From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 7 0:49:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-2.free.fr (postfix2-2.free.fr [213.228.0.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC7537B435 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 00:49:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-3-62-147-139-69.dial.proxad.net [62.147.139.69]) by postfix2-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF70B5F8D5 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 10:49:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 4467 invoked by uid 1001); 7 Apr 2002 08:48:01 -0000 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 10:48:01 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? Message-ID: <20020407084801.GA4429@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <20020406105111.A90057@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEDDD2.2ADA819F@mindspring.com> <20020406114505.GA2576@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEE4A1.315CF53@mindspring.com> <20020406191209.GA3203@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAF8204.5E93CE38@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CAF8204.5E93CE38@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 6, 2002 at 15:17:24: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Now, if you have to ship the BSD licence with your code: > > For your own protection, if you're Microsoft you must make it > > explicitly clear exactly what the BSD licence applies to -- it clearly > > applies to something you're shipping; and surely you can't say "this > > licence applies to some code in our ftp binary, but not to the binary > > as a whole, and if you want to know exactly what it applies to and > > thus take advantage of this licence, you have to go find the relevant > > pieces of source code for yourself; we won't help you." > > Sure they can say that. Why couldn't they? [snip] > > As for re-licensing under the GPL -- you'd still be obliged to put the > > BSD licence in there, so it would really be dual-licensing, not > > re-licensing. > > Not quite. A dual license can only work if you are permitted > to drop one ("either under the terms of A _or_ under the terms > of _B_"). You can never drop the BSD license terms from the > code, without an assignment of rights, or the permission of the > authors. So why can't the GNU people do the same thing you say Microsoft can do -- trivially modify the source (add GNU-style long command-line options?) or even leave it totally unmodified, include the BSD licence, and say "the BSD licence applies to part or all of this code, but we're not telling you what, you have to find out for yourself." That looks, to me, like effectively dropping the BSD licence terms, since you don't know what they apply to; sure you can find out with some research, but you could have done that anyway, given just a BSD copyright notice and no licence. And when redistributing, you can just continue to bundle the BSD licence, now made meaningless by this "we're not telling you what pieces" disclaimer. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 7 3: 6:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876E637B404 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 03:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0091.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.91] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16u9Z3-0006bS-00; Sun, 07 Apr 2002 03:06:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB01A09.C86F98FC@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 03:06:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <20020406105111.A90057@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEDDD2.2ADA819F@mindspring.com> <20020406114505.GA2576@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEE4A1.315CF53@mindspring.com> <20020406191209.GA3203@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAF8204.5E93CE38@mindspring.com> <20020407084801.GA4429@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > As for re-licensing under the GPL -- you'd still be obliged to put the > > > BSD licence in there, so it would really be dual-licensing, not > > > re-licensing. > > > > Not quite. A dual license can only work if you are permitted > > to drop one ("either under the terms of A _or_ under the terms > > of _B_"). You can never drop the BSD license terms from the > > code, without an assignment of rights, or the permission of the > > authors. > > So why can't the GNU people do the same thing you say Microsoft can do > -- trivially modify the source (add GNU-style long command-line > options?) or even leave it totally unmodified, include the BSD > licence, and say "the BSD licence applies to part or all of this code, > but we're not telling you what, you have to find out for yourself." Because they've poison-pilled their license with the second to last sentence of section 6, of course: You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein. It is the GPL, not the BSD license, which prevents GPL'ing BSD or other supposedly "compatibly licensed" code. > That looks, to me, like effectively dropping the BSD licence terms, > since you don't know what they apply to; sure you can find out with > some research, but you could have done that anyway, given just a BSD > copyright notice and no licence. And when redistributing, you can > just continue to bundle the BSD licence, now made meaningless by this > "we're not telling you what pieces" disclaimer. Wrong. Without explicit delineation of what it applies to, you must assume it applies to everything, not that it applies to nothing -- else why would it be there at all? USL recognized this in their license. If you have access to a SVR4 derived machine that was shipped after the USL vs. UCB settlement, look at the license on the header files. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 7 3:12:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18D1A37B405 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 03:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-6-62-147-150-233.dial.proxad.net [62.147.150.233]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3A7FAB552 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 12:12:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 4691 invoked by uid 1001); 7 Apr 2002 10:12:24 -0000 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 12:12:24 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? Message-ID: <20020407101223.GA4647@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <20020406105111.A90057@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEDDD2.2ADA819F@mindspring.com> <20020406114505.GA2576@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEE4A1.315CF53@mindspring.com> <20020406191209.GA3203@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAF8204.5E93CE38@mindspring.com> <20020407084801.GA4429@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB01A09.C86F98FC@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CB01A09.C86F98FC@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 7, 2002 at 03:06:01: > > > That looks, to me, like effectively dropping the BSD licence terms, > > since you don't know what they apply to; sure you can find out with > > some research, but you could have done that anyway, given just a BSD > > copyright notice and no licence. And when redistributing, you can > > just continue to bundle the BSD licence, now made meaningless by this > > "we're not telling you what pieces" disclaimer. > > Wrong. Without explicit delineation of what it applies to, > you must assume it applies to everything, not that it applies > to nothing -- else why would it be there at all? That was precisely my point with respect to Microsoft: without explicit delineation, how do they (a) include the BSD licence, (b) not imply that it applies to everything they're shipping? To quote from your earlier mail: I wrote > > For your own protection, if you're Microsoft you must make it > > explicitly clear exactly what the BSD licence applies to -- it > > clearly applies to something you're shipping; and surely you can't > > say "this licence applies to some code in our ftp binary, but not > > to the binary as a whole, and if you want to know exactly what it > > applies to and thus take advantage of this licence, you have to go > > find the relevant pieces of source code for yourself; we won't > > help you." To which you wrote: > Sure they can say that. Why couldn't they? Well, can they or can't they? If they can, why can't the GNU folks? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 7 3:15:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C85537B405 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 03:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0107.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.107] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16u9ho-0005YO-00; Sun, 07 Apr 2002 03:15:29 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB01C27.CA0B2600@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 03:15:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ian Pulsford Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <3CAEFFAA.91525BB3@optusnet.com.au> <3CAF74A9.135485DA@mindspring.com> <3CAFA609.32DD89E4@optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ian Pulsford wrote: > But surely, strictly speaking, you can't? That is correct. I and many others have stated this opinion before. > Adding a license is not one a right you get automatically when you > get a piece of code. You can sublicense, depending on the original license of the code, and whther the new license permits the old license to remain, or requires that it be removed (in which case, you can not use the new license for the work itself, only for the aggregate (if there is one), or if the original author makes the change. > Actually I reread the GPL carefully a little while ago and I > am not convinced that you need to give everything distributed > with GPLed software a GPL. I think this is a misunderstanding > that has gotten out of control. Depends on what you mean by "with"... > In section 2 of the GPL: > > "These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If > identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and > can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in > themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those > sections when you distribute them as separate works. But when you *********************************************** > distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based on > the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this > License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the entire > whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote it." > > This doesn't say you have to give separate works the GPL license only > that you have to distribute it under the same terms while it is part of > a GPLed package. That's right. If they are part of the whole, then you must GPL all the parts. You introduce some reinterpretation when you use the word "package" here, since it could mean "a package which agregates seperate works"; the GPL specifically states that it doesn't apply to "mere aggregations" (last paragraph of section 2). Your introduced wording is not part of the GPL. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 7 3:27:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAACA37B416 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 03:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0107.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.107] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16u9tC-0000tC-00; Sun, 07 Apr 2002 03:27:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB01EE9.99E0813E@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 03:26:49 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <20020406105111.A90057@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEDDD2.2ADA819F@mindspring.com> <20020406114505.GA2576@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEE4A1.315CF53@mindspring.com> <20020406191209.GA3203@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAF8204.5E93CE38@mindspring.com> <20020407084801.GA4429@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB01A09.C86F98FC@mindspring.com> <20020407101223.GA4647@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Terry Lambert said on Apr 7, 2002 at 03:06:01: > > > That looks, to me, like effectively dropping the BSD licence terms, > > > since you don't know what they apply to; sure you can find out with > > > some research, but you could have done that anyway, given just a BSD > > > copyright notice and no licence. And when redistributing, you can > > > just continue to bundle the BSD licence, now made meaningless by this > > > "we're not telling you what pieces" disclaimer. > > > > Wrong. Without explicit delineation of what it applies to, > > you must assume it applies to everything, not that it applies > > to nothing -- else why would it be there at all? > > That was precisely my point with respect to Microsoft: without > explicit delineation, how do they (a) include the BSD licence, > (b) not imply that it applies to everything they're shipping? By including it in the documentation, and indicating "portions of this software contain code licensed under the following license". The assumption that it applies to everything has to be made with a logical OR, not a logocal XOR, of restrictions. And since the GPL in section 6 prohibits additional restrictions, it prohibits such combinations of code. > > > For your own protection, if you're Microsoft you must make it > > > explicitly clear exactly what the BSD licence applies to -- it > > > clearly applies to something you're shipping; and surely you can't > > > say "this licence applies to some code in our ftp binary, but not > > > to the binary as a whole, and if you want to know exactly what it > > > applies to and thus take advantage of this licence, you have to go > > > find the relevant pieces of source code for yourself; we won't > > > help you." > > To which you wrote: > > > Sure they can say that. Why couldn't they? > > Well, can they or can't they? They can say that it applies to portions of the code. > If they can, why can't the GNU folks? It's not possible to do this and remain in compliance with the GPL. The GPL can not say that it applies to portions of the code, since that would mean that the whole is either in violation of the additional restrictions clause in section 6 of the GPL: 4. You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or distribute the Program except as expressly provided under this License. Any attempt otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense or distribute the Program is void, and will automatically terminate your rights under this License. However, parties who have received copies, or rights, from you under this License will not have their licenses terminated so long as such parties remain in full compliance. Or it is in violation of (2)(b) of the GPL: 2. b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License. Thus no matter how you approach it, you are making a non-compliant combination through exercise of your rights granted by the GPL, and doing so terminates those rights. It is therefore not possible to legally create such derivative works of both GPL'ed and BSD licensed code. The LGPL is another matter, entirely: so long as you can satisfy the relink clause, you are fine: the LGPL has fewer restrictions on derivative works. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 7 17:47:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95F0937B404 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 17:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0315.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.60] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16uNJm-00030i-00; Sun, 07 Apr 2002 17:47:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB0E88E.828850F7@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 17:47:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Pavelcak Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <3CAE30C6.51C811DA@mindspring.com> <20020407211321.GA223@tower.my.domain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Pavelcak wrote: > On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:18:30PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Greg Pavelcak wrote: > > > For my own peace of mind, could someone provide an example where S uses A, > > > but S does not utilize A. Or the other way 'round. > > > > "Bob used the GNU source code to produce a derivative work, > > but he never utilized the resulting binary". > > Bzzzzzzzt! That's a case where S uses A but does not utilize B. Maybe you missed the source distribution/binary distribution equivalence that the GPL attempts to establish. According to the GPL B := A, or you don't have license to either. It's an all or none proposition. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 7 18:24:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD8337B419 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 18:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B32FBD2E; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 18:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04378; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 18:24:10 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g381O9883878; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 18:24:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hold Harmless (was: Anti-Unix Site Runs Unix) References: <20020402113404.A52321@lpt.ens.fr> <3CA9854E.A4D86CC4@mindspring.com> <20020402123254.H49279@lpt.ens.fr> <009301c1da83$9fa73170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <15530.6987.977637.574551@guru.mired.org> <3CAAAA98.E9D7EBE6@mindspring.com> <3CAB69B8.2817604E@mindspring.com> <3CACFDE5.7EB9FECA@mindspring.com> <3CAD3A14.3C5ED003@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 07 Apr 2002 18:24:09 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3CAD3A14.3C5ED003@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <7z8z7z0ypy.z7z@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 138 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > ... But I guess I need to read the DMCA. Argh. > > Yep. You need to read it. It makes "shrink wrap" licenses > valid, which means that you can put them inside the box, > and are bound by it because you opened the box, whether > you read the license or not. I understood them to be valid before DMCA, because of unified state (commercial and contract) laws, except in the minds of a few judges who needed the new law. But I've read many lay opinions that most free software does not qualify as "shrink wrapped" and I at least agree with them that most free software licenses do not even cover the right to run software. The DMCA is about copyrights. Maybe in the bargin it allows restrictions on other rights (like the right to publish benchmarks or even to simply run the software) by a copyright-protecting license (something that plain contract law has been used for), but the BSDL and GPL do not incorporate such restrictions on non-copyrights like running. > > > Yes. Like the consideration that you not use my name in > > > advertising, or the consideration that you hold me harmless. > > > > For the purposes of the argument, yes, like that; but not even such > > low-value consideration is involved in the "running" of PD or BSDL'd (or > > GPL'd) software (assuming the DMCA doesn't forbid it). > > For PD, that's true... that's the whole point, really: there > is no contract, therefore there is no hold harmless. This is > because even though you have stuck a notice on it, the access > to the code is not subject to the consideration of compliance > with the license. PD, by definition, doesn't have contingent > access. The access to BSDL'd and GPL'd software doesn't have contingent access either. Only contingent distribution. And once I access it, the 17USC117 allows me to run it (possibly damaging myself so I can sue somebody). I think you admitted that twice in a subsequent message. The only question is whether the DMCA causes a disclaimer on BSDL'd or GPL'd software to be of any more use than it is on PD software, namely the use as notice to the public of conditions that are hoped to exist regardless of the notice (mainly to fend off frivolous suits and to reduce judgements/money when the conditions don't exist). All this despite the fact that these licenses (and copyright law) don't restrict the running of this kind of software. > [...] The licenses are > the only things that *permit*. By default, Copyright restricts > all use and utilization. This is because installation requires > copying (for traditional installation; it would be interesting > to see whether a bootable CDROM is considered "copying into > memory"... it would also be interesting to see if such loading > into memory constitutes "first use" or subsequent use; the > backup provisions only apply to "first use"). Read 17USC117 (again?) and see if you still want to say that. I don't see how. I've read what I'm sure are the relevant parts of 17USC and the list of protected rights does not include "running" with 117 making the necessary copying that you refer to also not protected. > I think what you wanted to say is that PD authors should be > permitted to obtain equal protection against litigation by > disclaiming warranties and fitness. No; that's what YOU wanted to say (and I agree). I wanted to say that they DO have equal protection for the case of RUNNING BSDL and GPL software. Good (though not well documented) protection, I think, but maybe equally poor. > The answer is: they are > not entitled to disclaim them without a contract, in which > the recipient permits them to disclaim them as part of the > consideration. > This is why, in order to encourage PD works, there needs to > be special consideration in the law to implicitly disclaim, > by default, such things which are normally reasonably and > customarily disclaimed. The law already considers the value of a contracts consideration. But for what I'm discussing, there IS no contract and so the consideration is zero and so the liability should be zero. Of course one must judge one's risks before trusting one's beliefs. > You *might* be able to get away with something like: > > "Subject to the following conditions, this code is > placed in the public domain" I've seen people do it, but it's no more in the public domain than a Disney cartoon. > I don't think that this would work, in practice, however, > since "Public Domain" has special legal meaning. I'm not as sure as I once was about that. I've seen IP lawyers use it differently than you and I. It might actually be that it is legitimate to say "the deceased author's book has entered the public domain" even though "the deceased author's copyrights are not yet in the public domain". > By making > your placement in the public domain subject to terms, you > are implying a contract with all of society, which I don't > think you can do, even if the DMCA were found to be fully > enforcible. THis is the interpretation that RIAA and MPAA > is trying to enforce with DVD and the DMCA. It doesn't even make sense. The condition is clearly on individuals; else the public has to act in unison and give any person veto power. > > But I think both cases are essentially the same regarding a disclaimer > > for 17USC117 "use" because both may be legally obtained and "used" > > without ever even seeing the disclaimer. Either both are at significant > > legal risk, or neither are mostly because of the lack of or low value of > > consideration or for practical/sociological reasons. > > You have to read the code in order to prepare a derivative > work. I think your claim might be correct, with regard to > binaries. > > However, the UCBL requires that the license notice accompany > distribution for the distribution to be legal, so one can > argue that it's legally contingent on the acceptance of the > license by the recipient, and that enforcement of acceptance > is the responsibility of the distributor. Please explain the "so" in your statement. I don't get it. Or argue it with other evidence. I know of no reason why I should have to accept a license of copyrights to exersize a right (running) which is not a copyright. BTW, the UCBL does NOT require what you say it does. It requires that you redistribute the copyright, the list of conditions, and the disclaimer. There's nothing there about redistributing the permission notice! Do you suppose there was a reason for listing all but that? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 7 19:11:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ECCA37B419 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 19:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A709BD90; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 19:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA14694; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 19:11:38 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g382BaK84436; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 19:11:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Terry Lambert , Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <20020406105111.A90057@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEDDD2.2ADA819F@mindspring.com> <20020406114505.GA2576@lpt.ens.fr> <3CAEE4A1.315CF53@mindspring.com> <20020406191209.GA3203@lpt.ens.fr> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 07 Apr 2002 19:11:36 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20020406191209.GA3203@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Lines: 35 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > OK, I think the point is this. You got the BSD code under the BSD > licence, which is the file /COPYRIGHT in FreeBSD. > > The sentence > 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright > notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. > must be interpreted to mean the entire file, up to and including the > disclaimer in capital letters, should be included in redistribution, > either as part of the source files or as part of the documentation. > Effectively, you must ship the BSD licence with your project. > If that statement is wrong, I'd like to know exactly why. The license doesn't say "the entire file, up to and including the discalaimer", as you observed. There's no good reason to interprete it strangely; in fact the fact that there is an itemized list of what must be restributed is a good reason to interprete it as excluding something(s). So it seem clear to me that one doesn't have to ship and exact copy of the BSD license text with one's project. (One might as well, though; keep reading.) But parts or all of the the code that you ship with your project might still be covered by other's copyrights and BSD license, regardless of whether you include copies of the license or the copyright notices. People are not allowed to publish copies or derivatives of others' code without their license to do so -- period. When you derive from others' copyrighted code you share ownership of rights in the derivative, with attendent complications of shared ownership. The big difference between the BSDL and the GPL and LGPL is that the BSDL allows you to distribute binaries (in which ownership is shared) without being required to distribute YOUR source under somebody else's license. There are less important differences regarding modified source code, etc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 7 20: 8:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF5CE37B400 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 20:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A68B9BD2C; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 20:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA26764; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 20:08:33 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g3838RW85116; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 20:08:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <3CAEFFAA.91525BB3@optusnet.com.au> <3CAF74A9.135485DA@mindspring.com> <3CAFA609.32DD89E4@optusnet.com.au> <3CB01C27.CA0B2600@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 07 Apr 2002 20:08:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3CB01C27.CA0B2600@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 32 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Ian Pulsford wrote: > > > Adding a license is not one a right you get automatically when you > > get a piece of code. You don't need the right (unless the license makes that a condition of "getting" the piece of code). Everyone has already been given license to publish the other person's code (and his work in derivatives) and you'll license your own work in the derivative (under your own license which must be compatible in certain ways). No problem for most licensors who use straightforward licenses (including very open and very closed ones, but not including copyleft-implementing ones). > You can sublicense, depending on the original license of the > code, and whther the new license permits the old license to > remain, or requires that it be removed (in which case, you > can not use the new license for the work itself, only for the > aggregate (if there is one), or if the original author makes > the change. Let's remember that the presence or absence of licensing text may have no bearing on whether or not there is license or a license contract. (And similarly with copyright notices.) The only licenses that really matter are ones that cannot be read; those given or traded somehow. Also, I think that a sublicense is not necessary since the whole world has already been licensed to use the code of interest. A license is only needed for the new part of the derivative. (17USC103: "The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such work, ...".) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 7 20:41:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7854437B405 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 20:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A451BCE3; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 20:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01120; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 20:41:25 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g383fO585505; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 20:41:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> <3CAF7FB9.3259C392@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 07 Apr 2002 20:41:24 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3CAF7FB9.3259C392@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > What people are normally protecting by not leaving papers > at McDonalds are trade secrets and proprietary business > information (product direction, etc.). I hope you won't mind my pointing out a redundancy there that strokes a pet peeve of mine the wrong way. :) Such business information is just a type of trade secrets -- business (trade) secrets. Trade secrets, patented ideas, service and trademarks, and copyrighted works are all forms of proprietary information (which has only recently also been referred to as intellectual property, BTW). Secrets are often proprietary information, but proprietary information is often not secret. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 7 21:12:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3A137B41A for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 21:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0444.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.189] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16uQVi-0003ck-00; Sun, 07 Apr 2002 21:12:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB1187C.3FA3D416@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 21:11:40 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <3CAEFFAA.91525BB3@optusnet.com.au> <3CAF74A9.135485DA@mindspring.com> <3CAFA609.32DD89E4@optusnet.com.au> <3CB01C27.CA0B2600@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Also, I think that a sublicense is not necessary since the whole world > has already been licensed to use the code of interest. A license is > only needed for the new part of the derivative. (17USC103: "The > copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the > material contributed by the author of such work, ...".) The sublicense is required, since it is the only license on the derivative works, unless the original license tries to propagate to new code(the legality of which has yet to be tested by a court). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 7 21:16: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AC5E37B405 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 21:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0444.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.189] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16uQZY-0007R5-00; Sun, 07 Apr 2002 21:16:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB1196B.403F465D@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 21:15:39 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> <3CAF7FB9.3259C392@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > What people are normally protecting by not leaving papers > > at McDonalds are trade secrets and proprietary business > > information (product direction, etc.). > > I hope you won't mind my pointing out a redundancy there that strokes a > pet peeve of mine the wrong way. :) Such business information is just a > type of trade secrets -- business (trade) secrets. Trade secrets, > patented ideas, service and trademarks, and copyrighted works are all > forms of proprietary information (which has only recently also been > referred to as intellectual property, BTW). Secrets are often > proprietary information, but proprietary information is often not > secret. And trade secrets are not necessarily proprietary; they can be distributed to a select group. The exclusive rights are retained by the proprieter, but the secrets themselves are distributed. This is the importance in the header file license in the USL header files being labelled as "unpublished". So it's not redundant to refer to both terms. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 7 22:36:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA83037B404 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 22:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D49BD34; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 22:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA26359; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 22:36:36 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g385aUI87056; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 22:36:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <3CAEFFAA.91525BB3@optusnet.com.au> <3CAF74A9.135485DA@mindspring.com> <3CAFA609.32DD89E4@optusnet.com.au> <3CB01C27.CA0B2600@mindspring.com> <3CB1187C.3FA3D416@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 07 Apr 2002 22:36:30 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3CB1187C.3FA3D416@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > Also, I think that a sublicense is not necessary since the whole world > > has already been licensed to use the code of interest. A license is > > only needed for the new part of the derivative. (17USC103: "The > > copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the > > material contributed by the author of such work, ...".) > > The sublicense is required, since it is the only license on the > derivative works, unless the original license tries to propagate > to new code(the legality of which has yet to be tested by a > court). Read my above quote of 17USC103 again and consider the example of the UCB license which includes: "Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted[...]". There's your license from that guy on his copyrights in the derivative work. Add your license from the deriver on the deriver's work in the derivative and no other license on the derivative is required. No propagation or court test is needed, because of the language of the UCBL and the fact that it is a license to everyone, not just the deriver. Similarly for the BSDL. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 7 22:57:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 372CB37B404 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 22:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0C71BD34; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 22:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA30599; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 22:57:15 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g385vD287305; Sun, 7 Apr 2002 22:57:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> <3CAF7FB9.3259C392@mindspring.com> <3CB1196B.403F465D@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 07 Apr 2002 22:57:13 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3CB1196B.403F465D@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <26g026zq9y.026@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > And trade secrets are not necessarily proprietary; they can > be distributed to a select group. The exclusive rights are > retained by the proprieter, but the secrets themselves are > distributed. Trade secrets are proprietary by law. Your example contradicts your claim when you say "the exclusive rights are retained by the proprieter". How can you say that for an example of something that's not proprietary? Been reading at fsf.org too long? :-) Distribution is irrelevant, like it is with copyright. (You may distribute your copy of a book to many people as long as you don't distribute it to the public.) The funny thing that you observed is that not even trade secrets are necessarily secret, in some sense. (Of course, when they become available to the general public (or become widely known?), they loose their protected trade secret status, IIRC.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 0:25:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A6B937B405 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 00:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0021.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.21] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16uTX9-0005Vw-00; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 00:25:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB145E1.55790DC1@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 00:25:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Ian Pulsford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <3CAEFFAA.91525BB3@optusnet.com.au> <3CAF74A9.135485DA@mindspring.com> <3CAFA609.32DD89E4@optusnet.com.au> <3CB01C27.CA0B2600@mindspring.com> <3CB1187C.3FA3D416@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Read my above quote of 17USC103 again and consider the example of the > UCB license which includes: "Redistribution and use in source and binary > forms, with or without modification, are permitted[...]". There's your > license from that guy on his copyrights in the derivative work. Add > your license from the deriver on the deriver's work in the derivative > and no other license on the derivative is required. No propagation or > court test is needed, because of the language of the UCBL and the fact > that it is a license to everyone, not just the deriver. Similarly for > the BSDL. I guess you are now violently agreeing with me? 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 0:47:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4432C37B405 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 00:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0021.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.21] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16uTsQ-00039B-00; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 00:47:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB14B08.91041978@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 00:47:20 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> <3CAF7FB9.3259C392@mindspring.com> <3CB1196B.403F465D@mindspring.com> <26g026zq9y.026@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > And trade secrets are not necessarily proprietary; they can > > be distributed to a select group. The exclusive rights are > > retained by the proprieter, but the secrets themselves are > > distributed. > > Trade secrets are proprietary by law. Your example contradicts your > claim when you say "the exclusive rights are retained by the > proprieter". How can you say that for an example of something that's > not proprietary? Been reading at fsf.org too long? :-) Distribution is > irrelevant, like it is with copyright. (You may distribute your copy of > a book to many people as long as you don't distribute it to the public.) > > The funny thing that you observed is that not even trade secrets are > necessarily secret, in some sense. (Of course, when they become > available to the general public (or become widely known?), they loose > their protected trade secret status, IIRC.) Yes. This is why I stated "distributed to a select group" in my statement. The term "select group" has special legal meaning. The thing about trade secrets is that there has been this ongoing attempt to equate them with some sort of legal protection for the information. In fact, trade secrets are *not* legally protected, per se; the only legal protection they have is the ability to claim damages against the discloser. This is one of the reasons the USL lawsuit was irrelelevent, and why the Judge in the case explicitly recommended that USL pursue some means fo settlement, because they would lose on many of their arguments (this preliminary opinion was one of the last public documents published in the case). Once a trade secret is disclosed -- *however it is disclosed* -- then it is *lost forever*. The only thing you can sue over is breach of contract by the discloser, and then you can collect damages against them relative to their responsibility for the disclosure. If someone *independently* arrives at the same solution to a problem (e.g. making red art glass, or a particular approach to a computational problem), then it's *not* disclosure of a trade secret at all. "Proprietary", in this case, means: something that is used, produced, or marketed under exclusive legal right of the inventor or maker; specifically : a drug (as a patent medicine) that is protected by secrecy, patent, or copyright against free competition as to name, product, composition, or process of manufacture When code embodying trade secrets is licensed to a third party, trade secrets are different than patents or copyrights, in that the licensing of the code makes the licensee a propritor as well (unless the license was written by a total idiot). Hence the proliferation of the NDAs in the software industry, and the common publication of API and "developer kits", to gain protction through copyright and other stronger means ...e.g. you can statuatory damages and attorney's fees if your copyright on materials is registered in the U.S. is violated: http://www.loc.gov/copyright/faq.html#q14 If you come down to it, actually, the attempts at extension of trade secret law to attempt to include stautory damages is actually a bigger threat than software patents. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 2:24:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF52037B404 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 02:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g389OLa18526 ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 11:24:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA91348 ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 11:24:09 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 11:24:09 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Mark Murray Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020408112409.A90467@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Mark Murray , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CAEE006.F36598B1@mindspring.com> <200204061202.g36C2aPL036777@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200204061202.g36C2aPL036777@grimreaper.grondar.org>; from mark@grondar.za on Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 01:02:36PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray said on Apr 6, 2002 at 13:02:36: > > If they distinguished "use" and "utilization" of the code, > > then it would be much clearer, IMO. > > > > Maybe it's just because I'm a native English speaker, and > > most of the people who argue that "use" and "utilize" are > > "the same" are not... if they're synonyms to the rest of > > the world, then I think that it needs to excplicitly and > > seperately identify which "use" is being talked about where. > > "I will use it" == "I will utilise it". > "It has no use" == "It has no utility". > > "Use/use/use" and "utilize/utility/utilization" are exact synonyms > with different conventional uses. > > BTW - I am a native English speaker too. My English is "Colonial > English", very close to British English. And I learned English in India, it's basically British English too -- at least in its "formal" version; the slang is very different. Terry, on the other hand, is a native speaker of American which is not really English :) On a recent visit to the US I kept getting bitten by this. For instance, when put on hold on the telephone, they said "an operator will be with you momentarily" -- I later learned that "momentarily" has a different meaning in the US. And then in a restaurant, looking at the menu I remarked that this seemed to be only appetizers and entrées, and was told that in the US, "entrée" means "main course". "Toilet" is a dirty word. And so on... So I thought it was indeed possible that Americans mean something different by "utilize" and "use". But Merriam-Webster says otherwise. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 2:36:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26B8637B422 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 02:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0083.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.83] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16uVZf-0001Gb-00; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 02:36:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB1646C.9DF12B4F@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 02:35:40 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CAEE006.F36598B1@mindspring.com> <200204061202.g36C2aPL036777@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20020408112409.A90467@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: [ ... amusing anecdote about the difference between "American" and "English" ... ] > So I thought it was indeed possible that Americans mean something > different by "utilize" and "use". But Merriam-Webster says otherwise. Some of us don't condone recent changes in Merriam-Webster, and prefer thew 1913 edition. Luckily, it is the people, not the dctionary companies, which define the language. For the authoritative source for legal use of words, it really comes down to what the definition of the word was when the legislation was passed and/or when the lawyers who wrote the license went to school. Thus my preferred source for "American English" is: http://humanities.uchicago.edu/forms_unrest/webster.form.html ...but mainly, I prefer the OED; unfortunately, if you want access to the online copy, you have to buy a hardcopy or subscribe (only unfortunately for those who don't do either, I suppose). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 2:47: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0AF037B400 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 02:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g389l3a22070 ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 11:47:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA92772 ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 11:47:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 11:47:03 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020408114703.C85215@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CAEE006.F36598B1@mindspring.com> <200204061202.g36C2aPL036777@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20020408112409.A90467@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB1646C.9DF12B4F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CB1646C.9DF12B4F@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 02:35:40AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 8, 2002 at 02:35:40: > > For the authoritative source for legal use of words, it really > comes down to what the definition of the word was when the > legislation was passed and/or when the lawyers who wrote the > license went to school. Thus my preferred source for "American > English" is: > > http://humanities.uchicago.edu/forms_unrest/webster.form.html As you wish... The definition of "utilize" here is To make useful; to turn to profitable account or use; to make use of; as, to utilize the whole power of a machine; to utilize one's opportunities. The relevant definition of "use" is 1. To make use of; to convert to one's service; to avail one's self of; to employ; to put a purpose; as, to use a plow; to use a chair; to use time; to use flour for food; to use water for irrigation. So tell us again, why is "using software" different from "utilizing software"? Why does one imply using the source code and the other imply using it as an application -- in fact I've forgotten now, which is supposed to be which? Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 3:12:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9ACA337B41C for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 03:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 77756 invoked by uid 100); 8 Apr 2002 10:12:14 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15537.27900.657935.755062@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 05:12:12 -0500 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mark Murray , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize In-Reply-To: <20020408112409.A90467@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3CAEE006.F36598B1@mindspring.com> <200204061202.g36C2aPL036777@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20020408112409.A90467@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: Mike Meyer X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.51 (Python 2.2 on FreeBSD/i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <20020408112409.A90467@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan typed: > Mark Murray said on Apr 6, 2002 at 13:02:36: > > BTW - I am a native English speaker too. My English is "Colonial > > English", very close to British English. > And I learned English in India, it's basically British English too -- > at least in its "formal" version; the slang is very different. > > Terry, on the other hand, is a native speaker of American which is not > really English :) More accurately, none of the American dialects are really English. I've encountered at least four version of the third person plural in the US. > So I thought it was indeed possible that Americans mean something > different by "utilize" and "use". But Merriam-Webster says otherwise. I agree with that. But there may be an American dialect for which it's not true. In particlar, they may have a legal meaning totally different from any meaning in common use. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 4:33:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A18C837B41A for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 04:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id F1EB3757C; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 04:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D93CE1D98; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 04:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 04:33:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? In-Reply-To: <3CB01A09.C86F98FC@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: :Rahul Siddharthan wrote: :> That looks, to me, like effectively dropping the BSD licence terms, :> since you don't know what they apply to; sure you can find out with :> some research, but you could have done that anyway, given just a BSD :> copyright notice and no licence. And when redistributing, you can :> just continue to bundle the BSD licence, now made meaningless by this :> "we're not telling you what pieces" disclaimer. :Wrong. Without explicit delineation of what it applies to, :you must assume it applies to everything, not that it applies :to nothing -- else why would it be there at all? :USL recognized this in their license. If you have access to a :SVR4 derived machine that was shipped after the USL vs. UCB :settlement, look at the license on the header files. %uname -aR IRIX64 banshee 6.5 6.5.15m 01091821 IP25 This is from /usr/include/errno.h: /* * * Copyright 1992-1997 Silicon Graphics, Inc. * All Rights Reserved. * * This is UNPUBLISHED PROPRIETARY SOURCE CODE of Silicon Graphics, Inc.; * the contents of this file may not be disclosed to third parties, copied or * duplicated in any form, in whole or in part, without the prior written * permission of Silicon Graphics, Inc. * * RESTRICTED RIGHTS LEGEND: * Use, duplication or disclosure by the Government is subject to restrictions * as set forth in subdivision (c)(1)(ii) of the Rights in Technical Data * and Computer Software clause at DFARS 252.227-7013, and/or in similar or * successor clauses in the FAR, DOD or NASA FAR Supplement. Unpublished - * rights reserved under the Copyright Laws of the United States. */ /* Copyright (c) 1988 AT&T */ /* All Rights Reserved */ /* THIS IS UNPUBLISHED PROPRIETARY SOURCE CODE OF AT&T */ /* The copyright notice above does not evidence any */ /* actual or intended publication of such source code. */ What are we supposed to see? Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 4:35:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 650D437B400 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 04:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0083.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.83] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16uXQm-0004RU-00; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 04:35:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB1805B.D5E56F08@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 04:34:51 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CAEE006.F36598B1@mindspring.com> <200204061202.g36C2aPL036777@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20020408112409.A90467@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB1646C.9DF12B4F@mindspring.com> <20020408114703.C85215@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > As you wish... The definition of "utilize" here is > To make useful; to turn to profitable account or use; to make use of; > as, to utilize the whole power of a machine; to utilize one's > opportunities. > > The relevant definition of "use" is > 1. To make use of; to convert to one's service; to avail one's self > of; to employ; to put a purpose; as, to use a plow; to use a chair; to > use time; to use flour for food; to use water for irrigation. > > So tell us again, why is "using software" different from "utilizing > software"? Why does one imply using the source code and the other > imply using it as an application -- in fact I've forgotten now, which > is supposed to be which? Because: o That dictionary has 4 definitions for the transitive verb "use" and 1 definition for the transitive verb "utilize", so you are ignoring the other 3 definitions o That dictionary also has 2 definitions for the intransitive verb "use" and 9 definitions for the noun "use", which you also ignore. o The word "use" is not employed as an intransitive verb in all cases of which I speak, and therefore you can not replace it with the word "utilize" and have the same meaning. Basically, there is only one of 15 definitions of "use" which match the definition of "utilize". Thus you have a 7% chance of having the one which is "synonymous", for any given random example. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 4:38:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 310C137B416 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 04:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0083.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.83] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16uXTS-00061g-00; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 04:38:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB18101.A13A693E@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 04:37:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CAEE006.F36598B1@mindspring.com> <200204061202.g36C2aPL036777@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20020408112409.A90467@lpt.ens.fr> <15537.27900.657935.755062@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > I agree with that. But there may be an American dialect for which it's > not true. In particlar, they may have a legal meaning totally > different from any meaning in common use. ^^^ - noun... definition 9(*) (*) Not a synonym for "utilize" -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 4:41:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510EE37B400 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 04:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0083.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.83] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16uXWv-0000Fq-00; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 04:41:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB181D8.AD797C8A@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 04:41:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Bowden Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden wrote: > :USL recognized this in their license. If you have access to a > :SVR4 derived machine that was shipped after the USL vs. UCB > :settlement, look at the license on the header files. [ ... ] > /* > * > * Copyright 1992-1997 Silicon Graphics, Inc. > * All Rights Reserved. > * > * This is UNPUBLISHED PROPRIETARY SOURCE CODE of Silicon Graphics, Inc.; > * the contents of this file may not be disclosed to third parties, copied > or > * duplicated in any form, in whole or in part, without the prior written > * permission of Silicon Graphics, Inc. > * > * RESTRICTED RIGHTS LEGEND: > * Use, duplication or disclosure by the Government is subject to > restrictions > * as set forth in subdivision (c)(1)(ii) of the Rights in Technical Data > * and Computer Software clause at DFARS 252.227-7013, and/or in similar or > * successor clauses in the FAR, DOD or NASA FAR Supplement. Unpublished - > * rights reserved under the Copyright Laws of the United States. > */ > /* Copyright (c) 1988 AT&T */ > /* All Rights Reserved */ > > /* THIS IS UNPUBLISHED PROPRIETARY SOURCE CODE OF AT&T */ > /* The copyright notice above does not evidence any */ > /* actual or intended publication of such source code. */ > > What are we supposed to see? If the header was derived from BSD code, you are supposed to see compliance with the BSD license, in the form of its inclusion *after* the USL license. That you have an AT&T license indicates that this code was published after the SVR4.0.1, but before the UCB/USL settlement, which included the propert attribution of UCB in the copyright notices in source files, including system header files. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 4:52:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6A9A37B405 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 04:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g38Bqma41190 ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 13:52:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA98699 ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 13:52:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 13:52:47 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020408135247.F85215@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CAEE006.F36598B1@mindspring.com> <200204061202.g36C2aPL036777@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20020408112409.A90467@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB1646C.9DF12B4F@mindspring.com> <20020408114703.C85215@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB1805B.D5E56F08@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CB1805B.D5E56F08@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 04:34:51AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 8, 2002 at 04:34:51: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > As you wish... The definition of "utilize" here is > > To make useful; to turn to profitable account or use; to make use of; > > as, to utilize the whole power of a machine; to utilize one's > > opportunities. > > > > The relevant definition of "use" is > > 1. To make use of; to convert to one's service; to avail one's self > > of; to employ; to put a purpose; as, to use a plow; to use a chair; to > > use time; to use flour for food; to use water for irrigation. > > > > So tell us again, why is "using software" different from "utilizing > > software"? Why does one imply using the source code and the other > > imply using it as an application -- in fact I've forgotten now, which > > is supposed to be which? > > Because: > > o That dictionary has 4 definitions for the transitive verb > "use" and 1 definition for the transitive verb "utilize", > so you are ignoring the other 3 definitions Because they don't apply to the phrase "using software". > o That dictionary also has 2 definitions for the intransitive > verb "use" and 9 definitions for the noun "use", which you > also ignore. Because they don't apply to the phrase "using software". > o The word "use" is not employed as an intransitive verb in > all cases of which I speak, and therefore you can not > replace it with the word "utilize" and have the same > meaning. Because these cases don't apply to the phrase "using software". > Basically, there is only one of 15 definitions of "use" which match > the definition of "utilize". And this is the only one which applies to the phrase "using software". > Thus you have a 7% chance of having > the one which is "synonymous", for any given random example. We don't use this phrase randomly. "Using software" does not mean "wearing out software" or "taking unfair advantage of software" or any of the other 14 definitions. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 5:31:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from oitunix.oit.umass.edu (som-456.dhcp.umass.edu [128.119.137.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E123A37B41B for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 05:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gp@localhost) by oitunix.oit.umass.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g38CVB565673; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 08:31:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gp) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 08:31:11 -0400 From: Greg Pavelcak To: Terry Lambert Cc: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020408123111.GA65569@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> Mail-Followup-To: Greg Pavelcak , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <3CAE30C6.51C811DA@mindspring.com> <20020407211321.GA223@tower.my.domain> <3CB0E88E.828850F7@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CB0E88E.828850F7@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 05:47:10PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Greg Pavelcak wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 05, 2002 at 03:18:30PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Greg Pavelcak wrote: > > > > For my own peace of mind, could someone provide an example where S uses A, > > > > but S does not utilize A. Or the other way 'round. > > > > > > "Bob used the GNU source code to produce a derivative work, > > > but he never utilized the resulting binary". > > > > Bzzzzzzzt! That's a case where S uses A but does not utilize B. > > Maybe you missed the source distribution/binary distribution > equivalence that the GPL attempts to establish. According > to the GPL B := A, or you don't have license to either. It's > an all or none proposition. > > -- Terry > I can assure you I missed it. I haven't read the GPL. That doesn't make this an example of what I was looking for. The issue at hand for me is whether cases of use and of utilization are coextensive. If they are, then, even if they have different meanings, I don't see how the distinction could be very interesting legally. Whether the GPL conflates source code and binaries is a complication unrelated to the question I originally posed. I should have said `Ignoring the GPL for the moment ...' Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 5:36:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BB0237B419 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 05:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (uucp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g38CaXS6004492; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 13:36:33 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) with UUCP id g38CaWe6004491; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 13:36:32 +0100 (BST) Received: from grimreaper (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g38CWKPL054578; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 13:32:20 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200204081232.g38CWKPL054578@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CB18101.A13A693E@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3CB18101.A13A693E@mindspring.com> ; from Terry Lambert "Mon, 08 Apr 2002 04:37:37 PDT." Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 13:32:20 +0100 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Mike Meyer wrote: > > I agree with that. But there may be an American dialect for which it's > > not true. In particlar, they may have a legal meaning totally > > different from any meaning in common use. > ^^^ - noun... definition 9(*) > > (*) Not a synonym for "utilize" But "utilization" is a synonym. [ Please keep trimming the cc: I get the mailing list. ] M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 6: 6:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 850D037B41B for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 06:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g38D6ca52314 ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:06:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA02903 ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:06:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:06:38 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? Message-ID: <20020408150638.I85215@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CB181D8.AD797C8A@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CB181D8.AD797C8A@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 04:41:12AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 8, 2002 at 04:41:12: > Jamie Bowden wrote: > > :USL recognized this in their license. If you have access to a > > :SVR4 derived machine that was shipped after the USL vs. UCB > > :settlement, look at the license on the header files. [snip] > > What are we supposed to see? > > If the header was derived from BSD code, you are supposed to > see compliance with the BSD license, in the form of its inclusion > *after* the USL license. I took a look at curses.h on a HP-UX machine. It contains the Berkeley copyright notice, but no BSD licence -- the "list of conditions" and "disclaimer" are missing. - Rahul #ifndef _XOPEN_CURSES #define _XOPEN_CURSES 1 #endif /* * (c) Copyright 1995 Hewlett-Packard Co., All Rights Reserved. */ /* * Copyright (c) 1994 * Novell, Inc. and International Business Machines Corp. All Rights Reserved. * THIS IS UNPUBLISHED PROPRIETARY SOURCE CODE OF Novell Inc. and * International Business Machines Corp. * The copyright notice above does not evidence any actual or intended * publication of such source code. */ /* * Copyright (c) 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1992, 1992, 1993, 199 4 * Novell, Inc. All Rights Reserved. * THIS IS UNPUBLISHED PROPRIETARY SOURCE CODE OF Novell Inc. * The copyright notice above does not evidence any * actual or intended publication of such source code. */ /* * Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1988 * The Regents of the University of California. All Rights Reserved. * Portions of this document are derived from software developed by the * University of California, Berkeley, and its contributors. */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 9:44: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ACF737B416 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 09:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 098C1BD42; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 09:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18021; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 09:44:00 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g38Ght595213; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 09:43:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> <3CAF7FB9.3259C392@mindspring.com> <3CB1196B.403F465D@mindspring.com> <26g026zq9y.026@localhost.localdomain> <3CB14B08.91041978@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 08 Apr 2002 09:43:54 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3CB14B08.91041978@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 37 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Proprietary", in this case, means: > > something that is used, produced, or marketed under > exclusive legal right of the inventor or maker; > specifically : a drug (as a patent medicine) that is > protected by secrecy, patent, or copyright against > free competition as to name, product, composition, > or process of manufacture That agrees with the 10 or so dictionaries I've seen (though most are more general and only imply those concepts by using the word "own"). (One problem: the proprietor need not be an inventor or maker; he often is simply a purchaser of the rights.) > When code embodying trade secrets is licensed to a third party, > trade secrets are different than patents or copyrights, in that > the licensing of the code makes the licensee a propritor as well > (unless the license was written by a total idiot). Not according to your definition above. Those licensees are granted non-exclusive rights, and so don't meet your definition's requirement regarding "exclusive legal right" while only the proprietor has the exclusive rights required by your definition. (It is possible to license away your exclusive rights (so you may be excluded), but that's uncommon and not what you were referring to (see your "as well").) > If you come down to it, actually, the attempts at extension of trade > secret law to attempt to include stautory damages is actually a > bigger threat than software patents. So if you violate my copyright license condition of use that requires you keep my secrets, then I may sue you for copyright infrigement which gives a me better deal in court. And maybe I'll also sue you for the trade secret disclosure too. Interesting. But it makes more sense than being allowed to sue you for publishing benchmark results. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 10:11:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F25E537B416 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 10:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25821; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 11:10:22 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020408110809.0382e4d0@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 11:10:15 -0600 To: Danny Howard , Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Baby(1) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20020406145354.D17676@pianosa.catch22.org> References: <200204060500.g3650sM84275@cwsys.cwsent.com> <200204060500.g3650sM84275@cwsys.cwsent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:53 PM 4/6/2002, Danny Howard wrote: >Man pages suck. No, it's baby(1) that sucks, actually. ;-) > Or, is it naming conventions. That, too. They need WOman pages as well as just man pages. ;-) >Baby terminates at forty >weeks? More like it takes forty weeks to fork and finally begin >consuming some serious resources. At which point, it disables sleep(1). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 12:35:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD0A537B41A for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 12:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7BEE13FCBF; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 21:34:59 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 21:34:59 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: Brett Glass Cc: Danny Howard , Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Baby(1) Message-ID: <20020408213459.A53828@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , Danny Howard , Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200204060500.g3650sM84275@cwsys.cwsent.com> <200204060500.g3650sM84275@cwsys.cwsent.com> <20020406145354.D17676@pianosa.catch22.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020408110809.0382e4d0@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="opJtzjQTFsWo+cga" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020408110809.0382e4d0@nospam.lariat.org>; from brett@lariat.org on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 11:10:15AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 11:10:15AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: Hi, >=20 > At which point, it disables sleep(1). >=20 Except when, for some reason, the mother process sends SIGABRT. Anyway, most sysadmins prefer sex(6) when under a debugger in order to avoid undesirable baby(1) forks :) Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8sfDinLctrNyFFPERAoHqAKDDeg9imIyS41NXNeRu7LkxLfmvhACfQM+H 25aOMJrCUme4VPqCRPN78nE= =YrIk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 14:58:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0244337B41B for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 14:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0490.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.235] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16uh9R-0003Yf-00; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 14:58:13 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB2125B.8F11C442@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 14:57:47 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CAEE006.F36598B1@mindspring.com> <200204061202.g36C2aPL036777@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20020408112409.A90467@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB1646C.9DF12B4F@mindspring.com> <20020408114703.C85215@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB1805B.D5E56F08@mindspring.com> <20020408135247.F85215@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Basically, there is only one of 15 definitions of "use" which match > > the definition of "utilize". > > And this is the only one which applies to the phrase "using software". Your definition is: v. i.(1) To make use of; to convert to one's service; to avail one's self of; to employ; to put a purpose; as, to use a plow; to use a chair; to use time; to use flour for food; to use water for irrigation. This is distinct from: v. i.(3) To practice customarily; to make a practice of; as, to use diligence in business. Definition 3 is what the GPL permits. The GPL does not permit "use" as in definition 1, as in "to use in the preparation of a derivative work for which source code is not subsequently made available". Therefore, I can not "utilize" the software for certain meanings of "put to use", even though I can "use" it. However, I can put up a web service derived from GPL'ed code, and allow people to "make a practice of" it, as in "to use web services in business". Thus I can "use", but not "utilize" the code, because of the license. > We don't use this phrase randomly. "Using software" does not mean > "wearing out software" or "taking unfair advantage of software" or any > of the other 14 definitions. You're right. It's not the other 14 definitions; it's merely not the one definition which you've chosen. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 15: 5: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8605637B400 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0490.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.235] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16uhFv-000697-00; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 15:04:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB213EF.C1AD30FF@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 15:04:31 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Pavelcak Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <20020405183857.GA58446@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <3CAE30C6.51C811DA@mindspring.com> <20020407211321.GA223@tower.my.domain> <3CB0E88E.828850F7@mindspring.com> <20020408123111.GA65569@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Pavelcak wrote: > I can assure you I missed it. I haven't read the GPL. That doesn't make > this an example of what I was looking for. The issue at hand for me is > whether cases of use and of utilization are coextensive. If they are, > then, even if they have different meanings, I don't see how the > distinction could be very interesting legally. Whether the GPL conflates > source code and binaries is a complication unrelated to the question I > originally posed. I should have said `Ignoring the GPL for > the moment ...' Ah... somone who has studied law... ;^). On the contrary; the conflation of source and binary distribution is what makes it possible to say that one may "use" the code, but not be permitted to "utilize" the code. For a software engineer interested in code reuse, it's more important to be able to utilize the code than it is to be able to use it. But the fact that the distribution of binaries has been conflated with the distribution of source code means that I now lack the ability to put to use binary code alone, that I can not utilize the code in particular ways. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 15:11:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 071CF37B41B for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0490.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.235] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16uhMC-0000SQ-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 15:11:24 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB21573.C1E81870@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 15:10:59 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CB18101.A13A693E@mindspring.com> <200204081232.g38CWKPL054578@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: > > Mike Meyer wrote: > > > I agree with that. But there may be an American dialect for which it's > > > not true. In particlar, they may have a legal meaning totally > > > different from any meaning in common use. > > ^^^ - noun... definition 9(*) > > > > (*) Not a synonym for "utilize" > > But "utilization" is a synonym. "The state of being utilized"? Hardly... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 15:26:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net (deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D25137B439 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.123] helo=swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net) by deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16uhQR-0000fB-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 15:15:47 -0700 Received: from pool0490.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.235] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16uhQ2-0006fz-00; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 15:15:22 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB21661.8EA5F5F4@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 15:14:57 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <3CB181D8.AD797C8A@mindspring.com> <20020408150638.I85215@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Terry Lambert said on Apr 8, 2002 at 04:41:12: > > Jamie Bowden wrote: > > > :USL recognized this in their license. If you have access to a > > > :SVR4 derived machine that was shipped after the USL vs. UCB > > > :settlement, look at the license on the header files. [ ... ] > I took a look at curses.h on a HP-UX machine. > It contains the Berkeley copyright notice, but no BSD licence -- > the "list of conditions" and "disclaimer" are missing. [ ... ] > /* > * Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1988 > * The Regents of the University of California. All Rights Reserved. > * Portions of this document are derived from software developed by the > * University of California, Berkeley, and its contributors. > */ This is probably permissable, because of the "All rights Reserved": it grants you no rights to the code. The rights are probably granted in the reproduction of the license in the accompanying documentation. Alternately, they are not in compliance with the requirements, and have no rights to use the code. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 15:43: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net (deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C69F37B47C for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.123] helo=swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net) by deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16uheP-0006Aa-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 15:30:13 -0700 Received: from pool0490.