From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 0: 3:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A8F337B400 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay4.kornet.net (relay4.kornet.net [211.48.62.164]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E83943E4A for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:03:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mungmung03@kornet.net) Received: from mung03 (61.73.84.129) by relay4.kornet.net; 18 Aug 2002 16:02:57 +0900 Message-ID: <3d5f46a83df271c2@relay4.kornet.net> (added by relay4.kornet.net) From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?x/a068SrteU=?= To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dIGNoYXS01CDH4L/uwMcgs9fA2SDFrLfOudm/zSC6ubHHwLsgteW4s7TPtNkh?= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 16:10:04 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0167_01C0F10A.93A04C00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 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ICA8L3RyPg0KPC90YWJsZT4NCjxwPiZuYnNwOzwvcD4NCjwvYm9keT4NCg0KPC9odG1sPg0K ------=_NextPart_000_0167_01C0F10A.93A04C00-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 2:19:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 581E437B400; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 02:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f155.law14.hotmail.com [64.4.21.155]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03FEF43E6A; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 02:19:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pythonstein@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 02:19:35 -0700 Received: from 217.37.205.177 by lw14fd.law14.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:19:35 GMT X-Originating-IP: [217.37.205.177] From: "Alfred Pythonstein" To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Insider's scoop: Why FreeBSD is dying Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 02:19:35 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2002 09:19:35.0810 (UTC) FILETIME=[5EBB4620:01C24698] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The End of FreeBSD [ed. note: in the following text, former FreeBSD developer Mike Smith gives his reasons for abandoning FreeBSD] When I stood for election to the FreeBSD core team nearly two years ago, many of you will recall that it was after a long series of debates during which I maintained that too much organisation, too many rules and too much formality would be a bad thing for the project. Today, as I read the latest discussions on the future of the FreeBSD project, I see the same problem; a few new faces and many of the old going over the same tired arguments and suggesting variations on the same worthless schemes. Frankly I'm sick of it. FreeBSD used to be fun. It used to be about doing things the right way. It used to be something that you could sink your teeth into when the mundane chores of programming for a living got you down. It was something cool and exciting; a way to spend your spare time on an endeavour you loved that was at the same time wholesome and worthwhile. It's not anymore. It's about bylaws and committees and reports and milestones, telling others what to do and doing what you're told. It's about who can rant the longest or shout the loudest or mislead the most people into a bloc in order to legitimise doing what they think is best. Individuals notwithstanding, the project as a whole has lost track of where it's going, and has instead become obsessed with process and mechanics. So I'm leaving core. I don't want to feel like I should be "doing something" about a project that has lost interest in having something done for it. I don't have the energy to fight what has clearly become a losing battle; I have a life to live and a job to keep, and I won't achieve any of the goals I personally consider worthwhile if I remain obligated to care for the project. Discussion I'm sure that I've offended some people already; I'm sure that by the time I'm done here, I'll have offended more. If you feel a need to play to the crowd in your replies rather than make a sincere effort to address the problems I'm discussing here, please do us the courtesy of playing your politics openly. From a technical perspective, the project faces a set of challenges that significantly outstrips our ability to deliver. Some of the resources that we need to address these challenges are tied up in the fruitless metadiscussions that have raged since we made the mistake of electing officers. Others have left in disgust, or been driven out by the culture of abuse and distraction that has grown up since then. More may well remain available to recruitment, but while the project is busy infighting our chances for successful outreach are sorely diminished. There's no simple solution to this. For the project to move forward, one or the other of the warring philosophies must win out; either the project returns to its laid-back roots and gets on with the work, or it transforms into a super-organised engineering project and executes a brilliant plan to deliver what, ultimately, we all know we want. Whatever path is chosen, whatever balance is struck, the choosing and the striking are the important parts. The current indecision and endless conflict are incompatible with any sort of progress. Trying to dissect the above is far beyond the scope of any parting shot, no matter how distended. All I can really ask of you all is to let go of the minutiae for a moment and take a look at the big picture. What is the ultimate goal here? How can we get there with as little overhead as possible? How would you like to be treated by your fellow travellers? Shouts To the Slashdot "BSD is dying" crowd - big deal. Death is part of the cycle; take a look at your soft, pallid bodies and consider that right this very moment, parts of you are dying. See? It's not so bad. To the bulk of the FreeBSD committerbase and the developer community at large - keep your eyes on the real goals. It's when you get distracted by the politickers that they sideline you. The tireless work that you perform keeping the system clean and building is what provides the platform for the obsessives and the prima donnas to have their moments in the sun. In the end, we need you all; in order to go forwards we must first avoid going backwards. To the paranoid conspiracy theorists - yes, I work for Apple too. No, my resignation wasn't on Steve's direct orders, or in any way related to work I'm doing, may do, may not do, or indeed what was in the tea I had at lunchtime today. It's about real problems that the project faces, real problems that the project has brought upon itself. You can't escape them by inventing excuses about outside influence, the problem stems from within. To the politically obsessed - give it a break, if you can. No, the project isn't a lemonade stand anymore, but it's not a world-spanning corporate juggernaut either and some of the more grandiose visions going around are in need of a solid dose of reality. Keep it simple, stupid. To the grandstanders, the prima donnas, and anyone that thinks that they can hold the project to ransom for their own agenda - give it a break, if you can. When the current core were elected, we took a conscious stand against vigorous sanctions, and some of you have exploited that. A new core is going to have to decide whether to repeat this mistake or get tough. I hope they learn from our errors. Future I started work on FreeBSD because it was fun. If I'm going to continue, it has to be fun again. There are things I still feel obligated to do, and with any luck I'll find the time to meet those obligations. However I don't feel an obligation to get involved in the political mess the project is in right now. I tried, I burnt out. I don't feel that my efforts were worthwhile. So I won't be standing for election, I won't be shouting from the sidelines, and I probably won't vote in the next round of ballots. You could say I'm packing up my toys. I'm not going home just yet, but I'm not going to play unless you can work out how to make the project somewhere fun to be again. = Mike -- To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. -- Theodore Roosevelt FreeBSD is dying _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 2:23:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D59137B400 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 02:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ocean.hkr.se (ocean.hkr.se [194.47.28.148]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1FF4243E65 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 02:23:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lonewolf-freebsd@earthmagic.org) Received: (qmail 70635 invoked from network); 18 Aug 2002 09:23:44 -0000 Received: from ppp141.vic.padsl.internode.on.net (HELO Lara.earthmagic.org) (eo-lonewolf@150.101.208.140) by ocean.hkr.se with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP; 18 Aug 2002 09:23:44 -0000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020818192028.03352528@ocean.hkr.se> X-Sender: eo-lonewolf@ocean.hkr.se (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 19:23:06 +1000 To: chat@freebsd.org From: "J. 'LoneWolf' Mattsson" Subject: Re: Insider's scoop: Why FreeBSD is dying In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:19 18/08/2002 -0700, Alfred Pythonstein wrote: >The End of FreeBSD Boy was that repost the biggest flame-bait I've seen this week! I wonder if we'll ever get "The trolls are dying!" posts...? :) /Johny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 2:50: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BEC637B400; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 02:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09D6D43E6E; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 02:49:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0019.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.19] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17gMgx-0000Tr-00; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 02:49:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3D5F6D87.76848740@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 02:48:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Pythonstein Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Insider's scoop: Why FreeBSD is dying References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wow. I guess I'll address the most important point that hit home for me from that post... Examining the headers, it looks like Hotmail has a full class "B" (64.4/16); that's surprising. Why the heck do they have a full class B?!? If you are using load balancers for distribution, then you basically need only enough IP addresses to provide publically accessible VIPs to the various public services you export as seperate entities. There's no *way* they have 65,534 (subtracting out the unusable ones) of those! Seems to me, you could do all of Hotmail with well under a class C, if that. You could *probably* do it with a /28, which is the smallest BGP routable chunk UUNET supports. Does this seem odd to anyone else? Is Microsoft just an address space pig, or what? Do they consider the IPv4 address space as part of the company's valuation when making a purchase decision, or is this some legacy thing with Hotmail that no one at InterNIC bothered to correct, and they are just "address rich" by chance (this seems most likely, to me)? Inquiring minds want to know. Maybe it's just so that if a host gets RBL'ed or otherwise blacklisted, they can switch IPs, and won't have an interruption of email service to their customers? If that's the case, that implies the SPAM turnover on those things is on the other of one 65536th of the time it takes to get off a blacklist. That would imply they are sending an *incredible* amount of SPAM (obviously, that assumes a single VIP, which is really unlikely, but it's still within an order of magnitude, asuming a LocalDirector or other load balancer. Anyway, that's what I got from the post... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 3: 7:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C785437B400 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.seattleFenix.net (seattleFenix.net [216.39.145.247]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4C0443E4A for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:07:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roo@mail.seattleFenix.net) Received: (from roo@localhost) by mail.seattleFenix.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g7IA5ox15134; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:05:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roo) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:05:50 -0700 From: Benjamin Krueger To: "J. 'LoneWolf' Mattsson" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Insider's scoop: Why FreeBSD is dying Message-ID: <20020818030550.B14251@mail.seattleFenix.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020818192028.03352528@ocean.hkr.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020818192028.03352528@ocean.hkr.se>; from lonewolf-freebsd@earthmagic.org on Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 07:23:06PM +1000 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * J. 'LoneWolf' Mattsson (lonewolf-freebsd@earthmagic.org) [020818 02:23]: > At 02:19 18/08/2002 -0700, Alfred Pythonstein wrote: > >The End of FreeBSD > > Boy was that repost the biggest flame-bait I've seen this week! > > I wonder if we'll ever get "The trolls are dying!" posts...? :) > > /Johny Nono! I have seen the light! This repost has shown me the error of my ways! I understand now that FreeBSD is dead, and that this is the end. How I could have been so blind to this truth is a mystery. I have even been inspired to type the following... No longer shall FreeBSD serve my packets No processes forking for me Get out while you can, while your trees can still span This is the end of the FreeBSD racket Though Postfix does not even yet know it The network, FreeBSD will not show it Though snort will write logs, and Apache serve blogs FreeBSD really knows how to blow it So shed a tear for network stability And find a new job while you can If you really need me, in the server room I'll be Gnashing teeth at the install of XP (I'm a really crappy poet. Why doesn't someone else try instead?) -- Benjamin Krueger "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about." - Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900) ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 3:33:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A461337B400; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f126.law14.hotmail.com [64.4.21.126]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419A543E7B; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:33:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pythonstein@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:33:11 -0700 Received: from 217.37.205.177 by lw14fd.law14.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:33:10 GMT X-Originating-IP: [217.37.205.177] From: "Alfred Pythonstein" To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: The #bsdcode hall of shame Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:33:10 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2002 10:33:11.0150 (UTC) FILETIME=[A67AB0E0:01C246A2] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The #bsdcode hall of shame, starring: Paul 'moron' Saab Bill 'flamage' Fumerola Juli 'lezbo' Mallet Alfred 'drunktard' Perlstein ___________________ | TERRENCE LAMBERT| ------------------- <@EvilJuli> LAMENESS= Terry * angryskul notes that he would like to put his penis inside Terry's ass. <@phk> we should give terry a mail-quota of two emails per patch he submits. <@jkh> there are worse behaviors than Terry's doing a fine job of eroding morale. :) <@baka^ni> Oh, fuck Terry. <@EvilJuli> Tunefs can do it. <@mux> Screw that Terry asshole! <@ps> terry sucks <@ps> T TERRY.. PLZ READ CODE BEFORE TYPING EMAIL <@skul> WE'LL FIX TERRY <@skul> the annoying part about terry is that he never qualifies anything with "i think" <@skul> .... <@skul> .... <@skul> .... <@skul> .... <@skul> when terry is wrong he just migrates to another thread < cmc> skul: is there any proof that Terry even uses FreeBSD now? <@skul> i need to thrash terry with it * skul crushes terry * skul crushes terry * jmallett sits in the box and talks to dillon and terry about the wonders of the world <@mux> terry! <@jmallett> perry and terry for core! <@mux> terry and perry the blues brothers <@hideaway> screw that, I'll tell you how it's done. [but i won't do it!] <@jmallett> But I did it at Netware, honest! <@hideaway> But I implemented it. <@BigKnife> Fuck terry <@green_> Screw terry <@BigKnife> someone please fuck terry in the ass <@arr> By the amount of FreeBSD list mail terry sends, one would think he's one of the most active developers <@nik__> Heh. Terry, Charles, Theo, and JKH, all on the same core team. * dwhite- bends pattom over and inserts terry < pattom> oddly, I offered to paypal terry some money in gratitude for all his help and he just ignored me - but continued to dispense free ( advice + (we should write a tuning manual but wait no we shouldnt because it is a 2000 hour job and outdated very month) <@nik__> pattom: Problem with Terry's advice is that (in my experience) 90% of it is bullshit. But if you don't know what he's talking about it can be very tricky to work out which 90%. <@softweyr> bsdimp: and PHK won't utter/type Terry's name. <@softweyr> ssh root@election.uk.freebsd.org "cd /home; echo 'Terry * 9'>*/.vote" <@green_> so we have phk, theo and terry on mock-core <@green_> go terry! <@ps> we need to kick terry off the lists. <@ps> TERRY GO AWAY <@phk> EvilPete: listen to ps. Kicking terry out for trolling and wasting time while never contributing would be a good first move. <@ps> tell terry to go the fuck away.. his opinions are not welcome <@cmc> Watch out for his "Flamerola" alter-ego. "Leave Terry alone!" :) <@bsdimp_> WE can barely ban the clueless, what about someone like terry. <@phk> bsdimp_: of banning terry ? I think just the act of officially banning him plus an entry in the FAQ would do a lot. < vd-> whois Terry :) ? < vd-> cmc: looks like Terry - warrior :) <@ps> terry needs to go away <@Debolaz> vd-: Terry is this channels favourite way of getting out steam. <@EvilPete> phk: well, there are more offenders than terry... Maybe a good start would be "for each post of crap that you make, you get a 24 hour ban". < hearnia> ps: no, freebsd's committers need to learn how to deal with people like terry < vd-> you don't like terry < vd-> but terry commiter@ < hearnia> evilpete: when someone bumps up against terry, it's usually a committer < hearnia> ps: but terry doesn't just say crap <@ps> because TERRY IS WRONG <@ps> 99% of the time, terry is wrong <@winter> but having a FAQ entry about Terry would help. <@Debolaz> ps: I recall a statement from this channel that Terry was only wrong 90% of the time, but the problem was figuring out what that 90% was. * EvilPete . o O (Terry: you may post only 5 times a day to the lists. Make them count. Think before you post. Research and verify what you are claiming. etc) <@ps> "Terry Jar Jar Lambert" <@winter> submit all of terry's messages to Razor. <@winter> eventually we'll train Razor to reject Terry's messages. * EvilPete . o (Terry: pick somebody [other than julian] to review every one of your postings before sending it] < vd-> interesting man Terry ... < vd-> few minutes ago I tried to read some threads with Terry's replies <@EvilPete> "WARNING: you have recieved a terry lambert posting! see FAQ on trolls!" <@phk> EvilPete: better yet: Delay all terrys emails to the list for 12 hours. * phk points at Terry < DevRandom> Naah. Terry is a n easy target. <@adrian> damn, terry posts a lot to the various lists <@Holocaine> adrian: Terry appears to feel the need to respond to every single thing that could possibly be interpreted as a question about FreeBSD architecture, even when he has no idea what that actually is. <@Holocaine> adrian: Terry and Dennis-from-ETinc being prime candidates. <@adrian> terry keeps popping up with .. everything else. <@juli> I'm being a Terry that's willing to write code! <@adrian> fuck terry, he posts a lot. <@juli> I just like playing the part of Terry. <@EvilPete> juli: we have more than enough Terry to go around <@juli> * Terry decides to troll^W^H be helpful on the BoskOS lists, too < jhicks> lnb: was it Terry Lambert by any chance? < jhicks> lnb: Terry prolly told them that and stuff <@juli> -- Terry <@juli> someone is keeping a fortunes.terry, rgiht? * scottl feeds the Terry troll }8-) -!- juli changed the topic of #bsdcode to: hey look, something filesystem related, must have to do with ufs2, even though ufs2 didn't touch it! --terry <@phk> juli: we all know Terry is a jerk, but John is DEAD <@juli> "II a. Terry-Bashing" < pattom> and then I saw the vn-related trace, and then terry lambert said he thought I could induce it by doing a bunch of `finds` throughout the different vn-backed FSs <@bmilekic> In particular, Terry wrote the SYSINIT stuff <@ps> T NEW CORE .. TELL TERRY TO GO AWAY <@ps> BAN TERRY AND BRETT <@ps> maybe terry will die of a heart attack <@bright> Terry, Julian, Archie, ummm... <@ps> "Someone is hacking my windows machine when I am on Yahoo! Chat." -- Terry <@ps> "Who are you stalking online Terry?" -- ps response to terry <@EvilDES> hsu: "hey Terry, please rewrite major parts of Bugzilla from scratch" <@motminh> skul says: By replying to Terry you are proxying his messages into my mailbox. <@bright> the problem with terry is that he's "white noise", he's really smart, a great guy, but he just discourages me quite a bit <@rwatson> Except terry, and that isn't a big issue. <@EvilMux> heh, I can deal with Terry quite efficiently :-) <@baka^ni> "Hi! I see you are trying to reply to Terry!" < scottl_> 'Score -1000000: Terry' <@eric^> i thought qnx would be a little more concerned with the legal issues... or maybe i take terry too seriously * baka-san replies to a Terry message in a thread saying "You thought I read this thread, but really I didn't" < green_> rwatson: heh, I misread that terryfs ----------- |BRETT GLASS| ----------- < jmallett> jkh: and fuck Brett Glass. <@hideaway> brett glass! <@hideaway> brettglass4core! <@hideaway> I wrote this paper on my website on how core should be. <@jmallett> in 1995 <@mij> damn, where's brett glass and rob malda in the list? <@bms> brett ass -> killfile <@bms> oh man, brett ass has gotten worse <@hearnia> brett motherfucker glass <@juli> brett glass couldn't <@hearnia> as would a high speed collision between brett glass and theo <@hearnia> i'm going to create a pgp key with the comment "Sign this if you want Brett Glass off freebsd-security" < hearnia> i think we should all start sending brett glass mail every time we le ave our desks to take a dump <@bmilekic> "user is Brett Glass, off with his head" <@EvilPete> uplift: go easy on him, I send all my jmonroy/brettglass email to /d ev/null, that's gotta hurt :-) <@bright> To: Brett Glass <@bright> To: Brett Glass <@bright> * ^From:.*brett@lariat.org <@b0sk0> I'd rather take shit from Theo than take shit from Brett Glass (by the way). <@anordby> "Because I program professionally, I don't read GPLed code due to lic ense concerns." -- Brett Glass * anordby see Brett doing Microsoftish judgements. <@ashp> Brett is an odd guy in person too. <@eric^> he's supposed to be written brettcc <@juli> Solution: unsubscribe brett glass. * bmilekic doesn't really care to see what Brett Glass wrote, really, or where he has a copyright <@Studded> brett is such a loser when he tries to talk security < flynn> Brett Glass Security, Inc <@billf> today we learn from brett glass that sendmail links with libbind <@gehicks> like brett < flynn> "You are aware, Brett, that you are lecturing one of the BIND authors on < hearnia> corecode: shall i label one for you and one for brett glass? < szomb> yeah, so, I was recently informed that Brett Glass's commentary makes reading the ``boring shit'' on -security ``more fun'' <@juli> -security > -chat > brett glass < * < szomb> man, i sure wouldn't want Brett Glass in charge of securing my boxes < hearnia> brett <@bright> * ^From:.