From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 23 12: 9: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F82E37B401 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [207.200.51.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D6543E4A for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:09:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8NJ8sk03921; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:08:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g8NJ8sj28523; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:08:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (electron [204.177.173.173]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8NJ8pg28516; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:08:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3D8F66AB.8020309@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:08:27 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD NFS server using two NICs References: <3D8A3E52.2090202@centtech.com> <3D8A428B.B96FBE75@mindspring.com> <3D8A458B.2080608@centtech.com> <3D8A4B40.67C8E2A2@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > Eric Anderson wrote: > >>>It would help if you gave a URL into the PR database for your >>>problem report, if you are going to reference it this way. >> >>Right you are: >> >>It's PR# 35151: >>http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=misc/35151 > > > Are the clients connectiong via TCP or UDP? There is a common > problem with UDP, with clients connecting with a read/write size > that is much larger than the MTU (mostly Linux clients), so you > end up getting a crud-load of UDP packets sitting in the reassembly > buffer for long periods of tiem, without a frag retansmit mechanism > other than resending the whole of the data. Clients are UDP.. > The correct fixes for this are one of: > > o Use TCP instead > > o Drop the read/write size to less than or equal to the > amount of data that can be sent in a single MTU. > > Basically, large UDP datagrams that get broken up are someone > wanting the benefits of having a large window, without using a > windowed protocol. > > The long term correction for this would probably be to do IP > based RED queueing of requests (plain RED would result in the > ability to DOS it with partial UDP requests, and saturation > dropping of the reassembly queue would permit you to DOS real > data out of the reassembly queue with "two packet, second half" > attacks, at the expense of much > 2 packet reassemblies -- a > statistical attack, in both cases). > > > Another thing to look at is to do a dump of the raw packets on > the wires; it may be that the Sun machine is sending the requests > at random, with the multipath, and only accepting responses that > come from the "right" place in response, retrying the failed ones > forever, or until it gets a response it will accept. A dump of > the packets on the wire should tell you if this is happening. > This theory fits well with the delayed ramp-up, and the additional > delay, if soft updates are disabled. > > > Other than those theories, and what to look for, it's easier to > point you back at Matt. 8-). Ok.. I'll give the read/write size shrinkage a try - Do you know what should work? mtu's from ifconfig show 1500 - that seems awefully small. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology The moon may be smaller than Earth, but it's further away. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 23 14:14:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A86EB37B401 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1457543E6A for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:14:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0267.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.12] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17taXS-0002e9-00; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:14:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3D8F8401.E77A5DA9@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:13:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD NFS server using two NICs References: <3D8A3E52.2090202@centtech.com> <3D8A428B.B96FBE75@mindspring.com> <3D8A458B.2080608@centtech.com> <3D8A4B40.67C8E2A2@mindspring.com> <3D8F66AB.8020309@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson wrote: > Clients are UDP.. UDP for NFS is evil. See the list archives for details. > > o Drop the read/write size to less than or equal to the > > amount of that can be sent in a single MTU. [ ... ] > Ok.. I'll give the read/write size shrinkage a try - Do you know what > should work? mtu's from ifconfig show 1500 - that seems awefully small. Make it all fit in one packet. I don't know what options, etc., you are using. I would suggest 1K (1024), so that it will fit in a single packet, even with some extra options set. 1500 is the standard MTU... if it looks small to you, you must have some really whacked-out hardware... and it must violate the ethernet standards. 8-). Feel free to switch to an 8K (8192) or large read/write size, *IF you use TCP instead of UDP*. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 24 1:51:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD8537B401 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 01:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDDBC43E6A for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 01:51:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-4-162.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.162]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E17635002E; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:51:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 5E3103355; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:51:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590684C5A; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:51:37 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:51:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: Terry Lambert Cc: Eric Anderson , Subject: Re: FreeBSD NFS server using two NICs In-Reply-To: <3D8F8401.E77A5DA9@mindspring.com> Message-ID: X-Mailer: !/bin/sh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Feel free to switch to an 8K (8192) or large read/write size, > *IF you use TCP instead of UDP*. && if (ethernet_card != 3c50[1,3]) -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR TGIFreeBSD IM: 'KrisBSD' "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU!" This message brought to you by the US Department of Homeland Security To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 24 6: 0:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FAF437B404 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 06:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [207.200.51.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D39C43E3B for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 06:00:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8OD0Ok27087; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:00:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g8OD0Of08288; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:00:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (electron [204.177.173.173]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8OD0Kg08281; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:00:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3D9061C9.5050409@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:59:53 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD NFS server using two NICs References: <3D8A3E52.2090202@centtech.com> <3D8A428B.B96FBE75@mindspring.com> <3D8A458B.2080608@centtech.com> <3D8A4B40.67C8E2A2@mindspring.com> <3D8F66AB.8020309@centtech.com> <3D8F8401.E77A5DA9@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > Eric Anderson wrote: > >>Clients are UDP.. > > > UDP for NFS is evil. See the list archives for details. Unfortunately, I have several hundred RedHat 6.2 boxes that still need to access my NFS servers - and they use UDP. > >>Ok.. I'll give the read/write size shrinkage a try - Do you know what >>should work? mtu's from ifconfig show 1500 - that seems awefully small. > > > Make it all fit in one packet. I don't know what options, etc., > you are using. I would suggest 1K (1024), so that it will fit > in a single packet, even with some extra options set. > > 1500 is the standard MTU... if it looks small to you, you must > have some really whacked-out hardware... and it must violate the > ethernet standards. 