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.235] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16uheN-0005Rz-00; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 15:30:11 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB219DA.1B7DFB06@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 15:29:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> <3CAF7FB9.3259C392@mindspring.com> <3CB1196B.403F465D@mindspring.com> <26g026zq9y.026@localhost.localdomain> <3CB14B08.91041978@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > When code embodying trade secrets is licensed to a third party, > > trade secrets are different than patents or copyrights, in that > > the licensing of the code makes the licensee a propritor as well > > (unless the license was written by a total idiot). > > Not according to your definition above. Those licensees are granted > non-exclusive rights, and so don't meet your definition's requirement > regarding "exclusive legal right" while only the proprietor has the > exclusive rights required by your definition. (It is possible to > license away your exclusive rights (so you may be excluded), but that's > uncommon and not what you were referring to (see your "as well").) They are part of a select group. The rights they are granted are exclusive of non-members of the group. For it to remain a trade secret, its distribution must be controlled. Exclusive rights include distribution rights, but are not limited to them. In the case of the USL trade secrets that were at one time in the UNIX sources, there was no requirement of non-disclosure in the original Western Electric license under which the code was obtained by the University of California at Berkeley. The treatment of trade secrets came with later licenses. However, the later licenses are not applicable to code derived from code obtained under an earlier license. Practically everyone who has ever studied in the UNIX community has heard of "The Lions Book"; the license on the code in that case did not preclude redistribution, and it was only the new license that made it a requirement. I know few people who do not have a tattered photocopy of a photocopy of the book, from an original from the University of New South Wales bookstore. > > If you come down to it, actually, the attempts at extension of trade > > secret law to attempt to include stautory damages is actually a > > bigger threat than software patents. > > So if you violate my copyright license condition of use that requires > you keep my secrets, then I may sue you for copyright infrigement which > gives a me better deal in court. And maybe I'll also sue you for the > trade secret disclosure too. Interesting. But it makes more sense than > being allowed to sue you for publishing benchmark results. As a trade secret, the information is unpublished. Copyright applies to publication only, since article 1 section 12 of the U.S. Constitution -- the basis for Copyright law in the U.S. -- establishes the right of the government to create legislation such as the copyright and patent law in U.S.C. 17 only on the basis of "promoting the progress in the arts and sciences". The failure to publish -- or to have the intent to publish -- removes most copyright protection. Also, you do not have to copy the source code to reveal a trade secret. Specifically, source code may embody a trade secret, but source code on its own can not *be* a trade secret, merely it can be proprietary. The whole "sueing for publication of benchmark results" is based on breach of contract, for an implied contract. So are most software and music/video piracy causes of action. I think that the reason that the DMCA is going to lose at the U.S. Supreme Court level over the Constitutionality challenge is directly related to article 1, section 12, and to contract law, and not to the main claim of the current appeal by the Russian company of "fair use". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 15:52:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F6C837B41D for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id PAA01243; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:51:23 -0700 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda01237; Mon Apr 8 15:51:15 2002 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.11.6/8.9.1) id g38Mp5j12550; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from UNKNOWN(10.1.2.1), claiming to be "cwsys.cwsent.com" via SMTP by passer9.cwsent.com, id smtpdn12537; Mon Apr 8 15:51:00 2002 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cwsys.cwsent.com (8.11.6/8.9.1) id g38Mp0B37796; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200204082251.g38Mp0B37796@cwsys.cwsent.com> Received: from localhost.cwsent.com(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "cwsys" via SMTP by localhost.cwsent.com, id smtpdm37772; Mon Apr 8 15:50:08 2002 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group X-Sender: schubert To: Brett Glass Cc: Danny Howard , Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Baby(1) In-Reply-To: Message from Brett Glass of "Mon, 08 Apr 2002 11:10:15 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20020408110809.0382e4d0@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 15:50:08 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <4.3.2.7.2.20020408110809.0382e4d0@nospam.lariat.org>, Brett Glass w rites: > At 04:53 PM 4/6/2002, Danny Howard wrote: > > >Man pages suck. > > No, it's baby(1) that sucks, actually. ;-) So do babies suck, well in a different sense. (Bad joke). Don't blame me for the man page I didn't write it. Given all of it's flaws, it's still cute. > > > Or, is it naming conventions. > > That, too. They need WOman pages as well as just man pages. ;-) And I thought I had a bad sense of humor... :) > > >Baby terminates at forty > >weeks? More like it takes forty weeks to fork and finally begin > >consuming some serious resources. > > At which point, it disables sleep(1). Not entirely. The child process does sleep every couple of hours. Much of this depends on the child processes input and output patterns. Cheers, Phone: 250-387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: 250-387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/Alpha Team Email: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, CITS Ministry of Management Services Province of BC FreeBSD UNIX: cy@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 16:32:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4A3337B421 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00688; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 17:30:29 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020408172633.00e00610@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 17:30:26 -0600 To: Miguel Mendez From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Baby(1) Cc: Danny Howard , Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20020408213459.A53828@energyhq.homeip.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020408110809.0382e4d0@nospam.lariat.org> <200204060500.g3650sM84275@cwsys.cwsent.com> <200204060500.g3650sM84275@cwsys.cwsent.com> <20020406145354.D17676@pianosa.catch22.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020408110809.0382e4d0@nospam.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:34 PM 4/8/2002, Miguel Mendez wrote: >Anyway, most sysadmins prefer sex(6) when under a debugger in order to >avoid undesirable baby(1) forks :) A rubber baby buggy debugger? ;-) Ether that, or they make sure that vasprintf(3) is redirected to /dev/null. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 16:33:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ABB237B417 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C781BD47; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06152; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:33:00 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g38NWr500200; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:32:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> <3CAF7FB9.3259C392@mindspring.com> <3CB1196B.403F465D@mindspring.com> <26g026zq9y.026@localhost.localdomain> <3CB14B08.91041978@mindspring.com> <3CB219DA.1B7DFB06@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 08 Apr 2002 16:32:53 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3CB219DA.1B7DFB06@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 58 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > > > Not according to your definition above. Those licensees are granted > > non-exclusive rights, and so don't meet your definition's requirement > > regarding "exclusive legal right" while only the proprietor has the > > exclusive rights required by your definition. (It is possible to > > license away your exclusive rights (so you may be excluded), but that's > > uncommon and not what you were referring to (see your "as well").) > > They are part of a select group. The rights they are granted > are exclusive of non-members of the group. For it to remain a > trade secret, its distribution must be controlled. Exclusive > rights include distribution rights, but are not limited to them. The rights the select group are granted are only exclusive of non- members of the group because the proprietor (the owner of the non- exclusive rights as in your definition) has excluded non-members; it's not because the group members have the right to exclude. They do not have the RIGHT to exclude; they have only the DUTY to not reveal per their contract with the proprietor. The members of the group may not exclude the proprietor, for example. For another, they may not exclude members of a second group the proprietor grants non-exclusive license to. To summarize, the members of your group are not proprietors of the trade secrets. There is, of course, a gray area between not distributing to anybody and distributing to the public (the thing covered by copyright law). (3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending; I suppose only courts can say when distribution to a select group becomes publishing. It seems clear to me, however; that those source files just discussed in a nearby thread, which claimed to be unpublished, were, in fact, published, unless some fine print in their system licenses have more to say (NDA?) on the matter. > The > failure to publish -- or to have the intent to publish -- removes > most copyright protection. Yes; it seems that you are saying that if it embodies trade secrets, then it can't be published and therefor can't rely on a copyright license. That leaves software trade secrets in a tough spot which I'm sure the courts are quite willing to let proprietors wiggle out of. Like considering the software to be published, but the trade secrets to be merely distributed to a select group (probably under a separate contract or non-copyright part of the contract). > The whole "sueing for publication of benchmark results" is based > on breach of contract, for an implied contract. So are most > software and music/video piracy causes of action. I've seen a couple restrictions on that which were in explicit contracts. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 16:45:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E08037B400 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D69F3F30 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 19:45:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 19:45:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: mail black lists such as ORBS/ORBZ etc Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020408234554.8D69F3F30@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Given the increase in spam levels over the past 6 months or so, I'm surprised that nobody has stepped forward to fund real time black lists such as ORBS/ORBZ. Why is that? Do people see them as unworthy projects? Not worth funding? Or is there just no funding available? -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 16:52:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C19337B405 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g38Nqoq02507; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:52:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roo) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:52:50 -0700 From: Benjamin Krueger To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mail black lists such as ORBS/ORBZ etc Message-ID: <20020408165250.A1809@rain.macguire.net> References: <20020408234554.8D69F3F30@bast.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020408234554.8D69F3F30@bast.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 07:45:15PM -0400 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Dan Langille (dan@langille.org) [020408 16:45]: > Given the increase in spam levels over the past 6 months or so, I'm > surprised that nobody has stepped forward to fund real time black lists > such as ORBS/ORBZ. Why is that? > > Do people see them as unworthy projects? Not worth funding? Or is there > just no funding available? > > > -- > Dan Langille > The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples Unfortunately, I think the question is "what is the profit motivation?". How do you make money on a spamlist? The only viable sell so far is to offer it as a service. Doesn't help the small guys much. -- Benjamin Krueger "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about." - Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 16:54:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C9837B420 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FEF33F30; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 19:55:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: Benjamin Krueger Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 19:54:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: mail black lists such as ORBS/ORBZ etc Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <20020408165250.A1809@rain.macguire.net> References: <20020408234554.8D69F3F30@bast.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 07:45:15PM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020408235502.1FEF33F30@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 8 Apr 2002 at 16:52, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > * Dan Langille (dan@langille.org) [020408 16:45]: > > Given the increase in spam levels over the past 6 months or so, I'm > > surprised that nobody has stepped forward to fund real time black lists > > such as ORBS/ORBZ. Why is that? > > > > Do people see them as unworthy projects? Not worth funding? Or is there > > just no funding available? > > Unfortunately, I think the question is "what is the profit motivation?". > How do you make money on a spamlist? The only viable sell so far is to > offer it as a service. Doesn't help the small guys much. People fund other projects without the profit motive. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 17: 0:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ucan.foad.org (ucan.foad.org [64.173.36.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3891C37B42A for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pde@localhost) by ucan.foad.org (foad/FOAD2.0) id g38Nxsn31315; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:59:54 -0700 From: Pete Ehlke To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mail black lists such as ORBS/ORBZ etc Message-ID: <20020408165954.A7980@ehlke.net> References: <20020408234554.8D69F3F30@bast.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020408234554.8D69F3F30@bast.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 07:45:15PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 07:45:15PM -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > Given the increase in spam levels over the past 6 months or so, I'm > surprised that nobody has stepped forward to fund real time black lists > such as ORBS/ORBZ. Why is that? > > Do people see them as unworthy projects? Not worth funding? Or is there > just no funding available? > However you feel about the correctness of the perception, antispam blackhole lists and thier operators have acquired a reputation as controversial, at best. And they're lawsuit magnets. Perhaps you've noticed that funding sources in general have become much more attentive to sound business practices than they once were. Not many places are going to be interested in funding ventures that are sure to get sued into oblivion, are percieved by large segments of the public as wackjobs, and don't stand a snowball's chance of ever being profitable. -- "religious fanatics are not part of my desired user base." - djb@cr.yp.to To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 17:23: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2054B37B416 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 17:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (uucp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g390Mn9s018490; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 01:22:49 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) with UUCP id g390MnOd018489; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 01:22:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from grimreaper (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g390KTPL059689; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 01:20:29 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200204090020.g390KTPL059689@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CB2125B.8F11C442@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3CB2125B.8F11C442@mindspring.com> ; from Terry Lambert "Mon, 08 Apr 2002 14:57:47 PDT." Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 01:20:29 +0100 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Your definition is: > v. i.(1) > > To make use of; to convert to one's service; to avail > one's self of; to employ; to put a purpose; as, to use > a plow; to use a chair; to use time; to use flour for > food; to use water for irrigation. > > This is distinct from: > > v. i.(3) > > To practice customarily; to make a practice of; as, to > use diligence in business. The first is use/utilise. The second is lawyerspeak, for which no real dictionary word exists, but which I can imagine any word can be overloaded to mean at the convenience of the writer. > You're right. It's not the other 14 definitions; it's merely not > the one definition which you've chosen. Don't theorise, and stop overly generalising. Go back to the original question and _focus_. M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 18: 1:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97EAD37B41A for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 18:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3911jru057753; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 10:31:46 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Subject: Re: mail black lists such as ORBS/ORBZ etc From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Benjamin Krueger Cc: Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20020408165250.A1809@rain.macguire.net> References: <20020408234554.8D69F3F30@bast.unixathome.org> <20020408165250.A1809@rain.macguire.net> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.3 Date: 09 Apr 2002 10:31:44 +0930 Message-Id: <1018314106.10022.19.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5 required=5 X-Spam-Level: (-5) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.6 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2002-04-09 at 09:22, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > Unfortunately, I think the question is "what is the profit motivation?". > How do you make money on a spamlist? The only viable sell so far is to offer > it as a service. Doesn't help the small guys much. Mmm.. well I think we've found the problem... Unless you pay them, there is no money for them. Seems pretty obvious to me why there are less and less of them. You can defend lawsuits with $0 in the bank. There are other solutions besides blackhole lists though (SpamAssassin, Vipul's Razor, SpamCop, etc) Personally I use MIME Defang and Spam Assassin - works like a treat and I prevent windows users on my network from blowing their feet off too :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 19:29:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [212.22.195.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8693737B419 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 19:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fanf by chiark.greenend.org.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16ulNM-0008C8-00 (Debian); Tue, 09 Apr 2002 03:28:52 +0100 Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 03:28:52 +0100 From: Tony Finch To: Terry Lambert Cc: Tony Finch , Rahul Siddharthan , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020409032852.A30794@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <20020406171612.A17530@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CAF79CA.CB4D14B8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CAF79CA.CB4D14B8@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 02:42:18PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 02:42:18PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Tony Finch wrote: > > Section 0 says: > > > > : Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not > > : covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of > > : running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program > > : is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the > > : Program (independent of having been made by running the Program). > > : Whether that is true depends on what the Program does. > > > > This is generally true for copyright law. > > So now everyone who writes code is expected to be well read in > copyright? No, but people who argue loudly and at great length about the GPL are expected to have read the relevant parts. Tony. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 21:26:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF9137B417 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 21:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0021.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.21] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16unCz-0003fg-00; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:26:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB26D50.7FE4DED4@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:25:52 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> <3CAF7FB9.3259C392@mindspring.com> <3CB1196B.403F465D@mindspring.com> <26g026zq9y.026@localhost.localdomain> <3CB14B08.91041978@mindspring.com> <3CB219DA.1B7DFB06@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > They are part of a select group. The rights they are granted > > are exclusive of non-members of the group. For it to remain a > > trade secret, its distribution must be controlled. Exclusive > > rights include distribution rights, but are not limited to them. > > The rights the select group are granted are only exclusive of non- > members of the group because the proprietor (the owner of the non- > exclusive rights as in your definition) has excluded non-members; it's > not because the group members have the right to exclude. They do not > have the RIGHT to exclude; they have only the DUTY to not reveal per > their contract with the proprietor. No, they only have a contractual obligation, if one was written into their contract. No "duty". Even the Church of Scintology lost on that one, with the "babble" Perl script modified to kick out stuff that sounded like their trade secret texts. > The members of the group may not > exclude the proprietor, for example. For another, they may not exclude > members of a second group the proprietor grants non-exclusive license > to. To summarize, the members of your group are not proprietors of the > trade secrets. It depends on the contract. In most non-disclosure agreements guarding trade secret disclosure, you are in fact given the responsibilities of a proprieter, in exchange for limited rights and order valuable considerations. > There is, of course, a gray area between not distributing to anybody and > distributing to the public (the thing covered by copyright law). > > (3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to > the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, > lease, or lending; > > I suppose only courts can say when distribution to a select group > becomes publishing. It seems clear to me, however; that those source > files just discussed in a nearby thread, which claimed to be > unpublished, were, in fact, published, unless some fine print in their > system licenses have more to say (NDA?) on the matter. No, they were unpublished proprietary works. > > The > > failure to publish -- or to have the intent to publish -- removes > > most copyright protection. > > Yes; it seems that you are saying that if it embodies trade secrets, > then it can't be published and therefor can't rely on a copyright > license. That leaves software trade secrets in a tough spot which I'm > sure the courts are quite willing to let proprietors wiggle out of. > Like considering the software to be published, but the trade secrets to > be merely distributed to a select group (probably under a separate > contract or non-copyright part of the contract). No. A trade secret, once lost, by whatever means, is lost. This has been upheld in every court case of which I'm aware; no "wiggle room" exists. The closest you can get is to file a patent within one year of the disclosure (e.g. publication of source code embodying the secret); this is peculiar to the U.S.: outside the U.S., once published, information is not elegible for patent. > > The whole "sueing for publication of benchmark results" is based > > on breach of contract, for an implied contract. So are most > > software and music/video piracy causes of action. > > I've seen a couple restrictions on that which were in explicit > contracts. They *have* to be in contracts. If they aren't, then there is nothing which legally binds you to those terms. Normally, even if you accept shrink-wrap licenses, the worst they could do is terminate your license to use the software, due to breach. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 21:36:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D43737B41C for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 21:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0021.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.21] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16unMP-0001SZ-00; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:36:02 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB26F97.A45B9ADF@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:35:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Finch Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <20020406171612.A17530@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CAF79CA.CB4D14B8@mindspring.com> <20020409032852.A30794@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tony Finch wrote: > > > This is generally true for copyright law. > > > > So now everyone who writes code is expected to be well read in > > copyright? > > No, but people who argue loudly and at great length about the GPL > are expected to have read the relevant parts. You implication is incorrect. I have read it, and I have read the GNU Manifesto, and I have read the relevent U.S.C. and international law. The quoted statement is out of context of the discussion, in which the poster was agreeing with a point I made, not refuting it. When the amount of law one is subject to exceeds your ability to carry it with a cart behind you, it is unresonable to expect your average layman -- the people being lobbied to apply the various open source licenses to their software -- to be well read on all of the information. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 21:45:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97DB337B405 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 21:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0021.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.21] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16unVL-0002Sz-00; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:45:16 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB271C2.4126BDF2@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:44:50 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mail black lists such as ORBS/ORBZ etc References: <20020408234554.8D69F3F30@bast.unixathome.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > Given the increase in spam levels over the past 6 months or so, I'm > surprised that nobody has stepped forward to fund real time black lists > such as ORBS/ORBZ. Why is that? > > Do people see them as unworthy projects? Not worth funding? Or is there > just no funding available? Blacklists are illegal, under the RICO anti-racketeering statutes, which were intended to prevent organized crime. The "ORBS" nad the "MAPS RBL" do not claim to be blacklists; they specifically go out of their way to ensure that they are opt-in, and that they otherwise do not meet the legal definition of a blacklist. However...MAPS has been to court on a number of occasions anyway, since you can sue anyone for anything. The results of these suits are listed at: http://mail-abuse.org/ MAPS is not-for-profit. They get donations, and they have a subscription service which is, I believe, donation based. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 8 21:51:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7561437B417 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2002 21:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0021.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.21] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16unbT-0000WH-00; Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:51:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB2733E.F98DD29B@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 21:51:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CB2125B.8F11C442@mindspring.com> <200204090020.g390KTPL059689@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: > Don't theorise, and stop overly generalising. Go back to the original > question and _focus_. We've already answered the original question, I think: "yes, there is misleading language in the GPL". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 9 3:41:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB08337B41A for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 03:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0075.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.75] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ut4O-0000Xh-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 09 Apr 2002 03:41:48 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB2C54D.CCD6561F@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 03:41:17 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Anyone in FreeBSD-land going to the Foresight Gathering? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone in FreeBSD-land going to the Foresight Gathering? I know you have to make a tax-deductible donation and a commitment over 5 years, but it's relatively small, and it looks incredibly interesting... -- Terry http://www.foresight.org/SrAssoc/spring2002/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WHAT THOUGHT LEADERS SAY ABOUT FORESIGHT GATHERINGS: Greg Bear: "A great and brain-jazzing experience!" David Brin: "A great gathering of independent thinkers from all over this rambunctious civilization" Esther Dyson: "Intriguing conference!" Doug Engelbart: "Very very worthwhile for me" John Gilmore: "Interesting experiment" Bill Joy: "Thanks for bringing the group together" Steve Jurvetson: "Mind candy for my soul...an opportunity to explore new horizons, challenge assumptions, and turbocharge a pursuit of lifetime learning" Ray Kurzweil: "A unique and exhilarating experience...a large group of people who have sophisticated, enlightened, and thoughtful ideas about the future" Doug Lenat: "People I wouldn't have met anywhere else -- but needed to" Eric Raymond: "Fascinating schmoozathon!" Gregory Stock: "An extraordinary gathering of stimulating, diverse people. One great conversation after another" Vernor Vinge: "Had a great time and was exposed to fascinating ideas -- and, more importantly -- fascinating sources of ideas" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Exploring the Edges" Foresight Senior Associate Gathering April 26-28, 2002 Silicon Valley, California http://www.foresight.org/SrAssoc/spring2002 Foresight's Annual Brainstorming-Planning-Actionfest & Nanoschmoozathon Huge revolutions in technology are expected to show up in the next 5-to-30 years -- come hear what they are, how they'll change your life, and how to influence them. Featuring "Not Another Nanotech VC Panel" covering what you _won't_ hear at the nanotech biz conferences Special Event: Debate of the Decade "BioFuture vs. MachineFuture" Gregory Stock vs. Ray Kurzweil New: Job opportunities table. Bring your resume or your help wanted info and we'll help to facilitate a match. Confirmed speakers include: * Tom W. Bell: controversial law prof who keeps challenging society's fundamental beliefs -- and succeeds * Stewart Brand: multidisciplinary pioneer; author, How Buildings Learn; founder, Whole Earth Catalog; co-founder, All Species Inventory, Long Bets Foundation * Eric Drexler: nanotechnologist; author, Engines of Creation, Nanosystems * David Friedman: maverick economist; author, The Machinery of Freedom * Ray Kurzweil: author, The Age of Intelligent Machines, The Age of Spiritual Machines; winner, National Medal of Technology * Leon Fuerth: former National Security Advisor to VP Al Gore * Steve Jurvetson: managing director, Draper Fisher Jurvetson; "The Valley's Sharpest VC" * Ray Kurzweil: author, The Age of Intelligent Machines, The Age of Spiritual Machines; winner, National Medal of Technology * Ralph Merkle: nanotechnologist; winner, Feynman Prize in Nanotechnology; co-inventor, public key cryptography * Tim O'Reilly: open source advocate, Internet commerce pioneer, protester against bad patents, best computer book publisher in world * Christine Peterson: coauthor, Unbounding the Future, Leaping the Abyss; named 'open source software' * Paul Saffo: technology forecaster, quoted everywhere; a World Economic Forum "Global Leader for Tomorrow" * Gregory Stock: author, Redesigning HUMANS: Our Inevitable Genetic Future; Director, UCLA Program on Medicine, Technology and Society * Fred Turner: poet laureate of nanotechnology; aesthetic theoretician Topics include: * Nanotechnology * Radical life extension * Expanding biosphere into space * Repairing environmental damage * Openness vs. privacy * Machine intelligence: could we be surprised? * Encouraging open technologies * Preventing abuse of technology * Spreading tech benefits to "have nots" * Reining in "intellectual property" law * Speeding up change to reduce risk? * Nanotech investment * Action plans Who comes: 200 of those most able to see what's ahead -- and consider what to do about it. As a group we have technical skill, entrepreneurial drive, financial resources, experience in effecting change, and the sheer pigheaded determination to make a difference. (See http://www.foresight.org/SrAssoc) When: April 26 evening though April 28, 2002. We'll start with a reception at 7 PM Friday and wrap up at about 5 PM Sunday. Where: Palo Alto in Silicon Valley -- the birthplace of disruptive new technologies How: Not just passive listening -- the emphasis is on intense interaction Why: To plan your the future of your career, your family, and your organization, you need to know what's coming Thinking about the coming changes -- even the positive ones -- can be intimidating when done solo. Join us as we take our annual group swim into the memepool of the future Come exercise your foresight muscle. There's nowhere to get a better view of the wild ride ahead. Special thanks to our Corporate Sponsor: Draper Fisher Jurvetson http://www.dfj.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- To sponsor this event, contact yakira@foresight.org Foresight Institute is a non-profit educational organization To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 9 4:14:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [212.22.195.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892F637B400 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 04:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fanf by chiark.greenend.org.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16utZM-00005x-00 (Debian); Tue, 09 Apr 2002 12:13:48 +0100 Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 12:13:48 +0100 From: Tony Finch To: Terry Lambert Cc: Tony Finch , Rahul Siddharthan , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020409121348.A30147@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <20020406171612.A17530@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CAF79CA.CB4D14B8@mindspring.com> <20020409032852.A30794@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB26F97.A45B9ADF@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CB26F97.A45B9ADF@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:35:35PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:35:35PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > The quoted statement is out of context of the discussion, in > which the poster was agreeing with a point I made, not refuting > it. When you repeatedly claim that there is confusion about whether the GPL restricts running GPLed code I think it is perfectly in context to provide a straightforward quote from the GPL that explicitly says it does not restrict such things. The whole flamewar about ambiguous use of English is a red herring, because the GPL doesn't use the word "utilize", and hardly uses the word "use" at all, and not in any cases where this affects the argument. Tony. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 9 4:20:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E71437B41A for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 04:20:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g39BKEa03278 ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 13:20:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA56862 ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 13:20:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 13:20:12 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020409132012.F48437@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CB2125B.8F11C442@mindspring.com> <200204090020.g390KTPL059689@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3CB2733E.F98DD29B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CB2733E.F98DD29B@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:51:10PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 8, 2002 at 21:51:10: > Mark Murray wrote: > > Don't theorise, and stop overly generalising. Go back to the original > > question and _focus_. > > We've already answered the original question, I think: "yes, > there is misleading language in the GPL". Perhaps there is, but the word "use" is not an example. I can't think of any other example, except the phrase "free software", which is explicitly defined in the GPL so it's not misleading for those who've read the GPL. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 9 6:15:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C41437B419 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 06:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08890 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 09:15:55 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020408233036.01e798a0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 23:32:39 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: mail black lists such as ORBS/ORBZ etc In-Reply-To: <1018314106.10022.19.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> References: <20020408165250.A1809@rain.macguire.net> <20020408234554.8D69F3F30@bast.unixathome.org> <20020408165250.A1809@rain.macguire.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:01 PM 4/8/2002, you wrote: >There are other solutions besides blackhole lists though (SpamAssassin, >Vipul's Razor, SpamCop, etc) > >Personally I use MIME Defang and Spam Assassin - works like a treat and >I prevent windows users on my network from blowing their feet off too :) Are there any good solutions like this that can be applied on the client side of the mail equation? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 9 10:23:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032BA37B419 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 10:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0DD0BD7A; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 10:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17684; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 10:23:36 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g39HNOs13135; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 10:23:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> <3CAF7FB9.3259C392@mindspring.com> <3CB1196B.403F465D@mindspring.com> <26g026zq9y.026@localhost.localdomain> <3CB14B08.91041978@mindspring.com> <3CB219DA.1B7DFB06@mindspring.com> <3CB26D50.7FE4DED4@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 09 Apr 2002 10:23:24 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3CB26D50.7FE4DED4@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 67 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > The rights the select group are granted are only exclusive of non- > > members of the group because the proprietor (the owner of the non- > > exclusive rights as in your definition) has excluded non-members; it's > > not because the group members have the right to exclude. They do not > > have the RIGHT to exclude; they have only the DUTY to not reveal per > > their contract with the proprietor. > > No, they only have a contractual obligation, if one was written > into their contract. No "duty". Even the Church of Scintology > lost on that one, with the "babble" Perl script modified to kick > out stuff that sounded like their trade secret texts. I thought you would be able to interprety my short "DUTY" as your long "CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS" which I consider synonomous in this context. (I won't ask you to explain the difference, for obvious reasons. :-) I notice that even though you say "they only have a contractual obligation" here, you later say (below) they have "responsibilities". (I won't ask you to explain the difference, for obvious reasons. :-) > > The members of the group may not > > exclude the proprietor, for example. For another, they may not exclude > > members of a second group the proprietor grants non-exclusive license > > to. To summarize, the members of your group are not proprietors of the > > trade secrets. > > It depends on the contract. In most non-disclosure agreements > guarding trade secret disclosure, you are in fact given the > responsibilities of a proprieter, in exchange for limited rights > and order valuable considerations. Whether or not that statement is true, you are not given (even limited) exclusive rights and so you are not a proprietor (by your definition and mine). Having the responsibilities of a proprietor doesn't make you one when you also have the (exclusive, in this case) rights of one. > > I suppose only courts can say when distribution to a select group > > becomes publishing. It seems clear to me, however; that those source > > files just discussed in a nearby thread, which claimed to be > > unpublished, were, in fact, published, unless some fine print in their > > system licenses have more to say (NDA?) on the matter. > > No, they were unpublished proprietary works. You provided no more evidence for the claim than they did. They made it available to the public. Any member of the public who purchases or logs on to (or even sits down at) one of those computers is going to have access to the works. How is that not publishing? Under what definition of publishing is that source code unpublished? You haven't said that there is any NDA involved, even after I hinted (above) for you to do so. > > > The > > > failure to publish -- or to have the intent to publish -- removes > > > most copyright protection. I agreed too readily with this before. AFAIK, failure to publish or (intend to) removes no copyright protect. But I recall reading a little about unpublished works, so I suppose there are some few differences in some few cases. But for a counter-example, someone's personal letters carry normal copyrights even though the person's will requires them to be burned uncopied and unread. So the distribution (not publication) of trade-secret-containing software under a copyright license and NDA is quite reasonable. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 9 16: 3:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6420137B400 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 16:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0222.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.222] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16v4eI-0002g6-00; Tue, 09 Apr 2002 16:03:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB37330.2FE5A835@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 16:03:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Finch Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <20020406171612.A17530@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CAF79CA.CB4D14B8@mindspring.com> <20020409032852.A30794@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB26F97.A45B9ADF@mindspring.com> <20020409121348.A30147@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tony Finch wrote: > On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 09:35:35PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > The quoted statement is out of context of the discussion, in > > which the poster was agreeing with a point I made, not refuting > > it. > > When you repeatedly claim that there is confusion about whether the > GPL restricts running GPLed code I think it is perfectly in context to > provide a straightforward quote from the GPL that explicitly says it > does not restrict such things. This is not what I am claiming. I am caliming that it permits running the code, and it uses misleading language about the preparation of derivative works. See: http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=878995+0+archive/2002/freebsd-chat/20020407.freebsd-chat > The whole flamewar about ambiguous use of English is a red herring, > because the GPL doesn't use the word "utilize", and hardly uses the word > "use" at all, and not in any cases where this affects the argument. Greg Pavelcak started this subthread with his posting: http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=800904+0+archive/2002/freebsd-chat/20020407.freebsd-chat Which I believe was a tangent off the "Hold Harmless" thread: http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=748900+0+archive/2002/freebsd-chat/20020407.freebsd-chat ...unfortunately, he didn't include an "In-Response-To: " header, so he may have been replying to Gary Swearington. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 9 16: 5:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29F937B400 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 16:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0222.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.222] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16v4fT-0004Mp-00; Tue, 09 Apr 2002 16:04:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB3737A.1551931@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 16:04:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CB2125B.8F11C442@mindspring.com> <200204090020.g390KTPL059689@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3CB2733E.F98DD29B@mindspring.com> <20020409132012.F48437@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Perhaps there is, but the word "use" is not an example. I can't think > of any other example, except the phrase "free software", which is > explicitly defined in the GPL so it's not misleading for those who've > read the GPL. And then when someone else uses the phrase "free software" later? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 9 16:35:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728B137B421 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 16:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0222.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.222] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16v58c-0004FQ-00; Tue, 09 Apr 2002 16:34:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB37A88.EEB78B79@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 16:34:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> <3CAF7FB9.3259C392@mindspring.com> <3CB1196B.403F465D@mindspring.com> <26g026zq9y.026@localhost.localdomain> <3CB14B08.91041978@mindspring.com> <3CB219DA.1B7DFB06@mindspring.com> <3CB26D50.7FE4DED4@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > It depends on the contract. In most non-disclosure agreements > > guarding trade secret disclosure, you are in fact given the > > responsibilities of a proprieter, in exchange for limited rights > > and order valuable considerations. > > Whether or not that statement is true, you are not given (even limited) > exclusive rights and so you are not a proprietor (by your definition and > mine). Having the responsibilities of a proprietor doesn't make you one > when you also have the (exclusive, in this case) rights of one. http://www.ilrg.com/forms/confidagree.html http://www.bitlaw.com/forms/nda.html http://www.bynari.net/custsw.html (section 6 is particularly meaningful) In general, there was quite a humorous thread a while back, when a FreeBSD developer was given a configentiality agreement that: whether Recipient should merely agree to protect the confidential information in a manner similar to the way the Recipient protects its own confidential information. ...of course, the way they protected their own confidential information was by committing it in source for to the FreeBSD source tree. 8-). > > > I suppose only courts can say when distribution to a select group > > > becomes publishing. It seems clear to me, however; that those source > > > files just discussed in a nearby thread, which claimed to be > > > unpublished, were, in fact, published, unless some fine print in their > > > system licenses have more to say (NDA?) on the matter. > > > > No, they were unpublished proprietary works. > > You provided no more evidence for the claim than they did. They made it > available to the public. The did *NOT* make it available to "the public", they made it available to "a select group". > Any member of the public who purchases or logs on to (or even sits > down at) one of those computers is going to have access to the works. Only after having executes a shringwrap license agreement, thereby making them members of the "select group". > How is that not publishing? Under what definition > of publishing is that source code unpublished? 1. To make public; to make known to mankind, or to people in general; to divulge, as a private transaction; to promulgate or proclaim, as a law or an edict. -- not published under that one... 2. To make known by posting, or by reading in a church; as, to publish banns of marriage. -- not published under that one... 3. To send forth, as a book, newspaper, musical piece, or other printed work, either for sale or for general distribution; to print, and issue from the press. -- not published under that one: not for sale (merely licensed for use), not for general distribution (only for ditribution to a select group), not printed. 4. To utter, or put into circulation; as, to publish counterfeit paper. -- arguable, if the code is bogus... 8-) 8-) 8-). > You haven't said that there is any NDA involved, even after I hinted > (above) for you to do so. There is a license. Any rights not granted to the licensee by the licensor are reserved to the licensor. > > > > The > > > > failure to publish -- or to have the intent to publish -- removes > > > > most copyright protection. > > I agreed too readily with this before. AFAIK, failure to publish or > (intend to) removes no copyright protect. But I recall reading a little > about unpublished works, so I suppose there are some few differences in > some few cases. But for a counter-example, someone's personal letters > carry normal copyrights even though the person's will requires them to > be burned uncopied and unread. Letters are published. > So the distribution (not publication) of trade-secret-containing > software under a copyright license and NDA is quite reasonable. And that's what they did. In fact, it's probably a technical license violation for what was published in this forum, with regard to the status of the works, based on their attached license provisions. You'll notice that I personally have not posted the direct information. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 9 16:46:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24F5C37B400 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 16:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (uucp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g39Nkh9s018486; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 00:46:43 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) with UUCP id g39NkheN018485; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 00:46:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from grimreaper (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g39NhpPL069269; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 00:43:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.za) Message-Id: <200204092343.g39NhpPL069269@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CB3737A.1551931@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3CB3737A.1551931@mindspring.com> ; from Terry Lambert "Tue, 09 Apr 2002 16:04:26 PDT." Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 00:43:51 +0100 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Perhaps there is, but the word "use" is not an example. I can't think > > of any other example, except the phrase "free software", which is > > explicitly defined in the GPL so it's not misleading for those who've > > read the GPL. > > And then when someone else uses the phrase "free software" later? Most people don't speak English like lawyers write contracts. GPL is a contract/license/legal document. It's not real English. It defines very clearly key terms like "free". These meanings are only valid in the GPL. M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 9 16:48:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E94BB37B404 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 16:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0222.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.222] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16v5Ld-0002EQ-00; Tue, 09 Apr 2002 16:48:25 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB37DB0.F55705B3@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 16:48:00 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CB3737A.1551931@mindspring.com> <200204092343.g39NhpPL069269@grimreaper.grondar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Murray wrote: > > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > Perhaps there is, but the word "use" is not an example. I can't think > > > of any other example, except the phrase "free software", which is > > > explicitly defined in the GPL so it's not misleading for those who've > > > read the GPL. > > > > And then when someone else uses the phrase "free software" later? > > Most people don't speak English like lawyers write contracts. > > GPL is a contract/license/legal document. It's not real English. It > defines very clearly key terms like "free". These meanings are only > valid in the GPL. Most people don't speak English like lawyers write contracts. 8-) 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 9 17:57:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [212.22.195.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62F4437B405 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 17:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fanf by chiark.greenend.org.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16v6Q7-0003e3-00 (Debian); Wed, 10 Apr 2002 01:57:07 +0100 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 01:57:07 +0100 From: Tony Finch To: Terry Lambert Cc: Tony Finch , Rahul Siddharthan , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020410015707.A13007@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <20020406171612.A17530@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CAF79CA.CB4D14B8@mindspring.com> <20020409032852.A30794@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB26F97.A45B9ADF@mindspring.com> <20020409121348.A30147@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB37330.2FE5A835@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CB37330.2FE5A835@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:03:12PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 04:03:12PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > This is not what I am claiming. I am caliming that it permits > running the code, and it uses misleading language about the > preparation of derivative works. Where is this misleading language? You said : The GPL incorrectly uses the word "use" when they mean "utilize". but the GPL doesn't use the word "use" in the context of the preparation of derivative works; it only uses it as a synonym for "run" (except outside the T&Cs). Tony. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 9 18: 6:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5EA37B400 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 18:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3A16Uru080220; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:36:35 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Subject: Re: mail black lists such as ORBS/ORBZ etc From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020408233036.01e798a0@threespace.com> References: <20020408165250.A1809@rain.macguire.net> <20020408234554.8D69F3F30@bast.unixathome.org> <20020408165250.A1809@rain.macguire.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20020408233036.01e798a0@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.3 Date: 10 Apr 2002 10:36:28 +0930 Message-Id: <1018400794.13556.7.camel@chowder.gsoft.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5 required=5 X-Spam-Level: (-5) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.6 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2002-04-09 at 14:02, Chip Morton wrote: > >Personally I use MIME Defang and Spam Assassin - works like a treat and > >I prevent windows users on my network from blowing their feet off too :) > > Are there any good solutions like this that can be applied on the client > side of the mail equation? Depends on your resources. You can hook Spam Assassin into procmail pretty easily I believe. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 9 18:33:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB9737B404 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 18:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2279BD78; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 18:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10152; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 18:33:03 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g3A1Wn318967; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 18:32:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> <3CAF7FB9.3259C392@mindspring.com> <3CB1196B.403F465D@mindspring.com> <26g026zq9y.026@localhost.localdomain> <3CB14B08.91041978@mindspring.com> <3CB219DA.1B7DFB06@mindspring.com> <3CB26D50.7FE4DED4@mindspring.com> <3CB37A88.EEB78B79@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 09 Apr 2002 18:32:48 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3CB37A88.EEB78B79@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 101 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > > > Whether or not that statement is true, you are not given (even limited) > > exclusive rights and so you are not a proprietor (by your definition and > > mine). Having the responsibilities of a proprietor doesn't make you one > > when you also have the (exclusive, in this case) rights of one. Whoops. That should have been "unless you also have...". > http://www.bitlaw.com/forms/nda.html > http://www.bynari.net/custsw.html (section 6 is particularly meaningful) Nothing suprising there. > The did *NOT* make it available to "the public", they made it > available to "a select group". You could say that about any published work distributed by lease or sales. There must be some restriction on disclosure to be considered unpublished, which there apparently is not in our case. > > Any member of the public who purchases or logs on to (or even sits > > down at) one of those computers is going to have access to the works. > > Only after having executes a shringwrap license agreement, > thereby making them members of the "select group". But you haven't shown that the license agreement requires confidentiality, and if the licenses that were posted here were the only ones, there plainly is not such requirement. > > How is that not publishing? Under what definition > > of publishing is that source code unpublished? > > 1. To make public; to make known to mankind, or to people in general; to > divulge, as a private transaction; to promulgate or > proclaim, as a law or an edict. > > -- not published under that one... I disagree. The information has been divulged to any member of the public that makes his way to one of those computers since there is no requirement to keep them away. > 2. To make known by posting, or by reading in a church; as, to publish banns of > marriage. > > -- not published under that one... Same story. It's like posting the source on a church (or company) bulletin board (or computer) and then saying that you've only distributed it to a select group and that you haven't published it. You HAVE published it, as your definition implies. > 3. To send forth, as a book, newspaper, musical piece, or other printed work, > either for sale or for general distribution; to print, and issue from the press. > > -- not published under that one: not for sale (merely licensed for > use), not for general distribution (only for ditribution to a > select group), not printed. Yes for sale. You purchase non-exclusive rights under a license contract. For big bucks above and beyond the cost of hardware. Or if not for sale, for some other terms that make no difference to the issue of publishing which does not require sale. > > You haven't said that there is any NDA involved, even after I hinted > > (above) for you to do so. > > There is a license. Any rights not granted to the licensee by > the licensor are reserved to the licensor. But there is no exclusive right to exclude the public from viewing your distributed work UNLESS you take reasonable steps to prevent the public from viewing it. > Letters are published. That's no argument. The letters in my example are unpublished. > > So the distribution (not publication) of trade-secret-containing > > software under a copyright license and NDA is quite reasonable. > > And that's what they did. I'm quite sure that I've made it abundantly clear that I wasn't discussing an NDA case and you've provided no clues that there was an NDA ("this is XXX proprietary information" is not an NDA). You're now changing the story and I've tired of hitting your uncharacteristic softballs. I suspect that you're playing mind games and I'm finished with this thread. The last word is yours. > In fact, it's probably a technical license violation for what was > published in this forum, with regard to the status of the works, > based on their attached license provisions. You'll notice that I > personally have not posted the direct information. That was my first thought upon seeing them, but one could make a good case that they had all four of the fair use factors (if one HAD to :). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 9 18:35:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C695937B41A for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 18:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0222.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.222] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16v710-000256-00; Tue, 09 Apr 2002 18:35:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB396B8.510C3CC6@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 18:34:48 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Finch Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <20020406171612.A17530@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CAF79CA.CB4D14B8@mindspring.com> <20020409032852.A30794@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB26F97.A45B9ADF@mindspring.com> <20020409121348.A30147@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB37330.2FE5A835@mindspring.com> <20020410015707.A13007@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tony Finch wrote: > but the GPL doesn't use the word "use" in the context of the > preparation of derivative works; it only uses it as a synonym > for "run" (except outside the T&Cs). Preamble. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 9 19: 3: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3027037B404 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 19:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0222.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.222] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16v7Rv-0001k8-00; Tue, 09 Apr 2002 19:03:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB39D3D.AC9FA405@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 19:02:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abuses of the BSD license? References: <200204051922.06556@silver.dt1.binity.net> <3CAE7037.801FB15F@optusnet.com.au> <3CAEA028.186ED53E@optusnet.com.au> <3CAED90B.F4B7905@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020406124622.019bfdc8@threespace.com> <3CAF7FB9.3259C392@mindspring.com> <3CB1196B.403F465D@mindspring.com> <26g026zq9y.026@localhost.localdomain> <3CB14B08.91041978@mindspring.com> <3CB219DA.1B7DFB06@mindspring.com> <3CB26D50.7FE4DED4@mindspring.com> <3CB37A88.EEB78B79@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > I'm quite sure that I've made it abundantly clear that I wasn't > discussing an NDA case and you've provided no clues that there > was an NDA ("this is XXX proprietary information" is not an NDA). > You're now changing the story and I've tired of hitting your > uncharacteristic softballs. I suspect that you're playing mind > games and I'm finished with this thread. The last word is yours. Fine. Then I won't take you to task over "divulge". 8-). The topic of the discussion was "abuses of the BSD license", and the very first thing that happened, as happens in all such discussions, is that the GPL fanatics come out of the woodwork to defend substantial use of BSD code in GPL'ed works, with the BSD license removed, as being legitimate because RMS says the licenses are compatible, and, being The Prophet of The One True God of Software, none dare criticise his statement. It's very obvious that the original posting was a troll, to give the GPL nuts an opportunity to jump in with "yeah, but... if you let USL do it, don't you have to let GPL user do it?", totally ignoring the contractual and legal environment. I gave real world examples of the UCB vs. USL countersuit claims (which are a matter of public record, and the filings for which are available in multiple locations on the web), and now there is an attempt to claim that the license in place on the code in question wasn't in place, or that the USL lawyers and HP lawyers and SGI lawyers and IBM lawyers are somehow selectively stupid and ignorant of the legal issues, when it came to labelling the code in question "unpublished proprietary". > > In fact, it's probably a technical license violation for what was > > published in this forum, with regard to the status of the works, > > based on their attached license provisions. You'll notice that I > > personally have not posted the direct information. > > That was my first thought upon seeing them, but one could make a good > case that they had all four of the fair use factors (if one HAD to :). I considered "fair use" as a defense; however, the defense is only valid against copyright infringement, and what the people who were posting did was a violation of their license, which is a breach of contract issue, not a statutory issue. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 9 21:35: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-2.free.fr (postfix2-2.free.fr [213.228.0.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C558537B417 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 21:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-9-62-147-162-87.dial.proxad.net [62.147.162.87]) by postfix2-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36345F7DD for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 06:34:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1105 invoked by uid 1001); 10 Apr 2002 04:34:52 -0000 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 06:34:52 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020410043451.GA1013@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CB2125B.8F11C442@mindspring.com> <200204090020.g390KTPL059689@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3CB2733E.F98DD29B@mindspring.com> <20020409132012.F48437@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3737A.1551931@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CB3737A.1551931@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 9, 2002 at 16:04:26: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Perhaps there is, but the word "use" is not an example. I can't think > > of any other example, except the phrase "free software", which is > > explicitly defined in the GPL so it's not misleading for those who've > > read the GPL. > > And then when someone else uses the phrase "free software" later? You were talking about the GPL. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 9 23:44:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1681A37B404 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 23:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0293.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.38] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16vBqL-0004FD-00; Tue, 09 Apr 2002 23:44:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB3DF33.5B677641@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 23:44:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Mark Murray , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CB2125B.8F11C442@mindspring.com> <200204090020.g390KTPL059689@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3CB2733E.F98DD29B@mindspring.com> <20020409132012.F48437@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3737A.1551931@mindspring.com> <20020410043451.GA1013@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Terry Lambert said on Apr 9, 2002 at 16:04:26: > > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > Perhaps there is, but the word "use" is not an example. I can't think > > > of any other example, except the phrase "free software", which is > > > explicitly defined in the GPL so it's not misleading for those who've > > > read the GPL. > > > > And then when someone else uses the phrase "free software" later? > > You were talking about the GPL. No, actually I was talking about the BSDL; it was other people who borught up that "Abuse of the BSD License" might include inclusion in GPL'ed programs. I can give you a pointer to the list archive, if you need to reread it... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 0:33:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4007937B405 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 00:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-5-62-147-147-180.dial.proxad.net [62.147.147.180]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D68EAB2DE for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:33:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 302 invoked by uid 1001); 10 Apr 2002 07:33:09 -0000 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:33:09 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020410073309.GA279@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CB2125B.8F11C442@mindspring.com> <200204090020.g390KTPL059689@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3CB2733E.F98DD29B@mindspring.com> <20020409132012.F48437@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3737A.1551931@mindspring.com> <20020410043451.GA1013@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3DF33.5B677641@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3CB3DF33.5B677641@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 9, 2002 at 23:44:03: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Terry Lambert said on Apr 9, 2002 at 16:04:26: > > > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > Perhaps there is, but the word "use" is not an example. I can't think > > > > of any other example, except the phrase "free software", which is > > > > explicitly defined in the GPL so it's not misleading for those who've > > > > read the GPL. > > > > > > And then when someone else uses the phrase "free software" later? > > > > You were talking about the GPL. > > No, actually I was talking about the BSDL; it was other people > who borught up that "Abuse of the BSD License" might include > inclusion in GPL'ed programs. Sorry -- I read the above, with preceding quotes, several times and just can't make out what you're talking about. Are you saying the BSDL uses the phrase "free software"? I can't find the word "free" anywhere in the BSDL. Are you saying people who mix the BSDL with GPL software may get confused by the term "free software"? That's then clearly their fault for not reading the GPL first. If neither of these, just what are you talking about? Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 3: 8:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [212.22.195.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 527EF37B405 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 03:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fanf by chiark.greenend.org.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16vF0J-00082u-00 (Debian); Wed, 10 Apr 2002 11:07:03 +0100 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 11:07:03 +0100 From: Tony Finch To: Terry Lambert Cc: Tony Finch , Rahul Siddharthan , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020410110703.A29767@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <20020406171612.A17530@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CAF79CA.CB4D14B8@mindspring.com> <20020409032852.A30794@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB26F97.A45B9ADF@mindspring.com> <20020409121348.A30147@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB37330.2FE5A835@mindspring.com> <20020410015707.A13007@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB396B8.510C3CC6@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CB396B8.510C3CC6@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 06:34:48PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 06:34:48PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Tony Finch wrote: > > but the GPL doesn't use the word "use" in the context of the > > preparation of derivative works; it only uses it as a synonym > > for "run" (except outside the T&Cs). > > Preamble. The preamble is not part of the terms and conditions and so should be ignored when considering what the licence means. There seems little point in complaining about ambiguity in informal language. Tony. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 3:36:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E58037B400 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 03:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g3AAaDa78455 ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:36:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA14988 ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:36:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:36:12 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Tony Finch Cc: Terry Lambert , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Ambiguity, Terry-style, in the BSDL (was Re: Use/Utilize) Message-ID: <20020410123612.H8263@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Tony Finch , Terry Lambert , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020406171612.A17530@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CAF79CA.CB4D14B8@mindspring.com> <20020409032852.A30794@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB26F97.A45B9ADF@mindspring.com> <20020409121348.A30147@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB37330.2FE5A835@mindspring.com> <20020410015707.A13007@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB396B8.510C3CC6@mindspring.com> <20020410110703.A29767@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020410110703.A29767@chiark.greenend.org.uk>; from dot@dotat.at on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:07:03AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Selected meanings, from Terry's 1913 Webster when available, otherwise from the Merriam-Webster site. The BSDL says: "Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:" "Redistribution": (Merriam-Webster) 1 : To alter the distribution of; reallocate "use": Already discussed ad nauseam, but (Webster 1913) 8. [In this sense probably a corruption of OF. oes, fr. L. opus need, business, employment, work. Cf. Operate.] (Law) The benefit or profit of lands and tenements. Use imports a trust and confidence reposed in a man for the holding of lands. "source" (Webster 1913) 2. The rising from the ground, or beginning, of a stream of water or the like; a spring; a fountain. "binary" (Webster 1913) Compounded or consisting of two things or parts; characterized by two (things) "permitted" (Merriam-Webster) 3 : to make possible "condition" (Webster 1913) 1. Mode or state of being; state or situation with regard to external circumstances or influences, or to physical or mental integrity, health, strength, etc.; predicament; rank; position, estate. "met", imp. and p.p. of "meet" (Webster 1913) 1. To join, or come in contact with; esp., to come in contact with by approach from an opposite direction; to come upon or against, front to front, as distinguished from contact by following and overtaking. So according to the BSDL: "Reallocation and benefit or profit of land and tenements, in the form of a spring or fountain or in two parts, with or without modification, are made possible provided that one comes in contact with the following modes or states of being:" [Translating the conditions into Terry-speak is an exercise for the reader.] - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 3:53:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AECE837B404 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 03:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0017.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.17] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16vFjW-0004Br-00; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 03:53:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB41997.214F408C@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 03:53:11 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CB2125B.8F11C442@mindspring.com> <200204090020.g390KTPL059689@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3CB2733E.F98DD29B@mindspring.com> <20020409132012.F48437@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3737A.1551931@mindspring.com> <20020410043451.GA1013@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3DF33.5B677641@mindspring.com> <20020410073309.GA279@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > No, actually I was talking about the BSDL; it was other people > > who borught up that "Abuse of the BSD License" might include > > inclusion in GPL'ed programs. > > Sorry -- I read the above, with preceding quotes, several times and > just can't make out what you're talking about. Are you saying the > BSDL uses the phrase "free software"? I can't find the word "free" > anywhere in the BSDL. Are you saying people who mix the BSDL with GPL > software may get confused by the term "free software"? That's then > clearly their fault for not reading the GPL first. If neither of > these, just what are you talking about? No. I guess I need to referesh your memory, as to the start of this current set of threads: On 06 Apr 2002, Ian Pulsford wrote: ] It is commonly spouted in Linux forums that you take BSD licensed code ] and do what you want with it including putting into your GPL project ] under a GPL license. On looking closer at the "simplified" license I ] don't see anywhere that it says you can freely relicense code under ] another license. ] (http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html) [ ... ] ] So where did the idea that you could use BSD licensed code without ] regard for (retaining) the license come from? Reference to original complete posting: The answer is that, if the claim is indeed "that you take BSD licensed code and do what you want with it including putting into your GPL project under a GPL license", then it is my thesis that the answer to the question is that there is intentional misuse of language within the community of the claimants, particularly RMS himself, which could erroneously lead to that conclusion. That is what I'm saying, and that has been what I have been saying. My original response reference is: And any thinly disguised defense of intentional misuse of the English language in order to obfuscate the matter is merely that -- an attempt to obfuscate the matter. It is very common, in my experience, for radical GPL advocates, in these situations, to turn these discussions into debates about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, thereby losing the main point -- and never speaking to it, only to side details, ad nauseum. It's very hard to not attribute this to intentional efforts at losing the main point. The fact of the matter is that the GPL is an instrumentality of the GNU Manifesto. If you don't understand the GNU Manifesto's intent and goals, the primary of which is the abolishment of intellectual property law, then you really have no place in a discussion about it (or, in fact, using the GPL on your code). If, on the other hand, you wish to offer an alternative hypothesis explaining Mr. Pulsford's putative observations, feel free. If I take issue with your hypothesis, I'll involve myself in the thread... as I did. You stated that the license was not required to be maintained on derivative works, only the Copyright notice: When I pointed out that the requirement for retaining the notice was inclusive: and we debated the fine points for a bit, you recanted, as in the last paragraph of: The entire "use/utilize" debate is an attempt to discredit an example of the intentional misuse of language. Even were this attempt successful (and I do not believe that it has been), the only thing a success in the redefinition of the word "utilize" as a synonym for the word "use" would have is to indicate a poor choice of examples on my part, not that my premise was invalid (or even valid, to be fair). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 4: 6:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 149EA37B416 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 04:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g3AB6Ta82317 ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 13:06:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA16797 ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 13:06:29 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 13:06:29 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize Message-ID: <20020410130629.A16154@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CB2125B.8F11C442@mindspring.com> <200204090020.g390KTPL059689@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3CB2733E.F98DD29B@mindspring.com> <20020409132012.F48437@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3737A.1551931@mindspring.com> <20020410043451.GA1013@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3DF33.5B677641@mindspring.com> <20020410073309.GA279@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB41997.214F408C@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CB41997.214F408C@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 03:53:11AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Apr 10, 2002 at 03:53:11: > The answer is that, if the claim is indeed "that you take BSD licensed > code and do what you want with it including putting into your GPL project > under a GPL license", then it is my thesis that the answer to the > question is that there is intentional misuse of language within the > community of the claimants, particularly RMS himself, which could > erroneously lead to that conclusion. Possibly misuse of language within the community, but not in the two licences in question, which are all that matter. Also, the usual confusion of the meaning "free" with "free of charge" has no relevance here: code under a BSD licence is even less obligated to remain "free of charge" than code under the GPL, where at least there is a strong likelihood that the code will always be available from *somewhere* "free of charge". But the people who should be worried are the people who are writing code mixing the two licences; they should read those licences first, and then there will be no doubt about the meaning. > And any thinly disguised defense of intentional misuse of the English > language in order to obfuscate the matter is merely that -- an attempt > to obfuscate the matter. Actually the real dispute here was a fine legal point about what exactly is allowed by the BSD licence. Any attempt to obfuscate that matter, with allegations of "intentional misuse of language" in the "community" in the contexts of "use/utilize" and "free software" is, as you say, merely that -- an attempt to obfuscate the matter. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 4:22:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF74237B417 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 04:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0017.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.17] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16vGAw-0003yN-00; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 04:22:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB42037.FAFFFA1A@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 04:21:27 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Finch Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <20020406171612.A17530@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CAF79CA.CB4D14B8@mindspring.com> <20020409032852.A30794@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB26F97.A45B9ADF@mindspring.com> <20020409121348.A30147@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB37330.2FE5A835@mindspring.com> <20020410015707.A13007@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB396B8.510C3CC6@mindspring.com> <20020410110703.A29767@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tony Finch wrote: > On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 06:34:48PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Tony Finch wrote: > > > but the GPL doesn't use the word "use" in the context of the > > > preparation of derivative works; it only uses it as a synonym > > > for "run" (except outside the T&Cs). > > > > Preamble. > > The preamble is not part of the terms and conditions and so should > be ignored when considering what the licence means. There seems > little point in complaining about ambiguity in informal language. The preamble is part of the license, and speaks to the spirit of any agreement entered into under the terms and conditions set forth by the license. A court considering a case involving the use of the license would likely not grant a motion to exclude the preamble, as it's a necessary part of the spirit of the intended agreement (I expect a courty would view a misunderstanding of the preamble as exculpatory). Personally, I would argue that the GNU Manifesto itself is evidentiary in nature, given that the GPL is and was intended as an instrumentality of the GNU Manifesto. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 4:26: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C9237B419 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 04:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0017.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.17] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16vGEJ-0005zi-00; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 04:25:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB42108.20C9B3DA@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 04:24:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Tony Finch , Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ambiguity, Terry-style, in the BSDL (was Re: Use/Utilize) References: <20020406171612.A17530@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CAF79CA.CB4D14B8@mindspring.com> <20020409032852.A30794@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB26F97.A45B9ADF@mindspring.com> <20020409121348.A30147@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB37330.2FE5A835@mindspring.com> <20020410015707.A13007@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <3CB396B8.510C3CC6@mindspring.com> <20020410110703.A29767@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20020410123612.H8263@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Selected meanings, from Terry's 1913 Webster when available, otherwise > from the Merriam-Webster site. [ ... ] Except, again, you are intentioanally picking the wrong definitions of the words. Just because your example here is obviously egregiously incorrect, doesn't mean that your word choice before wasn't also incorrect. As a technicality, intellectual property is not real property. At least pick wrong deifinitions that have a chance of being relevent to the situation. RMS does. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 4:42:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8277337B417 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 04:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0017.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.17] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16vGUG-0007bl-00; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 04:42:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB424E4.629016E0@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 04:41:24 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CB2125B.8F11C442@mindspring.com> <200204090020.g390KTPL059689@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3CB2733E.F98DD29B@mindspring.com> <20020409132012.F48437@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3737A.1551931@mindspring.com> <20020410043451.GA1013@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3DF33.5B677641@mindspring.com> <20020410073309.GA279@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB41997.214F408C@mindspring.com> <20020410130629.A16154@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Possibly misuse of language within the community, but not in the two > licences in question, which are all that matter. Without compliance with the license in consideration for the rights granted by the license, there is no exchange of consideration, and therefore no contract. Without a contract, there is no transfer of rights for you to use the code -- no matter which definition of "use" you choose this week. Without a transfer of rights which are reserved to the copyright holder, you can not use the code (again, no matter what definition you use), except as specifically allowed in U.S.C. 17, under the doctorine of "fair use". Therefore, either you use the code in accordance with the license, or your use constitutes *either* breach of contract *or* violation of Copyright. Pick one to describe the illegal act. > But the people who should be worried are the people who are writing > code mixing the two licences; they should read those licences first, > and then there will be no doubt about the meaning. Yes, no doubt: it is not possible to comply with both licenses simultaneously because of section 6 of the GPL, which requires that you perform an act for which the right has not been granted (or assigned by license) to you by the copyright holder: relicensing the code under the GPL. This is true for *any* code under any of the licenses which the FSF erroneously claims are compatible, but which are not themselves the GPL, an intentional dual license, or public domain: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#GPLCompatibleLicenses -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 9:44:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FCD737B404 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16vLCo-0003i6-00; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:44:22 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:44:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: mailing list comparisons? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone know of a good webpage that summarizes the features, strengths and weaknesses of several mailing lists managers? (I did find a few reviews and a useful, but old, Mailing list management software FAQ.) I have experience with administrating listserv and a few others (plus I have experience with using numerous lists). And I currently manage a few majordomo lists. I am looking for a mailing list: - manage via email (web-based management not required) - users aren't forced to use a password to unsubscribe - detect hard bounces and unsubscribe as needed - has a reasonable good track record of non-security issues. - lightweight, but perl is okay (that doesn't make sense :) If I can't find a good one webpage that summarizes several open source mailing list managers, then I'll make one. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 10:11:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 507EF37B404 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g3AHB4a39625 ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:11:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA39246 ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:11:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:11:04 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mailing list comparisons? Message-ID: <20020410191104.F26749@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from reed@reedmedia.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:44:22AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeremy C. Reed said on Apr 10, 2002 at 09:44:22: > I am looking for a mailing list: > > - manage via email (web-based management not required) > > - users aren't forced to use a password to unsubscribe > > - detect hard bounces and unsubscribe as needed > > - has a reasonable good track record of non-security issues. > > - lightweight, but perl is okay (that doesn't make sense :) I don't know of such a webpage, but - If you don't mind using qmail as your mta -- and especially if you're already using it -- I definitely like ezmlm (at the risk of starting another DJB flamefest). It does all of the above, very easy to set up (a one line command, though you have to read the docs to issue the appropriate command), and you can set up the mailing list as a regular user -- no root interference required except in setting up the software itself. In fact, you can set up several lists as the same user (say, list-one@host, list-two@host etc for user list). And of course you have DJB's well known assurances on security and reliability (I don't think he offers a guarantee though). All commands are email-based: you send email to list-one-subscribe@... to subscribe, list-one-unsubscribe@.... to unsubscribe, and to each you'll get a confirmation mail which you need to reply to, but no passwords. It may be possible to set it up without requiring confirmation for subscribes/unsubscribes -- it all works with .qmail files so one can manipulate those directly and do lots of things. ISTR it now works with postfix too. Bare-bones version, but good enough for many purposes, mail/ezmlm in the ports: http://cr.yp.to/ezmlm.html Useful add-ons (moderation, remote administration etc) available as mail/ezmlm-idx in the ports: http://www.ezmlm.org/ - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 10:30:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B40437B416 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g3AHUla42632 ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:30:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA40125 ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:30:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:30:47 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mailing list comparisons? Message-ID: <20020410193047.G26749@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020410191104.F26749@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020410191104.F26749@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@online.fr on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 07:11:04PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I wrote: > > ISTR it [ezmlm] now works with postfix too. Or at least, Venema was working on it. This post makes interesting reading: http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/postfix/2001-07/0457.html Apparently Venema doesn't totally disapprove of ezmlm... Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 10:37: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bilbo.in.mat.cc (bilbo.in.mat.cc [212.43.217.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3238037B420 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bilbo.in.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bilbo.in.mat.cc (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9A9871183; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:36:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sauron (sauron.in.mat.cc [212.43.217.122]) by bilbo.in.mat.cc (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C9F471183; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:36:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:36:27 +0200 From: Mathieu Arnold To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mailing list comparisons? Message-ID: <43832921.1018467387@sauron> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.2.0b3 (Win32) X-wazaaa: True, true MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On mercredi 10 avril 2002 09:44 -0700 "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > Does anyone know of a good webpage that summarizes the features, > strengths and weaknesses of several mailing lists managers? > > (I did find a few reviews and a useful, but old, Mailing list management > software FAQ.) > > I have experience with administrating listserv and a few others (plus I > have experience with using numerous lists). And I currently manage a few > majordomo lists. > > I am looking for a mailing list: > > - manage via email (web-based management not required) > > - users aren't forced to use a password to unsubscribe > > - detect hard bounces and unsubscribe as needed > > - has a reasonable good track record of non-security issues. > > - lightweight, but perl is okay (that doesn't make sense :) > > If I can't find a good one webpage that summarizes several open source > mailing list managers, then I'll make one. I've been using majordomo2 for many months and I is appears to be very good a almost everything. -- Mathieu Arnold To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 12:23:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5691537B417 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id AE184530B; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 21:23:20 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mailing list comparisons? References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Apr 2002 21:23:20 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" writes: > Does anyone know of a good webpage that summarizes the features, > strengths and weaknesses of several mailing lists managers? How about "majordomo works; everything else is either expensive or a poor imitation"? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 12:48:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 016AC37B400 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92167BD38; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06856; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:47:56 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g3AJlIL32214; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:47:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CB2125B.8F11C442@mindspring.com> <200204090020.g390KTPL059689@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3CB2733E.F98DD29B@mindspring.com> <20020409132012.F48437@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3737A.1551931@mindspring.com> <20020410043451.GA1013@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3DF33.5B677641@mindspring.com> <20020410073309.GA279@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB41997.214F408C@mindspring.com> <20020410130629.A16154@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB424E4.629016E0@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 10 Apr 2002 12:47:18 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3CB424E4.629016E0@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <23g023xrnd.023@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 111 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Without a contract, there is no transfer of rights for you to use > the code -- no matter which definition of "use" you choose this > week. (It's funny that you insist on bringing us back to some paraphrased quote of stupid claims supposedly heard in GNU/Linux forums. The error of the claim should have been obvious to anyone who had read the BSD license. The OP was either trolling or just thinking out loud. There was no serious controversy or attempt at obfusication going on, AFAIK. (Apart from a couple of people who where completely ignorant of the topic.)) Please remember that this use/utilize issue was a result of your gratuitous and erroneous slam of the GPL's use of the word "use" in my "Harmless" thread in which I wanted to talk about unprotected "running" of software and in which you wanted to talk about everything else but that. I quote: [Gary:] > > For the purposes of the argument, yes, like that; but not even such > > low-value consideration is involved in the "running" of PD or BSDL'd (or > > GPL'd) software (assuming the DMCA doesn't forbid it). [above just to show me reminding you of the context of my thread] I snipped your reply as irrelevant to the current message] [Terry:] > > > No. The BSD license *specifically* states: > > > > > > The Regents of the University of California. All > > > rights reserved. > > > > > > This includes use and performance rights. 8-). [I assumed from the context that you meant "run" and I suppose we should know that it doesn't mean "utilize" in your special "derive from" sense. [Gary:] > > There are no such rights FOR SOFTWARE in the 17USC106 "Exclusive > > rights..." list and I've read quite a bit on the subject and have never > > seen anyone show any evidence for such rights for software. The FSF, > > for instance, is clear to note that the GPL doesn't cover "use". The > > BSDL's mention of "use" is moot, AFAIK. [Terry:] > No. The GPL incorrectly uses the word "use" when they mean > "utilize". Which you've finally identified as coming from the GPL preamble which can only be this: "...designed to make sure...that you can change the software or use pieces of it in new free programs;..." the meaning of which is not changed by exchanging "use" for "utilize" as the meaning of that "use" it is abundantly clear. I choose to ignore the inapplicability of the point to my comment about the GPL saying that it doesn't cover "use" (which I quoted in a unsuccessful attempt to remind you what we were talking about, namely running, not things protected by copyright). I ignored it because I thought is was a silly point to begin with since the words would mean the same thing to 99.94% of the parties to the licenses and because it had nothing to do with my point about the GPL anyway. I was just trying to refer to this part of section "0": Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of running the Program is not restricted, without having to quote what everyone has seen many times. But you use (or utilize) it as a chance to slam the GPL's (admittedly abundant) misleading language and avoiding my point. Obfuscation indeed. From a couple messages back in this sub-thread: > When I pointed out that the requirement for retaining the notice > was inclusive: And when I pointed out that the requirement for "retaining" the actual license (permission) part of the license-related text was non-existent, you ignored it. (But remember that I also noted that the presence or absence of license text need not mean the presence or absence of license.) I think some of the initial confusion was a result of the OP's use of "copyright notice" for what I (and apparently you, judging from the previous quote) assumed he meant all the related text (copyright notice and license (permission, conditions, and disclaimer)). > The entire "use/utilize" debate is an attempt to discredit an > example of the intentional misuse of language. An example which richly deserved to be discredited, both because it had nothing to do with the point it was in response to and on its (lack of) merit. It's a shame that you can't bring yourself to admit it, especially when there are so many good opportunities for you to rant about RMS's misuse of language. > Even were this attempt successful (and I do not believe that it > has been), the only thing a success in the redefinition of the > word "utilize" as a synonym for the word "use" would have is to > indicate a poor choice of examples on my part, not that my premise > was invalid (or even valid, to be fair). Again, the problem with that is that it wasn't your premise that was being discussed. It was my premise; which you kept side-tracking until I gave up in disgust. (BTW, I didn't SAY (as you unfairly said that I said) that the HP and other lawyers were stupid enough to think that those files were not published. I said only that the statements are untrue; because the files have been published. I chose not to say whether I thought the lawyers were making an overreaching claim in the manner of many licenses or were quite innocently claiming something that was true when they claimed it but which has subsequently become untrue through the actions of others. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 14: 6:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB4837B405 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 684CCBE79; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06404; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:06:32 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g3AL6Dq33147; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:06:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Incompatibility of the GPL (was: Use/Utilize) References: <3CB2125B.8F11C442@mindspring.com> <200204090020.g390KTPL059689@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3CB2733E.F98DD29B@mindspring.com> <20020409132012.F48437@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3737A.1551931@mindspring.com> <20020410043451.GA1013@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3DF33.5B677641@mindspring.com> <20020410073309.GA279@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB41997.214F408C@mindspring.com> <20020410130629.A16154@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB424E4.629016E0@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 10 Apr 2002 14:06:12 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3CB424E4.629016E0@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 67 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > But the people who should be worried are the people who are writing > > code mixing the two licences; they should read those licences first, > > and then there will be no doubt about the meaning. > > Yes, no doubt: it is not possible to comply with both licenses > simultaneously because of section 6 of the GPL, which requires > that you perform an act for which the right has not been granted > (or assigned by license) to you by the copyright holder: relicensing > the code under the GPL. No, there's always plenty of doubt about licenses; even the BSDL and certainly the GPL and this issue of compatibility. I'll grant you that incompatibility can easily be read into these licenses, but as much as I dislike the GPL, I also want to believe that the BSDL is compatible with any use which doesn't violate the few explicit terms of the BSDL. Of course, if a license said "this can't be used with BSDL'd software", I guess I'd have to admit defeat. I can't get around the idea that similar reasoning would make illegal most use of BSDL software under licenses at least as restrictive as the GPL. I doubt if there is a single license on binary-only code which is derived in part from BSDL code which doesn't claim to be a license on the derivative and that most have terms something like the GPL's "distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License". As for actual support for their compatibility, I claim that the GPL is overreaching in it's claim to be a license on the whole of the derivative (more below) and people see no need to heed the claim, especially since GPL licensors have apparently not claimed a desire to enforce it. (And some have claimed a desire to not enforce it.) The part of the GPL that is supposed to cause incompatibility does not cause it because it is not an effective, enforcible part of the license. It might as well not be there (except for the problems it causes). In any case, the BSDL is all the license needed to use the BSDL code in a GPL'd or other restrictively-licensed derivative as long as the BSDL's terms are honored, which is easily done, even in a GPL'd derivative. Such overreaching on the part of the GPL-using deriver is something the deriver needs to worry about, I suppose, but he certainly needn't worry any more about violationg his own GPL than he would if he was the sole licensor. And because the BSDL licensor has already licensed his work in the derivative (which shall be forever under the BSDL, regardless of the other owner's license on his work in the derivative), no relicense or sublicense is necessary. From 17USC103: (b) The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright in such work is independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the scope, duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any copyright protection in the preexisting material. So the license "on the derivative" may extend only to "the material contributed by the author of such work" and does not cover the "preexisting material employed in the work" which is still under BSDL and for which no relicense or sublicense is needed. Maybe that explains some author's preference for saying "license in the work" instead of "license on the work". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 14:14:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (mta07-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 203C837B419 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sobek.lan ([213.104.88.122]) by mta07-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020410211452.ZPNF7757.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@sobek.lan>; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:14:52 +0100 Received: (from greid@localhost) by sobek.lan (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g3ALEoT50294; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:14:50 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from greid@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: sobek.lan: greid set sender to greid@FreeBSD.org using -f Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:14:50 +0100 From: George Reid To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: mailing list comparisons? Message-ID: <20020410221450.A50234@FreeBSD.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from reed@reedmedia.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:44:22AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:44:22AM -0700, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > I am looking for a mailing list: [...] I've used Ecartis (formerly Listar) fairly extensively for several projects. I'd recommend it. It's in the ports. -- George C A Reid Tel: (08701) 200870 Ext. 26654 WWW: http://people.FreeBSD.org/~greid/ Mob: (07740) 197460 FreeBSD Committer/Developer greid@FreeBSD.org Oriel College, Oxford University george.reid@oriel.ox.ac.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 14:16:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14E2837B404 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g3ALGha68493 ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:16:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id XAA48398 ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:16:43 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:16:43 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Incompatibility of the GPL (was: Use/Utilize) Message-ID: <20020410231643.B42241@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3CB2733E.F98DD29B@mindspring.com> <20020409132012.F48437@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3737A.1551931@mindspring.com> <20020410043451.GA1013@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3DF33.5B677641@mindspring.com> <20020410073309.GA279@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB41997.214F408C@mindspring.com> <20020410130629.A16154@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB424E4.629016E0@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from swear@blarg.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 02:06:12PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen said on Apr 10, 2002 at 14:06:12: > Terry Lambert writes: > > > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > But the people who should be worried are the people who are writing > > > code mixing the two licences; they should read those licences first, > > > and then there will be no doubt about the meaning. > > > > Yes, no doubt: it is not possible to comply with both licenses > > simultaneously because of section 6 of the GPL, which requires > > that you perform an act for which the right has not been granted > > (or assigned by license) to you by the copyright holder: relicensing > > the code under the GPL. > > No, there's always plenty of doubt about licenses; even the BSDL and > certainly the GPL and this issue of compatibility. In passing, let me point out that the quoting removed my context, which was the usage of the phrase "free software" in the GPL. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 14:43: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thales.memphis.edu (thales.memphis.edu [141.225.37.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 25B8C37B404 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 11054 invoked by uid 500); 10 Apr 2002 21:37:28 -0000 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:37:28 -0500 From: Mate Wierdl To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Message-ID: <20020410163728.A25502@thales.memphis.edu> References: <20020403144539.A11798@thales.memphis.edu> <3CAB7860.EB8DF505@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3CAB7860.EB8DF505@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 01:47:12PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 01:47:12PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Mate Wierdl wrote: > A violation of a "SHOULD" is almost worse than a violation of > a "MUST". A violation of a "MUST" has recourse: it's a bug. > A violation of a "SHOULD" has no recourse. > > The problem with this is that it violates the Principle Of > Least Astonisment (POLA); specifically, it violates the > dictum that one should be generous in what one accepts, but > strict about what one generates, with regard to protocols. > Not accepting a "SHOULD" mandated request is hardly generous. It certainly can happen that the advice given in an rfc turns out to be ill in the wild after a time. DNS over TCP, for example, turns out to be prone to DOS attacks, and is much slower. In rfc1123, I read Responsible practices can make UDP suffice in the vast majority of cases. and However, it is also clear that some new DNS record types defined in the future will contain information exceeding the 512 byte limit that applies to UDP, and hence will require TCP. Thus, resolvers and name servers should implement TCP services as a backup to UDP today, with the knowledge that they will require the TCP service in the future. Now djbdns certainly implement DNS over TCP---it just leaves it up to the admin to, in fact, enable it as the need arises. The argument boils down to what is enabled by default. Security, performance, requirements registry, and knowing the size of my records dictates no or limited TCP service availability. > > > 3. The suggested method for copying contents of DNS zones is rsync, > > > scp, or other remote copy tools. The DNS standard method of > > > zone transfers (query type "axfr") is only supported as an > > > additional, disrecommended method. > > > > Realizing the disadvantages of "axfr", the djbdns package allows the > > sysadmin to use other, more secure, reliable and readily available > > tools _in addition to_ "axfr". What is wrong with this flexibility? > > Firewalls. I do not follow: so just keep axfr, and get rid off the additional possibilities? > > > > > 5. Without a patch from a third party, tinydns does not support the > > > standard "NOTIFY" protocol of informing secondary nameservers > > > that the zone has been updated, and that they need to check the > > > SOA serial number and download a new copy (if they don't already > > > have it). > > > > Which rfc describing the DNS standards requires NOTIFY? > > RFC 1996. I am not clear on this (probably I did not ask the question clearly): does rfc 1996 mandate the implementation of NOTIFY for servers? > > Consider, for example, the fact that presently NOTIFY can alert > > clients only about SOA record changes, and hence even if only a single > > A record was added to the master's data, the client will have to > > download the whole zone. At least this is my reading of rfc1996. > > > > Using rsync, of course, makes it possible to do only incremental > > updates. > > The issue isn't about the amount of data that has to be > transferred, it's about the stall barrier, when any data > has to be reloaded. In case of tinydns, there is no data to be reloaded: data is stored in a file. Is "reloading data" defined to be the same as "looking up a record from a file"? And pushing the new data to the slave happens immediately after the update on the master. > > > I am not saying that, in case of a non-trusting slave, there might not > > be a need for a safe, reliable, etc way for a master server to > > initiate a data file update (instead of a polling by the slave), but > > this looks more like a problem that has nothing to do with the DNS > > protocol. > > Here's my argument: > > "All DNS data transfers should take place over the > DNS protocol." Well, this requirement results in complexity, and lots of reinventing the wheel. In case of tinydns, transferring data is equivalent with transferring a file. Perhaps you suggest that the transfer should take place over the DNS protocol because of firewall considerations. But exactly the added complexity will necessarily result in security problems. Your requirement seems to be potentially an enormous burden. I suppose you agree that the security tools associated with DNS data transfer should also be implemented inside the DNS protocol. But how about requirements that are needed for these security tools to work? For example, for TSIG to work, you need to synchronize time between the master and slave. Should this time synchronization be done over the DNS protocol? Afterall, the slave can be behind a firewall... And then there is DNSSEC. It seems to be so complex that it may defeat its own purpose: improve security. For example, at http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/dns4/chapter/ch11.html I read: We realize that DNSSEC is a bit, er, daunting. (We nearly fainted the first time we saw it.) Indeed, even without DNSSEC, apparently 24% of .com servers have misconfigured delegations. Interestingly, R. Bush(!) was compelled to quote de Saint-Exupery You know you have achieved perfection in design, not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away. at http://psg.com/~randy/001213.ietf-dns/ > > > > In case of a trusting slave, though, rsync will push the changes over > > to the slave as soon as they happen on the master. > > Plus the notice latency on the master, as the changes are polled, > rather than event-triggered, plus the notice latency on the slave, > for the same reasons. > Does not happen between two tinydns servers, though. The problem I see is that of authentication: the recommended scheme for pushing new data from a tinydns master to a tinydns slave assumes that the slave trusts the master. What if the master is taken over by an attacker? > This is actually hidden in djbdns, because of the reopening > of the file each time. This reopening is another synchornization > barrier, due to POSIX time update requirements. > > > > 7. You cannot set an alternative SOA contact address (other than > > > what is hard-coded within tinydns), if you do not have a patch > > > from a third party. > > > > Those who read the docs can see > > I believe he's referring to additional data, rather than replacement > data, here... I see, you may be right. Not all is lost, though: one can then use RP records. > > We are looking at two only, so they must be the major ones. > > > > > A. When an IQUERY is sent to a djbdns server, it will > > > respond with opcode set to QUERY. (it should simply > > > copy the opcode, not make something up). > > > > Which currently in use client sends IQUERY? What does the 01/2002 draft > > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-obsolete-iquery-03.txt > > > > say about IQUERY? > > Whatever it says is irrelevent, until it is Standards Track. It is not irrelevant because it does hint at the problems with IQUERY, and at the fact that clients do not send IQUERY anymore. Hence it is unlikely that users will suffer from this lack of compliance. Mate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 15:38:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37B0837B400 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 15:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.10] (root@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g3AMcO716647; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 18:38:24 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020410163728.A25502@thales.memphis.edu> References: <20020403144539.A11798@thales.memphis.edu> <3CAB7860.EB8DF505@mindspring.com> <20020410163728.A25502@thales.memphis.edu> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 00:36:10 +0200 To: Mate Wierdl , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:37 PM -0500 2002/04/10, Mate Wierdl wrote: > It certainly can happen that the advice given in an rfc turns out to > be ill in the wild after a time. DNS over TCP, for example, turns out > to be prone to DOS attacks, and is much slower. > > In rfc1123, I read > > Responsible practices can make UDP suffice in the vast > majority of cases. RFC 1123 is old. With the advent of IPv6 and other enhancements, more and more DNS queries must be performed over TCP because there is no other choice. > Now djbdns certainly implement DNS over TCP---it just leaves it up to > the admin to, in fact, enable it as the need arises. The argument > boils down to what is enabled by default. At issue here is not whether there are alternatives that may work most of the time, at issue here is whether djbdns is compliant with the standard by default -- which is patently is not. > I do not follow: so just keep axfr, and get rid off the additional > possibilities? The additional possibilities are also available with other programs. They are not unique to djbdns. Claiming that alternatives are available does not absolve you of the responsibility to implement the standard -- by default. > I am not clear on this (probably I did not ask the question clearly): > does rfc 1996 mandate the implementation of NOTIFY for servers? NOTIFY is an important part of the evolution of the DNS protocol. If you do not implement it by default, you put the future of the DNS at risk. >> Here's my argument: >> >> "All DNS data transfers should take place over the >> DNS protocol." > > Well, this requirement results in complexity, and lots of reinventing > the wheel. Just because things get tough doesn't mean that you are free to throw away all the rules. > Indeed, even without DNSSEC, apparently 24% of .com servers have > misconfigured delegations. We can fix those problems without DNSSEC -- indeed, as you point out this is merely a configuration issue. DNSSEC is for solving larger problems than this. > It is not irrelevant because it does hint at the problems with IQUERY, > and at the fact that clients do not send IQUERY anymore. Hence it is > unlikely that users will suffer from this lack of compliance. Just because you believe that there are no more clients that use IQUERY doesn't give you free rein to decide to ignore the DNS protocol when you receive an IQUERY. This is in direct violation of the Postel Principle, as well as POLA. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 15:54: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E402037B404 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 15:53:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0071.