*brett@lariat.org <@ps> BAN TERRY AND BRETT <@bright> Cc: Brett Glass , odela01@ca.com, <@bright> Please don't CC me in replies to Brett, I have no idea why he chose < hearnia> with mutt, /Brett Glass\r^d works quite nicely <@kkenn> oh how I wish mutt had a way to automatically delete subthreads initiated by brett glass < cmc> kkenn: Much in the same way that you can use procmail/formail to remove duplicate messages based on a list of msgids in your mailbox, I'm sure you could record a list of Brett Glass msgids and kill anything with those in "References". < DevRandom> kkenn: i kill all mail (to|cc|from): Brett Glass. Life is so much better! <@EvilDES> kkenn: I killfile anything that from, to or cc:ed to brett < bms> Brett Ass < scottl_> ha! /. has a poll that mentions Brett Glass <@softweyr> everyone go vote for the plastinated Brett Glass at /. <@bms> remind me to killfile Brett Ass, I keep forgetting < EvilCait> tjr: do that at the brett glass lecture :) < cv> no throw bricks at the brett glass lecture < EvilCait> cv: ever meet brett in real life? <@EvilCait> that's almost brett glass height _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 7: 7:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8023637B400 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (mail19a.dulles19-verio.com [161.58.134.133]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BCCC243E42 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:07:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rob@pythonemproject.com) Received: from www.pythonemproject.com (198.104.176.109) by mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (RS ver 1.0.63s) with SMTP id 0184570090 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:05:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3D5FA9FF.2754B538@pythonemproject.com> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:06:55 -0700 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: The #bsdcode hall of shame\ FreeBSD is doing fine References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alfred Pythonstein wrote: As a user's opinion (remember what Dirty Harry said about opinions ;), FreeBSD is doing fine. Jesus Christ, I can actually use -current (at least from my cvsup date) on a daily basis. And it still has the friendliest and sometimes funniest mailing lists. Rob. -- ----------------------------- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 7:23:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B310537B400; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f173.law14.hotmail.com [64.4.21.173]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73BA443E65; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:23:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pythonstein@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:23:31 -0700 Received: from 217.37.205.177 by lw14fd.law14.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 14:23:31 GMT X-Originating-IP: [217.37.205.177] From: "Alfred Pythonstein" To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: It's dead Jim Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:23:31 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2002 14:23:31.0331 (UTC) FILETIME=[D3F2F530:01C246C2] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mad propz to Hiten 'imbecile' Pandya, btw... It is official -- Netcraft is now confirming: *BSD is dying One more crippling bombshell crushed the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last [samag.com] in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test. You don't need to be a Kreskin [amdest.com] to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying. Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers. OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts. Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house. All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead. Fact: *BSD is dying _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 8:38:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF5C037B400; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 08:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exchange.corp.cre8.com (ns.cre8.com [216.135.81.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BE143E4A; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 08:38:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sullrich@CRE8.COM) Received: by exchange.corp.cre8.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:38:12 -0400 Message-ID: <2F6DCE1EFAB3BC418B5C324F13934C9601D23142@exchange.corp.cre8.com> From: Scott Ullrich To: 'Alfred Pythonstein' , chat@freebsd.org Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: RE: It's dead Jim Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:38:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C246CD.42C9DA00" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C246CD.42C9DA00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Yes, but what about Apple? Surely OSX sales are increasing BSD installation counts? -SU -----Original Message----- From: Alfred Pythonstein [mailto:pythonstein@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 10:24 AM To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: It's dead Jim Mad propz to Hiten 'imbecile' Pandya, btw... It is official -- Netcraft is now confirming: *BSD is dying One more crippling bombshell crushed the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last [samag.com] in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test. You don't need to be a Kreskin [amdest.com] to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying. Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers. OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts. Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house. All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead. Fact: *BSD is dying _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message ------_=_NextPart_001_01C246CD.42C9DA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: It's dead Jim

Yes, but what about Apple?  Surely OSX sales are increasing BSD installation counts?

-SU

-----Original Message-----
From: Alfred Pythonstein [mailto:pythonstein@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 10:24 AM
To: chat@freebsd.org
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: It's dead Jim


Mad propz to Hiten 'imbecile' Pandya, btw...

It is official -- Netcraft is now confirming: *BSD is dying

One more crippling bombshell crushed the already beleaguered *BSD community
when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to
less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a
recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market
share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is
collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead
last [samag.com] in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

You don't need to be a Kreskin [amdest.com] to predict *BSD's future. The
hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't
be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very
bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market
share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.

FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core
developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD
developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point
more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.

Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many
users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD
posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about
7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the
volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A
recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore
there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with
the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went
out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now
BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD
is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is
to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to
decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For
all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

Fact: *BSD is dying



_________________________________________________________________
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C246CD.42C9DA00-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 9:13:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0599937B400 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6C4443E42 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:13:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from greid@FreeBSD.org) Received: from sobek.lan ([80.6.30.227]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020818161251.KYJU25423.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@sobek.lan>; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:12:51 +0100 Received: (from greid@localhost) by sobek.lan (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g7IGCrX25319; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:12:53 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from greid@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: sobek.lan: greid set sender to greid@FreeBSD.org using -f Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:12:53 +0100 From: George Reid To: Scott Ullrich Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: It's dead Jim Message-ID: <20020818171253.A25298@FreeBSD.org> References: <2F6DCE1EFAB3BC418B5C324F13934C9601D23142@exchange.corp.cre8.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <2F6DCE1EFAB3BC418B5C324F13934C9601D23142@exchange.corp.cre8.com>; from sullrich@CRE8.COM on Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 11:38:12AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 11:38:12AM -0400, Scott Ullrich wrote: [CC: trimmed] > Yes, but what about Apple? Surely OSX sales are increasing BSD installation > counts? Don't feed the trolls, please. -- George C A Reid WWW: http://people.FreeBSD.org/~greid/ Mob: (07740) 197460 FreeBSD Committer/Developer greid@FreeBSD.org Oriel College, Oxford University george.reid@oriel.ox.ac.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 9:13:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9126B37B400; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rutger.owt.com (rutger.owt.com [204.118.6.16]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05F3243E3B; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:13:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kstewart@owt.com) Received: from owt.com (owt-207-41-94-232.owt.com [207.41.94.232]) by rutger.owt.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13667; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:13:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3D5FC7A9.5090908@owt.com> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:13:29 -0700 From: Kent Stewart User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020508 Netscape6/6.2.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us, es-mx MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott Ullrich Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: It's dead Jim References: <2F6DCE1EFAB3BC418B5C324F13934C9601D23142@exchange.corp.cre8.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Scott Ullrich wrote: > Yes, but what about Apple? Surely OSX sales are increasing BSD > installation counts? Netcraft hasn't detected sites I use since they upgraded to 4.5. They all show up as "unknown". > > -SU > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alfred Pythonstein [mailto:pythonstein@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 10:24 AM > To: chat@freebsd.org > Cc: hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: It's dead Jim > > > Mad propz to Hiten 'imbecile' Pandya, btw... > > It is official -- Netcraft is now confirming: *BSD is dying > > One more crippling bombshell crushed the already beleaguered *BSD community > when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now > down to > less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a > recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market > share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is > collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead > last [samag.com] in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test. > > You don't need to be a Kreskin [amdest.com] to predict *BSD's future. The > hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't > be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking > very > bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose > market > share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. > > FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core > developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD > developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point > more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying. > > Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers. > > OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many > users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD > posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about > 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the > volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A > recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. > Therefore > there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with > the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts. > > Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went > out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. > Now > BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house. > > All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. > *BSD > is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is > to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD > continues to > decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For > all practical purposes, *BSD is dead. > > Fact: *BSD is dying > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > -- Kent Stewart Richland, WA http://users.owt.com/kstewart/index.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 9:55:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2152137B400 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tesla.distributel.net (nat.MTL.distributel.NET [66.38.181.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8680943E3B for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:55:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmilekic@unixdaemons.com) Received: (from bmilekic@localhost) by tesla.distributel.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g7IGrSR21673; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:53:28 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bmilekic@unixdaemons.com) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:53:27 -0400 From: Bosko Milekic To: Alfred Pythonstein Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The #bsdcode hall of shame Message-ID: <20020818125327.A21617@unixdaemons.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from pythonstein@hotmail.com on Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 03:33:10AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is really interesting and a lot of it has NOT actually been said, especially the obscenities regarding Terry. People have expressed frustrations, but I have a feeling you've done: s/that anonymous idiot who occasionally posts to the lists/Terry/. Why don't you just step forward and tell us who you are, I'm sure that no one really cares enough to do something about it anyway. I mean, by now, it's quite obvious that you're not making a point at all because if you were, you wouldn't be going anonymous. Therefore, all that you're really doing is venting your frustrations and letting go of all those repressed emotions you have from, I don't know, lack of RealLife friends, lack of sex, lack of whatever - it's not important - it's so incredibly obvious from the way these posts are written. It's almost like you think that you're actually hurting someone by doing this, and that makes you feel special. It makes you feel like you were put on this Earth with a purpose. Come on, be a real (wo)Man. Take off that mask and show us that you really care about the opinion you're spewing. Obviously, you could just stay quiet, keep it to yourself, keep posting, and violate sheep because your own mother won't bend over for you, even out of pitty; and I wouldn't be surprised if you did. On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 03:33:10AM -0700, Alfred Pythonstein wrote: > The #bsdcode hall of shame, starring: For the uninformed, #bsdcode is an IRC channel on Efnet that has become quite open recently, so it's always filled with obscenities and often just random shit-shooting. No one with half a real life there takes the random shit-shooting seriously, and often it's just done sarcastically and jokingly to the point where it's totally absurd - JerkCity style. There was a time where people used to talk about technical issues there - and it was useful for that - but now that it's filled with a lot of losers (like the person posting this), it's mostly just a big shoot-shit party. Cheerio, -- Bosko To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 10: 9:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6A3837B400; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wso-h001.wsonline.net (12-254-8-189.client.attbi.com [12.254.8.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61AF243E6E; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:09:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seahorse51@attbi.com) Received: from seahorse.attbi.com (trilluser@seahorse [192.168.1.101]) by wso-h001.wsonline.net (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g7IH9CdI081616; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:09:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seahorse51@attbi.com) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020818110747.00ac1a98@mail.seahorse.wsonline.net> X-Sender: seahorse@mail.seahorse.wsonline.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:09:11 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , Alfred Pythonstein From: Andy Subject: Re: Insider's scoop: Why FreeBSD is dying Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3D5F6D87.76848740@mindspring.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Remember that Hotmail is a part of MSN, and they would have a need for that many IP addresses, what with their "Internet content" service. Andy At 03:48 08/18/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >Wow. > >I guess I'll address the most important point that hit home for me >from that post... > >Examining the headers, it looks like Hotmail has a full class "B" >(64.4/16); that's surprising. Why the heck do they have a full >class B?!? If you are using load balancers for distribution, then >you basically need only enough IP addresses to provide publically >accessible VIPs to the various public services you export as seperate >entities. There's no *way* they have 65,534 (subtracting out the >unusable ones) of those! > >Seems to me, you could do all of Hotmail with well under a class >C, if that. You could *probably* do it with a /28, which is the >smallest BGP routable chunk UUNET supports. > >Does this seem odd to anyone else? Is Microsoft just an address >space pig, or what? Do they consider the IPv4 address space as >part of the company's valuation when making a purchase decision, >or is this some legacy thing with Hotmail that no one at InterNIC >bothered to correct, and they are just "address rich" by chance >(this seems most likely, to me)? > >Inquiring minds want to know. > >Maybe it's just so that if a host gets RBL'ed or otherwise >blacklisted, they can switch IPs, and won't have an interruption >of email service to their customers? If that's the case, that >implies the SPAM turnover on those things is on the other of one >65536th of the time it takes to get off a blacklist. That would >imply they are sending an *incredible* amount of SPAM (obviously, >that assumes a single VIP, which is really unlikely, but it's >still within an order of magnitude, asuming a LocalDirector or >other load balancer. > >Anyway, that's what I got from the post... > >-- Terry > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 10:35:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC79937B400; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AD5843E65; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:35:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0215.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.215] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17gTx9-0000yk-00; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:35:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3D5FDA8F.5D735D38@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:34:07 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Cc: Alfred Pythonstein , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Hotmail (was Re: Insider's scoop: Why FreeBSD is dying) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020818110747.00ac1a98@mail.seahorse.wsonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andy wrote: > Remember that Hotmail is a part of MSN, and they would have a need for that > many IP addresses, what with their "Internet content" service. Oh, I could definitely see Microsoft needing a lot of VIPs; they would need one per unique, deployed services, and potentially one per "branding" partner (depends on whether they expect a modern browser -- "Host:" being set correctly for virtual hosting). I'm "pretty sure", that they have other address blocks, as well. 8-). For service availability, though, they would only really need a small number of VIPs per colocation facility, for a large and distributed service (basically, one per redundant virtual circuit path for initial distribution). So if they were widely deployed, you would expect maybe 8 VIPs per colocation facility... but you would not expect them to be in a large, contiguous netblock: you'd expect them to be 8 here, and 8 there, etc., based on geographic location. It's actually my understanding (I'm willing to be corrected here) that HotMail is pretty centrally served, because of the protocols involved, and because of their architecture. Anyway, I guess if I could get a full class B, I'd have one, and I wouldn't be questioning *why* someone had been willing to give it to me. 8-) 8-). It just seemed mighty strange. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 10:40:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B7537B401; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACEBD43E75; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:40:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from InterJet.elischer.org ([12.232.206.8]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020818174023.SSPV1186.rwcrmhc52.attbi.com@InterJet.elischer.org>; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:40:23 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA41935; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:22:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: Kent Stewart Cc: Scott Ullrich , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: It's dead Jim In-Reply-To: <3D5FC7A9.5090908@owt.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yo! the reason you guy are the only ones answering this is because everyone else recognised it as a troll from some drunk.. give it a miss! On Sun, 18 Aug 2002, Kent Stewart wrote: > > > Scott Ullrich wrote: To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 11: 3:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FB9337B4A9; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ussenterprise.ufp.org (ussenterprise.ufp.org [208.185.30.210]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A052343E6E; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:03:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bicknell@ussenterprise.ufp.org) Received: (from bicknell@localhost) by ussenterprise.ufp.