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:50:03PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Mike Barcroft wrote: > > Kris Kennaway writes: > > > These are the ports which built on the last 5.0 run the other day but > > > failed this time around. There are others hidden by dependencies > > > which fail to build; I can give you an updated list once things like > > > XFree86 and C++ include directories get fixed. > > [...] > > > > For anyone watching this thread, I just sent Kris 15 patches for these > > ports. Most uses were far more trivial than in the base system. > > Ugh. You are as bad as Alfred. > In what respect? At least Mike has supplied Kris some fixes for problems while all you supply is commentary on terryBSD. -- Steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 20:16:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBD4A37B40D; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 20:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 7E736AE147; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 20:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 20:15:59 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mike Barcroft , arch@FreeBSD.org, Bruce Evans Subject: Re: Removing wait union Message-ID: <20020605031559.GC88163@elvis.mu.org> References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603190818.E16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020604140957.A63493@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020604190813.D98086@espresso.q9media.com> <20020604163038.A67053@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020604221210.G98086@espresso.q9media.com> <3CFD7C5B.78C330C@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CFD7C5B.78C330C@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Terry Lambert [020604 19:50] wrote: > Mike Barcroft wrote: > > Kris Kennaway writes: > > > These are the ports which built on the last 5.0 run the other day but > > > failed this time around. There are others hidden by dependencies > > > which fail to build; I can give you an updated list once things like > > > XFree86 and C++ include directories get fixed. > > [...] > > > > For anyone watching this thread, I just sent Kris 15 patches for these > > ports. Most uses were far more trivial than in the base system. > > Ugh. You are as bad as Alfred. heh, *clang* stupid *clang* round *smash* peg *bang* and *crunch* stupid *smash* square *whack* hole *thunk* !!! -- -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 4 21: 8:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4EFD37B400; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 21:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0326.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.71] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FS5a-00033t-00; Tue, 04 Jun 2002 21:08:02 -0700 Message-ID: <3CFD8E79.A5FA9A88@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 21:07:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Kargl Cc: Mike Barcroft , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, Bruce Evans Subject: Re: Removing wait union References: <20020602010108.B16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020603011903.Y2566-100000@gamplex.bde.org> <20020603190818.E16166@espresso.q9media.com> <20020604140957.A63493@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020604190813.D98086@espresso.q9media.com> <20020604163038.A67053@xor.obsecurity.org> <20020604221210.G98086@espresso.q9media.com> <3CFD7C5B.78C330C@mindspring.com> <20020604195753.A37116@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Steve Kargl wrote: > On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 07:50:03PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Mike Barcroft wrote: > > > For anyone watching this thread, I just sent Kris 15 patches for these > > > ports. Most uses were far more trivial than in the base system. > > > > Ugh. You are as bad as Alfred. > > In what respect? In supplying large numbers of patches quickly. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 5 11:25: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from Awfulhak.org (gw.Awfulhak.org [217.204.245.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D6B37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org [IPv6:fec0::1:12]) by Awfulhak.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g55IOXKZ009791; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:24:33 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost [IPv6:::1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id g55IOUh0025159; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:24:30 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:24:30 +0100 From: Brian Somers To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: bakul@bitblocks.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Avoiding unnecessary breakage (was Re: Removing wait union) Message-Id: <20020605192430.1f29c8d2.brian@Awfulhak.org> In-Reply-To: References: <200206050051.UAA07971@renown.cnchost.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.5claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:51:20 -0400, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > >Brian Somers writes: > > > Many software vendors would say that a published interface > > > can only be removed after two major releases of the software. > > > >Right idea but I am not too keen on such hard and fast rules. > >The issue is sticking to rules and self-policing just doesn't > >work for most people. > > Aside: I would also say that I feel that "two major releases" > might be a bit too painful for changes in the freebsd project, > if you're talking about major releases being 3.0 vs 4.0. We > have people who don't stay as active developers for the length > of time it takes FreeBSD to make it thru two major releases... Well, if developers don't hang around long enough to see their changes through to completion, that's our (FreeBSD's) problem. We can't push the problem onto the users of our platform. A company that develops software doesn't expect to have to employ software engineers (to redevelop their software) for an OS upgrade - an OS upgrade that we're essentially forcing on them because of our frequent releases and our inability to support all but the latest of those releases. > -- > Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu > Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org > Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 5 14:37:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.22.