From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 14 12:05:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53B1F37B401 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genius.tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A623043F85 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:05:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@genius.tao.org.uk) Received: by genius.tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id F01284A7C; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:05:14 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:05:14 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030714190514.GA3270@genius.tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: Importing 'mstohz' from NetBSD. X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:05:29 -0000 --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It looks like NetBSD have a net function defined in the kernel. --- param.h 2002/03/17 19:43:07 1.137 +++ param.h 2002/04/05 18:27:57 1.138 @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@ -/* $NetBSD: param.h,v 1.136 2002/03/09 01:42:13 thorpej Exp $ */ +/* $NetBSD: param.h,v 1.137 2002/03/17 19:43:07 atatat Exp $ */ =20 /*- * Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1993 @@ -274,5 +274,20 @@ #ifndef UBC_NWINS #define UBC_NWINS 1024 #endif + +#ifdef _KERNEL +/* + * macro to convert from milliseconds to hz without integer overflow + * Default version using only 32bits arithmetics. + * 64bit port can define 64bit version in their + * 0x20000 is safe for hz < 20000 + */ +#ifndef mstohz +#define mstohz(ms) \ + (__predict_false((ms) >=3D 0x20000) ? \ + ((ms +0u) / 1000u) * hz : \ + ((ms +0u) * hz) / 1000u) +#endif +#endif /* _KERNEL */ =20 #endif /* !_SYS_PARAM_H_ */ They have replaced TICKS_TO_HZ with calls to 'mstohz' in the usb stack as well as in other places. Is this something that we want to do also? Joe --=20 Josef Karthauser (joe@tao.org.uk) http://www.josef-k.net/ FreeBSD (cvs meister, admin and hacker) http://www.uk.FreeBSD.org/ Physics Particle Theory (student) http://www.pact.cpes.sussex.ac.uk/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D An eclectic mix of fact an= d theory. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAj8S/uoACgkQXVIcjOaxUBaKHgCfVLa4RfUMCoCBfN0aKmqWlpZ3 rwwAnRizAO3TlWVsZ/zGmKtwwTNAyTC3 =bUOR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 14 14:53:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 336D537B401 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.pair.com (relay.pair.com [209.68.1.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A0F843F85 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:53:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from silby@silby.com) Received: (qmail 25907 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2003 21:53:29 -0000 Received: from niwun.pair.com (HELO localhost) (209.68.2.70) by relay.pair.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2003 21:53:29 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 209.68.2.70 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:53:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Mike Silbersack To: arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030714164426.R8225@odysseus.silby.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: 4.x mbuf binary compatibility; can it be broken? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:53:31 -0000 In the process of hunting down reported panics in xl_newbuf, I've come to the conclusion that the panics are a result of mbuf cluster refcounts overflowing. This is not too surprising, as we use an array of chars to store the refcounts. (-current uses ints, and doesn't have this problem.) It's easy enough to switch from a char to an int array in 4.x to fix the problem there, but there is a problem: Our friendly mbuf macros (MCLALLOC and MCLFREE) manipulate the refcount. This means that 3rd party modules which use the macros will no longer work properly. Hence, the question posed on the subject line. Aside from putting hacks in many of the mbuf functions so that they avoid reference counts growing into the danger zone, there's no solution to the problem that I can see. So, what's our policy on ABI breakage for modules? It'd be nice to ignore this problem, but the xl-related PRs filed which seem to describe this exact problem are too numerous to ignore. (No, this isn't if_xl's fault; it's simply a victim because it properly uses its descriptor lists, thereby using mbuf cluster refcounts rather than packet copies as many cheaper NICs are required to do.) Thanks, Mike "Silby" Silbersack From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 14 15:04:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FA9037B401; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au (mailman.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.16]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B70F943F93; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:04:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bde@zeta.org.au) Received: from gamplex.bde.org (katana.zip.com.au [61.8.7.246]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3p2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA02746; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:04:02 +1000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:04:00 +1000 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: bde@gamplex.bde.org To: Josef Karthauser In-Reply-To: <20030714190514.GA3270@genius.tao.org.uk> Message-ID: <20030715072847.S9776@gamplex.bde.org> References: <20030714190514.GA3270@genius.tao.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing 'mstohz' from NetBSD. X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:04:06 -0000 On Mon, 14 Jul 2003, Josef Karthauser wrote: > It looks like NetBSD have a net function defined in the kernel. > > --- param.h 2002/03/17 19:43:07 1.137 > +++ param.h 2002/04/05 18:27:57 1.138 > @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@ > -/* $NetBSD: param.h,v 1.136 2002/03/09 01:42:13 thorpej Exp $ */ > +/* $NetBSD: param.h,v 1.137 2002/03/17 19:43:07 atatat Exp $ */ > > /*- > * Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1993 > @@ -274,5 +274,20 @@ > #ifndef UBC_NWINS > #define UBC_NWINS 1024 > #endif > + > +#ifdef _KERNEL > +/* > + * macro to convert from milliseconds to hz without integer overflow > + * Default version using only 32bits arithmetics. > + * 64bit port can define 64bit version in their > + * 0x20000 is safe for hz < 20000 > + */ > +#ifndef mstohz > +#define mstohz(ms) \ > + (__predict_false((ms) >= 0x20000) ? \ > + ((ms +0u) / 1000u) * hz : \ > + ((ms +0u) * hz) / 1000u) > +#endif > +#endif /* _KERNEL */ > > #endif /* !_SYS_PARAM_H_ */ > > They have replaced TICKS_TO_HZ with calls to 'mstohz' in the usb stack > as well as in other places. Is this something that we want to do also? I think you mean a new function that replaces the usb-specific macro MS_TO_TICKS() by general interface named mstohz(). (The new interface is no different except for its name, but its implementation doesn't give undefined behaviour on overflow.) I think the new interface should be kept in usb for now. The kernel has to many representations of times, and milliseconds is not particularly common, convenient or good. The macro shouldn't be defined in since it is not a parameter; it is only defined there to give it global scope. I wouldn't bother micro-optimizing it, including making it a macro instead of a function; it is probably not needed in [m]any fast paths, and the multiplications and divisions in it probably take longer than function a call. Anyway, we don't bother micro-optimizing the similar tvtohz() function. NetBSD doesn't seem to have tvtohz(), but it has the slightly different hzto() function with a similar implementation optimized for correctness more than speed. The non-(time-)optimization of these functions hasn't proved to be noticeable. tvtohz() is more than slightly easier to use than hzto(); mstohz() can easily be implemented on top of hzto() by converting from millseconds to a timeval and passing the timeval to tvtohz(). This would give a very correct implementation in a simple way at some cost in efficiency. Starting from scratch, I would use common units much smaller than a 1/hz tick or a millisecond for most times in the kernel. Old interfaces like timeout() still get some benefits on some machines by using only 32-bit counters, but these benefits will become negative when 32-bit machine go away. Bruce From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 14 15:18:06 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE46E37B404 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9FF43FD7 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:18:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from interjet.elischer.org ([12.233.125.100]) by attbi.com (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2003071422175801300njn74e>; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:17:58 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA78705; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:17:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: Mike Silbersack In-Reply-To: <20030714164426.R8225@odysseus.silby.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 4.x mbuf binary compatibility; can it be broken? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:18:07 -0000 On Mon, 14 Jul 2003, Mike Silbersack wrote: > > In the process of hunting down reported panics in xl_newbuf, I've come to > the conclusion that the panics are a result of mbuf cluster refcounts > overflowing. This is not too surprising, as we use an array of chars to > store the refcounts. (-current uses ints, and doesn't have this problem.) > > It's easy enough to switch from a char to an int array in 4.x to fix the > problem there, but there is a problem: Our friendly mbuf macros (MCLALLOC > and MCLFREE) manipulate the refcount. This means that 3rd party modules > which use the macros will no longer work properly. > As the user of a 3rd party driver (binary only) PLEASE don't do this.. How does it get 255+ references? > Hence, the question posed on the subject line. Aside from putting hacks > in many of the mbuf functions so that they avoid reference counts growing > into the danger zone, there's no solution to the problem that I can see. > > So, what's our policy on ABI breakage for modules? It'd be nice to ignore > this problem, but the xl-related PRs filed which seem to describe this > exact problem are too numerous to ignore. (No, this isn't if_xl's fault; > it's simply a victim because it properly uses its descriptor lists, > thereby using mbuf cluster refcounts rather than packet copies as many > cheaper NICs are required to do.) > > Thanks, > > Mike "Silby" Silbersack > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 14 15:45:10 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5304137B401 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genius.tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A24E843FA3 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:45:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@genius.tao.org.uk) Received: by genius.tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 475514AA7; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:44:56 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:44:56 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Bruce Evans Message-ID: <20030714224456.GC23148@genius.tao.org.uk> References: <20030714190514.GA3270@genius.tao.org.uk> <20030715072847.S9776@gamplex.bde.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ctP54qlpMx3WjD+/" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030715072847.S9776@gamplex.bde.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing 'mstohz' from NetBSD. X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:45:10 -0000 --ctP54qlpMx3WjD+/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 08:04:00AM +1000, Bruce Evans wrote: > On Mon, 14 Jul 2003, Josef Karthauser wrote: >=20 > Starting from scratch, I would use common units much smaller than a > 1/hz tick or a millisecond for most times in the kernel. Old interfaces > like timeout() still get some benefits on some machines by using only > 32-bit counters, but these benefits will become negative when 32-bit > machine go away. >=20 Thanks for your insight Bruce. I'll define it locally to the usb stack then. Cheers, Joe --=20 Josef Karthauser (joe@tao.org.uk) http://www.josef-k.net/ FreeBSD (cvs meister, admin and hacker) http://www.uk.FreeBSD.org/ Physics Particle Theory (student) http://www.pact.cpes.sussex.ac.uk/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D An eclectic mix of fact an= d theory. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --ctP54qlpMx3WjD+/ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAj8TMmcACgkQXVIcjOaxUBYRqQCgtJ4oCf+zdS5IZn1F4DzS44Gk RWMAnjFkj7ax67wKnUvtFCjbwyTOCBMQ =BoUB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ctP54qlpMx3WjD+/-- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 14 17:20:49 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3AED37B401 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.pair.com (relay.pair.com [209.68.1.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0665443F93 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:20:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from silby@silby.com) Received: (qmail 65280 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2003 00:20:47 -0000 Received: from niwun.pair.com (HELO localhost) (209.68.2.70) by relay.pair.com with SMTP; 15 Jul 2003 00:20:47 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 209.68.2.70 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:20:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Mike Silbersack To: Julian Elischer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030714191735.Y8225@odysseus.silby.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 4.x mbuf binary compatibility; can it be broken? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 00:20:50 -0000 On Mon, 14 Jul 2003, Julian Elischer wrote: > On Mon, 14 Jul 2003, Mike Silbersack wrote: > > > > > In the process of hunting down reported panics in xl_newbuf, I've come to > > the conclusion that the panics are a result of mbuf cluster refcounts > > overflowing. This is not too surprising, as we use an array of chars to > > store the refcounts. (-current uses ints, and doesn't have this problem.) > > > > It's easy enough to switch from a char to an int array in 4.x to fix the > > problem there, but there is a problem: Our friendly mbuf macros (MCLALLOC > > and MCLFREE) manipulate the refcount. This means that 3rd party modules > > which use the macros will no longer work properly. > > > > As the user of a 3rd party driver (binary only) > PLEASE don't do this.. > > How does it get 255+ references? I don't know exactly at this point. I can reproduce the situation at will with (in kernel) test code, but I don't know what exactly causes it in the wild. Given that increasing the ref count limit is so easy, I was hoping to avoid spending time tracking down one degenerate case. :) Mike "Silby" Silbersack From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 15 04:33:58 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04CEC37B401 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 04:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tcoip.com.br (erato.tco.net.br [200.220.254.10]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E2D843F3F for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 04:33:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@tcoip.com.br) Received: from tcoip.com.br ([10.0.2.6]) by mail.tcoip.com.br (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h6FBXnw16362; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:33:50 -0300 Message-ID: <3F13E69D.3050001@tcoip.com.br> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:33:49 -0300 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030702 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, pt-br, ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Silbersack References: <20030714164426.R8225@odysseus.silby.com> In-Reply-To: <20030714164426.R8225@odysseus.silby.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 4.x mbuf binary compatibility; can it be broken? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:33:58 -0000 Mike Silbersack wrote: > In the process of hunting down reported panics in xl_newbuf, I've come to > the conclusion that the panics are a result of mbuf cluster refcounts > overflowing. This is not too surprising, as we use an array of chars to > store the refcounts. (-current uses ints, and doesn't have this problem.) > > It's easy enough to switch from a char to an int array in 4.x to fix the > problem there, but there is a problem: Our friendly mbuf macros (MCLALLOC > and MCLFREE) manipulate the refcount. This means that 3rd party modules > which use the macros will no longer work properly. > > Hence, the question posed on the subject line. Aside from putting hacks > in many of the mbuf functions so that they avoid reference counts growing > into the danger zone, there's no solution to the problem that I can see. > > So, what's our policy on ABI breakage for modules? It'd be nice to ignore > this problem, but the xl-related PRs filed which seem to describe this > exact problem are too numerous to ignore. (No, this isn't if_xl's fault; > it's simply a victim because it properly uses its descriptor lists, > thereby using mbuf cluster refcounts rather than packet copies as many > cheaper NICs are required to do.) I think that breaking the ABI at the winter of 4.x is a bad idea. It would be bad at it's spring, but given the seriousness of the matter, perhaps a necessity. At this point, though? Dubious proposition... -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) Gerencia de Operacoes Divisao de Comunicacao de Dados Coordenacao de Seguranca VIVO Centro Oeste Norte Fones: 55-61-313-7654/Cel: 55-61-9618-0904 E-mail: Daniel.Capo@tco.net.br Daniel.Sobral@tcoip.com.br dcs@tcoip.com.br Outros: dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@notorious.bsdconspiracy.net To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing. -- Elbert Hubbard From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 15 08:47:57 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2A8337B401 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.pair.com (relay.pair.com [209.68.1.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 04ACE43F3F for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:47:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from silby@silby.com) Received: (qmail 87037 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2003 15:47:55 -0000 Received: from niwun.pair.com (HELO localhost) (209.68.2.70) by relay.pair.com with SMTP; 15 Jul 2003 15:47:55 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 209.68.2.70 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:47:23 -0500 (CDT) From: Mike Silbersack To: "Daniel C. Sobral" In-Reply-To: <3F13E69D.3050001@tcoip.com.br> Message-ID: <20030715104206.C14114@odysseus.silby.com> References: <20030714164426.R8225@odysseus.silby.com> <3F13E69D.3050001@tcoip.com.br> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 4.x mbuf binary compatibility; can it be broken? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:47:58 -0000 On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > I think that breaking the ABI at the winter of 4.x is a bad idea. It > would be bad at it's spring, but given the seriousness of the matter, > perhaps a necessity. At this point, though? Dubious proposition... > > -- > Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) Well, as it turns out, the machine which is actively exhibiting the problem has had a NIC swap is went into active service, so I won't be getting the test results which might justify an ABI breakage too soon. In the meantime, I've been looking more, and it appears that I should be able to hack around the limit without breaking the ABI. (There may be a performance penalty, but it should be extremely minor.) Mike "Silby" Silbersack From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 15 09:00:34 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B094437B404 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comp.chem.msu.su (comp-ext.chem.msu.su [158.250.32.157]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CA4843FA3 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:00:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yar@comp.chem.msu.su) Received: from comp.chem.msu.su (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by comp.chem.msu.su (8.12.3p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h6FG0Pgb044336 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 20:00:25 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from yar@comp.chem.msu.su) Received: (from yar@localhost) by comp.chem.msu.su (8.12.3p2/8.12.3/Submit) id h6FG0P0F044332 for arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 20:00:25 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from yar) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 20:00:25 +0400 From: Yar Tikhiy To: arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030715160024.GA43108@comp.chem.msu.su> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i Subject: Interrupted connect(2) and errno issue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:00:35 -0000 Hi folks, Background: A blocking connect(2) call will be interrupted by any delivered signal, returning EINTR. Despites the call interrupted, the connection establishment will be carried out asynchronously, as though the socket were in non-blocking mode. The issue: Further calls to connect(2) on such a socket will return EADDRINUSE, while those on a non-blocking socket with connecting in progress will return EALREADY. Is there a reason for this difference? If there isn't, what do you think of the attached patch? I believe it will improve our conformance to POSIX. BTW, this patch could have been cleaner and not involved a new flag variable if we were able to drop the splx() stuff, which is anyway a no-op in CURRENT AFAIK. -- Yar --- uipc_syscalls.c.orig Thu Jun 19 07:55:01 2003 +++ uipc_syscalls.c Tue Jul 15 17:03:25 2003 @@ -480,11 +480,12 @@ { struct socket *so; int error, s; + int interrupted = 0; mtx_lock(&Giant); if ((error = fgetsock(td, fd, &so, NULL)) != 0) goto done2; - if ((so->so_state & SS_NBIO) && (so->so_state & SS_ISCONNECTING)) { + if (so->so_state & SS_ISCONNECTING) { error = EALREADY; goto done1; } @@ -503,6 +504,8 @@ s = splnet(); while ((so->so_state & SS_ISCONNECTING) && so->so_error == 0) { error = tsleep(&so->so_timeo, PSOCK | PCATCH, "connec", 0); + if (error == EINTR || error == ERESTART) + interrupted = 1; if (error) break; } @@ -512,7 +515,8 @@ } splx(s); bad: - so->so_state &= ~SS_ISCONNECTING; + if (!interrupted) + so->so_state &= ~SS_ISCONNECTING; if (error == ERESTART) error = EINTR; done1: %%% From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 15 09:59:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D791437B401 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 061C243F85 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:59:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h6FGxkVk085626; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:59:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.9/8.12.6/Submit) id h6F4LJCL082696; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:21:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200307150421.h6F4LJCL082696@apollo.backplane.com> To: Mike Silbersack References: <20030714191735.Y8225@odysseus.silby.com> cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Julian Elischer Subject: Re: 4.x mbuf binary compatibility; can it be broken? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:59:53 -0000 :> How does it get 255+ references? : :I don't know exactly at this point. I can reproduce the situation at will :with (in kernel) test code, but I don't know what exactly causes it in the :wild. : :Given that increasing the ref count limit is so easy, I was hoping to :avoid spending time tracking down one degenerate case. :) : :Mike "Silby" Silbersack If you just put a KASSERT() in for the 'reached 255' case the backtrace will have a good chance of containing the likely culprit. -Matt From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 15 09:59:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8F2537B404 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 039A343F3F for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:59:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h6FGxkVi085626; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 09:59:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.9/8.12.6/Submit) id h6F5K9Ls082923; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:20:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200307150520.h6F5K9Ls082923@apollo.backplane.com> To: Mike Silbersack References: <20030714191735.Y8225@odysseus.silby.com> cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Julian Elischer Subject: Re: 4.x mbuf binary compatibility; can it be broken? