From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 14 18:16:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92FBA16A4BF; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postoffice.e-easy.com.au (eth0.lnk.e-easy.com.au [203.31.73.253]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D30243FBD; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:16:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nigel@e-easy.com.au) Received: from postoffice.aims.com.au (nts-ts1.aims.private [192.168.10.2]) by postoffice.e-easy.com.au with ESMTP id h8F1Fv1q012689; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:15:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from nigel@e-easy.com.au) Received: from ntsts1 by aims.com.au (aims.com.au) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.9.0a.R) with ESMTP id 45-md50000000210.tmp; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:15:37 +1000 From: "Nigel Weeks" To: "'Tom Rhodes'" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:15:35 +1000 Message-ID: <004101c37b26$de886400$020aa8c0@aims.private> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20030912100445.1a3f7b23.trhodes@FreeBSD.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Processed: aims.com.au, Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:15:37 +1000 (not processed: spam filter disabled) X-Return-Path: nigel@e-easy.com.au X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.7 required=4.5 tests=AWL,BAYES_10,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 01:16:15 -0000 > I like this, but I'm wondering if the layout uses some kind of > database? Or are they just regular files? > > -- > Tom Rhodes > It the moment, it's regular files, but that'd be a pain to administer. I was planning to building a structure where directories contain a symlink back to a central application file(php, etc), so that from a broswer/mirroring system, etc., it appears as standard files, but it's generated from a database. Sure, big traffic may result in huge database loads, so the database server may actually be private, and it's wget'ed to the public site every 5 minutes or so. I dunno. I've had very little interest in this. I'm very tired of convincing people that FreeBSD is a professional, enterprise-grade OS, when they go to the freebsd.org site, and say it looks like a college project. If only a site existed that (I hate to say it, it seems so shallow), looked more like redhat.com, and less like a quick hack-together. I know the FreeBSD site is great! It's quick, it's links are set out nicely, but it isn't attractive to the big-end of town. This is a very big failing. It needs to be addressed. I'm just trying to help by coming up with ideas, instead of shooting down others,and complaining all the time. The sooner FreeBSD takes on a professional image, the sooner it'll get accepted and treated as a professional solution. Yes, it's wrong, but it's how life is. N. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 14 19:43:32 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7002816A4BF for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fubar.adept.org (fubar.adept.org [63.147.172.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E439243F3F for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:43:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@adept.org) Received: by fubar.adept.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9EA901524D; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fubar.adept.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8BC1524B for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:43:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hoskins To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <004101c37b26$de886400$020aa8c0@aims.private> Message-ID: <20030914193535.X34891@fubar.adept.org> References: <004101c37b26$de886400$020aa8c0@aims.private> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: RE: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 02:43:32 -0000 On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, Nigel Weeks wrote: > I dunno. I've had very little interest in this. yet you say so much... > If only a site existed that (I hate to say it, it seems so shallow), looked > more like redhat.com, and less like a quick hack-together. "don't feed the troll." -mrh -- From: "Spam Catcher" To: spam-catcher@adept.org Do NOT send email to the address listed above or you will be added to a blacklist! From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 14 20:15:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8282F16A4BF for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BEABA43F93 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:14:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 743 invoked by uid 1001); 15 Sep 2003 03:12:32 -0000 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:12:32 +0200 From: Michal Pasternak To: Nigel Weeks Message-ID: <20030915031232.GA88160@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mail-Followup-To: Nigel Weeks , 'Tom Rhodes' , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20030912100445.1a3f7b23.trhodes@FreeBSD.org> <004101c37b26$de886400$020aa8c0@aims.private> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <004101c37b26$de886400$020aa8c0@aims.private> cc: 'Tom Rhodes' cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:15:04 -0000 Nigel Weeks [Mon, Sep 15, 2003 at 11:15:35AM +1000]: > It the moment, it's regular files, but that'd be a pain to administer. > I was planning to building a structure where directories contain a symlink > back to a central application file(php, etc), so that from a > broswer/mirroring system, etc., it appears as standard files, but it's > generated from a database. Well, I'd really start with that. If you want to make a big, corporate-like website about FreeBSD - think about internals first, write some code, use some readily available web management systems (have you tried Zope yet?) - and then we can talk about this. Your idea is a very good one, but people don't browse ideas, they browse webpages. Hope you will have something to show to us soon. Regards, -- Michal Pasternak :: http://pasternak.w.lub.pl Noise to meet you. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 14 20:26:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F328116A4BF for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postoffice.e-easy.com.au (eth0.lnk.e-easy.com.au [203.31.73.253]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2ACA43F93 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:25:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nigel@e-easy.com.au) Received: from postoffice.aims.com.au (nts-ts1.aims.private [192.168.10.2]) by postoffice.e-easy.com.au with ESMTP id h8F3Pg1q037709 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:25:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from nigel@e-easy.com.au) Received: from ntsts1 by aims.com.au (aims.com.au) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.9.0a.R) with ESMTP id 38-md50000000211.tmp for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:25:01 +1000 From: "Nigel Weeks" To: Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:25:00 +1000 Message-ID: <000701c37b38$f2af0fd0$020aa8c0@aims.private> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 X-Spam-Processed: aims.com.au, Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:25:01 +1000 (not processed: spam filter disabled) X-Return-Path: nigel@e-easy.com.au X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.3 required=4.5 tests=AWL,BAYES_10 version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Subject: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:26:01 -0000 Big apologies to Mike H, and any others I've managed to tick off. I did not intend to troll. I did not intend to offend. I'm trying to convey the difficulties convincing business to adopt FreeBSD. I'm not saying the current site is bad - it's great. But decisions makers in management run on impressions first, then technical merit(or so I've experienced) We have the Technical Merit. Now we need the impression. Here's my final attempt. It's the main FreeBSD site(parts, anyway). http://www.aims.net.au/nigel/bsdn/ For those that commented, it uses 98% screen width for content, and the black on grey has gone. Again, my apologies if I've been a prick. N. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 14 20:33:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8722B16A4BF; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.gargantuan.com (rrcs-se-24-73-171-238.biz.rr.com [24.73.171.238]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 422EA43F75; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:33:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michael@gargantuan.com) Received: from cyclops.gargantuan.com (cyclops.gargantuan.com [3ffe:c00:8034:a00::18]) by phoenix.gargantuan.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DAB91EF; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:33:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael W. Oliver" To: "Nigel Weeks" , "'Tom Rhodes'" Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:33:35 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <004101c37b26$de886400$020aa8c0@aims.private> In-Reply-To: <004101c37b26$de886400$020aa8c0@aims.private> X-Personal-Email: michael@gargantuan.com X-WWW-Site: http://michael.gargantuan.com X-GPG-Public-Key: $WWW-Site/gnupg/pubkey.asc X-Home-Phone: +1-863-816-8091 X-Mobile-Phone: +1-863-738-2334 X-Home-Address: 8008 Apache Lane, Lakeland, FL, US 33810-2172 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Boundary-02=_cMTZ/ZD5g5iTtms"; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200309142333.48902.michael@gargantuan.com> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: michael@gargantuan.com List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:33:52 -0000 --Boundary-02=_cMTZ/ZD5g5iTtms Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: signed data Content-Disposition: inline +--- On Sunday, September 14, 2003 21:15 --- | Nigel Weeks proclaimed: | | I'm very tired of convincing people that FreeBSD is a professional, | enterprise-grade OS, when they go to the freebsd.org site, and say it | looks like a college project. Call me naive, but isn't this 'judging a book (or an OS) by it's cover'? | If only a site existed that (I hate to say it, it seems so shallow), | looked more like redhat.com, and less like a quick hack-together. | | I know the FreeBSD site is great! It's quick, it's links are set out | nicely, but it isn't attractive to the big-end of town. | This is a very big failing. It needs to be addressed. I think that the maintainers of the freebsd.org site would be making a=20 mistake in changing the layout of their site. It is highly functional and= =20 organized, which may not mean much to management droids, but means a great= =20 deal to those of us who actually use the OS on a daily basis. Perhaps your site can fill the void for those who aren't attracted to the=20 stock FreeBSD site. | I'm just trying to help by coming up with ideas, instead of shooting down | others,and complaining all the time. | | The sooner FreeBSD takes on a professional image, the sooner it'll get | accepted and treated as a professional solution. | | Yes, it's wrong, but it's how life is. What is truly wrong are people who redefine their own world to match what=20 they think others want to see, rather than doing what they themselves=20 believe to be right. Like it or not, the world is what we (you, me, everyone) make it, not what= =20 others tell us it is. =2D-=20 Mike perl -e 'print unpack("u","88V]N=3D&%C=3D\"!I;F9O(&EN(&AE861E Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7C216A4BF for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 22:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsdgirl.com (daemonporn.com [66.36.228.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC9543F85 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 22:03:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sektie@freebsdgirl.com) Received: from freebsdgirl.com (nat-66-223-56.interland.net [66.223.56.177] (may be forged)) by freebsdgirl.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8F55wde051769 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 01:05:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sektie@freebsdgirl.com) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 01:03:26 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Randi Harper To: FreeBSD Advocacy Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <200309142333.48902.michael@gargantuan.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:03:32 -0000 Just my 2 cents, but I love the site the way it is. It only takes me 10 seconds to find whatever I'm looking for. People that judge FreeBSD by it's website, well, they can go back to their flash and glam Microsoft or RedHat sites. As far as I can tell, those people are going to be the ones that ask questions on the questions@ mailing lists without looking at the documentation first. That's about the level of stupidity and laziness involved. Randi Harper sektie@freebsdgirl.com http://freebsdgirl.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 14 22:41:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE87E16A4BF for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 22:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postoffice.e-easy.com.au (eth0.lnk.e-easy.com.au [203.31.73.253]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 857FC43FA3 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 22:41:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nigel@e-easy.com.au) Received: from postoffice.aims.com.au (nts-ts1.aims.private [192.168.10.2]) by postoffice.e-easy.com.au with ESMTP id h8F5Q61q050678 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:26:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from nigel@e-easy.com.au) Received: from ntsts1 by aims.com.au (aims.com.au) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.9.0a.R) with ESMTP id 41-md50000000212.tmp for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:25:30 +1000 From: "Nigel Weeks" To: "'Randi Harper'" , "'FreeBSD Advocacy'" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:25:29 +1000 Message-ID: <000901c37b49$c75a7890$020aa8c0@aims.private> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 X-Spam-Processed: aims.com.au, Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:25:30 +1000 (not processed: spam filter disabled) X-Return-Path: nigel@e-easy.com.au X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: advocacy@freebsd.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) Subject: RE: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:41:35 -0000 ... People that judge > FreeBSD by > it's website, well, they can go back to their flash and glam > Microsoft > or RedHat sites. As far as I can tell, those people are going > to be the > ones that ask questions on the questions@ mailing lists > without looking > at the documentation first. That's about the level of stupidity and > laziness involved. Unfortunately, mentioning this is counter-productive when said in possible future client meetings...;-) Oh yeah, it's true. Too true. But what can you do? We need these people to survive... Perhaps...keep freebsd.org as it is, but build freebsd.com as the commercial/upper-management-tailored/abstracted from technical/whizz-bang site... I dunno. I just know it'd be easier to sell, if people were impressed from first glance. Seems shallow, yes, but might work?, maybe. Has anyone got better sales-tips, not tuned for sysadmins? From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 14 23:14:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DCF616A4BF for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krell.webweaver.net (krell.webweaver.net [64.124.90.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6D4543FBD for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:14:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@unixgirl.com) Received: from vorlon1.webweaver.net (vorlon1.webweaver.net [67.112.21.26]) by krell.webweaver.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47A1A20F02; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <000701c37b38$f2af0fd0$020aa8c0@aims.private> Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:13:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 06:14:03 -0000 Nigel You pissed people off by thinking and expressing. You actually did something when someone said - you don't like it - change it... But change frightens people.. And you took a stand. Much of FreeBSD has changed since I first started using it.. and to me not all in a good way.. That's the way it goes. Not everyone thinks the same way. (Darnit) I believe, that freebsd having the unified front is both a positive and a negitive. Linux is divided, but, that enables people to choose which they feel more at home with. Glossy or Matte.. Techie or Friendly. Personally I would love to see FreeBSD divide into Server/Workstation versions which would also then, create the techie/friendly different fronts along with it. Such as your aim is to provide. Hopefully it will at least be a "Madonna Move" and get people talking and thinking more about it! :) Nicole On 15-Sep-03 My Homeland Security Spies reported that Nigel Weeks said: > Big apologies to Mike H, and any others I've managed to tick off. > > I did not intend to troll. I did not intend to offend. > > I'm trying to convey the difficulties convincing business to adopt FreeBSD. > I'm not saying the current site is bad - it's great. But decisions makers in > management run on impressions first, then technical merit(or so I've > experienced) > > We have the Technical Merit. Now we need the impression. > > Here's my final attempt. It's the main FreeBSD site(parts, anyway). > > http://www.aims.net.au/nigel/bsdn/ > > For those that commented, it uses 98% screen width for content, and the > black on grey has gone. > > Again, my apologies if I've been a prick. > > N. > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- ******* |\ __ /| (`\ ******* * * | o_o |__ ) ) * * * * // \\ * * * Blessed Be! | Powered by FreeBSD * ----------------------(((---(((-------------------------------- http://www.unixgirl.com - http://www.deviantimages.com http://www.drumslayer.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." --Willy Wonka, Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. "Witchcraft is in essence the worship of the powers of this world, beautiful and terrible, but all in a circle under the turning sky that is the One." -C.A. Burland, "Echoes of Magic" "Connecting with energy is something humans have to be open to and talking about and expecting, otherwise the whole human race can go back to pretending that life is about power over others and exploiting the planet. If we go back to doing this, then we won't survive." -James Redfield, "The Celestine Prophecy" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 14 23:59:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C25516A4BF for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AFBE243F3F for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:59:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 90118 invoked by uid 1001); 15 Sep 2003 06:57:29 -0000 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:57:29 +0200 From: Michal Pasternak To: Nicole Message-ID: <20030915065729.GA38040@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mail-Followup-To: Nicole , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <000701c37b38$f2af0fd0$020aa8c0@aims.private> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 06:59:27 -0000 Nicole [Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 11:13:52PM -0700]: > You pissed people off by thinking and expressing. You actually did something > when someone said - you don't like it - change it... But change frightens > people.. And you took a stand. The question is not "Do we want another BSD-related website?", because the answer will always be "yes". The question is: when that gentleman will be able to provide us something more, than a static HTML page, to check out? > Personally I would love to see FreeBSD divide into Server/Workstation versions > which would also then, create the techie/friendly different fronts along with > it. Such as your aim is to provide. And what would you include in "Workstation" distribution? You already have enough meta-packages to make installing graphics environments a piece of cake. Do you have enough time (and webspace) to host such newbie-ISO project? I am sure everyone will appreciate that. Regards, -- Michal Pasternak :: http://pasternak.w.lub.pl Noise to meet you. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 00:36:25 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E99B316A4BF for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clone.dls.net (clone.dls.net [209.242.60.155]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CD4443FDD for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:36:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from emailrob.com (216.145.235.185) by clone.dls.net (MX V5.3 AnFj) with ESMTP; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 02:36:21 -0500 Message-ID: <3F655E47.D8F837B5@emailrob.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 01:37:59 -0500 From: rob spellberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Nigel Weeks References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:36:26 -0000 nigel --- it takes far less { time, money, energy, emotion } to find the "flaws" in the work of others than to create something of one's own. you had an idea; you implemented it and asked for feedback. if one person doesn't like it, then that one needn't use it [ but, if two hundred flame you, well, then, there just might be something to the heat - maybe ]. i say go forth and be creative. be a freethinker. you will make enemies among the elites and the aristocracies. you will inspire fear and loathing in the hearts of the complacent. but you will also make friends. if one idea in ten turns out to have merit, you're having a good day. so get ideas and try them out. toss the bad ones aside [ or save them for possible salvage value ]. nurture the good ones. publicate. learn to make your own pizza. oh, and while you're at it, smash the barricades and question authority, just on general principle. ------------------------- on this particular idea, you're on the right track in this sense: "you'll never get a second chance to make a good first impression." per your request, here's how upper management thinks [ imho ]: "how is using freebsd instead of the high_priced_spread going to save acme_disgronificator_corp barrels_o'cash?" ------------------------- just $0.02 from the land of corn and soybeans. rob spellberg woodstock, illinois From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 01:20:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7CBD16A4BF; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 01:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED5A243FDD; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 01:20:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (malin.twenty4help.se [195.67.108.195]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8F8Hncx053164; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:17:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <3F6575AE.3040805@401.cx> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:17:50 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030723 Thunderbird/0.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: michael@gargantuan.com References: <004101c37b26$de886400$020aa8c0@aims.private> <200309142333.48902.michael@gargantuan.com> In-Reply-To: <200309142333.48902.michael@gargantuan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: 'Tom Rhodes' Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:20:26 -0000 Michael W. Oliver wrote: > +--- On Sunday, September 14, 2003 21:15 --- > | Nigel Weeks proclaimed: *snipping some text* > | If only a site existed that (I hate to say it, it seems so shallow), > | looked more like redhat.com, and less like a quick hack-together. > | > | I know the FreeBSD site is great! It's quick, it's links are set out > | nicely, but it isn't attractive to the big-end of town. > | This is a very big failing. It needs to be addressed. > > I think that the maintainers of the freebsd.org site would be making a > mistake in changing the layout of their site. It is highly functional and > organized, which may not mean much to management droids, but means a great > deal to those of us who actually use the OS on a daily basis. Being highly functional and organized does not mean it cant look good. I agree that the freebsd.org website is a great resource for those that are already using BSD, but unfortunally I dont think it helps attracting new users. Its probably the other way around, the site may very well scare some potential BSD users away to more proffesional looking sites, ie Red Hat's. > Perhaps your site can fill the void for those who aren't attracted to the > stock FreeBSD site. > > | I'm just trying to help by coming up with ideas, instead of shooting down > | others,and complaining all the time. > | > | The sooner FreeBSD takes on a professional image, the sooner it'll get > | accepted and treated as a professional solution. > | > | Yes, it's wrong, but it's how life is. > > What is truly wrong are people who redefine their own world to match what > they think others want to see, rather than doing what they themselves > believe to be right. What I believe is right, is giving people what they want. If people want something else then what I want, then who is right? Why not a compromise? Make the first page and a few of the pages directly below it more "commercial" looking. A nice layout with just the basics, explaining what FreeBSD is and where to get it. The rest, ie the handbook, release information etc etc, can look exactly like it does now. If you are looking in those sections, you are probably a BSD user already anyway. > Like it or not, the world is what we (you, me, everyone) make it, not what > others tell us it is. The world is not what you and me make it, its what everyone makes it. Unfortunally, you and me are a very small part of everyone, so we can only change that much. If someone wants to polish the BSD commercial image a bit, Im all for it. We all know it needs it. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 01:37:40 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C097216A4BF for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 01:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsdgirl.com (daemonporn.com [66.36.228.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7084143FF2 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 01:37:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sektie@freebsdgirl.com) Received: from freebsdgirl.com (nat-66-223-56.interland.net [66.223.56.177] (may be forged)) by freebsdgirl.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8F8dsde054365; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 04:39:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sektie@freebsdgirl.com) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 04:37:22 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" From: Randi Harper In-Reply-To: <3F657772.1090000@401.cx> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:37:40 -0000 On Monday, September 15, 2003, at 04:25 AM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > Randi Harper wrote: >> Just my 2 cents, but I love the site the way it is. It only takes me >> 10 seconds to find whatever I'm looking for. People that judge >> FreeBSD by it's website, well, they can go back to their flash and >> glam Microsoft or RedHat sites. As far as I can tell, those people >> are going to be the ones that ask questions on the questions@ mailing >> lists without looking at the documentation first. That's about the >> level of stupidity and laziness involved. >> Randi Harper >> sektie@freebsdgirl.com >> http://freebsdgirl.com > > I have used BSD for over 6 years, I have done hundreds of > installations, I manage a lot of mission critical BSD systems and I > frequently *answer* questions on the questions@ mailinglist. > Still, I have several times been forced to revert to linux or even > windows based solutions, simply because I was not able to impress the > corporate suits enough to make them choose BSD. If you have ever been > up against the commercial powers of linux or m$, you would know that > the freebsd.org website will probably set you back several points > instead of helping you promote your beliefs. > > Agreed, a lot of the people we scare away are probably the lazy and > stupid ones you describe, but keep in mind that they are not the only > one that gets scared away. Corporate suits are often very easily > convinced by nice layouts and a flashy first impression, and after all > they are the ones making the big decisions. > > -- > R > > I disagree. I work for one of the larger web-hosting companies out there, and we have a large number of FreeBSD solutions. I've only worked at one company that didn't use FreeBSD, and they were a small startup that dealt a lot with java (3 years ago). I'm not going to say "if your company doesn't like FreeBSD's website, find a new job", because I know how few and far between good jobs are, but the website isn't the end all for presenting a new solution. I suggest pie charts, or things that blink. :) Good lord, I just used the word "solution" twice in one paragraph. Maybe I do belong with the suits. Randi Harper sektie@freebsdgirl.com http://freebsdgirl.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 02:03:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CEA716A4BF for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 02:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C9943FE5 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 02:03:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (malin.twenty4help.se [195.67.108.195]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8F931cx053434; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:03:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <3F658048.5060304@401.cx> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:03:04 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030723 Thunderbird/0.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randi Harper References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:03:04 -0000 Randi Harper wrote: > On Monday, September 15, 2003, at 04:25 AM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg > wrote: > >> Randi Harper wrote: >> >>> Just my 2 cents, but I love the site the way it is. It only takes me >>> 10 seconds to find whatever I'm looking for. People that judge >>> FreeBSD by it's website, well, they can go back to their flash and >>> glam Microsoft or RedHat sites. As far as I can tell, those people >>> are going to be the ones that ask questions on the questions@ mailing >>> lists without looking at the documentation first. That's about the >>> level of stupidity and laziness involved. >>> Randi Harper >>> sektie@freebsdgirl.com >>> http://freebsdgirl.com >> >> >> I have used BSD for over 6 years, I have done hundreds of >> installations, I manage a lot of mission critical BSD systems and I >> frequently *answer* questions on the questions@ mailinglist. >> Still, I have several times been forced to revert to linux or even >> windows based solutions, simply because I was not able to impress the >> corporate suits enough to make them choose BSD. If you have ever been >> up against the commercial powers of linux or m$, you would know that >> the freebsd.org website will probably set you back several points >> instead of helping you promote your beliefs. >> >> Agreed, a lot of the people we scare away are probably the lazy and >> stupid ones you describe, but keep in mind that they are not the only >> one that gets scared away. Corporate suits are often very easily >> convinced by nice layouts and a flashy first impression, and after all >> they are the ones making the big decisions. >> >> -- >> R > > I disagree. I work for one of the larger web-hosting companies out > there, and we have a large number of FreeBSD solutions. I've only worked > at one company that didn't use FreeBSD, and they were a small startup > that dealt a lot with java (3 years ago). I'm not going to say "if your > company doesn't like FreeBSD's website, find a new job", because I know > how few and far between good jobs are, but the website isn't the end all > for presenting a new solution. I suggest pie charts, or things that > blink. :) > > Good lord, I just used the word "solution" twice in one paragraph. Maybe > I do belong with the suits. > > > Randi Harper > > sektie@freebsdgirl.com > http://freebsdgirl.com I work for one of the largest callcenter companys in Europe, and we do have a significant number of FreeBSD installations. Still, I cant help feeling we would rely more on FreeBSD if it just had a more proffesional image. Pie charts and blinking things only goes that far, being able to show a good looking website would help alot, especially when youre up against Red Hat or SuSe. And honestly, FreeBSD have a lot of advantages to show, the only problem is that we do not use them as effectively as we could. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 02:17:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0C6D16A4C0 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 02:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amsfep13-int.chello.nl (amsfep13-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AA1F43F75 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 02:17:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com ([213.46.142.207]) by amsfep13-int.chello.nl ESMTP <20030915091756.DBAL16676.amsfep13-int.chello.nl@sitetronics.com>; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:17:56 +0200 Message-ID: <3F658386.1040302@sitetronics.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:16:54 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030820 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randi Harper References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:18:00 -0000 Indeed. Has anybody ever checked out http://sun.com? Devon Randi Harper wrote: > Just my 2 cents, but I love the site the way it is. It only takes me > 10 seconds to find whatever I'm looking for. People that judge FreeBSD > by it's website, well, they can go back to their flash and glam > Microsoft or RedHat sites. As far as I can tell, those people are > going to be the ones that ask questions on the questions@ mailing > lists without looking at the documentation first. That's about the > level of stupidity and laziness involved. > > > > Randi Harper > > sektie@freebsdgirl.com > http://freebsdgirl.com > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 03:13:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2974316A4BF for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.ac-net.at (secure.ac-net.at [212.24.125.8]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF9E643FDD for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:13:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shammer@daemon.li) Received: from localhost (server.ac-net.at [127.0.0.1]) with ESMTP id 1FD153F1B for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:13:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from daemon.li (dsl-236-203.utaonline.at [212.152.236.203]) with SMTP id 9843A3EFC for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:13:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 612 invoked from network); 15 Sep 2003 10:13:55 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO daemon.li) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 15 Sep 2003 10:13:55 -0000 Received: (from shammer@localhost) by daemon.li (8.12.6/8.12.7/Submit) id h8FADrB3000610; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:13:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from shammer) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:13:53 +0200 From: Josef El-Rayes To: "Devon H. O'Dell" Message-ID: <20030915101353.GA542@daemon.li> References: <3F658386.1040302@sitetronics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F658386.1040302@sitetronics.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Reply-Path: j.el-rayes@daemon.li X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.8-STABLE X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12 with AC-networks extensions cc: FreeBSD Advocacy cc: Randi Harper Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.el-rayes@daemon.li List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:13:39 -0000 "Devon H. O'Dell" wrote: > >Just my 2 cents, but I love the site the way it is. It only takes me > >10 seconds to find whatever I'm looking for. People that judge FreeBSD > >by it's website, well, they can go back to their flash and glam > >Microsoft or RedHat sites. i totally agree here. freebsd is not commerical, it is not an enterprise, it is not all about cash. we do not compare ourselves with red hat, suse and other .coms. -josef ps: why don't you check debian linux's website? -- www: http://www.daemon.li nic-hdl: JER1080312-NICAT BSD in AT: www.bsdcode.at "Make World - Not War!" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 03:49:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEC0116A4BF for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fubar.adept.org (fubar.adept.org [63.147.172.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617B843FAF for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:49:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@adept.org) Received: by fubar.adept.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 563BA1524D; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fubar.adept.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524501524B for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:49:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hoskins To: FreeBSD Advocacy In-Reply-To: <3F658048.5060304@401.cx> Message-ID: <20030915032820.T46787@fubar.adept.org> References: <3F658048.5060304@401.cx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:49:06 -0000 On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > Randi Harper wrote: > I work for one of the largest callcenter companys in Europe, and we > do have a significant number of FreeBSD installations. Still, I cant > help feeling we would rely more on FreeBSD if it just had a more > proffesional image. > Pie charts and blinking things only goes that far, being able to > show a good looking website would help alot, especially when youre > up against Red Hat or SuSe. first, if you've tracked the site at all, you'll know how far it's come over the years. everyone involved with the web/doc project deserves a huge pat on the back and a few rounds. the quality of content, number of examples, correctness, and layout (ease of navigation) of the site and documentation have improved dramatically over the years. could it be better? i don't know anything that' can't. however, the last i checked, this was a volunteer effort. if you really think the current site is so 'bad', come up with a new one that offers more content, easier navigation, faster load times, easier management, etc... and get it approved through majority vote or community consensus. now before you say "but that's what i tried to do" -- let me finish... i like creativity, but i just can't help thinking that the arguments made here by some against the current website don't hold much water. i looked at the mockup, and it was honestly pretty bad. it would not present a professional image to anyone i know, even at the director and VP level. most directors, at least, have heard about (proper use of) CSS. this thing has borders that only display in IE... that's great for a free UNIX' homepage. it has a body with a relative width but a header with fixed with... i could go on, but the point is if you want to make suggestions of this nature... at least look like you have a clue about webdesign/layout/presentation. and again, it's a volunteer effort... i may be completely off base, but i'm sure if anyone wants to convince a handfull of top-notch web designers from design firms around the globe to come in, brainstorm, and rework the site... bringing everything up to the latest standards and making it quite "whiz bang" while also being fully functional... not many would object to the free labor. ;) -mrh -- From: "Spam Catcher" To: spam-catcher@adept.org Do NOT send email to the address listed above or you will be added to a blacklist! From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 03:51:59 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA3A316A4BF for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fubar.adept.org (fubar.adept.org [63.147.172.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 744BF43FCB for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:51:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@adept.org) Received: by fubar.adept.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6BBFE1524D; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fubar.adept.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AEC01524B for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:51:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hoskins To: FreeBSD Advocacy In-Reply-To: <3F658386.1040302@sitetronics.com> Message-ID: <20030915034954.D46787@fubar.adept.org> References: <3F658386.1040302@sitetronics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:52:00 -0000 On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > Indeed. Has anybody ever checked out http://sun.com? heh. even oracle had a text-only front page up for a long while. part of trying to cheat 'homepage download times' i believe, but the point is you can be very big/successful/trusted(?) in the 'business world' and not have a website cluttered with javascript and flashy graphics. if someone makes the site better, great... but i like the current site a lot, and i'd want any changes to actually be better, not just different. -mrh -- From: "Spam Catcher" To: spam-catcher@adept.org Do NOT send email to the address listed above or you will be added to a blacklist! From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 03:56:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B865C16A4BF for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9777943FCB for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:56:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 88951 invoked by uid 1001); 15 Sep 2003 10:54:03 -0000 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:54:03 +0200 From: Michal Pasternak To: Mike Hoskins Message-ID: <20030915105403.GA88930@pasternak.w.lub.pl> References: <3F658386.1040302@sitetronics.com> <20030915034954.D46787@fubar.adept.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030915034954.D46787@fubar.adept.org> cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:56:02 -0000 Mike Hoskins [Mon, Sep 15, 2003 at 03:51:59AM -0700]: > trying to cheat 'homepage download times' i believe, but the point is you > can be very big/successful/trusted(?) in the 'business world' and not have > a website cluttered with javascript and flashy graphics. Hey, if the inventor of Java technology doesn't use it on it's front page (compare Macromedia and Flash for example)... well... Sorry, couldn't resist that ;) -- m From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 04:53:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6603116A4BF for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 04:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40D1E43FBF for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 04:53:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (132.dairy.twenty4help.se [80.65.195.132]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FBrgcx054562; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:53:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <3F65A83D.4030606@401.cx> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:53:33 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030723 Thunderbird/0.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Hoskins References: <3F658048.5060304@401.cx> <20030915032820.T46787@fubar.adept.org> In-Reply-To: <20030915032820.T46787@fubar.adept.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:53:48 -0000 Mike Hoskins wrote: > On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > >>Randi Harper wrote: >>I work for one of the largest callcenter companys in Europe, and we >>do have a significant number of FreeBSD installations. Still, I cant >>help feeling we would rely more on FreeBSD if it just had a more >>proffesional image. >>Pie charts and blinking things only goes that far, being able to >>show a good looking website would help alot, especially when youre >>up against Red Hat or SuSe. > > > first, if you've tracked the site at all, you'll know how far it's come > over the years. everyone involved with the web/doc project deserves a > huge pat on the back and a few rounds. the quality of content, number of > examples, correctness, and layout (ease of navigation) of the site and > documentation have improved dramatically over the years. > > could it be better? i don't know anything that' can't. however, the last > i checked, this was a volunteer effort. if you really think the current > site is so 'bad', come up with a new one that offers more content, easier > navigation, faster load times, easier management, etc... and get it > approved through majority vote or community consensus. now before you > say "but that's what i tried to do" -- let me finish... i like > creativity, but i just can't help thinking that the arguments made here by > some against the current website don't hold much water. i looked at the > mockup, and it was honestly pretty bad. it would not present a > professional image to anyone i know, even at the director and VP level. > most directors, at least, have heard about (proper use of) CSS. this > thing has borders that only display in IE... that's great for a free > UNIX' homepage. it has a body with a relative width but a header with > fixed with... i could go on, but the point is if you want to make > suggestions of this nature... at least look like you have a clue about > webdesign/layout/presentation. > > and again, it's a volunteer effort... i may be completely off base, but > i'm sure if anyone wants to convince a handfull of top-notch web designers > from design firms around the globe to come in, brainstorm, and rework the > site... bringing everything up to the latest standards and making it > quite "whiz bang" while also being fully functional... not many would > object to the free labor. ;) > > -mrh I agree that the mockup site was not good, but that was not my point. What I was argueing against was all the "the site is good as it is" comments that followed the original post. The site is great, content wise. Navigation is also very good. But the layout and design could be a lot better. Someone steped up and wanted to make an improvement, but was meet with nothing but criticism, and not the constructive kind. Instead of shooting him down, someone could nicely have pointed out that even if the effort is appreciated, the site he made is not good enough, but keep working on it and it might improve. Anyway, I feel like Im fighting a loosing battle here, so this will be my last post to this thread. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 05:53:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA85516A4C0 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB7043F3F for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 05:53:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (neutrino.centtech.com [204.177.173.28]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h8FCrL6T032365 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:53:22 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3F65B63E.1010205@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:53:18 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Advocacy References: <3F658048.5060304@401.cx> <20030915032820.T46787@fubar.adept.org> <3F65A83D.4030606@401.cx> In-Reply-To: <3F65A83D.4030606@401.cx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:53:24 -0000 So why not just make freebsd.com the "pretty, flashy, ooey gooey" site, and freebsd.org the "technical, like-it-is" site? Sendmail does this, and I think it works out really well. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology All generalizations are false, including this one. ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 07:25:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE02F16A4BF for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8063443FD7 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:25:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (132.dairy.twenty4help.se [80.65.195.132]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FEPZcx055454; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:25:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <3F65CBDA.3090002@401.cx> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:25:30 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030723 Thunderbird/0.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Anderson References: <3F658048.5060304@401.cx> <20030915032820.T46787@fubar.adept.org> <3F65A83D.4030606@401.cx> <3F65B63E.1010205@centtech.com> In-Reply-To: <3F65B63E.1010205@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:25:47 -0000 Eric Anderson wrote: > So why not just make freebsd.com the "pretty, flashy, ooey gooey" site, > and freebsd.org the "technical, like-it-is" site? > > Sendmail does this, and I think it works out really well. > Eric Excellent suggestion! Im all for it, providing someone is up to the task of building such a "pretty, flashy, ooey gooey" site and maintain it. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 07:30:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEF0716A4C0 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bast.ocsinternet.com (bast.ocsinternet.com [204.107.76.17]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A523F43FCB for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:30:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mikel.king@ocsny.com) Received: from ocsny.com (fw211.ocsny.com [204.107.76.211]) by bast.ocsinternet.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FEF1mA079566; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:15:02 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mikel.king@ocsny.com) Message-ID: <3F65C9A3.4010207@ocsny.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:16:03 -0400 From: Mikel King User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nigel Weeks References: <004101c37b26$de886400$020aa8c0@aims.private> In-Reply-To: <004101c37b26$de886400$020aa8c0@aims.private> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:30:09 -0000 I think some one may have already mentioned this but what about hosting the glitzy version under freebsd.com? Host this eye-candy ritch version under that name? I have observed quite a number of open source projects heading down that route, and honestly your design is by far one of the slickest... One thing everyone should keep in mind is the current site is accessible from just about any browser, even Lynx. More over it is intelligable in the Lynx which is a blessing when you don't have the luxary of a gui on your comm console... One last note, yes this new snazzy site would envite some more of the technically challenged over to this side of the fence and they are the one likely to clog our mailing lists with the questions that deserv a hearty RTFM response, but these are the same people that are currently paying $800 for rh advanced which comes with a year of support. So in light of all this maybe a .com is a good thing... Nigel Weeks wrote: >>I like this, but I'm wondering if the layout uses some kind of >>database? Or are they just regular files? >> >>-- >>Tom Rhodes >> >> >> > >It the moment, it's regular files, but that'd be a pain to administer. >I was planning to building a structure where directories contain a symlink >back to a central application file(php, etc), so that from a >broswer/mirroring system, etc., it appears as standard files, but it's >generated from a database. > >Sure, big traffic may result in huge database loads, so the database server >may actually be private, and it's wget'ed to the public site every 5 minutes >or so. > >I dunno. I've had very little interest in this. > >I'm very tired of convincing people that FreeBSD is a professional, >enterprise-grade OS, when they go to the freebsd.org site, and say it looks >like a college project. > >If only a site existed that (I hate to say it, it seems so shallow), looked >more like redhat.com, and less like a quick hack-together. > >I know the FreeBSD site is great! It's quick, it's links are set out nicely, >but it isn't attractive to the big-end of town. >This is a very big failing. It needs to be addressed. > >I'm just trying to help by coming up with ideas, instead of shooting down >others,and complaining all the time. > >The sooner FreeBSD takes on a professional image, the sooner it'll get >accepted and treated as a professional solution. > >Yes, it's wrong, but it's how life is. > >N. > >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > Cheers, Mikel King CIO/CTO Optimized Computer Solutions, INC 39 West Fourteenth Street Second Floor New York, NY 10011 http://www.ocsny.com +------------------------------------------+ You may like them. You will see. You may like them in a tree. http://www.FreeBSD.org http://www.OpenOffice.org http://www.Mozilla.org +------------------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 09:48:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B58316A4BF for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao06.cox.net (lakemtao06.cox.net [68.1.17.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68C6E43FB1 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:48:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com) Received: from fortytwo ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao06.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20030915164818.JJL4662.lakemtao06.cox.net@fortytwo>; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:48:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:47:12 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: "Nigel Weeks" Message-Id: <20030915114712.5be4e571.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <000901c37b49$c75a7890$020aa8c0@aims.private> References: <000901c37b49$c75a7890$020aa8c0@aims.private> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: 'FreeBSD Advocacy' cc: 'Randi Harper' Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:48:21 -0000 On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:25:29 +1000 "Nigel Weeks" wrote: > ... People that judge > > FreeBSD by > > it's website, well, they can go back to their flash and glam > > Microsoft > > or RedHat sites. As far as I can tell, those people are going > > to be the > > ones that ask questions on the questions@ mailing lists > > without looking > > at the documentation first. That's about the level of stupidity and > > laziness involved. > > Unfortunately, mentioning this is counter-productive when said in possible > future client meetings...;-) > > Oh yeah, it's true. Too true. > But what can you do? We need these people to survive... > > Perhaps...keep freebsd.org as it is, but build freebsd.com as the > commercial/upper-management-tailored/abstracted from technical/whizz-bang > site... Yeah, building one for the brain dead could be useful. It would allow us to attract those that don't understand proffesionalism in least... such as upper management, who tend to think looks are the only thing that matter. > I dunno. I just know it'd be easier to sell, if people were impressed from > first glance. Seems shallow, yes, but might work?, maybe. Yeah, it would. But then we would have a site just a ugly and useless as the redhat site. Which if you want to create, yeah sure have fun. > Has anyone got better sales-tips, not tuned for sysadmins? It is free. It is powerful. It is stable, thus little time wasted on it not being down and thus not productive. Secure, less chance of it being compramised. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 10:00:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A100D16A4BF; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao07.cox.net (lakemtao07.cox.net [68.1.17.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F54243FE5; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:00:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com) Received: from fortytwo ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao07.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20030915170013.BAKU15705.lakemtao07.cox.net@fortytwo>; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:00:13 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:58:53 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" Message-Id: <20030915115853.4836bd86.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <3F6575AE.3040805@401.cx> References: <004101c37b26$de886400$020aa8c0@aims.private> <200309142333.48902.michael@gargantuan.com> <3F6575AE.3040805@401.cx> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: michael@gargantuan.com cc: 'Tom Rhodes' Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:00:17 -0000 On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:17:50 +0200 "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" wrote: > Michael W. Oliver wrote: > > +--- On Sunday, September 14, 2003 21:15 --- > > | Nigel Weeks proclaimed: > > *snipping some text* > > > | If only a site existed that (I hate to say it, it seems so shallow), > > | looked more like redhat.com, and less like a quick hack-together. > > | > > | I know the FreeBSD site is great! It's quick, it's links are set out > > | nicely, but it isn't attractive to the big-end of town. > > | This is a very big failing. It needs to be addressed. > > > > I think that the maintainers of the freebsd.org site would be making a > > mistake in changing the layout of their site. It is highly functional and > > organized, which may not mean much to management droids, but means a great > > deal to those of us who actually use the OS on a daily basis. > > Being highly functional and organized does not mean it cant look > good. I agree that the freebsd.org website is a great resource for > those that are already using BSD, but unfortunally I dont think it > helps attracting new users. Its probably the other way around, the > site may very well scare some potential BSD users away to more > proffesional looking sites, ie Red Hat's. This is getting bloody annoying... wtf do you mean by proffesional? I have yet to see what is so proffesional about redhat's site. It is badly laid out at best. Yes, the FreeBSD site could possibly be rearranged to look friendlier to new comers, but I seriously doubt copying redhat would help. Glib does not equal proffesionalism, at best it is very unproffesional and childish. > > Perhaps your site can fill the void for those who aren't attracted to the > > stock FreeBSD site. > > > > | I'm just trying to help by coming up with ideas, instead of shooting down > > | others,and complaining all the time. > > | > > | The sooner FreeBSD takes on a professional image, the sooner it'll get > > | accepted and treated as a professional solution. > > | > > | Yes, it's wrong, but it's how life is. > > > > What is truly wrong are people who redefine their own world to match what > > they think others want to see, rather than doing what they themselves > > believe to be right. > > What I believe is right, is giving people what they want. If people > want something else then what I want, then who is right? > > Why not a compromise? Make the first page and a few of the pages > directly below it more "commercial" looking. A nice layout with just > the basics, explaining what FreeBSD is and where to get it. The > rest, ie the handbook, release information etc etc, can look exactly > like it does now. If you are looking in those sections, you are > probably a BSD user already anyway. > > > Like it or not, the world is what we (you, me, everyone) make it, not what > > others tell us it is. > > The world is not what you and me make it, its what everyone makes > it. Unfortunally, you and me are a very small part of everyone, so > we can only change that much. No, the world is exactly how you make it. If you don't step up to challenges then things don't change. If you let idiots have their way with out doing any thing about them, then they win. > If someone wants to polish the BSD commercial image a bit, Im all > for it. We all know it needs it. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 10:20:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9499116A523; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from beck.quonix.net (beck.quonix.net [64.239.136.146]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A75F43FEC; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:20:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from essenz@essenz.com) Received: from beck.quonix.net (localhost.quonix.net [127.0.0.1]) by beck.quonix.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FHJuOS006307; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (essenz@localhost)h8FHJu1v006304; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:19:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: beck.quonix.net: essenz owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:19:56 -0700 (PDT) From: John Von Essen X-X-Sender: To: Vulpes Velox In-Reply-To: <20030915115853.4836bd86.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> Message-ID: <20030915100643.F5945-100000@beck.quonix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.34 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: michael@gargantuan.com cc: 'Tom Rhodes' Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:20:19 -0000 My thoughts.... I agree that the current site has a very good layout and design, especially the online docs. However, I feel that a few little changes could go a long way. The FreeBSD Logo could definitely use an upgrade/expansion/standardization. I am sure there is a graphics firm out there that would do this work (at a high caliber) for free - if they get a mention off the main page. And by graphics firm I dont mean some guy with Photoshop. Other little upgrades could be changes in Font/color. Also, the wording in a few places could be re-done. For example, if you go to fbsd.org/projects, it says "FreeBSD Development Projects". That makes it sound like everything found on this page is a "FreeBSD Organization" controlled project. But its not.... Many of the links go off to third-party sites, those sites sometimes appear very "homebrew-ish". -john On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, Vulpes Velox wrote: > On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:17:50 +0200 > "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" wrote: > > > Michael W. Oliver wrote: > > > +--- On Sunday, September 14, 2003 21:15 --- > > > | Nigel Weeks proclaimed: > > > > *snipping some text* > > > > > | If only a site existed that (I hate to say it, it seems so shallow), > > > | looked more like redhat.com, and less like a quick hack-together. > > > | > > > | I know the FreeBSD site is great! It's quick, it's links are set out > > > | nicely, but it isn't attractive to the big-end of town. > > > | This is a very big failing. It needs to be addressed. > > > > > > I think that the maintainers of the freebsd.org site would be making a > > > mistake in changing the layout of their site. It is highly functional and > > > organized, which may not mean much to management droids, but means a great > > > deal to those of us who actually use the OS on a daily basis. > > > > Being highly functional and organized does not mean it cant look > > good. I agree that the freebsd.org website is a great resource for > > those that are already using BSD, but unfortunally I dont think it > > helps attracting new users. Its probably the other way around, the > > site may very well scare some potential BSD users away to more > > proffesional looking sites, ie Red Hat's. > > This is getting bloody annoying... wtf do you mean by proffesional? I have yet > to see what is so proffesional about redhat's site. It is badly laid out at > best. > > Yes, the FreeBSD site could possibly be rearranged to look friendlier to new > comers, but I seriously doubt copying redhat would help. Glib does not equal > proffesionalism, at best it is very unproffesional and childish. > > > > Perhaps your site can fill the void for those who aren't attracted to the > > > stock FreeBSD site. > > > > > > | I'm just trying to help by coming up with ideas, instead of shooting down > > > | others,and complaining all the time. > > > | > > > | The sooner FreeBSD takes on a professional image, the sooner it'll get > > > | accepted and treated as a professional solution. > > > | > > > | Yes, it's wrong, but it's how life is. > > > > > > What is truly wrong are people who redefine their own world to match what > > > they think others want to see, rather than doing what they themselves > > > believe to be right. > > > > What I believe is right, is giving people what they want. If people > > want something else then what I want, then who is right? > > > > Why not a compromise? Make the first page and a few of the pages > > directly below it more "commercial" looking. A nice layout with just > > the basics, explaining what FreeBSD is and where to get it. The > > rest, ie the handbook, release information etc etc, can look exactly > > like it does now. If you are looking in those sections, you are > > probably a BSD user already anyway. > > > > > Like it or not, the world is what we (you, me, everyone) make it, not what > > > others tell us it is. > > > > The world is not what you and me make it, its what everyone makes > > it. Unfortunally, you and me are a very small part of everyone, so > > we can only change that much. > > No, the world is exactly how you make it. If you don't step up to challenges > then things don't change. If you let idiots have their way with out doing any > thing about them, then they win. > > > If someone wants to polish the BSD commercial image a bit, Im all > > for it. We all know it needs it. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 11:22:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 261C416A4BF for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C85643FB1 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:22:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19yxyJ-0005ge-00; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:21:11 -0700 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:21:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Nigel Weeks In-Reply-To: <000901c37b49$c75a7890$020aa8c0@aims.private> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: 'FreeBSD Advocacy' Subject: RE: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:22:09 -0000 On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, Nigel Weeks wrote: > Perhaps...keep freebsd.org as it is, but build freebsd.com as the > commercial/upper-management-tailored/abstracted from technical/whizz-bang > site... Thank you, Nigel, for your work. When I first saw your page, I thought it was a generic news site for all BSDs. I agree that it would be nice to have an official FreeBSD webpage that caters to the non-developer and non-geek audience. (www.redhat.com is a great example.) I was also thinking that freebsd.com would be a fine URL for that. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 11:23:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E631C16A4BF for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krell.webweaver.net (krell.webweaver.net [64.124.90.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0FCD43FBF for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:23:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@unixgirl.com) Received: from vorlon1.webweaver.net (vorlon1.webweaver.net [67.112.21.26]) by krell.webweaver.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ECDD20F06; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20030915034954.D46787@fubar.adept.org> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:22:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole To: Mike Hoskins cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:23:10 -0000 On 15-Sep-03 My Homeland Security Spies reported that Mike Hoskins said: > On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: >> Indeed. Has anybody ever checked out http://sun.com? > > heh. even oracle had a text-only front page up for a long while. part of > trying to cheat 'homepage download times' i believe, but the point is you > can be very big/successful/trusted(?) in the 'business world' and not have > a website cluttered with javascript and flashy graphics. > > if someone makes the site better, great... but i like the current site a > lot, and i'd want any changes to actually be better, not just different. No one said it has to have Java, and spinning logo's and other annoyances, just a site that is face friendly to non techie's. IE the usual up front Contacts listings (warm and fuzzy thing there with them) Quick links to success stories and testimonials and other such gooberish that excites managers. I think manay managers want the same thing.. Its a Cover Their Ass thing. IE they want something They can point to ti Their boss, especially if something oes wrong. As I understand it managers think in these terms: (i'm sure people can add more) ROI Can I find competent people who can use it Can I easily train somone to use it Can I call or have them call someone to bail us out in a crisis. Can it really do the job? What if it can't? What will it do to / for my budget Can I point to something to get a cover my ass OK from above. With the amount of free publicity Linux has as well as all the companies tied in making servers installed with it and the rep calls from Sun.. etc.. FreeBSD needs to be that more agressive in it's promototion if it wants to jumpstart it's usage. So far I have seen some good things. But even a Managers go here link off the main site geared to them would be a good idea. So Ok a complete change too much for ya? Let him design a link off the main site to be management friendly or as someone suggested a freebsd.com freebsd.org split! Yea its silly. But look at VHS vs Beta. Technical supereriority did not win. No manager wants to buy something that they fear could be a BetaMax. Nicole > -mrh > > -- > From: "Spam Catcher" > To: spam-catcher@adept.org > Do NOT send email to the address listed above or > you will be added to a blacklist! > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- ******* |\ __ /| (`\ ******* * * | o_o |__ ) ) * * * * // \\ * * * Blessed Be! | Powered by FreeBSD * ----------------------(((---(((-------------------------------- http://www.unixgirl.com - http://www.deviantimages.com http://www.drumslayer.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dreams." --Willy Wonka, Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. "Witchcraft is in essence the worship of the powers of this world, beautiful and terrible, but all in a circle under the turning sky that is the One." -C.A. Burland, "Echoes of Magic" "Connecting with energy is something humans have to be open to and talking about and expecting, otherwise the whole human race can go back to pretending that life is about power over others and exploiting the planet. If we go back to doing this, then we won't survive." -James Redfield, "The Celestine Prophecy" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 14:41:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@www.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095E516A4BF for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ACF943F93 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:41:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from acc@anthonychavez.org) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 113F955464 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:41:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from acc@anthonychavez.org) Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E7FF16A4BF for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anthonychavez.org (anthonychavez.org [166.70.206.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E48243F93 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:41:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from acc@anthonychavez.org) Received: from pegasus.anthonychavez.org (fw.anthonychavez.org [192.168.1.1]) by anthonychavez.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3527D7A for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:41:45 -0600 (MDT) To: freebsd-advocacy@lists.freebsd.org X-PGP-Key: http://anthonychavez.org/pubkey.asc From: Anthony Chavez Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:41:39 -0600 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.3 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Subject: kinder, gentler BSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:41:48 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks: There is a project underway that should help to address some of the concerns (particularly presenting BSD in a professional manner to suits, techies, newbies, etc.) being raised on this list of late. The project of which I speak has a mailing list, currently located here: https://secure.daemonnews.org/mailman/listinfo/bsd-advocacy One of the goals of the project is to produce two sites, the first at www.bsdadvocacy.org, which will serve as an advocacy clearinghouse, with whitepapers, flyers, presentations, etc. that---in theory---should prove to be extremely useful to advocates as well as painting a pretty picture of the various BSDs. The other site, www.bsdevents.org, will simply serve up a blog to address advocacy opportunities, in an effort to bring advocates together in their areas and around the globe. It is my hope that the information on these sites will reach a level of quality and professionalism that BSD platforms deserve, so that the BSDs will have a very convenient and powerful advocacy arsenal standing behind them. This will move the BSDs into a niche, because IMO, most platforms do not have truth and objectivity backing them up (and let's face it, the BSDs are ~truly~ a force to be reckoned with). If you would like to participate in the project, please sign up to the mailing list. Things have been rather slow-going initially, but we're slowly starting to pull things together. =2D-=20 Anthony Chavez http://www.anthonychavez.org/ mailto:acc@anthonychavez.org jabber:acc@anthonychavez.org --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (Darwin) iD8DBQA/ZjIWbZTbIaRBRXERAnmhAJ96jC9ZXUMrgQTqzN3h7ptd3jC3wACfZ60W n+qUOOgcrRtIuql2cI94Gz0= =0G15 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 15 11:59:35 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEC5E16A4BF; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.iis.sinica.edu.tw (mail.iis.sinica.edu.tw [140.109.20.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B79443F85; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:59:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keichii@iis.sinica.edu.tw) Received: from infinite (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0)h8FIxRsm099743; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 02:59:28 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from keichii@iis.sinica.edu.tw) Message-ID: <002401c37bbb$7e4c5b60$b1e23e80@infinite> From: "Michael C. Wu" To: , Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:59:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:23:02 -0700 Subject: [AsiaBSDCon] Announcing the USENIX AsiaBSDCon and its Request for Papers X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:59:36 -0000 Dear Recipients: We are happy to announce that the USENIX AsiaBSDCon 2004 will take place at Academia Sinica, Taipei, Taiwan between March 13 2004 and March 15 2004. We would like to invite all whom are interested in BSD and their applications (including but not limited to: bioinformatics, scientific computing, e-commerce, operating systems, etc.) to submit papers to the conference. The RFP is at : http://www.asiabsdcon.org/cfp.shtml I am happy to say that we have a great set of invited speakers who will discuss many topics of interest. They will speak at the beautiful activity center of Academia Sinica, the premier research institution of Taiwan. ( http://www.sinica.edu.tw ) Traveling to Taiwan is considered inexpensive at USD$400-800 during that time. With limited space, the conference hotel is approximately USD$25 per single room per night, with free wavelan access on campus. For those that wish to stay in downtown Taipei, we have arranged English-speaking hotels costing from USD$30~USD$100 with convenient subway transportation. There will be no registration fee for people who register early. We also provide food during the conference at no cost to those who register within the early registration deadline. However, we welcome any donations to enable us to do more for the conference. All proceeds not used will be used either towards next year's conference or donated to independent BSD foundations. Should we receive sufficient response, we will organize a touring trip of some parts of Taiwan before or after the conference. Hot springs, beautiful canyons, towering mountains, brilliant nightlife, and white sandy beaches are all part of Taiwan. (You can indicate your willingness to join such a trip as soon as the registration system opens.) We look forward to a great conference with your participation. Regards, Michael C. Wu Program Coordinator, USENIX AsiaBSDCon 2004 From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 00:57:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F9D516A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 00:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7211B43FF3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 00:57:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (malin.twenty4help.se [195.67.108.195]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G7vNcx065266; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:57:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <3F66C262.2050108@401.cx> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:57:22 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030723 Thunderbird/0.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vulpes Velox References: <004101c37b26$de886400$020aa8c0@aims.private> <200309142333.48902.michael@gargantuan.com> <3F6575AE.3040805@401.cx> <20030915115853.4836bd86.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <20030915115853.4836bd86.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: michael@gargantuan.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 07:57:27 -0000 Vulpes Velox wrote: > On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:17:50 +0200 > "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" wrote: > > >>Michael W. Oliver wrote: >> >>>+--- On Sunday, September 14, 2003 21:15 --- >>>| Nigel Weeks proclaimed: >> >>*snipping some text* >>Being highly functional and organized does not mean it cant look >>good. I agree that the freebsd.org website is a great resource for >>those that are already using BSD, but unfortunally I dont think it >>helps attracting new users. Its probably the other way around, the >>site may very well scare some potential BSD users away to more >>proffesional looking sites, ie Red Hat's. > > > This is getting bloody annoying... wtf do you mean by proffesional? I have yet > to see what is so proffesional about redhat's site. It is badly laid out at > best. By proffesional I mean a site that does not look like something a 16 year old has made in dreamweaver. No offense to the people behind freebsd.org, you are doing a hell of a job and you deserve all the credits for it, but still the page could look a lot better. If you find redhat's site badly laid out, then we obviously have a different way of judging things. I find it good looking, easy to navigate and well thought out. Too bad their product sucks though. > > Yes, the FreeBSD site could possibly be rearranged to look friendlier to new > comers, but I seriously doubt copying redhat would help. Glib does not equal > proffesionalism, at best it is very unproffesional and childish. I have never said that we should copy redhat, I used it merely as an example. And how the hell did glib get into this? >>>Perhaps your site can fill the void for those who aren't attracted to the >>>stock FreeBSD site. >>> >>>| I'm just trying to help by coming up with ideas, instead of shooting down >>>| others,and complaining all the time. >>>| >>>| The sooner FreeBSD takes on a professional image, the sooner it'll get >>>| accepted and treated as a professional solution. >>>| >>>| Yes, it's wrong, but it's how life is. >>> >>>What is truly wrong are people who redefine their own world to match what >>>they think others want to see, rather than doing what they themselves >>>believe to be right. >> >>What I believe is right, is giving people what they want. If people >>want something else then what I want, then who is right? >> >>Why not a compromise? Make the first page and a few of the pages >>directly below it more "commercial" looking. A nice layout with just >>the basics, explaining what FreeBSD is and where to get it. The >>rest, ie the handbook, release information etc etc, can look exactly >>like it does now. If you are looking in those sections, you are >>probably a BSD user already anyway. >> >> >>>Like it or not, the world is what we (you, me, everyone) make it, not what >>>others tell us it is. >> >>The world is not what you and me make it, its what everyone makes >>it. Unfortunally, you and me are a very small part of everyone, so >>we can only change that much. > > > No, the world is exactly how you make it. If you don't step up to challenges > then things don't change. If you let idiots have their way with out doing any > thing about them, then they win. My experience is that the number of idiots in the world outnumbers the amount of non-idiots by 10 to 1, atleast. If I challenged everything I thought was wrong without first considering other peoples opinion, I would be a minority forcing my will against a majority, and I really dont like that thought. "I want it this way, who cares what the people want." I have accepted that not everyone is like me, therefor I try to adapt myself. -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 01:08:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1531016A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 01:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postoffice.e-easy.com.au (eth0.lnk.e-easy.com.au [203.31.73.253]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98D1543FB1 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 01:08:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nigel@e-easy.com.au) Received: from postoffice.aims.com.au (nts-ts1.aims.private [192.168.10.2]) by postoffice.e-easy.com.au with ESMTP id h8G88Rcw014427 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 18:08:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from nigel@e-easy.com.au) Received: from ntsts1 by aims.com.au (aims.com.au) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.9.0a.R) with ESMTP id 14-md50000000013.tmp for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:38:14 +1000 From: "Nigel Weeks" To: "'FreeBSD Advocacy'" Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:38:12 +1000 Message-ID: <003e01c37c25$7c57d130$020aa8c0@aims.private> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 X-Spam-Processed: aims.com.au, Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:38:14 +1000 (not processed: spam filter disabled) X-Return-Path: nigel@e-easy.com.au X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: advocacy@freebsd.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=4.5 tests=AWL,BAYES_20,IN_REP_TO version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Subject: Follow-up on the Mock-up X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:08:44 -0000 Well, this has been fun. Firstly, I'm not a professional web designer. I just thought I'd have a crack at it. Thanks for all the comments, especially the bad. If I'm told how to improve, I can. Here's the Pro's and Con's, and a response for each: Cons: Mike H: ...this thing has borders that only display in IE... Resp: Tested in Konqueror 3.1, IE5.5, and IE6. If you can let me know how to get the borders to appear in your browser, let me know Mike H: ...it has a body with a relative width but a header with fixed with... Resp: 10 minute fix. Top bar is now blended to RGB#990000, so should scale to unlimited widths. If your browser won't do 'background-image:, and background-color:', let me know - I'd like to hear from you. Mike H: ...at least look like you have a clue about webdesign/layout/presentation... Resp: This is what I feed on. That's why I'm replying...;-) j.el-rayes: ...freebsd is not commerical, it is not an enterprise, it is not all about cash. we do not compare ourselves with red hat, suse and other .coms Resp: Surely more purchases of cdroms from people with money is going to help get features completed quicker?!?. You can pay more developers? yes, no? T Rhodes: ...a database makes it difficult for our mirrors... Resp: This is interesting. May require some thought on how robots, wget, etc, handle arguments to PHP scripts. M Pasternak: ...If you want to make a big, corporate-like website about FreeBSD - think about internals first, write some code, use some readily available web management systems (have you tried Zope yet?) - and then we can talk about this. Your idea is a very good one, but people don't browse ideas, they browse webpages. Hope you will have something to show to us soon... Resp: I've done a few changes, and swung part of a simple content management system over to it. It's not going yet, but it'll plug in quite nicely. Schema of Database: http://www.aims.net.au/nigel/bsdn/schema.sql (not complete yet) The mock-up has been updated to cater for all coments that I can address. Please, if you can, send me more comments. If this can get to an acceptable stage, who knows, anything might happen... http://www.aims.net.au.nigel/bsdn/ Thanks all! N. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 01:37:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AF9116A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 01:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rambo.401.cx (rambo.401.cx [80.65.205.166]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E99243FB1 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 01:35:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Received: from 401.cx (malin.twenty4help.se [195.67.108.195]) by rambo.401.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G8URcx065546; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:30:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from listsub@401.cx) Message-ID: <3F66CA20.9040206@401.cx> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:30:24 +0200 From: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030723 Thunderbird/0.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nigel Weeks References: <003e01c37c25$7c57d130$020aa8c0@aims.private> In-Reply-To: <003e01c37c25$7c57d130$020aa8c0@aims.private> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: 'FreeBSD Advocacy' Subject: Re: Follow-up on the Mock-up X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:37:19 -0000 Nigel Weeks wrote: *snip* > > The mock-up has been updated to cater for all coments that I can address. > Please, if you can, send me more comments. > If this can get to an acceptable stage, who knows, anything might happen... > http://www.aims.net.au.nigel/bsdn/ > Where did you get that .nigel domain, I had no idea those existed? (sorry, couldnt resist. :)) I guess the correct URL would be http://www.aims.net.au/nigel/bsdn/ -- R From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 03:26:18 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC4DB16A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 03:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net (firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.247]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1161543FAF for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 03:26:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfinn.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.202.247] helo=mindspring.com) by firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19zD2E-0005Vw-00; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 03:26:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3F66E50E.4EDCB472@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 03:25:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michal Pasternak References: <000701c37b38$f2af0fd0$020aa8c0@aims.private> <20030915065729.GA38040@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a462e98fc4c063d4ef1be5d0e951986a73a7ce0e8f8d31aa3f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:26:18 -0000 Michal Pasternak wrote: > Nicole [Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 11:13:52PM -0700]: > > Personally I would love to see FreeBSD divide into Server/Workstation versions > > which would also then, create the techie/friendly different fronts along with > > it. Such as your aim is to provide. > > And what would you include in "Workstation" distribution? You already have > enough meta-packages to make installing graphics environments a piece of > cake. Do you have enough time (and webspace) to host such newbie-ISO > project? I am sure everyone will appreciate that. IMO: it doesn't matter what gets included. The Official Party Line(tm) is that FreeBSD is a server OS, so no matter what you put into it, The Keepers Of The Official Party Line are going to squawk that you can't use the trademark if you don't distribute "Disc 1" exactly as distributed by the FreeBSD We Are Not A Workstation OS, We Are A Server OS people, thus crippling your ability to do what you want to do usefully or effectively. Basically, it comes down to how willing you are to grind up a sacred cow or two to make hamburger. If you're willing to put in more energy to do it than they're willing to put in to stop you from doing it, you'll succeed. Maybe you can get Bob Bruce to preapprove your use of the trademark so they can't do anything legally. If he won't, well, there's always DragonflyBSD (renaming things does wonders for clearing up trademark issues)... -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 04:24:55 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7678716A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 04:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amsfep15-int.chello.nl (amsfep15-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.28]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A1043FA3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 04:24:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com ([213.46.142.207]) by amsfep15-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with ESMTP id <20030916112452.COAW6169.amsfep15-int.chello.nl@sitetronics.com>; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:24:52 +0200 Message-ID: <3F66F2BC.5040906@sitetronics.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:23:40 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030820 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Anderson References: <3F658048.5060304@401.cx> <20030915032820.T46787@fubar.adept.org> <3F65A83D.4030606@401.cx> <3F65B63E.1010205@centtech.com> In-Reply-To: <3F65B63E.1010205@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:24:55 -0000 Eric Anderson wrote: > So why not just make freebsd.com the "pretty, flashy, ooey gooey" > site, and freebsd.org the "technical, like-it-is" site? > > Sendmail does this, and I think it works out really well. > Eric I concur. --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 06:15:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C3DF16A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 06:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org (bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org [198.22.63.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18B5943F3F for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 06:15:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org) Received: from bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org (mwlucas@localhost.blackhelicopters.org [127.0.0.1])h8GDMqLw080275; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:22:52 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost)h8GDMqta080274; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:22:52 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:22:52 -0400 From: "Michael W. Lucas" To: Terry Lambert Message-ID: <20030916132252.GA80163@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> References: <000701c37b38$f2af0fd0$020aa8c0@aims.private> <20030915065729.GA38040@pasternak.w.lub.pl> <3F66E50E.4EDCB472@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F66E50E.4EDCB472@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.5 required=4.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Michal Pasternak Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:15:13 -0000 On Tue, Sep 16, 2003 at 03:25:18AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Maybe you can get Bob Bruce to preapprove your use of the > trademark so they can't do anything legally. Bob Bruce / FreeBSDMall doesn't own the trademark. Wind River does. And yes, there is copious discussion on getting the trademark into the FreeBSD Foundation's hands. ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@FreeBSD.org, mwlucas@BlackHelicopters.org Today's chance of throwing it all away to start a goat farm: 41.8% http://www.BlackHelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Absolute OpenBSD: http://www.AbsoluteOpenBSD.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 06:34:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366FA16A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 06:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amsfep15-int.chello.nl (amsfep15-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.28]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A833743FCB for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 06:34:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com ([213.46.142.207]) by amsfep15-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with ESMTP id <20030916133403.GGJM6169.amsfep15-int.chello.nl@sitetronics.com>; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 15:34:03 +0200 Message-ID: <3F671108.6010607@sitetronics.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 15:32:56 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030820 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael W. Lucas" References: <000701c37b38$f2af0fd0$020aa8c0@aims.private> <20030915065729.GA38040@pasternak.w.lub.pl> <3F66E50E.4EDCB472@mindspring.com> <20030916132252.GA80163@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> In-Reply-To: <20030916132252.GA80163@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Michal Pasternak Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:34:06 -0000 Michael W. Lucas wrote: >On Tue, Sep 16, 2003 at 03:25:18AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >>Maybe you can get Bob Bruce to preapprove your use of the >>trademark so they can't do anything legally. >> >> > >Bob Bruce / FreeBSDMall doesn't own the trademark. > >Wind River does. > >And yes, there is copious discussion on getting the trademark into the >FreeBSD Foundation's hands. > >==ml > I was under the impression that Wind River was going to transfer the trademark to FreeBSD Mall... --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 06:51:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B46B916A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 06:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org (bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org [198.22.63.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F309E43FDF for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 06:51:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org) Received: from bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org (mwlucas@localhost.blackhelicopters.org [127.0.0.1])h8GDwpLw080627; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:58:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost)h8GDwpaA080626; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:58:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:58:51 -0400 From: "Michael W. Lucas" To: "Devon H. O'Dell" Message-ID: <20030916135851.GA80611@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> References: <000701c37b38$f2af0fd0$020aa8c0@aims.private> <20030915065729.GA38040@pasternak.w.lub.pl> <3F66E50E.4EDCB472@mindspring.com> <20030916132252.GA80163@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> <3F671108.6010607@sitetronics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F671108.6010607@sitetronics.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.0 required=4.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Michal Pasternak Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:51:14 -0000 On Tue, Sep 16, 2003 at 03:32:56PM +0200, Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > I was under the impression that Wind River was going to transfer the > trademark to FreeBSD Mall... That was the old idea, but the Foundation is a more proper place for it. Now, of course, to drag it out of WR... ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@FreeBSD.org, mwlucas@BlackHelicopters.org Today's chance of throwing it all away to start a goat farm: 41.8% http://www.BlackHelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Absolute OpenBSD: http://www.AbsoluteOpenBSD.com/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 10:21:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DBFF16A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7198E43FBD for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:21:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02 ([157.226.230.209]:3607 helo=mvaexch02.acuson.com) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19zJWG-0003A3-6L; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:21:40 -0700 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:19:26 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-151.acuson.com ([157.226.46.151]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id SXCQYZXH; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:18:32 -0700 From: Johnson David To: Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:20:38 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <004101c37b26$de886400$020aa8c0@aims.private> <20030915115853.4836bd86.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> <3F66C262.2050108@401.cx> In-Reply-To: <3F66C262.2050108@401.cx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309161020.38885.