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65FD737B400 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g55LbOeK069840; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 17:37:25 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020605192430.1f29c8d2.brian@Awfulhak.org> References: <200206050051.UAA07971@renown.cnchost.com> <20020605192430.1f29c8d2.brian@Awfulhak.org> Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 17:37:23 -0400 To: Brian Somers From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Avoiding unnecessary breakage (was Re: Removing wait union) Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.3 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 7:24 PM +0100 6/5/02, Brian Somers wrote: >On Tue, 4 Jun 2002, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > > Aside: I would also say that I feel that "two major releases" >> might be a bit too painful for changes in the freebsd project, > > if you're talking about major releases being 3.0 vs 4.0. > >A company that develops software doesn't expect to have to >employ software engineers (to redevelop their software) for >an OS upgrade - an OS upgrade that we're essentially forcing >on them because of our frequent releases and our inability >to support all but the latest of those releases. I agree that we could do a better job of smoothing in the transition of some incompatible changes. But it is my feeling that "major releases" are probably not the best way to set the timescale for those transitions. 2.0 -> 3.0 took four years, 3.0 -> 4.0 took a little less than two years, and it looks like 4.0 -> 5.0 will take more than two and a half years. That rule would imply that if we decide right now to make an incompatible change, then we couldn't stop supporting "the old way" for at least four years (ie, for two major releases). I agree would be very fine thing to do for our users, but realistically I think that is *much* too big a job for us (as a project) to commit to. I am not sure what a good measure would be. Maybe "four official releases" (ie, four of the .1 releases). Maybe "one major and one minor release". Maybe just "two years worth of releases". I don't know what would work best. But we should set it to something that we really can achieve as a volunteer project, and something we would expect to apply to the *entire* project, consistently. There isn't any point in setting some target which sounds good as a marketting claim, but which we would never actually live up to. Note that as a customer of freebsd, the oldest release I have running in production is 4.2, and I'm getting uneasy about how old that is. As a developer, I also have a 3.5.1 system that I can boot up in vmware. If you talk about supporting anything older than that, then you've crossed the line for how much work I'm willing to do for this project. Well, I've probably rambled on too long about this, without really coming up with any good solution. Just some observations and my opinions. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 5 15:27:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mrout2.yahoo.com (mrout2.yahoo.com [216.145.54.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E3A337B403; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 15:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zoot.corp.yahoo.com (zoot.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.52.89]) by mrout2.yahoo.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/y.out) with ESMTP id g55MRlR66702; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 15:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (dougb@localhost) by zoot.corp.yahoo.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id g55MRlZ4089687; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 15:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 15:27:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, Subject: Re: Removing perl usage from mergemaster In-Reply-To: <20020605214512.GA16384@hades.hell.gr> Message-ID: <20020605151842.V89686-100000@zoot.corp.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ I'm replacing -hackers with -arch for reasons that are clear below. ] On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > Hello dougb & all, > > Here's a patch that removes all trails of Perl usage from mergemaster. Your work looks good, but I wish you'd asked before embarking on it. My current plan is actually to import netbsd's stat(1), which will solve this problem very neatly. I was hoping to do it sooner than now, but some family business, and a dead hard drive interfered with that plan. I am reasonably sure that I can get to it tonight. NetBSD's stat(1) is very feature rich, compiles cleanly on -current, and handled all the stuff I threw at it in semi-rigorous testing. I can't imagine anyone objecting to the import, but here's your chance. Meanwhile, my apologies to those -current users who've been inconvenienced.... somewhate ironic considering my enthusiastic campaigning to get rid of perl in the base. Mea culpa. Doug -- "We have known freedom's price. We have shown freedom's power. And in this great conflict, ... we will see freedom's victory." - George W. Bush, President of the United States State of the Union, January 28, 2002 Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 5 15:33:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A19B37B405; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 15:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b140.otenet.gr [212.205.244.148]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g55MXF7Y021969; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 01:33:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g55MXEaq023641; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 01:33:14 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g55MXD0g023640; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 01:33:13 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.org) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 01:33:13 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Doug Barton Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Removing perl usage from mergemaster Message-ID: <20020605223313.GA23579@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020605214512.GA16384@hades.hell.gr> <20020605151842.V89686-100000@zoot.corp.