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id g7II31775250; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 14:03:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bicknell) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 14:03:01 -0400 From: Leo Bicknell To: Terry Lambert Cc: Alfred Pythonstein , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Insider's scoop: Why FreeBSD is dying Message-ID: <20020818180301.GA74970@ussenterprise.ufp.org> References: <3D5F6D87.76848740@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D5F6D87.76848740@mindspring.com> Organization: United Federation of Planets Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In a message written on Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 02:48:55AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Examining the headers, it looks like Hotmail has a full class "B" > (64.4/16); that's surprising. Why the heck do they have a full They seem to have 64.4/18. 64/8 and 65/8 are being chopped up for smaller allocations by the registries. > class B?!? If you are using load balancers for distribution, then > you basically need only enough IP addresses to provide publically > accessible VIPs to the various public services you export as seperate > entities. There's no *way* they have 65,534 (subtracting out the > unusable ones) of those! No one providing network services should ever be required to use any technology other than plain IP to provide it. That includes NAT and load balancers. If they want to have 10,000 machines (which, by the way, I believe they have well over from some press stuff on them) exposed to the Internet, and merely have a front end web server that directs users to the appropriate server more power to them. Having seen first hand the disaster that most NAT and load balancers create I know I'd avoid them if at all possible. > Maybe it's just so that if a host gets RBL'ed or otherwise > blacklisted, they can switch IPs, and won't have an interruption > of email service to their customers? If that's the case, that I'd point out most black lists are fairly good at checking registry allocation data, and blocking all the mail servers in a block if Spam continues. So if that were a problem you'd see 64.4/18 on the block list. ARIN has guidelines for allocating IP's. I don't agree with all of them, but they are fully documented on www.arin.net. I don't believe Microsoft was able to get around that process. So they are playing by the same rules and guidelines as anyone else. -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 11:11:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0FFE37B400; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www6.web2010.com (www6.web2010.com [216.157.5.254]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2369C43E3B; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:11:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marty@face2interface.com) Received: from marty.face2interface.com (marty.ulster.net [216.238.72.249]) by www6.web2010.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA07976; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 14:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020818140946.091604b0@mail.face2interface.com> X-Sender: face@mail.face2interface.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 14:10:18 -0400 To: Julian Elischer , Kent Stewart From: Marty Landman Subject: Re: It's dead Jim Cc: Scott Ullrich , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3D5FC7A9.5090908@owt.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:22 AM 8/18/02 -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: >Yo! the reason you guy are the only ones >answering this is because everyone else recognised it as a troll from >some drunk.. nothing worse than a drunken troll - they're small and they're mean! marty -- SIMPL WebSite Creation: http://face2interface.com/Home/Demo.shtml To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 11:12:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AAA637B405 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amsfep15-int.chello.nl (amsfep15-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88A7443E65 for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:12:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wouter@pair.com) Received: from hibernate.cryolabs.net ([213.132.151.88]) by amsfep15-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.5.01.03.06 201-253-122-118-106-20010523) with SMTP id <20020818181223.VNDX14519.amsfep15-int.chello.nl@hibernate.cryolabs.net> for ; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 20:12:23 +0200 Received: (qmail 27449 invoked from network); 18 Aug 2002 20:12:12 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO cocaine.cryolabs.net) (192.168.196.5) by hibernate.cryolabs.net with SMTP; 18 Aug 2002 20:12:12 +0200 Subject: Re: Hotmail (was Re: Insider's scoop: Why FreeBSD is dying) From: Wouter Van Hemel To: Terry Lambert Cc: Andy , Alfred Pythonstein , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3D5FDA8F.5D735D38@mindspring.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020818110747.00ac1a98@mail.seahorse.wsonline.net> <3D5FDA8F.5D735D38@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.7 Date: 18 Aug 2002 20:10:30 +0200 Message-Id: <1029694230.310.20.camel@cocaine> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 2002-08-18 at 19:34, Terry Lambert wrote: > > [...] > > So if they were widely deployed, you would expect maybe 8 VIPs > per colocation facility... but you would not expect them to be > in a large, contiguous netblock: you'd expect them to be 8 here, > and 8 there, etc., based on geographic location. > Microsoft seems to like putting everything in the same subnet - remember their nameserver incident a while ago? http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/16321.html Painfully hilarious. I wonder if they hire MCSE's themselves... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 12:47:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE86E37B400; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ECF243E65; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:47:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.5/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g7IJl1dc073088; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:47:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.5/8.12.4/Submit) id g7IJl1gH073087; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:47:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:47:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200208181947.g7IJl1gH073087@apollo.backplane.com> To: Marty Landman Cc: Julian Elischer , Kent Stewart , Scott Ullrich , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: It's dead Jim References: <3D5FC7A9.5090908@owt.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020818140946.091604b0@mail.face2interface.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org :At 10:22 AM 8/18/02 -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: :>Yo! the reason you guy are the only ones :>answering this is because everyone else recognised it as a troll from :>some drunk.. : :nothing worse than a drunken troll - they're small and they're mean! : :marty Well, you know, the guy has only his old run-down hotmail account to mail from, we should cut the poor shmuck some slack. And the drunks always forget their password, too. He's probably crying to M$ tech support right now. Budda Budda Budda. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 13:43:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0373837B400; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 13:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jkh-gw.queasyweasel.com (adsl-64-173-3-158.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.3.158]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51DC943E3B; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 13:43:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@queasyweasel.com) Received: from adsl-64-173-15-99.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net (jkh@mango.freebsd.com [64.173.15.99]) by jkh-gw.queasyweasel.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g7IKfcux087676; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 13:41:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@queasyweasel.com) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 13:44:12 -0700 Subject: Re: Hotmail (was Re: Insider's scoop: Why FreeBSD is dying) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Cc: Andy , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, postmaster@FreeBSD.ORG To: Terry Lambert From: Jordan K Hubbard In-Reply-To: <3D5FDA8F.5D735D38@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <405432E0-B2EB-11D6-A7FE-0003938C7B7E@queasyweasel.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can we maybe stop debating this and just have our postmaster do what he can to filter this kind of noise out? Recycled slashdot trolls are hardly the kind of content we want to see on hackers@freebsd.org and what goes on in IRC has been repeatedly made clear to have nothing to do with the project on any official basis, so we don't need discussions of IRC behavior on hackers either. If we took it up in -hackers every time somebody dissed somebody else in IRC, we'd never have the bandwidth to discuss anything else. Filters? Please? Enough is enough. - Jordan On Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 10:34 AM, Terry Lambert wrote: > Andy wrote: >> Remember that Hotmail is a part of MSN, and they would have a need >> for that >> many IP addresses, what with their "Internet content" service. > > Oh, I could definitely see Microsoft needing a lot of VIPs; they > would need one per unique, deployed services, and potentially one > per "branding" partner (depends on whether they expect a modern > browser -- "Host:" being set correctly for virtual hosting). I'm > "pretty sure", that they have other address blocks, as well. 8-). > > For service availability, though, they would only really need a > small number of VIPs per colocation facility, for a large and > distributed service (basically, one per redundant virtual circuit > path for initial distribution). > > So if they were widely deployed, you would expect maybe 8 VIPs > per colocation facility... but you would not expect them to be > in a large, contiguous netblock: you'd expect them to be 8 here, > and 8 there, etc., based on geographic location. > > It's actually my understanding (I'm willing to be corrected here) > that HotMail is pretty centrally served, because of the protocols > involved, and because of their architecture. > > Anyway, I guess if I could get a full class B, I'd have one, and > I wouldn't be questioning *why* someone had been willing to give > it to me. 8-) 8-). It just seemed mighty strange. > > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > -- Jordan K. Hubbard Engineering Manager, BSD technology group Apple Computer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 16:30:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A9B37B400; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 16:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8556543E42; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 16:30:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22541; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:30:04 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook is dangerous and makes your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020818172856.034da160@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:30:02 -0600 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Great. Now, the anti-BSD spammers are spamming BSD mailing lists. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Time to get that Hotmail account turned off. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 16:57: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B4FA37B400; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 16:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B921743E65; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 16:56:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 6A804812EA; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:53:39 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:53:39 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Alfred Pythonstein Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Trolls are dying (was: Insider's scoop: Why FreeBSD is dying) Message-ID: <20020818232339.GA43138@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 18 August 2002 at 2:19:35 -0700, Alfred Pythonstein wrote: > The End of FreeBSD > > [ed. note: in the following text, former FreeBSD developer Mike Smith gives > his reasons for abandoning FreeBSD] Former hacker? Did I miss something? [Old news omitted] > -- > To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we > are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and > servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. -- Theodore > Roosevelt What does this have to do with the matter at hand? > FreeBSD is dying Well, these trolls are maybe not dying, but they're sure looking sick. They used to be at least provocative or funny. "Alfred", you're going to have to try a whole lot harder than that. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 17:35:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C842F37B400; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A0F143E4A; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:35:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 45D2C8133C; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:31:54 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:31:54 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Alfred Pythonstein , Mike Cheponis Cc: chat@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@netbsd.org Subject: Re: It's dead Jim Message-ID: <20020819000154.GC43138@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 18 August 2002 at 7:23:31 -0700, Alfred Pythonstein wrote: > Mad propz to Hiten 'imbecile' Pandya, btw... > > It is official -- Netcraft is now confirming: *BSD is dying Mike, is that you? > You don't need to be a Kreskin [amdest.com] to predict *BSD's future. The > hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't > be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking > very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose > market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. > > FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core > developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD > developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point > more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying. > > Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers. > > OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many > users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD > posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about > 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the > volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A > recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. > Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is > consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts. > > Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went > out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. > Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house. > > All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. > *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If > *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD > continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point > in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead. > > Fact: *BSD is dying Fact: this claim is over a year old. On Sunday, 22 April 2001 at 14:44:28 -0700, Mike Cheponis wrote: > Seen on slashdot today: > http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=01/04/22/0056207&threshold=-1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&pid=80 > > "We should all keep in mind this simple truth: *BSD is dying. > > You don't need to be Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand > writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there > won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are > looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD > continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. > > Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers. > > OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How > many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD > versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to > 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts > on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore > there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at > about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are > (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the > number of FreeBSD Usenet posts. > > Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, > FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell > another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to > another charnel house. > > All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market > share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are > very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS hobbyists, > dabblers, and dilettantes. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of > a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical > purposes, *BSD is dead. " Fact: trolls are facing hard times. Fact: trolls are dying. This one is dead, but hasn't noticed it yet. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 18 17:49:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69D7237B41A; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns1.ovis.net (ns1.ovis.net [207.0.147.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F057843E6E; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:49:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chromexa@ovis.net) Received: from 207.0.147.68 (s1.pm5.ovis.net [207.0.147.68]) by ns1.ovis.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 037023B12; Sun, 18 Aug 2002 20:48:47 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: chromexa From: chromexa@ovis.net To: Jordan K Hubbard , Terry Lambert Cc: Andy , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, postmaster@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: re: Re: Hotmail (was Re: Insider's scoop: Why FreeBSD is dying) Date: 18 Aug 2002 20:57:39 -0500 X-Mailer: NeoPlanet Version: 5.2.0.1561 X-ID: 3BEB18605EB911D3BC29444553540000 X-Brand: NeoPlanet X-Build: 1561 Message-Id: <20020819004847.037023B12@ns1.ovis.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > ** Original Subject: Re: Hotmail (was Re: Insider's scoop: Why FreeBSD is dying) > ** Original Sender: Jordan K Hubbard > ** Original Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 16:43:25 -0400 (EDT) > ** Original Message follows... > > Can we maybe stop debating this and just have our postmaster do what he > can to filter this kind of noise out? Recycled slashdot trolls are > hardly the kind of content we want to see on hackers@freebsd.org and > what goes on in IRC has been repeatedly made clear to have nothing to > do with the project on any official basis, so we don't need discussions > of IRC behavior on hackers either. If we took it up in -hackers every > time somebody dissed somebody else in IRC, we'd never have the > bandwidth to discuss anything else. > > Filters? Please? Enough is enough. > > - Jordan > > On Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 10:34 AM, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Andy wrote: > >> Remember that Hotmail is a part of MSN, and they would have a need > >> for that > >> many IP addresses, what with their "Internet content" service. > > > > Oh, I could definitely see Microsoft needing a lot of VIPs; they > > would need one per unique, deployed services, and potentially one > > per "branding" partner (depends on whether they expect a modern > > browser -- "Host:" being set correctly for virtual hosting). I'm > > "pretty sure", that they have other address blocks, as well. 8-). > > > > For service availability, though, they would only really need a > > small number of VIPs per colocation facility, for a large and > > distributed service (basically, one per redundant virtual circuit > > path for initial distribution). > > > > So if they were widely deployed, you would expect maybe 8 VIPs > > per colocation facility... but you would not expect them to be > > in a large, contiguous netblock: you'd expect them to be 8 here, > > and 8 there, etc., based on geographic location. > > > > It's actually my understanding (I'm willing to be corrected here) > > that HotMail is pretty centrally served, because of the protocols > > involved, and because of their architecture. > > > > Anyway, I guess if I could get a full class B, I'd have one, and > > I wouldn't be questioning *why* someone had been willing to give > > it to me. 8-) 8-). It just seemed mighty strange. > > > > -- Terry > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > > -- > Jordan K. Hubbard > Engineering Manager, BSD technology group > Apple Computer > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message >** --------- End Original Message ----------- ** > Pithy short comment that can seldom do. Well to expand on the Mark Twain saying, "News of the Demise of *BSD is greatly exaggerated." News of the demise of many people, places or things often is very exaggerated. As long as it doesn't spark endless messages. Let's see ...sorry for the anti-socially short reply to a long message, but I like to quote whold contents and none of us, AS FAR AS I KNOW HAS SUFFER WITH A 300 BAUD WORLD!!! :) Have Fun, Sends Steve Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 19 3:18: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD29E37B40B for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 03:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocket.naverex.net (rocket.naverex.net [213.169.64.107]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D971A43E84 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 03:17:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DRWEB-DAEMON@naverex.kiev.ua) Received: from mix.naverex.net (mix.naverex.net [213.169.64.99]) by rocket.naverex.net (8.Who.Cares/8.Who.Cares) with ESMTP id NAA24019 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:17:50 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from DRWEB-DAEMON@naverex.kiev.ua) From: DRWEB-DAEMON@naverex.kiev.ua Received: from mix.naverex.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mix.naverex.net (8.Who.Cares/8.Who.Cares) with ESMTP id g7JAHlhH002724 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:17:47 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from DRWEB-DAEMON@naverex.kiev.ua) Received: (from root@localhost) by mix.naverex.net (8.12.5/8.12.1/Submit) id g7JAHk6V002720 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:17:46 +0300 (EEST)?g (envelope-from DRWEB-DAEMON@naverex.kiev.ua) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:17:46 +0300 (EEST) Message-Id: <200208191017.g7JAHk6V002720@mix.naverex.net> Subject: Undelivered mail: The software required by MRTG is now installed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To: undisclosed-recipients: ; Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dear User, The message sent by is infected by a virus and has not been delivered. DrWeb antivirus filter reports: --- DrWeb report --- ======================== DrWeb found next viruses: ======================== ÉÎÆÉÃÉÒÏ×ÁÎ Trojan.IframeExec ÉÎÆÉÃÉÒÏ×ÁÎ Win32.HLLM.Klez.4 --- DrWeb report --- An original message was storied in archive record named: drweb.infected_B8B7QI In order to receive the original message, please send request to virusalert@naverex.kiev.ua, referring to the archive record name given above. --- Antivirus service provided by DrWeb Daemon (http://www.drweb.ru) Please send your comments to DialogueScience, Inc. (http://www.dials.ru, support@dials.ru) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 19 4:36:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECCBC37B405 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 04:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3.kornet.net (relay3.kornet.net [211.48.62.163]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD0B543E75 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 04:35:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggaggung07@kornet.net) Received: from you2-8qqrs7eqb3 (61.73.135.119) by relay3.kornet.net; 19 Aug 2002 20:35:37 +0900 Message-ID: <3d60d80b3d62a0c2@relay3.kornet.net> (added by relay3.kornet.net) From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?x/a068SrteU=?