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.71] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16vQyG-0003Lh-00; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 15:53:44 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB4C25E.18AE7C81@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 15:53:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Incompatibility of the GPL (was: Use/Utilize) References: <3CB2125B.8F11C442@mindspring.com> <200204090020.g390KTPL059689@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3CB2733E.F98DD29B@mindspring.com> <20020409132012.F48437@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3737A.1551931@mindspring.com> <20020410043451.GA1013@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3DF33.5B677641@mindspring.com> <20020410073309.GA279@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB41997.214F408C@mindspring.com> <20020410130629.A16154@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB424E4.629016E0@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > But the people who should be worried are the people who are writing > > > code mixing the two licences; they should read those licences first, > > > and then there will be no doubt about the meaning. > > > > Yes, no doubt: it is not possible to comply with both licenses > > simultaneously because of section 6 of the GPL, which requires > > that you perform an act for which the right has not been granted > > (or assigned by license) to you by the copyright holder: relicensing > > the code under the GPL. > > No, there's always plenty of doubt about licenses; even the BSDL and > certainly the GPL and this issue of compatibility. > > I'll grant you that incompatibility can easily be read into these > licenses, but as much as I dislike the GPL, I also want to believe that > the BSDL is compatible with any use which doesn't violate the few > explicit terms of the BSDL. Of course, if a license said "this can't > be used with BSDL'd software", I guess I'd have to admit defeat. The GPL poison-pills itself with the "no additional restrictions" clause. It's not an incompatability of the BSD license, it's an incompatability of the GPL. FWIW, I think you could safely call the requirement of keeping the BSD license attached as an "additional restriction". > I can't get around the idea that similar reasoning would make illegal > most use of BSDL software under licenses at least as restrictive as the > GPL. I doubt if there is a single license on binary-only code which is > derived in part from BSDL code which doesn't claim to be a license on > the derivative and that most have terms something like the GPL's > "distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License". Not unless they poison-pilled themselves against keeping the BSD License attached to that portion of the code that was BSD Licensed. Most licenses don't have a "relicense under our license" requirement, so for most licenses, it's not a problem. The eCOS license might be an issue, since it makes specific calims with regard to granting of patent rights, which you might not be able to do, if the BSD Licensed code from which your code is partly derived embodied patents. But if that were the case, you're in a bit of trouble there anyway. 8-). > As for actual support for their compatibility, I claim that the GPL is > overreaching in it's claim to be a license on the whole of the > derivative (more below) and people see no need to heed the claim, > especially since GPL licensors have apparently not claimed a desire to > enforce it. (And some have claimed a desire to not enforce it.) Yes. I think a U.S. court test of the issue would probably hold that section to be unenforcible, and the severability clause would basically turn it into the BSD license. > The part of the GPL that is supposed to cause incompatibility does not > cause it because it is not an effective, enforcible part of the license. That's my opinion, too. I'd like to see it tested in court. > It might as well not be there (except for the problems it causes). In > any case, the BSDL is all the license needed to use the BSDL code in a > GPL'd or other restrictively-licensed derivative as long as the BSDL's > terms are honored, which is easily done, even in a GPL'd derivative. I think it can't be, if you hold forth section 6 as enforcible. If you don't, then I agree with your analysis. This was my argument pro the USL use of the BSD licensed code in SVR4, and the basis of the UCB countersuit, the settlement of which, among other things, compelled them to add it back in (this was an effect; the terms of the settlement are undisclosed). > Such overreaching on the part of the GPL-using deriver is something the > deriver needs to worry about, I suppose, but he certainly needn't worry > any more about violationg his own GPL than he would if he was the sole > licensor. And because the BSDL licensor has already licensed his work > in the derivative (which shall be forever under the BSDL, regardless of > the other owner's license on his work in the derivative), no relicense > or sublicense is necessary. I think the deriver also needs to worry about their ability to compel subsequent derivers derivative works to be licensed under the same license, more than they need to worry about any compulsion on themselves. Maybe this is what you are trying to say, and the first and second use of "deriver" in your first sentence refer to different people? > From 17USC103: > > (b) The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only > to the material contributed by the author of such work, as > distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work, > and does not imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material. > The copyright in such work is independent of, and does not affect or > enlarge the scope, duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any > copyright protection in the preexisting material. > > So the license "on the derivative" may extend only to "the material > contributed by the author of such work" and does not cover the > "preexisting material employed in the work" which is still under BSDL > and for which no relicense or sublicense is needed. > > Maybe that explains some author's preference for saying "license in the > work" instead of "license on the work". Yes. It's a nice point about "does not affect or enlarge the scope". I particularly think that the use of "affect" rather than "effect" is intentional here, though, so I think they meant "negatively", as in "the opposite of enlarge". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 16:30:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2A1A37B41A for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0071.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.71] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16vRXe-0000yz-00; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:30:19 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB4CAF0.854DFE13@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:29:52 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Use/Utilize References: <3CB2125B.8F11C442@mindspring.com> <200204090020.g390KTPL059689@grimreaper.grondar.org> <3CB2733E.F98DD29B@mindspring.com> <20020409132012.F48437@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3737A.1551931@mindspring.com> <20020410043451.GA1013@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB3DF33.5B677641@mindspring.com> <20020410073309.GA279@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB41997.214F408C@mindspring.com> <20020410130629.A16154@lpt.ens.fr> <3CB424E4.629016E0@mindspring.com> <23g023xrnd.023@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > (It's funny that you insist on bringing us back to some paraphrased quote > of stupid claims supposedly heard in GNU/Linux forums. The error of the > claim should have been obvious to anyone who had read the BSD license. > The OP was either trolling or just thinking out loud. There was no > serious controversy or attempt at obfusication going on, AFAIK. (Apart > from a couple of people who where completely ignorant of the topic.)) I think it was a troll, and I think that the error of the claim is not that obvious to most people, or these discussions would not keep poping up, or the would, but they'd have only one side to them. 8-). [ ... ] > I choose to ignore the inapplicability of the point to my comment about > the GPL saying that it doesn't cover "use" (which I quoted in a > unsuccessful attempt to remind you what we were talking about, namely > running, not things protected by copyright). I ignored it because I > thought is was a silly point to begin with since the words would mean > the same thing to 99.94% of the parties to the licenses and because it > had nothing to do with my point about the GPL anyway. I was just trying > to refer to this part of section "0": > > Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not > covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of > running the Program is not restricted, > > without having to quote what everyone has seen many times. But you use > (or utilize) it as a chance to slam the GPL's (admittedly abundant) > misleading language and avoiding my point. Obfuscation indeed. No. I think "running" and "use" in the body of the license and "use pieces of it in new free programs" is what leads to the misapprehension that it's possible to incorporate other licensed code into GPL'ed code. If I didn't talk about your point about performance of the copyrighted work, well, it's because I didn't disagree with you. 8-) 8-). > > When I pointed out that the requirement for retaining the notice > > was inclusive: > > And when I pointed out that the requirement for "retaining" the actual > license (permission) part of the license-related text was non-existent, > you ignored it. (But remember that I also noted that the presence or > absence of license text need not mean the presence or absence of > license.) No, that's not true. In this case, you *are* wrong. You are required to retain the license with the distribution. That is one of the terms of the license: * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions * are met: * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the * documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. Failure to meet those conditions fails to comply with the provision granting the permission in the first place. > I think some of the initial confusion was a result of the OP's use of > "copyright notice" for what I (and apparently you, judging from the > previous quote) assumed he meant all the related text (copyright notice > and license (permission, conditions, and disclaimer)). Yes. Technically, removing the copyright notice on a work is legal, so long as you do not assert a copyright on the work after that (I think this happened with some of Soren's code recently, actually). The problem in the case of BSD licensed code is that the removal makes you non-compliant with the license, which is your only source of rights. So I think that your and my assumption was warranted, even if the nitty-gritty details were not explained. The problem which then arises is that the OP's comments on the ability or inability to subsume BSD licensed code into GPL'ed code are impacted by the inability of such a subsumation to comply with the GPL relicensing requirement while complying with the BSD license (yes, we both hold this to be an unenforcible term in the GPL, but that's just our educated opinion ;^)). > > The entire "use/utilize" debate is an attempt to discredit an > > example of the intentional misuse of language. > > An example which richly deserved to be discredited, both because it had > nothing to do with the point it was in response to and on its (lack of) > merit. It's a shame that you can't bring yourself to admit it, > especially when there are so many good opportunities for you to rant > about RMS's misuse of language. 8-). I think you confise me with Brett Glass and John Dyson. > > Even were this attempt successful (and I do not believe that it > > has been), the only thing a success in the redefinition of the > > word "utilize" as a synonym for the word "use" would have is to > > indicate a poor choice of examples on my part, not that my premise > > was invalid (or even valid, to be fair). > > Again, the problem with that is that it wasn't your premise that was > being discussed. It was my premise; which you kept side-tracking until > I gave up in disgust. It would probably have helped if you had said: "Let's talk about controls on running software, instead". 8-) 8-). There's actually a wealth of discussion in that area, both with the proposed changes to the GPL (GPLv3) and the Microsoft Windows XP "phone home" registration requirement for continued operation after 30 days. > (BTW, I didn't SAY (as you unfairly said that I said) > that the HP and other lawyers were stupid enough to think that > those files were not published. Actually, that was one of two choices... if you intended to imply a third, I missed it. > I said only that the statements are untrue; because the files have > been published. I chose not to say > whether I thought the lawyers were making an overreaching claim in the > manner of many licenses or were quite innocently claiming something that > was true when they claimed it but which has subsequently become untrue > through the actions of others. You implicty said that, and you just said it again, by claiming that the works they claim are unpublished are, in fact, published. Only the copyright holder can publish. Copyrights are not trademarks; you do not have to assert them to maintain them. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 17: 3: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B91337B42F for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0071.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.71] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16vS2n-0006lm-00; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:02:29 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB4D277.51F744B8@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:01:59 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mate Wierdl Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: qmail (Was: Maintaining Access Control Lists ) References: <20020403144539.A11798@thales.memphis.edu> <3CAB7860.EB8DF505@mindspring.com> <20020410163728.A25502@thales.memphis.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mate Wierdl wrote: > It certainly can happen that the advice given in an rfc turns out to > be ill in the wild after a time. DNS over TCP, for example, turns out > to be prone to DOS attacks, and is much slower. UDP and TCP themselves are prone to DOS attacks, so you aren't saying anything here. The payload limitation on UDP of 512 bytes makes it impossible to comply with recent DNS RFC's, 1123 not withstanding, without explicitly supporting TCP. > Now djbdns certainly implement DNS over TCP---it just leaves it up to > the admin to, in fact, enable it as the need arises. The argument > boils down to what is enabled by default. Security, performance, > requirements registry, and knowing the size of my records dictates no > or limited TCP service availability. Practically, security, in the form of firewall response handling for requests sent out, mean that responses transiting the firewall need to be verifiably a result of request sent from local machines, which is not possible with UDP. > > > Realizing the disadvantages of "axfr", the djbdns package allows the > > > sysadmin to use other, more secure, reliable and readily available > > > tools _in addition to_ "axfr". What is wrong with this flexibility? > > > > Firewalls. > > I do not follow: so just keep axfr, and get rid off the additional > possibilities? The other tools use ports other than the DNS port. A hole in the firewall to permit DNS traffic will not permit these out of band mechanisms. And the out of band mechanisms can't use the same hole, without a different IP/port pairing, since the server can not bind to the same port as another server already there, without a MUX of some sort. > > > Which rfc describing the DNS standards requires NOTIFY? > > > > RFC 1996. > > I am not clear on this (probably I did not ask the question clearly): > does rfc 1996 mandate the implementation of NOTIFY for servers? It's standards track. Compliance with RFC 1996 mandates implementation of NOTIFY for servers. > > The issue isn't about the amount of data that has to be > > transferred, it's about the stall barrier, when any data > > has to be reloaded. > > In case of tinydns, there is no data to be reloaded: data is stored in > a file. Is "reloading data" defined to be the same as "looking up a > record from a file"? And pushing the new data to the slave happens > immediately after the update on the master. What about *during* the push? You add latency to the time it takes for a change to take effect. For practical application, e.g. an "ETRN" from a dial-on-demand transiently connected mail server, this implies an intentional latency between the "demand" (the contacting of the remote mail server for the purposes of "ETRN", which is what causes the link to be brought up) and the execution of the remainder of the act that initiated the "demand". In other words, you have to put an arbitrary delay that is 2*N + 1, where N is the latency in making the transient DNS record for the dial-on-demand mail server's dynamically assigned IP address visible to the DNS serving the remote mail server. "Immediately after" is insufficient. It *must* happen "before the client's request for the operation is acknowledged to the client". And, no, if one of your arguments is "performance", as it was above, then "reloading data" is *not* defined as "looking up a record from a file". > > Here's my argument: > > > > "All DNS data transfers should take place over the > > DNS protocol." > > Well, this requirement results in complexity, and lots of reinventing > the wheel. Oh well. Here's my favorite reformulation of Occam's Razor: "Anything that works is better than anything that doesn't" > In case of tinydns, transferring data is equivalent with transferring > a file. Perhaps you suggest that the transfer should take place over > the DNS protocol because of firewall considerations. Yes. > But exactly the > added complexity will necessarily result in security problems. I have yet to see a proof of this assumption that complexity is a sufficient (or even necessary) condition for insecurity. > Your requirement seems to be potentially an enormous burden. I guess that means that not just any high school kid can write a DNS server, then. I'm willing to accept that restriction. > I suppose you agree that the security tools associated with DNS > data transfer should also be implemented inside the DNS protocol. Yes, or in the underlying transport mechanism. > But how about requirements that are needed for these security tools > to work? For example, for TSIG to work, you need to synchronize > time between the master and slave. That's because it's badly designed. TSIG has an exploit window in the timeout on the signature. NFS has similar vulnerabilities on timing, which normally manifest as problems between clients and servers, rather than as attempts to explout: they are user visible without a cracker. The NFS problems could be instantly resolved by sending the local idea of the current time with every request that takes time information, allowing the remote system to calculate the time as a delta time relative to its local clock, without losing the ability to set specific times (with a client local time of 0, the delta becomes an absolute on the server). No more needing to synchronize clocks for file locking or "make" to work. > Should this time synchronization be done over the DNS protocol? > Afterall, the slave can be behind a firewall... You appear to be objecting to an implementation detail of something which I agree is badly designed, and then trying to conclude from it that there is no possbile good design that would address the problem without having to use your approach. > And then there is DNSSEC. It seems to be so complex that it may > defeat its own purpose: improve security. For example, at > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/dns4/chapter/ch11.html > > I read: > > We realize that DNSSEC is a bit, er, daunting. (We nearly fainted > the first time we saw it.) > > Indeed, even without DNSSEC, apparently 24% of .com servers have > misconfigured delegations. That's mostly because servers with misconfigured delegations aren't automatically considered non-authoritative (effectively diking them out of the internet). Having your servers diked off the internet is a wonderous incentive toward correctness. It even works for SPAM. > > > In case of a trusting slave, though, rsync will push the changes over > > > to the slave as soon as they happen on the master. > > > > Plus the notice latency on the master, as the changes are polled, > > rather than event-triggered, plus the notice latency on the slave, > > for the same reasons. > > > > Does not happen between two tinydns servers, though. The problem I > see is that of authentication: the recommended scheme for pushing new > data from a tinydns master to a tinydns slave assumes that the slave > trusts the master. What if the master is taken over by an attacker? Then you are screwed. Let's drop the master/slave relationship, and ask the same question: what if one of your DNS servers is taken over by an attacker? Then you are screwed. > > > Which currently in use client sends IQUERY? What does the 01/2002 draft > > > > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-obsolete-iquery-03.txt > > > > > > say about IQUERY? > > > > Whatever it says is irrelevent, until it is Standards Track. > > It is not irrelevant because it does hint at the problems with IQUERY, > and at the fact that clients do not send IQUERY anymore. Hence it is > unlikely that users will suffer from this lack of compliance. It is better to comply with a bad standard, than to be in limbo between standards. FreeBSD pthreads were incredibly screwed up for a while, when they were being moved from Draft 4 compliance to final standard compliance; as Draft 4, they were usable; as standard, they would also be usable. But in between... it was nearly impossible to make them work. In the realm of the internet, the moral equivalent is compliance with standards documents: without compliance, you lose all features which derive from interoperability, and if that interoperability failure is between clients and servers, rather than servers, you lose everything. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 18: 6:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0E4537B400; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 18:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16vT35-00044N-00; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 18:06:51 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 18:06:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: George Reid Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: mailing list comparisons? In-Reply-To: <20020410221450.A50234@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, George Reid wrote: > On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:44:22AM -0700, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > > > I am looking for a mailing list: > [...] > > I've used Ecartis (formerly Listar) fairly extensively for several projects. > I'd recommend it. It's in the ports. I've heard good and bad about Ecartis (Listar). Why do you recommend it? Does it match my desired features (such as email based administration)? I started compiling some notes at http://www.reedmedia.net/misc/mail/mail-lists-managers.html (thanks to Rahul for allowing me to use some of his notes) Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 19:17:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAEF437B404 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42AC93F30 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:18:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:17:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: what are these characters please? Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020411021840.42AC93F30@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi folks, I found these characters in a recent cvs-all commit: 20 20 20 20 20 5b 53 75 62 6d 69 74 74 65 64 20 | [Submitted | 62 79 3a 20 56 69 6c 6c 65 20 53 6b 79 74 74 1b |by: Ville Skytt.| 2c 41 64 1b 28 42 20 3c 76 69 6c 6c 65 2e 73 6b |,Ad.(B ]. | When viewed under vi, I get: Ville Skytt^[,Ad^[(B From less I get: Ville SkyttESC,AdESC(B The original email is at: http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=1425317+0+current/cvs-all+raw but it appears as "Ville Skyttd " which is presumably what I also want. background: As part of FreshPorts, the cvs-all messages are parsed into an XML document. These characters are causing grief and I'm not sure how to encode them or get the perl module XML::Writer to handle them so XML::Parser does not barf on them. FWIW: the xml is and I thought that encoding would handle those characters. thanks. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 10 19:59:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECBE637B41E for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0513.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.44.3] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16vUo9-0004rX-00; Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:59:34 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB4FBFB.9D2AC7E0@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:59:07 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what are these characters please? References: <20020411021840.42AC93F30@bast.unixathome.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > I found these characters in a recent cvs-all commit: > > 20 20 20 20 20 5b 53 75 62 6d 69 74 74 65 64 20 | [Submitted | > 62 79 3a 20 56 69 6c 6c 65 20 53 6b 79 74 74 1b |by: Ville Skytt.| > 2c 41 64 1b 28 42 20 3c 76 69 6c 6c 65 2e 73 6b |,Ad.(B 79 74 74 61 40 69 6b 69 2e 66 69 3e 5d 0a 20 20 |ytta@iki.fi>]. | > > When viewed under vi, I get: > > Ville Skytt^[,Ad^[(B ANSI character set selector escape sequence for 7 bit representation of 8 bit characters. If I had to guess, I would say "eth", which is a "D" with a bar in it, unlike "thorn", which is an "O" with a forwars slash through it. 8-). Obviously a deficiency in the encapsulation of a cut-and-paste that was not attributed by encoding, because CVS commit logs are not MIME encapsulated. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 3:19:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D8437B41C for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 03:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E6283F30; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 06:20:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: Terry Lambert Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 06:19:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: what are these characters please? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <3CB4FBFB.9D2AC7E0@mindspring.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020411102024.3E6283F30@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10 Apr 2002 at 19:59, Terry Lambert wrote: > Dan Langille wrote: > > I found these characters in a recent cvs-all commit: > > > > 20 20 20 20 20 5b 53 75 62 6d 69 74 74 65 64 20 | [Submitted | 62 > > 79 3a 20 56 69 6c 6c 65 20 53 6b 79 74 74 1b |by: Ville Skytt.| 2c 41 > > 64 1b 28 42 20 3c 76 69 6c 6c 65 2e 73 6b |,Ad.(B > 61 40 69 6b 69 2e 66 69 3e 5d 0a 20 20 |ytta@iki.fi>]. | > > > > When viewed under vi, I get: > > > > Ville Skytt^[,Ad^[(B > > ANSI character set selector escape sequence for 7 bit representation > of 8 bit characters. > > If I had to guess, I would say "eth", which is a "D" with a bar in it, > unlike "thorn", which is an "O" with a forwars slash through it. 8-). > > Obviously a deficiency in the encapsulation of a cut-and-paste > that was not attributed by encoding, because CVS commit logs are > not MIME encapsulated. Given that I'm trying to process the cvs-all messages into XML documents (using the perl module XML::Writer which does not do any encoding beyond characters such as >, <, etc), any suggestions as to how to deal with such characters? I've been looking through cpan but I suspect I'm using the wrong search criteria ("encoding"). Any clues? -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 4:22:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 267EA37B400 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 04:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0021.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.21] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16vcer-00063s-00; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 04:22:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB571D6.2C10B9AA@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 04:21:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what are these characters please? References: <20020411102024.3E6283F30@bast.unixathome.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > On 10 Apr 2002 at 19:59, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Ville Skytt^[,Ad^[(B > > > > ANSI character set selector escape sequence for 7 bit representation > > of 8 bit characters. > > > > If I had to guess, I would say "eth", which is a "D" with a bar in it, > > unlike "thorn", which is an "O" with a forwars slash through it. 8-). > > > > Obviously a deficiency in the encapsulation of a cut-and-paste > > that was not attributed by encoding, because CVS commit logs are > > not MIME encapsulated. > > Given that I'm trying to process the cvs-all messages into XML documents > (using the perl module XML::Writer which does not do any encoding beyond > characters such as >, <, etc), any suggestions as to how to deal with such > characters? I've been looking through cpan but I suspect I'm using the > wrong search criteria ("encoding"). Any clues? The character sets selected are documented in ANSI 3.64; you can also find them in the VT220 and VT320 programming guides. Given that the committer was likely using EUC encoding for JIS-208, it seems unrecoverable. Most likely, you are going to have to live with it. The problem is that the character set attribution was lost in the cut-and-paste job, and it was the input method of the session doing the cut-and-paste that probably replaced it with the escape sequence. So you would need to know the original character set (ISO-8859-1 is my guess, given the poster's Finnish email address), and the input method and display character set used (I would say it was cut from a "kterm" and pasted through a Kanji EUC or Shift-JIS input method, given the committers email address). Basically, anything that isn't ISO-8859-1 is pretty much lost, since that's what CVS stores. If you want to get complicated, the email address is actually , and anything not inside the "<" ">" is comments. Email addresses aren't allowed to have special characters in them (US ASCII strikes again!). I don't think you are going to be able to automate it into a particular character set because the posting isn't in a particular character set. You're basically going to get whatever is in the CVS logs, as is, which will mean some strange stuff, occasionally. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 4:38:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 209AC37B416 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 04:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E48BB3F30; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 07:38:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: Terry Lambert Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 07:38:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: what are these characters please? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <3CB571D6.2C10B9AA@mindspring.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020411113858.E48BB3F30@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11 Apr 2002 at 4:21, Terry Lambert wrote: > Dan Langille wrote: > > On 10 Apr 2002 at 19:59, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Ville Skytt^[,Ad^[(B > > > > > > ANSI character set selector escape sequence for 7 bit representation of > > > 8 bit characters. > > > > > > If I had to guess, I would say "eth", which is a "D" with a bar in it, > > > unlike "thorn", which is an "O" with a forwars slash through it. 8-). > > > > > > Obviously a deficiency in the encapsulation of a cut-and-paste > > > that was not attributed by encoding, because CVS commit logs are > > > not MIME encapsulated. > > > > Given that I'm trying to process the cvs-all messages into XML documents > > (using the perl module XML::Writer which does not do any encoding beyond > > characters such as >, <, etc), any suggestions as to how to deal with > > such characters? I've been looking through cpan but I suspect I'm using > > the wrong search criteria ("encoding"). Any clues? > > The character sets selected are documented in ANSI 3.64; you can > also find them in the VT220 and VT320 programming guides. Given > that the committer was likely using EUC encoding for JIS-208, it > seems unrecoverable. > > Most likely, you are going to have to live with it. I have to find a solution as non-ISO-8859-1 are causing grief when it comes to reading in the XML. See below. > So you would need to know the original character set (ISO-8859-1 is > my guess, given the poster's Finnish email address), and the input > method and display character set used (I would say it was cut from > a "kterm" and pasted through a Kanji EUC or Shift-JIS input method, > given the committers email address). I'm not at all worried about restoring the original text. I'm going for a "ignore what I can't use"-solution. > Basically, anything that isn't ISO-8859-1 is pretty much lost, since > that's what CVS stores. ISO-8859-1 is fine by me. FWIW, the XML headers include: The encoding problem actually occurs later when I try to process the XML with XML::Parser : not well-formed (invalid token) at line 14, column 34, byte 559 at /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.005/i386-freebsd/XML/Parser.pm line 185 And line 14 is: [Submitted by: Ville SkyttESC,AdESC(B <ville.skytta@iki.fi>] I think my goal here is remove all non-ISO-8859-1 characters from the incoming cvs-all message. I've been searching newsgroups (comp.lang.perl and comp.text.xml) trying to find a simple solution. > If you want to get complicated, the email address is actually > , and anything not inside the "<" ">" is > comments. Email addresses aren't allowed to have special > characters in them (US ASCII strikes again!). I agree, it's too complicated for the objective at hand. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 4:54:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E94CB37B416 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 04:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sobek.lan ([213.104.86.88]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020411115421.GOWC20036.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@sobek.lan>; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 12:54:21 +0100 Received: (from greid@localhost) by sobek.lan (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g3BBsKn00785; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 12:54:20 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from greid@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: sobek.lan: greid set sender to greid@FreeBSD.org using -f Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 12:54:20 +0100 From: George Reid To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: mailing list comparisons? Message-ID: <20020411125420.A757@FreeBSD.org> References: <20020410221450.A50234@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from reed@reedmedia.net on Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 06:06:51PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 06:06:51PM -0700, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > I've heard good and bad about Ecartis (Listar). Why do you recommend it? Because it's trivial to configure and use and it's never given me any problems. > Does it match my desired features (such as email based administration)? Yes. http://www.listar.org/features.php. Not sure if it supports web-based management off the top of my head. -- George C A Reid Tel: (08701) 200870 Ext. 26654 WWW: http://people.FreeBSD.org/~greid/ Mob: (07740) 197460 FreeBSD Committer/Developer greid@FreeBSD.org Oriel College, Oxford University george.reid@oriel.ox.ac.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 5:30:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB21737B435 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 05:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 16vdik-0001dQ-00; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:30:34 +0200 Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3BBsJcU037626 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:54:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@localhost.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g3BBsJVM037625 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:54:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: what are these characters please? Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 11:54:18 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <20020411021840.42AC93F30@bast.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > When viewed under vi, I get: > > Ville Skytt^[,Ad^[(B I suspect that's an ISO 2022 character set switch sequence. Possibly generated by (X)Emacs. > The original email is at: > http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=1425317+0+current/cvs-all+raw > but it appears as "Ville Skyttd " which is presumably > what I also want. Ville Skyttä. The final character is a-umlaut. In ISO Latin 1 it's code 0xE4. This gives 0x64 ('d') if the top bit is reset. If vowel-umlaut can't be represented, Finns usually just substitute the base vowel character, so you get Ville Skytta (cf. the email address). > FWIW: the xml is and I thought > that encoding would handle those characters. Yes, but for some reason it was written in a different encoding. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 5:30:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1269D37B442 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 05:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 16vdik-0001dQ-01; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:30:34 +0200 Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3BCB1cU038092 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:11:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@localhost.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g3BCB1xo038091 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:11:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: what are these characters please? Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 12:11:00 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <3CB4FBFB.9D2AC7E0@mindspring.com> <20020411102024.3E6283F30@bast.unixathome.org> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > Given that I'm trying to process the cvs-all messages into XML documents > (using the perl module XML::Writer which does not do any encoding beyond > characters such as >, <, etc), any suggestions as to how to deal with such > characters? I've been looking through cpan but I suspect I'm using the > wrong search criteria ("encoding"). Any clues? Well what encoding do your XML documents use? I guess your basic situation is that you are getting unknown characters in an unknown encoding. You then have to manually figure out what this is, e.g. you asked here and I'm telling you it's character U+00E4. You can now store this in your encoding of choice. BTW, if you're hazy how all this works (and it sure looks like it), I recommend you read "A Tutorial on Character Code Issues" http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/chars.html This generally doesn't solve problems by itself, but it helps people to *understand* the problem. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 5:38:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9314F37B405 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 05:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2B93F30; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 08:39:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: Terry Lambert Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 08:38:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: what are these characters please? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <3CB571D6.2C10B9AA@mindspring.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020411123917.6F2B93F30@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11 Apr 2002 at 4:21, Terry Lambert wrote: > The character sets selected are documented in ANSI 3.64; you can > also find them in the VT220 and VT320 programming guides. Given > that the committer was likely using EUC encoding for JIS-208, it > seems unrecoverable. > > Most likely, you are going to have to live with it. I think I'll just remove the "offending" characters. I've found two solutions, each of which produces the same result: $ tr -d '\001'-'\011''\013''\014''\016'-'\037''\200'-'\377' < xml.txt > xml3.txt $ diff xml3.txt xml.txt 14c14 < [Submitted by: Ville Skytt,Ad(B <ville.skytta@iki.fi>] --- > [Submitted by: Ville Skyttd <ville.skytta@iki.fi>] $ cat xml.txt | sed -e 's/[^ -~][^ -~]*//g' > xml5.txt $ diff xml5.txt xml.txt 14c14 < [Submitted by: Ville Skytt,Ad(B <ville.skytta@iki.fi>] --- > [Submitted by: Ville Skyttd <ville.skytta@iki.fi>] I think I'll go with the above regex and add it to my perl script. Does anyone have any suggestions? Tony: my thanks for your replies. It has been useful in understanding the problem. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 5:53:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD3A537B41C for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 05:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73703F30; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 08:54:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 08:53:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: what are these characters please? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020411125429.C73703F30@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote > Dan Langille wrote: > > > Given that I'm trying to process the cvs-all messages into XML documents > > (using the perl module XML::Writer which does not do any encoding beyond > > characters such as >, <, etc), any suggestions as to how to deal with such > > characters? I've been looking through cpan but I suspect I'm using the > > wrong search criteria ("encoding"). Any clues? > > Well what encoding do your XML documents use? It was UTF-8. Some months ago it changed to ISO-8859-1 when I first encountered this type of issue (back then it was Lyngbl). > I guess your basic situation is that you are getting unknown > characters in an unknown encoding. You then have to manually figure > out what this is, e.g. you asked here and I'm telling you it's > character U+00E4. You can now store this in your encoding of choice. Given that the incoming characters are supposed to be ISO-8859-1 (which is what CVS stores (see Tony's message), I'm quite sure the best thing to do is just ignore the non-standard characters (i.e. by removing them). What's your view on that approach? p.s. I caught your message by reading the archives, I wasn't subscribed to -chat at the time but I am now. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 5:57:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4191F37B404 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 05:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a228.otenet.gr [212.205.215.228]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3BCvDwA028475 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:57:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3BCn8A3041030 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:49:08 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g3BCn8Pm041029; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:49:08 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:49:08 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Dan Langille Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what are these characters please? Message-ID: <20020411124908.GD39629@hades.hell.gr> References: <3CB571D6.2C10B9AA@mindspring.com> <20020411113858.E48BB3F30@bast.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20020411113858.E48BB3F30@bast.unixathome.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-04-11 07:38, Dan Langille wrote: > And line 14 is: > > [Submitted by: Ville SkyttESC,AdESC(B <ville.skytta@iki.fi>] > > I think my goal here is remove all non-ISO-8859-1 characters from the > incoming cvs-all message. I've been searching newsgroups (comp.lang.perl > and comp.text.xml) trying to find a simple solution. You can probably get away with using col(1) and proper environment settings to filter the CVS logs: $ env LANG=en_US LC_ALL=en_US.ISO8859-1 col -b Søren Schmidt Søren Schmidt $ env LANG=C LC_ALL=C col -b Søren Schmidt Sren Schmidt The name of Søren includes "o/" and it is a valid ISO8859-1 character. col(1) can understand and filter correctly based on this fact, but I'm not sure if it can strip all the ANSI escape codes that you were having trouble with. It's just an idea. Might work, or might not... I don't know how you are using the CVS logs, so you'll have to set up some Perl pipe to do the work yourself. Perhaps something like: close(STDIN); open(STDIN, "env LANG=en_US LC_ALL=en_US.ISO8859-1 col -b |"); Giorgos Keramidas FreeBSD Documentation Project keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr} http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 5:59: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48ED037B483 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 05:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4448B3F30; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 08:59:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: Giorgos Keramidas Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 08:58:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: what are these characters please? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <20020411124908.GD39629@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020411113858.E48BB3F30@bast.unixathome.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020411125936.4448B3F30@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11 Apr 2002 at 15:49, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2002-04-11 07:38, Dan Langille wrote: > > And line 14 is: > > > > [Submitted by: Ville SkyttESC,AdESC(B > > <ville.skytta@iki.fi>] > > > > I think my goal here is remove all non-ISO-8859-1 characters from the > > incoming cvs-all message. I've been searching newsgroups (comp.lang.perl > > and comp.text.xml) trying to find a simple solution. > > You can probably get away with using col(1) and proper environment > settings to filter the CVS logs: > > $ env LANG=en_US LC_ALL=en_US.ISO8859-1 col -b > S ren Schmidt > S ren Schmidt > > $ env LANG=C LC_ALL=C col -b > S ren Schmidt > Sren Schmidt > > The name of S ren includes "o/" and it is a valid ISO8859-1 character. > col(1) can understand and filter correctly based on this fact, but I'm not > sure if it can strip all the ANSI escape codes that you were having trouble > with. It's just an idea. Might work, or might not... > > I don't know how you are using the CVS logs, so you'll have to set up > some Perl pipe to do the work yourself. Perhaps something like: > > close(STDIN); > open(STDIN, "env LANG=en_US LC_ALL=en_US.ISO8859-1 col -b |"); The website (http://www.FreshPorts.org/) takes incoming messages from the cvs-all mailing list and uses procmail to dump the raw message to disk. Then a daemon takes over and processes the file using perl. I don't know if what you suggested will apply to this situation. Thank you. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 8:12: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D807837B417 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 08:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 16vgEt-0001vI-00; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 17:11:55 +0200 Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3BElgcU081606 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:47:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@localhost.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g3BElgNW081603 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:47:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: what are these characters please? Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:47:41 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <20020411125429.C73703F30@bast.unixathome.org> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > > Well what encoding do your XML documents use? > > It was UTF-8. Some months ago it changed to ISO-8859-1 when I first > encountered this type of issue (back then it was Lyngbl). Seems like a bad choice to me, because how are you now going to handle characters outside the meager repertoire of ISO 8859-1? > Given that the incoming characters are supposed to be ISO-8859-1 (which is > what CVS stores (see Tony's message), Terry This is wrong. CVS stores byte streams. There is no implied character set. Nor is there a way to tag any data or CVS meta data with a character set. You can _by convention_ decide that all data stored in a particular CVS repository is to be interpreted in the character set, but I'm not aware of such a convention being in place for FreeBSD. > I'm quite sure the best thing to do is just ignore the non-standard > characters (i.e. by removing them). What's your view on that approach? I still don't know quite what you are trying to accomplish. Are you looking for a purely mechanical solution? Or are you prepared to do manual fix-ups? Do strive for accuracy? Or do you only want to quickly crunch data and don't care if people's names are mutilated? Since CVS doesn't store character set information, anything outside the printable ASCII range (0x20..0x7E) is *undefined* and thus basically an error condition. There are two ways to deal with this: 1. You can just automatically strip the characters (or replace them by a placeholder like '?' or such) and get on. This will mutilate some names, but since the input is already undefined, you can argue that you really won't do any further damage anyway. 2. You can manually try to figure out what those characters are and fix them up in one of several ways: replace by UTF-8, convert to ASCII-only, etc. If you go with (1), I strongly suggest that you kill everything outside ASCII and do not consider the input to be ISO 8859-1. Grepping over the FreeBSD commit logs, I see names that, although technically valid ISO 8859-1 sequences, were clearly input in ISO 8859-2 or KOI-8R environments. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 8:12: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 037D237B419 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 08:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 16vgEt-0001vI-01; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 17:11:55 +0200 Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3BFBEcU082061 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 17:11:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@localhost.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g3BFBEAv082060 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 17:11:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: what are these characters please? Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:11:13 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <3CB571D6.2C10B9AA@mindspring.com> <20020411113858.E48BB3F30@bast.unixathome.org> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > I have to find a solution as non-ISO-8859-1 are causing grief when it > comes to reading in the XML. See below. Note that there is stuff in the commit logs that is valid but doesn't make sense in ISO 8859-1 encoding. For example, somebody by the name of "Slaven Rezi" is credited. I very much doubt that the final character is really ae ligature (as per 8859-1); c with acute (8859-2) seems more plausible. It gets worse for Cyrillic names. So if you assume the input to be ISO-8859-1-encoded, you will preserve the stuff that was actually input in 8859-1 but totally screw up the stuff that was originally input in some other encoding. > I'm not at all worried about restoring the original text. I'm going for a > "ignore what I can't use"-solution. Okay. > I think my goal here is remove all non-ISO-8859-1 characters from the > incoming cvs-all message. It makes more sense to clobber everything that isn't ASCII. chomp($line); $line ~= tr/\x09\x20-\x7E/?/c; # tab, printable ASCII Putting a replacement character such as '?' or '#' there is probably less confusing than outright deleting the offending bytes. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 11:52:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A295537B41B for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 11:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E34203F30 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:53:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:52:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: CVS log encoding (was Re: what are these characters please?) Reply-To: dan@langille.org In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020411185322.E34203F30@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have combined your two replies into one message. On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:47, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Dan Langille wrote: > > > > Well what encoding do your XML documents use? > > > > It was UTF-8. Some months ago it changed to ISO-8859-1 when I first > > encountered this type of issue (back then it was Lyngbl). > > Seems like a bad choice to me, because how are you now going to > handle characters outside the meager repertoire of ISO 8859-1? > > > Given that the incoming characters are supposed to be ISO-8859-1 (which > > is what CVS stores (see Tony's message), > Terry > This is wrong. CVS stores byte streams. There is no implied character > set. Nor is there a way to tag any data or CVS meta data with a > character set. [sorry Terry; I worked with a chap in New Zealand by the name of Tony Lamberton and whenever I see your name...] > You can _by convention_ decide that all data stored in a particular > CVS repository is to be interpreted in the character set, > but I'm not aware of such a convention being in place for FreeBSD. If there is no convention, then it will be up to me to pick an encoding and stick with it. > > I'm quite sure the best thing to do is just ignore the non-standard > > characters (i.e. by removing them). What's your view on that approach? > > I still don't know quite what you are trying to accomplish. Are > you looking for a purely mechanical solution? Or are you prepared > to do manual fix-ups? Do strive for accuracy? Or do you only want > to quickly crunch data and don't care if people's names are mutilated? The goal is to accurately reflect the cvs log (see http://test.freshports.org for the beta set). But since I've started to encounter these characters which are causing strife, I'm willing to take what I can get. > Since CVS doesn't store character set information, anything outside > the printable ASCII range (0x20..0x7E) is *undefined* and thus > basically an error condition. There are two ways to deal with this: > > 1. You can just automatically strip the characters (or replace them > by a placeholder like '?' or such) and get on. This will mutilate > some names, but since the input is already undefined, you can > argue that you really won't do any further damage anyway. > > 2. You can manually try to figure out what those characters are and > fix them up in one of several ways: replace by UTF-8, convert > to ASCII-only, etc. I like a combination of the two: - Fix any characters which are outside the chosen encoding and save the data immediately. Flag the record as having been altered. - Optionally fix flagged records at some future date This will achieve the primary goal of always having up-to-date information and [optionally] achieve a not-so-primary goal of having accurate data. > If you go with (1), I strongly suggest that you kill everything > outside ASCII and do not consider the input to be ISO 8859-1. > Grepping over the FreeBSD commit logs, I see names that, although > technically valid ISO 8859-1 sequences, were clearly input in ISO > 8859-2 or KOI-8R environments. Thank you for grepping those logs for me. It would be good if we could have one encoding which covers all possible characters. I think I'll settle for the UTF-8 encoding (unless you can recommend another). On 11 Apr 2002 at 15:11, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Dan Langille wrote: > > > I have to find a solution as non-ISO-8859-1 are causing grief when it > > comes to reading in the XML. See below. > > Note that there is stuff in the commit logs that is valid but doesn't > make sense in ISO 8859-1 encoding. For example, somebody by the > name of "Slaven Rezi" is credited. I very much doubt that the > final character is really ae ligature (as per 8859-1); c with acute > (8859-2) seems more plausible. It gets worse for Cyrillic names. I'm beginning to see the extent of the problem. > So if you assume the input to be ISO-8859-1-encoded, you will > preserve the stuff that was actually input in 8859-1 but totally > screw up the stuff that was originally input in some other encoding. That points at using something like UTF-8 I think. > > I'm not at all worried about restoring the original text. I'm going > > for a "ignore what I can't use"-solution. > > Okay. > > > I think my goal here is remove all non-ISO-8859-1 characters from the > > incoming cvs-all message. > > It makes more sense to clobber everything that isn't ASCII. > > chomp($line); > $line ~= tr/\x09\x20-\x7E/?/c; # tab, printable ASCII > > Putting a replacement character such as '?' or '#' there is probably > less confusing than outright deleting the offending bytes. Good point. That will ease the manual fix-up process too. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 13:27:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EF4037B404 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0116.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.116] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16vlA3-00063F-00; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:27:16 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB5F189.3DEA9304@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:26:49 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what are these characters please? References: <20020411113858.E48BB3F30@bast.unixathome.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > > Most likely, you are going to have to live with it. > > I have to find a solution as non-ISO-8859-1 are causing grief when it > comes to reading in the XML. See below. [ ... ] > I'm not at all worried about restoring the original text. I'm going for a > "ignore what I can't use"-solution. > > > Basically, anything that isn't ISO-8859-1 is pretty much lost, since > > that's what CVS stores. > > ISO-8859-1 is fine by me. FWIW, the XML headers include: > > > > The encoding problem actually occurs later when I try to process the XML > with XML::Parser : > > not well-formed (invalid token) at line 14, column 34, byte 559 at > /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.005/i386-freebsd/XML/Parser.pm line 185 > > And line 14 is: > > [Submitted by: Ville SkyttESC,AdESC(B <ville.skytta@iki.fi>] > > I think my goal here is remove all non-ISO-8859-1 characters from the > incoming cvs-all message. I've been searching newsgroups (comp.lang.perl > and comp.text.xml) trying to find a simple solution. An "escape" character *is* a valid ISO-8859-1 character. > > If you want to get complicated, the email address is actually > > , and anything not inside the "<" ">" is > > comments. Email addresses aren't allowed to have special > > characters in them (US ASCII strikes again!). > > I agree, it's too complicated for the objective at hand. The only other option would be to pre-parse for ANSI escape sequences, and strip them. This basically means eating everything between the and the next character betwwn 0x40 and 0x80 (for the most part; that should do it for what you have seen so far, unless you hit something like sixels). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 13:33:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C476237B405; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9FB99239A1B; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:33:38 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: George Reid Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: mailing list comparisons? Message-ID: <20020411203338.GL507@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20020410221450.A50234@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="XFI+TFG+M3u0jUjZ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020410221450.A50234@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster X-Message-Flag: Ditch this virus-ridden Outlook crap and get a real mailer! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --XFI+TFG+M3u0jUjZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2002-04-10 22:14 +0100, George Reid wrote: > On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:44:22AM -0700, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: >=20 > > I am looking for a mailing list: > [...] >=20 > I've used Ecartis (formerly Listar) fairly extensively for several projec= ts. > I'd recommend it. It's in the ports. Is there *any* kind of decent (not read-the-source-you-idiot) documentation for eCartis? Undocumented software is not a product. Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter The process of scientific discovery mailto:gsutter@zer0.org is, in effect, a continual flight http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ from wonder. --Albert Einstein hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --XFI+TFG+M3u0jUjZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE8tfMiIBUx1YRd/t0RAo+LAJ9kaxUiGgseFzAQ/d/63NqSJ830UQCeO+HC hv+jg6Q2KcQYFrLYqt0mygg= =xQ/+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --XFI+TFG+M3u0jUjZ-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 13:40:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA12837B404 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0116.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.116] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16vlMi-0001oj-00; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:40:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB5F49B.C21B24E9@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:39:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what are these characters please? References: <3CB571D6.2C10B9AA@mindspring.com> <20020411113858.E48BB3F30@bast.unixathome.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > I think my goal here is remove all non-ISO-8859-1 characters from the > > incoming cvs-all message. > > It makes more sense to clobber everything that isn't ASCII. > > chomp($line); > $line ~= tr/\x09\x20-\x7E/?/c; # tab, printable ASCII > > Putting a replacement character such as '?' or '#' there is probably > less confusing than outright deleting the offending bytes. In this case, it's probably ISO 2022 based EUC encoding for JIS-208, so it's not going to be relevent anyway, since what has to be replaced is a chacter set change sequence, a character, and a change back. In this particular case, the advice about non-printable ASCII characters doesn't work, either, since it will only swallow the , and not the rest of the sequence or the terminator. Living with it -- or stripping the control characters -- is probably the only thing that will work. The character set encoding information was lost when the cut-and-paste happened (this is a good argument for Unicode, *NOT* UTF-8, and 16 bit wchar_t). In this case, stripping the escape sequence leaves a "d", and stripping the non-printable ISO-8859-1 or ASCII leaves a ",Ad(B". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 13:59: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11C7737B405 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3B2D3F2D; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:59:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: Terry Lambert Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:58:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: what are these characters please? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <3CB5F189.3DEA9304@mindspring.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020411205954.F3B2D3F2D@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11 Apr 2002 at 13:26, Terry Lambert wrote: > An "escape" character *is* a valid ISO-8859-1 character. Oh.... Perhaps I should be talking to wht XML::Parser people then. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 14:44: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1867137B41D for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E68B3F2D for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 17:44:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 17:43:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: setting up daily builds Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020411214456.0E68B3F2D@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What do you folks do if you want to build a system/application on a daily basis? How do you view the results? Any history on those results (yesterday's build, last Tuesday's build, etc)? -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 14:51:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93CF37B405 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sobek.lan ([62.252.9.15]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020411215107.ULWI29761.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@sobek.lan>; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:51:07 +0100 Received: (from greid@localhost) by sobek.lan (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g3BLp5206123; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:51:05 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from greid@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: sobek.lan: greid set sender to greid@FreeBSD.org using -f Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:51:04 +0100 From: George Reid To: Gregory Sutter Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: mailing list comparisons? Message-ID: <20020411225104.A6096@FreeBSD.org> References: <20020410221450.A50234@FreeBSD.org> <20020411203338.GL507@klapaucius.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020411203338.GL507@klapaucius.zer0.org>; from gsutter@zer0.org on Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 01:33:38PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 01:33:38PM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > Is there *any* kind of decent (not read-the-source-you-idiot) > documentation for eCartis? The README file and sample list configurations generated by the software have always proved sufficient for me. YMMV. > Undocumented software is not a product. I don't care; I'm not trying to market it. -- George C A Reid Tel: (08701) 200870 Ext. 26654 WWW: http://people.FreeBSD.org/~greid/ Mob: (07740) 197460 FreeBSD Committer/Developer greid@FreeBSD.org Oriel College, Oxford University george.reid@oriel.ox.ac.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 15:30:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5C2A37B419 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 16vn5V-0000B2-01; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 00:30:41 +0200 Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3BLi2cU093944 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 23:44:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@localhost.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g3BLi19D093943 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 23:44:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: what are these characters please? Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 21:44:01 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <3CB571D6.2C10B9AA@mindspring.com> <20020411113858.E48BB3F30@bast.unixathome.org> <3CB5F49B.C21B24E9@mindspring.com> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > In this particular case, the advice about non-printable ASCII > characters doesn't work, Yes, it does. > either, since it will only swallow the , and not the rest > of the sequence or the terminator. Which is perfectly within the goal of turning the input stream into a validly encoded sequence. That we are left with a handful of garbage characters instead of a single one is of no concern. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 15:31: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FA8B37B404 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 16vn5U-0000B2-00; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 00:30:40 +0200 Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3BLbJcU093679 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 23:37:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull@localhost.mips.inka.de) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g3BLbJ37093678 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 23:37:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mailnull) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: what are these characters please? Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 21:37:18 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <20020411113858.E48BB3F30@bast.unixathome.org> <3CB5F189.3DEA9304@mindspring.com> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > An "escape" character *is* a valid ISO-8859-1 character. It is a control character, which is certainly not valid in this application context. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 18:10:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9752837B416 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 18:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0186.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.186] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16vpaP-0000C6-00; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 18:10:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB633FB.3B268A0@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 18:10:19 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what are these characters please? References: <20020411113858.E48BB3F30@bast.unixathome.org> <3CB5F189.3DEA9304@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > An "escape" character *is* a valid ISO-8859-1 character. > > It is a control character, which is certainly not valid in this > application context. It's not validly renderable by an HTML browser. The problem is the conversion of the data file, whose format is unspecified, into HTML. If you were to cat this data to a "World21" console or even, I believe, "kterm", then it would display as it was intended. So the problem is the imperfect conversion of what's stored, not the fact that the data is stored. If you want to make a rule that CVS log entries must be made in HTML, then you can make that rule. Without such a rule, though, you get what you get. It's arguable that the ISO-8859-1 restriction is wrong, as well, and that there should be special provision for attachments (e.g. the log should be treated as RFC 2045 message bodies of type message/rfc822). The specific problem in this case is that someone pasted some valid binary data, without attributing the encoding, so that the encoding could be normalized to UTF-8 encoded Unicode, so that browsers would have all necessary information to render it. It seems that the complaint about the data is more kicking and screaming that there aren't any rules on commit message encoding and contents. CVS provides mechanisms which would allow you to reject commit messages containing anything other than printable US ASCII. AFAICT, though, the horse has already left the barn, unless there is going to be repository surgery to normalize the already denormal data. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 18:14:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7347937B405 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 18:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0186.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.186] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16vpdl-0004xn-00; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 18:14:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB634CB.6F306CF3@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 18:13:47 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what are these characters please? References: <3CB571D6.2C10B9AA@mindspring.com> <20020411113858.E48BB3F30@bast.unixathome.org> <3CB5F49B.C21B24E9@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > In this particular case, the advice about non-printable ASCII > > characters doesn't work, > > Yes, it does. > > > either, since it will only swallow the , and not the rest > > of the sequence or the terminator. > > Which is perfectly within the goal of turning the input stream into > a validly encoded sequence. That we are left with a handful of > garbage characters instead of a single one is of no concern. If you were intent on doing that, you'd convert it to an "a" with a diaresis over it, since that's also a "validly encoded sequence". Let's also be perfectly clear here: you are redefining validity to suit a particular output processing tool. This adds constraints at the wrong place: if you are going to have such constraints, make them on the commit message processing script, to reject commit messages that don't fit within the arbitrary limitations imposed by the relatively poor tools you are using. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 18:34:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C46737B416 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 18:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0186.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.186] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16vpxU-0001fE-00; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 18:34:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB63991.7B33851F@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 18:34:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dan@langille.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: setting up daily builds References: <20020411214456.0E68B3F2D@bast.unixathome.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > What do you folks do if you want to build a system/application on a daily > basis? How do you view the results? Any history on those results > (yesterday's build, last Tuesday's build, etc)? Normally, I do not set up daily builds for FreeBSD, because of the way the tree consistency is not guaranteed on CVSup snapshots, and the lack of enforcement against committers of buildability on all commits. For a normal corporate production environment, I generally maintain two checked out tree instances, and update and build via cron jobs. Each checkout is done by (1) tagging the tree and then (2) checking out via the tag. With two instances, it's possible to maintain a rolling build that will automatically roll back changes which break a build under the tag, and inform the guilty party of the files involved in the breakage (you do it this way so that your tags can be light-weight instead of being full on branch tags). This is generally necessary in production environments, along with the tagging, so that you can do bug tracking and regression testing against particular beta builds that are released to Q/A for testing (without a Q/A department, this is much less necessary ;^)). If you can't repeat history, well, then your "fix" will end up being "can't reproduce", which is totally unacceptable. You might as well have all your testing done ad-hoc, with no real regression testing to prove anything has ever been truly resolved (I've worked in a place where that was the procedure, and the resulting product was *not* pretty). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 18:35:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2B1637B416 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 18:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C6B73F2D; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 21:36:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: Terry Lambert Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 21:35:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: what are these characters please? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <3CB634CB.6F306CF3@mindspring.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020412013627.5C6B73F2D@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11 Apr 2002 at 18:13, Terry Lambert wrote: > Let's also be perfectly clear here: you are redefining validity to > suit a particular output processing tool. This adds constraints > at the wrong place: if you are going to have such constraints, > make them on the commit message processing script, to reject commit > messages that don't fit within the arbitrary limitations imposed by > the relatively poor tools you are using. I don't think I'm going to get anyone to modify the FreeBSD cvs commit system in order to suit the needs of FreshPorts. I'm converting the cvs- all email message to XML prior to processing said XML into the FreshPorts database. One goal is expanding the FreshPorts concept to other operating systems (e.g. NetBSD). I'll have even less chance of convincing them to change for me. So I'm assuming I have no control over the incoming data. Therefore, I'll just deal with it. The situations are sufficiently rare that I can safely delete characters I don't like, set a flag in the XML to indicate modified data, and process the XML into the database. At a later time, I can go back in and modify the data accordingly. In the mean time, the commit gets logged into FreshPorts and the users can see it. thanks. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 22:39:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C2337B400 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 22:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 744343F2D for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 01:40:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 01:39:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: CVS log encoding (was Re: what are these characters please?) Reply-To: dan@langille.org References: In-reply-to: <20020411185322.E34203F30@bast.unixathome.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Message-Id: <20020412054009.744343F2D@bast.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11 Apr 2002 at 14:52, Dan Langille wrote: > On 11 Apr 2002 at 15:11, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > > > I think my goal here is remove all non-ISO-8859-1 characters from the > > > incoming cvs-all message. > > > > It makes more sense to clobber everything that isn't ASCII. > > > > chomp($line); > > $line ~= tr/\x09\x20-\x7E/?/c; # tab, printable ASCII I wound up using this: # # look for non-printable characters. # this shows you them: perl -le 'print map chr,0x20..0x7e' # if ($message =~ /[^\x0a\x09\x20-\x7E]/) { # we have messy characters in there $message =~ tr/\x0a\x09\x20-\x7E/?/c; $EncodingLosses = 'true'; } > > Putting a replacement character such as '?' or '#' there is probably less > > confusing than outright deleting the offending bytes. > > Good point. That will ease the manual fix-up process too. For those interested, please view http://test.freshports.org/devel/cvsweb/ and look at the commit for 10 Apr 2002 12:58:54. The encoding loss is indicated by the red graphic you see under the date. The message in question has not been manually amended. My thanks to those that helped understand and solve the problem. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 11 23:30:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07E7037B404 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 2002 23:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA20008 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 00:30:34 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook may make your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020412002808.00e5fc50@nospam.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@nospam.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 00:30:27 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Room shares at O'Reilly Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone interested in sharing a room at the O'Reilly conference? The cheapest room one can get at the conference hotel is $185 per night.... A bit rich for most folks' blood. But split among two people it's more bearable.... And there are hotels nearby for $90/night. If you're going to the conference and are interested in saving major money on a hotel by sharing accommodations, please drop an e-mail.... --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 12 9: 0:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82FAE37B416 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a041.otenet.gr [212.205.215.41]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3CG0QhX021305 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 19:00:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3CG0RMu003166 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 19:00:27 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g3CEesKT002700; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 17:40:54 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 17:40:54 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Bob Bomar Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: overclocking and freebsd Message-ID: <20020412144054.GB2610@hades.hell.gr> References: <20011110215343.C961@bsd.alexe.org> <20020411182041.H45395@darius.2y.net> <20020411200534.A25472@ns.museum.rain.com> <20020412042041.GA80748@peitho.fxp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020412042041.GA80748@peitho.fxp.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Moved to -chat since this is no longer a "question" :)] On 2002-04-12 00:20, Bob Bomar wrote: > > > > FreeBSD pushes the hardware pretty hard as it is. I would bet you > > a dozen doughnuts that FreeBSD at 850 MHz will outperform Win2k at > > 1 GHz. > > I will actually prove that. My P-166 running 4.4-Release, apache, > postfix, mysql, and DNS ran faster than my PII-400 running just a > base Win 98. I mean faster as in, it started up faster, and it ran > Star Office faster, did i metion that the P-166 was running X? That's a highly subjective metric though. My FreeBSD machine feels a lot more responsive than those Windows XP machines with faster CPUs a and larger amounts of RAM I've seen friends work on. But how does one define an objective metric of 'responsiveness'? Giorgos Keramidas FreeBSD Documentation Project keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr} http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 12 9:14: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (rwcrmhc54.attbi.com [216.148.227.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A5837B405 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from attbi.com ([12.237.241.112]) by rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020412161357.SMVK15826.rwcrmhc54.attbi.com@attbi.com>; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:13:57 +0000 Message-ID: <3CB707CF.D6DEAA19@attbi.com> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:14:08 -0500 From: Joe Halpin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: dan@langille.