8-). I meant the read/write size seems small to be set at 1500 or 1k. That would significantly reduce performance, correct? > > Feel free to switch to an 8K (8192) or large read/write size, > *IF you use TCP instead of UDP*. I think you are on to something here - I and using TCP only, and it's working fine using both interfaces. UDP strikes again! damn.. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology The moon may be smaller than Earth, but it's further away. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 24 7:32:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CEDC37B401 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [207.200.51.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 525E543E4A for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:32:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8OEWQk29306; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:32:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g8OEWQS15834; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:32:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (electron [204.177.173.173]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8OEWNg15819; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:32:23 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3D90775C.9080804@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:31:56 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD NFS server using two NICs References: <3D8A3E52.2090202@centtech.com> <3D8A428B.B96FBE75@mindspring.com> <3D8A458B.2080608@centtech.com> <3D8A4B40.67C8E2A2@mindspring.com> <3D8F66AB.8020309@centtech.com> <3D8F8401.E77A5DA9@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > Make it all fit in one packet. I don't know what options, etc., > you are using. I would suggest 1K (1024), so that it will fit > in a single packet, even with some extra options set. > > 1500 is the standard MTU... if it looks small to you, you must > have some really whacked-out hardware... and it must violate the > ethernet standards. 8-). Now, wait - shouldn't this break single NIC servers also? When I set up nfsd to only use one nic, it works fine. It's only with two NICs that I have the problem. Also, if I kill the nfsd master process, and leave the children run (the master is always the one that gets the load jacked up eating up 100% of that cpu), the machine continues to serve nfs requests, just not to the machine that pisses it off - but the other processes don't go haywire. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology The moon may be smaller than Earth, but it's further away. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 24 7:38:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3392337B401 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [207.200.51.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E0A443E7B for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:38:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8OEcek29471; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:38:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g8OEceP16541; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:38:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (electron [204.177.173.173]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8OEcbg16534; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:38:37 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3D9078D2.8090401@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:38:10 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Anderson Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD NFS server using two NICs References: <3D8A3E52.2090202@centtech.com> <3D8A428B.B96FBE75@mindspring.com> <3D8A458B.2080608@centtech.com> <3D8A4B40.67C8E2A2@mindspring.com> <3D8F66AB.8020309@centtech.com> <3D8F8401.E77A5DA9@mindspring.com> <3D90775C.9080804@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > >> Make it all fit in one packet. I don't know what options, etc., >> you are using. I would suggest 1K (1024), so that it will fit >> in a single packet, even with some extra options set. >> >> 1500 is the standard MTU... if it looks small to you, you must >> have some really whacked-out hardware... and it must violate the >> ethernet standards. 8-). > > > Now, wait - shouldn't this break single NIC servers also? > When I set up nfsd to only use one nic, it works fine. It's only with > two NICs that I have the problem. > > Also, if I kill the nfsd master process, and leave the children run (the > master is always the one that gets the load jacked up eating up 100% of > that cpu), the machine continues to serve nfs requests, just not to the > machine that pisses it off - but the other processes don't go haywire. Now I'm emailing myself.. :D UDP may not be the problem at all - with ONLY TCP set up on the server, but still using 2 NICs, I can make the problem happen. However, it is not will all Solaris clients - only a small few. I'm researching now to find out what is different. Thanks for the nudge - looks like I'm sliding downhill fast now.. :D Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology The moon may be smaller than Earth, but it's further away. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 24 9:35:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8918337B404 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 537C643E77 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:35:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0304.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.49] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17tseS-0003Yg-00; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:35:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3D9093FB.36A193FE@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:34:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD NFS server using two NICs References: <3D8A3E52.2090202@centtech.com> <3D8A428B.B96FBE75@mindspring.com> <3D8A458B.2080608@centtech.com> <3D8A4B40.67C8E2A2@mindspring.com> <3D8F66AB.8020309@centtech.com> <3D8F8401.E77A5DA9@mindspring.com> <3D9061C9.5050409@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson wrote: > > Make it all fit in one packet. I don't know what options, etc., > > you are using. I would suggest 1K (1024), so that it will fit > > in a single packet, even with some extra options set. > > > > 1500 is the standard MTU... if it looks small to you, you must > > have some really whacked-out hardware... and it must violate the > > ethernet standards. 8-). > > I meant the read/write size seems small to be set at 1500 or 1k. That > would significantly reduce performance, correct? Right now it's not working. Whatever you do, will not "reduce performance" from that. The answer is: if you want a data window larger than the MTU, use a transport protocol that supports data windows, instead of trying to abuse the packet reassembly buffer as a fixed window, rather than a sliding window. > > Feel free to switch to an 8K (8192) or large read/write size, > > *IF you use TCP instead of UDP*. > > I think you are on to something here - I and using TCP only, and it's > working fine using both interfaces. UDP strikes again! damn.. 8-). Good. Technically, FreeBSD has a DOS vulnerability here, in the UDP large packet reassembly case, but technically, people are not supposed to use large UDP packets in the first place, and very few services export UDP onto the live Internet. I imagine that if one wanted to exploit this, they could use very large UDP DNS "requests", which never get out of the packet reassembly buffer, e.g. send 63 out of 64 packets, and never send the first one. The funny part, though, is that DNS over UDP goes to TCP if the packet size goes over what would fit in a single UDP packet, so legitimate requests never use the packet reassembly buffer. The upshot is that this "DOS attack" would only result in the limit of the memory for the packet reassembly queue being consumed, and no legitimate traffic failing (since it would go right through without being enqueued for reassembly). So I guess the only system that would be vulnerable to this would be one that exported two UDP services, one which habitually abused large UDP packets to fake a window -- basically, Linux NFS. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 24 9:43:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE8537B401 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447E843E6A for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:43:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0304.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.49] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17tsmQ-00001W-00; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:43:22 -0700 Message-ID: <3D9095E9.A3125B18@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:42:17 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD NFS server using two NICs References: <3D8A3E52.2090202@centtech.com> <3D8A428B.B96FBE75@mindspring.com> <3D8A458B.2080608@centtech.com> <3D8A4B40.67C8E2A2@mindspring.com> <3D8F66AB.8020309@centtech.com> <3D8F8401.E77A5DA9@mindspring.com> <3D90775C.9080804@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > Make it all fit in one packet. I don't know what options, etc., > > you are using. I would suggest 1K (1024), so that it will fit > > in a single packet, even with some extra options set. > > > > 1500 is the standard MTU... if it looks small to you, you must > > have some really whacked-out hardware... and it must violate the > > ethernet standards. 8-). > > Now, wait - shouldn't this break single NIC servers also? > When I set up nfsd to only use one nic, it works fine. It's only with > two NICs that I have the problem. This is why I asked you for additional information, which you still haven't given me, BTW. The answer is likely that the two NIC case is not reassembling UDP datagrams for UDP packets that don't all come in on the same interface. Without you looking at the wire traffic, like I asked, or me being willing to duplicate your experimental setup (frankly, I do not have the necessary scratch equipment lying around to let me try), I don't have enough information to go on about the nature of the traffic. IMO, anyone who tries to help you will need the same information I've asked for, so the ball is in your court. > Also, if I kill the nfsd master process, and leave the children run (the > master is always the one that gets the load jacked up eating up 100% of > that cpu), the machine continues to serve nfs requests, just not to the > machine that pisses it off - but the other processes don't go haywire. Linux "master process", or what? I'll warn you right now, that the answer to that question will give some insight into the problem, but without knowing what the packets are doing on the wire, answering it will give only necessary information, not sufficient information. If you want your problem solved, you will need to make observations about what's going over the two wires. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 24 9:51:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD51C37B401 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C94243E4A for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:51:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0304.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.49] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17tstw-0000BR-00; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:51:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3D9097BB.3241C644@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:50:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD NFS server using two NICs References: <3D8A3E52.2090202@centtech.com> <3D8A428B.B96FBE75@mindspring.com> <3D8A458B.2080608@centtech.com> <3D8A4B40.67C8E2A2@mindspring.com> <3D8F66AB.8020309@centtech.com> <3D8F8401.E77A5DA9@mindspring.com> <3D90775C.9080804@centtech.com> <3D9078D2.8090401@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson wrote: > Now I'm emailing myself.. :D > > UDP may not be the problem at all - with ONLY TCP set up on the server, > but still using 2 NICs, I can make the problem happen. However, it is > not will all Solaris clients - only a small few. I'm researching now to > find out what is different. > > Thanks for the nudge - looks like I'm sliding downhill fast now.. :D Try: netstat -s | head -25 | tail -2 ... and tell us if you see anything different from: 0 discarded for bad checksums 0 discarded for bad header offset fields It's possible that the problem is that you have bad hardware checdksum hardware in the senders, and the packets are being dropped intentionally because of this. It could also be that the reassembly buffers are not being mixed... which still means you need to look at the wire contents again. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 24 10:42: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41DB337B401 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [207.200.51.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6D943E86 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:42:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8OHfxk04191; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:41:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id g8OHfwo06584; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:41:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from centtech.com (electron [204.177.173.173]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8OHftg06571; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:41:55 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3D90A3CA.7070004@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:41:30 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD NFS server using two NICs References: <3D8A3E52.2090202@centtech.com> <3D8A428B.B96FBE75@mindspring.com> <3D8A458B.2080608@centtech.com> <3D8A4B40.67C8E2A2@mindspring.com> <3D8F66AB.8020309@centtech.com> <3D8F8401.E77A5DA9@mindspring.com> <3D90775C.9080804@centtech.com> <3D9078D2.8090401@centtech.com> <3D9097BB.3241C644@mindspring.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------090502040402050109060205" X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090502040402050109060205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Terry Lambert wrote: > > Try: > > netstat -s | head -25 | tail -2 > > ... and tell us if you see anything different from: > > 0 discarded for bad checksums > 0 discarded for bad header offset fields > > It's possible that the problem is that you have bad hardware > checdksum hardware in the senders, and the packets are being > dropped intentionally because of this. > > > It could also be that the reassembly buffers are not being > mixed... which still means you need to look at the wire > contents again. Ok, here's some more goodies.. Netstat -s looks fine.. On the server, a netstat -a shows: Proto Recv-Q Send-Q Local Address Foreign Address (state) tcp4 2392 0 otter.nfsd netman.1009 ESTABLISHED Server's name is otter and netman is the solaris 7 client (using autmounter to use the nfs share). The server is running FreeBSD 4.6.2. And I've attached a small tcpdump (-w filename.txt -vvv host netman) run from the server to capture the "trigger". It's only a few packets, but these are the packets that make it go bad. Also, I'm running nfsd on the server like so: nfsd -h ip.of.nic.1 -h ip.of.nic.2 -t -u -n 10 If I run nfsd like: nfsd -h ip.of.nic.1 -t -u -n 10 it works fine. It isn't a bad NIC on the server (I've tried multiple nics, mutliple servers, and different FreeBSD OS versions) - but it could possibly be a bad NIC on the client side. What other data do you need? Heck, if I need to, I'll set up a "test bed" that you can access, and we can go from there. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology The moon may be smaller than Earth, but it's further away. ------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------090502040402050109060205 Content-Type: text/plain; name="nfstcpdump.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline; filename="nfstcpdump.txt" =D4=C3=B2=A1=02=00=04=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00`=00=00=00=01=00=00=00=B7= =92=90=3D=81=95=0B=00<=00=00=00<=00=00=00=00=E0=81 =98=16=00`N=00xT=08=00= E=00=00,=FC=93@=00=FF=06=0F=8C =B1=AD$ =B1=AD%=03=F1=08=01=10=17=ADY=E7=88+=D5`=02"8)=82=00=00=02=04=05=B4UU=B7=92= =90=3D=AD=95=0B=00:=00=00=00:=00=00=00=00`N=00xT=00=E0=81 =98=16=08=00E=00= =00,=F99=00=00@=06=11=E7 =B1=AD% =B1=AD$=08=01=03=F1?=D3=19=FA=10=17=ADZ`=12=E0=00%9=00=00=02=04=05=B4=B7=92= =90=3DH=96=0B=00<=00=00=00<=00=00=00=00=E0=81 =98=16=00`N=00xT=08=00E=00=00= (=FC=94@=00=FF=06=0F=8F =B1=AD$ =B1=AD%=03=F1=08=01=10=17=ADZ?=D3=19=FBP=10"8=FA=BE=00=00UUUUUU=B7=92=90=3D= =CF=96=0B=00`=00=00=00=9E=00=00=00=00=E0=81 =98=16=00`N=00xT=08=00E=00=00= =90=FC=95@=00=FF=06=0F& =B1=AD$ =B1=AD%=03=F1=08=01=10=17=ADZ?=D3=19=FBP=18"8i=B6=00=00=80=00=00d=AD=D5=DE= =7F=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=02=00=01=86=A3=00=00=00=03=00=00=00=13=00=00=00=01= =00=00=00=1C=3D=90=92=B7=00=00=B7=92=90=3D=A0=11 =006=00=00=006=00=00=00=00`N=00xT=00=E0=81 =98=16=08=00E=00=00(=F9:@=00@=06= =D1=E9 =B1=AD% =B1=AD$=08=01=03=F1?=D3=19=FB=10=17=AD=C2P=10=E3=B88=D6=00=00 =93=90=3D=10= =0C=00\=00=00=00\=00=00=00=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=00`N=00xT=08=00E=00=00N=A8=9B= @=00=01=11`~ =B1=AD$ =B1=AD=FF=00=89=00=89=00:!1=07:=01=10=00=01=00=00=00=00=00=00 EDEFEOFEEBF= FFCDBCACACACACACACABN=00=00 =00=01!=93=90=3D=12l=0C=00\=00=00=00\=00=00=00= =FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=00`N=00xT=08=00E=00=00N=A8=9C@=00=01=11`} =B1=AD$ =B1=AD=FF=00=89=00=89=00:!1=07:=01=10=00=01=00=00=00=00=00=00 EDEFEOFEEBF= FFCDBCACACACACACACABN=00=00 =00=01#=93=90=3D=14Y=0C=00\=00=00=00\=00=00=00= =FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=00`N=00xT=08=00E=00=00N=A8=9D@=00=01=11`| =B1=AD$ =B1=AD=FF=00=89=00=89=00:!1=07:=01=10=00=01=00=00=00=00=00=00 EDEFEOFEEBF= FFCDBCACACACACACACABN=00=00 =00=01#=93=90=3D=C9Y=0C=00\=00=00=00\=00=00=00= =FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=00`N=00xT=08=00E=00=00N=A8=9E@=00=01=11`{ =B1=AD$ =B1=AD=FF=00=89=00=89=00:!1=07:=01=10=00=01=00=00=00=00=00=00 EDEFEOFEEBF= FFCDBCACACACACACACABN=00=00 =00=01 --------------090502040402050109060205-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 24 11:30:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62FD337B401 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from babyruth.hotpop.com (babyruth.hotpop.com [204.57.55.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D49F43E75 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:30:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cacerola@hotpop.com) Received: from hotpop.com (kubrick.hotpop.com [204.57.55.16]) by babyruth.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EA3852135C2 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:29:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (cntras5-004.ras.cnt.cantv.net [200.44.85.4]) by smtp-2.hotpop.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B943B1B8562 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:29:10 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:31:41 -0400 From: c To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: beginning Message-Id: <20020924142525.F777.CACEROLA@hotpop.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.05.03 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How did you begin to use FreeBSD? Me, I was surfing and read something about it, then went to the site, downloaded bin and the docs, and began to use it, 3.1 I guess. Then where I was working I installed 4.1, it had a bug in PHP I think ... I like it, it has a lot of options for everything, and cause of that it's hard to learn and master .... so many commands, so many options. Next, I'd need users to manage them (-: I don't have it installed at home right now. And right now I'm a little fed up with computers, btw. I need a break. Bye. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 24 12:58:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AC3B37B401 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.Alameda.net [64.81.63.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC4C043E3B for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:58:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ulf@Alameda.net) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 97F8C3A239; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:58:40 -0700 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Does anyone on the list has Veritas Netbackup Datacenter 3.4 ? Message-ID: <20020924125840.J83932@seven.alameda.net> Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.7-PRERELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, if anyone has Veritas Netbackup Datacenter 3.4, could you contact me offlist, please. -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 25 18:54:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A90437B401 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 18:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB2B43E42 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 18:54:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA25245 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:54:12 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:54:12 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Glass Message-Id: <200209260154.TAA25245@lariat.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: The FSF makes up tales about BSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#bsd an unidentified writer at the FSF (most likely Bradley Kuhn) writes: "The BSD system was developed by UC Berkeley as non-free software in the 80s, and became free in the early 90s." And later, just below that, "The BSD developers were inspired to make their code free software by the example of the GNU Project, and explicit appeals from GNU activists helped convince them to start...." It seems to me that those who know the true history of BSD should protest this attempt to rewrite history vigorously. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 25 19: 6: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F394237B401 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net (conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.54]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9793143E42 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:06:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0239.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.239] helo=mindspring.com) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17uO2R-0004ut-00; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:06:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3D926AEA.AA1B2CD0@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:03:22 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FSF makes up tales about BSD References: <200209260154.TAA25245@lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > It seems to me that those who know the true history of BSD should protest > this attempt to rewrite history vigorously. "Vigorously protest" or "vigorously attempt" or "vigorously rewrite history"? 8-) 8-). "You can't put too much water in a nuclear reactor..." "You can't look too long at a mushroom cloud..." -- Ed Asner, on _SNL_ "Eat every bean and pea on your plate" -- Anon -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 25 19:17:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83AF537B433 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org [64.239.180.