= To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dIGZyZWVic2QtY2hhdLTUIMfgv+7AxyCz18DZIMWst8652b/NILq5scfAuyC15biztM+02SE=?= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:43:31 +0900 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+0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g7JF9JUa017790; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:09:25 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g7JEuPkd017701; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:56:25 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:56:24 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Matt Rohrer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT - $FreeBSD$ cvs tags Message-ID: <20020819145624.GC17245@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020808211459.GN20288@nesos.prognostikos.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020808211459.GN20288@nesos.prognostikos.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: C1EB 0653 DB8B A557 3829 00F9 D60F 941A 3186 03B6 X-Phone: +30-944-116520 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-08-08 14:14 +0000, Matt Rohrer wrote: > How does one configure cvs to produce a keyword like $FreeBSD$ ? Take a look at http://www.FreeBSD.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/cvs-freebsd/ - Giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 19 19:42:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 389B537B400 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C178F43E6A for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:42:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B683C3F28 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:42:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:41:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: What mail client for a computer newbie? Message-ID: <3D617400.1294.5D259729@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What mail client would you recommend for my mother? To be fair, she's been using pine under FreeBSD for about a year now. Now that she's about to get a new computer, it's time to upgrade to a GUI (we're going with KDE). She has the concepts of email now. But I want a simple interface. Try to think of this from a computer newbie point of view, not an X or FreeBSD point of view. cheers. -- Dan Langille I'm looking for a computer job: http://www.freebsddiary.org/dan_langille.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 19 19:53:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EC3537B400 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marbles.lost.net.au (marbles.lost.net.au [203.87.95.130]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15F5B43E77 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:53:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tim@marbles.lost.net.au) Received: (from tim@localhost) by marbles.lost.net.au (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g7K2rof99981; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:23:50 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from tim) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:23:50 +0930 From: Tim Peters To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What mail client for a computer newbie? Message-ID: <20020820025350.GA99917@lost.net.au> References: <3D617400.1294.5D259729@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D617400.1294.5D259729@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 10:41:04PM -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > What mail client would you recommend for my mother? > > To be fair, she's been using pine under FreeBSD for about a year now. > Now that she's about to get a new computer, it's time to upgrade to a > GUI (we're going with KDE). > > She has the concepts of email now. But I want a simple interface. > Try to think of this from a computer newbie point of view, not an X > or FreeBSD point of view. Kmail is a very good choice, if she'll be learning the KDE style interface anyway. Or, to avoid having to learn anything new, "xterm -e pine" :-) -- tim@lost.net.au To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 19 19:55:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFCD337B400 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail19b.rapidsite.net (mail19b.rapidsite.net [161.58.134.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 15D9043E70 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:55:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rob@pythonemproject.com) Received: from www.pythonemproject.com (198.104.176.109) by mail19b.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.63s) with SMTP id 0109312724 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:03:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3D61AE58.B48AD98F@pythonemproject.com> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:50:00 -0700 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What mail client for a computer newbie? References: <3D617400.1294.5D259729@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > > What mail client would you recommend for my mother? > > To be fair, she's been using pine under FreeBSD for about a year now. > Now that she's about to get a new computer, it's time to upgrade to a > GUI (we're going with KDE). > > She has the concepts of email now. But I want a simple interface. > Try to think of this from a computer newbie point of view, not an X > or FreeBSD point of view. > > cheers. > -- > Dan Langille > I'm looking for a computer job: > http://www.freebsddiary.org/dan_langille.php > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Sylpheed is pretty nice. It has a POP capability. Rob. -- ----------------------------- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 19 20:22:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72FA37B400 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jive.SoftHome.net (jive.SoftHome.net [66.54.152.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3794D43E72 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:22:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yid@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 26303 invoked by uid 417); 20 Aug 2002 03:22:39 -0000 Received: from shunt-smtp-out-0 (HELO softhome.net) (172.16.3.12) by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2002 03:22:39 -0000 Received: from unknown ([216.194.25.181]) (AUTH: LOGIN yid@softhome.net) by softhome.net with esmtp; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:22:37 -0600 Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:25:49 -0400 From: Joshua Lee To: "Dan Langille" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What mail client for a computer newbie? Message-Id: <20020819232549.7d5add10.yid@softhome.net> In-Reply-To: <3D617400.1294.5D259729@localhost> References: <3D617400.1294.5D259729@localhost> Organization: Plan B Software Labs X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.1claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.6) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:41:04 -0400 "Dan Langille" wrote: > What mail client would you recommend for my mother? > > To be fair, she's been using pine under FreeBSD for about a year now. > Now that she's about to get a new computer, it's time to upgrade to a > GUI (we're going with KDE). Kmail will probably be already installed if you install KDE. (Note that an important component of KDE2, kdelibs2, has been marked forbidden because of a security exploit. For that reason and the fact that KMail and other parts of 3.x are better and KDE3's faster without major reliability problems I reccomend installing the latest KDE3.) I use Sylpheed (actualy the Claws cutting-edge branch), which is a simple GTK based mail reader. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 19 20:25:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9835237B400 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.unixathome.org (bast.unixathome.org [216.187.105.150]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2506943E6E for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:25:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.unixathome.org [192.168.0.99]) by bast.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E312D3F28; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:25:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dan Langille" To: Joshua Lee Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:24:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: What mail client for a computer newbie? Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <3D617E22.24215.5D4D298D@localhost> In-reply-to: <20020819232549.7d5add10.yid@softhome.net> References: <3D617400.1294.5D259729@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Aug 2002 at 23:25, Joshua Lee wrote: > (Note that an important component of KDE2, kdelibs2, has been marked > forbidden because of a security exploit. For that reason and the fact > that KMail and other parts of 3.x are better and KDE3's faster without > major reliability problems I reccomend installing the latest KDE3.) Having recently installed KDE3 on another box, I'm tempted to go with it again. -- Dan Langille I'm looking for a computer job: http://www.freebsddiary.org/dan_langille.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 19 22: 3:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B2E437B401 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jive.SoftHome.net (jive.SoftHome.net [66.54.152.27]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5B13943E7B for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:03:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yid@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 11530 invoked by uid 417); 20 Aug 2002 05:03:36 -0000 Received: from shunt-smtp-out-0 (HELO softhome.net) (172.16.3.12) by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2002 05:03:36 -0000 Received: from unknown ([216.194.25.181]) (AUTH: LOGIN yid@softhome.net) by softhome.net with esmtp; Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:03:34 -0600 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 01:06:46 -0400 From: Joshua Lee To: "Dan Langille" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What mail client for a computer newbie? Message-Id: <20020820010646.07f54c5d.yid@softhome.net> In-Reply-To: <3D617E22.24215.5D4D298D@localhost> References: <3D617400.1294.5D259729@localhost> <3D617E22.24215.5D4D298D@localhost> Organization: Plan B Software Labs X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.1claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.6) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:24:18 -0400 "Dan Langille" wrote: > Having recently installed KDE3 on another box, I'm tempted to go with > it again. It's resource-hungry, but it is easy to use, especially for former Windows 9x users. I prefer Windowmaker, but most people would feel more at home with KDE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 0:51:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18A9137B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 00:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B8E43E70 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 00:51:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0118.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.118] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17h3nq-0006s8-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 00:51:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3D61F4DE.809FB3A2@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 00:50:54 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What mail client for a computer newbie? References: <3D617400.1294.5D259729@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Langille wrote: > > What mail client would you recommend for my mother? > > To be fair, she's been using pine under FreeBSD for about a year now. Pine. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 2:15:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2AC537B400; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gold.he.net (gold.he.net [216.218.149.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A2DF43E65; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:15:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daver@gomerbud.com) Received: from tombstone.gomerbud.com (adsl-63-196-195-53.dsl.snlo01.pacbell.net [63.196.195.53]) by gold.he.net (8.8.6/8.8.2) with ESMTP id CAA15626; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:15:17 -0700 Received: by tombstone.gomerbud.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A3ACB55F2; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:15:17 -0700 From: "David P. Reese Jr." To: chat@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Subject: What happened to xmach? Message-ID: <20020820091517.GA8330@tombstone.gomerbud.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Did the xMach project fall off of the face of the earth? Host lookups for www.xmach.org return nill. Their project on freshmeat seems to have disapeared. Whois says that they have paid for the domain through April 2003. What gives? I was just about to build a spare box to break with -CURRENT. I was planning on breaking it with xMach too. -- David P. Reese Jr. daver@gomerbud.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- C You shoot yourself in the foot. Assembler You try to shoot yourself in the foot, only to discover you must first invent the gun, the bullet, the trigger, and your foot. How to Shoot Yourself in the Foot To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 4:13:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55DBF37B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 04:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 103CF43E3B for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 04:13:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomifeh@earthlink.net) Received: from 1cust71.tnt1.toms-river.nj.da.uu.net ([67.193.143.71] helo=earthlink.net) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17h6wy-0004DC-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 04:13:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3D622477.3030508@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:13:59 -0400 From: Lawrence Sica User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.1b) Gecko/20020722 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: Dan Langille Subject: Re: What mail client for a computer newbie? References: <3D617400.1294.5D259729@localhost> <3D61F4DE.809FB3A2@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > Dan Langille wrote: > >>What mail client would you recommend for my mother? >> >>To be fair, she's been using pine under FreeBSD for about a year now. > > > Pine. > While it may not be as purty, pine would work in an aterm or xterm or term. Plus pine can use a mouse if you set it up. No learning curve here... kmail itself is much better in kde3 but still has some little "quirks" that can be annoying, and there was a fea^H^H^Hbug that make it freak on some kinds of email. I had it crash on email now and then, but I switched to mozilla and os x so I didn't really delve into it. HTH --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 4:16:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D263937B400; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 04:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9223643E75; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 04:16:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomifeh@earthlink.net) Received: from 1cust71.tnt1.toms-river.nj.da.uu.net ([67.193.143.71] helo=earthlink.net) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17h708-0006C4-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 04:16:44 -0700 Message-ID: <3D62253B.3070800@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:17:15 -0400 From: Lawrence Sica User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.1b) Gecko/20020722 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David P. Reese Jr." Cc: chat@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What happened to xmach? References: <20020820091517.GA8330@tombstone.gomerbud.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David P. Reese Jr. wrote: > Did the xMach project fall off of the face of the earth? Host lookups for > www.xmach.org return nill. Their project on freshmeat seems to have > disapeared. Whois says that they have paid for the domain through April 2003. > What gives? > > I was just about to build a spare box to break with -CURRENT. I was planning > on breaking it with xMach too. > I get nada, nothing from querying the dns servers listed as authoritative. Maybe they forgot to pay their bills? *shrug* > server ns1.newgold.net Default Server: ns1.newgold.net Address: 4.64.252.18 > xmach.org Server: ns1.newgold.net Address: 4.64.252.18 *** ns1.newgold.net can't find xmach.org: Non-existent host/domain --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 4:29:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CEF537B400; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 04:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gold.he.net (gold.he.net [216.218.149.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B40243E42; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 04:29:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daver@gomerbud.com) Received: from tombstone.gomerbud.com (adsl-63-196-195-53.dsl.snlo01.pacbell.net [63.196.195.53]) by gold.he.net (8.8.6/8.8.2) with ESMTP id EAA28851; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 04:29:35 -0700 Received: by tombstone.gomerbud.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E024955F2; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 04:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 04:29:32 -0700 From: "David P. Reese Jr." To: Lawrence Sica Cc: chat@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What happened to xmach? Message-ID: <20020820112932.GA9239@tombstone.gomerbud.com> References: <20020820091517.GA8330@tombstone.gomerbud.com> <3D62253B.3070800@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D62253B.3070800@earthlink.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 07:17:15AM -0400, Lawrence Sica wrote: > David P. Reese Jr. wrote: > >Did the xMach project fall off of the face of the earth? Host lookups for > >www.xmach.org return nill. Their project on freshmeat seems to have > >disapeared. Whois says that they have paid for the domain through April > >2003. > >What gives? > > I get nada, nothing from querying the dns servers listed as > authoritative. Maybe they forgot to pay their bills? *shrug* > > --Larry Would freshmeat nuke a project because it can't resolve the host providing the homepage and tarballs? -- David P. Reese Jr. daver@gomerbud.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- C You shoot yourself in the foot. Assembler You try to shoot yourself in the foot, only to discover you must first invent the gun, the bullet, the trigger, and your foot. How to Shoot Yourself in the Foot To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 4:39:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C0F437B401 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 04:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web21504.mail.yahoo.com (web21504.mail.yahoo.com [66.163.169.15]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8C32943E6E for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 04:39:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbilekic@yahoo.co.uk) Message-ID: <20020820113908.90626.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.132.153.94] by web21504.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:39:08 BST Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:39:08 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mosko=20Bilekic?= Subject: Why did FreeBSD fail? To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gentlemen, it's time to explain why FreeBSD is such a failure. In the following lines, David O'Brien explains why 5.0 is such a POS... <@motminh> -current is a fucking piece of shit right now. <@Keltia> hi motminh < gordont> motminh: no, it's just shitty for you, I just updated fine <@motminh> gordont: try using mucho scsi disks + IPFW <@motminh> gordont: isp(4) is shit. <@motminh> gordont: Oh, and on an SMP box <@motminh> gordont: we haven't been stable since June 27th (just before ipfw2 hit). * motminh *just* got a ffs block not freed panic with an hour old kernel. < gordont> motminh: hmm, well I can't attest for isp or ipfw, but my smp box works fine <@motminh> gordont: if I use an isp controller I can't even make it to single user <@motminh> gordont: you have a single ide disk in it? <@motminh> gordont: please do. <@motminh> gordont: we have noone (few) stress testing -current right now. <@motminh> for many the test is a basic PC and "make world". < gordont> motminh: I have to get FC down to my EMC box first though <@motminh> I hear more and more developers that only have a -current shitbox to make sure something compiles that was developed on -stable before they commit it to -current. < gordont> motminh: well, I'm proud to say my desktop at work is running -CURRENT <@motminh> Keltia: awake? <@Keltia> motminh: yes <@motminh> Keltia: are you running -current on your SMP box? <@Keltia> motminh: I'm afraid not <@motminh> Keltia: have you even seen the "launching CPU #1" message get fucked up in the middle of SCSI probe output? <@Keltia> motminh: I think I have seen it yes <@motminh> anordby: you have to `make depend' first. <@motminh> anordby: 1/2 ass commits broke building kernels <@anordby> motminh: hrrm ok <@anordby> motminh: i have a -current testing box that i intend to make rebuild world+kernel every night.. automatically from pxe installs. :) <@Keltia> motminh: still there ? <@motminh> 7ep <@motminh> Keltia: my box hasn't been stable enough <@motminh> Keltia: the /bin/sh bug that fubar'ed |'s kept me from build many ports <@Keltia> motminh: when you'll be able to try gcc33, see my message in -current --------------------------------- As you see, -CURRENT has been totally broken for almost two months now. And don't get me started on -STABLE. FreeBSD 4.x is such a joke... enterprise ready my ass! The other big problem that the FreeBSD project faces is that a lot of developers prefer to waste time flaming instead of coding. Mike Smith knew that, that's why he left. Jordan Hubbard is an asshole btw. As always, some greetings... Juli Mallett, sorry for the typo :) David O'Brien, you're a great hacker, but a real asshole Matt Dillon, I had a lot of respect for you until you replied to the Pythonstein troll, you SUCK Greg Lehey, MORON, don't feed the trolls! Alfred Perlstein, drunktard Hiten Pandya, IMBECILE Bosko Milekic, if I ever meet you, I'll kick your ass! Paul Saab, asshole Bill Fumerola, FUCK YOU Will Andrews, I suggest you join a real project Diane Bruce, the reason I never mentioned you is that you're so fucking ugly I felt sorry for you :) Yours, Mosko __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 4:56:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E343137B400; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 04:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.southeast.rr.com (smtp2.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D204143E6E; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 04:56:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bts@fake.com) Received: from mail8.nc.rr.com (fe8 [24.93.67.55]) by smtp2.southeast.