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020605151842.V89686-100000@zoot.corp.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2002-06-05 15:27 -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > Hello dougb & all, > > > > Here's a patch that removes all trails of Perl usage from mergemaster. > > Your work looks good, but I wish you'd asked before embarking on it. My > current plan is actually to import netbsd's stat(1), which will solve this > problem very neatly. I was hoping to do it sooner than now, but some > family business, and a dead hard drive interfered with that plan. I am > reasonably sure that I can get to it tonight. Nevermind. Nobody's pushing things. Whenever you feel like it, and stat's on its way to our tree, let me know if I can help with mergemaster & the removal of perl. > NetBSD's stat(1) is very feature rich, compiles cleanly on -current, and > handled all the stuff I threw at it in semi-rigorous testing. I can't > imagine anyone objecting to the import, but here's your chance. Nah. No direct src/ stuff for me, except for the occasional manpage fix. I'll probably wait until NetBSD's stat is imported, and retry. In the meantime, I'll try to test NetBSD's stat, or even come up with a few regression tests for NetBSD's stat. jmallett seems to like adding such things to our tree. Then perhaps, after stat is tested, we can re-hack mergemaster ;) Giorgos. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 5 15:46:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE54337B405; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 15:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0350.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.95] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FjXi-0004Mf-00; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 15:46:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3CFE9494.4407AD32@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 15:45:40 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Removing perl usage from mergemaster References: <20020605151842.V89686-100000@zoot.corp.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Barton wrote: > On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > Here's a patch that removes all trails of Perl usage from mergemaster. > > Your work looks good, but I wish you'd asked before embarking on it. My > current plan is actually to import netbsd's stat(1), which will solve this > problem very neatly. I was hoping to do it sooner than now, but some > family business, and a dead hard drive interfered with that plan. I am > reasonably sure that I can get to it tonight. If all it did was motivate you to do the patch sooner than you would have, then it was worthwhile. ;^). If on the other hand, you want to wait so that you aren't rushed, there's really no reason to not commit his code in the interim, as an interim fix that you will later replace with "stat(1)". Either way, it's all nice work. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 6 10:11:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D3C37B406; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g56HB5Jn089092; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:11:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g56HB5tG089091; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:11:05 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Doug Barton Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Removing perl usage from mergemaster Message-ID: <20020606101105.E59829@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.org References: <20020605214512.GA16384@hades.hell.gr> <20020605151842.V89686-100000@zoot.corp.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020605151842.V89686-100000@zoot.corp.yahoo.com>; from DougB@FreeBSD.org on Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 03:27:47PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 03:27:47PM -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > Hello dougb & all, > > Here's a patch that removes all trails of Perl usage from mergemaster. > > Your work looks good, but I wish you'd asked before embarking on it. My > current plan is actually to import netbsd's stat(1), which will solve this Doug, mergemaster has been "broken" for almost a month now due to its use of perl. This is tool long for such an important tool. I would like to commit this patch now as a band-aid solution -- with full expectation you will back it out once stat(1) is ready. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 6 10:16:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD86937B400 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g56HGSJn089170; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:16:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g56HGREQ089169; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:16:27 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Brian Somers , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Avoiding unnecessary breakage (was Re: Removing wait union) Message-ID: <20020606101627.G59829@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mail-Followup-To: David O'Brien , Garance A Drosihn , Brian Somers , arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200206050051.UAA07971@renown.cnchost.com> <20020605192430.1f29c8d2.brian@Awfulhak.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from drosih@rpi.edu on Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 05:37:23PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 05:37:23PM -0400, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > I agree that we could do a better job of smoothing in the > transition of some incompatible changes. But it is my feeling > that "major releases" are probably not the best way to set the > timescale for those transitions. 2.0 -> 3.0 took four years, "major releases" in the version 2 days were X.Y. Thus you need to compaire 2.0[.0]->2.1.0->2.2.0->3.0. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 7 9:35:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail15.