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060E443E9E for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:17:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dave@jetcafe.org) Received: from hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8Q2Gq185607; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:16:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dave@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org) Message-Id: <200209260216.g8Q2Gq185607@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FSF makes up tales about BSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:16:47 -0700 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Vigorously protest" or "vigorously attempt" or "vigorously rewrite > history"? "Vigorously argue about it". ;) ------ Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< "My trouble is that I can't remember anything." "When did this start?" "When did _what_ start?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 25 19:30:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43DA937B401 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A819B43E6E for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:30:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g8Q2VcFh005240; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:31:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from localhost (polytarp@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id g8Q2Vbjo005237; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:31:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:31:37 -0400 (EDT) From: pgreen To: Dave Hayes Cc: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , Subject: Re: The FSF makes up tales about BSD In-Reply-To: <200209260216.g8Q2Gq185607@hokkshideh2.jetcafe.org> Message-ID: <20020925223111.G5079-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This doesn't surprise me. We all know the FSF's funded by communists. On Wed, 25 Sep 2002, Dave Hayes wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > "Vigorously protest" or "vigorously attempt" or "vigorously rewrite > > history"? > > "Vigorously argue about it". ;) > ------ > Dave Hayes - Consultant - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org > >>> The opinions expressed above are entirely my own <<< > > "My trouble is that I can't remember anything." > "When did this start?" > "When did _what_ start?" > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 25 21:35: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3731837B401 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E7F43E42 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:35:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020926043502.CTR15492.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@localhost.localdomain>; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 04:35:02 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g8Q4bV3q032886; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:37:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g8Q4bQkh032883; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:37:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FSF makes up tales about BSD References: <200209260154.TAA25245@lariat.org> From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 25 Sep 2002 21:37:25 -0700 In-Reply-To: <200209260154.TAA25245@lariat.org> Message-ID: Lines: 51 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > "The BSD system was developed by UC Berkeley as non-free software in the 80s, > and became free in the early 90s." So what, exactly, do you propose we protest? 1) There is no "the BSD system"; there are several? 2) It was developed not *BY* UCB, but by people *AT* UCB and many other locales? 3) It was developed from 1975-now? 4) It didn't become free, as it's still owned by a cast of thousands? > "The BSD developers were inspired to make their code free software by the > example of the GNU Project, and explicit appeals from GNU activists helped > convince them to start...." 5) Only *SOME* BSD developers were so inspired? (There must be SOME.) 6) That their appeals fell on nothing but deaf ears and didn't help? 7) That the BSD developers started to make their code GNU-speak-free before there were any GNU activists but it took the GNU activists to help convince them to *finish* the job after nearly 20 years? A more important question is: where should this travesty be protested? Maybe "gnu.misc.discuss"? That's little better than doing it here. And I'm afraid it would sound like quibbling anyway, when you get down to the details, while it contains enough grains of truth to make a reasonable-sounding protest at a high level. > It seems to me that those who know the true history of BSD should protest > this attempt to rewrite history vigorously. And they could point to some better histories: Books: A History of UNIX before Berkeley: UNIX(R) Evolution, 1975-1984 A Quarter Century of Unix, Peter H. Salus, Addison-Wesley 1994 Internet: http://www.bell-labs.com/history/unix/ http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Unix_History/ http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/index.html"> http://www.daemonnews.org/199903/history.html http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/doug97.html http://www.kearneys.ca/~brent/FreeBSD/unixhistory.ps http://www.multicians.org http://comp-hist.sourceforge.net I'll bet that last one has some GNU influences to be rooted out. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 26 1:53:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DBA637B404 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 01:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6974143E4A for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 01:53:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.homeip.net) Received: from christine.energyhq.tk (christine.energyhq.tk [192.168.0.1]) by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix) with SMTP id CDB8FAF590; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:53:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:54:10 +0200 From: Miguel Mendez To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FSF makes up tales about BSD Message-Id: <20020926105410.16be5286.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> In-Reply-To: <200209260154.TAA25245@lariat.org> References: <200209260154.TAA25245@lariat.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) X-Face: 1j}k*2E>Y\+C~E|/wehi[:dCM,{N7/uE3o# P,{t7gA/qnovFDDuyQV.1hdT7&#d)q"xY33}{_GS>kk'S{O]nE$A`T|\4&p\&mQyexOLb8}FO List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:54:12 -0600 (MDT) Brett Glass wrote: Hi, > At > > http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#bsd [...] > It seems to me that those who know the true history of BSD should > protest this attempt to rewrite history vigorously. Brett, that article talks about why GNU/we GNU/should GNU/all GNU/say GNU/GNU/Linux. Honestly, these people are either delusional or do smoke some high quality crack. :-) Given that most of that article seems to be BS, don't take the BSD part too seriously :) -- Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk NetBSD :: Unix without hype To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 26 2:40:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3437637B401 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 02:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f38.sea1.hotmail.com [207.68.163.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7C4243E75 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 02:40:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tuxico@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 02:40:28 -0700 Received: from 213.56.82.221 by sea1fd.sea1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:40:28 GMT X-Originating-IP: [213.56.82.221] From: "Tux ico" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:40:28 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Sep 2002 09:40:28.0655 (UTC) FILETIME=[BF987FF0:01C26540] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey, I found in your archive posts about art related to BSD and that link that I love : http://users.americanisp.net/~peterk/images/takeittux.jpg Last year, in Lowland for the HAL meeting, a man showed us a T-shirt with Chuck and Tux dancing together, does anyone knows where I can find it ? Please CC me as I am not in the list. Thanks in advance. squale . _________________________________________________________________ Affichez, modifiez et partagez gratuitement vos photos en ligne: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 26 9:17:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE2D37B401 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F57D43E75 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:17:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-4-90.