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19zJWG-0003A3-6L*0XJzx9Q6bnQ* X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:21:49 -0000 On Tuesday 16 September 2003 12:57 am, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: > If you find redhat's site badly laid out, then we obviously have a > different way of judging things. I find it good looking, easy to > navigate and well thought out. Too bad their product sucks though. I haven't been to the Redhat site in a couple of years. I'm going there right now. As user who wants to use the site, as opposed to a designer looking to critique it. My goal is to find the Redhat Linux distribution for home use as either an ISO image or a page to order a cheap box... Front page: enterprise, enterprise, enterprise, whitepapers, enterprise. Nothing obvious anywhere about getting the software. I click on the tiny "software" button at the top. Software Subscriptions: enterprise, enterprise, enterprise, etc. The only thing relevant to me needs is "community products" which is a link to the very bottom of the page, which a link to "Red Hat Linux 9". I'm getting closer, I can feel it. Red Hat Linux: "Activate your product". What? Are they trying to make Windows users feel at home or something? There's a link to Redhat Linux 9 for 39$ There's also a link to "download now". Download Now: Well, I have to buy a subscription in order to download, but the information I need is there. Summary: Four pages to find what I need. Is that good or bad? I'm not sure, but if I was just browsing, after the second page of "enterprise" links, I might have gone elsewhere, thinking that Redhat wasn't for SOHO or personal use. The actual layout looks good, but is still confusing to use. The top "header" of the front page contains twelve buttons, not counting the search button. That's standard for commercial websites, but it's still not great. I would have to give the overall site a B- from a user's perspective. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 12:30:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC3CC16A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lilzmailfe02.liwest.at (lilzmailfe02.liwest.at [212.33.55.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F369643FAF for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:30:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dgw@liwest.at) Received: from cm58-27.liwest.at ([212.33.58.27]) by lilzmailfe02.liwest.at with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19zLVQ-0001qP-Bu; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:28:57 +0200 From: Daniela To: Nicole , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:27:08 +0000 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309162127.08713.dgw@liwest.at> Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:30:16 -0000 On Monday 15 September 2003 06:13, Nicole wrote: > Personally I would love to see FreeBSD divide into Server/Workstation > versions which would also then, create the techie/friendly different fronts > along with it. Such as your aim is to provide. I'd rather create a bunch of configuration scripts. They could be called from sysinstall to configure the machine as a server/workstation/desktop/whatever. FreeBSD can be anything, it just depends on how you configure it. Just my $0.02. Daniela From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 12:50:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B48E16A4C2 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web10101.mail.yahoo.com (web10101.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.51]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1762843F3F for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:50:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from twigles@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030916195022.54089.qmail@web10101.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.5.49.41] by web10101.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:50:22 PDT Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:50:22 -0700 (PDT) From: twig les To: Daniela , Nicole , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200309162127.08713.dgw@liwest.at> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:50:23 -0000 I thought FreeBSD *did* have a client setup called Darwin. ;-) --- Daniela wrote: > On Monday 15 September 2003 06:13, Nicole wrote: > > Personally I would love to see FreeBSD divide into > Server/Workstation > > versions which would also then, create the techie/friendly > different fronts > > along with it. Such as your aim is to provide. > > > I'd rather create a bunch of configuration scripts. They could > be called from > sysinstall to configure the machine as a > server/workstation/desktop/whatever. > > FreeBSD can be anything, it just depends on how you configure > it. > > Just my $0.02. > > Daniela > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" ===== ----------------------------------------------------------- Emo is what happens when the glee club goes punk. ----------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 13:12:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59FA716A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao05.cox.net (lakemtao05.cox.net [68.1.17.116]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29FAC43FB1 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:12:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com) Received: from fortytwo ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao05.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20030916201204.LIHE10592.lakemtao05.cox.net@fortytwo>; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:12:04 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 15:11:03 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" Message-Id: <20030916151103.699b7e95.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <3F66C262.2050108@401.cx> References: <004101c37b26$de886400$020aa8c0@aims.private> <200309142333.48902.michael@gargantuan.com> <3F6575AE.3040805@401.cx> <20030915115853.4836bd86.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> <3F66C262.2050108@401.cx> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: michael@gargantuan.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:12:10 -0000 On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:57:22 +0200 "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" wrote: > Vulpes Velox wrote: > > On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:17:50 +0200 > > "Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg" wrote: > > > > > >>Michael W. Oliver wrote: > >> > >>>+--- On Sunday, September 14, 2003 21:15 --- > >>>| Nigel Weeks proclaimed: > >> > >>*snipping some text* > >>Being highly functional and organized does not mean it cant look > >>good. I agree that the freebsd.org website is a great resource for > >>those that are already using BSD, but unfortunally I dont think it > >>helps attracting new users. Its probably the other way around, the > >>site may very well scare some potential BSD users away to more > >>proffesional looking sites, ie Red Hat's. > > > > > > This is getting bloody annoying... wtf do you mean by proffesional? I have > > yet to see what is so proffesional about redhat's site. It is badly laid out > > at best. > > By proffesional I mean a site that does not look like something a 16 > year old has made in dreamweaver. No offense to the people behind > freebsd.org, you are doing a hell of a job and you deserve all the > credits for it, but still the page could look a lot better. > If you find redhat's site badly laid out, then we obviously have a > different way of judging things. I find it good looking, easy to > navigate and well thought out. Too bad their product sucks though. What is so bloody horrible about the FreeBSD site? It is much more proffesional than redhat's site. The two side parts are great. The only thing that could stand to be redone is the center section. It providing a bit more info and ect could be nice. Yes we do have a different way of judging things. I regard proffesional as lacking glib or having little glib. Looks are entirely pointless. Info are the only things that matter. The ability to effectively convey that information is being proffesional, not throwing in a bunch of glib and confusacating the entire issue. There are many ways of laying stuff out. The template redhat borrows is just one, But in the case of redhat it is just horrible implemented. I have personally yet to see how layout choices factors into proffessionalism. As long as it provides the info and ect and little or no glib, then it is cool and proffessional. > > > > Yes, the FreeBSD site could possibly be rearranged to look friendlier to new > > comers, but I seriously doubt copying redhat would help. Glib does not equal > > proffesionalism, at best it is very unproffesional and childish. > > I have never said that we should copy redhat, I used it merely as an > example. And how the hell did glib get into this? Glib came into this when you mentioned redhat's site. It is glib and only glib. With very little of any actual value. The navigation is badly laid out. > >>>Perhaps your site can fill the void for those who aren't attracted to the > >>>stock FreeBSD site. > >>> > >>>| I'm just trying to help by coming up with ideas, instead of shooting down > >>>| others,and complaining all the time. > >>>| > >>>| The sooner FreeBSD takes on a professional image, the sooner it'll get > >>>| accepted and treated as a professional solution. > >>>| > >>>| Yes, it's wrong, but it's how life is. > >>> > >>>What is truly wrong are people who redefine their own world to match what > >>>they think others want to see, rather than doing what they themselves > >>>believe to be right. > >> > >>What I believe is right, is giving people what they want. If people > >>want something else then what I want, then who is right? > >> > >>Why not a compromise? Make the first page and a few of the pages > >>directly below it more "commercial" looking. A nice layout with just > >>the basics, explaining what FreeBSD is and where to get it. The > >>rest, ie the handbook, release information etc etc, can look exactly > >>like it does now. If you are looking in those sections, you are > >>probably a BSD user already anyway. > >> > >> > >>>Like it or not, the world is what we (you, me, everyone) make it, not what > >>>others tell us it is. > >> > >>The world is not what you and me make it, its what everyone makes > >>it. Unfortunally, you and me are a very small part of everyone, so > >>we can only change that much. > > > > > > No, the world is exactly how you make it. If you don't step up to challenges > > then things don't change. If you let idiots have their way with out doing > > any thing about them, then they win. > > My experience is that the number of idiots in the world outnumbers > the amount of non-idiots by 10 to 1, atleast. If I challenged > everything I thought was wrong without first considering other > peoples opinion, I would be a minority forcing my will against a > majority, and I really dont like that thought. "I want it this way, > who cares what the people want." > I have accepted that not everyone is like me, therefor I try to > adapt myself. I am glad not every one is like me, that would be boring. The numbers don't matter, in this case. A large chunk of them lack the ability for rational thought. Thus they relly on others to make their choices for them. That is what marketing execs are for. To help them make decisions to buy inferior products. One should not let themselves be manipulated by the majority just because they think they are right. For the most part right and wrong are just a illusion. Let others live in peace when they let one live in peace, but when they don't, one should take action and put it to a end. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 13:41:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 286AC16A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amsfep13-int.chello.nl (amsfep13-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 707EB43FB1 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:41:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com ([213.46.142.207]) by amsfep13-int.chello.nl ESMTP <20030916204146.CTFF16676.amsfep13-int.chello.nl@sitetronics.com>; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 22:41:46 +0200 Message-ID: <3F677547.4090007@sitetronics.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 22:40:39 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030820 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vulpes Velox References: <004101c37b26$de886400$020aa8c0@aims.private> <200309142333.48902.michael@gargantuan.com> <3F6575AE.3040805@401.cx> <20030915115853.4836bd86.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> <3F66C262.2050108@401.cx> <20030916151103.699b7e95.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <20030916151103.699b7e95.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: michael@gargantuan.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:41:49 -0000 >What is so bloody horrible about the FreeBSD site? It is much more proffesional >than redhat's site. The two side parts are great. The only thing that could >stand to be redone is the center section. It providing a bit more info and ect >could be nice. > >Yes we do have a different way of judging things. I regard proffesional as >lacking glib or having little glib. Looks are entirely pointless. Info >are the only things that matter. The ability to effectively convey that >information is being proffesional, not throwing in a bunch of glib and >confusacating the entire issue. > >There are many ways of laying stuff out. The template redhat borrows is just >one, But in the case of redhat it is just horrible implemented. I have >personally yet to see how layout choices factors into proffessionalism. As long >as it provides the info and ect and little or no glib, then it is cool and >proffessional. > > > What in God's name does glib have to do with websites or professionalism? What in God's name is "confusacating"? Do you know what glib is? Ack! > >Glib came into this when you mentioned redhat's site. It is glib and only glib. >With very little of any actual value. The navigation is badly laid out. > > glib is a C library containing several routines to make things like string handling much easier. It has nothing to do with web sites, design, or layouts (or professionalism). Many 'professional' applications utilize glib. End of glib discussion, mmmkay? >I am glad not every one is like me, that would be boring. The numbers don't >matter, in this case. A large chunk of them lack the ability for rational >thought. Thus they relly on others to make their choices for them. That is what >marketing execs are for. To help them make decisions to buy inferior products. >One should not let themselves be manipulated by the majority just because they >think they are right. For the most part right and wrong are just a illusion. Let >others live in peace when they let one live in peace, but when they don't, one >should take action and put it to a end. > Here, I have a better idea. Why don't the people that want to make a 'more professional' site (which I interpret as meaning one aimed at corporations and enterprises and such) make that and why don't you stay out of it? You seem to be throwing a lot of flames and 'confuscating' (heh) a lot of things. Like glib and web design/development. I personally don't appreciate seeing this kind of stuff, even when it's not directed towards me. I do agree that FreeBSD could benefit from a more 'enterprise-targeted' site (although, as I said earlier, Sun's website is 'enterprise-targeted' and is also quite simple). It doesn't have to be really busy or even something totally different. All the same, a site targeted at corporations is not a bad idea. Somebody just has to take initiative to: a) Make it b) take criticism So why don't we all just lay down the flaming sword and start working together instead of against each other? Or have I been hugging too many trees lately? --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 13:46:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B5016A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web10101.mail.yahoo.com (web10101.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.51]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1931843F93 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:46:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from twigles@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030916204622.63343.qmail@web10101.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.5.49.41] by web10101.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:46:22 PDT Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:46:22 -0700 (PDT) From: twig les To: "Devon H. O'Dell" , Vulpes Velox In-Reply-To: <3F677547.4090007@sitetronics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: michael@gargantuan.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:46:24 -0000 > What in God's name does glib have to do with websites or > professionalism? What in God's name is "confusacating"? Do you > know what > glib is? Ack! Hahaha, glib is also an adjective meaning something like "slick". It's not just a library. The other word confusacates me. ===== ----------------------------------------------------------- Emo is what happens when the glee club goes punk. ----------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 14:04:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DFCA16A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.WPI.EDU (mail1.WPI.EDU [130.215.36.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB2443FDD for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:04:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cash@h50.net) Received: from mcafee.wpi.edu (mcafee.WPI.EDU [130.215.36.86]) h8GL4Ph0001174; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:04:25 -0400 Received: from smtp.WPI.EDU(130.215.36.186) by mcafee.wpi.edu via csmap id 17378; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [130.215.245.176] (h5mobile.res.WPI.NET [130.215.245.176]) h8GL4AHp023766; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:04:10 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:04:10 -0400 From: Benjamin Polidore To: "Devon H. O'Dell" , Vulpes Velox Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3F677547.4090007@sitetronics.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:04:27 -0000 On 9/16/03 4:40 PM, "Devon H. O'Dell" wrote: > >> What is so bloody horrible about the FreeBSD site? It is much more >> proffesional >> than redhat's site. The two side parts are great. The only thing that could >> stand to be redone is the center section. It providing a bit more info and >> ect >> could be nice. >> >> Yes we do have a different way of judging things. I regard proffesional as >> lacking glib or having little glib. Looks are entirely pointless. Info >> are the only things that matter. The ability to effectively convey that >> information is being proffesional, not throwing in a bunch of glib and >> confusacating the entire issue. >> >> There are many ways of laying stuff out. The template redhat borrows is just >> one, But in the case of redhat it is just horrible implemented. I have >> personally yet to see how layout choices factors into proffessionalism. As >> long >> as it provides the info and ect and little or no glib, then it is cool and >> proffessional. >> >> >> > What in God's name does glib have to do with websites or > professionalism? What in God's name is "confusacating"? Do you know what > glib is? Ack! > >> >> Glib came into this when you mentioned redhat's site. It is glib and only >> glib. >> With very little of any actual value. The navigation is badly laid out. >> >> > glib is a C library containing several routines to make things like > string handling much easier. It has nothing to do with web sites, > design, or layouts (or professionalism). Many 'professional' > applications utilize glib. End of glib discussion, mmmkay? > >> I am glad not every one is like me, that would be boring. The numbers don't >> matter, in this case. A large chunk of them lack the ability for rational >> thought. Thus they relly on others to make their choices for them. That is >> what >> marketing execs are for. To help them make decisions to buy inferior >> products. >> One should not let themselves be manipulated by the majority just because >> they >> think they are right. For the most part right and wrong are just a illusion. >> Let >> others live in peace when they let one live in peace, but when they don't, >> one >> should take action and put it to a end. >> > Here, I have a better idea. Why don't the people that want to make a > 'more professional' site (which I interpret as meaning one aimed at > corporations and enterprises and such) make that and why don't you stay > out of it? You seem to be throwing a lot of flames and 'confuscating' > (heh) a lot of things. Like glib and web design/development. I > personally don't appreciate seeing this kind of stuff, even when it's > not directed towards me. > > I do agree that FreeBSD could benefit from a more 'enterprise-targeted' > site (although, as I said earlier, Sun's website is > 'enterprise-targeted' and is also quite simple). It doesn't have to be > really busy or even something totally different. All the same, a site > targeted at corporations is not a bad idea. Somebody just has to take > initiative to: > > a) Make it > b) take criticism > > So why don't we all just lay down the flaming sword and start working > together instead of against each other? Or have I been hugging too many > trees lately? > > --Devon > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > Yet again, this list is out of control. I think the argument most people are trying to make is that FreeBSD needs a more MODERN site, not a more "professional" site whatever that means. The format of the site hasn't changed in YEARS, and in this time, there have been many advances in web technology. In order to represent FreeBSD as a modern operating system, its web site should make use of at least some of these technologies. Of course the site shouldn't be gaudy or glib; it should be modern looking and appealing to first time visitors while maintaining its practicality to regular users. To the purists, I would say that a modern site can actually be MORE efficient; that is the purpose of PHP and the like. Things like collapsible menus and other dynamic content can make browsing a site a lot easier if done well. FreeBSD needs a new look. -BP From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 14:07:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9CCC16A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amsfep16-int.chello.nl (amsfep16-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC2B43F75 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:07:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com ([213.46.142.207]) by amsfep16-int.chello.nl ESMTP <20030916210739.SVEC24754.amsfep16-int.chello.nl@sitetronics.com>; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 23:07:39 +0200 Message-ID: <3F677B58.1000708@sitetronics.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 23:06:32 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030820 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: twig les References: <20030916204622.63343.qmail@web10101.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030916204622.63343.qmail@web10101.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: michael@gargantuan.com cc: Vulpes Velox Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:07:42 -0000 twig les wrote: >>What in God's name does glib have to do with websites or >>professionalism? What in God's name is "confusacating"? Do you >>know what >>glib is? Ack! >> >> > >Hahaha, glib is also an adjective meaning something like >"slick". It's not just a library. The other word confusacates me. > >===== >----------------------------------------------------------- >Emo is what happens when the glee club goes punk. >----------------------------------------------------------- > > Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition disagrees. Main Entry: *glib* Pronunciation Guide Pronunciation: glib Function: /adjective/ Inflected Form(s): *glib·ber*; *glib·best* Etymology: probably modification of Low German /glibberig/ slippery Date: 1584 *1 a* *:* marked by ease and informality *: NONCHALANT * *b* *:* showing little forethought or preparation *: OFFHAND * *c* *:* lacking depth and substance *: SUPERFICIAL * *2* /archaic/ *: SMOOTH , SLIPPERY * *3* *:* marked by ease and fluency in speaking or writing often to the point of being insincere or deceitful - *glib·ly* /adverb/ - *glib·ness* /noun/ While this definition may describe RedHat's site (haha), I don't think it fits in the context. Sure 'slick' can have that connotation, but not when it's overused in that context. I also admit that I forgot that 'glib' was a valid word. ;) Anyway, that's not my point. Point is that I think that the people who say FreeBSD needs a face lift of sorts are right. But I also think the current page does its job well. So why don't people stop discussing and start doing? :-D --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 14:11:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C7E16A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from otter3.centtech.com (moat3.centtech.com [207.200.51.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD4F43F85 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:11:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Received: from centtech.com (neutrino.centtech.com [204.177.173.28]) by otter3.centtech.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h8GLBO6T059244 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:11:24 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from anderson@centtech.com) Message-ID: <3F677C76.8040905@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:11:18 -0500 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20030916204622.63343.qmail@web10101.mail.yahoo.com> <3F677B58.1000708@sitetronics.com> In-Reply-To: <3F677B58.1000708@sitetronics.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:11:26 -0000 This whole thread can move to -chat now (please?). Oh, and keep in mind you CAN "snip" the fwd's down to a reasonable size. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology All generalizations are false, including this one. ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 14:19:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E7416A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web10108.mail.yahoo.com (web10108.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.58]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 151C843F75 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:19:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from twigles@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030916211906.4151.qmail@web10108.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.5.49.41] by web10108.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:19:06 PDT Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:19:06 -0700 (PDT) From: twig les To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: freebsd lists popular in the 2002 SAGE/SANS salary survey X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:19:07 -0000 Just noticed that FreeBSD (generic, doesn't say which) lists are number 11 on the most popular lists chart. Since this is arguably a more sophisticated crowd I'm happy. I participated (hence the sophistication) and named -security. Nothing spectacular, just neat. ===== ----------------------------------------------------------- Emo is what happens when the glee club goes punk. ----------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 14:23:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E3C716A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao07.cox.net (lakemtao07.cox.net [68.1.17.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 454BF43FDD for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:23:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com) Received: from fortytwo ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao07.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20030916212312.ONET15705.lakemtao07.cox.net@fortytwo>; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:23:12 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:22:12 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: "Devon H. O'Dell" Message-Id: <20030916162212.2df48e1a.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <3F677547.4090007@sitetronics.com> References: <004101c37b26$de886400$020aa8c0@aims.private> <200309142333.48902.michael@gargantuan.com> <3F6575AE.3040805@401.cx> <20030915115853.4836bd86.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> <3F66C262.2050108@401.cx> <20030916151103.699b7e95.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> <3F677547.4090007@sitetronics.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: michael@gargantuan.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:23:15 -0000 On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 22:40:39 +0200 "Devon H. O'Dell" wrote: > > >What is so bloody horrible about the FreeBSD site? It is much more > >proffesional than redhat's site. The two side parts are great. The only thing > >that could stand to be redone is the center section. It providing a bit more > >info and ect could be nice. > > > >Yes we do have a different way of judging things. I regard proffesional as > >lacking glib or having little glib. Looks are entirely pointless. Info > >are the only things that matter. The ability to effectively convey that > >information is being proffesional, not throwing in a bunch of glib and > >confusacating the entire issue. > > > >There are many ways of laying stuff out. The template redhat borrows is just > >one, But in the case of redhat it is just horrible implemented. I have > >personally yet to see how layout choices factors into proffessionalism. As > >long as it provides the info and ect and little or no glib, then it is cool > >and proffessional. > > > > > > > What in God's name does glib have to do with websites or > professionalism? What in God's name is "confusacating"? Do you know what > glib is? Ack! glib besides being a library, is also word meaning lacking of depth of substance. > > > >Glib came into this when you mentioned redhat's site. It is glib and only > >glib. With very little of any actual value. The navigation is badly laid out. > > > > > glib is a C library containing several routines to make things like > string handling much easier. It has nothing to do with web sites, > design, or layouts (or professionalism). Many 'professional' > applications utilize glib. End of glib discussion, mmmkay? See above. > >I am glad not every one is like me, that would be boring. The numbers don't > >matter, in this case. A large chunk of them lack the ability for rational > >thought. Thus they relly on others to make their choices for them. That is > >what marketing execs are for. To help them make decisions to buy inferior > >products. One should not let themselves be manipulated by the majority just > >because they think they are right. For the most part right and wrong are just > >a illusion. Let others live in peace when they let one live in peace, but > >when they don't, one should take action and put it to a end. > > Here, I have a better idea. Why don't the people that want to make a > 'more professional' site (which I interpret as meaning one aimed at > corporations and enterprises and such) make that and why don't you stay > out of it? You seem to be throwing a lot of flames and 'confuscating' > (heh) a lot of things. Like glib and web design/development. I > personally don't appreciate seeing this kind of stuff, even when it's > not directed towards me. I never said they should not go and create a site seperate from freebsd.org that does not appeal MBA/management/zombies/whatever... > I do agree that FreeBSD could benefit from a more 'enterprise-targeted' > site (although, as I said earlier, Sun's website is > 'enterprise-targeted' and is also quite simple). It doesn't have to be > really busy or even something totally different. All the same, a site > targeted at corporations is not a bad idea. Somebody just has to take > initiative to: I agree FreeBSD would benefit from more large bussiness using it. If you would bother checking some of my earlier posts, you will see I have never come out against that ideas of creating site that appeals to those that refuse to judge things be specs and the likes. I just came out against taking a glibish approach to freebsd.org. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 14:27:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7BB316A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao06.cox.net (lakemtao06.cox.net [68.1.17.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C155343FBD for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:27:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com) Received: from fortytwo ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao06.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20030916212701.NKHD4662.lakemtao06.cox.net@fortytwo>; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:27:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:26:02 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: Benjamin Polidore Message-Id: <20030916162602.74b98725.