From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 30 2:50:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C104B37B401 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 02:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from park.rambler.ru (park.rambler.ru [217.73.193.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AA0643E0A for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 02:50:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from is@rambler-co.ru) Received: from is (is.stack.net [217.73.193.40]) by park.rambler.ru (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id g5U9oCk24937; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 13:50:17 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from is@rambler-co.ru) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 13:50:12 +0400 (MSD) From: Igor Sysoev X-Sender: is@is To: Terry Lambert Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? In-Reply-To: <3D1E3126.C96FFAA5@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 29 Jun 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Doug Barton wrote: > > Subject: We're famous > >http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=70&e=2&cid=70&u=/cn/20020629/tc_cn/940585 Of course non-executable stack is good idea but Apache's chunked exploit does not execute any code on stack. Code runs in Apache malloc()ed BUFF structure. Igor Sysoev http://sysoev.ru To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 30 3:26:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43BE937B400 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 03:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1C7B43E0A for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 03:26:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0052.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.52] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Obu3-0007O4-00; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 03:25:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1EDC8F.930AE88A@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 03:25:19 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Wemm Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? References: <20020630070005.092FD390F@overcee.wemm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Peter Wemm wrote: > ie: most stack overflow holes would still be exploitable. It just makes it > a little harder since you can only push data instead of shellcode. But > that's all there is to it, you push your args, the set the return address > to point to the PLT trapoline and in most cases you are home. > > Making the stack non-executable is not the final solution. It just raises > the bar a bit. > > Note that I'm not saying that we shouldn't do it, just do not have > unrealistic expectations for it. This is a good point. The intent was not invulnerability; you could still buffer overflow to get instructions to scripting engines, like the JVM, mod_perl, etc., which "execute" data. I was aware of the libc exploit, but didn't want to really publicize it that much. Too late now. 8-). I expect that the way around it is to statically link the program: linked static -> no PLT. But there are still tons of ways to exploit badly written code. The real benefit is to reduce the number of cases in which a programming mistake results in an exploit, not make things "exploit proof" (I'm a firm believer in Goedel). Raising the bar is useful; if nothing else, it sends them to the house without even cheap locks, and our neighbors stereo goes missing instead of ours (not a paredo-optimal result, but better than *our* stereo going missing). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 30 3:39:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9F6737B401 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 03:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 730FB43E13 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 03:39:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0052.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.52] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Oc6h-0005HA-00; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 03:39:03 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1EDF9F.D10072FC@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 03:38:23 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Igor Sysoev Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Igor Sysoev wrote: > On Sat, 29 Jun 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Doug Barton wrote: > > > Subject: We're famous > > >http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=70&e=2&cid=70&u=/cn/20020629/tc_cn/940585 > > Of course non-executable stack is good idea but > Apache's chunked exploit does not execute any code on stack. > Code runs in Apache malloc()ed BUFF structure. We are talking about the general case, not a specific case; not having seen the worm code, I can't speak for whether the trigger itself needed the stack, or not. At some point, you get a critical mass large enough, and you end up with enough people running your OS with non-updated server applications. You become another Microsoft, where the failure isn't so often that there isn't a patch, as it is that the patch has not been applied by the user. The time to deal with that issue is before it becomes impossible to deal with it. For example, for server machines, it might be resonable to permit all users to open priviledged sockets, not just root, so that the vast majority of your daemons can run without priviledges by default. At one point, SCO added a model similar to the VMS "installed image" model, where the image itself was attributed with priviledges, such as the ability to open a reserved socket, the ability to open serial ports owned by root, etc. (there were ~30 of them; can't remember them all). In any case, a non-executable stack goes quite a ways toward preventing people from creating easy exploits using a return to stack contents. It forces people to use second order, instead of first order, exploits. This is an arms race, not a battle that can be definitively won and never fought again. I expect we will eventually get to requirements tracking in interpreted languages, like Java byte code and perl, etc.. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 30 3:45:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C4D037B401 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 03:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.dmnstech.net (phoenix.dmnstech.net [194.19.34.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0A77F43E09 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 03:45:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@phoenix.dmnstech.net) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by phoenix.dmnstech.net (8.12.2/8.11.6) id g5UAj8FM015374; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:45:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from eivind) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:45:08 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Terry Lambert Cc: Bill Huey , Jake Burkholder , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? Message-ID: <20020630124508.A14361@phoenix.dmnstech.net> References: <3D1E28ED.B67A5271@FreeBSD.org> <3D1E3126.C96FFAA5@mindspring.com> <20020629185554.I71376@locore.ca> <20020629232603.GA1361@gnuppy.monkey.org> <3D1E55E5.998DCEBA@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3D1E55E5.998DCEBA@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 05:50:45PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 05:50:45PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: [On setting a non-executable stack] > As I said in the original post, Sean and I are both aware of the > possibility that some software will be unable to run after this. > > One way to potentially work around this is to allow the stack > pages to be marked executable by explicit linking with an > alternate crt0.o, or, more usefully, by way of an attribute on > the file (e.g. a "chflags"). Is there some reason that we should not do this by way of a syscall that the particular process calls? If an exploit is at a point where it can run syscalls, I'd think we are screwed anyway, and we should know at compile time what programs would need this and not, if we do it globally. The only problem is legacy programs that need this. chflags has the large disadvantage of not playing nice with many backup systems, and not being available in many filesystems. An ELF section avoid this problem, but somehow seems less clean than a syscall. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 30 4:41: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED47237B401; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 04:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9148743E0A; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 04:40:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0052.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.52] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Od4a-0007hk-00; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 04:40:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1EEE1E.80FBFFF2@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 04:40:14 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund Cc: Bill Huey , Jake Burkholder , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? References: <3D1E28ED.B67A5271@FreeBSD.org> <3D1E3126.C96FFAA5@mindspring.com> <20020629185554.I71376@locore.ca> <20020629232603.GA1361@gnuppy.monkey.org> <3D1E55E5.998DCEBA@mindspring.com> <20020630124508.A14361@phoenix.dmnstech.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Eivind Eklund wrote: > > One way to potentially work around this is to allow the stack > > pages to be marked executable by explicit linking with an > > alternate crt0.o, or, more usefully, by way of an attribute on > > the file (e.g. a "chflags"). > > Is there some reason that we should not do this by way of a syscall that the > particular process calls? If an exploit is at a point where it can run > syscalls, I'd think we are screwed anyway, and we should know at compile time > what programs would need this and not, if we do it globally. The only problem > is legacy programs that need this. This is how as crt0/1 fix would *have to* work. It's the kernel that makes the decision on stack page mappings, and on stack growth (through the fault handler for the guard page). The reason this was less useful than a file attribute is that it would have to be called explicitly. The default would have to be "allowed", with the call being "relinquish". That's why it would need the compiler option O'Brian was talking about implementing, if I hacked up ctr1 for him. It would be like being root by default in all programs, and having to call "setuid" to become non-root, which also makes it undesirable. I think this is heading down into the implementation details, and it's important to keep it at a higher level for right now, so I won't comment on the rest... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 30 5:10:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4174737B400 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 05:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crewsoft.com (papua.crewsoft.com [198.232.247.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B044A43E0A for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 05:10:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cedric@wireless-networks.com) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (account cberger@wireless-networks.com HELO wireless-networks.com) by crewsoft.