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.90]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A98015002E for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:17:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id AB6913355; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:17:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6D5A4C5A for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:17:00 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:17:00 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Fortune Canidate Message-ID: X-Mailer: !/bin/sh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Never underestimate the infallible power of mimes." -- Chris Crews -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR TGIFreeBSD IM: 'KrisBSD' "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU!" This message brought to you by the US Department of Homeland Security To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 26 9:20:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B7037B401 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.comcast.net (smtp.comcast.net [24.153.64.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E7D43E6E for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:20:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomifeh@earthlink.net) Received: from earthlink.net (bgp586692bgs.jdover01.nj.comcast.net [68.39.202.147]) by mtaout01.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 1.4 (built Aug 5 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H3200F4W01HQF@mtaout01.icomcast.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:20:03 -0400 From: Lawrence Sica Subject: Re: The FSF makes up tales about BSD In-reply-to: <200209260154.TAA25245@lariat.org> To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, Sep 25, 2002, at 21:54 US/Eastern, Brett Glass wrote: > At > > http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#bsd > > an unidentified writer at the FSF (most likely Bradley Kuhn) writes: > > "The BSD system was developed by UC Berkeley as non-free software in > the 80s, > and became free in the early 90s." > > And later, just below that, > > "The BSD developers were inspired to make their code free software by > the > example of the GNU Project, and explicit appeals from GNU activists > helped > convince them to start...." > > It seems to me that those who know the true history of BSD should > protest > this attempt to rewrite history vigorously. > The powered of Rose, or in this case GNU colored glasses. Note how Linux, or GNU/Linux or YoMomma/Linux or whatever was now created in 1984 and not exactly by Linus? There was a register rant/article by RMS where he claimed to have started Linux in 1984. Man I wish I had their free time. --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 26 9:22:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F8D37B401 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.comcast.net (smtp.comcast.net [24.153.64.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C692D43E7B for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:22:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomifeh@earthlink.net) Received: from earthlink.net (bgp586692bgs.jdover01.nj.comcast.net [68.39.202.147]) by mtaout03.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 13 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H32007DR05VB7@mtaout03.icomcast.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:22:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:22:42 -0400 From: Lawrence Sica Subject: Re: The FSF makes up tales about BSD In-reply-to: <20020925223111.G5079-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> To: pgreen Cc: Dave Hayes , Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <2ECAE165-D16C-11D6-B479-000393A335A2@earthlink.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, Sep 25, 2002, at 22:31 US/Eastern, pgreen wrote: > This doesn't surprise me. We all know the FSF's funded by communists. > This is the 21st century... s/communists/terrorists/g --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 26 12:53:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8749637B401 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA23443E6A for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:53:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g8QJsbFh068132; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:54:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from localhost (polytarp@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id g8QJsaiG068128; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:54:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:54:36 -0400 (EDT) From: pgreen To: Lawrence Sica Cc: Dave Hayes , Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , Subject: Re: The FSF makes up tales about BSD In-Reply-To: <2ECAE165-D16C-11D6-B479-000393A335A2@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20020926155404.L68088-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 26 Sep 2002, Lawrence Sica wrote: > > On Wednesday, Sep 25, 2002, at 22:31 US/Eastern, pgreen wrote: > > > This doesn't surprise me. We all know the FSF's funded by communists. > > > > This is the 21st century... s/communists/terrorists/g > > --Larry > > What about communo-terrorists? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 26 13:24:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA95837B401 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arbornet.org (m-net.arbornet.org [209.142.209.161]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18F9343E77 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:24:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from m-net.arbornet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g8QKPjFh071044 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:25:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from polytarp@m-net.arbornet.org) Received: from localhost (polytarp@localhost) by m-net.arbornet.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id g8QKPjae071041 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:25:45 -0400 (EDT) From: pgreen To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FSF makes up tales about BSD Message-ID: <20020926162427.O70962-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On 2002-09-25 22:31, pgreen wrote: > > This doesn't surprise me. We all know the FSF's funded by communists. > > But polytarp, I want you to prove it! > Well... I'm not sure I can find PROOF. However, one must look at the organization to decide LIKELYHOOD. First, they support free software, but it can't be used to make a profit! Second, http://2changetheworld.info/, a site of the so-called 'Revolutionary Communist Party', includes information about how to turn the FSF people, and their users, into gnumaos. They get 67% of their profits from individual users...; but who's donating the rest? Could it be communes? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 26 13:24:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5C6537B401 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.comcast.net (smtp.comcast.net [24.153.64.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39FC643EAA for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:24:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lomifeh@earthlink.net) Received: from earthlink.net (bgp586692bgs.jdover01.nj.comcast.net [68.39.202.147]) by mtaout06.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 13 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H3200526BCVZ8@mtaout06.icomcast.