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.215]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ABE837B404 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 544 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2002 16:35:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail15.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 7 Jun 2002 16:35:39 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g57GZbF65998 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:35:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:35:31 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: KTRACE genio trace question Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'd like to get some feedback on proposing a change to the ktrace behavior for I/O trace events. Currently for an I/O trace, we store all of the contents of the I/O to the trace file. We used to do this by malloc'ing a buffer tha we copyin'd all the data to that was then written out along with the ktrace header in one VOP_WRITE. green changed this in revision 1.37 of kern_ktrace.c to instead use a copy of the original uio and split the write operation into two VOP_WRITE's. However, this can result in a corrupt tracefile if the first VOP_WRITE succeeds but the second one fails. Also, since we defer the copyin() until the VOP_WRITE, the actual VOP_WRITE needs to be done by the original thread requiring ugly synchronization between the ktrace worker thread and the thread submitting a trace request. The reason for green's change was to prevent DoS attacks from users doing a ktrace of a program doing very large I/O operations. I would like to avoid the DoS while rectifying the problems mentioned above. What I would like to do is change the behavior of I/O trace events to go back to doing the copyin() before the VOP_WRITE(), but to set a max limit on the amount of data we will output in the trace. This limit would probably default to a single page and could be a loader tunable and sysctl. This would allow us to get rid of the need for synchronous ktrace events cleaning up the ktrace code a bit. It would also go back to using a single VOP_WRITE for all of the the I/O. Thoughts? -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 7 10:24: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBFA537B403; Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id AD2BCAE2AC; Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:23:57 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: John Baldwin Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: KTRACE genio trace question Message-ID: <20020607172357.GS88163@elvis.mu.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * John Baldwin [020607 09:35] wrote: > > What I would like to do is change the behavior of I/O trace events to > go back to doing the copyin() before the VOP_WRITE(), but to set a max > limit on the amount of data we will output in the trace. This limit > would probably default to a single page and could be a loader tunable > and sysctl. This would allow us to get rid of the need for synchronous > ktrace events cleaning up the ktrace code a bit. It would also go back > to using a single VOP_WRITE for all of the the I/O. Thoughts? That sounds reasonable. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 7 11:19: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3F037B404; Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0425.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.170] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GOKH-0001LL-00; Fri, 07 Jun 2002 11:19:05 -0700 Message-ID: <3D00F8F6.D020EB53@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 11:18:30 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: KTRACE genio trace question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin wrote: > green changed this in revision 1.37 of kern_ktrace.c to instead > use a copy of the original uio and split the write operation into > two VOP_WRITE's. However, this can result in a corrupt tracefile if > the first VOP_WRITE succeeds but the second one fails. Under what circumstances is this possible, such that the original code would *not* have also failed on the second loop through the uiomove code? > Also, since we defer the copyin() until the VOP_WRITE, the actual > VOP_WRITE needs to be done by the original thread requiring ugly > synchronization between the ktrace worker thread and the thread > submitting a trace request. I don't understand this requirement; all threads in a thread group have identical references to the same address spaces. Therefore, as long as you have the correct process, you shouldn't care, right? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 7 12:34:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail16.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE67937B40B for ; Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 25728 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2002 19:34:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail16.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 7 Jun 2002 19:34:23 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g57JYMF66627; Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:34:22 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3D00F8F6.D020EB53@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 15:34:15 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: KTRACE genio trace question Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Jun-2002 Terry Lambert wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: >> green changed this in revision 1.37 of kern_ktrace.c to instead >> use a copy of the original uio and split the write operation into >> two VOP_WRITE's. However, this can result in a corrupt tracefile if >> the first VOP_WRITE succeeds but the second one fails. > > Under what circumstances is this possible, such that the original > code would *not* have also failed on the second loop through the > uiomove code? This has very little to do with the uiomove(), but imagine doing ktrace over NFS or some such and having the first write succeed but the second write fail. (Where these are the two VOP_WRITE's in ktr_writerequest()). >> Also, since we defer the copyin() until the VOP_WRITE, the actual >> VOP_WRITE needs to be done by the original thread requiring ugly >> synchronization between the ktrace worker thread and the thread >> submitting a trace request. > > I don't understand this requirement; all threads in a thread group > have identical references to the same address spaces. Therefore, > as long as you have the correct process, you shouldn't care, right? The point is it can't be done by the ktrace kernel process which has its own address space. Also, making the original thread do it keeps the original thread from returning and changing the data out from under you. (Aside from any already-existant userland races.) -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 8 2: 0:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from castle.jp.FreeBSD.org (castle.jp.FreeBSD.org [210.226.20.