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.7) with ESMTP id 5379171; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 05:09:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1EF628.5090105@wireless-networks.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 14:14:32 +0200 From: Cedric Berger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? References: <3D1E28ED.B67A5271@FreeBSD.org> <3D1E3126.C96FFAA5@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: >We've identified a number of issues that might make doing this >problematic, and on which there needs to be feedback: > >o Java; specifically, JITs may rely on an executable > stack. Neither of us knows if this is true, for > sure. > It is the default (noexec_user_stack) for 64-bit Solaris. http://docs.sun.com/?q=noexec_user_stack&p=/doc/806-7009/6jftnqsis&a=view Since I doubt Sun would set a default which makes Java unusable, It seems to me that Java has a good probability to be OK with that. Or am I missing something? Cedric To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 30 5:25:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E015E37B400 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 05:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C26F43E1D for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 05:25:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0052.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.52] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Odlx-0007Tu-00; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 05:25:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1EF89E.B5BC0CCE@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 05:25:02 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cedric Berger Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? References: <3D1E28ED.B67A5271@FreeBSD.org> <3D1E3126.C96FFAA5@mindspring.com> <3D1EF628.5090105@wireless-networks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Cedric Berger wrote: > It is the default (noexec_user_stack) for 64-bit Solaris. > http://docs.sun.com/?q=noexec_user_stack&p=/doc/806-7009/6jftnqsis&a=view > Since I doubt Sun would set a default which makes Java unusable, > It seems to me that Java has a good probability to be OK with that. > Or am I missing something? SPARC != i386. SunSpot uses executable stack on i386, according to one poster. However, this man page reference for Solaris gives a nice clue on how to get around it: explicit use of mprotect() (clever lads!). That actually gets rid of a lot of the objections I was able to come up with, if doing that to the stack would work on FreeBSD as well (seems to on 4.6). That leaves the issue of binary compatability; the sysctl approach (per Solaris) is not a good idea, since you can't stop other processes starting during an off-then-on-then-off window. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 30 13:42:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F5037B406; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 13:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from overcee.wemm.org (12-232-114-102.client.attbi.com [12.232.114.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0547543E09; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 13:42:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.wemm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C57390F; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 13:42:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Eivind Eklund , Bill Huey , Jake Burkholder , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? In-Reply-To: <3D1EEE1E.80FBFFF2@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 13:42:27 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20020630204227.40C57390F@overcee.wemm.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > One way to potentially work around this is to allow the stack > > > pages to be marked executable by explicit linking with an > > > alternate crt0.o, or, more usefully, by way of an attribute on > > > the file (e.g. a "chflags"). > > > > Is there some reason that we should not do this by way of a syscall that th e > > particular process calls? If an exploit is at a point where it can run > > syscalls, I'd think we are screwed anyway, and we should know at compile ti me > > what programs would need this and not, if we do it globally. The only prob lem > > is legacy programs that need this. > > This is how as crt0/1 fix would *have to* work. It's the kernel > that makes the decision on stack page mappings, and on stack > growth (through the fault handler for the guard page). The way I was going to implement this a few months ago (before I spoke with the gcc folks over lunch to find out if it would break anything - it would, nested functions - and they explained to me how little it buys us anyway) was to modify either crt1.o or libc to use a syscall to point to our own private trampoline code to be used instead of the one on the stack, and then switch %cs to another segment descriptor slot that doesn't include the stack, or have add something like a SA_USERTRAMP flag to sigaction etc and have libc wrapperize the signal calls to set a user-level trampoline. The implementation is easy. We can have a MD library call to turn stack execution on/off even (no privilige required - just flip a segment register in the x86 case). The only reason I never got around to it was that I had other more pressing things to do. Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 30 19:31:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BEAD37B47E for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 19:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3.kornet.net (relay3.kornet.net [211.48.62.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEC7A43E26 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 19:30:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from amimi0404@kornet.net) Received: from ns (61.73.89.202) by relay3.kornet.net; 1 Jul 2002 11:30:17 +0900 Message-ID: <3d1fbeb93d36be10@relay3.kornet.net> (added by relay3.kornet.net) From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?v+y4rsSrteXIuL/4IL+1vvfGwMDl?= To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: 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(mail-relay1.yahoo.com [216.145.48.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9EE43E0A for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:45:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@FreeBSD.org) Received: from FreeBSD.org (12-234-90-219.client.attbi.com [12.234.90.219]) by mail-relay1.yahoo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE058B5BE for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D1FFA5A.80B22BB6@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:44:42 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: RFC: Fate of /usr/share/doc/smm/10.named Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I did the bind 8.3.3 import today, and nuked the doc/bog (BIND Operator's Guide) directory because I couldn't find anywhere in the tree where it was used. Well, I didn't look hard enough, because it was there in /usr/src/share/doc/smm/10.named. The other reason I felt confident removing it was that it's quite old, dating back to 1994-6, and referencing BIND 4. To fix the build, I removed 10.named from the smm/Makefile temporarily. I'd like to permanently remove it, since IMO it's no longer pertinent. Opinions? Doug -- "We have known freedom's price. We have shown freedom's power. And in this great conflict, ... we will see freedom's victory." - George W. Bush, President of the United States State of the Union, January 28, 2002 Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 1 2:33:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CFE737B400; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 02:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whale.sunbay.crimea.ua (whale.sunbay.crimea.ua [212.110.138.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 035C443E09; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 02:33:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ru@whale.sunbay.crimea.ua) Received: (from ru@localhost) by whale.sunbay.crimea.ua (8.11.6/8.11.2) id g619XeK01980; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:33:40 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from ru) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:33:40 +0300 From: Ruslan Ermilov To: Doug Barton Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RFC: Fate of /usr/share/doc/smm/10.named Message-ID: <20020701093340.GB98731@sunbay.com> References: <3D1FFA5A.80B22BB6@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lEGEL1/lMxI0MVQ2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D1FFA5A.80B22BB6@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --lEGEL1/lMxI0MVQ2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 11:44:42PM -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > I did the bind 8.3.3 import today, and nuked the doc/bog (BIND > Operator's Guide) directory because I couldn't find anywhere in the tree > where it was used. Well, I didn't look hard enough, because it was there > in /usr/src/share/doc/smm/10.named. The other reason I felt confident > removing it was that it's quite old, dating back to 1994-6, and > referencing BIND 4.=20 >=20 > To fix the build, I removed 10.named from the smm/Makefile temporarily. > I'd like to permanently remove it, since IMO it's no longer pertinent. > Opinions? >=20 The best we can do is to try to figure out whether BIND developers are going to update or nuke it, and act appropriately. Cheers, --=20 Ruslan Ermilov Sysadmin and DBA, ru@sunbay.com Sunbay Software AG, ru@FreeBSD.org FreeBSD committer, +380.652.512.251 Simferopol, Ukraine http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve http://www.oracle.com Enabling The Information Age --lEGEL1/lMxI0MVQ2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE9ICH0Ukv4P6juNwoRAuplAJ0etVi7Li7nmwua2Ad/0DYhaJ5FqwCfXcYI WhMwDRpUD273UZ6h55SKzps= =xv76 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --lEGEL1/lMxI0MVQ2-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 1 8:28:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB0137B400; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1A1743E09; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:28:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.org) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b123.otenet.gr [212.205.244.131]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g61EXGnu029865; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:33:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g61EX0vX004537; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:33:01 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.4/8.12.4/Submit) id g61EMVms004346; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:22:31 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.org) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:22:31 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Doug Barton Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: RFC: Fate of /usr/share/doc/smm/10.named Message-ID: <20020701142231.GB4041@hades.hell.gr> References: <3D1FFA5A.80B22BB6@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D1FFA5A.80B22BB6@FreeBSD.