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g7KBvXtu015232; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:57:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from this.is.fake.com ([24.162.238.30]) by mail8.nc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.757.75); Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:56:45 -0400 Received: by this.is.fake.com (Postfix, from userid 111) id A5A60BA12; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:56:25 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Brian T. Schellenberger" To: Mosko Bilekic , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why did FreeBSD fail? Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:56:24 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2 Cc: chat@freebsd.org References: <20020820113908.90626.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20020820113908.90626.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200208200756.25370.bts@babbleon.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday 20 August 2002 07:39 am, Mosko Bilekic wrote: | Gentlemen, it's time to explain why FreeBSD is such a | failure. | | In the following lines, David O'Brien explains why 5.0 | is such a POS... : | The other big problem that the FreeBSD project faces | is that a lot of developers prefer to waste time | flaming instead of coding. Mike Smith knew that, | that's why he left. Jordan Hubbard is an asshole btw. | | As always, some greetings... | | Juli Mallett, sorry for the typo :) | David O'Brien, you're a great hacker, but a real | asshole | Matt Dillon, I had a lot of respect for you until you | replied to the Pythonstein troll, you SUCK | Greg Lehey, MORON, don't feed the trolls! | Alfred Perlstein, drunktard | Hiten Pandya, IMBECILE | Bosko Milekic, if I ever meet you, I'll kick your ass! | Paul Saab, asshole | Bill Fumerola, FUCK YOU | Will Andrews, I suggest you join a real project | Diane Bruce, the reason I never mentioned you is that | you're so fucking ugly I felt sorry for you :) | | Yours, | Mosko On behalf of everybody even remotely involved with FreeBSD*, I'd like to thank you for this wonderful contribution to raising the level of debate. You have truly set a shining example of the way to move forward productively. If only everybody else could emulate your example then this problem that "a lot of developers prefer to waste time flaming instead of coding" would quickly be solved. -- Brian, the man from Babble-On . . . . bts@babbleon.org (personal) *And I certainly qualify since I'm *very* remotely involved in FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 5:18:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B58337B400; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 05:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.softcomca.com (relay2.softcomca.com [168.144.1.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A953D43E42; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 05:18:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chromexa@ovis.net) Received: from M2W062.mail2web.com ([168.144.108.62]) by relay2.softcomca.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:18:13 -0400 Message-ID: <294010-220028220121813894@M2W062.mail2web.com> X-EM-Version: 6, 0, 0, 3 X-EM-Registration: #00E0641810D91B008120 X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: chromexa@ovis.net X-Originating-IP: 207.0.147.85 X-URL: http://mail2web.com/ From: "chromexa@ovis.net" To: mbilekic@yahoo.co.uk, hackers@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Cc: chromexa@ovis.net Subject: RE: Why did FreeBSD fail? Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:18:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Aug 2002 12:18:13.0904 (UTC) FILETIME=[A80A2100:01C24843] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Original Message: ----------------- From: Mosko Bilekic mbilekic@yahoo=2Eco=2Euk Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:39:08 +0100 (BST) To: hackers@freebsd=2Eorg, chat@freebsd=2Eorg Subject: Why did FreeBSD fail? Gentlemen, it's time to explain why FreeBSD is such a failure=2E In the following lines, David O'Brien explains why 5=2E0 is such a POS=2E=2E=2E <@motminh> -current is a fucking piece of shit right now=2E <@Keltia> hi motminh=20 < gordont> motminh: no, it's just shitty for you, I just updated fine <@motminh> gordont: try using mucho scsi disks + IPFW <@motminh> gordont: isp(4) is shit=2E <@motminh> gordont: Oh, and on an SMP box <@motminh> gordont: we haven't been stable since June 27th (just before ipfw2 hit)=2E * motminh *just* got a ffs block not freed panic with an hour old kernel=2E < gordont> motminh: hmm, well I can't attest for isp or ipfw, but my smp box works fine <@motminh> gordont: if I use an isp controller I can't even make it to single user <@motminh> gordont: you have a single ide disk in it? <@motminh> gordont: please do=2E <@motminh> gordont: we have noone (few) stress testing -current right now=2E <@motminh> for many the test is a basic PC and "make world"=2E < gordont> motminh: I have to get FC down to my EMC box first though <@motminh> I hear more and more developers that only have a -current shitbox to make sure something compiles that was developed on -stable before they commit it to -current=2E < gordont> motminh: well, I'm proud to say my desktop at work is running -CURRENT <@motminh> Keltia: awake? <@Keltia> motminh: yes <@motminh> Keltia: are you running -current on your SMP box? <@Keltia> motminh: I'm afraid not <@motminh> Keltia: have you even seen the "launching CPU #1" message get fucked up in the middle of SCSI probe output? <@Keltia> motminh: I think I have seen it yes <@motminh> anordby: you have to `make depend' first=2E <@motminh> anordby: 1/2 ass commits broke building kernels <@anordby> motminh: hrrm ok <@anordby> motminh: i have a -current testing box that i intend to make rebuild world+kernel every night=2E=2E automatically from pxe installs=2E :) <@Keltia> motminh: still there ? <@motminh> 7ep <@motminh> Keltia: my box hasn't been stable enough <@motminh> Keltia: the /bin/sh bug that fubar'ed |'s kept me from build many ports <@Keltia> motminh: when you'll be able to try gcc33, see my message in -current --------------------------------- As you see, -CURRENT has been totally broken for almost two months now=2E And don't get me started on -STABLE=2E FreeBSD 4=2Ex is such a joke=2E=2E=2E enterprise ready my ass! The other big problem that the FreeBSD project faces is that a lot of developers prefer to waste time flaming instead of coding=2E Mike Smith knew that, that's why he left=2E Jordan Hubbard is an asshole btw=2E As always, some greetings=2E=2E=2E Juli Mallett, sorry for the typo :) David O'Brien, you're a great hacker, but a real asshole Matt Dillon, I had a lot of respect for you until you replied to the Pythonstein troll, you SUCK Greg Lehey, MORON, don't feed the trolls! Alfred Perlstein, drunktard Hiten Pandya, IMBECILE Bosko Milekic, if I ever meet you, I'll kick your ass! Paul Saab, asshole Bill Fumerola, FUCK YOU Will Andrews, I suggest you join a real project Diane Bruce, the reason I never mentioned you is that you're so fucking ugly I felt sorry for you :) Yours, Mosko __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk=2Emy=2Eyahoo=2Ecom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD=2Eorg with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message Uggh, folks does it really help us with anything to fall to the level of personal insults? I mean I doubt projects fail because someone thinks someone else is ugly=2E I might buy "Uh, you look like such a scary scienc= e fiction monster no could work with you=2E=2E=2E" but that's pushing it=2E = It would be nice to hear good reasons why something works or doesn't=2E Not page af= ter page of personl invective=2E Have Fun, Sends Steve -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 5:18:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8155E37B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 05:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC6C443E4A for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 05:18:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-4-67.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.67]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D2995002E; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:18:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 926FF3251; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:18:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DB3C4C56; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:18:27 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:18:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mosko=20Bilekic?= Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why did FreeBSD fail? In-Reply-To: <20020820113908.90626.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: X-Mailer: !/bin/sh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, [iso-8859-1] Mosko Bilekic wrote: > Gentlemen, it's time to explain why FreeBSD is such a > failure. Oooh. Somebody's *cranky*. Maybe he should take a little nap? Step out from behind the curtain, unless you're there because you've already been put there. Hrm. I'm wondering if this might be Theo.... I've heard he's a volatile creature. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR TGIFreeBSD IM: 'KrisBSD' "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU!" This message brought to you by the US Department of Homeland Security To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 6:12: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C763E37B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 06:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB1C543E72 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 06:11:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7KDBuY27546; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:11:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g7KDBuR04090; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:11:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7KDBro04083; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:11:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3D624019.819F87A@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:11:53 -0500 From: Eric Anderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What mail client for a computer newbie? References: <3D617400.1294.5D259729@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have my wife using Netscape Mail. It isn't the best, but it's fairly user friendly, simple to set up, and is the same across platforms. Netscape 4.x isn't as pretty as Mozilla 1.x or Netscape 6.x (or 7), but all do the trick. Looks alright under any window manager (heck, she's using fluxbox), and does IMAP/POP. Eric Dan Langille wrote: > > What mail client would you recommend for my mother? > > To be fair, she's been using pine under FreeBSD for about a year now. > Now that she's about to get a new computer, it's time to upgrade to a > GUI (we're going with KDE). > > She has the concepts of email now. But I want a simple interface. > Try to think of this from a computer newbie point of view, not an X > or FreeBSD point of view. > > cheers. > -- > Dan Langille > I'm looking for a computer job: > http://www.freebsddiary.org/dan_langille.php > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology The moon may be smaller than Earth, but it's further away. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 6:15:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D2F37B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 06:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from everlast.whitebird.no (everlast.whitebird.no [217.118.36.94]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AFF643E77 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 06:15:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arvinn@rns.no) Received: from arvinnfbsd.lan.ncnett.no (reir.thewhitebird.com [217.118.36.252]) by everlast.whitebird.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A224657D2; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:21:15 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Arvinn Lokkebakken To: Jordan K Hubbard Subject: Re: filtering out trolls (was Hotmail (was Re: Insider's scoop: Why FreeBSD is dying)) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:15:04 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2 References: <405432E0-B2EB-11D6-A7FE-0003938C7B7E@queasyweasel.com> In-Reply-To: <405432E0-B2EB-11D6-A7FE-0003938C7B7E@queasyweasel.com> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200208201515.04081.arvinn@rns.no> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday 18 August 2002 22:44, Jordan K Hubbard wrote: > Can we maybe stop debating this and just have our postmaster do what he= =20 > can to filter this kind of noise out? Recycled slashdot trolls are=20 > hardly the kind of content we want to see on hackers@freebsd.org and=20 > what goes on in IRC has been repeatedly made clear to have nothing to=20 > do with the project on any official basis, so we don't need discussions= =20 > of IRC behavior on hackers either. If we took it up in -hackers every=20 > time somebody dissed somebody else in IRC, we'd never have the=20 > bandwidth to discuss anything else. >=20 > Filters? Please? Enough is enough. >=20 Sorry for making yet another reply. I'll be short. I just want to make a small suggestion since you mentioned the word=20 postmaster. Why not put a filter on the following domains: hotmail.com msn.com yahoo.* + all other "get a free webmail account" services on the net that we know= of. Then send a mail to all the members using mail addresses underneath these= =20 domains to re-subscribe with a mail address of another domain. This makes it at least a little harder for anonymous trolls to send all t= his=20 crap to the mailing list all the time. Arvinn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 7:13:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 335C037B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns1.inter7.com (ns1.inter7.com [209.218.8.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7767343E4A for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:13:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nitedog@silly.pikachu.org) Received: (qmail 12273 invoked by uid 507); 20 Aug 2002 14:13:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nitebox) (12.245.3.129) by evanston.inter7.com with SMTP; 20 Aug 2002 14:13:21 -0000 Message-ID: <001301c24853$b96e6360$0301a8c0@nitebox> From: "Randall Hamilton" To: "Kris Kirby" , "Mosko Bilekic" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Why did FreeBSD fail? Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:13:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-eFilter: eFilter/EPS (http://www.inter7.com/efilter) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Oooh. Somebody's *cranky*. Maybe he should take a little nap? > > Step out from behind the curtain, unless you're there because you've > already been put there. > > Hrm. I'm wondering if this might be Theo.... I've heard he's a volatile > creature. don't bother pointing fingers...just ignore and don't feed the troll's. like packet kiddies, they crave attention. give them a starvation diet. -nitedog To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 7:38:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F41737B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailc.telia.com (mailc.telia.com [194.22.190.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D06C43E65 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:38:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (jenny.twenty4help.se [62.20.102.59]) by mailc.telia.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g7KEcjsR011022; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:38:45 +0200 (CEST) X-Original-Recipient: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3D6254E0.4010903@401.cx> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:40:32 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0rc2) Gecko/20020512 Netscape/7.0b1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kirby Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did FreeBSD fail? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby wrote: > On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, [iso-8859-1] Mosko Bilekic wrote: > >>Gentlemen, it's time to explain why FreeBSD is such a >>failure. > > > Oooh. Somebody's *cranky*. Maybe he should take a little nap? > > Step out from behind the curtain, unless you're there because you've > already been put there. > > Hrm. I'm wondering if this might be Theo.... I've heard he's a volatile > creature. > I doubt it. Theo usually does not hide his opinion, but Ive never seen him hide behind fake identities. He has attitude, but he is not afraid to stand up for what he says. -- R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 8:12:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D696B37B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from horkos.telenet-ops.be (horkos.telenet-ops.be [195.130.132.45]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BCC643E6A for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:12:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from philip@paeps.cx) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by horkos.telenet-ops.be (Postfix) with SMTP id B299E84020; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:12:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fortuna.home.paeps.cx (D5768732.kabel.telenet.be [213.118.135.50]) by horkos.telenet-ops.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352068406D; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:12:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from juno.home.paeps.cx (juno [10.0.0.2]) by fortuna.home.paeps.cx (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF5E771; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:12:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: by juno.home.paeps.cx (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9A783875; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:12:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:12:47 +0200 From: Philip Paeps To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What mail client for a computer newbie? Message-ID: <20020820151247.GP22500@juno.paeps.cx> Mail-Followup-To: Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <3D617400.1294.5D259729@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D617400.1294.5D259729@localhost> X-Message-Flag: Get yourself a real mail client. Try Mutt: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-08-20 04:42:43, Dan Langille wrote: > What mail client would you recommend for my mother? My mother's been using Evolution for a while, and I haven't heard any complaints, and she appears to be communicating happily with the rest of the world. > To be fair, she's been using pine under FreeBSD for about a year now. Now > that she's about to get a new computer, it's time to upgrade to a GUI (we're > going with KDE). Well, if she's used to Pine, why not let her stick to Pine? Maybe install a 'light' GUI (WindowMaker's good) and run Pine in a terminal (like Eterm, Aterm, Xterm, whateverterm). > She has the concepts of email now. But I want a simple interface. Try to > think of this from a computer newbie point of view, not an X or FreeBSD > point of view. I fear that KDE might be a bit too complex. All these funny bells and whistles all over the shop. Might it not be better to install a 'light' window manager instead? I doubt she'll be needing all the 'advanced' features of KDE. Just a way to start the mailclient, the wordprocessor, the spreadsheet, etc. - Philip -- Philip Paeps philip@paeps.cx http://www.paeps.cx/ +32 486 114 720 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 11:24:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A3337B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rhadamanth.submonkey.net (pc1-cdif1-6-cust12.cdf.cable.ntl.com [80.3.230.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C36F643E3B for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:24:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by rhadamanth.submonkey.net with local (Exim 3.36 #1) id 17hDgT-0001DN-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:24:53 +0100 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:24:53 +0100 From: Ceri Davies To: "David P. Reese Jr." Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: What happened to xmach? Message-ID: <20020820182453.GB4223@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , "David P. Reese Jr." , chat@FreeBSD.org References: <20020820091517.GA8330@tombstone.gomerbud.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020820091517.GA8330@tombstone.gomerbud.com> X-message-flag: All your linuxconf-configured redhat are belong to us. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 02:15:17AM -0700, David P. Reese Jr. wrote: > Did the xMach project fall off of the face of the earth? Host lookups for > www.xmach.org return nill. Their project on freshmeat seems to have > disapeared. Whois says that they have paid for the domain through April 2003. > What gives? > > I was just about to build a spare box to break with -CURRENT. I was planning > on breaking it with xMach too. Drop Juli Mallett (jmallett@FreeBSD.org) a mail and ask her. Ceri -- you can't see when light's so strong you can't see when light is gone To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 12:52:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CAB037B400; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3456E43E72; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:52:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.5/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g7KJqCdc084797; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:52:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.5/8.12.4/Submit) id g7KJqCrT084796; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:52:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:52:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200208201952.g7KJqCrT084796@apollo.backplane.com> To: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mosko=20Bilekic?= Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did FreeBSD fail? References: <20020820113908.90626.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org :Matt Dillon, I had a lot of respect for you until you :replied to the Pythonstein troll, you SUCK This is almost as good as IRC, but I often find myself wishing for a return to the days before Jesus Monroy mellowed out. I mean, I *DO* have a reputation as a hothead to maintain now don't I! But the trolls these days are getting so bad I just can't do it with a straight face any more. I've been Ruined! :Alfred Perlstein, drunktard Careful, Alfred is (H'cup) bigger then you are! And he has Mr. A. Skul on his side. 50 pounds of titanium and lead opens a lot of doors. HiC'p. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 13:12: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E4F37B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smyk.apk.net (smyk.apk.net [207.54.158.17]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4105F43E3B for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:11:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ipswitch@apk.net) X-IP-Test: 207.54.133.252 Received: from [10.1.3.2] (viruswall.apk.net [207.54.133.252]) by smyk.apk.net (8.12.2/8.12.2/apk.20020423+rchk2.1+bspm2.2) with ESMTP id g7KKBvOF009610 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:11:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:08:39 -0400 From: Stuart Krivis To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did FreeBSD fail? Message-ID: <89704062.1029859719@[10.1.3.2]> In-Reply-To: <200208201952.g7KJqCrT084796@apollo.backplane.com> References: <20020820113908.90626.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> <200208201952.g7KJqCrT084796@apollo.backplane.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.0b1 (Win32) X-Beer: More MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Tuesday, August 20, 2002 12:52 PM -0700 Matthew Dillon wrote: > But the trolls these days are getting so bad I just can't do it with > a straight face any more. I've been Ruined! > Yes, it's just hard to find a decent troll these days. They just don't make 'em like they used to. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 14: 1:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A396937B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7150B43E6E for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:01:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from george.reid@oriel.oxford.ac.uk) Received: from sobek.lan ([80.6.30.227]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020820210117.CEUT23840.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@sobek.lan> for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:01:17 +0100 Received: (from greid@localhost) by sobek.lan (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g7KL1KS03348 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:01:20 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from george.reid@oriel.oxford.ac.uk) X-Authentication-Warning: sobek.lan: greid set sender to george.reid@oriel.oxford.ac.uk using -f Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:01:19 +0100 From: George Reid To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Why did evolution fail? (Was: Re: Why did FreeBSD fail?) Message-ID: <20020820220119.A3231@FreeBSD.org> References: <20020820113908.90626.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> <200208201952.g7KJqCrT084796@apollo.backplane.com> <89704062.1029859719@[10.1.3.2]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <89704062.1029859719@[10.1.3.2]>; from ipswitch@apk.net on Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 04:08:39PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 04:08:39PM -0400, Stuart Krivis wrote: > Yes, it's just hard to find a decent troll these days. They just don't make > 'em like they used to. Indeed. All of the trolls that I've seen this year appear to be suffering from some kind of textual dysentery combined with a truly amazing ability to regurgitate parrot-fashion things that they've read elsewhere. I am sure that there are those less cynical than I who would view these as _incredible_ intellectual feats of memory and wit. Unfortunately, the recent trolls have all the intellectual content of a mentally retarded sheep[0] with a $500/day heroin habit. How nice it must be to life in a world so simple that you can obtain self-gratification simply by masturbating your own ego when people read and are incensed by your posts. Perhaps you could inform the list how many brain cells need to be killed to achieve this blissful state of ignorance? I am positive that there are many intelligent people on the list (along with myself) who would love to know just how you crawled out of the Clue Sea and beached yourself. As for the calls from various people for the troll to reveal himself or herself, you probably haven't considered this may be an extremely difficult course of action for the troll. Self-awareness is usually only a feature of evolved life forms. As an aside, if you wish to "credit" me in your next little diatribe, I suggest "George 'faggot' Reid" or "George 'arrogant wanker' Reid". Hopefully this will save you those extra few minutes in digging around on Google and perhaps the saving this will afford you in energy expended by both of your synapsing neurons will help you to remember to breathe for a little longer. Ooops. Did I just killfile this thread? -- George C A Reid WWW: http://people.FreeBSD.org/~greid/ Mob: (07740) 197460 FreeBSD Committer/Developer greid@FreeBSD.org Oriel College, Oxford University george.reid@oriel.ox.ac.uk [0] - Apologies to Jordan. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 16:13:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A4B37B401 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garrincha.netbank.com.br (garrincha.netbank.com.br [200.203.199.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5911643E42 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:13:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from riel@conectiva.com.br) Received: (qmail 31299 invoked by uid 84); 20 Aug 2002 23:14:22 -0000 Received: from riel@conectiva.com.br by garrincha.netbank.com.br with qmail-scanner-1.01 (. Clean. Processed in 2.15428 secs); 20 Aug 2002 23:14:22 -0000 Received: from 2-210.ctame701-1.telepar.net.br (kpdkei@200.193.160.210) by garrincha.netbank.com.br with SMTP; 20 Aug 2002 23:14:20 -0000 Received: from localhost ([IPv6:::ffff:127.0.0.1]:46244 "EHLO localhost") by imladris.surriel.com with ESMTP id ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:12:54 -0300 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:12:39 -0300 (BRT) From: Rik van Riel X-X-Sender: riel@imladris.surriel.com To: =?iso-8859-1?q?Mosko=20Bilekic?= Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, Subject: Re: Why did FreeBSD fail? In-Reply-To: <20020820113908.90626.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: X-spambait: aardvark@kernelnewbies.org X-spammeplease: aardvark@nl.linux.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Mosko Bilekic wrote: > Gentlemen, it's time to explain why FreeBSD is such a > failure. Maybe it's because the developers prefer to spend their time and energy on gossip instead of technical issues ? No wait, those aren't the developers, can't be. Please tell me those aren't really the developers... (now, can we end the trolling and talk techical stuff again? maybe I'll even join #bsdcode again ;)) cheers, Rik -- Bravely reimplemented by the knights who say "NIH". http://www.surriel.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 16:40: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90A1937B400; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.mail.vanderbilt.edu (smtp3.mail.Vanderbilt.Edu [129.59.1.77]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1C8B43E42; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:39:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bandix@geekpunk.net) Received: from smtp3.mail.vanderbilt.edu (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.mail.vanderbilt.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6/VU-3.6C+d3.6) with ESMTP id g7KNdH427895; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:39:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imap3.mail.vanderbilt.edu (imap3.mail.Vanderbilt.Edu [129.59.1.136]) by smtp3.mail.vanderbilt.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6/VU-3.6B+d3.6) with ESMTP id g7KNdGU27885; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:39:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([160.129.138.54]) by imap3.mail.vanderbilt.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6/VU-3.6A+d3.6) with ESMTP id g7KNdFY19388; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:39:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:39:17 -0500 (CDT) From: "Brandon D. Valentine" X-X-Sender: bandix@taran To: Rik van Riel Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why did FreeBSD fail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020820181648.S276-100000@taran> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Redirected to -chat from -hackers; I'm not on -chat, keep me Cc'd. ] On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Rik van Riel wrote: > On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Mosko Bilekic wrote: > > > Gentlemen, it's time to explain why FreeBSD is such a > > failure. > > Maybe it's because the developers prefer to spend their > time and energy on gossip instead of technical issues ? > > No wait, those aren't the developers, can't be. Please > tell me those aren't really the developers... Those most certainly aren't the developers. I will go so far to say with great confidence that the people trolling the list have never written a decently impressive piece of code in their lives. The Internet was once a place where hackers could go about their business without being troubled by such lameness. Unfortunately, the rest of society has jumped onto the Internet and brought their baggage with them. Occasionally one of these non-hackers finds their way into a technical forum and is disappointed when they're made to feel excluded or inferior. They come to the Internet with the misguided notion that they are somehow entitled to some sort of respect or status -- either because they consider themselves of some import in the real world or because they feel that the Internet is their opportunity to grab the piece of the popularity pie that has been denied to them thusfar in life. Most of them experience a rude awakening when the technical forum doesn't even stop to notice them and they become very bitter and vindictive about this perceived "mistreatment". They go so far as to engage in activities such as trolling which drain the community's most valuable resources: it's communication channels and the time of the hackers therein. Behavior of this sort has become the unfortunate and quite obnoxious norm. What this influx of laypeople fail to realize is that the hackers who built and maintain this network built it as a tool for their own ends and have little time to care about the needs of the many. If a non-technical person needs help the prevailing attitude is and should be that that individual can pay for his support. This sense of entitlement to attention, respect or status among non-hackers is a byproduct of a societal emphasis on political correctness and subjectivism. It's annoying. VERY annoying. The engineering community is, has always been, and always should and shall be a meritocracy. There can be no other way. To the trolls I say this: go ahead and feel insulted that nobody paid attention to you. Go ahead and pout. Feel excluded if you must. Nobody excluded you on the basis of who you are. Nobody excluded you because you weren't on the guest list or someone didn't like you. You were excluded for the plain and simple reason that you have yet to demonstrate your worth. You're not entitled to anything. If you want to be part of the club, write some code. We're not elitists, we're practical. Our time is limited. We won't pay attention to you until you bother to demonstrate that you are worth our time. Trolling a mailing list might make you feel good, but nobody cares. Most of us hit delete and kept going without giving it a second thought. If you want people to pay attention to you, write good code or shut the fuck up. Brandon D. Valentine -- http://www.geekpunk.net bandix@geekpunk.net ++[>++++++<-]>[<++++++>-]<.>++++[>+++++<-]>[<+++++>-]<+.+++++++..++ +.>>+++++[<++++++>-]<++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 17: 4:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CABC37B400 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns1.khmere.com (sdsl-66-80-3-42.dsl.sca.megapath.net [66.80.3.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D74E43E65 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:04:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nathan@khmere.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ns1.khmere.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7L03df06504; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:03:39 -0700 (PDT) From: X-X-Sender: Reply-To: To: "Brandon D. Valentine" Cc: Rik van Riel , Subject: Re: Why did FreeBSD fail? In-Reply-To: <20020820181648.S276-100000@taran> Message-ID: <20020820164431.D6449-100000@ns1.khmere.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org All I can say is wow, I have been user of FreeBSD for over 6 years. I have also been monitoring these lists for almost that same amount of time. I very seldom post, but these past few months have really made me upset and dissapointed. I have never seen such abuse by trolls. I have to agree with Mr. Valentine and also would like to say to the hackers: "please keep on working". I am positive that their are many people out thier who appreciate the valuable time and effort that the hackers put into FreeBSD. I know I do ! Why even have a discussion about these trolls and waste time. Just ignore them and they will go away, maybe they will go and bother the linux people :-) ! FreeBSD is not dead, none of the *BSD's are, and they are *not* failures ! -nb On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Brandon D. Valentine wrote: >[ Redirected to -chat from -hackers; I'm not on -chat, keep me Cc'd. ] > >On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Rik van Riel wrote: > >> On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Mosko Bilekic wrote: >> >> > Gentlemen, it's time to explain why FreeBSD is such a >> > failure. >> >> Maybe it's because the developers prefer to spend their >> time and energy on gossip instead of technical issues ? >> >> No wait, those aren't the developers, can't be. Please >> tell me those aren't really the developers... > >Those most certainly aren't the developers. I will go so far to say >with great confidence that the people trolling the list have never >written a decently impressive piece of code in their lives. > >The Internet was once a place where hackers could go about their >business without being troubled by such lameness. Unfortunately, the >rest of society has jumped onto the Internet and brought their baggage >with them. Occasionally one of these non-hackers finds their way into a >technical forum and is disappointed when they're made to feel excluded >or inferior. They come to the Internet with the misguided notion that >they are somehow entitled to some sort of respect or status -- either >because they consider themselves of some import in the real world or >because they feel that the Internet is their opportunity to grab the >piece of the popularity pie that has been denied to them thusfar in >life. Most of them experience a rude awakening when the technical forum >doesn't even stop to notice them and they become very bitter and >vindictive about this perceived "mistreatment". They go so far as to >engage in activities such as trolling which drain the community's most >valuable resources: it's communication channels and the time of the >hackers therein. > >Behavior of this sort has become the unfortunate and quite obnoxious >norm. What this influx of laypeople fail to realize is that the hackers >who built and maintain this network built it as a tool for their own >ends and have little time to care about the needs of the many. If a >non-technical person needs help the prevailing attitude is and should be >that that individual can pay for his support. This sense of entitlement >to attention, respect or status among non-hackers is a byproduct of a >societal emphasis on political correctness and subjectivism. It's >annoying. VERY annoying. The engineering community is, has always >been, and always should and shall be a meritocracy. There can be no >other way. > >To the trolls I say this: go ahead and feel insulted that nobody paid >attention to you. Go ahead and pout. Feel excluded if you must. >Nobody excluded you on the basis of who you are. Nobody excluded you >because you weren't on the guest list or someone didn't like you. You >were excluded for the plain and simple reason that you have yet to >demonstrate your worth. You're not entitled to anything. If you want >to be part of the club, write some code. We're not elitists, we're >practical. Our time is limited. We won't pay attention to you until >you bother to demonstrate that you are worth our time. Trolling a >mailing list might make you feel good, but nobody cares. Most of us hit >delete and kept going without giving it a second thought. If you want >people to pay attention to you, write good code or shut the fuck up. > >Brandon D. Valentine >-- >http://www.geekpunk.net bandix@geekpunk.net >++[>++++++<-]>[<++++++>-]<.>++++[>+++++<-]>[<+++++>-]<+.+++++++..++ >+.>>+++++[<++++++>-]<++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+. > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > ************************************************************************************ "The captain said weigh anchor,I said why should I ? it says 1/2 ton right there " - Benny Hill ************************************************************************************* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 19:21: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 931) id 560DF37B400; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:21:00 -0700 From: Juli Mallett To: Mosko Bilekic Cc: crap@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Why did FreeBSD fail? Message-ID: <20020820192100.A6137@FreeBSD.org> References: <20020820113908.90626.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020820113908.90626.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com>; from mbilekic@yahoo.co.uk on Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 12:39:08PM +0100 Organisation: The FreeBSD Project X-Alternate-Addresses: , , , , X-Towel: Yes X-LiveJournal: flata, jmallett X-Negacore: Yes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * De: Mosko Bilekic [ Data: 2002-08-20 ] [ Subjecte: Why did FreeBSD fail? ] > Juli Mallett, sorry for the typo :) No problem, and thanks. Can I please have a little more of the un-thought-out personal attacks, please? I missed not being mocked for my uhm "lifestyle" this time. I mean, come on! It's obviously something I'm ashamed of, what with introducing my girlfriend to the channel and all... > David O'Brien, you're a great hacker, but a real > asshole This is an opinion that's been voiced before, but it's at least half-way inaccurate. And I respect David's skillz0r, so... > Alfred Perlstein, drunktard Alfred's one of the brighter folks involved with the project, and he can actually be a nice guy. If you look at #bsdcode with any intention other than trying to stir up a mess, you'll note that there is a sort of "siblings" atmosphere. We all joke around and stuff, but deep down... Thanks for the laughs champ. If you're going to keep this shit up at least give me a harder time, I suggest pointing out the number of times I've broken things or made meaningless commits... Start attacking on a professional level. It's much more fun. jules. -- Juli Mallett | FreeBSD: The Power To Serve Will break world for fulltime employment. | finger jmallett@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 19:51: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971D937B400; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta08.mail.mel.aone.net.au (mta08.mail.au.uu.net [203.2.192.89]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 432B843E4A; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:50:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rbyrnes@ozemail.com.au) Received: from ausyddtp0050.ozemail.com.au ([203.166.67.234]) by mta08.mail.mel.aone.net.au with ESMTP id <20020821025054.GGIN21779.mta08.mail.mel.aone.net.au@ausyddtp0050.ozemail.com.au>; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:50:54 +1000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821125414.01db6a40@pop.ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: rbyrnes@pop.ozemail.com.au X-Mailer: I wish it was Linux Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:55:12 +1000 To: "David P. Reese Jr." From: Rob B Subject: Re: What happened to xmach? Cc: chat@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20020820112932.GA9239@tombstone.gomerbud.com> References: <3D62253B.3070800@earthlink.net> <20020820091517.GA8330@tombstone.gomerbud.com> <3D62253B.3070800@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:29 20/08/2002 -0700, David P. Reese Jr. sent this up the stick: >On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 07:17:15AM -0400, Lawrence Sica wrote: > > David P. Reese Jr. wrote: > > >Did the xMach project fall off of the face of the earth? Host lookups for > > >www.xmach.org return nill. Their project on freshmeat seems to have > > >disapeared. Whois says that they have paid for the domain through April > > >2003. > > >What gives? > > > > I get nada, nothing from querying the dns servers listed as > > authoritative. Maybe they forgot to pay their bills? *shrug* > > >Would freshmeat nuke a project because it can't resolve the host providing >the homepage and tarballs? It's still on advogato - http://www.advogato.org/proj/xMach/ - but there's not much there. Rob -- Feel good? Don't worry; you'll get over it! This is random quote 456 of a collection of 1254 [15200.8 km (8207.8 mi), 262.8 deg](Apparent) Rennerian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 20 20:19:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 646F937B401 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C17C43E4A for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:19:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ryans@gamersimpact.com) Received: from [24.207.158.217] (helo=[192.168.1.101]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17hM19-00062m-00; Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:18:47 -0700 Subject: Re: Why did FreeBSD fail? From: Ryan Sommers To: nathan@khmere.com Cc: "Brandon D. Valentine" , Rik van Riel , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20020820164431.D6449-100000@ns1.khmere.com> References: <20020820164431.D6449-100000@ns1.khmere.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 Date: 20 Aug 2002 22:18:59 -0500 Message-Id: <1029899941.906.4.camel@lobo> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2002-08-20 at 19:03, nathan@khmere.com wrote: > > All I can say is wow, > > I have to agree with Mr. Valentine and > also would like to say to the hackers: "please keep on working". I am > positive that their are many people out thier who appreciate the valuable > time and effort that the hackers put into FreeBSD. I know I do ! Here, here. I came to FreeBSD after using Linux for years because of the trolls that started to infest the Linux community. I've now found a new niche that I chose to call home. I may not be all that outspoken but I too have been watching and soaking up as much as I can. > > Why even have a discussion about these trolls and waste time. Just ignore > them and they will go away, maybe they will go and bother the linux people > :-) ! > > FreeBSD is not dead, none of the *BSD's are, and they are *not* failures ! > > -nb > I can't see something as successful as the FreeBSD project dieing because of any the events that have transpired recently. Like anything it will have it's ups and downs. Those that stick it out when we are in the valley will be rewarded when we reach the next peak. -- Ryan "leadZERO" Sommers Gamer's Impact President ryans@gamersimpact.com ICQ: 1019590 AIM/MSN: leadZERO -= http://www.gamersimpact.com =- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 7: 1:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4173137B400 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 07:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (mail19a.dulles19-verio.com [161.58.134.133]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6E8EC43E4A for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 07:01:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rob@pythonemproject.com) Received: from www.pythonemproject.com (198.104.176.109) by mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (RS ver 1.0.63s) with SMTP id 0187219492 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:59:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3D639CFF.FF5768D6@pythonemproject.com> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 07:00:31 -0700 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Alfred Pythonstein T-shirts? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Its to bad this name is so close to a real person and good hacker. It would make a great Python mascot. I'd pay $20 or $30 for an Alfred Pythonstein T-shirt :) Maybe we can get Alfred's permissin to make one. We'd need some good artwork. Sincerely, Rob (Pythonstein) -- ----------------------------- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 8: 6: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D62D837B401 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spqr.osg.gov.bc.ca (spqr.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2636F43E70 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca) Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (passer.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.110.29]) by spqr.osg.gov.bc.