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:59:53 -0000 :> How does it get 255+ references? : :I don't know exactly at this point. I can reproduce the situation at will :with (in kernel) test code, but I don't know what exactly causes it in the :wild. : :Given that increasing the ref count limit is so easy, I was hoping to :avoid spending time tracking down one degenerate case. :) : :Mike "Silby" Silbersack It would be a good idea to make sure it isn't a runaway ref count. I may be missing something, but I don't see how the ref count could possibly reach 255 under any circumstances. mbufs using an mbuf cluster (M_EXT with ext_ref == NULL) bump the ref count, and duplicating an mbuf bumps the underlying cluster's ref count, and splitting an mbuf bumps the ref count, and that is pretty much it. Only m_copym() or m_copypacket() have any chance of legitimately increasing the ref count beyond 255. Only a KASSERT() will tell us who the likely candidate is. It could very well be that a ref count is being lost somewhere. -Matt From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 15 23:21:29 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A3C537B404 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:21:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF3343F85 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:21:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lc1c9.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.5.137] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19cffG-0002ok-00; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:21:23 -0700 Message-ID: <3F14EEA6.4AA8684C@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:20:22 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Dillon References: <200307150520.h6F5K9Ls082923@apollo.backplane.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a40e6fd06d60f4d00616125dde666ef6232601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Mike Silbersack cc: Julian Elischer Subject: Re: 4.x mbuf binary compatibility; can it be broken? X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 06:21:29 -0000 Matthew Dillon wrote: > It would be a good idea to make sure it isn't a runaway ref count. > > I may be missing something, but I don't see how the ref count could > possibly reach 255 under any circumstances. mbufs using an mbuf > cluster (M_EXT with ext_ref == NULL) bump the ref count, and > duplicating an mbuf bumps the underlying cluster's ref count, > and splitting an mbuf bumps the ref count, and that is pretty much it. > > Only m_copym() or m_copypacket() have any chance of legitimately > increasing the ref count beyond 255. Only a KASSERT() will tell us > who the likely candidate is. It could very well be that a ref count > is being lost somewhere. It should be possible to do this in a number of ways, assuming you are sending the same data out to multiple clients, in response to identical requests. It's really unlikely, though, and would require specific intent to get it that way. I agree with your suggestion for a KASSERT() on the increment so if it overflows, it crashes the caller. It's a really bad idea to hide an error like this, unless you can actually explain why the reference count is going so high in the first place. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 16 04:25:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E92937B401; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 04:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.imp.ch (mail.imp.ch [157.161.1.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7BC043FB1; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 04:25:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mb@imp.ch) Received: from cvs.imp.ch (cvs.imp.ch [157.161.4.9]) by mail.imp.ch (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h6GBP9DM045007; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:25:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from Martin.Blapp@imp.ch) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:25:09 +0200 (CEST) From: Martin Blapp To: murray@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030716131921.B9588@cvs.imp.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: dhclient-patch and ISC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:25:15 -0000 Hi, It seems that the development in the ISC-dhcpd is progressing very slowly. And it looks like I can merge my patch into the ISC repo in about one year, because they want to include it in the next ! mayor release, not the actual. Isn't there any way to include my (rather important) patch before 5.2 ? I'm even happy if I can commit it to 6.0, but just wait another year is a long time. It improves laptop live so much (and doesn't change the behavour for server or desktop machines and it works with wavelans. http://people.freebsd.org/~mbr/patches/dhclient-interfacepolling.diff Martin Martin Blapp, ------------------------------------------------------------------ ImproWare AG, UNIXSP & ISP, Zurlindenstrasse 29, 4133 Pratteln, CH Phone: +41 61 826 93 00 Fax: +41 61 826 93 01 PGP: PGP Fingerprint: B434 53FC C87C FE7B 0A18 B84C 8686 EF22 D300 551E ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 16 04:30:38 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A960F37B401 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 04:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.imp.ch (mail.imp.ch [157.161.1.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 968C743FA3 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 04:30:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mb@imp.ch) Received: from cvs.imp.ch (cvs.imp.ch [157.161.4.9]) by mail.imp.ch (8.12.6p2/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h6GBUZDM046488 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:30:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from Martin.Blapp@imp.ch) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:30:35 +0200 (CEST) From: Martin Blapp To: arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20030716131921.B9588@cvs.imp.ch> Message-ID: <20030716133002.C9588@cvs.imp.ch> References: <20030716131921.B9588@cvs.imp.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: dhclient-patch and ISC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:30:39 -0000 Sorry, accidently sent to the wrong place. I apologize. Martin From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jul 16 11:29:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E24F37B401 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from builder.freebsdmall.com (builder.freebsdmall.com [65.86.180.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6479A43F93 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:29:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from murray@builder.freebsdmall.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by builder.freebsdmall.com (8.12.9/8.11.6) id h6GITMoB029327; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:29:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from murray) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:29:21 -0700 From: Murray Stokely To: Martin Blapp Message-ID: <20030716112921.I215@freebsdmall.com> References: <20030716131921.B9588@cvs.imp.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030716131921.B9588@cvs.imp.ch>; from mb@imp.ch on Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 01:25:09PM +0200 X-GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/0E451F7D X-GPG-Key-Fingerprint: E2CA 411D DD44 53FD BB4B 3CB5 B4D7 10A2 0E45 1F7D cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: dhclient-patch and ISC X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 18:29:24 -0000 On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 01:25:09PM +0200, Martin Blapp wrote: > It seems that the development in the ISC-dhcpd is progressing very > slowly. Yes, it is. > Isn't there any way to include my (rather important) patch before 5.2 ? > I'm even happy if I can commit it to 6.0, but just wait another year is > a long time. Yes, I think it's worth just committting it and taking files off the vendor branch, if necessary. I thought I gave you my support to commit it to our tree months ago. - Murray From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 01:08:09 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1937937B401 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.93.134.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DEB143FE3 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:08:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6H885ju099234 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:08:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6H885NE099233 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:08:05 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.1-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD Group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Subject: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:08:09 -0000 This is a list of binaries that I don't feel should be part of /resuce as it's mission is to recover/rebuild a "broken" / [due to all the binaries being dynamic]. Is there justification for keeping them? - domainname, one does not need YP in the circumstances /rescue is meant to address. - date, one can use a watch if they really want to know it is 5am and their system is down. - sleep, this is what the admin wishes he was doing at 5am rather than trying to recover a borked system. The admin doesn't need the OS sleeping and delaying the repair. - adjkerntz, who cares if the date is wrong if you right to the FS (and you are on a PC and have Winloose on it also). At the least this should only be installed on i386. - comcontrol, I can't begin to imagine why one would need this to fix a borked /. - conscontrol, I can't begin to imagine why one would need this to fix a borked /. - growfs, how would growing / fix a borked /lib?? - ipfw & natd & ipf & ipfs & ipfstat & ipmon & ipnan, why would one needs these? /rescue is to fix a borked /, not replace PicoBSD. - nfsiod, to quote "It improves performance but is not required for correct operation." Recovering a borked / doesn't need to be high performance. - quotacheck, does one really want to enforce quota's on root, while he is trying direly to fix a borked /?? - shutdown, 'reboot' is sufficient when single user -- there are no other users on the system inform of the impending shutdown. - swapon, this is not needed to fix a whacked out /lib.... unless we add Emacs to /resuce. - wall, when single user (as one needs to be to fix a broked /) who is one going to communicate with?? - tar, pax (w/{bz,g}zip) can do everything GNU tar can. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 01:43:26 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76B0037B401 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cyberonic.com (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 575F643FAF for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:43:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (node-40244c0a.sfo.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.76.10]) by mail.cyberonic.com (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h6H9BQcU020438 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:11:26 -0400 Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.12.9/8.11.6) id h6H8hX5V077780 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:43:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:43:33 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030717084333.GB35337@funkthat.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:43:26 -0000 David O'Brien wrote this message on Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 01:08 -0700: > - ipfw & natd & ipf & ipfs & ipfstat & ipmon & ipnan, why would one needs > these? /rescue is to fix a borked /, not replace PicoBSD. ipfw I can see as useful. If you have a kernel that defaults to closed, and you need to access the network, then this is a problem. If we had a loader tunable to make a closed firewall open, then this wouldn't be needed, but then we introduce the fun security hole of /boot/loader.conf munging, which is minor... if someone can modify /boot/loader.conf, you have bigger fish to fry.. -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 01:46:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1345B37B401 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (pc1-cdif2-5-cust38.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.101.150.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58CD743F75 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:46:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.20) id 19d4P5-000FYg-U9 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:46:19 +0100 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:46:19 +0100 From: Ceri Davies To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030717084619.GS403@submonkey.net> References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030717084333.GB35337@funkthat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030717084333.GB35337@funkthat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Ceri Davies Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:46:24 -0000 On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 01:43:33AM -0700, John-Mark Gurney wrote: > David O'Brien wrote this message on Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 01:08 -0700: > > - ipfw & natd & ipf & ipfs & ipfstat & ipmon & ipnan, why would one needs > > these? /rescue is to fix a borked /, not replace PicoBSD. > > ipfw I can see as useful. If you have a kernel that defaults to closed, > and you need to access the network, then this is a problem. If we had > a loader tunable to make a closed firewall open, then this wouldn't be > needed, but then we introduce the fun security hole of /boot/loader.conf > munging, which is minor... if someone can modify /boot/loader.conf, you > have bigger fish to fry.. There's the net.inet.ip.fw.enable sysctl. I'm also dubious about /rescue/vi; does this actually work when / is hosed? Ceri -- From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 01:50:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D507637B401 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xorpc.icir.org (xorpc.icir.org [192.150.187.