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: setting up daily builds References: <20020411214456.0E68B3F2D@bast.unixathome.org> <3CB63991.7B33851F@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > Dan Langille wrote: > > What do you folks do if you want to build a system/application on a daily > > basis? How do you view the results? Any history on those results > > (yesterday's build, last Tuesday's build, etc)? > > Normally, I do not set up daily builds for FreeBSD, because of > the way the tree consistency is not guaranteed on CVSup snapshots, > and the lack of enforcement against committers of buildability on > all commits. > > For a normal corporate production environment, I generally > maintain two checked out tree instances, and update and > build via cron jobs. Each checkout is done by (1) tagging the > tree and then (2) checking out via the tag. > > With two instances, it's possible to maintain a rolling build > that will automatically roll back changes which break a build > under the tag, and inform the guilty party of the files involved > in the breakage (you do it this way so that your tags can be > light-weight instead of being full on branch tags). How do you go about identifying the guilty parties? For example, if a subsystem that other code depends on breaks, that would probably cause failures in dependent subsystems. Would the owners of the dependent subsystems get email as well in that case? Also, if a subsystem fails because of an error in a header file exported by some other subsystem (which didn't fail to build), will the right developer get the email? I'm very interested in how you deal with things like this. Thanks Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 12 15:33:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jasper.nighttide.net (jasper.nighttide.net [207.5.141.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8396037B405 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 15:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jasper.nighttide.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jasper.nighttide.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g3CMXWla013979 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 18:33:32 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from darren@nighttide.net) Received: from localhost (darren@localhost) by jasper.nighttide.net (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) with ESMTP id g3CMXV72013976 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 18:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 18:33:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Darren Henderson To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: mystery technologies? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just came across a banner ad on daemonnews that points to a service I'm a bit perplexed by, http:/johncompanies.com/collocation/ It offers "A collocated FreeBSD 4.5 server, with one IP, and 2 gigabytes of disk space" for $65 with 40Gb of transfer per month, tripple homed etc. Sounds nice but... "Our steep discounts are made possible by technology that allows us to segment mainframe class servers into multiple, independent servers - each on a completely autonomous system." I don't believe I have heard of anyone porting FreeBSD to any big iron, perhaps some old Alpha mainframes? But I haven't heard of folks running multiple instances of the system on one box... It further claims each machine has at least four processors and many gigabytes of ram. and "at any given moment you will have access to a large majority of these resources" and further "This is because usage is highly non-parallel, and because server instances can be transparently moved from one physical server to the next." I'm not entirely sure what this is saying... first it sounds like you will be sharing a single server with others (jailed instances of the operating system maybe?) and in the next its implying, to me at least, that the operating system is capable of floating transparently across hardware clusters. Is this kind of stuff really out there? There are other curious statements, "We have in place sophisticated methods of performance 'smoothing' between our host machines that allows us to transparently place each server instance in an optimal performance environment." Load balancing operating system instances? "...there is no need to 'fsck' or otherwise maintain the filesystem after a crash." Anyone have any idea what these folks are doing or had any experience with them? ______________________________________________________________________ Darren Henderson darren@nighttide.net Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 12 16:44: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (mail19a.dulles19-verio.com [161.58.134.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0D09537B405 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 026367629; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 19:42:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3CB770F2.3043929E@pythonemproject.com> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:42:42 -0700 From: rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Bob Bomar , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd References: <20011110215343.C961@bsd.alexe.org> <20020411182041.H45395@darius.2y.net> <20020411200534.A25472@ns.museum.rain.com> <20020412042041.GA80748@peitho.fxp.org> <20020412144054.GB2610@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > [Moved to -chat since this is no longer a "question" :)] > > On 2002-04-12 00:20, Bob Bomar wrote: > > > > > > FreeBSD pushes the hardware pretty hard as it is. I would bet you > > > a dozen doughnuts that FreeBSD at 850 MHz will outperform Win2k at > > > 1 GHz. > > > > I will actually prove that. My P-166 running 4.4-Release, apache, > > postfix, mysql, and DNS ran faster than my PII-400 running just a > > base Win 98. I mean faster as in, it started up faster, and it ran > > Star Office faster, did i metion that the P-166 was running X? > > That's a highly subjective metric though. My FreeBSD machine feels a > lot more responsive than those Windows XP machines with faster CPUs a > and larger amounts of RAM I've seen friends work on. But how does one > define an objective metric of 'responsiveness'? > > Giorgos Keramidas FreeBSD Documentation Project > keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr} http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message I do a lot of number crunching, and FreeBSD (and Linux) usability beats Windows NT&2K by a huge factor when running ordinary applications overtop of a simulation. I think it is superior memory management that does it. Windows almost seems like its locked up in these situations, until the sim stops and then things go back to normal. Fortunately, I do not have XP to do that comparison :) Rob. -- ----------------------------- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 12 16:53:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7055937B404 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0003.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.3] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16wAqr-0003HA-00; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:53:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB7734B.DEE9ED94@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:52:43 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Halpin Cc: dan@langille.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: setting up daily builds References: <20020411214456.0E68B3F2D@bast.unixathome.org> <3CB63991.7B33851F@mindspring.com> <3CB707CF.D6DEAA19@attbi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joe Halpin wrote: > How do you go about identifying the guilty parties? For example, if a > subsystem that other code depends on breaks, that would probably cause > failures in dependent subsystems. Would the owners of the dependent > subsystems get email as well in that case? Because you have two source trees -- "the last one that worked" and "the current one", and they are both taggesd, you can cvs diff the tags in order to get the differences. Normally, what you do is copy the working tree to a new location, and cvs up[date it, logging the updated files. The difference in the revisions are enough to identify who made the modificiations. (1.173 was alfred, 1.74 was phk, etc.). You back out the modifications in revere chronological order, until the code works again. If you want to be more complicated, and you have a fully populated build tree with .depend files, you can segment the changes to identify the change that caused the problem. > Also, if a subsystem fails because of an error in a header file exported > by some other subsystem (which didn't fail to build), will the right > developer get the email? Yes. Because the header file will show up in the list of deltas. The reporting is based on the deltas and *any* build failure, not on the failing file itself. The fundamental assumption is that you start with a tree with zero build failures, so you can always back things up to that state, no matter what. By basing it on deltas, the problem blame goes to the authors of the deltas (e.g. the people who changed the interfaces on everyone else), rather than on the consumers of the interface. Or, to put it another way: "code does not rot: it takes an intentional modification to break working code". Normally, there is a human being who has organizational responsibility for backing out/fixing the minimal change set. This works well in an environment where you have a couple of lead developers that can really spew code, but aren't very careful about it. You are better off curbing your lead developers, rather than ingraining their bad work habits by ensuring that there is someone to clean up after them. Living in your own mess does wonders for bad work habits. In the long run, it's better to have a team player than a star, unless what you are doing is work no one else can do (you can't throw away your critical path resources because they are inconvenient). > I'm very interested in how you deal with things like this. It's really a tools problem. There aren't really a lot of tools which enforce good work habits on people, and those that do are considered onerous by developers, so unless it's a real requirement for participation in the process (i.e. the developer gets something out of it), then the tools chosen will be the ones that "bother" the developer least with "inconvenineces", such as "not breaking the other developer's ability to use the code". Personally, with any larger number of developers, I like to use GID protection on the CVS tree, and *not* put the developers in the group. THen I add sgid wrappers, which add the verbs "lock", "unlock", and "force". You can't checkin without a lock, and you have to build successfully before you release the lock. Releasing the lock results in a session log message being input by the lock releaser, if any commits occurred. CVSup works in this environment because the CVSup operates on a "snapshot". This works by locking, copying the repository, and unlocking. The copy is guaranteed to be a consistent and buildable snapshot of the repository. You can achieve the same effect with moving tags, if you lack space, or if you want to minimize the lockdown time (for a locally controlled project, 3AM is pretty idle; for a distributed project, you pretty much have to eat the lock). When people CVSup, they do it against the snapshot of the repository. You can wire synchornization into the unlock and the CVSup daemon, but I never bothered with the Modula 3 code that would have taken. This doesn't prevent people from sticking in bogus code and unlocking without testing it, but you can lay the blame squarely at the correct feet, in all cases, since they can't claim the failure was the result of a simultaneous update with another developer. You can also back out the changes, in all cases, until they are made functional. Basically, unless your repository is buildable nightly, then you can't guarantee completion of nightly snapshots. If you can't guarantee nightly snapshots, then you can't do consistent and automated regression testing. If you can't do consistent and automated regression testing, then you can't measure project progress, especially for maintenance cycles on already released products, but also for "next revision" products. If you want to look at it that way, you could consider it to be the first steps towards a requirements tracking process: 1) Customer requirements 2) Use cases 3) Specification 4) Deviations from fulfillment of requirements i) Failure to implement ii) Defect reports from customers 5) Regression testing i) Implementation verification ii) Defect resolution verification iii) Specification compliance verification 6) Ability to consistently and reporducibly build something to be tested 7) Self consistency of the source tree It all flows down hill from the goal of meeting the customer requirements. If you want to gear your developement processes to the model even further (e.g. by writing test cases for unit testing to ensure specification compliance before writing a line of code for the product itself, etc.), then you can carry this through to ensure that there isn't a line of code written without that line of code needing to be written to fulfill a customer requirement of some kind. You really want to build the knowledge and the quality of the product into the process, rather than into key people who might get hit by a bus, or go to work for your competitor for a salary hike you are unwilling/unable to match. It's like building a product to reduce technical support costs: 1) Ensure that each error message is unique 2) Ensure that each message can only result from a single condition, so that hueristics are not required to differentiate root causes (as much as possible) 3) Include obvious keywords/keyphrases in the error reports -- preferrably, set out in the message by bold or brackets, etc., so that they are reported to the representative 4) Build an associative database of keyword/keyphrase and solution pairs (e.g. dbVista from Raima corp.), and display them in match count/frequency-of-correctness order. 5) Hire mminimum wage monkeys for bottom tier support: you have built your knowledge into the system, rather than building it into key people. 6) Feedback #4 into the maintenance engineering process (if it can be that identified, then it can be proactively fixed and/or simply tell the user what the administrator needs to do, if it requires a priviledged operation to fix) 7) Distribute your database to OEMs/VARs/VADs/etc., so they can look smart to their customers. 8) Translate your database into other languages, when you translate your product into other languages, so front line support in Japan can be done in Japan ...though most companies stupidly consider technical support to be a "profit center" these days, and so don't spend a lot of time on trying to eliminate it (I say "stupidly" because this is how WordPerfect lost out to Microsoft Word). When you think about it, the rules you should follow in any given situation are pretty obvious. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 12 17: 4:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC64E37B404 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 17:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g3D01jU15914; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 17:01:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roo) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 17:01:45 -0700 From: Benjamin Krueger To: rob Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd Message-ID: <20020412170145.E9962@rain.macguire.net> References: <20011110215343.C961@bsd.alexe.org> <20020411182041.H45395@darius.2y.net> <20020411200534.A25472@ns.museum.rain.com> <20020412042041.GA80748@peitho.fxp.org> <20020412144054.GB2610@hades.hell.gr> <3CB770F2.3043929E@pythonemproject.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3CB770F2.3043929E@pythonemproject.com>; from rob@pythonemproject.com on Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 04:42:42PM -0700 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * rob (rob@pythonemproject.com) [020412 16:44]: > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > > [Moved to -chat since this is no longer a "question" :)] > > > > On 2002-04-12 00:20, Bob Bomar wrote: > > > > > > > > FreeBSD pushes the hardware pretty hard as it is. I would bet you > > > > a dozen doughnuts that FreeBSD at 850 MHz will outperform Win2k at > > > > 1 GHz. > > > > > > I will actually prove that. My P-166 running 4.4-Release, apache, > > > postfix, mysql, and DNS ran faster than my PII-400 running just a > > > base Win 98. I mean faster as in, it started up faster, and it ran > > > Star Office faster, did i metion that the P-166 was running X? > > > > That's a highly subjective metric though. My FreeBSD machine feels a > > lot more responsive than those Windows XP machines with faster CPUs a > > and larger amounts of RAM I've seen friends work on. But how does one > > define an objective metric of 'responsiveness'? > > > > Giorgos Keramidas FreeBSD Documentation Project > > keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr} http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/ > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > I do a lot of number crunching, and FreeBSD (and Linux) usability beats > Windows NT&2K by a huge factor when running ordinary applications > overtop of a simulation. I think it is superior memory management that > does it. Windows almost seems like its locked up in these situations, > until the sim stops and then things go back to normal. Fortunately, I > do not have XP to do that comparison :) Rob. I'd like to take this opportunity to note that this is an excellent example of how subjective usability measurements are to the task you're performing, and how you've configured and tuned the machine in question. I've worked on sluggish and speedy workstations of the linux, freebsd, and win2k variety. In all cases a little intelligent tuning and understanding of what my task was really doing to the machine usually brought usability to a reasonable, if not better, state. As we step into the performance comparison arena, we see a sign; "Here be dragons. Tread on ye foolhardy and rehearse your laments." -- Benjamin Krueger "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about." - Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 12 17:42: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4685837B405 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 17:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1BE7418F8; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 18:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by 1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5B718F7; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 18:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 18:42:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: Darren Henderson Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mystery technologies? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It offers "A collocated FreeBSD 4.5 server, with one IP, and 2 gigabytes > of disk space" for $65 with 40Gb of transfer per month, tripple homed etc. > > Sounds nice but... "Our steep discounts are made possible by technology > that allows us to segment mainframe class servers into multiple, > independent servers - each on a completely autonomous system." I don't > believe I have heard of anyone porting FreeBSD to any big iron, perhaps > some old Alpha mainframes? But I haven't heard of folks running multiple > instances of the system on one box... We've got 16 HP Superdomes around here that do that. You can segment the operating system into virtual computers. The really cool thing is that you can dynamically assign CPU and memory to one paticular "computer," as needed. Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 12 17:49:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B53437B405 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 17:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.25] (root@LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g3D0nk702599; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 20:49:47 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3CB7734B.DEE9ED94@mindspring.com> References: <20020411214456.0E68B3F2D@bast.unixathome.org> <3CB63991.7B33851F@mindspring.com> <3CB707CF.D6DEAA19@attbi.com> <3CB7734B.DEE9ED94@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 02:48:00 +0200 To: Terry Lambert , Joe Halpin From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: setting up daily builds Cc: dan@langille.org, chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:52 PM -0700 2002/04/12, Terry Lambert wrote: > Or, to put it another way: "code does not rot: it takes an > intentional modification to break working code". Usually true, but not always. Y2k is a good example of an exception. Otherwise, I'm finding this thread to be very interesting. Please continue! -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 12 19:33: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blue.gradwell.net (blue.gradwell.net [195.149.39.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1C4F037B400 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 19:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 26835 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2002 02:33:02 -0000 Received: from public1-stok1-5-cust38.manc.broadband.ntl.com (HELO access2.hanley.stade.co.uk) (213.106.97.38) by pop3.gradwell.net with SMTP; 13 Apr 2002 02:33:02 -0000 Received: from titus.hanley.stade.co.uk (titus [192.168.1.5]) by access2.hanley.stade.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g3D2WZn69445 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 03:32:35 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by titus.hanley.stade.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g3D2W8F96967 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 03:32:08 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 03:32:08 +0100 From: Adrian Wontroba To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: setting up daily builds Message-ID: <20020413033208.C93690@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk Mail-Followup-To: Adrian Wontroba , chat@freebsd.org References: <20020411214456.0E68B3F2D@bast.unixathome.org> <3CB63991.7B33851F@mindspring.com> <3CB707CF.D6DEAA19@attbi.com> <3CB7734B.DEE9ED94@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 02:48:00AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE Organization: Yes, I need some of that. X-Phone: +(44) 1782 207338 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 02:48:00AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > > Or, to put it another way: "code does not rot: it takes an > > intentional modification to break working code". > Usually true, but not always. Y2k is a good example of an exception. If the mere passage of time within its design life stops code from working, it is broken. Code which had to be changed for Y2K was broken, either when it was produced, or when the decision was taken to prolong its life into the danger period. In some cases the sins of one programming generation were visited on the next. Y2K conversion of systems largely written in the early 1980s was no fun (8-( -- Adrian Wontroba To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 12 23: 5:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (f130.law11.hotmail.com [64.4.17.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6055C37B416 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 23:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 12 Apr 2002 23:05:16 -0700 Received: from 146.163.145.116 by lw11fd.law11.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 06:05:16 GMT X-Originating-IP: [146.163.145.116] From: "vidya sagar kondru" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 01:05:16 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Apr 2002 06:05:16.0313 (UTC) FILETIME=[2EAAF890:01C1E2B1] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello all, I have a problem here. In our network, one of the boxes is running on Freebsd 4.4 and another box is running on Suse Linux 7.1. The SMBFS has been configured on the Freebsd box. I want to mount this SMBFS on the Suse Linux box. And I have no clue of how to do that. I tried to use the mount command with a -t smbfs option, but its not working. If any one can let me know how to proceed that would be appreciated. Thank You in advance Sagar Kondru _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 13 2:54:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web10404.mail.yahoo.com (web10404.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 57F2E37B416 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 02:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020413095428.84553.qmail@web10404.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [61.154.19.38] by web10404.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 02:54:28 PDT Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 02:54:28 -0700 (PDT) From: William Anderson Subject: test To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org why still sig? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 13 3:10:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web10407.mail.yahoo.com (web10407.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C24BE37B400 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 03:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020413101032.97348.qmail@web10407.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [61.154.19.38] by web10407.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 03:10:32 PDT Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 03:10:32 -0700 (PDT) From: William Anderson Subject: noone To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org sig still ? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 13 3:36:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC1B737B404 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 03:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0023.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.23] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16wKtc-0000wk-00; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 03:36:40 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB80A1C.7289702B@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 03:36:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aw1@stade.co.uk Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: setting up daily builds References: <20020411214456.0E68B3F2D@bast.unixathome.org> <3CB63991.7B33851F@mindspring.com> <3CB707CF.D6DEAA19@attbi.com> <3CB7734B.DEE9ED94@mindspring.com> <20020413033208.C93690@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Adrian Wontroba wrote: > On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 02:48:00AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > > > Or, to put it another way: "code does not rot: it takes an > > > intentional modification to break working code". > > Usually true, but not always. Y2k is a good example of an exception. > > If the mere passage of time within its design life stops code from > working, it is broken. > > Code which had to be changed for Y2K was broken, either when it was > produced, or when the decision was taken to prolong its life into the > danger period. In some cases the sins of one programming generation > were visited on the next. Y2K conversion of systems largely written in > the early 1980s was no fun (8-( Some code had a design lifetime of "until Y2K"; other code had a much shorter design lifetime, and blew up because it's operational lifetime exceeded the design lifetime by decades. While it's true that there was a lot of code that was written to use a two digit date field by people who didn't know any better, there was also a lot of code that was written to use a two byte date field because main memory was $1/byte (magnetic core memory) and "mass" storage was $0.10/byte (Winchester disks), and it was simply too uneconomical at the time to produce code with larger storage/processing requirements for the date fields. Actually, it's even more arguable that a 2 byte date field was an intentional limitation; it'd be fairly trivial to permit discontinous numeric spaces, since the storage of those bytes was as 8 bit or, minimally, 6 bit values. You could quickly modify the compiler to support two byte data vs. 5 digit numberic value, and/or to add a "redefines" to explicitly handle it, or a "dd" for "date" formatting string (in the case of COBOL). Conversion of stored data would not be necessary, even if you only counted up the 10's digit, there would be at least 20 times the increment capacity, or 6 times, for 6 bit storage. I believe that John Gilmore made a recent call for "expiration dates" in software. It probably would have been reasonable to "expire" software base on its design lifetime (I don't really agree with the idea of expiring software in the anticipation of a future upgrade, which is what I believe was suggested). Actually, the perversity of human nature was fairly well understood by programmers; the "Y2K" phenomenon was commented on in academic papers as early as 1956, with the knowledge that some systems would inevitably still be in use at the roll over of the millenium, due to the inherent perversity of human nature. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 13 3:38:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE19337B404 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 03:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0023.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.23] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16wKvP-0001kc-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 03:38:31 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB80A8B.283BDFBE@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 03:38:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: noone References: <20020413101032.97348.qmail@web10407.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org William Anderson wrote: > > sig still ? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com As long as you are using a "free" mail service, you are going to pay for it by including their signature on what you post. They do that so you advertise for them, and so that when you SPAM from your free mail account, they can bar you from ever getting one legally again. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 13 6:16:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web10408.mail.yahoo.com (web10408.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8A2BC37B400 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 06:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020413131638.58552.qmail@web10408.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [61.154.19.38] by web10408.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 06:16:38 PDT Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 06:16:38 -0700 (PDT) From: William Anderson Subject: Re: noone To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3CB80A8B.283BDFBE@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > They do that so you advertise for them, and so that > when you > SPAM from your free mail account, they can bar you > from ever > getting one legally again. yes? I'd like to know how they can do this for "ever". Personally, I don't care this sig much, but for those who lurking around here, I'm afraid it'll born them out of their mind :) so I'm going for a sig-free email... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 13 6:37:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ucan.foad.org (ucan.foad.org [64.173.36.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DB7437B404 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 06:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pde@localhost) by ucan.foad.org (foad/FOAD2.0) id g3DDbCT15913; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 06:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 06:37:12 -0700 From: Pete Ehlke To: William Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: noone Message-ID: <20020413063712.A19901@ehlke.net> References: <3CB80A8B.283BDFBE@mindspring.com> <20020413131638.58552.qmail@web10408.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020413131638.58552.qmail@web10408.mail.yahoo.com>; from fbsd_chat@yahoo.ie on Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 06:16:38AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 06:16:38AM -0700, William Anderson wrote: > yes? I'd like to know how they can do this for "ever". There are a couple of old sayings: You get what you pay for; and There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. If you've not heard the same rumour that many of us have heard lately, here's the deal: it seems that companies that gave away products and services for free might be in a little economic trouble. I heard from my sister's roommate's boyfriend's cousin that one of them even had to lay off a couple of programmers, and might go out of business. -Pete To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 13 7:36:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from x.vwx.com (226.muag.wash.wacdc01r1.dsl.att.net [12.98.110.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEC2737B41E; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 07:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x.reston01.va.comcast.net (pcp742943pcs.reston01.va.comcast.net [68.49.147.101]) by x.vwx.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-60653U1000L100S0V35) with SMTP id com; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 06:58:42 -0400 From: domainmaster@vwx.com Subject: SOS VWX.COM Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 06:58:42 -0400 Message-ID: <20020413105842812.AEO2216@x.vwx.com@x.reston01.va.comcast.net> To: undisclosed-recipients:; Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ladies and Gentlmen, Please accept my most humble and sincere apologies if this email has reached you at a bad moment, or is problem to you in any fashion. My true email is listed as the return address as a gesture of my sincerity. This email is a cry for help at http://vwx.com A cry for freedom... A cry for rights... A cry for Justice... Please help...Please don't report me for sending mass email... Your email was selected on a spider done on "Prayer" Sincerely yours, Jim Anderson http://vwx.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 13 12:21:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 540F937B400 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 12:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-6-62-147-148-171.dial.proxad.net [62.147.148.171]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7268AAB027 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 21:21:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 13790 invoked by uid 1001); 13 Apr 2002 19:21:10 -0000 Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 21:21:10 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: noone Message-ID: <20020413192109.GA13754@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > As long as you are using a "free" mail service, you are going > to pay for it by including their signature on what you post. > > They do that so you advertise for them, and so that when you > SPAM from your free mail account, they can bar you from ever > getting one legally again. There's one way around: send your outgoing mail through your ISP's smtp server, as I'm doing now, while continuing to specify your address as the yahoo one. With yahoo, there's another way around: pay. (You also get pop and mail forwarding services then.) However, given their recent resetting of marketing preferences to "yes" for all their customers, I'm not sure it's a good idea to patronize them (even if they do run FreeBSD). - Rahul -- This is not a Yahoo signature. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 13 14: 0:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (rwcrmhc54.attbi.com [216.148.227.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D87E37B422 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 14:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from attbi.com ([12.237.241.112]) by rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020413205958.DXMA15826.rwcrmhc54.attbi.com@attbi.com>; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 20:59:58 +0000 Message-ID: <3CB89C59.AE2100F@attbi.com> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:00:09 -0500 From: Joe Halpin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: dan@langille.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: setting up daily builds References: <20020411214456.0E68B3F2D@bast.unixathome.org> <3CB63991.7B33851F@mindspring.com> <3CB707CF.D6DEAA19@attbi.com> <3CB7734B.DEE9ED94@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > Thanks for the info. I appreciate the effort it took to type all that in. We're using an RCS based product, which doesn't have the same capabilities as cvs. Maybe we can use cvs just for doing the nightly build. That's a thought. Anyway, thanks again, very interesting. Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 13 16:48:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A598637B404 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0206.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.206] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16wXG7-0003Cx-00; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:48:43 -0700 Message-ID: <3CB8C3C0.2B7A9801@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:48:16 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: William Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: noone References: <20020413131638.58552.qmail@web10408.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org William Anderson wrote: > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > > > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > > > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > > They do that so you advertise for them, and so that > > when you > > SPAM from your free mail account, they can bar you > > from ever getting one legally again. > > yes? I'd like to know how they can do this for "ever". By deleting your account, any time they know it's you. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 13 17:15:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (mail19a.dulles19-verio.com [161.58.134.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9E83D37B419 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 17:15:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 057447430; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 20:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3CB8C9D3.CF6ADBEF@pythonemproject.com> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 17:14:11 -0700 From: rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benjamin Krueger Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Bob Bomar , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: overclocking and freebsd References: <20011110215343.C961@bsd.alexe.org> <20020411182041.H45395@darius.2y.net> <20020411200534.A25472@ns.museum.rain.com> <20020412042041.GA80748@peitho.fxp.org> <20020412144054.GB2610@hades.hell.gr> <3CB770F2.3043929E@pythonemproject.com> <20020412170145.E9962@rain.macguire.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Benjamin Krueger wrote: > > * rob (rob@pythonemproject.com) [020412 16:44]: > > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > > > > [Moved to -chat since this is no longer a "question" :)] > > > > > > On 2002-04-12 00:20, Bob Bomar wrote: > > > > > > > > > > FreeBSD pushes the hardware pretty hard as it is. I would bet you > > > > > a dozen doughnuts that FreeBSD at 850 MHz will outperform Win2k at > > > > > 1 GHz. > > > > > > > > I will actually prove that. My P-166 running 4.4-Release, apache, > > > > postfix, mysql, and DNS ran faster than my PII-400 running just a > > > > base Win 98. I mean faster as in, it started up faster, and it ran > > > > Star Office faster, did i metion that the P-166 was running X? > > > > > > That's a highly subjective metric though. My FreeBSD machine feels a > > > lot more responsive than those Windows XP machines with faster CPUs a > > > and larger amounts of RAM I've seen friends work on. But how does one > > > define an objective metric of 'responsiveness'? > > > > > > Giorgos Keramidas FreeBSD Documentation Project > > > keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr} http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/ > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > > I do a lot of number crunching, and FreeBSD (and Linux) usability beats > > Windows NT&2K by a huge factor when running ordinary applications > > overtop of a simulation. I think it is superior memory management that > > does it. Windows almost seems like its locked up in these situations, > > until the sim stops and then things go back to normal. Fortunately, I > > do not have XP to do that comparison :) Rob. > > I'd like to take this opportunity to note that this is an excellent example of > how subjective usability measurements are to the task you're performing, and > how you've configured and tuned the machine in question. I've worked on > sluggish and speedy workstations of the linux, freebsd, and win2k variety. In > all cases a little intelligent tuning and understanding of what my task was > really doing to the machine usually brought usability to a reasonable, if not > better, state. > > As we step into the performance comparison arena, we see a sign; > "Here be dragons. Tread on ye foolhardy and rehearse your laments." > > -- > Benjamin Krueger > > "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about." > - Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) > Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message How do you tune Win2K? Or NT4? Rob. -- ----------------------------- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message