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D9F837B400 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 2002 02:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [::1]) by castle.jp.FreeBSD.org (8.11.6+3.4W/8.11.3) with ESMTP/inet6 id g5890pW43809 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 2002 18:00:51 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org) X-User-Agent: Mew/1.94.2 XEmacs/21.5 (bamboo) X-FaceAnim: (-O_O-)(O_O- )(_O- )(O- )(- -)( -O)( -O_)( -O_O)(-O_O-) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 52 From: Makoto Matsushita To: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Call for Review: more pristine environment for release build Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 18:00:49 +0900 Message-Id: <20020608180049M.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Current chroot sandbox inherits parent's environment variables. However, there is only 'PATH' environment variable which should be inherited from the parent. Since there are several _fixed_ directories to be listed in PATH, we can safely listed directories in static. Following patch enables that: * PATH list is set statically. * Use 'env -i' to eliminate parent environment variables when starting chroot(8) sandbox. Note: 1) '/sbin' should be listed in PATH (/sbin/{u,}mount will be there). I don't know about '/usr/sbin', but it is safe for us IMHO. 2) 'chroot' should be full-path, since /bin/sh's default PATH is "/bin:/usr/bin"; without full-path, env can't start chroot. If there are no problems, I'll commit it later (maybe several days after or so). Any comments, suggestions, and objections are welcome. Thanks in advance, -- - Makoto `MAR' Matsushita Index: Makefile =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/release/Makefile,v retrieving revision 1.686 diff -u -r1.686 Makefile --- Makefile 8 Jun 2002 03:15:50 -0000 1.686 +++ Makefile 8 Jun 2002 08:44:07 -0000 @@ -392,7 +392,7 @@ .endif # Don't remove this, or the build will fall over! echo "export RELEASEDIR=${_R}" >> ${CHROOTDIR}/mk - echo "export PATH=$${PATH}:${LOCALDIR}" >> ${CHROOTDIR}/mk + echo "export PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin:${LOCALDIR}" >> ${CHROOTDIR}/mk echo "export TMPDIR=/tmp" >> ${CHROOTDIR}/mk echo "export MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX=/usr/obj" >> ${CHROOTDIR}/mk echo "export MANBUILDCAT=YES" >> ${CHROOTDIR}/mk @@ -406,7 +406,7 @@ echo "make \$${_RELTARGET}" >> ${CHROOTDIR}/mk echo "echo \">>> make ${.TARGET} for ${TARGET} finished on \`LC_ALL=C TZ=GMT date\`\"" >> ${CHROOTDIR}/mk chmod 755 ${CHROOTDIR}/mk - chroot ${CHROOTDIR} /mk + env -i /usr/sbin/chroot ${CHROOTDIR} /mk clean: rm -rf boot_crunch release.[0-9] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 8 18: 4:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from espresso.q9media.com (espresso.q9media.com [216.254.138.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0B5137B404 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 2002 18:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mike@localhost) by espresso.q9media.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g5911xF06852 for arch@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 8 Jun 2002 21:01:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mike) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 21:01:59 -0400 From: Mike Barcroft To: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Standardized make options (or no doesn't always mean no) Message-ID: <20020608210159.B87326@espresso.q9media.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Organization: The FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is anyone planning to do something about the hugely confusing state of NO/NO_ options? I can never remember which options have an underscore after the NO, so I end up writing commands like `make kernel ... NO_KERNELCLEAN=true NOKERNELCLEAN=true'. It would very nice if we could standardize this and add some compatibility shims for historical spellings. Best regards, Mike Barcroft To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 8 18:10:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay1.yahoo.com (mail-relay1.yahoo.com [216.145.48.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E62537B401; Sat, 8 Jun 2002 18:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FreeBSD.org (12-234-90-219.client.attbi.com [12.234.90.219]) by mail-relay1.yahoo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 991B68B5B1; Sat, 8 Jun 2002 18:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D02AB11.F373AB4@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 18:10:41 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Barcroft Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Standardized make options (or no doesn't always mean no) References: <20020608210159.B87326@espresso.q9media.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Barcroft wrote: > > Is anyone planning to do something about the hugely confusing state of > NO/NO_ options? I can never remember which options have an underscore > after the NO, so I end up writing commands like > `make kernel ... NO_KERNELCLEAN=true NOKERNELCLEAN=true'. It would > very nice if we could standardize this and add some compatibility > shims for historical spellings. In the past versions of this conversation, the general agreement is that going forward we should probably standardize on underscores to seperate words. So, NO_FOO rather than NOFOO. However, no_volunteer has come forward to do the work you've described, so if you're volunteering.... :) -- "We have known freedom's price. We have shown freedom's power. And in this great conflict, ... we will see freedom's victory." - George W. Bush, President of the United States State of the Union, January 28, 2002 Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 8 18:19: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6CFD37B405; Sat, 8 Jun 2002 18:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0052.