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: C1EB 0653 DB8B A557 3829 00F9 D60F 941A 3186 03B6 X-Phone: +30-944-116520 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2002-06-30 23:44 +0000, Doug Barton wrote: > To fix the build, I removed 10.named from the smm/Makefile temporarily. > I'd like to permanently remove it, since IMO it's no longer pertinent. > Opinions? There are other documents in /usr/share/doc/smm that are kept there only for their historical value, since they no longer describe what is done today. One example, that I could find by looking at the ascii output I keep in my /usr/share/doc, is 01.setup/paper.ascii.gz. Is it really necessary to remove 10.named? - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 1 10:55:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9D2837B400; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D7E043E09; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:55:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.4/8.12.4) with SMTP id g61HtFbM057471; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:55:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:55:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Doug Barton , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: RFC: Fate of /usr/share/doc/smm/10.named In-Reply-To: <20020701142231.GB4041@hades.hell.gr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2002-06-30 23:44 +0000, Doug Barton wrote: > > To fix the build, I removed 10.named from the smm/Makefile temporarily. > > I'd like to permanently remove it, since IMO it's no longer pertinent. > > Opinions? > > There are other documents in /usr/share/doc/smm that are kept there only > for their historical value, since they no longer describe what is done > today. One example, that I could find by looking at the ascii output I > keep in my /usr/share/doc, is 01.setup/paper.ascii.gz. Is it really > necessary to remove 10.named? I think keeping things for historical reasons is a useful thing to do, but that installing them in the default install is definitely not a useful thing to do since it will only lead to confusion. Maybe we need a historical documents repository somewhere with a big label saying: We keep these for historical reasons only. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 1 11:25:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49EB037B400 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.noos.fr (lafontaine.noos.net [212.198.2.72]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C1543E26 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:25:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@gits.dyndns.org) Received: (qmail 9173735 invoked by uid 0); 1 Jul 2002 18:25:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gits.gits.dyndns.org) ([212.198.229.153]) (envelope-sender ) by 212.198.2.72 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 1 Jul 2002 18:25:13 -0000 Received: from gits.gits.dyndns.org (uxz9u8wwsfgwjopk@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gits.gits.dyndns.org (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g61IPCtY064076; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 20:25:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root@gits.dyndns.org) Received: (from root@localhost) by gits.gits.dyndns.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Submit) id g61IPBpJ064075; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 20:25:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 20:25:11 +0200 From: Cyrille Lefevre To: Doug Barton Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: RFC: Fate of /usr/share/doc/smm/10.named Message-ID: <20020701182511.GA63216@gits.dyndns.org> Mail-Followup-To: Cyrille Lefevre , Doug Barton , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org References: <3D1FFA5A.80B22BB6@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D1FFA5A.80B22BB6@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Organization: ACME X-Face: V|+c;4!|B?E%BE^{E6);aI.[< List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 11:44:42PM -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > I did the bind 8.3.3 import today, and nuked the doc/bog (BIND > Operator's Guide) directory because I couldn't find anywhere in the tree > where it was used. Well, I didn't look hard enough, because it was there > in /usr/src/share/doc/smm/10.named. The other reason I felt confident > removing it was that it's quite old, dating back to 1994-6, and > referencing BIND 4. > > To fix the build, I removed 10.named from the smm/Makefile temporarily. > I'd like to permanently remove it, since IMO it's no longer pertinent. > Opinions? IMHO, this doc isn't that much obsolete. only the part describing the top-level configuration file is, but the rest looks good. also, since there is no other online doc, I think it is better to left this one rather than nothing. also, as I remember me, some informations described here aren't described in the manual pages. so, I vote for keep it. Cyrille. -- Cyrille Lefevre mailto:cyrille.lefevre@laposte.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 1 11:27:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 761C437B400; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-relay1.yahoo.com (mail-relay1.yahoo.com [216.145.48.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C18943E09; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:27:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@FreeBSD.org) Received: from FreeBSD.org (12-234-90-219.client.attbi.com [12.234.90.219]) by mail-relay1.yahoo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9ADA8B5B4; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D209F09.1525FC90@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 11:27:21 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RFC: Fate of /usr/share/doc/smm/10.named References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Robert Watson wrote: > > On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > On 2002-06-30 23:44 +0000, Doug Barton wrote: > > > To fix the build, I removed 10.named from the smm/Makefile temporarily. > > > I'd like to permanently remove it, since IMO it's no longer pertinent. > > > Opinions? > > > > There are other documents in /usr/share/doc/smm that are kept there only > > for their historical value, since they no longer describe what is done > > today. One example, that I could find by looking at the ascii output I > > keep in my /usr/share/doc, is 01.setup/paper.ascii.gz. Is it really > > necessary to remove 10.named? > > I think keeping things for historical reasons is a useful thing to do, but > that installing them in the default install is definitely not a useful > thing to do since it will only lead to confusion. I agree with this reasoning, and also with keeping them around "somewhere." The BOG is a particularly good candidate for pruning since it's still available from the vendor. Yesterday I sent a proposal for a project to -doc to document what all those old things in /usr/share/doc are, and how to use them. Perhaps we need to modify that project to include, "Identify what's still useful, and archive the rest on the web site?" Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 1 12: 6:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4643837B400; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from overcee.wemm.org (12-232-114-102.client.attbi.com [12.232.114.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE92D43E09; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:06:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.wemm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 777033916; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:06:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Doug Barton Cc: Robert Watson , Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RFC: Fate of /usr/share/doc/smm/10.named In-Reply-To: <3D209F09.1525FC90@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 12:06:51 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20020701190651.777033916@overcee.wemm.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Barton wrote: > Robert Watson wrote: > > > > On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > > > On 2002-06-30 23:44 +0000, Doug Barton wrote: > > > > To fix the build, I removed 10.named from the smm/Makefile temporarily. > > > > I'd like to permanently remove it, since IMO it's no longer pertinent. > > > > Opinions? > > > > > > There are other documents in /usr/share/doc/smm that are kept there only > > > for their historical value, since they no longer describe what is done > > > today. One example, that I could find by looking at the ascii output I > > > keep in my /usr/share/doc, is 01.setup/paper.ascii.gz. Is it really > > > necessary to remove 10.named? > > > > I think keeping things for historical reasons is a useful thing to do, but > > that installing them in the default install is definitely not a useful > > thing to do since it will only lead to confusion. > > I agree with this reasoning, and also with keeping them around > "somewhere." The BOG is a particularly good candidate for pruning since > it's still available from the vendor. FWIW; This doesn't help you if you are on an isolated lan and trying to use named on your island network instead of /etc/hosts. Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 1 12: 8:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAE2737B400; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC70043E0A; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:08:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0353.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.98] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P6Wm-0004jP-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 15:08:01 -0400 Message-ID: <3D20A868.9FCAE4B8@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 12:07:20 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton Cc: Robert Watson , Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RFC: Fate of /usr/share/doc/smm/10.named References: <3D209F09.1525FC90@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Barton wrote: > I agree with this reasoning, and also with keeping them around > "somewhere." The BOG is a particularly good candidate for pruning since > it's still available from the vendor. Things that are brought in on vendor branches should be identical to the contents of packages distributed by the vendors themselves. Any time you move away from what the vendor supplied, you increase the number of extra delatas you have to think about the next time there is a vendor release, and you go to import it. Eventually, we may be able to bring a source tree in on a vendor branch, if CVSup ever gets rewritten in C so that someone can hack it into the code. When that happens, CVS managed projects explicit importation should become totally unnecessary. But any deltas that are maintained locally will end up being necessary to roll forward, and attic deletions are ugly that way. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 1 13: 3: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 0B69C37B401; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:03:04 -0700 From: Eric Melville To: Robert Watson Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Doug Barton , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: RFC: Fate of /usr/share/doc/smm/10.named Message-ID: <20020701130304.A10894@FreeBSD.org> References: <20020701142231.GB4041@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from rwatson@FreeBSD.org on Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 01:55:14PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think keeping things for historical reasons is a useful thing to do, but > that installing them in the default install is definitely not a useful > thing to do since it will only lead to confusion. Maybe we need a > historical documents repository somewhere with a big label saying: > > We keep these for historical reasons only. Shoving them into the projects section of the repository would be another option. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 1 13:45:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01A2337B400; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mrout1.yahoo.com (mrout1.yahoo.com [216.145.54.171]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE5EE43E09; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:45:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@FreeBSD.org) Received: from zoot.corp.yahoo.com (zoot.corp.yahoo.com [216.145.52.89]) by mrout1.yahoo.com (8.11.6/8.11.6/y.out) with ESMTP id g61KjZA81259; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (dougb@localhost) by zoot.corp.yahoo.com (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) with ESMTP id g61KjZUa024941; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:45:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Terry Lambert Cc: Robert Watson , Giorgos Keramidas , Subject: Re: RFC: Fate of /usr/share/doc/smm/10.named In-Reply-To: <3D20A868.9FCAE4B8@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020701134446.E24940-100000@zoot.corp.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Doug Barton wrote: > > I agree with this reasoning, and also with keeping them around > > "somewhere." The BOG is a particularly good candidate for pruning since > > it's still available from the vendor. > > Things that are brought in on vendor branches should be identical > to the contents of packages distributed by the vendors themselves. This is already not true because we delete a lot of other code that we don't use, like ports for other OS'. > Any time you move away from what the vendor supplied, you increase > the number of extra delatas you have to think about the next time > there is a vendor release, and you go to import it. That's why I updated FREEBSD-Xlist. :) -- "We have known freedom's price. We have shown freedom's power. And in this great conflict, ... we will see freedom's victory." - George W. Bush, President of the United States State of the Union, January 28, 2002 Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 1 15:19:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5689C37B400; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 406FE43E09; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:19:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0214.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.214] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17P9W9-00054O-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 18:19:33 -0400 Message-ID: <3D20D54D.E97E900C@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 15:18:53 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton Cc: Robert Watson , Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: RFC: Fate of /usr/share/doc/smm/10.named References: <20020701134446.E24940-100000@zoot.corp.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Barton wrote: > On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Doug Barton wrote: > > > I agree with this reasoning, and also with keeping them around > > > "somewhere." The BOG is a particularly good candidate for pruning since > > > it's still available from the vendor. > > > > Things that are brought in on vendor branches should be identical > > to the contents of packages distributed by the vendors themselves. > > This is already not true because we delete a lot of other code that we > don't use, like ports for other OS'. I understand this. Particularly every time I go to cross-compile something with GCC, and have to do unnatural acts. 8-). It's a general principle. Some of the "rules" Satoshi used to have for importing code when he and I worked at the same place were that "unused things should be deleted" and "config should be run before 3rd party code was imported", and a couple of others that really tie you to a single target platform -- even a single version of an OS, if you only have one target platform to worry about. For GCC, this does really evil things to the native FreeBSD compiler sources (for example), when bmake-ing them turns out to be a really bad idea, relatively speaking. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 2 14:15:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C46A837B93E for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.92.13.169]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B446743F59 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g62L87tM058712; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:08:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.5/8.12.4/Submit) id g62L87bH058711; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:08:07 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RFC: Fate of /usr/share/doc/smm/10.named Message-ID: <20020702140807.B31625@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3D209F09.1525FC90@FreeBSD.org> <3D20A868.9FCAE4B8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3D20A868.9FCAE4B8@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:07:20PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:07:20PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Eventually, we may be able to bring a source tree in on a vendor > branch, if CVSup ever gets rewritten in C so that someone can hack > it into the code. When that happens, CVS managed projects explicit > importation should become totally unnecessary. What a crutch! I just bought a Modula-3 book from Amazon for $8.00. I *know* you have enough programming experience that you can easily pick up Modula-3. JDP keeps the m3 compiler port working, so you can't use the tools as an excuse either. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 2 19: 8:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34E3637B400; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AD2443E4E; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0617.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.107] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PZYu-0004R3-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:08:08 -0400 Message-ID: <3D225C47.C0D2C48D@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 19:07:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RFC: Fate of /usr/share/doc/smm/10.named References: <3D209F09.1525FC90@FreeBSD.org> <3D20A868.9FCAE4B8@mindspring.com> <20020702140807.B31625@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > On Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:07:20PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Eventually, we may be able to bring a source tree in on a vendor > > branch, if CVSup ever gets rewritten in C so that someone can hack > > it into the code. When that happens, CVS managed projects explicit > > importation should become totally unnecessary. > > What a crutch! > I just bought a Modula-3 book from Amazon for $8.00. I *know* you have > enough programming experience that you can easily pick up Modula-3. JDP > keeps the m3 compiler port working, so you can't use the tools as an > excuse either. I already know modula-3. I'm more worried about ongoing maintenance, and acceptance of code changes back into CVSup, and portability to platforms other than FreeBSD (as politically incorrect as it is to say something like that on a FreeBSD list). Ask John Polstra how he's enjoyed being the only maintainer for the CVSup code for forever... This is getting well off the subject. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 3 0:54:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 878A637B400 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 00:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.92.13.169]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF97643E52 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 00:54:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g637sEXu004123; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 00:54:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g637sE8x004122; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 00:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 00:54:14 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RFC: Fate of /usr/share/doc/smm/10.named Message-ID: <20020703005414.B4006@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3D209F09.1525FC90@FreeBSD.org> <3D20A868.9FCAE4B8@mindspring.com> <20020702140807.B31625@dragon.nuxi.com> <3D225C47.C0D2C48D@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3D225C47.C0D2C48D@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, Jul 02, 2002 at 07:07:03PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 02, 2002 at 07:07:03PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > David O'Brien wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 12:07:20PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Eventually, we may be able to bring a source tree in on a vendor > > > branch, if CVSup ever gets rewritten in C so that someone can hack > > > it into the code. When that happens, CVS managed projects explicit > > > importation should become totally unnecessary. ..snip.. > I already know modula-3. > > I'm more worried about ongoing maintenance, and acceptance of code > changes back into CVSup, Then what is the problem? Speak with JDP before starting work. I know he is easy to work with. > Ask John Polstra how he's enjoyed being the only maintainer for the > CVSup code for forever... If you put your m3 to use, there'd be double the maintaiers of it. > and portability to platforms other than FreeBSD Modula-3 is actually quite portable. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jul 3 13:46:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8316D37B400 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ebb.errno.com (ebb.errno.com [66.127.85.87]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22DFF43E09 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:46:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sam@errno.com) Received: from melange (melange.errno.com [66.127.85.82]) (authenticated bits=0) by ebb.errno.