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: References: <3F677547.4090007@sitetronics.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Vulpes Velox Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:27:05 -0000 On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:04:10 -0400 Benjamin Polidore wrote: > Yet again, this list is out of control. > > I think the argument most people are trying to make is that FreeBSD needs a > more MODERN site, not a more "professional" site whatever that means. > > The format of the site hasn't changed in YEARS, and in this time, there have > been many advances in web technology. In order to represent FreeBSD as a > modern operating system, its web site should make use of at least some of > these technologies. Of course the site shouldn't be gaudy or glib; it > should be modern looking and appealing to first time visitors while > maintaining its practicality to regular users. Yeah, I think giving it a occasional change could be good. I personally think it would be interesting to see better use made of the center sections... devoted to news and/or recent changes and the like. As well as having a short introduction. > To the purists, I would say that a modern site can actually be MORE > efficient; that is the purpose of PHP and the like. Things like collapsible > menus and other dynamic content can make browsing a site a lot easier if > done well. > > FreeBSD needs a new look. Cool. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 17:48:50 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B276216A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fubar.adept.org (fubar.adept.org [63.147.172.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ED3F43F85 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:48:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@adept.org) Received: by fubar.adept.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 132991524D; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fubar.adept.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123A81524B for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:48:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hoskins To: advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030916173857.X88574@fubar.adept.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 00:48:50 -0000 On Tue, 16 Sep 2003, Benjamin Polidore wrote: > Yet again, this list is out of control. go figure. ;) > I think the argument most people are trying to make is that FreeBSD needs a > more MODERN site, not a more "professional" site whatever that means. cool... i'm not opposed, and i'm sure no one (including the people with the power to make it actually happen) would be if it was done well. to the original poster -- it's not good to state your case by belittling the current site while failing to provide anything better. i'm not saying you can't be creative, i didn't say a new site couldn't be well implemented, and i wouldn't be opposed to the .org/.com split if that's really decided to be for the best. however, expect criticism if you suggest replacing something and can't seem to do better. my original point still holds... even if we go the split .com/.org direction, it would be nice if someone got (friends, coworkers, etc.) volunteers with real web experience to do the work. we have a web team now, but the last time i communicated with members of the team (quite awhile now), everyone was overworked and underpaid. if someone out there could get some volunteer time donated to the project, that'd probably go a long way... and i mean real web designers that are willing and able to look at the current site, see how things are done, understand why, etc. and suggest/implement/maintain improvements. > The format of the site hasn't changed in YEARS, and in this time, there have > been many advances in web technology. In order to represent FreeBSD as a > modern operating system, its web site should make use of at least some of > these technologies. Of course the site shouldn't be gaudy or glib; it > should be modern looking and appealing to first time visitors while > maintaining its practicality to regular users. as others have pointed out, the RH example was quite bad. despite looking "modern" their site is pretty useless. the reason some people objected so loudly (self certainly included), was that the original post seemed to hold RH's site in high esteem... ick. > To the purists, I would say that a modern site can actually be MORE > efficient; that is the purpose of PHP and the like. Things like collapsible > menus and other dynamic content can make browsing a site a lot easier if > done well. no question. > FreeBSD needs a new look. maybe. majority rules. -mrh -- From: "Spam Catcher" To: spam-catcher@adept.org Do NOT send email to the address listed above or you will be added to a blacklist! From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 18:56:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9148416A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 18:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C74AB43F3F for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 18:56:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 21279 invoked by uid 1001); 17 Sep 2003 01:54:25 -0000 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 03:54:24 +0200 From: Michal Pasternak To: Mike Hoskins Message-ID: <20030917015424.GA18369@pasternak.w.lub.pl> References: <20030916173857.X88574@fubar.adept.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030916173857.X88574@fubar.adept.org> cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 01:56:24 -0000 Mike Hoskins [Tue, Sep 16, 2003 at 05:48:50PM -0700]: [...] > you can't be creative, i didn't say a new site couldn't be well > implemented, and i wouldn't be opposed to the .org/.com split if that's Talking about splits, this one is done really well IMHO: http://gnome.org and http://gnomedesktop.org . > awhile now), everyone was overworked and underpaid. if someone out there > could get some volunteer time donated to the project, that'd probably go a ... and if someone can't donate time because of lack of knowledge, s/he can still donate funds or hire someone - don't forget about this possibility. -- Michal Pasternak :: http://pasternak.w.lub.pl Noise to meet you. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 20:22:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A80C916A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postoffice.e-easy.com.au (eth0.lnk.e-easy.com.au [203.31.73.253]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7942643FBF for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:22:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nigel@e-easy.com.au) Received: from postoffice.aims.com.au (nts-ts1.aims.private [192.168.10.2]) by postoffice.e-easy.com.au with ESMTP id h8H3Lqcw024858 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:21:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from nigel@e-easy.com.au) Received: from ntsts1 by aims.com.au (aims.com.au) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.9.0a.R) with ESMTP id 59-md50000000026.tmp for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:12:59 +1000 From: "Nigel Weeks" To: "FreeBSD Advocacy (E-mail)" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:12:58 +1000 Message-ID: <003101c37cc9$9930f8a0$020aa8c0@aims.private> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 In-Reply-To: <20030916173857.X88574@fubar.adept.org> X-Spam-Processed: aims.com.au, Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:12:59 +1000 (not processed: spam filter disabled) X-Return-Path: nigel@e-easy.com.au X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: advocacy@freebsd.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=4.5 tests=AWL,BAYES_20,IN_REP_TO version=2.55 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Subject: RE: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 03:22:04 -0000 ...expect criticism if you > suggest replacing something and can't seem to do better. I am the original poster, and that's not what I said. I'm quite disgusted at how this thread has ended up. I'm sorry for ever having the idea. I never said the existing freebsd site was bad. In fact, I made sure I said it clearly,and often, that it's great, it serves it's purpose excellently, and I do not wish to replace it. I did, however, say it's 'A HARD SELL' to non-technical, upper-management people, who are used to flashy, whizz-bang sites. An Alternative is what I had in mind, NOT A REPLACEMENT!!! An alternative site tailored for those who need it, and specially set up so you could point people who'd never heard of FreeBSD to it,with catchy graphics(not overdone), and attractive layouts, so it feels like every other high-end offering site out there. I had a go. I wish I hadn't. Maybe FreeBSD will stay the way it is, forever. Thread Over. N. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Sep 16 22:57:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0711816A4B3 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 22:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43FBB43FBF for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 22:57:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfm4d.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.216.141] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19zVJA-0006gl-00; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 22:56:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3F67F76F.399A0D9F@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 22:55:59 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: twig les References: <20030916195022.54089.qmail@web10101.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a465bd2425b8f1c711a1822e7b24f8f2302601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 05:57:04 -0000 twig les wrote: > I thought FreeBSD *did* have a client setup called Darwin. ;-) FWIW: FreeBSD 4.x: ~2M lines of code (including kernel modules) MacOS X: ~6M lines of code (not including kexts) It takes a lot of work to make a usable desktop OS. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 06:15:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D9AB16A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 06:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web40402.mail.yahoo.com (web40402.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.99]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D435F43F3F for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 06:15:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from catlord17@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030917131516.81118.qmail@web40402.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.75.82.135] by web40402.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 06:15:16 PDT Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 06:15:16 -0700 (PDT) From: RexFelis To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: Re: FreeBSD Revamped Look 'n' feel: Feedback appreciated! X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:15:17 -0000 >I think the argument most people are trying to >make is that FreeBSD >needs a >more MODERN site, not a more "professional" site >whatever that means. >The format of the site hasn't changed in YEARS, >and in this time, there >have >been many advances in web technology. In order >to represent FreeBSD as >a >modern operating system, its web site should >make use of at least some >of >these technologies. Of course the site >shouldn't be gaudy or glib; it >should be modern looking and appealing to first >time visitors while >maintaining its practicality to regular users. >To the purists, I would say that a modern site >can actually be MORE >efficient; that is the purpose of PHP and the >like. Things like >collapsible >menus and other dynamic content can make >browsing a site a lot easier >if >done well. > >FreeBSD needs a new look. > >-BP I will have to respectfully disagree. One of the things I enjoy is "coming home" to the simple, uncomplicatedness of the current FreeBSD website. It's to the point that you start getting lost on other websites these days, even the ones designed "for the average computer user" because they simply try to put too much in too small a space and they try to get too fancy. With freebsd.org, I can show up, see what's new, and access what I need with zero confusion or getting lost. It's simple, uncomplicated, and it's not too busy. I like that. -Shannon __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 07:21:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E63E16A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu (msx.upmc.edu [128.147.18.40]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C6843FCB for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:21:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from personrp@ccbh.com) Received: by 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:21:48 -0400 Message-ID: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B41E80F@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> From: "Person, Roderick" To: 'Terry Lambert' , twig les Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:21:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:21:52 -0000 -----Original Message----- >From: Terry Lambert [mailto:tlambert2@mindspring.com] >Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 1:56 AM >twig les wrote: >> I thought FreeBSD *did* have a client setup called Darwin. ;-) > >FWIW: > > FreeBSD 4.x: ~2M lines of code (including kernel modules) > MacOS X: ~6M lines of code (not including kexts) > >It takes a lot of work to make a usable desktop OS. But, isn't the majority of the additional lines dealing with the fancy graphics stuff, what is it called cocoa/liguid/carbon or what ever? Roderick Person Programmer personrp@ccbh.com http://www.ccbh.com Roderick Person Programmer (412)454-2616 personrp@ccbh.com http://www.ccbh.com "History doesn't have to repeat itself forever, though; there's no reason you can't replace the Makefile...." -- Terry Lambert from FreeBSD-Chat List..... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 09:45:30 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6EEA16A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao06.cox.net (lakemtao06.cox.net [68.1.17.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93ADD43F75 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:45:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitsune@gmx.co.uk) Received: from fortytwo ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao06.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20030917164529.WLBU4662.lakemtao06.cox.net@fortytwo>; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:45:29 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:44:28 -0500 From: kitsune To: "Person, Roderick" Message-Id: <20030917114428.3dc4946e.kitsune@gmx.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B41E80F@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B41E80F@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:45:31 -0000 On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:21:38 -0400 "Person, Roderick" wrote: > -----Original Message----- > >From: Terry Lambert [mailto:tlambert2@mindspring.com] > >Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 1:56 AM > > >twig les wrote: > >> I thought FreeBSD *did* have a client setup called Darwin. ;-) > > > >FWIW: > > > > FreeBSD 4.x: ~2M lines of code (including kernel modules) > > MacOS X: ~6M lines of code (not including kexts) > > > >It takes a lot of work to make a usable desktop OS. > > But, isn't the majority of the additional lines dealing with the fancy > graphics stuff, what is it called cocoa/liguid/carbon or what ever? Yeah, but in this case that is the job of X and the toolkits and/or WMs that uses X. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 09:52:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EA2316A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms-dienst.rz.rwth-aachen.de (ms-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.130]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3BF43F75 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:52:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@unixpages.org) Received: from r220-1 (r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.31]) by ms-dienst.rz.rwth-aachen.de (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLD007JAAGQMH@ms-dienst.rz.rwth-aachen.de> for advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:43:38 +0200 (MEST) Received: from relay.RWTH-Aachen.DE ([134.130.3.1]) by r220-1 (MailMonitor for SMTP v1.2.2 ) ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:43:37 +0200 (MEST) Received: from haakonia.hitnet.rwth-aachen.de (daemon@haakonia.hitnet.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.181.92]) h8HGhbBC029702 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:43:37 +0200 (MEST) Received: from gondor.middleearth (gondor.middleearth [192.168.1.42]) by haakonia.hitnet.rwth-aachen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC062C for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:43:37 +0000 (GMT) Received: by gondor.middleearth (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 182ED44FD; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:43:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:43:35 +0200 From: Christian Brueffer To: advocacy@freebsd.org Message-id: <20030917164335.GB24746@unixpages.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary=+pHx0qQiF2pBVqBT; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.1-CURRENT X-PGP-Key: http://people.freebsd.org/~brueffer/brueffer.key.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: A5C8 2099 19FF AACA F41B B29B 6C76 178C A0ED 982D Subject: Linux Kongress, Germany X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:52:09 -0000 --+pHx0qQiF2pBVqBT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, there will be a joint BSD booth at the Linux Kongress in Saarbr=FCcken, Germany from 14-16 October. If you're interested in helping out, please subscribe to the bsd-events list at majordomo@unix-ag.uni-kl.de . - Christian --=20 Christian Brueffer chris@unixpages.org brueffer@FreeBSD.org GPG Key: http://people.freebsd.org/~brueffer/brueffer.key.asc GPG Fingerprint: A5C8 2099 19FF AACA F41B B29B 6C76 178C A0ED 982D --+pHx0qQiF2pBVqBT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/aI83bHYXjKDtmC0RAk02AKDo3Vqa48n1nHFCft7wohWhaucgmQCdGCS0 hbqjWgAq88Pc+weKEQEiC2Y= =47j6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --+pHx0qQiF2pBVqBT-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 09:56:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A324B16A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu (1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu [128.147.18.40]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB8CC43F75 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:56:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from personrp@ccbh.com) Received: by 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:56:25 -0400 Message-ID: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4C@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> From: "Person, Roderick" To: 'kitsune' Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:56:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:56:26 -0000 -----Original Message----- >From: kitsune [mailto:kitsune@gmx.co.uk] > >> FreeBSD 4.x: ~2M lines of code (including kernel modules) > >> MacOS X: ~6M lines of code (not including kexts) > >> >> >It takes a lot of work to make a usable desktop OS. >> >> But, isn't the majority of the additional lines dealing with the fancy >> graphics stuff, what is it called cocoa/liguid/carbon or what ever? > >Yeah, but in this case that is the job of X and the toolkits and/or WMs that >uses X. So if we combine X with FreeBSD we've got a desktop OS :) Roderick Person Programmer personrp@ccbh.com http://www.ccbh.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 10:01:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C21916A4C1 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amsfep12-int.chello.nl (amsfep12-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B53843FB1 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:01:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com ([213.46.142.207]) by amsfep12-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with ESMTP id <20030917170124.TPBY2869.amsfep12-int.chello.nl@sitetronics.com>; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:01:24 +0200 Message-ID: <3F68931B.10405@sitetronics.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:00:11 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030820 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Person, Roderick" References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4C@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> In-Reply-To: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4C@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: 'kitsune' Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:01:28 -0000 Hell, we can do what everyone else has been doing for a while. Come up with a catchy name, file for a patent and profit. Never mind that people have been using FreeBSD+X as a desktop OE for over 3 years (well, I'm speaking for myself here, but I imagine others have as well), there's money to be made! Now only if we could have our own proprietary hardware platform... ;) Seriously though, I've used FreeBSD/X (hey, neat name there ;)) for 3 years now without a problem. --Devon Person, Roderick wrote: >-----Original Message----- > > >>From: kitsune [mailto:kitsune@gmx.co.uk] >> >> >>>> FreeBSD 4.x: ~2M lines of code (including kernel modules) >>>> MacOS X: ~6M lines of code (not including kexts) >>>> >>>>It takes a lot of work to make a usable desktop OS. >>>> >>>> >>>But, isn't the majority of the additional lines dealing with the fancy >>>graphics stuff, what is it called cocoa/liguid/carbon or what ever? >>> >>> >>Yeah, but in this case that is the job of X and the toolkits and/or WMs >> >> >that > > >>uses X. >> >> > >So if we combine X with FreeBSD we've got a desktop OS :) > > > >Roderick Person >Programmer >personrp@ccbh.com >http://www.ccbh.com > > >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 10:08:33 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD11A16A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu (1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu [128.147.18.40]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB06D43FD7 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:08:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from personrp@ccbh.com) Received: by 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:08:31 -0400 Message-ID: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B41E810@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> From: "Person, Roderick" To: "'Devon H. O'Dell'" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:08:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:08:33 -0000 -----Original Message----- >From: Devon H. O'Dell [mailto:dodell@sitetronics.com] > >Now only if we could have our own proprietary hardware platform... ;) If would could save the Alpha Chip from dying I'd be all for it :) >Seriously though, I've used FreeBSD/X (hey, neat name there ;)) for 3 >years now without a problem. Me too. I been doing the same for almost 5 years. Aside from every once and awhile wanting to play Morrowind, Madden or NHL Hockey I've not had any problems or desires to use anything else, quite the opposite! From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 10:23:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705E916A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:23:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9BD43FD7 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:23:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02 ([157.226.230.209]:1637 helo=mvaexch02.acuson.com) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19zg1k-0000VK-6O; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:23:40 -0700 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:21:19 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-151.acuson.com ([157.226.46.151]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id SXCQZLVG; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:20:28 -0700 From: Johnson David To: "Person, Roderick" Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:22:35 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4C@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> In-Reply-To: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4C@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309171022.35724.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19zg1k-0000VK-6O*HdnyYrcDR6c* X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:23:49 -0000 On Wednesday 17 September 2003 09:56 am, Person, Roderick wrote: > So if we combine X with FreeBSD we've got a desktop OS :) I'm using FreeBSD + XFree86 + KDE as my primary desktop at work and at home. But no one believes me. Even when they see me calmly working at my desk they don't believe me. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 10:29:23 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20F6D16A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crf-consulting.co.uk (82-44-218-46.cable.ubr10.haye.blueyonder.co.uk [82.44.218.46]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F29343FBD for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:29:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@freebsd.org) Received: from freebsd.org ([192.168.1.112])h8HHTJEH050575; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:29:19 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:53:14 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) To: Terry Lambert From: Nik Clayton In-Reply-To: <3F66E50E.4EDCB472@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <9C511E20-E8DB-11D7-B208-000393863D48@freebsd.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Michal Pasternak Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:29:23 -0000 On Tuesday, September 16, 2003, at 11:25 am, Terry Lambert wrote: > The Official Party Line(tm) is that FreeBSD is a server OS, so > no matter what you put into it, The Keepers Of The Official > Party Line are going to squawk that you can't use the trademark > if you don't distribute "Disc 1" exactly as distributed by the > FreeBSD We Are Not A Workstation OS, We Are A Server OS people, > thus crippling your ability to do what you want to do usefully > or effectively. Jesus Terry, not this crap again. This in no way prevents you from shipping your own installer CD which you describe in your documentation as the preferred method to install. Then, if the customer has problems installing FreeBSd using your installer, and comes to the project's mailing lists for help, they'll be told to either contact your customer support, or use the project's installer which you will have shipped as part of your product. Why is this so hard for you to understand? N From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 10:29:45 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1102E16A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu (1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu [128.147.18.40]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 267EA43F3F for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:29:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from personrp@ccbh.com) Received: by 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:29:43 -0400 Message-ID: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4E@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> From: "Person, Roderick" To: 'Johnson David' Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:29:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:29:45 -0000 -----Original Message----- >From: Johnson David [mailto:DavidJohnson@Siemens.com] > >I'm using FreeBSD + XFree86 + KDE as my primary desktop at work and at >home. But no one believes me. Even when they see me calmly working at >my desk they don't believe me. > I have the same setup at home. I wish I could at work, but this place is too M$ dependent and everyone hates it!! If I could find a way to run Delphi and Terminal Server on FreeBSD, I switch at work too! Roderick Person Programmer personrp@ccbh.com http://www.ccbh.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 10:36:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B32D16A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao06.cox.net (lakemtao06.cox.net [68.1.17.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 672FB43FE1 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:36:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com) Received: from fortytwo ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao06.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20030917173607.WXGO4662.lakemtao06.cox.net@fortytwo>; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:36:07 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:35:06 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: "Person, Roderick" Message-Id: <20030917123506.7d5fedcf.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4C@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4C@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:36:08 -0000 On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:56:18 -0400 "Person, Roderick" wrote: > -----Original Message----- > >From: kitsune [mailto:kitsune@gmx.co.uk] > > >> FreeBSD 4.x: ~2M lines of code (including kernel modules) > > >> MacOS X: ~6M lines of code (not including kexts) > > >> > >> >It takes a lot of work to make a usable desktop OS. > >> > >> But, isn't the majority of the additional lines dealing with the fancy > >> graphics stuff, what is it called cocoa/liguid/carbon or what ever? > > > >Yeah, but in this case that is the job of X and the toolkits and/or WMs > that > >uses X. > > So if we combine X with FreeBSD we've got a desktop OS :) Well X seems to be running quite nicely here and as a desktop, using fluxbox :) From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 10:41:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B3016A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao05.cox.net (lakemtao05.cox.net [68.1.17.116]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1BDA43FD7 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:41:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com) Received: from fortytwo ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao05.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20030917174112.VTEJ10592.lakemtao05.cox.net@fortytwo>; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:41:12 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:40:11 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: "Person, Roderick" Message-Id: <20030917124011.55273d20.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4C@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4C@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:41:14 -0000 On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:56:18 -0400 "Person, Roderick" wrote: > -----Original Message----- > >From: kitsune [mailto:kitsune@gmx.co.uk] > > >> FreeBSD 4.x: ~2M lines of code (including kernel modules) > > >> MacOS X: ~6M lines of code (not including kexts) > > >> > >> >It takes a lot of work to make a usable desktop OS. > >> > >> But, isn't the majority of the additional lines dealing with the fancy > >> graphics stuff, what is it called cocoa/liguid/carbon or what ever? > > > >Yeah, but in this case that is the job of X and the toolkits and/or WMs > that > >uses X. > > So if we combine X with FreeBSD we've got a desktop OS :) It all ready does this great. :) If any thing starting to push FreeBSD as a desktop OS too, besides a server only OS would be good. I personally would love to do it if I had the bandwidth or a host for the project. If any one else is interested in this, I would really be interested in getting together to discuss it and seeing what can be done about it. I personally would love to work on creating a desktop version of FreeBSD which uses a bit of scripting to install some default packages or whatever... From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 10:47:56 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 257D416A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (afg.ixsystems.net [206.40.55.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71DF943FE5 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:47:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: from knight.ixsystems.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.9/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8HHkC1P096917; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:46:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matto@knight.ixsystems.net) Received: (from matto@localhost) by knight.ixsystems.net (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h8HHkCli096916; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:46:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matto) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:46:12 -0700 From: Matt Olander To: Vulpes Velox Message-ID: <20030917104611.A96559@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4C@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> <20030917124011.55273d20.