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.52] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GrMB-0003sL-00; Sat, 08 Jun 2002 18:19:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3D02ACE0.9DAB0822@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 18:18:24 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton Cc: Mike Barcroft , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Standardized make options (or no doesn't always mean no) References: <20020608210159.B87326@espresso.q9media.com> <3D02AB11.F373AB4@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Barton wrote: > Mike Barcroft wrote: > > Is anyone planning to do something about the hugely confusing state of > > NO/NO_ options? I can never remember which options have an underscore > > after the NO, so I end up writing commands like > > `make kernel ... NO_KERNELCLEAN=true NOKERNELCLEAN=true'. It would > > very nice if we could standardize this and add some compatibility > > shims for historical spellings. > > In the past versions of this conversation, the general agreement is that > going forward we should probably standardize on underscores to seperate > words. So, NO_FOO rather than NOFOO. However, no_volunteer has come > forward to do the work you've described, so if you're volunteering.... > :) How about "FOO=false" and "FOO=true" and "NO_FOO: undefined variable"? This whole "NO" prefix thing on booleans is pretty silly... but I guess someone will end up posting in it's defense... after all: "Ain't no way someone won't not don't do it" If "Makefile"'s were English papers, I think we would all fail. Personally, I prefer explicit negation, e.g. "KERNELCLEAN=false" to existance negation by prefix value. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 8 18:33:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay1.yahoo.com (mail-relay1.yahoo.com [216.145.48.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24BD237B400; Sat, 8 Jun 2002 18:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FreeBSD.org (12-234-90-219.client.attbi.com [12.234.90.219]) by mail-relay1.yahoo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A3A8B5A6; Sat, 8 Jun 2002 18:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D02B069.5863B2B9@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 18:33:29 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mike Barcroft , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Standardized make options (or no doesn't always mean no) References: <20020608210159.B87326@espresso.q9media.com> <3D02AB11.F373AB4@FreeBSD.org> <3D02ACE0.9DAB0822@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > How about "FOO=false" and "FOO=true" and "NO_FOO: undefined variable"? Hysterical raisins. BLAH=anythingatall has always meant, "BLAH is true," (or more properly, BLAH is defined) regardless of the value. Your way would make more sense, but that's a battle I'm not willing to fight. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 8 19:42:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au (mailman.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCC2237B408; Sat, 8 Jun 2002 19:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bde.zeta.org.au (bde.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.102]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29951; Sun, 9 Jun 2002 12:42:15 +1000 Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 12:42:59 +1000 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: bde@gamplex.bde.org To: Doug Barton Cc: Mike Barcroft , Subject: Re: Standardized make options (or no doesn't always mean no) In-Reply-To: <3D02AB11.F373AB4@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: <20020609123557.X21758-100000@gamplex.bde.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Doug Barton wrote: > Mike Barcroft wrote: > > > > Is anyone planning to do something about the hugely confusing state of > > NO/NO_ options? I can never remember which options have an underscore > > after the NO, so I end up writing commands like > > `make kernel ... NO_KERNELCLEAN=true NOKERNELCLEAN=true'. It would > > very nice if we could standardize this and add some compatibility > > shims for historical spellings. > > In the past versions of this conversation, the general agreement is that > going forward we should probably standardize on underscores to seperate > words. So, NO_FOO rather than NOFOO. However, no_volunteer has come > forward to do the work you've described, so if you're volunteering.... > :) On my list of things to fix after the changing the spelling of "nothing" to "no thing". :-) :-) Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 8 22:33:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D471E37B411; Sat, 8 Jun 2002 22:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0193.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.193] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17GvKR-0006c7-00; Sat, 08 Jun 2002 22:33:27 -0700 Message-ID: <3D02E881.2F3F57CB@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 22:32:49 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton Cc: Mike Barcroft , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Standardized make options (or no doesn't always mean no) References: <20020608210159.B87326@espresso.q9media.com> <3D02AB11.F373AB4@FreeBSD.org> <3D02ACE0.9DAB0822@mindspring.com> <3D02B069.5863B2B9@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Barton wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > How about "FOO=false" and "FOO=true" and "NO_FOO: undefined variable"? > > Hysterical raisins. BLAH=anythingatall has always meant, "BLAH is true," > (or more properly, BLAH is defined) regardless of the value. Your way > would make more sense, but that's a battle I'm not willing to fight. Since everyone appears to be in the mood to hack "Make" these days, it might be worthwhile to add a "-U" option, jut like "cc" has? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message