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g63KkGr4096335 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:46:16 -0700 (PDT)?g (envelope-from sam@errno.com)œ Message-ID: <05c801c222d2$ad797550$52557f42@errno.com> From: "Sam Leffler" To: Subject: status of hardware crypto support Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:46:16 -0700 Organization: Errno Consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a short note about the status of my work to port openbsd's support for hardware crypto devices to freebsd. I've had a patch available for -stable for a while that provides the openbsd kernel framework and a port of the device driver for various Hifn parts (e.g. 7751, 7951, 7811). In the past few weeks I've made major progress changing the KAME IPSEC code to use this framework, again in the style done by openbsd (using continuations to break up the input and output packet processing paths). At this point I have almost all aspects of IPv4-based IPSEC tested and working. There are some minor issues like support of the old-style AH protocol and keyed- MD5 and SHA1 AH algorithms, and I have yet to do any IPv6-based testing. In addition to the IPSEC work I've been talking to various hardware vendors about support for their products in FreeBSD. I now have Hifn-based cards of various flavors, and a Broadcom card for testing. I'm supposed to receive more hardware in the near future. I will be porting drivers for each of these cards from openbsd. Finally, I've been in touch with both openbsd and netbsd folks. My intent is to provide a common API for in-kernel and user-mode access to hardware crypto support. This will let everyone share application code (e.g. OpenSSL already done by openbsd) and reduce the effort required to port device drivers between the various systems. All my work so far has been in -stable, but I hope to port the work to -current soon. A goal is to get the kernel crypto device framework into the 5.0 release. I've been in touch with the KAME folks and will continue to discuss my IPSEC mods with them. My immediate work is to do performance analysis and tuning, and stress testing. Once I've completed that work I'll make the changes generally available. Special thanks to Vernier Networks who has been supporting this work and to GTGI who has provided crypto hardware. Sam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 4 10:43:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAEAE37B400; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from numeri.campus.luth.se (numeri.campus.luth.se [130.240.197.103]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F3C043E09; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:43:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from k@numeri.campus.luth.se) Received: (from k@localhost) by numeri.campus.luth.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g64HhEl56416; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 19:43:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from k) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 19:43:14 +0200 From: Johan Karlsson To: arch@freebsd.org Cc: dd@freebsd.org Subject: importing readlink(1) from OpenBSD Message-ID: <20020704194314.A52250@numeri.campus.luth.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [cc: Dima, ports maintainer] Hi I would like to import readlink(1) from OpenBSD into usr.bin. - But we already have OpenBSDs readlink(1) in the ports tree. Why do you still want to do that? We should, IMO, have front ends to most/all of our syscalls as utilities in our base system. This is one step closer to that goal. - Why did you think of this now? There is an open PR about it: http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=bin/11092 Opinions? If I don't get to many objections I intend to do this sometime next week. /Johan -- Johan Karlsson mailto:johan@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 4 14:29:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FEA237B400; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 14:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5188D43E09; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 14:29:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0231.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.231] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QEAf-0003EQ-00; Thu, 04 Jul 2002 17:29:49 -0400 Message-ID: <3D24BE24.7F4A1659@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 14:29:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johan Karlsson Cc: arch@freebsd.org, dd@freebsd.org Subject: Re: importing readlink(1) from OpenBSD References: <20020704194314.A52250@numeri.campus.luth.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Johan Karlsson wrote: > - But we already have OpenBSDs readlink(1) in the ports > tree. Why do you still want to do that? > > We should, IMO, have front ends to most/all of our syscalls > as utilities in our base system. This is one step > closer to that goal. > > - Why did you think of this now? Let me know when you get to select, kqueue, and fcntl based file locking. ;^) -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 4 14:38:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4448037B401 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 14:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.noos.fr (descartes.noos.net [212.198.2.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 378E743E42 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 14:38:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@gits.dyndns.org) Received: (qmail 46609281 invoked by uid 0); 4 Jul 2002 21:38:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gits.gits.dyndns.org) ([212.198.229.153]) (envelope-sender ) by 212.198.2.74 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 4 Jul 2002 21:38:46 -0000 Received: from gits.gits.dyndns.org (74157xndp9zivrfk@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gits.gits.dyndns.org (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g64LcitY010636; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:38:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root@gits.dyndns.org) Received: (from root@localhost) by gits.gits.dyndns.org (8.12.4/8.12.4/Submit) id g64LchXu010635; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:38:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:38:43 +0200 From: Cyrille Lefevre To: Johan Karlsson Cc: arch@freebsd.org, dd@freebsd.org Subject: Re: importing readlink(1) from OpenBSD Message-ID: <20020704213843.GA10505@gits.dyndns.org> References: <20020704194314.A52250@numeri.campus.luth.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020704194314.A52250@numeri.campus.luth.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Organization: ACME X-Face: V|+c;4!|B?E%BE^{E6);aI.[< List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jul 04, 2002 at 07:43:14PM +0200, Johan Karlsson wrote: > [cc: Dima, ports maintainer] > > There is an open PR about it: > http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=bin/11092 > > Opinions? readlink () { ls -ld "$@" | awk '/->/{print $NF;exit 0}END{exit 1}'; } PS : -f could be implemented using the following shell functions :) http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=absolutepath&as_uauthors=cyrille+lefevre Cyrille. -- Cyrille Lefevre mailto:cyrille.lefevre@laposte.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 4 14:49:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C38537B400 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 14:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from numeri.campus.luth.se (numeri.campus.luth.se [130.240.197.103]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A77243E31 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 14:49:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from k@numeri.campus.luth.se) Received: (from k@localhost) by numeri.campus.luth.se (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g64LnKS61453 for arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:49:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from k) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:49:20 +0200 From: Johan Karlsson To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: importing readlink(1) from OpenBSD Message-ID: <20020704234920.D52250@numeri.campus.luth.se> References: <20020704194314.A52250@numeri.campus.luth.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="opJtzjQTFsWo+cga" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020704194314.A52250@numeri.campus.luth.se>; from johan@freebsd.org on Thu, Jul 04, 2002 at 07:43:14PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Thu, Jul 04, 2002 at 19:43 (+0200) +0000, Johan Karlsson wrote: > I would like to import readlink(1) from OpenBSD into > usr.bin. Another option is to teach stat(1) how to double as readlink(1) (suggested by wollman). The attached patch does that (it does not implement -f since realpath(1) does that). Is that a better option? /Johan K -- Johan Karlsson mailto:k@numeri.campus.luth.se --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="stat.diff" Index: stat.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/usr.bin/stat/stat.c,v retrieving revision 1.1.1.1 diff -u -r1.1.1.1 stat.c --- stat.c 6 Jun 2002 19:27:17 -0000 1.1.1.1 +++ stat.c 4 Jul 2002 21:36:33 -0000 @@ -130,7 +130,7 @@ #define SHOW_filename 'N' #define SHOW_sizerdev 'Z' -void usage(void); +void usage(const char *); void output(const struct stat *, const char *, const char *, int, int); int format1(const struct stat *, /* stat info */ @@ -156,7 +156,7 @@ struct stat st; int ch, rc, errs; int lsF, fmtchar, usestat, fn, nonl; - char *statfmt; + char *statfmt, *options, *synopsis; lsF = 0; fmtchar = '\0'; @@ -165,7 +165,17 @@ statfmt = NULL; timefmt = NULL; - while ((ch = getopt(argc, argv, "f:FlLnrst:x")) != -1) + if (strcmp(getprogname(), "readlink") == 0) { + options = "n"; + synopsis = "[-n] [file ...]"; + statfmt = "%Y"; + fmtchar = 'f'; + } else { + options = "f:FlLnrst:x"; + synopsis = "[-FlLnrsx] [-f format] [-t timefmt] [file ...]"; + } + + while ((ch = getopt(argc, argv, options)) != -1) switch (ch) { case 'F': lsF = 1; @@ -192,7 +202,7 @@ timefmt = optarg; break; default: - usage(); + usage(synopsis); } argc -= optind; @@ -230,7 +240,7 @@ timefmt = "%c"; break; default: - usage(); + usage(synopsis); /*NOTREACHED*/ } @@ -262,12 +272,12 @@ } void -usage(void) +usage(const char *synopsis) { (void)fprintf(stderr, - "usage: %s [-FlLnrsx] [-f format] [-t timefmt] [file ...]\n", - getprogname()); + "usage: %s %s\n", + getprogname(), synopsis); exit(1); } @@ -457,7 +467,7 @@ } (void)write(STDOUT_FILENO, buf, len); - if (!nl && !nonl) + if (len && !nl && !nonl) (void)write(STDOUT_FILENO, "\n", sizeof("\n") - 1); } --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jul 4 15: 8:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6767137B400; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from turbine.trit.org (turbine.trit.org [63.198.170.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D61943E09; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:08:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dima@trit.org) Received: from turbine.trit.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turbine.trit.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F1EA3E2D; Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:08:50 +0000 (UTC) To: Johan Karlsson Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: importing readlink(1) from OpenBSD In-Reply-To: <20020704194314.A52250@numeri.campus.luth.se>; from johan@freebsd.org on "Thu, 4 Jul 2002 19:43:14 +0200" Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 22:08:50 +0000 From: Dima Dorfman Message-Id: <20020704220850.4F1EA3E2D@turbine.trit.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Johan Karlsson wrote: > Opinions? > > If I don't get to many objections I intend > to do this sometime next week. Sounds good to me. Please leave the port alone until the 4.7 release cycle begins (I don't want the port in 4.7, but I want it available for users of older -stable machines until a release with readlink in the base system is imminent). Thanks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 6 1: 1: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA7BB37B401 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 01:00:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-relay1.yahoo.com (mail-relay1.yahoo.com [216.145.48.34]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BE4D43E3B for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 01:00:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DougB@FreeBSD.org) Received: from FreeBSD.org (12-234-90-219.client.attbi.com [12.234.90.219]) by mail-relay1.yahoo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B468B5D6; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 01:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D26A3A5.55EEE143@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 01:00:37 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johan Karlsson Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: importing readlink(1) from OpenBSD References: <20020704194314.A52250@numeri.campus.luth.se> <20020704234920.D52250@numeri.campus.luth.