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030917124011.55273d20.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com>; from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com on Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 12:40:11PM -0500 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:47:56 -0000 On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 12:40:11PM -0500, Vulpes Velox wrote: > It all ready does this great. :) If any thing starting to push FreeBSD as a > desktop OS too, besides a server only OS would be good. I personally would love > to do it if I had the bandwidth or a host for the project. > > If any one else is interested in this, I would really be interested in getting > together to discuss it and seeing what can be done about it. > > I personally would love to work on creating a desktop version of FreeBSD which > uses a bit of scripting to install some default packages or whatever... I'm sure I could get OMS to give us hosting and some equipment for that. -matt From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 10:53:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4DFE16A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F247343FD7 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:53:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02 ([157.226.230.209]:3478 helo=mvaexch02.acuson.com) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19zgUQ-0002ek-6C; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:53:18 -0700 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:51:01 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-151.acuson.com ([157.226.46.151]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id SXCQZMH4; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:50:13 -0700 From: Johnson David To: "Person, Roderick" Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:52:20 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4E@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> In-Reply-To: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4E@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309171052.20867.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19zgUQ-0002ek-6C*xhnqgJEFUjI* X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:53:20 -0000 On Wednesday 17 September 2003 10:29 am, Person, Roderick wrote: > I have the same setup at home. I wish I could at work, but this place > is too M$ dependent and everyone hates it!! If I could find a way to > run Delphi and Terminal Server on FreeBSD, I switch at work too! My company builds medical ultrasound systems. Traditionally we were a UNIX shop and everyone had a Sparc station. But after a buyout and several reorgs, we're now a Windows-only shop trying to do embedded UNIX development. Hah! I am so much more productive using FreeBSD+KDE rather than Windows for embedded UNIX development that it's not even funny. We still have our old Sun Ultra10s, and simply exporting my DISPLAY lets me use FrameMaker, Clearcase and ClearQuest under FreeBSD. OpenOffice handles most MSOffice documents just fine. Korganizer keeps me organized. The only thing I need Windows for is setting up meetings with Outlook Calendar. But since I'm not a manager, I don't have to do that but once a month or so. If I could figure out a way to convince IT to turn on Outlook Web Access without letting them know what I want it for, I could dump Windows completely. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 11:33:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C44B16A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E471743F85 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:33:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02 ([157.226.230.209]:2321 helo=mvaexch02.acuson.com) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19zh6s-000650-3g; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:33:02 -0700 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:30:44 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-151.acuson.com ([157.226.46.151]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id SXCQZN1C; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:29:56 -0700 From: Johnson David To: Vulpes Velox Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:32:04 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4C@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> <20030917124011.55273d20.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <20030917124011.55273d20.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309171132.04405.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19zh6s-000650-3g*R419Le/.YdQ* X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:33:09 -0000 On Wednesday 17 September 2003 10:40 am, Vulpes Velox wrote: > If any one else is interested in this, I would really be interested > in getting together to discuss it and seeing what can be done about > it. > > I personally would love to work on creating a desktop version of > FreeBSD which uses a bit of scripting to install some default > packages or whatever... I've been thinking on this for several years now. I've come to the conclusion that only a few things are needed. One is a new installer. I love text mode installers, but I hear that some ex-Linux people get all freaked out when they don't see a GUI. But beyond the GUI, the current installer has some definite workflow problems and sharp edges. For a while I thought the libh project would be taking care of this, but I think it's time to admit that it's finally dead. Another thing that needs doing is splitting apart the installer and the main configuration tool. But the installer should still use the config tool, so you don't have to learn two ways of doing things. A good auditing of the ports to make sure they set sensible defaults on installation would be useful. It's a pain in the butt having to reconfigure a new program to use /dev/acd0 instead of /dev/dvd or /dev/cdrom. That's just one example. This is something anyone can do anytime. It doesn't take a lot of programming experience, only some knowledge of the ports system and lots of communication with various port maintainers. Once you get KDE, Gnome or a good window manager installed and correctly configured, the FreeBSD desktop is all set to go. As long as one doesn't have to admin the underlying system, even my mom can handle KDE. OSX isn't easy to use because it has a slick look with lots of eyecandy, it's easy to use because they got the installation, configuration and administation all figured out. I am more than willing to help out in any of the above areas, or other related projects. I have experience in Qt/KDE, ports and shell scripting. And I've always wanted to learn Ruby. I am confident that FreeBSD can show the Linux world that you can have an easy to use system without dumbing it down to the lowest common denominator. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 11:58:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B25EA16A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx3.absolight.com (mx3.absolight.net [212.43.217.9]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4F1343FAF for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:58:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mat@FreeBSD.org) Received: by mx3.absolight.com (Postfix, from userid 1007) id AADD12A3C; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:58:46 +0200 (CEST) X-Original-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sauron.in.mat.cc (sauron.in.mat.cc [212.43.217.122]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx3.absolight.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D5C32A07; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:58:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:58:28 +0200 From: Mathieu Arnold To: "Person, Roderick" Message-ID: <204128234.1063832308@sauron.in.mat.cc> In-Reply-To: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4E@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4E@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.ed u> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.0b7 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="==========929504B9B8BF5215FFA2==========" cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:58:48 -0000 --==========929504B9B8BF5215FFA2========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline +-Le 17/09/2003 13:29 -0400, Person, Roderick =E9crivait : | -----Original Message----- |> From: Johnson David [mailto:DavidJohnson@Siemens.com] |>=20 |> I'm using FreeBSD + XFree86 + KDE as my primary desktop at work and at=20 |> home. But no one believes me. Even when they see me calmly working at=20 |> my desk they don't believe me. |>=20 |=20 | I have the same setup at home. I wish I could at work, but this place is | too M$ dependent and everyone hates it!! If I could find a way to run | Delphi and Terminal Server on FreeBSD, I switch at work too! For the Terminal Server part : see net/rdesktop. For Delphi, hum, run it in your rdesktop :) --=20 Mathieu Arnold --==========929504B9B8BF5215FFA2========== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (MingW32) iD8DBQE/aK7ZqYYpzGz/vmcRAqoBAKCX/7qqS1sidRIrwLmqlfMzRXeYkwCdHAzE ySQRTXmtFWDz+KANIdDKWNE= =ib/1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==========929504B9B8BF5215FFA2==========-- From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 12:07:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9495416A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web10108.mail.yahoo.com (web10108.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.58]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B4E5543F85 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:07:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from twigles@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030917190741.4815.qmail@web10108.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.5.49.41] by web10108.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:07:41 PDT Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:07:41 -0700 (PDT) From: twig les To: Johnson David , "Person, Roderick" In-Reply-To: <200309171022.35724.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:07:42 -0000 I've been calmly and casually doing my computer science homework on my FreeBSD 4.x laptop since I started. Every single other person is using windows with either dev-C++ or a commercial compiler. They don't really take me seriously either. Bizarre the hoops they will jump through to do things I accomplish by typing mkdir. Too bad we don't have a massive marketing and lobby department, these ppl have been trained to not even consider other options. --- Johnson David wrote: > On Wednesday 17 September 2003 09:56 am, Person, Roderick > wrote: > > > So if we combine X with FreeBSD we've got a desktop OS :) > > I'm using FreeBSD + XFree86 + KDE as my primary desktop at > work and at > home. But no one believes me. Even when they see me calmly > working at > my desk they don't believe me. > > David > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" ===== ----------------------------------------------------------- Emo is what happens when the glee club goes punk. ----------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 12:08:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3DE116A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ajax.achean.com (ajax.achean.com [212.87.82.16]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FA2343FB1 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:08:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jon.mercer@achean.com) Received: from menelaus.office.achean.com (dsl-217-155-191-93.zen.co.uk [217.155.191.93]) by ajax.achean.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8HJ8T7h056135 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:08:35 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jon.mercer@achean.com) Received: from achean.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])h8HJ8IZS007314 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:08:24 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jon.mercer@achean.com) Message-ID: <3F68B121.5020103@achean.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:08:17 +0100 From: Jon Mercer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030806 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4C@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> <20030917124011.55273d20.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> <200309171132.04405.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> In-Reply-To: <200309171132.04405.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.4 required=5.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,MISSING_HEADERS, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,RCVD_IN_OSIRUSOFT_COM,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_UA,X_ACCEPT_LANG, X_OSIRU_OPEN_RELAY version=2.55-achean_mailfilter_v1.00 X-Spam-Report: This mail is probably spam. The original message has been attachedunwanted mail in future. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. @advocacy but following this discussion I'm drawn to want to put my tuppence serverthat I find I can't do. [...] Content analysis details: (1.40 points, 5 required) X_ACCEPT_LANG (-0.1 points) Has a X-Accept-Language header IN_REP_TO (-0.5 points) Has a In-Reply-To header non-spam MUA (Mozilla)headeremail attributionquoted email text MISSING_HEADERS (0.5 points) Missing To: header relays.osirusoft.com [RBL check: found 93.191.155.217.relays.osirusoft.com.]Open Relay REPLY_WITH_QUOTES (-0.5 points) Reply with quoted text X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55-achean_mailfilter_v1.00 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:08:42 -0000 OK, bear with me, I'm not a regular poster to @advocacy but following this discussion I'm drawn to want to put my tuppence worth in. Like loads of people here I've been using FreeBSD as a server and desktop OS for yonks, with very few problems, and very little that I find I can't do. There are two things that strike that just seem contrary to enterprise computing that have been going round in this list: 1. Desktop computing is hardly the area where massive efficiency is going to be all the rage in the future. Windows can hardly be described as the paragon of fast computing on the desktop. I'd far sooner run FBSD on the desktop than Linux because it is so much easier to configure and administer in an enterprise environment. In such an environment having an OS that makes the most of the available resources of the hardware platform just isn't as important as ease of administration. (And M$ Windows hardly scores there.) 2. On the server side, having an OS that is as efficient as possible is important because these servers often need to be more scalable than on the desktop to handle the increasing loads of growing businesses. It just strikes me that Linux, with more effort being placed into threading, etc. is better placed as a server OS than FBSD. PLEASE, someone update me on how we do vs. Linux in terms of threading, handling processes, et al. My interest here is not just academic, after many years working in enterprise environments in many capacities, I set up Achean to make headway in the deployment of OSS in the enterprise environment. Please feel free to check out http://www.achean.com/ and make some comments if you wish. All replies, flames, trolls, gratefully receives as part of the learning process! Cheers, Jon Johnson David wrote: > On Wednesday 17 September 2003 10:40 am, Vulpes Velox wrote: > > >>If any one else is interested in this, I would really be interested >>in getting together to discuss it and seeing what can be done about >>it. >> >>I personally would love to work on creating a desktop version of >>FreeBSD which uses a bit of scripting to install some default >>packages or whatever... > > > I've been thinking on this for several years now. I've come to the > conclusion that only a few things are needed. One is a new installer. I > love text mode installers, but I hear that some ex-Linux people get all > freaked out when they don't see a GUI. But beyond the GUI, the current > installer has some definite workflow problems and sharp edges. For a > while I thought the libh project would be taking care of this, but I > think it's time to admit that it's finally dead. > > Another thing that needs doing is splitting apart the installer and the > main configuration tool. But the installer should still use the config > tool, so you don't have to learn two ways of doing things. > > A good auditing of the ports to make sure they set sensible defaults on > installation would be useful. It's a pain in the butt having to > reconfigure a new program to use /dev/acd0 instead of /dev/dvd or > /dev/cdrom. That's just one example. This is something anyone can do > anytime. It doesn't take a lot of programming experience, only some > knowledge of the ports system and lots of communication with various > port maintainers. > > Once you get KDE, Gnome or a good window manager installed and correctly > configured, the FreeBSD desktop is all set to go. As long as one > doesn't have to admin the underlying system, even my mom can handle > KDE. OSX isn't easy to use because it has a slick look with lots of > eyecandy, it's easy to use because they got the installation, > configuration and administation all figured out. > > I am more than willing to help out in any of the above areas, or other > related projects. I have experience in Qt/KDE, ports and shell > scripting. And I've always wanted to learn Ruby. I am confident that > FreeBSD can show the Linux world that you can have an easy to use > system without dumbing it down to the lowest common denominator. > > David > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | ___ ___ | | / | | / | | / /| | / / | | / / | | _____ / / ____ ____ ___ | | / /__| | / ___ \ / /__ / __ \ / _ | | /__ | | / ____ | / / /_/ / ___ \ / /_/ / / / | | / ___ \ | | / / | | / / __ / / \ \ | ___/__ / / / / / / \ \ | | / / | | | |__/ / / / / / | \__/ / | |_| | / / / / | | /__\ /___\ \_____/ /__| /__| \_____/ \__/|_| /__| /__| | | | | www.achean.com | | ============== | | Jon Mercer jon.mercer@achean.com | | | | Mobile 07973 256496 | | | | Tel. 0117 9561211 | | | | Fax 0117 9565637 | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 12:38:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1331B16A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEAA043FDD for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:38:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02 ([157.226.230.209]:2460 helo=mvaexch02.acuson.com) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19zi7z-0003DX-5R; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:38:15 -0700 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:35:53 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-151.acuson.com ([157.226.46.151]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id SXCQZ3HA; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:35:05 -0700 From: Johnson David To: Jon Mercer Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:37:12 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4C@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> <200309171132.04405.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <3F68B121.5020103@achean.com> In-Reply-To: <3F68B121.5020103@achean.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309171237.12609.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19zi7z-0003DX-5R*S2olhShd.SQ* X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:38:29 -0000 On Wednesday 17 September 2003 12:08 pm, Jon Mercer wrote: > 1. Desktop computing is hardly the area where massive efficiency is > going to be all the rage in the future. Windows can hardly be > described as the paragon of fast computing on the desktop. But unfortunately, the desktop is all anyone thinks about. Just look at Linux. IBM, SGI and Sun are all gungho over Linux, the media is paying attention, it's being scaled up to the really big iron and scaled down to the smalled embedded devices. But all you ever hear from a lot of *Linux* advocates is "Linux will fail without the desktop". > 2. On the server side, having an OS that is as efficient as possible > is important because these servers often need to be more scalable > than on the desktop to handle the increasing loads of growing > businesses. It just strikes me that Linux, with more effort being > placed into threading, etc. is better placed as a server OS than > FBSD. It's going to be a long long time before FreeBSD is ready for the IBM big iron or to replace the million dollar Solaris servers running the enterprise. But neither is Windows, but that's not stopping stupid execs from trying. Perception is everything in this market, like it or not. But there's no reason for FreeBSD not to be running the print, file and web servers. There's no reason for it not to be the development workstation of choice. It ought to make an awesome POS terminal. It's still the number one choice for ISPs. Maybe Linux will grab all the Fortune 500 companies. But I see no reason why FreeBSD can't grab all of the small business market. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 14:07:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B370716A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao07.cox.net (lakemtao07.cox.net [68.1.17.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A267243FAF for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:07:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com) Received: from fortytwo ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao07.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20030917210756.OBY15705.lakemtao07.cox.net@fortytwo>; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:07:56 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:06:54 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20030917160654.52ceb56c.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: DavidJohnson@Siemens.com cc: Mikel@ocsny.com Subject: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:07:57 -0000 Well I have gotten a few replies so I thought I would email you all and the list at the same time. Sorry if I annoy any of you by doing this. Should this possibly be moved to another list and if so which one? Here are some of what I have been thinking off... 1: Trying to keep it speed and mem friendly. 2: Using some light WM as a defualt, but using custamized menus and the like for defualt. Possibly setting it up so it comes with predefined configs for various WMs. 3: Putting together some light stuff for config that are both workable from cli or X. 4: Nice X front end to various cli package tools. hmm... that is all that really comes to mind right now... I would love to here more ideas. Any one else interested getting involved? All help would greatly be appreciated. My skills I am bringing to this tables include. Limited html, python, and c, but very workable. Generally need to make heavy use of refs in those three areas. Good ability for structuring designs/whatever. And finally decent shell scripting. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 14:25:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9BC016A4BF for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A847143FE0 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:24:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 26604 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Sep 2003 21:23:00 -0000 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:23:00 +0000 From: Michal Pasternak To: Vulpes Velox Message-ID: <20030917212259.GA12266@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mail-Followup-To: Vulpes Velox , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, DavidJohnson@Siemens.com, Mikel@ocsny.com References: <20030917160654.52ceb56c.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030917160654.52ceb56c.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> cc: DavidJohnson@Siemens.com cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Mikel@ocsny.com Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:25:04 -0000 Vulpes Velox [Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 04:06:54PM -0500]: > Should this possibly be moved to another list and if so which one? freebsd-chat@ ? > 2: Using some light WM as a defualt, but using custamized menus and the like for > defualt. Possibly setting it up so it comes with predefined configs for various > WMs. Have you seen how Debian handles this issue? Debian packages, which are suitable for placing in such GUI menu, install specific description files, from which the menus are generated by update-menus package. Update-menus handles those descriptions and produces specific configuration file for every installed windowmanager. Just port it from Debian... and tell ports maintainers to update their files. You need to have such "update-menu" description file - and you need to know, which package is a windowmanager, to also generate configuration for it. Without correct infrastructure it won't work out. Currently, FreeBSD ports (and packages) don't provide such meta-information. > 4: Nice X front end to various cli package tools. I'd split such task - I mean "GUI configuration tool" - into 2 parts. One part would be the server. It would be running on local machine, listening on local socket (or tcp/ip), performing authentication and specific tasks. Server configuration would be written as an XML file and parsed into application-specific entries in /etc and /usr/local/etc. 2nd part would be the GUI. You could write then any GUI configuration tool you want (ncurses, GTK, Qt, KDE) and administer your machine locally - or remotely. If you use GTK or wxWindows to write such client, you could even have a GUI configuration tool to run in MS Windows. You could also make some PHP frontends and create a web-configuration tool. Python seems a correct language to code such task in. Network infrastructure would be powered by Twisted Python (www.twistedmatrix.com), GUI would be done via py-gtk2. Just my $.25 Regards, -- Michal Pasternak :: http://pasternak.w.lub.pl Noise to meet you. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 15:40:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A29816A514 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E003043FFB for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:40:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02 ([157.226.230.209]:3321 helo=mvaexch02.acuson.com) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19zkxv-0001Zk-3Z; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:40:03 -0700 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:37:47 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-151.acuson.com ([157.226.46.151]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id SXCQZR35; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:36:57 -0700 From: Johnson David To: Vulpes Velox , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:39:05 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <20030917160654.52ceb56c.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <20030917160654.52ceb56c.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309171539.05611.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19zkxv-0001Zk-3Z*YCiNluPs/42* X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:40:12 -0000 On Wednesday 17 September 2003 02:06 pm, Vulpes Velox wrote: > Should this possibly be moved to another list and if so which one? If anyone can set up a separate mailing list, that would probably be best. I fear -chat high volume traffic. yahoo groups suck IHMO, and I wouldn't join one if I had to set up an account. google groups isn't too bad, but still subpar. David p.s. I'm going on vacation starting Saturday, and will be suspending my -advocacy subscription for the duration. So cc me to make sure I get any appropriate messages. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 15:55:19 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67A5816A4C1 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69BC6442A2 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:49:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02 ([157.226.230.209]:4007 helo=mvaexch02.acuson.com) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19zl6w-0001yu-3w; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:49:22 -0700 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:47:06 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-151.acuson.com ([157.226.46.151]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id SXCQZRSF; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:46:15 -0700 From: Johnson David To: Michal Pasternak Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:48:22 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <20030917160654.52ceb56c.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> <20030917212259.GA12266@pasternak.w.lub.pl> In-Reply-To: <20030917212259.GA12266@pasternak.w.lub.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309171548.22742.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19zl6w-0001yu-3w*TAZbINZVuKw* X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:55:19 -0000 On Wednesday 17 September 2003 02:23 pm, Michal Pasternak wrote: > Just port it from Debian... and tell ports maintainers to update > their files. You need to have such "update-menu" description file - > and you need to know, which package is a windowmanager, to also > generate configuration for it. The Debian way is nice, but we already have some pieces of our own that we should work with. I would say use Debian as inspiration and a source of ideas, but still do it our own way. The more you have to tell port maintainers what to do, the more difficult it will be to get buy-in. So definitely get a prototype of something working first. It's an easier sell that way. > Python seems a correct language to code such task in. Network > infrastructure would be powered by Twisted Python > (www.twistedmatrix.com), GUI would be done via py-gtk2. Stuff to be hashed out. Personally I think C/C++ is the best to code this in. And if I had to go with an interpreted language, I would probably pick Ruby. See how contentious this stuff gets! David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 16:11:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBEEF16A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EEF3743FDD for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:11:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 8581 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Sep 2003 23:09:19 -0000 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:09:19 +0000 From: Michal Pasternak To: Johnson David Message-ID: <20030917230919.GA8428@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mail-Followup-To: Johnson David , Michal Pasternak , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20030917160654.52ceb56c.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> <20030917212259.GA12266@pasternak.w.lub.pl> <200309171548.22742.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200309171548.22742.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Michal Pasternak Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:11:09 -0000 Johnson David [Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 03:48:22PM -0700]: > On Wednesday 17 September 2003 02:23 pm, Michal Pasternak wrote: > > > Just port it from Debian... and tell ports maintainers to update > > their files. You need to have such "update-menu" description file - > > and you need to know, which package is a windowmanager, to also > > generate configuration for it. > > The Debian way is nice, but we already have some pieces of our own that > we should work with. For example? I am very, very interested. > I would say use Debian as inspiration and a source > of ideas, but still do it our own way. ... even if Debian's way is the one, right way to do that? That would be a little silly, don't you think? I am really, really interested how would you solve this problem. > The more you have to tell port maintainers what to do, the more > difficult it will be to get buy-in. Of course. That's why it is a hard task > So definitely get a prototype of > something working first. It's an easier sell that way. You _won't_ make it right basing on "prototypes". > > Python seems a correct language to code such task in. Network > > infrastructure would be powered by Twisted Python > > (www.twistedmatrix.com), GUI would be done via py-gtk2. > > Stuff to be hashed out. Personally I think C/C++ is the best to code > this in. Well, personally, I don't. -- Michal Pasternak :: http://pasternak.w.lub.pl Noise to meet you. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 16:15:43 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1818F16A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heceta.db.net (heceta.db.net [66.11.169.