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F09343F93 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:50:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rizzo@xorpc.icir.org) Received: from xorpc.icir.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xorpc.icir.org (8.12.8p1/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h6H8oqkN046437; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:50:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rizzo@xorpc.icir.org) Received: (from rizzo@localhost) by xorpc.icir.org (8.12.8p1/8.12.3/Submit) id h6H8oqLk046436; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:50:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rizzo) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:50:52 -0700 From: Luigi Rizzo To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030717015052.B46015@xorpc.icir.org> References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030717084333.GB35337@funkthat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030717084333.GB35337@funkthat.com>; from gurney_j@efn.org on Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 01:43:33AM -0700 Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:50:53 -0000 On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 01:43:33AM -0700, John-Mark Gurney wrote: > David O'Brien wrote this message on Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 01:08 -0700: > > - ipfw & natd & ipf & ipfs & ipfstat & ipmon & ipnan, why would one needs > > these? /rescue is to fix a borked /, not replace PicoBSD. > > ipfw I can see as useful. If you have a kernel that defaults to closed, > and you need to access the network, then this is a problem. If we had actually, this is trivial to fix: sysctl net.inet.ip.fw.enable=0 > a loader tunable to make a closed firewall open, then this wouldn't be why does this need to be a loader tunable at all and not just an ordinary sysctl ? Just having the rights to issue the ipfw setsockopt() suffices to add a rule and effectively change the default behaviour. And this is (in terms of permissions) no different from issuing a sysctl. cheers luigi From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 01:54:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EA6237B401 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cyberonic.com (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4136C43F75 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:54:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (node-40244c0a.sfo.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.76.10]) by mail.cyberonic.com (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h6H9MVcU021674; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:22:31 -0400 Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.12.9/8.11.6) id h6H8sdGn078028; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:54:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:54:39 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Luigi Rizzo Message-ID: <20030717085439.GC35337@funkthat.com> Mail-Followup-To: Luigi Rizzo , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030717084333.GB35337@funkthat.com> <20030717015052.B46015@xorpc.icir.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030717015052.B46015@xorpc.icir.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 08:54:31 -0000 Luigi Rizzo wrote this message on Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 01:50 -0700: > On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 01:43:33AM -0700, John-Mark Gurney wrote: > > David O'Brien wrote this message on Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 01:08 -0700: > > > - ipfw & natd & ipf & ipfs & ipfstat & ipmon & ipnan, why would one needs > > > these? /rescue is to fix a borked /, not replace PicoBSD. > > > > ipfw I can see as useful. If you have a kernel that defaults to closed, > > and you need to access the network, then this is a problem. If we had > > actually, this is trivial to fix: > > sysctl net.inet.ip.fw.enable=0 I didn't know about this. :) My objection to removing it has been removed. :) I now support removing ipfw and friends (from /rescue). -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not." From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 02:43:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65B2D37B404 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 02:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.server.rpi.edu (smtp2.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 538FE43F85 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 02:43:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by smtp2.server.rpi.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6H9hCCx031628 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:43:12 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:43:10 -0400 To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org From: Garance A Drosihn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:43:14 -0000 At 1:08 AM -0700 7/17/03, David O'Brien wrote: >This is a list of binaries that I don't feel should be part >of /rescue as it's mission is to recover/rebuild a "broken" / >[due to all the binaries being dynamic]. Is there >justification for keeping them? >- date, one can use a watch if they really want to know it > is 5am and their system is down. In my experience, it is often useful to be able to keep timestamped logs during any system repair operation. They can be useful when you go to review what happened (at some later time, after you have caught up on your sleep). >- sleep, this is what the admin wishes he was doing at 5am > rather than trying to recover a borked system. The admin > doesn't need the OS sleeping and delaying the repair. For both 'date' and 'sleep', I would like to have them around just in case I run some script which happens to reference them. I admit this is just a "feel good" reason, I can't give a specific example where this would come up in the middle of repairing '/'. A far as the rest of the files in your list, I can't think of any reason I would need them to be in /rescue. That's just my opinion, of course. It does make sense to keep /rescue as small as possible. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 02:58:03 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A25A037B401; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 02:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout03.sul.t-online.com (mailout03.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A65B43F75; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 02:58:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from fwd04.aul.t-online.de by mailout03.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 19d5WS-0001kE-0G; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:58:00 +0200 Received: from Andro-Beta.Leidinger.net (X7CpAyZ-QerEt0-cpi6EeA5dQSjwxydSQMef71NRjtgVh8FJAaLYgr@[217.83.26.121]) by fmrl04.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 19d5WL-1mS9zM0; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:57:53 +0200 Received: from Magelan.Leidinger.net (Magelan [192.168.1.1]) h6H9vr9P001164; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:57:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from Magelan.Leidinger.net (netchild@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Magelan.Leidinger.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h6H9vsNc003590; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:57:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:57:54 +0200 From: Alexander Leidinger To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20030717115754.488e9909.Alexander@Leidinger.net> In-Reply-To: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.3claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Seen: false X-ID: X7CpAyZ-QerEt0-cpi6EeA5dQSjwxydSQMef71NRjtgVh8FJAaLYgr@t-dialin.net Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:58:03 -0000 On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:08:05 -0700 "David O'Brien" wrote: > - growfs, how would growing / fix a borked /lib?? Perhaps because / isn't large enough and it's needed to enlarge it to be able to install the necessary libs? > - swapon, this is not needed to fix a whacked out /lib.... unless we add > Emacs to /resuce. I can't come up with a scenario for this, but this doesn't mean there isn't one. Do you have a stronger reason than "I don't know how this could be useful"? Hmmm... perhaps mounting a mfs disk, untaring something to it, searching for the right files... whatever, I think we should keep it in /rescue, but I will be quiet if someone removes it. > - tar, pax (w/{bz,g}zip) can do everything GNU tar can. POLA, people use tar more often than pax. I know a lot of people which haven't ever used pax, but they know how to use tar very good. I agree with you about the other listed programs. Bye, Alexander. -- It's not a bug, it's tradition! http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net GPG fingerprint = C518 BC70 E67F 143F BE91 3365 79E2 9C60 B006 3FE7 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 03:36:22 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D3837B401 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 03:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xorpc.icir.org (xorpc.icir.org [192.150.187.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70D3043F93 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 03:36:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rizzo@xorpc.icir.org) Received: from xorpc.icir.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xorpc.icir.org (8.12.8p1/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h6HAaLkN052056; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 03:36:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rizzo@xorpc.icir.org) Received: (from rizzo@localhost) by xorpc.icir.org (8.12.8p1/8.12.3/Submit) id h6HAaL3v052055; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 03:36:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rizzo) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 03:36:21 -0700 From: Luigi Rizzo To: Garance A Drosihn Message-ID: <20030717033620.B51802@xorpc.icir.org> References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from drosih@rpi.edu on Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 05:43:10AM -0400 cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:36:22 -0000 On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 05:43:10AM -0400, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > At 1:08 AM -0700 7/17/03, David O'Brien wrote: > >This is a list of binaries that I don't feel should be part > >of /rescue as it's mission is to recover/rebuild a "broken" / > >[due to all the binaries being dynamic]. Is there > >justification for keeping them? This is a crunched binary, so space is really not a big issue (plus, the basic set of libraries is probably some 300-400Kb, so discussing about adding/removing components which take 2-3 KB such as date, sleep, comcontrol, conscontrol is just pointless in my opinion; just convenience should be enough to keep some things around). For ipfw/natd, i admit that they might be fatter than what one might want, but then again they might be useful in case you have to access the outside world to grab things. What do you save by removing them ? cheers luigi > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 06:06:12 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D1637B401 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 06:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DACCC43FA3 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 06:06:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6HD5pai063316 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:05:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)h6HD5pP8063313 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:05:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:05:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:06:12 -0000 On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, David O'Brien wrote: > - swapon, this is not needed to fix a whacked out /lib.... unless we add > Emacs to /resuce. My temptation would be to leave swapon -- it basically uses a single system call, and while I can't remember the circumstances, I have run into situations where I've really wanted to have swapspace on systems with less memory. Recovery operations often pull large amounts of file system through memory in various forms, which will certainly increase the memory pressure. Otherwise, I think things look pretty good. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 06:39:48 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E638737B405 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 06:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail8.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.208]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA6B943FDD for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 06:39:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: (qmail 32708 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2003 13:39:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender )encrypted SMTP for ; 17 Jul 2003 13:39:46 -0000 Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (zion.baldwin.cx [192.168.0.7]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6HDdiGI025669; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:39:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zion.baldwin.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6HDdiPg076411; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:39:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john@zion.baldwin.cx) Received: by zion.baldwin.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6HDdiGf076410; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:39:44 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: John-Mark Gurney Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:05:18 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030717015052.B46015@xorpc.icir.org> <20030717085439.GC35337@funkthat.com> In-Reply-To: <20030717085439.GC35337@funkthat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200307170902.20004.jhb@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:39:48 -0000 On Thursday 17 July 2003 04:54 am, John-Mark Gurney wrote: > Luigi Rizzo wrote this message on Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 01:50 -0700: > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 01:43:33AM -0700, John-Mark Gurney wrote: > > > David O'Brien wrote this message on Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 01:08 -0700: > > > > - ipfw & natd & ipf & ipfs & ipfstat & ipmon & ipnan, why would one > > > > needs these? /rescue is to fix a borked /, not replace PicoBSD. > > > > > > ipfw I can see as useful. If you have a kernel that defaults to > > > closed, and you need to access the network, then this is a problem. If > > > we had > > > > actually, this is trivial to fix: > > > > sysctl net.inet.ip.fw.enable=0 > > I didn't know about this. :) > > My objection to removing it has been removed. :) I now support removing > ipfw and friends (from /rescue). I believe that sysctl only affects ipfw, so people using ipfilter might still need ipf if ipfilter defaults to block as well. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 06:39:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE24537B405 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 06:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 181BB43F3F for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 06:39:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: (qmail 4343 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2003 13:39:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender )encrypted SMTP for ; 17 Jul 2003 13:39:50 -0000 Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (zion.baldwin.cx [192.168.0.7]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6HDdnGI025672; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:39:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: from zion.baldwin.cx (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zion.baldwin.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6HDdnPg076427; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:39:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from john@zion.baldwin.cx) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by zion.baldwin.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6HDdjHK076423; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:39:45 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Luigi Rizzo , Garance A Drosihn Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:06:51 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030717033620.B51802@xorpc.icir.org> In-Reply-To: <20030717033620.B51802@xorpc.icir.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200307170906.51902.jhb@FreeBSD.org> cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:39:53 -0000 On Thursday 17 July 2003 06:36 am, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 05:43:10AM -0400, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > > At 1:08 AM -0700 7/17/03, David O'Brien wrote: > > >This is a list of binaries that I don't feel should be part > > >of /rescue as it's mission is to recover/rebuild a "broken" / > > >[due to all the binaries being dynamic]. Is there > > >justification for keeping them? > > This is a crunched binary, so space is really not a big issue (plus, > the basic set of libraries is probably some 300-400Kb, so discussing > about adding/removing components which take 2-3 KB such as date, > sleep, comcontrol, conscontrol is just pointless in my opinion; > just convenience should be enough to keep some things around). > > For ipfw/natd, i admit that they might be fatter than what one might > want, but then again they might be useful in case you have to access > the outside world to grab things. What do you save by removing them ? I think this is an excellent point. David, can you provide actual numbers of how much removing each of these programs saves? -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 06:50:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7523837B401 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 06:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MX4.estpak.ee (ld3.estpak.ee [194.126.101.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E748343F93 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 06:50:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kalts@estpak.ee) Received: from kevad.internal (80-235-39-8-dsl.mus.estpak.ee [80.235.39.8]) by MX4.estpak.ee (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50999128033 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:47:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: by kevad.internal (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 355729A46B; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:50:41 +0300 (EEST) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:50:41 +0300 From: Vallo Kallaste To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030717135041.GB6651@kevad.internal> References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: kalts@estpak.ee List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:50:44 -0000 On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 01:08:05AM -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > - tar, pax (w/{bz,g}zip) can do everything GNU tar can. As someone said, people are accustomed to tar, it's in fingers. I like to use pax for copying directory hierarchies (pax -rw), but for every other task use tar. Will learn pax if needed, no problem. -- Vallo Kallaste From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 07:09:20 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 086B137B401 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 07:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.server.rpi.edu (smtp1.server.rpi.edu [128.113.2.1]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50B0843FB1 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 07:09:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.netel.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by smtp1.server.rpi.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6HE9E9t006051; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:09:15 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030717135041.GB6651@kevad.internal> References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030717135041.GB6651@kevad.internal> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:09:14 -0400 To: kalts@estpak.ee, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org From: Garance A Drosihn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . canit . ca) Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:09:20 -0000 At 4:50 PM +0300 7/17/03, Vallo Kallaste wrote: >On Thu, Jul 17, 2003, David O'Brien wrote: > >> - tar, pax (w/{bz,g}zip) can do everything GNU tar can. > >As someone said, people are accustomed to tar, it's in >fingers. I like to use pax for copying directory hierarchies >(pax -rw), but for every other task use tar. Will learn pax >if needed, no problem. 'tar' is programmed into my fingers too, but I must admit that I like the idea of limiting the amount of GNU-licensed bits in /rescue. I guess gzip needs to be there, is there anything else that's gnu-ish? [hopefully this is the last bit of paint that I will add to this potential bikeshed...] -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 09:07:07 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3809637B401 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.93.134.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B4943FA3 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:07:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6HG75ju046957; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:07:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6HG74JR046956; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:07:04 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Luigi Rizzo Message-ID: <20030717160704.GA46923@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030717033620.B51802@xorpc.icir.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030717033620.B51802@xorpc.icir.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.1-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD Group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:07:07 -0000 On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 03:36:21AM -0700, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > This is a crunched binary, so space is really not a big issue (plus, > the basic set of libraries is probably some 300-400Kb, so discussing > about adding/removing components which take 2-3 KB such as date, > sleep, comcontrol, conscontrol is just pointless in my opinion; > just convenience should be enough to keep some things around). > > For ipfw/natd, i admit that they might be fatter than what one might > want, but then again they might be useful in case you have to access > the outside world to grab things. What do you save by removing them ? Build time, build overhead, having to keep src/rescue/librescue in sync with the libs it takes from (things like -D, etc...), this isn't kitchen sink linux, complication of rescue Makefiles, . P.S. ipfw would be a lot more useful if the kernel-appl API were versioned. It isn't uncommon for the installed ipfw(8) to not work with a random kernel. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 09:09:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA5A37B401; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.93.134.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C82743F3F; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:09:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6HG9gju047007; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:09:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6HG9guE047006; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:09:42 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: John Baldwin Message-ID: <20030717160942.GB46923@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030717033620.B51802@xorpc.icir.org> <200307170906.51902.jhb@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200307170906.51902.jhb@FreeBSD.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.1-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD Group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:09:44 -0000 On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 09:06:51AM -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > > This is a crunched binary, so space is really not a big issue (plus, > > the basic set of libraries is probably some 300-400Kb, so discussing > > about adding/removing components which take 2-3 KB such as date, > > sleep, comcontrol, conscontrol is just pointless in my opinion; > > just convenience should be enough to keep some things around). > > > > For ipfw/natd, i admit that they might be fatter than what one might > > want, but then again they might be useful in case you have to access > > the outside world to grab things. What do you save by removing them ? > > I think this is an excellent point. David, can you provide actual numbers > of how much removing each of these programs saves? Then hell, lets just totally duplicate all of /[s]bin into /rescue. Remember this is BSD, this is Unix. This isn't every other gargantuan OS. Before you call me facious, seriously ask yourself what is the purpose of /rescue. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 09:13:21 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E88637B401; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harmony.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4617343F3F; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:13:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h6HGDBFL006879; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:13:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:13:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20030717.101306.97372251.imp@bsdimp.com> To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, obrien@freebsd.org From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 2.2 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:13:21 -0000 In message: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> "David O'Brien" writes: : - domainname, one does not need YP in the circumstances /rescue is meant : to address. I'd agree of its marginality. : - date, one can use a watch if they really want to know it is 5am and : their system is down. Setting the time/date can be important at times, so keeping this would be good. : - sleep, this is what the admin wishes he was doing at 5am rather than : trying to recover a borked system. The admin doesn't need the OS : sleeping and delaying the repair. agreed. : - adjkerntz, who cares if the date is wrong if you right to the FS (and : you are on a PC and have Winloose on it also). At the least this : should only be installed on i386. agreed, since this is needed only at the DST transitions. : - comcontrol, I can't begin to imagine why one would need this to fix : a borked /. agreed. : - conscontrol, I can't begin to imagine why one would need this to fix : a borked /. agreed. : - growfs, how would growing / fix a borked /lib?? this could be useful, but it is definitely at the margin. : - ipfw & natd & ipf & ipfs & ipfstat & ipmon & ipnan, why would one needs : these? /rescue is to fix a borked /, not replace PicoBSD. agreed. : - nfsiod, to quote "It improves performance but is not required for : correct operation." Recovering a borked / doesn't need to be high : performance. agreed. : - quotacheck, does one really want to enforce quota's on root, while he : is trying direly to fix a borked /?? could be useful to repair borked quotas on /, but it is at the margins. : - shutdown, 'reboot' is sufficient when single user -- there are no other : users on the system inform of the impending shutdown. agreed. : - swapon, this is not needed to fix a whacked out /lib.... unless we add : Emacs to /resuce. This is also marginal, but might be needed. : - wall, when single user (as one needs to be to fix a broked /) who is : one going to communicate with?? agreed. : - tar, pax (w/{bz,g}zip) can do everything GNU tar can. agreed, but there should be links to it. Basically, all the ones I marked as marginal are small enough to include w/o a large impact. A quick ls suggests that they would only add about 32k to the image, which seems reasonable. the others, well, we can save the space. Warner From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 09:13:24 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF97337B404 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inet-mail1.oracle.com (inet-mail1.oracle.com [148.87.2.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4899A43F85 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:13:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Mariano.Frasisti@oracle.com) Received: from rgmgw6.us.oracle.com (rgmgw6.us.oracle.com [138.1.191.15]) h6HGDMqI010068; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rgmgw6.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h6HGDMl04927; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:13:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oracle.com (dhcp-ca-mississauga-144-23-222-77.ca.oracle.com [144.23.222.77])h6HGDLl04902; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:13:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F16CCD6.7188FE1B@oracle.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:20:38 -0400 From: Mariano Frasisti Organization: Oracle Corporation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stephenm@bayarea.net, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Sean's Friend X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:13:25 -0000 Stephen, Could you forward my email to Sean? Thanks, Mariano -- Mariano Frasisti Oracle Direct Business Development Consultant 905-501-5442 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 09:14:08 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 664) id 8208137B401; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:14:08 -0700 From: David O'Brien To: Alexander Leidinger Message-ID: <20030717091408.A89570@hub.freebsd.org> References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030717115754.488e9909.Alexander@Leidinger.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030717115754.488e9909.Alexander@Leidinger.net>; from Alexander@Leidinger.net on Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 11:57:54AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.8-RC Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:14:08 -0000 On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 11:57:54AM +0200, Alexander Leidinger wrote: > > - swapon, this is not needed to fix a whacked out /lib.... unless we add > > Emacs to /resuce. > > I can't come up with a scenario for this, but this doesn't mean there > isn't one. Do you have a stronger reason than "I don't know how this > could be useful"? Hmmm... perhaps mounting a mfs disk, untaring > something to it, searching for the right files... whatever, I think we > should keep it in /rescue, but I will be quiet if someone removes it. You might have a real point there. If one cannot create memory disks w/o swapon, /rescue/mdmfs needs to learn about this and do the swapon calls. I wonder how many people would remember to 'swapon' before using 'mdmfs'. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 09:17:01 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00E5837B401; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xorpc.icir.org (xorpc.icir.org [192.150.187.68]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59B2043F93; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:17:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rizzo@xorpc.icir.org) Received: from xorpc.icir.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xorpc.icir.org (8.12.8p1/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h6HGH0kN002399; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:17:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rizzo@xorpc.icir.org) Received: (from rizzo@localhost) by xorpc.icir.org (8.12.8p1/8.12.3/Submit) id h6HGH0GS002398; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:17:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rizzo) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:17:00 -0700 From: Luigi Rizzo To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20030717091700.B2145@xorpc.icir.org> References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030717033620.B51802@xorpc.icir.org> <200307170906.51902.jhb@FreeBSD.org> <20030717160942.GB46923@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030717160942.GB46923@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@freebsd.org on Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 09:09:42AM -0700 Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:17:01 -0000 On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 09:09:42AM -0700, David O'Brien wrote: ... > > I think this is an excellent point. David, can you provide actual numbers > > of how much removing each of these programs saves? > > Then hell, lets just totally duplicate all of /[s]bin into /rescue. > Remember this is BSD, this is Unix. This isn't every other gargantuan > OS. Before you call me facious, seriously ask yourself what is the > purpose of /rescue. whatever it is, certainly the purpose is not to show how good a sysadmin is in using a knife's blade as a screwdriver and a fork and a spoon. Heck, even swiss army knives have these extra tools. I think that if something in /rescue can make the task faster and less error prone, removing it to save 10-50k of disk space would be a big mistake. cheers luigi From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 09:25:53 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0361C37B401 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05AB243F75 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:25:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (port757.uc1-esp.isdn-lan.cybercity.dk [212.242.98.245]) by phk.freebsd.dk (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6HGPnV3007742 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:25:49 GMT (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6HGPm0X007366 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:25:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:08:05 PDT." <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:25:47 +0200 Message-ID: <7365.1058459147@critter.freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:25:53 -0000 In message <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com>, "David O'Brien" writes: >This is a list of binaries that I don't feel should be part of /resuce as >it's mission is to recover/rebuild a "broken" / [due to all the binaries >being dynamic]. Is there justification for keeping them? >- date, one can use a watch if they really want to know it is 5am and > their system is down. And if people care to get correct times set on their files they would set the clock how ? >- swapon, this is not needed to fix a whacked out /lib.... unless we add > Emacs to /resuce. swapon should stay, various programs which build filesystem trees in memory can become quite hungry. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 09:41:05 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DAD437B401 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:41:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.93.134.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C3F443F93 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:41:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6HGf3ju047409; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:41:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6HGf24j047408; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:41:02 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Luigi Rizzo Message-ID: <20030717164102.GA47198@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030717033620.B51802@xorpc.icir.org> <200307170906.51902.jhb@FreeBSD.org> <20030717160942.GB46923@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030717091700.B2145@xorpc.icir.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030717091700.B2145@xorpc.icir.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.1-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD Group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:41:05 -0000 On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 09:17:00AM -0700, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > whatever it is, certainly the purpose is not to show how good > a sysadmin is in using a knife's blade as a screwdriver and a fork > and a spoon. Heck, even swiss army knives have these extra > tools. > > I think that if something in /rescue can make the task faster > and less error prone, removing it to save 10-50k of disk space > would be a big mistake. You must not have seen my other email that listed other things than just disk space. If I did need to get to the Internet to get bits, what does ipfw do for me that "sysctl net.inet.ip.fw.enable=0" doesn't? If I'm repairing /, I'm not running services for someone to break into -- not to mention your system is so FUBAR if you're repairing /, maybe the attacker would take pity on you and fix things for you (for the simple price of storing some juarez for him). ;-) -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 09:42:41 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C6D37B404 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.93.134.