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Johan Karlsson wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 04, 2002 at 19:43 (+0200) +0000, Johan Karlsson wrote: > > I would like to import readlink(1) from OpenBSD into > > usr.bin. > > Another option is to teach stat(1) how to double as readlink(1) > (suggested by wollman). > > The attached patch does that (it does not implement -f since > realpath(1) does that). > > Is that a better option? FWIW, the current maintainer of stat(1) at netbsd (where I imported our code from) has indicated that he's very interested in any work we do. You might want to run this by him first both to share the wealth, and also to help keep things in synch. http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/basesrc/usr.bin/stat/ Doug -- "We have known freedom's price. We have shown freedom's power. And in this great conflict, ... we will see freedom's victory." - George W. Bush, President of the United States State of the Union, January 28, 2002 Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 6 7:36:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95E0C37B400 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 07:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from llar.net.uniovi.es (llar.net.uniovi.es [156.35.11.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E3E43E42 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 07:36:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sobrado@string1.ciencias.uniovi.es) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.llar.net.uniovi.es by llar.net.uniovi.es (PMDF V6.1 #39514) id <01KJS4XLZNSW009NTT@llar.net.uniovi.es> for arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 16:36:47 +0200 (MET) Received: from string1.ciencias.uniovi.es (string1.ciencias.uniovi.es [156.35.97.40]) by llar.net.uniovi.es (PMDF V6.1 #39514) with ESMTP id <01KJS4XK8CKC00AAAQ@llar.net.uniovi.es> for arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 16:36:45 +0200 (MET) Received: from string1.ciencias.uniovi.es (sobrado@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by string1.ciencias.uniovi.es (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g66EajE32402 for ; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 16:36:45 +0200 Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 16:36:45 +0200 From: Igor Sobrado Subject: software in /usr/contrib To: arch@freebsd.org Message-id: <200207061436.g66EajE32402@string1.ciencias.uniovi.es> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Moving some software in *strong evolution* (bzip, gzip, zip, Perl, and Tcl/Tk) to /usr/contrib will be useful to avoid some problems that we saw in the last years in other Unices like Solaris. A description of some of those problems is in [bin/40222]. This practice has been adopted by BSD/OS and HP-UX at least. Cheers, Igor. -- Igor Sobrado, UK34436 - sobrado@acm.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 6 9:13:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE0D37B400 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 09:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A8B643E09 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 09:13:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 4989A534D; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 18:13:40 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Igor Sobrado Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: software in /usr/contrib References: <200207061436.g66EajE32402@string1.ciencias.uniovi.es> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Jul 2002 18:13:39 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200207061436.g66EajE32402@string1.ciencias.uniovi.es> Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Igor Sobrado writes: > Moving some software in *strong evolution* (bzip, gzip, zip, Perl, > and Tcl/Tk) to /usr/contrib will be useful to avoid some problems > that we saw in the last years in other Unices like Solaris. A > description of some of those problems is in [bin/40222]. I don't understand what problem you are trying to solve. > This practice has been adopted by BSD/OS and HP-UX at least. Both of these, as well as Solaris, are commercial OSes distributed in binary form, where OS upgrades are done by applying binary patches or installing a new binary release on top of the existing system, once every couple of years or so. FreeBSD is an open-source OS with a completely different distribution model, where upgrades are done by building a new system from updates sources, and happen quite frequently. You can't really compare the two. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 6 10: 9:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C4BE37B400 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 10:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from llar.net.uniovi.es (llar.net.uniovi.es [156.35.11.3]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A758743E31 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 10:09:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sobrado@string1.ciencias.uniovi.es) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.llar.net.uniovi.es by llar.net.uniovi.es (PMDF V6.1 #39514) id <01KJSA9ZQPQO00AFK3@llar.net.uniovi.es> for arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 19:09:33 +0200 (MET) Received: from string1.ciencias.uniovi.es (string1.ciencias.uniovi.es [156.35.97.40]) by llar.net.uniovi.es (PMDF V6.1 #39514) with ESMTP id <01KJSA9XDQNI00AAAQ@llar.net.uniovi.es>; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 19:09:30 +0200 (MET) Received: from string1.ciencias.uniovi.es (sobrado@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by string1.ciencias.uniovi.es (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g66H9UE00832; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 19:09:30 +0200 Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 19:09:30 +0200 From: Igor Sobrado Subject: Re: software in /usr/contrib In-reply-to: Message from Dag-Erling Smorgrav "of Sat, 06 Jul 2002 18:13:39 +0200." To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Igor Sobrado , arch@freebsd.org Message-id: <200207061709.g66H9UE00832@string1.ciencias.uniovi.es> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Igor Sobrado writes: > > Moving some software in *strong evolution* (bzip, gzip, zip, Perl, > > and Tcl/Tk) to /usr/contrib will be useful to avoid some problems > > that we saw in the last years in other Unices like Solaris. A > > description of some of those problems is in [bin/40222]. > > I don't understand what problem you are trying to solve. > I am sorry, I have not explained the problem because I show it some days ago in a problem report. The problem is that some externally maintained software is provided in /usr/bin (a directory that is required for all users and that cannot be removed from the PATH environment variable). I am speaking about Perl, and some compression tools, mainly. But /usr/contrib does not provide only perl, gzip, bzip2, and [un]zip, it provides too expect, Tcl/Tk and other software too when available. All those packages are in a strong evolution (Unix has some tools that are not in a strong evolution at present, but only changed when bug fixing.) and should be provided in another directory. Sun has made a mistake providing those binaries in /usr/bin. For example, we (as Solaris users) had been problems in the last year with bzip2 (the one provided with Solaris has a race condition that sometimes erases not only the file that is being created, but the uncompressed file too), and the zlib. As these binaries are in /usr/bin users have not a chance to remove them from their paths. What is the right behavior in this case? Replace them with most recent ones? It will change the operating system behavior and, if some packages depends on those binaries -like software installing tools that manage compressed files or administrative scripts written in perl- they can break when changing those binaries. Installing new releases of those binaries in /usr/local/bin (BSD) or /opt//bin (SVR4.x) does not seems a good workaround. In this case, some users will run the new ones (if they have /usr/local or /opt paths before /usr/bin) or the older ones, making the behavior of the operating system really unpredictable even locally. Replacing those binaries will make it most difficult to establish a problem for the FreeBSD technical staff around the world. Some Unices, like BSD/OS and HP-UX, have a different approach to solve this problem. They provide that software in other directories, more exactly in /usr/contrib/{bin, lib, sbin, ...} Those versions of that software can be hard-coded in the binaries (like bzip2 can be hard-coded in a software installation utility) or system scripts (that can be run under the right perl version) but will not be required for normal users, that can choose not to have /usr/contrib on their paths. Links in /usr/bin are possible, these links can be removed without removing the software used by those scripts. Some of us need not recent releases of some software (the *BSD offers the most recent releases available in most cases!) but customized software (like a Tcl version modified to build the MICE video-conferencing tool from source, or a modified compression tool). > Both of these, as well as Solaris, are commercial OSes distributed in > binary form, where OS upgrades are done by applying binary patches or > installing a new binary release on top of the existing system, once > every couple of years or so. FreeBSD is an open-source OS with a > completely different distribution model, where upgrades are done by > building a new system from updates sources, and happen quite > frequently. You can't really compare the two. > Agreed. But sometimes we do not need a most recent release, but a customized one. And all that software is in a very strong evolution. Unix [un]compress, sed, mail, mailx, or ldd, for example, will not change a lot in the next years (at least we think that these commands will not change!). There are not important changes expected for these tools, only bugfixes. But some of us need modified releases of tools like perl, Info-ZIP, or Tcl/Tk. It should be good to provide those tools in /usr/contrib, where will be available for the operating system (for example as hard-coded interpreters in shell scripts) but users can choose not to add them to their paths. Or, at least, it should be nice to allow users not to install them if they do not want. I think that moving that software (that is in strong evolution yet) to /usr/contrib is not a POLA violation. And most important, links can be provided in /usr/bin to hide those changes to end-users. I propose that change because I think that it will be reasonable and will improve that operating system quality. Thanks a lot for reading my proposal! Igor. -- Igor Sobrado, UK34436 - sobrado@acm.