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B56D143FE3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:15:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from db@db.net) Received: from heceta.db.net ([66.11.169.52] helo=localhost) by heceta.db.net with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19zlW9-000FdR-Kd; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:15:25 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=night.dbn) by night.db.net with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 19zlVm-000GaY-IZ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:15:02 -0400 Received: (from db@localhost) by night.dbn (8.12.9/8.12.8/Submit) id h8HNErvj063766; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:14:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: night.dbn: db set sender to db@db.net using -f Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:14:52 -0400 From: Diane Bruce To: Johnson David Message-ID: <20030917231452.GA63754@db.net> References: <20030917160654.52ceb56c.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> <20030917212259.GA12266@pasternak.w.lub.pl> <200309171548.22742.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200309171548.22742.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Score: -4.5 (----) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19zlW9-000FdR-Kd*bVDOqc0oItE* cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Michal Pasternak Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:15:43 -0000 On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 03:48:22PM -0700, Johnson David wrote: > On Wednesday 17 September 2003 02:23 pm, Michal Pasternak wrote: > > > Just port it from Debian... and tell ports maintainers to update And how do you deal with GPL? > The more you have to tell port maintainers what to do, the more > difficult it will be to get buy-in. So definitely get a prototype of > something working first. It's an easier sell that way. So. Stop arguing. Stop posting. Just do it and shut up. (BTDT, still have the bullet holes) - Diane From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 16:53:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70DC916A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4492A43FBF for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:53:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02 ([157.226.230.209]:4543 helo=mvaexch02.acuson.com) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19zm6d-0005hh-4L; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:53:07 -0700 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:50:50 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-151.acuson.com ([157.226.46.151]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id SXCQZSH0; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:50:00 -0700 From: Johnson David To: Michal Pasternak Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:52:08 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <20030917160654.52ceb56c.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> <200309171548.22742.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <20030917230919.GA8428@pasternak.w.lub.pl> In-Reply-To: <20030917230919.GA8428@pasternak.w.lub.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309171652.08667.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19zm6d-0005hh-4L*J1V5ScFmfhg* X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:53:11 -0000 On Wednesday 17 September 2003 04:09 pm, Michal Pasternak wrote: > ... even if Debian's way is the one, right way to do that? That would > be a little silly, don't you think? I am really, really interested > how would you solve this problem. I think we need to define exactly what we want to do first. In terms of wm menu configuration, we don't have anything. Debian's way might be the best solution. But in terms of package management, I'll take ports and portupgrade over apt-get any day. > > So definitely get a prototype of > > something working first. It's an easier sell that way. > > You _won't_ make it right basing on "prototypes". And you won't make headway saying "I haven't coded anything yet, but I need you to make these changes to your port". By "prototype", and mean a workable system with a handful of modified ports to demonstrate with. > > Stuff to be hashed out. Personally I think C/C++ is the best to > > code this in. > > Well, personally, I don't. We still need to define exactly what we want to do. If it's just modifying menus, then of course use Perl/Python/Ruby/Tcl/Etc. Heck, use bourne! But actually writing a new installer might entail C. A GUI that needs to be responsive might need to be in C++, depending on the toolkit. Fitting this all onto floppy number two for a network install might very well preclude most scripting languages in favor of a small tight C utility. p.s. Someone needs to set up a new list for this. David From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 17:24:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794B516A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C590143FDF for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:24:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from michal@pasternak.w.lub.pl) Received: (qmail 28723 invoked by uid 1000); 18 Sep 2003 00:22:32 -0000 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:22:31 +0000 From: Michal Pasternak To: Diane Bruce Message-ID: <20030918002231.GA21704@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mail-Followup-To: Diane Bruce , Johnson David , Michal Pasternak , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20030917160654.52ceb56c.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> <20030917212259.GA12266@pasternak.w.lub.pl> <200309171548.22742.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <20030917231452.GA63754@db.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030917231452.GA63754@db.net> cc: Johnson David cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Michal Pasternak Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Michal Pasternak List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:24:21 -0000 Diane Bruce [Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 07:14:52PM -0400]: > On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 03:48:22PM -0700, Johnson David wrote: > > On Wednesday 17 September 2003 02:23 pm, Michal Pasternak wrote: > > > > > Just port it from Debian... and tell ports maintainers to update > > And how do you deal with GPL? You know, what the letter "g" in gcc(1) means, don't you? -- m From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 17:50:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F01B116A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heceta.db.net (heceta.db.net [66.11.169.52]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB54B43FCB for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:50:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from db@db.net) Received: from heceta.db.net ([66.11.169.52] helo=localhost) by heceta.db.net with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19zn07-000Few-0J; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:50:28 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=night.dbn) by night.db.net with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 19zn00-000GgH-Ui; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:50:20 -0400 Received: (from db@localhost) by night.dbn (8.12.9/8.12.8/Submit) id h8I0oKNp064124; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:50:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: night.dbn: db set sender to db@db.net using -f Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:50:20 -0400 From: Diane Bruce To: Johnson David , Michal Pasternak , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030918005020.GA64109@db.net> References: <20030917160654.52ceb56c.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> <20030917212259.GA12266@pasternak.w.lub.pl> <200309171548.22742.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <20030917231452.GA63754@db.net> <20030918002231.GA21704@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030918002231.GA21704@pasternak.w.lub.pl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Score: -4.5 (----) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19zn07-000Few-0J*Y0ALQ7rsxTQ* Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:50:50 -0000 On Thu, Sep 18, 2003 at 12:22:31AM +0000, Michal Pasternak wrote: > Diane Bruce [Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 07:14:52PM -0400]: > > On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 03:48:22PM -0700, Johnson David wrote: > > > On Wednesday 17 September 2003 02:23 pm, Michal Pasternak wrote: > > > > > > > Just port it from Debian... and tell ports maintainers to update > > > > And how do you deal with GPL? > > You know, what the letter "g" in gcc(1) means, don't you? http://www.tendra.org I hate smartasses. - Diane From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 18:05:17 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 561F916A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.acuson.com (ac17860.acuson.com [157.226.71.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D7A443F3F for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:05:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from DavidJohnson@Siemens.com) Received: from mvaexch02 ([157.226.230.209]:3568 helo=mvaexch02.acuson.com) by zeus.acuson.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 19znEN-00028f-5y; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:05:11 -0700 Received: by mvaexch02.acuson.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:02:55 -0700 Received: from dhcp-46-151.acuson.com ([157.226.46.151]) by mvaexch01.acuson.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id SXCQZS0K; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:02:06 -0700 From: Johnson David To: Diane Bruce Organization: Siemens Medical Systems Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:04:14 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.3 References: <20030917160654.52ceb56c.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> <200309171548.22742.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <20030917231452.GA63754@db.net> In-Reply-To: <20030917231452.GA63754@db.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309171804.14110.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *19znEN-00028f-5y*EsM8hU.k5Yo* X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:05:17 -0000 On Wednesday 17 September 2003 04:14 pm, Diane Bruce wrote: > So. Stop arguing. Stop posting. Just do it and shut up. BTDT as well. So I'll stop posting and do it. Anyone interested contact me off list. I'll start work when I get back from vacation in October. So what am I writing? I have no idea. But Diane is right. Talking about it doesn't make things happen. Whatever it is will be beyond my abilities as an individual developer though. David Johnson From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 21:07:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E2216A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao08.cox.net (lakemtao08.cox.net [68.1.17.113]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FAEE43FAF for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:07:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com) Received: from fortytwo ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao08.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20030918040711.ETMA16616.lakemtao08.cox.net@fortytwo>; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:07:11 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:06:11 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: Michal Pasternak Message-Id: <20030917230611.5f789f7f.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <20030917212259.GA12266@pasternak.w.lub.pl> References: <20030917160654.52ceb56c.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> <20030917212259.GA12266@pasternak.w.lub.pl> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: DavidJohnson@Siemens.com cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Mikel@ocsny.com Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 04:07:15 -0000 On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:23:00 +0000 Michal Pasternak wrote: > Vulpes Velox [Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 04:06:54PM -0500]: > > Should this possibly be moved to another list and if so which one? > > freebsd-chat@ ? > > > 2: Using some light WM as a defualt, but using custamized menus and the like > > for defualt. Possibly setting it up so it comes with predefined configs for > > various WMs. > > Have you seen how Debian handles this issue? > > Debian packages, which are suitable for placing in such GUI menu, install > specific description files, from which the menus are generated by > update-menus package. Update-menus handles those descriptions and produces > specific configuration file for every installed windowmanager. > > Just port it from Debian... and tell ports maintainers to update their > files. You need to have such "update-menu" description file - and you need > to know, which package is a windowmanager, to also generate configuration > for it. > > Without correct infrastructure it won't work out. Currently, FreeBSD ports > (and packages) don't provide such meta-information. That could be done, but what I was thinking more along the lines of is something that can manipulate the menus of each individual users, by that user. The base system will include predefined menus, based on what is installed or something to set them up if something different is choosen. Something for applying system wide changes could be nice too. > > 4: Nice X front end to various cli package tools. > > I'd split such task - I mean "GUI configuration tool" - into 2 parts. > > One part would be the server. It would be running on local machine, > listening on local socket (or tcp/ip), performing authentication and > specific tasks. Server configuration would be written as an XML file and > parsed into application-specific entries in /etc and /usr/local/etc. > > 2nd part would be the GUI. You could write then any GUI configuration > tool you want (ncurses, GTK, Qt, KDE) and administer your machine locally - > or remotely. If you use GTK or wxWindows to write such client, you could > even have a GUI configuration tool to run in MS Windows. You could also make > some PHP frontends and create a web-configuration tool. > > Python seems a correct language to code such task in. Network infrastructure > would be powered by Twisted Python (www.twistedmatrix.com), GUI would be > done via py-gtk2. Out of curiosity, why would this require any server what so ever? That afaik, would just be a waste of resources. I personally would love to stay away from xml config files as they are not pretty to manage from cli. > Just my $.25 > > Regards, > -- > Michal Pasternak :: http://pasternak.w.lub.pl > Noise to meet you. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Sep 17 21:23:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BFCD16A4B3 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao07.cox.net (lakemtao07.cox.net [68.1.17.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9583C43F85 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:23:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com) Received: from fortytwo ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao07.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20030918042303.ETLW15705.lakemtao07.cox.net@fortytwo>; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:23:03 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:22:03 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: "Mike King" Message-Id: <20030917232203.4a95d240.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <0F3177E4824EC94698BAA43AF73D1BC7C75E@hercules.ocsny.com> References: <0F3177E4824EC94698BAA43AF73D1BC7C75E@hercules.ocsny.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 04:23:05 -0000 Cool, either sounds like they could be interesting. Btw who is OMS? But yeah Mike, that sounds like it could be a good start. Is there any one out there that would be interested in helping out with html/whatever? On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:07:22 -0400 "Mike King" wrote: > bw and hardware shall not be a problem to start. I can certainly arrange for > both the time being. fBSD5.1 + apache2+ php4 + mysql good enough to get > rolling? Just let me know who's going to get access and from where. > > In fact why don't we put a call out for project helpers? Desginers? Admins? et > cettera....then we can plug some people into teams and come up with a few > designs picking best bits from each and start producing? > > Once things take off then and we have some interest then we can worry about > bigger hosting. > > Cheers, > Mikel King > CIO/CTO > Optimized Compter Solutions, INC. > 39 West Fourteenth Street > Second Floor > New York, NY 10011-7489 > www.ocsny.com > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org on behalf of Matt Olander > Sent: Wed 9/17/2003 1:46 PM > To: Vulpes Velox > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Sorry. > > > > On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 12:40:11PM -0500, Vulpes Velox wrote: > > It all ready does this great. :) If any thing starting to push FreeBSD as > > a desktop OS too, besides a server only OS would be good. I personally would > > love to do it if I had the bandwidth or a host for the project. > > > > If any one else is interested in this, I would really be interested in > > getting together to discuss it and seeing what can be done about it. > > > > I personally would love to work on creating a desktop version of FreeBSD > > which uses a bit of scripting to install some default packages or > > whatever... > > I'm sure I could get OMS to give us hosting and some equipment for that. > > -matt > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 18 00:53:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ECF716A4B3; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B110D43FCB; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:53:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfk1k.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.208.52] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19ztbY-0003Af-00; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:53:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3F69644A.69CB5363@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:52:42 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Clayton References: <9C511E20-E8DB-11D7-B208-000393863D48@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a47d0a59405df9868bc0dbb4d6d67d09ff3ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Michal Pasternak Subject: Re: Sorry about sysinstall. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:53:36 -0000 Nik Clayton wrote: > This in no way prevents you from shipping your own installer CD which > you describe in your documentation as the preferred method to install. > > Then, if the customer has problems installing FreeBSd using your > installer, and comes to the project's mailing lists for help, they'll > be told to either contact your customer support, or use the project's > installer which you will have shipped as part of your product. > > Why is this so hard for you to understand? It's not hard for me to understand. It's just annoying. About as annoying as buying a brand name laptop that a third party has installed FreeBSD on, calling the manufacturer for an obvious hardware problem, and then being told that before they will even consider looking at the problem unrelated to the OS I have installed, that I will need to "Reinstall Windows, and if it still doesn't work, THEN we'll be willing to consider that it might be a hardware problem". Do you see the similarities between some hypothetical person with a third party FreeBSD installer that installs the same damn FreeBS plus the same damn packages, and having some well known FreeBSD problem biting them, being told to reinstall "using the project's installer", because *somehow*, "it *must* be the GUI version of sysintall that's biting them on the ass" when the battery monitor in KDE fails to work with their laptop? It's assinine to limit something because of a hypothetical situation that could be engineered against anyway, but even if it wasn't, will probably never occur. It's very annoying to have people assume that because someone wants to replace the installer and get paid for doing it, that they are going to be stupid and replace libc with glibc or some other magnificent feat of stupidity, or that the project could not place *reasonable* restrictions on what an *installed* FreeBSD system needs to look and function like, rather than what an inert piece of plastic and aluminum that has yet to be installed must look like. How is not shipping with a disc that boots to the arcane and frustrating torture device known as sysinstall any different than the "FreeBSD live CD" folks who *also* do not ship disc 1 with *their* "FreeBSD" distribution? If you are honestly concerned about differences in the code that gets installed, that's one thing: so limit the minimum set of software that has to be installed... what the *heck* does that have to do with the installer that installed it, particularly when one of the things you can insist be installed is a "check_integrity" tool that MD5's all the non-configuration files and probably even the template configuration files, too, and bitches when the MD5's don't match the expected value? Before you complain, I invite you to go through the -questions archive, and count the number of instances where the answer to a question was "run sysinstall and type this key sequence". I do *not* mean instances of mentions of sysinstall, as in "you know, sysinstall sucks" or "let's replace sysinstall" or "I wish to God someone would replace sysinstall", I mean *genuine* instances where sysinstall was the answer to the question, and it imparted the information necessary to use it as the answer, instead of vague hand-waving of "it's in the damn thing somewhere". I also don't mean things like 50,000 foot view instructions like "run sysinstall and install XXX", which yould just as easily be replaced with "run your installer and install XXX". Finally, it's really ignorant to presume that the people who wrote a replacement installer for their distribution media would not *also* be members of the FreeBSD community, and would not *also* participate in the same forums, and would not *also* answer questions related to their provided installer. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 18 01:12:27 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85CF416A4B3 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7DCF43FDF for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:12:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfk1k.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.208.52] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19ztq9-0001gT-00; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:08:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3F6967D7.7EC6F0CB@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:07:51 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Person, Roderick" References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B41E80F@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4e11e6da14be2ad0c8c2c9aca5812bdc2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:12:27 -0000 "Person, Roderick" wrote: > > Part 1.1Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > -----Original Message----- > >From: Terry Lambert [mailto:tlambert2@mindspring.com] > >Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 1:56 AM > > >twig les wrote: > >> I thought FreeBSD *did* have a client setup called Darwin. ;-) > > > >FWIW: > > > > FreeBSD 4.x: ~2M lines of code (including kernel modules) > > MacOS X: ~6M lines of code (not including kexts) > > > >It takes a lot of work to make a usable desktop OS. > > But, isn't the majority of the additional lines dealing with the fancy > graphics stuff, what is it called cocoa/liguid/carbon or what ever? No. There are effectively 3 kernels in MacOS X: Mach (osfmk) IOKit (iokit) BSD Server (bsd) This enables MacOS X to do things like maintain stable driver interfaces for third party device drivers. Note that that 6M lines of code count did not include most device drivers, or even the majority of filesystems, either. IOKit is like Solaris' DDI/DKI (only stable). Try and find one device driver or FS kernel module from FreeBSD 4.3 that will load and run unmodified in a FreeBSD 4.8 kernel, and you will quickly see what I mean. Compartmentalizing and abstracting interfaces costs effort. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 18 01:54:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A970716A4B3 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net (firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.247]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE69A43F3F for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:54:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfk1k.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.208.52] helo=mindspring.com) by firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19zuXb-0000lr-00; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:53:32 -0700 Message-ID: <3F697258.58B573C3@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:52:40 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johnson David References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4C@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> <3F68B121.5020103@achean.com> <200309171237.12609.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a470ceb25c95867d6c8c7fd88754cc76d9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:54:08 -0000 Johnson David wrote: > On Wednesday 17 September 2003 12:08 pm, Jon Mercer wrote: > > 1. Desktop computing is hardly the area where massive efficiency is > > going to be all the rage in the future. Windows can hardly be > > described as the paragon of fast computing on the desktop. > > But unfortunately, the desktop is all anyone thinks about. Just look at > Linux. IBM, SGI and Sun are all gungho over Linux, the media is paying > attention, it's being scaled up to the really big iron and scaled down > to the smalled embedded devices. But all you ever hear from a lot of > *Linux* advocates is "Linux will fail without the desktop". They are correct. Without a viable alternative desktop, you are always in danger of a vendor wielding monopolistic power in the marketplace, and using that power to leverage a similar monopoly in the server space, squeezing you out via unfair trade practices. Yes, a monopolist would have to violate Sherman and probably RICO to do this, but it's been known to happen. > Maybe Linux will grab all the Fortune 500 companies. But I see no reason > why FreeBSD can't grab all of the small business market. I expect that it can't for the same reason IBM GSB was unable to grab that market: the market is not as homogenous as the people who refer to it as if it were one big lump would like to believe, and therefore you will never see a majority vendor for anything other than commodity products. I class Windows boxes as a commodity for the purposes of this discussion, and that's primarily because of their third party software base. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 18 02:54:16 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DF7E16A4B3 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 02:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net (firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.247]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F3A943FDF for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 02:54:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfk1k.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.208.52] helo=mindspring.com) by firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19zvUG-0003qC-00; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 02:54:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3F698080.474EB847@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 02:53:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johnson David References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4C@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> <200309171132.04405.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a412c0c52692c8eede1084e9d89d144abea8438e0f32a48e08350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Vulpes Velox Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:54:16 -0000 Johnson David wrote: > I've been thinking on this for several years now. I've come to the > conclusion that only a few things are needed. One is a new installer. I > love text mode installers, but I hear that some ex-Linux people get all > freaked out when they don't see a GUI. But beyond the GUI, the current > installer has some definite workflow problems and sharp edges. For a > while I thought the libh project would be taking care of this, but I > think it's time to admit that it's finally dead. I agree with this 100%. I also think that this is 100% incompatible with installs onto headless boxes with serial consoles, and that you can't really reconcile the two approaches in the same distribution without multiple installation disc's. This means regular CD's and not a DVD, or it means a seperate distribution from the WC CDROM one. This is also not reconcilable with minimal installs, which do not have the ability to run a big graphical app. > Another thing that needs doing is splitting apart the installer and the > main configuration tool. But the installer should still use the config > tool, so you don't have to learn two ways of doing things. This is not impossible to reconcile (after all, you've already probed the hardware, etc., at this point). You can seperate out the data into a model/view/controller style, and vary only the controller in this case. I think this is also very hard to do, though, and so I would punt on this. The way I would punt is by not supporting two different approaches for controller on the same distribution. [ ... other good comments clipped ... ] -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 18 08:06:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B9F316A4BF for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail16.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.216]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E68F43FCB for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:06:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 22489 invoked from network); 18 Sep 2003 15:06:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender )encrypted SMTP for ; 18 Sep 2003 15:06:44 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8IF6X6Y087958; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:06:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.4 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3F69644A.69CB5363@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:06:35 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Terry Lambert X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Michal Pasternak cc: Nik Clayton Subject: Re: Sorry about sysinstall. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:06:46 -0000 On 18-Sep-2003 Terry Lambert wrote: > Nik Clayton wrote: >> This in no way prevents you from shipping your own installer CD which >> you describe in your documentation as the preferred method to install. >> >> Then, if the customer has problems installing FreeBSd using your >> installer, and comes to the project's mailing lists for help, they'll >> be told to either contact your customer support, or use the project's >> installer which you will have shipped as part of your product. >> >> Why is this so hard for you to understand? > > It's not hard for me to understand. > > It's just annoying. > > Do you see the similarities between some hypothetical person > with a third party FreeBSD installer that installs the same > damn FreeBS plus the same damn packages, and having some well > known FreeBSD problem biting them, being told to reinstall > "using the project's installer", because *somehow*, "it *must* > be the GUI version of sysintall that's biting them on the ass" > when the battery monitor in KDE fails to work with their > laptop? Try and find one instance on current, hackers, arch, etc. where someone reported a bug and someone else asked them which installer they used to install the box. > It's assinine to limit something because of a hypothetical > situation that could be engineered against anyway, but even > if it wasn't, will probably never occur. It's assinine to make bogus, unfounded statements about the developers on the mailing lists and their responses to bug reports. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 18 08:27:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C7D16A4B3; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:27:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amsfep11-int.chello.nl (amsfep11-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDFE243FD7; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:27:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com ([213.46.142.207]) by amsfep11-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with ESMTP id <20030918152705.ZPSM4496.amsfep11-int.chello.nl@sitetronics.com>; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:27:05 +0200 Message-ID: <3F69CE7E.6050801@sitetronics.