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C93239EF1F; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 08:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cwsys.cwsent.com (cwsys2 [10.1.2.1]) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g7LF5tAq023285; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 08:05:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cy@cwsent.com) Received: from cwsys (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cwsys.cwsent.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g7LF5s5M061381; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 08:05:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cy@cwsys.cwsent.com) Message-Id: <200208211505.g7LF5s5M061381@cwsys.cwsent.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - CITS Open Systems Group X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com To: "Brandon D. Valentine" Cc: Rik van Riel , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did FreeBSD fail? In-Reply-To: Message from "Brandon D. Valentine" of "Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:39:17 CDT." <20020820181648.S276-100000@taran> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 08:05:54 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <20020820181648.S276-100000@taran>, "Brandon D. Valentine" writes: > [ Redirected to -chat from -hackers; I'm not on -chat, keep me Cc'd. ] > > On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Rik van Riel wrote: > > > On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Mosko Bilekic wrote: > > > > > Gentlemen, it's time to explain why FreeBSD is such a > > > failure. > > > > Maybe it's because the developers prefer to spend their > > time and energy on gossip instead of technical issues ? > > > > No wait, those aren't the developers, can't be. Please > > tell me those aren't really the developers... > > Those most certainly aren't the developers. I will go so far to say > with great confidence that the people trolling the list have never > written a decently impressive piece of code in their lives. That is usually the case with everything. Film critics are are those who failed to get any acting jobs. Cooking critics cannot cook. Sports commentators and critics hare rarely played a game or for that matter even set foot in a gym. Many back seat drivers do not have drivers licenses and code critics have rarely written a piece of code. IME, critics are usually wanabes who haven't amounted to much in life. As there is nothing positive in "their sad and sorry excuses for lives" (to take a quote from Tom Leykis) hence all they can contribute is negativity. If the critics want to make this a better planet, they should contribute to society in some way, e.g. an OS project, some charity, or for that matter at the local food bank. Every positive contribution made makes this a happier planet to live on. Unfortunately this world is in the state it is because of critics who fail to lift a finger to help make a difference or when they do something it's negative and destructive. In short, ignore them. They're unhappy and they deserve it. -- Cheers, Phone: 250-387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: 250-387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/Alpha Team Email: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, CITS Ministry of Management Services Province of BC FreeBSD UNIX: cy@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 9:22:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC29E37B400; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9999543E4A; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:22:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.org) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a236.otenet.gr [212.205.215.236]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g7LGMFkH000022; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:22:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g7LEvf65093830; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:57:41 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g7LEvf17093826; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:57:41 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.org) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:57:41 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Rob Cc: alfred@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Alfred Pythonstein T-shirts? Message-ID: <20020821145740.GN81256@hades.hell.gr> References: <3D639CFF.FF5768D6@pythonemproject.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D639CFF.FF5768D6@pythonemproject.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: C1EB 0653 DB8B A557 3829 00F9 D60F 941A 3186 03B6 X-Phone: +30-944-116520 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-08-21 07:00 +0000, Rob wrote: > Its to bad this name is so close to a real person and good hacker. It > would make a great Python mascot. I'd pay $20 or $30 for an Alfred > Pythonstein T-shirt :) Maybe we can get Alfred's permissin to make > one. We'd need some good artwork. A python snake with the head of Alfred, curling around a tree and offering an apple to the DaemonNews.org chiq that I've seen around saying "FreeBSD: Take a byte" ? /me ducks and runs laughing madly :))) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 9:40:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 514DC37B400; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC1E43E70; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:40:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id B20F4AE163; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:40:42 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Rob , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Alfred Pythonstein T-shirts? Message-ID: <20020821164042.GS75574@elvis.mu.org> References: <3D639CFF.FF5768D6@pythonemproject.com> <20020821145740.GN81256@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020821145740.GN81256@hades.hell.gr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Giorgos Keramidas [020821 09:22] wrote: > On 2002-08-21 07:00 +0000, Rob wrote: > > Its to bad this name is so close to a real person and good hacker. It > > would make a great Python mascot. I'd pay $20 or $30 for an Alfred > > Pythonstein T-shirt :) Maybe we can get Alfred's permissin to make > > one. We'd need some good artwork. > > A python snake with the head of Alfred, curling around a tree and > offering an apple to the DaemonNews.org chiq that I've seen around > saying "FreeBSD: Take a byte" ? > > /me ducks and runs laughing madly :))) I'm all for it. :) -- -Alfred Perlstein [alfred@freebsd.org] [#bsdcode/efnet/irc.prison.net] 'Instead of asking why a piece of software is using "1970s technology," start asking why software is ignoring 30 years of accumulated wisdom.' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 10:45: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E30137B44B; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE6D243E81; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:44:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@poohfan.com) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BA6A1CDC32; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 17A7A3954; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:44:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Dillon To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: I can't believe this! Reply-To: dillon@poohfan.com X-Originating-Ip: [65.25.96.4] Message-Id: <20020821174426.17A7A3954@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I mean, WTF? 14 people answered what was nothing but a *blatant* troll! Come on, even Rick 'shittiest VM subsystem' van Riel answered! What can I say, pathetic, simply pathetic. No wonder FreeBSD is dead. I'm just talking on behalf of myself and my 3 friends, Bavid O'Drien, Piten Handya, and Muli Jallett, but I'm I speak for all of us when I say: FreeBSD is dying! FWIW, some people have privately e-mailed me asking : Why is Hiten an IMBECILE? Here's the answer.. http://www.linuxforlesbians.org/~pjs/hiten-idiot.txt Hiten is an idiot, discuss Yours faithfully, Matthew _____________________________________________________________ Get your own free Mickeyfan.com email address!! DisneySites!! - http://www.disneysites.com/webmail/poohfan _____________________________________________________________ Promote your group and strengthen ties to your members with email@yourgroup.org by Everyone.net http://www.everyone.net/?btn=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 10:56:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 931) id 965A237B401; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:56:22 -0700 From: Juli Mallett To: Rob B Cc: "David P. Reese Jr." , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What happened to xmach? Message-ID: <20020821105622.A73801@FreeBSD.org> References: <3D62253B.3070800@earthlink.net> <20020820091517.GA8330@tombstone.gomerbud.com> <3D62253B.3070800@earthlink.net> <20020820112932.GA9239@tombstone.gomerbud.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020821125414.01db6a40@pop.ozemail.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821125414.01db6a40@pop.ozemail.com.au>; from rbyrnes@ozemail.com.au on Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 12:55:12PM +1000 Organisation: The FreeBSD Project X-Alternate-Addresses: , , , , X-Towel: Yes X-LiveJournal: flata, jmallett X-Negacore: Yes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * De: Rob B [ Data: 2002-08-20 ] [ Subjecte: Re: What happened to xmach? ] > It's still on advogato - http://www.advogato.org/proj/xMach/ - but there's > not much there. I'm not on -chat, so I missed this thread, but the original asker dropped me a line. The short of it is that the CVS box is currently playing doorstop in my girlfriend and I's bedroom, and that we need to get a power cable for it, and then I'll start doing the whole development thing again, but I cannot give outside access to it, though I might post tarballs or something, to somewhere. In time I hope to colo this, or a more colo-able box, and bring things back to where they once were. I'm debating leaving the CVS commit mail list running and adding people who ask, and such. We'll see. Thanks, juli. -- Juli Mallett | FreeBSD: The Power To Serve Will break world for fulltime employment. | finger jmallett@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 11:13:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16B437B400; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genius.tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2352043E9C; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:13:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@genius.tao.org.uk) Received: by genius.tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 2A3B042CA; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:13:16 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:13:16 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Matt Dillon Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I can't believe this! Message-ID: <20020821181316.GA1886@genius.tao.org.uk> References: <20020821174426.17A7A3954@sitemail.everyone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020821174426.17A7A3954@sitemail.everyone.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 10:44:25AM -0700, Matt Dillon wrote: > I mean, WTF? 14 people answered what was nothing but a *blatant* troll! C= ome on, even Rick 'shittiest VM subsystem' van Riel answered! What can I sa= y, pathetic, simply pathetic. No wonder FreeBSD is dead. I'm just talking o= n behalf of myself and my 3 friends, Bavid O'Drien, Piten Handya, and Muli = Jallett, but I'm I speak for all of us when I say: FreeBSD is dying! >=20 > FWIW, some people have privately e-mailed me asking : Why is Hiten an IMB= ECILE? >=20 > Here's the answer.. http://www.linuxforlesbians.org/~pjs/hiten-idiot.txt >=20 > Hiten is an idiot, discuss >=20 He's a 15 year old kid, a bit shy on life experience. What do you expect? Grow up man! Joe --=20 "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Albert Einstein, 1921 --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAj1j2DsACgkQXVIcjOaxUBYKGgCgq7+vwUzuIxHqECsB3iSL5Lrx gNYAoOaWxnOYXoq9M1gr4c3EuzlpJuYx =f22m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 11:16:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A10137B400; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114EE43E6E; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:16:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7LIGeY06600; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:16:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g7LIGej13171; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:16:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7LIGbo13164; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:16:37 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3D63D905.1030506@centtech.com> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:16:37 -0500 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020508 Netscape6/6.2.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Matt Dillon , hackers@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I can't believe this! References: <20020821174426.17A7A3954@sitemail.everyone.net> <20020821181316.GA1886@genius.tao.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Would the real Matt Dillon please stand up? I'm bored of this loser troll who spams the list. No creativity. Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 10:44:25AM -0700, Matt Dillon wrote: > >>I mean, WTF? 14 people answered what was nothing but a *blatant* troll! Come on, even Rick 'shittiest VM subsystem' van Riel answered! What can I say, pathetic, simply pathetic. No wonder FreeBSD is dead. I'm just talking on behalf of myself and my 3 friends, Bavid O'Drien, Piten Handya, and Muli Jallett, but I'm I speak for all of us when I say: FreeBSD is dying! >> >>FWIW, some people have privately e-mailed me asking : Why is Hiten an IMBECILE? >> >>Here's the answer.. http://www.linuxforlesbians.org/~pjs/hiten-idiot.txt >> >>Hiten is an idiot, discuss >> >> > > He's a 15 year old kid, a bit shy on life experience. > What do you expect? > Grow up man! > > Joe > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology The moon may be smaller than Earth, but it's further away. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 11:28:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE4E037B4AA; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.freebsdhackers.net (loaks-171-199.goldengate.net [216.250.171.199]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55C9243E72; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:28:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shane@freebsdhackers.net) Received: by mail.freebsdhackers.net (Postfix, from userid 1099) id C48CF156; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:26:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.freebsdhackers.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2542155; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:26:55 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:26:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Shane Kinney To: Eric Anderson Cc: Josef Karthauser , Matt Dillon , , Subject: Re: I can't believe this! In-Reply-To: <3D63D905.1030506@centtech.com> Message-ID: <20020821132555.B59196-100000@sigma.freebsdhackers.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ya. I agree, they just don't make trolls like they used to. "Don't forget to recompile that cheeseburger." On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, Eric Anderson wrote: > Would the real Matt Dillon please stand up? > > I'm bored of this loser troll who spams the list. No creativity. > > > > Josef Karthauser wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 10:44:25AM -0700, Matt Dillon wrote: > > > >>I mean, WTF? 14 people answered what was nothing but a *blatant* troll! Come on, even Rick 'shittiest VM subsystem' van Riel answered! What can I say, pathetic, simply pathetic. No wonder FreeBSD is dead. I'm just talking on behalf of myself and my 3 friends, Bavid O'Drien, Piten Handya, and Muli Jallett, but I'm I speak for all of us when I say: FreeBSD is dying! > >> > >>FWIW, some people have privately e-mailed me asking : Why is Hiten an IMBECILE? > >> > >>Here's the answer.. http://www.linuxforlesbians.org/~pjs/hiten-idiot.txt > >> > >>Hiten is an idiot, discuss > >> > >> > > > > He's a 15 year old kid, a bit shy on life experience. > > What do you expect? > > Grow up man! > > > > Joe > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology > The moon may be smaller than Earth, but it's further away. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9Y9tvtGSLUf7ussURAjo7AJ9BbM6uwd+ZVKszb2u5mhQ7zOrpqQCfU23E ccgTeCm/wB2fE0ZBM8ZwbI4= =2wkp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 15:16:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C3837B400; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55F4C43E6A; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:16:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.org) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a153.otenet.gr [212.205.215.153]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g7LMG6kH000121; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 01:16:08 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g7LMFDuU001103; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 01:16:03 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g7LLnEac000816; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:49:14 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@FreeBSD.org) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:49:13 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Matt Dillon , hackers@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: I can't believe this! Message-ID: <20020821214913.GA753@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020821174426.17A7A3954@sitemail.everyone.net> <20020821181316.GA1886@genius.tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020821181316.GA1886@genius.tao.org.uk> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-08-21 19:13 +0000, Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 10:44:25AM -0700, Matt Dillon wrote: > > Here's the answer.. http://www.linuxforlesbians.org/~pjs/hiten-idiot.txt > > Hiten is an idiot, discuss > > He's a 15 year old kid, a bit shy on life experience. > What do you expect? > Grow up man! Add to this the fact that he's one of the 15-yr olds I have actually *enjoyed* talking & working with, and then the Trolls will hopefully "See the Light(TM)" and turn to stone. We all know that light can turn any average Troll to a bunch of slow, boring rocks :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 17:27: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEA9637B400; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C0C443E42; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:27:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0087.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.87] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17hfoO-00025b-00; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:26:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3D642F94.B153DB1D@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:25:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Josef Karthauser , Matt Dillon , hackers@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: I can't believe this! References: <20020821174426.17A7A3954@sitemail.everyone.net> <20020821181316.GA1886@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020821214913.GA753@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2002-08-21 19:13 +0000, Josef Karthauser wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 10:44:25AM -0700, Matt Dillon wrote: > > > Here's the answer.. http://www.linuxforlesbians.org/~pjs/hiten-idiot.txt > > > Hiten is an idiot, discuss > > > > He's a 15 year old kid, a bit shy on life experience. > > What do you expect? > > Grow up man! > > Add to this the fact that he's one of the 15-yr olds I have actually > *enjoyed* talking & working with, and then the Trolls will hopefully > "See the Light(TM)" and turn to stone. We all know that light can > turn any average Troll to a bunch of slow, boring rocks :) I have never had a problem with Hiten; he asks intelligent questions, and appears to understand the answers (e.g. his recent question about System V Message Queues and the overlay structure definition for getting the message type out without hitting your head on architecture dependent structure packing). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 19:37:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1454F37B400; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BECF743E6A; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:37:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from baka@elvis.mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1921) id 8A831AE1C1; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:37:14 -0700 From: Jon Mini To: Terry Lambert Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Josef Karthauser , Matt Dillon , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I can't believe this! Message-ID: <20020822023714.GQ3751@elvis.mu.org> References: <20020821174426.17A7A3954@sitemail.everyone.net> <20020821181316.GA1886@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020821214913.GA753@hades.hell.gr> <3D642F94.B153DB1D@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D642F94.B153DB1D@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert [tlambert2@mindspring.com] wrote : > > On 2002-08-21 19:13 +0000, Josef Karthauser wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 10:44:25AM -0700, Matt Dillon wrote: > > > > Here's the answer.. http://www.linuxforlesbians.org/~pjs/hiten-idiot.txt > > > > Hiten is an idiot, discuss > > > > > > He's a 15 year old kid, a bit shy on life experience. > > > What do you expect? > > > Grow up man! > > > > Add to this the fact that he's one of the 15-yr olds I have actually > > *enjoyed* talking & working with, and then the Trolls will hopefully > > "See the Light(TM)" and turn to stone. We all know that light can > > turn any average Troll to a bunch of slow, boring rocks :) > > I have never had a problem with Hiten; he asks intelligent > questions, and appears to understand the answers (e.g. his > recent question about System V Message Queues and the > overlay structure definition for getting the message type > out without hitting your head on architecture dependent > structure packing). Hiten is great. He is fast becoming a valueble addition to the FreeBSD community, and is polite and enthusiastic. I look forward to being able to work with him in the future. -- Jonathan Mini http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 23:49:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495BC37B400; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 23:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE64743E42; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 23:49:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.5/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g7M6nKdc093522; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 23:49:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.5/8.12.4/Submit) id g7M6nI8P093521; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 23:49:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 23:49:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200208220649.g7M6nI8P093521@apollo.backplane.com> To: Jon Mini Cc: Terry Lambert , Giorgos Keramidas , Josef Karthauser , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I can't believe this! References: <20020821174426.17A7A3954@sitemail.everyone.net> <20020821181316.GA1886@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020821214913.GA753@hades.hell.gr> <3D642F94.B153DB1D@mindspring.com> <20020822023714.GQ3751@elvis.mu.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Look guys, it only takes a few keystrokes to fix/remove/reassign incorrectly quoted material. I *obviously* did not make that utterly idiotic statement, PLEASE STOP QUOTING IT AS COMING FROM ME! Sheesh. If I ever find the bozo he is going to quite seriously wind up with a few metric tons of shit in his front yard. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 21 23:53:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AFCA37B400; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 23:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk [81.2.69.