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 6 11:10:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB96837B400 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 11:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.208.78.105]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ED2043E31 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 11:10:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g66IA6ZY044376; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 11:10:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g66IA5OL044375; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 11:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 11:10:05 -0700 From: Steve Kargl To: Igor Sobrado Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: software in /usr/contrib Message-ID: <20020706111005.A44326@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <200207061709.g66H9UE00832@string1.ciencias.uniovi.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <200207061709.g66H9UE00832@string1.ciencias.uniovi.es>; from sobrado@string1.ciencias.uniovi.es on Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 07:09:30PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jul 06, 2002 at 07:09:30PM +0200, Igor Sobrado wrote: > > Igor Sobrado writes: > > The problem is that some externally maintained software is provided > in /usr/bin (a directory that is required for all users and that cannot > be removed from the PATH environment variable). I am speaking about > Perl, and some compression tools, mainly. But /usr/contrib does not > provide only perl, gzip, bzip2, and [un]zip, it provides too expect, > Tcl/Tk and other software too when available. All those packages are > in a strong evolution (Unix has some tools that are not in a strong > evolution at present, but only changed when bug fixing.) and should > be provided in another directory. perl has been removed from the base system. It will no longer appear in /usr/bin unless you put it there. Tcl was removed a long time ago and tk was never part of FreeBSD. gzip and bzip2 are in /usr/bin, but the source code that produces those binaries is located in src/contrib. In fact (almost) all externally developed software included in the base system is found under src/contrib because of maintenance concerns. If you use the ports collection, you can put the install packages wherever you want by setting PREFIX during the make stage. root[214] cd /usr/ports/devel/f77flow root[215] setenv PREFIX /usr/contrib root[216] make [build output deleted] root[217] make install ===> Installing for f77flow-0.12 ===> Generating temporary packing list ===> Compressing manual pages for f77flow-0.12 ===> Registering installation for f77flow-0.12 root[218] ls /usr/contrib bin/ include/ lib/ libexec/ sbin/ etc/ info/ libdata/ man/ share/ root[219] ls /usr/contrib/bin flow* You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist or already has a solution. -- Steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 6 13:31:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08F1737B400; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 13:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.develop.ferrari.net (host1.ferrari-electronic.de [62.159.79.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB68D43E3B; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 13:31:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@ferrari-electronic.de) Received: (from robert@localhost) by alpha.develop.ferrari.net (8.11.6/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) id g66KNAh02821; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 22:23:10 +0200 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 22:23:09 +0200 From: Robert Drehmel To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Cc: brian@FreeBSD.org, des@FreeBSD.org, markm@FreeBSD.org Subject: utmpx in FreeBSD Message-ID: <20020706222309.A2816@alpha.develop.ferrari.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ CC'ed to the maintainers of the affected daemons ] This is a proposal to change the way FreeBSD collects and handles information associated with logins. My goal was to streamline the way ``login daemons'' use this information, in addition to adding the capability to keep any relevant login information for use by tools like 'w'. I think I found a way to combine the above with an implementation of the utmpx interface functions defined by XSI. One of the major difficulties was to make sure the utmpx structure contains every data possible, e.g. telnetd(8) can deliver the peer network address but it has no clue whether a user will log in over this connection and who it will be. Passing this information to login(8) is ugly. This was not a big problem before, as telnetd(8) resolved the hostname and passed it to login(8) as an argument, period. The network connection data was lost. Tools like 'w' are still struggling to display to correct information under certain conditions just because they are given way too less data to work on (limited through 'struct utmp'). The proposed system collects login information in the kernel, associating it with the current session, as rwatson suggested on current@FreeBSD.org. Using this technique, telnetd(8) passes the peer network information to the kernel to remember it, login(8) validates this in-kernel information by setting the login user name. Because the XSI interface functions are somewhat limiting, they are not used by the daemons, but they are provided for compliance. :-) One neat side effect is the possibility to have the kernel perform direct modifications of the terminal entries, like setting the ut_type member from LOGIN_PROCESS to DEAD_PROCESS when a session lost its last reference (i.e. the session is no longer existent - the user logged out) using a pointer member in 'struct session'. The new system calls are utmpx_init_slot(const char *); utmpx_set(int behav, int index, const struct utmpx *); utmpx_update(int index, int which, void *data); utmpx_get(int index, int behav, void *data, struct utmpx *); utmpx_init_slot is used only by init(8) to pass the names of the terminals registered in ttys(5) to the kernel whenever init(8) reconstructs its internal terminal tables. utmpx_set and utmpx_get store an utmpx structure in the in-kernel table. Their behaviour is controlled by the behav argument. utmpx_update is be used to update single structure members of one kernel tty table entry. The behav argument can be set to UTX_B_DIRECT, UTX_B_GETUTXENT, UTX_B_GETUTXID, or UTX_B_GETUTXLINE. UTX_B_DIRECT operates on the entry the index points to, the others implement the functionality of the respective functions defined by XSI. Eventually, there should be a function utmpx_login(), that gets called when all login data has been collected in the kernel and which inserts appropriate entries into the wtmp[x] and lastlog files. Comments and questions appeciated. I am especially interested what the PAM people have to say about this. ciao, -robert To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 6 15: 5:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A7837B400 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 15:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scoobysnax.jaded.net (d141-7-230.home.cgocable.net [24.141.7.230]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D111443E3B for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 15:05:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@scoobysnax.jaded.net) Received: from scoobysnax.jaded.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scoobysnax.jaded.net (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g66M5BMH021170 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 18:05:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dan@scoobysnax.jaded.net) Received: (from dan@localhost) by scoobysnax.jaded.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g66M5Bs0021169 for arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 18:05:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 18:05:11 -0400 From: Dan Moschuk To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Package system flaws? Message-ID: <20020706220511.GA88651@scoobysnax.jaded.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've been doing some thinking lately about our ports system versus what other systems have adopted and was curious as to what people think on the subject? What does FreeBSD do well? Where can we improve? How does it rate against the umpteen Linux flavours? I'm not sure that this classifies as an architectual discussion (for now) so if you feel its appropriate please feel free to redirect to ports@. Cheers, -Dan -- This signature intentionally left blank. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 6 15:16:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA21337B400 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 15:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CPE0030ab0ef2bb.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com (CPE0030ab0ef2bb.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [24.103.202.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1258143E09 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 15:16:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from munish@CPE0030ab0ef2bb.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Received: by dhcppc1 (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1D3E1CB9; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 18:18:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 18:18:31 -0400 From: Munish Chopra To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Package system flaws? Message-ID: <20020706221830.GA318@CPE0030ab0ef2bb.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Mail-Followup-To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020706220511.GA88651@scoobysnax.jaded.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020706220511.GA88651@scoobysnax.jaded.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2002-07-06 18:05 +0000, Dan Moschuk wrote: > > I've been doing some thinking lately about our ports system versus what > other systems have adopted and was curious as to what people think on > the subject? What does FreeBSD do well? Where can we improve? How does it > rate against the umpteen Linux flavours? > > I'm not sure that this classifies as an architectual discussion (for now) > so if you feel its appropriate please feel free to redirect to ports@. > > Cheers, > -Dan > A while back I heard some 'rumours' (oh boy, rumours...) that FreeBSD was either going to switch to OpenPackages or to a new XML-based system. This was around the same time jkh posted something on the subject of ports or sysinstall or in that direction. In any case, OpenPackages has lost wind for now, though I've been told they just need someone to pick up the slack and get everyone rolling again. As for our current ports system, many people (including me, though I'm by no means an expert on the subject) feel that it's very limiting and has some substantial flaws (concept is great, implementation is lacking). Most of these come up when you're porting an app and you need to make some ugly hacks for stuff to work the way you want it to. Also, looking at the 'big picture', a few other concerns come up. I'm sure some other people have more concrete things to say. -- Munish Chopra The FreeBSD NVIDIA Driver Initiative http://nvidia.netexplorer.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 6 15:17:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6636737B400 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 15:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1204743E3B for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 15:17:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0570.