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:25:50 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030820 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Michal Pasternak cc: Nik Clayton Subject: Re: Sorry about sysinstall. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:27:15 -0000 John Baldwin wrote: >>situation that could be engineered against anyway, but even >>if it wasn't, will probably never occur. >> >> > It's assinine to limit something because of a hypothetical > > >It's assinine to make bogus, unfounded statements about the >developers on the mailing lists and their responses to bug >reports. > > Look, otherwise why don't we set up a freebsd-flames list? What we need now is more productivity and less bitching/whining/moaning/etc. I'm sure this has been said on numerous lists, numerous times. Whose idea was this? Can we get a more structured plan about: a) What the installation system would entail b) A mock-up of what it'd look like c) What packages would be installed for the desktop d) What desktop system would be 'supported' (personally, I like the freedom to choose anyway, perhaps including screenshots of nicely configured available WMs is something to do if we're going to *really* *truly* do this) e) Other related miscellany Once a preliminary plan is drawn up, we can start determining how and what to implement. I know several people here (including myself) would feel free to donate bandwidth to the cause. Hell, I'd even donate a good bit of coding time in C ;). How about we cut the crap and give structured criticisms instead of yakking about people flaming and then flaming back. The sarcasm is really unnecessary, folks. --Devon P.S. If you feel the need to deem any of this as 'assinine' or determine that it'd be constructive to throw some sarcastic replies back to me, feel free to NOT send the reply to the list. I'm sure that nobody else cares if you think I'm an idiot. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 18 10:11:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E809116A4B3 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail10.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.210]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7012D43FDD for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:11:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 8382 invoked from network); 18 Sep 2003 17:11:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender )encrypted SMTP for ; 18 Sep 2003 17:11:10 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8IHB76Y088504; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 13:11:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.4 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3F69CE7E.6050801@sitetronics.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 13:11:09 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: "Devon H. O'Dell" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Michal Pasternak cc: Nik Clayton Subject: Re: Sorry about sysinstall. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:11:13 -0000 On 18-Sep-2003 Devon H. O'Dell wrote: > Look, otherwise why don't we set up a freebsd-flames list? What we need > now is more productivity and less bitching/whining/moaning/etc. I'm sure > this has been said on numerous lists, numerous times. > > Whose idea was this? Can we get a more structured plan about: > > a) What the installation system would entail > b) A mock-up of what it'd look like > c) What packages would be installed for the desktop > d) What desktop system would be 'supported' (personally, I like the > freedom to choose anyway, perhaps including screenshots of nicely > configured available WMs is something to do if we're going to *really* > *truly* do this) > e) Other related miscellany I've done a) and b) before FWIW, having written the beginnings of a new installer using tvision. I've also actively worked on sysinstall and the release process for quite a while now, so I'm not a clueless nut on this particular problem space. To be honest, what we need is a more flexible installation process that can be extended to possibly have a graphical front end at some point in the future. Something kind of like libh but less ambitious (no new packaging system, no packages for the base system) and done incrementally. The basic thing I think it needs is to have embedded scripting. My personal preference at the time is to use python and C++ because I am somewhat familiar with those, but Tcl is another option as well. I think the first cut should basically just replace sysinstall's current functionality with some python scripts and appropriate C++ bindings. The next task would be to split sysinstall into sysinstall and sysconfig. Once that is done, then things can start getting more fancy in several directions. Having participated in libh in its early days, I must admit that I am somewhat skeptical that a new installer will be functional anytime soon. Mostly b/c people want to rewrite it from scratch each time rather than taking an incremental approach and the project dies before it gets to a functional milestone. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 18 15:35:28 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BB9816A4B3 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fubar.adept.org (fubar.adept.org [63.147.172.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D496F43FBD for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:35:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@adept.org) Received: by fubar.adept.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C66591524D; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fubar.adept.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29CF1524B for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:35:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hoskins To: advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200309171022.35724.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> Message-ID: <20030918152944.I59860@fubar.adept.org> References: <4BA256918ACE7449BD7896E65711C88B4A7F4C@1UPMC-MSX8.isdip.upmc.edu> <200309171022.35724.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: FreeBSD as a desktop OS was Re: Sorry X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:35:28 -0000 On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Johnson David wrote: > > So if we combine X with FreeBSD we've got a desktop OS :) > I'm using FreeBSD + XFree86 + KDE as my primary desktop at work and at > home. But no one believes me. Even when they see me calmly working at > my desk they don't believe me. let me guess -- they have pointy hair too. ;) seriously... for anyone that's doubtful (surely no one here), FreeBSD makes a great desktop OS. more apps and utils are available every day, emulation helps a lot, and there are more window managers in the ports collection than you can shake a stick at! -mrh -- From: "Spam Catcher" To: spam-catcher@adept.org Do NOT send email to the address listed above or you will be added to a blacklist! From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Sep 18 16:43:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F1E716A4B3 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fubar.adept.org (fubar.adept.org [63.147.172.249]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59E943FBD for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:43:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@adept.org) Received: by fubar.adept.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 925E51524D; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fubar.adept.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918091524B for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:43:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hoskins To: advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20030917230919.GA8428@pasternak.w.lub.pl> Message-ID: <20030918163741.M76883@fubar.adept.org> References: <20030917160654.52ceb56c.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> <200309171548.22742.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com> <20030917230919.GA8428@pasternak.w.lub.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:43:08 -0000 On Wed, 17 Sep 2003, Michal Pasternak wrote: > ... even if ${foo}'s way is the one, right way to do that? no such thing. it's best to look at all options, taking into account your specific tools/infrastructure, and do the best you can using all the resources at your command... wouldn't you agree? > > So definitely get a prototype of > > something working first. It's an easier sell that way. > You _won't_ make it right basing on "prototypes". but a working prototype, that does what you want, even if it's just integrating the Debian stuff you like, can certainly get "buy-in" from the people that matter. > > > Python seems a correct language to code such task in. Network > > > infrastructure would be powered by Twisted Python > > > (www.twistedmatrix.com), GUI would be done via py-gtk2. > > Stuff to be hashed out. Personally I think C/C++ is the best to code > > this in. > Well, personally, I don't. the best is to choose a language that doesn't require extra compilers/interpreters to be installed... of course, many _extremely_ useful tools (like cvsup and portupgrade) are written in less-than-standard languages... which probably goes to show the best lanauge is whatever language those willing to do the work prefer. that's a bit sugar coated, but it is a volunteer effort. -mrh -- From: "Spam Catcher" To: spam-catcher@adept.org Do NOT send email to the address listed above or you will be added to a blacklist! From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 19 03:02:13 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F8216A4B3; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E704402A; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:02:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfmp3.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.219.35] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A0I5R-0000TC-00; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:02:03 -0700 Message-ID: <3F6AD3C8.A9940709@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:00:40 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4c69ddab578b00cc7ec75d1e550cc73f4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Michal Pasternak cc: Nik Clayton Subject: Re: Sorry about sysinstall. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:02:13 -0000 John Baldwin wrote: > On 18-Sep-2003 Terry Lambert wrote: > > Nik Clayton wrote: > >> Then, if the customer has problems installing FreeBSd using your > >> installer, and comes to the project's mailing lists for help, they'll > >> be told to either contact your customer support, or use the project's > >> installer which you will have shipped as part of your product. [ ... ] > > Do you see the similarities between some hypothetical person > > with a third party FreeBSD installer that installs the same > > damn FreeBS plus the same damn packages, and having some well > > known FreeBSD problem biting them, being told to reinstall > > "using the project's installer", because *somehow*, "it *must* > > be the GUI version of sysintall that's biting them on the ass" > > when the battery monitor in KDE fails to work with their > > laptop? > > Try and find one instance on current, hackers, arch, etc. where > someone reported a bug and someone else asked them which installer > they used to install the box. There isn't one, because the project doesn't permit you to call something with a different installer by the name "FreeBSD". > > It's assinine to limit something because of a hypothetical > > situation that could be engineered against anyway, but even > > if it wasn't, will probably never occur. > > It's assinine to make bogus, unfounded statements about the > developers on the mailing lists and their responses to bug > reports. The existance of a separate installer which was not sysinstall in a distrubtion that was still called FreeBSD is why the situation in question is hypothetical. The statements were hypothetical, not unfounded, John. My point was that, even were the bar lowered from "must be byte for byte identical to FreeBSD Disc 1" to "post-install system must minimally contain byte-for byte identical commands and data as if a minimal FreeBSD install via sysinstall had been used", there's no loss of quality control on behalf of the project's management. My other example, which you snipped, was the FreeBSD "Live CD", which, since it's an already installed system on a CD that you are booting, gets around the FreeBSD restriction based on the distribution of uninstalled vs. pre-installed status. Why should the project care about anything but the post-install status of the system? If you *do* care about something more than the post-install state of the system, why aren't you pissed off about people who (1) ship "Live CD"-type products, or (2) ship machines with FreeBSD preinstalled on them? How would you feel about (3) HP/Compaq shipping a FreeBSD installation disk in their "Jump Start" format (i.e. using *their* "Jump Start" installer instead of FreeBSD's) with every HP/Compaq computer they sell from now on? Could they call it FreeBSD, even though it didn't use the FreeBSD installer? And if the FreeBSD Disc they shipped with the thing was "FreeBSD recovery Disc 1", instead of an identical copy of FreeBSD Disc 1? Is it a terrible thing that the Disc they ship came pre-configured correctly for the hardware it shipped with, instead of making the poor user futz around with XFree86 config files? To me, it doesn't matter *how* the FreeBSD got on the system, what matters is that it *be* FreeBSD, and not some mish-mash of something-not-FreeBSD and FreeBSD calling itself FreeBSD; *that* would cause problems. I really don't care if FreeBSD got installed because someone waved a magic wand over their computer. In fact, I'd prefer it: I'd buy a wand for myself, and visit every computer store in a 100 mile radius. 8-) 8-). -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 19 03:19:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6091016A4B3; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amsfep11-int.chello.nl (amsfep11-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7455243FAF; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:19:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com ([213.46.142.207]) by amsfep11-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with ESMTP id <20030919101944.GIGJ4496.amsfep11-int.chello.nl@sitetronics.com>; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:19:44 +0200 Message-ID: <3F6AD7F4.9060304@sitetronics.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:18:28 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030820 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert References: <3F6AD3C8.A9940709@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3F6AD3C8.A9940709@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Michal Pasternak cc: Nik Clayton cc: John Baldwin Subject: Re: Sorry about sysinstall. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:19:47 -0000 Terry Lambert wrote: >John Baldwin wrote: > > > [big snip of irrelevant stuff] > >To me, it doesn't matter *how* the FreeBSD got on the system, >what matters is that it *be* FreeBSD, and not some mish-mash >of something-not-FreeBSD and FreeBSD calling itself FreeBSD; >*that* would cause problems. > >I really don't care if FreeBSD got installed because someone >waved a magic wand over their computer. > >In fact, I'd prefer it: I'd buy a wand for myself, and visit >every computer store in a 100 mile radius. 8-) 8-). > >-- Terry > > Doesn't matter to me either, so what's the problem? :) A true FreeBSD install is everything in /usr/src (with parts such as sendmail or BIND optionally disabled) and optional packages. So (as we all know), FreeBSD is by definition an Operating Environment (kernel *and* userland). As I see it, installing FreeBSD with a can of Spam is valid, as long as the kernel and userland in /usr/src are in-tact. From what I can tell, we'd be prettifying the install process and just selecting a couple of extra default packages (doing some good security auditing of course)... so there's no equivocation that this isn't FreeBSD... it's FreeBSD with a couple of packages selected by default (which, admittedly, one can do with the current installer). There's also no reason we can't make the installer also able to install a "server" set up. Every "pretty" Linux distro does it; I don't see why we shouldn't (considering that's what we already do by default, heh). So, what I see here is that we all have the same ideas about what this should be, we're just saying it different ways and misinterpreting it and the like, then bitching at each other ;). I think that we should now be bitching more about what default settings to use than if we're talking about the same thing, though -- that seems clear to me. If I'm wrong, hit me in the head with a frying pan and tell me ;) --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 19 03:24:37 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92FB716A4B3 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dryctnath.mmu.ac.uk (dryctnath.mmu.ac.uk [149.170.190.134]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0706443FD7 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:24:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from p.robinson@mmu.ac.uk) Received: from agena.mmu.ac.uk ([149.170.168.195]) by dryctnath.mmu.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 1A0IRA-0007NR-00; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:24:28 +0100 Received: from MMU-HSS-AGENA/SpoolDir by agena.mmu.ac.uk (Mercury 1.48); 19 Sep 03 11:24:28 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by MMU-HSS-AGENA (Mercury 1.48); 19 Sep 03 11:24:26 +0100 Received: from PRGMMITER (149.170.101.200) by agena.mmu.ac.uk (Mercury 1.48) with ESMTP; 19 Sep 03 11:24:19 +0100 From: "Paul Robinson" To: "'Terry Lambert'" , "'Johnson David'" Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:24:19 +0100 Message-ID: <001301c37e98$2f841560$6c01a8c0@MITERDOMAIN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3F698080.474EB847@mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: 'Vulpes Velox' Subject: RE: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:24:37 -0000 Terry Lambert wrote: > I also think that this is 100% incompatible with installs onto > headless boxes with serial consoles, and that you can't really > reconcile the two approaches in the same distribution without > multiple installation disc's. This means regular CD's and not > a DVD, or it means a seperate distribution from the WC CDROM > one. That's funny. Sun are able to do headless installs over an entire server room, AND have a graphical installer when you're sat in front of the box, and they don't need to have separate distribution CDs. It must be magic! :-) > This is also not reconcilable with minimal installs, which do > not have the ability to run a big graphical app. Yup. Several months ago, my interest in installers piqued. I am now obsessed with them, because it also requires an understanding of upgrade processes, patching, the whole shebang. It's one of the few things the BSDs don't actually do particularly well - it works, but not brilliantly. Those who seek "a graphical installer" miss the point by miles. I now have hundreds of notes on this that I'm going to assemble into some sort of mini-paper and then a high-level functional design for the "perfect" installer. Then a roadmap for development, and then hopefully some devs who have more current experience of the scary coding required will get an interest. I know I've been saying this for months now, but really, you can expect to see something on that soon. I actually really like some aspects of the DragonFly plan. It has lots of faults, but it has that kind of weird Unixy feel by using existing tools combined in an interesting way. They plan to write the installer code in ultra-easy-to-change PHP4, serve it via Apache for remote network installs, and on the local console you just use links -g with your graphics guys just needing to edit HTML and GIFs. You then have an easily customisable, brandable installation system. It doesn't address the package management issues they want to, and I can see security problems from miles away, but it's innovative. It's certainly not something I've seen discussed elsewhere. Anyway, this is about to bikeshed. We can all see it. So let's stop now for a little bit. I promise within a month a mailing list away from here where you can rip this to shreds and bikeshed as much as you want. :-) -- Paul Robinson From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 19 03:25:46 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F49916A4B3; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amsfep14-int.chello.nl (amsfep14-int.chello.nl [213.46.243.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2107843F3F; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:25:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dodell@sitetronics.com) Received: from sitetronics.com ([213.46.142.207]) by amsfep14-int.chello.nl (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with ESMTP id <20030919102512.PUFU5521.amsfep14-int.chello.nl@sitetronics.com>; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:25:12 +0200 Message-ID: <3F6AD93D.3020702@sitetronics.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:23:57 +0200 From: "Devon H. O'Dell" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030820 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Devon H. O'Dell" References: <3F6AD3C8.A9940709@mindspring.com> <3F6AD7F4.9060304@sitetronics.com> In-Reply-To: <3F6AD7F4.9060304@sitetronics.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Michal Pasternak cc: Nik Clayton cc: John Baldwin Subject: Re: Sorry about sysinstall. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:25:46 -0000 [snip] > selecting a couple of extra default packages (doing some good security > auditing of course)... so there's no equivocation that this isn't s/isn't/is/ ;) Before there's any more confusion... --Devon From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 19 04:15:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F24016A4B3 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net (firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.247]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 423E443FE1 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:15:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2ivfmp3.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.247.219.35] helo=mindspring.com) by firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A0JDn-0005Qy-00; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:14:44 -0700 Message-ID: <3F6AE4C7.5A29B6D2@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:13:11 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson References: <001301c37e98$2f841560$6c01a8c0@MITERDOMAIN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a4c805553f8f2c54091a6e65e83e2a59d6548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: 'Johnson David' cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: 'Vulpes Velox' Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:15:04 -0000 Paul Robinson wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > I also think that this is 100% incompatible with installs onto > > headless boxes with serial consoles, and that you can't really > > reconcile the two approaches in the same distribution without > > multiple installation disc's. This means regular CD's and not > > a DVD, or it means a seperate distribution from the WC CDROM > > one. > > That's funny. Sun are able to do headless installs over an entire server > room, AND have a graphical installer when you're sat in front of the > box, and they don't need to have separate distribution CDs. It must be > magic! :-) I guess if you think "controlling the set of hardware you have to consider" is "magic", then it's "magic". For any given PC, however, FreeBSD can not know 100% reliably if it is a headless machine or not, since the hardware implementation is not uniform enough that this information can be obtained reliably. Unlike Sun Hardware. > > This is also not reconcilable with minimal installs, which do > > not have the ability to run a big graphical app. > > Yup. Several months ago, my interest in installers piqued. I am now > obsessed with them, because it also requires an understanding of upgrade > processes, patching, the whole shebang. It's one of the few things the > BSDs don't actually do particularly well - it works, but not > brilliantly. Yes. > Those who seek "a graphical installer" miss the point by miles. Technically, this is the -advocacy list, not the -install list. 8-). What this basically means is that we are interested in seeing FreeBSD advocated, and one way to do this is to build up the installed base in any way possible. One of the ways to do *that* is to make it as painless as possible to do an install for a first time user trying to get their feet wet, and if you are one of those people, sysinstall is not your friend, and it's not the face the project should be putting forward to represent it. In other words, sysinstall might be a nice person when you get to know it, but it makes a *lousy* first impression. > I now have hundreds of notes on this that I'm going to assemble > into some sort of mini-paper and then a high-level functional design for > the "perfect" installer. Then a roadmap for development, and then > hopefully some devs who have more current experience of the scary coding > required will get an interest. I know I've been saying this for months > now, but really, you can expect to see something on that soon. "Real Soon Now(tm)". 8-) 8-). > I actually really like some aspects of the DragonFly plan. It has lots > of faults, but it has that kind of weird Unixy feel by using existing > tools combined in an interesting way. They plan to write the installer > code in ultra-easy-to-change PHP4, serve it via Apache for remote > network installs, and on the local console you just use links -g with > your graphics guys just needing to edit HTML and GIFs. You then have an > easily customisable, brandable installation system. It doesn't address > the package management issues they want to, and I can see security > problems from miles away, but it's innovative. It's certainly not > something I've seen discussed elsewhere. > > Anyway, this is about to bikeshed. We can all see it. So let's stop now > for a little bit. I promise within a month a mailing list away from here > where you can rip this to shreds and bikeshed as much as you want. :-) You may also want to move discussion to the -install list. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 19 08:07:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19BB616A4B3 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao06.cox.net (lakemtao06.cox.net [68.1.17.115]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC35A43F85 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:07:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com) Received: from fortytwo ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao06.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20030919150640.UMVD4662.lakemtao06.cox.net@fortytwo>; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:06:40 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:05:39 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: "Mike King" Message-Id: <20030919100539.0ded1c00.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <0F3177E4824EC94698BAA43AF73D1BC7C761@hercules.ocsny.com> References: <0F3177E4824EC94698BAA43AF73D1BC7C761@hercules.ocsny.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: Johnson David cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org cc: Vulpes Velox Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:07:02 -0000 Cool, how is that going? On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:13:50 -0400 "Mike King" wrote: > I am installing mailman onto one of our mail servers right now, providing all > goes as planned we will be able to relocate to a new list shortly... > > > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org on behalf of Johnson David > Sent: Wed 9/17/2003 6:39 PM > To: Vulpes Velox; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Desktop FreeBSD > > > > On Wednesday 17 September 2003 02:06 pm, Vulpes Velox wrote: > > > Should this possibly be moved to another list and if so which one? > > If anyone can set up a separate mailing list, that would probably be > best. I fear -chat high volume traffic. yahoo groups suck IHMO, and I > wouldn't join one if I had to set up an account. google groups isn't > too bad, but still subpar. > > David > > p.s. I'm going on vacation starting Saturday, and will be suspending my > -advocacy subscription for the duration. So cc me to make sure I get > any appropriate messages. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 19 08:09:11 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D93A016A4BF for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakemtao07.cox.net (lakemtao07.cox.net [68.1.17.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4323543FE1 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:09:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com) Received: from fortytwo ([68.109.49.234]) by lakemtao07.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20030919150821.WASO15705.lakemtao07.cox.net@fortytwo>; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:08:21 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:07:10 -0500 From: Vulpes Velox To: "Mike King" Message-Id: <20030919100710.617c8fcf.kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com> In-Reply-To: <0F3177E4824EC94698BAA43AF73D1BC7C75F@hercules.ocsny.com> References: <0F3177E4824EC94698BAA43AF73D1BC7C75F@hercules.ocsny.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry. X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:09:12 -0000 Cool :) On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:32:43 -0400 "Mike King" wrote: > Off My Server... > > In any case, the company I work for is amoung other things an ISP, and we rely > quite heavily on fBSD. So long as we don't abuse the usage, I can arrange it > so that we can host here for the time being. possibly even drop a box in our > mfn colospace. It seems a good way to give back to the BSD community that has > given me so much in the past, and I expect in the future as well. > > Ultimately I would love to have a west cost mirror, so oms is probably a good > choice for that as well, of course I am assuming they on the other cost...;-) > > cheers, > m > > by the by are my messages making it out to the list or just locally? Have not seen the last two come in from the list. > ________________________________ > > From: Vulpes Velox [mailto:kitbsdlist2@HotPOP.com] > Sent: Thu 9/18/2003 12:22 AM > To: Mike King > Cc: Matt Olander; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Sorry. > > > > Cool, either sounds like they could be interesting. Btw who is OMS? > > But yeah Mike, that sounds like it could be a good start. > > Is there any one out there that would be interested in helping out with > html/whatever? > > On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:07:22 -0400 > "Mike King" wrote: > > > bw and hardware shall not be a problem to start. I can certainly arrange for > > > > both the time being. fBSD5.1 + apache2+ php4 + mysql good enough to get > > rolling? Just let me know who's going to get access and from where. > > > > In fact why don't we put a call out for project helpers? Desginers? Admins? > > et cettera....then we can plug some people into teams and come up with a few > > > > designs picking best bits from each and start producing? > > > > Once things take off then and we have some interest then we can worry about > > bigger hosting. > > > > Cheers, > > Mikel King > > CIO/CTO > > Optimized Compter Solutions, INC. > > 39 West Fourteenth Street > > Second Floor > > New York, NY 10011-7489 > > www.ocsny.com > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org on behalf of Matt Olander > > Sent: Wed 9/17/2003 1:46 PM > > To: Vulpes Velox > > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > > Subject: Re: Sorry. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 17, 2003 at 12:40:11PM -0500, Vulpes Velox wrote: > > > It all ready does this great. :) If any thing starting to push FreeBSD > > > as a desktop OS too, besides a server only OS would be good. I personally > > > would love to do it if I had the bandwidth or a host for the project. > > > > > > If any one else is interested in this, I would really be interested in > > > getting together to discuss it and seeing what can be done about it. > > > > > > I personally would love to work on creating a desktop version of FreeBSD > > > which uses a bit of scripting to install some default packages or > > > whatever... > > > > I'm sure I could get OMS to give us hosting and some equipment for that. > > > > -matt