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19DDB43F85 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:42:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6HGgcju047432; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:42:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6HGgcw1047431; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:42:37 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20030717164237.GB47198@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> <7365.1058459147@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7365.1058459147@critter.freebsd.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.1-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD Group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:42:41 -0000 On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 06:25:47PM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >- swapon, this is not needed to fix a whacked out /lib.... unless we add > > Emacs to /resuce. > > swapon should stay, various programs which build filesystem trees > in memory can become quite hungry. Does 'swapon' need to be run first in order for 'mdmfs' to work? I suspect so; but want to know for sure. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 09:45:02 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0317537B401; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB96E43F75; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:45:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (port757.uc1-esp.isdn-lan.cybercity.dk [212.242.98.245]) by phk.freebsd.dk (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6HGixV3008003; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:44:59 GMT (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6HGiw0X007698; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:44:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: obrien@freebsd.org From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:42:37 PDT." <20030717164237.GB47198@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:44:58 +0200 Message-ID: <7697.1058460298@critter.freebsd.dk> cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:45:02 -0000 In message <20030717164237.GB47198@dragon.nuxi.com>, "David O'Brien" writes: >On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 06:25:47PM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> >- swapon, this is not needed to fix a whacked out /lib.... unless we add >> > Emacs to /resuce. >> >> swapon should stay, various programs which build filesystem trees >> in memory can become quite hungry. > >Does 'swapon' need to be run first in order for 'mdmfs' to work? I >suspect so; but want to know for sure. Depends which backing you want for you md(4) device. It's only necessary for "swap" backing, "malloc" and "vnode" backing does not need it. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 10:10:36 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA09337B401; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.175]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF4C743FB1; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:10:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (port757.uc1-esp.isdn-lan.cybercity.dk [212.242.98.245]) by phk.freebsd.dk (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6HHALV3008358; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:10:21 GMT (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6HHAI0X008012; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 19:10:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@phk.freebsd.dk) To: David Schultz From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:00:24 PDT." <20030714170024.GA27936@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 19:10:18 +0200 Message-ID: <8011.1058461818@critter.freebsd.dk> cc: arch@FreeBSD.org cc: Luoqi Chen cc: John De Boskey Subject: Re: swap partition > 4G X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:10:37 -0000 In message <20030714170024.GA27936@HAL9000.homeunix.com>, David Schultz writes: >As far as moving the responsibility for striping swap to ccd(4) is >concerned, that sounds like a step in the right direction. >However, it's a completely orthogonal issue. Fully agreed. >The ~150 bogus lines >of code that could be killed have nothing to do with the size >limitation. Also note that ccd(4) can't fix all of the bogosity. >For instance, you're still stuck with static striping, and you >have to pretend that (MAXDEVS - curdevs) packs are full. First of all, there is little point in striping things the way it is done today, it would probably be equally efficient, if not more so (due to larger chunks being possible), to concatenate the swapon'ed devices and allocate from the in a round-robin or even, now that we have the statistics supporting such decisions, based on disk-busyness. >I think >it would be even cooler if a more general and complementary >interface to ccd(4) were developed that provided a generic way of >allocating and deallocating virtually-addressed disk blocks from a >pool of storage, but I don't have the code for it. :-P It's called FFS, and we don't want it for swap, in particular we want something which does not need a lot of RAM _or_ disk reads to figure out which bits are busy and which are not. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 10:22:04 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD87637B422 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.218]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B0743FA3 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:22:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38ldsn5.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.242.229] helo=mindspring.com) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19dCS8-0007g5-00 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:22:01 -0700 Message-ID: <3F16DAFA.41E237F8@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:20:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a492096be8fd547d5145823d8c3419de4aa2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:22:05 -0000 David O'Brien wrote: > - tar, pax (w/{bz,g}zip) can do everything GNU tar can. I agree with everything but this one. Neither of these things can make sparse files. The reason that this is important is that you might boot /rescue in a last attempt to move data off a dying hard disk to another machine. Even if the disk is merely totally hosed and is going to be reformatted, the ability ro dump its entire contents to a remote system with a similarly (or smaller) sized disk is useful. -- Terry From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 10:53:52 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C39F837B401 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shrike.submonkey.net (pc1-cdif2-5-cust38.cdif.cable.ntl.com [81.101.150.38]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17F1B43F85 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:53:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from setantae@submonkey.net) Received: from setantae by shrike.submonkey.net with local (Exim 4.20) id 19dCwr-000P0t-Hx; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:53:45 +0100 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:53:45 +0100 From: Ceri Davies To: David O'Brien Message-ID: <20030717175345.GV403@submonkey.net> Mail-Followup-To: Ceri Davies , David O'Brien , Alexander Leidinger References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030717115754.488e9909.Alexander@Leidinger.net> <20030717091408.A89570@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030717091408.A89570@hub.freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: Ceri Davies cc: Alexander Leidinger Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:53:53 -0000 On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 09:14:08AM -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 11:57:54AM +0200, Alexander Leidinger wrote: > > > - swapon, this is not needed to fix a whacked out /lib.... unless we add > > > Emacs to /resuce. > > > > I can't come up with a scenario for this, but this doesn't mean there > > isn't one. Do you have a stronger reason than "I don't know how this > > could be useful"? Hmmm... perhaps mounting a mfs disk, untaring > > something to it, searching for the right files... whatever, I think we > > should keep it in /rescue, but I will be quiet if someone removes it. > > You might have a real point there. If one cannot create memory disks w/o > swapon, /rescue/mdmfs needs to learn about this and do the swapon calls. > I wonder how many people would remember to 'swapon' before using 'mdmfs'. As a matter of fact, this bites me every time I boot into single user and run "mount -a -t nonfs". It's simple enough to remember once that fails, but for people who are panicing and haven't seen the error before, it's unlikely to help. Ceri -- User: DO YOU ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR? Iniaes: Sure, I can accept all forms of payment. -- www.chatterboxchallenge.com From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 11:18:54 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F0237B401 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (ip114.bella-vista.sfo.interquest.net [66.199.86.114]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BA4743F93 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:18:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@freebsd.org) Received: from HAL9000.homeunix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6HIITLv048849; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:18:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@freebsd.org) Received: (from das@localhost) by HAL9000.homeunix.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6HIISiU048848; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:18:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from das@freebsd.org) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:18:28 -0700 From: David Schultz To: Poul-Henning Kamp Message-ID: <20030717181828.GA48738@HAL9000.homeunix.com> Mail-Followup-To: Poul-Henning Kamp , arch@freebsd.org, Luoqi Chen , John De Boskey References: <20030714170024.GA27936@HAL9000.homeunix.com> <8011.1058461818@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8011.1058461818@critter.freebsd.dk> cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: Luoqi Chen cc: John De Boskey Subject: Re: swap partition > 4G X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:18:54 -0000 On Thu, Jul 17, 2003, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <20030714170024.GA27936@HAL9000.homeunix.com>, David Schultz writes: > > >As far as moving the responsibility for striping swap to ccd(4) is > >concerned, that sounds like a step in the right direction. > >However, it's a completely orthogonal issue. > > Fully agreed. > > >The ~150 bogus lines > >of code that could be killed have nothing to do with the size > >limitation. Also note that ccd(4) can't fix all of the bogosity. > >For instance, you're still stuck with static striping, and you > >have to pretend that (MAXDEVS - curdevs) packs are full. > > First of all, there is little point in striping things the way it > is done today, it would probably be equally efficient, if not more > so (due to larger chunks being possible), to concatenate the swapon'ed > devices and allocate from the in a round-robin or even, now that > we have the statistics supporting such decisions, based on > disk-busyness. We will be able to do that with ccd(4)? Cool! Having a way to stripe based on disk business and add and remove space dynamically is basically what I was looking for. How would the interface work, though? I assumed you would just have the swap subsystem use one big virtual concatenated device, but that seems to limit ccd's ability to make any striping decisions dynamically, since ccd only understands read and write, not allocate and free. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 17 11:51:47 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C9BF37B401 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail8.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.208]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1586743F93 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:51:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 6904 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2003 18:51:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender )encrypted SMTP for ; 17 Jul 2003 18:51:45 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6HIpWGI026431; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:51:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.4 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20030717164102.GA47198@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:51:47 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:51:47 -0000 On 17-Jul-2003 David O'Brien wrote: > On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 09:17:00AM -0700, Luigi Rizzo wrote: >> whatever it is, certainly the purpose is not to show how good >> a sysadmin is in using a knife's blade as a screwdriver and a fork >> and a spoon. Heck, even swiss army knives have these extra >> tools. >> >> I think that if something in /rescue can make the task faster >> and less error prone, removing it to save 10-50k of disk space >> would be a big mistake. > > You must not have seen my other email that listed other things than just > disk space. If I did need to get to the Internet to get bits, what does > ipfw do for me that "sysctl net.inet.ip.fw.enable=0" doesn't? This doesn't handle ipfilter. You've conveniently ignored that point it seems. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 18 01:39:44 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AF5A37B401 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 01:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.broadpark.no (mail.broadpark.no [217.13.4.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D12FD43F75 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 01:39:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.no) Received: from smtp.des.no (37.80-203-228.nextgentel.com [80.203.228.37]) by mail.broadpark.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D147078CA1 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:39:42 +0200 (MEST) Received: by smtp.des.no (Pony Express, from userid 666) id 932B59637B; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:39:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dwp.des.no (dwp.des.no [10.0.0.4]) by smtp.des.no (Pony Express) with ESMTP id DA5369634B for ; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:39:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dwp.des.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id A08D3B822; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:39:38 +0200 (CEST) To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> From: des@des.no (Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?q?Sm=F8rgrav?=) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:39:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> (David O'Brien's message of "Thu, 17 Jul 2003 01:08:05 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.0 required=8.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_GNUS_UA version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 08:39:45 -0000 "David O'Brien" writes: > - swapon, this is not needed to fix a whacked out /lib.... unless we add > Emacs to /resuce. swapon may be required for fsck to work. DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=F8rgrav - des@des.no From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 18 07:44:42 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40B0137B401; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.omnis.com (smtp.omnis.com [216.239.128.26]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 879AE43F75; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:44:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.homeunix.net (66-91-236-204.san.rr.com [66.91.236.204]) by smtp-relay.omnis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A07FB5B67D; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:44:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr To: John Baldwin , John-Mark Gurney Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:44:38 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.2 References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030717085439.GC35337@funkthat.com> <200307170902.20004.jhb@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <200307170902.20004.jhb@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200307180744.38792.wes@softweyr.com> cc: darrenr@freebsd.org cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 14:44:42 -0000 On Thursday 17 July 2003 06:05 am, John Baldwin wrote: > On Thursday 17 July 2003 04:54 am, John-Mark Gurney wrote: > > Luigi Rizzo wrote this message on Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 01:50 -0700: > > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 01:43:33AM -0700, John-Mark Gurney wrote: > > > > David O'Brien wrote this message on Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 01:08 -0700: > > > > > - ipfw & natd & ipf & ipfs & ipfstat & ipmon & ipnan, why would > > > > > one needs these? /rescue is to fix a borked /, not replace > > > > > PicoBSD. > > > > > > > > ipfw I can see as useful. If you have a kernel that defaults to > > > > closed, and you need to access the network, then this is a > > > > problem. If we had > > > > > > actually, this is trivial to fix: > > > > > > sysctl net.inet.ip.fw.enable=0 > > > > I didn't know about this. :) > > > > My objection to removing it has been removed. :) I now support > > removing ipfw and friends (from /rescue). > > I believe that sysctl only affects ipfw, so people using ipfilter might > still need ipf if ipfilter defaults to block as well. It would seem advisable to add such a sysctl for ipfilter. Any objections, Darren? -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters wes@softweyr.com From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 18 08:10:14 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 584E837B401; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 08:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godel.mtl.distributel.net (nat.MTL.distributel.NET [66.38.181.24]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 938C643FD7; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 08:10:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmilekic@technokratis.com) Received: from godel.mtl.distributel.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h6IBEAEH028409; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:14:10 GMT (envelope-from bmilekic@technokratis.com) Received: (from bmilekic@localhost) by godel.mtl.distributel.net (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6IBEAoM028408; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:14:10 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: godel.mtl.distributel.net: bmilekic set sender to bmilekic@technokratis.com using -f Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:14:10 +0000 From: Bosko Milekic To: Wes Peters Message-ID: <20030718111410.GA28377@technokratis.com> References: <20030717080805.GA98878@dragon.nuxi.com> <20030717085439.GC35337@funkthat.com> <200307170902.20004.jhb@FreeBSD.org> <200307180744.38792.wes@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200307180744.38792.wes@softweyr.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i cc: darrenr@freebsd.org cc: arch@freebsd.org cc: John-Mark Gurney Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:10:14 -0000 On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 07:44:38AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: [...] > > I believe that sysctl only affects ipfw, so people using ipfilter might > > still need ipf if ipfilter defaults to block as well. > > It would seem advisable to add such a sysctl for ipfilter. Any > objections, Darren? How about having both ipfw and ipfilter check the same sysctl 'allow all by default' knob? -- Bosko Milekic * bmilekic@technokratis.com * bmilekic@FreeBSD.org TECHNOkRATIS Consulting Services * http://www.technokratis.com/ From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jul 18 10:07:31 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EE2537B401; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF46743F75; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:07:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fledge.watson.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6IH75ai076759; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:07:05 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from localhost (robert@localhost)h6IH741o076756; Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:07:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:07:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Bosko Milekic In-Reply-To: <20030718111410.GA28377@technokratis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: darrenr@freebsd.org cc: John-Mark Gurney cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:07:31 -0000 On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Bosko Milekic wrote: > On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 07:44:38AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > [...] > > > I believe that sysctl only affects ipfw, so people using ipfilter might > > > still need ipf if ipfilter defaults to block as well. > > > > It would seem advisable to add such a sysctl for ipfilter. Any > > objections, Darren? > > How about having both ipfw and ipfilter check the same sysctl 'allow > all by default' knob? Well, there are actually people who run with both, and you can probably fairly easily imagine scenarios where you'd want them to be independent. Also, you don't want management tools to be confused about which they're twiddling. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects robert@fledge.watson.org Network Associates Laboratories From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jul 19 10:11:39 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A4F137B401; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.93.134.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5BA243F75; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:11:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6JHBcju034685; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:11:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id h6JHBcp6034684; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:11:38 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: John Baldwin Message-ID: <20030719171138.GA86442@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20030717164102.GA47198@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.1-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD Group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Things to remove from /rescue X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.org List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:11:39 -0000 On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 02:51:47PM -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 17-Jul-2003 David O'Brien wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 09:17:00AM -0700, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > >> whatever it is, certainly the purpose is not to show how good > >> a sysadmin is in using a knife's blade as a screwdriver and a fork > >> and a spoon. Heck, even swiss army knives have these extra > >> tools. > >> > >> I think that if something in /rescue can make the task faster > >> and less error prone, removing it to save 10-50k of disk space > >> would be a big mistake. > > > > You must not have seen my other email that listed other things than just > > disk space. If I did need to get to the Internet to get bits, what does > > ipfw do for me that "sysctl net.inet.ip.fw.enable=0" doesn't? > > This doesn't handle ipfilter. You've conveniently ignored that point it > seems. No, I have little ipfilter experience so I didn't speak to it. My language explicitly mentioned ipfw so I assumed readers would understand I was only addressing ipfw in that email. From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jul 19 19:06:15 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E49BE37B404 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B5C2343F75 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:06:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from iedowse@maths.tcd.ie) Received: from walton.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 20 Jul 2003 03:06:13 +0100 (BST) To: arch@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 03:06:13 +0100 From: Ian Dowse Message-ID: <200307200306.aa17802@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> Subject: *statfs exposure of file system IDs to non-root users X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 02:06:16 -0000 In changing umount(8) to use statfs(2), I just noticed that the various *statfs calls hide the filesystem IDs from non-root users: if (suser(td)) { bcopy(sp, &sb, sizeof(sb)); sb.f_fsid.val[0] = sb.f_fsid.val[1] = 0; sp = &sb; } This was added in vfs_syscalls.c revision 1.61 (March 1997) and came from OpenBSD. I guess the reason was to hide information that gets used in NFS filehandles, but it doesn't do us any good now as you can get the real IDs from getfsstat() as a normal user. Being able to get and compare file system IDs is useful for umount, and umount can be used by non-root users when vfs.usermount is set. Is there a good reason not to delete this fsid hiding? I guess if we do want to keep the values used in NFS handles secret while still exposing useful IDs to userland, we could add a separate user-side fsid to struct mount and use that instead. The IDs for NFS need to be persistent across reboots, but the user ones don't. Note that NFS filesystems use a hidden generation number for each file too, so just knowing the filesystem ID isn't enough on its own to form a valid handle. Ian