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.60] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Qxrf-0002Re-00; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 18:17:16 -0400 Message-ID: <3D276C42.67C25814@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 15:16:34 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Igor Sobrado Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: software in /usr/contrib References: <200207061709.g66H9UE00832@string1.ciencias.uniovi.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Igor Sobrado wrote: > > Igor Sobrado writes: > > > Moving some software in *strong evolution* (bzip, gzip, zip, Perl, > > > and Tcl/Tk) to /usr/contrib will be useful to avoid some problems > > > that we saw in the last years in other Unices like Solaris. A > > > description of some of those problems is in [bin/40222]. > > > > I don't understand what problem you are trying to solve. I believe when he says "in a strong evolution", he actually means "undergoing active developement". The problem he appears to be trying to solve is that these things tend to change very quickly, without any FreeBSD control over their size, shape, or direction. This was the initial justification for the removal of Perl in the based system, and the seed of the ongoing dicussion entitled "Removing perl in make world". Igor is saying that there are other tools which are obtained from thir parties which should also atl least be moved to "controib", if not banished from the system to a port/package. For some tools, this makes sense. For other tools, this is very dangerous... and here's why: FreeBSD has been steadily giving away control of base system components to third parties. Any time it takes a BSD verion of a program, such as "tar", and replaces it with a GNU or other vendor's equivalent, even if it's done for good reason, then it sets up a situation like the one Igor is concerned about. I think that he's right for some tools; they simply don't belong in the base system (e.g. "bzip2" is not in specified by POSIX or the Sinugle UNIX Specification). But for other things, where there is not a BSD equivalent, or where the BSD equivalent has been intentionally abandoned, it doesn't make sense. I don't claim to have a litmus test that would let you pick in every case; if this idea goes forward, it should be with caution. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 6 15:36:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6482637B400 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 15:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1634F43E31 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 15:36:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0570.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.60] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17QyAD-0003l5-00; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 18:36:25 -0400 Message-ID: <3D2770BF.F0C20C15@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 15:35:43 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Munish Chopra Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Package system flaws? References: <20020706220511.GA88651@scoobysnax.jaded.net> <20020706221830.GA318@CPE0030ab0ef2bb.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Munish Chopra wrote: > A while back I heard some 'rumours' (oh boy, rumours...) that FreeBSD > was either going to switch to OpenPackages or to a new XML-based system. > This was around the same time jkh posted something on the subject of > ports or sysinstall or in that direction. In any case, OpenPackages has > lost wind for now, though I've been told they just need someone to pick > up the slack and get everyone rolling again. http://www.FreeBSD.org/projects/updater.html http://www.advogato.org/proj/binup/ http://www.advogato.org/person/eric/ http://people.freebsd.org/~eric/ aka Eric Melville -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 6 18:27:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B071437B400 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 18:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from softweyr.com (softweyr.com [65.88.244.127]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8CDF43E09 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 18:27:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from homer.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.39] helo=softweyr.com) by softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17R0pu-000Cmn-00; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 19:27:38 -0600 Message-ID: <3D2799F1.16F76FE2@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 18:31:29 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Munish Chopra Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Package system flaws? References: <20020706220511.GA88651@scoobysnax.jaded.net> <20020706221830.GA318@CPE0030ab0ef2bb.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Munish Chopra wrote: > > On 2002-07-06 18:05 +0000, Dan Moschuk wrote: > > > > I've been doing some thinking lately about our ports system versus what > > other systems have adopted and was curious as to what people think on > > the subject? What does FreeBSD do well? Where can we improve? How does it > > rate against the umpteen Linux flavours? > > > > I'm not sure that this classifies as an architectual discussion (for now) > > so if you feel its appropriate please feel free to redirect to ports@. > > > > Cheers, > > -Dan > > > > A while back I heard some 'rumours' (oh boy, rumours...) that FreeBSD > was either going to switch to OpenPackages or to a new XML-based system. OpenPackages has some interesting, sticky problems to solve that are not necessarily problems for FreeBSD. For instance, if you've decided to store archives of files in tar format, which tar do you use? Do you write the code so it can recognize and use the native tar utility on every system, or do you mandate an OP-approved tar utility and require the sysadmin to install OPtar on the system via some method other than OPpkg_add, which only supports OPtar? > This was around the same time jkh posted something on the subject of > ports or sysinstall or in that direction. In any case, OpenPackages has > lost wind for now, though I've been told they just need someone to pick > up the slack and get everyone rolling again. What they really need is somebody to just make the current system work, rather than worrying about the global package architecture of the 22nd century. > As for our current ports system, many people (including me, though I'm > by no means an expert on the subject) feel that it's very limiting and > has some substantial flaws (concept is great, implementation is > lacking). Most of these come up when you're porting an app and you need > to make some ugly hacks for stuff to work the way you want it to. Also, > looking at the 'big picture', a few other concerns come up. Have you followed up by making some improvements or suggesting an improved architecture? If this is the start of that process, thank you in advance. Please be sure to scan the archives for the past 3 or 4 iterations of this conversation so you'll truly be ready to address the issues. > I'm sure some other people have more concrete things to say. I hope so. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jul 6 19: 4:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EB3237B400; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 19:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from softweyr.com (softweyr.com [65.88.244.127]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 574C943E31; Sat, 6 Jul 2002 19:04:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from homer.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.39] helo=softweyr.com) by softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17R1Pa-000CnP-00; Sat, 06 Jul 2002 20:04:30 -0600 Message-ID: <3D27A296.D58FB4B4@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 19:08:22 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Moschuk Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Package system flaws? References: <20020706220511.GA88651@scoobysnax.jaded.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dan Moschuk wrote: > > I've been doing some thinking lately about our ports system versus what > other systems have adopted and was curious as to what people think on > the subject? What does FreeBSD do well? FreeBSD does well at a number of important things: o Provides a framework for porting applications to FreeBSD. Don't belittle this point, the ports collection is a huge advantage. o Provides dependency checking that pretty much works. This is certainly far better than RPMs, for instance, and a LOT better than doing it manually. o Provides the ability to wrap a "port" that has been built into a binary "package," and the associated tools to install and deinstall packages. The dependency checking mechanism works as well for packages as it does for ports, modulo a few nits like having packages on multiple CD-ROMs and only one CD-ROM drive. o The ports team and the FreeBSD infrastructure provide a very up-to-date collection of ports and pre-compiled packages. This is especially valuable for those who use binary packages and need critical security updates for them in a timely manner. > Where can we improve? In all of the above areas, plus all the ones we haven't addressed yet. Some of the areas are extensions to problems we have with binary system distributions, some are unique to the ports/packages system. The issue of generational control of system configurations bites every OS; having nearly 9,000 "free" applications magnifies the problem significantly. Maintaining configuration files through the installation and de- installation of binary ports is a challenge we've not yet risen to. > How does it rate against the umpteen Linux flavours? Hard to say, because the upteen Linux flavors have umpteen different ways of addressing the same problem. They have different tool sets, such as RPMs and dpkg/apt-get, they have different staff levels dedicated to porting traditional UNIX applications and such, and they have different ways to of communicating such to their users. Some lower-end Linux distros do none of the above, relying on you the user to obtain whatever applications you want via your own means. > I'm not sure that this classifies as an architectual discussion (for now) > so if you feel its appropriate please feel free to redirect to ports@. I'd certainly like to see it evolve into an architectural discussion, even if all it accomplishes is to layout the work that needs to be done and provide some sort of road map of what the next step or two might be. I see a lot of interest in improving our application packaging and building tools, but no concrete idea of what to improve next. I'm more interested in the binary package side personally, a holdover from a previous professional involvement in this area. I have a number of ideas for things that could be improved in relatively small projects if someone wants to discuss those with me. For the ports building infrastructure, I lack enough knowlege about the ports infrastructure to be able to contribute meaningfully, but I am sure the portsmgr team and all active ports maintainers are interested in any such discussion. Please, anyone who is interested in this aspect of FreeBSD, read the archives to learn about the issues that have been brought up in the past, think a bit, and start a discussion. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message