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BD4243E70; Wed, 21 Aug 2002 23:53:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: from happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by smtp.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g7M6r6QI026616; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 07:53:06 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from matthew@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk) Received: (from matthew@localhost) by happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g7M6r011026615; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 07:53:00 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 07:53:00 +0100 From: Matthew Seaman To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD on a Mac Message-ID: <20020822065300.GA26403@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <006e01c24958$18786bd0$1bae4e18@D> <200208211845.41579.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200208211845.41579.dkelly@HiWAAY.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 06:45:41PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: > On Wednesday 21 August 2002 04:17 pm, Derrick MacPherson wrote: > > > If there is any feature I'd like for FreeBSD to have is Apple's > > > Aqua. > > > > Yeah, it's a nice interface, I find it gets more annoying after time > > though. To be honest, my fave interface to any unix I have used so > > far is 4Dwm from SGI. There was a few attempts at creating Aqua for > > Linux, but Apple asked them to stop working on it. Short sighted I > > would think, but what else is new? > > I too miss the simple and clean 4Dwm. > > But its not just the look of Aqua I desire for FreeBSD, but the whole > shooting match behind it. If FreeBSD had that then all MacOS X > applications should be as easy or easier to port to FreeBSD than Linux > apps are today. In theory, the GNUstep project (http://www.gnustep.org/, ports: devel/gnustep) should provide an object compatible development system. Ideally this would allow a MacOS X application to be ported by a simple re-compile. The interface looks a lot more like Nextstep 3.3 rather than Aqua, but that's no bad thing IMHO. This is a project that was started well before the NeXT/Apple merger and has been making slow progress ever since. Conceptually it has a lot in common with Gnome and KDE, but the use of Objective C/Java rather than C++ as the core languages should mean that the footprint on the system is a lot smaller. > And Apple would have a state of the art x86 platform. Apple would love the idea that there are a multiplicity of platforms available to encourage developers to write applications that will be available on MacOS X, and would hate the competition for hardware sales. Considering the relative contributions of hardware to OS sales to the Apple's overall balance sheet, you can guess which view will win out. This is getting OT for -questions: a move to -chat seems like a good idea to me. Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 26 The Paddocks Savill Way Marlow Tel: +44 1628 476614 Bucks., SL7 1TH UK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 22 0: 7:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 931) id 8E15937B400; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:07:36 -0700 From: Juli Mallett To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Jon Mini , Terry Lambert , Giorgos Keramidas , Josef Karthauser , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I can't believe this! Message-ID: <20020822000736.A39778@FreeBSD.org> References: <20020821174426.17A7A3954@sitemail.everyone.net> <20020821181316.GA1886@genius.tao.org.uk> <20020821214913.GA753@hades.hell.gr> <3D642F94.B153DB1D@mindspring.com> <20020822023714.GQ3751@elvis.mu.org> <200208220649.g7M6nI8P093521@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <200208220649.g7M6nI8P093521@apollo.backplane.com>; from dillon@apollo.backplane.com on Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 11:49:18PM -0700 Organisation: The FreeBSD Project X-Alternate-Addresses: , , , , X-Towel: Yes X-LiveJournal: flata, jmallett X-Negacore: Yes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * De: Matthew Dillon [ Data: 2002-08-21 ] [ Subjecte: Re: I can't believe this! ] > Look guys, it only takes a few keystrokes to fix/remove/reassign > incorrectly quoted material. I *obviously* did not make that utterly > idiotic statement, PLEASE STOP QUOTING IT AS COMING FROM ME! Sheesh. If They could be the other Matt Dillon - the actor. Let's all boycott his films! -- Juli Mallett | FreeBSD: The Power To Serve Will break world for fulltime employment. | finger jmallett@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 22 0:37:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B25AF37B407; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F19343E65; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:37:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7M7bNL91944; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:37:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:37:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: Juli Mallett Cc: Matthew Dillon , Jon Mini , Terry Lambert , Giorgos Keramidas , Josef Karthauser , , Subject: Re: I can't believe this! In-Reply-To: <20020822000736.A39778@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: <20020822003653.P45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Juli Mallett wrote: > They could be the other Matt Dillon - the actor. Let's all boycott his > films! i'm amazed you don't already. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 22 8: 8:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5DC937B47B for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail15.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.215]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B96F943E65 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:08:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 2489 invoked from network); 22 Aug 2002 15:08:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail15.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 22 Aug 2002 15:08:21 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g7MF8HBQ021415; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:08:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200208220649.g7M6nI8P093521@apollo.backplane.com> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:08:23 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Matthew Dillon Subject: Re: I can't believe this! Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ hackers@ removed ] On 22-Aug-2002 Matthew Dillon wrote: > Look guys, it only takes a few keystrokes to fix/remove/reassign > incorrectly quoted material. I *obviously* did not make that utterly > idiotic statement, PLEASE STOP QUOTING IT AS COMING FROM ME! Sheesh. If > I ever find the bozo he is going to quite seriously wind up with a few > metric tons of shit in his front yard. Hahah, ROFL. I hope you don't mind me quoting that as coming from you. :) -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 22 13:51:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7164E37B400 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-34-52.knology.net [24.214.34.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADBC443E6A for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:51:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g7MKpolt036486; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:51:50 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g7MKpoQR036485; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:51:50 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:51:46 -0500 From: David Kelly To: Benjamin Krueger Cc: Josh Paetzel , Kevin Stevens , John Bleichert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD on a Mac Message-ID: <20020822205146.GA36456@grumpy.dyndns.org> References: <69122C86-B56D-11D6-8C70-003065715DA8@pursued-with.net> <1029964014.226.3.camel@markx.vladsempire.net> <20020822130841.G26883@mail.seattleFenix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020822130841.G26883@mail.seattleFenix.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat] On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 01:08:41PM -0700, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > > Apple does not own PowerPC, it belongs to IBM. Is a joint project owned at least in part by Apple, IBM, and Motorola. The CPU is derived from IBM's RS-6000 RISC. The MMU is from Motorola's 88000 RISC. Apple brought the two others together and committed to volume purchases, rendering the project into an economic feasibility. > IBM currently uses it in many of their server offerings. Apple's > current line of PowerPC cpus are an implementation manufactured by > Motorola. Motorola will sell them to folks other than Apple. In fact, > Motorola has an entire line of PowerPC products for embedded and other > systems. Have an Apple G4 sitting right here but not interested enough to verify who manufactured it to remove its heatsink. Was my understanding IBM's big bally-hoo'ed copper chip process was being used and that most if not all G4's were manufactured by IBM. Motorola's embedded PPC CPU family is called "ColdFire". -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 22 14:27: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 913FF37B400 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from janeway.vonbek.dhs.org (bgm-24-24-79-198.stny.rr.com [24.24.79.198]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B922143E86 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:27:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syborg@stny.rr.com) Received: by janeway.vonbek.dhs.org (Postfix, from userid 507) id 3BBD64FA51; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:24:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by janeway.vonbek.dhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339E04A0D; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:24:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:24:23 -0400 (EDT) From: John Bleichert X-X-Sender: syborg@janeway.vonbek.dhs.org Reply-To: John Bleichert To: David Kelly Cc: Benjamin Krueger , Josh Paetzel , Kevin Stevens , Subject: Re: FreeBSD on a Mac In-Reply-To: <20020822205146.GA36456@grumpy.dyndns.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, David Kelly wrote: > Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:51:46 -0500 > From: David Kelly > To: Benjamin Krueger > Cc: Josh Paetzel , > Kevin Stevens , > John Bleichert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: FreeBSD on a Mac > > [moved to -chat] > > On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 01:08:41PM -0700, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > > > > Apple does not own PowerPC, it belongs to IBM. > > Is a joint project owned at least in part by Apple, IBM, and Motorola. > The CPU is derived from IBM's RS-6000 RISC. The MMU is from Motorola's > 88000 RISC. Apple brought the two others together and committed to > volume purchases, rendering the project into an economic feasibility. > > > IBM currently uses it in many of their server offerings. Apple's > > current line of PowerPC cpus are an implementation manufactured by > > Motorola. Motorola will sell them to folks other than Apple. In fact, > > Motorola has an entire line of PowerPC products for embedded and other > > systems. > > Have an Apple G4 sitting right here but not interested enough to verify > who manufactured it to remove its heatsink. Was my understanding IBM's > big bally-hoo'ed copper chip process was being used and that most if not > all G4's were manufactured by IBM. > > Motorola's embedded PPC CPU family is called "ColdFire". > IBM made the chips for the first couple revs, and Motorola has been doing the fab work for the last 2 years. Word is that, due to Motorola's yield problems, that fab work may go back to IBM. /* * John Bleichert * syborg@stny.rr.com * http://vonbek.dhs.org/latest.jpg */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 22 20:18:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2309337B400 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vienna9.his.com (vienna9.his.com [216.200.68.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E2E43E72 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:18:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [146.106.12.76] (root@[127.0.0.1]) by vienna9.his.com (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g7MMhH300902; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:43:17 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020822205146.GA36456@grumpy.dyndns.org> References: <69122C86-B56D-11D6-8C70-003065715DA8@pursued-with.net> <1029964014.226.3.camel@markx.vladsempire.net> <20020822130841.G26883@mail.seattleFenix.net> <20020822205146.GA36456@grumpy.dyndns.org> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 00:41:58 +0200 To: David Kelly , Benjamin Krueger From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: FreeBSD on a Mac Cc: Josh Paetzel , Kevin Stevens , John Bleichert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:51 PM -0500 2002/08/22, David Kelly wrote: > Have an Apple G4 sitting right here but not interested enough to verify > who manufactured it to remove its heatsink. Was my understanding IBM's > big bally-hoo'ed copper chip process was being used and that most if not > all G4's were manufactured by IBM. Nope. IBM only recently licensed the AltiVec technology from Motorola, and so far as I know hasn't used it in any chips. They still make the faster G3 chips, but only Motorola makes the G4 chips. Most any Mac sold in the last two or three years with a G3 has a chip from IBM, and any Mac sold with a G4 must have had it sourced from Motorola. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 22 21:55: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EFFD37B400 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 21:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.83]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C314643E6A for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 21:55:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from probe-1030074638-1030078504-freebsd-chat=freebsd.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com) X-eGroups-Return: probe-1030074638-1030078504-freebsd-chat=freebsd.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.176] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Aug 2002 04:55:04 -0000 Message-ID: Date: 23 Aug 2002 04:55:04 -0000 From: Yahoo!Groups Reply-To: confirm-unbounce-1030074638-77923465-53104@yahoogroups.co.uk To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Please reactivate your Yahoo! Groups account MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, You belong to one or more email groups provided by Yahoo! Groups (uk.groups.yahoo.com). Email from these groups can be recognized by looking for a group name in the message Subject line, like [pet-owners] or [music-fans]. Recently, messages sent to you from Yahoo! Groups have been returned to us as undeliverable. To prevent any problems with your email service, we have temporarily turned your Yahoo! Groups account OFF. If you are reading this message now, the delivery problem appears to be fixed. However, we won't know that the problem is fixed until you tell us. To turn your Yahoo! Groups account ON: - Please REPLY to this message. Send that reply back to us without changing anything. OR - While connected to the Internet, click on the following Web link (or copy and paste it into your Web browser and hit the RETURN key): http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/unbounce?adj=77923465,53104&p=1030074638 Once we get a response from you, we will turn your Yahoo! Groups account back ON, and you will begin to receive messages from your groups again. After you respond, you can read any messages you might have missed while your account was off by visiting: http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Thank you for using Yahoo! Groups! Yahoo! Groups Customer Care Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 23 14:23:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12D9B37B400 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carver.gumbysoft.com (carver.gumbysoft.com [66.220.23.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC9D143E3B for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:23:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@gumbysoft.com) Received: by carver.gumbysoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4333572FC5; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by carver.gumbysoft.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EE1E72D9E for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:22:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Please reactivate your Yahoo! Groups account In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020823141603.S39188-100000@carver.gumbysoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org By the way, DO NOT reply to or reactivate this ... it will eventually disable itself. Some nimrod has subscribed the list to a group, which shouldn't happen... > You belong to one or more email groups provided by Yahoo! Groups > (uk.groups.yahoo.com). Email from these groups can be recognized by > looking for a group name in the message Subject line, like > [pet-owners] or [music-fans]. -- Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@gumbysoft.com | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 24 5:52: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38CC137B400; Sat, 24 Aug 2002 05:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omta01.mta.everyone.net (sitemail3.everyone.net [216.200.145.37]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C104E43E6E; Sat, 24 Aug 2002 05:51:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from egoldstein@digiverse.net) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (dsnat [216.200.145.62]) by omta01.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E8161C91AE; Sat, 24 Aug 2002 05:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 7638E3954; Sat, 24 Aug 2002 05:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 05:51:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Emmanuel Goldstein To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: What we can learn from BSD? Reply-To: egoldstein@digiverse.net X-Originating-Ip: [65.25.96.4] Message-Id: <20020824125158.7638E3954@sitemail.everyone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What We Can Learn From BSD By Chinese Karma Whore, Version 1.0 Everyone knows about BSD's failure and imminent demise. As we pore over the history of BSD, we'll uncover a story of fatal mistakes, poor priorities, and personal rivalry, and we'll learn what mistakes to avoid so as to save Linux from a similarly grisly fate. Let's not be overly morbid and give BSD credit for its early successes. In the 1970s, Ken Thompson and Bill Joy both made significant contributions to the computing world on the BSD platform. In the 80s, DARPA saw BSD as the premiere open platform, and, after initial successes with the 4.1BSD product, gave the BSD company a 2 year contract. These early triumphs would soon be forgotten in a series of internal conflicts that would mar BSD's progress. In 1992, AT&T filed suit against Berkeley Software, claiming that proprietary code agreements had been haphazardly violated. In the same year, BSD filed countersuit, reciprocating bad intentions and fueling internal rivalry. While AT&T and Berkeley Software lawyers battled in court, lead developers of various BSD distributions quarreled on Usenet. In 1995, Theo de Raadt, one of the founders of the NetBSD project, formed his own rival distribution, OpenBSD, as the result of a quarrel that he documents on his website. Mr. de Raadt's stubborn arrogance was later seen in his clash with Darren Reed, which resulted in the expulsion of IPF from the OpenBSD distribution. As personal rivalries took precedence over a quality product, BSD's codebase became worse and worse. As we all know, incompatibilities between each BSD distribution make code sharing an arduous task. Research conducted at MIT [mit.edu] found BSD's filesystem implementation to be "very poorly performing." Even BSD's acclaimed TCP/IP stack has lagged behind, according to this study. Problems with BSD's codebase were compounded by fundamental flaws in the BSD design approach. As argued by Eric Raymond in his watershed essay, The Cathedral and the Bazaar, rapid, decentralized development models are inherently superior to slow, centralized ones in software development. BSD developers never heeded Mr. Raymond's lesson and insisted that centralized models lead to 'cleaner code.' Don't believe their hype - BSD's development model has significantly impaired its progress. Any achievements that BSD managed to make were nullified by the BSD license, which allows corporations and coders alike to reap profits without reciprocating the goodwill of open-source. Fortunately, Linux is not prone to this exploitation, as it is licensed under the GPL. The failure of BSD culminated in the resignation of Jordan Hubbard and Michael Smith from the FreeBSD core team. They both believed that FreeBSD had long lost its earlier vitality. Like an empire in decline, BSD had become bureaucratic and stagnant. As Linux gains market share and as BSD sinks deeper into the mire of decay, their parting addresses will resound as fitting eulogies to BSD's demise. _____________________________________________________________ Tired of spam from Hotmail? >>> http://www.digiverse.net yourname@digiverse - a unique name for your unique personality _____________________________________________________________ Promote your group and strengthen ties to your members with email@yourgroup.org by Everyone.net http://www.everyone.net/?btn=tag To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 24 11:15: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A496A37B400 for ; Sat, 24 Aug 2002 11:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3031443E75 for ; Sat, 24 Aug 2002 11:15:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nitewolfe@attbi.com) Received: from darkness ([12.247.4.104]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020824181500.PMQX11061.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@darkness> for ; Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:15:00 +0000 Message-ID: <000801c24b9a$1091e9c0$0200a8c0@darkness> From: "Greg" To: Subject: Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:14:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C24B70.2792AEE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C24B70.2792AEE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable subscribe ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C24B70.2792AEE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C24B70.2792AEE0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 24 13:33:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5159E37B400 for ; Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns1.inter7.com (ns1.inter7.com [209.218.8.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C629643E42 for ; Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:33:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nitedog@silly.pikachu.org) Received: (qmail 3832 invoked by uid 507); 24 Aug 2002 20:33:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nitebox) (12.245.3.129) by evanston.inter7.com with SMTP; 24 Aug 2002 20:33:45 -0000 Message-ID: <001301c24bad$8628a030$0301a8c0@nitebox> From: "Randall Hamilton" To: "Greg" , References: <000801c24b9a$1091e9c0$0200a8c0@darkness> Subject: Re: Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 16:33:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-eFilter: eFilter/EPS (http://www.inter7.com/efilter) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org sometimes...shit like this is just too easy :) congrats wolfe..welcome to chat@ :) ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg To: chat@freebsd.org Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 2:14 PM subscribe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message