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:24:29 -0400 From: Lawrence Sica Subject: Re: The FSF makes up tales about BSD In-reply-to: <20020926201121.GB41492@hades.hell.gr> To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: pgreen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.546) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, Sep 26, 2002, at 16:11 US/Eastern, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2002-09-26 15:54, pgreen wrote: >> On Thu, 26 Sep 2002, Lawrence Sica wrote: >>> On Wednesday, Sep 25, 2002, at 22:31 US/Eastern, pgreen wrote: >>>> This doesn't surprise me. We all know the FSF's funded by >>>> communists. >>> >>> This is the 21st century... s/communists/terrorists/g >> >> What about communo-terrorists? > > Terrorists that have been trained in camps hidden deep in the > mountains of countries that were previously under the `dark influence' > of communistic parties. Ruthless killers that don't believe in God or > the Devil, but take oaths by the names of Marx, Lenin, Stalin and > Trotsky. > > You know, this is really becoming fun, when imagination kicks in. > You are forgetting vegitarians and environmentalists --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 26 13:28: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29B337B401 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A218043E65 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:28:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b136.otenet.gr [212.205.244.144]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g8QKS5JX012276; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:28:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (hades [127.0.0.1]) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8QKS6qE042792; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:28:06 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from keramida@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id g8QKS63k042791; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:28:06 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:28:06 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: pgreen Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FSF makes up tales about BSD Message-ID: <20020926202806.GE41492@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020926162427.O70962-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020926162427.O70962-100000@m-net.arbornet.org> X-PGP-Fingerprint: C1EB 0653 DB8B A557 3829 00F9 D60F 941A 3186 03B6 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-09-26 16:25, pgreen wrote: > > On 2002-09-25 22:31, pgreen wrote: > > > This doesn't surprise me. We all know the FSF's funded by communists. > > > > But polytarp, I want you to prove it! That was me. And the words are not quite the same :-P -- Famous last words: "What duck?" -- (Terry Pratchett, Soul Music) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 26 18: 7:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0EA737B401 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 18:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mke-24-209-122-123.wi.rr.com [24.209.122.123]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4392443E7B for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 18:07:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nharlan@wi.rr.com) From: "nharlan" Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 20:19:37 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: $60,000,000 IN 6 MONTHS! VERIFIABLE! CHEAT-PROOF! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020927010718.4392443E7B@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org MY PERSONAL GOAL IS TO MAKE CERTAIN THAT YOU RECEIVE $60,000,000 IN 6 MONTHS OR LESS! FACT #1 Those who "get in" on a proven successful program at it's "birth" are guaranteed success! FACT #2 THE UP WAS JUST BORN! YOU ARE AT YOUR DREAM LOCATION! THIS IT "IT"! * JUST LAUNCHED! *YOU CANNOT LOSE! *WE WON'T LET YOU! *OUR GOAL IS TO GET YOU $60,000,000 IN 6 MONTHS OR LESS! *JOIN A "FRATERNITY OF HELPERS" WHO WILL HELP YOU SUCCEED! *"THE ULITMATE PROGRAM" (UP) IS THE BEST PROGRAM IN EXISTENCE! *THE LAST PROGRAM YOU WILL EVER JOIN! STOP playing around with programs that possibly get you $20,000 or $40,000. We will help YOU get $60,000,000 IN 6 MONTHS OR LESS! 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Sincerely, Nancy Harlan UP Member nharlan@wi.rr.com ******************************************************************** GO TO THE OFFICIAL SITE: http://www.theultimateprogram.com/default.asp?up=2054 ANY QUESTIONS, ANYTIME! nharlan@wi.rr.com ******************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 27 9:43:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B28A37B401 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mile.nevermind.kiev.ua (office.netstyle.com.ua [213.186.199.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BCB843E3B for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:43:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from never@mile.nevermind.kiev.ua) Received: from mile.nevermind.kiev.ua (never@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mile.nevermind.kiev.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8RGhR4i063663; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 19:43:28 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from never@mile.nevermind.kiev.ua) Received: (from never@localhost) by mile.nevermind.kiev.ua (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id g8RGhIKe063662; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 19:43:18 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 19:43:18 +0300 From: Alexandr Kovalenko To: Miguel Mendez Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FSF makes up tales about BSD Message-ID: <20020927164318.GA63363@nevermind.kiev.ua> References: <200209260154.TAA25245@lariat.org> <20020926105410.16be5286.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020926105410.16be5286.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, Miguel Mendez! On Thu, Sep 26, 2002 at 10:54:10AM +0200, you wrote: > > http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#bsd > [...] > > It seems to me that those who know the true history of BSD should > > protest this attempt to rewrite history vigorously. > > Brett, that article talks about why GNU/we GNU/should GNU/all GNU/say > GNU/GNU/Linux. Honestly, these people are either delusional or do smoke > some high quality crack. :-) No. If they had high quality crack, they'd changed GPL->BSD, nuked all linux stuff and became *BSD developers. I think. -- NEVE-RIPE Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group http://uafug.org.ua/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 27 19:13:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BE7837B401 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 19:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9805643E4A for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 19:13:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020928021309.RUUM6431.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@localhost.localdomain> for ; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 02:13:09 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g8S2FR3q018860 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 19:15:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g8S2FLgb018857; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 19:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Congrats to Brett Glass for new BSD history article From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 27 Sep 2002 19:15:21 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 56 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Which is at http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,555451,00.asp and has been mentioned at http://daily.daemonnews.org/ and http://slashdot.org/ http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/09/27/1655220&mode=thread&tid=122&threshold=0 That was much better than the protest he seemed to be contemplating. And good coverage and detail for an article. I'll mention one quibble which someone might be able to straighten me out about. Though it's believable that the "Berkeley Software Distribution" name was "first given" to something that was only an "enhancement" or "suppliment", it seems to me that the introduction is somewhat misleading by not mentioning how soon the term "BSD" became a name for a complete OS. This article from 1984 certainly implies it was thought of as an OS long before the mass-replacement of the AT&T code of the early '90s before it was "freed": http://linuxtoday.com/stories/3909.html A History of UNIX before Berkeley: UNIX® Evolution, 1975-1984 And it provides this clue which implies that the B.S.D. was actually an AT&T release which only contained some Berkeley software: And when the 4.1BSD release of the system came out, I was pleasantly surprised to see that style and diction were present [Cher1981a]. Bell Labs has a policy of sometimes releasing software to educational institutions; this probably explains the release at Berkeley. Though the B.S.D. long contained (some) "free" Berkely code, I don't think it's fair to try to get people to consider the B.S.D. as having initially been free, even if it was licensed to some schools for no cost. The 75-84 history also refers to "buying a 4.1 or 4.2BSD system", which speaks to its non-freeness (in 1984), but that might be referring only to the price of the tapes and handling, etc.; I can't remember if AT&T licensed their part of the BSDs for a fee or only to the schools for free. After writing the above (and mis-posting it to -doc), I read at http://www.bell-labs.com/history/unix/sharing.html this: Eventually, many of these enhancements were incorporated into what became known as Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD) Version 4.2, which many other universities also bought. and: Ritchie recalled, "The contractors got the UNIX licenses from Bell Labs, but they got the BSD software from Berkeley." Anybody know when the B.S.D. first became a complete OS? (Doesn't 4.2 sound too late? Was 4.1 just patches and extras?) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 27 20:42:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71FFF37B401 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9D4343E7B for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:42:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29253; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:41:44 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook is dangerous and makes your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020927214018.03832a70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:41:34 -0600 To: Miguel Mendez From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The FSF makes up tales about BSD Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20020926105410.16be5286.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> References: <200209260154.TAA25245@lariat.org> <200209260154.TAA25245@lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:54 AM 9/26/2002, Miguel Mendez wrote: >Brett, that article talks about why GNU/we GNU/should GNU/all GNU/say >GNU/GNU/Linux. Honestly, these people are either delusional or do smoke >some high quality crack. :-) I agree. Ever since I first met Mr. Kuhn (who is most likely the author), I thought that he was a bit GNUts. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 27 20:45:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E17337B401 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:45:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5292643E42 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:45:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29279; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:43:21 -0600 (MDT) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook is dangerous and makes your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020927214229.03838e40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:43:11 -0600 To: Lawrence Sica , Giorgos Keramidas From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The FSF makes up tales about BSD Cc: pgreen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20020926201121.GB41492@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:24 PM 9/26/2002, Lawrence Sica wrote: >You are forgetting vegitarians and environmentalists Whom the Bush Administration have declared to be "terrorists" via the USA Patriot Act. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 28 9:12:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD0E37B404 for ; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 09:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (node-c-104a.a2000.nl [62.194.16.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 30FF143E77 for ; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 09:12:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdmulete@netscape.net) From: "EDWARD MULETE" Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 18:12:26 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: urgent assistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020928161225.30FF143E77@mx1.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ATTENTION: I am Edward Mulete JR. the son of Mr. STEVE MBEKI MULETE from Zimbabwe. I am sorry this mail will surprise you, though we do not know, my mother Mrs. Clara got your contact through the International Chamber of Commerce. Due to the current war against white farmers in Zimbabwe and the support of President Robert Mugabe to claim all white owned farms in our country to gain favor for re-election. All white farmers were asked to surrender their farms to the government for re-distribution and infact to his political party members and my father though black was the treasury of the farmers association and a strong member of an opposition party that did not support the president idea. He then ordered his party members and the police under his pay row to invade my father's farm and burn down everything in the farm. They killed my father and took away a lot of items from his farm. After the death of my father, our local pastor and a close friend of my father handed us over will documents with instructions from my father that we should leave Zimbabwe incase anything happen to him. The will documents has a certificate of deposit, confirming a deposit kept in custody for us in a security company unknown to the company that the content is money hence it was deposited as personal belongings and ensure that we do not remain here as we could easily be found by his enemies. The total amount is US$21.5M.We are therefore soliciting for your assistance to help us move the fund out of Zimbabwe, as our fate and future is far from reality, hence this mail to you. The president's present ban of International Press into Zimbabwe and the drop from office of the Finance Minister to avoid giving white farmers fund Transfer clearance above US$1M is just a few of the unthinkable things he is committing in my Country. I have tried to reach my father's close friend Mr. John Casahans from Australia also a farmer who was leaving in Zimbabwe with us but left with his family late last year following this ugly development to no avail. Should you be interested to help us, contact me immediately via email for easy communication and I will furnish you with the time frame and modalities of the transaction. We have concluded a wonderful plan of caring out the transfer within two weeks. Please note that this transaction is100% confidential and risk free and will not endanger you or us in any way. We have resolved to give you 20% of the total sum upon confirmation of the fund in any account of your choice were the incident of taxation will not take much tool on the money and we look forward to coming over to your country to invest our share and settle there. I am arranging for a private phone so that our conversation can be 100% confidential. Please do not use the reply button, reply only to lekwot@netscape.net Please take note. God bless you indeed as you help yourself and us. Mr. EDWARD MULETE PLEASE REPLY TO lekwot@netscape.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message